I agree. If you are an ultimate player you can probably already throw a forehand better than most disc golfers. The Super-class series might be a way to get more ultimate players interested in disc golf if they aren't already. I don't think we need a new 'class' of lids for these events. Isn't it all about 'keeping it old school'?

It's not about keeping it old school. That's why there are Super Class specs not just a frozen set of already approved discs forever and ever. We expect new Super Class discs with hi-tech plastic, ones that are better for putting, rolling, forehands, overstable, understable, tiedyed, hotstamped and more to keep it interesting. However, the goal was to set the specs so ulty discs would still remain competitive even with more specialized discs. And, it's likely that any specialized discs will still throw similar to an ulty disc versus the major change required for bevel discs.

How many players throwing bevel discs today are still competitive and maintain their rating not throwing the latest longer distance drivers? It will still be the Indian not the arrows for Super Class just like bevel discs.

Dave,

I just received some Star TeeRex-X with a double stamp of the LARGE Innova "Star Stamp". Would these be First Run since they have the "Star Stamp"?

Dave,

I just received some Star TeeRex-X with a double stamp of the LARGE Innova "Star Stamp". Would these be First Run since they have the "Star Stamp"?



Could be, but I really don't know. You might try asking Mark Molnar at discgolfvalues. He usually knows about those things.

Saw this on the approved list -- Dave, what's the story with the Innova Groove?

Saw this on the approved list -- Dave, what's the story with the Innova Groove?



The Groove is a speed 13 driver with a big groove in the beveled edge to reduce weight. It is something like the Monarch, but more high speed stable and faster. It has a small high speed turn with a smaller overstability than a Boss or Destroyer.

Thanks! Sounds fun.

what plastics and weights [how light?] will the groove come in? when will it hit retailers?
thx again

Dave The new xmas discs say star PD on the bottom but resemble the test run destroyers. Just wondering what the disc actually was? Thanks

They don't feel anything like a destroyer when you hold it. I was thinking Power Driver?

Hey dave i just won one of the mini star stamped nightshift blue destroyers. What did you think of these in your testing? I cant wait for it to get here!

hey Dave how much more stable are the test run destroyers compared to the original detroyers? I cant wait till I get mine on thursday.

what plastics and weights [how light?] will the groove come in? when will it hit retailers?
thx again



Most likely, it will come in Champion and Star. So far, we have just made Champion down to about 165g. It will probably hit retail about February.

Dave The new xmas discs say star PD on the bottom but resemble the test run destroyers. Just wondering what the disc actually was? Thanks



They were prototype PDs. Not quite as stable as the actual run.

Hey dave i just won one of the mini star stamped nightshift blue destroyers. What did you think of these in your testing? I cant wait for it to get here!



The ones we tested were very stable. We were throwing them in the wind with seemingly no effect by the wind. We wanted to see if other throwers would get the same results with the other test shots. From our perspective, we got more speed, more carry, and more stability. We had to throw them anhyzer.

Dave, so PD stands for? Thanks

PowerDriver

Is that millennium or innova cause I've never heard of a Power Driver?

Is that millennium or innova cause I've never heard of a Power Driver?



Discmania

Dave-

Will you be adding any new discs/molds to the CFR list any time soon?

Thanks!

Dave, I got a kc pro aviar with the Asia open stamp and the plastic is nice! Also it seems the bottom is slightly different, smaller bead or a slightly rounded edge connected to the bead?

Dave, is pro plastic being fazed out? it doesn't seem to be as many molds as there was 2 years ago. any chance of a pro gator?
thanks!

Hey dave i just won one of the mini star stamped nightshift blue destroyers. What did you think of these in your testing? I cant wait for it to get here!



The ones we tested were very stable. We were throwing them in the wind with seemingly no effect by the wind. We wanted to see if other throwers would get the same results with the other test shots. From our perspective, we got more speed, more carry, and more stability. We had to throw them anhyzer.



with the increased speed, are they as fast as a boss now, or is there still enough of a difference?

Dave-

Will you be adding any new discs/molds to the CFR list any time soon?

Thanks!



Yes we are planning to, but haven't decided which discs yet.

Dave, I got a kc pro aviar with the Asia open stamp and the plastic is nice! Also it seems the bottom is slightly different, smaller bead or a slightly rounded edge connected to the bead?



Same mold, same plastic, different run.

Dave, is pro plastic being fazed out? it doesn't seem to be as many molds as there was 2 years ago. any chance of a pro gator?
thanks!



Yes, we have been phasing out Pro driver plastic. If we have a Pro Gator, it will be in the other Pro plastics like KC or JK.

Hey dave i just won one of the mini star stamped nightshift blue destroyers. What did you think of these in your testing? I cant wait for it to get here!



The ones we tested were very stable. We were throwing them in the wind with seemingly no effect by the wind. We wanted to see if other throwers would get the same results with the other test shots. From our perspective, we got more speed, more carry, and more stability. We had to throw them anhyzer.



with the increased speed, are they as fast as a boss now, or is there still enough of a difference?



I don't know yet. I haven't gotten a chance to field test them side by side, but probably not. The Boss, is most likely still faster.

Hey Dave thank you for the Holiday Calendar and the Disc!!

Just curious what is the disc? It says SPD on the bottom? Any clue?

Josh

Discmania Power Driver in Star plastic.

Dave-

Will you be adding any new discs/molds to the CFR list any time soon?

Thanks!



Yes we are planning to, but haven't decided which discs yet.




A CFR (Champ) Whippet-X would sell a LOT!

Dave-

Will you be adding any new discs/molds to the CFR list any time soon?

Thanks!



Yes we are planning to, but haven't decided which discs yet.




A CFR (Champ) Whippet-X would sell a LOT!



2nd!!!

Dave-

Will you be adding any new discs/molds to the CFR list any time soon?

Thanks!



Yes we are planning to, but haven't decided which discs yet.




A CFR (Champ) Whippet-X would sell a LOT!



2nd!!!



3rd!!!!!

Dave... my wife and I buy toys to be distributed thru our church every year and I bought a few starter sets to be given away. (dont know why i hadn't thought to do this until this year).

Anyway... just curious what the recommended MSRP is for the DX starter set? (i'm sure I probably could've talked with Harold or someone @ innova and gotten a better deal than getting them @ Play It Again but not everyone 'knows someone')

Reason I ask is because w/ tax a 3 DX disc starter set was just over $30... This doesn't seem like a good deal at all. I would think a starter set of 3 DX discs would be priced below $20 (counting taxes) to induce more people to buy discs and pick up the sport.

Please don't take this in a negative way at all... just curious (i know innova does a TON for getting newbs into the sport, especially w/ the youngins ;)

Stack, I guess its for the fancy packaging! According to Innova (I'm a brick & mortar retailer) MSRP for DX is $6.95, so, 3 discs would be 20.85 sans taxes. The MSRP for for the 3 disc DX starter is $28.99. Oh my!

Dave,
I was wondering what the number of alloted CFR discs were for C-tiers vs. B-tiers. Is the minimum per mold 25 discs?

Thanks,
Chris

Stack, I guess its for the fancy packaging! According to Innova (I'm a brick & mortar retailer) MSRP for DX is $6.95, so, 3 discs would be 20.85 sans taxes. The MSRP for for the 3 disc DX starter is $28.99. Oh my!



Thanks!... so this set was actually a buck below MSRP!

thats why I was asking... common sense (to me) would say that the starter pack would be cheaper than buying 3 DX discs on your own (i know packaging costs money but buying in 'bulk', which is what this is to a first time consumer, usually means getting a deal of sorts)

Dave... my wife and I buy toys to be distributed thru our church every year and I bought a few starter sets to be given away. (dont know why i hadn't thought to do this until this year).

Anyway... just curious what the recommended MSRP is for the DX starter set? (i'm sure I probably could've talked with Harold or someone @ innova and gotten a better deal than getting them @ Play It Again but not everyone 'knows someone')

Reason I ask is because w/ tax a 3 DX disc starter set was just over $30... This doesn't seem like a good deal at all. I would think a starter set of 3 DX discs would be priced below $20 (counting taxes) to induce more people to buy discs and pick up the sport.

Please don't take this in a negative way at all... just curious (i know innova does a TON for getting newbs into the sport, especially w/ the youngins ;)



The MSRP for DX is $8.99. For the 3 pack is $28.99. Of course the stores get them for much less or they wouldn't sell them. This being said, we do sell quite a few of these starter sets as it is. When a brick and mortar store sells DX for less than the $8.99 MSRP, it is affecting their ability to stay in business, promote disc golf, and make a profit. We don't sell retail so MSRP doesn't affect us, but it does affect the health of the industry. The things the disc golf industry needs most are brick and mortar outlets, (especially on site pro shops), and more courses. Brick and mortar outlets are vital for the visibility and promotion of disc golf. The thing the industry needs least, is cheap disc pricing, which won't support the other two.

