thanks dave

I believe it was the code for Sniper. The Sniper became the Gremlin and is now a Discmania disc.
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I have a Sidewinder that is marked "SN" under it, bad pen or stressed writer, who knows.

dave, i received a roc in a trade tonight from a friend of mine and was wondering if you could shed some light on it.he said its a special blend 11x kc pro roc. its gummy and kinda slick,and tacky somewhat, just like the 06 usdgc sb rocs. any idea about if its one of a kind or if there are more? thanks

There were some "soft" 11x rocs that were just DX rocs, with the wrong stamp on them.

well this one feels like sb but I've been askin other people and it seems the majority believe it's a mistamped 07 or 06 super roc. :(

I have about a dozen of those softer KC 11X Roc's. They feel to me just like the Little Wing Roc's. Not stiff enough to be SB, and still softer than the Super Roc.

I see people on eBay selling them upwards of $20.

dave, i received a roc in a trade tonight from a friend of mine and was wondering if you could shed some light on it.he said its a special blend 11x kc pro roc. its gummy and kinda slick,and tacky somewhat, just like the 06 usdgc sb rocs. any idea about if its one of a kind or if there are more? thanks

I don't really know but it could be an early Pro blend like the Pro Leopards were made out of. Just a guess. If it is the stuff I am thinking of, it has a dull haze on the surface that can be wiped off.

I have about a dozen of those softer KC 11X Roc's. They feel to me just like the Little Wing Roc's. Not stiff enough to be SB, and still softer than the Super Roc.

I see people on eBay selling them upwards of $20.

I don't think this is what Rick is referring to. There were some KC Pro 11X that were a little softer and tackier. This is a distinct material from SB. KC Pro Rocs are currently made without any of the softer tackier stuff.

I don't really know but it could be an early Pro blend like the Pro Leopards were made out of. Just a guess. If it is the stuff I am thinking of, it has a dull haze on the surface that can be wiped off.



yes it does have a haze that can be wiped off,gummy and feels like a blend of some sort. I'm guessing there's no way to determine it's worth or rarity with out you actually seeing it in person right?

dave, i received a roc in a trade tonight from a friend of mine and was wondering if you could shed some light on it.he said its a special blend 11x kc pro roc. its gummy and kinda slick,and tacky somewhat, just like the 06 usdgc sb rocs. any idea about if its one of a kind or if there are more? thanks

does it have the factory second stamp on it? I have one of those and it has the 11x roc stamp on it. It is a super roc.

There were some "soft" 11x rocs that were just DX rocs, with the wrong stamp on them.

Not True they are gummy feeling not like DX They are what people should throw in cold temps to avoid breaking their good KCs like I did to a well seasoned 10X today AAAHHHH

does it have the factory second stamp on it? I have one of those and it has the 11x roc stamp on it. It is a super roc.

Seems like he wants to believe it is a "SB" Roc (Special Blend?):
http://www.discgolfreview.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=16800

yea it has that stamp. Boo. Just a super roc eh? Yeah ray I was thinking and hopingit was. Nothin wrong with that. I just got mislead by my friend and a few other people. Dave stated it was just a blend so anyway. It's a super roc.

Well that does look like a super Roc and the markings and center mold injection spot looks like my Supers too HHHMMMM

Dave,

I don't know if anyone has asked this before but here it goes. I was wondering if Innova will ever make the Classic Roc in Champion plastic as a stock run anymore?

Hey Dave,

I have thrown the Innova Puma for a couple years now and always enjoyed the disc. I was curious if you(or someone else here) could recommend a small diameter mid with flight closest to the Puma. I don't really want to look for more Puma's since they are OOP and I am assuming Innova has no plans to ever bring it back.

Thanks for any insight anyone might have!
-Zach J

This is just a shot in the dark, but are the Ice Bowl '10 dx Rocs actually Roc+'s? They're super domey, like a San Marino, so I was curious if they were different.

the one I have doesn't seem to have the characteristics of a r+ chris. Tilted innter rim would be the first give away but mine didn't have that. Seemed like a reg rancho.I could be wrong though

has anybody thown these new Teebirds...?
are they any different in flight, I know they are suppossed to be same, just wondering if we can get any feedback.

So far I have a blue and a yellow,

The yellow was very overstable and a lot stiffer than the blue, my blue flies like a brand new clear 11x, with decent glide, and that reliable fade at the end. Fought a good headwind last night.

Dave,

I don't know if anyone has asked this before but here it goes. I was wondering if Innova will ever make the Classic Roc in Champion plastic as a stock run anymore?

Probably not. Could be in CFR though.

Hey Dave,

I have thrown the Innova Puma for a couple years now and always enjoyed the disc. I was curious if you(or someone else here) could recommend a small diameter mid with flight closest to the Puma. I don't really want to look for more Puma's since they are OOP and I am assuming Innova has no plans to ever bring it back.

Thanks for any insight anyone might have!
-Zach J

The closest, I believe, would be a Discmania GM. That was a Gremlin.

PD 1 these putters, can any body explain these putters, From what I understand there are 2 diff type PD putters>? I have heard people that Like them but I know nothing about them? can any one explain what they are? flight char? compared to a ? good for ? Whats the big deal ? I am intirested...thanks

Hey Dave, there is a debate going on DGCR on whether or not the GM is technically approved.

The not approved camp says it is not because it has gone through a name change and therefore would need new approval ala Sniper to Gremlin

The approved camp says since it is a Gremlin and has not changed the mold it should continue to be approved.

So...does it need to be re-approved?

Hey Dave, there is a debate going on DGCR on whether or not the GM is technically approved.

The not approved camp says it is not because it has gone through a name change and therefore would need new approval ala Sniper to Gremlin

The approved camp says since it is a Gremlin and has not changed the mold it should continue to be approved.

So...does it need to be re-approved?

The Gremlin has been approved for quite a while. Discmania has two names for their discs. One is a basic designation for what the disc does, and the other is the regular name. The designation for the Gremlin is GM, which stands for Greater Midrange, but the name is still Gremlin. The PD, for example is designated a power driver, but it's name is Freak.

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PD 1 these putters, can any body explain these putters, From what I understand there are 2 diff type PD putters>? I have heard people that Like them but I know nothing about them? can any one explain what they are? flight char? compared to a ? good for ? Whats the big deal ? I am intirested...thanks

???

PD very close to a beadless Aviar.

PD very close to a beadless Aviar.

A PD is closer to a Starfire. A P1 is like a beadless Aviar. A P2 is a beadless driver Aviar. Close to a JK or KC Aviar but no bead and not as over stable.
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wow, arent you throwing one of these putters dave? is the plastic good? which types of plastic?

wow, arent you throwing one of these putters dave? is the plastic good? which types of plastic?

I was throwing the P-Line P1 for a while, then I switched to the P-line P2 and threw that very happily until the Dart came out. Now I use the Star Dart. The plastic for the P1 and P2 is an R-Pro type with a lot of grip. While the P1 made an excellent putter, it didn't hold up well for driving. The P2 was a little more stable and held up very well for driving or putting. My opinion is that the P2 is the best of all the Aviar models for high speed stability, grip, and less low speed over stability. The KC and JK both drive about the same, but because they finish with more dive, they are not as straight of a putter.
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Mighty strong words.

yes, it sounds like a good putter. I still like the BB Aviar, I think its beast ya'll make, but I drive with the JK-X, im not sure why but that works best for me.

I still like the BB Aviar, I think its beast ya'll make.

Champion BB Aviars....simply the best!
Wish they were still being made!

yes, it sounds like a good putter. I still like the BB Aviar, I think its beast ya'll make, but I drive with the JK-X, im not sure why but that works best for me.

The JK is a big bead -- is there some other difference? The JK also skips less due to its grip (excepting the atypical 'hard' JK runs). I like it for drives because it is more stable into wind and the added stability also keeps it from as much gliding off course...

Dave, do you recommend straighter Aviars for putting because compensating for the low speed dive when executing a putt is more complicated and therefore more problematic?

Dave,

Are these similar to the beefy Tbirds that DGValues is selling?

http://www.discgolfcenter.com/main_displayProduct.php?p=533&PPQT1=267

What makes them "plus" and what differences in can we expect in flight? More overstable?

The JK is a big bead -- is there some other difference? The JK also skips less due to its grip (excepting the atypical 'hard' JK runs). I like it for drives because it is more stable into wind and the added stability also keeps it from as much gliding off course...

Dave, do you recommend straighter Aviars for putting because compensating for the low speed dive when executing a putt is more complicated and therefore more problematic?

yes I agree I drive with the JK-X cause they are more stable and can handle my driving arm , and fade very predictable. , I put with the DX BB cause they fly straiter and glide better so putts go straiter.

The JK is a big bead -- is there some other difference? The JK also skips less due to its grip (excepting the atypical 'hard' JK runs). I like it for drives because it is more stable into wind and the added stability also keeps it from as much gliding off course...

Dave, do you recommend straighter Aviars for putting because compensating for the low speed dive when executing a putt is more complicated and therefore more problematic?

Yes, and the potential for rolling away on hill sides.

Dave,

Are these similar to the beefy Tbirds that DGValues is selling?

http://www.discgolfcenter.com/main_displayProduct.php?p=533&PPQT1=267

What makes them "plus" and what differences in can we expect in flight? More overstable?

