What other Champion discs will Innova be introducing in the near future?

check their website

thanks

Dave,I have a SE TL that ive had for a year at least. it seems to have alot stiffer and durable plastic than my others .I have seen/had a light red SE TL that was given to me that has the same traits. thier was also green SE TLs that came with the red/pink ones,all having the bar stamp with dots or champaine bubbles in the letters.Someone told me that these were early CE test runs / fused plastics.Is there any truth to that and if so was it just these three colors? Any help or history would be great.thanks. p.s. i only bring up the stamp because besides a solid or rainbow stamp the only one ive seen is the bubbles,on the SEs.

chase, I believe the earliest SE TLs were an opaque red. I don't know about the hotstamps. A subsequent run had more colors, but were still opaque. When you can see through the plastic and see bubbles, that is a later run, with a different plastic formulae.

Dave, do you know where I can find a stiff Aero? I bought one and it is in that Aviar Putt and Approach type plastic. I have heard that there are some in stiffer, Big Bead Aviar type plastic. Is this true?

I don't think we have made any stiffer Aeros for a while.

how long is a while?

Hello Dave! some of the new proline firebirds are marked FB opposed to just F. Just wondering if there is a difference in the discs? Thank you for the help!

What about "first run" Valks?

SOme say they were only Red plastic?

Some say you can tell by the rings on the bottom center. But that doesn't match the color theory.

Dave, is there an good way top tell first run from latter, besdied the bubbles and such mentioned earlier?

Thans

JS

KidR, probably a year or more, except for the candy Aero. Chad, no difference. John, first run was opaque red and blueberry. The edge of the disc was pretty sharp with flash and they were pretty stiff.

Thanks Dave.But what i mean isnt bubbles in the plastic itself but the design of the innova stamp. It was just a way out thought.I do love the old SE TLs and the new pro gremlins.Still waiting on a archangel in CE .Any chance?Thanks.

chase, we made some candy Archangels. They're to be used for fundraisers of some sort. They're not as unstable as I would have liked, but they're better than the first four attempts.

Did my eyes read correctly...a candy archangel???

In my best homer simpson....Mmmmm, candy archangel...

I want one...

Haven't messed with Dave in awhile...

Candy RAMS. Just a small run of 180's would be nice. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

Candy, it's not just for breakfast anymore...

http://www.innovadiscs.com

ohhhhhhhhh man, i've been waitin for the candy archangel ever since it came out. Great work dave i can not wait to get one.

SWEET .Thanks Dave.It would make my day if you said the gremlin will live in pro plastic.

I'm with Randy on that one!!!! CANDY RAMS!!! SWEET

Candy AA ? - Fundraisers ? - Where ? - When ?

Keep your eye on this page http://www.innovadiscs.com/events/index.html for information on where to buy Candy Fundraiser discs. I will update it when new orders go out. If you have CFR discs to sell and you aren't listed, email me your tournament and contact info with discs that you have to sell.

What tournaments are carrying the Candy Archangels?

Dave, I was wondering what the lightest weight is that the Champion Monster's come in?

DC, Champion Monsters generally go down to the mid 60s, but some have made it as low as the high 50s. The lower weights are more inconsistent stability wise, so we don't run many of them. We may have corrected this with the last run, but the lower weights weren't tested.

Dave D - Is Innova ever going to make a disc or a special stamp for team member Dave Greenwell? I know he's done a lot for Innova and for disc golf locally and regionally. Of course, I could be a little partial, since I live in Louisville.
How about a Champion Condor or Stingray for him?.....
Bink

Dave, is there any reason a stamp would make a disc more stable?

Proto, a CE Condor is a possibility. Dave is one of the best Condor throwers.

cracker, the stamp itself would not change anything, but the way the stamp is applied might. There is several tons of pressure and a lot of heat involved. The plastic could be reshaped by the process.

What is up with the pro-line discs and now the champion plastic again. are these latest champion discs the same plastic as the pro-line, and what is up with the big hype about pro-line and then going back to champion...

confused plastic buyer

Dave, wouldn't a run of 10 CE Condors use up all your stock of plastic and then you'd be stuck trying to reformulate again? /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

Dave, since someone asked about Proline/Champion plastic, I was wondering about consistancy issues with this plastic. Is it better than the old CE? Do I need to stock up on the stuff I like right now? Thanks!

Rhett, they'd also cost $40 a piece... /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

***Disc pimp on***

Stock up!

***Disc pimp off***

Randy the answer is on our website. Kid Roc our consistency is better than the old CE. The stuff we are running now in the Champion plastic will still be available next year so you don't have to stock up. The five pro discs are still evolving. The latest runs of JK Aviars and Pro Rhynos are what will be available. These may not have even hit the street yet, though they were molded weeks ago. The KC Aviar and KC Roc will probably remain the same. Don't know about the Pro Whippet material yet, but it will be the Whippet X mold. We expect to add other models to this mid level line by next year.

I miss the old opaque white JK Valks. Anybody know where you can still pick some up?

They were fast, but lasted about as long as a first run KC Firebird at Cass-Benton!

Oh wait, that was the SE Valk. Never mind...

DC,

I agree about the 1st run JK valks--I thought the orange and yellow flew a little better than the whites (seemed a hair more stable), but all the opaques were sweet... I haven't liked any of the JKs since they became transparent nearly as well as the old ones.

I agree that the orange and yellow opaque JKs seemed to fly better than the white ones. OTOH, I didn't/don't like them nearly as much as the transparent CE or Proline/Champion ones.

Guess it just goes to show you can't satisfy everyone all the time. /clipart/happy.gif

Dave, what about a Proline Aero? Not Candy plastic like the CE Aeros but in the stiff, KC Roc plastic.

KC, if we were to make a Pro version Aero, it would be soft type.

Dave,

I know this won't change your plans but I would love an Aero in the stiff KC Roc/Aviar plastic.

Kirk

It is just that, in my opinion, the stiffer plastic Aeros fly so much better. They are a little bit more stable and fly a lot further. I would have a place in my bag for a softer, less stable one and a stiff, stable bad-boy!

