We have run Vulcans as light as 158g, but the plastic doesn't always cooperate to go down that low. I believe we are making 160gm of late. The Ape will not go down to 150 class in Star. I believe the Flick is a mid 50s disc, but we don't have anything quite that light except some very flat Firebirds we made recently. Monsters won't get that light.

Hey dave I managed to get my hands on a heavier firebird that was for a pdga event I attended recently on april 30th. I see what your talking about with the flat firebirds. The fb I picked up was max weight and flat and hard as a board.

There has been some apes coming in at 172g is this a mistake or intended?

Give a raise to who ever pushed the button who made my disc.


Also your EG Boss is amazing beyond words.

High Five:D

Thanks Dave. Would you remember which discs were run with that plastic from the first 2 batches you mentioned? BTW it's great that that you take the time to do this. I for one really do appreciate it! Thank you!

Thanks again,Mark

Valkyries, Firebirds, TeeBirds, TeeBird L, Leopards. Also probably EagleL and Banshee. Less probably but possible: Cheetahs.

Hi Dave,

One of my workhorse discs is a 150g gummy Champion TeeBird. I love the grippiness of the gummy plastic, and the proven predictability of the TeeBird's flight. I know you produce some TL's in Champion plastic as part of the TFR/CFR program. Are there ever any of these discs produced in 150-class weights, especially using that great gummy plastic?

Thanks!

We usually don't do 150 for TFR?CFR and I don't remember doing any TLs in gummy. Maybe, but I don't remember any. Valks, yes. TeeBees yes. Leopards yes. Panthers yes.

Hey dave I managed to get my hands on a heavier firebird that was for a pdga event I attended recently on april 30th. I see what your talking about with the flat firebirds. The fb I picked up was max weight and flat and hard as a board.

There has been some apes coming in at 172g is this a mistake or intended?

Give a raise to who ever pushed the button who made my disc.


Also your EG Boss is amazing beyond words.

High Five:D

Apes will go down to 170, but not consistently. We have run Pro Apes down to 161 gms. They are stupid stable, soft, grippy, and domey.

What does a C on the bottom of a champion plastic disc stand for? Cheetah? Cobra? It looks to be a midrange disc or a short driver...

What does a C on the bottom of a champion plastic disc stand for? Cheetah? Cobra? It looks to be a midrange disc or a short driver...

C could be Co, Cy, Cro, Ch. Cheetah is a fairway driver. All the others are mids. I would have to see the disc to confirm one way or another.

Dave,
the Rancho Jurupa 9 hole course is ok, not to many trees and very simple. Only one long hole. hole 2 400+. The rest are all easy and simple holes. Only 2 holes have trees on them really. Most holes are 240-280 feet and wide open. Do you have a time line for the course in Devour? Let me know thanks

Dave,
the Rancho Jurupa 9 hole course is ok, not to many trees and very simple. Only one long hole. hole 2 400+. The rest are all easy and simple holes. Only 2 holes have trees on them really. Most holes are 240-280 feet and wide open. Do you have a time line for the course in Devour? Let me know thanks

No time line yet, but we have gotten a purchase order for the baskets, and the course has already been designed.

Dave,
I talk to you a while ago about the course in Devour and you had mentioned that if they let you design the course on a certain piece of land that you wanted it would be a really awesome course. By chance did they give you that land or just another random part of the park. I purchased a year pass for the san bernardino regional parks now that there will be three parks with potentially awesome courses. I love the prado and yucaipa courses. Any word about the Yucaipa course? Are they moving the baskets or adding another 18 hole course. Let me know and thanks for keeping me on top of things.

Dave,
I talk to you a while ago about the course in Devour and you had mentioned that if they let you design the course on a certain piece of land that you wanted it would be a really awesome course. By chance did they give you that land or just another random part of the park. I purchased a year pass for the san bernardino regional parks now that there will be three parks with potentially awesome courses. I love the prado and yucaipa courses. Any word about the Yucaipa course? Are they moving the baskets or adding another 18 hole course. Let me know and thanks for keeping me on top of things.

Sorry, I didn't get the part of the park with the water. But I did get enough space for three Par 4s.

Yucaipa is adding another 18 in a previously unused part of the park that isn't even open yet. It has to have the fences moved and brush removed before we can start designing.

Dave, any update on the factor store?

Dave, any update on the factor store?

Inquiring Minds Would Like To Know...

Even the URL for this store would be nice...

Dave, any update on the factor store?

Every time I ask, it's two to three weeks. Same this time. Apparently the money processing system needs to be finalized, and discs hot stamped. Other than that, I am told we are good to go.

Every time I ask, it's two to three weeks. Same this time. Apparently the money processing system needs to be finalized, and discs hot stamped. Other than that, I am told we are good to go.

Anyway to get a list of what the store will carry posted here so that i can set a part of my paycheck for "misc. expenses"...?

Dave - I finally was able to try out the Vulcan and Archon this weekend with near-full power drives. Speaking as a player with somewhat slower arm speed, I love these discs! The Vulcan was super-fast coming out of my hand and flipped up very nicely from a hyzer release. It had a long, consistent turn, which will require some fine-tuning of nose and release angle to perfect, but I'm looking forward to having this new distance tool in my bag. I didn't try any rollers, but there's a trip out to Goat Hill in my future for that.

The Archon was also a pleasant surprise. I have carried a Wraith in the past in a limited fashion, but always wanted them to flip a little bit more. The Archon does that for me. The disc I was throwing was heavier than I would normally throw, but I used it on a few headwind shots which seemed to suit the heavier weight fine.

Thank you for these new designs!

dave,

i was under the impression that when you buy an Am Worlds disc youre supposed to get a card with it. am i correct? if so, what is the card supposed to be for? and what should i do if i didnt get one?

dave,

i was under the impression that when you buy an Am Worlds disc youre supposed to get a card with it. am i correct? if so, what is the card supposed to be for? and what should i do if i didnt get one?

CFR discs get certificates that you fill out and send in for prize drawings each month. I assume the Am Worlds discs are part of the CFR program. I think you need to ask the person you bought it from. If it was one of our sites, no problem, let them know. If it was a dealer intermediary, possibly a problem as some of them have been keeping the certificates or don't know they should be giving them to the end customer. I suggest you call or email the west or east coast office and ask for the person who handles the CFR program for you exact course of action.

.

Dear Dave -

As we are nearing your Mid-May target date I am getting excited.
Is the intention that Star Archon's will be PRESSED in Mid-May or RELEASED then?

Thanks -

.

.

As I am new to DG, I have experienced some confusion regarding the terms OVERstable, UNDERstable, and just plain STABLE.

Overstable seems to describe a RHBH throw finishing hard to the left.
Understable seems to describe the same throw creating a rightish turn or a potential turnover.

That leaves STABLE.

As a psychologist, STABLE in a person leads one to believe that variance is low, and extremes in behavior are not usually in evidence.

I originally thought a STABLE disc was one that flew basically STRAIGHT -
With little fade or variance one way or the other.

Yet it seems when people say a disc is STABLE, they mean OVERSTABLE.

Why don't they say OVERSTABLE??

Sorry for my ignorance, but it seems quite confusing.

.

.

Dear Dave -

As we are nearing your Mid-May target date I am getting excited.
Is the intention that Star Archon's will be PRESSED in Mid-May or RELEASED then?

Thanks -

.

The date of release to dealers. It might have gotten pushed back to the 23rd, but was originally the previous week. Basically, that means the release date to the end user will be end of May.

.

As I am new to DG, I have experienced some confusion regarding the terms OVERstable, UNDERstable, and just plain STABLE.

Overstable seems to describe a RHBH throw finishing hard to the left.
Understable seems to describe the same throw creating a rightish turn or a potential turnover.

That leaves STABLE.

As a psychologist, STABLE in a person leads one to believe that variance is low, and extremes in behavior are not usually in evidence.

I originally thought a STABLE disc was one that flew basically STRAIGHT -
With little fade or variance one way or the other.

Yet it seems when people say a disc is STABLE, they mean OVERSTABLE.

Why don't they say OVERSTABLE??

Sorry for my ignorance, but it seems quite confusing.

.

Your understanding is correct. Stable means straight or resistance to turning over at high speeds. Usually, the discs that are resistant to turning over at high speeds also have a lot of high speed dive or fade. So, it is true that an Ape is stable at high speeds, even though it is overstable at low speeds.

.

As I am new to DG, I have experienced some confusion regarding the terms OVERstable, UNDERstable, and just plain STABLE.

Overstable seems to describe a RHBH throw finishing hard to the left.
Understable seems to describe the same throw creating a rightish turn or a potential turnover.

That leaves STABLE.

As a psychologist, STABLE in a person leads one to believe that variance is low, and extremes in behavior are not usually in evidence.

I originally thought a STABLE disc was one that flew basically STRAIGHT -
With little fade or variance one way or the other.






This is the way I was taught the terminology when I started playing DG 7 or so years ago....but lately it seems more and more people are using "Stable" when they are talking about "overstable" discs. So I am glad to see this in Dave's reply.

Your understanding is correct. Stable means straight or resistance to turning over at high speeds.

Anyway to get a list of what the store will carry posted here so that i can set a part of my paycheck for "misc. expenses"...?

Here are some of the first offerings:

Star Viper, DX Classic Roc, Pro TB, Pro Sidewinder, Pro TL, DX Classic Ace, DX Classic Hammer, Pro Gazelle, Star Gazelle, Dx Raven, Star Raven, Ch Scorpion, Dx Python, Pro Coupe, Dx Condor, Dx Eagle L

And other stuff: S-Line PD Proto, SE Cheetah proto, SE Viking proto, various X outs etc.

