That stamp was out 99-00. Not rare, but not easy to find. It was the first DX TB with a graffic and not the generic bar stamp.

Didn't one of the kids of an Innova employee draw that stamp?

oops double post

Didn't one of the kids of an Innova employee draw that stamp?

Probably Tom Bant.

What is the estimated release of the Champion Glow Leopards?

What is the estimated release of the Champion Glow Leopards?

Good Question! I think these would be great for a Tournament disc.

What is the estimated release of the Champion Glow Leopards?

Good Question! I think these would be great for a Tournament disc.

My 2 favorite Innova discs are the Leopard & the Gator. Both discs are unmatched by any competitor.

What is the estimated release of the Champion Glow Leopards?

I don't know if we have run them yet. I will have to check Monday.
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any time line for the production release of the champ katana dave?
or the possibility of a champ pd?

Dave,

I asked a few people on the details of this disc. Like how many total made and what other colors if any. Wanted to see if you knew anything about them. Thanks again.

It was sold as a champion cobra. It is a flat top cobra also.

Here is the pic...

any time line for the production release of the champ katana dave?
or the possibility of a champ pd?

Champion Katana is in CFR for now. The Star will be released probably late March.

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Dave,

I asked a few people on the details of this disc. Like how many total made and what other colors if any. Wanted to see if you knew anything about them. Thanks again.

It was sold as a champion cobra. It is a flat top cobra also.

Here is the pic...

Sorry, doesn't look familiar. The flat tops would say Ontario on the engraving.

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Dave,

I asked a few people on the details of this disc. Like how many total made and what other colors if any. Wanted to see if you knew anything about them. Thanks again.

It was sold as a champion cobra. It is a flat top cobra also.

Here is the pic...

Looks like the CE Cobra that was released at the 2003 Worlds in Flagstaff. Gold is much more rare than the black ones. I think there were something like 50 of the gold made. There's one on eBay right now.

Says on eBay there were 90 gold and 110 black.

Champion Katana is in CFR for now. The Star will be released probably late March.

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That is awesome! :D Hopefully I can persuade some of the Tourney Directors to get these!! Are they available now for CFR?

That is awesome! :D Hopefully I can persuade some of the Tourney Directors to get these!! Are they available now for CFR?

Right now they are being used for USMasters and AmWorlds. After that, we plan on having them available for general CFR.

So as a curious golfer and some what of a collector, i came across a Millennium Tachyon... From what I hear is that it is the Viper b4 the viper, it has a 95 am worlds stamp on it... Can i get any info about it from any one??? Should i chunk it or put it on the wall... kinda dont know what to do with a 15 yr old disc that looks new...

So as a curious golfer and some what of a collector, i came across a Millennium Tachyon... From what I hear is that it is the Viper b4 the viper, it has a 95 am worlds stamp on it... Can i get any info about it from any one??? Should i chunk it or put it on the wall... kinda dont know what to do with a 15 yr old disc that looks new...

Put it on the wall for another 10 then sell it on ebay or better yet sell it on ebay now.

So as a curious golfer and some what of a collector, i came across a Millennium Tachyon... From what I hear is that it is the Viper b4 the viper, it has a 95 am worlds stamp on it... Can i get any info about it from any one??? Should i chunk it or put it on the wall... kinda dont know what to do with a 15 yr old disc that looks new...

I don't know much about collecting, but I do know that the Tachyon was the first Millennium driver and the first disc to use the Millennium type plastic. It was an extra stable Viper type disc, but not the Viper. I don't believe it was ever made in Quantum or Sirius plastic.

So as a curious golfer and some what of a collector, i came across a Millennium Tachyon... From what I hear is that it is the Viper b4 the viper, it has a 95 am worlds stamp on it... Can i get any info about it from any one??? Should i chunk it or put it on the wall... kinda dont know what to do with a 15 yr old disc that looks new...

Viper was out B4 the Tachyon. I believe this is the only Millenium disc with a Innova stamp.

Bought a Polecat in R-Pro recently, I heard that is was retooled, I compared with an old one (94?) and couldn�t see any differences?
What are the changes and when was it retooled?

Good luck selling it. Probably be a better wall hanger than money maker. There isnt much Millennium collectability, unless your a fan of the company.

The old barstamped opaque CE/ Q plastic can carry premiums, and the CE-JLS is a pretty collectable disc due to the run numbers and the fact it says "CE" .

I don't know much about collecting, but I do know that the Tachyon was the first Millennium driver and the first disc to use the Millennium type plastic. It was an extra stable Viper type disc, but not the Viper. I don't believe it was ever made in Quantum or Sirius plastic.

so how rare of a disc would this be? lets say new and Black with a Gold stamp...

Not rare... is it a first run? ebay value is probably $15 if there was someone who wanted it...

Bought a Polecat in R-Pro recently, I heard that is was retooled, I compared with an old one (94?) and couldn�t see any differences?
What are the changes and when was it retooled?

The old Polecat got unstable quickly. The new one is much more stable and will stay that way longer.

so how rare of a disc would this be? lets say new and Black with a Gold stamp...

Id agree with $15. With it being black, maybe $20. Who knows though.

Are there numbers on it? Like 1.1 or 1.2 ?

Pretty sure the first runs were Star Stamped.

There's one on eBay now being sold as a Viper. Buy it Now $15

http://cgi.ebay.com/Old-School-viper-golf-disc-172g-early-run-star-stamp_W0QQitemZ290395797572QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_D efaultDomain_0?hash=item439cf03844

Id agree with $15. With it being black, maybe $20. Who knows though.

Are there numbers on it? Like 1.1 or 1.2 ?

Pretty sure the first runs were Star Stamped.

All Millennium Tachyon runs were stamped... (Except the ones with the nosebead!), there were 4 mold variations, do not know how many runs threr within those mold except for the last run, just one and it was really overstable (4.1).

The old Polecat got unstable quickly. The new one is much more stable and will stay that way longer.


Thanx Dave, when did you modify the mold?

Thanx Dave, when did you modify the mold?

At least a year ago. Probably two. That same modification was used for the Classic Roc. It made it look and fly like the original Roc instead of an XD.

My echo teebirds and destroyers, for me, fly much further than their star or champ counterparts. What is the word on the echo boss, how does it fly compared to the star or champ?

I found a 136 DX wraith for my son today. If a wraith can get to 136 can a boss get down in weight in the DX? Do you plan to run any DX bosses?

I love my echo boss, flies farther than my champion or star ones. It seems to have a lot more glide, and isn't as overstable. The two champion bosses I have are both Feldbergs, and the star I have is a 174, same weight as my echo. For me, my star was more overstable than my champions, and I haven't thrown a pro boss yet. People claim there is a noticeable difference between the earlier champion bosses and the ones being sold now in terms of stability...I haven't thrown any of the early ones that have a bit more flip to them. I think once this echo wears in a bit, it should have a touch of flip to it. I've only had one good round of use with it though. It's definitely the go to distance disc already.

Dave, does the east coast office have the echo boss yet?

how do we ask for thr new star gator-x's? do all the new star gators w/ a bead have the flight ratings on them? have they been shipped to retailers? thanks

Dave, does the east coast office have the echo boss yet?

according to yesterdays custom stamp order sheet they have eco star boss in weights above 170.

Wondering if anyone can help me identify what type of plastic a 2002 PDGA National Doubles stamped classic roc was made out of. Under the stamp is Circle R Ranch-Wimberly/Blanco, Texas. The back says ontario just like champ classic rocs do but the plastic feels like some kind of pro blend. You can't see through it when you hold it up to light and feels slightly grippier than most champ or ce plastic. Any feedback or knowledge would be much appreciated, thanx

I know that one of my doubles discs that i had at some point was a Millennium disc (from 2000, a Sentinel), and was like you described. Are you sure it's a classic Roc?

Pretty sure it's a classic roc with the initials CR on back. Although when you mentioned that I compared the mold side by side with a champion classic roc and where the champ nose seems vertically flatter the other is a little more rounded. Hope you can kinda see it in the pic.

