How would you compare STAR Kite to the beadless STAR Gremlin? Quite a bit more hi-speed understable & less lo-speed overstable? Glide-ier?

Dave,
What disc(s) would you compare the profile of the Kite to? I imagine that shape-wise it is more similar to the Goblin and Coyote(convex wing, beadless) than a Roc or Cobra.

How would you compare STAR Kite to the beadless STAR Gremlin? Quite a bit more hi-speed understable & less lo-speed overstable? Glide-ier?



The Star Kite is more high speed unstable, glidier, similar speed, less low speed overstability.

fast comet-like disc??? that would be cool

-Scott Lewis

Sounds interesting to me, too. Me likey the small-diameter mid (reference my avatar). I'll have to get ahold of Mark Molnar . . .

Sounds like a beat Roc right out of the box.

Dave will team members get a taste of the Kite anytime soon?

Deano... :cool:

Sounds like a beat Roc right out of the box.

Dave will team members get a taste of the Kite anytime soon?

Deano... :cool:



Might be something like a beat up Ontario Roc, but not a Cucamonga. It's domier and has more carry than either.

The team should be seeing some soon.

Any word yet on the possibility of Star Whippets ?

On the gummy side like the Star Skeeters !!!!!

Thanks Dave ,

Donny Olow

is the kite going to be like the stingray.

:p :o/msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

is the kite going to be like the stingray.


http://home.wideopenwest.com/~ebradley01/stupidposts.gif

:D

sleepy

sounds like a stable aero.

is the kite going to be like the stingray.



Yes, somewhat.

you guys want to use the new thread? would be easier

How stable is a fundraiser Star Teerex-X on the scale,
reg.St Tee-Rex, 0.......... St Max,10

you guys want to use the new thread? would be easier




i wish people would. some of us have dial-up. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
there are links at the beginning of the new thread to all of the older Dave D threads (including this one) -- so you will still be able to find old posts there easily.

Please CLICK HERE (http://www.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?C at=&Number=650595&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1) and go to the NEW Ask Dave D. THREAD (#3) (http://www.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=650595&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1) to post a message.

How stable is a fundraiser Star Teerex-X on the scale,
reg.St Tee-Rex, 0.......... St Max,10



Good question, but tough answer. Just estimating, I would say 5. If the same guy throws all three, I would say 5. Nose up or down orientations can produce big differences is flight paths. Nose down will cause the regular TR to flip, the TRX will hold and stay, the Max will stay for a much shorter time then cut back hard.

Hey Dave,

Do you have an estimate on a Star Roadrunner, timewise?

you guys want to use the new thread? would be easier




i wish people would. some of us have dial-up. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
there are links at the beginning of the new thread to all of the older Dave D threads (including this one) -- so you will still be able to find old posts there easily.

Please CLICK HERE (http://www.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?C at=&Number=650595&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1) and go to the NEW Ask Dave D. THREAD (#3) (http://www.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=650595&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1) to post a message.



:D

Hey Dave,

Do you have an estimate on a Star Roadrunner, timewise?



No, sorry.

That's gonna be a good disc.
Hey Dave!
What's it gonna take to get your tail out here to see Me and Dad?
Bring your money LOL!!! :D

The new ontario's that are with the fundraiser with Molnar.
Will you experiment with the special Blend with that particular mold?
RT

That's gonna be a good disc.
Hey Dave!
What's it gonna take to get your tail out here to see Me and Dad?
Bring your money LOL!!! :D



It's probably going to take you guys putting on a World's. I don't travel anywhere but local, Japan, Worlds, and USDGC anymore. I don't even go to Santa Cruz, Kansas City, or Nation Doubles anymore. I would like to see you guys and some Arkie golf courses, but it doesn't look likely. Thanks.

The new ontario's that are with the fundraiser with Molnar.
Will you experiment with the special Blend with that particular mold?
RT



Not this go round. Just Champion for USDGC and DX for custom stamping and fundraisers.

I think it's about time for a fresh thread, it's been 18 months since the last one was started. I can't even load the last thread to search through it for info anymore.

Dave -

I'm a big fan of the Pig, it might replace the first run champ gators I'm running low on. Can't wait to see the Pig in other plastics! Also, I'm throwing a champion Cobra right now and am very impressed, are they still in production, or is it time to stock up on those? I also love the Star Whippet, is that going to be regular production anytime soon?

Thanks,
Dion

I think it's about time for a fresh thread, it's been 18 months since the last one was started. I can't even load the last thread to search through it for info anymore.

Dave -

I'm a big fan of the Pig, it might replace the first run champ gators I'm running low on. Can't wait to see the Pig in other plastics! Also, I'm throwing a champion Cobra right now and am very impressed, are they still in production, or is it time to stock up on those? I also love the Star Whippet, is that going to be regular production anytime soon?

Thanks,
Dion



The Pig did take the place of the Gator for me. At first, I didn't think it had enough distance, but, like the Aviar, it goes as fast as you can throw it so you can get more than you think. We are not making Champion Cobras right now, but do have Star in CFR. The Star Whippet is also in CFR and not scheduled for main production.

Thanks Dave!

Whats the feedback on the Champion Cro been like?

We are not making Champion Cobras right now...



Does this mean that in the future you will be making more Flat Top Champion Cobras?

We are not making Champion Cobras right now...



Does this mean that in the future you will be making more Flat Top Champion Cobras?



No, it doesn't mean that, but it doesn't rule it out either. I would like to be able to make all our discs in all our plastics at some point in time, but we don't have the capacity or space right now. Right now, we have to pick and choose what we make.

I just "discovered" (means I found one) the Cobra and love it. Would love to see it in champion.

Dave,

I have been throwing the Superhero disc with my dog for some time and I really love the flight of this disc. I liked it so much I tried a Sonic, but the Sonic does not stay stable in dx plastic. Have you made Champion/Star sonics in golf weights? I would like to have one in my bag.

The champ Panther has been my favorite midrange for awhile now, throw it on a hyzer and it flips right up and glides forever. Spider is good too for high wind

I too like Panthers but a champ Cobra would be awesome.

I just "discovered" (means I found one) the Cobra and love it. Would love to see it in champion.



My wife has a champ. Cobra she loves...Likes it so much she uses it as her putter a lot of times as well as her main mid.

the panther in champion and the cobra in champion have been my go to mids for over a year now. ive got multiple aces with each.

I just noticed theres a Pro Cobra but Ive never seen one......

Star Panther would be pretty cool

Dave,

I have been throwing the Superhero disc with my dog for some time and I really love the flight of this disc. I liked it so much I tried a Sonic, but the Sonic does not stay stable in dx plastic. Have you made Champion/Star sonics in golf weights? I would like to have one in my bag.



No, we haven't made any Champion or Star in golf weight yet, but we probably will next time we mold Sonics.

Dave,

I have been throwing the Superhero disc with my dog for some time and I really love the flight of this disc. I liked it so much I tried a Sonic, but the Sonic does not stay stable in dx plastic. Have you made Champion/Star sonics in golf weights? I would like to have one in my bag.



