Hi Dave! Been reading a lot about the new Atlas and am wondering if the purpose of the overmold soft rim is to stick in the chains, why not make a putter like the Aviar? Thanks.

Hey Joe,

The purpose of the soft overmold is to stick in your hand, so to speak. Not everyone has grip issues, but those of us who have dry skin and weak grips, (arthritis, carpal tunnel, etc), will appreciate the extra grip the softer Star provides. I have never been a believer in softer putters sticking in the chains, because while they stick more on the right side, they tend to roll off on the left. I suppose if you are a hyzer putter, a grippy disc would probably would better and cut down on cut throughs. The bouncing off the pole could still be a problem. I have putted with softer putters for a long time, so I have seen the benefits and costs. I need the softer grippier disc to get any acceleration on my putts. Most pros putt with stiff to very stiff putter that I have a hard time holding on to, like KC. They also tend to gravitate toward KC Pro Rocs, which I can't hold on to either.

So, I imagine the pros won't like the extra grip the rim provides, but we will see.

As for an overmold putter; we have one in the works. Should be the same sort of thing: a firm plate with a grippy rim. The firm plate should at least minimize the pole bounces.

Interesting. I like the feel of a gummy putter on the fingertips as it is easier to get some good spin with a fan grip that way when putting. I've wondered how the reverse type of putter would do: Gummy flight plate for the finger tips, but a slick rim to spin in the chains.

The exact distribution of the bubbles has no effect on the over all flight at all, although there seems to be a lot of people convinced that it does. We have done extensive testing around this.

Dave, I appreciate very much you responding on this forum. One note from you can cut through a lot of BS.

Put me in the anecdotal camp espousing at least some of the flightplate-bubble Blizzards glide longer and go farther. I have eight early 150 F2 Katanas with very big bubbles in the flight plate and few, if any, in the rim. Thrown with a brace of nine later 150 Katanas with rim bubbles and clear plates, without exception the F2s are 5-10% longer. That's thrown by a 62-year-old arm that averages about 325-350 with a 167 S-PD (though I did measure out at 519' with an F2 BlizKat at last year's Am Worlds distance competition).

But for me an equally important issue is the damage sustained by the bubbled rims. All of my later BlizKats' rims (any of the current Bliz discs, really) are shredded, most to a large degree. And with the rim bubbles, these don't sand or melt down with a lighter like a regular disc; pretty much retire 'em after a coupla road scrapes.

None of the early F2s show any such damage despite having been a bag staple since they first came out. In fact, these have seasoned just like a normal Champion disc.

I do appreciate the amount of loss to mis-molds, but I'll wager a special Innova Pro Shop run of BlizKats (or BlizBosses) with big plate bubbles and hard rims would sell out. For those who throw and covet them, those BlizKats approach mythical.

Thanks again.

Dave, I appreciate very much you responding on this forum. One note from you can cut through a lot of BS.

Put me in the anecdotal camp espousing at least some of the flightplate-bubble Blizzards glide longer and go farther. I have eight early 150 F2 Katanas with very big bubbles in the flight plate and few, if any, in the rim. Thrown with a brace of nine later 150 Katanas with rim bubbles and clear plates, without exception the F2s are 5-10% longer. That's thrown by a 62-year-old arm that averages about 325-350 with a 167 S-PD (though I did measure out at 519' with an F2 BlizKat at last year's Am Worlds distance competition).

But for me an equally important issue is the damage sustained by the bubbled rims. All of my later BlizKats' rims (any of the current Bliz discs, really) are shredded, most to a large degree. And with the rim bubbles, these don't sand or melt down with a lighter like a regular disc; pretty much retire 'em after a coupla road scrapes.

None of the early F2s show any such damage despite having been a bag staple since they first came out. In fact, these have seasoned just like a normal Champion disc.

I do appreciate the amount of loss to mis-molds, but I'll wager a special Innova Pro Shop run of BlizKats (or BlizBosses) with big plate bubbles and hard rims would sell out. For those who throw and covet them, those BlizKats approach mythical.

Thanks again.

I believe we have made and sold bubble flight plate discs in the Factory Store. We may very well do it again. Ask Eric, and he will probably ask me. We would not make any claims for anything other than they have bubbles in the flightplate.

It is not one or the other. Visable bubbles in the flight plate are just larger and fewer. The bubbles are in both sections, just manefested differently

I don't doubt your observations about the flight differences, but I would have to examine the discs to explain them. Most likely, they formed up differently due to the different molding parameters.

