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hankdabank
Aug 19 2009, 02:43 PM
Or a Skeeter.

Shags17
Aug 19 2009, 03:20 PM
Beat DX Ontario Roc sounds like it would fill that spot nicely

ChrisEads
Aug 19 2009, 03:43 PM
My problem is I dont want to have to beat a disc in to make it fly like I want it too. I want to be able to buy it off the shelf and it fly like it should. Now maybe innova can take half of thier rocs and beat them in for us prior to shipping them but until that I will continue to buy a disc that I can replace immediately and still have that consistent flight with out having to beat in.

discette
Aug 19 2009, 04:12 PM
You could take the advice of others and

A - throw a Panther,
B - throw a Kite
C - throw a Skeeter


You could also throw a Cobra or a Stingray.

With all the above discs, no beating necessary. Good turnovers right off the shelf.

mitchjustice
Aug 19 2009, 08:23 PM
I have a "Happy Halloweenova 05" disc

What type of Aviar is this???

gippy
Aug 19 2009, 09:15 PM
I have a "Happy Halloweenova 05" disc

What type of Aviar is this???

DX im pretty Sure DX small bead or No bead "micro" as some call it

AviarX
Aug 19 2009, 10:30 PM
I agree that there is really truely nothing out there like the meteor. I have never been able to consistently throw a hyzer midrange that pops up and flies dead straight or I can even make it turn over with a very long anny. I also request innova to make something similar to this disc.

Millenium Aurora MS -- been around for many years: one of Innova's best kept secrets

mitchjustice
Aug 19 2009, 10:38 PM
wrong and no

mitchjustice
Aug 19 2009, 10:41 PM
wrong and no

Try a Q-sentinel

20460chase
Aug 20 2009, 12:24 PM
wrong and no

Wrong what? Actually, with a little abuse that would be dead on.

20460chase
Aug 20 2009, 12:26 PM
Try a Q-sentinel


Did they remold this or something? This is where wrong and no would fit.

mitchjustice
Aug 20 2009, 12:43 PM
The new mold is less stable than the original....even more so in the "S" plastic....so yes it was remolded


Any other guesses on the "Halloweeeeenie disc"...it has a San Marino molding on the back...

hankdabank
Aug 20 2009, 02:28 PM
DX Aviar for sure.

pdorries
Aug 20 2009, 04:28 PM
My problem is I dont want to have to beat a disc in to make it fly like I want it too.

totally agree, and none of their suggestions glide like a meteor does, i think they haven't thrown one or they wouldnt be suggesting discs that fly nothing like it. a Kite? cobra? skeeter? you guys haven't thrown a meteor have you...

ChrisEads
Aug 20 2009, 04:43 PM
There is no possible way that any of these compare to a meteor. They all turn like they should but have no where near the glide of a meteor. Try one out and I promise you wont want to ever throw a skeeter,kite or cobra.

joegraham
Aug 20 2009, 05:59 PM
A lighter ROC would do the trick.

discndat
Aug 20 2009, 06:06 PM
Sounds like you just need to throw your Meteor and the Innova throwers throw the ones they feel are doing that for them. There's lots of people out there throwing Innova that don't seem to need the Meteor like you do. Just throw it and they'll throw their Rocs, Skeeters, Stingrays, etc. Unless you're sponsored, what's the deal?

tokyo
Aug 20 2009, 07:20 PM
totally agree, and none of their suggestions glide like a meteor does, i think they haven't thrown one or they wouldnt be suggesting discs that fly nothing like it. a Kite? cobra? skeeter? you guys haven't thrown a meteor have you...

Panther!

pdorries
Aug 20 2009, 08:07 PM
Sounds like you just need to throw your Meteor and the Innova throwers throw the ones they feel are doing that for them. There's lots of people out there throwing Innova that don't seem to need the Meteor like you do. Just throw it and they'll throw their Rocs, Skeeters, Stingrays, etc. Unless you're sponsored, what's the deal?

That's fine. I simply posted to follow up on a previous inquiry.

A few months ago I asked on this same thread about what midrange would fly like that. I tried many of the suggestions of other people but didn't have any success finding the flight pattern I was looking for. So after trying a lot of Innova stuff (because I personally love their drivers and the kc aviar) I broke down and got a meteor.

I made the post about the meteor to: 1. Maybe convince other people who were on the fence about throwing discraft midranges to try em out. 2. Ask Dave if he would consider making a midrange that flew like that to expand the innova line

gokayaksteven
Aug 20 2009, 09:14 PM
where is Dave?

holed up running champ gators?

20460chase
Aug 20 2009, 11:13 PM
That's fine. I simply posted to follow up on a previous inquiry.

A few months ago I asked on this same thread about what midrange would fly like that. I tried many of the suggestions of other people but didn't have any success finding the flight pattern I was looking for. So after trying a lot of Innova stuff (because I personally love their drivers and the kc aviar) I broke down and got a meteor.

I made the post about the meteor to: 1. Maybe convince other people who were on the fence about throwing discraft midranges to try em out. 2. Ask Dave if he would consider making a midrange that flew like that to expand the innova line


Werent you also saying there can only be one no. 1 and Innova was it? Amazing what happens when you stay open minded and try other things. Innova, like everyone, is always trying to put out the best products.

20460chase
Aug 20 2009, 11:14 PM
where is Dave?

holed up running champ gators?

My guess would be handling matters relating to Tim S. 's passing.

gokayaksteven
Aug 20 2009, 11:53 PM
yea, I should have figured that.

RIP Tim

illyB
Aug 21 2009, 12:10 AM
Hola Dave, I was curious if you knew anything about the "no time" kc rocs. Basically where the 11/ 12 time usually is, it isn't there. Just the two lines continuing. These are both 175 grams. It seems they are taking way longer to brake in than my 12 time which is becoming a "flip machine" rather quickly. Any insight would be appreciated. Different plastic blend? Also, are kc rocs ever producing in any color other than white?

veganray
Aug 21 2009, 12:22 AM
Also, are kc rocs ever producing in any color other than white?

http://www.tripledisc.com/preview/msdgc/10rocs.JPG

illyB
Aug 21 2009, 12:37 AM
http://www.tripledisc.com/preview/msdgc/10rocs.JPG

wow, learn something new everyday. I notice none of those have a "time" on them either. Are they not produced with a "time" anymore?

dgdave
Aug 21 2009, 08:11 AM
The no time rocs were stamped between 11x and 12x rocs. nothin special. There atre lots of colors out there for KC rocs now a days

illyB
Aug 21 2009, 10:19 AM
thanks

gippy
Aug 21 2009, 10:30 AM
The no time rocs were stamped between 11x and 12x rocs. nothin special. There atre lots of colors out there for KC rocs now a days

The 0Xs are like the 11Xs nice and stable and feel like the 11Xs and not like the slick 12Xs

MattyInRR
Aug 21 2009, 12:27 PM
Hey Dave! I wanted to thank you again and again for everything you guys do for disc golf. Any word when Pro Boss's will be in production and for sale? Thanks for your time.

junky
Aug 22 2009, 09:40 AM
I found an '06 World Dubs stamped disc yesterday, Innova mold but says S-OF on the bottom. What is it?

dgdave
Aug 22 2009, 10:40 AM
Its a sirus Orion LF. Millineum disc. Kinda like a faster Eagle.

junky
Aug 22 2009, 10:55 AM
it's in the lake @ Lions now.

two5twosix9
Aug 24 2009, 02:08 AM
I have a 5 year old that loves to golf with me. He has a 137 leopard, a 119 roc, and we have even found a 134 orc. He has a couple of magnets that are about 120. He is still too small to throw 150 class but he has quite a few 150 discs anyway. I am wondering if you plan to expand the ultralight line and also where can I find the discs that were made for EDGE? Thanks dave.

davei
Aug 24 2009, 08:22 AM
Hey Dave! I wanted to thank you again and again for everything you guys do for disc golf. Any word when Pro Boss's will be in production and for sale? Thanks for your time.

We will probably test it in driver Pro in a month or so. If we run it, they will be available later this year.

davei
Aug 24 2009, 08:31 AM
I have a 5 year old that loves to golf with me. He has a 137 leopard, a 119 roc, and we have even found a 134 orc. He has a couple of magnets that are about 120. He is still too small to throw 150 class but he has quite a few 150 discs anyway. I am wondering if you plan to expand the ultralight line and also where can I find the discs that were made for EDGE? Thanks dave.


The EDGE disc listing is out of date, but I don't know the correct one at present. Herodiscusa.com has sever discs that would be appropriate for a 5 yr old too. The light Sonic and Hero 235. We are planning on expanding the EDGE discs too. Both the Skeeter and Dart. I believe the Skeeter is replacing the Shark as an EDGE appropriate model.

LastBoyScout
Aug 24 2009, 12:20 PM
Dave,

I was talking with Solstice Disc Sports this weekend at a tournament and he mentioned that his Innova Rep claimed that with the popularity of the CFR Gator-X mold that the Champion version was going back to a production run. Tell me its true Dave! The Pig just isnt replacing this disc like I hoped it would.

Also, I want to know like PDorries posted several posts above, is there an Innova disc in the works that is similar/clone to a discraft meteor? Maybe some beadless rocs? I dunno if its just me but my first run coyote's(too stable), fly dye champ cobra's(too stable), and old DX panther's just dont fly the same.(its not an issue of power or flying a disc, i get my boss out to 500feet and my rocs out to 350feet)The skeeter just feels too weird and gets a little squirrelly at times. Im currently using a 150 class Champ Leopard but that thing is way to soft and flexible and I would prefer something heavier that doesnt need to be beaten and flys true out of the box.

I already had to buy some super puppies to avoid buying a discraft rattler, and I would rather not have any "discrap" in the bag if you know what i mean.

Thanks Dave.

20460chase
Aug 24 2009, 12:36 PM
I already had to buy some super puppies to avoid buying a discraft rattler, and I would rather not have any "discrap" in the bag if you know what i mean.

Thanks Dave.


I really hope you dont own the shop you plug in your signature.

unclemercy
Aug 24 2009, 12:37 PM
stratus equivilent as well please

LastBoyScout
Aug 24 2009, 12:41 PM
I dont....

Every discraft disc i have owned flew differently. same thing with the meteors my buddy has. he has 5 of them, same weight and color. 3 fly the same. 1 is overstable. 1 is super understable. all purchased at the same time from the Bowling Green Ams flymart.

Besides, the south is Innova Country. Discraft and Gateway players are a rarity.

Besides Chase, I know that with you owning a store you might not ever "talk down" a disc or brand, but im sure you would be quick to make an alternative selection to a customer if it was someone you knew.

I just have issues with Discraft as well as several other locals with inconsistancy issues that we have just not had with Innova.

mitchjustice
Aug 24 2009, 01:02 PM
I have a 5 year old that loves to golf with me. He has a 137 leopard, a 119 roc, and we have even found a 134 orc. He has a couple of magnets that are about 120. He is still too small to throw 150 class but he has quite a few 150 discs anyway. I am wondering if you plan to expand the ultralight line and also where can I find the discs that were made for EDGE? Thanks dave.


The Sketters we got for the Kyle summer camp this year came in 135-143 grams...they worked much better than the 150 gram sharks we had been using the last 4 years...we also found really light cobras, super softs, and rocs(several runs and as low as 110 grams)...I would highly recommend a light Sketter for learning good form

20460chase
Aug 24 2009, 01:11 PM
I dont....