Dave, can a different run change the shape of the disc? Also on the bottom of this kc aviar it doesn't have san marino on the bottom, the last time I've seen this was when the aviar p&a mold changed.

Dave... my wife and I buy toys to be distributed thru our church every year and I bought a few starter sets to be given away. (dont know why i hadn't thought to do this until this year).

Anyway... just curious what the recommended MSRP is for the DX starter set? (i'm sure I probably could've talked with Harold or someone @ innova and gotten a better deal than getting them @ Play It Again but not everyone 'knows someone')

Reason I ask is because w/ tax a 3 DX disc starter set was just over $30... This doesn't seem like a good deal at all. I would think a starter set of 3 DX discs would be priced below $20 (counting taxes) to induce more people to buy discs and pick up the sport.

Please don't take this in a negative way at all... just curious (i know innova does a TON for getting newbs into the sport, especially w/ the youngins ;)



The MSRP for DX is $8.99. For the 3 pack is $28.99. Of course the stores get them for much less or they wouldn't sell them. This being said, we do sell quite a few of these starter sets as it is. When a brick and mortar store sells DX for less than the $8.99 MSRP, it is affecting their ability to stay in business, promote disc golf, and make a profit. We don't sell retail so MSRP doesn't affect us, but it does affect the health of the industry. The things the disc golf industry needs most are brick and mortar outlets, (especially on site pro shops), and more courses. Brick and mortar outlets are vital for the visibility and promotion of disc golf. The thing the industry needs least, is cheap disc pricing, which won't support the other two.



thanks for the insight Dave! and just to be clear i'm only talking about pricing the DX package @ a cheap/enticing price... kind of a thing to get people hooked. DX and other prices are cool with me and I can see how people undercutting people is potentially harming things.

The MSRP for DX is $8.99. For the 3 pack is $28.99.



That was my bad. MSRP is indeed 8.99 for DX discs. I was quoting the suggested minimum retail price (SMRP which is 6.95) which is from the Innova Product Sales Policy from January 2008. I use those prices for sales for our monthly series/special interest events and club sales. Sorry for the confusion.

Hi Dave,

The Innova disc comparison chart lists the Roc as 4, 4, 0, 3, but I'm guessing that is for the Rancho Roc. Would you give different ratings - even half a point - for the Ontario and San Marino models? And would plastic type affect the ratings?

Hi Dave,

The Innova disc comparison chart lists the Roc as 4, 4, 0, 3, but I'm guessing that is for the Rancho Roc. Would you give different ratings - even half a point - for the Ontario and San Marino models? And would plastic type affect the ratings?



with the Rancho at 4,4,0,3, I would put the Ontario at 4,4,0,1, and the San Marino at 4,4,0,2. The Ontario is the straightest out of the box and is the easiest to beat into a turn over disc. Another number we could put on our ratings would be torque or turnover resistance due to flutter. That is where the San Marino and Rancho would be significantly above the Ontario. Torque resistance is useful in the wind, or for minimizing throwing errors.

Star plastic generally starts out slightly less over stable. DX and Champion usually start the most over stable, but DX wears much more quickly. Theoretically the San Marino should have slightly less speed and more carry than the Rancho, but I have not seen that in testing.

[ Theoretically the San Marino should have slightly less speed and more carry than the Rancho, but I have not seen that in testing.

[/QUOTE]

dave, ive seen more carry in the san marino when it starts fading. especially with a cross wind. but maybe its me when i leave too much hyzer in the throw.

Dave,

Any chance you can tell us what mold is up next for the stabilizing process testing? I think the Orc and Starfire would be excellent candidates :D

Is this process something that could work on any mold, or just drivers?

Dave,

Any chance you can tell us what mold is up next for the stabilizing process testing? I think the Orc and Starfire would be excellent candidates :D

Is this process something that could work on any mold, or just drivers?



We did some Orcs today and will be doing Starfires tomorrow. We were unable to test them as it was raining all day. It seems to work on all drivers, but I doubt that it will work on midrange or putters. Different structure.

Are Teebirds coming?

Does it mainly affect high speed stability or low speed?

Are Teebirds coming?



Yes. But they are not scheduled yet.

Does it mainly affect high speed stability or low speed?



Mainly high speed, but that may add to the impression of more low speed over stability.

Dave,

Any chance you can tell us what mold is up next for the stabilizing process testing? I think the Orc and Starfire would be excellent candidates :D

Is this process something that could work on any mold, or just drivers?



We did some Orcs today and will be doing Starfires tomorrow. We were unable to test them as it was raining all day. It seems to work on all drivers, but I doubt that it will work on midrange or putters. Different structure.



I was those Orcs Dave! When/How will they be distributed? Thanks!

Dave,

Any chance you can tell us what mold is up next for the stabilizing process testing? I think the Orc and Starfire would be excellent candidates :D

Is this process something that could work on any mold, or just drivers?



We did some Orcs today and will be doing Starfires tomorrow. We were unable to test them as it was raining all day. It seems to work on all drivers, but I doubt that it will work on midrange or putters. Different structure.



The weather's been nice here...


...actually thats a lie ;), just anxious to test one of those bad boys out!

Dave,

Any chance you can tell us what mold is up next for the stabilizing process testing? I think the Orc and Starfire would be excellent candidates :D

Is this process something that could work on any mold, or just drivers?



We did some Orcs today and will be doing Starfires tomorrow. We were unable to test them as it was raining all day. It seems to work on all drivers, but I doubt that it will work on midrange or putters. Different structure.



I was those Orcs Dave! When/How will they be distributed? Thanks!



The was a little more than one box of Orcs made in a range of weights. The will probably be available at discgolfvalues next week. Same thing as the Destroyers. Hopefully we will be able to test one later today when the temperature gets up to 50 degrees.

Hey Dave-- would you explaining how this process affects the disc shape and how this relates to stability?
thanks

Hey Dave-- would you explaining how this process affects the disc shape and how this relates to stability?
thanks



I don't really know. I came across this serendipitously. Recently the more stable driver discs have been the domier ones. But, with this process, the discs are not particularly domey, and couldn't be picked out by sight, unfortunately. They do appear smoother, and maybe that has something to do with it, but I don't know.

Hey Dave-- would you explaining how this process affects the disc shape and how this relates to stability?
thanks



This will be nice. I like stable discs, but it seems the domey ones get slowed by the wind. More stable, flatter discs will be better in the wind.
I don't really know. I came across this serendipitously. Recently the more stable driver discs have been the domier ones. But, with this process, the discs are not particularly domey, and couldn't be picked out by sight, unfortunately. They do appear smoother, and maybe that has something to do with it, but I don't know.

Good point, Yes flatter (like flat Ch XC) fly faster and farther UP wind. But domey float and glide farther in Tail or NO wind.

Are the Teerex discs available at the store the Teerex X mold? I get confused. I thought the Teerex-x is no longer being produced but I keep seeing people advertising new CFR teerex-X discs.

I would be interested in a stabilized TRX. I have one yellow one that is just way better than all of the others I have ever bought. It just bores through the wind.

I would be interested in a stabilized TRX. I have one yellow one that is just way better than all of the others I have ever bought. It just bores through the wind.



We have an enhanced stability TeeRex, but it is not the original TeeRex X. We will do the stabilizing process for the TeeRex for sure.

Thanks....for both.

So, what is the disc mark for the enhanced stability Teerex? TRX-X?

Thanks....for both.

So, what is the disc mark for the enhanced stability Teerex? TRX-X?



TRX-X is in CFR. The new run of enhanced stability will probably just say TRX. These are not scheduled to be run for a while though.

Did you run NightShift star boss's? I have seen them on ebay but I wasnt sure if those were them or not.

DiscGolfValues.com is the seller of those Star Bosses, so I assume they're legit.

yes they are legit and on january 2 they will have the mini bar stamp on them for you to purchase by them selves.

Ok great i just wanted to make sure because I was told that the boss was not going to be released until spring time.

ya the champion boss was relesed in nov. Cant wait till I get my star ones.

Dave, sorry if this has been covered. Is the Monarch based on the Wraith since these are Innova's only 2.1cm rim~width discs? What is your take on the Monarch's groove? Is it just for weight reduction/redistribution...or does it lend some kind of aerodynamic effect?

When will the grooved Boss (the Groove?) be released?

