Will the Dart be made in other plastics as well or only the new R-Pro?

Will the Dart be made in other plastics as well or only the new R-Pro?



We have nothing planned at this point. A gummy Champion or Star might be a future possibility.

Hey dave, when do the pigs and aviars come out in the new r-pro? Thanks

Has anything been made in the new R-Pro plastic that I can get my hands on?

I just noticed that the flight characteristics of the Skeeter have been changed on Innova's web page.

Does that mean new Skeeters will not fly with 0 turn and 1 fade (how it was originally listed) or does that mean that Skeeters have always be -1 turn and 1 fade?

My first run Skeeter is crucial in my bag but it does tend to turn A LOT after release. I typically use it for holding longer anhyzer lines. I just want to know for future reference, incase my Skeeter ever gets too beat up or lost.

Hey dave, when do the pigs and aviars come out in the new r-pro? Thanks



Pigs probably not for a while. Aviars in a month.

Has anything been made in the new R-Pro plastic that I can get my hands on?



The Dart on Monday. It is the first.

What happened with the test XDs I really like the Very Soft,supers were way to soft. Any plans to run these in a regular run?

another question where there any 04 USGC ROCS that where black?

What happened with the test XDs I really like the Very Soft,supers were way to soft. Any plans to run these in a regular run?



The test run of the soft XDs went well. We do have plans to run these in the new R-Pro in the future. The R-Pro is like the very soft.

another question where there any 04 USGC ROCS that where black?



I don't know. You could check with Jonathan at Zonedriven. They would be the most likely to know.

my test xd was VERY floppy. almost like a blowfly. the r-pro is stiffer or just as floppy? couldnt find anything much about the dart online either. do you have a link where i can read all about it or is it somewhere on the innova site?

my test xd was VERY floppy. almost like a blowfly. the r-pro is stiffer or just as floppy? couldnt find anything much about the dart online either. do you have a link where i can read all about it or is it somewhere on the innova site?



The R_Pro is firm enough to hold its shape, but otherwise very soft and grippy. The XDs came in two types of plastic. One of the types was flat and floppy. That was too soft to hold its shape. The R-Pro is more like the other. We have written the blurbs on the R-Pro material and the R-Pro Dart, but I don't know where they are available yet. They should be at our website as they are being released today.

The R-Pro Dart is basically a putter like the Aviar, but shaped like a small Aero. It has the same function as an Aviar, but has a slightly different grip, (slightly wider and shorter rim), is slightly faster, and has less low speed fade, with the same high speed stability. The small amount of low speed fade, along with a slightly lower profile grip, separate this putter from an Aviar. This makes the Dart easier to hit long range putts with its longer straight putting range at similar lower speeds.

do you have a link where i can read all about it or is it somewhere on the innova site?



http://www.innovadiscs.com/discs/rprodart.html

my test xd was VERY floppy. almost like a blowfly. the r-pro is stiffer or just as floppy? couldnt find anything much about the dart online either. do you have a link where i can read all about it or is it somewhere on the innova site?



The R_Pro is firm enough to hold its shape, but otherwise very soft and grippy. The XDs came in two types of plastic. One of the types was flat and floppy. That was too soft to hold its shape. The R-Pro is more like the other. We have written the blurbs on the R-Pro material and the R-Pro Dart, but I don't know where they are available yet. They should be at our website as they are being released today.

The R-Pro Dart is basically a putter like the Aviar, but shaped like a small Aero. It has the same function as an Aviar, but has a slightly different grip, (slightly wider and shorter rim), is slightly faster, and has less low speed fade, with the same high speed stability. The small amount of low speed fade, along with a slightly lower profile grip, separate this putter from an Aviar. This makes the Dart easier to hit long range putts with its longer straight putting range at similar lower speeds.



Are we getting close to a Kitty Hawk (very neutral flight), or is the Dart significantly faster?

Are we getting close to a Kitty Hawk (very neutral flight), or is the Dart significantly faster?



The Dart is not fast, but it has to be faster than a Kitty Hawk. Kitty Hawk has to be close to our Polecat, which would be interesting in R-Pro too.

Is the Champion Classic Roc still available for CFR and are the new run of Champion Aviars available for retail? Just wondering because the info didn't seem to be updated on the website yet if it were.

Are we getting close to a Kitty Hawk (very neutral flight), or is the Dart significantly faster?



The Dart is not fast, but it has to be faster than a Kitty Hawk. Kitty Hawk has to be close to our Polecat, which would be interesting in R-Pro too.



Yeah, a softer Polecat would be interesting. If you could round off the Polecat's shoulder and add just a little dome, that would be a killer sloooooooowwwww putter.

Is the Champion Classic Roc still available for CFR and are the new run of Champion Aviars available for retail? Just wondering because the info didn't seem to be updated on the website yet if it were.



No more Champ Classic Rocs right now. Champion Aviars are available for retail. The website is behind. It is undergoing a re do that is taking a while.

"The R-Pro Dart is basically a putter like the Aviar, but shaped like a small Aero"

A cross between my two favorite discs of all time!!! I can't wait to get one! Have they been shipped to retailers yet?

"The R-Pro Dart is basically a putter like the Aviar, but shaped like a small Aero"

A cross between my two favorite discs of all time!!! I can't wait to get one! Have they been shipped to retailers yet?



Hi Bill. Yes they have.

Hey Dave, you mentioned a while back that you would be molding some x-mold (beaded) Gators in Star and Champion. Any idea when those might be molded and sent out to retailers? Thanks!

Why did innova start putting the flight characteristics on the discs. EX: star boss and groove

Why did innova start putting the flight characteristics on the discs. EX: star boss and groove



I think it is a great idea :)

Why did innova start putting the flight characteristics on the discs. EX: star boss and groove



To appeal to geeky minded scientific people(myself included) who appreciate charts, graphs, etc. I've never heard anyone say "I wouldn't buy a disc with a flight chart on it".

Dave,

What kind of feedback have you recieved from your testers/team members on the Star Boss?

I love the one pre-release green 175 that I bought. It seems to have a bit straighter flight character (in the air and at ground impact) than the Champion version, so it seems much more versatile as a go-to distance driver. I just wonder whether I got a really good one or if this disc is simply going to replace everybody's D driver as it gets around.

I think the flight chart is a great idea. Discraft was onto something with the +/- stability ratings they have, but Innova improved upon it by adding the rest of the flight characteristics to the disc. Not only should it help newer players choose discs that might be more appropriate for their skill levels, but it should also help with shot selection on the course for those of us who carry more discs than we know what to do with. :D

I got a disc a few weeks ago it is marked AD is this the new dart or a aviar? Also do they not make champion cobras anymore?

The ratings thing on the disc is good but I think speed and turn might be enough.

they stopped making champion cobras a while back.

AD= Aviar Driver. Its the new Big Bead mold aviar

maybe this is the dumbest question you have received in a while but here it is anyway what does the r- stand for in r-pro?

maybe this is the dumbest question you have received in a while but here it is anyway what does the r- stand for in r-pro?



Rubber I think.

Hey Dave, you mentioned a while back that you would be molding some x-mold (beaded) Gators in Star and Champion. Any idea when those might be molded and sent out to retailers? Thanks!



We have a test coming up fairly soon, but no run scheduled yet.

Why did innova start putting the flight characteristics on the discs. EX: star boss and groove



We just started a month ago or so. We plan on doing it to all of our discs, eventually.

Dave,

What kind of feedback have you recieved from your testers/team members on the Star Boss?

I love the one pre-release green 175 that I bought. It seems to have a bit straighter flight character (in the air and at ground impact) than the Champion version, so it seems much more versatile as a go-to distance driver. I just wonder whether I got a really good one or if this disc is simply going to replace everybody's D driver as it gets around.



We haven't gotten any feedback yet. We just started sending them out to the team. The team members here at the Memorial are getting them.

I got a disc a few weeks ago it is marked AD is this the new dart or a aviar? Also do they not make champion cobras anymore?



The AD could be an old Aviar Driver mark that a molder used more recently. We don't make Champion Cobras on a regular basis. Possibly we will do a run in the future.

maybe this is the dumbest question you have received in a while but here it is anyway what does the r- stand for in r-pro?



Rubber I think.



It is basically just a designation to separate it from the other Pro types, but it also stands for Rubber.

Hi Dave,

How would you compare the Dart to a Goblin? I throw a beat 170g Goblin for longer distance putts and shortish straight approaches...this sounds kinda similar.

Thanks,

-Eric K

whatever line you put it in it goes there. a very straight disc. my buddy was getting good distance with it as well.

Dave,

has anything else been made in r-pro? jk aviar-x's being the one im wondering about. the plastic felt similar but so similar that it might be the same. thanks

I just got 10 JK Aviar - X from Innova East yesterday and they felt the same, since the Dart has R-Pro on the stamp I bet a new JK hotstamp will be made to indicate R-Pro, that may be part of the delay. I was looking forward to feeling a JK -X in the new plastic.

Dave were there any Darts with the Star Stamp?

R-PRO TEEBIRDS / R-PRO ROCS!!! = $$$$$ these would be sweet!!

Hi Dave,

How would you compare the Dart to a Goblin? I throw a beat 170g Goblin for longer distance putts and shortish straight approaches...this sounds kinda similar.

Thanks,

-Eric K



The Dart has a little larger rim, a little more high speed stability, and a little more range.

Dave,

has anything else been made in r-pro? jk aviar-x's being the one im wondering about. the plastic felt similar but so similar that it might be the same. thanks



The next run of JKs will be made out of R-Pro. So will the next Pro Rhynos and Pigs. The Dart is the first of this blend, although the JK, Rhyno, and Pig blends were of the same family of plastics.