How about a stable, softie, pro birdie?

Dave, you guys are about due for a new insanely overstable disc aren't you? What with the Speed Demon unseating the RAM and all...

I know you have it in you. The RAM ruled for years. And don't go nuts on the thin blade aspect of it either. A durable lawn dart will do. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

I know this answer ,but I'd still like to have one
of these : Candy Wippet X /msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif

ohhhhhhhh candy whippet X wow that would be sweet!

Monster X

Keep the gremlin around ,please Dave.

Mornin' Dave! $500 dollar ace pool at Sylmar, 10:00AM today. I think Cup's coming. See ya there?

Dave, I've got what looks and feels like a KC Pegasus, but it has the regular Pegasus hotstamp. I haven't thrown it yet. Do you know if some KC versions went out with the regular hotstamps?

Any plans on resurrecting the Pegasus in Pro plastic?

No clue on the hotstamp. No plans for resurrecting the Pegasus at all.

Hey Dave
Do you know if you all ever made a Black C.E. T-Bird

kelldog, I don't think so. Maybe some smoke grey.

Ok, two questions...

What on earth would a candy Condor be like? Even in old stiff CE it seems like it would...well...flop around. Maybe I just don't understand molding well enough.

I'd probably want one though. :-D

Also...by a soft pro Aero if you made one, would you mean like the floppy JK pro Aviars? That would be...interesting. I picked up a CE Aero X-out not long ago...most cash I've ever paid for a disc, at least for myself, I think (definitely before shipping, anyhow) and I love it to death. For some reason the Aviar mold has never felt comfortable in my hand.

Also...and everyone is welcome to laugh at me for asking this...any chance of a nice durable pro Polecat? I recently got a Polecat to replace my old non-thumbtrac Birdie, purely for the 1/4" space it saves in my bag really, and I have never liked any putter combination I've carried better than the CE Aero and Polecat, which is saying a lot given how much I used to love my Classic Aero and Rhyno.

And as long as I'm asking strange questions...what did the Piranha fly like, and does it just look funny in pictures or did it have a ridge around the rim vaguely similar to a thumbtrac? (If it actually WAS a Thumbtrac I'm going to feel silly.)

Bob, the Condor would be a little soft in Champion plastic, but we could use a different grade if we needed to. If we made a Pro Aero it could be out of either KC Pro or JK Pro. One would be stiff and the other soft. There is a good chance of a Champion polecat at some time. The Piranha did have a Thumtrac. If fact it had three different versions. The third version became the Thumtrac Birdie.

Hey, I'll second the Dave Greenwell Pro Line Condor. That man is a magician with that disc.

KC Pro Aero. If you ever make them, I will buy plenty of them.

Yes. KC Aero. HARD PLASTIC!

The CE Aeros out there are hard plastic. What do you guys envision being different about a KC Aero?

Rhett,

I have lots of CE Aeros (dozens). You are right they are stiff but for me they are a little slick.

I like Aeros. But I do prefer some of the older stiffer ones. I would hope that Aeros made with KC plastic would be fairly stiff.

Kirk

SPEED DEMON

Dave, you know you would have a big market for us Texas thumb rollers for those CE-type Condors!

Make the CE Roc, and let the public have them. Who gives a SHIZZLE about a condor or aero or whippet!! Give us what we want.

Smitty

They do make the CE ROC, every year.
Spend the $25.00 and get yourself one and help out a great cause while doing so.

You know it is people like you that get under my skin! What I said was "let the public have them" that does not mean go to a super tour and spend $25 bucks on one. Rick, you know that you would love to spend $15 dollars and get one. I will just throw the WASP I guess. Maybe I will go all discraft! Rick do you work for Innova? What is the "great cause", the USDGC? How about the most important "cause" my wallet!

Smitty

hey gah-TORK-ing, you don't have to go to the USDGC to buy a CE Roc. In fact, they are all gone this year so you can't buy one there except second hand.

But there is this newfangled thing out called "the internet". Sounds crazy, but you can go a place called ZoneDriven.com and buy CE Rocs early n the year. Try it next year and save some travel costs.

Hey Richardhead in SOCAL you missed the point! Why should people that want one have to pay $30 or more? What a joke! The Roc, Vicking and Starfire are all a joke! How many discs does Discraft or Gateway make that you cannot get from you local disc supplier.

That internte thing sounds kind of cool, where can I get it?

What a ****-a-doodle-do!

Gator no I do not work for Innova. I work for myself. I own a disc golf store.

Discraft also makes limited fund raising discs like this years World Championship Wasps with the Colormax stamp.

As for spending $25.00 to get one, don't have a problem with that. Actually I bought 8 of them this year. All at $25.00 a pop. I get a great disc and they get the money to support the USDGC. I am also volunteering this year at the USDGC as well as sponsoring the event. All this plus the fact that the week following will be the super tour event that we run.

Fund raising discs are just that. An oppurtunity to help a club raise funds for tournaments that they run. It's hard to get sponsorship let alone volunteers for an event. So it is for a good cause.

Not happy with the pricing? Then switch to discraft. But don't sit here and whine about a company trying to do something for the sport that will make it better. It's people like you that would rather gripe all the time than pitch in once in awhile that get under my skin.

Also having tried to sell Candy TLs as fundraisers when everybody and their brother was selling candy TLs as fundraisers, I am glad that Innova is keeping the Candy Roc as a USDGC thing only. It makes it easy for the Greatest Disc Golf Tournament to raise funds. I don't play the USDGC so none of that money has any chance of making it into my pocket, but I sure do like having a tournament of that stature and with that kind of purse in my beloved sport.

Just buy one or two a year and support the game you love.

Rhett, even if you did play the USDGC it is unlikely that any of that money has any chance of making it into your pocket. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

What you say... TRUE THAT! Then again you got one of them volunteer mindsets. The "Ask not what disc golf can do for you, but what you can do for disc golf." mindsets.