Yes, same thing. There is no appreciable difference in flight as far as I can tell. The only difference is the feel in your hand. I don't like small rims, and this feels better to me. I am now carrying one of these and a Roc+too. I always wanted the performance of a TeeBird or Roc, but was not able to properly throw them, so I didn't, until now. Both discs were not comfortable for me in their original configuration. Now they both feel comfortable.

Dave, I like buying x-out discs beacuse I can get premium plastic for cheaper...bubbles in the rim or cosmetic discoloration doesn't bother me at all. I've noticed that it seems like a majority of x-outs are drivers, and I was just curious if that is because you simply make more drivers than midranges or putters, or if drivers are more prone to flaws. Regardless, it's cool that you offer them at a discounted price, it makes it a lot easier to pick up a new disc to try it out and learn it if you can save a few bucks in the process. Also, I picked up an echo star dart and absolutely love it. I haven't thrown the r-pro at all, because I wanted something durable...but I'm really digging the echo star. Are there any plans for more runs of it?

Dave, I like buying x-out discs beacuse I can get premium plastic for cheaper...bubbles in the rim or cosmetic discoloration doesn't bother me at all. I've noticed that it seems like a majority of x-outs are drivers, and I was just curious if that is because you simply make more drivers than midranges or putters, or if drivers are more prone to flaws. Regardless, it's cool that you offer them at a discounted price, it makes it a lot easier to pick up a new disc to try it out and learn it if you can save a few bucks in the process. Also, I picked up an echo star dart and absolutely love it. I haven't thrown the r-pro at all, because I wanted something durable...but I'm really digging the echo star. Are there any plans for more runs of it?

The drivers are more in demand as X outs, and generally produce more flaws because of the thick rim. Bubbles generally occur in the rim.

We will be running Echo Star Darts when we can. Hopefully, most of the time.

i grabbed a couple of the new mold star gator x-outs.does the bead make them more stable than the old mold star gators? or same as a champ gator?

the champ gators with bead are the best, the whole point of the gator for me is the crazy overstability for windy up shots, so i didnt like the star, cause they would flip over. im interested to knwo if these new star with bead are like champ gators??

Dave, how would you compare the OLF to the CD? also are there any innova discs that are similar to the OLF?

the champ gators with bead are the best, the whole point of the gator for me is the crazy overstability for windy up shots, so i didnt like the star, cause they would flip over. im interested to knwo if these new star with bead are like champ gators??

I asked this once and the bead on the gator does help it be more stable but the new mold gator x has a different mold than the orginal champ gator and has blunter nose that makes it more stable than the old.

so new star gator is / will be most overstable gator to date???
if so im all about it, and will buy them asap...when where release???

The Asia Open Gators where the Champion GAtors with a Bead. I was unaware they had change the Gator til I pick up a Star one about 6 months ago. I was like why would you change that disc. I hate how Innova has a good thing going and they change it Stop making it ETC. Bring back the Champ Gator Regular Champion Plastic with the Bead. Someone at my Local course says to me what should I replace my flippy Gator with. I looked at him like he was speaking french. I said "Flippy Gator what? Sure your not throwing a spider?" I've had the same Gator in my bag for 3 years and it still overstable.
Make the Champ Classic Roc again Please.

WHy Dave Why does this happen? If you have a good disc why retool it? Why not make a new disc?

Dave, how would you compare the OLF to the CD? also are there any innova discs that are similar to the OLF?

I think they compare favorably. Both have a pretty straight flight with a moderate over stable finish. The CD has a little more beef in the rim, but that is mostly a grip preference. The closest Innova disc would be a FL, Viking, or Valkyrie.

The Asia Open Gators where the Champion GAtors with a Bead. I was unaware they had change the Gator til I pick up a Star one about 6 months ago. I was like why would you change that disc. I hate how Innova has a good thing going and they change it Stop making it ETC. Bring back the Champ Gator Regular Champion Plastic with the Bead. Someone at my Local course says to me what should I replace my flippy Gator with. I looked at him like he was speaking french. I said "Flippy Gator what? Sure your not throwing a spider?" I've had the same Gator in my bag for 3 years and it still overstable.
Make the Champ Classic Roc again Please.

WHy Dave Why does this happen? If you have a good disc why retool it? Why not make a new disc?

The Gator has not been retooled. Like the Roc, there are variations. Both the beaded and unbeaded regular Gator are still in existence, as well as the beaded and unbeaded X-Gator, blunt nose.

Most of the Gator fans want a non flipping Gator. The X-Gator is the most stable. Why not make a new disc? That is a good question. The answer is we only have so much warehouse space and so much molding time. We have to pick and choose what we can do. We try to pick the discs that either sell the best, or are discs we believe are classics. If we had the resources, we would mold up all the discs we ever made to have them available.

I agree with you on this, bring back the champ classic roc!

The Gator has not been retooled. Like the Roc, there are variations. Both the beaded and unbeaded regular Gator are still in existence, as well as the beaded and unbeaded X-Gator, blunt nose.

Most of the Gator fans want a non flipping Gator. The X-Gator is the most stable. Why not make a new disc? That is a good question. The answer is we only have so much warehouse space and so much molding time. We have to pick and choose what we can do. We try to pick the discs that either sell the best, or are discs we believe are classics. If we had the resources, we would mold up all the discs we ever made to have them available.

first... love your discs...especially the gator

so the beaded and unbeaded gators, along with the beaded and unbeaded x-gator are not 4 different discs? these can be sold as different new discs. gator to remain overstable and the "flippy one" can have a new name, to rid the confusion of "which one will i get when ordering online, instead of buying in person"

One thing has been confusing for me regarding the feedback on the Star Gators. When we made the Star Gator with no bead, it was the X mold type. When we tested them, they were pretty over stable. Possibly, the lack of a bead caused them to wear more quickly and become flippy over time, but they didn't start out flippy for us at all. Also, whether a disc has a bead or not, does not dictate the flight characteristic per se. In other words, the material and molding is more of a determinant of flight characteristic than having a bead or not; especially in the case of a Gator, a Cro, or a Spider. In the past, we have had Sharks mold up more stable than Ontario Rocs. The Ontario Roc and Shark are basically differentiated by the bead.

so what gators are out at retailers now? what gators will regularly be available in the future? most gator fans i know prefer the beaded, overstable flat champs.

so what gators are out at retailers now? what gators will regularly be available in the future? most gator fans i know prefer the beaded, overstable flat champs.

We will not run beadless any more. Any Gators at retailers will be beaded, except possibly the one Star run. We will probably stick with the X beaded mold for future runs.

thanks--good to hear. we'll keep our fingers crossed for the champ version

yeah, cause now Im will not buy a gator onlince cause I dont want to get a flippy one, I need the bead X champ

I would agree with the masses that the champion plastic beaded gator is what most players want. I hope Innova announces they are making another run soon of the champ beaded gators.

Echo Star Teebirds are sick. Great job Dave.

Echo Star Teebirds are sick. Great job Dave.

Yes, yes they are.

MAn I hope these echo tbirds are as good as I hear. Been throwing glow champs for awhile. Just picked up a max weight green echo. almost recovered from a separated shoulder (ultimate is a contact sport) and ready to resume practice for the Sunshine State Shootout NT. Come down and play in the warmth

Dave,
Did Innova make a Champ. Glow Boss?

MAn I hope these echo tbirds are as good as I hear. Been throwing glow champs for awhile. Just picked up a max weight green echo. almost recovered from a separated shoulder (ultimate is a contact sport) and ready to resume practice for the Sunshine State Shootout NT. Come down and play in the warmth


IMO, the Glo Champion is the closest you can get to original CE. These Echos, for me anyways, fly like 10x KC Teebirds until the very end of thier flight, then they get beefy. I still have about 25 left, but doubt Ill have them through the month.

why is the "echo" plastic making a better disc? Its recycled plastic, is it adding glide to an already great gliding disc? is it more or less stable?
I have been real happy with the White regualr star run of Teebirds..

Chase, I figure this is still on topic-

How does the echo star TB compare to a regular star or champ? More overstable? More glide?

Also, is the glow champ TB more overstable than a regular champ TB?

Thanks

i hear that most Glow are more-overstable, not sure why, I think cause of the agent they add to disc?
but I could imagine a champ glow Tee is pretty overstable..

i have found all white Teebirds in Star are very overstable new and have lasted atleast 6 - 8months of good throwing and still over stable

Chase, I figure this is still on topic-

How does the echo star TB compare to a regular star or champ? More overstable? More glide?

Also, is the glow champ TB more overstable than a regular champ TB?

Thanks

The Echo is slightly less stable, giving it more glide. The flight line is more like a QJLS, until the end where it has some bite. On shots I wanted more distance out of I released with slight anny, and was suprised how well it took the line. Im pretty out of shape when it comes to mechanics,( havent thrown a driver since November ) and normally am a hyser release thrower- so I was actually more impressed than I can express. It just kept on going.....then bam, hyser.

Ive always thought the Glo was a little beefier, but its more in the way it ages than anything. Much like original CE or Hybrid KC Ts, they break in better and dont give up thier wind stability with age and abuse.

Last year I did a decent sized custom order with Champion Teebirds. I got a bunch of different types, some similar to the most modern release ( slightly opaque with big splashbacks visiable on the top and bottom ) and also some pearls that really remind me of the 11x KCs, but in heavier weights. These were pigs, and are actually closer to the Glos/Old CE and the more modern seemed to be a little less stable, with a flight similar to the non-hybrid KC 10x.

