lol someone has allot of time on there hands.

plethora

Why, because I really respect Dave, and value his time. I wanted to know the answer to my question and instead of asking some inane question about dents, I thought it'd be nice for him to see a picture. I know he gets asked questions by the handful, and sometimes it's hard to convey your meaning. (For the record it only took me 2 minutes)

No offence meant, I just think people should take more time in asking Dave questions, I mean he is only one man, and there are how many posts directed at him in this forum now... over 2000???

JGB, the small bead is the new version of the Classic Aviar. It is most like the original. We plan to keep it for now.

Jaymo, I don't want to answer the question fully, as it gets into disc design. However, any abrasion on the bottom of the disc will start the disc turning at high speeds, especially deep gouges. That is one reason the bead was put on the bottom; to protect the previous sharp edge from becoming ragged too quickly.

awwww

Not only you. I LOVE them and so does Mike Durco and Brian McRee to name a few.

I putt with one too. they are great. I like the stiffer plastic as opposed to the softer putt and approach

Just wondering if anyone remembers how many CE Gazelles were made for the Japan Open 2001? I have one that I want to sell and want to describe it correcty. ty in advance..

Dave, all of the latest generation drivers have a wide rim. This is great for all the ape hands out there, but guys like me with smaller hands find them uncomfortable (or difficult for a power grip).

Do you plan on continuing to develop smaller rim drivers or is the Teebird, Firebird, Leopard, etc... the last we'll see of narrow rimmed drivers.

Thanks for your time!!!

Dave, Will the Monster ever come out in DX plastic like the Beast?

PT Woods
# 20431

Donnie, we may develop one or two more drivers in the Firebird/Valkyrie/Viking range.

Primetime, we have no present plans for a DX Monster.

Primetime, we have no present plans for a DX Monster.



I can think of nothing sweeter than ripping a broke-in DX Monster with a little flex. That would get some serious D!!

Too bad... :( :( :(

PT Woods
# 20431

I saw on WFDF's site that the Bulldog is approved. Any idea when we might see them? And what is a "Hero disc type 235"? I'm always curious when I see a max wt. approaching 200g. Thanks.

Tafe, the Bulldog will be available within two weeks, maybe sooner. We are running them now. The Hero disc is a fastback like disc made for dogs.

Awesome! Is the Hero soft? My dog LOVES Gumbputts! He's still got one that's almost three years old! Thanks again.

tafe, the current model is very much like a regular fastback. They are woking on a version that will be soft and chew proof.

Hi Dave,
so the Bulldog worked out fine in the end, what is special with this midrange?

kjell, you guys might like this one. It is an overstable flier that behaves that way fast and slow. Even though it is overstable, it putts well. It flies somewhat like a Gator, but looks like a Hydra and is better behaved for me than a Gator. I still need to test it more this weekend. ymmv

Hi Dave...What colors were the First run Leopards in? Red only?...and,I have a 92 Worlds Biggest Aviar that seems like a soft Big Bead, and has a weird circle that is a different color then the rest of the disc.The disc is black and the inner circle{where the weight is written} is a whiteish-grey.Why is that,if there is a reason? Thank you.

chase, usually the first runs of dx are white. SE were white. Champion, I don't remember. The whitish area in the middle of a black Aviar would be a previous color, or the next color coming in before or after black. Most of the time, it's a previous color.

...Bulldog worked out fine in the end, what is special with this midrange?

Does this disc have two beads?

steve, it has a very small bead.

Thanks Dave , I should have said CE on those Leopards.I didnt know if Blueberry Leopards were first runs or not.

Dave:

Any chance we will ever see the TL run in dx??? Just kind of curious...

hey dave,
ever tryed a double tumb track??
one more
were are 2005 worlds going to be???

Dave, I'm sure you've answered this question, but I have serious trouble using the search function on this site.
Is there a Champion Roc being produced? I thought so, but none of the vendors I surf have one for sale.
Thanx ahead of time
Jay

The Champion Roc is a USDGC fundraiser. The only way to buy one is off Zonedriven.com before they sell out (usually very quickly) or off eBay at inflated prices.

Discchucker, possibly as a special run of glow or something like that. But we have no plans for it right now.

kd, no, never tried a double thumtrack. 2005 Worlds will be in Pennsylvania, near Allentown, I believe.

Jay, Champion Rocs are only sold as a fundraiser for the USDGC. This year the first release of next years Roc will be at the Championship. The rest will be released later.

per Bulldog:
Does this disc have two beads?

steve, it has a very small bead.

Maybe it's not technically a bead, but I thought there was an additional bea...., er, RING SEGMENT on the outside rim. About where the 'flash' might be found, pre-trim; just below there.

�I�m looking at a mostly-clear, tiedyed Champion Rhyno, and it has the illusion of having what I described, a second bead-like ring, but it�s really just that, an illusion caused by an abrupt change in convexity, and possibly refraction. Some angles can really fool you�however, this �TEST� disc was opaque, and it sure looked like a raised ring there.

So, did I not get a close-enough look; similar illusion?

Or, am I not crazy, and this second 'ring' exists, has some real purpose, and a real name?


p.s. Dave, everybody lucky enough to try it, liked it! :D

Steve, no ring, no bead, just an illusion.

Thanks Dave. :D

I will be out of town at the USDGC for the next week. If I don't get back on line during that time, that's why. I will get back on line next week to answer any questions that are on this thread. Thanks

Hi Dave hope you had a great trip.I have a question about the Champion Orc.Is there really a way to determine 1st and 2nd runs? I was under the assumption that the more clear plastic Orcs were first runs.The ones with color swirls in the plastic but still very clear compared to the "pearl" looking plastic.So is there a way to tell? Sorry if this has been covered before.

Chase, there really is no way to tell. We are running Champion Orcs now that are clear colored.