I just got 10 JK Aviar - X from Innova East yesterday and they felt the same, since the Dart has R-Pro on the stamp I bet a new JK hotstamp will be made to indicate R-Pro, that may be part of the delay. I was looking forward to feeling a JK -X in the new plastic.

Dave were there any Darts with the Star Stamp?



No, I don't believe there were any with the Star Stamp.

Hi Dave,

in what colors will the R-Pro discs be produced?
(i am specificly interested in the JK's, but the Darts have grabbed my interest too)

When is the Champion Destroyer set for realse?? In regular run production?

i am looking forward to r-pro rhyno release

Hi Dave,

in what colors will the R-Pro discs be produced?
(i am specificly interested in the JK's, but the Darts have grabbed my interest too)



The R-Pro will come in any color. So far yellow, pink, purple, blue, orange, red, and combinations. No black or white yet.

When is the Champion Destroyer set for realse?? In regular run production?



No date has been set yet.

great news re the gator. will there be star with the bead, or star and champ? also-- any tests of light dx bosses yet?

The next run of JKs will be made out of R-Pro. So will the next Pro Rhynos and Pigs. The Dart is the first of this blend, although the JK, Rhyno, and Pig blends were of the same family of plastics.



When can we expect to see those runs of r-pro pigs hit the market? I need to replace my lost pro pig, and was thinking I would wait for the r-pro pigs.

Cindy

great news re the gator. will there be star with the bead, or star and champ? also-- any tests of light dx bosses yet?



Most likely, all future runs of Gators (all types) will have the bead. No test of light DX Bosses yet.

The next run of JKs will be made out of R-Pro. So will the next Pro Rhynos and Pigs. The Dart is the first of this blend, although the JK, Rhyno, and Pig blends were of the same family of plastics.



When can we expect to see those runs of r-pro pigs hit the market? I need to replace my lost pro pig, and was thinking I would wait for the r-pro pigs.

Cindy



The new run of pigs won't happen for several months.

I recently recieved a disc with a 2006 golden state stamp on it. I thought it was a gator but it feels different in the hands. And on the back it says sgm? It looks like it my be a combination of two molds? Does anyone have an idea what it could be? Is it a star gremlin?

That would be my guess thats the only disc I could think of that would have sgm on it but I could be wrong. DAVE?

That would be my guess thats the only disc I could think of that would have sgm on it but I could be wrong. DAVE?



I would have to see it, but the acronym is Star Gremlin. Gremlins are lower profile than Gators although they do share the same bevel look.

And the gremlins from then were beadless

And fantastic discs.

I dont know if this has been asked before, but does anyone know what a 'baby' star roc is? is it smaller than a normal star roc?

"Baby" refers to one of the stamps that was used as part of the 2006 USDGC Roc series, with a baby roc hatching in the picture. Here you go:
http://www.championroc.com/disc.php?id=38

The Baby Star Roc a USDGC stamp from 2006.

http://www.zonedriven.com/baby.jpg


edit: beaten to the punch!

Thanks everyone, that is good news, i found a roc i wanted to buy on ebay and was hoping it wasnt some tiny disc

when and if are star/echo star grooves going to be made. also do you think if you are going to make echo star firebirds

when and if are star/echo star grooves going to be made. also do you think if you are going to make echo star firebirds



We will probably make Star and Echo Star Grooves before the end of April. Echo Firebirds have not been scheduled.

Have you gone back to producing the stable Champion Monsters?

Dave,

In terms of your fairway drivers, imo they are all too stable. Even Leopards in the Star and Champ are stable to overstable when new and stay that way a long time. Same with TLs...most fly like TBs when new and there is really not short cut in the break-in process. What are the chances that you would make a disc in the Teebird speed range with a Monarch-like groove? It would be nice to have an understable fairway driver that you could buy that way. Just a wish...Thanks as always.



I am working on it. Not the Monarch type, but a different technique. Probably going to take several months, but will be worth it if I get it right. The end game is a Leopard distance disc that flies virtually straight. Most of our older discs had some slight overstability built into them for the inevitable scuffs on the DX plastic that we used. We wanted them to have a gradual wear pattern. The urethane plastic changed this wear pattern. Our newer drivers are built with urethane as the primary plastic. Some of them don't do to well with DX.



Any progress on the new driver?

Have you gone back to producing the stable Champion Monsters?



Yes

Dave,

In terms of your fairway drivers, imo they are all too stable. Even Leopards in the Star and Champ are stable to overstable when new and stay that way a long time. Same with TLs...most fly like TBs when new and there is really not short cut in the break-in process. What are the chances that you would make a disc in the Teebird speed range with a Monarch-like groove? It would be nice to have an understable fairway driver that you could buy that way. Just a wish...Thanks as always.



I am working on it. Not the Monarch type, but a different technique. Probably going to take several months, but will be worth it if I get it right. The end game is a Leopard distance disc that flies virtually straight. Most of our older discs had some slight overstability built into them for the inevitable scuffs on the DX plastic that we used. We wanted them to have a gradual wear pattern. The urethane plastic changed this wear pattern. Our newer drivers are built with urethane as the primary plastic. Some of them don't do to well with DX.



Any progress on the new driver?



Yes. Good progress with the theory. Still testing prototypes in mid ranges. Actually tested two today. Both were successful. Going to test another tomorrow. Probably a month or more before the first driver test.

mike g have you ever tried a star leopard? they are pretty straight new... either that or i got lucky with mine..

mike g have you ever tried a star leopard? they are pretty straight new... either that or i got lucky with mine..



I love the leopard. It's one of the most controllable drivers I've thrown. I agree with discspeed though - the ones I've tried in Star and Champion are slightly overstable to begin with.

If Dave could come up with a truly straight fairway driver (6,5,0,0), I'm sure it would be a bestseller.

mike g have you ever tried a star leopard? they are pretty straight new... either that or i got lucky with mine..



I love the leopard. It's one of the most controllable drivers I've thrown. I agree with discspeed though - the ones I've tried in Star and Champion are slightly overstable to begin with.

If Dave could come up with a truly straight fairway driver (6,5,0,0), I'm sure it would be a bestseller.



A flight that truly has zero high speed turn and zero fade is something imparted on the disc by the thrower rather than a disc's flight characteristic. It usually requires a disc with at least a -1 in high speed turn to be thrown with some degree of hyzer with the correct height and spin so that the disc stands up flat out of the hand and when the disc's spin decreases it simply falls to the ground rather than fading. I don't think that zero turn and zero fade can be achieved by a certain wing shape or any of the other molding variables, but we can come closer to that than we currently are for sure. Its still going to be up to the thrower as the perfectly straight shot is one of the most beautiful and difficult things to master.

I think what Dave is probably working on is a disc with numbers more like 6, 5, -1, 1...or something like that. Basically putter numbers for stability/glide and driver numbers for speed. Speed is the tricky variable because it tends to amplify both high speed turn and fade simultaneously.

I don't think that zero turn and zero fade can be achieved by a certain wing shape or any of the other molding variables, but we can come closer to that than we currently are for sure.


We have it already in a Super Class driver from Innova :cool:
http://www.innovadiscs.com/discs/zephyr.html

Hey Dave,

I've been looking for a CFR Glow Firebird FX for a long time. Seems best I can tell its a late 10x or early 11x mold. I've even sent e-mails to discgolfvalues. He said its been a few years since you all have ran them. Any chance you will run them this year? Or any idea where I can locate?

Thanks a bunch!

Hey Dave,

I've been looking for a CFR Glow Firebird FX for a long time. Seems best I can tell its a late 10x or early 11x mold. I've even sent e-mails to discgolfvalues. He said its been a few years since you all have ran them. Any chance you will run them this year? Or any idea where I can locate?

Thanks a bunch!



We still have the FLs, but no FXs. We probably are not running any this year. Sorry, I don't know where you can get any.

Was curious about the "Hands" " Putter" Avair, and the re-issue/ copy version?

Thanks Dave.

Dave, i have noticed on the star Bosses that i just got that there is a bunch of little specks all around the rim of them. is this a molding flaw or something added to the discs?

Was curious about the "Hands" " Putter" Avair, and the re-issue/ copy version?

Thanks Dave.



I don't know that much. The original was done by Frank Allen from Phoenix,Arizona, at the time. A disc golfer. Probably more than 15 years ago. I don't know anything about the re-issue.

Dave, i have noticed on the star Bosses that i just got that there is a bunch of little specks all around the rim of them. is this a molding flaw or something added to the discs?



It's particular to this type of plastic, but it's not that consistent. Sometimes more and sometimes less. It's also particular to this plastic to be more stable in the lighter weights than the heavier weights.

Was curious about the "Hands" " Putter" Avair, and the re-issue/ copy version?

Thanks Dave.



I don't know that much. The original was done by Frank Allen from Phoenix,Arizona, at the time. A disc golfer. Probably more than 15 years ago. I don't know anything about the re-issue.



So was this an original Innova released stamp or a custom stamp? I thought it was a company release. I was just suprised when I pulled it out of the packaging to see a modern Innova Aviar Putter bottomstamp. Just hadnt ever seen a old disc copied like that. Thanks Again.

Dave,
I am curious about the current Star TeeRex mold and how it compares to the original star stamped Teerex. Is the original mold gone for good or could it make a reappearance? Thanks for your time!

Dave,
I am curious about the current Star TeeRex mold and how it compares to the original star stamped Teerex. Is the original mold gone for good or could it make a reappearance? Thanks for your time!



The original is gone more or less. There were two different molds originally. One was defective. It is gone. The X bevel is gone too. So, we could make the original in the good top, but we have chosen to make them a little more stable in the new top.

Dave,
I am curious about the current Star TeeRex mold and how it compares to the original star stamped Teerex. Is the original mold gone for good or could it make a reappearance? Thanks for your time!



