so does Mitch McClellan. "OLD BLUE!!!" :D

I do, too! (Okay, I'm nobody, but I do!)

Just want to put in my vote for the Star FBs (X) to be run very soon. :)

no love for the monster :(

no love for the monster :(



Not everyone is down on the Monster. In fact, you might find one of mine in a tree on hole 9 at Z Boaz.

If its pearly white I'm throwing it now ;)

Hi Dave. I was wondering about the ratios for X outs in the Star plastic. Is it better or the same as Champion and Pro? Also, when will Star X outs be available and will all X outs now have the Innova factory Second stamp or will the X stamps continue?

Hi Chase. The ratio is about the same. Maybe a little lower for Star. Pro has the least rejects of the three. X outs should be available now. I don't know what stamp they will have.

Star FireBird (X) would be awesome. Would be a great disc.

Star Whippet-X....would be just like the sweet 10x Whippet's I bet...

Yea !!!!!! Star Whippets !!!!!! Gummy Overstable !!!!! 168-172 :grams please !!!!! :D

The whippet is my go to disc...I'm sure Star Whippets would find a nice home in my bag!!

what's in Harold's bag?

Hey Dave, Hope you and yours had a great Holiday!

Did you ever try or consider a small bead on the Coyote?

Deano...

I agree!! we want f(x) firebirds!! :D

Hi Dave. I was wondering about the ratios for X outs in the Star plastic. Is it better or the same as Champion and Pro? Also, when will Star X outs be available and will all X outs now have the Innova factory Second stamp or will the X stamps continue?



discgolfvalues has sidewinders and t-birds!!!

Star Whippet-X....would be just like the sweet 10x Whippet's I bet...




Why not try to resurrect the RAM in star form? If it's overstable you're looking for, nothing flies like a RAM!

Hi dave,
Sorry for the doublepost, but I just had an idea....

By retooling the beast, was it a step to make a longer gliding disc or to emmulate Barry's monsterous shots and the helix's he is able to do?

I was watching videos last night and Barry was crushing some 500+ footers with the older mold of beast. I had recently picked up a retooled beast and noticed how easily I could replicate this type of shot to whereas the older model I would have to push to get the same results.
Thanks, Dave!

Hey Champ. Yes, we tried that. It was a little more stable than we wanted.

troof, yes it was to make it a longer gliding Beast that wasn't so similar to the Orc. I don't think Barry liked the change however.

troof, yes it was to make it a longer gliding Beast that wasn't so similar to the Orc. I don't think Barry liked the change however.



It seemed very simular to me once I saw some of those bombers he hucked.
I like the fact that an average guy like me can make Barry-esque" shots! I'm sweet...I throw like Barry!

So are you going to keep the beast a signature disc for barry, or is he throwing something else?

troof, nothing is changed with Barry as far as I know.

Hi Chase. The ratio is about the same. Maybe a little lower for Star. Pro has the least rejects of the three. X outs should be available now. I don't know what stamp they will have.





Thanks Dave. Ill keep an eye out or check with Mark.

Hey Champ. Yes, we tried that. It was a little more stable than we wanted.




Wouldnt this just be a Roc in terms of flight?

Hey Champ. Yes, we tried that. It was a little more stable than we wanted.




Wouldnt this just be a Roc in terms of flight?




If so I would put in in production because I hate the feel of Rocs so I throw another companies mids .

Hey Champ. Yes, we tried that. It was a little more stable than we wanted.




Wouldnt this just be a Roc in terms of flight?




If so I would put in in production because I hate the feel of Rocs so I throw another companies mids .




Isnt that also by obligation?

Yeah :D

Thanks Dave,and more stable is not bad some times. I am thinking in line with a cleaner release for myself. The bottom lip is just a little rough with my fan/open grip. That is one of the benifits of a bead,less scouring of the hand. One of the many reasons I love the Roc!

Many years ago I went from the XD to the Hammer for that reason also.

Deano...

Another questions for icculus (dave)
I just saw a star wraith on ebay that was pink!
what are the colors available in star plastic.
I've seen wht, blu, red, yel,...now i see orng, pink, blk....what can we expect?
Thanks!!!!!!

Hey Dave,

We had a discussion @ the USDGC concerning the Pro Wraith ejection process. Do the STAR discs have to be released manually also?

Deano...

Scooter, you should try a Pro Shark, it's really grippy and it doesn't beat up like the other Pro discs. I threw a buzzz until I found this, it will never leave my bag (except maybe for a Star when it comes along, we'll see)

Innova no longer makes Pro plastic so i will stay with my Blazes and Element-X's

umm, yes they do...

Dave??

Well they shouldn't it it crap. :D

Well they shouldn't it it crap. :D



wow, nuthin like bashin plastic on the manufaturer's site :D:D:D

Well a lot of people feel that way and the durability was definantly lacking. I'm not bashing I'm just saying that that was the worst blend they have made in a long time IMO.

Hey Scooter...............have you test thrown any Star plastic yet ?

Yeah the Wraith, Teebird, and Orc

I got a really sweet green Star Teebird for christmas. Looks like it was made between a change from blue to yellow or visa versa. It looks sweet.

I'm not bashing I'm just saying that that was the worst blend they have made in a long time IMO.



I've got an old dinner plate that turns over like a beat element x if you'd be interested in a trade :D;)

Element-X e broken in roc with a better feel IMO. I have been leaning more towards the blaze lately but who knows.

Hall know's his gateway! That's a 10-4! I should. I have recieved 2 gateway ace's in a 3 day period last month! Thank you �! :cool:

OK ............wonder if it could be possible to have Glow Star plastic !!!!! :D

Another questions for icculus (dave)
I just saw a star wraith on ebay that was pink!
what are the colors available in star plastic.
I've seen wht, blu, red, yel,...now i see orng, pink, blk....what can we expect?
Thanks!!!!!!



I've got a hot pink sidewinder that is almost the color of a highlighter, and its one of the greatest colors in the snow I've ever used. Would it be possible to create more colors in these super bright "highlighter" tones?

troof, Star plastic has basic colors and mixed colors. The basics are blue, red, yellow, white, black. Mixed colors are orange, pink, etc.

Dean, yes, unfortunately Star does have to be ejected manually. This is the main reason for inconsistency. The time changes slightly and the manual handling can potentially change things too.

Furrthur, we can make pink and orange at this point that are highlighter type colors.

troof, Star plastic has basic colors and mixed colors. The basics are blue, red, yellow, white, black. Mixed colors are orange, pink, etc.



the guy I was corresponding with said that all the mixed colors are lighter weights...is there any troof to this?
My agenda is to get max weight pink drivers, to baffle the competition. They think it's all pretty until I unleash da bomb on them...sonic boom!

Dean, yes, unfortunately Star does have to be ejected manually. This is the main reason for inconsistency. The time changes slightly and the manual handling can potentially change things too.



Dave,

Any chance of this changing in the future to acquire more consistancy? Or will this (manual ejection and handling of the Star) be the norm from now on?

Tom

I have a max weight pink Star Sidewinder. Got it from discgolfvaules.com I think he has a pink Star Wraith on eBay right now.

I think he has a pink Star Wraith on eBay right now.