My echo teebirds and destroyers, for me, fly much further than their star or champ counterparts. What is the word on the echo boss, how does it fly compared to the star or champ?

I found a 136 DX wraith for my son today. If a wraith can get to 136 can a boss get down in weight in the DX? Do you plan to run any DX bosses?


We have no plans for DX Bosses, but we have and will run R-Pro. They can go down that low in weight.

Pretty sure it's a classic roc with the initials CR on back. Although when you mentioned that I compared the mold side by side with a champion classic roc and where the champ nose seems vertically flatter the other is a little more rounded. Hope you can kinda see it in the pic.

Its a CE CLassic Roc

I have searched and searched and have found no information on this so I'm coming here for answers. I have a tourney disc from the 2002 Channahon Classic in Channahon, IL. If I remember right it's a CE Shark. It's a large diameter disc. It doesn't have a bead but it has a lip almost on the underside. I'll post pics, but I was just wondering if I could get some info on this disc and if it really is CE plastic. I'm pretty sure it is. Someone help!

I have searched and searched and have found no information on this so I'm coming here for answers. I have a tourney disc from the 2002 Channahon Classic in Channahon, IL. If I remember right it's a CE Shark. It's a large diameter disc. It doesn't have a bead but it has a lip almost on the underside. I'll post pics, but I was just wondering if I could get some info on this disc and if it really is CE plastic. I'm pretty sure it is. Someone help!

It is a Shark but not CE there was no "CE" Shark

But back in 2002 they hadn't started making the "champion" material yet. It was just CE KC Pro and DX? Am I right? That's really what I'm checking on. When did that switch happen when Innova switched over from CE to "Candy Pro" and eventually the now "champion" line. I have an article I printed off way back in 2002. At the bottom it's dated 10/18/2002 explaining the process they were getting ready to do of switching over. Well this tournament was a month before this article was printed and I'm sure the discs were made before that so I would have to say it's CE! Just my input. I'll see if I can get a clear enough picture of the article and post it for all to read. I'm so glad I printed that out 8 years ago! I've scanned both articles in that I have. Hope this helps on some of the confusion everyone has on this subject.

But back in 2002 they hadn't started making the "champion" material yet. It was just CE KC Pro and DX? Am I right? That's really what I'm checking on. When did that switch happen when Innova switched over from CE to "Candy Pro" and eventually the now "champion" line. I have an article I printed off way back in 2002. At the bottom it's dated 10/18/2002 explaining the process they were getting ready to do of switching over. Well this tournament was a month before this article was printed and I'm sure the discs were made before that so I would have to say it's CE! Just my input. I'll see if I can get a clear enough picture of the article and post it for all to read. I'm so glad I printed that out 8 years ago! I've attached a picture of the article

CE and Candy came out at the same time. The first release of any kind was in 2000 at Worlds. Clear Candy TeeBirds.

how do we ask for thr new star gator-x's? do all the new star gators w/ a bead have the flight ratings on them? have they been shipped to retailers? thanks

New Star Gators are X type, as were the beadless version. The new beaded run do have the flight numbers 5,2,0,3.

Both types are in stock and are being shipped. Mostly the new type. The beadless example was found in high sixties weight.

CE and Candy came out at the same time. The first release of any kind was in 2000 at Worlds. Clear Candy TeeBirds.

So it is a CE Shark? Or was there a distinguishable difference between CE and Candy or was it the same? Or was the "candy" like our champion material today. How rare do you think that disc is Dave? Is it just like owning another Champion Shark or is it a more durable blend?

Are there currently any plans to run the Discmania PD, CD, and DD in a Champion type plastic? Also can we expect a new disc under the Discmania name sometime this year? I have grown very fond of the P/S-PD and the P-CD. I was just hoping that mainly the PD might be run in a very durable plastic in the future. thanks for your time!

Also...I thought it was funny as I looked at those articles that the Innova website looks the same 8 years later. I've been hearing about a new website...any idea on a launch date for that?

So it is a CE Shark? Or was there a distinguishable difference between CE and Candy or was it the same? Or was the "candy" like our champion material today. How rare do you think that disc is Dave? Is it just like owning another Champion Shark or is it a more durable blend?

I don't think it would be rare by plastic type. It might be rare by date and hot stamp. That plastic has been differentiated by collectors as not CE. Collector CE was somewhat less translucent. Not opaque, but close.

Are there currently any plans to run the Discmania PD, CD, and DD in a Champion type plastic? Also can we expect a new disc under the Discmania name sometime this year? I have grown very fond of the P/S-PD and the P-CD. I was just hoping that mainly the PD might be run in a very durable plastic in the future. thanks for your time!

Right now, any Champion type runs will be reserved for Discmania fund raising. We are open to the possibility in the future of a mainline release.

We have been testing several potential new models, but so far none has made the grade except possibly a mid range for fund raising. It will be Champion type plastic, if it happens.

Also...I thought it was funny as I looked at those articles that the Innova website looks the same 8 years later. I've been hearing about a new website...any idea on a launch date for that?

We are in the process of revamping our website. It has been in the process for well over a year. We still don't have an official launch date yet, but we are fairly close.

In reference to the shark topic that was posted earlier. I have three of those and on one of them the sticker from innova says CE Shark. So now it should be reference Champion Candy Shark, correct?

In reference to the shark topic that was posted earlier. I have three of those and on one of them the sticker from innova says CE Shark. So now it should be reference Champion Candy Shark, correct?

We called all Champion plastic CE in those days. It is the collectors who have apparently differentiated it. We also had gummy CE.

I don't think it would be rare by plastic type. It might be rare by date and hot stamp. That plastic has been differentiated by collectors as not CE. Collector CE was somewhat less translucent. Not opaque, but close.

Gotcha so pretty much I have just a regular ol Champion/Candy Shark. Thanks! Looking forward to the new site!

CE and Candy came out at the same time. The first release of any kind was in 2000 at Worlds. Clear Candy TeeBirds.



I got one of those. Its f$%^ing awesome.

We called all Champion plastic CE in those days. It is the collectors who have apparently differentiated it. We also had gummy CE.

You can compare the Sharks to the last run of "CE" Teebirds / TLs ( with the Swoosh ) and also Valkyries and Leopards from the same era. The Vs and Ls even had the original CE stamp, but the value/worth to collectors is much lower.

Depending on who you are shopping with, Gummy CE can get quite expensive.



Dave, do you know the ration numbers for gummy discs? I was told once it was like 1 vs. every 250 discs?

Depending on who you are shopping with, Gummy CE can get quite expensive.
Really? I need to have an eBay sale. I have dozens of gummy CE Leopards, Valks, & Teebirds (and one Firebird that I know of). I thought the stiff CE was much more sought-after, so I've just been storing the gummy stuff.

Right now, any Champion type runs will be reserved for Discmania fund raising. We are open to the possibility in the future of a mainline release.

We have been testing several potential new models, but so far none has made the grade except possibly a mid range for fund raising. It will be Champion type plastic, if it happens.

Well that is some good news for the Discmania lovers out there. I know the DGR.com community is excited to know the possibility exists. we love our PD's.

Thanks,
Zach J

Really? I need to have an eBay sale. I have dozens of gummy CE Leopards, Valks, & Teebirds (and one Firebird that I know of). I thought the stiff CE was much more sought-after, so I've just been storing the gummy stuff.

Thought I remembered you tended to throw lighter weights? Most the gummy stuff I have seen is lighter, but heavy stuff does exist. Alot also came out towards the end, and its hard to judge as even the earlier run stuff tended to have a more champion mix, or look more clear than opaque.

Even modern Champion gummy carries premiums online it seems. Not much difference between them and most of the latest QMS' Ive seen, but whatever.

Dave, do you know the ration numbers for gummy discs? I was told once it was like 1 vs. every 250 discs?

I am not sure what the ratio is of gummy to regular, but I wouldn't be surprised if it were 1:250 or more.

Well that is some good news for the Discmania lovers out there. I know the DGR.com community is excited to know the possibility exists. we love our PD's.