Every discraft disc i have owned flew differently. same thing with the meteors my buddy has. he has 5 of them, same weight and color. 3 fly the same. 1 is overstable. 1 is super understable. all purchased at the same time from the Bowling Green Ams flymart.

Besides, the south is Innova Country. Discraft and Gateway players are a rarity.

Besides Chase, I know that with you owning a store you might not ever "talk down" a disc or brand, but im sure you would be quick to make an alternative selection to a customer if it was someone you knew.

I just have issues with Discraft as well as several other locals with inconsistancy issues that we have just not had with Innova.


Whatever. For everything you just said, I can say the exact same thing about Innova. The variants in thier plastic is what makes it worth money in the secondary market, same principal for Gateway. Why is there no secondary market for Discraft? Because of consistency. Am I saying Discraft is better? No, not at all, Im just trying to express that multiple companies offer great products.

Theres a huge difference between offering a different selection and blasting a company putting money in your ( or said shops ) pocket.

Its kind of pitiful that because Dave takes the time to get on here and answer questions people feel its the right venue to blast anything non-Innova and basically kiss ***. Im not trying to be a dick or anything, if it were your shop, youd understand how important it is to have multiple options and how one product ruling the world doesnt benefit disc golf.

LastBoyScout
Aug 24 2009, 01:46 PM
Thats understandable. I understand market diversity. Same thing with cars, I dont buy or support ford motors.

You just have to remember that opinions are like a$$h0le$. Everyone has one.

I prefer innova, i think its a superior product. no brown nosing going on here. if you dont agree with that, thats awesome. you have exercised a right that is not freely allowed all over the world. be glad you live in america and have the right to freely express that opinion. I know that I do everytime i think about high school friends who have died in the military protecting our freedoms.

davei
Aug 24 2009, 03:32 PM
Dave,

I was talking with Solstice Disc Sports this weekend at a tournament and he mentioned that his Innova Rep claimed that with the popularity of the CFR Gator-X mold that the Champion version was going back to a production run. Tell me its true Dave! The Pig just isnt replacing this disc like I hoped it would.

Also, I want to know like PDorries posted several posts above, is there an Innova disc in the works that is similar/clone to a discraft meteor? Maybe some beadless rocs? I dunno if its just me but my first run coyote's(too stable), fly dye champ cobra's(too stable), and old DX panther's just dont fly the same.(its not an issue of power or flying a disc, i get my boss out to 500feet and my rocs out to 350feet)The skeeter just feels too weird and gets a little squirrelly at times. Im currently using a 150 class Champ Leopard but that thing is way to soft and flexible and I would prefer something heavier that doesnt need to be beaten and flys true out of the box.

I already had to buy some super puppies to avoid buying a discraft rattler, and I would rather not have any "discrap" in the bag if you know what i mean.

Thanks Dave.

The more stable Gator mold will be run next time. The Gator is two levels faster than the Pig.

As for the Super Puppy, we do have the DX Polecat and will have an R-Pro version fairly soon. It is the closest we have to the Super Puppy.

I don't know what a Meteor flies like so I can't tell you what we have that might be like it. Sorry.

johnbiscoe
Aug 24 2009, 03:41 PM
stratus equivilent as well please

stratus=cobra

gippy
Aug 24 2009, 05:48 PM
The more stable Gator mold will be run next time. The Gator is two levels faster than the Pig.

As for the Super Puppy, we do have the DX Polecat and will have an R-Pro version fairly soon. It is the closest we have to the Super Puppy.

I don't know what a Meteor flies like so I can't tell you what we have that might be like it. Sorry.

I tried to find charts for the meteor and discraft dosne't rate their discs like innova but from what I cam up with the Stingray would be the cloest thing to it. I would say the DX ones as I have heard through friends that the Star Stingrays are more stable than the DX and don't turn like they expected. Meteor rated at a -.5 the Stingray is 4,5,-3,1. This just my observation. If you like the Meteor and can't find anything that flies like it throw the meteor. It's that simple why change what works

gokayaksteven
Aug 24 2009, 06:11 PM
Dave-
will the gator return to the regular line-up in champion plastic? when do you expect to do the next run?
thanks again

pdorries
Aug 24 2009, 06:22 PM
I would rather not have any "discrap" in the bag if you know what i mean.

i used to think the exact same thoughts, until i bagged the meteor. innova drivers still reign supreme and the kc aviar is golden... rocs... fly like rocs... which fly beautifully... BUT there isn't an innova disc that flies like the meteor... so you should get one man, fo sho

20460chase
Aug 24 2009, 09:04 PM
I tried to find charts for the meteor and discraft dosne't rate their discs like innova but from what I cam up with the Stingray would be the cloest thing to it. I would say the DX ones as I have heard through friends that the Star Stingrays are more stable than the DX and don't turn like they expected. Meteor rated at a -.5 the Stingray is 4,5,-3,1. This just my observation. If you like the Meteor and can't find anything that flies like it throw the meteor. It's that simple why change what works


It would be close in the small mold. There are 2 in Star plastic. The firsts were the small diameter. IMO, a way better choice than Kite or Skeeter and probably the best of all the choices brought up so far.

davei
Aug 24 2009, 09:18 PM
Dave-
will the gator return to the regular line-up in champion plastic? when do you expect to do the next run?
thanks again

Yes, I expect the Gator to be run in Champion, but I am not sure what line up it will be in. I believe the regular line up. I am not sure when right now. Not soon.

gokayaksteven
Aug 25 2009, 12:19 AM
thanks Dave- I will get a couple more stars to hold me over until then

two5twosix9
Aug 25 2009, 01:02 AM
The Sketters we got for the Kyle summer camp this year came in 135-143 grams...they worked much better than the 150 gram sharks we had been using the last 4 years...we also found really light cobras, super softs, and rocs(several runs and as low as 110 grams)...I would highly recommend a light Sketter for learning good form

As silly as it sounds I don't think that a skeeter is going to be enough disc for him. The first thing he held in his hand was a mini and he has been throwing since he could walk. He throws his backhand about 80-90, his sidearm 100-120, and sidearm rolls 120+ consistantly. He has decent angle control so I would like to get him a teebird or a wraith. I saw there are crazy light boss' at hero that I will be purchasing so we will see how long the r-pro lasts. He also has a roc that he rips so i don't know that a skeeter would fit into the arsonal but I will get one anyway because it is available. Are there any aviars that are superlight anywhere? Marshalstreet has a good lightweight selection but I haven't been able to find any other place that has as good a selection. I am just looking for more resources. Thanks.

keithjohnson
Aug 25 2009, 10:02 AM
Dave,

Welcome back to the board - Lorelei, Dawn, and I give you and the ENTIRE Innnova family our condolances on the loss of Tim.

I am so glad we all got to see him and spend some time with him at Worlds, and I'll have a special moment for him at my next Event on September 12th.

Thanks for all of your help to all the disc golfers out there in person as well as on the board.

Keith

mitchjustice
Aug 25 2009, 11:23 AM
As silly as it sounds I don't think that a skeeter is going to be enough disc for him. The first thing he held in his hand was a mini and he has been throwing since he could walk. He throws his backhand about 80-90, his sidearm 100-120, and sidearm rolls 120+ consistantly. He has decent angle control so I would like to get him a teebird or a wraith. I saw there are crazy light boss' at hero that I will be purchasing so we will see how long the r-pro lasts. He also has a roc that he rips so i don't know that a skeeter would fit into the arsonal but I will get one anyway because it is available. Are there any aviars that are superlight anywhere? Marshalstreet has a good lightweight selection but I haven't been able to find any other place that has as good a selection. I am just looking for more resources. Thanks.

I gave my 9 year old little girl ( who is little for her age ) a 143 gram R-pro Boss and instantly she was throwing farther...get 2 or 3, they are fragile....Discnation.com has some really light DX Eagles and a few others...most of the cool ones I have found have been used older runs

davei
Aug 25 2009, 03:42 PM
As silly as it sounds I don't think that a skeeter is going to be enough disc for him. The first thing he held in his hand was a mini and he has been throwing since he could walk. He throws his backhand about 80-90, his sidearm 100-120, and sidearm rolls 120+ consistantly. He has decent angle control so I would like to get him a teebird or a wraith. I saw there are crazy light boss' at hero that I will be purchasing so we will see how long the r-pro lasts. He also has a roc that he rips so i don't know that a skeeter would fit into the arsonal but I will get one anyway because it is available. Are there any aviars that are superlight anywhere? Marshalstreet has a good lightweight selection but I haven't been able to find any other place that has as good a selection. I am just looking for more resources. Thanks.

I know we have made superlight Aviars, but I don't know of a resource right now. Sorry. Aviars have been made down to 105gm Mirage model.

two5twosix9
Aug 25 2009, 05:02 PM
I know we have made superlight Aviars, but I don't know of a resource right now. Sorry. Aviars have been made down to 105gm Mirage model.

I am not a vendor but is there any way I could get in touch with someone at the warehouse to request any lighter discs that may be available? I can get in touch of a few people from my area that are on the team and might see what they can do but I would like to skip the middle man if possible.

hankdabank
Aug 26 2009, 02:31 PM
http://www.discgolfunited.com/Store/product.cfm?prod_id=42

Click the weight drop-down and it goes all the way to 130's.

two5twosix9
Aug 26 2009, 09:50 PM
http://www.discgolfunited.com/Store/product.cfm?prod_id=42

Click the weight drop-down and it goes all the way to 130's.

Thank you.

pdiddy71
Aug 26 2009, 10:31 PM
i found some 140 class champion eagle x-outs at my local store, i don't know if that is something you could get from the warehouse.

Breeze
Aug 26 2009, 10:40 PM
Yes, I expect the Gator to be run in Champion, but I am not sure what line up it will be in. I believe the regular line up. I am not sure when right now. Not soon.

http://www.opus-photography.net/smilies/Colbertclapdance.gif
woohoo!

-Chris A

Trey133
Aug 27 2009, 01:42 PM
Marshall Street has an aviar at 105 grams right now. I know its not eliminating the middle man, but there is one to be had right now.

two5twosix9
Aug 27 2009, 08:36 PM
Marshall Street has an aviar at 105 grams right now. I know its not eliminating the middle man, but there is one to be had right now.

Thank you.I didn't mean cut out the vendor middle man, if there are any other vendors that have these lightweight discs please letme know. Thanks

OSUNURSE
Aug 28 2009, 02:59 AM
i used to think the exact same thoughts, until i bagged the meteor. innova drivers still reign supreme and the kc aviar is golden... rocs... fly like rocs... which fly beautifully... BUT there isn't an innova disc that flies like the meteor... so you should get one man, fo sho

Oh man you said it. Wish I would have saw this conversation earlier. I have been a huge Innova snob for years and tried a meteor 6 months ago, and I fully agree. There is absolutley nothing Innova makes that does that. Dave, please throw one soon, my friend. It is sweet. I'm still almost all Innova, but that Meteor (and Buzzz) just have no equal. Wow they glide. (please tell me someone didn't try to compare the kite?!?) I gave that spaceship a serious college try for months.....

Having said that, Discraft has nothing that does what an Innova champ Viper or DX bulldog does, start makin 'em again Dave! (I know I know, the bulldod is now the Hydra, it just isn't as "cool.")

pterodactyl
Aug 28 2009, 01:52 PM
Wow! This thing goes really far for me.