He does, but Mark told me that all the ones he's seen have been in the 160's. That would fly like a long optimizer for me. :D

I've thrown a Pink 169ish Star Wraith. Surprisingly stable. I didn't check the weight until after I was done throwing it. It held a line at maximum power into a head/cross wind. probably 7-8 mph coming at me left to right, and I'm a left hander. When I did flip it, it headed for the ground before hitting a pocket and lifting 15 feet, and going really far into the woods. The guys now insist that I Don't throw them into the woods, it's no fun.

I had a pink heavy, so they have been run.

I have been working on the ejection problem. I thought I had it licked twice, but I am still working on it.

I had a pink heavy, so they have been run.



So youre sayin there's a chance...it would look nice with my pinky orc, pinky super roc, pinky ch gator...etc...
I'll keep looking. Any advice of who might carry such a delicious lid?

Thanks Dave!!!!! :cool:

Dave, would the manual ejection problem create a "gnarly" effect on the top of some of the discs? I'm looking at two STAR Stingrays in particular, that right in the center on top are all "gnarly". I would have thought they might have been marked as X-Outs but apparently got thru. On some of the other STARays the top looks to have been smoothed out. Any thoughts? Thanks

Hi Dave,
When can we expect the DX Wraith?

Thanks

Jeremiah

150 DX Wraith! I can already see myself going over 400 at VA States this April.

troof, anyone might have them. Mark at discgolfvalues could get them if they existed.

Yup, I'm with you Ray! On the 150g DX Wraith. Not the Va States or the over 400' with anything not propelled with smokeless powder. :D

discndat, those should have been xed out. Yes, that sounds like operator error both in getting the disc out and marking it properly. It got by the hotstampers and shippers too, which is another concern.

We are making DX Wraiths right now. My only concern with these is how long they last in use. They feel great and fly great.

Thanks Dave for producing the Star Wraith. Fast and durable !!!

We are making DX Wraiths right now.




As Cosmo Kramer would say... GIDDIE UP!

Hey Dave, any idea when the new tour bag will be on the market? I found it on www.discsunlimited.net (http://www.discsunlimited.net) and it says sometime after the first of the year. It doesn't say how many discs it holds or give a retail price. It only lists black and blue as the available colors, but the picture is a red one. I like the red one. :)

Kent, I don't think we will have them until Spring. I don't know what the colors will be, but the usual colors are black, blue, red, green. Probably two or three of those.

I"m not sure what the other guy meant by "gnarly" on the top.. All of the SB ROCS I Got from '05(the first run, not the spectator from the '05 USDGC) All were Messed up in the top middle... what exactly was he talking about?

-Scott Lewis

P.s. Dave - When/if you make the Star Gremlins.. Can you run them with the DX stamp or at least the Gremlin and the Circular lines.. that would look money.. I just bought a Clear X-out Gremlin that has a DX stamp on it and it's so sweet looking.

I've noticed this marking on the star plastic for some of the later SB runs. The Tulsa second run orcs don't have these marks....maybe due to the larger stamp? Its a shame that these are acceptable end products. If this is from the ejecting of the mold..I think innova needs to revisit their QA procedure.

Its a shame that these are acceptable end products. If this is from the ejecting of the mold..I think innova needs to revisit their QA procedure.



Sounds to me like they already are. Were you raised by wolves or something? /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Dave,
Just got my first "official star" discs yesterday.
I've had the sb roc since the tourney and liked it through the temperature change (although this winter has been really mild)
Got my new star wraith and a couple of star stingrays!
I'm tormented now, because I wnat to throw now!!!!!
Only 6 more hours until I punch out...unfortunately, only 5 more hours until darkness....
That's what they make lunch breaks for though, right?

Thanks for the stroke savers, Dave! Keep'em coming!!!

Dave

I noticed that the Star Beast is now out. Is this the new mold or the old? I'm assuming new, but wanted to ask. Also, is it more or less stable than the Champion version (or the same :))

"Gnarly" and "messed up" are the same - these discs were not smooth on the top - you could see and feel very clearly the spot where I guess they come out of the mold; it was kind of like spackling put on a wall and not smoothed out completely. I hope that explains it better. But as Dave said, that should have been caught at the factory. But I know we are all human and you can't catch everything. I can send them back to the East Coast, no problem.

So did I read correctly that you guy's are discontinuing the pro wraith's?

RT I think everything is headed into the SB plastic. probably cheaper to make when you can mix plastics :confused:

R_T_we are not discontinuing the Pro Wraith. So far, the only Pro discs that have been discontinued are the Pro Birdie and Pro Orc. We will discontinue any models that don't sell this year. That may happen because of the Star plastic. If any Pro model continues to sell, we will continue to produce it.

discndat: oh. i gotcha. all of the SB rocs that i recieved from last years fund raiser were all like that although it never effected the flight pattern. Even the Proline Gremlin and a few other discs i have have that on them...

-Scott Lewis

Lyle, sorry I missed your post earlier. The Star Beasts are the new type and are about the same as the new Champion type.

discndat, those should have been xed out. Yes, that sounds like operator error both in getting the disc out and marking it properly. It got by the hotstampers and shippers too, which is another concern.





Ill take that job. It wont happen again.

Dave, what is different about the old raven's vs. the viper's (95'ish) I have a couple of each and I've made measurements all over and can't find anything they don't share, they even fly the same...

Just curious

discndat, those should have been xed out. Yes, that sounds like operator error both in getting the disc out and marking it properly. It got by the hotstampers and shippers too, which is another concern.



Ill take that job. It wont happen again.



i was thinking along the lines of making me the quality guy. problem is i would want to inspect each disc with a magnifying glass and test grip each one :D

that might slow down production to one disc per minute (not per machine either -- per the whole building) :eek: /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

plus i would want to double weigh every disc. that wouldn't work either. i wonder if they come down a conveyer belt onto a scale and then someone picks up the disc and writes the weight :confused:
also chase -- wouldn't it be hard to let any of the discs part from your company? :D

10up, the Raven and Viper were similar discs like the Whippet and Cheetah or Gazelle. Depending on which vintage you got of each one, they could look similar, but the lower part of each was different. The engraving might be different to reflect that. The lower out edge was different too. If those parts are not just a little different, then you have the same disc that has been mismarked.

Sounds to me like they already are. Were you raised by wolves or something?



Just my opinion....sorry you felt the need to flame me. Hopefully you feel better. If not, please try again.

I was raised in Pennsyltucky...and yes, we would have eaten you alive.

Had you read up thread, oh maybe a page, you would have seen where Dave discussed the exact "QA" issues you zinged him on. Dave's a big boy and can take care of himself, but I found your comment rude, particularly when addressed to someone volunteering freely of their time on this very public forum. Consequently he probably didn't need me stepping in to defend any more than he needed you to advise. My apologies if I was too thin skinned. There. Now I feel better. :)

Pennsyltucky huh? South Georgia here. You wouldn't have been satisfied with the meal. Mostly gristle. ;)

Quick Questions

Why does the stamp on the Pro orc have "Pro line" but the other Pro discs just have the word "pro" on the stamp. Is it because there have been Pro Line(pre champion plastic) versions of these discs?

plankeye, it was a goof by a former graphic artist that got by the rest of us. Nothing intentional. I believe that mistake was made more than once.

Pro Line Cobra.