The original is gone more or less. There were two different molds originally. One was defective. It is gone. The X bevel is gone too. So, we could make the original in the good top, but we have chosen to make them a little more stable in the new top.



It seems you are really a fan of the L-type bottom, and prefer to blunt the nose for more stability. As in the case of the Wraith, TRX, Max.

Dave, is there some reason why you do not use X bevels to make more stability? Is it the grip? Glide?

Dave,
When you say the newer Teerex is more stable do you mean more stable as in a more neutral flight or are you referring to increasing the high speed stability and or the low speed stability. Thanks again for your time!

Hey Dave,

I've been looking for a CFR Glow Firebird FX for a long time. Seems best I can tell its a late 10x or early 11x mold. I've even sent e-mails to discgolfvalues. He said its been a few years since you all have ran them. Any chance you will run them this year? Or any idea where I can locate?

Thanks a bunch!



Email Jeremy Rusco at Dynamic Discs! Last I knew he had quite a few.

Dave,

I am curious how its possible for a lighter disc to be more stable than the heavy disc of the same mold, i thought the weight was directly linked with stability..... and does this apply to all plastics?

thanks

Dave,
I am curious about the current Star TeeRex mold and how it compares to the original star stamped Teerex. Is the original mold gone for good or could it make a reappearance? Thanks for your time!



The original is gone more or less. There were two different molds originally. One was defective. It is gone. The X bevel is gone too. So, we could make the original in the good top, but we have chosen to make them a little more stable in the new top.



It seems you are really a fan of the L-type bottom, and prefer to blunt the nose for more stability. As in the case of the Wraith, TRX, Max.

Dave, is there some reason why you do not use X bevels to make more stability? Is it the grip? Glide?



X bevels are weaker to crashes. The nose gets bent too easily. We do use some X bevel though. The Firebird, Teebird, Starfire, Orc, Monster, and one or two others use them.

Dave,
When you say the newer Teerex is more stable do you mean more stable as in a more neutral flight or are you referring to increasing the high speed stability and or the low speed stability. Thanks again for your time!



The second type: high speed stability and low speed over stability.

Dave,

I am curious how its possible for a lighter disc to be more stable than the heavy disc of the same mold, i thought the weight was directly linked with stability..... and does this apply to all plastics?

thanks



Weight per se is never tied to stability. That is a myth and an artifact of the way we usually mold discs. While it is generally true that lighter discs tend to be less stable than heavier, it is from shrinkage, not weight. The heavier discs are either compacted more or have more filler which causes them to shrink less and therefor generally be more stable. In the case of light Bosses or Destroyers, we use a Star plastic that has less shrink in lighter weights than heavy.

Hi Dave,

two questions:

1. I had an early 174g Champ Coyote that seemed more stable (straight) than the ones I later tried to replace it with after losing it. The replacements were heavier but never seemed as stable. I then switched to QMS's (older opaque versions and proto SMS's) and was happy. But opaque QMS's are hard to come by and I like how Coyotes feel in my hand... Do you think the lighter ones could be more stable than the ones 178-180grams?

2. You mentioned a while ago that Pro Orcs might likely soon be available as a new Millenium mold... update please (apologies if this was covered recently and i missed it)...

Dave,

I am curious how its possible for a lighter disc to be more stable than the heavy disc of the same mold, i thought the weight was directly linked with stability..... and does this apply to all plastics?

thanks



Weight per se is never tied to stability. That is a myth and an artifact of the way we usually mold discs. While it is generally true that lighter discs tend to be less stable than heavier, it is from shrinkage, not weight. The heavier discs are either compacted more or have more filler which causes them to shrink less and therefor generally be more stable. In the case of light Bosses or Destroyers, we use a Star plastic that has less shrink in lighter weights than heavy.



Thanks Dave.

Hi Dave,

two questions:

1. I had an early 174g Champ Coyote that seemed more stable (straight) than the ones I later tried to replace it with after losing it. The replacements were heavier but never seemed as stable. I then switched to QMS's (older opaque versions and proto SMS's) and was happy. But opaque QMS's are hard to come by and I like how Coyotes feel in my hand... Do you think the lighter ones could be more stable than the ones 178-180grams?

I don't think the lighter Champ Coyotes would be more stable than the heavier. The Star Coyotes tested more stable for me than the Champ did. Might not be true for the entire run though.

2. You mentioned a while ago that Pro Orcs might likely soon be available as a new Millenium mold... update please (apologies if this was covered recently and i missed it)...



Though I thought it was a slam dunk, Millennium wasn't interested in the Pro Orc.

Hey Dave!
Whats with the "special test" champion boss's from 09 Masters? Is it safe to assume they are different than your standard DF boss?

Hi Dave-
any idea when a new run of destroyers will be made in the newer star plastic than can be run lighter? how light do you expect these destroyers to get?
thanks again

Hey Dave!
Whats with the "special test" champion boss's from 09 Masters? Is it safe to assume they are different than your standard DF boss?



The were different from the normal Champion Bosses. They were more stable. Now the entire Champion runs are a little more stable.

Hi Dave-
any idea when a new run of destroyers will be made in the newer star plastic than can be run lighter? how light do you expect these destroyers to get?
thanks again



They have been run, but they didn't get as low as we would,ve liked. I believe they only got down to around 166 gms.

Hey Dave,
I like my fairway drivers in champion plastic that is a solid color. This plastic seems to be less dense than domey clear champion but more consistant than the marbled champion plastic. I find this solid colored plastic in smaller winged discs. I had a couple of orcs in this plastic about a year ago but I have not seen any drivers faster than this in the plastic. I would love to find a wraith, destroyer, or boss in this plastic.

First, do you have any idea what I am trying to communicate?
Is this plastic harder to run larger winged discs because of weight?
Is there any chance of seeing these distance drivers in this plastic?

Thank you

Hey Dave!
Whats with the "special test" champion boss's from 09 Masters? Is it safe to assume they are different than your standard DF boss?



The were different from the normal Champion Bosses. They were more stable. Now the entire Champion runs are a little more stable.



https://www.discgolfvalues.com/store/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=269

They are up for sale now

Dave,

Were all the bubbles is the Special Run Champ Bosses intentional? Also, do you plan on doing any more nightshift style bosses or maybe the Teebird and Eagle?

Hey Dave,
I like my fairway drivers in champion plastic that is a solid color. This plastic seems to be less dense than domey clear champion but more consistant than the marbled champion plastic. I find this solid colored plastic in smaller winged discs. I had a couple of orcs in this plastic about a year ago but I have not seen any drivers faster than this in the plastic. I would love to find a wraith, destroyer, or boss in this plastic.

First, do you have any idea what I am trying to communicate?
Is this plastic harder to run larger winged discs because of weight?
Is there any chance of seeing these distance drivers in this plastic?

Thank you



Unless you are talking about the filler we use for the heavier weight smaller rimmed drivers, I don't know what you are talking about. If that is what you are talking about, that filler can't be used for the larger rimmed drivers. Heavier weight Orcs could have some of this filler in them in Champion.

Dave,

Were all the bubbles is the Special Run Champ Bosses intentional? Also, do you plan on doing any more nightshift style bosses or maybe the Teebird and Eagle?



They weren't intentional and stores don't want these discs. These are very stable like Nightshift. We don't plan on doing any more Nightshift for the present, but we have incorporated some of this into regular Champion for our more stable discs like Bosses, Firebird, TeeBirds etc.

Hey Dave,
I like my fairway drivers in champion plastic that is a solid color. This plastic seems to be less dense than domey clear champion but more consistant than the marbled champion plastic. I find this solid colored plastic in smaller winged discs. I had a couple of orcs in this plastic about a year ago but I have not seen any drivers faster than this in the plastic. I would love to find a wraith, destroyer, or boss in this plastic.

First, do you have any idea what I am trying to communicate?
Is this plastic harder to run larger winged discs because of weight?
Is there any chance of seeing these distance drivers in this plastic?

Thank you



Unless you are talking about the filler we use for the heavier weight smaller rimmed drivers, I don't know what you are talking about. If that is what you are talking about, that filler can't be used for the larger rimmed drivers. Heavier weight Orcs could have some of this filler in them in Champion.



Maybe he is refering to the pearlescent 'pearly' early Champ Orcs? I love those. they were less overstable than the clear (transluscent) ones that came out later. Same thing with the QMS. The clear transluscent ones seem more overstable and therefore less to my liking...

i had only found the orcs once and it was a later run. i find eagles, teebirds, and banshees to have this type of plastic more than other discs. i have a leopard with it also but it is the only leopard i have found with it. the filler makes sense and i am pretty sure that is what i am refering to. this would make sense why it isnt found in the larger winged discs.

Dave,

Were all the bubbles is the Special Run Champ Bosses intentional? Also, do you plan on doing any more nightshift style bosses or maybe the Teebird and Eagle?



They weren't intentional and stores don't want these discs. These are very stable like Nightshift. We don't plan on doing any more Nightshift for the present, but we have incorporated some of this into regular Champion for our more stable discs like Bosses, Firebird, TeeBirds etc.



Will these discs be marked or designated differently and will it be done to these molds from now on or some of each stability?

Do you plan on doing this with the Star version too?

Thanks for the time!

Dave,

Were all the bubbles is the Special Run Champ Bosses intentional? Also, do you plan on doing any more nightshift style bosses or maybe the Teebird and Eagle?



They weren't intentional and stores don't want these discs. These are very stable like Nightshift. We don't plan on doing any more Nightshift for the present, but we have incorporated some of this into regular Champion for our more stable discs like Bosses, Firebird, TeeBirds etc.



Will these discs be marked or designated differently and will it be done to these molds from now on or some of each stability?

Do you plan on doing this with the Star version too?

Thanks for the time!



They won't be marked, we just want to be sure the more stable discs will be more stable. We don't use that for Star but they are a little more stable now too.