Innova Apparel

More stuff will be added as molded or found.

Here are some of the first offerings:

Star Viper, DX Classic Roc, Pro TB, Pro Sidewinder, Pro TL, DX Classic Ace, DX Classic Hammer, Pro Gazelle, Star Gazelle, Dx Raven, Star Raven, Ch Scorpion, Dx Python, Pro Coupe, Dx Condor, Dx Eagle L

And other stuff: S-Line PD Proto, SE Cheetah proto, SE Viking proto, various X outs etc.

Innova Apparel

More stuff will be added as molded or found.


any chance for DX Tanks or snipers?

Dave,

Has there been any thought/is it possible to make a pig in a more durable plastic? I like the grip on the R-Pro but it gets tacoed a little too easily and I'm finding myself not wanting to throw it near roads.

Here are some of the first offerings:

Star Viper, DX Classic Roc, Pro TB, Pro Sidewinder, Pro TL, DX Classic Ace, DX Classic Hammer, Pro Gazelle, Star Gazelle, Dx Raven, Star Raven, Ch Scorpion, Dx Python, Pro Coupe, Dx Condor, Dx Eagle L

Are the Condors being molded for this or were they found in the factory?


About how many of each mold will be available when the store launches?

any chance for DX Tanks or snipers?

yes

Dave,

Has there been any thought/is it possible to make a pig in a more durable plastic? I like the grip on the R-Pro but it gets tacoed a little too easily and I'm finding myself not wanting to throw it near roads.

Yes. The more durable blends tend to mold more poorly so we try to strike a balance between molding and durability.

Are the Condors being molded for this or were they found in the factory?


About how many of each mold will be available when the store launches?

The Condors are being molded for the store.

The number for each mold is relatively low and varies among models. Models that have been asked for in the past will be more readily available.

Any chance for Piranhas? I think you said that mold was broken at some point :(.

here are some of the first offerings:

Star viper


hellz yea!!! :d

any chance for DX Tanks or snipers?

yes

Awesome!!! when they come out ill be buying lots of tanks. and my buddy will be happy that his dwindling supply of snipers will be replenish-able somewhere in the future. you are truly going to make alot of people really happy!

What is going on with the Jaguar? I saw about 4 or 5 months ago where I could buy them for around $8 each, but had one still. Now that I have lost mine, I can't find anyone who still has them for less than $25. I only use it for rollers, once in a great while, but am lost without it when I need it. Did Innova quit producing it? Is it going to be made again?

What's the best source for flight info about OOP discs like ace, python, coupe, hammer, etc.

What is going on with the Jaguar? I saw about 4 or 5 months ago where I could buy them for around $8 each, but had one still. Now that I have lost mine, I can't find anyone who still has them for less than $25. I only use it for rollers, once in a great while, but am lost without it when I need it. Did Innova quit producing it? Is it going to be made again?

We did take it out of regular production, but it will be available at the Factory Store at some point.

What's the best source for flight info about OOP discs like ace, python, coupe, hammer, etc.

The Factory Store will have the information. Right now, you can go to askdave@innovadiscs.com

dave, since the champion roc plus is now out can we soon expect a champ glow version in regular production? that would be a huge seller...HUGE!

Yes. The more durable blends tend to mold more poorly so we try to strike a balance between molding and durability.

I guess more what I was getting at is is it possible to make the pig in star or champion or mix those plastics with the r-pro. I'd love to have something slicker too.

dave, since the champion roc plus is now out can we soon expect a champ glow version in regular production? that would be a huge seller...HUGE!

Probably not. We usually put the Champion Glow in CFR.

I guess more what I was getting at is is it possible to make the pig in star or champion or mix those plastics with the r-pro. I'd love to have something slicker too.

We can't mix with R-Pro, but it might be possible to make the Pig in Star or Champion.

hellz yea!!! :d


You still throw that thing?

What about the RAM....???

Champion rams!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Champion rams!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I second that!!!

Bring back the Coupe.

Bring back the Coupe.

Coupe would be cool in Pro or R Pro.

I bought the caddypack a while back and have had several people ask me, that already have the same bag used, if the straps and chair would be sold by themselves.

any chance?

I bought the caddypack a while back and have had several people ask me, that already have the same bag used, if the straps and chair would be sold by themselves.

any chance?

Yes, later on this year. However, the bags had to be retrofitted to work with the system. In other words, you will be able to purchase each item separately, but only the new bags will be compatible with the Caddypack system. I jerryrigged the first proto with an old bag, but it's much better with the new bags.

Bring back the Coupe.

Already back.

Dave,

What flight numbers would you give the CE QMS?

Thanks

Dave,

What flight numbers would you give the CE QMS?

Thanks

About 4,4,0,1 to 4,4,0,2

I recently got a champ glow disc that seems to be a Roc but is marked as "CO". Only stamp on it is a small Innova swoosh. Just curious as to why it was marked as CO.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v108/sleepingsuicide/IMG_20110515_163605.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v108/sleepingsuicide/IMG_20110515_163415.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v108/sleepingsuicide/IMG_20110515_163618.jpg

Cobra.

Cobra.

Yep.

Just wanted to add that I'm also excited to hear about the availability of new run Tanks. I'm not normally a fan of soft putters but I've been using the R-Pro Tanks anyway because that mold works so well for me.

Please keep them available.

Got a question about a CE Teebird T mold and verification.

It has a barstamp is milky white but does not say SE.

The stamp is a full size of this stamp. Sadly the stamp has been wiped.

http://i1090.photobucket.com/albums/i380/AirMcNair23/Discs/DSC_0693-1.jpg

Got a question about a CE Teebird T mold and verification.

It has a barstamp is milky white but does not say SE.

The stamp is a full size of this stamp. Sadly the stamp has been wiped.

http://i1090.photobucket.com/albums/i380/AirMcNair23/Discs/DSC_0693-1.jpg

i believe that is just DX. my buddy had some archangels like that. not CE or SE for sure.

dave,

i see the new run tanks are San Marino mold. my Y2k is an Ontario. Whats the difference if any?

dave,

i see the new run tanks are San Marino mold. my Y2k is an Ontario. Whats the difference if any?

It's like the difference between Rocs; subtle, if you don't know what to look for. In the case of the Tanks; I haven't seen the difference, but the San Marinos should have more torque resistance at high speeds and in the wind.

I heard a rumor today that gazelles are going OOP. Will the DX gazelle continue to be standard production?

Might there be plans for champ whippets at the factory store this year?

Regarding the limited runs at the factory store, does each run result in the same or very similar weight for each disc, or will we be seeing the same limited run mold and plastic in a large variety of weights?

I heard a rumor today that gazelles are going OOP. Will the DX gazelle continue to be standard production?

Might there be plans for champ whippets at the factory store this year?

Regarding the limited runs at the factory store, does each run result in the same or very similar weight for each disc, or will we be seeing the same limited run mold and plastic in a large variety of weights?

The DX Gazelle will continue to be run in regular production. The limited runs do usually have limited weight ranges. Generally the weights run are the higher end such as 165gms +. However, if you are interested in particular weights, discs or plastic types, you can contact Eric at Innova West. He will be running the Factory Store.

Whippets will probably be run in Star as it is easier to get higher weights with Star than Champion in speed 6-8 drivers. If Eric knows before we run that customers want lower weights in Champion. We may be able to accommodate, depending on molding schedule. It doesn't hurt to ask.

Already back.

Dave,
You said the Coupe is available now, who's selling them?

Dave,
You said the Coupe is available now, who's selling them?

I meant they have already been run and are in the Factory Store's inventory.

However, if you are interested in particular weights, discs or plastic types, you can contact Eric at Innova West. He will be running the Factory Store.


may i have his contact info please?

may i have his contact info please?
1-800-408-8449

i believe that is just DX. my buddy had some archangels like that. not CE or SE for sure.

Maybe the disc in the picture but I think that the disc he is talking about is a Winnicrew/ Cam Todd Teebird. Check the collectors thread for more info.

Dave,

I've seen a few of these "Test Configuration Valkyrie X's" that were made in CE plastic. Namely Mark has some still for sale on his site. Do you know how these things fly at all? Were they more of a Viking than a Valkyrie? Or were they notched like an Eagle-X?

Being a huge Valk thrower I've always wondered if they'd be worth picking up and if they'd glide/carry like other Valks or if it would be a bit of a dud.

Dave,

I've seen a few of these "Test Configuration Valkyrie X's" that were made in CE plastic. Namely Mark has some still for sale on his site. Do you know how these things fly at all? Were they more of a Viking than a Valkyrie? Or were they notched like an Eagle-X?

Being a huge Valk thrower I've always wondered if they'd be worth picking up and if they'd glide/carry like other Valks or if it would be a bit of a dud.

Sorry, I don't really remember, but from the name, I could offer a possibility. The most likely is a Valkyrie with a more stable Firebird platform. That result would have a similar speed and real glide as a Valkyrie, but less apparent glide because it would be harder for it to flip into a good glide plane like discs with a little more turn. Apparent glide is also affected by how fast a disc wants to fade from its cruise speed. This disc would want to fade a little faster than a Valk, but not as fast as a FireB.

Dear Dave,

I was just wondering about the champ Rocs and the "plus" rim. Will you please tell me, is that a different mold, or is it just that the champ plastic settles differently when it comes out of the regular mold?

I just have to wonder since I have never seen any champ rocs without the "plus" rim.