I was curious if you could discuss the differences in the Viking runs. I have seen terms like "zipper viking" used, but am unsure of what they mean. I really would like to look at these discs, but from what I have read, every run seems to differ in flight characteristics.

Thanks,
Chris

I have seen terms like "zipper viking" used, but am unsure of what they mean.

If you're old enough to remember the sound made when you scratched a 45 or an LP, you'll have a good notion of why they're called "zipper" discs. (BTW, there are zipper JK Valks as well as zipper Vikings.)

Essentially, zipper discs have a series of miniscule, circular grooves (miniature Rings of Headrick?) on the top of the flight plate that make a "zipping" sound when you run your fingernail across them. Don't know whether it was a feature or an anomaly: though I suspect it was the latter. Don't know what sort of treatement discs receive when they come out of the mold, but I've occasionally seen traces of the ring pattern on non-zipper discs, so my guess would be that zippers were insufficiently or incompletely buffed/polished when they came out of the mold.

Can't say I've noticed much of a difference in how they fly compared to non-zipper discs, though.

I have buddies who used Vikings as "clubing up" from a TeeBird. But when they lost theirs, and later replaced it...they now use the Viking as a long turnover disc.

I'd say the "Zipper" makes them more overstable than their nonzipper counterparts.

I personally dont see much difference,the Zippers are more overstable,but I didnt think it was enough that I would only throw the Zippers.I have both and get the same results out of them both,especially in the field.

Thanks Dave.I have been seeing lots of "1st run Orcs" on Ebay and was wondering how they distinguished,a sent email to the seller was not returned as of yet.

Further, the zipper effect is from an artifact of tooling a new mold as Felix states. It goes away after a run or two. It can't be felt in the mold part itself, but they are visible as "witness lines".

Dave,

I see the Bulldog is out. Is this intended to be a more Aviar like Rhyno? I don't see it on the Innova site, so I don't know what the numbers are.

Hawk, the Bulldog is a more Aviar like Gator.

If you're old enough to remember the sound made when you scratched a 45 or an LP, you'll have a good notion of why they're called "zipper" discs. (BTW, there are zipper JK Valks as well as zipper Vikings.)




thanks for clearing that up. I do know what the sound of vinyl is like; I have been a dj for about 5 years now. :)

Do the runs of the viking differ that much? Also, some people mentioned different flight characteristics with different colors...True or false?

thanks

not in my opinion.I have blue,red,yellow,green and a color I call detoxed urine.Its a yellow with alot of clear around the rim and throughout.I know its gross.The red and blue are zippers.

Hi Dave, I sure appreciate the ability to ask you questions here....anyway I have one for you. Im partial to the old flat xd mold and notice the newer ones are quite a bit more domey.

Im wondering if you are ever going to run some flatter ones again, and also are you going to run some in the new pro plastic and if so when will that happen and will they be more like the new ones or old ones.
Thanks in advance......aloha

Hey Dave,

Thanks for the Bulldog answer. Here's a question that got lost back in the thread. The new Pro Aviars...driver or putter mold?

Al, the flatness or domeyness depends mosly upon the material we use at the time. Current material makes domier discs. If we do run Pro XDs, they will tend to be a little domey too. Candy would be less so. As for the future, I would imagine we will run flatter XDs too if we ran them a little softer.

Hawk, I can't say for sure right now, but I would imagine driver. I will try to remember Monday to look at work.

Try out the new Bulldog, this is a great disc that won't let you down. It is really stable at mid speed, and flys great at higher speeds.

It was really good to see you Dave, take care and I will talk to you soon.

Holy Cow that dog is getting up.

Hi Dave..What can you tell me about the Hammer.I recently got one, but they were before my time, so I dont know much about them.Was the Wedge logo on second runs? Thank you sir.

I have a number of the first run I think. They are either red or blue and have a #7 hammer as a hot stamp.
Extremely stiff plastic.
The second hotstamp was like a diamond (Wedge?) with the word Hammer. A Classic Hammer was later made in much softer plastic with the same logo.
And of course there was a sharper edged version with the same name.
The originals were like a beaded Aviar - XD.
The original XD's were beadless.
(Have some of those too)

Hi Dave..What can you tell me about the Hammer.I recently got one, but they were before my time, so I dont know much about them.Was the Wedge logo on second runs? Thank you sir.


I'll give this a shot. First runs were all maroon, most with the Champion Star stamp, few Football stamped. Second run came with the Hammer nailing the basket stamp. Third was the Wedge stamp. Then they retooled the Hammer and the 2500 disc came out, then the new Hammer with the Hammer shark stamp. I've got all of these in my collection.

I have a yellow Champion Valkyrie with a green stamp that I found (called the number on the back and the guy said I could have it). It doesn't quite feel like the regular Champion Valks that I've seen...it has a Juliana Korver signature (four time women's champion) and has a 'zipper' top. The plastic seems to be stiffer and more opaque than the other Champion Valkyries that I've seen. It seems to be more durable than the other plastic that I've seen and I was just wondering if anyone could tell me anything about it.

Yeah.

It is probably a JK Pro Valk. If it is opaque, then it is an early run of it.

Hawk, Pro Aviars are driver mold including regular Pro and JK and KC Pro.

Thanks Dave. :)

thanks for the help everybody,what I have is a red wedge that weighs{175g, max weight?} and has the sickest rainbow stamp.Its like a oil stain stamp.What can I expect it to fly like? I was guessing like a classic Roc? Ive used XDs but only as short drives or long putts.Thanks!

Your Hammer will fly very much like a Classic Roc. My brother used to putt with one, shallow rim made it easy to get fingers out.

Dave,

What are the flight characteristic's of the Super Roc that was put out for the 04' World's?

