hey now...I used to love the phoenix...it flew great until it got run over by a car and turned very understable. I do still have it though...right next to the viper that got run over by a bulldozer at McClure in Tulsa

:D
Thanks Dave, Ill check it out....
Over 3" of rain in Windsor, NorCal today....

Look out SoCal, its heading your way /msgboard/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

:eek:Oh no, that would mean my lakes would fill up, which would eat more disc, which would mean I would have to sell more Innova Disc, which would give Dave more job security. ;)
BTW Dave how many floaters do you sell and are they any good. I may be in the market for them. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Dragon and Dolphin are the only Floaters from Innova i have heard of.....

Dragons are currently the only one available.

ive heard of these "floaters", whats the deal with them?

They float.


:)



The Dragon is actually pretty fun to throw.

I think people who play near water and don't want to lose their disc like to use floating discs. The dragon is a long range 150 gm driver that is relatively easy to throw and floats in water.

they go pretty far if you throw them right...they roll too! I wish innova had made a heavier one, even if it didn't float!

I can get the new Dragons to fly farther than my Beasts!! :cool:

Now if you could only get them to swim to shore :D

If you can find DX Sharks or Cobras in the 130s, those float too. and they fly surprisingly far.

Dave, have the Champion Gremlins been run yet? Will they be available soon?
Thanks :)

:confused:
OK Dave heres a reach into your memory banks...
I have a pair of Discs..They say Experimental "Tachyon LF with 'Nosebead'" on a label on the bags they came in.
Real weird bead on the top of the rim not the bottom as found on some discs....

Any back ground on these??..I was told that there were VERY FEW when I won them in a raffle nearly 10 years ago :D

They have an Ontario stamp on the bottom...
I have pictures I can email if your interested...

Lou, no the Champion Gremlins have not been run yet. I anticipate some time in January.

Mike, yes I remember those. Hold on to them. The mold does not exist any more.

Mike, yes I remember those. Hold on to them. The mold does not exist any more.


:o
Not something to put out on EBay huh.. :)

Hey Dave

What is online for the Candy Fund Raisers this year?

Is it still TLs or something different?

Mike, the fundraisers are Starfires mainly. This time with I-dyed and glow types too. Sam has the full list of what's available.

Dave,
Are the Omega's Aviar molds in different plastic, or are they a variation of the Aviar? Thanks.

The Omegas are in different plastic, which molds up lower profile, soft, and grippy.

Hello Dave,
Have you tried the roc in the new glow plastic?

Thanks for any help.

JMlnc, no I have not tried the glow Rocs. Sorry. Maybe someone else on the discussion board can help out.

The new glo Rocs are excellant flyers. once the plastic starts to get broken in they get a little stiffer, almost like an old San Marino. The plastic also seems to take more of a beating, definately one of my personal favorites.

Paul I answered your MTA roc question on the distance thread. I guess I should have answered it here. Anyway, they are available. If I find out to the contrary, I will repost, and make some. The Roc is running now.

Dave,
You mentioned that this year's fundraisers will mainly be Starfires. Does this mean that TL's will be in normal production? And will we see non-fundraiser Starfires anytime soon? Thanks.

I agree...the new glo rocs are really nice. I like their flight better than my Ontario or CE. Too bad I can't really use them in the winter up here.

Thanks Dave.

Suprfreaq, TLs will remain as tournament only discs.

Dave, what will the suggested retail price range be for TLs in 2004?

We are discussing that. I am for lowering slightly. It's a real good disc that deserves wider distribution IMO.

In my very honest and ever-so-humble opinion >>> I don't wish to buy(or)throw(or)lose a $25 disc: period. (And I won't! :p )
C'mon Dave! TLs for us all!! Make them available in some kind of in-between plastic...like SE!!! (...as has been discussed before here...many times)

We intend to make the older pro version but they're different. They're domier and flippier, and don't last as long. On the other hand, many people like the grip better. At what price point would you consider the Candy TL to be a pretty good buy?

I'm not recalling the 'pro' version? Proline??
I remember SE TLs (and SE Ts for that matter!), CE TLs, and the fundraisers from this last year...which cost me $30 of my prize-winnings...and I splurged 'because' it was my first PDGA win!
Overall, why not price them as any other candy disc...around $15. $18 tops! /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif :D

Circle 2, I was under the impression that the suggested price was $20 to $30. I could be wrong. We are definitely reviewing the candy TL's suggested price. What I have been hearing might not have been what was actually going on. Although I don't want to make any unilateral decisions, my input will be to suggest a $15 to $25 range for the TL. Thanks.

Paul I answered your MTA roc question on the distance thread. I guess I should have answered it here. Anyway, they are available. If I find out to the contrary, I will repost, and make some. The Roc is running now.



Dave, can you let me know about the availability of the Classic Roc in the MTA weight you spoke of earlier? I believe you said in 1986 you set an MTA record of 14 seconds with one weighing 103 grams. Is it still possible to order 103 gram Classic Rocs from Innova? At a few retailers I checked online, it looked like 150 grams was the lightest weight offered.

Robj, I believe Wright Life, and Discovering the World, (two large mail order stores), have the current 113 gm version. The original version of the Classic Roc, is probably no longer available. You might check with those stores though, they carry a lot of other disc sport stuff.