Thanks!

Dear Dave,

I was just wondering about the champ Rocs and the "plus" rim. Will you please tell me, is that a different mold, or is it just that the champ plastic settles differently when it comes out of the regular mold?

I just have to wonder since I have never seen any champ rocs without the "plus" rim.

Thanks!

One part of the mold is different such that it makes the grip feel a little bigger. Sometimes the plastic does settle and give the impression of a slight + mold, but this is more than that.

Sorry, I don't really remember, but from the name, I could offer a possibility. The most likely is a Valkyrie with a more stable Firebird platform. That result would have a similar speed and real glide as a Valkyrie, but less apparent glide because it would be harder for it to flip into a good glide plane like discs with a little more turn. Apparent glide is also affected by how fast a disc wants to fade from its cruise speed. This disc would want to fade a little faster than a Valk, but not as fast as a FireB.

I am not Dave, but I have been comparing the side by side recently, the Viking and Valk looks pretty similar, the underside of the wing is both concave. The Valk X underside looks less concave, almost straight. So Valk top with a FB bottom?

Dave,
Any chance of a Destroyer bottom with a Vulcan top? I LOVE the flight path of the Vulcan but the rim is just not deep enough. Im just hoping the Vulcan top would make it into a flippy Destroyer.

Thanks

Dave,
Any chance of a Destroyer bottom with a Vulcan top? I LOVE the flight path of the Vulcan but the rim is just not deep enough. Im just hoping the Vulcan top would make it into a flippy Destroyer.

Thanks

I don't think that combination would produce a flippy Destroyer but we will be looking at it.

Dave...I'm very excited to learn that Champion Scorpions and Star Vipers will be available through the factory store. I live in SC and have been throwing Vipers and Scorpions since they they first came out. I'd love to pick up a couple of each. How can I buy some?

Dave...I'm very excited to learn that Champion Scorpions and Star Vipers will be available through the factory store. I live in SC and have been throwing Vipers and Scorpions since they they first came out. I'd love to pick up a couple of each. How can I buy some?

Call Eric at Innova West. He will be running the store when it opens.

Hey Dave, will the Wahoo ever come in a different plastic besides r-pro? If so, what plastic? Thanks!

Hey Dave, will the Wahoo ever come in a different plastic besides r-pro? If so, what plastic? Thanks!

The only two plastics the Wahoo can be made in are DX or R-Pro. All others would be too heavy. DX would tend to be stiff as a brick.

What is the url for the Factory store website?

wrong info

Dave, What are the odds of seeing a Star plastic run of the XD this year?

Dave, Got a curiousity question. How long do you think you can keep coming out with a new disc every few months?

When I started playing DG...which is not that long ago in the grand sceme of Disc Golf(2004), we were lucky to see 1 new disc a year..if that. Now days it seems like something new is being released every few months. Which for sure pumps up disc sales, as everyone has got the to have "the latest and greatest". Even if they don't need or have the arm for it.

Dave,

I've seen a few of these "Test Configuration Valkyrie X's" that were made in CE plastic. Namely Mark has some still for sale on his site. Do you know how these things fly at all? Were they more of a Viking than a Valkyrie? Or were they notched like an Eagle-X?

Being a huge Valk thrower I've always wondered if they'd be worth picking up and if they'd glide/carry like other Valks or if it would be a bit of a dud.

The VX i used to own was a stable and straight thing of beauty. they were lasers that did whatever you wanted them too. they even flew straight into hard headwinds. would flip nice with alot of power and didnt have hard fade but some. i was really ****** when some chucker ran off with it. its similar to the whole BX BL, TB TL, EX EL, FB FL...so on and so on.

Dave,

Is it possible to run the Champ Glo Firebirds down to 157-159g ? That would be a good fundraiser for the Japan Open.

If you could, would you?

Dave,

Is it possible to run the Champ Glo Firebirds down to 157-159g ? That would be a good fundraiser for the Japan Open.

If you could, would you?

That decision would be up to Sam Ferrans, but I certainly would if he wanted it. I don't know if it is possible as the Glo adds weight.

Dave, What are the odds of seeing a Star plastic run of the XD this year?

No idea right now. It depends on how many requests we get and opportunity to mold.

Dave, Got a curiousity question. How long do you think you can keep coming out with a new disc every few months?

When I started playing DG...which is not that long ago in the grand sceme of Disc Golf(2004), we were lucky to see 1 new disc a year..if that. Now days it seems like something new is being released every few months. Which for sure pumps up disc sales, as everyone has got the to have "the latest and greatest". Even if they don't need or have the arm for it.

I have no idea. I thought I was done a couple of years ago, but they keep on coming on.

Hi Dave,

I saw that someone asked about this in 2008, but will the Pig become available in Star plastic? It's by far my favorite utility disc and I'd love to get one in beefier plastic (although a beat up pig is great too). Also, will it ever become available in regular Pro plastic again?

Thanks.

Hi Dave,

I saw that someone asked about this in 2008, but will the Pig become available in Star plastic? It's by far my favorite utility disc and I'd love to get one in beefier plastic (although a beat up pig is great too). Also, will it ever become available in regular Pro plastic again?

Thanks.

We will do some Star or Champion if it is possible weight wise. R-Pro is the usual, but we may be able to do some driver Pro in the future, if we can secure a good supply of the plastic.

We will do some Star or Champion if it is possible weight wise. R-Pro is the usual, but we may be able to do some driver Pro in the future, if we can secure a good supply of the plastic.

A gummy champion Pig would be awfully nice.

What do you think would results in a flippy Destroyer or should I just throw the Pro Destroyers?

What do you think would results in a flippy Destroyer or should I just throw the Pro Destroyers?

Sorry, I don't understand the question.

What do you think would results in a flippy Destroyer or should I just throw the Pro Destroyers?

Throw the Pro. It will be beat up before you know it and should be the disc your asking about. I stopped throwing them because they turned into what you want.

Dave, Got a curiousity question. How long do you think you can keep coming out with a new disc every few months?

When I started playing DG...which is not that long ago in the grand sceme of Disc Golf(2004), we were lucky to see 1 new disc a year..if that. Now days it seems like something new is being released every few months. Which for sure pumps up disc sales, as everyone has got the to have "the latest and greatest". Even if they don't need or have the arm for it.


Seriously? You understand that Innova is a business right? The point of being in business is to make money. It doesnt matter if its needed or not, or if its worthwhile, its coming either way.

My question is how long will it be before the tech standards are "changed" so you can release even more discs? How many are already waiting in the wings when this happens? I remember when there was talk about how Dave D wanted a limit to speed and rim width for PDGA play, which I fully supported. What went wrong there?

According to the newest flight charts you can only fill one more box on top of the Ape, which I assume will be an Ape-X or something I am sure is in the works? Its been a month...

Dave D and Innova were against raising the wing width to the level that was set. The Tech group and Board finally decided to set the value at the smallest wing width dimension of the Epic which had already been approved. Just like the other manufacturers, Innova has created discs that meet the revised specs that were set at that time. There's no lurking initiative by any manufacturer that we're (Tech Standards) aware of nor the PDGA to extend the specs beyond their current levels.

Dave D and Innova were against raising the wing width to the level that was set. The Tech group and Board finally decided to set the value at the smallest wing width dimension of the Epic which had already been approved. Just like the other manufacturers, Innova has created discs that meet the revised specs that were set at that time. There's no lurking initiative by any manufacturer that we're (Tech Standards) aware of nor the PDGA to extend the specs beyond their current levels.

That your aware of? Seriously? Why would they bring it up to you? Possibly to feel out where you may be on it, but otherwise I dont think thats a decision Innova or any other business is going to include you in on until they have to.

They will get changed, and Im not saying Innova is lobbying for that change, but I am saying they will and was curious how long the Innova timeline is on that. Since I probably wont get a real answer, no worries. Ill just wait another year or 2 for it to happen, like everyone else.

Definitely a cynical point of view. If the Epic had not been approved quite a while ago, the wing width spec likely wouldn't be as wide as it is now. It was close to 50/50 on being set 3mm less. I would not hold your breath on any future increase in the wing width. The next spec change if any might be to support night disc golf. Manufacturers are unlikely to share their new designs that will fall within existing specs with us in advance. But several have shared potential innovations in advance that might require a change in specs.

Now that the CFR Vulcan has run it's course, may we order those as CFR's for other events?

Dear Dave,

Retailers report lately that they are not able to get Gazelles lower in weight than170.

Can you please offer some insight on what causes this issue, and a prediction regarding whether this one is likely temporary or permanent?

Now that the CFR Vulcan has run it's course, may we order those as CFR's for other events?

I don't know for sure yet (no one in offices yet), but I don't see why not except possibly for supply. The supply issue, if any, will only be temporary.

Dear Dave,

Retailers report lately that they are not able to get Gazelles lower in weight than170.

Can you please offer some insight on what causes this issue, and a prediction regarding whether this one is likely temporary or permanent?

We have two different supply sources in East and West offices. East Coast is out of 165-169gm. It is definitely only a temporary issue.

Now that the CFR Vulcan has run it's course, may we order those as CFR's for other events?

The sales guys say July 1, they will be available for other CFR events.

whats the chances of getting something between the destroyer and wahoo?

whats the chances of getting something between the destroyer and wahoo?

I assume you mean an in-between speed 12? We have something in the works that will be coming out later this year probably. It will be closer to the Destroyer than the Wahoo and come in a wider weight range than the Destroyer which will allow for lower weights in driver plastic. Probably low 60s.