PT Woods
# 20431

Primetime, the Super Roc is stable at high speeds and rather overstable at low speeds. It tends to fade hard.

Does anyone know the specs? It throws pretty close to the PL Classic Roc to me. It just seems to have a little more glide.

PT Woods
# 20431

thanks for the answer to my question about the xd dave. So to elaborate a bit, since it actually isnt a change in the mold design but the type of plastic that makes it domey, is this reaction happening outside of the mold or is there actually extra space inside the mold that allows the expansion/doming to take place? just curious. Also do you know where I can get some of those older ones that are flat tops. aloha

Dave, I saw a DX Viking on Ebay from a USDGC players pack. How soon till they come out for regular production?

Any chance of seeing Starfires in DX or are they strickly a fundraising disc?

(It still would be cool to have a DX Monster too!)

PT Woods
# 20431

I ordered DX Vikings and the new Bulldog from Zonedriven the other day.

aloha al, the discs take their final shape outside of the mold while they are cooling. As for flat XDs, you might try some of the mail order shops.

Primetime, for now, Starfires and Monsters are in candy plastic only. Orcs will be run in DX at some point. The DX Viking is now a production disc.

The DX Viking is now a production disc.



How do you think they fly compared to Champion Vikings? I impulse bought a Champion Viking that I found on sale (I think it's a "zipper") and it's becoming my favorite distance driver. I'm excited to see what a broken in DX Viking can do.

ok, at a store in town here there is a Tbird that has a DX price and is with all the DX plastic.....BUT this odd colored tbird has plastic that is not DX, it is not pro or champ plastic either....its like a purple ish color
its 170gs
what is up with this disc? just a different run that ive never seen of DX?

Buy it! At a DX price...it might be a mis-marked/mis-stamped gem... :eek:

garublador, it seems to fly with a similar flight characteristic as far as high and low speed, but seems to have more carry than the Champion version.

Dave,
Do you know the status on S. Johnson's new book on disc golf disc's? Thx

flynvegas, I thought his book would have been published by now. It may have been, but he is still working on something: either the same "Disctionary", or something new.

flynvegas, I thought his book would have been published by now. It may have been, but he is still working on something: either the same "Disctionary", or something new.


The Disctionary is what I was refering to. His first book on Frisbee's was very detailed, I hope he continues that effort on this book. Thx

There was a request for pictures for Dr. Johnson's book in a previous DGWN.
So you could check there and contact the publisher.
Seemed like their deadline for pictures was shortly after that.
I too have the original and am looking forward to his new work.

He had also posted on this site around last xmas. He emailed me, but only asked if I had a Rock N Roller, which I didn't. A book of this type will be a great tool for the collectors. And a tribute to all the disc golf mfr.'s past and present..

Hey Dave, Not to start a panic, but.. While playing a round in Houston on Tuesday, a local told me that Innova was no longer making Champion Orcs. That seemed a bit suspicious to me, but can you give me the bottom line? I guess I need to know whether to invest my next paycheck into Orcs! Thanks in Advance!!

Joe

While playing a round in Houston on Tuesday, a local told me that Innova was no longer making Champion Orcs.




That's crazy talk! :D

Joe, the rumor isn't true. We have plenty and will continue to make more. We have no reason or plans to discontine one of our best sellers.

I guessed as much. Thanks for the reply Dave!

HOUSTONIANS! sheesh get a clue

Dave, in the latest DGWN/Barry Schultz interview, Barry mentioned he threw some proto DX Valks... Just curious if these were just 'first runs' or were specifically retooled for Barry?
Thanks.

Hey dave... any new Proline discs coming out in the near future... I love the new TL blend it's great, when are the 2005 Worlds Rocs coming to Zonedriven???

thanks :D

will we see a proline firebird or monster? something overstable in that plastic would be nice

Dave,

I was just lookin at an old puma of mine and noticed that it is very simmilar( almost exaclty the same) as the spider, Did the Puma loose the thumbtrack and become the Spider???

Wes

i saw a pro monster the other day....fwiw

What's the next big driver for 2005?
In 2003 it was the beast. :D
In 2004 it was the orc. :mad:
So, what is it going to be in 2005? :confused:
I hope its a stable disc for a change. :D

i saw a pro monster the other day....fwiw



I think he means the new Proline plastic...not the candy "Pro" plastic...pre-Champion/post CE stuff.

champ orc is stable. heavy dx beast is stable. pro orc is under, as is champ beast

circle 2, they were not specifically retooled for Barry. I assume they were first run.

jaymo, the 2005 Worlds Rocs should be available already. If they are not, it is because Innova East (which is handling it) has not recieved art work from the World's committee as yet.

jaymo and steven, the next Proline may be a new disc or a Pro Viking. The Monster is not likely soon. The Firebird is a potential at some point. We will use the plastic we used for the second half of the TL run or the Pro Roc plastic as those turned out to be the most durable.

Wes, the Spider and Puma are not related. The Puma was similar to a Panther with a Thumtrac and a big bead.

znash, there was another big driver you missed. The second run Starfires. More stable than an Orc. As for the next big driver: It's not up yet. Maybe by spring. We have a few other discs we are working on first.

jaymo, there are still a few 2004 Rocs left. The proceeds will go to the 2005 Worlds.

"We have a few other discs we are working on first."



Mmmmh, can you give us any info or hints, please...... ;)

We will use the plastic we used for the second half of the TL run or the Pro Roc plastic as those turned out to be the most durable.



How do you know a disc is the second half of the TLs (more durable Pro Plastic)?
And were Pro Orcs run in that plastic too?
Thanks,
Matt

discgolftool, you would have to have both types together probably. The more durable type would be a little stiffer and not as grippy. Some of the Pro Orcs were made in that material, but the first ones were not.

have you guys run any pro t's in the new pro blend? good improvement on that plastic----- thanks again dave

Steven, the Pro series Teebirds are going to be TLs. They tested better than the Ts.