But as others have mentioned, we did create this 3 headed monster...

My only chance at qualifying would be to run a qualifier. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif


I'd like to modify my last bit of advice:

Buy one or two Candy Rocs and support the USDGC, or don't. Don't make no nevermind. $25 is a lot for a disc. $25 isn't very much to support an event if you believe in it. If you believe in the USDGC thang and you like Rocs it's a slam dunk to buy a candy Roc. If you don't believe it's no biggie if you don't buy.

I understand that teachers don't make that much money but to think that $25 is too much money for a disc is one of the lamest excuses I have ever heard.

Yes, I said lame. Now please start flaming me, I enjoy seeing how calmly I reply. Though, I would enjoy replying in person so much more.

Kirk Yoo and his Fists of Fury! /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

Has anyone heard anything about Aerobie coming out with a line of disc golf discs?

Nevermind: Aerobie DG Discs (http://www.wrightlife.com/aerobie.php)

Check out the rim on the Epic driver...doublewide! Anyone throw these yet?

I threw one with an extreme anhyzer and it did a corkscrew and landed top up. I understand if I had thrown it harder it would have done a double corkscrew. This may turn out to be the best thumber/hammer/tomahawk distance disc ever. Otherwise, it's useless.

Sweeney was telling me if you bend it up, it will fly understable. Then if you bend it down before the next throw it will fly overstable. And you can keep doing that.

> The Roc, Vicking and Starfire are all a joke! How many discs does Discraft or Gateway make that you cannot get from you local disc supplier.

You know, for a teacher, you sure have lousy grammar. Can't spell either.

Can you say Z-Storm? How about Z-Comet? Better yet, try UV Soft Challenger.

Dave D. -
I have a Champion Edition Valkyrie that is RED with a GREEN stamp, is there any chance that it is not a first run ? How do I tell if it is a first run ?

I checked out both at the Ed Memorial @ Highland springs...
Actually the driver has an "offset" underside. So it depends on your feel as to where you would want to grip this disc. It is supposed to screw with the spin to keep it going further.......

The putter(approach) can be thrown as hard as you like and it goes NO WHERE. It seems to fly for a bit and then just drop out of the air like it was shot down or something.

IMO - WORTHLESS on the course - BUT very interesting

AJ it could be either first or later. If it has a star stamp or one other that I can't recall right now, it is most likely a first run. Most were opaque red or blueberry. The blueberry were somewhat translucent and lighter weight. Most had rather sharp, flashy edges. This is before we learned to trim them.

Dave D - it just has the regular Champion Edition Valkyrie stamp in green foil, and it is the opaque red, but it is not as dark of a red as my first run CE TL. The edges are sharper that any of my other CE Valks though. Thanks for your prompt response!

Dave, did yall run any Proline Firebirds or Monsters in 150 grams?

That cart holdin' up okay for ya, Dave?

Speaking of FCDisccarts, where did you move the website to Colonel???

Kid Roc, no I can't remember much at all below the high 60s, but they are coming up again pretty soon. I'll see what I can do.

Hi Kent, yes the cart has held up well. A few months ago I modified it to include a cooler that doubles as a seat. It's not as light, but it has a cooler /msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif, and a seat /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

Very cool! /msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif

http://odsa.com/sales/fcdiscart.asp

hey dave is there any chance that you are going to make a proline gator or a candy gator?

Yes, but it's not a priority right now.

SUH-WEET!

Hey, since this is the Dave D. question thread, I have one for Dave. Are you still throwing left-handed or is your forehand back in working order? I am starting to get some funny twinges in my elbow and have begun working on the lefty throw in case it gets worse, but was wondering how it worked out for you.

Dave, Will we ever see a glo CE leopard? It would be cool to see those glo CE griffins/msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif or even pro cobras/msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

Sorry, Forgot to ask if glo cobras will ever be run again? If I need to buy 100 consider it done.

Dan, it only worked up to 250 ft. I had surgery after that for another problem and had to quit for a while. The problem with lefty for me was the grip and release part. Every time I would try to throw 300 or more. I would lift my uncoordinated wrist and the disc would fly nose up. If I could lick that problem. I would have about 300 to 350 lefty.

Dylan, glo CE Leopard could happen, glo Cobras will probably happen too. CE Cobras have already been tested and appear to be a go. Maybe a glo go too.

I am going to KC Wide Open today, so if I don't respond to anything more for five days, that's why.

Candy Cobra. Been a proponent of this idea since it started getting bantered about on this here board. Has potential to be the coolest Candy disc ever. Thanks Dave, can't wait. They'll look cool with the Evolution logo on them. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

Thanks Dave/msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif I'll have to get 5 or so of each of those!!!

Would love a Candy EL. Is that a posibility? For me, nothing is controlable as an Eagle. With the EL, I have control and speed. OK, I'll settle for a Candy 1st generation Bomb. Thanks!

Mick, we have made Candy ELs. I think the last batch were glow that became tournament fundraisers.

The new Glo Candy EL is a sweet disc. Tell your TD to order some for his next tournament.

Awesome! Thanks...

Dave, I backed up-thread and saw Lefty comments. For Lefty distance use at least one less disc in stability for same righty counterpart shot. Release with a little more Hyzer of course.

Dave are the CFR Glow eagles "EL", this is the first I've heard of this.............Ive got a bunch of them for sale to raise funds for the NY States A tier event...............

oh, oh, oh!
candy cobras!
where where where
open, open, open...

not all are ELs. Many , in fact most, are going to be the E. The ELs are very new.

Wow, EL's back in (limited) production? My eBay friends will be sad to hear that. /msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif

Although its good news for me and Justin. Bad news for everyone else in our divisions, but good for us. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

How close are we to being able to get those CFR Cobras, Dave? Do I need to get excited yet?

Mark, you can get excited, we are almost finished the run. Then, it's just hotstamping.

Color me excited!

how can you tell an 'el' from a regular ce glo eagle? is an el less stable?