Dave,

Has there been a recent mold change for Star Destroyers? I've heard rumors that there were Vulcan-top Star DS's stamped with the regular Star DS stamp and shipped, and I'm pretty sure that the rumors are accurate. Actually I'm not certain about the new top being from the Vulcan but it sure does look like a different top than previous Star DS's I've thrown. Can you shed any light on this? Was the Star DS mold changed? How and why?

Thanks!

Dave,

Has there been a recent mold change for Star Destroyers? I've heard rumors that there were Vulcan-top Star DS's stamped with the regular Star DS stamp and shipped, and I'm pretty sure that the rumors are accurate. Actually I'm not certain about the new top being from the Vulcan but it sure does look like a different top than previous Star DS's I've thrown. Can you shed any light on this? Was the Star DS mold changed? How and why?

Thanks!

The recent runs have an odd cooling property. It makes it appear as if there is a mini thumtrac, when there is none. Sometimes it is more pronounced than other times. It is not a mold change.

I assume you mean an in-between speed 12? We have something in the works that will be coming out later this year probably. It will be closer to the Destroyer than the Wahoo and come in a wider weight range than the Destroyer which will allow for lower weights in driver plastic. Probably low 60s.

awesome. thats exactly what i was looking for. just a slight less overstable destroyer. will it have a smaller rim like that in the 2.2-2.4cm range?

Dave,
I figured I would check in since it has been 2 months since I asked about new disc golf courses in southern california. I called Glen Helen in Devour and they told me the disc golf course was under construction. Can you add anything to this or have you heard anything about this course? Any new info on Yucaipa or any other possible new courses poping up in the area? Please chime in with any news or rumors. thanks

awesome. thats exactly what i was looking for. just a slight less overstable destroyer. will it have a smaller rim like that in the 2.2-2.4cm range?

Rim size same as the Destroyer.

Dave,
I figured I would check in since it has been 2 months since I asked about new disc golf courses in southern california. I called Glen Helen in Devore and they told me the disc golf course was under construction. Can you add anything to this or have you heard anything about this course? Any new info on Yucaipa or any other possible new courses poping up in the area? Please chime in with any news or rumors. thanks

Glen Helen is ready to install, but we haven't gotten any word of the exact time. Should be in the next week or so. Yucaipa is on a much longer schedule. That may take into next season because of all the prep work that has to go into the land space.

The parks departments in San Bernardino County continue to be very positive about getting courses into every available space, but the realities of budgets and schedules is going to make this a long term project. I can see a dozen or more courses going in over time, but I don't know what that time frame is.

dave,

i would love to know why the mold for the champ gator has changed. I recently picked up a 175g champ gator from the west coast (i live in sc), with the european open stamp on it, and it has a rounded nose on it (which was advertised)....vs. the origional "square" nose mold. the rounded nose configuration seems to be a completely different disc! It is much more understable/domey/soft.....where as my other "sqaure nose" gators are overstable/flat/stiff. the, now billed "square nose" gator, is a mainstay in my bag, its like my firebirds fat little brother!..... I would hate to see the origional mold go oop. it almost seems as though there is a missing link the overstable mids for innova now. i'm scrambling around trying to find some square nose gators to put away for the future. why the change?

dave,

i would love to know why the mold for the champ gator has changed. I recently picked up a 175g champ gator from the west coast (i live in sc), with the european open stamp on it, and it has a rounded nose on it (which was advertised)....vs. the origional "square" nose mold. the rounded nose configuration seems to be a completely different disc! It is much more understable/domey/soft.....where as my other "sqaure nose" gators are overstable/flat/stiff. the, now billed "square nose" gator, is a mainstay in my bag, its like my firebirds fat little brother!..... I would hate to see the origional mold go oop. it almost seems as though there is a missing link the overstable mids for innova now. i'm scrambling around trying to find some square nose gators to put away for the future. why the change?

The original round nosed Gator was a mistake. We changed to the square nose and were supposed to stay.

Phew!! cancel the scramble. so, does this mean that future champ gators will be square nose (meaning the mold hasn't changed)?

Phew!! cancel the scramble. so, does this mean that future champ gators will be square nose (meaning the mold hasn't changed)?

Yes. If there is a demand for the original round nosed, we will have them in the Pro Shop.

thanks dave....you da man!

Hey Dave, is the star sl a thing of the past? I see it is not on the Innova site. If so why did they stop making it and will they bring it back? Thanks!

Hey Dave, is the star sl a thing of the past? I see it is not on the Innova site. If so why did they stop making it and will they bring it back? Thanks!

It will be back, but the mold needs repair. Not sure of the time frame.

Hey Dave, I've recently been getting into some of the older plastic; CE, Pro Line, etc., and I've gotten a pretty good grasp on their mold and plastic differences. What I am a little fuzzy on is the plastic difference between the KC Pro runs. Ever since I started disc golfing, 12x's were already released. MY QUESTION...What is the difference in the plastic, durability, and stability between the 9x, 10x, 11x, and 12x KC Pro Runs, say more specifically (if it makes it easier) with KC Pro Eagles? Thanks for the help!

Hey Dave, I've recently been getting into some of the older plastic; CE, Pro Line, etc., and I've gotten a pretty good grasp on their mold and plastic differences. What I am a little fuzzy on is the plastic difference between the KC Pro runs. Ever since I started disc golfing, 12x's were already released. MY QUESTION...What is the difference in the plastic, durability, and stability between the 9x, 10x, 11x, and 12x KC Pro Runs, say more specifically (if it makes it easier) with KC Pro Eagles? Thanks for the help!

That question is out of my league. You are going to have to ask collectors. Sorry.

Dave (or really anyone who knows),

How often are KC Aviars run in non-white colors? I've been looking for a nice black one but it seems that they are fairly rare. Any thoughts on the best way to find one?

[QUOTE=Cooper;1456802]Dave (or really anyone who knows),

How often are KC Aviars run in non-white colors? I've been looking for a nice black one but it seems that they are fairly rare. Any thoughts on the best way to find one?[/QUOT

Try discgolfvalues, Mark has a section for black discs.

Dave (or really anyone who knows),

How often are KC Aviars run in non-white colors? I've been looking for a nice black one but it seems that they are fairly rare. Any thoughts on the best way to find one?

Or you could join the San Diego Aces Disc Golf Club and request that your membership disc be a Black KC Pro Aviar. www.sandiegoaces.com (http://www.sandiegoaces.com)

Before you put your money down, you should send a message (through the site) to the Membership Director, Dan Lichtman, to make sure he still has some. He also had some purple ones...

Hey Dave,

Would the champion teebird+ tend to be more stable or less stable than the regular champion teebird?

Thanks

Hey Dave,

Would the champion teebird+ tend to be more stable or less stable than the regular champion teebird?

Thanks

depends upon the run, I suppose. I've heard both ways but have only experienced that it is about the same. The only real difference is the grip. If I hadn't heard differently, I would say the + mold is the same at high speed and a little less low speed over stable.

is it still possible to order the star beadless Gators? or are they available for tournament disc?

is it still possible to order the star beadless Gators? or are they available for tournament disc?

I don't see them on the available list, but you can ask Eric at the west coast office. He may have them available at the Factory Store.

Champion rams!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I've been throwing RAMS since 96'. Wimp introduced me to the RAM and called it the bowling ball of disc golf. A few years ago Dave Moody gave me what he believed to be a Champion Viper and asked me to compare the two disc's. I never threw it but told him I didn't think anything could be compared to a RAM. My four questions follow: Did you run Viper's in Champion plastic? Would you ever consider running RAMS in Champion plastic? If you did would they be the original mold? In your opinion, how do you think a RAM and a Champion Viper(if they exist) compare? Thank you!

I've been throwing RAMS since 96'. Wimp introduced me to the RAM and called it the bowling ball of disc golf. A few years ago Dave Moody gave me what he believed to be a Champion Viper and asked me to compare the two disc's. I never threw it but told him I didn't think anything could be compared to a RAM. My four questions follow: Did you run Viper's in Champion plastic? Would you ever consider running RAMS in Champion plastic? If you did would they be the original mold? In your opinion, how do you think a RAM and a Champion Viper(if they exist) compare? Thank you!

We did run Champion Vipers a few years ago. Not many. The Ram mold is the same as it was the last runs we did. I don't remember if it had any modifications from the original run. We would consider running Rams in Champion for the Factory Store.

I don't know if I could compare a Champion Viper to a Ram accurately. It's been too long since I've thrown a Ram. Both are in a similar niche. The Viper is a little faster and the Ram a little more over stable.

so whats up with the factory store anyway?

also, what other plastics are planned for the vulcan?

so whats up with the factory store anyway?

also, what other plastics are planned for the vulcan?

The store should open this month. The Vulcan will be made in Star, Champion, and Pro. No plans for R-Pro or Dx as yet.

I'd like to come up to this factory store. Where will it be located ?

Thanks in Advance !

Donny Olow
donnyotime@yahoo.com

I'd like to come up to this factory store. Where will it be located ?

Thanks in Advance !

Donny Olow
donnyotime@yahoo.com

It will share the building with Herodisc, but it won't be open to the public probably til next year when the sales offices move to Ontario. Until that time, everything will be on line.

I was wondering if the mold for Champion Sidewinders had changed recently. I saw a new one at KOTL in Tahoe and the inside rim seemed to be angled out instead of directly down from the flight plate. If the disc were upside down and you were looking at the rim what use to look like this _l is now _/ . Sorry if this had been discussed earlier but after a few pages I gave up searching.