I think that was it.

Dave, when you have a shot that you could go with the JK Aviar-x or the Coyote to reach, what are the deciding factors about which one you use? Would you rather throw a Coyote at 85% or a JK Aviar at 100% ?

Rob, the deciding factor would be whatever I felt comfortable with at the time. Usually the wind or potential obstacles would play in the decision. I had this very scenario this weekend at the NorCal SoCal challenge. There was a headwind on a less than 300 ft hole. One round I chose a Coyote, the other an Aviar. Same result. Unfortunately it was an excessively turned shot both times, but it does tend to show the interchangeability of the discs for me.

A few comments and questions for you, Dave...

1. When will the Star Wraith's be sent out around the states to individual disc dealers? I can't wait to get my hands on one.

2. You mentioned your concern over the DX Wraith... my Pro Wraith has lasted through more trees, more signs, more everything than any Pro disc I have thrown. The rim seems denser, more compact... I can't imagine the DX Wraith being too easy to beat the hell out of.

3. Side note: My StarWinder is as smooth as a baby's skin, no issues with "spackle" so it may have just been one isolated group that was missed.

4. How are the Star Aeros throwing in comparison with the Champion Aeros? I'm a huge fan of the Aero for any time where I *must* have turnover no matter what (short range).

5. Innova is a really conservative company in terms of disc design... I've now seen three other companies go very unusual routes with their discs... You have small players like Aerobie and DiscWing doing unusual but interesting things with drivers. Now I've seen Discraft products from ace race that are just... odd... with incredible dips just inside the rim... Is Innova working on anything really far-out or different in terms of molds? Something completely different that could add new levels of speed or glide to the discs? Or would you have to kill us if you told us? ;)

Anyway... thats all I've got! Have a nice day, sun's up time for some beautifully bitter cold disc!

I have found my Pro Wraiths are a little better than most of the Pro discs I've had in the past as well. However, they do break in after hitting a number of trees.

I just received a couple of Star Wraiths from discgolfvalues.com and I can't wait to throw them! (Unfortunately I have a split in the skin of a finger on my throwing hand, so I have to wait a few days)

I like how the Champion Wraith keeps it's flight characteristics and flies just like the Pro Wraiths when they are new. Great for long, annie shots that settle nicely. Hopefully the Star Wraith will work out similarly.

================
On a different note, Dave. How was the Norcal-Socal Challenge? I didn't qualify this year, but I haven't heard any details at all. How did it go?

A few comments and questions for you, Dave...

1. When will the Star Wraith's be sent out around the states to individual disc dealers? I can't wait to get my hands on one.

They should be out now.

2. You mentioned your concern over the DX Wraith... my Pro Wraith has lasted through more trees, more signs, more everything than any Pro disc I have thrown. The rim seems denser, more compact... I can't imagine the DX Wraith being too easy to beat the hell out of.

3. Side note: My StarWinder is as smooth as a baby's skin, no issues with "spackle" so it may have just been one isolated group that was missed.

4. How are the Star Aeros throwing in comparison with the Champion Aeros? I'm a huge fan of the Aero for any time where I *must* have turnover no matter what (short range).

The Star Aeros are very straight. Point and shoot. Turnovers stay over.

5. Innova is a really conservative company in terms of disc design... I've now seen three other companies go very unusual routes with their discs... You have small players like Aerobie and DiscWing doing unusual but interesting things with drivers. Now I've seen Discraft products from ace race that are just... odd... with incredible dips just inside the rim... Is Innova working on anything really far-out or different in terms of molds? Something completely different that could add new levels of speed or glide to the discs? Or would you have to kill us if you told us?

Have to kill you.

Anyway... thats all I've got! Have a nice day, sun's up time for some beautifully bitter cold disc!

<font color="red"> </font>

NorCal SoCal was great. The weather was perfect for a change. The course played great. The tri tip was yummy. There was a little wind to add to the challenge. I am not sure who won yet. There were two cards still out when I left. We were ahead by two points, but that is nothing with two cards left.

Dave,

I just noticed on the Innova site where the Spider and Shark are lumped together on flight chart (http://www.innovadiscs.com/discs/index.html) indicating similarity. However when the numbers were expanded last year the Spider went to -1/+1 compared to the Sharks 0/2. Should the Spider be one column over to the right with the Coyote, or is this your way of saying a Spider is more Shark like than Coyoteish?

Hawk, I think the vertical is pragmatic in order to fit five discs across. The horizontal axis is from more overstable on the left to understable on the right. The discs don't always line up vertically. I would say the Spider is more Coyote-ish than Shark-like. The Coyote has more carry than the Spider.

I found a KC Pro Roc in my back room this weekend and it was missing the # of world titles around the edge. Do you know why this happened since it doen't look like a misstamp.

Also how much are the 1st run Starfires from the 03 usdgc going for and how do they fly?

You should give 1st run Starfires to me.

Do you hear the little noise when you lightly drag your finger across the disc?

Hey Dave , did the original Monster have a picture of Frankeinsteins monster , for the hotstamp ?

Yeah snnnaaapppppp!!!!!

we have some of the zippers, Rhett. Waiting to be Zone Driven stamped. Not many, but a few.

Only the DX have pictures. No DX Monsters yet.

OK ................since we need more Cat names for disc's ...............how about the Saber tooth Tiger !!!!! Big Cat !!! Large Teeth !!!!!! :D

Or ...............T-Rex !!!!

I like T-Rex, it sounds like a longer TeeBird. Maybe TeeRex. ;)

and later, maybe, the TeeRodactyl :D

I like the idea of retvivng old disc names. Pheonix eg

ce

pTeeranodon

I found a KC Pro Roc in my back room this weekend and it was missing the # of world titles around the edge. Do you know why this happened since it doen't look like a misstamp.




It was run in the middle of the 11x's. Nothing special. A little softer plastic, I've found.

I like T-Rex, it sounds like a longer TeeBird. Maybe TeeRex. ;)



Cool !!!! With Big teeth !!!!!! Grrrrrrrrrr !!!!!

pTeeranodon



:eek: Also with big teeth ?

to Dave or anyone else who might know,
Of the 2002 CE Roc's how many orange were stamped with the 'one division one champion' stamp on front and the innova bar stamp and small ink roc stamp on the bottom? Thanks!

How about "TeeVee"?. I can throw a TeeVee 400 feet!

Dave Is Innova discontinuing the Pro plastic and replacing it with star? I am confused I thought this was going to give Innova 4 main lines of discs.

Quote from Dave...
"we are not discontinuing the Pro Wraith. So far, the only Pro discs that have been discontinued are the Pro Birdie and Pro Orc. We will discontinue any models that don't sell this year. That may happen because of the Star plastic. If any Pro model continues to sell, we will continue to produce it. "

Sorry Dave that you must answer the same question so many times.

I waded back through this thread and didnt see it sorry.

what about the Star orc? Will the plastic be the same as the Tulsa sb/nightshift orcs? and the mold I assume will be the same? and if this has already been answered I am truly sorry.

superq, no problem about asking the same question. It's a big thread. If you didn't see it, chances are others didn't see it either. The Star Orc will be the same as the Tulsa Orcs.