Thanks,
Zach J

We will run Champion PDs very soon for a test run. If they are satisfactory, we will make them available here in the US. None of the other models are scheduled yet.

Thought I remembered you tended to throw lighter weights? Most the gummy stuff I have seen is lighter, but heavy stuff does exist. Alot also came out towards the end, and its hard to judge as even the earlier run stuff tended to have a more champion mix, or look more clear than opaque.

Even modern Champion gummy carries premiums online it seems. Not much difference between them and most of the latest QMS' Ive seen, but whatever.

I've got 150-class Leopards & Valks and heavy Valks, Teebirds, & a Firebird (or two). While "modern" gummy Champ is OK (I am particularly fond of gummy 11x Japan Open Firebirds), the mother of all plastics is gummy post-CE candy ProLine. Leopard in that material may just be my favorite disc ever.

Dave, just wanted to say the Pro Katana is the bomb! The only Innova distance driver I've had in my bag for the last few yrs has been the Champion Starfire-X, but I went out and tested my Pro Katana's today and was hitting distances of 400+ft without even warming up and stretching. I average 350-375ft, and on the really good days was able to hit 390-400, but those were few and far between. I feel so much more confident with the Katana in my hand to reach the super long hole we have in BG, such as the ones at White Park and Phil Moore Park. The Katana truly is a sick disc!

Its a CE CLassic Roc

Are you sure? It's completely NOT see thru and feels a little grippier than any champ or ce disc I've ever seen

Are you sure? It's completely NOT see thru and feels a little grippier than any champ or ce disc I've ever seen

Sure is I had some like this. It's the Same Plastic as the 2002 USDGC Rocs

Hey Dave,
I'm sure this has been asked a million timed before. It's about the Proto KC LE Rocs that came out after the Proto KC Rainbow stamped Rocs. I always assumed the 'LE' stood for Limited Edition. Is that the case?

Hey Dave,
I'm sure this has been asked a million timed before. It's about the Proto KC LE Rocs that came out after the Proto KC Rainbow stamped Rocs. I always assumed the 'LE' stood for Limited Edition. Is that the case?

Yes. Limited Edition. We also had Special Edition.

Hey Dave,
I'm sure this has been asked a million timed before. It's about the Proto KC LE Rocs that came out after the Proto KC Rainbow stamped Rocs. I always assumed the 'LE' stood for Limited Edition. Is that the case?

????? Have never seen one can i get a pic here

Yes. Limited Edition. We also had Special Edition.

Thanks Dave! Was 99% sure but wanted to check with the source.

Hey Dave just found this disc that has a bar stamp and says THE CHOICE OF CHAMPIONS FOR DISC GOLF on bottom 174 T. Is this a 1st run CE Teebird?

Hey dave...

Is it pro material or stiff on proto pre 8x LE roc? Just wondering. I have proto pre 8x roc that has pro material feeling. Thanks

Sorry, both of the preceding questions need to be answered by collectors. I really can't put stamps to discs. Ninety nine per cent of the discs I see are blank.

Hey Dave just found this disc that has a bar stamp and says THE CHOICE OF CHAMPIONS FOR DISC GOLF on bottom 174 T. Is this a 1st run CE Teebird?

It sounds like a Cam Todd Teebird. This is Chase's explanation from another thread on the board.


He told me they were stamping discs that were going to the Team members and used the old school barstamp. There was around one hundred done, maybe a little more. He said alot the ones that Cam stamped personally were double stamped or had minor flaws as he couldnt get the machine to stamp them right. He wasnt familiar with the term "Cam Todd Teebird", as either all the Winnicrew or all of the Innova Team recieved the same discs, but suggested they were probably called that because Cam sold the most of them while out on tour. I also think he said that some were double stamped with the bar log and a Winniecrew logo, but that info may have came elsewhere, as they are about 10 stories going around about these discs. Im pretty sure RickB has some left as well, Im not sure whose stash his came out of though.


Here's the thread: http://www.pdga.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=26641

Hey dave...

Is it pro material or stiff on proto pre 8x LE roc? Just wondering. I have proto pre 8x roc that has pro material feeling. Thanks

Does it say Super Roc post a pic would be more helpful. The only Pre 8X I know about are the Bar Stamp Rainbow the the BAr Stamp with The CHoice of Champions under it and both are Proto 8X KC Pro Roc the Super Roc is the "Pro" plastic

Dave, will the r pro rhynos be soft or firm like the more recent runs of pro that i have been seeing? thanks!
Patrick

Dave, will the r pro rhynos be soft or firm like the more recent runs of pro that i have been seeing? thanks!
Patrick

We are going to make them as soft as we can.

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Hi Dave, was wondering with all the questions you get about everything disc has Innova been keeping track of runs,stamps,material to help you answer those questions and for collectors knowing what they have. example i'd like to see is lets say 12x black aviars ,rocs ect. The black aviars had at least two runs while the black roc had one i believe. It'd be nice to differentiate between the runs somehow since disc plastic seems to be a fickle thing at times and different runs produce a better or different flying disc.

Hi Dave, was wondering with all the questions you get about everything disc has Innova been keeping track of runs,stamps,material to help you answer those questions and for collectors knowing what they have. example i'd like to see is lets say 12x black aviars ,rocs ect. The black aviars had at least two runs while the black roc had one i believe. It'd be nice to differentiate between the runs somehow since disc plastic seems to be a fickle thing at times and different runs produce a better or different flying disc.

I haven't been tracking any of the collector information. Tim was doing that for a number of years. Mark Molnar has been involved with the collector side and knows more information about that than I do. I deal with product development and production. Once produced, I have very little to do with the product other than playing disc golf.

Plastic is definitely fickle. All of the plastic we have used over the years has either changed, evolved, or is no longer available. Most of the manufacturers have changed, merged with other manufacturers, or are out of business. We have to deal with that reality as best we can.

Hey Dave just found this disc that has a bar stamp and says THE CHOICE OF CHAMPIONS FOR DISC GOLF on bottom 174 T. Is this a 1st run CE Teebird?

These were either the "Cam Todd" CE Teebirds or the "Winicrew" CE Teebirds. Story goes like this. The mentioned team members were getting CE Teebirds printed up. They chose the Innova bar stamp. These discs were being used both by the team and as fundraisers. The Winnicrew did thier stamping at the west coast factory while Cam stamped his at the east coast factory. Cam actually stamped his himself. And the easiest way to tell the difference between the 2 was that Cam's had an extra silver foil marking about 2 inches from the stamp at about 11:00. This extra foil mark was only 1/4" long. All of the ones I've seen or own are either white or orange with silver stamps. The plastic is the opaque CE with the familliar residue common to older ce. These were not 1st run CE discs. They were 3rd run.

When Cam switched to Discraft I bought his remaining inventory which consisted of about 50 of the "CT" CE Teebirds. I also bought a case or other CE plastic from him including about 100 1st run CE Teebirds and 1st run CE Eagles. If you go way back into the traders row thread you will find the "fire" sale I had

Hey dave...

Is it pro material or stiff on proto pre 8x LE roc? Just wondering. I have proto pre 8x roc that has pro material feeling. Thanks

Stiff, on both.

There is the Choice of Champions Rainbow stamped and an older Innova barstamp version, whihc has no other writing. Those are the hard ones to find. I was told one was a KC proto the other a Rancho Proto, but Ive heard lots of different stories. Dave may be able to elaborate on that...

Both are stiff and fickle. I have to store them in my house, the shop gets too cold in the winter and they will break. I found that out with a KC 8x that had a triple J-Bird stamp. It was a pretty crappy day after that.

the choice of champions bar stamp is on the special edition super roc i have also.

Stiff, on both.

There is the Choice of Champions Rainbow stamped and an older Innova barstamp version, whihc has no other writing. Those are the hard ones to find. I was told one was a KC proto the other a Rancho Proto, but Ive heard lots of different stories. Dave may be able to elaborate on that...