Star- Not much of a fan of the Stars. Had one I really liked from the first batch made, but after that, no so much. They fly similar to the Echo, but with less glide until you really beat them in, and by that time they get a little finicky.

Dave,
Did Innova make a Champ. Glow Boss?

No. Too difficult to get them down to weight.

Thanks Chase.

That is exactly what I was looking for and it confirmed that I need to get me some glow champ TBs for this summer. Thanks.

BTW glow champ TLs are also sweet. I just got ahold of some last fall. Very versatile. I have had great success with low-power shots where I would normally throw my rocs (250-300) but can't because of a low ceiling, wind, icy pads, etc. They also hold great full-power straight lines, gentle annies and gentle hyzers out to 350. I just need that added stability of the glow champ TB for predictable flights in heavier winds and when I really need to crank on it.

wow, well i have really enjoyed the star teebirds? especially the White 175 ones, they last a long time and have great glide, but i realease very flat and with anny and I thorw pretty dang hard.

wow, well i have really enjoyed the star teebirds? especially the White 175 ones, they last a long time and have great glide, but i realease very flat and with anny and I thorw pretty dang hard.

Different strokes. Im not downplaying them, if it says Teebird its a quality disc.

Dave,

Any news about up and coming products that your R & D department is working on?

LBS

P.S. Thanks for bringing back the beaded gator-x. My stock of vintage champ gator-x was getting low.

Dave, or anyone,

At what point (year?) did the Aviar transition away from the small/micro bead? I've preferred the small/micro beaded Aviar over the current no-bead and the big bead was just too stiff.

Thanks.

Dave,

Any news about up and coming products that your R & D department is working on?

LBS

P.S. Thanks for bringing back the beaded gator-x. My stock of vintage champ gator-x was getting low.

The only thing up coming right now is the M2 for Discmania.

Dave, or anyone,

At what point (year?) did the Aviar transition away from the small/micro bead? I've preferred the small/micro beaded Aviar over the current no-bead and the big bead was just too stiff.

Thanks.

That change was made a couple years ago. You can still get the small bead version from Millennium. We have other Big Bead versions of the Aviar available that are not stiff.

The only thing up coming right now is the M2 for Discmania.

Do you mean MD2, will it be less stable than the MD1?

Do you mean MD2, will it be less stable than the MD1?

Yes, MD2. This is the first version that Jussi likes. I believe the previous MD2 versions were too overstable for him. They didn't make it out of prototype stage. The MD2 is not less stable than the MD1, it is different, but the over all flight is straighter, I think. Straighter and less over stable than a Roc. I think these will only be available in Europe at first. C-Line plastic for fundraising, I believe. We have the ability to make these more or less stable in the S or C Line plastics. I don't know what Jussi will want yet.

so dave what putters ar you jammin with?
Aviars? Do you putt with the same putter you drive and up shot with?
I like to drive and upshot with the JK Aviar, and I putt with the DX BB aviar driver.

maybe i missed it on one of the other 300-some-odd pages...

how many different molds are being made in echo star plastic? other than the teebird?

Dave did you make some echo aviars for the 2009 worlds or was it a test shot run or was I dreaming any help?Thanks

so dave what putters ar you jammin with?
Aviars? Do you putt with the same putter you drive and up shot with?
I like to drive and upshot with the JK Aviar, and I putt with the DX BB aviar driver.

I now use the Star Dart for everything up to about 280ft. I used to use the JK, then I switched to the P2, but when the Dart came out, I switched.

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maybe i missed it on one of the other 300-some-odd pages...

how many different molds are being made in echo star plastic? other than the teebird?

Right now, it's sort of random and there is no official list. I would have to guess about 20.

This includes putters, mids, fairways, and distance drivers. Lately, we have been making more than in the past as we have had a more consistent supply and more demand for Echo Star.
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Dave did you make some echo aviars for the 2009 worlds or was it a test shot run or was I dreaming any help?Thanks


We have run Echo Star Aviars, but I don't remember if we made any for last years Worlds.
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hey dave, whats up with the new KC Pro Aviars, they have come out real flat (no more dome top) and look just like JK but stiffer???
is there something diff going on or .....?

hey dave, whats up with the new KC Pro Aviars, they have come out real flat (no more dome top) and look just like JK but stiffer???
is there something diff going on or .....?

I like the sounds of this more like the 11Xs? I have seen some pretty BEEFY 12s. Im not a big fan of the dome. I went threw a stack of 12Xs and some where domey and some not strange

What does BEEFY mean in a disc? Is it related to Flat or domey-toppedness? I haven't heard that used to describe a disc before.

Thanks


I like the sounds of this more like the 11Xs? I have seen some pretty BEEFY 12s. Im not a big fan of the dome. I went threw a stack of 12Xs and some where domey and some not strange

Dear Dave,


No question, just wanted to compliment Innova on the stamps I have seen on

new Echo Boss' and Wraith's. Very classy.

I guess I DO have a question.

What are the odds of a complete retool on disc stampage adopting something similar to the Echo

stamp on all product?


Harry







.

i use "beefy" to mean more overstable

What does BEEFY mean in a disc? Is it related to Flat or domey-toppedness? I haven't heard that used to describe a disc before.

Thanks

it is another term for explaining the stability of a disc in terms to another of it's kind, such as some teebirds are more beefey than others

hey dave, whats up with the new KC Pro Aviars, they have come out real flat (no more dome top) and look just like JK but stiffer???
is there something diff going on or .....?

The JK and KC molds are the same. The difference was the molding batch. Even though we use the identical named material from the manufacturer, there is always a difference between runs.

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Dear Dave,


No question, just wanted to compliment Innova on the stamps I have seen on

new Echo Boss' and Wraith's. Very classy.

I guess I DO have a question.

What are the odds of a complete retool on disc stampage adopting something similar to the Echo

stamp on all product?


Harry







.

Maybe at some point, but right now we just redid all our stamps to include the rating numbers.
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What is the Boss XG? How does it differ from an earier run Champion Boss? Thanks!

What is the Boss XG? How does it differ from an earier run Champion Boss? Thanks!

XG=Xxtra Grippy from what i've heard theyare gummy too..........

What does BEEFY mean in a disc? Is it related to Flat or domey-toppedness? I haven't heard that used to describe a disc before.

Thanks

It can mean overstable like refering to a Teebird with the Aviars I was meaning I have seen some that feel like a 10X and the flight plate feels thicker usually heavy weights. Some I have felt like 170 feel thinner flight plate JMO Im sure. You know that feel when you hold a disc it feels like you can really rip it and it hold a straight line. Hope this helps.

Dave-
being a dart thrower yourself, how did you feel that the new dx darts compared to the r-pro and star, flight-wise?

Dave-
being a dart thrower yourself, how did you feel that the new dx darts compared to the r-pro and star, flight-wise?

I haven't thrown the DX Dart much to know how it holds up over time, but I assume it starts a little over stable then loses stability over time like most DX models. That is why I switched to the Star from the R-Pro. While the R-Pro held up well for putting, it didn't hold up well enough for driving. The Star holds up for both. The Champion might be a little more stable to start than the Star, so I assume it will hold up longer, but it doesn't have the grip the Star has. If you want to drive with the Dart, I would recommend Star or Champion. If you just want to putt, DX or R-Pro are fine.

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Are the champion darts cfr, or will they be a normal production run soon? I hadn't picked up a star dart until a few days ago, and was suprised at how gummy it was compared to the eco darts.

What year did you stop making CE plastic?

Are the champion darts cfr, or will they be a normal production run soon? I hadn't picked up a star dart until a few days ago, and was suprised at how gummy it was compared to the eco darts.

The Champion Darts are scheduled for regular production, but the full run hasn't happened yet.

What year did you stop making CE plastic?

That's a collector question. We never did stop. The plastic changed from the manufacturer. It was called the same thing, but somehow they changed the formula and we stopped dealing with them eventually. Probably about 2004.

hi Dave- am going to order some bosses online. I want the most (over)stable. should i go with the 175 DF champ, or the 168 star?
thanks

Lighter Star Boss' are wicked overstable. I have a 168, and 167. More overstable than anything I've thrown in a long time!

dave, what has changed between the 3x, 4x, and 5x jk valks? my original was a 3x that was super stable and amazing in the wind. after that got stolen i got a 4x, which was ever so slightly more understable, almost negligent. i recently acquired a 5x and its way!!!! flippier. i remember some time ago something about the valks at one point having a X mold and a L mold, similar to the Eagle. just curious really if its me thats changed or the disc or a combo of both. thanks

hi Dave- am going to order some bosses online. I want the most (over)stable. should i go with the 175 DF champ, or the 168 star?
thanks

Champion is probably more consistently over stable, but some of the Starlite Bosses are way over stable. 168g might be too heavy for Starlite. I have some 165-167gm Starlites that are crazy.

dave, what has changed between the 3x, 4x, and 5x jk valks? my original was a 3x that was super stable and amazing in the wind. after that got stolen i got a 4x, which was ever so slightly more understable, almost negligent. i recently acquired a 5x and its way!!!! flippier. i remember some time ago something about the valks at one point having a X mold and a L mold, similar to the Eagle. just curious really if its me thats changed or the disc or a combo of both. thanks

The Valkyrie mold has remained the same. The material we get from the manufacturers, does change from batch to batch.