Yes I would have to say Dave the new Pro blend is excellent!

znash, there was another big driver you missed. The second run Starfires. More stable than an Orc. As for the next big driver: It's not up yet. Maybe by spring. We have a few other discs we are working on first.



Thanks for the input Dave but I left the Starfire :Dout because it's a CFR disc and not a regular run even thou I carry two of them in my bag and have six of them at home some first run from the 03 worlds and some from the BGAM's and Michiana. I also left out the Viking.

i had an orange candy starfire from a USDGC players pack given to me recently and it looks to be a different mold than the other starfires i have seen. was there some sort of mold retooling done to the starfire?

I did hear about that also.

Paul, it was a slightly different version analogous to a slight x version. Plus the plastic was a little different too.

jaymo and steven, the next Proline may be a new disc or a Pro Viking. The Monster is not likely soon. The Firebird is a potential at some point. We will use the plastic we used for the second half of the TL run or the Pro Roc plastic as those turned out to be the most durable.



Hmmmm........I keep hearing people asking about Monsters in DX or Pro Line plastic......maybe this will give Innova a litle hint?? (hint, hint) ;) ;)

PT Woods
# 20431

Aww man... I've been using these new Pro TL's and I love them... so I went and bought a couple (2) off eBay... and I got them in the first run plastic!!! what a rip man!

Dave, lovin the new stuff... hate the old stuff.... D'OH

Wait for a rainy day you will love the old stuff sooo super grippy even in the rain, you never slip with the grip you get onj those first runs

Dave, do you have any idea how many KC Ravens where produced?

mf100, as far as I can recall, less than 5000 total.

Dave,
Who decides when the good old Champion Star stamp comes out for new first run discs? I would like to have seen the new DX Viking with a Champion Star stamp.Thx

i'd also like to see first runs be stamped with the star stamp.

Definately would be awesome if they would use a similar star stamp as the starfire for first runs.

flynvegas, we used to put the star on most of the first runs, but stopped over the last few years. Were using the star stamp as a stop gap measure until we got the artwork for the proper stamp rather than trying to create a "first run". It was stopped because we never knew how many to stamp, it created confusion as to the identification of the specific disc, and believe it or not, customers did not want them without the specific stamp.

mf100, the first new disc will be called the Sidewinder. It is a long distance turning disc. We will be testing it this weekend.

Thanks Dave, looking forward to try the result when it comes out!
Is it a retooled mold or is it a completely new design? Is it going to replace a existing mold? ;)

Dave

Any idea how rare a non-thumb track Zephyr with the Innova bar stamp on it might be? How old? Any around :D? I love that thing! Thanks!

mf100, a new design most closely resembling a Valkyrie, but with more high speed turn and more glide. Got to test it as a roller both side arm and back hand. Worked great both ways. Very fun disc to throw. Didn't get to test it in the wind, and I don't imagine it would be a very good wind disc except a tail wind.

scoob, those are very rare, if they are really the originals. I think we only did one test run. They didn't hold up to high speed tests after they were scuffed, so we retooled. The retool held up. No more around. I think it is more than 12 years old.

mf100, the first new disc will be called the Sidewinder. It is a long distance turning disc. We will be testing it this weekend.



[It's] a new design most closely resembling a Valkyrie, but with more high speed turn and more glide. Got to test it as a roller both side arm and back hand. Worked great both ways. Very fun disc to throw. Didn't get to test it in the wind, and I don't imagine it would be a very good wind disc except a tail wind.

[/QUOTE]

sounds great Dave. Will the first edition out probably be Champion plastic?

robj, yes. We have been trying for a while to get this type of disc in Champion plastic. The Archangel didn't work in Champion, and after 5 tries, I gave up. I am very pleased with the Sidewinder.

I love the name -- it sounds apt. I use mainly Orcs and Valkyries now -- and I expect the Sidewinder will fit in the driver section of my bag as a nice opposite bookend to my Monster. Is the ETA for store shelves 2004 or 2005?

scoob, those are very rare, if they are really the originals. I think we only did one test run. They didn't hold up to high speed tests after they were scuffed, so we retooled. The retool held up. No more around. I think it is more than 12 years old.



Yeah, I have had it for a long time, twelve years sounds about right. I love to use it to play catch and warm up.

Dx Orc please!!!
that's it... thanks Dave

robj, big box stores probably 2005, but local stores 2004.

Hi Dave, someone told me that Big Bead Classic Aviar will be no longer make anymnore, is that true? If so, do you have plently of it in the warehouse?

Thanks

Joey, that is true. The Classic will not have the big bead. Only the KC Pro and the JK Pro will have the big bead. We still have some of the older big bead versions, I believe.

Dave...there is another thread started on this, but I figure you are the man to answer this. Were there a set of 10x kc pro roc's ran in the 8x mold? There seems to a burning debate about this.

I definately would like to know too.

Dave:

Do you have a preview of the upcoming molds coming out in the new proline material? Also, when do you expect the firebird or monster to come out in proline mold?

Thanks again,

Josh

discchucker, there were two different runs out of two different molds. The second run was the more over stable type.

No preview of the upcoming Pros as we haven't made a decision yet. However, we are testing the Pro Firebird soon. If it is worthy, we will run it. No plans for the Monster soon.

Thanks for the update Dave!! I know there are a ton of people waiting for the Pro Firebird!!!

No preview of the upcoming Pros as we haven't made a decision yet. However, we are testing the Pro Firebird soon. If it is worthy, we will run it. No plans for the Monster soon.



Did you just say soon? Sooooooo..........at least your thinking about the Monster. Pro Line would be ok but (DX) I think (DX) would be (DX) even (DX) better. ;) ;) ;)

PS: The DX Viking is SWEET!!!