Both are stiff and fickle. I have to store them in my house, the shop gets too cold in the winter and they will break. I found that out with a KC 8x that had a triple J-Bird stamp. It was a pretty crappy day after that.

Ouch I take all my KC Roc out of my bag for the winter and as a rule it has to be at least 45-50 degrees out and no snow before I will throw em again I broke two 11Xs in past years and it won't happen to me agian Can't imagine breaking a 8X

This happened to me last Sunday.

It exploded like confetti.

Shteev,

How do you tell the difference between a choice of champs proto 8x and a choice of champs super roc?

i only know because of 1. the way it feels and 2. the fact that it says spec. edition super roc on the back around weight of 179 the disc i have is for sale and is in 10/10 condition if there was no ink. i might ust throw it since no one seems to have any desire to have it. there are also more details that would let one know which is which.

Ouch I take all my KC Roc out of my bag for the winter and as a rule it has to be at least 45-50 degrees out and no snow before I will throw em again I broke two 11Xs in past years and it won't happen to me agian Can't imagine breaking a 8X

Broke an 8x Roc and a 9x Aviar on the same cold Sunday winter morning about 10 years back. Started switching to different 'winter plastic' around November every year there after. Still break one on occasion in the cold (older Stingray last year, an R-Pro Boss this year), but it's plastic that can be replaced.

I have destroyed a DX Gremlin each winter for the last 4. I expect to do so again tonight playing glow golf in whiteout conditions.

i only know because of 1. the way it feels and 2. the fact that it says spec. edition super roc on the back around weight of 179 the disc i have is for sale and is in 10/10 condition if there was no ink. i might ust throw it since no one seems to have any desire to have it. there are also more details that would let one know which is which.

Alright. I just received what was advertised as a proto 8x KC, and it is slightly grippier/gummier than I expected.

Does anyone know if the proto 8x KCs are super stiff?

The 17 I have are all super stiff...

BTW, they feel exactly like my 8x.

Picture of the Proto 8X KC "rainbow ROC"

Picture of the Super ROC. This is the proto stamped Super ROC which came before the regular stamped super ROC.

The orange "Cam Todd" CE Teebird.

The white "Cam Todd" CE Teebird.

Alright. I just received what was advertised as a proto 8x KC, and it is slightly grippier/gummier than I expected.

Does anyone know if the proto 8x KCs are super stiff?

Yep mine is real stiff the way you can really tell is the bottom in the middle the 8X has 2 circles and the Super one big one I'll post pics later. That sucks.. Ebay buy?

The 17 I have are all super stiff...

Wanna part with one??????????

Can anyone tell me if this is a proto 8x or a proto super roc?

That's a Rainbow ROC. If it's not completely stiff if may be due to usage. I've owned a few that got softer over time. Nothing as soft as the SE Super ROC mind you, but softer than a new KC ROC.

That's a Rainbow ROC. If it's not completely stiff if may be due to usage. I've owned a few that got softer over time. Nothing as soft as the SE Super ROC mind you, but softer than a new KC ROC.

Thanks Rick! Much appreciated. Sorry for the thread drift.

Can anyone tell me if this is a proto 8x or a proto super roc?

Glad to see you got what you thought you where getting. Was gonna post pics for ya but you got the bottom of it. Enjoy it and don't throw it in the winter or any where you may lose it.

Love these Rocs !!!!

Dave,

I just found like 300 of the 2009 CFR certificates. Can I still send those in?

Thanks in advance.

Ok the Katana sounds sick...and asI have moved to colorado where Im throwin at about 6000 ft I need a less stable Boss? can any one explain the Katana? Is it coming out in Champ any time? thanks. I hope it can become a long distance Boss in the altitude and maybe even a roller.

Katana is aviable in Champ for CFR there was a bunch on discgolfvalues.com and there is some star around too. It is a a hyzer flip disc Got a chance to throw one yesterday and with min effort got it out as far as my destroyer. It was Pro didn't get a chance to throw it but one time but it flips flat and goes

yes, a hyzer flip for a BOOMING drive but with too much on it it tends to stay headed right(understable) i put one out about 15-20 farther than my star boss. the XG boss on discgolfvalues.com is awesome. it is grippy and i bombed that farther than anything. The katana is nice though. try and get a blem b/c the new, non-blem ones are expensive to be throwing imho

Dave, have you ever ran the eagle L in star?

Dave, have you ever ran the eagle L in star?

Yes. I don't remember the last time though.

Hi Dave,

What is the most over stable driver that weighs as close to 159.9 grams but not over. (current production, OR some older disc)

Thanks
Scott

I'd guess a Firebird

Dave or anyone that knows
What colors were the kc pro 10x teebirds ran in?
I have seen white, orange, red and yellow.

...Green. Possibly also black and gold. I have seen 10x Eagles in both.

DX & Champ Firebirds are easy to find. DX Viper is probably the most overstable in 150-class weight. DX Whippets are also easy to find in that range. I have one Champ Whippet-x (with lots of bubbles) that weighs in at 159g, so I'm sure others are out there. DX XCals & R-Pro XCals could also suit you. I also have a premi (~100g) DX Monster on my office wall, but that's a novelty disc IMO.

I have the XCals & some test run STAR Firebirds in 150-ish weight. Interested?

Hi Dave,

What is the most over stable driver that weighs as close to 159.9 grams but not over. (current production, OR some older disc)

Thanks
Scott

Current production Whippet, Viper, Firebird and Banshee. Older disc: Ram.
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Dave,

I just found like 300 of the 2009 CFR certificates. Can I still send those in?

Thanks in advance.

I have near nowhere as many but am always looking for that coveted USDGC spot from all of my years feeding my plastic addition, so I'd like to get a chance to mail some your way as well.

Should I just send mine to Innova West? Any special attention?

Thanks

Dear Dave -


Would you happen to know if any "Night Shift" Wraith's were produced?


Also, forgive me if this question has already been answered -

Do you have a release date in mind regarding Champion Katanas?

I'm referring to a standard production run of Champ Katanas.


Thank you -


Harry

Hi Dave,

In a previous post you stated that Champ Katana's would be a CFR run only for now, I have a few Tourney directors that inquirde about getting CFR Katana's for their tourney's and they were told they were not available. Is there a release date for them?

Thanks.
TRB

Champion Katanas will be put in CFR after fundraising is done for US Masters and Am Worlds. US Masters is almost done. I don't know the status of the Am Worlds.

Really liked the Tim Ski stamp on the Masters discs. Well done.

Think in the future, you could copy his sig and apply that to stamp as opposed to the standard print? I think that would pop off real cool.

Thanks Dave.

When tour pros talk about 11X teebrids, what do they mean>? I love teebirds and i throw 167 Star for long controlled annys and I have 2 175 star for all teebird shots?
what are 11X, Champ? Star? what are they doing that regular star are not? are new star called 12X ???? thanks

Here's an example-

http://cgi.ebay.com/Innova-Champion-KC-Pro-11x-time-Teebird-and-Star-TL_W0QQitemZ270526307398QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_Defa ultDomain_0?hash=item3efc9fdc46#ht_500wt_975

The 11x is on the left. The coveted 11x's are all clear and heavy. They are overstable and have lots of glide.

ok so old KC Pro Teebirds, I guess are money to alot of pros. I love my Star and have been very happy with 175 White Star Teebirds, all have been way overstable and stayed that way and my teebirds glide great. So thanks
I was wondering what all the fuss was about

Ok all your KC whippet throwers, you FLX Drone guys, you Champ Gator guys , and those few Champ / DX -- Viper guys/….WATCH OUT. Gateway just made a disc that might just trump all your dreams. Dave finally “after years of me whining”…put out an E—Demon. It skips, its crazy over stable, yet controllable. DUDE s its off the CHAINS. It is controllable and over stable to handle any up shot with precision you need or can handle. Please for your good try one..
E Demon…..