Thanks & happy holidaze to you and your elves! :cool:
doc

Dave, are you ever going to make the Gazelle in premium plastic?

the star bosses utilized the stabilizing process (what is it?), and are more (over)stable than the reg. champ? flat or domey? dx boss 150 coming soon?
thx again

dave, i picked up a disc today at the local trade shop. im having trouble figuring out what it is. its def a midrange, it has a 2002 tournament stamp and appears to be in somesort of ce/champion neon green/yellow plastic. the bottom is stamped QM and its 178, any info would be appreciated.
-ben

Sounds like a Millenium Q-Aurora MS

http://gottagogottathrow.com/discgolf/quantum-aurora-p-252.html

Dave, sorry if this has been covered. Is the Monarch based on the Wraith since these are Innova's only 2.1cm rim~width discs? What is your take on the Monarch's groove? Is it just for weight reduction/redistribution...or does it lend some kind of aerodynamic effect?

When will the grooved Boss (the Groove?) be released?

Thanks & happy holidaze to you and your elves! :cool:
doc



No, the Monarch is not based on the Wraith. It was actually based on the Dolphin of years ago. The rim was designed mainly to reduce weight while maintaining a useful flight characteristic. The Groove is based on the Monarch and Boss and will be made available probably around February. We will start to run them some time in January, I believe.

Dave, are you ever going to make the Gazelle in premium plastic?



I hope so. The Gazelle was a favorite of mine for years.

the star bosses utilized the stabilizing process (what is it?), and are more (over)stable than the reg. champ? flat or domey? dx boss 150 coming soon?
thx again



The Night Shift Star Bosses should be more stable than the reg. champ. The stablizing process produces flatter and more stable discs. When we run the regular Star Bosses, we won't use the NS stabilizing process. We will use a different process that will produce about the same stability of Champion, but with more grip and somewhat lower weight. Down to about 168g. I have already tested them and they are good to go. We just need time to run them, but it doesn't look like we can do a full run until February, unfortunately. We may be able to produce a small test run before that though. This will also push the possibility of DX back too.

dave, i picked up a disc today at the local trade shop. im having trouble figuring out what it is. its def a midrange, it has a 2002 tournament stamp and appears to be in somesort of ce/champion neon green/yellow plastic. the bottom is stamped QM and its 178, any info would be appreciated.
-ben



Probably a Quantom MS or MF. I am not sure why it only says QM instead of QMS or QMF.

the bottom is stamped QM and its 178, any info would be appreciated.


the First-Run QMS were marked on the back as only "QM"
it's a CE plastic QMS, aka Quantum Aurora Midrange Straight for the Millennium brand
really nice disc, if you like a neutral-stable mid. i hoard them :cool:

yummmy! thanks for the fast replies!!

dave, i picked up a disc today at the local trade shop. im having trouble figuring out what it is. its def a midrange, it has a 2002 tournament stamp and appears to be in somesort of ce/champion neon green/yellow plastic. the bottom is stamped QM and its 178, any info would be appreciated.
-ben



Probably a Quantom MS or MF. I am not sure why it only says QM instead of QMS or QMF.



Was there a run of Q MF?
Never seen any around, limited run, do you know how many there was?

Was there a run of Q MF?
Never seen any around, limited run, do you know how many there was?

Yes, but I don't recall what it was. Probably a better question for Houck. It may have been the Sentinel MF. We did a test run, many years ago of an Aurora like MF, but I don't think it was different enough to market.

the star bosses utilized the stabilizing process (what is it?), and are more (over)stable than the reg. champ? flat or domey? dx boss 150 coming soon?
thx again



The Night Shift Star Bosses should be more stable than the reg. champ. The stablizing process produces flatter and more stable discs. When we run the regular Star Bosses, we won't use the NS stabilizing process. We will use a different process that will produce about the same stability of Champion, but with more grip and somewhat lower weight. Down to about 168g. I have already tested them and they are good to go. We just need time to run them, but it doesn't look like we can do a full run until February, unfortunately. We may be able to produce a small test run before that though. This will also push the possibility of DX back too.



Hey Dave,
Does that mean you won't continue to run Star Orc's and Destroyer's with the NS process? Are these all going to be limited runs when you do them? Thanks!

So does that mean that the Night Shift Bosses are going to be like a speed 13 Xcaliber?

the star bosses utilized the stabilizing process (what is it?), and are more (over)stable than the reg. champ? flat or domey? dx boss 150 coming soon?
thx again



The Night Shift Star Bosses should be more stable than the reg. champ. The stablizing process produces flatter and more stable discs. When we run the regular Star Bosses, we won't use the NS stabilizing process. We will use a different process that will produce about the same stability of Champion, but with more grip and somewhat lower weight. Down to about 168g. I have already tested them and they are good to go. We just need time to run them, but it doesn't look like we can do a full run until February, unfortunately. We may be able to produce a small test run before that though. This will also push the possibility of DX back too.



Hey Dave,
Does that mean you won't continue to run Star Orc's and Destroyer's with the NS process? Are these all going to be limited runs when you do them? Thanks!



who will have access to these night shift start bosses? will any make it out to the east coast office?

they are on discgolfvalues right now

the star bosses utilized the stabilizing process (what is it?), and are more (over)stable than the reg. champ? flat or domey? dx boss 150 coming soon?
thx again



The Night Shift Star Bosses should be more stable than the reg. champ. The stablizing process produces flatter and more stable discs. When we run the regular Star Bosses, we won't use the NS stabilizing process. We will use a different process that will produce about the same stability of Champion, but with more grip and somewhat lower weight. Down to about 168g. I have already tested them and they are good to go. We just need time to run them, but it doesn't look like we can do a full run until February, unfortunately. We may be able to produce a small test run before that though. This will also push the possibility of DX back too.



Hey Dave,
Does that mean you won't continue to run Star Orc's and Destroyer's with the NS process? Are these all going to be limited runs when you do them? Thanks!



These NS discs are just limited test runs. Regular Star Orcs and Destroyers and others will not be done with this NS process other than very limited amounts, if at all. The stabilizing process will probably be done with Champion only. We have a newer process we are going to use with Star.

So does that mean that the Night Shift Bosses are going to be like a speed 13 Xcaliber?



Likely, but we are asking for feedback.

So does that mean that the Night Shift Bosses are going to be like a speed 13 Xcaliber?



Likely, but we are asking for feedback.



If i can go get one from someone @ Innova East i'll give you immediate feedback! ;)

I would love to throw a night shift xcal!!!!!

NightShift Xcal would be the sweetest disc on the market no doubt.

No I dont think a night shift xcal will be coming out soon or even at all. They just came out with the NS test run destroyer,orc and boss with mini star stamp. Then january second the boss with a mini bar stamp. later in febuary a NS teerex and the groove is comming out.

The test run destroyers throw really great.

Dave,

Can you to the stablizing process in champion plastic?(NS)?

[ The stabilizing process will probably be done with Champion only. We have a newer process we are going to use with Star.

Will we ever see a night shift champion destroyer or boss?

No I dont think a night shift xcal will be coming out soon or even at all. They just came out with the NS test run destroyer,orc and boss with mini star stamp. Then january second the boss with a mini bar stamp. later in febuary a NS teerex and the groove is comming out.

The test run destroyers throw really great.



are the test star destroyers ns? or just like a destroyer x? because i just bought one but it says star and im reading that the ns is only champ!

Dave,

Can you to the stablizing process in champion plastic?(NS)?



Yes, we are planning on doing the stabizing process to certain Champion discs like the TeeRex, but it won't be NS, just regular Champion.

Will we ever see a night shift champion destroyer or boss?



NS is incompatible with Champion. We just combined the NS with the stabilizing process to identify it for testing. It was an accident when we first did it with NS. This time, we did it on purpose for the test.

No I dont think a night shift xcal will be coming out soon or even at all. They just came out with the NS test run destroyer,orc and boss with mini star stamp. Then january second the boss with a mini bar stamp. later in febuary a NS teerex and the groove is comming out.

The test run destroyers throw really great.



are the test star destroyers ns? or just like a destroyer x? because i just bought one but it says star and im reading that the ns is only champ!



Just the opposite. NS is only Star. The blue NS Destroyers are the stabilizing test. There is no such thing as a Destroyer X at this point.

i really like the NS destroyer it is to overstable to throw backhand other than 300ft skip shots but i really like it for sidearm shot can get it out to around 325 and pretty straight
and i was realizing it is very stiff compared to regular star plastic

No I dont think a night shift xcal will be coming out soon or even at all. They just came out with the NS test run destroyer,orc and boss with mini star stamp. Then january second the boss with a mini bar stamp. later in febuary a NS teerex and the groove is comming out.

The test run destroyers throw really great.



are the test star destroyers ns? or just like a destroyer x? because i just bought one but it says star and im reading that the ns is only champ!



Just the opposite. NS is only Star. The blue NS Destroyers are the stabilizing test. There is no such thing as a Destroyer X at this point.



so what about a ns xcal???? i am veeeeerrrrrryyyyy interested in one of those!!!!