No, we haven't made any Champion or Star in golf weight yet, but we probably will next time we mold Sonics.



A gummy Champion Sonic would be the BOMB!!

Hi Dave,

I'm a huge fan of DX Eagle-X's. However, a lot of merchants don't know the difference between L and X so tracking one down becomes a harder process than usual.

Are there any plans to rename the L mold the EL? What about the Gator L if it is run again?

I heard when the SL was fully renamed that it required another PDGA approval, so does that generally prevent Innova from changing names when L and X molds share a name?

DD... now that Feldberg won Worlds is he going to get a 'dave feldberg World Champ' signature disc like Barry, Kenny, Juliana?

if so when can those be expected and any 'rumors' on what disc it might be?

I would bet on Destroyer. It's a disc that Dave throws, plus it's a big seller. The DF Destroyer would be a good financial decision for him.

Got to win more than 1 worlds, I think. Now, if he won the USDGC this year, WOW.

Barry has 2 discs (leopard, beast), and he's won 2 worlds.

dave's won all the majors except japan at this point- with barry and kenny playing a bit less than at times in the past seems like it would make sense for innova to get a feldberg disc out there.

didn't dave win in japan this year?

yes...9 stroke win

USDGC 2005
European Open 2006
Players Cup 2007
Japan Open 2008
Worlds 2008

That's all of them.

yes...9 stroke win



oops, my bad, for some reason i had it in my head that steve won that one.

Hi Dave,

I'm a huge fan of DX Eagle-X's. However, a lot of merchants don't know the difference between L and X so tracking one down becomes a harder process than usual.

Are there any plans to rename the L mold the EL? What about the Gator L if it is run again?

I heard when the SL was fully renamed that it required another PDGA approval, so does that generally prevent Innova from changing names when L and X molds share a name?



We are no longer running any Eagles except X type. No Ls will be made in the future. We will mark any variations on the bottom of the disc, if there are any.

DD... now that Feldberg won Worlds is he going to get a 'dave feldberg World Champ' signature disc like Barry, Kenny, Juliana?

if so when can those be expected and any 'rumors' on what disc it might be?



We are thinking about it. We recently sent a disc in for certification that might fit the bill. We also sent some to Dave, to field test. If Dave did win the USDGC again, it would seal the deal. He is the number one player and has an impressive list of Major open victories. We have no release date set yet.

he also won the Scand this year... the memorial... Dave is flying high. just like Val is tearing up Womens.

which leads me to ask, when is she going to get a signature disc? two time reigning, defending, undisputed FEMALE CHAMPION OF THE WORLD!!!

I remember just a short time ago people were screaming for a Des disc.

Unfortunately, there are a large number of male casual players that will not through a disc with a woman's name on it.

forgot about Val... how could i forget about Val... she's tearing it up!

but as far as Feldberg... i think they'd be missing the boat not getting a disc out there with his name on it in regular production. If they delayed the 'echo' plastic it could've been the 'feldberg' plastic (like KC and JK have their own). Now that woulda been saweet!

Unfortunately, there are a large number of male casual players that will not through a disc with a woman's name on it.



Really? One of the first discs I bought was a JK Valk. Never crossed my mind.

Unfortunately, there are a large number of male casual players that will not through a disc with a woman's name on it.


Anyone not throwing Valkyries, and prefers to throw Innova, is really limiting themselves.

Unfortunately, there are a large number of male casual players that will not through a disc with a woman's name on it.



Nor throw pink or purple discs with a male name on them...

now that Feldberg won Worlds is he going to get a 'dave feldberg World Champ' signature disc


New disc named the Borg with the slogan "Resistance is futile" and Dave's signature on it might be cool if copyright issues wouldn't interfere.

In Dave's honor, just call it the "DF" & the more understable verion (with a Leopard bottom :p) could be the DFL.

Dave,
recently got a DX Roc, the Bird is facing to the right when looking at it with the old innova logo. Is this one special? thanks

Thats just an older run. probably from 2000-2003 or 4. Does it say "Stable Mid-Range Driver"? Those are sweet

Unfortunately, there are a large number of male casual players that will not through a disc with a woman's name on it.



Really? One of the first discs I bought was a JK Valk. Never crossed my mind.



My go-to driver is a JK Signature Champ. Valk. The signature is really big, 'cuz she signed the disc for me at Am Worlds last year. :D

Unfortunately, there are a large number of male casual players that will not through a disc with a woman's name on it.



That's just ignorant. Not your post, but the thought that if it's a female sig disc, they won't throw it. 100 to 1 odds Val would whoop every single man that's ashamed to throw a Signature Val Jenkins Starfire.
I'll be the first in line for that disc.

ok if Dave is throwing the Eco XC for his distance. explain this concept for me. im a pretty far throwing player and i throw pro destroyers for main distance. 400-420. i saw where Dave threw star teerex, now eco XC. Why so overstable? i know he might have more arm speed than me, but still these drivers finish so far left, i dont understand how that would be good for distance. unless they are just beating them in that much, then it seems they fly just like a new pro destroyer? help me understand.

A disc acts a lot differently if your throwing 400 max than if you're throwing in the 470+ range with occasional 500.

ok if Dave is throwing the Eco XC for his distance. explain this concept for me. im a pretty far throwing player and i throw pro destroyers for main distance. 400-420. i saw where Dave threw star teerex, now eco XC. Why so overstable? i know he might have more arm speed than me, but still these drivers finish so far left, i dont understand how that would be good for distance. unless they are just beating them in that much, then it seems they fly just like a new pro destroyer? help me understand.


If you've got the arm speed for it, a more stable disc is going to fly on much more reliable long golf lines. I'd rather throw an XC for a 400-430 foot shot any day because they hold a reliable straight line and fade, whereas I need to put a little more touch on a Destroyer because of the way it flips up/over (depending on wing angle).

-Chris.

2 things wrong with that. 1. for a sport that wants women to play more, that is a very male Shovenistic attitude to have. and what men actually care about that, i have not met any in TX or OK where i play.
2.i love the JK putter, have putt with it succesful for a while, and use the valk, and i never thought twice about it being from a chick. im sure she could kick my butt in putting with it any day, so i kept quite.

ok good point. well i think i have good arm speed. i can turn a monster, max, firebird over. i have a good release, anny, hyzer, flat. i throw a star XC for windy (TX) days when i still need D. my distance is 400-450 with pretty good consistancy. 470-500 with great wind, or good day and a red bull. im a big arm for a local, but not the tour. i understand that... but i thought i would get max distance from learning how to release the destroyer on an angle to get the best flight characterisitcs.
it sounds like you are saying to keep working on arm speed and throw the crap out of XC, and stable stuff. if thats what the big dogs are doing i will learn.
i can flip an XC if i want to, i just didnt know that was the right thing to do? i wondered why i saw Dave F throwing a TeeRex for D when they came out.
but answer this, an XC is great for predictability, but how are you throwing 450+ when it finishes hard left (rhbh) and even can skip, how do you control that? unless its beat in? or unless your throwing so big of a High ceiling S shot (like robbie Bratten) then i understand?

ok heres why i say that. i play with Robbie Bratten. yes he takes a pred out and bombs it 470+ high.. S shot. wow. ok he out throws me. but my 420-450 D is more controlled, lower ceiling. my scores end up better (unless the course is wide open) so i assume destroyer, more finesse get the D, but stay flat release, in control? How are Avery, Dave, You getting the distance? are you sacrificing the consistancy? or do i play to many tight fairway courses? LOL.