Also I think they mean the 11x world champ stamp on the disc as he is 12x now and they like the plastic on the champ teebirds on the 11x

ok so old KC Pro Teebirds, I guess are money to alot of pros. I love my Star and have been very happy with 175 White Star Teebirds, all have been way overstable and stayed that way and my teebirds glide great. So thanks
I was wondering what all the fuss was about

There are some Champ Teebirds that have the Champion Stamp but below it they say 11X or 12X World Champion and alot of those are opaque plastic and are the nearest thing to "CE" plastic there is they are not KC Pros. If you don't have any KC Pro older stuff dont bother getting any it will cost you to get it and then you like it and want more. Alot of people got use to those older discs and love them. I know I am one of those people I throw alot of CE stuff but if you lose it. One you'll kick yourself Two it'll be pricey to get another. On another note if you find some for a good price buy em hang on to them and trade sell for what Ya want. If I were you Id just stick to what your throwing now.

yeah I plan on it, I love the Star white teebirds and can do just about anything i want with them. I do however have 1 CE old school leapord cause its so much better than new plastic ones. but i only throw it occasionaly on controlled annys so I shouldnt lose it...

Ok all your KC whippet throwers, you FLX Drone guys, you Champ Gator guys , and those few Champ / DX -- Viper guys/�.WATCH OUT. Gateway just made a disc that might just trump all your dreams. Dave finally �after years of me whining��put out an E�Demon. It skips, its crazy over stable, yet controllable. DUDE s its off the CHAINS. It is controllable and over stable to handle any up shot with precision you need or can handle. Please for your good try one..
E Demon�..

Theres been more batches done than that. Good thread drift/ plug though.

This may be a dumb question, but were all the Orcs produced for the 2006 Am Worlds in Tulsa Special Blend. I have one with a big buffalo stamp, and the only Special Blends I have seen to this point have actually said Special Blend on the stamp.

Yes. Thats an SB

Dave,

Can I send in my old CFR cert's for a chance at some shwag?

Thanks

Dave,

Can I send in my old CFR cert's for a chance at some shwag?

Thanks

2nd that question, I also have some older certs (2007,2008)?

I have upwards of a thousand older CFR certificates. Seriously. Most are leftovers from former CFR orders over the last few years.

Dave - can you look at the pics and tell if this disc is a Roc?

Thanks

The 2009 are still fine, but I don't know what the answer is on the others. They are supposed to be sent to the address on the certificate.

Dave - can you look at the pics and tell if this disc is a Roc?

Thanks

I can't tell if it is or not from the pictures. I would lean toward not.

This may be a dumb question, but were all the Orcs produced for the 2006 Am Worlds in Tulsa Special Blend. I have one with a big buffalo stamp, and the only Special Blends I have seen to this point have actually said Special Blend on the stamp.


All were Special blends. The first release was the Tulsa stamp and it came in red or blue, then the buffalo, also available in red or blue. The last stamp released was the scissor tail and it came in red blue or white. There were a total of 2006 produced across all stamps.

They fly nice, don't they?

Dave,

Is there any chance you could run some green echo star mini drivers? That would be SWEET!!

Thanks

Dave,

Is there any chance you could run some green echo star mini drivers? That would be SWEET!!

Thanks

That's a good idea. I will try to remember to give it a shot.

Thanks

Any plans for more champ whippets?

Any plans for more champ whippets?

Yes, eventually, but not immediately.

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I tell you what I love the Ram and try to find them when I can, But for any champ whippet guys, Go throw a Champ Viper, sweet disc, great hyzer, great skip, great for windy up-shots..

I tell you what I love the Ram and try to find them when I can, But for any champ whippet guys, Go throw a Champ Viper, sweet disc, great hyzer, great skip, great for windy up-shots..

Just bought two champ vipers because i couldnt find whippets, as soon as i purchased i found two sources locally for whippets. Probably end up buying a few whippets also.

Yes, eventually, but not immediately.

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Will they be like the 1st runs or the glows? The glows have more of a dome than the 1st run champs would like to see them more like the frist runs.

where would one purchase a champ viper?

Will they be like the 1st runs or the glows? The glows have more of a dome than the 1st run champs would like to see them more like the frist runs.

Lower profile is better, but we have to work with what we have at the time.

where would one purchase a champ viper?

They're TFR discs normally. I've seen them on DGV from time to time.

If you're interested in looking outside of Innova, Lat 64 has a disc called an XXX that super flat, super overstable, and not super fast. And it's a production disc.

I also think a Z Extreme was similar to a Champ Viper.
Although Extremes are not super easy to find, they're out there.

I too like the XXX, but for me it was more of a driver, where the Viper and Extreme are mids.

.02

Prime discs has xtremes from MSDGC 2007 for $20. I bought 4 a year ago at $10 each.

Dave-when will see the champ gator as a regular production disc?
thanks

where would one purchase a champ viper?

Being in oregon I would bet drew has one or more. maybe gawain? I will have three here soon up in washington. i am willing to part with one PM if interested.

Dave,
Did you get injured at the Wintertime Open?

Dave-when will see the champ gator as a regular production disc?
thanks


Sorry, I don't have an answer for you at this time.
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Dave,
Did you get injured at the Wintertime Open?

No, I got sick about a half an hour before the round. Had to go home.

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Did Innova make a Champ. Glow Boss?

Did Innova make a Champ. Glow Boss?

No, it's too difficult to maintain weight.

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Sorry, I don't have an answer for you at this time.
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okay. so when do you expect the beaded gators in star plastic to hit retailers? there are a few cfr's out there, but they are hard to find, pricey, and seem to be much more domey than the original champ gators. Lot's of folks love the flatter beaded gator. been waiting along time for more of these. not to press the issue, just curious.

edit: just found some cfr gators. I assume all champion material gators (cfr) have the bead, correct?

thanks again Dave

okay. so when do you expect the beaded gators in star plastic to hit retailers? there are a few cfr's out there, but they are hard to find, pricey, and seem to be much more domey than the original champ gators. Lot's of folks love the flatter beaded gator. been waiting along time for more of these. not to press the issue, just curious.

edit: just found some cfr gators. I assume all champion material gators (cfr) have the bead, correct?

thanks again Dave

Correct.. All CFR Gators are champ and have the bead. All the ones that I have seen and own have more dome to them than the original champs.

-Chris

Dave,
Sure this has been asked in the past but I don't see it.
Why are Innova's weights so off alot of times. I find older plasatic to be truer to the weights that are on the disc. I took 5 Aviars and weighed em on a Gram scale 1-10X 2-11Xs and 2 12X Kc Pros. 10X says 175 weighed=175. 11Xs both say 173 weighed one is 172 one 174 Now the 12Xs both say 175 weighed one is 173 other 176. I'll have to reweigh the 12Xs to make sure I don't have it inmy bag at any NTs or A tiers or any other for that matter.
Why if max weight on Aviars is 175 do I find a 176. I also weighed a 180 Roc a Special Blend from 06 it weighs 188. Was wondering why it is so overstable LOL

So i picked up a Champ Viper and ended up within a debate with someone... Like many from what i hear, the champ viper can and usually does weigh more then 180, so does that mean that it is not legal to use in a tourny if there is no weight on it or when i do weigh it it is more then 180g?

Thank you...

Dave,
Sure this has been asked in the past but I don't see it.
Why are Innova's weights so off alot of times. I find older plasatic to be truer to the weights that are on the disc. I took 5 Aviars and weighed em on a Gram scale 1-10X 2-11Xs and 2 12X Kc Pros. 10X says 175 weighed=175. 11Xs both say 173 weighed one is 172 one 174 Now the 12Xs both say 175 weighed one is 173 other 176. I'll have to reweigh the 12Xs to make sure I don't have it inmy bag at any NTs or A tiers or any other for that matter.
Why if max weight on Aviars is 175 do I find a 176. I also weighed a 180 Roc a Special Blend from 06 it weighs 188. Was wondering why it is so overstable LOL

The scales are zeroed every morning and every afternoon, but they still can be affected by the cooling fans or a slight stick occasionally. Also operators can goof. We tried digital scales, but they were worse. A 188 Roc is way off and should never have gotten by. A 176gm Aviar is legal. Discs made of urethane, (Star, Pro, Champ.) are affected by the hygroscopic nature of the plastic. They can absorb as much as 1-3gms of water.