Dave, I see the Champion Whippets only go down to 165. Are there any stable Champion discs is the 150 range? You know, Firebirds, Banshees, Monsters or Vikings?

Banshees go down into 150 class. We were playing with them at the last Japan Open. Firebirds would have to be DX that low. In Candy, Firebirds aren't all that stable at 150 gm. And, yes, I like to play with girls. :D

what is the TL?

Teebird Less stable

The full answer is a variation of a TeeBird that is Less stable, Longer gliding, and more Leopard-like. It is better for long turn over shots than the regular T and is a better finesse disc to the regular Ts power.

Here is an open question...

What is the most overstable disc on the mkt... all brands? I believe it is the new Candy Viper. Anyone have any different opinions?

most stable i've seen...

candy viper
new plastic speed demon
candy glo banshee

don't forget the Z-Xtreme

Dave (http://www.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=Equipment&Number=120737&fpart=&PHPSESSID=)

Here is an open question...

What is the most overstable disc on the mkt... all brands?



My candy monster is a stable pig!!

Overstability equaling 'least distance' due to fade...? A 'slow' disc is needed...

'New' Demon G5i hands down! (IMHO! /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif)

Another vote for the new plastic speed demon.

so, how come this TL isnt on the innova site? how new is it? is it just that its not different enough from the teebird to warrant its own name or something? im just interested in this disc, and want to know more about it. it sounds to me from your explanation dave, like an archangel.

speed demon - nothing else compares. Z-Xtreme is probably the longest lasting overstable driver but I have not thrown the new Evolution Speed Demon. I had an older H/E Speed Demon which held up to all kinds of abuse.

The TL has been around as long as the regular Teebird. It was in special edition and candy. It is in fundraising now. It is basically a straight flyer with a slight turnover. Not like an Archangel that much. DX Archangels have much more turnover.

The TL is the perfect balance between speed and glide.

Is it just me or is the Candy Rhyno thicker/taller than the other molds? I love the rhyno as a putter and would love to use the Candy ones, but they just don't feel the same. The Candy Rhynos ARE thicker is my contention. Do I need to make some post-production modifications like spinning it on my carpet with a lot of pressure to "shave" it down a bit? :D How about some 60 grit paper? If I were able to slice a 32nd off the bottom, would this be legal? It just seems to be a fatter disc overall. Ever try putting a bead or thumbtrack on the XD? Or would that just make it into an Aviar or Rhyno, respectively? :confused: Anyways, I can't wait for the Candy XD and Gremlin. :p

I gotta agree with Danny, though the Champion Beast is better at both, but not together... (Or maybe I just haven't figured them out as much. Yet!) :p

Dave, I guess my beef is that one can buy Rocs in 3 plastics from around $8 to $25+...though a recent post stated that '01 CE Rocs are fetching $100-$140! (Still have my unthrown 175g '01 /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif)
On the other hand, Tee Bird TLs are only available as candy-fundraisers with a $20-$30 SRP. How's 'bout a way for the working class to own and throw a TL, too...after all, IMHO, the TL is the best disc for my wimpy arm (325-340ish avg max)...and my reserves of SEs are gettin' kinda low!

Yes, TLs rule. I dream of the day when there are runs of them released as normal discs instead of candy fundraisers. As much as people drool about them over the pdga message board it's hard to believe that the demand for them alone doesn't warrant them to be released as a regular disc. And yes, I still plan on buying up all the TL's that will be coming out in the new SE/old KC pro type plastic.

We hope to be testing the SE/Pro TLs next week.

Drooling on keyboard....the day is getting closer....se/kc tl's...oh happy day....

Dave what kind of plastic do you consider the new proline rhynos? They feel just like the old SE stuff.

I wasnt around when this may have been covered. Wondering what sort of discs we may eventually see in this se/kc plastic. Everything currently being run in KC and a teebird maybe eagle as well? probably not a roc but maybe a xd & gator?

It's the same plastic put in a permanent line. SE is special edition, not necessarily available more than once or twice.

Actually a Roc may be one of the first, but it looks like it's going to be distributed by the 2004 World's for a while. The next discs will be the ones that people liked in the past.

Was my question already answered previously or was it just so dumb as to not warrant the attention?

I have thrown both. A light Whippet has more float than a Firebird in the same weight range. A Firebird is faster though.
The New Champion edition Whippet I just picked up is one of the most overstable disc's I have thrown recently. Very cool :cool:

It had been a while since I had a Whippet, but these new WX dont seem to be the same mold as the old ones....the candy vipers seem that way too.

Of course, I havent held a new one, against an old one, to verify that, but in a discussion this weekned, a couple people felt that same way.

WX isnt very fast, but good and overstable.....

disc 19608, I couldn't figure out how to answer it. The mold is the same. I think it's inappropriate to talk about post production modification on the message board. Sorry.

Dave, Any idea what the status is of the book that's being written on disc golf disc's? Is S. Johnson the author? Was the 2500 disc a proto type for the SM Roc? If not which disc? Thx for your time. Rob

SE Roc, praise you Dave (typed while kissing feet). When you say that it will be sold through worlds does this mean that it will be a 25.00 fundraiser disc?

flynvegas, Stancil Johnson is the author of Disctionary. He is in the final stages. The 2500 was a pro type for the 3rd generation Hammer.

It will be a fundraiser disc, but I think the suggested price will be lower. I believe it will be in the $15 to $20 range, but that hasn't been finalized. That's just my input.