I'm definitely not sacrificing consistency (and before you click-click-back-back me and see I'm just some 964 rated kid with no pro earnings/skill... I've got $800 of earnings and a ratings bump that aren't in there yet since starting to accept cash, so I do know a LITTLE of what I'm talking about)...... Basically if you're dealing with flipping Firebirds (assuming champ max weight) you might not be getting the proper proportion of arm speed to snap.

Those things need to be in proportion. When I get 400-430 out of my XCaliber I'm putting the nose slightly up and releasing with a tiny bit of wing down (hyzer). To get it out 400 I can either go on a wider sweeping hyzer or a low laser, to get to 430 I need about 15 feet of air and it hyzer flips up straight, not really any turn or a very minimal amount. And to put into perspective how I throw, I'm really whipping it out there but I can throw it just as hard and not get any flip out of a Firebird.

Try this for working on throwing it as hard as you can without flipping it over: angle the nose just a teensy bit up. Just enough that it keeps it from flipping more. That'll help the disc avoid flipping when you snap the crap out of it. And then learn to keep the arm speed up and bring the snap more down in proportion with the arm speed, slowly lowering the nose angle until you're able to throw it level and far without flipping it too much.

Hope some of that made sense. :)


-Chris.

ok heres why i say that. i play with Robbie Bratten. yes he takes a pred out and bombs it 470+ high.. S shot. wow. ok he out throws me. but my 420-450 D is more controlled, lower ceiling. my scores end up better (unless the course is wide open) so i assume destroyer, more finesse get the D, but stay flat release, in control? How are Avery, Dave, You getting the distance? are you sacrificing the consistancy? or do i play to many tight fairway courses? LOL.




It sounds to me like you are on the right track...I followed Feldberg for the final round of the Player's Cup last year and he throws very smooth...I'd bet most he D drivers are not that overstable. He throws usually w/hyzer and he does not reach back very much.

I think that he likes the consistency of the XC for hyzer shots that are well within his range because he can just pop it out there and let the stability of the disc take over and do the work for him. That little "pop" he has is as powerful and controlled as anyone out there.

I can talk about Climo's game a little better because I get to play casual rounds with him (and one short round on the lead card in a tournament where I suffered from "the Climo effect"). He does not throw overstable plastic at all unless it is windy or he needs an extreme hyzer. He throws Wraiths for distance. His release is smooth, controlled, and the most consistent ever. It often seems like I'm ripping discs out faster and harder than he does, but he still out distances me most the time.

I used to be of the "throw stable and hard" mindset, but playing with Kenny and the other old school pros down here in FL has gradually changed that. Now I'm somewhere in b/w that old mindset and the "throw as smooth and consistent as possible with the disc that goes the farthest when you do" mindset. The one thing about throwing stable discs flat and hard is by the 4th round of a 2 day tournament they may not be doing so well for you. Fatigue sets it, which doesn't usually affect "smooth" throws, but it really affects my ability to throw as hard as I can w/accuracy. The players with a smooth and effortless style come out on top.

According to your description you throw in the same power range as I do. I don't throw the XC...I prefer the 12x Star Wraith for almost all distance shots b\c I can "smooth" it out there and still get 400'+. If it is more open and in the 450'+ range I will pull out a Pro Destroyer. It is much more sensitive than the Wraith, but when I throw it hard goes further and stays more stable than my Wraith. If it is windy I throw a Champion Destroyer (to me, a further flying XC). Yesterday I played on the backside of Tropical Storm Fay and my Champion Destroyer more than proved it was as stable of a distance driver as I need in my game. Bottom line, what works for Feldberg may not work for you. Accept that and trust in your field results.

Dave, were the first run Spiders with the small star stamp current champ. plastic or CE? Thanks in advance.

Hi Dave,

I've recently run low on my champion firebirds, most of these firebirds I purchased from 2004-2005. My question is why do the current run of champion firebirds have a domey top? The ones I am used to throwing are very flat on top. Will the next run of champ FB's have a flat top?

Thx,

mc

Different Dave, but my guess it is just a molding variation.

Molding variation



That little buzz word (phrase) is getting tossed around quite a bit...

Commish....IMO those firebirds you are talking about...of which I just purchased one for $30 on Ebay...are the way they are because they are 11X Firebirds in combination with Joe's small Twisted Flyer stamp in the center of them.

The new ones aren't usless, just not as stable.

Dave -

What plastic type is your favorite? Do you prefer different plastic between putters and mids and drivers? From what era was your favorite plastic made?

My favorite plastic type for drivers is the 11X KC PRO opaque champion like plastic used in the banshee, gazelle and cheetah. Clear champion for most everything else circa 2004-2005.

Thanks,
Dion

Do the ECO Green Xcalibers fly differently then the other colors? Or is it the same plastic only with recycled star material? I guess what I am asking is whats the story on these things because I noticed that the green ones seem extremely popular. It looked to me that both Feldberg and Orum were throwing these Eco Bombs at the World Finals in Michigan.

I'm pretty sure the Echo XCalibers only come in green. Any other color is just normal Star.

As for flying differently, they are normally more stable, with a small amount of freak ones that came out less stable.

My favorite plastic type for drivers is the 11X KC PRO opaque champion like plastic



the best mix ever produced, ever. I have wished more than once that all the discs in my bag regardless of manufacturer, except for my putters, were made of this plastic.

those Teebirds are the best disc ever made. so grippy, so true flying, and it takes a WHOOPIN'!

if there was any way to bring it back in the exact same mix and produce a wide range of discs with it I think I would really consider ~30 bills a disc retail. no joke.

i saw a yellow echo marked e-xc on the back

Different Dave, but my guess it is just a molding variation.



I think it is a cooling rate issue. A domey Firebird is just plain weird.

Do the ECO Green Xcalibers fly differently then the other colors? Or is it the same plastic only with recycled star material? I guess what I am asking is whats the story on these things because I noticed that the green ones seem extremely popular. It looked to me that both Feldberg and Orum were throwing these Eco Bombs at the World Finals in Michigan.



Yes they fly differently. I threw one of the first ones Climo got and it was echo star. I was like "man I can't wait until I get one of these". I waited until they were in production and bought a couple. They flew very different, and it was more than stability. The normal ones seemed clunky. I think that the echo are faster and get more lift in their transition from turned over to flat. People that throw the echo won't touch the others...

Different Dave, but my guess it is just a molding variation.


It may be a molding variation but it seems to be the norm lately for most drivers. I really like flatter drivers in general and all the molds I prefer are almost always domey now. At least Sidewinders, Teebirds, Valkyries, & Orcs are this way and it's in Champion or Star plastic as well. I see it in mids as well. I just like the feel of a flat disc in my hand and it seems to come out cleaner more often, especially with a forehand.