So i picked up a Champ Viper and ended up within a debate with someone... Like many from what i hear, the champ viper can and usually does weigh more then 180, so does that mean that it is not legal to use in a tourny if there is no weight on it or when i do weigh it it is more then 180g?

Thank you...

Vipers may be legal up to 182, but am not sure.

I am. 180.1g is the limit for Vipers. http://www.pdga.com/files/documents/PDGA_approved_discs_12309.pdf

so would the "fluke escapes" of the over weight discs bring or remove the value of the disc, well other then the fact that you cant throw it in Tournys.

I think u can still throw the discs if they were made with the same mold that the pdga approved and the process was not changed to make a disc overweight, as far as pricing I don't think it would be effected one way or another.

Dave, thanks for running Champion PDs. The folks at DGR will be pleased.

Dave, what's up with the "New" Teebirds on DGV?

https://www.discgolfvalues.com/store/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=395

They are made in a very sweet clear/pearly looking Champion material and offer the modified grip of a beefier feel to the rim.

Is it just a plastic thing, is there a difference in the mold, or is the disc somehow changed (perhaps stabilized)?

dave! thank gawd you ran some champ pds. thanks to you,my wish has been fulfilled. thanks again for listening to those of us who kept pestering you about them :D

Dave, what's up with the "New" Teebirds on DGV?

https://www.discgolfvalues.com/store/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=395



Is it just a plastic thing, is there a difference in the mold, or is the disc somehow changed (perhaps stabilized)?

The mold was modified slightly to be able to run Champion plastic in heavier weights without adding a weighting agent that clouds it. The result is a TeeBird that flies just like a TeeBird but feels a little beefier in your hand, because it is a little beefier. The regular TeeBird is still in production too.

I'll third the THANKS FOR CHAMPION PDS!!!!!

I think u can still throw the discs if they were made with the same mold that the pdga approved and the process was not changed to make a disc overweight, as far as pricing I don't think it would be effected one way or another.

Sure you can throw them, just not legally in PDGA-sanctioned play.

Discs made of urethane, (Star, Pro, Champ.) are affected by the hygroscopic nature of the plastic. They can absorb as much as 1-3gms of water.

That explains why you get a nice hissing noise and steam when you microwave a disc.

One more big THANK YOU from me(and all of DGR) for champ PD's. thank's for listening!

Dave,

Just to clarify, the new beefier TBs fly the same as current champion TBs? Do they have the "CA" or the "CAL" mold engraving?

How are the new rancho roc "R+"s different, in flight and in feel?

Thanks

and it seems that Star Teebirds that say *T are less HSS and more glide, and Teebirds that say TB are more HSS ? any one else notice...

so the change in Teebird is just Champion or star runs too.

Perfect timing to ask this question since we're talking about Teebirds. I went by the local PIAS and pick up an interesting disc. The stamp caught my eye first.

PDGA Amateur World MMI (2001) Disc Golf Championships - Nashville, Tennessee.

Picked it up and it is a Teebird and it feels like 10x plastic. Can anyone confirm the discs that had this stamp?

Thanks in advance for the info.

Dave,

Just to clarify, the new beefier TBs fly the same as current champion TBs? Do they have the "CA" or the "CAL" mold engraving?

How are the new rancho roc "R+"s different, in flight and in feel?

Thanks

I will have to look at the engraving when I get a chance. Both the new Rancho Roc (R+) and the new TBs fly the same, look the same, but feel a little beefier. Some will prefer the beefier rim, some won't, I imagine. They both mold up easier and make better eye candy, but I couldn't say either is a better Roc or a better TB. I personally like them just because the rim feels better in my hand.

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so the change in Teebird is just Champion or star runs too.

For now. We want to see what the preference is in the field. If everyone likes it, we will run the + mold. If not, we will stay will the old mold. For now, it has been run in Champion and Glow Champion. These will be segregated into the tournament discs section.
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For now. We want to see what the preference is in the field. If everyone likes it, we will run the + mold. If not, we will stay will the old mold. For now, it has been run in Champion and Glow Champion. These will be segregated into the tournament discs section.


so will we be able to tell the difference other than just the beefier rim? and how big is the difference? easy to tell them apart?

i just sliced my champion tee-bird on barbed wire and was gonna head out to buy a new one this weekend.

by beefier, do you mean wider or deeper or both?
thanks

so will we be able to tell the difference other than just the beefier rim? and how big is the difference? easy to tell them apart?

i just sliced my champion tee-bird on barbed wire and was gonna head out to buy a new one this weekend.

Some people won't be able to tell the difference. It is the Rancho Cal mold rather than the Ca. If you're a regular TeeBird thrower you will probably be able to tell fairly easily. The rim is a little fuller, but not wider where you can see it. You have to feel it.

Question: The Destroyers in CFR plastic could be found with real domey tops. these domey tops were nice and over stable and had great glide compared to the more flat top versions. Now that they are regular Champion production I can hardly find any with Domey Tops?? why is that? Are regular productions made diff and thus not producing domey tops? As far as I know the Domey Ch destroyers and Domey Top Forces are more love by people that throw them? Can we get Domey Top Champ Destroyers..

Question: The Destroyers in CFR plastic could be found with real domey tops. these domey tops were nice and over stable and had great glide compared to the more flat top versions. Now that they are regular Champion production I can hardly find any with Domey Tops?? why is that? Are regular productions made diff and thus not producing domey tops? As far as I know the Domey Ch destroyers and Domey Top Forces are more love by people that throw them? Can we get Domey Top Champ Destroyers..

There is a split as to whether domier is better or not. While it is true that the domier Destroyers have a little more glide, they also have a little less speed. While I personally prefer the domier discs, many player don't like domey anything. All this being said, we don't try to make them domey or not, but we do try to make them more stable than the Star version.
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ok So can I get Domey regular champion models? are they being produced? is it a batch by batch issue? or do I have to hunt for Domey ones?
And all teh Domey ones even though less speed are farther flying disc with glide, So i would gladly sacrfice the speed for distance...in other words I only want Domey destroyers. The flat top or more overstable but not as long.

well and also show me the "many players" who like the flat top design and they are throwing destroyers as a fast firebird type shot, not a all out distance shot.

Any one who throws Destroyers Star or Champion:
Do you prefer Domey or Flat Top Destroyers???

i like a compromise: slight dome. not huge like the pros, but not flat.

I like Echo Star Destroyers that have really big domes on them

I like a flatter disc in every mold I throw. Just my preference. got hook on the flats when CE came out. The 1St run Champ Destroyers the Bar Stamp,football and big star stamp ones are my Favs. There where also some that where CFR for the gentlemens club tourney that were $$$ any one have any? they where from 08

I totally understand your CE love, but old CE flat top had the glide of New CFR DOmey stuff and even better, thats one of the magical things of old CE. It was flat but had glide....just magical and why everbody craves it so.
But new Stuff to get same glide it takes the Dome..

I love teh CFR Domey Destroyers and any Star Domey Destroyers, I can throw them farther with less effort than flat ones. And New they still fly into wind very well.

hey dave how are you doing?
i have a star disc with the twisted tour stamp of twisted flyer.
thebottom is marked with "SGM" at170.
when i place this disc next to my champion panthers i can't detect a difference.
yet when i look online i cant find star panthers or star gremlins.
might you have any insight?
thanks for all you put into this sport and all your responses here.

Star Gremlins are CFR's and only available at this time as fundraisers - that's why you don't see them for sale.

Discmania currently has a disc that's the same as the Gremlin mold.

Taboo Question and Topic!
If I could get you (Innova) a batch of old CE plastic (the same chemical structure compound) so that you could produce Disc in "CE" plastic....would you?
Since you own the patent for the plastic, you are the only one that can produce it.

I like Echo Star Destroyers that have really big domes on them

The recent echo destroyers are the best destroyers to date, imo. Great glide very fast big dome.