Great job with the Star Boss! I loved my Champions so much I resisted liking the Stars...but I definetely like them BETTER. This seemed to be the consensus among the Florida pros. Kenny aced a 400' hole on a second shot when we were warming up for our tournament on Friday, and it was his first round throwing the Star Boss. It was his 2nd longest ace ever!

I have been throwing the Stars a lot, and I threw the Champions a lot before that (throwing farther is soooo addictive...I should be practicing putting!), and I really noticed that the Star perform truer in the wind. Even my domey max weight champions that are definetely more stable without wind flip more into wind. I have a red 175 Star Boss that absolutely kicked the wind's butt this weekend! I've never gotten that kind of D into a headwind before. This is probably going to have me throwing the Stars rather than the Champion. I for one would be very interested in Star Bosses that have been "stabilized" with your magic technique. Any chance of that happening in the future? I think it would be cool for CFRs.

On another note, does Feldberg have to win another championship to get his name on the Star Boss? ;) Thanks for your time as always.

I for one would be very interested in Star Bosses that have been "stabilized" with your magic technique. Any chance of that happening in the future? I think it would be cool for CFRs.




Maybe for CFR, but the lighter weight Star Bosses are already pretty stable.

If I missed this earlier, I apologize. Are the purple KC Rocs, rare or are they here to stay? thanks,

If I missed this earlier, I apologize. Are the purple KC Rocs, rare or are they here to stay? thanks,



Most of the colors are rare at this point. We just started running more colors than usual. Most of the time, we just ran a natural off white. Purple should tend to remain a less frequently run color.

Dave,

I bought a beast today and it seemed to have a little more of an x-type bevel on it. Is this a new mold or an accident of some type?

http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/5631/dsc0005z.th.jpg (http://img21.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc0005z.jpg)

It also had these bubbles at the center underneath so I didn't know if maybe this was the new plastic with the bubbles in the rim which caused some shrinkage? I haven't thrown it yet so I don't know how stable it is.

http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/8620/52587775.th.jpg (http://img18.imageshack.us/my.php?image=52587775.jpg)

Thanks.

Dave,

I bought a beast today and it seemed to have a little more of an x-type bevel on it. Is this a new mold or an accident of some type?

http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/5631/dsc0005z.th.jpg (http://img21.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc0005z.jpg)

It also had these bubbles at the center underneath so I didn't know if maybe this was the new plastic with the bubbles in the rim which caused some shrinkage? I haven't thrown it yet so I don't know how stable it is.

http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/8620/52587775.th.jpg (http://img18.imageshack.us/my.php?image=52587775.jpg)

Thanks.



It wouldn't be a new type, but it could possibly be the original type. Most likely just odd shrinkage. The center area is hotter than normal and that accounts for the bubble look. That happens from time to time.

Are there any plans to ever retool the firebird or something you can do to make them flat topped? all the champion firebirds i've picked up recently are very, very domey and will flip in the slightest of winds. i tried some of the flat top star firebirds but hey aren't what i would call overstable..the actually flew exactly like a teebird for me

Are there any plans to ever retool the firebird or something you can do to make them flat topped? all the champion firebirds i've picked up recently are very, very domey and will flip in the slightest of winds. i tried some of the flat top star firebirds but hey aren't what i would call overstable..the actually flew exactly like a teebird for me



Yes, next run will be done more stable with a different process. This won't necessary make them flat, but it will make them more stable. We are incorporating this process with all of our stable Champion models.

Dave-

Can you think of any reason to throw (not putt with, throw) soft putters over harder ones? Is there a distinct advantage of one over the other? Or does it just boil down to personal preference?

Thanks

My Teerex was sweet but is now too beat to be a very trustworthy headwind disc. I am considering replacing it with a newer faster mold: a Boss or X-Caliber. X-Cal is obviously a good option. I really like the X-out Boss I have, but I wish it was more overstable. Everything on the Boss side seems confusing. I hear the light star Bosses are the most overstable. Does that definitely translate into being good in the wind? I had a light FLX Predator that was sweet into the wind... for about five rounds of golf. Then it lost that new disc, hyzer bite. Now a full power shot into a moderate headwind will slowly turn the disc all the way over (even though it still has wicked fade with no wind.) I want a disc that will stay overstable for most of its life. I like the prerelease X-out Bosss I have. However, it is somewhat speed sensitive. At low speed it has a lot of fade/skip, but at high speed it's downright flippy. In clean air I love it: slight hyzer + full power = 380+ft hyzer. But into a headwind, even on a significant hyzer the thing is practically a roller. Most of this is probably a function of my particular disc.

Anyway, I'm an am. I'm not rated very highly, but my driving game is way better than my putting game. I throw a teebird (hyzer) about 350'. I want a disc that well get me close to 400' in a moderate headwind. Somebody tell me what to get!!

An X-caliber is a good headwind disc... After you break it in you can still throw line drives into headwind without a flip. Just a flat line. New they are stable pigs. The new star boss's are the bomb though. Any weight is good now that they worked the kinks out... Just make sure the disc is stiff, domey, and that you can actually pop the dome on it. They are awsome. I have 2 168g and 2 175g star in my bag. And I have some champion merlot boss's in my bag too... This less high speed stable version is great for huge hyzers up hill or in a tail wind. I still prefer a champion max over an X-caliber any day tho...

my two cents: soft putters work to advantage on putts or approaches or drives if i want the disc to dig in rather than skip or scoot once it lands. they still skip or scoot but not as far as slicker discs. especially helps on slopes or near OB water

soft discs also seem to offer advantage in cold whether where fingers lose touch...

i also greatly prefer the feel in all conditions. i can throw soft JK Aviars 300+ ft without them flipping so i don't get the softer-equals-flippier arguments some have made... I never use the power grip though if that is part of it... :confused: if they could make gummy max weight Orcs and Destroyers and Bosses that would be great.

mmmmmmmm.........gummy..........mmmmmmm

Dave-

Can you think of any reason to throw (not putt with, throw) soft putters over harder ones? Is there a distinct advantage of one over the other? Or does it just boil down to personal preference?

Thanks



Aviar X answers this well. Many people can't throw really soft putters hard, especially on side arm shots: the disc can bend in your grip and feel different, the disc can be torqued on release more easily, and (although this can be good too), the disc can be over gripped if you're not used to it. I have dry hands and prefer the disc to be super grippy, whether it's soft or not. Grip is a very important part of any shot, as you know.

my two cents: soft putters work to advantage on putts or approaches or drives if i want the disc to dig in rather than skip or scoot once it lands. they still skip or scoot but not as far as slicker discs. especially helps on slopes or near OB water

soft discs also seem to offer advantage in cold whether where fingers lose touch...

i also greatly prefer the feel in all conditions. i can throw soft JK Aviars 300+ ft without them flipping so i don't get the softer-equals-flippier arguments some have made... I never use the power grip though if that is part of it... :confused: if they could make gummy max weight Orcs and Destroyers and Bosses that would be great.



what grip are you using>? fan grip?
i cant do a fan grip, my fingers just wont bend like that. but i can throw a kc pro aviar around 300ft max. with a 4 finger grip.

My Teerex was sweet but is now too beat to be a very trustworthy headwind disc. I am considering replacing it with a newer faster mold: a Boss or X-Caliber. X-Cal is obviously a good option. I really like the X-out Boss I have, but I wish it was more overstable. Everything on the Boss side seems confusing. I hear the light star Bosses are the most overstable. Does that definitely translate into being good in the wind? I had a light FLX Predator that was sweet into the wind... for about five rounds of golf. Then it lost that new disc, hyzer bite. Now a full power shot into a moderate headwind will slowly turn the disc all the way over (even though it still has wicked fade with no wind.) I want a disc that will stay overstable for most of its life. I like the prerelease X-out Bosss I have. However, it is somewhat speed sensitive. At low speed it has a lot of fade/skip, but at high speed it's downright flippy. In clean air I love it: slight hyzer + full power = 380+ft hyzer. But into a headwind, even on a significant hyzer the thing is practically a roller. Most of this is probably a function of my particular disc.

Anyway, I'm an am. I'm not rated very highly, but my driving game is way better than my putting game. I throw a teebird (hyzer) about 350'. I want a disc that well get me close to 400' in a moderate headwind. Somebody tell me what to get!!



I think you would be happy with the results from an Xcal. Get your hands on one and see if you like it. My Xcal has given me lots of confidence when throwing into a headwind. In a head, I put a slight annie tilt on it and aim off maybe 10-15 degrees to the right if I have room, keeping it about 6-10' off the ground. It holds an S-turn well and hyzers at the end. Also very useful for huge, wide, high hyzers. I used to use a Force for these shots but it beat up too quickly, which sounds like what happened with your Pred and TRX.

Something else I noticed, an Xcal in a headwind has a very similar flight to a TB in a tailwind. That's a very useful shot, I'm glad I have it now.

star xcal? are they as overstable as the cfr's?

What would this marking on the under side of a disc mean? S.PD It appears to be a star destroyer to me it has a Christmas stamp by the way.

I believe that is the Star Power Driver from Discmania.

It has an Innova Christmas stamp on it. It is at an Innova distributors store.

star xcal? are they as overstable as the cfr's?



Yup Star. I haven't thrown the CFR.

I believe that is the Star Power Driver from Discmania.



Correct. The Power Driver is molded by Innova.

What would this marking on the under side of a disc mean? S.PD It appears to be a star destroyer to me it has a Christmas stamp by the way.