Dave,

Is there any reason why you cannot make some drivers in the current KC Pro Roc plastic? Maybe a CFR run of Teebirds? I like the KC Roc plastic because-

1. The grip is excellent. Not too grippy like dx, not too slick like champ or star.

2. How the flight pattern of the disc changes gradually over time. A dx might beat into a perfect dead-straight flight for a short period of time, but will continue beating up and turn into a roller very quickly. Champ/star doesn't beat in enough to change the flight in a reasonable period of time.

A TB in KC Roc plastic would be sweet! Please?

dave, what has changed between the 3x, 4x, and 5x jk valks? my original was a 3x that was super stable and amazing in the wind. after that got stolen i got a 4x, which was ever so slightly more understable, almost negligent. i recently acquired a 5x and its way!!!! flippier. i remember some time ago something about the valks at one point having a X mold and a L mold, similar to the Eagle. just curious really if its me thats changed or the disc or a combo of both. thanks

It's possiable when you had your frist one the 3X you where in the learning phase. Now years later you have better form more snap and faster arm speed. All that could be part of the reason you find them flippy as well. Just a thought

Hi Dave -- sorry if you have already answered this but any plans to make the Rancho Rocs in Star plastic?

Dave,

Is there any reason why you cannot make some drivers in the current KC Pro Roc plastic? Maybe a CFR run of Teebirds? I like the KC Roc plastic because-

1. The grip is excellent. Not too grippy like dx, not too slick like champ or star.

2. How the flight pattern of the disc changes gradually over time. A dx might beat into a perfect dead-straight flight for a short period of time, but will continue beating up and turn into a roller very quickly. Champ/star doesn't beat in enough to change the flight in a reasonable period of time.

A TB in KC Roc plastic would be sweet! Please?

second

A KC plastic firebird would be pretty awesome. I would love to have a mako in the KC also.

Hi Dave -- sorry if you have already answered this but any plans to make the Rancho Rocs in Star plastic?

We have several times.
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We have several times.
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Thanks -- next question: where can I buy them?

ross--i sent you a pm

great Idea about KC plastic stuff, i would love to try a teebird, mako in KC...wow sounds cool.

Yes Dave please let us know about the possibilities of the Teebird being reproduced in the KC Pro plastic. Firebird would be cool too.

Yes Dave please let us know about the possibilities of the Teebird being reproduced in the KC Pro plastic. Firebird would be cool too.

It would be easy to make TeeBirds or Firebirds in the KC Roc material. We did that for a while with the Whippet, but there wasn't much interest. I don't think there would be much interest in the Firebirds or TeeBirds either. This might not be a bad experiment to try, if and when we had time. Right now, we don't unfortunately.

What have you heard about the liking or disliking of the beefy teebird and roc?
I like the plastic and the flight of the teebird but, for me, the rim makes it difficult to get a consistant release. The disc tends to fall out early. I have thrown the teebird for years so getting used to the new mold probably isn't going to happen. Love the flight and the plastic but the feel of the mold is odd. Haven't thrown the roc.
I am curious what others think.

It would be easy to make TeeBirds or Firebirds in the KC Roc material. We did that for a while with the Whippet, but there wasn't much interest. I don't think there would be much interest in the Firebirds or TeeBirds either. This might not be a bad experiment to try, if and when we had time. Right now, we don't unfortunately.

awful

Dave,

Thanks for the response. I hope you find time soon, the demand is there!

I think that the KC plastic TB would be much more popular than the KC Whippet. Just my $.02- If I were in the market for a Whippet, I'd get a Whippet in more durable plastic like champ or star so that it would stay overstable. I think that many players feel the same.

It would be easy to make TeeBirds or Firebirds in the KC Roc material. We did that for a while with the Whippet, but there wasn't much interest. I don't think there would be much interest in the Firebirds or TeeBirds either. This might not be a bad experiment to try, if and when we had time. Right now, we don't unfortunately.

if it's even possible, what would be the minimum order required for innova to find time to press these into the schedule?

1000 tbs? 10000 tbs?

I think you would be suprised. Newer players that think their wraith is a fairway driver great for 250 foot tunnel shots might not like it but players with a little more experience would likwly jump on some KC tb or fb. They would be awesome. Thanks.

My local club has two of the 11x kc pro whippets sitting in their plastic stash...there have been several times I've thought about picking them up...just didn't know if there was any demand for them. I think a teebird made out of the kc pro plastic would be pretty sweet as well.

Dave,

Thanks for the response. I hope you find time soon, the demand is there!

I think that the KC plastic TB would be much more popular than the KC Whippet. Just my $.02- If I were in the market for a Whippet, I'd get a Whippet in more durable plastic like champ or star so that it would stay overstable. I think that many players feel the same.

if it's even possible, what would be the minimum order required for innova to find time to press these into the schedule?

1000 tbs? 10000 tbs?

We would have to believe that at least 1000 would sell, other wise it wouldn't be worth the effort to cycle in and out of the material. On the other hand, if we found a way to cycle in and out easily from R-Pro, or maybe even DX, we might be able to do it in a test run.

Transitional R-Pro/KC Pro mix Teebirds - I think I need to change my shorts!:o

It would be easy to make TeeBirds or Firebirds in the KC Roc material. We did that for a while with the Whippet, but there wasn't much interest. I don't think there would be much interest in the Firebirds or TeeBirds either. This might not be a bad experiment to try, if and when we had time. Right now, we don't unfortunately.

I have some of those whippets you mentioned and they are very strange, I never got used to them. Not sure how it would work as a teebird or firebird but they would be very brittle. Star and champion whippet gets my vote though

There are enough teebird lovers out there to warrant a run of kc pro plastic teebirds... just thinking about that ... wow would be amazing, imagine a nice seasoned KC pro teebird... !!!!

What have you heard about the liking or disliking of the beefy teebird and roc?
I like the plastic and the flight of the teebird but, for me, the rim makes it difficult to get a consistant release. The disc tends to fall out early. I have thrown the teebird for years so getting used to the new mold probably isn't going to happen. Love the flight and the plastic but the feel of the mold is odd. Haven't thrown the roc.
I am curious what others think.

There is a beefy TB mold? I just figured beefier ones were "heavy", not a different mold.

There is a beefy TB mold? I just figured beefier ones were "heavy", not a different mold.

Dave says it feels different, but doesn't fly that different Tanner. You can check out what DGR folks that purchased it think:

http://discgolfreview.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=16650

Hey Dave ,

Any Chance of a Re-make of these Sweet Rocs ?

Transitional R-Pro/KC Pro mix Teebirds - I think I need to change my shorts!:o

Mixing r pro and kc might make a dx type disc. Please don't do it.

Well... I'll start the list.

1,000 people who want KC Pro Teebirds/Firebirds back. (Bet we can get this filled within a month. If it makes a difference I'll buy 5 of them.

1. "Big" George Anthony III
2.

Dave says it feels different, but doesn't fly that different Tanner. You can check out what DGR folks that purchased it think:

http://discgolfreview.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=16650

Here's the link to buy them.

https://www.discgolfvalues.com/store/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=395

Dave,
Are these "beefy" TB+ with the CAL. engraving on the bottom the same bottom of the mold that used to be used? I noticed somewhere in the middle of the 11x Teebirds they switched from the CAL. engraving to CA. Or is this an all new idea?

Thanks in advance.

-Chris

i agree teebird lofvers are far more in demand than Whippet guys, And I would def try the KC Teebird...love the idea of a great, glide, grippy, stiff good throwing Teebird. Would love to see how it breaks in to being a money strait teebird....

Would love a KC Roc plastic TeeBird always wondered why they didn't make more disc like that. Be great Rainy day driver. I'd rather have a Eagle cause thats my go to but would love a teebird

And I would def try the KC Teebird...

sign me up for five kc teebirds.

I'd buy a ton of KC Teebirds...they'd likely become my main driver. I love Rocs, Aviars, and Whippets in that plastic.

You get my vote for KC Pro plastic Teebirds. I would love to try them. Firebirds...meh...I'd prefer some candy plastic that holds its stability for a while longer.

If the KC Pro plastic Teebirds glide like a DX there would be a HUGE market for them, assuming they beat in slower than DX. If not all of the newbies, I imagine informed buyers (especially active online participants) would be all over them.

I would buy KC Pro Teebirds and Eagle-Xs and think a lot of others would, too. It seems like the perfect balance of durability, grip, and flight for those types of discs.

I think the problem with the KC Pro Whippets is that they are mostly used by competitive players, which limits the amount that will sell right away. Combine that with the fact that these competitive players mostly want Whippets to be really overstable and stay that way, and they will be buying mostly premium plastic instead of KC Pro. I think a KC Pro Firebird would have similar shortfalls, but it is a lot more popular than the Whippet among recreational players from my experience.

Here's the link to buy them.

https://www.discgolfvalues.com/store/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=395

Dave,
Are these "beefy" TB+ with the CAL. engraving on the bottom the same bottom of the mold that used to be used? I noticed somewhere in the middle of the 11x Teebirds they switched from the CAL. engraving to CA. Or is this an all new idea?

Thanks in advance.

-Chris

This is not either of the previous bottoms, but we still use both of those and several tops too.

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yet another vote for KC teebirds. mmmmmm love me some teebirds and KC plastic.

My thought on the firebird is that it would beat in a bit slower than the teebird but in time would be money as a straight or turnover disc. I wouldn't think of it as a firebird but a teebird in training. Not sure too many people would look at it the same way though.