Yes it is less stable and the bottom of the rim more closely resembles a Leopard, in that its flat without the little flange around the edge.

The L stands for "less stable." There is no bevel on the rim. It is flat. Similar to a leopard's bevel but the L doesn't have anything to do with Leopard. It is just a coincidence.

This also applies to TL's.

thanks. i'll have to check my glow eagles tonite...

Dave,

I've noticed that Champion Discs come in two varieties - the pearlescent and clear. There is a very distinct feel between the two plastics - the pearl is grippier, while the clear seems harder (in the heavier weights).

Do all the champion line get made in both types of plastic? I've seen Valks in the clear, but never the pearl. I've seen beasts in the pearl, but never the clear. Just wondering how all that works.

thanks,
btl.

btl, not all discs come in both types. Valks do come in pearl, soft clear in lighter weights and stiffer clear in heavier.

Pearls are the bomb, clears suuuuuuuck!

Are the new fast discs only coming out in the pearl?

I'd love to have a stiff clear Beast and Monster and Starfire......

Get a Viking

I have a few vikings - they aren't as fast as the Beast/Monster/Starfire.

btl, there are a few rare heavy stiff clear Beast/Monster/Starfires, but most heavies in this group are pearl. Light weights may be soft clear or soft pearl. As for the Viking vs the Beast/Monster/Starfire; no the Viking is not as fast, but it does seem to go as far or farther. Possibly this due to the carry and straight characteristic. Or, maybe it is the throwers I have watched. What is your experience with distance of Viking vs the other three?

Dave D:

Two questions for you.

I have several clear Candy Firebirds that take huge amounts of abuse. I have two identical pearly Beasts that seem to resent being thrown into trees (they're majorly flippy). Does the clear vs. pearly correlate with the durability of the plastic?

Also, I love the candy 11x Teebirds. These have to be the greatest drivers ever made. I previously needed an Eagle as a 'tweener disc between my f'birds and t'birds. However, these newer teebirds can handle quite a bit of snap. Unfortunately, many people I know don't care for them because they don't fly like TLs. Are you planning on reworking the mold a little? I just need to know if I should buy a stack of them anytime soon.

Thanks,
AD

Oh and I second BHG's enthusiasm for candy gators! From the Innova website it sounds like KJ wants one as well.

I have not seen any NEW Teebirds.. The latest one I have seen is the 11 Time Kc Pro's.. Is there a new Champion Teebird?? I Love the 11KC Pro T's. I would also like to know the future plans about this run because I will definately start loading up if the unspeakable happens!!

P.T Bling

PT Bling I was merely referring to the KC 11X ones.

Alan, the latest TeeBirds are supposed to be stable. The TLs, are supposed to be slightly unstable and straight flying. I don't know if that answers your question or not. The clear firebird material is probably slightly more durable than the pearly overall, but it varies, depending on the particular batch from the manufacturer. Some batches are very durable, and some are less so.

Dave,

Will there be an 11X Champion Teebird??

Dave can you name your next disc BLAMO? /msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif
I thought I d ask /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif
JB

Please!!!

PT, the signature Champion TeeBird is the 11X. We're just not numbering. KC Pro Rocs and Aviars will continue with numbers I think. 12X, 13X?

Jeff, /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

Dave D:

I understand that these 11x Teebirds are more stable than their TL counterparts. Innova makes a lot of good discs, but the distance and consistency of these t'birds rises above the rest. I just hope they stay that way (instead of becoming understable like the TLs).

Anyway, thanks for your time.

AD

Another question for Dave D:

The early edition "flat-top" JK-Pro Valkyrie was an incredible disc (the ones that were more translucent than truly opaque right around 171); it was a favorite for me for a long time. I've moved to more over-stable discs since then, but I still find that almost every beginner I know can wing the hell out of this disc, and a good many more experience players that I introduced to this disc still cling to their one driver mutterring about "my precious".

What would it take to get you to produce more of this disc: soft, grippy, flat, fast....
I'm just asking because I know 3 players locally that save money and scour e-bay for the disc (laregly to no avail). It's gotten harder to find than an early-run FX....

Daniel, we don't make them that way anymore as they were too stable for what they were intended. The Viking may fill that void for some of the people who liked that older Valk version. Also lighter flatter Firebirds have a similar flight characteristic. I am assuming you are talking about the 2nd run candy Valks.

I'd noticed the similarities in high-speed flight to lighter flat-top Firebirds, but firebirds (even light ones) seem to fade much more quickly than this particular Valk.

I'm thinking of the early JK Pro model - somewhere between a SE and CE plastic - most of which (if not all) were white and which were somewhere between transparent and opaque (cloudy, but smooth colored) in the 170-172 range (I can't speak to others because I only found the 171's and 172's). They seemed to wear in very quickly, but then were quite durable and consistant.

I just got a Viking in last night, and I've got high hopes for the disc (have not yet had a chance to throw it), but I've yet to find a plastic that had the same blend of tacky and confortable grip, consistant break-in, and long-term durability.

Does no-one else remember this disc or this plastic? Are my local friends and myself the only ones who loved it so much? How about some more feedback from the forum?

For custom runs, would you consider different plastic blends (as in, if I put in an order for a local tourney or club, would you consider molding some discs in that plastic - even a newer mold, like a viking)?

Oh ... and thanks for taking the time to reply.
It's great to see a manufacturer that really takes into account the thoughts of their customer(s).

I am not the type to get into the whole "runs" thing but...I have a purple CE Leopard that I absolutley love for turn over drives and rollers. No CE Leopard that I have ever owned has been even close to as understable as this leopard.

What run of CE Leopards was more understable then all the rest?

I can see this disc staying in my bag for the rest of my DG days, but would love to be able to find a back up.

Daniel,

The viking may be too overstable for your tastes, but I traded for one last night and it is really mean! It's 165g and will resist turning over with the best of 'em. (I consistently throw around 400'.)

Dave D--honestly, where is there a difference between the Viking and Starfire? They seem to be nearly identical, both in appearance and in flight characteristics...just curious.