S.PD is the mark for S.Power Driver, however, if it appears to be like a Star Destroyer, it might be a S.DD poorly written. The Distance Driver would be more like a Destroyer.

star xcal? are they as overstable as the cfr's?



not really... the echo ones are really stable too. if you like the feel of star and the durability and stability of champion, then go with the echo star plastic. its not as durable to champion but its better than regular star plastic for sure.

what grip are you using>? fan grip?
i cant do a fan grip, my fingers just wont bend like that. but i can throw a kc pro aviar around 300ft max. with a 4 finger grip.



i use the same grip i used in Ultimate for everything -- i hear it is called the FU grip (modified fan grip w/ middle 'FU' finger extended almost completely straight). the last digit of my pinky and index finger each are on and parallel to the rim and perpendicular to the flight plate (tips touch the flight plate) . my ring finger's last digit is parallel to the flight plate and perpendicular to the rim (tip touches rim). My middle finger is extended almost straight and touches the disc with the last digit (pad) under the flight plate. the thumb (top) and middle finger (underneathe) each press on the flight plate. I feel this gives me better control that the power grip (and feels more natural after throwing lids for years). I can throw 500 ft so i don't feel i lose distance...

The FU grip is called the birdie grip if I remember right. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong.

The FU grip is called the birdie grip if I remember right. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong.



looks like you're right:

Birdie Grip

This is an accuracy power grip. Three finger pads are pressed against the inside wall of the rim. The middle finger opposes the thumb pad on the flight plate. This grip is not quite as powerful as the Four-Finger Power Grip, but it gives the thrower a greater feel for the disc and provides additional accuracy.

source: http://www.innovadiscs.com/tips/davesgripsmain.html#backhand

Birdie Grip � Bottom View

http://www.innovadiscs.com/tips/images/grips/P1010048.jpg
---------------

my Birdie Grip is a little different than pictured. I never consciously chose a grip -- this is just the one i fell into that works for me. It is good with Lids too :D The difference with mine is that all four fingers from the knuckles to the middle joints are lined up together and touching each other. I think that leads to more power... it definitely helps me get a strong grip.

if anyone finds that image offensive, i apologize in advance to the PDGA leadership :D

please do not ban the Birdie grip!

Hi Dave,

forgive me if this has been covered before but i hear the Star Bosses have two different stamps -- the ones from Innova West reportedly have slashes in between the rating numbers and read "PDGA Approved - innovadiscs.com" in the Swoosh. The ones from Innova East reportedly have boxes around the rating numbers and a solid Swoosh.

are they all the same run and will we be seeing this with other molds too?

i have seen the difference on the discs when i was looking thru on ebay. the east coast star bosses have the flight numbers in boxes, west coast with the slashes in between.

They fly exactly the same for me.

i think they are the same, just stamped at different places

I found a big batch of Pro Wraiths at my local disc golf store that were labeled "P-DD". Were these just labeled incorrectly or possibly Distance Drivers with the wrong stamp?

Hi Dave,

forgive me if this has been covered before but i hear the Star Bosses have two different stamps -- the ones from Innova West reportedly have slashes in between the rating numbers and read "PDGA Approved - innovadiscs.com" in the Swoosh. The ones from Innova East reportedly have boxes around the rating numbers and a solid Swoosh.

are they all the same run and will we be seeing this with other molds too?



The stamp is irrelevant. It's not indicative of a different run. Both stamps were supposed to look like the East coast stamp. We are planning on putting flight numbers on all of our discs in the future.

I found a big batch of Pro Wraiths at my local disc golf store that were labeled "P-DD". Were these just labeled incorrectly or possibly Distance Drivers with the wrong stamp?



Could be either. I think it was a marking error. The P-DD has a thicker rim. You should be able to tell the difference side by side if you have a known reference Wraith.

Dave,

I have a couple of red Star Bosses that are completely transparent. They are not quite as clear as most champion discs, but you can see details through them. Do these discs have Champion plastic mixed in? Why do different star plastic discs in the same mold vary so much in translucence? I was under the impression that Star was its own polymer rather than a blend. Is this wrong? Thanks as always!

I have 3 reds and they are all like that. Most of my red star discs (mainly TBs) are the same way. I hunt them down.

Dave,

I have a couple of red Star Bosses that are completely transparent. They are not quite as clear as most champion discs, but you can see details through them. Do these discs have Champion plastic mixed in? Why do different star plastic discs in the same mold vary so much in translucence? I was under the impression that Star was its own polymer rather than a blend. Is this wrong? Thanks as always!



Star has always been a blend. It started with night shift Orcs, progressed to Special Blend, then to Star. The new Star for long range drivers like Bosses and Destroyers has a different blend that allows for lighter weights and more stability at those lighter weights. The discs you have might be mis-marked or transition discs.

Dave just wondering. I haven't had to purchase approach discs for a while but I'm finally running out. I was wondering which aviar is most like my beloved Big-Bead Aviar circa 2000-2001. The Classic? also would either the Star P&A or the Star Aviar Driver be similiar just in a newer plastic?

Dave, do you find that the new blend of star performs well in the wind at lighter weights? I wouldn't expect a lighter disc to have as much penetrating power, but does it hold it's line well?

Dave,

Have you ever considered designing a disc specifically for overhand distance shots? Nothing like the Epic, but more like a Firebird/Monster designed to enhance speed/spin and slow down the precession of the flight?

Dave,

Have you ever considered designing a disc specifically for overhand distance shots? Nothing like the Epic, but more like a Firebird/Monster designed to enhance speed/spin and slow down the precession of the flight?

This is a great idea!!

Dave just wondering. I haven't had to purchase approach discs for a while but I'm finally running out. I was wondering which aviar is most like my beloved Big-Bead Aviar circa 2000-2001. The Classic? also would either the Star P&A or the Star Aviar Driver be similiar just in a newer plastic?



Big Bead is a driver Aviar usually. We have three or four kinds of driver Aviars including KC, JK, Star, DX for custom stamping.

Dave, do you find that the new blend of star performs well in the wind at lighter weights? I wouldn't expect a lighter disc to have as much penetrating power, but does it hold it's line well?



Absolutely for Bosses. I haven't really tried Destroyers for winds yet, but I would assume they are just as good. I have been playing with 166 gm Star Bosses for several weeks and although they have lost their edge a little, are still quite good in the wind.

Dave,

Have you ever considered designing a disc specifically for overhand distance shots? Nothing like the Epic, but more like a Firebird/Monster designed to enhance speed/spin and slow down the precession of the flight?



I have thought about it, but haven't done anything about it yet. I haven't gotten around to studying the aerodynamics of an upside down throw yet. I know what happens, but I don't know why yet. Speed is not an issue, but slowing down precession is.

Dave,

Have you ever considered designing a disc specifically for overhand distance shots? Nothing like the Epic, but more like a Firebird/Monster designed to enhance speed/spin and slow down the precession of the flight?



I have thought about it, but haven't done anything about it yet. I haven't gotten around to studying the aerodynamics of an upside down throw yet. I know what happens, but I don't know why yet. Speed is not an issue, but slowing down precession is.



What I meant by speed was speed of the spin, since that would keep the disc from precessing to quickly.

What I meant by speed was speed of the spin, since that would keep the disc from precessing to quickly.



Although it's logical, this is not necessarily true for inverted "flight". Some of the worst discs with poor rotational inertia, "fly" with very slow precession upside down. 40 molds and Zephyrs come to mind.

Also, I am not at all sure it's "precession" we see when we watch the disc corkscrew. From my experience with upside down flight starting in the late seventies with Frisbees, I would tend to call it a flight characteristic, rather than precession. That would help to explain why discs with widely different spin energies turn similarly, and why discs with virtually identical spin energies, turn at widely different rates.

But, as I said before, I haven't really studied upside down flight with an eye toward designing a disc, I have only observed what I have observed.

Hey Dave,

I've thrown half a dozen Grooves and close to 30 different Champ and Star Bosses and I have found that the flight ratings are close, but still a little off. I know everybody throws differently, but I think I have a style and form fairly representative of most pros/top ams. Here are the ratings as I've experienced.

Boss--Innova says:13,5,-1,3
My opinion :13,5,-1/2,4

Groove--Innova says:13,6,-2,2
My opinion :12,6,-1,3

I'll justify my opinions by first noting that both these discs are as gyroscopic as I've thrown and both exhibit more LSS at the very end of their flights as any of your other straight distance drivers. The Boss always finishes harder than a Destroyer (LSS). I haven't met anyone disputing this. Also, the Groove seems much closer to the Destroyer in speed (12) than to the Boss (13). Looking purely at the ratings, one is led to believe that the Groove flies farther (same speed 13, more glide 6) than the Boss. Among those who have the armspeed to throw both, I've yet to hear of anyone who is throwing the Groove further. To me the Boss seems like Innova's fastest disc by some margin. Compared to other discs rated -1 & -2 in HSS, I find the speed and weight distribution of the Boss/Groove make them more low and high speed overstable. The Boss just gets up and rides flat, designed beautifully to flip up but not really over. To me, this flight is a -1/2. To get a -1, I have to start the Boss slightly turned over. To me, the Grooves I threw averaged -1, with some closer to a Boss and one that was close to the -2 rating. The Groove is definetely more stable from start to finish than say the Beast, which has identical HSS and LSS numbers.

These are only my opinions. I realize that the ratings were established before the market was flushed with these discs and everyone was throwing them. Flight ratings really pull my interest because I think that it helps people to spend their money more wisely and have more fun playing, especially early on. Its great that you are printing the ratings on your discs, I hope they are still subject to change as well. Thanks for your time.

Hey Dave,

I've thrown half a dozen Grooves and close to 30 different Champ and Star Bosses and I have found that the flight ratings are close, but still a little off. I know everybody throws differently, but I think I have a style and form fairly representative of most pros/top ams. Here are the ratings as I've experienced.