PT Woods
# 20431

Perhaps the Pro Firebird will go the way of the pro teebird, i.e. FL?

Hey Pro F/FL, or FX don't matter to me. I prefer the FX mold, but I'll take any of them.

FX please!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Morning Dave, I was curious what you could tell me about the Innova X-mas Discs.Where they all Stingrays? Do you have a run # ? Thank you , Sir

Chase, all I can say now is that they are red with a white stamp. Don't know if the disc has been chosed or not.

Dave,

I hope the New Pro Line Firebird testing goes well. There is at least 50+ players I know in Wisconsin can't wait for the new Pro Line Firebird!! Thanks again Dave.

Thanks, what about the 04?

Last years Christmas disc? I believe it was a candy Stingray, but I don't know how many were made. Less than a thousand, and more than a hundred is the best I can do.

Dear Gary -

While I have a relatively consistent set of design criteria, I do not try to impose my will or preconceived hole designs on to the site. Rather, my role as a course designer is to bring out for view and play in a fair way the unique or special elements of each piece of property. I am not really creating per se, but finding what God already put into place. Since no two sites are alike, not two courses or holes will be alike if I do my job correctly.



Hi Harold,

I am wondering if you have ever played the 18 hole pro-par 72 course at Idlewild (Burlington, KY -- greater Cincinnati area), and if so what you think of it? Imo, Fred Salaz has created a wonderful course and I know Lavone Wolfe really likes it (so too does Team Innova's Chris Heeren). It was a bit rough for the first few years, but it has become more and more groomed through Fred's leadership and the Parks dept. has begun doing an excellent job of maintaining it this year.

If you, or Dave, Tim, Sam, etc. are ever in the area, feel free to let me or course pro Fred Salaz know ( salazf@fuse.net ) -- it would be great honor to play a round with you.

Thats great Dave thanks.

Dave, thanks for your dedication! How can you tell the difference beetween the two different runs of 10x Rocs? Also, what is the difference between 10X and 11X Rocs?
Thanks!

Roc Steady, there is a difference in the nose of the discs. The blunters nosed Rocs are straighter flying with less overstable fade. The 11X may have the same difference, but we have since gone to the sharper, more overstable type.

Dave,
At our Fall Platter last weekend, the player pack was either a Classic Roc or a DX Viking. I took the Roc. When I was looking through them, one of them was stamped Classic Roc, but was marked as an XD on the bottom. The two discs are pretty similar from what I can tell. Was this just a mis-marking, or are they the same mold?
Thanks.

bfunkyp, the XD has a small bead and the Roc has a large bead. The tops are slightly different too. It could be a misstamp.

davie, i wanted to know is there any place or anyone whos sells ching Roc's in bulk?

cool

Biggs, I don't know for sure, but they are done on the east coast at Carolina Flying Discs (Innova East)

discgolf, what are you expecting in terms of characteristic from a Pro Firebird? The ones I tested were similar in stability to Champion TeeBirds.

I PM'd you Dave.

discgolf, what are you expecting in terms of characteristic from a Pro Firebird? The ones I tested were similar in stability to Champion TeeBirds.

I don't know what discgolf is expecting, but I'm hoping for something along the lines of a CE FL. :)

I agree.

Hi Felix. Personally, the CE FL was my favorite, but it seems that more guys like the overstability of the regular F(x) mold. The Pro would be more like the FL, but still not the same. We do have two other Firebird iterations that are progressively less overstable, but at that point, the Firebird begins to fly like the original KC Pro, which was flippy.

i love the dx firebird. nice and solid without being too overstable. i think a pro firebird that had the stability of a dx would be nice.

I have long wanted a disc like the fl or a less stable version of the monster pro plastic would also be great. My only thinking is the more stable out of the box the better, becuse we can wear them in to our desired stability. thanks Dave

ce

Thanks for the feedback guys. It does help clarify what we want in a Pro Firebird.

Always a pleasure Dave!! Keep up the great work!!

Innova Disc Golf #1

Hey dave, when can we expect the sidewinder on shelves? and for that matter when do the 2005 Worlds Super rocs come out??? I heard they're run with the new Pro mix (rather than the first run material)

thanks much

Jaymo, I don't have an exact reply except to say any day. The World's Roc will probably be first available through Zonedriven. I think we will be selling the Sidewinders today, if we havent already released them. That means vendors will have them a few days later.

Big Dave I need a SWEEEEEEEEET AVIAR!

Not so hard that I will break my teeth when I chew on it.
Not too soft that it is droopy and sagging
One that I can cup in my hand
I even like a little nipple.

Wait a second. Am I talking about an Aviar or a Booby :D

You've been single waaaaay toooo long, Kev. :D

single waaaaay toooo long



Huh? I can't stay single for even a month. There is a line and they have taken numbers and they are ****** I haven't called their number yet. ;)

Big Dave, I'm also looking for a BEAST that is fast but just doesn't roll over for any guy. One that can take a lickin on a tree stump and one that can take a line into a tight gap. :D

Kev, not sure if you should try a regular Putt & Approach or a Stiffy (Classic Aviar). As for a stable Beast; try a Starfire. Call Sam. He'll hook you up.

But you weren't really askin, were ya?

I was just making a funny but I did get a win this weekend throwing exclusivly INNOVA. I didn't lose a beat with the drivers (Champ ORC, CE FireChicken and CE T-Bird) and of course the ROC but my putting was attrocious. That's expected with 2 brand new virgin discs. The two Aviars I had were glowies and one was too firm and the other was too soft for my liking. I'm searching for that perfect feel. All my friends have real nice Aviars but I'm still searching for that one that is made for me. :D I'll figure it out realllllll soon!

THANKS!