Hi Dave,

What are the Xmas discs this year? The labeling is S PD, or appears to be.

Thnaks and Happy Holidays.

Dave The new xmas discs say star PD on the bottom but resemble the test run destroyers. Just wondering what the disc actually was? Thanks



They were prototype [PowerDrivers]. Not quite as stable as the actual run.

Was there a run of Q MF?
Never seen any around, limited run, do you know how many there was?


never seen or heard of a Q Aurora MF, proto or otherwise. the only AMFs were Pro plastic (plastic is contemporary with the MS 1.3 run).

as for the Q-Sentinel, the first run was very much a heavy-CE blend. not full CE but close. they've got San Marino engraving. they lasted up until 2007 when a new run of Q was done, same time as the S-Sentinel. those two (second-run Q-Sent and Sirius Sent) are a retooled mold that is more domey and less overstable (has WWW engraving). the San Marino Q is the real killer... overstable and indestructible. perfect Roc rig add-on, in my opinion.

Hi Dave,

What are the Xmas discs this year? The labeling is S PD, or appears to be.

Thnaks and Happy Holidays.



Star Powerdriver???

I really appreciate, and look forward to the Christmas disc each year..

Probably my favorite present, don't tell my wife!!!!

Thanks to all of you who follow this thread.
Merry Christmas Happy Holidays Happy New Year

Same to you Dave and everyone else at this forum, have an outstanding Christmas!!

<font color="red"> Merry </font> <font color="green"> Christmas </font> to you and yours Dave!

Thanks for all the innovation and helpful advice!

a lid once dreamed of being fast and sporty and you make-it-so :D

let me also extend an early wish for a happy 25th anniversary to the Aviar!

anyone throw the test run star boss yet?

-
DAVE,
This years Christmas disc you say is a prototype Star "Power Driver" ...?

What kind of production run was that, quantity wise? Is "Power Driver" a generic name for a prototype driver, or was this an actual name considered?

It looks oddly similar to a TeeBird or something of that nature.. any more info on this mysterious Christmas Star PowerDriver.. :)
thx

ps- I like the green with red swirl attempt, subtle but nice

It is a Discmania disc.
http://www.discmania.net/

Dave - Have you ever considered a consolidated flight chart with Innova, Discmania, and Millenium?

hope you had a good christmas as well dave. i was wondering is there any flight difference between 11X and 12X KC Pro Rocs? hope to see regular run of champ teerex's sometime.
thanks!

-
DAVE,
This years Christmas disc you say is a prototype Star "Power Driver" ...?

What kind of production run was that, quantity wise? Is "Power Driver" a generic name for a prototype driver, or was this an actual name considered?

It looks oddly similar to a TeeBird or something of that nature.. any more info on this mysterious Christmas Star PowerDriver.. :)
thx

ps- I like the green with red swirl attempt, subtle but nice



The PD is a Discmania disc similar to a Starfire/Firebird/TeeBird. The Christmas disc was a proto run of about 2000, I believe. These did not end up being over stable enough to match what we were going for. The proto run ended up more like a more stable Valkyrie.

hope you had a good christmas as well dave. i was wondering is there any flight difference between 11X and 12X KC Pro Rocs? hope to see regular run of champ teerex's sometime.
thanks!


All KC Rancho Rocs should be the same in the same plastic. Unfortunately we get different batches of the same plastics that may produce slightly different results. I don't know that there is any consistent difference between 11X or 12X, as opposed to different batches of the same year.

We do not distribute Millenium or Discmania. They are separate companies so they have to develop their own separate promotional materials. They are free to use our system of ratings, or develop their own.

Hi Dave,

I recently purchased a CFR for the 09 Gentlemen's Club Challenge...

I believe it is a Champion Wraith X, however, I see the disc is marked WR TRX on the underside.

I'm only a year into this great game, and can't seem to find specific information on this disc. Thanks!

Hi Dave,

I recently purchased a CFR for the 09 Gentlemen's Club Challenge...

I believe it is a Champion Wraith X, however, I see the disc is marked WR TRX on the underside.

I'm only a year into this great game, and can't seem to find specific information on this disc. Thanks!



Mark Molnar of discgolfvalues would have the scoop on this disc. I believe it is the last of the Wraith X, but I am not sure.

So I threw the star boss on friday and today and there was some wind on friday but that thing is so stable with a backhand but I think after i beat it in it will fly beautifully. I also got an ACE with it on the first round I played with it, So it def knows how to go in the basket.

I just received some Champ Valks with no signature. Is that a new thing or a collectors disc? Thanks

I just received some Champ Valks with no signature. Is that a new thing or a collectors disc? Thanks



New thing.

Dave,

I bought a Star CFR TRX-X, and I have been playing with it for several rounds.

Two things:

I have a yellow Star TR that is more than a year old. It is still a little more stable than the TRX-X in the same weight. My old yellow is a FREAK. Long AND stable.

The TRX-X does not appear to be a different mold. Laid side by side on the table, I cannot tell a difference.

Question: Are these CFR's "enhanced" or are they a different mold? I am just curious, as i must be missing something.

PS: This is the TR I have been looking for... your CFR's always seem to be super well made discs.

Dave,

I bought a Star CFR TRX-X, and I have been playing with it for several rounds.

Two things:

I have a yellow Star TR that is more than a year old. It is still a little more stable than the TRX-X in the same weight. My old yellow is a FREAK. Long AND stable.

The TRX-X does not appear to be a different mold. Laid side by side on the table, I cannot tell a difference.

Question: Are these CFR's "enhanced" or are they a different mold? I am just curious, as i must be missing something.

PS: This is the TR I have been looking for... your CFR's always seem to be super well made discs.



The TRXX has a slight recurve on the flight plate, just before the nose. The TRX is definitely scheduled for the "enhanced" stability treatment, but we have not done it yet. The most stable versions will be the Champion.

Truthfully, I would just replace the TR with the TRXX and end all the versions. From my experiments the TRX-X is right where it needs to be. I guess if you wanted it flippier, then just throw lighter weights.

What is the name written on the back of the Champ TRX-X?

Are the TRX-X in Champ CFR's also?

if Japan rules were ever mandated for all PDGA play, what discs would be undoable in 150g or less plastic? would disc evolution be stifled or just altered?

Dave, what colors can you get Discatcher baskets in?

Truthfully, I would just replace the TR with the TRXX and end all the versions. From my experiments the TRX-X is right where it needs to be. I guess if you wanted it flippier, then just throw lighter weights.

What is the name written on the back of the Champ TRX-X?

Are the TRX-X in Champ CFR's also?



The Champion I saw were marked TRX, but there were some others that I think were mistakenly marked TRXX, but are Wraith Xes. I think Mark Molnar would know better as he handles the CFR discs as much as anyone. He can be reached at his site discgolfvalues.com or at Innova west most days.

if Japan rules were ever mandated for all PDGA play, what discs would be undoable in 150g or less plastic? would disc evolution be stifled or just altered?



All models are doable in DX. Valkyries are the present limit for Champion or Start, but we are working on that. In any case, disc evolution would not stop, drivers would generally be easier to accelerate, and fly farther, except upwind. Control shots would genrally be more difficult and would necessitate discs like the Rhyno and Pig to putt with in windy situations.

Dave, what colors can you get Discatcher baskets in?



The east coast office can make them any color.

I have achieved excellent results approaching &amp; putting with a 150 Goblin (DX or STAR) in pretty much any conditions (at least ones in which I would even consider venturing outside). My glow bag consists of 150g Ch. Viking, 150g DX Gremlin, 149g DX Goblin, &amp; 169g Z Extreme (only for tommies, thumbers, &amp; horseshoes) &amp; I have considerably more cashing success with those discs than with my "normal" bag.

Dave,
How many of the '83 Eagle's had the "TM" on the stamp?

Also, why was it removed?

Thx

What was the Innova Christmas Disc this year? I think mine says SPD.

Thanks!

It's a Discmania Power Driver.

Dave,
How many of the '83 Eagle's had the "TM" on the stamp?

Also, why was it removed?

Thx



Sorry, I don't know the answer to either. Total number of Eagles was 10,000.

Hey dave, I heard there will be full color kc rocs for the ice bowl. Is this true and if so does the stamp make them have flatter tops like the dx? i love flat top rocs and would like it even more in the kc. Thanx

Dave,

Will there ever be a CFR Glo beast?

Thanks

JT

Hey dave, I heard there will be full color kc rocs for the ice bowl. Is this true and if so does the stamp make them have flatter tops like the dx? i love flat top rocs and would like it even more in the kc. Thanx



I don't think so, but I don't know for sure. Full Color was an East Coast office thing, and I think they no longer have the ability to do it.