Thanks for your feedback.

DAVE,

Quick question. I can't figure out what cfr disc I have. Its from the 2005 uswdgc tournament in Peoria IL. I don't know what cfr discs were being offered that year. It kinda looks like a star fire L or a beast. Its pearly too. No indication or weight noted on back. I have posted about this in the what's the story on this disc thread over at dgcr, but nothin. I can post a pic if need be.

Thanks for your time,
Doug

DAVE,

Quick question. I can't figure out what cfr disc I have. Its from the 2005 uswdgc tournament in Peoria IL. I don't know what cfr discs were being offered that year. It kinda looks like a star fire L or a beast. Its pearly too. No indication or weight noted on back. I have posted about this in the what's the story on this disc thread over at dgcr, but nothin. I can post a pic if need be.

Thanks for your time,
Doug

Hi Doug,
Send a picture to askdave@innovadiscs.com. Suzette will get the email and was at the tourney and she might know. Let her know it was from the 2005 USWGC. Personally, I have no idea. I am not always in the loop for those things.

At the 2005 USWDGC we had Glo Sidewinder CFR disc that did not have a mold name or weights on them, if that helps.

Hi Doug,
Send a picture to askdave@innovadiscs.com. Suzette will get the email and was at the tourney and she might know. Let her know it was from the 2005 USWGC. Personally, I have no idea. I am not always in the loop for those things.

Thank you Dave! I will do that!

Are there different Destroyer molds for DX and Star?

Are there different Destroyer molds for DX and Star?

We usually use the same molds for both, but we could use a slight variation for the lighter DX.

Gracias por la quatro uno uno.

Dave, which plastics are used in the Atlas?

Dave, which plastics are used in the Atlas?

Right now Star for both sections, but we will do Champion for the center section. We will probably also do Blizzard or Starlite for the center section too, at some point. The overmold will be a softer gummier Star for all types.

Dave,

Any plans to run champion (even CFR) vipers? There must be a high demand since it is the best disc ever made!

thanks in advance

Dave,

Any plans to run champion (even CFR) vipers? There must be a high demand since it is the best disc ever made!

thanks in advance

We have run Champion Vipers and will do so again at some point. I believe we have some in the Pro Shop/Factory Store.

We have run Champion Vipers and will do so again at some point. I believe we have some in the Pro Shop/Factory Store.


All I see in the factory store is the Star ones. Don't seem to have near the stability as the champion..I will continue to wait impatiently! Ebay never has them nor any of the other sites..Anyone have a line on any please post!

All I see in the factory store is the Star ones. Don't seem to have near the stability as the champion..I will continue to wait impatiently! Ebay never has them nor any of the other sites..Anyone have a line on any please post!

check the facebook disc auction pages and the disc collector pages. or, just go with a first run champion whippet

Hi Dave,

I was wondering if you could clarify some things for me.

When you test disc to give them flight ratings, what are the conditions outside like? Do you try to do it on calm days?

When you define a disc as being more stable, do you mean straighter or more overstable?

Hi Dave,

I was wondering if you could clarify some things for me.

When you test disc to give them flight ratings, what are the conditions outside like? Do you try to do it on calm days?

When you define a disc as being more stable, do you mean straighter or more overstable?

We test them in a variety of wind conditions, upwind and down. We test them with medium speed and high speed throwers. We test them with outside in and inside out throwers. Inside out starts hyzer and flips up. Outside in is opposite.

Just as important as wind speed and direction is nose angle and nose angle sensitivity. A disc may fly very differently for a nose up thrower as opposed to a flatter thrower.

When we define a disc as more stable, we usually mean resists turning at high speeds. Real stability means a little more, but basically goes straight upwind and down. Overstable usually is reserved for how fast and far a disc fades as it slows.

Dave,
Can you give me a little history behind the addition of beads to certain molds? I can't help but notice that most of the more stable to over-stable discs have a bead on the underside of the wing. I also know that during the 80's and 90's durability of discs was a huge issue. Were these beads developed to add stability to discs, or were they developed as a durability enhancement? Also, where did the idea come from?

This may have been covered all ready but, Has the Eagle L mold gone OOP Dave? Lots of talk on face book. Thank You

Dave,
Can you give me a little history behind the addition of beads to certain molds? I can't help but notice that most of the more stable to over-stable discs have a bead on the underside of the wing. I also know that during the 80's and 90's durability of discs was a huge issue. Were these beads developed to add stability to discs, or were they developed as a durability enhancement? Also, where did the idea come from?