Kev,

Try some of the new Pro/Champion Mix 2nd Run Pro Line Orcs. YOu will love them!!!

All that 1st run, 2nd run stuff is very confusing to me,:confused: it makes my head hurt...I pick discs to throw by how PRETTY they are :Dand then I will figure out how they fly and adjust to the disc.

Hey kev, Try that Big bead grid aviar. it is more softer than small bead grid aviar. Thought that you would like that one. I met you at Texas 10 finals you were in same card with my friend Andy Schofield. Yep we are hearing imparied discers. :D

DUDE that was some cool stuff, I really had fun playing with Andy, I wish I could have learned more sign from him. I still only know the international sign for your # 1 Ronald :D

LOL .. Whenever you come in my town Arlington. I will teach you some more signs.. SO the way you wont get in trouble. :D

Kev,

As a fellow believer in pretty plastic the Champion Aviars come dyed! ;)

Dave have you guys tested the sidewinder yet??? do you know what the ratings might be (innova style) like turn speed glide etc...

thanks

I think the omega putt and approach is the perfect combination of grippy yet ridgid...problem is not sure if the are still making them. Dave can you add anything to this?

ce

Kev,

The first run Pro Orcs aren't as durable as the 2nd runs because it was just Pro Line plastic. The 2nd runs were a mix that made them alittle less grippy and more durable.

Kev, this is a reach but some say the new Hydra makes a great putter. You'll have to see how it feels for you though. They are all the same weight 170g -- so that's easy.

PS: We need Ichiro as our lead-off man next year. Can you imagine the Cubbies with Suzuki? :D

Jaymo, the Sidewinder is like a Valkyrie with more turn and more glide.

bandsagger, I am not sure what the Millennium line will have this year. It's a work in progress, but we haven't made the Omega Putt and Approach in a while. We are currently making the SS, so it will definitely be in the line up. But, that probably wont help Kevin.

try a 11x KC......best putter on the market if you like em stiff, but with a little give, or a older soft BB.

...snip... the Firebird begins to fly like the original KC Pro, which was flippy.



I still have a bunch of those flippy KC Pro Firebirds, if anybody wants some (PM me).

Hi Dave,

Long time listener, first time caller. I just got a Roc today that was part of a new shipment of Tournament discs for a local (Atlanta) tourney. It's very domey, thick rimed(?) and a very different plastic for a Roc. It has a lot of flash and a very sharp bead. Is this something different?

To all others, if I'm an idiot for asking this question, please email me directly, rather than lambasting me with posts.

Dave, thanks for the Sidewinder -- it will make a nice X-mas present to myself. Did I hear you once say that it was your answer to a candy archangel since the Archangel didn't retain its flight characterics in Champion plastic? Also, is the Sidewinder as fast as a Beast?

I threw the latest Pro Orc run today and was amazed by the carry it has. I have four in blue and two are pure blue and two are a mix of darker blue and lighter blue swirls. Would that be due to color change or plastic mixture or ...? I definitely like how they fly :D

jim, it doesn't sound familiar at all. Sorry. Maybe someone else reading this thread can help out.

robj, yes I did say that the Sidewinder was the answer to not being able to produce a turning candy Archangel. No, I don't think it is as fast as a Beast, but it has more glide. The swirling colors are usually due to a color change, but sometimes the molders like to experiment with color effects.

just wondering if you have seen these so called "discatchers" http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=20851&item=7117700687&rd=1 is discatcher a licensed name? thanks again

I am pretty sure they just put discatcher in the name so that if people went searching for a discatcher that this basket would pop up. I personally have one (poor boy wanted a basket) and nowhere on it does it claim its a discatcher. I have seen Discraft discs with things like Innova Discraft Gateway.. yadda yadda on the name so that it comes up no matter what company you search for. Just a way to make that item get more hits.

Klunker - what do you think about that basket? I already have a portable Discatcher, but have thought about purchasing one of these just due to how cheap they are and would be much easier to tote around when extra holes are needed for a tourney.

Is it a sturdy basket? How does it compare with the other cheaper goals?

I have only had the basket for about 4 or 5 months and it hasn't been out in any bad conditions. It is a little different than standard goals because the radius of the upper chains is the same as the radius of the basket resulting in a lot of bounce outs from hits on the upper chains. The way I look at it though is that I am looking to work on my form and that no 2 baskets are the same. I would love to have a portable discatcher, but this thing does catch discs. I don't care what portable you use, if you hit center of the chains it will most likely go in. So as a practice tool for warming up I highly recommend it. As for tournament play I would just advise everyone if it was on the course that it is a different basket and remind them that everyone will play on it. But I would never make it the first or last hole. Don't want to start a round with an unwarranted bounce out or have to think about a putt to win on that basket. As for portability of it... I don't know how the discatcher disassembles, but this thing when collapsed fits totally within the basket portion. It fits in my back seat and I have a little Hyundai. If you want to know anything more send me a PM. (Don't want to offend anyone by going too far off topic on the Dave D thread)

Thanks...just wanted an opinion from someone that owned one. The Discatcher portable is HEAVY :)

Paul, it's not a licensed product. First, I've heard of it. Thanks.

Paul, it's not a licensed product. First, I've heard of it. Thanks.



If the manufacturer is Instep then it is in fact an approved disc golf target. I do believe it is an Instep.

InSTEP LLC Disc Golf Goal
2425 Enterprise Drive, Mendota Heights, MN 55120, (651)468-0133, ext. 221, b.edwards@instep.net

Found on the PDGA pdf of approved discs and targets.

http://www.pdga.com/documents/tech_standards/PDGA_approved_discs_and_targets.pdf

All I want for X-mas is my Pro Line Firebirds.................hehe

Paul, it's not a licensed product. First, I've heard of it. Thanks.