Dave,

Will there ever be a CFR Glo beast?

Thanks

I don't see why not. Sounds like it might be a good one.

JT

Hi Dave--I remember you saying that you guys were going to make dx bosses (150 please), but are you planning on pro bosses? if so, would you be able to get them down to 168 or so?
happy new year
steven

also-are you guys making heavy zephyrs? do you know if retailers should have them? i am only finding 150 and below.
thx again

They already made some and shipped them to Innova East a few weeks ago. They may have been stamped and shipped to retailers already or they're stamping them now for shipment soon based on Zeb's emails.

Hi Dave--I remember you saying that you guys were going to make dx bosses (150 please), but are you planning on pro bosses? if so, would you be able to get them down to 168 or so?
happy new year
steven



No, we are not planning on doing Pro Bosses, and even if we were, we couldn't get them down below 171. However we will be able to get Star down to 168g and maybe lower. DX is way down the list at this point.

Any one know where to get a test run star boss, like discgolfvalues any thing

The mini bar stamp test run star bosses should go on sale sometime today at discgolfvalues.

The mini bar stamp test run star bosses should go on sale sometime today at discgolfvalues.



I believe these are a test run of Night Shift Star Bosses, as opposed to a test of regular Star Bosses. The regular Star Bosses should fly stable to slightly unstable, the Night Shift should fly stable to overstable.

yeah at first he said the star stamp were going as sets and the mini bar stamps were individual but this is not the case, false advertising in my opinion just trying to make more money.

are they going to make DX Xcalibers?

are they going to make DX Xcalibers?



It's not scheduled at this point.

Dave,

Why do my day-glo discs sometimes transfer color to my other discs and what can I do to prevent this? Does this only happen in certain plastics?

Thanks for all the great discs lately. I love my nightshift destroyers and bosses.

Dave,

Why do my day-glo discs sometimes transfer color to my other discs and what can I do to prevent this? Does this only happen in certain plastics?

Thanks for all the great discs lately. I love my nightshift destroyers and bosses.


Actually a good question, I don't mind it too much but it is an interesting and relatively recent phenomenon in my bag. I'm rather a fan of my ESP Meteor with the Innova shadow stamp, though... so I don't mind it. lol

Dave,

Why do my day-glo discs sometimes transfer color to my other discs and what can I do to prevent this? Does this only happen in certain plastics?

Thanks for all the great discs lately. I love my nightshift destroyers and bosses.



Mostly, the color bleeding happens with DX that has been loaded too heavily with color. The plastic can't carry all the color and weighting agent, so it leaks out. Yellow was the main offender.

Dave,

Why do my day-glo discs sometimes transfer color to my other discs and what can I do to prevent this? Does this only happen in certain plastics?

Thanks for all the great discs lately. I love my nightshift destroyers and bosses.



Mostly, the color bleeding happens with DX that has been loaded too heavily with color. The plastic can't carry all the color and weighting agent, so it leaks out. Yellow was the main offender.



im actually finding it with dayglo/bright star discs... no clue about DX but thats where i'm seeing it.

im actually finding it with dayglo/bright star discs... no clue about DX but thats where i'm seeing it.



Me too. :( I have an unthrown white first run star destroyer that now has yellow places on it from being next to an unthrown day-glo 12x star wraith.

I just ordered a DD from discgolfvalues and it came in dayglo. I almost don't want to put it in the bag because I don't want marks on my other discs.

Hi Dave, who do I speak to about a TFR/CFR fundraising disc for BG Ams?? We're looking to possibly try and have 900-1000 players this year, and def. would like as much support as possible.

I just ordered a DD from discgolfvalues and it came in dayglo. I almost don't want to put it in the bag because I don't want marks on my other discs.



Ok, I've seen transfer from a dayglo FLX disc to a white Star disc in my bag.

I can see this being an issue on discs that you are storing, unthrown for resale or collector value.

BUT, you don't want to put it in your bag?!?! Do you also not throw your discs around dirt and rocks and trees? My light colored discs don't stay looking perfect for long, so what's the big deal? For a few weeks I had a really cool purple organic dye job on a white star disc from a basket that was under a mulberry tree.

Hi Dave, who do I speak to about a TFR/CFR fundraising disc for BG Ams?? We're looking to possibly try and have 900-1000 players this year, and def. would like as much support as possible.




Contact Zeb Campbell at 803-366-5028 or zcampbellATinnovadiscgolfDOTcom

Dave do you have an idea what date the Groove will be released? Also in what plastic and will it be a regular run disc or a CFR/TFR to start off with?

Thanks again for all of your time answering our questions.

I just ordered a DD from discgolfvalues and it came in dayglo. I almost don't want to put it in the bag because I don't want marks on my other discs.



I can see this being an issue on discs that you are storing, unthrown for resale or collector value.

BUT, you don't want to put it in your bag?!?! Do you also not throw your discs around dirt and rocks and trees?



pet peeve I guess.

Taken from a post at discgolfcoursereview.com. Dave I would love some insight on this topic.

"Disc speed, it just doesn't make sense to me. I was trying to find out the speeds of some discraft discs. and then innova confused me....

The speed is the rating of 'optimal' flight i think. And then from then on the discs characteristics follow. (you throw a valk at speed 9 it will turn, -2, as much as it will fade +2.) What i dont get is why not say a valk is a speed 10 turn-3 fade+2. Or a teebird is speed 15 turn-2 fade +2. (these discs hold the 2 longest officially measured throws respectively)

So what is 'optimal' anyway?

I looked into the disc specs online and i found that essentially the rim WIDTH is associated with the discs speeds. This is odd to me as i would have thought that the discs aerodynamic cross section (height) should dictate drag, and therefore speed.

If they made a birdy with a 25mm thick rim (same as boss) it looks like that is enough to make it speed 13??

anythoughts?"

Innova defines the flight characteristics very well on their website.

http://www.innovadiscs.com/faq/discrating.html

Just because a Valk is the world record holder does not necessarily mean it is the disc for optimum distance. I don't have the answer for why the higher speed discs have not broken the record yet. Maybe because they are more stable than a Valk. If that's the case, then the Boss and Groove should have a chance.

Dave--how light will the grooves get?
thx

Dave, is the a link or site that has the most current list of CFR/TFR Discs available to order? thanks

Current CFR/TFR list: http://www.innovadiscs.com/cfr/products.htm

Hoping some new discs will be added soon (Groove)!

Dave do you have an idea what date the Groove will be released? Also in what plastic and will it be a regular run disc or a CFR/TFR to start off with?

Thanks again for all of your time answering our questions.



We are planning on releasing the first run around February 1. It will be about 4 to 6 thousand depending on how well molding goes. There might be a couple of weeks delay getting to the regular stock after that. The Champion will be a regular run disc when we can get it back in production. We haven't decided on the disposition of the Star yet.

Taken from a post at discgolfcoursereview.com. Dave I would love some insight on this topic.

"Disc speed, it just doesn't make sense to me. I was trying to find out the speeds of some discraft discs. and then innova confused me....

The speed is the rating of 'optimal' flight i think. And then from then on the discs characteristics follow. (you throw a valk at speed 9 it will turn, -2, as much as it will fade +2.) What i dont get is why not say a valk is a speed 10 turn-3 fade+2. Or a teebird is speed 15 turn-2 fade +2. (these discs hold the 2 longest officially measured throws respectively)

So what is 'optimal' anyway?

I looked into the disc specs online and i found that essentially the rim WIDTH is associated with the discs speeds. This is odd to me as i would have thought that the discs aerodynamic cross section (height) should dictate drag, and therefore speed.

If they made a birdy with a 25mm thick rim (same as boss) it looks like that is enough to make it speed 13??

anythoughts?"



There are three separate things here. Speed rating is simply the inverse rate of initial velocity decay. Very much like drag. Most discs leave your hand at the same initial velocity. The higher speed discs slow down later instead of sooner like a Birdie. Distance is a separate issue and is related more to glide than it is to speed per se, though upwind distance is directly related to speed. An "optimal" operating speed is the velocity a certain disc needs to achieve the flight characteristic ascribed to it. This is mainly important for less stable discs that have a turn rate dependent on relative wind velocity. Relative wind velocity is much higher when throwing upwind than downwind. There are a few other factors that are going to affect performance like torque resistance and nose attitude at release, but we don't go into those.

Dave--how light will the grooves get?
thx



At first, we will probably only go down to 165-166gms, as we are having some molding issues at lower weights.