Dave, don't know if this was discussed earlier in the thread, but is it true that Nike has, or is at least interested in purchasing Innova and getting into the disc golf market??

Dave,
what plastics will the gremlin be made in by discmania?

could someone tell me more about the discmania plastics?
D-Line = Dx?
P-Line = Pro?
S-Line = Star?

Dave, don't know if this was discussed earlier in the thread, but is it true that Nike has, or is at least interested in purchasing Innova and getting into the disc golf market??

Not true about the purchase. No idea about the interest. None that I know of.

Dave,
what plastics will the gremlin be made in by discmania?

could someone tell me more about the discmania plastics?
D-Line = Dx?
P-Line = Pro?
S-Line = Star?

S-Line for sure as we are currently making them. Possibly D line for Europe. You have the analogy essentially correct. The recipes for each plastic are tailored to the disc according to the wishes of Discmania.

Dave, don't know if this was discussed earlier in the thread, but is it true that Nike has, or is at least interested in purchasing Innova and getting into the disc golf market??

Nike has sold plastic to Gateway several times.

Would they want to buy Innova? Does Innova have 13 year old Chinese kids making thier discs? Does Innova have a more commanding distribution market than Nike? What about brand recognition? Think Innova has them there?

The answer to all is No. At least, I think.

Would a shark from '03 have been made with champion plastic or CE/candy plastic?

Were sharks run in CE?

Hi Dave,

Im sure you have been asked this a million times, but what do you feel is the best discs you have designed? Not the best sellers, or personal favorites, but the best performing of all you have done.

Thanks!

Hi Dave,

Im sure you have been asked this a million times, but what do you feel is the best discs you have designed? Not the best sellers, or personal favorites, but the best performing of all you have done.

Thanks!

wow, that's a topic worthy of it's own thread...obviously it's different coming from the man who designed them himself, but I'm sure everybody knows their personal response and the reason why...

Hi Dave,

Im sure you have been asked this a million times, but what do you feel is the best discs you have designed? Not the best sellers, or personal favorites, but the best performing of all you have done.

Thanks!

Interesting question. Not easy to answer. The best three oldies, from my point of view were the Aero, Aviar, and original Roc. Next generation would be Shark, 180 Roc, Stingray and Cobra. Third generation would be Viper/Whippet and Gazelle. Fourth gen would be JLS,TeeBird/Eagle. Fifth gen would be Firebird, Valkyrie/Viking. The latest would probably be the Destroyer/Boss retooled Coyote and Dart.

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Yes I love the Vipers. Champ Vipers are way better than the Extremes I can hit very precision shots and skips with this disc, and it last for ever....great Disc.

When U say Aviar? do u mean P&A or AD ? BB ?

When U say Aviar? do u mean P&A or AD ? BB ?

Yes.

When U say Aviar? do u mean P&A or AD ? BB ?

I just meant the basic Aviar design which includes all Aviars. In my opinion, the best overall performer now is the P2, which is one of the Discmania Aviars.

Would a shark from '03 have been made with champion plastic or CE/candy plastic?

Were sharks run in CE?

Refer back to page 360 of this forum if my link here doesn't work...We had a little discussion about a CE Shark I own. Thanks

http://www.pdga.com/discussion/showthread.php?p=1410497#post1410497

Hope that helps!

Dave,

I keep hearing you go on and on about the P2 and your love for it, before the Dart came along... Im guessing the P2 is basically a KC with no bead?

Alright, so im interested. Im currently putting with JK X Prototypes and some super stiff 12X KC Pros depending on the weather/temp (JKs Cold / KCs Warm/Hot)

Which plastic would you recommend i buy a P2 in?

Thanks,

LBS

Hi Dave,

Im sure you have been asked this a million times, but what do you feel is the best discs you have designed? Not the best sellers, or personal favorites, but the best performing of all you have done.

Thanks!

Hey Dave,
On the other side of this question, was there ever a certain disc design that you thought would be the latest greatest disc on the market that just did not quite live up to your expectations.

Dave,

Will the Discmania P-line eventually be available to retailers here in the US?
Also, is there any chance that champion plastic will become a Discmania staple in the future? The CFR Champion PDs fly really great and I think people would like the disc to remain overstable as the S line beats in significantly faster.

DGV is the US Retailer for Discmania.

Dave,

You ever thought of putting up a Frankendisc page on the Innova website?

You know, listing the different tops and bottoms of molds that you have and which top and bottom combinations make up the different discs?

I think this would be something people would enjoy or find interesting.

Of course if something like this already exists, would someone be so nice as to share a weblink(s)

Thanks,

LBS

Interesting question. Not easy to answer. The best three oldies, from my point of view were the Aero, Aviar, and original Roc. Next generation would be Shark, 180 Roc, Stingray and Cobra. Third generation would be Viper/Whippet and Gazelle. Fourth gen would be JLS,TeeBird/Eagle. Fifth gen would be Firebird, Valkyrie/Viking. The latest would probably be the Destroyer/Boss retooled Coyote and Dart.

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Thanks. Right now Im trying to figure if its the Teebird or the QJLS. You have been responsible for more than your fair share of all time greats, including the modern model. I mean, look at this list compared to the ones others could put out.

I think the QJLS is the most underappreciated discs on the market. I think if it had an Innova stamp on it, it would outsell everything.

How close is this disc in design to the Teebird? Ive always felt they flew like broken in Teebirds with a little better long range control.

Thanks for taking the time.

DGV is the US Retailer for Discmania.

Actually, Discmania has been released to all retailers in the US. Its been this way for a month or so. However, only the S-line is available for order currently.

Actually, Discmania has been released to all retailers in the US. Its been this way for a month or so. However, only the S-line is available for order currently.

You can order it direct from Innova. I have more than the S line in stock.

You can order it direct from Innova. I have more than the S line in stock.

We tried to order them last week and all the P-lines were blacked out.

Guess I got lucky.

Dave,

I keep hearing you go on and on about the P2 and your love for it, before the Dart came along... Im guessing the P2 is basically a KC with no bead?

Alright, so im interested. Im currently putting with JK X Prototypes and some super stiff 12X KC Pros depending on the weather/temp (JKs Cold / KCs Warm/Hot)

Which plastic would you recommend i buy a P2 in?

Thanks,

LBS

I would recommend the Pro type. Similar to JK plastic but a little stiffer.

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Hey Dave,
On the other side of this question, was there ever a certain disc design that you thought would be the latest greatest disc on the market that just did not quite live up to your expectations.

There have been a few actually. First was the Aviar. When we first came out with it, no one wanted it because it didn't fly as far as an Aero or Eagle which both preceded it. The Shark was not popular for a long time. Both of these subsequently became best sellers for us.

The Python never caught on, even though it was the best disc out at the time for long drives and rolls. The rim was too big for most people at the time. That wouldn't be a factor now.

The Viking (one of my favorites) has had disappointing sales, probably due to a bad second run from a duplicate part that wasn't right. I used the original run with great success and didn't find out about the bad ones until a few years later. It's fixed now.

The Coyote has had disappointing sales for some reason, even though it is one of my favorite discs.

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Dave,

Will the Discmania P-line eventually be available to retailers here in the US?
Also, is there any chance that champion plastic will become a Discmania staple in the future? The CFR Champion PDs fly really great and I think people would like the disc to remain overstable as the S line beats in significantly faster.

Yes to both questions. The P-Line should be available soon, if it is not already. The C-Line will eventually be available, but probably not that soon as we are working on completing the other lines first. Some C-Line discs like the PD will be available through fundraising or tournament discs.

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Dave,

You ever thought of putting up a Frankendisc page on the Innova website?

You know, listing the different tops and bottoms of molds that you have and which top and bottom combinations make up the different discs?

I think this would be something people would enjoy or find interesting.

Of course if something like this already exists, would someone be so nice as to share a weblink(s)

Thanks,

LBS

Dr. Stancil Johnson's Disctionary should have it, when it is published.

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Thanks. Right now Im trying to figure if its the Teebird or the QJLS. You have been responsible for more than your fair share of all time greats, including the modern model. I mean, look at this list compared to the ones others could put out.

I think the QJLS is the most underappreciated discs on the market. I think if it had an Innova stamp on it, it would outsell everything.

How close is this disc in design to the Teebird? Ive always felt they flew like broken in Teebirds with a little better long range control.

Thanks for taking the time.

The JLS is very close in design to the TeeBird. It is very much a cross between a Leopard and a Teebird, with a flight in-between.

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The JLS is very close in design to the TeeBird. It is very much a cross between a Leopard and a Teebird, with a flight in-between.

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That makes alot of sense.

Early CE JLS/ QJLS break in to fly like longer versions of the best Leopard ever, the dayglo 2nds. The newer more Champion type fly similar to 11x or broke in Champion Teebirds, but not like TLs. They also finally end up like well seasoned Leopards, just the later more overstable versions.

They are a tough sell though. People just find it hard to believe how good discs like the JLS and Viking are.

Dr. Stancil Johnson's Disctionary should have it, when it is published.

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Do you know when he's going to publish? I know he's been collecting pictures and working on this for several years.

FYI, in earlier pages some of you had mentioned interest in Champion Glow Leopards, DiscGolfValues now has some X-outs.

Do you know when he's going to publish? I know he's been collecting pictures and working on this for several years.

I hope soon. I thought it would have already been published.