Dave, I've got a set of '83 World Games Eagle's. Yellow, orange, and pink. Do you recall the quantity or production numbers on these Eagle's? I've not seen many of the lighter weight yellow Eagle's, are they rare? Thx again for the info. Rob

flynvegas, there were a total of 10, 000 Eagles. The first 3000 were speckled orange. The remaining 7000 was divided between pink, orange, yellow, and blue, The blue were 130 gm. the yellow (chartruese) were 150s generally, the orange were 160s generally, and the pink were 170s generally.

Discs Unlimited lists something new called the ORC.

What is it?

It hasn't been released yet. It is being made only in Champion plastic. Similar in grip and speed to a Beast. Similar in flight to a Viking with more low speed overstability.

Dave, so is the ORC the new disc you've been saying will be released soon and a name wasn't given to yet? And of all names possible why name it the ORC?

MWynneJr, yes, the Orc is the disc. I get asked a lot about names. I like mythological creatures. I do get resistance from others here at Innova just about every time I come up with a name. They ask me why too. It seems that I could explain it every time, and they're still going to ask me about it next time. Double meanings are fun too. Funky spellings. Orq would have been good too, but I think Orc has more stuff. Why do you ask? Do you think it sucks? It's okay if you do. :)

Dave, I like it. And of course an Orc would have to be a couple of clicks more stable than a Warg.

No no, don't think it sucks, I'm all for creativity, looking forward to the disc. When will it be hitting the market?

ORC!!! LMAO.....are we gonna re-name the CONDOR, the GONDOR?

LOVE IT DAVE!!!

What is the intended niche of this disc?

Dave.. I see where you've been getting a lot of names lately--
Mythological Monster Vocabulary list (http://www.quisdom.com/fiction/F0001_monsters.html)

How about a Wyvern soon eh? Could be a combination of the current Roc/Dragon/Viper or even Cobra :D

Would a Warg be a cross between a Beast and a Wolf?

Schmack_Daddy, the intended niche is a higher power Beast. Or put another way, a straighter, more reliable Beast for higher power throwers.

Straighter and more reliable.....Hrmmm....9 speed, I assume?

Sounds nice.....

Same speed as a Beast.

Thats awesome!!! Sounds like a disc I need in the bag!!! :D

When are they going to be released???

I have to get them certified first. I forgot. :o So...guessing. A week or so.

Dave,
Is the Orc a DX version of the Starfire? and if not will it be first released in DX or Candy plastic. I love the beasts and startfires, this one sounds like a keeper as well.
Thanks
Brian

MWynne,

Good list.

Maybe the next disc will be one that floats, called the "Kraken".

Or maybe we should save that name for a disc that is brittle in cold weather. :D

Brian, the Orc is only in Champion plastic. It will fit between the Beast and Starfire somewhere. Still a lot of testing to do. The heavier discs (172) I have thrown were more high speed stable than the lighter (164). The difference was more apparent into the wind.

Dave- Is it INN o va...or Inn O va ??? :confused:

I putt the accent on the first syllable, but other people here at Inn' o va put the accent on the second. In no' va It could be either, both were intended: Innova tion, and In nova.

Hey Dave,
Do you have any plans on releasing any of the champion discs in Black? Perhaps the Black color doesn't take as well as the old CE or DX. I collect black discs and was just curious. And looking forward to the Orc! I have trouble turning my Beast over so hopefully this will be more overstable.

Dave-

Who does the illustrations for your DX discs? The Gremlin, in particular, is a great drawing. And how come they're not on the Champion versions?

Keep the mythological names coming!

boru, we have different artists doing different illustrations. I believe the Gremlin is by Joe Giebel from Michigan. Joe is also a pro level disc golfer. We make them different to try to help differentiate for the retailers and customers.

is it true that the Gremlin is coming back?

I honestly think if you could put icons from DX plastic discs on Champion discs without any text printed would really be cool. Like maybe the uhh sticker you're currently selling for Beast and a Roc (they're for sale at some online shops) where you also have your Innova logo on the side. Put that on a disc, that'd really be cool. I really liked my '03 Champion Roc cuz of its simplicity, just remove the US flag and there you have it, a good looking ROC disc.

Martin, the Champion Gremlin will be back I believe. I don't have the last word on this. It's a committee thing, but I am pretty sure.

Dave,

I am going to be getting an old Roc soon, and I wondered if you could tell me something about it.

This is a picture of it: http://i9.ebayimg.com/01/i/01/24/01/05_1.JPG

When were these rocs made? Is it just an old dx roc?

It looks to me like a Super (SE) Roc. They are Kick ***** discs. Super Grippy, Super Tough, nice and stable. Have not been made since around 2000 I believe.

aha, so finally the name is revealed, and also revealed that dave is a lord of the rings fan :) you just gained 10 thousand more points in my book, if that was even possible. i love the name, just to let you know. im stoked that the new disc is going to be called the Orc. however, i do think at some point in the future, you should name a disc after a non evil character, perhaps the Elf. what do you think?

That is what I thought it was. One of my friends has a super roc and it actually says super roc on it. So I didn't know.

...unless it's a proto-Super Roc!
It's too shiney to be a proto-KC or a proto-Rancho...I think.