I couldn't believe the D that I put on this disc. Now, as long as I don't hit anything with it.
I've seen the damage to some when they hit trees and it aint pretty.

kwibby1
Aug 30 2009, 11:09 PM
Hmmm i must try one

kwibby1
Aug 30 2009, 11:54 PM
Hi Dave i got this from a friend explaining the 11x kc roc as opposed to the so-called 11x 8x roc (19X).... this is the same thing that happened with the 10x (18X) time rocs where the seam is in different spots as the diagram shows. i have a bunch of the 19x configuration and they all have the quarter sized dimple top just like the original 8x rocs have...just wanted your thoughts on the different molds within the run as far as the location of the seam...close to .100 difference in them.. and the dimple and is that truly a 8x top? Thanks

davei
Aug 31 2009, 12:25 PM
Hi Dave i got this from a friend explaining the 11x kc roc as opposed to the so-called 11x 8x roc (19X).... this is the same thing that happened with the 10x (18X) time rocs where the seam is in different spots as the diagram shows. i have a bunch of the 19x configuration and they all have the quarter sized dimple top just like the original 8x rocs have...just wanted your thoughts on the different molds within the run as far as the location of the seam...close to .100 difference in them.. and the dimple and is that truly a 8x top? Thanks

The true Rancho has the seam lower. Ontarios and San Marinos have the seam higher. An 11X won't automatically have the higher seam, it would only have been done for one or two runs. I remember having experimented with a run, but I thought it was the 10X. Regardless, a Rancho with the higher seam is a hybrid Rancho, which is a mix between a Rancho and a San Marino. We haven't run a hybrid, (intentionally), for several years.

kwibby1
Sep 02 2009, 02:46 AM
The true Rancho has the seam lower. Ontarios and San Marinos have the seam higher. An 11X won't automatically have the higher seam, it would only have been done for one or two runs. I remember having experimented with a run, but I thought it was the 10X. Regardless, a Rancho with the higher seam is a hybrid Rancho, which is a mix between a Rancho and a San Marino. We haven't run a hybrid, (intentionally), for several years.

Thanks Dave, so the 10x time 18x time rocs that have been sold on ebay are just regular rancho's right? seems to me the hybrids with the seam up higher would be the rarer disc..just never potrayed that way as the so called 18x get more loot....Good to know :)

rickb
Sep 03 2009, 11:01 AM
Dave I'm not sure if you have covered this or not. Are there any plans to make the soft, gummy JK Aviar-X's again? I've tried the r-pro dart and r-pro avair along with the rw-avair and they're just not the same. Or is there anything else that Innova makes either for yourselves or another company that comes close?

As always thanks for taking the time to answer all of our questions.

davei
Sep 03 2009, 03:31 PM
Dave I'm not sure if you have covered this or not. Are there any plans to make the soft, gummy JK Aviar-X's again? I've tried the r-pro dart and r-pro avair along with the rw-avair and they're just not the same. Or is there anything else that Innova makes either for yourselves or another company that comes close?

As always thanks for taking the time to answer all of our questions.


We recently ran JKs, but I am not sure whether they are soft enough for what you are asking. When we tried to make them softer, it didn't work. The closest other disc we make is the P2 for Discmania. Those are made with a similar material, but they are not as soft as the R-Pro Dart either. We will continue to try to run softer JKs and P2s when we get a chance.

rickb
Sep 03 2009, 03:54 PM
We recently ran JKs, but I am not sure whether they are soft enough for what you are asking. When we tried to make them softer, it didn't work. The closest other disc we make is the P2 for Discmania. Those are made with a similar material, but they are not as soft as the R-Pro Dart either. We will continue to try to run softer JKs and P2s when we get a chance.

My apologies, I should have been more specific. The discs I was inquiring about and wanting are close to the original 3X JK's and the early 4X JK's. These discs were both flexible and gummy. Great for wet weather, cold weather and even the middle of summer.

The latter 4X JK's and 5X JK's were a grippier plastic but were alot stiffer, not KC Aviar stiff but close. Even the newer JK's that are now being printed up with tournament stamps are the somewhat grippy but stiff plastic.

Thanks again.

33009
Sep 04 2009, 06:31 PM
Rick, he knows exactly what your talking about. He is the master of all discs new and old...

RhynoBoy
Sep 05 2009, 06:15 PM
We recently ran JKs, but I am not sure whether they are soft enough for what you are asking. When we tried to make them softer, it didn't work.

...

Dana
Sep 08 2009, 04:43 PM
Dave- Are TDs/Clubs able to make CFR/TFR orders of discs just in the Echo plastic?
Thanks!

davei
Sep 08 2009, 05:19 PM
Dave- Are TDs/Clubs able to make CFR/TFR orders of discs just in the Echo plastic?
Thanks!

Only if we have enough in the desired models. We are current improving our stock, but it is presently insufficient in many models. The TeeBird will be run in Echo Star next.

ChrisEads
Sep 08 2009, 05:50 PM
I am suggesting R-pro Beasts in light weights. Please Dave tell me if this has a chance.

Also when can we expect to see some more drivers in the R-pro plastic like leopards and teebirds as well as valks. Even destroyers would be cool.

davei
Sep 08 2009, 06:14 PM
I am suggesting R-pro Beasts in light weights. Please Dave tell me if this has a chance.

Also when can we expect to see some more drivers in the R-pro plastic like leopards and teebirds as well as valks. Even destroyers would be cool.

We have no plans to make the heavier weights in any R-Pro driver at this point. If we use it on any other driver, it will be for weights lighter than 164gms

rizbee
Sep 08 2009, 11:21 PM
The more stable Gator mold will be run next time. The Gator is two levels faster than the Pig.

As for the Super Puppy, we do have the DX Polecat and will have an R-Pro version fairly soon. It is the closest we have to the Super Puppy.

I don't know what a Meteor flies like so I can't tell you what we have that might be like it. Sorry.

R-Pro Polecat? Sounds interesting to all us Super Puppy/Kitty Hawk fans.

And thanks for working on creating lighter drivers using R-Pro. I'm a consistent 150-class thrower and I'd love to have 150g Beasts, Starfires, etc.

cgkdisc
Sep 08 2009, 11:49 PM
R-Pro Super Hero (although we need them at 180g).

davei
Sep 09 2009, 09:06 AM
R-Pro Polecat? Sounds interesting to all us Super Puppy/Kitty Hawk fans.

And thanks for working on creating lighter drivers using R-Pro. I'm a consistent 150-class thrower and I'd love to have 150g Beasts, Starfires, etc.

FYI. We are adding a slightly altered Pro 150 class in Japan next year. The Pro division will be able to use discs up to 159.4g. All other divisions and recreational play will remain the same.

What this means to you, potentially, is that more discs in the low 150s will be available.

rizbee
Sep 09 2009, 04:21 PM
FYI. We are adding a slightly altered Pro 150 class in Japan next year. The Pro division will be able to use discs up to 159.4g. All other divisions and recreational play will remain the same.

What this means to you, potentially, is that more discs in the low 150s will be available.

Loving it!! Thanks, Dave - you do listen to us out here!

Curious - what's the reasoning behind the altered Pro 150 class?

davei
Sep 09 2009, 09:23 PM
Loving it!! Thanks, Dave - you do listen to us out here!

Curious - what's the reasoning behind the altered Pro 150 class?

It makes the jump between classes easier for Americans going to the Japan Open, and for Professional Japanese players coming to the US.

It makes more models available in higher grades plastics for the Pros in Japan. Before the change, even Champion TeeBirds were difficult to make under 150g. With the change, Eagles, TeeBirds, Banshees, Firebirds, Valkyries, Vikings, Monarchs, and a few others will be easily available.

I also believe that more people will try drivers in the 150s as opposed to the 140s

It may be a combination of physiology, ballistics, and aerodynamics, but I get a big boost in performance going from 140s to 150s, that I don't get going up to 160s and certainly not 170s.

I carry 2 R-Pro Bosses in the high 150s and get my longest throws with them. I believe these are the biggest bang for the buck in distance driving ease and length.

rizbee
Sep 09 2009, 11:42 PM
It makes the jump between classes easier for Americans going to the Japan Open, and for Professional Japanese players coming to the US.

It makes more models available in higher grades plastics for the Pros in Japan. Before the change, even Champion TeeBirds were difficult to make under 150g. With the change, Eagles, TeeBirds, Banshees, Firebirds, Valkyries, Vikings, Monarchs, and a few others will be easily available.

I also believe that more people will try drivers in the 150s as opposed to the 140s

It may be a combination of physiology, ballistics, and aerodynamics, but I get a big boost in performance going from 140s to 150s, that I don't get going up to 160s and certainly not 170s.

I carry 2 R-Pro Bosses in the high 150s and get my longest throws with them. I believe these are the biggest bang for the buck in distance driving ease and length.

Interesting. I agree about the jump from weight level to weight level. Like I think I said before, I'd love to see some mid-to-high 150's Beasts, Starfires, Wraiths and TeeRexs.

Any chance of an R-Pro/Champion special blend in those weights? You could call it Star-lite.

davei
Sep 10 2009, 07:55 AM
Interesting. I agree about the jump from weight level to weight level. Like I think I said before, I'd love to see some mid-to-high 150's Beasts, Starfires, Wraiths and TeeRexs.

Any chance of an R-Pro/Champion special blend in those weights? You could call it Star-lite.

Not sure about the TeeRexes, but the other models have a good chance of being made in Starlite. We alreadly make Starlite in Bosses, but they only go down to 165 or 166gms.

We can make all the models light in R-Pro. We will make whatever model Japan wants. Those would be available in the U.S. too.

two5twosix9
Sep 13 2009, 12:55 PM
Anything ground breaking in the works?

davei
Sep 13 2009, 06:57 PM
Anything ground breaking in the works?

Maybe. New Star formula that has a much better grip. New long range driver. The plastic is ready now and has already been run for the Star Dart. The long range driver won't be ready for a couple of months.

two5twosix9
Sep 13 2009, 10:36 PM
Maybe. New Star formula that has a much better grip. New long range driver. The plastic is ready now and has already been run for the Star Dart. The long range driver won't be ready for a couple of months.

Is the plastic as firm as the old star?
Is the distance driver the stable version of the boss mentioned previously as a possibility?

davei
Sep 13 2009, 11:09 PM
Is the plastic as firm as the old star?
Is the distance driver the stable version of the boss mentioned previously as a possibility?

The firmness will depend on the model, but in general, Star will not be as firm as Champion. We are looking for grip with Star, and that generally means softer plastic.

The distance driver is a brand new mold. We haven't tried the more stable version of the Boss, other than by plastic or process. The XCaliber type Boss will be coming up later in the year also.

cduncan
Sep 13 2009, 11:39 PM
Will the new long range driver have a larger rim then the Boss? Since I believe the Boss has a rim width of 2.5 cm not the maximum rim width allowed by the PDGA("no greater than 2.6cm"). Will the rim be exactly 2.6 or slightly under?? And with the the wider rim will it be speed 14?
Thanks

discglfr
Sep 14 2009, 01:21 AM
Dave,

Curious to know about this rule change. Specifically, I wondered if this has always been an Innova imposed rule for the Japan Open (the fact that 150 class are used) or if this has been a PDGA mandated concept? I went to Japan last year and will likely forever rate it as the best disc golf tournament on the planet. I have played in 500+ events so that's a bold statement.

Anyway - it seems strange that after ALL these years (15 or 20 plus?) the rules will be changed and it appears just for the "Open" division?

Thanks,

Terry


FYI. We are adding a slightly altered Pro 150 class in Japan next year. The Pro division will be able to use discs up to 159.4g. All other divisions and recreational play will remain the same.