Have R pro Rhynos been run yet? Do you know how they might be super soft, semi, or simlar to the old runs of SE or Pro Line?

Thanks

Question: What are some opinions o people having better success with Either
Boss or Destroyers....for distance? control? overall better driver to throw for D and still control?

I find that I throw my destroyer for almost all D shots. windy, not windy, hyzer and strait but all long. The Boss comes in handy when Im cranking a loooong Hyzer shot that I have room to go way Hyzer, cuase it will go hyzer hard at end and usually skips hard to.
So destroyer when I dont have hyzer room to go left.

Have R pro Rhynos been run yet? Do you know how they might be super soft, semi, or simlar to the old runs of SE or Pro Line?

Thanks

I still don't know when they will be scheduled, but we have been stamping the last of the prior runs, so we will need to. When we run, we will be trying to make them as soft as is practicable.

The Viking (one of my favorites) has had disappointing sales, probably due to a bad second run from a duplicate part that wasn't right. I used the original run with great success and didn't find out about the bad ones until a few years later. It's fixed now.


wait so that means that they are back to being like the very first batch of champ vikings? i had a purple champ viking from the first batch and it was amazing. about a year later i lost it and i replaced it with a blue champ viking in the same weight. the new one was flippier and didnt have nearly as much return fade ive always really missed my original viking; great in the wind and straight as an arrow. i gifted the flippier one to a friend who i got to start playing.
also, is there a way i can tell the difference between the flawed ones and the fixed ones?

Dave, it looks like there is enough demand for the Teebird in KC Roc plastic. Will you be producing them? If so, can we get a time estimate?

Thanks!

wait so that means that they are back to being like the very first batch of champ vikings? i had a purple champ viking from the first batch and it was amazing. about a year later i lost it and i replaced it with a blue champ viking in the same weight. the new one was flippier and didnt have nearly as much return fade ive always really missed my original viking; great in the wind and straight as an arrow. i gifted the flippier one to a friend who i got to start playing.
also, is there a way i can tell the difference between the flawed ones and the fixed ones?

Yes, we are back to the originals, but no, there is no way to tell the difference just by looking. That was part of the problem. However, if you get one with the new hot stamp with the flight numbers, you will get a new one. The mold was fixed a couple of years ago.

Dave,

Has the Xd been retooled lately. It appears the newer ones coming into retailers is different from there predecessors?

If so why would you change something that so many people call home when it comes to putting?

It seems there is a missing bead, however small the older ones were, on the new ones.

Question: What are some opinions o people having better success with Either
Boss or Destroyers....for distance? control? overall better driver to throw for D and still control?

I cant get the boss to fly the way it should so i dont throw them But my destroyers are sick Have 3 Beat,Nice broken in,New They remind me of a Fast Eagle/Teebird

Yes, we are back to the originals, but no, there is no way to tell the difference just by looking. That was part of the problem. However, if you get one with the new hot stamp with the flight numbers, you will get a new one. The mold was fixed a couple of years ago.

awesome!!!! thank you

Dave, the Discmania CD has similar flight numbers to the Viking. Aside from saying that the CD has more glide than the Viking (which you can see from the rating), how would you compare the flights of these 2 discs?

Dave,

Has the Xd been retooled lately. It appears the newer ones coming into retailers is different from there predecessors?

If so why would you change something that so many people call home when it comes to putting?

It seems there is a missing bead, however small the older ones were, on the new ones.

We have gone back to the original XD without the bead, just as we did with the Aviar P&A. The old part was worn out and the small bead really didn't do anything.
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Dave, the Discmania CD has similar flight numbers to the Viking. Aside from saying that the CD has more glide than the Viking (which you can see from the rating), how would you compare the flights of these 2 discs?

I can't compare them accurately at this point as I would have to throw them side by side. They definitely do the same thing as far as use goes.
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Question: What are some opinions o people having better success with Either
Boss or Destroyers....for distance? control? overall better driver to throw for D and still control?

for me, the Destroyer works much better. I came to disc golf with a frisbee background, so I tend to throw with hyzer and have a habit to have the nose up a little too much. Star Destroyers for me will go incredibly far on total hyzer lines which makes them accuracy-friendly. They go even farther if if I dont use as much hyzer english. I use a Champ if i need more stability such as into a headwind or if i need more fade and a little less D.

If I threw with more nose down and anhyzer, the Boss might be a better fit...

in terms of power, i threw 149 meters (489 ft) air distance in the only official distance competition i've ever entered (07 Pro Worlds -- hyzer flipped Pro Orc) so it's probably not that the Boss is too much disc for me...

Dave,

Do you ever check out discs from other companies? (Lat 64, Discraft, etc...) Or do you guys have a seperate person for that? Or do you just hear stuff through the grapevine?

Dave,

I recently got a pro Katana through a trade on here. I was very surprised how well I did with it. I mainly throw stuff like Teebirds, Valks, Destroyers, Eagles, Sidewidners, Roadrunners. Nothing really over stable except Destroyer. The Katana added about 40 ft too my drive. I release at hyzer and it turns out to be a great anhyzer disc. Is that what it is aimed to do. What is the difference between the pro and champ?

Dave,

Do you ever check out discs from other companies? (Lat 64, Discraft, etc...) Or do you guys have a seperate person for that? Or do you just hear stuff through the grapevine?

Mostly just hear through the grapevine. If there is a lot of chat about something, like an Epic, and I haven't seen one, I'll look at it.

Dave,

I recently got a pro Katana through a trade on here. I was very surprised how well I did with it. I mainly throw stuff like Teebirds, Valks, Destroyers, Eagles, Sidewidners, Roadrunners. Nothing really over stable except Destroyer. The Katana added about 40 ft too my drive. I release at hyzer and it turns out to be a great anhyzer disc. Is that what it is aimed to do. What is the difference between the pro and champ?

The Katana was definitely aimed at a hyzer release. The Pro is a little flippier and has more carry than the Champion. The Star and Echo Star are in-between for these characteristics.

I would recommend the Pro type [P2]. Similar to JK plastic but a little stiffer.

Dave, i have been considering your comments on straighter putters, and as much as i have loved and stockpiled JK Aviars, i was disinclined to listen your point. But the other day on the course it really made a lot of sense. the tough putts i made seemed harder than they should have been (more variables) and the easier ones i missed made me wonder what could've been...

it is strange though that possibly the best male and female (at least in terms of career to date) both have a signature big bead Aviar they won many championships with...

while i will keep the JK Aviar for drives and headwind situations, i am going to try a new putter. The hardest thing to give up though is the buttery soft ones. Is there a Pro Aviar or P2 which you will release in super soft plastic -- or am i better off with an Omega? And -- is the Omega a small bead or a no bead? Finally, have you ever made Polecats in soft plastic, and if not would you consider so doing? I have a feeling i would really like em if they were JK soft...

thanks as always for all you do.

Dave, i have been considering your comments on straighter putters, and as much as i have loved and stockpiled JK Aviars, i was disinclined to listen your point. But the other day on the course it really made a lot of sense. the tough putts i made seemed harder than they should have been (more variables) and the easier ones i missed made me wonder what could've been...

it is strange though that possibly the best male and female (at least in terms of career to date) both have a signature big bead Aviar they won many championships with...

while i will keep the JK Aviar for drives and headwind situations, i am going to try a new putter. The hardest thing to give up though is the buttery soft ones. Is there a Pro Aviar or P2 which you will release in super soft plastic -- or am i better off with an Omega? And -- is the Omega a small bead or a no bead? Finally, have you ever made Polecats in soft plastic, and if not would you consider so doing? I have a feeling i would really like em if they were JK soft...

thanks as always for all you do.

The R-Pro comes with several putters and will eventually come with all putters including the P2. Right now the P2 plastic, while grippy is not nearly as soft as the JK. The Omega is a small bead. Depending on your putting style, you may be better off with an Omega, an R-Pro Aviar, or an R-Pro Dart. These all fly straighter at low speeds. If you're a hyzer putter or pitch putter, you should probably stick to what you have and putt with more authority. If you are a flat fly putter, you could definitely benefit from a change or make sure your JK is beat up good. We have made Polecats in soft plastic as a test run and will have R-Pro in the future. I wouldn't recommend you switch to a Polecat unless you already like the grip. It's a significant grip change.

I first made the switch to an R-Pro Aviar and was very satisfied with the putt but didn't like the drive or approach as, once broken in, it was not stable enough in the wind. Next stop was the P2. The P2 was definitely better for my style flat putting, than the JK, and was very reliable in the wind for putting or driving. When we came out with the R-Pro Dart, I couldn't not try it as the soft grippy plastic felt really good and my putting improved significantly. However, the same problem occurred with my R-Pro Dart as did with the R-Pro Aviar. It became unreliable in the wind once broken in significantly. The Star Dart solved everything for me. It was very straight and reliable in the wind and takes a long time to beat up. The grip is not as good as a brand new R-Pro, but over time, it is just as good. Once the R-Pro gets a bit dirty it loses it's high tack. Of course, if you wash it, the tack returns, but that is a pain. Star is much easier to clean with a windex wipe.

On the other hand. If your putting problem is your putting and not your putter, any change in putters could bring some improvement as it will tend to make you focus better on the new piece of plastic in your hand. With better focus on the disc in hand, you will get better results any way.