Boss--Innova says:13,5,-1,3
My opinion :13,5,-1/2,4

Groove--Innova says:13,6,-2,2
My opinion :12,6,-1,3

I'll justify my opinions by first noting that both these discs are as gyroscopic as I've thrown and both exhibit more LSS at the very end of their flights as any of your other straight distance drivers. The Boss always finishes harder than a Destroyer (LSS). I haven't met anyone disputing this. Also, the Groove seems much closer to the Destroyer in speed (12) than to the Boss (13). Looking purely at the ratings, one is led to believe that the Groove flies farther (same speed 13, more glide 6) than the Boss. Among those who have the armspeed to throw both, I've yet to hear of anyone who is throwing the Groove further. To me the Boss seems like Innova's fastest disc by some margin. Compared to other discs rated -1 & -2 in HSS, I find the speed and weight distribution of the Boss/Groove make them more low and high speed overstable. The Boss just gets up and rides flat, designed beautifully to flip up but not really over. To me, this flight is a -1/2. To get a -1, I have to start the Boss slightly turned over. To me, the Grooves I threw averaged -1, with some closer to a Boss and one that was close to the -2 rating. The Groove is definetely more stable from start to finish than say the Beast, which has identical HSS and LSS numbers.

These are only my opinions. I realize that the ratings were established before the market was flushed with these discs and everyone was throwing them. Flight ratings really pull my interest because I think that it helps people to spend their money more wisely and have more fun playing, especially early on. Its great that you are printing the ratings on your discs, I hope they are still subject to change as well. Thanks for your time.



I can't really argue with your assessment. The ratings were originally assigned for the Boss when we were still getting the formula correct. At that time we had some very domey hss stable discs and some softer flatter discs that weren't very hss. It was an average. Since then we have been making consistently more stable discs.

The Groove is going through the same process, but it's been a little more difficult to pin that one down. Yes the ratings are subject to change and review over time. That being said, unless we use half numbers, or expand the scale again, some of the numbers are going to be a little off. Also, it's difficult to compare the turning numbers between speed classes. Within a speed class, it's much easier. Most throwers will not get any hss turn from a Groove, but 400 ft throwers will get significant turn.

Dave

What distance range do you base your ratings on?

Hopefully that question makes sense. Im asking because I have 400+ ft power yet I throw with several people who are in the 275-300ft range. Obviously discs are going to fly much different for those two different ranges, so Im just curious what range you base your ratings on.

For example a disc rated 10,5,-1,2

For me would it be closer to a -2 HSS and for the guys with 300ft power would the HSS be closer to 0? If yo throw in the 360 range would those ratings be just right.

I am aware there are several different factors including form and arm speed, but Im just looking for a generalization of what power range you base your ratings on.

Thanks for your time

I think it's based on how far Steve Wisecup throws them! :cool:

Dave, do you find that the new blend of star performs well in the wind at lighter weights? I wouldn't expect a lighter disc to have as much penetrating power, but does it hold it's line well?



Absolutely for Bosses. I haven't really tried Destroyers for winds yet, but I would assume they are just as good. I have been playing with 166 gm Star Bosses for several weeks and although they have lost their edge a little, are still quite good in the wind.



It appears to be the shrinkage of the plastic. The lighter discs have more concavity on the bottom of the wing than the heavier ones. All of the Star have more shrinkage on the bottom of the wing than the first run Champ version.

In othr words the Champ are more like an "L" wing, and the Star is more of an X, with the lighter Star more like a XX.

I like it. :D I am throwing a disc in the 160 range for the first time in years, and I can lean on it.

If you could do this on purpose, man you would really have something...

The Leopard is sooooooo sweet! Just wanted to let you know! It is my new multi-purpose disc for bh rollers, fairway drives, short anhyzers, supper sraight shots, & overall control shots. I love rediscovering older discs.

The Leopard is sooooooo sweet! Just wanted to let you know! It is my new multi-purpose disc for bh rollers, fairway drives, short anhyzers, supper sraight shots, & overall control shots. I love rediscovering older discs.



Which plastic and what weight are you throwing? I put an X-out champ 175g (without any obvious defects) in my bag a few weeks ago, but had to remove it because at >75% power, it would hyzer flip up and over at ~40% of its flight path and never return to flat or hyzer. I'd love to put a leopard back in the bag, but don't want to buy a bunch and try them out.

Dave

What distance range do you base your ratings on?

Hopefully that question makes sense. Im asking because I have 400+ ft power yet I throw with several people who are in the 275-300ft range. Obviously discs are going to fly much different for those two different ranges, so Im just curious what range you base your ratings on.

For example a disc rated 10,5,-1,2

For me would it be closer to a -2 HSS and for the guys with 300ft power would the HSS be closer to 0? If yo throw in the 360 range would those ratings be just right.

I am aware there are several different factors including form and arm speed, but Im just looking for a generalization of what power range you base your ratings on.

Thanks for your time



We base the ratings on how the discs are being used. A hss of 0 for a putter is not the same as a hss 0 for a long range driver. The putter is assumed to be thrown in the 20 to 220 range, and the long range driver in the 300 + range. Bosses and Groves are only tested over 350 ft so if you can't throw 350 ft, you are definitely going to get different results.

Dave

What distance range do you base your ratings on?

Hopefully that question makes sense. Im asking because I have 400+ ft power yet I throw with several people who are in the 275-300ft range. Obviously discs are going to fly much different for those two different ranges, so Im just curious what range you base your ratings on.

For example a disc rated 10,5,-1,2

For me would it be closer to a -2 HSS and for the guys with 300ft power would the HSS be closer to 0? If yo throw in the 360 range would those ratings be just right.

I am aware there are several different factors including form and arm speed, but Im just looking for a generalization of what power range you base your ratings on.

Thanks for your time



We base the ratings on how the discs are being used. A hss of 0 for a putter is not the same as a hss 0 for a long range driver. The putter is assumed to be thrown in the 20 to 220 range, and the long range driver in the 300 + range. Bosses and Groves are only tested over 350 ft so if you can't throw 350 ft, you are definitely going to get different results.



Thanks for the response...glad to know that I have been fairly accurate with my descriptions about the ratings to some of the newer players

The Leopard is sooooooo sweet! Just wanted to let you know! It is my new multi-purpose disc for bh rollers, fairway drives, short anhyzers, supper sraight shots, & overall control shots. I love rediscovering older discs.


I have a CE Leopard and it does what I want it too if you find it flips to easy try a fan grip and release it at more of a hyzer angle I throw pretty hard and this works for me to get it out 300-340 with out it flipping all the way but I know what you mean about it if I get on it too hard it flips and no chance of flatting at all

Which plastic and what weight are you throwing? I put an X-out champ 175g (without any obvious defects) in my bag a few weeks ago, but had to remove it because at >75% power, it would hyzer flip up and over at ~40% of its flight path and never return to flat or hyzer. I'd love to put a leopard back in the bag, but don't want to buy a bunch and try them out.

Not everyone has the same power or arm speed. Is it time we had a disc launching device that all companies could use to rate new discs? Something like the Iron Byron for golf balls?

why hasnt that happened already. after over 20 years it surprises me that there isnt a machine that will test disc with "perfect" form everytime.

why hasnt that happened already. after over 20 years it surprises me that there isnt a machine that will test disc with "perfect" form everytime.



This doesn't really make sense for disc flight. It is fine for a golf ball or baseball even. But discs don't fly in two dimensions. Spin, initial velocity, and angle of incidence with the club face, (trajectory) are everything for the ball.

Spin is relatively incidental for a disc throw, but necessary. The only two things that are the same are initial velocity and trajectory. In addition to these variables, for disc throwing we have nose attitude,disc characteristic, (right side up, and upside down), rim configuration, plastic type influencing grip. Gotta go.

why hasnt that happened already. after over 20 years it surprises me that there isnt a machine that will test disc with "perfect" form everytime.



Are you volunteering to pony up the cash for such a device...

which still won't answer the question: How does it fly for me?

Callaway Golf had $1.12 Billion in revenue last year. We're small potatoes in comparison...

understood.

It's cool idea and I know of a few who have tried to make a machine that would fling the disc. In the most recent attempt I heard about, they were trying to modify the launcher used for flinging clay pigeons in trap shooting.

yea with an adjustable arm for anhyzer/hyzer shots and obviously a wrist like hinge system on top similar to those snakes made of wood all connected in the middle(like something from a truck stop). and tension system to wind up for the release. of course this all sounds very easy and looks very simple in my head but there is much engineering to have all that work together. but still sounds cool

It's cool idea and I know of a few who have tried to make a machine that would fling the disc. In the most recent attempt I heard about, they were trying to modify the launcher used for flinging clay pigeons in trap shooting.



No questions are going to be answered in this way except perhaps which disc is fastest. That's wind tunnel stuff. The question, I assume people want answered is: "which disc goes the farthest"? This is not answerable with a Byron type machine. Byron could only answer very narrow questions like: "which disc went farthest under no wind with an initial velocity of X, a launch attitude of X, a trajectory angle of X, and a hyzer angle of X. No one disc would be a consistent winner when the initial launch data has to be changed for the characteristic of the disc. And, this ignores wind conditions, grip interface, rim style interface, (neither of which would be a concern of Byron, but would matter to a real live thrower), and throwing style.

Incidently, I made relatively simple hand held mini launchers that worked perfectly for launching minis up to around 90 mph. I assumed this could be scaled up to launch golf discs. The minis traveled fast enough to penetrate through 3/4" thick gaylord boxes. That was impressive enough to dismantle the launchers. In other words, the technology is very simple to apply, but it is for no practical reason. Byrons don't throw discs, people do.

The idea I heard wasn't necessarily about making a disc tester but to have "robot" battles where portable versions of these launchers would be taken onto a course and "play" each other. Then, maybe in the future, they might take on real players like IBM's "Deep Blue" has done against chess players. :cool:

Incidently, I made relatively simple hand held mini launchers that worked perfectly for launching minis up to around 90 mph. I assumed this could be scaled up to launch golf discs. The minis traveled fast enough to penetrate through 3/4" thick gaylord boxes. That was impressive enough to dismantle the launchers. In other words, the technology is very simple to apply, but it is for no practical reason. Byrons don't throw discs, people do.