If the manufacturer is Instep then it is in fact an approved disc golf target. I do believe it is an Instep.

InSTEP LLC Disc Golf Goal
2425 Enterprise Drive, Mendota Heights, MN 55120, (651)468-0133, ext. 221, b.edwards@instep.net

Found on the PDGA pdf of approved discs and targets.

http://www.pdga.com/documents/tech_standards/PDGA_approved_discs_and_targets.pdf



"Licensed" and "Approved" are not synonymous.

I know I ask almost every month but any thoughts on a Dx Orc??? is that in the foreseeable future??? will I ever get my dream disc??? Dave Feldberg had one at the canadian Nationals, and it looked like an awesome disc!

thanks in advance :D

Dave, is there a site where I can find info on Innova disc's. I have San Marino, Ontario, and Rancho Cucamongo
stamped disc's. I'm curious as to which was made when.

Thanks, Scott

jaymo, we are thinking about doing a dx Orc within the next month or so.

girlymon, I know Rick Neil of Tulso Ok, had a pretty extensive early history of discs, but I don't have an address handy. The San Marino was first, followed by the Ontario and the Rancho.

kewl man
thank You

jaymo, we are thinking about doing a dx Orc within the next month or so.



Dave, Are you sure you didn't mean dx Monster instead of an Orc? he he he!

(I can only dream....)

PT Woods
# 20431

DX Orc!!! SWEET!!

What are the advantages of DX for this disc?

Paul, it's not a licensed product. First, I've heard of it. Thanks.



If the manufacturer is Instep then it is in fact an approved disc golf target. I do believe it is an Instep.

InSTEP LLC Disc Golf Goal
2425 Enterprise Drive, Mendota Heights, MN 55120, (651)468-0133, ext. 221, b.edwards@instep.net

Found on the PDGA pdf of approved discs and targets.

http://www.pdga.com/documents/tech_standards/PDGA_approved_discs_and_targets.pdf




Now that Ive read it closer the question was wether or not it was a licensed name the question of being an approved product was never brought up. Sorry for the interjection.

"Licensed" and "Approved" are not synonymous.

DweLLeR, there are three potential advantages. Price, grip, and the ability to wear in the disc to become a turning disc or roller. That last bit may not appeal to most, but Ken Climo won several World titles throwing mainly DX Vipers in various stages of wear. They all had the grip and release he wanted, but would do different things for him as he needed. Basically, it is the same thing that many Pros still do with Rocs.

Very well put Dave. That is what I'am talking about. Can't wait to wear some in.

sounds good, i like orcs but i wish they would beat up a little faster. i'll probably get a dx orc in the bag when they're made.

Giddy-up! that's awesome, thanks dave... :D

[Now that Ive read it closer the question was wether or not it was a licensed name the question of being an approved product was never brought up. Sorry for the interjection.

"Licensed" and "Approved" are not synonymous.



[/QUOTE]

:D

DX ORCS!?!

THANK YOU DAVE!!!!!!!!!!!

First Id like to say I think your awesome for answering questions for people. WOW, great customer service. Second this may have been answered before, but Im only on page 42 after a couple hours of reading, so forgive me if it has. I wanted to know how many first run valkyries were made, and how many in the red and how many in the blue. Or what percantage was blue. Thank you very much for your time and hope to hear from you.

disctracted, I can only guess at this. The first run was approximately 5000. Most were red. Again, I would guess over 90% were red.

Dave,
grilymon brought up a topic I have thought about many times. I have thrown several Cobra's this year (lost a few) and (to me) all Cobras are not equal. I am a rec player (probably a 825 rating) so I realize I am part of the problem. My newer Cobra Classics are not as stable as my older ones (when they were new). And my newer Cobra's don't seem to hold their anhyzer....almost like they are more stable than when my old ones were new.

I am trying to keep my weights consistent.

Any thoughts....

ADiscand3Plates, sorry, I don't know if I get what you are saying. It sounds as if you are saying your new Cobra Classic acts less stable (hyzer ?) and more stable (anhyzer) than your older one, when it was new. If that is what you are saying, it sounds like your new one flies like the regular Cobra, rather than a Classic.

Dave,
Thx for signing that Eagle Mark brought by for me. Will be a great addition to my collection. Rob

hey dave... Innova site says "The first design for the 2005 Super Roc is here" so how many designs will there be??? and will those be different runs, or were they all ran at the same time, just stamped at different times...

thanks

hey dave... Innova site says "The first design for the 2005 Super Roc is here" so how many designs will there be???

The info posted on the Worlds 2005 Pro Shop website (http://www.merchantamerica.com/2005_worlds/index.php?ba=product_enlarge&product=43843) suggests that there will be three hotstamps.

jaymo, I believe, as Felix points out, that there will be three designs. Different hotstamps at different times on the same run, unless we run out and have to make more.

Dave, were the '05 super rocs made with the same blend as the 04 super rocs or did Innova use the new, more durable "blend" of plastic to run the 05 super rocs?

Thanks!

Erick

Davei, Are the 2005 Super Rocs made from the Pro/Champ Blend Plastic or are they like the 2004 Super Roc Pro Plastic?
Thanks,
Matt

The Super Rocs were the first blended plastic discs. That's where we got the idea to do it to the rest of the Pro line. There has only been one run so far, so the 2005s will be the same plastic as the 2004s.

ADiscand3Plates, sorry, I don't know if I get what you are saying. It sounds as if you are saying your new Cobra Classic acts less stable (hyzer ?) and more stable (anhyzer) than your older one, when it was new. If that is what you are saying, it sounds like your new one flies like the regular Cobra, rather than a Classic.