Dave, is the a link or site that has the most current list of CFR/TFR Discs available to order? thanks



To get the most up to date information about current CFR models, please call the custom departments at INNOVA East or West or email:

[email protected]

There are three separate things here. Speed rating is simply the inverse rate of initial velocity decay. Very much like drag. Most discs leave your hand at the same initial velocity. The higher speed discs slow down later instead of sooner like a Birdie. Distance is a separate issue and is related more to glide than it is to speed per se, though upwind distance is directly related to speed. An "optimal" operating speed is the velocity a certain disc needs to achieve the flight characteristic ascribed to it. This is mainly important for less stable discs that have a turn rate dependent on relative wind velocity. Relative wind velocity is much higher when throwing upwind than downwind. There are a few other factors that are going to affect performance like torque resistance and nose attitude at release, but we don't go into those.



that's good stuff! so in a headwind always bet on the faster disc provided the thrower has the necessary skills to get that disc up to optimal operating speed. In a tailwind all bets on the fastest disc are off(?)

i finally threw the Boss yesterday and it lived up to (unofficial) advertisements: this baby is an Orc on steroids :D
does that comparison work for you?

thanks -- as always -- for your time!

Dave- in your testing of the groove, did you feel it had the same distance capability as the boss? I would guess not due to the less gyroscopicness of the disc. am i on track here? would the fact that the disc is less gyroscopic cause it to loose it's speed and spin sooner? i assume this is what makes the monarch so controllable and predictable, but not as long as other speed 10 discs.
I love the monarch, and am looking forward to the groove.

lastly--when do you think we will see the regular run star boss around 168?
thx again

Hi Dave - can you give a brief explanation of what you mean by "torque resistance?" Thanks as always!

There are three separate things here. Speed rating is simply the inverse rate of initial velocity decay. Very much like drag. Most discs leave your hand at the same initial velocity. The higher speed discs slow down later instead of sooner like a Birdie. Distance is a separate issue and is related more to glide than it is to speed per se, though upwind distance is directly related to speed. An "optimal" operating speed is the velocity a certain disc needs to achieve the flight characteristic ascribed to it. This is mainly important for less stable discs that have a turn rate dependent on relative wind velocity. Relative wind velocity is much higher when throwing upwind than downwind. There are a few other factors that are going to affect performance like torque resistance and nose attitude at release, but we don't go into those.



that's good stuff! so in a headwind always bet on the faster disc provided the thrower has the necessary skills to get that disc up to optimal operating speed. In a tailwind all bets on the fastest disc are off(?)

Yes, in a tailwind, you are better off with a disc that has a lot of glide, some turn, and a small low speed overstability. Speed won't hurt, but by itself, without glide especially, it's not much.

i finally threw the Boss yesterday and it lived up to (unofficial) advertisements: this baby is an Orc on steroids :D
does that comparison work for you?

I think the Boss is a little more high speed stable and more torque resistant.

thanks -- as always -- for your time!

Dave- in your testing of the groove, did you feel it had the same distance capability as the boss? I would guess not due to the less gyroscopicness of the disc. am i on track here? would the fact that the disc is less gyroscopic cause it to loose it's speed and spin sooner? i assume this is what makes the monarch so controllable and predictable, but not as long as other speed 10 discs.
I love the monarch, and am looking forward to the groove.

lastly--when do you think we will see the regular run star boss around 168?
thx again



Spin does not have much to do with distance. The groove in the Monarch and Boss cost both of them a small amount of wind resistance. That is the difference. Most of the time they make it up on characteristic and glide. The Groove is particularly successful on low line drives.

We should be able to produce Star Bosses down to 168gm for sure, maybe lower.

Hi Dave - can you give a brief explanation of what you mean by "torque resistance?" Thanks as always!



Torque resistance is the ability of the disc to fight off axis torque or flutter or wobble, when thrown hard, especially into a headwind. Usually, the bigger the rim, the more gyroscopic force, and the more torque resistance a disc has. Other factors are aerodynamic stabilizing forces, that are separate from gyroscopic stabilizing forces.

The Groove is particularly successful on low line drives.



After playing Yucaipa this weekend I think I can see where the inspiration for the Groove came from - the low line drives needed on Holes 4, 8, 13 and 14? Not that you can't make those shots with discs you already have, but maybe you'd like them to be easier?

when might we see the star boss?

when might we see the star boss?



If everything goes well, by March. We will start making them in February.

hi dave-
what do you throw when you need max distance in a fairly strong tailwind? what do you use for long rollers?

thx

hi dave-
what do you throw when you need max distance in a fairly strong tailwind? what do you use for long rollers?

thx



For a long strong tailwind, I would use something lighter, (155-164g) domey, and somewhat unstable. Getting the nose down would be the highest priority. Otherwise the disc would just get pushed down.

Currently I use a beat up Star Destroyer for long rolls. For short to long, I use a Monarch. RR are good too.

Dave, i saw that the champion gummy rhyno was on the cfr list. the TD that runs our winter league says it wasn't available. have they been discontinued? thanks

Dave, i saw that the champion gummy rhyno was on the cfr list. the TD that runs our winter league says it wasn't available. have they been discontinued? thanks



Maybe East Coast is out of stock, but we have plenty available on the West Coast.

Dave on the 1st run x-out champion plastic bosses, the flatter ones seemed to me to be the far flying less stable more orc like discs. The domey ones being overstable (thought the domey excalibers were the most stable too). With the stabilizing process you got for star producing a more stable disc that has a flatter top i guess i'm confused at which is more stable.. flat or domey top... my domey 1st run star destroyers are all much more stable than the flatter top ones i got ..but the 2nd run ce valkyrie was the most stable run and has a very flat top?

it has to do with the wing, not the dome. in wide wing discs the dome is a tell of wing position and a giveaway in stability, but the dome does not produce the stability. therefore, with new processes they can tweak the angle of the wing without the dome thus making it both flat and stable. the dome is telling of different things in narrow wing discs, midranges, and putters. its about wing angle in comparison to normal wing angle, so it results differently in different molds.

Do they just let the discs cool upside down? :)

Dave on the 1st run x-out champion plastic bosses, the flatter ones seemed to me to be the far flying less stable more orc like discs. The domey ones being overstable (thought the domey excalibers were the most stable too). With the stabilizing process you got for star producing a more stable disc that has a flatter top i guess i'm confused at which is more stable.. flat or domey top... my domey 1st run star destroyers are all much more stable than the flatter top ones i got ..but the 2nd run ce valkyrie was the most stable run and has a very flat top?



All your info is correct but we will not use that stabilizing process for normal Star, only for Champion. Star will come in Echo, when we can, and new Star, which is a different process that produces a wider weight range and a normal stability. So, for future discs, expect the Champion to be more stable and lower profile, and the Star to be a little less stable, grippier, slightly more domey and come in a wider weight range. I don't know what to expect from Echo, but my guess is domey and stable.

Do they just let the discs cool upside down? :)



Nope. Almost always right side up. The exception might be putters once in a while.

All your info is correct but we will not use that stabilizing process for normal Star, only for Champion. Star will come in Echo, when we can, and new Star, which is a different process that produces a wider weight range and a normal stability. So, for future discs, expect the Champion to be more stable and lower profile, and the Star to be a little less stable, grippier, slightly more domey and come in a wider weight range. I don't know what to expect from Echo, but my guess is domey and stable.



Is this for future bosses or all future discs?

All your info is correct but we will not use that stabilizing process for normal Star, only for Champion. Star will come in Echo, when we can, and new Star, which is a different process that produces a wider weight range and a normal stability. So, for future discs, expect the Champion to be more stable and lower profile, and the Star to be a little less stable, grippier, slightly more domey and come in a wider weight range. I don't know what to expect from Echo, but my guess is domey and stable.



Is this for future bosses or all future discs?



Definitely for Bosses and Destroyers. The Champion stabilizing will also be done for most discs from the middle of our charts to the left. Or, in other words, to the overstable side of the chart like TeeRex, from the stable side, like Starfire and TeeBird. We will not use it for the understable side. The Star process can be used accross the chart.

Dave,

Do you have a time frame or projected date when the new star discs will hit market or CFR?

Dave,

Do you have a time frame or projected date when the new star discs will hit market or CFR?



Not sure about either but the Star Boss, will probably be first around the end of February, or beginning of March. It will be random after that. Some will be at the same time, and some won't be for a while. It depends on inventory and the molding schedule of each disc.

hey Dave, how long do you think until the Zephyrs will be ready?

We just got some special stamped heavies Friday (2-day air) in MN. So East coast has them but they may not have stamped them all yet.

Dave,
I want to start off by thanking you for your time and tireless effort in answering our questions! You Rock!

A couple of questions about New Star plastic. First, will old and new Star plastic continue to be produced? If so, how will you designate the different blends? I am assuming that it must be less dense if you can produce it in a wider range of weights so will it be as durable? Is New Star a replacement for the Pro plastic that is being phased out? Will all discs presently offered in Star be available in New Star? Personally, I would love to get my hands on 168 gram XCaliber! And lastly, how will your ability to run a wider range of weights in Star plastic impact how you design discs. Thanks again for your time!