The bead was developed to add durability. A secondary effect on some discs was to add a little high speed stability in some models. It was an original idea starting with the Classic Roc. We noticed the sharp bottom of the XD and Aviar tended to fray quickly and feel sharp so we added the bead to make the bottom less sharp and less fray prone.

This may have been covered all ready but, Has the Eagle L mold gone OOP Dave? Lots of talk on face book. Thank You

The Eagle L is not in main distribution, but is/can be available in the Factory Store.

Hi Dave. Can you tell us about the newly approved disc, the NOVA please? 21.3 diameter and legal to 176, but the height is really high. Is it a putter and an overmold?

Hi Dave. Can you tell us about the newly approved disc, the NOVA please? 21.3 diameter and legal to 176, but the height is really high. Is it a putter and an overmold?

Hi Joe,

I don't know what they measure for height, but if they got the early ones, they were a little domier than what we are running now. I think there are some pictures out on line somewhere. Hero Discs might even have some for sale this weekend.

Basically, they are an overmold no bead Aviar putter. It feels like a big bead in the hand and flies like a big bead high speed, but doesn't have near the fade of a big bead. Probably less fade than a P&A.

The material is a tough grippy Pro like driver Pro, but grippier and softer on the rim. Overall the Nova has about the same flex as the Atlas. It is a very straight flyer like the Atlas too.

Hi Joe,

I don't know what they measure for height, but if they got the early ones, they were a little domier than what we are running now. I think there are some pictures out on line somewhere. Hero Discs might even have some for sale this weekend.

Basically, they are an overmold no bead Aviar putter. It feels like a big bead in the hand and flies like a big bead high speed, but doesn't have near the fade of a big bead. Probably less fade than a P&A.

The material is a tough grippy Pro like driver Pro, but grippier and softer on the rim. Overall the Nova has about the same flex as the Atlas. It is a very straight flyer like the Atlas too.

Sweet! I'll review it when I can try it out. Thanks.

I threw and putted mine yesterday. Yellow plate with purple rim, 171g. Definitely flew where I pointed it. Not really BB Aviar stability but straight. the plate is stiff and the rim is firm but really grippy. The profile looks almost like an Aviar P&A no bead. It putted good but dropped really fast in no wind. Once I got used to that, it went really straight and stuck well in the chains. For me, this may make a better putter than upshot disc. Throws nice and clean off the tee with a neutral flight.

I would love to see a combo of flexy Champion flight plate with R-Pro soft tacky rim for putting!!!

Hey Dave,

I asked the folks on facebook abou this one. It's a zephyr mold with thumbtrac and NO patent pending on the "Made in u.s.a." side. My question is this; I bought this from a guy in Toronto, Canada. Was the Zephyr ever called something different in the past? the stamp is what's throwing me off. it's not an event stamp as far as I can tell and it's not a club stamp as far as I can tell...
Just trying to figure out what I have, not discover the mona lisa of disc golf discs...

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa223/apdrvya/APDRVYA/IMAG1138_zpsb7vl0dof.jpg

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa223/apdrvya/APDRVYA/IMAG1139_zpsi3t1gtw2.jpg

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa223/apdrvya/APDRVYA/IMAG1140_zps92wqcwta.jpg

the Stamp says "Invader" and "by Innova" on the other side, in case its not readily viewable.

This was probably just a custom hot stamp. The Zephyr was always the Zephyr.

This was probably just a custom hot stamp. The Zephyr was always the Zephyr.

thank you good sir.
the stamp just threw me way off I guess :)

Dave, I have a friend who has this disc.
I am trying to help him with some history.
He did get it from Ed a long time ago.
He believes that Ed called it a " Wedge "
No tooling on bottom.
No stamp on top.
Plastic feels much slicker than normal DX.
Just the number 3 in permenant marker top and bottom.
Can you help us out ?
Thanks
D.P. 4121

Hey Big Easy,

I really can't tell from the picture, but it could be an old Aero, if it is 180 size diameter as the shape and sprue area, (center bottom) look like it. Otherwise it could be a Wally Wedge if is it a smaller diameter. 86 mold is a possibility too if it is smaller diameter. I am not familiar with the sprue are on either of those. A smaller diameter yet could be a Bullet or Lazer.

Dave, I like throwing 8 speed discs as my main drivers, Innova only have 2 in that speed and only made in dx. Any future plans on making more speed 8 discs?

Dave, I like throwing 8 speed discs as my main drivers, Innova only have 2 in that speed and only made in dx. Any future plans on making more speed 8 discs?