Dave...what's the concensus on making those Pro Teebirds again? I think there would be a pretty high demand for them. I mean I could understand not making them if it was a disc that didn't sell that well, but aren't teebirds one of you're most popular discs? They've got to be...they're $$$! PLEASE DAVE PLEASE!

Dave...what's the concensus on making those Pro Teebirds again? I think there would be a pretty high demand for them. I mean I could understand not making them if it was a disc that didn't sell that well, but aren't teebirds one of you're most popular discs? They've got to be...they're $$$! PLEASE DAVE PLEASE!

If you mean KC Pro type TeeBirds, we're researching it currently.

If you mean KC Pro type TeeBirds, we're researching it currently.

Good man!!!!!

Oh I mean the KC PRO TEEBIRDS!!! Step in the right direction. Hallelujah...

If you mean KC Pro type TeeBirds, we're researching it currently.

awesome!! love the idea and hope the research provides the possibility to make these! even if the idea didn't stick, I think it would be great to try out.

if they were well received, would you ever consider running other discs in the KC pro plastic, like wraiths?

so I went to throw my katana. I used the katana on 8 throws at my 1B home course. it added like 40 ft average per throw. I can say 7/8 were great shots. I threw 30 katanas 9 or 10 I can say were great shots. When I released at anhyzer it turned to a roller. If I released soft hyzer it didn't anyhyzer. If I released a hard medium height anyhyzer it went about 300 ft. If I released at high hard hyzer it went fairly well. Part was due probably to testing out different ways to throw it. So I guess my question is does it not get its max distance unless you throw it relatively high. Note most of my shots I throw are bullets. I do not put a lot of height on many of my throws. I suppose this might be a disc that needs that extra height.

Im throwing samme height as my destroyers with a champ Katana with a bit of anny and it screams and geting 45-60 more feet than my Destroyer. Champ for me wont flip even thrown with anny unless I come over on it and throw with a fairly large anny angle.

awesome!! love the idea and hope the research provides the possibility to make these! even if the idea didn't stick, I think it would be great to try out.

if they were well received, would you ever consider running other discs in the KC pro plastic, like wraiths?

We would consider running it in whatever would work.
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so I went to throw my katana. I used the katana on 8 throws at my 1B home course. it added like 40 ft average per throw. I can say 7/8 were great shots. I threw 30 katanas 9 or 10 I can say were great shots. When I released at anhyzer it turned to a roller. If I released soft hyzer it didn't anyhyzer. If I released a hard medium height anyhyzer it went about 300 ft. If I released at high hard hyzer it went fairly well. Part was due probably to testing out different ways to throw it. So I guess my question is does it not get its max distance unless you throw it relatively high. Note most of my shots I throw are bullets. I do not put a lot of height on many of my throws. I suppose this might be a disc that needs that extra height.

All discs need some amount of height to get their maximum distance, but the Katana is not special in that regard. I am not sure what type of Katana you are throwing as the Pro, Star, and Champion fly a little different from each other. The Pro has the most carry and the least hss of the three. The Champion has the least carry and the most hss. This basically means the Pro needs more room to work and that includes height. The Champion will cruise very well very close to the ground as it doesn't turn much until it crashes on low speed. The faster you throw, the more difficult it is to get unstable discs on the correct trajectory for accuracy and distance. That's why most of the big arm Pros prefer fairly stable drivers. They're much easier to predict.
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Dave, any word on when a possible course might go in at Mojave Narrows. I heard it was a prime location for another San Bernardino regional park disc golf course. I was thinking of buying a year pass to San bernardino regional parks and if this course goes in I will definitely buy it. Any feed back on this course or of a possible course in Glen Helen/Devour would be great. thanks

Dave, any word on when a possible course might go in at Mojave Narrows. I heard it was a prime location for another San Bernardino regional park disc golf course. I was thinking of buying a year pass to San bernardino regional parks and if this course goes in I will definitely buy it. Any feed back on this course or of a possible course in Glen Helen/Devour would be great. thanks

The heads of the San Bernardino county parks are very enthusiastic about getting courses in all of those parks and possibly more. The Mojave Narrows project has been temporarily set back by the loss of Pelican lake; one of the fishing spots next to where the course would go. Right now the top of the list is a full time course at Yukaipa, and Glen Helen.

We would consider running it in whatever would work.
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I for one would love a Wraith in KC Pro Plastic. Atleast it would last much longer than the proline plastic.

I for one would love a Wraith in KC Pro Plastic. Atleast it would last much longer than the proline plastic.

I highly doubt this. KC Pro is a dx type of plastic and it does not last any longer than Pro, and it would actually get cut up easier, especially in a fast disc.

Dave,

I am curious as to why the Discmania DD has "AW" printed on the back by the weight. Any insight?

Dave,

I am curious as to why the Discmania DD has "AW" printed on the back by the weight. Any insight?

It was the original code for the disc before Discmania decided it was to be called Distance Driver.

We would consider running it in whatever would work.
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wraiths should work. i'll preorder ten of each. thanks kindly.

I highly doubt this. KC Pro is a dx type of plastic and it does not last any longer than Pro, and it would actually get cut up easier, especially in a fast disc.

I agree. Personally, I dont think those discs will sell very well, but I could be wrong. The general disc golfer would probably rather buy DX than something similar for more money. So, basically, your gearing them at people that post on here or have the knowledge to even know what it is. That is a pretty small percentage of our walk-ins.

Are we all talking about the same plastic? Like what Rocs and Aviars are made of? That wont last at all in high speed drivers, especially for stability, in my opinion.

Id rather see Banshees in Star plastic, or a new heavy Super Class disc....like maybe a Zephyr-X... Hint Hint.

Any chance the Stingray will be re-run in Champion Plastic? The Star is just too stable out of the box.

I agree. Personally, I dont think those discs will sell very well, but I could be wrong. The general disc golfer would probably rather buy DX than something similar for more money. So, basically, your gearing them at people that post on here or have the knowledge to even know what it is. That is a pretty small percentage of our walk-ins.

Are we all talking about the same plastic? Like what Rocs and Aviars are made of? That wont last at all in high speed drivers, especially for stability, in my opinion.

Id rather see Banshees in Star plastic, or a new heavy Super Class disc....like maybe a Zephyr-X... Hint Hint.

Star or Champ Zephyr....[drool]

I highly doubt this. KC Pro is a dx type of plastic and it does not last any longer than Pro, and it would actually get cut up easier, especially in a fast disc.

Maybe its just me, but proline tends to beat up quicker for me. takes me a while longer to get KC Pro Rocs or Aviars beat in. :confused:

That because putters and mids don't generate the high speeds that a driver would. A Wraith in KC would beat up quicker than Pro but potentially slower than DX.

Which KC pro plastic is everyone talking about? I have some 10x and 11x that is clear and its nothing like dx, its more like old pro line champ. There is also some opaque kc 10x thats more like star

but if you mean the new kc pro rocs and aviars, i dont see how that would work for a driver

Dave, I heard that the baskets are going to be pulled anytime now in yucaipa and be put in wrightwood. Do you know if the county is planning on buying baskets for yucaipa or are they leaving it up to the club there. I know the club finaced the tee pads, but not sure what will occur with the basket situation. As for glen helen do you have any timeline for that course. I think I talked to you a month or so ago and thought you said glen helen didn't seem like a reality since someone snagged the land you and innova were considering using. Any feedback would be great. Thanks

Any chance the Stingray will be re-run in Champion Plastic? The Star is just too stable out of the box.

Probably not. But Champion or Star stability are an effect of the molding more than the material. We generally run Champion to be a little more stable than Star. Pro would be less stable out of the box and easier to beat to a significant turn. That would probably work.

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Dave, I heard that the baskets are going to be pulled anytime now in yucaipa and be put in wrightwood. Do you know if the county is planning on buying baskets for yucaipa or are they leaving it up to the club there. I know the club finaced the tee pads, but not sure what will occur with the basket situation. As for glen helen do you have any timeline for that course. I think I talked to you a month or so ago and thought you said glen helen didn't seem like a reality since someone snagged the land you and innova were considering using. Any feedback would be great. Thanks

The county is still looking to put courses in all the parks where it is feasible. The top priority right now seems to be a full time course in Yukaipa in a different part of the part from where it is now. I am not sure what the time frame is, and it will take a lot of work to make the area we are looking at playable. Glen Helen is still in the works if suitable space can be found. I don't know the time frame on that either. The good news is that the county is very positive about getting disc golf in their parks. Currently, we are still working on Prado. We have put yellow flag poles on all the blind holes and have installed two alternate positions on #1 and #7 to reduce conflict for normal play. We plan on putting several more alternates to keep play fresh. The county is planning on building a second permanent bathroom and pro shop too.

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I can see it now, my money kc pro teebird exploding on a tree. I think I'll stick with champion kc pro for now. Lets make teebirds like that instead.

I can see it now, my money kc pro teebird exploding on a tree. I think I'll stick with champion kc pro for now. Lets make teebirds like that instead.

Don't hit trees.

Star or Champ Zephyr....[drool]

Tried the Champ Zephyr, less stable than the DX, according to MArk Molnar the Star Zephyr is almost impossible to make?

Would love a Zephyr X though...., TE Moko is a bit more stable than the average Zephyr, but I looking for much more stability!

Tried the Champ Zephyr, less stable than the DX, according to MArk Molnar the Star Zephyr is almost impossible to make?

Would love a Zephyr X though...., TE Moko is a bit more stable than the average Zephyr, but I looking for much more stability!