What this means to you, potentially, is that more discs in the low 150s will be available.

ellswrth
Sep 14 2009, 02:12 AM
R-Pro Bosses in the high 150s and get my longest throws with them. I believe these are the biggest bang for the buck in distance driving ease and length.

Me too!

davei
Sep 14 2009, 07:08 AM
Will the new long range driver have a larger rim then the Boss? Since I believe the Boss has a rim width of 2.5 cm not the maximum rim width allowed by the PDGA("no greater than 2.6cm"). Will the rim be exactly 2.6 or slightly under?? And with the the wider rim will it be speed 14?
Thanks

The rim width depends on what the technical standards measures, but it will probably be the same 2.5cm, possibly 2.55. We are shooting for a less stable version of the Boss for recreational players and possibly a high speed turnover/roller for Pros. Speed rating will probably be the same.

davei
Sep 14 2009, 07:18 AM
Dave,

Curious to know about this rule change. Specifically, I wondered if this has always been an Innova imposed rule for the Japan Open (the fact that 150 class are used) or if this has been a PDGA mandated concept? I went to Japan last year and will likely forever rate it as the best disc golf tournament on the planet. I have played in 500+ events so that's a bold statement.

Anyway - it seems strange that after ALL these years (15 or 20 plus?) the rules will be changed and it appears just for the "Open" division?

Thanks,

Terry

It will be for all the Pro divisions, not just for Open Pro. Amateur play will remain the same. It may also be just for the Japan Open. The JPDGA mandates 150 class as they are the only ones who have an official 150 class system. Innova doesn't mandate anything in Japan. The PDGA doesn't have any official 150 class and has no official policy, as far as I know.

cgkdisc
Sep 14 2009, 09:34 AM
This wording was added to the revised PDGA Tech Standards entering 2009. So if it's not officially a "150 Class" event, the discs can have whatever weight limit the event host wants as long as they are still within PDGA approved limits.

"150 Class is the designation given to discs approved for play in Japan and other PDGA sanctioned events designated as 150 Class. All discs on the PDGA Approved list may be used in these competitions as long as their weight is 150 grams or lower."

AviarX
Sep 14 2009, 11:36 PM
Hey Dave,

Congrats on the win this past weekend! Looks like you were playing 1000 rated golf till the last round -- did you go into a conservative 'play good enough to win' mode?

What are your go-to drivers these days? What do you use these days as your mid?
do you ever carry QMS or SMS's? I have some red max weight SMS's and they are a dream!

What do you find the major difference between Star and Champ Destroyers?

davei
Sep 15 2009, 08:40 AM
Hey Dave,

Congrats on the win this past weekend! Looks like you were playing 1000 rated golf till the last round -- did you go into a conservative 'play good enough to win' mode?

What are your go-to drivers these days? What do you use these days as your mid?
do you ever carry QMS or SMS's? I have some red max weight SMS's and they are a dream!

What do you find the major difference between Star and Champ Destroyers?

Hey Rob.
Last round I went into a fog or something. I was horrible. No drive, no putt, no approach. I was trying to play normally.

My go to drivers are R-Pro Boss 157-160, and Star Destroyer 169. My mids are R-Pro Cro and Champion Coyote.

The major difference between Star and Champ Destroyers for me is the stability and the feel. The Star feels better to me and isn't quite as over stable out of the box. Star generally comes in lighter weights too. I like the way the star works in to give a long straight flight before a reasonably small fade. That's why I prefer Destroyers over Star Bosses. The Bosses are generally too low speed over stable for my game, by I do use them for sidearms in addition to the Destroyers.

gokayaksteven
Sep 15 2009, 10:59 AM
hi Dave--do you not throw any fairway mids like the TL or leopard?

AviarX
Sep 15 2009, 11:53 AM
Hey Rob.
Last round I went into a fog or something. I was horrible. No drive, no putt, no approach. I was trying to play normally.

sounds like voodoo to me -- who were the guys trying to catch you? :p

My go to drivers are R-Pro Boss 157-160, and Star Destroyer 169. My mids are R-Pro Cro and Champion Coyote.

you ought to play a week with a Sirius MS. the thing is unbelievable.
how old is that mold?

The major difference between Star and Champ Destroyers for me is the stability and the feel. The Star feels better to me and isn't quite as over stable out of the box. Star generally comes in lighter weights too. I like the way the star works in to give a long straight flight before a reasonably small fade. That's why I prefer Destroyers over Star Bosses. The Bosses are generally too low speed over stable for my game, by I do use them for sidearms in addition to the Destroyers.

i took the Boss out of my bag cause for me even with sidearm i like the Destroyer or SB Orc. But i was thinking i should carry the Boss for when i need that crazy finish way left after going straight backhand shot. I should probably also practice forcing the Boss over, but the Destroyer chews up distance so effortlessly even with hyzer...

davei
Sep 15 2009, 11:57 AM
hi Dave--do you not throw any fairway mids like the TL or leopard?


I throw Vikings and Roadrunners for fairway drivers.

pterodactyl
Sep 15 2009, 01:20 PM
Waytogo on your Major victory, Dave. Fog or no fog, you pulled it out.
Let me know if you are looking for sponsorship!!:)

pterodactyl
Sep 16 2009, 04:31 PM
Do you regularly change out your R-P B's? I loved the one I threw in the lake about 420, but its flight characteristics changed dramatically over a period of a couple days, becoming less and less stable with time.

Banzai
Sep 17 2009, 02:35 PM
Dave, I know you're working on filling out speeds 12 and 13, but the speed 6 and speed 8 ranges seem a little empty. And the extant FW drivers were mostly designed for DX, and don't fly quite right in premo plastic.

The trend in fairway drivers these days seems to be faster, and slightly larger diameter (e.g. CD, Striker, Stalker). I'd love to see a faster larger teebird-type disc ( 8, 5, 0, 2 ) or something like that. Or a slower Eagle-X (6, 4, -1, 3).

Got anything in the works for fairway drivers?

davei
Sep 17 2009, 04:03 PM
Do you regularly change out your R-P B's? I loved the one I threw in the lake about 420, but its flight characteristics changed dramatically over a period of a couple days, becoming less and less stable with time.

I did have to change them every couple of weeks with the first run. The second run was better. I am up to a few months now.

davei
Sep 17 2009, 04:09 PM
Dave, I know you're working on filling out speeds 12 and 13, but the speed 6 and speed 8 ranges seem a little empty. And the extant FW drivers were mostly designed for DX, and don't fly quite right in premo plastic.

The trend in fairway drivers these days seems to be faster, and slightly larger diameter (e.g. CD, Striker, Stalker). I'd love to see a faster larger teebird-type disc ( 8, 5, 0, 2 ) or something like that. Or a slower Eagle-X (6, 4, -1, 3).

Got anything in the works for fairway drivers?

We don't have anything planned but you never know. We do have faster TeeBird type discs, but nothing in the 8 speed line. The Starfire and Discmania's PD are faster substitutes for a TeeBird.

pterodactyl
Sep 17 2009, 04:24 PM
I did have to change them every couple of weeks with the first run. The second run was better. I am up to a few months now.

I think I'll get some of the new ones, but was thinking that the star ones would be better for me. Are they as explosively long like the R-Pro?

Furthur
Sep 17 2009, 05:06 PM
We don't have anything planned but you never know. We do have faster TeeBird type discs, but nothing in the 8 speed line. The Starfire and Discmania's PD are faster substitutes for a TeeBird.

I've been throwing the PD for a year now, and will say that it's a great faster teebird. Probably closer to a 9.5 speed, like the OLF.

davei
Sep 17 2009, 10:31 PM
I think I'll get some of the new ones, but was thinking that the star ones would be better for me. Are they as explosively long like the R-Pro?

absolutely not. The Star are much more stable, including low speed over stable, and don't have the crazy glide that the R-Pro has. Star is definitely better for control in the wind, and generel control if you have any throwing technique issues. I alway carry Star Bosses for control shots, backhand and sidearm, but for distance, nothing I know of beats the R-Pro Boss. A closer posibility would be a lighter weight Star Destroyer. I use them from 167-169. It takes a while to get them worked in enough to have a slow turn, but once they do, they will give a nice long straight flight with good glide. If you are lucky enough to wear them into a bigger turn, they become one of the best long range rollers available.

gokayaksteven
Sep 17 2009, 10:51 PM
Dave--where does the pro destroyer fit in with your above statements?
any word on the pro boss?
thanks-steven

gokayaksteven
Sep 17 2009, 11:05 PM
i guess i am asking is the star destroyer at, say 167, more or less (Hi and low speed) stable than a 167 domey pro destroyer?

davei
Sep 18 2009, 08:28 AM
Dave--where does the pro destroyer fit in with your above statements?
any word on the pro boss?
thanks-steven

I haven't been throwing the Pro Destroyer, but from recollection, I remember it to be a little more stable/over stable than the Star. The Pro Boss has started production. Not sure when the release will be. They are in a very narrow weight range from 170-175gms.

gokayaksteven
Sep 18 2009, 11:06 AM
thanks Dave--
are the under 168 star destroyers overstable like the light star bosses?

davei
Sep 18 2009, 01:39 PM
thanks Dave--
are the under 168 star destroyers overstable like the light star bosses?


No, we haven't done Starlight Destroyers yet. 168gm is normal plastic for Star Destroyers.

davei
Sep 18 2009, 01:41 PM
I haven't been throwing the Pro Destroyer, but from recollection, I remember it to be a little more stable/over stable than the Star. The Pro Boss has started production. Not sure when the release will be. They are in a very narrow weight range from 170-175gms.

I just checked on the Pro Boss and they are now running down to 167-168gm, which is good news.

pterodactyl
Sep 18 2009, 04:48 PM
Me likey!

veganray
Sep 18 2009, 04:56 PM
From DGCR:
It's a hybrid disc from the Japan open. I don't know the complete story behind it...but they were trying to make a light Monarch and apparently had to tweak the mold so it wasn't a true Monarch and it's considered a hybrid of the 2 discs....the Valkyrie/Monarch.

Is that correct, Dave? Please flesh out the story.

How 'bout <152g Monarchs with stock stamp, marked "MC"? Are they normal or some sort of chimera?

16670
Sep 18 2009, 05:18 PM
From DGCR:


Is that correct, Dave? Please flesh out the story.

How 'bout <152g Monarchs with stock stamp, marked "MC"? Are they normal or some sort of chimera?

if this is the case would it not have to be re-approved as a new disc?

davei
Sep 18 2009, 09:21 PM
From DGCR:


Is that correct, Dave? Please flesh out the story.

How 'bout <152g Monarchs with stock stamp, marked "MC"? Are they normal or some sort of chimera?

The 150 class Japan Monarch is a slightly different version of the Monarch that allows for a slightly lighter weight. It is essentially the same disc and does not require retesting according to the specs. Many of our more popular discs have several different toolings of the same model. The Roc and Aviar have many different potential versions each, for example.

pterodactyl
Sep 18 2009, 10:13 PM
if this is the case would it not have to be re-approved as a new disc?


Chimera? Is that the Latin or the more popular version?

cgkdisc
Sep 19 2009, 08:36 PM
The new Innova Mako was approved yesterday. See Tech Standards link for specs and photo.

http://www.pdga.com/tech-standards

Jgrasseth
Sep 20 2009, 01:52 AM
Dave,
What is the skinny on the Mako? Where does it fit into your current mid line up. Does name the imply that it is a variant of the Shark? What plastic will it initially be released in? Inquiring minds want to know.

two5twosix9
Sep 20 2009, 02:24 AM
Quickest shark there is.

veganray
Sep 20 2009, 08:19 AM
The 150 class Japan Monarch is a slightly different version of the Monarch that allows for a slightly lighter weight. It is essentially the same disc and does not require retesting according to the specs. Many of our more popular discs have several different toolings of the same model. The Roc and Aviar have many different potential versions each, for example.