Can't be that old. I can't tell if it's DX or if it's a Super Roc. If it's shiney and springy, it's a Super Roc. If it's dull and not springy when you bend it, it's a special stamp DX. I don't think it is more than 5 years old. If it says Rancho Cucamonga on the bottom instead of Ontario, it certainly isn't.

The Orc is a schweet name! Dave, will you please make a Pterodactyl?

I was actually thinking of something close. Pteranodon or most likely pterosaur. I would probably spell it pterosoar.

I was actually thinking of something close. Pteranodon or most likely pterosaur. I would probably spell it pterosoar.



Something with that name should be larger than the Condor...

Bigger than the Condor, bigger than the Pulsar.... THE ALBATOSS!

I think you should go with the original spelling. Or you could have an entire "soar" line: the chain-eating, long-distance TyrannoSOARus Rex, The overstabe StegaSOARus, slow flying AlloSOARus, etc. And the Caveman putter!

How about a naming a disc based on sayings from different languages. I always thought a la ching would be a good disc name. A la ching. :D

How bou't the HOBBIT. It could be a stable, durrable, approach disc! Or the DWARF, a slow overstable durrable midrange disc! Or how about the IMPOSSIBLE, a new Innova understable disc...theres an idea!!

Wow, Matt, you have reached Harold's level with Albatoss. :)

How about the BIFF? Intimidate your opponents and smack the basket upside the head with the new BIFF> and special midrange, the McFly.

"Woah, nice BIFF!"

I think you should go with the original spelling. Or you could have an entire "soar" line: the chain-eating, long-distance TyrannoSOARus Rex, The overstabe StegaSOARus, slow flying AlloSOARus, etc. And the Caveman putter!



On those windy days, reach for the TRICERATOPS. It's the popular Rhyno mold in our ultra-stable new plastic, lead*. Never get blown off course again!

*Disclaimer: Not legal for use in PDGA events.

He must be rubbing off on me...

How bou't the HOBBIT. It could be a stable, durrable, approach disc! Or the DWARF, a slow overstable durrable midrange disc! Or how about the IMPOSSIBLE, a new Innova understable disc...theres an idea!!



Trees are no problem for the sloooooooooooooooooow-flying ENT . . . it just asks them to move.

And when all else fails, there's the GOLLUM, a squirrely, treacherous disc that somehow finds secret ways to the basket.

Ok, this is getting out of hand.

what about the NAZGUL, the disc that screeches so loudly while flying that trees and other obstacles fall down and out of the way with fright?

wouldn't that also knock down the basket too?

haha...hm...thats why innova then makes the new GANDALF basket!

Dave,

Now that you have Vikings and Valkyries, can Jotuns, Skraelings and Berserkers be far behind?

They're in line. :)

This one is my favorite from the mythological monster list:
Harpies - Slimy monsters with women's heads and birds' bodies.

Innova can put them out as a fundraiser disc so that TD's can tell everyone when they get them in "I Got a case of Harpies from Innova today" :)

Definitely on the list. :)

This one is my favorite from the mythological monster list:
Harpies - Slimy monsters with women's heads and birds' bodies.

Innova can put them out as a fundraiser disc so that TD's can tell everyone when they get them in "I Got a case of Harpies from Innova today" :)



ROFLWFHWAO.......good one Jim.....

Dave,

Now that you have Vikings and Valkyries, can Jotuns, Skraelings and Berserkers be far behind?



If they put out the Berserker, then they would have to use the rest of the characters from Soul Calibur II (the greatest PS2 game ever). The Nightmare, The Astaroth, and my personal favorite, The Taki (preferably in red).

I have been asked more than once about running out of names. :p As you guys can apparently tell, even if some of the names are facitious, there are a boatload of possibilities still out there. And some of them are way out there. ;)

so dave you never answered my question about the ELF, you know what would be a good name :)

I have an friend from Australia and he is looking for the " Pelican" disc. A surf crusing bird with great hovering capabilities. :D

ryan, Elf is pretty good, but sounds like Millennium's LF, and ELF. Don't even go to Fairy. :)

The Fairy would have to be exclusively in pink with a rainbow foil hotstamp. :)

After the fairy could come the unicorn which would be the more overstable version of the fairy but only offered in white with rainbow stamp (both sell huge in the Miami and San Francisco markets). :D Forgot to mention that both are offered as 150 class discs exclusively.

ahh man, that sucks. dont worry, i wouldnt want a disc called the fairy :) im just saying you gotta use another name from LOTR of a non evil character/species. also, when will these Orcs be available to buy?

After the fairy could come the unicorn



Never happen, disc nerd, 'cuz according to legend unicorns can only be controlled by virgins, which would make it useless to 99.999999999% of disc golfers. :p

Ryan, we sent them in to be certified today. I would imagine they will be available in a week or two.

That is true fore, but I bet some of these people haven't been laid for so long :( they might as well be considered born again virgins.

Dave,

I was just perusing the Innova website, and saw under Specialty Discs the Ace rated as -1/+1. Does this disc hold an anhyzer release well? It would seem like it would be great for turnovers on right turning holes.

Thanks.

I think the Ace most closely resemble the Leopard in flight. Maybe a little more high speed stable.

I saw on one disc review site that the rater gave the Ace almost identical numbers as the Leopard. Curiously on one online disc retailer they described the Ace as being similar to a JLS.

It is similar, in a very different material.

Based on your answers it sounds like the Leopard would make a slightly better turnover/roller disc than the Ace would.