Dave, are these molds popping up more because they are cooling quicker? If that's the case is it more feasible to do this to increase disc production over the same amount of time and therefore makes it more cost effective? I'm sure there are others that like a more domey disc in certain molds but myself and many others I play with prefer a flatter molding. Either way flat discs are much less common now than in previous years.

ATTENTION ALL LADY DISC GOLFERS

OK, LISTEN UP LADIES. I am trying to help here. I am beginning to wonder if the ladies of disc golf really want to promote this sport or just gripe about the low numbers of women players. I have issued a challenge on other threads to help those who want to help themselves. RESULTS, the board went quiet. My wife and I are trying to build a disc golf resort near tulsa, oklahoma. We are not disc golfers but we love the sport and the disc golf community as a whole. We are absolutely putting our money where our mouth is. We have had the honor of having our course played by some very good women players, including Courtney Peavey and Valerie Jenkins. As newcomers to the sport, I do my research by surfing other clubs discussion boards and try to ascertain needs of the sport where we might be able to fill a niche. To that end, we are willing to host an all women's tournament with some substantial added money (depending on the number of entries). All I hear from women is their concern about the lack of competition or female competitors. It is obvious to me that we need to raise the bar for women in this sport. If there is genuine concern for this sport by enough ladies, then we are here to help you, ladies, raise the bar. If it is just a venue for negative comments then, count us out. Any ladies want to do something positive and good for ladies disc golf. The ball is now in your court. Jim Taylor, owner, The Lodge in Pawhuska, Ok. 918-724-3121.

--------------------
JT

Dave, were the first run Spiders with the small star stamp current champ. plastic or CE? Thanks in advance.



Not CE. Maybe not current either. Even when we order the exact same plastic, it is not necessarily exactly the same. Batch to batch variations occur.

Hi Dave,

I've recently run low on my champion firebirds, most of these firebirds I purchased from 2004-2005. My question is why do the current run of champion firebirds have a domey top? The ones I am used to throwing are very flat on top. Will the next run of champ FB's have a flat top?

Thx,

mc



dgdave is correct. Just a molding variation. I can't tell you what the next run will look like exactly, but they will be stable, and not overly domey. We really don't want them extremely flat either.

Dave -

What plastic type is your favorite? Do you prefer different plastic between putters and mids and drivers? From what era was your favorite plastic made?

My favorite plastic type for drivers is the 11X KC PRO opaque champion like plastic used in the banshee, gazelle and cheetah. Clear champion for most everything else circa 2004-2005.

Thanks,
Dion



I generally like the JK Pro putter plastic for putters and my Pig. For everything else, I prefer whatever feels the best between Star or Champion. The grippier, the better. Not too stiff and not too gummy.

Thanks Florida, it sounds we are similar in driving. ill take that.
ill tweak my over stable XC, star Destoyer and keep the Pro around and even try the star wraith for others. again thanks man.

What Innova setup do you guys like for your overstable game?
ie whippets and firebirds, monsters, max...?

Do the ECO Green Xcalibers fly differently then the other colors? Or is it the same plastic only with recycled star material? I guess what I am asking is whats the story on these things because I noticed that the green ones seem extremely popular. It looked to me that both Feldberg and Orum were throwing these Eco Bombs at the World Finals in Michigan.



Each Echo color is bound to be slightly different as it is made from a mass of reprocessed discs. The Green was a particularly domey batch. Yellow, Orange, Red, and Gray all seemed normal. The Green was also made into blue, and various shades of green and teal.

Are there any new types of plastics in the works? either for mass runs or TFR stuff.

hey Florida does KC throw destroyer, or just stick to wraith for D.

hey Florida does KC throw destroyer, or just stick to wraith for D.



Kenny throws his sig Star Wraith exclusively for D when I've played w/him. He's got stable ones, medium ones, and flippy ones that he rolls way farther than I can throw. I watched him park a 540' hole rolling that Wraith on a basket that is placed 25' in front of a lake! He can throw his Wraiths 450' on a hyzer the whole way and gets close to 500' with an "S" pattern flight...

I haven't played with the champ for a couple of months, but he does not change discs very often. I know when he first got Destroyers he gave most of them away. Domey and stiff 12x Wraiths are the cornerstone of his distance game,

Dave,

Are Champion Destroyers going to go into regular production?

On a more philosophical note...Do you think the faster, wide-rimmed drivers are making the sport easier in a noticable way as evidenced by the low scores @ Worlds this year?

We just had a Roc / Aviar Worlds. The wide rims were mostly on the marshal hats...

We just had a Roc / Aviar Worlds. The wide rims were mostly on the marshal hats...



What about all the eagles on par 4's and 5's?

What's the easiest way to increase the number of eagles on a hole without changing to wide-rimmed discs?

DD... now that Feldberg won Worlds is he going to get a 'dave feldberg World Champ' signature disc like Barry, Kenny, Juliana?

if so when can those be expected and any 'rumors' on what disc it might be?



We are thinking about it. We recently sent a disc in for certification that might fit the bill. We also sent some to Dave, to field test. If Dave did win the USDGC again, it would seal the deal. He is the number one player and has an impressive list of Major open victories. We have no release date set yet.



What type of disc was submitted?

Thx

Are there any new types of plastics in the works? either for mass runs or TFR stuff.



I have been working on a new plastic, but so far, it doesn't run well.

Dave,

Are Champion Destroyers going to go into regular production?

On a more philosophical note...Do you think the faster, wide-rimmed drivers are making the sport easier in a noticable way as evidenced by the low scores @ Worlds this year?



Yes, we will eventually make mass run Champion Destroyers.

I think the wide rimmed discs make distance easier and playing in the wind easier, but doesn't make accuracy easier at all. It might make accuracy a little harder. That being said, it depends on the design of the course as to whether or not it makes scoring easier. On a course like USDGC, it makes some of the holes riskier and rewardier. Higher risk, but higher potential reward. On a hole like 888, it makes the approach shot over the parking lot easier. I didn't go to worlds this year so I can't comment on how these discs might have affected the scores. Generally, they help on open holes where you need a lot of distance without asking for much accuracy.

Dave,

Are Champion Destroyers going to go into regular production?

On a more philosophical note...Do you think the faster, wide-rimmed drivers are making the sport easier in a noticable way as evidenced by the low scores @ Worlds this year?



Yes, we will eventually make mass run Champion Destroyers.

I think the wide rimmed discs make distance easier and playing in the wind easier, but doesn't make accuracy easier at all. It might make accuracy a little harder. That being said, it depends on the design of the course as to whether or not it makes scoring easier. On a course like USDGC, it makes some of the holes riskier and rewardier. Higher risk, but higher potential reward. On a hole like 888, it makes the approach shot over the parking lot easier. I didn't go to worlds this year so I can't comment on how these discs might have affected the scores. Generally, they help on open holes where you need a lot of distance without asking for much accuracy.