I got a champion viking the other day from am worlds. I am not too impressed with it. I will be trading it to somebody hopefully in the near future. Now the starfire on the other hand...that disc I was impressed with. Fast and stable is how I would describe the starfire. It is pure money...

ok thanks Dave.. I was asking if there was a signature "Champion" series for the Teebird.. I have not seen one in person yet... I am amazed that they are not everywhere like the beast and valkyrie, eagle ect.. The only place I even found a picture of it was on the zone driven web site.. Well I am glad to see the new ones are out I will def. have to grab a couple... Thx again

P.T.

I can comment on the JK's you are talking about Daniel. They were the 1st runs. I found them in Orange and White (175g). The runs after these became clear and to me a little less stable. I haven't thrown the new runs yet since I still have some of the 1st run ones. That plastic was real nice and I found it just like the SE Teebirds that came out a while back.

They seemed like an SE/Candy blend to me. The bar-stamp SE Valks were fast, tacky, and finicky.

Daniel, the difference between the Starfire and Viking is speed and flight characteristic. Although both have generally the same flight. The Starfire is faster, a little more high speed stable, a little less carry, and more low speed fade. For a 400 ft throw, a Viking can be thrown straight ahead with a slight hyzer. The Starfire needs to be thrown flat as it needs more fairway to fly. The Starfire is at its best turned over, and the Viking is at its best in a flat cruise.

Scott, you have an unusual CE Leopard. Most CEs are not very unstable. Usually only the SE Leopards are particularly unstable.

Thanks for all the responses guys; I'm throwing older run FX's now (the opaque ones), so I'm hoping the Viking flies well for me.

Still, Dave - I was serious about the possibility of getting a run of discs with that blend of plastic: is it something you would consider?

I really wish that we could get some SE plastic back. Innova has done a good job with the new candy to be fairly similar to CE but nothing is like an SE Valk!!!!!

I am very unlucky. That is the second time one of my favorite discs is just a freak disc that can't be replaced.

Here is a link to an Ace video. The CE Leopard I am talking about was the disc thrown in the video.(my buddy grabbed it out of my bag and hit an ace with it a couple days after he had knee surgery) http://pleasureislanddiscgolf.com/hole-in-one.html

The hole in the video is 250ft downhill with no wind that day. Notice how understable it is even at the low speed that he threw it. This disc has had the same flight since it was brand new.

Fuzzy....you are just a freak, what other questions are there?

I was disappointed, first CE Leopard I tossed, wishing it was more understable....still have a red first run, hadly used, sitting in the garage.

There are some lighter taffy-style-candy (softer and grippier stuff) Leopards around that fly understable. I have some of the first runs that are hard and fly nothing like the SE Leopards I use to like. My wife and daughter each have one of the lighter tackier ones and they work well for them. Low 160s in weight, I think.

I am really liking the Viking ;)I think it's because it's just like a "NEW" 11X KC Teebird.. Go figure.. I can tell no real differences. I am sure there are slight ones, I just havn't found them yet. But anything that is that close to my TB's I am def. in on.... It looks like this will be a quick addition to my game!!

Daniel, Kid, Scott, Schmack, I would definitely run more SE if I could get hold of the plastic. We have been using it for Millennium and are running very low. It would also make a good Archangel.

Dave have you tried using recycled plastic?

Hmmm...we could send in our old tacoed discs to be recycled into any mold we want! COOL!! /msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif

now there is a good idea.....no shortage!

/msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

i like that recycled plastic idea.

Rhett, the leopard i have is CE max weight (174) and is hard plastic. I guess i'll just have to take very special care of it...lol

recycled plastic does not have good tensile strength. you guys might better let that one go...

I have an older stiff Red CE Leopard (175)that is 95% new if someone is looking for a backup. pop me an email. I won't post what i'm looking for on Dave's thread /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

The Proto run of Wizards used plastic from ground up overruns and mistamps that Gateway had lying around. It had a nice chalky texture that people seemed to like. The durability on it wasn't significantly different in my opinion.

recycled plastic can be used if it's a minor constituent of the batch, and is otherwise clean and unexposed to UV. Every time plastic is recycled, it loses some of its integrity. Old plastic that has been out in the sun for a while exposed to UV is not very good to use.

Mr Dave= since i havent bothered you lately about this how bout a good word on the gremlin? Still only in DX? These ,in my opinon ,are the best discs you have put out this year.Havent seen the Viking yet,and i love the beast.Miss the SE TL and back ups are tacoing quick.PRO GREMLINS RULE.

Dave

Big demand for CE Gremlins here in the midwest! I would also like to put my vote in for another run or five of SE TL's!!! The first runs of white ones were very good however the yellow and red ones rule! The yellow and red SE TL's seem to be more durable and stiffer, maybe a mix of SE and CE plastic? They may not last as long as the CE's but are oh so suweeeet! I don't know about everyone else but I am willing to buy them a little more often due to not being as durable. any chance?

A suggestion to Innova
Why dont you add mold and run numbering system fo all discs such as with Millenium. Since no runs seems to be like the next such a system might benifit everyone.

> A suggestion for Innova

response #1 (http://www.pdga.com/discus/messages/50/7698.html?FridayDecember2020020529pm#POST126841)

response #2 (http://www.pdga.com/discus/messages/50/4748.html?SundayMarch1020020508pm#POST64084)

Despite the variances within a run of discs, I would still love to see run numbers and/or dates (or event month-dates, like "August 03" somewhere in the stamp, since it's understandable that precise dates would be a pain).

For people who like to collect, or just wonder about things, I think it would be absolutely great.

and easy

Back to topics that haven't been beaten into the ground, Pro Gremlins please. I have had 3 aces with mine now, and I want to retire it, but can't find an exact replacement. Dave, please make more for us.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3622663835&category=20 851

That's the disc I'm talking about - that plastic. The item says "pre-ce", but it was not the standard pre-ce proline plastic. Chances to get a firebird or starfire run made with that plastic?