Both the Champion and Star are very difficult to make at weight. We could possibly try a form of R-Pro that is fairly stiff. The problem with that is getting the piece out of the mold.

It would be nice if you could make them stiffer, like the previous batch before the new stamp. The newer more gummy versions dont take much of a beating at all.

Probably not. But Champion or Star stability are an effect of the molding more than the material. We generally run Champion to be a little more stable than Star. Pro would be less stable out of the box and easier to beat to a significant turn. That would probably work.

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A pro Stingray would be pretty sweet I imagine. Do it. :D

Hi Dave,

This is the Hands Aviar I was talking about that was re-issued. I guess it was sent out by Jonathon Poole. Is this something we can expect in the future, as far copying old stamps and sending them out? Do you really think that is a good idea? The one I have has a current Innova Swoosh on the bottom, so its obviously a reproduction, but Im pretty sure it wasnt advertised that way on Ebay where I bought it.

What's the status on producing the Champ Glo Leopards?

There are or were some glo champ leo x outs on dgv not to long ago.

It was the original code for the disc before Discmania decided it was to be called Distance Driver.

Were you guys calling it something that "AW" stood for? For some reason I just find this kind of trivial stuff interesting (like the Hobbit/Goblin).

i noticed something very strange today. my 175 star teerex has a dimple on the underside of the rim. i have never felt this before and ive thrown the disc nearly every round for the last 8 months. is there an explanation for this dave? ive found discs before with similar dimples but never cared to much as to why.

What's the status on producing the Champ Glo Leopards?

I believe they have already been produced. The Leopard mold is currently running Star.

Were you guys calling it something that "AW" stood for? For some reason I just find this kind of trivial stuff interesting (like the Hobbit/Goblin).

It was a code that identified the parts that made it. The top part is a cavity we call Anhyzer and the bottom part is a Wraith core.

i noticed something very strange today. my 175 star teerex has a dimple on the underside of the rim. i have never felt this before and ive thrown the disc nearly every round for the last 8 months. is there an explanation for this dave? ive found discs before with similar dimples but never cared to much as to why.

These dimples are either caused by heat sink or inadequate venting. If they are very minor, they might get by the inspection. If they are easily noticeable they are rejected. It is strictly a cosmetic problem, but they usually end up as X parts.

These dimples are either caused by heat sink or inadequate venting. If they are very minor, they might get by the inspection. If they are easily noticeable they are rejected. It is strictly a cosmetic problem, but they usually end up as X parts.

so are these still legal to play with? affect flight?

so the heat sink and/or inadequate venting is on my side of the issue?

so are these still legal to play with?

Yes X-outs are legal to play with.

affect flight?

Double check the response you quoted for the answer to this.

so the heat sink and/or inadequate venting is on my side of the issue?

I don't even understand this question, but if you're implying that you could be a cause of the issue, then no.

Dave,

I ran across this Banshee a few days ago. It's older, but I can't figure out much about it. I posted a picture of it below. Can you tell me anything about the stamp? Is it a custom stamp or a factory one, and roughly how old do you think this disc could be?

Thanks so much,

-Jordan

so are these still legal to play with? affect flight?

so the heat sink and/or inadequate venting is on my side of the issue?

In my experience (I've seen them on some pro destroyers and one echo star destroyer) they seem to make the flight more inconsistent. Oftentimes the disc will either be understable or overstable with seemingly very similar wind conditions and appreciably similar throws. I would imagine the size of the 'dimple' makes the effects more drastic.

In my experience (I've seen them on some pro destroyers and one echo star destroyer) they seem to make the flight more inconsistent. Oftentimes the disc will either be understable or overstable with seemingly very similar wind conditions and appreciably similar throws. I would imagine the size of the 'dimple' makes the effects more drastic.

I had this on a CE Eagle the X one and it was so flippy unlike all my others didn't like it. I would be looking for the Eagle flight and would get a broke in Valkyrie flight. Then other times it wouldn't flip very weird not good IMO

In my experience (I've seen them on some pro destroyers and one echo star destroyer) they seem to make the flight more inconsistent. Oftentimes the disc will either be understable or overstable with seemingly very similar wind conditions and appreciably similar throws. I would imagine the size of the 'dimple' makes the effects more drastic.

hmmm....that disc is a lil inconsistent. that stinks.... guess i have to start beating in a new teerex. this always takes so **** long. o well, i guess its fun in its own way.

Dave,

I bought a 1st run Boss off of Suzzette a couple years back when they first came out around the time of the AM So Cal Championships, and it had the most amazing glassiness to it of any clear disc I have ever seen. Unfortunately it is no longer in my possession as of about 6 months ago and I have been trying like mad to find another one with that same glassy look to it, without shelling out over 50 bucks for it. Do you know what kind of look I am trying to describe? I am an avid collector especially of clear plastic and have never seen anything like those Bosses in terms of appearance.

I even tried picking up some X-Out XG Ice Bosses from DGV a while back hoping I would see that glossiness again but they didn't have that shine.

Thanks
Alex

I think I know what you're talking about. I got some new Teebird+'s from DGV and they had the same look to the plastic that I remembered some of my 1st run bosses did.

Dave,

Has innova ever made a monarch valk? My buddy has a hotstamped disc that has MV on the back and the rim with is shot like a valk but has the groove?

If so what was the purpose for this?

Dave,

I bought a 1st run Boss off of Suzzette a couple years back when they first came out around the time of the AM So Cal Championships, and it had the most amazing glassiness to it of any clear disc I have ever seen. Unfortunately it is no longer in my possession as of about 6 months ago and I have been trying like mad to find another one with that same glassy look to it, without shelling out over 50 bucks for it. Do you know what kind of look I am trying to describe? I am an avid collector especially of clear plastic and have never seen anything like those Bosses in terms of appearance.

I even tried picking up some X-Out XG Ice Bosses from DGV a while back hoping I would see that glossiness again but they didn't have that shine.

Thanks
Alex

I remember the Bosses being run and some days they would be glassy looking and some days not. We didn't change the settings and the material was supposed to be the same from the manufacturer, but it changed. Most of the time, it ran a little cloudy, but on rare occasions it would run pretty glassy. The Tee+ is a little different. We were testing materials during the first run and some were clearer than others. The Tee+ will generally run clearer than the regular TeeBird at higher weights.

Dave,

Has innova ever made a monarch valk? My buddy has a hotstamped disc that has MV on the back and the rim with is shot like a valk but has the groove?

If so what was the purpose for this?

That was the code for the Japan 150 class Monarchs. The regular Monarch mold wouldn't make 150 class.

Hi Dave,

This is the Hands Aviar I was talking about that was re-issued. I guess it was sent out by Jonathon Poole. Is this something we can expect in the future, as far copying old stamps and sending them out? Do you really think that is a good idea? The one I have has a current Innova Swoosh on the bottom, so its obviously a reproduction, but Im pretty sure it wasnt advertised that way on Ebay where I bought it.

Along with this, any insight into the "S-TB" Teebirds that are floating around and why they would have an 11x KC Teebird stamp on them? I have some of the pre-star Teebirds that actually came out then, and they all are listed as normal " T 174" on the back. It also features a Innova Champion 12x Ken Climo stamp.

Along with this, any insight into the "S-TB" Teebirds that are floating around and why they would have an 11x KC Teebird stamp on them? I have some of the pre-star Teebirds that actually came out then, and they all are listed as normal " T 174" on the back. It also features a Innova Champion 12x Ken Climo stamp.

I haven't heard the story on the hands Aviar, but I did hear something today about some TeeBirds. I don't know the whole story yet but apparently 4 proto Star TeeBirds got put in with a box of old CE TeeBirds and were stamped along with them. I think Mark at discgolfvalues can tell you more than I can.
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Anyone happen to know anything about my Banshee stamp posted earlier?

Hi, I've bought 3 aviars in the past few months and all are marked 175g, but way 3 grams less. 1 is the new kc pro another is r pro, and another dx that feels like r pro and 2 are 171.5 and 171.8, and the other is 172. As a buyer I can't even buy a disc without weighing it first personally to insure that its the marked weight lately. Is this an issue the seller or the manufacture should deal with?

Hi, I've bought 3 aviars in the past few months and all are marked 175g, but way 3 grams less. 1 is the new kc pro another is r pro, and another dx that feels like r pro and 2 are 171.5 and 171.8, and the other is 172. As a buyer I can't even buy a disc without weighing it first personally to insure that its the marked weight lately. Is this an issue the seller or the manufacture should deal with?

This is an issue we have been dealing with for a long time. We went to digital scales thinking they would be better, but they were worse. If the exact weight is important, checking is always good. There are some shops that offer reweighing as a value added service.

So who's thrown the new Teebird +? I have got one of the Carolina Clash Glo's at max weight, and loving it.

Finding it a little less HSS stable out of the box than some of the star and 12x champs I have thrown, but just as LSS. Makes for a pretty sweet run.

Thoughts? Comments?

Hi, I've bought 3 aviars in the past few months and all are marked 175g, but way 3 grams less. 1 is the new kc pro another is r pro, and another dx that feels like r pro and 2 are 171.5 and 171.8, and the other is 172. As a buyer I can't even buy a disc without weighing it first personally to insure that its the marked weight lately. Is this an issue the seller or the manufacture should deal with?


I keep a digital scale on the counter in the shop. For the most part, Innova has gotten alot better at hitting the written weight.