So Dave, that being said, what do you think is the most accurate long distance driver, or is there such a thing?
My vote would go to the Orc.

Depending on how one defines "long distance driver", could be Ch. Teebird, Ch. Viking, or DX TeeRex for me.

Orion LF would be my vote.

For me it's the Orc (plus it has a ton of glide so it doesn't move as fast as some of my discs but can usually achieve similar distance)

For me equally divided between SOLF and Monarch depending on the shot. Orc was always too sensitive on the nose angle for me.

Dave,

Are Champion Destroyers going to go into regular production?

On a more philosophical note...Do you think the faster, wide-rimmed drivers are making the sport easier in a noticable way as evidenced by the low scores @ Worlds this year?



Yes, we will eventually make mass run Champion Destroyers.

I think the wide rimmed discs make distance easier and playing in the wind easier, but doesn't make accuracy easier at all. It might make accuracy a little harder. That being said, it depends on the design of the course as to whether or not it makes scoring easier. On a course like USDGC, it makes some of the holes riskier and rewardier. Higher risk, but higher potential reward. On a hole like 888, it makes the approach shot over the parking lot easier. I didn't go to worlds this year so I can't comment on how these discs might have affected the scores. Generally, they help on open holes where you need a lot of distance without asking for much accuracy.


So Dave, that being said, what do you think is the most accurate long distance driver, or is there such a thing?
My vote would go to the Orc.



Accuracy is a product of the thrower, not the disc. With that being said....

I think it would come down to which high speed driver is the most consistent. Destroyers (DX, Star, Champ and Pro in that order) tend to be ultra sensitive to release and wind conditions. The 12X Wraith tends to be very consistent for me, but other Wraiths (Pro, DX, normal Star) are sensitive as well. While overstable discs tend to be more consistent due to the nature of their flights, I think its kind of a cliche to say they are the "most" consistent. I would put the Max and XC in that catagory. Early DX TeeRex that were stiff, domey and usually tournament stamped are incredibly fast and stable, much like the XC before it was released. For me, that has been a go to for accurate distance. But the disc that would win the award for most consistent and still a high speed driver would be the Star Starfire-X. Everyone run that I've encountered of this disc is money.

But again accuracy is a product of the thrower and not a result of which disc you throw.

Dave, do you See a PrOblem with floodiNg the StORes with stable plastic that doesn't beat in? I see, and i'M surE others do too, a lot of noobs playing with new drivers that will never get flippy and these kids will never learn how to throw a disc properly. This wasn't a problem when I began, we all had sharks and stingrays, in DX.
Also, will we be seeing any new drivers of slower speeds, or is the bigger faster disc all that is on the drawing board?
Thank you in advance.

Orc is great for flat shots, but its not very versatile. I never felt comfortable throwing hyzers with the Orc, there's just no telling when its gonna flip up straight or fade out early. Add wind and yikes!

I don't know what it is about those 12x Wraiths, but they are the most accurate and consistent for me across all conditions. To me they fly like faster TLs.

For me it's the Orc (plus it has a ton of glide so it doesn't move as fast as some of my discs but can usually achieve similar distance)



i love the Orc too -- it is my go-to driver. broken-in Pearly champs for straight shots, Tulsa SB Orcs for hyzers or when i need to finish left, and Pro Orcs for pure D or for hyzer flips. I carry a few other drivers too, but Orcs rock! (pardon the pun)

I've tried the Wraith but it seems much more nose-angle sensitive to me. maybe the Orc is more forgiving for my nose-up / air-bounce tendencies ... i migth get 15 more feet out of a Wraith but when accuracy matters (golf) the Orc generally places me in better shape.

i prefer star orc's over star wraiths. they seem to be versatile to me. i can throw them sidearm, backhand, and for tomahawk shots. but i like champ wraiths better than champ orcs.

Dave, do you See a PrOblem with floodiNg the StORes with stable plastic that doesn't beat in? I see, and i'M surE others do too, a lot of noobs playing with new drivers that will never get flippy and these kids will never learn how to throw a disc properly. This wasn't a problem when I began, we all had sharks and stingrays, in DX.
Also, will we be seeing any new drivers of slower speeds, or is the bigger faster disc all that is on the drawing board?
Thank you in advance.


Been hearing this since I started in 05. This same sentiment. And coming up with my fellow 'n00bs' I haven't seen this as a problem. Most people I know tend to wind up picking up roadrunners and sidewinders if they're serious and learning to manipulate their plastic. I don't see this phantom issue all the ol' timers seem to bring up from time to time.

I do not envy the top man's (Dave) position here. What is the best for the business may not be the best for the sport. You can't very well advise the beginner not to buy that spiffy looking Star Max (cool name too!). Even if that same person really needs a Skeeter. If you prowl around the charts and catalogs, the larger disc companies do seem to be making an effort to describe that some of the molds are not suitable for true beginners. I salute their efforts in this. This discussion is also highly based on geography. In CVA, the most played course is in a munincipal park, and is Rec distance. I see college kids out there that throw nothing but tomahawks with the readily available overstable drivers. And you know what? They are having fun. That is THE key. If they choose to drive another 20 minutes to a more challenging course and meet up with the local golf crowd, we try and help them out with disc selection. I let alot of people try my plastic. I give stuff away. Think of it as kind of a graduation from purely having fun (with whatever discs) to picking up the sport (with selected discs). Almost a kind of natural selection. Just my thoughts. KP

if anyone has 12KC aviars 12 or first run desroyers PM me I would like them.

Dave, I'm guessing that the disc that you have sent for the approval and that will possibly be Feldberg's signature disc is the Boss? Speed: 13, Glide: 4, Turn: 0, Fade: 4.

how much wider can you go? how about an SOLF-type innova driver? like a better, faster viking, with not a super-wide rim?

Doesnt matter how much wider or faster they go. Nothing beats Nigel Tuffnell's 11's.

how much wider can you go? how about an SOLF-type innova driver? like a better, faster viking, with not a super-wide rim?



I doubt Innova has a reason to release a SOLF-type driver, due to their relationship with Millenium.

Also, the problem I see is that the SOLF-type drivers are a dieing breed.

They have stabilizers on the wing (a notch) to increase consistency and accuracy, and if you put those on the wider-rimmed discs then they become unbearably overstable.

Also, Innova has already filled out most of the lines that aren't super wide. At every speed and rim width you can find overstable, stable, and understable discs. There is very little need for new discs under a certain speed because it would be hard to make a drastic improvement over what is already available.

The next big improvement in disc technology won't be wider rims, it will be in the plastics and improving distance and/or accuracy with current rim widths. Or possibly even just refining the molding processes to make them disc runs more consistent or cheaper.

I think Innova and Discraft have been on the right track with Star and FLX plastic respectively, and Gateway has been on the right track with the dimples and nose angles. However, there is still a lot to improve on in those areas.

Dave, Any Info on the BOSS? Release date possibly?

Dave,

Are Champion Destroyers going to go into regular production?

On a more philosophical note...Do you think the faster, wide-rimmed drivers are making the sport easier in a noticable way as evidenced by the low scores @ Worlds this year?