CE COBRA

Is the disc like the flat Cobra or more domey like the Classic Cobra?

How can we get them? (if we don't want to spend big bucks on e-bay)

noaceyet, flat Cobra and they will be available through normal channels very soon.

A.J. What weight and color are you looking for in the Pro Gremlin I have a few maybe the right one?

Thanks Dave!!! /msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif

Guess I need a new carrot... /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

Bite It!

/msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif
Forgot it

We have two new carrots Rhett. Your fave and the CE Panther. Better call before Tim leaves ......too late. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

Mike Newhouse - I need max weight Proline Gremlins 175grams. Preferably in yellow, the dark yellow if possible. Thanks!

What Rhetts fave??

dave, will the CE panther, and the CE viper?, be regular production discs, or will they be sold as CFR discs? thanks

Rhett? I thought he likes RAMs

Paul, the Candy Viper is a fundraiser and is what Rhett has wanted. It is way overstable. The Champion Panther will almost certainly be a production disc. We did preliminary testing Friday and it passed with flying colors. I will do definitive testing this weekend.

Hey Dave, how about a Champion Gator?

Candy Fundraiser Vipers? How do I go about picking up some?

CE GREMLINS,CE GREMLINS,CE GREMLINS-When will this be a common and easily filled request?

Craig, I'll give it a shot when I can, but I don't have high hopes for it. Ryan, Harold should have the Vipers in about a week. Remember, they're super overstable. Chase, we will probably have more Champion Gremlins in a month.

Get yer Candy Vipers here and support the SoCal Championship supertours!

Send me an email. $25 $5 for shipping. I have them right here in front of me. If you are a SoCal player, save yourself the shipping and find Brophy out on the course. He has the Vipers and Starfires. Support the final!

Oh, and thanks Dave! /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif I owe you another big ole hug.

Oh, and the reason I like Rams is because Metalhead Vipers cost too much to throw. /msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif

Dave, just an idea but, wouldn't 2004 USDGC Rocs be sweet in the glo CE plastic???/msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

good idea! glow ce rocs!

Dylan, that sounds like a good idea to me. I will talk to the USDGC (Harold and Jonathan). Thanks.

I'm so anxious to get my hands on a ce roc, but the weight I throw is 160 to 166. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that I will be able to support the USDGC of '04 by purchasing my first ce roc in a weight that is throwable for me /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif hint, hint

Dave
I did not get feedback on my proposal for a numbering system on discs from Innova like the one used for Millenium. That would end the confusion about to what batch my disc belongs and make comparison and advice easier.

Dave
You campared the Starfire with the Viking. You said that the Starfire is more high speed stable compared with the Viking. According to innovadiscs.com and the rating system there Innova puts the Starfire at minus 0.5 and the Viking at zero. This is a contradiction. Who is right , you or the homepage?

Mattias Ohlson, you probably didn't receive feedback because that topic has been beaten into the ground SEVERAL times, try clicking the link below your last post. I believe you'll get your answer. Please don't think of this post as a flame, simply trying to answer your question before you do get flamed by all the people tired of hearing that same question.

girlie, I assume you have asked the USDGC guys and they were out of your weight. We have made some USDGCs in mid and high sixties, but not many. We will make more, but not that many.

Mattias, the numbering system question has been answered several times in the archives. Please refer there as it is a long answer. The comparison of Starfire with Viking question....The Starfire and the Viking have similar high speed stability. The Viking could be rated at minus .5 also. The Starfire is more low speed overstable. The Viking is a pretty straight flyer for a pro. The Starfire has a stranger flight characteristic. The Starfire will hold hyzer and anhyzer pretty well. It doesn't hold flat very well. That is what the Viking does well. The Starfire is very fast it doesn't carry well on a hyzer or flat, but has very good carry on anhyzer. The Viking carries either way or flat.

I have not asked the right people, apparently! But I will track you down at the WVO to say hello and find out who the appropriate parties are /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif Thank you so much! I really appreciate being able to get to the source... 2.25 days and counting /msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif

DAVE!!!---Thank you for making my day .Gremlins in the champion plastic. super sweet!!Soon enough all the people with out access to the pro line Gs will know what ive {and many others}have been cryin about. do you think they will remain the same in the upgraded plastics? i ask because the new ce spider seems to have more dome than my first run ce spider. And on the starfire,my friend crushes his on slight hyser like a tl and it flips on rides for days.thanks again.

i doubt he will be at the WVO as he isn't registered, but you should make sure to pre-order the as soon as they allow and you'll have a good chance of getting a light one. i usually get about what i ask for.

girlie, the USDGC guys will know the release date. You can contact them e mail at innovadiscgolf.com and address Jonathan. Or call at 803 366 5028. Ask for Jonathan. They may be distributed through Zonedriven, but those numbers will get you there. That is the number for Carolina flying discs.

chase, the plastic will remain the same on the Champion Gremlin. C Spiders are made in a combination of different types of candy plastic.

I'm still hoping for a candy Condor and Polecat...teehee.

Despite how much I liked it when I got it, even I'm surprised by how useful my condor has been. Wind disc anyone? just make sure it's an edge facing the wind and not the flight plate...

I think a candy XD would be the **IT!!!! So think about Dave.

I second the candy XD! /msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif

Oh, and thanks for the CE ROC info... I believe I may have found the perfect one - TY GND! And I know where to go to place my early order next year...

Peace.

Girlie -- I am currently looking for a CE Roc in light weights as you spoke, if you found some, let me know if there are more, and what they are going for, BIG THANKS. I feel like a horses rear for ordering 5 for myself, and none for my lady. (Got one of each stamp in a case on the wall, and one in my bag.)

Oh and Dave - Candy Hard Aviar driver or Candy XD would be nice and all but I'd really like to see some more candy Aeros. Next to the CE Rocs I have, that is one of the most special, and irreplaceable discs in my bag. Thanks for producing em the first time around.