Yes, we are working on one now. If everything works out well, it should be ready in a month or so.

Yes, we are working on one now. If everything works out well, it should be ready in a month or so.

Yes, even older guys get excited over something so simple as a new disc, thanks a lot Dave, any chance of getting any star archangels

Hey Big Easy,

I really can't tell from the picture, but it could be an old Aero, if it is 180 size diameter as the shape and sprue area, (center bottom) look like it. Otherwise it could be a Wally Wedge if is it a smaller diameter. 86 mold is a possibility too if it is smaller diameter. I am not familiar with the sprue are on either of those. A smaller diameter yet could be a Bullet or Lazer.

Thanks Dave I don't have the disc in my possesion.
Looks taller than an eagle or aero.
I will try and get a diameter.
Appreciate your imput.
Thanks
D. P. :)

Yes, even older guys get excited over something so simple as a new disc, thanks a lot Dave, any chance of getting any star archangels


We've tried Star Archangels before. Unfortunately they flew way too stable to be call Archangels.

Hiya Dave, thanks for all the great plastic, all innova bag here.

Was wondering if its true that the Deadalus has changed/tooled mold from the proto version, and if so when can we expect the normal release?

I noticed our new order of Star Katana's are extremely domey. Was curious since I remember the first couple of years they where very flat, especially that first year. Is this now the norm for those or did you guys have issues in production?

Thanks again for all your hard work.

Hiya Dave, thanks for all the great plastic, all innova bag here.

Was wondering if its true that the Deadalus has changed/tooled mold from the proto version, and if so when can we expect the normal release?

I noticed our new order of Star Katana's are extremely domey. Was curious since I remember the first couple of years they where very flat, especially that first year. Is this now the norm for those or did you guys have issues in production?

Thanks again for all your hard work.

The Daedalus changed slightly from the proto. The nose was rounded slightly as we believed it was too sharp originally to feel comfortable in the hand. The proto run was a little more inconsistent than the main release, which should be today. The sharper the nose, and the wider the rim, the more inconsistent and nose sensitive a disc can be.

Star Katanas, as well as most distance drivers are subject to the plastic batches we have on hand at the time of molding. Even though it is "identical" plastic from the manufacturer, every batch can be slightly different from the previous batch and produce different molding results.

dave, would you have any idea what the ratio of flat champ firebirds being produced to the more common domey versions?

i ask because even the new 12x champ firebirds (flat) are commanding somtimes twice the retail amount for what normally new champ plastic goes for. is it very difficult to keep the new champ firebirds flat? if it is true that multiple stamps flatten the discs maybe it would work out to somehome double, or even triple stamp the firebirds to ensure a nice flat top.

thanks for listening!

dave, would you have any idea what the ratio of flat champ firebirds being produced to the more common domey versions?

i ask because even the new 12x champ firebirds (flat) are commanding somtimes twice the retail amount for what normally new champ plastic goes for. is it very difficult to keep the new champ firebirds flat? if it is true that multiple stamps flatten the discs maybe it would work out to somehome double, or even triple stamp the firebirds to ensure a nice flat top.

thanks for listening!

We can now make flat Firebirds in Champion, pretty much whenever we want. That being said, sometimes there is a difference in consumers minds between flat and super flat. The Pro Shop offers flat Champion Firebirds on an ongoing basis. No need to pay extra.

dave, is there a release date for the teebird3 in champion plastic. great disc!

dave, is there a release date for the teebird3 in champion plastic. great disc!

No plans yet for main release, but it will be in the Factory Store soon.

hello again Dave, I am going to ask again very politely. Please please please please please please please make the polecat and sonic in Gstar and champ. I have a champ polecat and I absolutely love it. I have several gstar discs and I love them as well. I think gstar and lid like disks are a match made in heaven.

oh and I promised to ask about running them in XT as well.

thank you again for everything you have done for us and the sport we all love. happy holidays!

p.s. is the piranha mold still intact?

hello again Dave, I am going to ask again very politely. Please please please please please please please make the polecat and sonic in Gstar and champ. I have a champ polecat and I absolutely love it. I have several gstar discs and I love them as well. I think gstar and lid like disks are a match made in heaven.

oh and I promised to ask about running them in XT as well.

thank you again for everything you have done for us and the sport we all love. happy holidays!

p.s. is the piranha mold still intact?

Piranha mold became the Birdie. We have made Champion Polecats and they were almost impossible to trim. We can try GStar Polecats at some point. Probably not going to do GStar Sonics, but we regularly make Sonics in Star and Champion. Most are sold by Hero Discs Usa.