Yes, we will eventually make mass run Champion Destroyers.

I think the wide rimmed discs make distance easier and playing in the wind easier, but doesn't make accuracy easier at all. It might make accuracy a little harder. That being said, it depends on the design of the course as to whether or not it makes scoring easier. On a course like USDGC, it makes some of the holes riskier and rewardier. Higher risk, but higher potential reward. On a hole like 888, it makes the approach shot over the parking lot easier. I didn't go to worlds this year so I can't comment on how these discs might have affected the scores. Generally, they help on open holes where you need a lot of distance without asking for much accuracy.


So Dave, that being said, what do you think is the most accurate long distance driver, or is there such a thing?
My vote would go to the Orc.



I would probably vote for the Star Destroyer or the new Distance Driver we make for Discmania. The Distance Driver is more or less between a TeeRex and a Wraith. It has about the same high speed stability as a TeeRex, but less low speed fade, which makes it easier to hit long fairways.

is this disc out yet?

Dave, do you See a PrOblem with floodiNg the StORes with stable plastic that doesn't beat in? I see, and i'M surE others do too, a lot of noobs playing with new drivers that will never get flippy and these kids will never learn how to throw a disc properly. This wasn't a problem when I began, we all had sharks and stingrays, in DX.
Also, will we be seeing any new drivers of slower speeds, or is the bigger faster disc all that is on the drawing board?
Thank you in advance.



Yes, there would be a problem for us if we just marketed the most stable type drivers. We don't. We come out with the less stable versions and then add on both ends.

Everything is always on the drawing board. Slow or fast, stable or unstable. It is however, relatively easy to sell the faster longer, rather than the slower shorter. Over stable is not really a selling point for most people.

is this disc out yet?

The Discmania disc? No, but very soon.

Dave, Any Info on the BOSS? Release date possibly?



No release date has been set. Possibly by USDGC.

Dave, I'm guessing that the disc that you have sent for the approval and that will possibly be Feldberg's signature disc is the Boss? Speed: 13, Glide: 4, Turn: 0, Fade: 4.



Yes. Those numbers are tentative, but close.

Dave,

Are Champion Destroyers going to go into regular production?

On a more philosophical note...Do you think the faster, wide-rimmed drivers are making the sport easier in a noticable way as evidenced by the low scores @ Worlds this year?



Yes, we will eventually make mass run Champion Destroyers.

I think the wide rimmed discs make distance easier and playing in the wind easier, but doesn't make accuracy easier at all. It might make accuracy a little harder. That being said, it depends on the design of the course as to whether or not it makes scoring easier. On a course like USDGC, it makes some of the holes riskier and rewardier. Higher risk, but higher potential reward. On a hole like 888, it makes the approach shot over the parking lot easier. I didn't go to worlds this year so I can't comment on how these discs might have affected the scores. Generally, they help on open holes where you need a lot of distance without asking for much accuracy.


So Dave, that being said, what do you think is the most accurate long distance driver, or is there such a thing?
My vote would go to the Orc.



I would probably vote for the Star Destroyer or the new Distance Driver we make for Discmania. The Distance Driver is more or less between a TeeRex and a Wraith. It has about the same high speed stability as a TeeRex, but less low speed fade, which makes it easier to hit long fairways.



Dave, so this new Discmania disc is different from their new Power Driver or PD?

Thanks as always.

Dave -

I love the Pig. I have 2. One is a Orange Pro Pig, and the other is the Star stamp in the Worlds Players pack. Both max weight. The numbers for this (on your website) are exactly the same as a Rhyno except one notch faster. However, mine are WAY more overstable than a Rhyno. I would say it is closer to a slower Whippet than a faster Rhyno.

Are you (or others) seeing the same thing or do I just have some SWEET flukes? Do you ever change the numbers after the initial entry or are they pretty much set in stone?

I wonder if people would be more interested in the disc if the ratings were closer to actual.

Thanks again!

my 172 pig [white] is very beefy, like a slower gator.

Boss approved today. 2.5cm rim thickness (1 inch!).

This sounds like the disc I thought the Xcal would be and the disc I was hoping the Destroyer would be. It's that -1 turn on the Destroyer that gets me into trouble. I do like the D's and X's though.

Dave--from your experience, how would you compare the cfr champ destroyers and the stock-stamp star xcalibers? thx--steven

Dave, so this new Discmania disc is different from their new Power Driver or PD?

Thanks as always.



Yes, the PD was already released and is like a cross between a Firebird and Starfire.

Dave -

I love the Pig. I have 2. One is a Orange Pro Pig, and the other is the Star stamp in the Worlds Players pack. Both max weight. The numbers for this (on your website) are exactly the same as a Rhyno except one notch faster. However, mine are WAY more overstable than a Rhyno. I would say it is closer to a slower Whippet than a faster Rhyno.

Are you (or others) seeing the same thing or do I just have some SWEET flukes? Do you ever change the numbers after the initial entry or are they pretty much set in stone?

I wonder if people would be more interested in the disc if the ratings were closer to actual.

Thanks again!



Yes, we do change the numbers if we think they need it. Initially, I did see what you are seeing, but my Pig mellowed out fairly quickly. Even though, it is a little more over stable than a Rhyno, but I would not agree that it is as over stable as a Whippet. You may have some exceptionally over stable Pigs.

Dave--from your experience, how would you compare the cfr champ destroyers and the stock-stamp star xcalibers? thx--steven



They are sometimes very comparable. Champ Destroyers tend to be more stable than Star. Likewise, some Star XCalibers are less stable than some Echo Star and some Champ XCals.

Different Dave, but my guess it is just a molding variation.


It may be a molding variation but it seems to be the norm lately for most drivers. I really like flatter drivers in general and all the molds I prefer are almost always domey now. At least Sidewinders, Teebirds, Valkyries, & Orcs are this way and it's in Champion or Star plastic as well. I see it in mids as well. I just like the feel of a flat disc in my hand and it seems to come out cleaner more often, especially with a forehand.

Dave, are these molds popping up more because they are cooling quicker? If that's the case is it more feasible to do this to increase disc production over the same amount of time and therefore makes it more cost effective? I'm sure there are others that like a more domey disc in certain molds but myself and many others I play with prefer a flatter molding. Either way flat discs are much less common now than in previous years.


Hey Dave, I don't think you saw this post from a few pages back. Basically, what are the reasons for a particular disc coming out of production domey or flat? There seems to be a good bit of variation in Star or Champion plastic. How much control do you have over this molding variation? Lastly, do you have an ideal amount of dome you would like to achieve in general for all discs or does it vary for different molds? Thanks in advance for any incite.

I like the flat top champ firebirds but apparently Innova is trying to get away from this...poor decision if you ask me.

I'll 2nd that. I like flatter tops on all my drivers. I tend to stay away from the ones with a high dome. And there seems to be more and more domey discs around. It's getting kind of annoying actually.

Boss approved today. 2.5cm rim thickness (1 inch!).

Well I guess I won't be throwing that disc either.

And there seems to be more and more domey discs around. It's getting kind of annoying actually.