All of the discs will be run at least once, but it will take time. Probably by next spring we will have all of them except possibly hard candy Aviar driver. We do have Champion Aviar putts now. I think we may still have C-Aeros too, but I could be wrong about that. These requests are good reminders.

AJP,

girlie got hers from me, and after the one I donated to the TX States Championships Women's raffle, I don't have any more light ones left (except the one I am throwing).

AJ, i know you can get candy aeros from john biscoe to benefit the old dominion showdown. i was perusing them at the WVO and he had at least 6 or 8 of them. i was very tempted to get one to try a a straight approach disc. how do they fly?

Candy Aeros? They fly EXACTLY how you throw them. Unless you either throw the bediddly out of them (turn over) or put nothing on them at all (fade a bit).

Just watch the glide. If you're not used to it the disc might go happily sailing by two feet directly above the basket and land a rather startling distance beyond it.

as rich says i have candy aeros to benefit the old dominion showdown. also champ starfires, champ tl's, champ glo eagles and banshees, and a few ce gazelles. i will also include a (very cool) poster for the price of $25. buy 3 or more and price drops to $20.

jbiscoe2@earthlink.net

john are you playing the picnic? if so bring me an aero. i can't stand it anymore!

rich- i regret to say i will not be there. wvo was likely my only sanctioned event for the year. i will be working at loriella this sunday to prep for the showdown. i will be at the tournament at walnut creek outside of charlottesville the next saturday- the course went in last year and only has 9 permanent baskets as of yet. all 18 fairways are cut and all will be used for the tourney. $5 of each entry goes to the basket fund so there is a good cause involved. it wouldn't be THAT bad a drive from the dc area.

otherwise you'll just have to skip that wedding and come to the showdown. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

i wish, maybe i can just send money with a calvertarian to bring me back one. can you save me one?

you got it.

is the plastic used in the pro line rhyno the same as the se ones.....if not more or less stiff?

Mr. Dunnipace: Please please please make a candy Zephyr. Please. I'll even let you call it the "Erik Wilson Pro Zephyr"


Thank you very much.

T. Fluviatilis, the plastic is almost the same. It is a newer type of the same stuff.

Hey Dave, are you guys riding this Friday? I am up for a leisurely stroll. DD

DD, yes. Marshall Canyon starting at the Mills road parking lot around 3:30 pm. AKA Claremont Wilderness Park.

Dave,
what's up with those discs Made in China?
I got one of those IN-Step baskets today. Came with three discs, and on the bottom it said "Made in China". What's up with that? The patent does not protect Innova from cheap stuff entering the country?

Hey Dave--Thanks for the Viking,i have been destroying it recently{thanks Clark}and had a few questions for you,not about the gremlim,ha.Anyway how many variations are there of the eagle/leopard?My friend has a KC that he got from the lynx guy in KC in 02 and last night i saw what i beleve was a CE eagle/leopard,and it also just had a standard E on the bottom.Also how common is it to get a CE firebird that is a unlabed FX? A friend and i stumbled across a goldmine in Iowa and he bought all the back stock this included several CE firebirds some marked F some marked FX{and 3 SE TLs,flat top Valks and First run CE leopards}all of these were from the season before and he was unloading them all for no premium.Could they have come at the same time or were they releasded at differnt times?I first saw FXs and FLs{i throw}at the same time.any thoughts?Thank you.

chase, I don't know what you mean by variations of ELs. We did run a glow candy EL run within the last year. We ran Eagles as ELs in candy originally, but we switched later to the present Champion E to maintain flight consistency. We did run DX ELs once accidently. As far as the FX: we originally ran FLs, but switched to FXs again to maintain flight consistency. The first run after we switched to FXs were labeled. Subsequent runs weren't, but all have been FXs. FXs and FLs could have been around at the same time, but they were not made at the same time. FLs came first. There really is no physical thing as an FX, we just labeled it as such to differentiate from the FLs. It is really a normal F.

Mr D---okay my friend has a KC eagle[10x]that has a leopard rim and i have another friend that has a CE eagle that also appears to have a leopard rim so i guess my question is on availibility of these discs.Althogh i had seen the KC "ELs" i had never heard reference to the CE version nor the DX you talked about.Do you think youll make FLs again? It took me over a year to beat that disc in and learn its traits,now they are so rare its hard for me to throw it without the thoght of losing it so its spending its days on the wall with a half dozen SE TLs and a SE super Roc.I really did like the FLs alot.So which FXs have the stretched rims?Were they the first runs because they were labled FX? I dont know if stretched is the right word but they have a smaller dome that flatens a inch or so in from the rim and they feel more like a Discraft Xtreme[?]i think i dont throw any discraft ,but i have only seen them in lighter weights like 168-170s and have only seen a few.Thanks again for letting me pick your brain,ill save some questions for next time professor-P.S.- I spread your words like the gospel so if you got anything new coming out lemme know.Much respect.Gremlins rule.

All EL runs are relatively old except the Champion Glow EL. This means we don't have them, but they're out there somewhere. We will run the glow again. As for the FLs, they were the first two runs and the KCs which were quite flippy. After that, they were all Fs, which were called Fxs at first. Not sure if we will run them again, but it could happen. I personally liked the first run FLS. Champion Panthers and Champion Mini Aeros and Aviars are the newest stuff.

Dave,

I have a tye-dyed, USDGC-stamped CE Valkyrie (the one that was included in the player's package). I've been told by a few people that the CE Valks in the player's package from that year were all Second Run. Do you know whether or not that was the case?

As always, thank you for your reply.

Felix, sorry I don't remember them. The only tie dye USDGC I can remember was a Leopard, I think that was last year or the year before. If it was a clear tie dye, I don't think it could have been from the second run. The second run was pretty flat and stable and opaque, as I remember.

Felix, 2001 we got Dyed CE Valks, 2002 we got dyed Pro line Leopards.
The valks were 3rd or 4th run, very flippy.
Schweb

Thanks Dave,I also liked the FLs-nice long flight and a good glide at the end just like a fast TL.Thank you for the quick and full response.you the man.