Thx, Dave. Are 150-152g stock-stamped Monarchs marked "MC" this variant, as well, or only the "VM" Monarchs?

davei
Sep 20 2009, 10:31 AM
Dave,
What is the skinny on the Mako? Where does it fit into your current mid line up. Does name the imply that it is a variant of the Shark? What plastic will it initially be released in? Inquiring minds want to know.

Yes, the Mako name does imply a Shark like disc. Same size, but much straighter flying. Initial number look like 4,5,0,0. It has the range of a mid with the flight characteristic of a putter. Pretty straight. It will be first introduced in Star.

davei
Sep 20 2009, 10:32 AM
Thx, Dave. Are 150-152g stock-stamped Monarchs marked "MC" this variant, as well, or only the "VM" Monarchs?

They were marked both ways, I think.

rizbee
Sep 21 2009, 11:10 PM
No, we haven't done Starlight Destroyers yet. 168gm is normal plastic for Star Destroyers.

Love the "Starlight" moniker - whoever came up with that name is a true genius! And probably rewarded handsomely, no?


;)

20460chase
Sep 23 2009, 12:43 PM
Hi Dave,

Are all the newer Zephyrs going to be run in the more gummy plastic? Im looking for some of the older firm ones or maybe even some of the SE versions, will we see that again or perhaps in Star? Also, are they available for custom stamping?

hankdabank
Sep 23 2009, 01:47 PM
East coast has them available. Some 140's and the rest 180-200g.

20460chase
Sep 23 2009, 02:06 PM
East coast has them available. Some 140's and the rest 180-200g.

For stamping? I sent an email and havent got a response. Thanks!

davei
Sep 23 2009, 02:34 PM
Hi Dave,

Are all the newer Zephyrs going to be run in the more gummy plastic? Im looking for some of the older firm ones or maybe even some of the SE versions, will we see that again or perhaps in Star? Also, are they available for custom stamping?

The only Zephyrs were were able to run were DX. We tried Champion, Star, and Pro, but none ran adequately. I think I sent the two or three good parts to Chuck Kennedy.

hankdabank
Sep 23 2009, 03:03 PM
For stamping? I sent an email and havent got a response. Thanks!

Yes, they are available for custom. As you can imagine, the custom department is very busy right now. Thank you for being patient.

MischiefMKR
Sep 23 2009, 11:22 PM
Hey Dave question I read about the mako and I also heard about an understable boss Innova is also making my question is well it be the same flight characteristics as the Groove or is it gonna be understable like a Roadrunner or a Monarch and do you have a name for this disc and when do you think it may be in production.

Stan

20460chase
Sep 23 2009, 11:24 PM
The only Zephyrs were were able to run were DX. We tried Champion, Star, and Pro, but none ran adequately. I think I sent the two or three good parts to Chuck Kennedy.


Maybe R-Pro?

Thanks alot Dave!

20460chase
Sep 23 2009, 11:25 PM
Yes, they are available for custom. As you can imagine, the custom department is very busy right now. Thank you for being patient.

Yeah, I was getting emails from Zeb, just on a different account. All good, order should be in tomorrow. Thanks for your help!

mf100forever
Sep 24 2009, 05:02 AM
Maybe R-Pro?

Thanks alot Dave!

Any chance of a more stable Superclass disc (similar to the Zephyr).

davei
Sep 24 2009, 08:28 AM
Hey Dave question I read about the mako and I also heard about an understable boss Innova is also making my question is well it be the same flight characteristics as the Groove or is it gonna be understable like a Roadrunner or a Monarch and do you have a name for this disc and when do you think it may be in production.

Stan

The new disc will not be like the Groove, in that it won't have a groove. I don't know how it will fly exactly until it is molded in the plastic we settle on. That being said, I expect it to fly with more turn than a Groove. I can't predict the low speed return yet. If testing goes well in late October, it might start production then or later in the year. We have a tentative name, but don't want to release it yet.

davei
Sep 24 2009, 08:30 AM
Maybe R-Pro?

Thanks alot Dave!

Possibly, but only if it molds up more stable than DX and still has some stiffness.

davei
Sep 24 2009, 08:31 AM
Any chance of a more stable Superclass disc (similar to the Zephyr).

Only the Zephyr itself, in a more stable plastic at this point. We have had more stable Zephyrs in the past, so it can be done.

cgkdisc
Sep 24 2009, 08:59 AM
We tried Champion, Star, and Pro, but none ran adequately. I think I sent the two or three good parts to Chuck Kennedy.
I've been using them as loaners for Super Class leagues and people seem to be happy with the performance. I do agree though that they weren't ready for sale with the molding "waviness" and slick feel.

davei
Sep 24 2009, 10:11 AM
I've been using them as loaners for Super Class leagues and people seem to be happy with the performance. I do agree though that they weren't ready for sale with the molding "waviness" and slick feel.

We have a new process and new plastic we can try, when we get a chance. I am not holding my breath, though.

20460chase
Sep 24 2009, 11:48 AM
We have a new process and new plastic we can try, when we get a chance. I am not holding my breath, though.


Thats alright, Ill hold mine for you. Go Zephyrs!

Thanks Dave.

gokayaksteven
Sep 24 2009, 08:12 PM
Hi Dave-
how is the testing of the pro bosses going? closer to pro destroyers or star bosses?
thanks as always

davei
Sep 24 2009, 09:07 PM
Hi Dave-
how is the testing of the pro bosses going? closer to pro destroyers or star bosses?
thanks as always

I think the Pro Bosses are closer to Pro Destroyers than Star Bosses. I think the high speed stability of the Pro Boss is similar to the Star Boss, but the fade is reduced somewhat. The glide of the Pro is higher than the Star or Champion. The Pros have the characteristic poppy tops.

Trickay
Sep 24 2009, 10:08 PM
Hey Dave,

My favorite Innova disc of all time ...Champion Classic Roc in champion plastic. This thing is my bread and butter. Any chance you'll ever run them in the regular production line again?

they're getting hard to find......:(

gokayaksteven
Sep 24 2009, 10:16 PM
discgolfvalues has champ classic rocs for sale.

thanks for answering all our questions Dave.

davei
Sep 24 2009, 11:25 PM
Hey Dave,

My favorite Innova disc of all time ...Champion Classic Roc in champion plastic. This thing is my bread and butter. Any chance you'll ever run them in the regular production line again?

they're getting hard to find......:(

They probably won't make regular production, but they will be run again for limited release.

Trickay
Sep 24 2009, 11:54 PM
Where would I be able to find these limited edition ones? You don't mean only cfr right?

Thanks to both of you for helping me out.

John Keith
Sep 24 2009, 11:55 PM
Im wondering, With Avery's big arm and his crazy snap..why is he choosing a Star XC and a Pro Destroyer for long drives. what is it about his technique and or disc that he chooses these. I would have thought he could handle the Boss, why are top pros not chunking Ch Boss's

davei
Sep 25 2009, 08:15 AM
Where would I be able to find these limited edition ones? You don't mean only cfr right?

Thanks to both of you for helping me out.


When we run them, they will be in limited release. We will decide then whether they are in custom hot stamping or some other program, probably not just cfr. I don't know which program they are in now.

mikeP
Sep 25 2009, 09:52 AM
Im wondering, With Avery's big arm and his crazy snap..why is he choosing a Star XC and a Pro Destroyer for long drives. what is it about his technique and or disc that he chooses these. I would have thought he could handle the Boss, why are top pros not chunking Ch Boss's

For players that throw as hard as Avery the flight characteristics of discs are very different. A Boss is a very fast disc that is designed to become understable at very high speeds. Most people do not throw hard enough to push the Boss to turn, but for those who can attain these high disc speeds easily the Boss may flip too fast. Both of Avery's drivers (pro Destroyer, XC) are slower than the Boss which means they flip slower as well, so Avery probably gets more predictable action out of them. Avery would throw just as far on the course if every disc faster than the Teebird was outlawed. He has power to burn.

20460chase
Sep 25 2009, 01:19 PM
He told me Champion Boss' are inconsitant. He was throwing Stars for most of the summer, but likes the Eco XCals the most. Almost everyone Ive played with that has crushing D uses the original Eco Xcals.

John Keith
Sep 25 2009, 01:42 PM
I thought so, most top open player i see are not throwing the CH Boss, not that its not a good disc, but if you have the arm speed and strength to torque, then The Star XC seems more consistant for that throw. Im curious cause I have pretty good snap and flip, I find the Boss's to be squirly for me, so im not confident with them...even thow on a perfect shot i can add 40feet to a drive, I need consistancy to compete in tournys. So I took my Boss's out and am trying to see if i can keep the same shots with star XC and echo Star XC

Drew32
Sep 25 2009, 03:25 PM
When will the Halloween discs be available and what models are you running this time around?

davei
Sep 25 2009, 03:51 PM
When will the Halloween discs be available and what models are you running this time around?

Star Boss, DX Roc, DX Aviar

MTChristian
Sep 25 2009, 04:28 PM
Part of it is that newer discs take longer to work into pro's bags since they already have time put in learning the slightly slower ones. I personally just like the Xcal/Destroyer combo more than bosses and I don't think I'm alone there. Both the Xcal and D are just such awesome discs that I haven't found the extra distance that bosses provide worth it to make the switch (...yet, perhaps).

Second the Champ Classic Roc request--it's my bread and butter too! Especially the more stable ones...some of the recent CFR runs weren't as stable as the old regular production runs used to be and were pretty different discs. So whatever stabilizing processes there are out there perhaps they can be applied the new CCR :) I'll try and hold on to my diminishing stack until such a day...

Can't wait to try out the Mako, sounds very cool. And I can't wait to try the star dart either...the flight characteristics of the dart blew me away when it first came out but I couldn't quite get used to the plastic (i prefer stiffer plastic), so I can't wait to see how it flies in star. Might just be darting into the bag!

What about "The Awesome" for the new understable long range driver? You can use that one for free. Actually that's probably already its prototype name and I just didn't know it. In which case, great thinking and sorry for blowing the cover.

Can't wait to see everyone in Rock Hill (mmmm factory mmmm) for the sweetest family reunion around!

Christian

FizzyP
Sep 28 2009, 03:45 AM
When you can throw a 550' hyzer like this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KL2RNcy0_qo

all kinds of discs are "squirly".

tokyo
Sep 29 2009, 07:05 PM
Hey Dave any word on what the signature disc is going to be for Avery?

davei
Sep 29 2009, 07:45 PM
Hey Dave any word on what the signature disc is going to be for Avery?

What would you suggest?

dangle
Sep 29 2009, 08:32 PM
What would you suggest?

Pro Destroyer? Eco-XCal?

dangle
Sep 29 2009, 08:32 PM
Hey Dave,

Any sweet discs coming to the USDGC this year? Anything us spectators can pick up in the shop?

cgkdisc
Sep 29 2009, 10:20 PM
What would you suggest?
I think Avery might get the World distance record for the Zephyr (if he tried officially) :)

MischiefMKR
Sep 29 2009, 10:47 PM
Dave can u explain in idoit language on how a max dome affects a disc compared to a no dome/flat top say on a destroyer

pdorries
Sep 29 2009, 10:58 PM
What would you suggest?

whippet-x

MichaelWebster
Sep 30 2009, 12:35 AM
I think an xcal for Avery. Also, I noticed the Champ sidewinder has been retooled a little, I havent thrown it yet, so I dont have a feel for how it flies.