A couple of questions about New Star plastic. First, will old and new Star plastic continue to be produced?

Yes, but hopefully it will fit seamlessly into the softer grippier Star we have already produced. The stiff slick stuff is out.


I am assuming that it must be less dense if you can produce it in a wider range of weights so will it be as durable?

So far testing indicates it is as durable.

Is New Star a replacement for the Pro plastic that is being phased out?

No.

Will all discs presently offered in Star be available in New Star?

Yes.

And lastly, how will your ability to run a wider range of weights in Star plastic impact how you design discs.

Right now the extra range is only 5gms, so it won't impact design much at all. If we can extend the range to 10gms it might have a slight impact. Right now I am throwing Star Bosses at 166gms. We probably can't run these generally as it would produce too many X parts. We have to run at 167 or 168gms, but that is still an improvement over Champion. The X parts fly great but they look bad. X parts can be run at 165gms.

Soft Star? Not like gummy soft I hope.

Soft Star? Not like gummy soft I hope.



Not gummy. If it's too soft, it's hard to throw side arm.

i wouldn't mind a little more softer star rhynos and some of the mid ranges. i just got a star valkyrie the other day and it is softer than the usual slick star.

Soft Star? Not like gummy soft I hope.



Not gummy. If it's too soft, it's hard to throw side arm.



The best drivers I have are all the "hard" Star...

Soft Star? Not like gummy soft I hope.



Not gummy. If it's too soft, it's hard to throw side arm.



The best drivers I have are all the "hard" Star...



same here!

I saw that star bosses are coming soon. Sorry if someone already asked this but is their plans for pro bosses?

Soft Star? Not like gummy soft I hope.



Not gummy. If it's too soft, it's hard to throw side arm.



The best drivers I have are all the "hard" Star...



same here!



I'll third that. Don't get rid of the hard star plastic Dave!

Hi Dave,

I have an Ontario Classic Roc.... As I am learning more and more from this thread I wanted to ask about this disc.

It has what appears to be an 'Ink stamp' on the bottom that says CLASSIC ROC. Is this something that was done after production, or from Innova? I was thinking this disc might date back a few years, but thats just my guess.

I have also been under the impression that 11x KC Rocs were of a 'softer' material...I ask if this is always the case as I just got a hold of one that seems to be a bit harder than others. Are there variations of this plastic that I am experiencing?

Thanks!

Soft Star? Not like gummy soft I hope.



Not gummy. If it's too soft, it's hard to throw side arm.



The best drivers I have are all the "hard" Star...



same here!



I'll third that. Don't get rid of the hard star plastic Dave!


I'll fourth it :eek:

I saw that star bosses are coming soon. Sorry if someone already asked this but is their plans for pro bosses?



Not at this point. Maybe not at all.

Hi Dave,

I have an Ontario Classic Roc.... As I am learning more and more from this thread I wanted to ask about this disc.

It has what appears to be an 'Ink stamp' on the bottom that says CLASSIC ROC. Is this something that was done after production, or from Innova? I was thinking this disc might date back a few years, but thats just my guess.

I have also been under the impression that 11x KC Rocs were of a 'softer' material...I ask if this is always the case as I just got a hold of one that seems to be a bit harder than others. Are there variations of this plastic that I am experiencing?

Thanks!



The Classic Ontario probably was decorated on the East Coast as they also do bottom stamp. That might be a bottom stamp.

The 11X might have been from the one run of softer KC. Most of the 11X were normal stiffness.

Soft Star? Not like gummy soft I hope.



Not gummy. If it's too soft, it's hard to throw side arm.



The best drivers I have are all the "hard" Star...



same here!



I'll third that. Don't get rid of the hard star plastic Dave!


I'll fourth it :eek:



I hear a call for stiff star CFR!

I hear a call for stiff star CFR!



Stiff would be okay in CFR, but slick is not okay.

Dave- What kept you from making discs like the Wraith, Orc, Boss, etc. 10 years ago?

Dave- What kept you from making discs like the Wraith, Orc, Boss, etc. 10 years ago?



Several reasons coming from different directions.

We did have an advanced design in the Python 15 years ago and the market largely ignored it. Possibly it was the large rim, maybe it was the 180 max size. Maybe the market wasn't ready for it. Small steps are more palatable, I guess.

Also, there were no specs in place that defined what a disc was and what a disc wasn't. There was the uncertainty of where the limit was in terms of certification. Molds are expensive, we didn't want to make a mold that wasn't accepted. The smaller the steps, the less likely it would be rejected by the market or the PDGA.

Plastics necessary to support longer wider thinner rims, has made it easier since we introduced candy around 2000.

Ergonomics was always a concern and frankly, I am amazed at how players have adapted to the wider rims.

And competition. No point in getting too far ahead.

I hear a call for stiff star CFR!



Stiff would be okay in CFR, but slick is not okay.



I actually think this might be the Holy Grail.

Super stiff.
Super tacky.

I have no interest in gummyish anything really... the stiffer the better. Stiff DX like the San Marino Roc run is freaking awesome.

Ergonomics was always a concern and frankly, I am amazed at how players have adapted to the wider rims.




Is it time to stop making wider rim drivers and go back through the slower stock?

I know the new San Marino Roc was an improvement. In fact, I believe it is the best Roc ever made. Maybe it is so good because you just recently re-designed the mold.

Would it be possible to refine the slower molds so the discs would run their DX counterparts?

It seems the Teebird, Eagle, Roc, etc molds we all designed to be used with DX (I believe this is correct). It would be awesome to get a Ster Teebird that is shaped like a DX Teebird, as the DX comes out of the mold with a lot of shrinkage and less definition.

It is interesting to note that many of the newest discs were designed around Champ/Star and they do not have the correct shape when run in DX due to the shrinkage.

We did have an advanced design in the Python 15 years ago and the market largely ignored it. Possibly it was the large rim, maybe it was the 180 max size. Maybe the market wasn't ready for it. Small steps are more palatable, I guess.




I still think the larger diameter discs have enormous advantage over the smaller diameter discs. Although I acknowledge this may be a minority opinion, I believe the current designs in larger diameter would out-perform the current smaller diameter designs.

Of course, plastic technology will dictate whether feasibility of larger discs (at lower weights) will ever materialize.

Do you think we will ever see a large diameter high tech driver?

I still think the larger diameter discs have enormous advantage over the smaller diameter discs. Although I acknowledge this may be a minority opinion, I believe the current designs in larger diameter would out-perform the current smaller diameter designs.

Of course, plastic technology will dictate whether feasibility of larger discs (at lower weights) will ever materialize.

Do you think we will ever see a large diameter high tech driver?



Possibly, but I don't see many people wanting it. Might be good for distance though where the glide is more important than the speed. Large diameter have more glide, more torque resistance, and better rolling physics than smaller diameters. Smaller diameters are quicker, more ballistic, and easier to throw fast than larger diameter.

id like to see a cfr viper again!

I still think the larger diameter discs have enormous advantage over the smaller diameter discs. Although I acknowledge this may be a minority opinion, I believe the current designs in larger diameter would out-perform the current smaller diameter designs.

Of course, plastic technology will dictate whether feasibility of larger discs (at lower weights) will ever materialize.

Do you think we will ever see a large diameter high tech driver?



Possibly, but I don't see many people wanting it. Might be good for distance though where the glide is more important than the speed. Large diameter have more glide, more torque resistance, and better rolling physics than smaller diameters. Smaller diameters are quicker, more ballistic, and easier to throw fast than larger diameter.



...but the new wide rimmed discs are fast as heck...

Couple that wide rim together with a larger diameter for added glide, and well...frankly, I would be interested to see it...

I still think the larger diameter discs have enormous advantage over the smaller diameter discs. Although I acknowledge this may be a minority opinion, I believe the current designs in larger diameter would out-perform the current smaller diameter designs.

Of course, plastic technology will dictate whether feasibility of larger discs (at lower weights) will ever materialize.

Do you think we will ever see a large diameter high tech driver?



Possibly, but I don't see many people wanting it. Might be good for distance though where the glide is more important than the speed. Large diameter have more glide, more torque resistance, and better rolling physics than smaller diameters. Smaller diameters are quicker, more ballistic, and easier to throw fast than larger diameter.



Well, what's next Dave? What is the next big leap? I guess that is the $100,000 question.

Hey Dave, wondering if you have the info on what the Top 10 or Top 15 selling Innova discs of 2008 were?? If you dont have that info on paper what do you think they are off the top of your head?? I'm about ready to place an order for the Ice Bowl I'm running, and I want to order what everyone is throwing.

the stiffer the better. Stiff DX like the San Marino Roc run is freaking awesome.