Dave, sometime in the 90's there was a disc that was somewhere inbetween the Birdie and the Zephyr in diameter and it had the same Thumbtrac. I think there was only one run or so of them. Do you know what that disc is?

Dan, its the Gopher which I have 2 of.

Dan, Matt is correct, but I am not sure which version he has. Most likely, the first version as I don't recall running golf weight in the present version. The first version had a thin Thumtrac and was barely stable. The second version looks like a Zephyr or Birdie (current versions), and flies very stable.

Dave and Brian, thanks for the info. I thought the disc looked and felt too domey to be a Second Run. Oh well, good thing I didn't pay Second Run price for it. http://www.pdga.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif

Dave,
What is the deal with the L marking, some people say it stands for leopard bottom???? Do these discs have leopard bottoms? I have always thought the L only stood for less stable, but I'm constantly hearing otherwise.

Rob

Rob, the L stands for 'longer/straighter', or something like that.

Rob,

Dave has answered this question several times in the past. Your understanding is correct: the "L" stands for "less stable," not "Leopard bottom" (although once, he wrote it stood for "less stable, leopard-like"). The people who are telling you it stands for "Leopard bottom" are ignoramuses. http://www.pdga.com/discus/clipart/wink.gif

Hi Rob, Felix is correct, as usual.

Dave,
I find that my bag is ALMOST exclusively Innova these days, with one exception (I've actually got issues with that one disc, but it also serves a purpose that I can't seem to replace), and I was wondering if you might give me some feedback.
I started a thread just a few minutes ago, in the throwing techniques section about it "Alternatives to 'spike' drives"; if you could take a look, I'd greatly appreciate it.

-Daniel

Daniel, I would say the same thing Sweeb did. We have other discs like the Whippet X, Viper X, and especially the Ram X, that are more overstable, but the Firebird and the Monster are much faster. A spike shot doesn't glide much, so if you need distance with your spike shot, the Monster is our fastest overstable disc. The Firebird is our next fastest overstable disc. Second run flat Valkyries were pretty good too, but they are very hard to find.

A Champ Whippet X would be nice. I could sell off my Z Xtreme.

Hi Dave,

Part 1: 1,2 or 3?

How does one go about telling the difference between 1st run, 2nd run, etc...?
The reason I ask is because I was given a blue CE Valkyrie a few years ago and I was told it's a 1st run. To this day it's as stable as can be. Even after the beating it took during this years Pro Worlds. I would like to get another one as a backup but how would I know for sure I'm getting a 1st run or not - assuming that's even the run I'm looking for.


Part 2: Crazy or Not?

I bought 2 Stingray's a few years back during the flymart at the 2000 Pro Worlds in Michigan and recently lost them here in Toronto. They where made of a plastic between that of DX and candy. They were shinny with a pretty stiff and slippery feel and more durable then the DX plastic. The white discs came with the standard stamp in either blue or maroon. I have not been able to locate a similar disc anywhere.
I have called the Innova factory in NC and they could not recall this mold and therefore, could not point me in any direction. I've also searched around on eBay to no avail. It seems the only one who knows what disc I'm talking about is Roger Cancelor who also purchased a couple at the same time.
I hope you can provide some form of help for me.

Thanks for your time and all your sweet sailing plastic.

Motley

I once had a stingray like that and i was told it was a SE Stingray.I rolled it for awhile then it rolled away on its own.----If the "L" stands for less stable then why does it look just like a leopard rim and why is it everywhere i go and people i meet say that its a leopard rim? I think they look like leopard rims,right or wrong,so whats the difference? Just curious.thanks

motley, the first run blueberry Valks were flippy, domey, and translucent in lighter weights, but were flatter and more opaque in heavier weights (170 gms plus). All were a rich blueberry color and had sharp edges too. The Stingrays sound like SEs. There were a limited amount run as they were very difficult to run at the time. We may do a Stingray version in Champion plastic in the future. For now, it would be difficult to find any of the SEs. The closest thing we have now is the Champion Cobra.

I think the CE Cobras remind me of SE Super Rocs.A CE Stingray?That would be sweet,im tired of rollin my Beast.Well,not really.Good Mornin Dave any new news?

Good Mornin' Chase. Newest is Champion Panther.

Gentlemen, thanks for your reply.

Dave, the Valkyrie I have is 175g and is exactly as you described. So I guess the only way to tell the difference between runs is to really pay attention. There are no #'s on the disc to explain this. Is there any literature that explains what runs came out when? That would be a nice to have. A document worth buying for all disc enthusiasts.

That's too bad about the SE's. They were such a nice disc. I'm glad I know more about them. It will make my difficult job of searching and replaceing slighty easier. Perhaps I'll give the CE Cobra a try until....
WOW! a CE Stingray. That would be MOST EXCELLENT! Put me down for 10.

Thx again,
Motley

Cool - thanks for the reply.

Got another question:
Went to a guy's house last night to look at his extra discs (trying to find some of the elusive discs I like), and he showed me a number of incredible discs - apart from TWO mint purple 83-93 worlds stamped super puppies (one still in plastic), he also had an odd disc:

It was orange, shaped somewhere between a rubber putter and a stingray, and had a set of grip lines across the top like the rubber putter would. The hotstamp was something like "fortunate discs" with a chinese theme, and it was stamped San Marino on the bottom, and "Frisbee is a registered trademark of Wham-O" on the top. I could tell it was old, but what the heck was it, and is it worth anything?

Daniel, I would need a better description. We made a 91, which was like a small Stingray, a 44, which was like a Viper, a 77 and 78, which were like a Stingray and Cobra. All had flght rings. All were distributed by Discovering the World, a Wham-0 licensee in Southern California. As for its worth: I would imagine any one of those would be a collector item if it were in good shape.

Thanks, Dave.
It seemed more like an oddity to me, but I'll try to get a digital camera for it here shortly.

Have I mentioned that you rock, by the way?
I had a question about my Nike's once... and I still do. I had a question about reaper runs once too... neither were ever answered....

-Daniel