Just out of curiosity, although I'm sure this question has been asked plenty of times on here, but I was wondering why the old CE plastic was discontinued. I love the feel of the plastic and the durability of it. I use my CE Valk, Eagle and Teebird the most out of anything in my bag and love the consistency of it.

Thanks!

I was wondering if the mold for Champion Sidewinders had changed recently. I saw a new one at KOTL in Tahoe and the inside rim seemed to be angled out instead of directly down from the flight plate. If the disc were upside down and you were looking at the rim what use to look like this _l is now _/ . Sorry if this had been discussed earlier but after a few pages I gave up searching.

Sidewinder Plus maybe? I know the plus molds of the Roc and Teebird have angled rims like that. Just an idea but I wouldn't quote me on it lol

I was wondering if the mold for Champion Sidewinders had changed recently. I saw a new one at KOTL in Tahoe and the inside rim seemed to be angled out instead of directly down from the flight plate. If the disc were upside down and you were looking at the rim what use to look like this _l is now _/ . Sorry if this had been discussed earlier but after a few pages I gave up searching.

Possibly made with a different mold bottom or different material, but not a + mold. Those are only on Rocs, TeeBirds, and Eagles.

Just out of curiosity, although I'm sure this question has been asked plenty of times on here, but I was wondering why the old CE plastic was discontinued. I love the feel of the plastic and the durability of it. I use my CE Valk, Eagle and Teebird the most out of anything in my bag and love the consistency of it.

Thanks!

The old CE plastic was and is no longer available.

The old CE plastic was and is no longer available.

Obviously. I understand that but I was wondering why you stopped producing the plastic.

So Innova just changes a mold bottom and sells it as the same disc with out even telling anyone, including you? Strange.

Obviously. I understand that but I was wondering why you stopped producing the plastic.

Innova just molds the plastic. They actually buy it from producers.

Just out of curiosity, although I'm sure this question has been asked plenty of times on here, but I was wondering why the old CE plastic was discontinued. I love the feel of the plastic and the durability of it. I use my CE Valk, Eagle and Teebird the most out of anything in my bag and love the consistency of it.

Thanks!

over at marshall street disc golf's site they are stating that they heard the reason was because the CE plastic was 'too durable'! even quoting a discraft rep as saying that innova was 'out of their minds' (or something close to that) for introducing CE plastic! basically saying that innova would never make any money on discs that never wore out!

i find this hard too believe, but it is on their site, under one of the discs descriptions, i forget which one. they even name the discraft rep!

dave, can you put this rumor to rest!

Dave has put this rumor to rest multiple times. People are just too lazy to use the search button.

People are just too lazy to use the search button.

incorrect assumption; did do a search. far too many word variables involved to get a coherent, definitive response.

your 2 cents however, is much appreciated.

incorrect assumption; did do a search. far too many word variables involved to get a coherent, definitive response.

your 2 cents however, is much appreciated.

I find it funny when people feel the need to cry about the search aspect. I did search. Hence why I came here to ask Dave why Innova stopped making CE plastic.

I find it funny when people feel the need to cry about the search aspect. I did search. Hence why I came here to ask Dave why Innova stopped making CE plastic.

look back at post #9064 (http://www.pdga.com/discussion/showpost.php?p=1359755&postcount=9064) , I searched "CE Plastic" under equipment by davei

I'm not Dave D but have an opinion on why CE type plastic was discontinued by the polymer manufacturer (not by the molder Dave D at innova).
Typically injection molding companies in the US ( in order to make profit and be competitive) would want to be able to run parts as fast as possible, That particular type of TPU material took very long to set up. A disc made with current TPU ( champion, star, Evolution) usually takes about 40-60 seconds to be molded and demolded, where it is then set on a table for an additional 5 -6 minutes to cool.

We ran a similar style of plastic ( which we called nike spirits) that took nearly 3 minutes to set up,,,, meaning that at the end of an 8 hour shift instead of having 500 or so discs you would only have 160 ( thats if they were all good parts), and this particular type of urethane also produced lots of short shots ( bad parts) because it was also extremely difficult to mold through the .070 thick flight plate into a 1" triangular rim because of low flow rates. I heard from one innova molder that most of the CE discs were red, most likely do to the fact that the red colorant probably helped increase flow rates .

Since this material was so hard to mold ( not just by disc makers but most who used it) and often took up to 3 times as long to make a part, the polymer manufacturing company probably changed their formulation to be more competitive with the fast changing world of TPU development.

All in all there are about 40 different TPUs that could be used alone or blended together to produce HIGH END golf discs. I'd say the current Star discs are every bit as durable as the CE stuff and in my opinion are better engineered through formulations by Dave D to meet the requirements needed to achieve the right flex, surface feel (and whats most important,,,, )flight characteristic, for each specific model its molded.

does this sound accurate dave D?

I'm not Dave D but have an opinion on why CE type plastic was discontinued by the polymer manufacturer (not by the molder Dave D at innova).
Typically injection molding companies in the US ( in order to make profit and be competitive) would want to be able to run parts as fast as possible, That particular type of TPU material took very long to set up. A disc made with current TPU ( champion, star, Evolution) usually takes about 40-60 seconds to be molded and demolded, where it is then set on a table for an additional 5 -6 minutes to cool.

We ran a similar style of plastic ( which we called nike spirits) that took nearly 3 minutes to set up,,,, meaning that at the end of an 8 hour shift instead of having 500 or so discs you would only have 160 ( thats if they were all good parts), and this particular type of urethane also produced lots of short shots ( bad parts) because it was also extremely difficult to mold through the .070 thick flight plate into a 1" triangular rim because of low flow rates. I heard from one innova molder that most of the CE discs were red, most likely do to the fact that the red colorant probably helped increase flow rates .

Since this material was so hard to mold ( not just by disc makers but most who used it) and often took up to 3 times as long to make a part, the polymer manufacturing company probably changed their formulation to be more competitive with the fast changing world of TPU development.

All in all there are about 40 different TPUs that could be used alone or blended together to produce HIGH END golf discs. I'd say the current Star discs are every bit as durable as the CE stuff and in my opinion are better engineered through formulations by Dave D to meet the requirements needed to achieve the right flex, surface feel (and whats most important,,,, )flight characteristic, for each specific model its molded.

does this sound accurate dave D?

I wish I could get a 40 sec cycle. Ours are more like 50-80 seconds. That particular plastic didn't take much more than 60 seconds, so it wasn't that, but I'm sure they had some reason or just couldn't make it anymore. We have manufacturer's changes in materials all the time that we don't want changed. Nothing we can do about it other than shop around for materials. Most of the slight mold changes we make are an effort to keep our discs flying or molding the same with the changing plastics. Also, there are many more urethane plastics than 40. When you add all the variations, it's well over 400. I know one manufacturer who has over 40, so it's a maze. The sales people you talk to trying to get suitable plastic don't know what they are talking about most of the time so the only way to find plastic is to get samples and test it. You can't trust the numbers or the sales people.

And you're right about the mixing to get the right flex, feel, and flight. Rarely do we use just one type of plastic for a run.

We have the ability to get custom made plastics and it still comes out wrong most of the time. A bit frustrating.

I'd say the current Star discs are every bit as durable as the CE stuff

You must hit your lines instead of trees. IMO Star is no where near the durability, and trust me I hit tons of trees. :D

@gdstour and daveD

thank you both for the little tid bit on plastics and molding. i do find it interesting.


You must hit your lines instead of trees. IMO Star is no where near the durability, and trust me I hit tons of trees. :D

which run of CE are you discussing? if its the transparent runs then you are basically throwing Champ/candy plastic. if its opaque its more 'pro-ish' type plastic if i remember correctly and actually wears in quite fast. When i started playing is when the last 2 (maybe 3) runs were made. So i mostly threw the CE (pre candy plastic) and i believe the 3rd run (these were the last opaque ones i think) back then.
im no collector or CE expert but i have thrown every run on CE in Valks, teebirds, and eagles when they were new to the scene. so my rund numbers are most likely wrong.


@dave D
i have noticed as i start to replace some of my lost/beat to hell star discs from 5-6yrs ago that the plastic feels a great deal different. i know some slight changes have happened but i am most interested in the feel. the older star seems to feel 'drier' (i have no idea how else to explain it) and has a rougher grip so to say. the new stuff feels more slick and seems to hold more moisture. during the summer months i have really began to notice this with grip lock issues. the old 'dry' star never presented these issues for me. any chance you could explain the difference? if it is based on moisture does that mean there is enough variance to were i would be able to find ones with the drier feel?

if it helps, examples of the drier feel, that you can use as a time period reference, would be the bar stamp SOLF 1.0s i guess you could call them. first run and first standard run of teerexes.

@gdstour and daveD

@dave D
i have noticed as i start to replace some of my lost/beat to hell star discs from 5-6yrs ago that the plastic feels a great deal different. i know some slight changes have happened but i am most interested in the feel. the older star seems to feel 'drier' (i have no idea how else to explain it) and has a rougher grip so to say. the new stuff feels more slick and seems to hold more moisture. during the summer months i have really began to notice this with grip lock issues. the old 'dry' star never presented these issues for me. any chance you could explain the difference? if it is based on moisture does that mean there is enough variance to were i would be able to find ones with the drier feel?

if it helps, examples of the drier feel, that you can use as a time period reference, would be the bar stamp SOLF 1.0s i guess you could call them. first run and first standard run of teerexes.