Then I am anxiously awaiting its release, I threw one of the Tulsa Orcs, and if there hadnt been a very serendipidous tree I would have owed big time for a shot 10 feet off the ground that flew well over 400 and was looking to go 470 all the way into the lake.

They are really impressive, keep up the good work.

superQ: the SB fundraiser Orcs were not Nightshift... They are much closer to the current Star Plastic than the are to Nightshift orcs.

-Scott Lewis

Ok so we have nightshift we have special blend and we have star... can anyone provide a clear distinction between the three and give some general observation and comparison, I threw the Tulsa ORC and for not being a big fan of Innova drivers I was very impressed, So what is the story on 3 different new plastics? and are they all the same mold?

Lie #1 "the 'L' in TL stands for Leopard bottom"

Lie #2: "Innova is discontinuing its Pro line and replacing it with STAR."


A lie can travel halfway around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes. -- Mark Twain



the Nightshift Orcs were an experiment by the Innova nightshift that led to the SB fundraiser Orcs which will become STAR Orcs once the fund raising for AM Worlds is completed. They are all essentially the same new Super Tacky Abrasion Resistant plastic which many of us really love (althouth some variations within runs and between runs are inevitable) :D

pTeeranodon



I'm sorry, did you say "pTee <font color="red">RAM</font> odon?" Sounds long and overstable to me! :D:D;)

SuperQ: all of those types of plastics were basically just different names for the same thing(BASICALLY)... ALthough Nightshift feels way different than the others it was never considered to be a TYPE of plastic either. it was merely an experiment that worked out very well.

Special blend is what STAR plastic was called when it was first released with the SPecial BLend ROC and SB orc Fundraisers..
NOw that they are actually making this plastic a regular production item they simply gave it the name of STAR.. STar and SB are the same thing although Nightshift isn't quite the same and was never really a plastic that was meant for production.

-Scott Lewis

When will we see the Star Starfire?

Around March I think

I think plankeye's estimate is close. Around March.

what about an aviar or a rhyno in the same plastic as the old birdie mold gumputt? Bring that old chain grabbing plastic back. :)

Dave,

Sorry if this has been answered, but do you think the Birdie mold will ever be run in Star plastic?

Thanks,
mc

what about an aviar or a rhyno in the same plastic as the old birdie mold gumputt? Bring that old chain grabbing plastic back. :)



Close approximations of those discs are currently available as an Omega SS and Pro Rhyno.

Dave,

Sorry if this has been answered, but do you think the Birdie mold will ever be run in Star plastic?

Thanks,
mc



We have no plans to run Star Birdies at this time, but might in the future. We first need to see how the Star Aviars are going to be accepted as putters.

Oo... Got another question that may have been answered before but who knows... Why is it that none of the accepted drivers were ever released in the floating plastic of the Dragon/Hydra? Just a problem with their flight due to the way it cooled, or what?

Dave i have a question about JK Valkyries. Do you remember what year they came out and were there ever 3x JK Valk.s? i have heard some rumors that some 4x JK Valk.s were CE plastic... any truth to that rumor?

i could swear i used to have a 3x stamp JK Valk (that i lost in a lake)... :confused:
also, if someone has a World's Biggest stamped Ch. Valk from 2002 would that probably be CE?

I have one 4x Valk that is a milky white instead of the opaque white. It looks and feels like some of the CE Valk's that I have had in the past and flies very similar too. Who know's?! :confused:

i've got a few JK valks that look, feal, and fly like old genuine CE valks i've had/have. other than the stamps i would say they are the same blend of plastic.

Isn't there a degree of CE plastic in all the candy/champion discs that came out post CE? Wasn't it just that the rigidity was tweaked to make them safer?

I still swear I had a 3x JK Valk. Can anyone confirm that or am i just getting old and forgetful? :eek:

Hi Dave. I got 2 questions for you, both about the Bulldog.

1. Is this really being discontinued?
2. Can this disc be made in other plastic than it is now?

Thanks as always.

Oo... Got another question that may have been answered before but who knows... Why is it that none of the accepted drivers were ever released in the floating plastic of the Dragon/Hydra? Just a problem with their flight due to the way it cooled, or what?



Yes, basically. The mold would have to have the right amount of mass, and it would have to mold up properly. Most of our drivers would not have enough mass. Even the Wraith would only float at 127 gms. It wouldn't fly very well at all.

Rob, The Champion Valk came out in 2001, before the Minnesota Worlds. There is a possibility that there were 3X before this event. She won, so it would be 4X after that. If there were 3X, they would be CE type, I suppose. Sorry, I can't be more specific.

Hi Dave. I got 2 questions for you, both about the Bulldog.

1. Is this really being discontinued?
2. Can this disc be made in other plastic than it is now?

Thanks as always.



The Bulldog name is being discontinued. The Hydra and the Bulldog have been combined. The Hydra was a little finnicky so we tweaked it. The result was so similar to the Bulldog, that it didn't make sense to carry both. We can't make it in any other plastic, if you mean Pro, Champion, or Star, as it would weigh over 200 gms.

When will we see the Star Starfire?



Please tell me you'd do something about the name of a star starfire...stttttt-tttttar star starfire ;)
It just doesn't roll off the tongue like star sidewinder or star ram does. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Hi Dave. I got 2 questions for you, both about the Bulldog.

1. Is this really being discontinued?
2. Can this disc be made in other plastic than it is now?

Thanks as always.



The Bulldog name is being discontinued. The Hydra and the Bulldog have been combined. The Hydra was a little finnicky so we tweaked it. The result was so similar to the Bulldog, that it didn't make sense to carry both. We can't make it in any other plastic, if you mean Pro, Champion, or Star, as it would weigh over 200 gms.




Does that also include DX? Also, how bout them DX Wraiths and how long before stamping and distribution?

The Bulldog name is being discontinued.


Somewhere(s) around here it says that Barry Schultz uses(/used?) the Bulldog as his primary putter...and ya gotta admit, that a "BS Bulldog" certainly has a nice ring to it! :o :cool:

Hi Dave. I got 2 questions for you, both about the Bulldog.

1. Is this really being discontinued?
2. Can this disc be made in other plastic than it is now?

Thanks as always.



The Bulldog name is being discontinued. The Hydra and the Bulldog have been combined. The Hydra was a little finnicky so we tweaked it. The result was so similar to the Bulldog, that it didn't make sense to carry both. We can't make it in any other plastic, if you mean Pro, Champion, or Star, as it would weigh over 200 gms.




Does that also include DX? Also, how bout them DX Wraiths and how long before stamping and distribution?



The Bulldog/Hydra and Dragon are a form of DX. Just unweighted.

The Wraiths are coming along fine now after two bad starts. They will probably be ready for distribution in a month. Unfortunately, it is supposed to rain this weekend so I won't get a chance to course test them, or the new Star Aviars. Both the DX Wraith and Star Aviars test nice here on the property, but that is not the same as on a course.

Hey dave,
I had left a question a few pages back and I wasn't sure if it had gotten answered

"P.s. Dave - When/if you make the Star Gremlins.. Can you run them with the DX stamp or at least the Gremlin and the Circular lines.. that would look money.. I just bought a Clear X-out Gremlin that has a DX stamp on it and it's so sweet looking. "

A little silly question, but that would be preatty cool like the Champ Rhynos that were dyed and had the DX stamp on them.