Don't forget that if these discs are to be approved, they are to meet certain flex standards. I'm not sure if they new sanny's did or not, but didn't matter since the mold was already approved anyway. :)

the recreational market may dictate what the best selling discs are and that may not jive with what PDGA members most like. Boss, Destroyer, Wraith, Orc, Teebird, Monarch or Roadrunner, Roc &amp; Aviar perhaps?

I forgot about the XCaliber ... heck i don't know :p

Hey Dave, wondering if you have the info on what the Top 10 or Top 15 selling Innova discs of 2008 were?? If you dont have that info on paper what do you think they are off the top of your head?? I'm about ready to place an order for the Ice Bowl I'm running, and I want to order what everyone is throwing.



You need to talk to the order desk people. They would be able to suit your needs better than I. A lot would depend on who is getting the discs. Recreational players tend to buy DX and less stable discs. Tournament players tend to buy higher end plastic and more stable to overstable models.

the recreational market may dictate what the best selling discs are and that may not jive with what PDGA members most like. Boss, Destroyer, Wraith, Orc, Teebird, Monarch or Roadrunner, Roc &amp; Aviar perhaps?

I forgot about the XCaliber ... heck i don't know :p



Yes, the recreational market does dictate most sales. We have several recreational models that don't sell at all in the tournament market.

I'd guess the Birdie and Wolf fit that category...

as far as innova goes, i find more dx beasts and wraiths in the water, and champion monsters, champ valks, and champion sidewinders in the trees. thats how i know what the recreational - one disc players are throwing.

and occasionally i do find a wolf across the highway.

Dave, have you tried to run the Jaguar in Champion or Star-plastic (... to add more stability to its flight)?

Dave, have you tried to run the Jaguar in Champion or Star-plastic (... to add more stability to its flight)?



No. I don't think it would be possible to make them under 200g. I recently tried with Condors and failed.

hey dave great thread. i would love to have a champ sonic, any cance? have seen one before, but couldnt pry it out of the guys bag. love this disc, but in dx, have found it to break where the grip lines start on the top, and these that i broke were not even broken in. i was also sent to herodisc.com to get these, but i get no response to my questions. does innova make discs for hero?

You can reach Hero Disc USA at 909-900-7639.

hey dave great thread. i would love to have a champ sonic, any cance? have seen one before, but couldnt pry it out of the guys bag. love this disc, but in dx, have found it to break where the grip lines start on the top, and these that i broke were not even broken in. i was also sent to herodisc.com to get these, but i get no response to my questions. does innova make discs for hero?



We make the Hero 235 and the Sonic. These are made in candy for Hero, but they only come in light weights.

I still think the larger diameter discs have enormous advantage over the smaller diameter discs. Although I acknowledge this may be a minority opinion, I believe the current designs in larger diameter would out-perform the current smaller diameter designs.

Of course, plastic technology will dictate whether feasibility of larger discs (at lower weights) will ever materialize.

Do you think we will ever see a large diameter high tech driver?



Possibly, but I don't see many people wanting it. Might be good for distance though where the glide is more important than the speed. Large diameter have more glide, more torque resistance, and better rolling physics than smaller diameters. Smaller diameters are quicker, more ballistic, and easier to throw fast than larger diameter.



...but the new wide rimmed discs are fast as heck...

Couple that wide rim together with a larger diameter for added glide, and well...frankly, I would be interested to see it...



I would love to try something like this... Not sure of all the science/technology/guesswork involved behind the scenes but I would think a boss-like disc with a larger diameter (maybe called the CEO?! ;) would BOMB!!!

USDGC distance show-offs next year over the lake... "Looks like Avery just threw a CEO over the lake, road and the entire soccer field beyond that"!!! :D

hey dave great thread. i would love to have a champ sonic, any cance? have seen one before, but couldnt pry it out of the guys bag. love this disc, but in dx, have found it to break where the grip lines start on the top, and these that i broke were not even broken in. i was also sent to herodisc.com to get these, but i get no response to my questions. does innova make discs for hero?



We make the Hero 235 and the Sonic. These are made in candy for Hero, but they only come in light weights.



do you kno what they call the sonic at hero? it may make it a tad easier

Super Sonic and Sonic Xtra 215

Dave, is the 11X KC champ Eagle an eagle-L or X? is there a way to spot the difference? i held it up next to a DX eagle and didn't notice anything.

where can you buy hero discs online?

herodiscusa.com

Hey Dave,
Just curious if you are aware of the activities of one of your Team Champion sponsored players?

http://www.hsvdiscgolf.com/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?7300

http://www.hsvdiscgolf.com/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?7183

I hope that Innova would expect a higher standard of conduct than this from its represenatives.

<font color="blue"> [borderline personal attack removed] </font>

Dave, is the 11X KC champ Eagle an eagle-L or X? is there a way to spot the difference? i held it up next to a DX eagle and didn't notice anything.



If memory serves me correctly all of the Eagles made back then were Xs.

They were both. I just traded off an 11x L mold.

Super Sonic and Sonic Xtra 215



fyi- ordered a super sonic last year in candy, was a large diameter fast back style disc. great for the dog though

Dave, is the 11X KC champ Eagle an eagle-L or X? is there a way to spot the difference? i held it up next to a DX eagle and didn't notice anything.


The X has a greater concavity than the L on the bevel.

Hey Dave,
Just curious if you are aware of the activities of one of your Team Champion sponsored players?

http://www.hsvdiscgolf.com/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?7300

http://www.hsvdiscgolf.com/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?7183

I hope that Innova would expect a higher standard of conduct than this from its represenatives.



The forums at the Huntsville site can only be viewed by members, so most folks reading here cannot access your links. I would appreciate a private message or email from you outlining what conduct you believe was so unprofessional or unsportsmanlike.

Sorry for the confusion, the club is currently making system changes to the forum so they require you to log-in. You can easily create a log-in to view the post.

Bottom line is that there has been a coup within the club that has caused most of the members to walk out. Really sad to see a club with such a long and illustrious history crumble due to the actions of a few.

Hopefully DaveD will look into this since his company name is so heavily associated with the individuals.

<font color="blue"> [borderline personal attack removed] </font>

Membership to the forums needs to be accepted and so far there has been no response from the moderator.

This matter is being looked into and we have received information from actual club members who were courteous enough to respond privately. Apparently this is a heated local issue with a lot of emotions. We are confident that Lavone and the club members involved will be able to reach a solution.

There are two sides to every debate and fueling the fire by posting chosen bits of information here is not helpful to the situation. Anyone involved is welcome to send a private message or email to me if you would like to share your side of the story.

I deleted the balance of this post.

However I do take exception to the statement that I posted "chosen bits of information."
I posted a link to information and ask that it be looked at due to its negative impact on disc golf, the PDGA and companies providing sponsorships.
If these affected parties don't care, I guess I really shouldn't.
Enough said.

Now lets get back to talking about all of the sweet new disc coming out this year.

<font color="blue"> [borderline personal attack removed] </font>



Please show me in the rules where you can pull a post for "borderline personal attack"
What has gotten into you people?
Are you making up the rules as you go now?

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Help me to find the "borderline personal attack" clause. I must have missed it. :confused:

Please delete this GARBAGE off this thread, this is to talk about disc NOT TO DRAG SOMEBODY THROUGH THE MUD ON A PUBLIC FORUM!
Bill do you think Dave really gives a crap about what is going on with a club he has nothing to do with?

I'm sure he does if it involves a sponsored player, i.e. an Ambassador/Representative for Innova and the sport.

This does not belong on the PDGA site. This is a private matter that should have been dealt with via PM to Dave D. and not displayed for all the public too see.

Back 2 the matter at hand Innova Discs, Hey Dave thaks for the Champion Panthers coming back any plans for them n DX, think they would be nice with the new DX plastic.

Hi Dave, Has there been any dx Xcals made besides the Japan Open ones for the sponsored players? Will there be a regular run of them (dx xcals)? Thank you for your time.

Dave D,

Is the 2005 special blend roc the most beautiful disc ever?

Dave,
When will the lighter Stars discs made with the softer grippy Star plastic hit retailers? What molds will be released first? Are Xcals on the list?

Dave D,

Is the 2005 special blend roc the most beautiful disc ever?



while Roc lovers should in no way be detered one iota by this: i don't believe Dave throws Rocs :eek: :D

that said, a guy so devoted to discs might just find every disc he makes the most beautiful disc ever. what aspects of the 2005 special blend Roc do you find most appealing? was that the year of the claw stamp?

That was the year of the Red and Blue SB Rocs with the bird stamp. I have a friend who swears by the Red ones. I agree that they are the best SB/Star Rocs made to this date.