I'm not sure what feeling you are referring to but it might relate to the particular batch of plastic. Most of the stuff we are making right now feels pretty grippy to me, but I have noticed a slick feeling a couple of years ago, and from time to time. I really don't know what causes it but it is not the usual. I do know that if your Champ and Star discs feel slick, you can wipe them with Windex wipes and they will feel just fine. That tells me that there is something on the surface. That "something" might be dust or something exuding from the plastic itself. Occasionally, we have color bleeding out that not only gets on hands, but makes the disc feel weird too, so things can bleed out of the plastic.

Dave, I have become a fan of the classic aviar with no bead, and I keep hearing conflicting information from different people comparing the aviar putt and approach (P&A) to the classic aviar. It seems that the majority are claiming that the P&A used to be small bead, but that it is now no bead, and therefore identical to the classic aviar, which would make the innova chart flight numbers wrong for the P&A. Others would have me believe that the classic aviar and P&A are each run in small bead and in no bead, and what you get when you place an order is a bit of a crap shoot. Will you please settle the debate for me, and maybe shed some light on where people get these ideas?

Dave, I have become a fan of the classic aviar with no bead, and I keep hearing conflicting information from different people comparing the aviar putt and approach (P&A) to the classic aviar. It seems that the majority are claiming that the P&A used to be small bead, but that it is now no bead, and therefore identical to the classic aviar, which would make the innova chart flight numbers wrong for the P&A. Others would have me believe that the classic aviar and P&A are each run in small bead and in no bead, and what you get when you place an order is a bit of a crap shoot. Will you please settle the debate for me, and maybe shed some light on where people get these ideas?

The Classic Aviars and the P&A are both no bead now. The Classic was originally no bead. The P&A was originally no bead too, then was small bead for a number of years. They are both back to original. The difference is the material they are made with. The P&A is made with a softer material and the Classic is made with a firm to very firm material. The numbers reflect the material differences, but don't always match the exact run. Classics make better drivers than the P&A. We no longer offer any small bead Aviars. However, Millenium does.

I'm not sure what feeling you are referring to but it might relate to the particular batch of plastic. Most of the stuff we are making right now feels pretty grippy to me, but I have noticed a slick feeling a couple of years ago, and from time to time. I really don't know what causes it but it is not the usual. I do know that if your Champ and Star discs feel slick, you can wipe them with Windex wipes and they will feel just fine. That tells me that there is something on the surface. That "something" might be dust or something exuding from the plastic itself. Occasionally, we have color bleeding out that not only gets on hands, but makes the disc feel weird too, so things can bleed out of the plastic.

dave, glad you mentioned the slickness of the previous star plastic runs. thats exactly why i quit throwing star plastic, because i couldnt get a consistent grip from the beginning of a round to the end as the fatigue factor set in. i was able to throw a friends' archon in the new star plastic and it felt much "grippier", or less slick than the older runs of star plastic, so i may go back to buying your star plastic if thats the case.
as far as the grip issue goes, you would probably have to look at several factors affecting that, one i think is from one person to the next, their body chemistry is different. some people have oily skin, which may help with slicker plastic. i have very dry skin, and live in an area where 20% humidity is high, so that slick plastic just doesnt work for me. someone living in the deep south like georgia with a different body chemistry may just love that slick plastic.
i know you cant please everyone with what you offer, but thank you for all the different options that are available from innova. btw, i will have to try that windex thing on my discs to see if it makes a difference.

incorrect assumption; did do a search. far too many word variables involved to get a coherent, definitive response.

your 2 cents however, is much appreciated.

Have to agree with you here Captain America. The search feature seems worthless.

dave, glad you mentioned the slickness of the previous star plastic runs. thats exactly why i quit throwing star plastic, because i couldnt get a consistent grip from the beginning of a round to the end as the fatigue factor set in. i was able to throw a friends' archon in the new star plastic and it felt much "grippier", or less slick than the older runs of star plastic, so i may go back to buying your star plastic if thats the case.
as far as the grip issue goes, you would probably have to look at several factors affecting that, one i think is from one person to the next, their body chemistry is different. some people have oily skin, which may help with slicker plastic. i have very dry skin, and live in an area where 20% humidity is high, so that slick plastic just doesnt work for me. someone living in the deep south like georgia with a different body chemistry may just love that slick plastic.
i know you cant please everyone with what you offer, but thank you for all the different options that are available from innova. btw, i will have to try that windex thing on my discs to see if it makes a difference.

I haven't checked which products specifically have been named to be legal for tournament play out of grip enhancers. So i don't know about the legality of applying bees wax but it is a natural product that has been used for skin care so it makes your skin better while providing grip to below freezing conditions.

Finnish competition season started on January 2nd in IIRC about -12 C in the morning going to about -10 C later. I wish i had applied bees wax to non grippy discs. I wasn't the only one who stood upright and had the snow surface up to navel in the worst places :-D

The Classic Aviars and the P&A are both no bead now. The Classic was originally no bead. The P&A was originally no bead too, then was small bead for a number of years. They are both back to original. The difference is the material they are made with. The P&A is made with a softer material and the Classic is made with a firm to very firm material. The numbers reflect the material differences, but don't always match the exact run. Classics make better drivers than the P&A. We no longer offer any small bead Aviars. However, Millenium does.

Thanks for the clarification. If I understand the numbers correctly, the P&A is listed as a bit more stable than the classic aviar, but I would have thought that the more stable putters would make better drivers than the less stable ones. Am i missing something?

dave, glad you mentioned the slickness of the previous star plastic runs. thats exactly why i quit throwing star plastic, because i couldnt get a consistent grip from the beginning of a round to the end as the fatigue factor set in. i was able to throw a friends' archon in the new star plastic and it felt much "grippier", or less slick than the older runs of star plastic, so i may go back to buying your star plastic if thats the case.
as far as the grip issue goes, you would probably have to look at several factors affecting that, one i think is from one person to the next, their body chemistry is different. some people have oily skin, which may help with slicker plastic. i have very dry skin, and live in an area where 20% humidity is high, so that slick plastic just doesnt work for me. someone living in the deep south like georgia with a different body chemistry may just love that slick plastic.

I resemble that remark! :)

See you at Halloween in the greatest city in the world?

I resemble that remark! :)

See you at Halloween in the greatest city in the world?

see you at worlds first. :)

When are star apes scheduled for release or cfr dave?

dave,
have you had the chance to read the PM concerning flat top champion rocs? steve wisecup over on FB has said that some have been made - can you update the status?

thanks!

When are star apes scheduled for release or cfr dave?

They haven't been scheduled yet, but are coming up for a second run. After we do that, we will probably run Star.

dave,
have you had the chance to read the PM concerning flat top champion rocs? steve wisecup over on FB has said that some have been made - can you update the status?

thanks!

Yes, I did read it. Steve was not supposed to say anything about those. They are scheduled for release at USDGC this year. They are firm and relatively low profile. I don't think they are particularly over stable at low speed, but are nice and stable at high speed.

see you at worlds first. :)

Yes you will! - Hopefully we will both play well and end up on the same card and I can show you up close and personal how far Star plastic designed by Dave Dunipace flies. :)

See how I tied it back into the thread?

Dave - Can you please tell us what disc we will see released at PRO Worlds, or should we just ask Steve? :)

Dave - question for you in previous post, in case you missed it thinking I was just responding to Martin.

Keith

Dave - question for you in previous post, in case you missed it thinking I was just responding to Martin.

Keith

It's either some type of Archon or some type of Roc, I believe, but not the same as the USDGC Roc.

It's either some type of Archon or some type of Roc, I believe, but not the same as the USDGC Roc.

Thanks for the reply Dave,
I vote Archon for pros - Am's could better use the Roc. :)

The store should open this month. The Vulcan will be made in Star, Champion, and Pro. No plans for R-Pro or Dx as yet.

any schedule for the pro vulcans?

any schedule for the pro vulcans?


Not yet.

Have the R Pro Coupe's been run?

Hi Dave,

I saw a disc yesterday I have never seen. My buddy Robin showed me a Pebble. He said they werent made because of materials, but with the addition of R=Pro as an additive, could this be a disc we see again for retail? Thank You Sir.

Have the R Pro Coupe's been run?

Yes.

Hi Dave,

I saw a disc yesterday I have never seen. My buddy Robin showed me a Pebble. He said they werent made because of materials, but with the addition of R=Pro as an additive, could this be a disc we see again for retail? Thank You Sir.

The only disc we made that we referred to as a "Pebble" was the Classic Roc in a non weighted DX material. We still make them from time to time but there is not much of a demand. They were originally used for MTA. The Pebble weighed about 95 grams, I believe. Pebbles will be in the Factory Store when we make them, but also can be ordered when in stock. I don't know if we are currently stocking them.

Thanks Dave. His came out of a Roc x-out box from the East Coast I think. It actually has the Pebble sticker on the bottom. It had a really high dome for a Classic, and was very light. I would like to get some, we got alot of people into overalls and that stuff here.

Thanks Dave. His came out of a Roc x-out box from the East Coast I think. It actually has the Pebble sticker on the bottom. It had a really high dome for a Classic, and was very light. I would like to get some, we got alot of people into overalls and that stuff here.

Our most often used MTA disc was a light Lynx or light domey Condor. Also regular light weight rocs are about 113gms. The Pebble was very good if you could throw a clean technique back door style. I did and set a Masters record with it (since broken by Jim Herrick)

Our most often used MTA disc was a light Lynx or light domey Condor. Also regular light weight rocs are about 113gms. The Pebble was very good if you could throw a clean technique back door style. I did and set a Masters record with it (since broken by Jim Herrick)


Thanks Dave, I appreciate the insight and will pass the info on..