-Scott Lewis

Hey dave,
I had left a question a few pages back and I wasn't sure if it had gotten answered

"P.s. Dave - When/if you make the Star Gremlins.. Can you run them with the DX stamp or at least the Gremlin and the Circular lines.. that would look money.. I just bought a Clear X-out Gremlin that has a DX stamp on it and it's so sweet looking. "

A little silly question, but that would be preatty cool like the Champ Rhynos that were dyed and had the DX stamp on them.

-Scott Lewis



Most likely they will have a Star Gremlin stamp or a custom tournament hot stamp. They will be placed in CFR for tournaments.

Hmmm...Star Starfire....StarFire bird.... FX! FX! FX! :D

Thanks Dave.

Star Aviars ............

dave what is the plan for the 06' USDGC rocs? i know there are already the special blend/star, but will there be any champion plastic rocs made this year? thanks

dave what is the plan for the 06' USDGC rocs? i know there are already the special blend/star, but will there be any champion plastic rocs made this year? thanks



Yes, Champion will be the main offering, I believe.

Dave,

Kudos on the Star plastic!!! I really put it to the test this weekend at a couple of tight, technical courses with alot....alot of trees and my star wraith and stingray took some really hard hits with no damage. Nice work.

What can we expect along the lines of a midrange turnover star line disc? should I get a lighter stingray and be happy or do you have other plans? Thanks!

Dave-Which mold(s) did you run the star aviar in? From your limited test throws, how does the stability and domeyness compare to other plastic (dx for small bead, kc for big bead)?

Thanks alot! I also just picked up a coyote and am playing with it. I was surprised! Nice disc!

Dave, How do those star aeros perform?

can you flip them over? or are they pretty stable?

thanks!

Dave,

Kudos on the Star plastic!!! I really put it to the test this weekend at a couple of tight, technical courses with alot....alot of trees and my star wraith and stingray took some really hard hits with no damage. Nice work.

What can we expect along the lines of a midrange turnover star line disc? should I get a lighter stingray and be happy or do you have other plans? Thanks!



Do you not turn over your Star Stingray? I have problems not turning it over. Mine's a 180g.

Used it quite a bit at Grandview yesterday. Just about aced 18 with it.

Dave,

Kudos on the Star plastic!!! I really put it to the test this weekend at a couple of tight, technical courses with alot....alot of trees and my star wraith and stingray took some really hard hits with no damage. Nice work.

What can we expect along the lines of a midrange turnover star line disc? should I get a lighter stingray and be happy or do you have other plans? Thanks!



The Stingray will be it for a while. The Coyote will be out in a month or so, but it really isn't a turnover disc, unless you start it that way.

Dave-Which mold(s) did you run the star aviar in? From your limited test throws, how does the stability and domeyness compare to other plastic (dx for small bead, kc for big bead)?

Thanks alot! I also just picked up a coyote and am playing with it. I was surprised! Nice disc!



The Star Aviar is the putter mold, not the big bead driver mold. The stability is very straight. The dome is medium; definitely not high. It flies like a stable putter. This is a point and shoot disc. We have not tried the Star driver Aviar yet. My opinion at this point is that we won't need it.

Dave, How do those star aeros perform?

can you flip them over? or are they pretty stable?

thanks!



The Star Aeros are stable, but can be flipped with a fluttery throw. They are point and shoot. Turn over shots stay turned. Hyzers stay hyzered.

The Star Aviar is the putter mold, not the big bead driver mold. The stability is very straight. The dome is medium; definitely not high. It flies like a stable putter. This is a point and shoot disc. We have not tried the Star driver Aviar yet. My opinion at this point is that we won't need it.



Thanks! Sounds like I have to get one, although I'd love to see the driver mold in a different plastic.

Hi Dave. Would you say the Star Aviars compare with the original Champion Edition Aviars ?

Do you not turn over your Star Stingray? I have problems not turning it over. Mine's a 180g.



THe one I'm using now is a 179g and turns over beautifully. Check you release angle and maybe throw with alittle less hyzer. I love it on a 250' hole that's straight with the final pin position hidden behind trees on the right. Perfect.

Dave, What's the consensus on star spiders? Still tossing the idea around? Also, what's the online availability time for those aero's? Thnks

Hi Dave. Would you say the Star Aviars compare with the original Champion Edition Aviars ?



The big difference is the feel in your hand. The Star Aviar feels smoother, has more grip, and comes out of your hand better as a putter. I can't give a flight comparison right now as I don't remember the details of the Champion Aviar flight, but the Star is straight and takes significant abuse. I had a semi truck run my test SA over during testing and it did make the bottom a little rough, but didn't affect the flight at all.

Do you not turn over your Star Stingray? I have problems not turning it over. Mine's a 180g.



THe one I'm using now is a 179g and turns over beautifully. Check you release angle and maybe throw with alittle less hyzer. I love it on a 250' hole that's straight with the final pin position hidden behind trees on the right. Perfect.

Dave, What's the consensus on star spiders? Still tossing the idea around? Also, what's the online availability time for those aero's? Thnks




We don't know about the Spiders right now, but will do some at some point. The Star Aeros should be available within two weeks, maybe sooner.

the Star is straight and takes significant abuse. I had a semi truck run my test SA over during testing and it did make the bottom a little rough, but didn't affect the flight at all.



Thats awesome Dave. I appreciate that you try to make durable plastic, when you could just send out junk so people would have to keep buying them. I've heard stories of other manufacturers enjoying that their discs break easily.

Dave, If I start a petition for star firebirds, how many signatures would it take for you to start making them immediately?

Any plans to add the STAR Cobra?

Dave, Are the STAR Starfire L's being released at the same time as the Aero's ( couple of weeks)?

Thanks

Dave, If I start a petition for star firebirds, how many signatures would it take for you to start making them immediately?



It's not a matter of signatures. It's a matter of molding time.

Any plans to add the STAR Cobra?



Not at this time. Possibly in the future

Dave, Are the STAR Starfire L's being released at the same time as the Aero's ( couple of weeks)?

Thanks



Yes, both are now scheduled to be released Feb 1. It will take a few of days after that to get to shops around the country.

Still planning on Star TLs?

ETA?

thanks

ce

Still planning on Star TLs?

ETA?

thanks

ce



They are starting today. It will take three weeks or so to run them. Looks like March sometime for availability.

Hi Dave. Would you say the Star Aviars compare with the original Champion Edition Aviars ?



The big difference is the feel in your hand. The Star Aviar feels smoother, has more grip, and comes out of your hand better as a putter. I can't give a flight comparison right now as I don't remember the details of the Champion Aviar flight, but the Star is straight and takes significant abuse. I had a semi truck run my test SA over during testing and it did make the bottom a little rough, but didn't affect the flight at all.




Thanks Dave. I still have and occasionally use a 1st Run Texas 10 CE Aviar and liked the Q-Omega as well. I was never a fan of the Champion Aviar or Q-Mega though. The originals had a more compact feel than the later Champion Aviars.

Hey Dave, everytime I beat in a roc so that I can flip it up and then over just a bit, I loose it, This is very upsetting for me. I tried a coyote and liked it, but I just can't handle champ plastic in the pacific north wet. Dx Coyote?