GStar polecats would be fantastic! Thanks!

EDIT: those sonics aren't golf weight and they are larger diameter. are we're talking about the same ones?

Second question: have you designed or produced a 21.7-22cm diameter disc with a polecat like rim? I have a zephyr but I'm interested in a roc sized disc.

Again thanks for your time and everything you do for us!

We have run GStar Polecats. Ask for them at the factory store.

Hi, I have a few pro destroyers that weigh 177-179g, and several Bosses at 177g on a postal scale is there a weight limit that shouldn't be sold? And if a buyer gets one of these what should we do. ThanksIf it is an accurate scale, and you know for sure they are over weight and unsold/unused you can return them for exchange. The weight limit with tolerance for a Destroyer is 176.85. Anything above that would not be legal for PDGA play. The weight limit with tolerance for the Boss would be 177.76. Anything over that would not be legal for PDGA play. Premium plastic is hygroscopic, which means they can absorb moisture and gain weight. This can be a gram or two. The safest way to ensure compliance is to buy discs marked 173 or 174. Storing discs in a low humidity environment may help too.

If you choose to sell these discs, which I don't advise, you should warn the buyers that these discs aren't legal for PDGA play. I realize that the vast majority of disc golf is not PDGA, but we would prefer to exchange the discs rather than have them out there potentially illegal.
Where is this 1% tolerance specified?

This may have already been asked previously, but I'm new to using this forum.
I love shopping from F2, but it's DISCappointing when the driver I would like to purchase is not in the weight range I prefer (167g). Why are most discs sold in max weight? Thank you!

sorry, I haven't followed this site for a while, but I am here now.

Most male players opt for the heaviest weight drivers because either they see the top pros throwing them or they think they will give them the best results.

It is true that the heavier the driver, the less variablility you will get in your drive. Heavier drivers damp out off axis torque better and are less affected by wind.

Heavier drivers penetrate through wind, (and through grass in the case of rollers).

Heavier drivers have less glide. Heavier drivers are harder to get up to speed.

Not all top pros throw the heaviest weights all the time. Paul Mcbeth and Philo both throw high sixites drivers regularly.

Bottom line: If you can throw your maximum distance with a heavy driver, you should probably use a heavy driver. If you can't, you should think about lighter weights.

Good form and lighter weights are an awesome combination.

But, to answer your question simply: heavier drivers are more popular.

Hi Dave!

Firstly I just want to say I hope this thread gets going again if you're back - I've been going through it methodically and it's been a treasure trove of information for a relatively new player/disc golf addict like me. Be it runs of disc, the stories behind discs, or any other if the hundreds of details (I'm collecting and am barely into my second year playing), this forum is amazing. Please keep coming back.

But you're a busy man I'm sure so I'll get on to my questions (more to come I'm sure).

1. Has anyone made a record of Innova Champion's catalogue?

Specifically a book I suppose but a digital book or database would be just as cool. In my mind it would include every disc you've made and any stories that go with them (special runs, stamps, how or why they were named the name they got given, players who used them, even notable single shots or aces etc etc). Wouldn't that be unbelievably cool? A coffee table size book too.. I would certainly order a copy or two and so would collectors I'm sure. And the first ones would have the protostar dust jacket. :)

2. Would it be possible to layer two types of plastic, e.g. firm plastic like KC pro with XT?

As a player with veery dry skin I have to resort to wetting my fingers to get enough purchase when putting and while this works I'd rather not have to, if you know what I mean (correct me if I'm wrong but i believe you suffer from the same issue).

3. What mold is the XT Roc pulled from and is their board flat top just a idiosyncrasy of the XT cooling process or is that intentional, i.e. Roc3? I kind of feel they're one of the best kept secrets in the current factory store line up. I hope you'll keep making them! Even firmer if possible (see #2)!

4. (Thought of one more) The beadless Gator mold, why was that passed on to Millenium? Didn't it sell?

I found one on the shelf at my local dealer last year and instantly recognised it as I'd heard about them but never seen one. It very quickly became my go to FH upshot disc and now I'm trawling the net for back ups (I have one) as I don't find the Millenium/Hyzerbomb Mortar feels as good. I know, I might probably just being silly but the older Star plastic is much better. :)

Thanks for your time in advance,

Nicolai

Hi Dave!

When are you scheduling a new run of driver pro? Lots of purple this time round, if you could. :)

Thanks,

Nicolai