I'm just curious, what was the incentive for the retool, and have you noticed any variations in flights?

davei
Sep 30 2009, 08:27 AM
Hey Dave,

Any sweet discs coming to the USDGC this year? Anything us spectators can pick up in the shop?

Besides the Spectator Roc, there will be grippy Star Darts, Eco Star Darts, Star Makos, and Pro Bosses.

davei
Sep 30 2009, 08:40 AM
Dave can u explain in idoit language on how a max dome affects a disc compared to a no dome/flat top say on a destroyer

The domier a disc is, the more lift/glide it will have vs flatter discs. This is at the cost of a little speed. So upwind shots will not go quite as far, but downwind and no wind shots will glide farther. Also, the dome helps to prevent early fade.

On the other hand, if the dome was caused by excessive shrink of the rim, it will cause the disc to be less stable at high speeds, than a non domey disc of the same type. Some materials, (like Pro), produce high domes with relatively little shrink, and are therefor still stable with more glide. With DX, dome is almost always indicative of shrink and instability when comparing a domey DX disc with a non domey DX of the same model.

davei
Sep 30 2009, 08:45 AM
I think an xcal for Avery. Also, I noticed the Champ sidewinder has been retooled a little, I havent thrown it yet, so I dont have a feel for how it flies.

I'm just curious, what was the incentive for the retool, and have you noticed any variations in flights?

There was a minor tooling change that didn't affect the appearance or performance of the Sidewinder. It did make the disc easier to make. I am surprised you could have noticed.

futurecollisions
Sep 30 2009, 10:45 AM
Besides the Spectator Roc, there will be grippy Star Darts, Eco Star Darts, Star Makos, and Pro Bosses.


Im really looking forward to pro bosses around 167-169g.

And I say xcal for the Avery signature disc.

Thanks Dave

20460chase
Sep 30 2009, 12:26 PM
I would suggest Avery win some more championships. I guess I just always assumed there was a longer line of more deserving players. I wonder how some of the players that have won multiple championships and dominated for more than a season and a half feel about it?

mrspank
Sep 30 2009, 04:42 PM
They might feel like they should've been born a few years later, when signature discs actually existed. Could've had some of their own in their day. Unfortunately, their day has probably passed by now. Not to rag on the old-timers, but I doubt many of today's newer players would be enticed by a stamp that says "5x Senior GM Champ". I like your question though, I'm sure it will stimulate some good conversation.

bob
Sep 30 2009, 04:56 PM
What signature disc will Harold get? :)

HD Signature disc supporter
Bob Graham

hankdabank
Sep 30 2009, 05:20 PM
There should be a new disc called the DVD. That could be Harold's sig disc.

Who wouldn't want to throw an HD DVD?

20460chase
Sep 30 2009, 05:23 PM
Not to rag on the old-timers, but I doubt many of today's newer players would be enticed by a stamp that says "5x Senior GM Champ". I like your question though, I'm sure it will stimulate some good conversation.

That depends on the disc. If its the newest thing out it wouldnt matter. And actually, it wouldnt matter anyways, as the PDGA and its members only represent a small customer base for Innova.
60% of our customers dont know what Grandmasters is let alone who the player is. I can understand that perception towards Womens Sig discs, but cant understand why you would alienate that market.

I guess, Im saying if any Jenkins deserves a disc, its Val.

mrspank
Sep 30 2009, 06:02 PM
I agree that Val deserves a disc. She is current and on top of the female side of the sport. And she also throws the Pro Destroyer. How 'bout a co-signature disc for the Jenkins siblings? 4 world championships between them, if my math is correct. :)

veganray
Sep 30 2009, 06:04 PM
Val is current and on top of the female side of the sport.
Sarah Stanhope might have something to say about that.

poisonelf
Sep 30 2009, 06:46 PM
I know at one time that innova use to run molds for whamo, is there even the slightest chance that you all might ever run 86 softies again? (hopefully in some more durable plastic, last i heard was the DTworld has the mold)?

tokyo
Sep 30 2009, 07:36 PM
I think Star Echo X cals would be good for Avery or yes the whippet-x might be good as well.

davei
Sep 30 2009, 09:38 PM
I know at one time that innova use to run molds for whamo, is there even the slightest chance that you all might ever run 86 softies again? (hopefully in some more durable plastic, last i heard was the DTworld has the mold)?

We have already turned down that oportunity twice. We really don't have the facilities or time for it. We mold our own discs, plus discs for three other companies. We are booked. I believe that DTWorld does currently license the mold.

two5twosix9
Oct 01 2009, 04:24 PM
Besides the Spectator Roc, there will be grippy Star Darts, Eco Star Darts, Star Makos, and Pro Bosses.

I am curious about this grippy star plastic. Is it softer and less durable than regular star? A rubber star mix?

LastBoyScout
Oct 01 2009, 04:38 PM
What would you suggest?

I would go with a Whippet-X top (and spacer if one is used for that mold) and the bottom half of an XCal.

Then call it the Jenk.

i can here it now. Dude! Did you see me Jenk that hole! It almost went in! That was almost Avery Jenkins like!

davei
Oct 01 2009, 04:45 PM
I am curious about this grippy star plastic. Is it softer and less durable than regular star? A rubber star mix?

Not a mix. It is softer but should be just as durable as regular Star. I have been testing one for a few weeks and have no issues, what ever.

AviarX
Oct 01 2009, 09:30 PM
I know at one time that innova use to run molds for whamo, is there even the slightest chance that you all might ever run 86 softies again? (hopefully in some more durable plastic, last i heard was the DTworld has the mold)?


We have already turned down that opportunity twice. We really don't have the facilities or time for it. We mold our own discs, plus discs for three other companies. We are booked. I believe that DTWorld does currently license the mold.

That is pretty funny considering it was Whamo turning down your innovative disc design that forced you to create Innova :-)

unclemercy
Oct 02 2009, 11:43 AM
iron lion polls it's customers about the pdga grandmaster division?

20460chase
Oct 02 2009, 02:54 PM
iron lion polls it's customers about the pdga grandmaster division?


LOL, not really, though the 2x Advanced Grandmasters Champ is from the area. That reflects how large the recreational base is and how little the impact would be with business like ours.

stack
Oct 04 2009, 08:51 PM
Hey Dave any word on what the signature disc is going to be for Avery?

just asked Avery this today and he said Pro Destroyer

MischiefMKR
Oct 05 2009, 08:27 PM
Here is my question is a lighter disc less stable lets say a 169 star wraith to a 175 star wraith? I have alot of snap on my throws and can bomb to 450. I heard that lighter discs can hyzer-flip stright easier then a max weight also holds lines better is there anytrust to this.

20460chase
Oct 05 2009, 08:58 PM
You bomb 450 and dont know the answer to that question? MBD.

mikeP
Oct 05 2009, 11:52 PM
Here is my question is a lighter disc less stable lets say a 169 star wraith to a 175 star wraith? I have alot of snap on my throws and can bomb to 450. I heard that lighter discs can hyzer-flip stright easier then a max weight also holds lines better is there anytrust to this.

Not unless you have impeccably clean form/release. Otherwise with that kind of power you are likely going to find lighter discs less consistent and predictable. Personally I can throw lighter discs higher and further in the wide open, but I have more controllable line drive golf D with heavier discs. So I don't play golf with the light discs.

futurecollisions
Oct 06 2009, 10:51 AM
Here is my question is a lighter disc less stable lets say a 169 star wraith to a 175 star wraith? I have alot of snap on my throws and can bomb to 450. I heard that lighter discs can hyzer-flip stright easier then a max weight also holds lines better is there anytrust to this.

I have been trying to figure this out since i started playing. It seems to vary for each mold and each plastic. I think when you get below 169g there are some anomolies and certain discs get crazy overstable around 166g. Dave has explained this in the past as the way lighter discs cool off and the additives used to stabilize lighter weights.

For instance i have a 166g pro destroyer that is more overstable than any of my 175 discs and a 165g star destroyer that is probably the most overstable disc i have at all

MischiefMKR
Oct 06 2009, 04:54 PM
I am asking because I lost a star wraith the flipped striaght and went in a stright line for about 350 then hzyers and had that thing since i started playing last year. This is my only 2nd year playing golf and i only thrown max weight discs and I am just asking cuz I wanna get some idea if light is easier to hzyer flip flat. Also dont really wanna work in another discs lol

davei
Oct 06 2009, 08:00 PM
I am asking because I lost a star wraith the flipped striaght and went in a stright line for about 350 then hzyers and had that thing since i started playing last year. This is my only 2nd year playing golf and i only thrown max weight discs and I am just asking cuz I wanna get some idea if light is easier to hzyer flip flat. Also dont really wanna work in another discs lol

You should probably stay with a similar weight you are used to if you were getting the results you wanted. All things equal, and they rarely are, a lighter weight disc would be easier to flip if it has a natural turn in the first place. A wraith does have a natural turn. However, you can look for a domier Wraith, as opposed to a flatter one to help you with hyzer flips. The dome should help it stay flipped once you get it over.

MattyInRR
Oct 09 2009, 04:33 PM
Hey Dave! when can we expect to see pro boss's at our local retailer? Thanks!

two5twosix9
Oct 10 2009, 01:52 AM
Hey Dave! when can we expect to see pro boss's at our local retailer? Thanks!

The release date is the 19th.

MattyInRR
Oct 10 2009, 11:11 AM
cool thanks

stack
Oct 11 2009, 10:40 PM
i'll see if there is a different thread just for the usdgc roc release but does anyone know where to find the spreadsheet they always seem to have that shows how many of each type (stamp, color, etc) are out there? Also I heard the orange inn color are the rarest for those runs... any numbers on the blue, yellow, orange for that run?

two5twosix9
Oct 12 2009, 02:52 AM
Hey stack, this is way off topic but I can't resist. I am not sure how old you are or if you are a basketball fan but I just lost my sonics. I am currious if you were a hornets fan and if so have you been able to accept the bobcats as your team?

Sorry for the topic drift. Thanks.

eclipseram
Oct 12 2009, 03:08 PM
Dave, any word on when that test run on the R-pro Polecats will happen?

gippy
Oct 12 2009, 09:31 PM
i'll see if there is a different thread just for the usdgc roc release but does anyone know where to find the spreadsheet they always seem to have that shows how many of each type (stamp, color, etc) are out there? Also I heard the orange inn color are the rarest for those runs... any numbers on the blue, yellow, orange for that run?

Championroc.com

stack
Oct 13 2009, 12:19 AM
Championroc.com

thanks but nothing for 2010 yet... any word on how long it usually takes for them to release info on the current set?

Hey stack, this is way off topic but I can't resist. I am not sure how old you are or if you are a basketball fan but I just lost my sonics. I am currious if you were a hornets fan and if so have you been able to accept the bobcats as your team?