The cobra had a good flight for me, but it's just not deep enough, too shallow for my hands. Stingray, same thing, but even too flippy, once it starts to flip over, it's gonzo.

I guess what I am asking is, is there anything that flies like a beat up roc, out of the box, in a grippy plastic, that has a deep rim?

thank you.

I still use my first run Texas 10 CE Avair as well. Too slick to putt with, though. Can't wait to see what the stars are like. If it has the same flight charecteristics but grippier and grabbier, I'll be very happy and may retire my Omega SuperSofts. Sounds like too much to hope for, though :D

In my opinion...the closest thing to a beat up roc is a dx shark. For me...a brand new dx shark flies very similar to a beat up roc...but that's just me.

I still use my first run Texas 10 CE Avair as well. Too slick to putt with, though. Can't wait to see what the stars are like. If it has the same flight charecteristics but grippier and grabbier, I'll be very happy and may retire my Omega SuperSofts. Sounds like too much to hope for, though :D




Id agree with that. They are pretty slippery, but are the best short approach discs since the 9x KCs. IMO. The one I have is beat to hell and holds perfect lines. It would take years to get another to that state, but would be worth it if it had better grip.

In my opinion...the closest thing to a beat up roc is a dx shark. For me...a brand new dx shark flies very similar to a beat up roc...but that's just me.



I agree with this statement. The Shark is in-between the Roc and Coyote. Another idea is to have several Rocs in various states of beatness. This is a strategy that a lot of Roc lovers use including Ken Climo.

Who is this Ken Climo guy?

When I was throwing Roc I always had three in the bag
Beef -
usualy a fairly new ching stamp flat roc

Straight -
dx that had been around the block a little - rainbow roc was the straight one for a loooooooooong time

right turn clyde -
just what you think this guy was hammered, dependable high or low speed right turn.

Id agree with that. They are pretty slippery, but are the best short approach discs since the 9x KCs. IMO. The one I have is beat to hell and holds perfect lines.


I will second that.

Who is this Ken Climo guy?



he must be the guy who stamps the discs or something. i see his name on a lot of mine

yeah yeah.. I have a z-wasp, and a slightly beat roc. but when ever I get to the "right turn clyde" stage... Clyde ditches me!

so I need a clyde that doesnt take a year to make!

At the risk of angering the readers of this fine thread, I too had the getting ditched problem. I solved it with a Comet. Brand new and it is a gentle right turning disc that gets more right as the beats go on it.

Innova just no longer makes a disc that compares, the stingray is close but seems to get a little squirley in the wind.

Ok Innova does make one simular, had to rack the brain but the Panther will work too, if you can still find one. so would the Wolf or the Puma. I am not sure if any of these are still being made... I also thought the Spider but it only goes right for me at high speed, doesnt really help on shorter technical shots.

Jaymo, I had the same problem when I used to play with Rocs. It was no big deal losing the new Rocs, but the old, worn in trusty turners were gold. Fortunately for me I throw sidearm and backhand so it wasn't too big a deal. The Star Stingray is working fine for me, but it doesn't have the same feel as a Roc. I suppose the best we could do is a DX Coyote. We haven't made those yet as I was concerned about them beating up too quickly. But, it sounds like it would fit the bill for you. I will give it a try after we make Star Coyotes. For the record: my opinion is that DX Rocs beat slowest, DX Sharks beat a little faster, and DX Coyotes would beat the fastest.

thanks again guys,

I agree with the coyote... Dx would be SWEET!
I used to throw panthers, but again the rim was too shallow for me to get a comfortable grip (I have big/fat hands)

As for Comets I never really got into them, and the Pro-D original comets are super hard to find now a days.

I'll have to go with the beat shark for now, until dx coyotes get made.

Again Dave, your comments and support are what keep me innova bound. Thanks :D

i am curious as to where the Aero would fit into that scenario? also, do you expect the STAR Coyote will be more or less stable than its Champion compadre?

i think dave said earlier in this thread that the star coyotes should be about the same as the champ ones

Also dont wanna get anyone angry on this thread but the element also does wonders, I throw a max weight milky white E element which is a lot grippier than champion imo and I get a beautfiul turn out of them, S plastic is uber grippy and these should be perfect.

i am curious as to where the Aero would fit into that scenario? also, do you expect the STAR Coyote will be more or less stable than its Champion compadre?



The Aero might fit very well but it is a different disc that is not as wind resistant as a Roc, Shark, or Coyote. The newer version (Star) is more wind resistant, but I haven't done enough testing to venture an informed opinion.

The Star Coyote will probably be the same stability as the Champion, but you never really know until you make them.

Also dont wanna get anyone angry on this thread but the element also does wonders, I throw a max weight milky white E element which is a lot grippier than champion imo and I get a beautfiul turn out of them, S plastic is uber grippy and these should be perfect.




Makes sense. It was based on a used San Marino Roc, I think. Maybe an Ontario.

Hey Dave, since you are somewhat affiliated with Millennium yet (as far as I know), any thoughts on a Star Sentinel (preferably the Limited Edition Sentinel feel) or a Star JLS? Maybe this up for John's decision. Just curious though. Even a star Orion...ooooOOOOOooooh.

... I also thought the Spider but it only goes right for me at high speed, doesnt really help on shorter technical shots.



The spider is my "Go-To" technical disc. Speed dependancy, height, angulation, apex...this disc can do it all. I suggest you sign-up for my clinics this spring. I'll be doing a "SpiderMan" clinic for my friends that see me do it, but can't quite get the hang of it.
Clinics prices vary...call ahead for availability ;)
As well, every SpiderMan clinic participant gets a max weight ch. spider and gets to the top of the list for STAR Spiders ;) ;) :D:D

Hey Dave, since you are somewhat affiliated with Millennium yet (as far as I know), any thoughts on a Star Sentinel (preferably the Limited Edition Sentinel feel) or a Star JLS? Maybe this up for John's decision. Just curious though. Even a star Orion...ooooOOOOOooooh.


Yes, it is up to John to determine what he wants. We manufacture for him. He has not as yet ordered a Sentinel yet. He has ordered Orions (LF and LS) in a Star type plastic. I believe the JLS will be available in that plastic too. Questions about Millenium probably should be directed to John Houck. He's the boss at Millenium.

The Comet is the only Discraft disc I have in my bag--for the same reasons you outlined.

Dave, Are the STAR Starfire L's being released at the same time as the Aero's ( couple of weeks)?

Thanks



Apparently the release date of both of these discs has been moved up. They are being released now. :confused:

Dave, Are the STAR Starfire L's being released at the same time as the Aero's ( couple of weeks)?

Thanks



Apparently the release date of both of these discs has been moved up. They are being released now. :confused:



Super Dave......moving at the speed of business!!! Great job Dave!!! Its gotta be tricky to balance various production schedules with shipping schedules and release schedules! We definately appreciate everything you do......especially keeping us informed!

what he said. :cool:

He has ordered Orions (LF and LS) in a Star type plastic.



Orion LF ? :eek: :D :D

Wow I just picked up two 172g Champion Starfire's these things are nothing like any starfire I have ever thrown, very stable with a huge finish. good glide and excelent speed, Oh yea and they are both hot pink :D:eek: :D

Way to go on this one Dave :cool:

Dave,
Thanks for all the discs. Love the STAR plastic.