Clay pigeon launcher...

I just noticed that the flight characteristics of the Skeeter have been changed on Innova's web page.

Does that mean new Skeeters will not fly with 0 turn and 1 fade (how it was originally listed) or does that mean that Skeeters have always be -1 turn and 1 fade?

My first run Skeeter is crucial in my bag but it does tend to turn A LOT after release. I typically use it for holding longer anhyzer lines. I just want to know for future reference, incase my Skeeter ever gets too beat up or lost.



Hey Dave,

I never saw an answer to this question and I just lost my First-Run Skeeter. I put it in a river somewhere in South Carolina...it's gone for good and lost forever :(

Do the new Skeeters fly like the first-runs? Prime Discs has 18 first-runs left so I'm wondering if I need to stock up...


Features:

# Speed 4
# Glide 5
# High Speed Turn 0
# Low Speed Turn +1



Innova now lists it as a -1 HST which is where the confusion comes from for me.

Maybe something like a baseball pitching machine? You can control speed and curve.

I just noticed that the flight characteristics of the Skeeter have been changed on Innova's web page.

Does that mean new Skeeters will not fly with 0 turn and 1 fade (how it was originally listed) or does that mean that Skeeters have always be -1 turn and 1 fade?

My first run Skeeter is crucial in my bag but it does tend to turn A LOT after release. I typically use it for holding longer anhyzer lines. I just want to know for future reference, incase my Skeeter ever gets too beat up or lost.



Hey Dave,

I never saw an answer to this question and I just lost my First-Run Skeeter. I put it in a river somewhere in South Carolina...it's gone for good and lost forever :(

Do the new Skeeters fly like the first-runs? Prime Discs has 18 first-runs left so I'm wondering if I need to stock up...


Features:

# Speed 4
# Glide 5
# High Speed Turn 0
# Low Speed Turn +1



Innova now lists it as a -1 HST which is where the confusion comes from for me.



I don't think I ever saw the original question. Sorry. I think the ratings were changed because the Skeeter in DX wasn't quite as hss as the Star. I don't know if we are going to stay with -1 or not. We may go back to the 0 rating with the next run, but we haven't tested them yet. At worst, it will be about a -1/2, but we don't use halves. We will run some in R-Pro, which should give more durability, along with extra grip.

Hey Dave,

Do you have any information yet regarding pigs in star or champ plastic? My pro's are getting awfully beat.

Thanks,
Trey

Hey Dave,

Do you have any information yet regarding pigs in star or champ plastic? My pro's are getting awfully beat.

Thanks,
Trey



I don't think it is possible to make them under the weight limit in Star or Champ. We can try again with Star light like we use for Bosses.

Thats understandable,

Look forward to hearing results from the tests!

Thanks again,
Trey

Dave,

I have some 165g and 166g star wraiths that are so overstable they wont even flip over in a headwind, but i can flip a new 168g pro destroyer with no wind at all. Are the light star wraiths supposed to be so overstable? and are the light star destroyers and bosses way overstable too?

Thank you

Dave,

I have some 165g and 166g star wraiths that are so overstable they wont even flip over in a headwind, but i can flip a new 168g pro destroyer with no wind at all. Are the light star wraiths supposed to be so overstable? and are the light star destroyers and bosses way overstable too?

Thank you

We have been using a new material for the large rimmed light Star drivers. It does make the lighter weights more stable. The Wraiths were least affected so you might have gotten a particularly stable one. Pro is a different material entirely and can produce its own range of stability, but is usually less stable in Wraiths.

Our new material is perfect for our new Devilhawk we just started production on.

can you please speak more about the devilhawk. and do you mean r-pro when you say new material?

Here come all the devilhawk stories

check the date fella's!!!!!!

Dave D is actually Chuck Norris in disguise

Our new material is perfect for our new Devilhawk we just started production on.



:DNice Dave :D

;)

Dave,

I have some 165g and 166g star wraiths that are so overstable they wont even flip over in a headwind, but i can flip a new 168g pro destroyer with no wind at all. Are the light star wraiths supposed to be so overstable? and are the light star destroyers and bosses way overstable too?

Thank you

We have been using a new material for the large rimmed light Star drivers. It does make the lighter weights more stable. The Wraiths were least affected so you might have gotten a particularly stable one. Pro is a different material entirely and can produce its own range of stability, but is usually less stable in Wraiths.



Can you make a 150g Boss with the new material?

Can you make a 150g Boss with the new material?



We have already run some R-Pro bosses to test from 140 to 171gms. So far with limited testing, they appear to work well. They will receive more extensive testing this weekend at the High Desert Distance Challenge and La Mirada. The lighter ones are easier to throw farther.

Question: which colors of Epic are Eco Star, and which stamp colors are the most stable? and will it be available in Nightshift? if you stabilize only part of it (the super cool-flying part) would it be Afternoon Shift? i don't think i'd care for the Morning Shift version but you're the expert!

Can't wait to try that Beelzebird*!



<font color="#FFEC8B"> "Beelzebird" copyright 2009, me me me
PDGA Approved </font>

Dave, I heard Innova made a test run of Zephyr's in champion plastic this past November. My question is, where they ever released to the public and where can you get one of them?

Unless they made another run since then, the first test run indicated some additional work was needed to get them to mold well in Champion.

They did not mold well. We couldn't keep them under 200 gm.

150 bosses of any material would be great. Assuming the tests continue going well, when would they hit the market? Awesome! thanks

Mr. Dave, The Superhero is the same thing as Hero disc type 235 Right.

Is "Nightshift" a slang term for a disc variance, or is it actually referring to discs made on the graveyard shift?

If so, what is different about those discs? They should be molded under approximately the same temp and pressure, the only difference I can think of is that the temperature and water content of the raw plastic beads could vary slightly as the ambient conditions change, or that the cooling rate would also vary, depending on the ambient conditions.

But since we are talking about SoCal, how much change could there be? :)

150 bosses of any material would be great. Assuming the tests continue going well, when would they hit the market? Awesome! thanks



I'm not sure when we would be able to market them, but Hero Discs will shortly have a limited amount of 150 class ready fairly soon. You will have to ask Sam Ferrans through the Hero Disc site. We were only able to make a limited amount because the mold is tied up making Champion and Star. We did some flight testing today and the sample run is producing discs that are a little more stable than the first test shots. Even the very lightest we tested (152gm) were more stable than the original test shots. I think this is okay as these should wear in over time and start to mimic the originals which had a nice slow turn.

Is "Nightshift" a slang term for a disc variance, or is it actually referring to discs made on the graveyard shift?

If so, what is different about those discs? They should be molded under approximately the same temp and pressure, the only difference I can think of is that the temperature and water content of the raw plastic beads could vary slightly as the ambient conditions change, or that the cooling rate would also vary, depending on the ambient conditions.

But since we are talking about SoCal, how much change could there be? :)



Night Shift refers to the PM shift which took a few liberties with the formula of plastics we were using. One of those liberties produced the Star plastic prototypes which we originally referred to as Night Shift.

Is "Nightshift" a slang term for a disc variance, or is it actually referring to discs made on the graveyard shift?

If so, what is different about those discs? They should be molded under approximately the same temp and pressure, the only difference I can think of is that the temperature and water content of the raw plastic beads could vary slightly as the ambient conditions change, or that the cooling rate would also vary, depending on the ambient conditions.

But since we are talking about SoCal, how much change could there be? :)



Night Shift refers to the PM shift which took a few liberties with the formula of plastics we were using. One of those liberties produced the Star plastic prototypes which we originally referred to as Night Shift.



I hope they got a bonus :)

I am trying to find some information about the 2007 am worlds stamped 1st run cros. I just sold one of these and the buyer says its a spider because the bottom is marked SP. Was it a 1st run cro or a spider? I thought it was a cro but no longer have the disc to compare to a cro/spider to see what it is. Can anyone help? Does anyone have one of these in which they could compare to a cro or spider. THanks in advanced for any help. Mike

Hi Dave,
saw that the new Discmania GM was released, which Gremlin mold did you use?

Some early cros were marked as a spider by mistake. This was documented in one of these Dave D threads. Spiders have beads and Cros don't.

Hi Dave,
saw that the new Discmania GM was released, which Gremlin mold did you use?



Original, I believe. Roc like flight, but faster and longer.

Some early cros were marked as a spider by mistake. This was documented in one of these Dave D threads. Spiders have beads and Cros don't.




So r u saying that a cro is spider without the bead?

Cro's have a small micro bead if you look close.

Some early cros were marked as a spider by mistake. This was documented in one of these Dave D threads. Spiders have beads and Cros don't.




So r u saying that a cro is spider without the bead?



No. Its just an easy way to tell them apart.

I can't wait to try the lightweight test R-Pro Boss. This could be a fun disc to throw.

They are out now.

Thanks for these Dave---are they flat or domey in the lower weights?

Thanks for these Dave---are they flat or domey in the lower weights?



They're kinda medium. Slow turn. Weights went anywhere from about 140g or so, up to 170g or so. Most were low 150s

Hey Dave, i was just wondering why DX full rocs have been discontinued? They were the best currently produced rocs in my opinion, the flat top makes them feel really nice in the my hand also. thanks

Hey Dave, i was just wondering why DX full rocs have been discontinued? They were the best currently produced rocs in my opinion, the flat top makes them feel really nice in the my hand also. thanks



The Full Color Rocs were done on the East Coast. They ran out of the materials necessary to color them. I think they may still do some type of flat Roc that doesn't have the full color though.