Sorry for the topic drift. Thanks.

don't want to feed the drift but I moved to NC the year the bobcats started... normally could care less about NBA but my buddy worked for the team so i got to go to a lot of games for free so i'm kind of a bobcats fans... most fans around here are warming up to the team but its hard when the hornet's were so successful yet left on bad terms

weaves
Oct 13 2009, 01:12 AM
i'll see if there is a different thread just for the usdgc roc release but does anyone know where to find the spreadsheet they always seem to have that shows how many of each type (stamp, color, etc) are out there? Also I heard the orange inn color are the rarest for those runs... any numbers on the blue, yellow, orange for that run?

i heard it will be on zonedriven in a few weeks. i know this so far though. there were 25 glow rocs (the first 5 were pure-embossed). there were 10 star rocs with the hot stamp (0990-1000). where did u hear that the orange were the rarest for the inn colors? (not calling you a liar stack, im just wondering cause i have no idea myself) I have 5 and 6 and they are yellow background as are 1-4 (however im not sure how many total are yellow).

stack
Oct 13 2009, 01:31 AM
no prob Weaves... i was wondering what you were able to get from camping out... you ended up 3rd in line right? i bought mine during the awards ceremony (there were some held aside for volunteers and players). I read the part about the orange ones from some auctions on ebay and I believe someone said a collector also said that. not a reliable source ... hearsay for now.

thanks for the info on the couple weeks though ... i've been checking zonedriven

my inn-color has the blue background #239 i think
and my champ is blue w/ white stamp and #430 something

davei
Oct 13 2009, 08:43 AM
Dave, any word on when that test run on the R-pro Polecats will happen?


Hopefully, this week.

Trey133
Oct 13 2009, 01:41 PM
Weaves and Phily Phil Phil got some of the prettiest rocs i've ever seen... and I was 6th in line :(

Those pure embossed glow's are NIIIIIICE.

weaves
Oct 13 2009, 07:05 PM
i saw 3 of the 5 embossed glows. mine is ice colored. the other 2 i saw were more yellow but there was very little difference. i heard one of them sold Saturday for $250. I also heard the 10 stars were going for $150ish.

bpait
Oct 14 2009, 12:18 PM
Can anyone tell me which Champion/Star bosses are flippy. I have a 167 star boss and it is so far from flippy it is almost as overstable as a firebird. Would love to find one but not really sure what I am looking for. thanks

Drew32
Oct 14 2009, 12:53 PM
Can anyone tell me which Champion/Star bosses are flippy. I have a 167 star boss and it is so far from flippy it is almost as overstable as a firebird. Would love to find one but not really sure what I am looking for. thanks

Look for the flat ones. The domey ones are the overstable ones.

bpait
Oct 14 2009, 01:02 PM
Thank you

Breeze
Oct 14 2009, 03:25 PM
Look for the flat ones. The domey ones are the overstable ones.

Flat Champs are flippy

dgdave
Oct 14 2009, 03:39 PM
Heavier star bosses also flip more

ChrisWoj
Oct 15 2009, 05:05 AM
When you can throw a 550' hyzer like this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KL2RNcy0_qo

all kinds of discs are "squirly".
That hole isn't 550'. I LOLed reading the description on the page. I've thrown to within 20 feet of that hole on the hyzer line and I can get 500+ only if I put at least a shallow S on the disc. No way in hell that's more than 480'.

futurecollisions
Oct 15 2009, 12:50 PM
That hole isn't 550'. I LOLed reading the description on the page. I've thrown to within 20 feet of that hole on the hyzer line and I can get 500+ only if I put at least a shallow S on the disc. No way in hell that's more than 480'.

I agree with this, id say its 450-480

mikeP
Oct 16 2009, 12:49 PM
Dave,

I have a question regarding the stabilization process that you mentioned some time ago. Have you done this with Champ Orcs? I'm just wondering because I have thrown many Champ Orcs since they came out and fairly recently I started to find ones that are really stiff, domey, and high speed stable. Is it safe to assume these have been "stabilized"? Are domey/stiff characteristics of the stabilized discs in general? I am wondering because this is something I look for in most my Champ discs and this would make them easier to pick out of a stack before I spend my $$. Thanks as always!

davei
Oct 16 2009, 02:24 PM
Dave,

I have a question regarding the stabilization process that you mentioned some time ago. Have you done this with Champ Orcs? I'm just wondering because I have thrown many Champ Orcs since they came out and fairly recently I started to find ones that are really stiff, domey, and high speed stable. Is it safe to assume these have been "stabilized"? Are domey/stiff characteristics of the stabilized discs in general? I am wondering because this is something I look for in most my Champ discs and this would make them easier to pick out of a stack before I spend my $$. Thanks as always!

We have used the process for Night Shift Orcs and Champion Orcs. They are stiffer, but I am not sure about the dome on the Orcs. The Champion bosses that were stablized did have a nice dome.

JohnLambert
Oct 16 2009, 03:09 PM
I'm confused. I've been trying to find a 'go to' driver for a long time now. I though the max pro destroyers were the answer, but I can't control them anymore. As soon as I let go they start flipping. I tried the max champ Xcals for awhile and found it was just a fairway driver in disguise. So I went to the max first run Boss. Wow. Awesome discs. I lost it and can't find another one. I bought the second wave "stabilized" bosses and I just can't get them dialed in right. I bought a R-pro destroyer and it was a good disc for about 3 days, then turned to mush. So I went back and decided to season up a max weight stable champion boss. I think I finally worked it in as my primary driver. Unfortunately it's a little squirrely sometimes, with the slightest breeze I'll flip it to the right too much. It seems as my arm has developed I have lost touch with good distance drivers. Should I just tone it down a bit or is their a disc that I can rip on, get great D, and not have to replace it every month?

FYI: I took 6 discs out to an open area with a slight breeze blowing. Here are my results:

6mph tailwind
Pro destroyer - threw with extreme hyzer but flipped to extreme anhyzer. roughly 300'
R-pro boss - threw with some hyzer, flipped and ended up finishing to the right, but not as bad as destroyer. 350'
Champion Xcal - Threw flat to slight anny, disc flipped straight for 350', then finished on a hyzer. 380'
Champion Boss - Threw with a slight hyzer, disc flipped up to slight anny, flew straight for 400', then finished slight hyzer. Total distance 435'

Similar results in head wind, but everything flipped a little more and I lost 20 feet distance on longest drive.

So as you can see the seasoned boss is my primary for distance, but it took me awhile to get it in shape. I'm excited to try the Pro Boss, hoping they come out with a max weight of 175g.

gippy
Oct 16 2009, 05:39 PM
I'm confused. I've been trying to find a 'go to' driver for a long time now. I though the max pro destroyers were the answer, but I can't control them anymore. As soon as I let go they start flipping. I tried the max champ Xcals for awhile and found it was just a fairway driver in disguise. So I went to the max first run Boss. Wow. Awesome discs. I lost it and can't find another one. I bought the second wave "stabilized" bosses and I just can't get them dialed in right. I bought a R-pro destroyer and it was a good disc for about 3 days, then turned to mush. So I went back and decided to season up a max weight stable champion boss. I think I finally worked it in as my primary driver. Unfortunately it's a little squirrely sometimes, with the slightest breeze I'll flip it to the right too much. It seems as my arm has developed I have lost touch with good distance drivers. Should I just tone it down a bit or is their a disc that I can rip on, get great D, and not have to replace it every month?

FYI: I took 6 discs out to an open area with a slight breeze blowing. Here are my results:

6mph tailwind
Pro destroyer - threw with extreme hyzer but flipped to extreme anhyzer. roughly 300'
R-pro boss - threw with some hyzer, flipped and ended up finishing to the right, but not as bad as destroyer. 350'
Champion Xcal - Threw flat to slight anny, disc flipped straight for 350', then finished on a hyzer. 380'
Champion Boss - Threw with a slight hyzer, disc flipped up to slight anny, flew straight for 400', then finished slight hyzer. Total distance 435'

Similar results in head wind, but everything flipped a little more and I lost 20 feet distance on longest drive.

So as you can see the seasoned boss is my primary for distance, but it took me awhile to get it in shape. I'm excited to try the Pro Boss, hoping they come out with a max weight of 175g.

Try a Champ Destroyer I find they are consitent right out of the box. May take a bit a field practice but it should work well for you

MischiefMKR
Oct 18 2009, 02:47 PM
Well are you sure you are not flipping ur wrist when you are goin through ur followin thru ur body i had the same thing happen to me when i first started. An in a head wind a disc will get more understable I throw a Champ boss for hyzer headwind shots. My go to is a Wraith i have 3 of em :)

davei
Oct 18 2009, 08:04 PM
The new disc will not be like the Groove, in that it won't have a groove. I don't know how it will fly exactly until it is molded in the plastic we settle on. That being said, I expect it to fly with more turn than a Groove. I can't predict the low speed return yet. If testing goes well in late October, it might start production then or later in the year. We have a tentative name, but don't want to release it yet.

I have been testing the Katana over the weekend. It has more turn than the Groove in Pro driver plastic, which is what has been made so far, along with test shots of Champion and R-Pro.

So far, the Pro Katanas look pretty good for distance challenged throwers, hyzer flip at less than max power, and power rollers. Power rollers can throw flat to slightly turned over and let the disc do the work. Power throwers should probably pass on this disc except for specific uses such as high turnovers and rollers.

The Katana in all three plastics tested so far is more speed sensitive than all of our other high speed drivers. This basically means it will flip considerably more into the wind than down wind. The R-Pro Katana is flippier than the R-Pro Boss and flippier than the Pro Katana, so it probably won't go into general production. The relative wind speed sensitivity makes assigning a turn number a little challenging, but for 400+ft throwers the turn for Pro will be at least a -3. For 350 ft max throwers, the turn will be less, (except into a wind). And, I don't recommend throwing these into a wind. Tentative flight numbers are: 13, 5, -3, 3.


Testing of normal Champion was unimpressive, compared to Pro, but the addition of the stabilizing process might change that. Though we haven't tested it in Starlight as yet, I believe that will prove successful.

The Pro will probably come out at the end of the year in general release. Before then, a limited amount of Pro, and a very limited amount of Champion and R-Pro will be available through Herodiscusa as a fundraiser for the Japan Open.

John Keith
Oct 18 2009, 11:57 PM
Try a Champ Destroyer I find they are consitent right out of the box. May take a bit a field practice but it should work well for you

i agree go throw a champ destroyer, you should get almost the D of boss with more feel and better controllability

mikeP
Oct 19 2009, 09:40 AM
i agree go throw a champ destroyer, you should get almost the D of boss with more feel and better controllability

"Feel" and "controllability" are pretty subjective to your personal experience. I threw Champion Destroyers for a while, but as soon as the DF Champ Boss came out I found it better for me in every way. That being said, I don't find any disc faster than speed 10 particularly good as a "go-to" disc for line shaping.

cgkdisc
Oct 19 2009, 11:46 AM
The Katana has been added to the PDGA list of Approved discs.
http://www.pdga.com/tech-standards

20460chase
Oct 20 2009, 02:27 PM
Hi Dave,

Awhile back I asked about a Whippet-X I got. Heres the picture, form another thread on here. Its at the bottom. Any input?

Also, how bout them Zephyrs?

http://www.pdga.com/discussion/showthread.php?p=1399029#post1399029

davei
Oct 20 2009, 03:44 PM
Hi Dave,

Awhile back I asked about a Whippet-X I got. Heres the picture, form another thread on here. Its at the bottom. Any input?

Also, how bout them Zephyrs?

http://www.pdga.com/discussion/showthread.php?p=1399029#post1399029

No Zephyrs yet. Still catching up on inventory. The Whippet-X is from Roger Curley of Oak Grove Park, (now Hahamongna Watershed Park), Pasadena, California. It was done several (5+?) years ago. I don't remember the exact plastic. The little figure in the background appears to be a stylized
Oak Grove Gopher

FizzyP
Oct 20 2009, 04:01 PM
That hole isn't 550'. I LOLed reading the description on the page. I've thrown to within 20 feet of that hole on the hyzer line and I can get 500+ only if I put at least a shallow S on the disc. No way in hell that's more than 480'.