Hawkgammon, Depends on your power, but generally I would say yes. If you are a higher power thrower, the Ace might be better. Having said that, I believe the Ace may only come in high sixties, so that may make a difference.

Dave,

I might make 300' with the Beast on a good throw. I prefer drivers to be 165g, and from what I see that is the only weight the Ace comes in which caught me eye.

At that weight the Ace may be more reliable than the Leopard at that weight.

If you like your drivers in 165g, than the Ace is the disc for you!

The Ace is ONLY available in 165 gms. No searching for the right weight!

Dave, I came across some mini-star stamped candy Spiders yesterday...are these the original CE Spiders? Or pre-Champion?
They also had a few discs from the Proline runs...ie Monsters, Leopards. A Gold mine of past runs?

The Fairy would have to be exclusively in pink with a rainbow foil hotstamp. :)



I sure <font color="red"> DiscGolfDude</font> already has bought out the entire stock of <font color="pink"> "Fairy's" :D

Circle 2,
If they are selling them for $25 resist the temptation. I succumbed, and they feel exactly like the current Champion Spider plastic. Not worth the price in my opinion when you can get the current for $13ish.

Dave, I came across some mini-star stamped candy Spiders yesterday...are these the original CE Spiders? Or pre-Champion?




They're CE Spiders. (If memory serves, there was only one run.)

Gotta disagree with Hawkgammon. While the CE Spiders do feel somewhat like Champion Spiders (IMO, Champion are tackier), they are more stable and much more durable. I've had a CE Spider in my bag since they first came out, and after hundreds of rounds, it still flies like it did when it was new. (I can say that with confidence because I have 9 other CE Spiders that have only been thrown on a practice field to compare it to.) YMMV.

Yeah, I agree with Felix. The CE spiders are stiffer than the Champ Spiders.

Oh, I got that Roc today(i posted the picture on a previous page). It feels like a super roc. It is shiney and not very stiff.

I also picked up 2 HD Hawks(one is for Dave McQuay).

**** fairies

dave, is this really first run plastic? RED (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=20851&item=3656142001&ssPageName=STRK:MEBBI:IT)

...is that a joke, and what the $%^&* IS it?
...getting back to the soon-to-be-available Orc, does this disc share a top or core mold with other discs, and is the stripper used a new one?

Steve, that's stuff I don't want to go into. Sorry

Si que claro.

Hey Dave, in an earlier post, you mentioned a Champion XD would come out sooner or later, any idea when?? I see you've got a Champion Rhyno out on regular production instead of fundraiser type disc, looking forward to getting one.

Wynne

I think the Champion XD is getting fairly close. February I believe.

cool. is the champion XD being introduced into the champion line full time, or will it be limited production like the champion whippet? thanks.

Are the Champion Rhynos made in the gummy plastic like the champion aviars?

Hey dave can you estimate the numbers for the Orc....like speed glide turn and fade?? that would be great thanks

Hmm. I think they meant to say Pro Rhynos. I know those are out. Didn't think they would switch from Pro to Champion plastic.


I saw the numbers for the Orc somewhere....hmm.

He meant Champion. There are now 3 plastics for the Rhyno. DX, Pro, and Champion. The Champions on my desk are pretty firm, but I think they are the same as the Champion Spiders. I have a clear one and a pearly one. They feel the same. I folded one in half, laid it on the desk and it was flat again in 10 seconds. I think the champion plastic seems a little less stiff in the putters due to the shape of the rim. A flat wide rim is going to be more rigid than a tall deep rim.

Yup I meant Champion Rhyno, they're out already, there's even one on sale on Ebay.

Full time for XD I hope, things could change.

Oooo! I can't wait to get my hands on a champion XD :cool:

Thanks, Dave ;)

Dave,

On the innova website they rate the New Innova ORC with the exact same numbers as the Starfire. I thought there was supposed to be a difference. Any info here?

Dave,

I use a 161-165 Champ Beast for Downwind throws around 400'. After a few throws with a new beast I turn it over. Obviously I can go to a heavier disc to avoid turnover, but get more D with a lighter disc (i guess due to my lack of snap). Will the Orc do well to avoid turnover in low weights, or just higher weights? I have several 170 gm starfires that i use in liu of heavier beast, so I prolly only would be interested in the lighter weight Orc. I thought i read one of your threads where you stated the Orc in the lighter weights was not as resistant to turnover as the heavier Orcs. My long winded question could be summarized as: Will I be able to see a difference between the beast and the orc after a few months of play?

Thanks

Erick

sclabuji, I haven't seen the numbers, but they are similar, the Starfire is more stable and more toward the Monster, the Orc is more toward the Beast

atreau3, I believe you will be able to see a difference as the Orc should always stay slightly more stable that the Beast at the same wear level, but that remains to be determined in reality. The Orc will come in lighter weights, but tend to mimick the Beast at slightly higher weights. The most stable thus far have been the heavy Orcs which then become closer to the Starfire with a somewhat different flight pattern. I personally like the Orc very much, and don't care for the Starfire even though the rating numbers are similar. To me, the Orc flies and behaves like a more stable Beast instead of a Starfire.

Dave, when you say something is the same speed as, or more/= stable as something else, is that proven on the testing field, in observations by yourself and others, or is it proven on paper, in a mess of coefficients and joules and LaGrange functions, etc.?