Dave,

how come you only post on this site? It seems like you are reaching a very limited number of people. DGCR and DGR are hugely more popular and have all the non-tourny forum hounds on them. i know that they would really appreciate it if they didnt have to be members to ask you questions on a forum board and kep your email a lil more empty.

Dave,

how come you only post on this site? It seems like you are reaching a very limited number of people. DGCR and DGR are hugely more popular and have all the non-tourny forum hounds on them. i know that they would really appreciate it if they didnt have to be members to ask you questions on a forum board and kep your email a lil more empty.

I started on this forum when it was open and more popular. Just continued. I also answer questions through askdave@innovadiscs.com. I have tried to keep up with the other forums, but it is a little too much with my other duties.

i can definitely see that. the other forums are super busy

are any of the current aviars (including the Omegas and Discmania lines) in the old san marino mold? if not, would the factory store be able to run them?

i can definitely see that. the other forums are super busy

are any of the current aviars (including the Omegas and Discmania lines) in the old san marino mold? if not, would the factory store be able to run them?

Both of the old San Marino molds are still being used but have had some work done on them to keep them running. I don't think the engraving is still the same.

^^^which aviars would be in that mold then? arent the P&As in the classic mold now?

^^^which aviars would be in that mold then? arent the P&As in the classic mold now?

Yes, P&As are in the Classic mold, but it is not the original Classic. It has been remade. Some of the old parts wore out.

cool thank you

dave, has there been any talk on valarie jenkins having a signature disc out? it would just seem natural with all her championships and victories i would think. no offense to jay reading but it seems like val would have been the next to have something with her name on it.

also, does will shusterick have a signature disc in the works?

thanks.

dave, has there been any talk on valarie jenkins having a signature disc out? it would just seem natural with all her championships and victories i would think. no offense to jay reading but it seems like val would have been the next to have something with her name on it.

also, does will shusterick have a signature disc in the works?

thanks.

I would rather not discuss signature discs as there tends to be a lot of upset when one player gets one and others don't.

dave, has there been any talk on valarie jenkins having a signature disc out? it would just seem natural with all her championships and victories i would think. no offense to jay reading but it seems like val would have been the next to have something with her name on it.

also, does will shusterick have a signature disc in the works?

thanks.


What about Jay Readings Wife? I basically begged ( along with others ) for Des to get her sig disc after 3 World Championships. Heres the truth nobody wants to talk about.....

.....discs with Womens names on them dont sell as well. This may be more my opinion than proven fact, and I mean no offense, but after close to 10 years selling plastic it may as well be fact. Most people buying discs are rec players, most are men, and they honestly think that its a girls disc. Ive been through it about 5k times. Also, to help my arguement, sales of Champion Valks have probably doubled for us since Julianas name isnt on there anymore, and Star Valks also have went up the last few years since Sandstroms name started showing up. Just saying.

Again, I mean no offense. I think they all deserve it and should have it.

You know, I have noticed some pickup in sells of Valks recently....never really thought about it being because of the name on it.

Just to play devils advocate....I do sell a lot of JK aviars.

Dear Dave,

May we ask for yet another update on the Innova factory store?

Also, does Innova have any kind of written policy or standard practice regarding people custom stamping or dyeing and selling Innova discs?

Thank-you,
jenb

Why is it that the Eagle L doesn't have its own spot on the Innova website. There are specs for the TL, SL, but no EL? They also aren't labeled as an EL on the actual disc. Whats up? Also has there ever been an attempt at other -L discs. Will we ever see a Leopard-L or something?

Why is it that the Eagle L doesn't have its own spot on the Innova website. There are specs for the TL, SL, but no EL? They also aren't labeled as an EL on the actual disc. Whats up? Also has there ever been an attempt at other -L discs. Will we ever see a Leopard-L or something?

Monster-L

Dear Dave,

May we ask for yet another update on the Innova factory store?

Also, does Innova have any kind of written policy or standard practice regarding people custom stamping or dyeing and selling Innova discs?

Thank-you,
jenb

I was told that the Store was ready to open. Not sure why it isn't, if it isn't. We have a standard practice of reserving the right to refuse to stamp something we feel is inappropriate. We rarely sell unhotstamped discs for dying or hotstamping and when we do, we reserve the same rights. Controlling third parties from removing and restamping or dying discs, is much more difficult.

Why is it that the Eagle L doesn't have its own spot on the Innova website. There are specs for the TL, SL, but no EL? They also aren't labeled as an EL on the actual disc. Whats up? Also has there ever been an attempt at other -L discs. Will we ever see a Leopard-L or something?

There wasn't enough demand for Eagle Ls, so they will be relegated to small quantities available in the Factory Store, when we can get to them. I doubt that we will make any more discs called L. A Leopard is an L type disc.

When will the online store for the "factory store" be open? I am ready to purchase some great discs?

When will the online store for the "factory store" be open? I am ready to purchase some great discs?

Looking foward to buying some Coupe's and other classic discs.

I doubt that we will make any more discs called L.

Dave,

Do you mean to say that the TL will be going out of production?

Thanks

Dave,

Do you mean to say that the TL will be going out of production?

Thanks

We will continue with the TL and SL, and possibly the FL, but no new L
additions.

So what's the scoop on the TeeDevil? Did the DevilHawk escape from it's cage and copulate with a Teebird?? The name makes me think PD (longer with Teebird like characteristics.)

Can't wait to see one!... unless it's a Vulcan/Detroyer then I can wait :p

What would the flight numbers be on the TeeDevil and possible release date?

I got a lucky pickup in a used bin at a local course. The disc is a white first run champion spider. Broken in but still in good shape. I'm just wondering if you have any idea what its worth. I've heard estimates from $40 to $80.

What would the flight numbers be on the TeeDevil and possible release date?

Still too early for a release date. We have preliminary numbers at `12,5,-2,2,
which makes it sound like a Wahoo, but it is much more high speed stable than that. It is not as high speed stable as a Destroyer, but it is closer to a Destroyer than a Wahoo.

Champion TeeDevils should be available for fundraisers soon, but the release will be Star probably late this year.

I got a lucky pickup in a used bin at a local course. The disc is a white first run champion spider. Broken in but still in good shape. I'm just wondering if you have any idea what its worth. I've heard estimates from $40 to $80.

Sorry, no clue.

I got a lucky pickup in a used bin at a local course. The disc is a white first run champion spider. Broken in but still in good shape. I'm just wondering if you have any idea what its worth. I've heard estimates from $40 to $80.

With mini Proto Star stamp I assume? Depending on the condition, eBay wise - probably $25-$30 tops.

Still too early for a release date. We have preliminary numbers at `12,5,-2,2,
which makes it sound like a Wahoo, but it is much more high speed stable than that. It is not as high speed stable as a Destroyer, but it is closer to a Destroyer than a Wahoo.

Champion TeeDevils should be available for fundraisers soon, but the release will be Star probably late this year.

Thanks for the info. So, a fast Archon maybe?

Thanks for the info. So, a fast Archon maybe?

Yes, and a little more high speed stable in the wind.

With mini Proto Star stamp I assume? Depending on the condition, eBay wise - probably $25-$30 tops.

New/Mint 50-65
Used, 25-35

So the above estimate is definitely accurate!

40 to 80 is crazy talk.

Still too early for a release date. We have preliminary numbers at `12,5,-2,2,
which makes it sound like a Wahoo, but it is much more high speed stable than that. It is not as high speed stable as a Destroyer, but it is closer to a Destroyer than a Wahoo.

Champion TeeDevils should be available for fundraisers soon, but the release will be Star probably late this year.

Do you know the rim width and the inside height of the rim?

Do you know the rim width and the inside height of the rim?

PDGA has it listed as 1.2 for rim depth and 2.4 for thickness. I didn't measure it.

Dave,

Thanks for the info. What hole in the lineup were you trying to fill with this disc? What situations is this disc going to be useful in? Is it just a slightly less stable DS? I'm just wondering why you decided to release this particular mold.

Thanks!

Dave,

Thanks for the info. What hole in the lineup were you trying to fill with this disc? What situations is this disc going to be useful in? Is it just a slightly less stable DS? I'm just wondering why you decided to release this particular mold.

Thanks!

well, i can say why im excited for it, not sure for others. i personally dont like the destroyer much brand new, i like it after it gets beat in a lil bit because it allows me to have a bit more control over the disc flight. so i would imagine this is more meant for the middle power player. where as the wahoo is lower power and the destroyer 'higher' power.
alot of the people who like the Westside Sword are probably really going to like the TeeDevil. Plus its a sweet name on a disc.

well, i can say why im excited for it, not sure for others. i personally dont like the destroyer much brand new, i like it after it gets beat in a lil bit because it allows me to have a bit more control over the disc flight. so i would imagine this is more meant for the middle power player. where as the wahoo is lower power and the destroyer 'higher' power.
alot of the people who like the Westside Sword are probably really going to like the TeeDevil. Plus its a sweet name on a disc.

Couldn't have said it better myself. Thanks.

Dave:

A question about "old mold" Champion Beasts. I found one of these through a trade with a friend, and loved the disc (all the way in to a deep pond). Now, I'm looking to replace it. I understand that the tooling for the beast was changed at some point in the past.

So, here we go with the question(s).

Are all "Barry Schultz" Beasts "new mold"?
Are "new mold" Beasts ever stamped without the Schultz signature nowadays? (i.e. are all non-Schultz stamped Champ Beast manufactured prior to him getting this signature disc?).
Were there non-Schultz beasts made from the "new mold" prior to his getting the signature disc?