Dave,

Is the 2 color foil hotstamps only available through Innova West? So far I have only seen this type of foil stamp on Japan Open and a wintertime tournament stamp out of Pasadena. I'd love to get a batch of my Lexington Open 12 discs stamped this way if possible.

Drew

I totally understand your CE love, but old CE flat top had the glide of New CFR DOmey stuff and even better, thats one of the magical things of old CE. It was flat but had glide....just magical and why everbody craves it so.
But new Stuff to get same glide it takes the Dome..

Having too much of a dome just feels funny in my hand. I don't get a clean release with it. It makes sense that having the dome gets more glide. A slight dome is okay but like the differnece between 11X Eagle and the 12X Eagle is very dramtic. The Star has less of a dome than the 12X Eagle and feels better in the hand but still dosen't even come close to feel of my CE ones. People look at me funny when they see my summer bag its got probally 7-8 CE discs

hey dave how are you doing?
i have a star disc with the twisted tour stamp of twisted flyer.
thebottom is marked with "SGM" at170.
when i place this disc next to my champion panthers i can't detect a difference.
yet when i look online i cant find star panthers or star gremlins.
might you have any insight?
thanks for all you put into this sport and all your responses here.

The Gremlin has become a Discmania midrange. However, at this point the labeling could either mean: Star-Gremlin (Innova) or S-Greater Midrange (Discmania). All future runs will be Discmania.

Taboo Question and Topic!
If I could get you (Innova) a batch of old CE plastic (the same chemical structure compound) so that you could produce Disc in "CE" plastic....would you?
Since you own the patent for the plastic, you are the only one that can produce it.

We certainly would like to get hold of the same plastic, but we don't own any patents to produce it.

Dave,

Is the 2 color foil hotstamps only available through Innova West? So far I have only seen this type of foil stamp on Japan Open and a wintertime tournament stamp out of Pasadena. I'd love to get a batch of my Lexington Open 12 discs stamped this way if possible.

Drew

Either coast can do two-color hot stamps. The East Coast can do INNColor too.

hey dave how are you doing?
i have a star disc with the twisted tour stamp of twisted flyer.
thebottom is marked with "SGM" at170.
when i place this disc next to my champion panthers i can't detect a difference.
yet when i look online i cant find star panthers or star gremlins.
might you have any insight?
thanks for all you put into this sport and all your responses here.

CFR STAR Gremlins are beadless & will be hard to differentiate by sight from Panthers. DX, ProLine, & CFR Champion Gremlins (as well as DiscMania GMs, I believe) are beaded.

I love teh CFR Domey Destroyers and any Star Domey Destroyers, I can throw them farther with less effort than flat ones. And New they still fly into wind very well.



So are you trying to say you really like domey destroyers? :)

How do the beadless star gremlins fly compared to the beaded ones? I really like the gremlin as a midrange because to me it feels more like a driver, and I can give it a nice solid rip and know what it's going to do. Are they a lot more undertable? Something with a late anhyzer turn would be awesome.

CFR STAR Gremlins are beadless & will be hard to differentiate by sight from Panthers. DX, ProLine, & CFR Champion Gremlins (as well as DiscMania GMs, I believe) are beaded.

Dave,

I was comparing a first run Goblin the other day with an R-Pro Dart and they looked very similar, if not the same. Are the Goblin and Dart the same mold? Thanks.

Dave,

I was comparing a first run Goblin the other day with an R-Pro Dart and they looked very similar, if not the same. Are the Goblin and Dart the same mold? Thanks.

The Goblin was retooled into the Dart and resubmitted to PDGA. The core is different. The PDGA measurements should be too.

How do the beadless star gremlins fly compared to the beaded ones? I really like the gremlin as a midrange because to me it feels more like a driver, and I can give it a nice solid rip and know what it's going to do. Are they a lot more undertable? Something with a late anhyzer turn would be awesome.

I have found the beadless Gremlin to start off mad overstable (like an old ProLine), but beat into a laser-straight flyer. The STAR one in my bag has kept that laser-straight flight for a few years now. It is less overstable than a brand-new beaded DX Gremlin, but a bit less understable than a properly seasoned beaded DX Gremlin. If you're looking for late flippiness, a beat DX is the way to go. Even better, there are a few beadless DX out there (mine have a So Cal Championships 2006 stamp on them).

BTW - I have a ton of beadless STAR Gremlins & a few beadless DX Gremlins I could part with. PM if interested.

So are you trying to say you really like domey destroyers? :)

Uh Yeh...Yes I really enjoy the Domey Destroyers and I agree the Echo Star are great, but i also love the CFR domey ones. I can get max distance and still have accuracy which is amazing to me. The Boss's are Crazy fast but not as consistant, not near as controled and skip hard left at the end which sometimes is a bad thing depending on basket placement.
So my looong D driver with good control is domey Destroyer

and CE boy, I understand. the feeling of a disc in the hand is a big deal. even if you sacrifice disc flight the feel of hand is confidence to brain and can equal better shot for certain players.....
but watch out, If I ever see you with your CE bag, Ill proll'y Jack U,
Your bag of disc is prob worth /.... what about$1000

and CE boy, I understand. the feeling of a disc in the hand is a big deal. even if you sacrifice disc flight the feel of hand is confidence to brain and can equal better shot for certain players.....
but watch out, If I ever see you with your CE bag, Ill proll'y Jack U,
Your bag of disc is prob worth /.... what about$1000

Gee thanks thats real reassuring that a fellow DGer would post this. that you may jack me WTF and No the discs in my bag probally wouldn't get but maybe $20 each casue they are used for so long. Don't worry about it I never leave my bag just sitting around and if you think your gonna get it from me good luck. The reason I still throw CE is the fact that I bought them when they where $16 and got used to using them so they remain in the bag.

I like these Cool TeeBirds.

https://www.discgolfvalues.com/home.htm

Gee thanks thats real reassuring that a fellow DGer would post this. that you may jack me WTF and No the discs in my bag probally wouldn't get but maybe $20 each casue they are used for so long. Don't worry about it I never leave my bag just sitting around and if you think your gonna get it from me good luck. The reason I still throw CE is the fact that I bought them when they where $16 and got used to using them so they remain in the bag.

C'mon he was joking even though I have seen it happen.........Keith was just giving you a hard time for your CE.

Hey Dave - Have I thanked you yet for the Mako? For me, it flies so remarkably straight, with a very straight finish, which I love. Will they ever come in non-DX plastic in weights lower than 167?

Hey Dave - Have I thanked you yet for the Mako? For me, it flies so remarkably straight, with a very straight finish, which I love. Will they ever come in non-DX plastic in weights lower than 167?

We are running the Star Mako right now and hope to get it down to low 60s. I don't know if DX is feasible because of the rim structure. It would wear very quickly and become very flippy.

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We are running the Star Mako right now and hope to get it down to low 60s. I don't know if DX is feasible because of the rim structure. It would wear very quickly and become very flippy.

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Yeah, I'm not interested in DX, for the reason you stated. Low 160's would be schweet.

Gee thanks thats real reassuring that a fellow DGer would post this. that you may jack me WTF and No the discs in my bag probally wouldn't get but maybe $20 each casue they are used for so long. Don't worry about it I never leave my bag just sitting around and if you think your gonna get it from me good luck. The reason I still throw CE is the fact that I bought them when they where $16 and got used to using them so they remain in the bag.

WOW, slow your roll Dog, i was kidding. I think its cool you throw CE, I have a few boys that are giddy over CE, I just dont like throwing it becuase i get to worried about losing it.
Seriously, I was just kiddin....

im very interested to try the Makko. Living up at 6000ft i need more un-stable things, or atleast stable. I think I now have use for a makko.
What types of shots is the makko taking over for people? Up shots? Long KC Roc shots?
Longer putter drives? Stable hyzer shots? Just strait up the middle shots?

im very interested to try the Makko. Living up at 6000ft i need more un-stable things, or atleast stable. I think I now have use for a makko.
What types of shots is the makko taking over for people? Up shots? Long KC Roc shots?
Longer putter drives? Stable hyzer shots? Just strait up the middle shots?

you name it, it does it. a bit longer than a roc due to the added glide but a very true flight. keep it high enough and it will bomb hyzers, goes straight when thrown slight hyzer to flat release, and has a nice slow turn if released slightly anny or overpowered with a flat release. its a good consistant flier for sure.