I've noticed that too...same thing with the star destroyers, a lot of the first runs were "flat top" which in my opinion fly much better than the current run of domey star destroyers.

Domey sucks.

i think the domey discs [at least destroyer and xcal] fly straighter, with more glide.

Hey Dave, I don't think you saw this post from a few pages back. Basically, what are the reasons for a particular disc coming out of production domey or flat? There seems to be a good bit of variation in Star or Champion plastic. How much control do you have over this molding variation? Lastly, do you have an ideal amount of dome you would like to achieve in general for all discs or does it vary for different molds? Thanks in advance for any incite.



Mainly the differences in molding are due to differences in materials we are supplied. There is an optimal amount of dome for every mold which varies from disc to disc. A flat or domey disc is not inherently better or worse. The end user decides which he wants to use. I personally don't like either flat or domey. Flat feels better in my hand, but doesn't usually fly the way I want. Usually flat discs have excessive dive which is not good for distance or accuracy. On the other hand, the flat discs generally perform better in the wind.

On the other hand, the flat discs generally perform better in the wind.



Guess that explains why MC and I prefer flat. Oklahoma and Corpus Christi TX respectively.

Dave,
Any chance the Monarch will be made in Star plastic?
Thanks.

On the other hand, the flat discs generally perform better in the wind.



Guess that explains why MC and I prefer flat. Oklahoma and Corpus Christi TX respectively.



Affirmative on that, you gotta love that TX/Okie wind :cool: the flat top star destroyers laugh in the face of most headwinds. If i'm not using the flat top star destroyer into a headwind it will most definetly be a star MAX.

159g Star Monarchs and Pro Orcs please!!!!!!!!!

dave--would the cooling process affect dome?

I would very much like to see the Monarch in Star plastic too.

Dave,
I was just wondering why some discs have special first run stamps, Like Starfire, Sidewinder, Destroyer, Xcal...etc.. and other discs don't get first run stamps, like the Monarch, Pig, sonic and others. I guess it doesn't really matter, they probably still have mostly the same flight characteristics.

Thanks,
Chris

Dave,
Any chance the Monarch will be made in Star plastic?
Thanks.



Yes, but probably not this season.

dave--would the cooling process affect dome?



It does in DX, but is not a consistent factor for Star, Pro, or Champion.

I would very much like to see the Monarch in Star plastic too.

Dave,
I was just wondering why some discs have special first run stamps, Like Starfire, Sidewinder, Destroyer, Xcal...etc.. and other discs don't get first run stamps, like the Monarch, Pig, sonic and others. I guess it doesn't really matter, they probably still have mostly the same flight characteristics.

Thanks,
Chris



We are supposed to do first run stamps on most everything, but sometimes it slips by. Usually my fault for wanting to meet a deadline for release.

Boss approved today. 2.5cm rim thickness (1 inch!).



Is it available yet????

Boss approved today. 2.5cm rim thickness (1 inch!).



Is it available yet????



No. Release is tentatively scheduled in time for USDGC.

Yo Dave ... not a question here but ... I got to throw a couple Pigs yesterday for the first time. I can see how it got it's name! Nice disc! I was surprised by the grippy Pro plastic ... interesting. Do they get a less tacky after their used for awhile? I think I'm going to like this disc a lot. I throw CH Gators (and will continue to throw them for longer shots because they are awesome), but i think the Pig will fit in my bag nicely.
I didn't think I would like this disc because of the thumbtrac, but I'm pleasantly surprised that it doesn't bother me at all.

Nice job!

Mine is still very tacky after a month and alot of throwing.

One thing I have noticed is Sharpie does not stick to it. I can scratch / rub it off easily. Oddly, the same thing happens with my Epic.

Mine is still very tacky after a month and alot of throwing.

One thing I have noticed is Sharpie does not stick to it. I can scratch / rub it off easily. Oddly, the same thing happens with my Epic.



These Pigs are so tacky that when they hit the ground they don't go far ... which is a very good thing, in a way. I was really surprised at how fast they stop when they hit the ground, even throwing as hard and as far as I can throw them. They stop on a dime.

Mine is still very tacky after a month and alot of throwing.

One thing I have noticed is Sharpie does not stick to it. I can scratch / rub it off easily. Oddly, the same thing happens with my Epic.



These Pigs are so tacky that when they hit the ground they don't go far ... which is a very good thing, in a way. I was really surprised at how fast they stop when they hit the ground, even throwing as hard and as far as I can throw them. They stop on a dime.




They also stop 6 inches from the pin to win the innova sport ctp at HELL ON THE BORDER.

Extremely consistant in the headwind.

Looking at the list of approved disc the Discmania Distance driver has also made the list.

Disc golf Valves are ready has the DD for sale or pre order .

Hi Dave,

heretofore, coming from a frisbee background led me to avoid overstable stuff, but now i am starting to note that overstable drivers may make certain kinds of disc golf shots (landing near the pin) a lot easier. what is your strategy with regard to that? [when a hole's layout allows for it] do you find throwing the disc on a vector that enables the disc to do what it wants better than the frisbee mindset of making the disc fly the way you want it to?

also, what do you see as the greatest strengths of the Monarch?

as always -- thanks for your time, it is greatly appreciated.

Consider reading Feldberg's interview related to your question:
www.1000rated.com/?p=82 (http://www.1000rated.com/?p=82)

cool: Feldberg throws the Monarch! :D

I thought his discussion with the Champ regarding truly throwing hyzer versus stalls insightful and the challenge Schack threw down to throw one junk disc and learn the wind that day.

thanks Chuck, i am about to check it out. I would still like to hear Dave's input as well though ;)

edit: that is a great and informative disc golf interview. thanks Chuck!

Hi Dave,

heretofore, coming from a frisbee background led me to avoid overstable stuff, but now i am starting to note that overstable drivers may make certain kinds of disc golf shots (landing near the pin) a lot easier. what is your strategy with regard to that? [when a hole's layout allows for it] do you find throwing the disc on a vector that enables the disc to do what it wants better than the frisbee mindset of making the disc fly the way you want it to?

also, what do you see as the greatest strengths of the Monarch?

as always -- thanks for your time, it is greatly appreciated.



I am of two minds about your first question. I almost always carry at least one over stable driver, but tend to use it sparingly. I too come from a Frisbee background. Having said that, I design discs to do certain tasks well. I prefer to throw stable rather than unstable or over stable, but many times over stable or unstable work better than stable. The Monarch would be a good example of an unstable driver that can do several tasks better for me than a stable or overstable driver. The Monarach has four strengths: turning corners with subsequent distance either hyzer or anhyzer, rolling backhand (so far it doesn't seem to work as well sidearm for me), giving good distance for fair power, and lastly doubling as a fairway driver.