Thanks,
Mark

I'm pretty sure the 1x Barry Beasts were the old mold, and part of the first run of 2x Barry Beasts were old mold.

pro line beast - old mold
pre barry champ beast - old mold
1x barry beast - old mold
2x barry beast - old mold first run, then switched to new mold ever since

good answer^

I believe the store is open at proshop.innovadiscs.com

just tried to add some nice test pro bb aviars... must have missed out on them, as I tried to check out and order was cancelled.

Erick

Dave, I have to tell you how pleased I am to see the Factory Store open. Not only did they have the discs I wanted in a plastic that was 'never made', but the customer service is excellent.

Thank you again :)

Just ordered 2 Pro Coupe's from the Factory Store. Would like to see the older stamps or something new.

Those Champion Classic Hammers are a great approach and short drive disc. I hope you continue to make them available, at least as a limited release.

Dave, the "Factory Store" Pro Coupe's have recieved a big bead (the originals are beadless). When did you tweak the mold, was it just for this run?

Dave, the "Factory Store" Pro Coupe's have recieved a big bead (the originals are beadless). When did you tweak the mold, was it just for this run?

It's just a variation that should have more durability than the beadless kind. We can still make beadless too. Probably should have, but didn't think of that at the time.

The original Coupe seemed to be made in a "candy" like plastic. Was it an experiment?

The original Coupe seemed to be made in a "candy" like plastic. Was it an experiment?

It was the first R-Pro type plastic along with some of the red Hammers.

Any chance that you've got some Star XDs coming to the factory store? My Star XD is my go to disc for anything under 200' in the woods and I NEED ANOTHER ONE!!!

Although, I'll probably buy 10 if you have them.

Any chance that you've got some Star XDs coming to the factory store? My Star XD is my go to disc for anything under 200' in the woods and I NEED ANOTHER ONE!!!

Although, I'll probably buy 10 if you have them.

Definitely at some point in time along with Star Classic Rocs.

dave,

any idea when destroyers will be run in their original dome again instead of the vulcan top?

dave,

any idea when destroyers will be run in their original dome again instead of the vulcan top?

I got a star boss the other day that seemed to have the vulcan top too, very odd

I got a star boss the other day that seemed to have the vulcan top too, very odd

Same top. The look is an artifact of the particular material we had at the time.

Same top. The look is an artifact of the particular material we had at the time.

and what about the destroyer?

and what about the destroyer?
Same thing. I don't know why you describe them as looking like Vulcans. To me, they look more like the Discmania discs.

How happy are you that Congress recently passed the law that makes it possible for you to keep marking discs with expired patent numbers? Assuming your lawyers give you the go ahead soon, is there any chance we'll start seeing patent numbers reappearing on discs? In other words, do you have some old molds hidden in your sock drawer that haven't seen use lately because of the marking issue, and could be put back into service?

Dave,

Is there any possibility of Innova running KC Aviars in the old mold with the patent number on it again? That would be great.

Dave,

Is there any possibility of Innova running KC Aviars in the old mold with the patent number on it again? That would be great.


No. We still use the old mold and it no longer has a number on it. We have taken the number off most all of the old molds.

Dave,

The recent super-flat run of Firebirds in the Champion Glow plastic have been really popular in my area. Is there any chance we might see a run of flat-top X-Mold Monsters in the Champion Glow plastic?

I have several green star Excalibers with the first run star stamp. The green color is the same as the early echo plastic, but the back just has the handwritten star (no echo sticker). Are these "echo" plastic, and if yes are the first runs worth more than the $20 I paid for them when they first came out?

Dave,

The recent super-flat run of Firebirds in the Champion Glow plastic have been really popular in my area. Is there any chance we might see a run of flat-top X-Mold Monsters in the Champion Glow plastic?


Possibly. You might want to put a request to Eric at the Factory Store.

I have several green star Excalibers with the first run star stamp. The green color is the same as the early echo plastic, but the back just has the handwritten star (no echo sticker). Are these "echo" plastic, and if yes are the first runs worth more than the $20 I paid for them when they first came out?

Echo is usually denoted on the back, whether or not there is a sticker. The recent runs have not had stickers.

I don't know what one run is worth versus any other. Sorry.

When will Champion Vulcans become a stock item?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/INNOVA-BUTTERSCOTCH-CE-EAGLE-MINT-RARE-OOP-PROTOTYPE-CHAMPION-EDITION-/290608426182?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43a99cacc6


Hi Dave. I know your not into the collectors, but do you think this is an accurate disc description? Based off this stamp and the era wouldnt it be more likely this is an SE plastic disc? I ask as I recently held a Teebird with the same plastic being sold as CE and it clearly wasnt CE plastic, but the SE plastic.

Im not out to hurt the sellers auction or anything like that, and am not trying to put you in a position where you do the same. Im just asking about the timeline of that stamp vs. when CE started making it into discs.

.

When will Champion Vulcans become a stock item?

Some time later this year, I believe.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/INNOVA-BUTTERSCOTCH-CE-EAGLE-MINT-RARE-OOP-PROTOTYPE-CHAMPION-EDITION-/290608426182?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43a99cacc6


Hi Dave. I know your not into the collectors, but do you think this is an accurate disc description? Based off this stamp and the era wouldnt it be more likely this is an SE plastic disc? I ask as I recently held a Teebird with the same plastic being sold as CE and it clearly wasnt CE plastic, but the SE plastic.

Im not out to hurt the sellers auction or anything like that, and am not trying to put you in a position where you do the same. Im just asking about the timeline of that stamp vs. when CE started making it into discs.

.

It may be an accurate description, but just from the picture, it doesn't even look like anything but DX. The fog line around the rim is more characteristic of DX rather than SE or CE. But that said, I really don't know one way or another.

It may be an accurate description, but just from the picture, it doesn't even look like anything but DX. The fog line around the rim is more characteristic of DX rather than SE or CE. But that said, I really don't know one way or another.


Okay, I appreciate your insight. Thanks Again Dave.

Dave,

I was wondering if an Echo Aviar might be in the works at the innova magic shop??? Personaly, i think it would be a nice complement to the echo line.

Jay

Hey Dave,

Now that the new USDGC Champion Rancho Rocs have been released and sold to Partners through DGU, could you please give us your take on why they might be considered special compared to past runs?

thanks,

Mike

Dave,

I was wondering if an Echo Aviar might be in the works at the innova magic shop??? Personaly, i think it would be a nice complement to the echo line.

Jay

They may be available now. At any rate, we will have them from time to time.

Hey Dave,

Now that the new USDGC Champion Rancho Rocs have been released and sold to Partners through DGU, could you please give us your take on why they might be considered special compared to past runs?

thanks,

Mike

Firmest and flattest run in many years. Also very good looking, however I was told to keep the variety down for some reason.

The "team" specific disc feels very much like a stiff 2003 mold, that fly similarly to the overstable Glow Kenny 4x Champ Rocs.

Maybe JP wanted to "get back to basics" and concentrate on what players/throwers and collectors wanted?

Either way, thank you for these discs.

Firmest and flattest run in many years. Also very good looking, however I was told to keep the variety down for some reason.

I haven't seen any yet because they won't be shipped until after the USDGC but I did hear from several Team Members who have them that they definitely were firm but not necessarily flat. As for the variety, are they all say, yellow 180g?

I haven't seen any yet because they won't be shipped until after the USDGC but I did hear from several Team Members who have them that they definitely were firm but not necessarily flat. As for the variety, are they all say, yellow 180g?

I'm not sure if the team has these yet or not. Most are definitely heavy, but there are several colors, not a lot though, and few tweeners.

hey dave, i was just looking at some of my old discs and ran across a couple of 2002 US Masters Gazelles. It got me thinking about what type of plastic they are. I am thinking theses are CE but I may be off by a year or so when the Champ plastic came out. Could you clarify this for me please? Thanks

hey dave, i was just looking at some of my old discs and ran across a couple of 2002 US Masters Gazelles. It got me thinking about what type of plastic they are. I am thinking theses are CE but I may be off by a year or so when the Champ plastic came out. Could you clarify this for me please? Thanks

Those are the "taffy" Gazelles that all weigh about 160g. They are grippier than the standard slick CE plastic of the time. I think Dave was playing around with the formula to get better grip, better light weight production, and better "manufacture-ability" out of the plastic. There were some gummy 150 CE Valks that came out around that time, too, although they weren't stamped for U.S. Masters.

The purple Gazelles fade in the sunlight and eventually turn a "dirty clear". They don't return to purple after fading.

There were Gazelles, Rhynos, and Aeros in that plastic for U.S. Masters in 2002, as well as Classic Rocs in the same plastic as the 2002 USDGC Rancho Rocs.

Plus there were 50 yellow CE Aviars from the 2001 run using the same plastic as the 2001 USDGC Rocs. They found a 100-pack of the Aviars in the warehouse and stamped half with the 2002 U.S. Masters logo and half with a Texas tourney, worlds maybe? In any event, the yellow 2002 USM Aviars are the same run as the 2001s.

thanks for the info!

Hey Dave,

I have a suggestion. You should develop a disc that feels like a Roc in hand that is also a large diameter mid, but is understable like a stingray.

If you think about people love throwing seasoned rocs, so why not market to those people with an out of the box flippy roc in DX and KC plastic.

What do you think?

Dave,

Do you know how many Glow KC Rocs you guys just ran? Also are you planning on future runs of these for CFR?

Thanks