Steve, it is a combination of theoretical and empirical. Of course molding variations often screw up both. I do the theoretical design, observe empirically through testing and relay the info. When the testing is done, we can only assume things throughout the run. Lower weights are usually the big variable, but sometimes weird stuff happens with the heavier stuff too. Seems to be a never ending learning curve.

Thanks; it sounds quite involved. It also seems the "learning curve" is in a step spot, at least since when the X-Clone was my idea of state-of-the-art. Is any of the testing done by human arms, or is it all by machines [the nature of which, methinks, would be BYOB territory]?

Steve, if you mean flight testing, all of it is done by human arms. It's not just the specific flight of the disc we test, it's the fit to the person throwing too. We have several in house world champions doing the testing, as well as friends of mine, like Rob Wilson who test certain aspects of disc flight, throwability, and durability. I know how each of these people throw, so I can interpret the data fairly easily. If it were to be a stranger testing, it wouldn't mean as much, but it would still be valuable when added to other data.

Yes I did; much thanks.
...have I mentioned I like clear discs, lately? :D

Dave, I really like the champion plastic that is so pliable it is almost like jello -- i have only found champion beasts that are made of it. Are any of the champion discs in production now being made out of this kind of candy, and if so which models?

robj, yes several are made in the gummy bear plastic. Mostly it is the lighter weights of drivers like the Champion Valkyrie. Rhynos are made of this plastic too but they have a different structure so is doesn't quite feel the same.

Thanks for the info Dave. How light would I have to go? And are all Champion Valkyries at the lighter weights the gummy plastic?

Dave,

Yesterday I came across a Christmas Stingray that Innova sent out. It has the new stamp, and it feels like a champion stingray. Do you know if this is just a special stamped dx stingray or a champion stingray?

The stamp says, btw, "Merry Christmas from all of us at Innova"

robj usually the lighter you go the more gummy. For Valks, they are pretty gummy in 150 class. Not much at all in high 60s

Plankeye, they were champion stingrays.

Robj, in addition to a handful of gummy Beasts, Valks, and Rhynos, I have two Champion Vikings (156g, 159g), a Champion Firebird (167g), a Proline Spider (166g), and a Proline Leopard (157g) in gummy bear plastic. I have also seen, but did not end up buying, a Proline Monster in gummy bear plastic. (Champion Edition (CE) Valks and Leopards were also available in gummy bear plastic, mostly 150-class to the mid 160s.) My guess is that gummy Firebirds and Monsters are relatively uncommon, since I've never seen any others.

I have come across the odd gummy disc in the 169-172g range, but the vast majority have been167g or less.

dave, whats next as far as new discs go? are there any ideas for any new ones?

what the heck is gummy bear plastic?

Just melt a bag of gummi bears in a stock pot.. there you go, gummi plastic.

what the heck is gummy bear plastic?



Innova's high-end plastic is commonly referred to as "candy." It comes in several varieties, including straight candy, taffy, gummy bear. Gummy bear plastic is translucent, rubbery, and very grippy. It's generally found in 150-class and lighter weight discs

On difference between the varieties of candy is the amount of weighting agent added to the mix. Gummy bear has the least, straight candy the most. (There are probably other differences in the various candy recipes as well.)

Ryan, always have ideas for new discs, but need to come out with them at the right time. Next disc could be in a couple of months, but I can't say more than that.

Dave,
Any plans for FLs again?

I have come across the odd gummy disc in the 169-172g range, but the vast majority have been167g or less.



thanks for the info felix. a gummy viking sounds great. i only have found candy beasts in the gummy plastic, but i don't own many discs under 170 grams. i have one 169 gram gummy beast and a few 166 and 167's. I love the grippiness, and in cold weather the other day my cold fingers found the gummy plastic especially sweet. it was much tougher to grip the hard candy.

Tony, I hope so, that one is in my bag. It has not been discussed for resurrection as yet.

dave,
this may have been covered, but i couldn't find it so here goes... Are there any plans to modify the roc more specifically take the bead off ??? i have to say i love the what discraft got out of the buzzz...also how many of the special "special" winnie rocs with be illuminating the fairways?

rasboomer, neither has been covered. If you take the bead off a Roc, it is essentially a Shark. I don't know if that answers your question, but it's the best I can do for now. As for the Special Winnie glow Rocs: don't know a thing about them.

Dave
This thread lacks one important thing...

A hardy THANK YOU for answering so many questions, sometimes repeatedly.

So from me, and hopefully hundreds / thousands of others....

THANK YOU for your time.

fossil, thank you. You're very kind to say that. :)

THANK YOU DAVE!!!!!!

:cool:

more thanks dave, now howabout some candy san marino rocs? :D

Mos def, candy san marino rocs. Brilliant!!!

Candy San Marino Rocs, huummm
I think that would be close to the
Old Brick Hard (almost CE or Champion )Hammers
that were run last 5 or 10 years ago
or at least that's the last time I saw a new one.
D.P.

A candy Hammer ... now THERE'S a great idea!!!

I think I've seen a disc called a 'Harpie' someplace.
Not Innova. Maybe Gateway???
:confused:
Maybe not.

agreed. Candy 2nd run Hammer.

Question for Dave and or others.