Any idea how long till STAR Eagles will be run? and will they be EX, EL or both?

Thanks

: ) :

Got a chance to test the Star Aero vs my tried and true champion Aero. First of all, the grippy matte finish on mine feels great. Second, it flies nearly identical to my 2 year old Champion Aero. great disc. Champion (and now Star) Aeros are one of my favorite discs. I threw both really hard with a slight hyzer from a 15 foot hill into a field and got probably 365 feet out both of them. they landed just 4 feet apart, exact same flight path. A gentle turnover (more like a slide, cause it doesn't look like it's anything but flat.) that never came back and locked into that flight path without turning more.

Also threw the Star SL, and it's sweet too. I have too many drivers to choose from now!!!

Star Rhyno? That would be sweet.

Dave, Are the STAR Starfire L's being released at the same time as the Aero's ( couple of weeks)?

Thanks



Apparently the release date of both of these discs has been moved up. They are being released now. :confused:



Thanx Dave, Just ordered a few!!!!! & if you fire someone for the early release i can fill the spot :D

Star Zephyr???

Dave,
Thanks for all the discs. Love the STAR plastic.

Any idea how long till STAR Eagles will be run? and will they be EX, EL or both?

Thanks

: ) :



They will be EL for now. We may do a limited run of EX for CFR. It is in the schedule to follow TLs which are running now.

Star Rhyno? That would be sweet.



It's gonna happen, but not that soon. :(

Star Zephyr???



It could happen. Not soon.

Star Viper!!!! :D

Star Rhyno? That would be sweet.



It's gonna happen, but not that soon. :(



I know it may be awhile before they are run, but Dave you just made my day by saying Star Rhynos would be run. I know the Aviar is the most popular putter ever, but for me it doesn't hold a candle to the Rhyno. The best putter and close approach disc on the market for my money.

Star Viper!!!! :D


In the DX Viper mold, not the supremely overstable CFR Viper mold. Please...

Star Viper!!!! :D


In the DX Viper mold, not the supremely overstable CFR Viper mold. Please...



Forget that stuff, You both want a STAR RAM! or aren't you studdly enough?

Dave, Are the STAR Starfire L's being released at the same time as the Aero's ( couple of weeks)?

Thanks



Apparently the release date of both of these discs has been moved up. They are being released now. :confused:


Dave, if you are talking about discgolfvalues.com, those are for pre-orders to be shipped out on the 23rd.

Dave, I hate to keep harping on this, but.....

<font color="orange">I WILL GIVE YOU MY FIRST BORN CHILD FOR </font><font color="red">STAR FIREBIRDS.</font>

Dave,
Technically this isn't an Innova question, but you are probably one of the best-positioned people to anwer it: do you know what happened to the original Ben Wal Puppy/Kitty Hawk mold? And, what disc currently in production do you think most closely resembles/behaves like that disc?

Thanks in advance...

Destiny brought back the Super Puppy. You can get these now at DTW or Disc Flights.

I recently have been using a heavy green Ben Wal. Sounds like it's going to break everytime it hits chains. Sweet straight flying piece of history.

Dave,
Technically this isn't an Innova question, but you are probably one of the best-positioned people to anwer it: do you know what happened to the original Ben Wal Puppy/Kitty Hawk mold? And, what disc currently in production do you think most closely resembles/behaves like that disc?

Thanks in advance...



As far as I know, Headrick got the original Puppy mold. Not sure where it is now, but I assume DGA has it somewhere. The closest disc we have to it is the Polecat. The Super Puppy is similar too, but taller in the rim than the original Puppy.

Thanks, Dave. I'll pick up a few Polecats to try out.

BTW, I loooooove my Roadrunner!

BTW, I loooooove my Roadrunner!



ditto on that! will we probably see a STAR Roadrunner downstream from now Dave? ;)

<font color="blue">O</font>rcs, <font color="blue"> R</font>oadrunners, <font color="blue">C</font>oyotes, and [JK] <font color="blue">A</font>viars

BTW, I loooooove my Roadrunner!



ditto on that! will we probably see a STAR Roadrunner downstream from now Dave? ;)

<font color="blue">O</font>rcs, <font color="blue"> R</font>oadrunners, <font color="blue">C</font>oyotes, and [JK] <font color="blue">A</font>viars



Yes, we will have a Star Roadrunner probably mid year. Maybe sooner if scheduling permits.

Hey Dave, I love the new STAR discs! Is a STAR Roc in the works? Thanks.

Hey Dave, I love the new STAR discs! Is a STAR Roc in the works? Thanks.



I believe that the Star type plastic was used on the Special Blend Rocs for the USDGC fundraising efforts last year. They'll likely do the same for the next run of fundraiser Rocs. Check online vendors and eBay for the Special Blend (aka Star) plastic Rocs.

As far as i know... The "Star" plastic (aka Special Blend or SB) Was used in the Special Blend ROC from last years fundraiser and it was also the Plastic used for the Spectator Roc at the latest USDGC... So there have been 2 rocs made in Star already, but don't expect it to ever be a production run.. Champion and Star Rocs will be fundraisers only for a long time since they raise so much money for the USDGC.

-Scott Lewis

Thats what I was afraid of. I couldn't find any online vendors with Special Blend Rocs, so I had to get one from E-Bay. I don't mind spending the dough, but I want to support the tourney and not pad someones pocket who is just out to make as much cash as he can.

Dave,

I have a twofer for you this morning:

1. Will you be phasing out drivers in the Pro plastic with the release of the Star plastic?

2. Have you guys tweaked the Spider mold? I have a couple of new ones that seem less high speed stable. Is it you or me?

Thanks.

Thats what I was afraid of. I couldn't find any online vendors with Special Blend Rocs, so I had to get one from E-Bay. I don't mind spending the dough, but I want to support the tourney and not pad someones pocket who is just out to make as much cash as he can.

Whenever you buy in a secondary market you support the primary market, so buying on e-bay does support the tourney. The guy who originally bought the disc might have been thinking, "It supports the tourney, and if i don't like it I can e-bay it." I've seen a lot of discs I've sold as the TD being resold on e-bay. I think that's great. I think it makes it easier to make a sale sometimes. I wonder if Dave feels the same way about e-bay.

Dave, how do you feel about e-bay?

Its ruining disc golf. :D

Thats what I was afraid of. I couldn't find any online vendors with Special Blend Rocs, so I had to get one from E-Bay. I don't mind spending the dough, but I want to support the tourney and not pad someones pocket who is just out to make as much cash as he can.



Just keep in mind we all paid $25.00 for the 2005 Special Blends Rocs as they were called at the time. Matter of fact I think the 2006 Spectator Rocs were still called Special Blends, just before the release of the first Star Line product, they too were $25.00. So the point is Pay as close to $25.00 for the disc(s) and you will be not be lining those pockets.

Dave,

I have a twofer for you this morning:

1. Will you be phasing out drivers in the Pro plastic with the release of the Star plastic?

2. Have you guys tweaked the Spider mold? I have a couple of new ones that seem less high speed stable. Is it you or me?

Thanks.



We may eventually phase out Pro plastic if the demand doesn't remain. As it is, we still have a good demand for Pro Wraiths, and Pro Starfires and a few others that we will continue to make. I haven't tweaked the Spider mold. The Spider should have a slight high speed turn, but shouldn't bail.