I second the flat top rocs, pretty please Dave. Ill buy you a frozen yogurt ;-)

Here are some Flat Tops that go thru the Full-Color Process but are hotstamped... For your throwing enjoyment.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3571/3410951389_24e96dcbaa.jpg

http://discgolfclub.org/proshop/index.php?main_page=product_info&amp;products_id=321

Innova East is running the batch of DX Rancho Rocs through the old full color machine to ensure they are flat for us... They are charging us a little more for it but if you want a Ching Roc... this is close as you are going to get in new stock.

It was the machine that applied the full-color stamps... Well, the full-color stamps are no longer available, but the machine that applied the stamps is!!! Innova has agreed to run these Ranchos through that machine guaranteeing a true Flat Top Roc... Tired of digging thru stacks of Rocs for that perfect top? Want to stop ordering 5 discs just so you can get 1 that is "good enough"?

Pay for one and get a flat one... Pay for two and get two flat ones... Pay for three and get three flat ones... you get the idea.

http://discgolfclub.org/proshop/index.php?main_page=product_info&amp;products_id=321


The Zonedriven Guys have a batch of them too with the bald kung-fu guy on them too - max weight and all white.

I second the flat top rocs, pretty please Dave. Ill buy you a frozen yogurt ;-)



With sprinkles on top!!! Flat tops are the best!!!

Are you planning on running any more Champ Bosses like the test run that came out with all the bubbles in the rim? I have really come to enjoy those.

Thanks for these Dave---are they flat or domey in the lower weights?



They're kinda medium. Slow turn. Weights went anywhere from about 140g or so, up to 170g or so. Most were low 150s



Dave, for someone that can throw a Destroyer 420' (pretty common), would these be over or under?
What would the optimal flight path be for one of these? i.e. Hyzerflip, high S-turn, straight at it?
I'm assuming you would never throw this in a headwind. Is this true?

Thanks for these Dave---are they flat or domey in the lower weights?



They're kinda medium. Slow turn. Weights went anywhere from about 140g or so, up to 170g or so. Most were low 150s



Dave, for someone that can throw a Destroyer 420' (pretty common), would these be over or under?
What would the optimal flight path be for one of these? i.e. Hyzerflip, high S-turn, straight at it?
I'm assuming you would never throw this in a headwind. Is this true?



No, these are not for headwinds unless you are only throwing 300-350. In that case, they would be fine. Hyzer flip is probably the way to go with these discs. Nose angle (from down to up) on release will determine whether the discs stays over, comes back slowly, or comes back medium.

Are you planning on running any more Champ Bosses like the test run that came out with all the bubbles in the rim? I have really come to enjoy those.



No. Those were an accident and our retailers don't like bubbles even though bubbles don't affect the flight.

Are you planning on running any more Champ Bosses like the test run that came out with all the bubbles in the rim? I have really come to enjoy those.



No. Those were an accident and our retailers don't like bubbles even though bubbles don't affect the flight.



I don't mean that they need the bubbles, just that have the same shape and really fast, overstable flight.

Are you planning on running any more Champ Bosses like the test run that came out with all the bubbles in the rim? I have really come to enjoy those.



No. Those were an accident and our retailers don't like bubbles even though bubbles don't affect the flight.



I don't mean that they need the bubbles, just that have the same shape and really fast, overstable flight.



All of the newer Champion and the lighter weights in Star should be similar.

Are there any plans for Rhynos being made R-pro?

Are there any plans for Rhynos being made R-pro?



Yes. Rhynos, Pigs, and JKs will be made of the new R-Pro. We are currently testing Cros, Ontario Rocs and Rancho Rocs in R-Pro too.

i putt with the cro, and would love to get some in r-pro...

Hi Dave,
I saw some stiffer R-Pro Darts a local pro had.
They felt great. (The regular run was too floppy for my tastes)

Will any of the discs you plan to run in R-Pro be this stiffer version, or is the plan to have them all like the Dart?

Thanks,
Bob

any idea if and when r-pro boss will be produced for all of us to get? also wondering about an eta on r-pro rocs?

Dave, have the Discmania drivers been run in R-Pro yet? The DD was a little flat for my taste in the S Line; did they dome up a little more in R-Pro (kinda like a wraith)?

Hi Dave,
I saw some stiffer R-Pro Darts a local pro had.
They felt great. (The regular run was too floppy for my tastes)

Will any of the discs you plan to run in R-Pro be this stiffer version, or is the plan to have them all like the Dart?

Thanks,
Bob



Hi Bob,

Only the Dart, Aviar, Rhyno, XD and probably Pig, (because of the structure), will be run in the softest Dart type. Cros,Rocs, and Spiders are being tested in the firmer type. We are also testing a very firm Rubber Wood type in Aviars and Rancho Rocs.

any idea if and when r-pro boss will be produced for all of us to get? also wondering about an eta on r-pro rocs?



I think some will be available on a limited basis soon. Full production will depend on how this first run is accepted.

Dave, have the Discmania drivers been run in R-Pro yet? The DD was a little flat for my taste in the S Line; did they dome up a little more in R-Pro (kinda like a wraith)?



We will test shoot the Discmania driver line in R-Pro fairly soon. The PD and CD will be first. So far R-Pro does not seem to dome up much. We have two types of Star. One that domes more than the other. It will be up to Discmania to tell us which they prefer. You could email them and let them know of your preference.

I love the feel of the R-pro boss and I was able to bomb it really well yesterday with a lot of glide. My only problem with it is that it tears up really quickly. I hit a bird feeder on my first throw and it put a big dent in it and then I hit a tree and not hard either and it put a small gash in it. I would say this disc is useful but not on holes with a lot of trees. But I will probably use it alot on holes that have wide open areas to really let the disc do its work

Please made some more R-Pro Bosses... especially in lighter weights. I love my 158g that I got today. Very fun to throw!

Post deleted by zaschenbach

Dave,
Why are the 12x campion firebirds so domey? Is there a possibilty that you guys will start making the 11x again, they are they best because they are flat.

i putt with the cro, and would love to get some in r-pro...



I tried the R-Pro Cro yesterday to putt. I works pretty well. I believe I'll be using it, (it's in my bag anyway), when the wind becomes too strong for my Dart. Thanks for the suggestion.

IS there any hope that Innova will return to the plastic blend used for 11x KC Pro Rocs?

Dave,

Amswer this for me rumors fly around so I'd like to hear from the Man himself Why did you guys stop making CE plastic IMO it's the best most consistent plastic there is even used they are still true would love to see discs made this way again even if the price was a bit more than Champion I think they'd sell really well

when do you expect discgolfvalues to be selling some the the r-pro cros?

Dave,
Why are the 12x campion firebirds so domey? Is there a possibilty that you guys will start making the 11x again, they are they best because they are flat.



That is largely up to the plastics manufacturer. We will if we can.

IS there any hope that Innova will return to the plastic blend used for 11x KC Pro Rocs?



What is it that you want to see exactly? A shape? A feel?

Dave,

Amswer this for me rumors fly around so I'd like to hear from the Man himself Why did you guys stop making CE plastic IMO it's the best most consistent plastic there is even used they are still true would love to see discs made this way again even if the price was a bit more than Champion I think they'd sell really well



The manufacturer changed the plastic we were using. We can no longer get it.

when do you expect discgolfvalues to be selling some the the r-pro cros?



I am not sure if this is going to be a special release or a limited test release. It might just be a special release by both coasts. I will have to check at work on Monday after I talk with the East coast office.

Dave,

Amswer this for me rumors fly around so I'd like to hear from the Man himself Why did you guys stop making CE plastic IMO it's the best most consistent plastic there is even used they are still true would love to see discs made this way again even if the price was a bit more than Champion I think they'd sell really well



The manufacturer changed the plastic we were using. We can no longer get it.



Have you made any recent attempts to immitate "CE" plastic in any way? If you havent, would you try?

Dave,

Amswer this for me rumors fly around so I'd like to hear from the Man himself Why did you guys stop making CE plastic IMO it's the best most consistent plastic there is even used they are still true would love to see discs made this way again even if the price was a bit more than Champion I think they'd sell really well



The manufacturer changed the plastic we were using. We can no longer get it.



Have you made any recent attempts to immitate "CE" plastic in any way? If you havent, would you try?



We have made numerous attempts, recent and past. All we can do is request plastics and test them. We do that all the time. We have talked to several plastics engineers with no success. Apparently making plastics is no more scientific than what we do on our end. Every batch of plastic we get is only guaranteed within that batch. They do not guarantee that the next batch will be the same. Often, there will be a difference. Sometimes a lot.

That makes a ton of sense and I imagine that is why ALL manufacturer's plastics will continue to evolve over time. I also imagine that if an attempt was made to get a plastic with a specific formula guaranteed that it would be something crazy like 10x the price.

What other things are the plastics you guys order used for?

Also, I've witnessed your patience (Dave D) through the years when being asked that same question over and over and over (CE)...What is the craziest theory you've been questioned about with a straight face concerning the demise of CE plastic?

IS there any hope that Innova will return to the plastic blend used for 11x KC Pro Rocs?



What is it that you want to see exactly? A shape? A feel?



No. The 11x plastic is as tough as a boot. The new KC Pro plastic is much more like DX. In fact I have some DX Rocs in white that indistinguishable from the "gooey soft" KC Pro Rocs.

The 11x Rocs were hard as a rock.

What other things are the plastics you guys order used for?

Also, I've witnessed your patience (Dave D) through the years when being asked that same question over and over and over (CE)...What is the craziest theory you've been questioned about with a straight face concerning the demise of CE plastic?



I don't know what the plastic is normally used for. It is just a grade of urethane. It didn't cost any more than any other grade and has the same specs on paper. The theories weren't very elaborate as I recall. Just that it cost too much or we would never sell a second disc. The second part was a concern initially, but that concern proved to be unfounded.