Even on windy days I like to use the same style of discs I would use on a calm day. This means that on a 200 to 250 foot hole I still like to use a midrange. The problem is that there are few midranges that fly straight into a headwind. The G5i from Gateway certainly does (almost too much so). I have heard that the Gremlin also flies well into a strong headwind and was wondering if this is true?

Also, I use a Gator on light wind days since it is more stable than most.

Given this, is it likely that there will be a Candy/CE run of Gators sometime in the next millennium? If the Gremlin is very over-stable, is it likely there will be a Candy/CE run of the Gremlin?

CE Roc, candy shark and z-wasps work well in a headwind situation.

Lyle, the gremlins i've tryed have been candy with the exception of a 150g dx(super flippy) and they do hold nicely into a headwind. You may have trouble finding them as the "pro" gremlin was a trial run, but i think there were plans to make them again as champion gremlins. Dave has said that the candy gator will be attempted in the future.

A new DX Gator is Innova's most overstable midrange. An MRX is likely Discraft's candidate. Only the Gateway G5i Demon, already mentioned, is more overstable.
BTW, I believe the Gateway Scout is a notch below the Demon, overstability-wise...and maybe worth a look.
YMMV

I dont know for sure what class the Ram is in but i always used it as a midrange. it is definately the most overstable innova mold.

A Ram is most certainly more overstable than a Gator...no doubt! :o:cool:

Let's ask Dave, since this is his ??? thread...

Dave, what's your most overstable mold to date...and in what plastic?

Well, I don't exactly know, but the Whippet is now pretty overstable. Rhetty says the Candy Vipers are more overstable. The latest Rams are pretty overstable in DX. I don't personally have a need for discs that are that overstable so I only test them initially. Some of you are probably more familiar. I prefer a Firebird to all of those, but it is not as overstable. Sorry I couldn't help more.

I'm about ready to dump the CFR Viper out of my bag and pack in a DX Ram again because that Viper is so overstable is proving to be fairly un-usable. :o

Hey Rhett, are those CFR Vipers more overstable than the new Champion plastic Whippets?

Hey Rhett, are those CFR Vipers more overstable than the new Champion plastic Whippets?



The vipers are way more stable than the whippets, IMHO. I can throw my viper hard with annie and it lands like it was a firebird thrown with hyzer.

****, so it is as overstable as the speed demon?

I have never thrown a speed deamon but the CFR Viper is the most stable disc I've ever thrown. I cant imagine throwing something more stable. The viper I have is around 180 grams so I dont know if the deamon gets into weights that high. Sick, just sickly overstable :p

Dave, any chance of a candy plastic Ram anytime soon?

Thanks for all the input. Here is a little more info.

I have tried the Z wasp, not stable enough (it is about the stability of the MRV in my hands) also the MRX in X plastic which is even less stable in my hands. The Scout sounds interesting given how over-stable the G5i is but I have worried that it might really be significantly different than the G5i. Also I want the disc in Z or Candy plastic (I don't have much experience with the high-tech resins from Gateway as of yet). I like to buy a disc that feels good off the shelf and stays there as opposed to having to wear it in.

I want this disk for throwing on very windy days, 15 to 20 miles an hour and I prefer a midrange. I have thrown the Whippet DX and the Viper DX. While both are nicely over-stable they don't compare to the Z Extreme/Pro- Line Monster/Speed Demon which are so over-stable that I can only use them for thumbers or when I need a hyzer crash but they are also drivers and I would really prefer a midrange.

The two really interesting discs seem to be the Gremlin and the Ram. Does anyone know how the Gremlin and Ram compare to the Gator or the G5i (especially the Gremlin in Candy plastic)? Also, I don't even see the Ram on Innova's site anymore. I don't want to buy specialty discs preferring to stick with what is commonly available since I like the notion of ease of replacement. But if the Gremlin or Ram fall between the Gator and the G5i I would be willing to use them until they are readily available in Candy.

p.s. I just read a quick review of the Ram... Sounds very interesting. Does anyone have a review of the Gremlin?

Paul, we have not plans at this time to produce a Candy Ram at all..but it does sound catchy.

Hey Rhett, are those CFR Vipers more overstable than the new Champion plastic Whippets?



I've thrown both. The two are about the same stablity (heck, I walk to the left just carrying one of them) The speed demon is quite a bit faster, a little bit longer, and skips higher.

Yes, I agree it is slow. The Viper has a large rim which probably slows the disc down a bit. I do think it is more stable than the whippet, IMHO.

Dave,
I haven't seen the Football stamp used in a long time for new first run discs. Champion Star or Innova Bar stamps either. I really like the Football stamp the best. Can we see the return of any of these stamps on future first run discs? Would love to have a Football stamp Orc! Thx

Lyle,

I've fiddled around with the Gremlin quite a bit when it first came out. I was using the Proline version which isn't manufactured anymore. I found it to be overstable like a KC Roc. Straight and then the left fade. I think it is very similar to a Roc with the difference being the diameter. Roc is 21.7 & the Gremlin is 21.2. I have small hands so I liked the smaller diameter. My choice of a midrange eventually came down to the Gremlin or Spider, and I went with the Spider since it tended to go straighter and farther for me than the Gremlin did. If Spiders disappeared I would switch to a Gremlin though. The Gator was more overstable than the Gremlin for me.

flynvegas, the football stamp has been retired, with the bar stamp. The champion star will still happen at least occasionally.

Keep that star stamp coming Dave. Love that one. Wish there would be more on 1st runs.