Thats what I was afraid of. I couldn't find any online vendors with Special Blend Rocs, so I had to get one from E-Bay. I don't mind spending the dough, but I want to support the tourney and not pad someones pocket who is just out to make as much cash as he can.

Whenever you buy in a secondary market you support the primary market, so buying on e-bay does support the tourney. The guy who originally bought the disc might have been thinking, "It supports the tourney, and if i don't like it I can e-bay it." I've seen a lot of discs I've sold as the TD being resold on e-bay. I think that's great. I think it makes it easier to make a sale sometimes. I wonder if Dave feels the same way about e-bay.

Dave, how do you feel about e-bay?



I really don't know how I feel about ebay except I see people paying a lot of money for some discs. Sometimes I wonder why.

Hey Dave how's it going? The SB plastic is excellent! What a beauty to dye with.

Will Barry be getting a 2nd disc and what are the discs that players can't get a signature put on?

Dave, most of the time the talk on here is about plastic, I want to switch up and ask about accessories. I'll start off by saying I wouldn't play the game if it weren't for Innova, it is literally all I throw and all I will ever carry.

When I first started playing I recieived the gift of an Innova starter bag, I outgrew it within a couple of months and moved on to the deluxe bag. After only 3 months the strap latches broke off and I had to staple them back on until I came into the cash to purchase a Tour Bag. Recently the same thing happened to my Tour Bag walking down the fairway, it just snapped. Now don't get me wrong, I am not complaining at all, I know I put a little more wear and tear on my bags than most. However it is evident to me that while, in my humble opinion, Innova makes the best plastic bar none. The standard for bag production may not be up to par with some of the competition. Not just on the durability side either, I think the dividers that come standard as well as some other accessories are, for lack of a better word, sub-par.

Now that I've stated myself, my question is this:

Innova is quite obviously the leader in this market, are bags and baskets less of a priority to the leadership in the company or is there just a lack of buyer feedback on those items because it is overshadowed by disc production?

Sorry for the length and thank you for reading it. Know that I am not unhappy with my purchases at all, but I know from the discs you produce that the quality could be much better.

Was your tour bag the old one or the late 2005 remodel???

because the new one's are money! they have more space, and are WAY MORE durable. :D

Agreed jaymo. They are much more durable.

**** its all good i am just starting to like the Pro as apposed to the Pro Line and I also like the Champion but only when the weather is not to cold.

Hey Dave how's it going? The SB plastic is excellent! What a beauty to dye with.

Will Barry be getting a 2nd disc and what are the discs that players can't get a signature put on?



Barry has two discs now. The Champion Leopard was decided on last year. The stock needs to be rotated through as the timing couldn't have been worse. We had just stamped the previous version, of a large run. The only discs with signitures would be Champion at this point. That may change in the future. There is no protected model except the Champion Roc, that I can think of.

Sweet. I thought it was the leopard. That was the rumor here in Wisconsin. Thanks Dave! Oh was there any plan about using Star line as signature also?

10up, quality is a concern around everything we do or make. Quality problems have been a major concern with the bags, and the greatest concern was the Tour bag. Stitching has been a nightmare. We had to scrap entire runs of bags for this reason. We seem to have gotten over it now with our latest runs. We have two new versions we are working on now. We will not stop trying to make the highest quality products we can. This has been very embarrassing and exasperating for us over the last couple of years. We appreciate your patience and loyalty, but understand if you needed to get a bag from another company because we weren't cutting it.

Dave,

It is great the way you guys are trying to improve your products. I too had a tour bag that fell apart badly; but I have great faith in Innova to make a better product. Seems you guys always move forward making your products better and better each day. I will have to look into a new tour bags. I tell you I get so much flak for only using Innova products since I'm not pro. Hey looking to sponsor any AM's? Hehe I had to try Dave. I'm comfortable with Innova's product and I stay loyal to that. I don't know what the big deal is.

Josh

Dave, I just saw on the web site that you are coming out with a Star SL. I have a beast and think it is faster than but not more stable than my champion, but I have noticed the sidewinders star plastic is stable. I was wondering if the SL is going to be more like the Pro plastic flight or the Champion SL flight.

Dave, I just saw on the web site that you are coming out with a Star SL. I have a beast and think it is faster than but not more stable than my champion, but I have noticed the sidewinders star plastic is stable. I was wondering if the SL is going to be more like the Pro plastic flight or the Champion SL flight.



I would expect the Star to be more like the Champion than the Pro. The ones I have tested were that way.

Can someone tell me the difference between the USDGC "Spectator" Roc and the regular SB Roc? Is it the mold or the plastic? Does it have a different stamp? I bought one on eBay that was advertised as a 2006 USDGC Special Blend Roc and it has the big claw stamp. It reminds me a lot of the 2001s in profile. I like it and wouldn't mind having another one.

10up, quality is a concern around everything we do or make. Quality problems have been a major concern with the bags, and the greatest concern was the Tour bag. Stitching has been a nightmare. We had to scrap entire runs of bags for this reason. We seem to have gotten over it now with our latest runs. We have two new versions we are working on now. We will not stop trying to make the highest quality products we can. This has been very embarrassing and exasperating for us over the last couple of years. We appreciate your patience and loyalty, but understand if you needed to get a bag from another company because we weren't cutting it.



What more could anyone ask for? I knew you wouldn't take it as bashing.

Having a great product gets good business, but taking the time to respond to questions like you do, and striving for improvement, is, in my opinion, unparallelled in this sport.

I wouldn't get another bag just on principle at this point.

Thanks Again

Talk about blind loyalty, I throw 98% innova and put them in my revolution bag with the quad shocks. :p

I think this year's SB rocs and the 2005 spectator rocs are one in the same. They seem to fly a little more overstable than the 2004 SB rocs too.

FullCircle:
it's not a 2006 SB roc.. THat was a Spectator Roc sold at the 2005 USDGC... I'm not sure what the mold is, but they should be similar to the 2005 SB fundraiser Rocs....
Chances are the 2006 Rocs will have at least 1 mold/stamp as a Star/Special Blend so go for them as they will only be $25 a piece.

-Scott Lewis

FullCircle:
it's not a 2006 SB roc.. THat was a Spectator Roc sold at the 2005 USDGC... I'm not sure what the mold is, but they should be similar to the 2005 SB fundraiser Rocs....
Chances are the 2006 Rocs will have at least 1 mold/stamp as a Star/Special Blend so go for them as they will only be $25 a piece.

-Scott Lewis



The mold for both year's SB Rocs has been the Ontario blunt nose type even though it says Rancho Cucamonga. These are straighter and less overstable than the Rancho type.

First off I love the star plastic, but that has nothing to do with my question. I have a friend who loves to throw "cloudy" red champion cobras. He has a hard time finding these and I can't help but notice how similar the plastic looks and feels like my CE Teebird. So I guess my question is did innova ever make CE cobras and if so is the stamp different? The ones he throws have the same stamp they use now. Thanks Dave in advance.

Also, can next years USDGC roc's be a different mold? The ontario mold is my least favorite (too understable). Just wondering if you have plans for next year or is it already set in stone.

What mold is the glow roc from last year?

rancho.