Hey Dave - Have I thanked you yet for the Mako? For me, it flies so remarkably straight, with a very straight finish, which I love. Will they ever come in non-DX plastic in weights lower than 167?


I just tested the Mako in Echo Star and got it down to 165gm. That usually means that regular Star can go a little lower.

Dave,
On behalf of the entire DGR website, THANKS FOR RUNNING THE CHAMPION PDS! I'm not sure if you ever lurk over there, but the PD has a strong following there. I think we've bought close to 60 of those champs this week, and that's just the people that posted how many they bought.

Anyway, have you thrown the Champ PD? If so, how does it compare to the first run S-PDs?
Thanks.

Dave,
On behalf of the entire DGR website, THANKS FOR RUNNING THE CHAMPION PDS! I'm not sure if you ever lurk over there, but the PD has a strong following there. I think we've bought close to 60 of those champs this week, and that's just the people that posted how many they bought.

Anyway, have you thrown the Champ PD? If so, how does it compare to the first run S-PDs?
Thanks.

Sorry, I have only thrown the S-PDs and the P-PDs. I haven't had a chance to try the C-PD yet to compare.

Any plans on running a champ or glow champ Mako? It is an awesome disc and I'd love one with a little more stability. Thanks!

I just tested the Mako in Echo Star and got it down to 165gm. That usually means that regular Star can go a little lower.

Schweeeeet!!!! Love to have some white ones for the Grand Opening of the Cal State San Marcos DGC.

Any plans on running a champ or glow champ Mako? It is an awesome disc and I'd love one with a little more stability. Thanks!

We were planning on running some Champion Makos. Not sure about Glow Champion. You might try a Champion Coyote for a disc with a little more stability.

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so is a coyote a mako with a bead...type disc???

so is a coyote a mako with a bead...type disc???


A Coyote is a slightly more stable Rancho Cucamonga mold. The Mako is made with a San Marino mold.
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Will the Champ Makos be available by March? At least for CFR?

Will the Champ Makos be available by March? At least for CFR?

Possibly by the end of March, but not sooner.
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wow 1st full day of Huk'ng the Makko. I am very interested. I threw the Makko, Z Buzz and my 2 KC rocs for all shots on course. It was windy and the Makko did not fly into wind (obviously) But I was very amazed at the nice anny glide and flight. I did not dump on anny lines like a Buzz SS that I thought it would be like. It flew anny lines gorgeous like a well beat KC ROC but...but..it went fruther with less Height..Air. So I dont need the same high ceiling as a Roc but I can still get more dsitance of an anny. Very Interesting and good shot to have. It was not stable like the Buzz. If I powered the Makko strait like the Buzz or new KC roc...the mako will flip...consistanly but it does flip. SO I will not use it for Hyzers or stable shots. I will throw Buzz or KC ROC, but The Makko seems like it would love to replace the Anny Ontario Roc and seems like it might perform better with less effort. I am very impressed with the glide, distance and anny angles. I will keep rocs and buzz for strait to hyzers and E Warrior for windy hyzers, but the Makko will possibly be a great anny disc.

Im interested to see a few in Champion....wondereing what it will do to flight, mold....If more stable I would like to see...

So the Makko is a san marion beadless coyote and a coyote is a beaded disc from Rancho???Im confused. Or there is a base mold that your working from?

so is there a racnho stable Makko??? will there be???I would love this thing with a bead or over stability added, it would take the place of 3 mids..

Sounds like the Ranch-stable Mako is called the Coyote?

Maybe it is a "Wiley Coyote"?

So the Makko is a san marion beadless coyote and a coyote is a beaded disc from Rancho???Im confused. Or there is a base mold that your working from?

Coyote has no bead. As I understand the only difference between the Mako and Coyote is that the Coyote has a Rancho Roc top and the Mako has a San Marino Roc top.

Sounds like the Ranch-stable Mako is called the Coyote?

Yes. The only part that the two share, is the lower outer bevel. Neither has a bead. The Coyote has been slightly retooled from the original and is slightly more stable than the original. The original flight numbers on the Coyote were 4,5,-1,1. The new numbers are 4,5,0,1. The flight numbers on the Mako are 4,5,0,0. These could also have been 4,5,-1/2,0, but it is pretty straight unless you hit it pretty hard or are throwing into a wind.

Hey Dave,

Do you know if this page http://www.innovadiscs.com/discs/index.html will be updated with all the new discs?

Thanks

Dave, is there a release date for the r pro rhyno? thanks

Hey Dave,

Do you know if this page http://www.innovadiscs.com/discs/index.html will be updated with all the new discs?

Thanks

The web site is currently being revamped so that new updates will be easier to apply. The page will be revised when the site is updated. I don't know when it is scheduled to go live, but they have been working on it for a long time and seem to be close.

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wow, Im loving this Star Makko. It is crazy...crazy long annys. Its going farther on anny than just about anything I have even soem drivers. wow iM amazed. it can and will hold a hyzer, im scared to trust it for hyzer so i dont, but i have thrown it on hyzer and was amazed....but wow so far im loving it. and I have had great success putting when the wind was kickn to much for my putter. over all im very intrigued with this thing.

Hey Dave,

Do you know if this page http://www.innovadiscs.com/discs/index.html will be updated with all the new discs?

Thanks

Page has been updated.

is the mako really more stable than the coyote?
is the kite more stable than the panther?

i thought the opposite was true of these 2 comparisons...

The web site is currently being revamped so that new updates will be easier to apply. The page will be revised when the site is updated. I don't know when it is scheduled to go live, but they have been working on it for a long time and seem to be close.

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Sounds good, thanks Dave. It would be cool to also see links to previous discs, but im sure that would be a huge task

What's model is a disc marked SN on the bottom. Thanks in advance Dave.

if the coyote is more stable, i will have to throw with makko and see how they work together.

Dave,
I have a wooden mold of the Brand X 44X fastback. I got this from Victor years ago. Was this a common practice when designing a mold back then?

if the coyote is more over stable than the Makko, then why is the makko positioned on the left (hyzer) side of the coyote, making the makko look more over stable than the coyote on your web chart....

if the coyote is more over stable than the Makko, then why is the makko positioned on the left (hyzer) side of the coyote, making the makko look more over stable than the coyote on your web chart....

Page has been updated.

I know it was just update and the makko is listed as more over stable than coyote, but I thought Dave just said Makko is understable comapred to Coyote??
And a buddy who is throwing both says that he believes the coyote to be more understable? Im wondering cause if coyote is more overstable than I will give try, but if more under than Makko, I have no need.

To recap for those of you just tuning in, of for those TL;DR (http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/tl-dr) people out there:

Coyote: Rancho Roc Top Mako: San Marino Roc Top

Coyote Specs: 4, 5, 0, 1 Mako Specs: 4, 5, 0, 0

Stability: Coyote > Mako

Understabilty: Mako > Coyote

What's model is a disc marked SN on the bottom. Thanks in advance Dave.

I believe it was the code for Sniper. The Sniper became the Gremlin and is now a Discmania disc.
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Dave,
I have a wooden mold of the Brand X 44X fastback. I got this from Victor years ago. Was this a common practice when designing a mold back then?

I doubt it, but I don't know if Brand X did. We never made models this way. They break too easily.

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I know it was just update and the makko is listed as more over stable than coyote, but I thought Dave just said Makko is understable comapred to Coyote??
And a buddy who is throwing both says that he believes the coyote to be more understable? Im wondering cause if coyote is more overstable than I will give try, but if more under than Makko, I have no need.

Your buddy might be right if he is throwing an old Coyote. The new Champion Coyotes are definitely more stable than the Mako.

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