I second seeing more of the star stamp, its really cool!

Lyle, I would rate candy Gremlins somewhere between a 10x Roc and a candy Shark in terms of stability. If Z-wasps aren't stable enough for you, candy Gremlins won't be either. My midrange disc of choice in windy conditions is either a Millenium Sentinel MF or a candy Rhyno. (Actually, my disc of choice would be a 2001 CE Roc, but I've only got one, and I ain't about to to break it out if there's even the slightest chance of losing it.) Neither are as overstable as a candy Monster or Z-xtreme, but both are fine wind discs with a reliable hyzer finish.

Dave,

Although I havent tried one myself, Ive heard from others that the "barry" beasts are a little more stable than the proline/reg. champ beasts. Was there any tweaking to the mold?

The Barry Beast seams more stable than the standard champion beast.

Nothing is longer than the dx beast!

suprfreak, there was no tweaking done to the mold, however the plastic was tweaked slightly. I was unaware that the perception was that they were a little more stable. There is always variation in candy. Less so with DX. The additional stability might be explained by normal variation or the guys running them might be doing it better. Thanks for the info.

Hey Dave,
Any idea when those glow beasts will be hitting the market? I haven't been able to find any as of yet. Thanks!

Nothing is longer than the dx beast!



Except the Orc. In my independant tests ,my Dx beast flys far with a little anhyser thrown on it ; however , my Orc flys further without any special tricks. JUST CRANK IT !!!!!!

Yes , it does fly farther than the CRUSH :eek:

Opps....did I say that. :o:D

Father than the Crush. I can't wait to throw mine tomorrow. Sweet!

Sorry, no I don't know about the glow Beasts.

Dave, have you ever considered running the Aviar putters in the Omega super soft plastic, or would you consider that to be redundant? Also I guess the super soft plastic would limit the effectiveness of the Big Bead Aviars as short range drivers.

Hawkgammon, I would consider it redundant, as the Omega supersoft covers that ground nicely. We do have Champion team members that use that putter like Micah Doruis. A very good putter himself.

Thanks Dave. I'll just keep my eye out for them.

Dave, I have a 2nd run CE EL that looks like it has wood chips in it like a 8x KC plastic. Is this an X out or have I found some rare collectable?

dave, on our local course the other day i found this excellent champion valkryie, im pretty sure its one of the first runs, or at least just an older one. its white with that champion star on it, and there is no weight. my question is, what would this disc do differently, being older and possibly of one of the first runs(i think anyways) compared to a new champion valk?

Nathan, the crap in it would make it an X out usually. The fact that it is EL makes it collectable. We don't run ELs any more.

Ryan, I really don't know what you have, but just about any disc with the star is valuable. Can't say what to expect from the flight as there are variations in each run, but the first two runs were generally on the more stable side. That doesn't necessaryily mean anything for any individual disc. That is why I don't like run numbers. Also, generally, but certainly not always, a flatter disc is faster and more stable, domey discs are less stable and have more carry. So, most of the time, you can look at a model and tell which is the more desireable for your needs.

Dave,

I'm trying to force myself to throw a roc... i used to when i started, then moved away from it to a CE Spider...

I have four rocs and wondered if you can compare them for me...

2002 CE Roc
2003 CE Roc
Rancho Full Color Roc
Ontario Hero Disc Roc.

Any help would be great.

Thanks,

Erick

erick, I can't help you on the CE comparisons, but maybe others on this thread can. As far as the Ontario vs Rancho comparison goes: The Rancho is generally a little more stable and finishes more overstable. The Ontario is a straight flier with less low speed overstability.

hey dave--how's the progress on se-type plastic? will we maybe see a se roc and tl in the near future? thanks again

Steven, progress is real good. Should be seeing something within a month or two.

Dave, will these disc carry the current champion type plastic price tag or will they cost as much as the fundraiser type discs?

Hey im looking for a champ (innova) disc thats behaves like a NEW KC roc (180g). So should i go for the shark or the spider?? which behaves more like a roc? thanks

Disc Nerd, I believe the first two offerings will retail for $15 and they will be part of the fundraising effort. That's about an average $10 less than candy though.

Dave, what about the San Marino Roc compared to the other two?

Question number two, a tough one; what about the standard plastic in your discs, since a couple years you called it dx, how did it developed since the first eagle in 82/83 ?

Do you make all your discs in Rancho, what happens in South Carolina?

Greetings from Sweden :D

Hi Kjell, the San Marino was more like the Rancho than the Ontario. The dx hasn't changed much since the beginning. The indivual ingredients have changed around as the supply changed, but basically is about the same. We are happy about it now, but would like to make it a little tougher if we could. All discs are made here. Innova East hotstamps or other decoration, and is the main distributor.

Hey im looking for a champ (innova) disc thats behaves like a NEW KC roc (180g). So should i go for the shark or the spider?? which behaves more like a roc? thanks



Neither a CE Shark or a CE Spider behaves like a KC Roc. The Shark is more overstable and the spider is more like a slightly overstable driver in a midrange disc (esp. the size and feel) I throw KC Rocs also and nothing is better. Stick w/ them. If you need a good winter disc for the color, go with a nice flat DX Roc. I've found the orange seems to be the most like a KC, most overstable colored DX. Or wait till the 2004 USDGC CE Rocs come out, I heard they will be out soon. :)

thanks very much