When I first quizzed my local supplier about the difference between the Cobra and the CC, I was told that the CC was slightly more stable (more hyzer) than the Cobra. Given that...you would be correct.
My first CC (bought in 2002?) was more stable than my 2002 Cobra. (No doubt, even for a beginner.) My 2004 CC (purchased about six weeks ago) seems to be less stable than the Cobra I bought mid-summer.
I don't mean to split hairs...but they are messing with my mind...and there's not too much of that left :confused:
Thanks.

Dave a quote of yours from august 25th:

The First Run Pro Orc plastic was not that durable. That is why we changed it. The plastic we are using now takes a lot more abuse. The first run probably had only two thousand or so made.
The new Pro mix is half way between the original pro and candy.



I think what people want to know is the 2005's (or the 2004's for that matter) are they the "new" blended champ/pro material like the TL's that I love so much... or are they the "pure" pro material, like the 1st run TB's... or are you saying that the 2004s were actually the blended material too?

thanks for clarification (and thanks for the previous answer too) :D

Davei,
How many Sidewinders where stamped with the Mini Star Stamp, and are they going to be continued with that stamp or will they get the traditional Champion Stamp.
Thanks,
Matt

The standard stamp has already been released for the Sidewinder.

So how may sidewinders have the Star stamp ?

Dave, I have some new Rocs that have an odd dome on them. Side by side they are almost identical to the Rainbow Roc. Is this the new overstable Roc you are referring to with Discchucker? Are they gonna be a regular run or should I stock up? I know the ones I have are overstable but wasn't sure if they were a fluke or something..

HOW DO THE SIDEWINDERS FLY....I WILL FIND OUT SOON ENOUGH BUT I WANT T KNOW....04 WORLDS SUPER ROCS RULE TOO BAD MINE IS SWIMMIN WIT THE FISHES!!

04 AND 05 WORLDS ROC SAME DISC DIFFERENT STAMP.

Thanks for the reply Dave. Three more questions for you. Were all first run ce tbirds TL or were some T. Did any subsequent runs of ce valks have any blueberry colored discs like the first run did? Was the first run ce valk the only one to have the red and blue colored discs, or were some other first runs made with those colors? Thanks again for your time

I know there was at least 1 run of the CE Tbirds that were a T not a TL. I couldn't tell you though which run they were.

yo cheat, i was just talking bout the first runs. Any input on those?

jaymo, yes, the 2004 Rocs were the blended material. That's where we got the idea to do it to the whole Pro line. It's not as grippy, but it is tougher.

DGT, I am not sure how many we stamped. I would guess about 4000. The Sidewinder will have it's own stamp.

Greaseman1, that is probably the new DX material which tends to dome up a bit. We are going back to a blended material.

distracted, there were some Ts produced about the same time as the first run red TLs, but they were mainly TLS. The Blueberry originals tended to be a little domey. Not sure if the color was used subsequently, but may have been. Those particular red and blue colors were used for Pro type after that, but may have ocassionally been used on Valks. The results would have been a little different when we went to see through Valks in heavy.

Davei,
While on the subject of the Pro Plastic, are all of the Pro Teebird-Ls the blended version?
Thanks,
Matt

Thanks Dave,

Matt I definitely have a couple TL's that are of the original Pro material.

Hi Dave...Was there 1st run Blueberry Leopards? Also, I might have asked this but, I have a Aviar from 92' Worlds Biggest and its a Soft BB....are these basically soft KCs? Thank you for your time.

dave --would you mind expounding on the latest run of new dx material [domes up], and how the future runs of dx will differ? why are you guys messing with dx? i think it is a good move-as i for one would like it to be a little stiffer and grippier. a hair more durable would be nice as well. the gateway s plastic is the best of the inexpensives-but i do not throw any as the molds do not work for me. i love dx rhynos [stiff], dx rocs, dx tees, and dx beasts. [longest, straightest driver ever for me] how are the dx orcs comparing to dx beasts? also--have you ever thought of running dx tls? thanks again

jaymo, we are thinking about doing a dx Orc within the next month or so.



this is why I throw Innova drivers -- first the beast, then the viking, and now the orc in plastic that leaves my hand when I want it to.

Was the first run ce valk the only one to have the red and blue colored discs, or were some other first runs made with those colors?

Note that red and blue were also used for second run Valks (I have two of each). I also have a blue from a later (probably third) run.

HOW DO THE SIDEWINDERS FLY....I WILL FIND OUT SOON ENOUGH BUT I WANT T KNOW

Hey Newbie, there's already an entire thread dedicated to answering your question. Next time, look around a bit before you go shooting off your mouth. And stop shouting: it's rude.

k

Felix, do your second and third run blueberry valks have the flashing on the outside also like the first runs. Is there anyway to differentiate the different runs? Ive read on here the second run blueberrys have a larger nipple on top, would that hold a good determiner or just happen to count on the trimmer at the time? Thnaks for the help.

Felix, do your second and third run blueberry valks have the flashing on the outside also like the first runs. Is there anyway to differentiate the different runs? Ive read on here the second run blueberrys have a larger nipple on top, would that hold a good determiner or just happen to count on the trimmer at the time? Thnaks for the help.

The second run have flashing, the third doesn't. The nipple on the second runs are not noticably larger than the nipples on some of my other (non-blueberry) third or fourth runs. In fact, the 165g blueberry Second Run has no discernable nipple.

The distinguishing physical characteristic of second run Valks is their flatness of the flight plate, which gives them a distinctive feel in your hand. (The other distinguishing characteristic of Second Runs is, of course, their overstability, which approaches that of a CE FX.) Typically, when I hand a second run to someone who has not handled a Second Run, s/he'll say something like, "Man, that's flat!"; if I hand one to someone who has handled a Second Run, s/he'll say, "That's a Second Run, isn't it?" The only disc that comes close to matching the flatness of the flight plate and the feel of the discs in one's hand is the Discraft Z Flick.