You're totally right. I shouldn't have trusted the comment next to the original video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KL2RNcy0_qo

I just measured it with Google Maps and got ~450. Even if you measure the actual flight path and give it some generous curvature you can barely get over 500'.

FizzyP
Oct 20 2009, 04:14 PM
6mph tailwind
Pro destroyer - threw with extreme hyzer but flipped to extreme anhyzer. roughly 300'
R-pro boss - threw with some hyzer, flipped and ended up finishing to the right, but not as bad as destroyer. 350'
Champion Xcal - Threw flat to slight anny, disc flipped straight for 350', then finished on a hyzer. 380'
Champion Boss - Threw with a slight hyzer, disc flipped up to slight anny, flew straight for 400', then finished slight hyzer. Total distance 435'.


I'm no pro, to be sure, but the inconsistency in these results makes me think disc selection is not the problem. Especially the first shot. You threw a Pro destroyer and it went from extreme hyzer to near roller and only went 300'? Even if the disc was beat to death the only way I can imagine this happening is if you shank it straight into the ground!

Then you throw a nice S-curve with champ boss, 435' ? Are you sure about these measurements?

What happens when you try to throw hyzer shots with putters or midranges in the 250'+ range? Do you have success with this?

Also, the X-Cal is a fairway driver in disguise? ... What?! That disc is ridiculously fast! I have no idea what you're talking about. You should explain.

dehaas
Oct 20 2009, 04:21 PM
Hi Dave, I'd just ordered a pro starfire and was suprised when my shipment arrived that it felt more like star plastic than pro. The plastic felt real nice, but felt nothing like any other pro starfire, or any other pro plastic for that matter. Is the blend for pro plastic being tweaked, or is this just an oddball run? I haven't had a chance to throw it much...just in the field next door to my place, and it feels more overstable than my other pro starfires also. I could be wrong, but weren't the first pro starfires from the SL mold...are the new ones still from the mold, or from the standard starfire mold? Thanks a lot.

LastBoyScout
Oct 20 2009, 05:12 PM
Dave, i was cleaning out some boxes and found a Pro Line (champion plastic) Beast and a Champion 2003 Barry Schultz beast that i thought i had lost, and apparently misplaced.

Upon taking them out to the field, they were stable compared to my 2X Champ Beasts and Star Beasts.

Did the mold get changed a while back, and I just didnt notice?

Thanks,

LBS

JohnLambert
Oct 20 2009, 06:03 PM
I'm no pro, to be sure, but the inconsistency in these results makes me think disc selection is not the problem. Especially the first shot. You threw a Pro destroyer and it went from extreme hyzer to near roller and only went 300'? Even if the disc was beat to death the only way I can imagine this happening is if you shank it straight into the ground!
The disc landed on it's right edge and rolled in a circle. If I had thrown it higher it would have certainly gone further in the wrong direction.

Then you throw a nice S-curve with champ boss, 435' ? Are you sure about these measurements?

This one I am certain of, this particular area has a basket that is marked 425' from the tee. The tee signs were laser measured by a friend of mine. I threw past the basket roughly 10 feet. I didn't actually measure how far past the basket, but I can deduct that I had an easy putt and not a drop-in.

What happens when you try to throw hyzer shots with putters or midranges in the 250'+ range? Do you have success with this?

No success. However, I have had success with the WASP and DRONE. My poor upshot form only allows me to throw stable midrange discs. If I need to go the other direction I just sidearm. :)

Also, the X-Cal is a fairway driver in disguise? ... What?! That disc is ridiculously fast! I have no idea what you're talking about. You should explain.

Not to be taken seriously. I'm just not a fan of the Xcal. I have one in my bag that I use for headwind hyzers only. Even when I get what seems to be a good S curve out of it I can not throw it anywhere near my distance drivers. I called it a fairway driver because I throw it when I only need a 300-350 foot accuracy shot.

dgdave
Oct 20 2009, 06:25 PM
The beast was changed a while back. Its now an L type mold. It overlapped with the Orc too much.

FizzyP
Oct 20 2009, 07:48 PM
No success. However, I have had success with the WASP and DRONE. My poor upshot form only allows me to throw stable midrange discs. If I need to go the other direction I just sidearm. :)


Once again, I'm no pro, and I'm not trying to be mean either. But I'm pretty sure it's not just the upshots. I bet if you put the effort into learning how to throw clean laser-beams and hyzers shots with putters and midranges in the 250'-300' range your driver problems will go away as well. It sounds like you're throwing with lots of off axis torque. Even worse, it seems like the amount of OAT is variable and not under your conscious control.

The exreme hyzer shots turning over MORE is the surest sign. Your conscious mind sets up super hyzer because you think the disc is going to turn over. But then when you actually throw your unconscious is aware that you've put a silly about of hyzer on the disc and attempts to correct it... which results in immediately turning the disc over like mad.

Definitely, work on throwing straight and hyzer shots with putters with lots of spin. Once you can do that you'll find the drivers behave totally different.

FizzyP
Oct 20 2009, 08:11 PM
Testing of normal Champion was unimpressive, compared to Pro, but the addition of the stabilizing process might change that.

What do you mean by "unimpressive"?

davei
Oct 20 2009, 08:31 PM
What do you mean by "unimpressive"?

All it had, from my point of view, was speed. The glide wasn't as good as the Pro, and the turn wasn't as playable for me. Steve Wisecup, had a different opinion though. He was doing independent testing and determined he liked the Champion version over the Pro. The difference might be that he is a flat to anhyzer thrower, and I am a hyzer thrower. He liked the added stability and speed of the Champion. I didn't. I believe the middle ground will be with Star, but we won't know until we get back to running them again. Right now, we don't have time.

davei
Oct 20 2009, 08:37 PM
Hi Dave, I'd just ordered a pro starfire and was suprised when my shipment arrived that it felt more like star plastic than pro. The plastic felt real nice, but felt nothing like any other pro starfire, or any other pro plastic for that matter. Is the blend for pro plastic being tweaked, or is this just an oddball run? I haven't had a chance to throw it much...just in the field next door to my place, and it feels more overstable than my other pro starfires also. I could be wrong, but weren't the first pro starfires from the SL mold...are the new ones still from the mold, or from the standard starfire mold? Thanks a lot.

Pro plastic has evolved several times over the years. It is more like Star than it used to be to try and give it more durability. The big draw for Pro is the grip and that it domes up more than our other plastics but doesn't get unstable when it does. I believe we are using the regular Starfire mold for Pro because the SL mold was having issues. The break in period may take a little longer.

davei
Oct 20 2009, 08:39 PM
Dave, i was cleaning out some boxes and found a Pro Line (champion plastic) Beast and a Champion 2003 Barry Schultz beast that i thought i had lost, and apparently misplaced.

Upon taking them out to the field, they were stable compared to my 2X Champ Beasts and Star Beasts.

Did the mold get changed a while back, and I just didnt notice?

Thanks,

LBS

Yes, the mold was changed slightly several years ago. We felt the Orc and the Beast were too similar. We wanted the Beast to turn more.

davei
Oct 20 2009, 08:42 PM
The beast was changed a while back. Its now an L type mold. It overlapped with the Orc too much.

Sorry. I also answered this before I read this post.

20460chase
Oct 20 2009, 10:07 PM
No Zephyrs yet. Still catching up on inventory. The Whippet-X is from Roger Curley of Oak Grove Park, (now Hahamongna Watershed Park), Pasadena, California. It was done several (5+?) years ago. I don't remember the exact plastic. The little figure in the background appears to be a stylized
Oak Grove Gopher

Thank You Sir.

two5twosix9
Oct 21 2009, 01:36 AM
John,
It seems that you are releasing with extreme anhyzer or rolling your wrist. You can start at a hyzer angle but if you roll your wrist over you will flip the disc hard because you are actually releasing anhyzer. Awrist roll is hard to depict while throwing it because everything is set up and executed like a hyzer until the last second when your wrist rolls and your follow through comes down instead of up. Pay attention to your follow through, you want to follow through on the same angle the disc is traveling. A hyzer should follow through up, anhyzer down, and flat should be a straight follow through. Go get a valkyree and learn how to throw it with a hyzer release and get it to helix with control. It appears that you are trying to throw the fast stuff too hard. Tone it down and be smooth with a valk. After a few months move to a beast, then an orc, wraith, destroyer/excal, boss. Make sure you give each mold the time needed to learn it properly and be patient. I have decent distance but it is controlled and I wouldn't have it or be able to control it if it weren't for my form. Work on learning to fly the disc by puting it in flight instead of forcing it. Start slow, good luck!

gokayaksteven
Oct 21 2009, 03:27 PM
Hi Dave-
did the lighter pro bosses turn out any more or less stable than the heavy ones?

atreau3
Oct 21 2009, 04:08 PM
wow! Japan open sight is down, too many people trying to buy Katanas?

Tip, I just bought 4 pro, 4 champ...

Disc golf values has a limitied amount available!

https://www.discgolfvalues.com/store/index.php?act=viewCat&catId=19

E

veganray
Oct 21 2009, 04:25 PM
I just called John Ahart to get my order in as the site crashed. End-arounds rule!

atreau3
Oct 21 2009, 04:26 PM
Sure do!

:)

davei
Oct 21 2009, 04:27 PM
Hi Dave-
did the lighter pro bosses turn out any more or less stable than the heavy ones?


I didn't throw the very heavy ones, but my impression was that the heavier were a bit more stable than the lighter. This is generally was happens. The exception might be for Starlight when we use a variation of Star to get lighter weights.

dgdave
Oct 21 2009, 04:41 PM
I get to DGV early enough to grab the Champs. I want some x-outs though. oh well.

pdorries
Oct 21 2009, 04:51 PM
pretty lame that the hero site was down and when i actually got logged in to it, they were all sold out. come on here to the forum and see that disc golf values had some, and now they are out of the champion ones as well.

50 minutes after "release" and I can't even order some champion katana.. that really sucks.

davei
Oct 21 2009, 05:22 PM
I have been told that nothing has been sold yet. They are having server issues and are presently working on it. There was no time frame given for expected resolution.

dgdave
Oct 21 2009, 05:31 PM
DGV only had 30

rizbee
Oct 21 2009, 07:45 PM
Hi Dave,

What are the expected range of weights for the Katana? Any chance that they will make it down into the 150's in any plastic?

Thanks,

Rizbee

davei
Oct 21 2009, 07:57 PM
Hi Dave,

What are the expected range of weights for the Katana? Any chance that they will make it down into the 150's in any plastic?

Thanks,

Rizbee

The R-Pro are in the 150's. They're sort of squirelly if you can throw over 350, but if you throw in the 250-350, you are fine.

davei
Oct 21 2009, 07:58 PM
I got word that herodisc will be back on line tomorrow at noon.

rizbee
Oct 21 2009, 08:18 PM
The R-Pro are in the 150's. They're sort of squirelly if you can throw over 350, but if you throw in the 250-350, you are fine.

I'm more at the top end of that range, so it's definitely worth trying out. Had you considered the name "Flying Squirrel" or "Rocky"? ;)

gokayaksteven
Oct 21 2009, 08:47 PM
hey Dave- any timeline on champ gator-x's?
thanks

davei
Oct 22 2009, 08:27 AM
hey Dave- any timeline on champ gator-x's?
thanks

No, not on Champion. I believe we did run some Star Gator Xs for the regular line up.