My specific uses for an overstable driver would be: avoiding OB (for either backhand on the right or sidearm on the left), spike drives or long approaches, high wind management, and high speed flex shots either backhand or sidearm. A good example of a shot I would use a torque resistent overstable driver for (especially in a face wind situation) would be USDGC #5, (the lake hole). The left side of the fairway is blind and bordered by water. Accuracy is premium, but distance is needed also, to avoid making the second shot more difficult. Playing a sidearm drive flat and toward the left side of the fairway allows me to hit the entire fairway, instead of just half, if I were to throw straight up the middle. This is a common golf strategy. As the fairway slopes from right to left, the slope helps to catch the sidearm and miss the backhand. Another use for an overstable driver would be on the approach for the same hole. Spikes (or verticals) are probably the most reliable approach shots. Overstable discs tend to do these shots best.

Thanks for the great read. My driver line up is now: beat Ch. Roadrunner, new Ch. RR, Ch. TL, Pro Orc, Ch. Orc, SB Orc, Star Destroyer.

I am now considering adding a Destroyer and working in the Monarch. (still haven't thrown one, but now have two after winning two non-Innova discs in CTPs yesterday and trading for new Monarchs) :D:D

I used to throw Ch. Valkyries, then Sidewinders, before settling on Ch. RoadRunners. Once my Orcs break in they overlap down in stability some and i find a new RR flies like a broken in Valk... How would you compare & contrast the Monarch to the Valk, Sidewinder or RR?

Also, does it surprise you that the QMS isn't more popular? do any of the Team Champion guys & gals throw them? what discs have you designed that are not as appreciated as you would have expected?

PS: Happy Labor Day! Your labors in the area of disc design & manufacturing have brought a lot of joy to the world.

so i finally got around to reading a description of the Monarch as a faster Roadrunner with more glide... i look forward to getting to know them...

i know faster discs are a definite help when throwing into a wind which i assume is because they get further down the flight path before the wind can act upon them...(?) other than being an advantage into a headwind as well as impressive, does more speed yield other advantages too? at what times, or for what kind of shots, is a slower disc advantageous?

Also, does it surprise you that the QMS isn't more popular? do any of the Team Champion guys & gals throw them? what discs have you designed that are not as appreciated as you would have expected?




Several discs have come and gone that were not as appreciated as I would have thought. The Aviar was in that catagory for the first year or two of its existence. The Viking has been largly unappreciated. Probably the most under appreciated driver of all time was the Python. The Python was ahead of its time. It was the sister disc of the Ram. The Python was a longer straighter flyer and was the best roller at the time too.

The most under appreciated mid range was the Shark at one time, but not now. Now, the most under appreciated certainly has to be all the incarnations of the #1 Pro. The #1 Pro we made for DGA. It became the Aurora MS. It was also marketed by Wham-0 through Discovering the World as the Apollo.

I really don't know why the Python and #1Pro/Apollo/Aurora MS didn't/haven't done well. I can only guess that they didn't get sufficient exposure.

so i finally got around to reading a description of the Monarch as a faster Roadrunner with more glide... i look forward to getting to know them...

i know faster discs are a definite help when throwing into a wind which i assume is because they get further down the flight path before the wind can act upon them...(?) other than being an advantage into a headwind as well as impressive, does more speed yield other advantages too? at what times, or for what kind of shots, is a slower disc advantageous?



Basically, it is like club selection of ball golf. The right disc, for the right distance. Slower discs are often much more accurate than longer discs too. Putting with a fast disc is precarious. Driving with a putter isn't, but it might be too difficult to get range.

My go-to driver is a JK Signature Champ. Valk. The signature is really big, 'cuz she signed the disc for me at Am Worlds last year. :D



My go-to roller is the same disc - also Juliana signed it for me at Am Worlds last year. :) :)

What do you feel is the closest to the Python on the market now?

Dave,

What disc do you like to throw that has good high speed stability without significant fade?

Thanks in advance!

Chris

What do you feel is the closest to the Python on the market now?



I don't know that I could say. The Python was a 180 max driver, but if I had to guess I would say TL.

Dave,

What disc do you like to throw that has good high speed stability without significant fade?

Thanks in advance!

Chris



Discmania Distance Driver.

Dave,

What disc do you like to throw that has good high speed stability without significant fade?

Thanks in advance!

Chris



Discmania Distance Driver.



Viking? :p

Dave,

What disc do you like to throw that has good high speed stability without significant fade?

Thanks in advance!

Chris



Discmania Distance Driver.



Viking? :p



Yes, but I read it wrong as "long range driver". I use the Ch Viking as a fairway driver.

Dave,

In what plastic, & when do you expect "The Boss" to be available? CFR or Stock?

Thanks,
ChrisP.

Dave,

In what plastic, & when do you expect "The Boss" to be available? CFR or Stock?

Thanks,
ChrisP.



We plan on starting the production run of the Champion Boss today or tomorrow. Regular release for Champion. Probably late Sept. for general release.

The most under appreciated mid range was the Shark at one time, but not now. Now, the most under appreciated certainly has to be all the incarnations of the #1 Pro. The #1 Pro we made for DGA. It became the Aurora MS. It was also marketed by Wham-0 through Discovering the World as the Apollo.





Hi Dave, I think the #1 Pro was sold under the name Raptor by DTW, it was included in the sereis "Great disc gold holes of the wolrd", see photo:
http://www.discgolfsweden.se/discar/discar_sokdisc_eng.aspx?DiscId=1965

Are you sure that the Wham-O Apollo was the same mold? They look somewhat different?

Dave,

In what plastic, & when do you expect "The Boss" to be available? CFR or Stock?

Thanks,
ChrisP.



We plan on starting the production run of the Champion Boss today or tomorrow. Regular release for Champion. Probably late Sept. for general release.



Maybe I missed it some posts back, but what exactly is the Boss? Where does it fit into Innova's lineup stability and speedwise? Any unique characteristics in the mold (ie. Monarch)? Thanks as always...

The most under appreciated mid range was the Shark at one time, but not now. Now, the most under appreciated certainly has to be all the incarnations of the #1 Pro. The #1 Pro we made for DGA. It became the Aurora MS. It was also marketed by Wham-0 through Discovering the World as the Apollo.





Hi Dave, I think the #1 Pro was sold under the name Raptor by DTW, it was included in the sereis "Great disc gold holes of the wolrd", see photo:
http://www.discgolfsweden.se/discar/discar_sokdisc_eng.aspx?DiscId=1965

Are you sure that the Wham-O Apollo was the same mold? They look somewhat different?



The Raptor was something different. I don't remember it as a Roc derivation at all. The picture looks like a Viper derivative, but I don't recall.

Dave,

In what plastic, & when do you expect "The Boss" to be available? CFR or Stock?

Thanks,
ChrisP.



We plan on starting the production run of the Champion Boss today or tomorrow. Regular release for Champion. Probably late Sept. for general release.



Maybe I missed it some posts back, but what exactly is the Boss? Where does it fit into Innova's lineup stability and speedwise? Any unique characteristics in the mold (ie. Monarch)? Thanks as always...



The Boss is a 13 speed XCaliberish disc. Definitely a big boy disc. Nothing unique, just fast and stable.

Is it more high speed stable than the xcaliber or less? And are there any plans to make it in star or pro? Also is there any thought about making the xcaliber in pro plastic?

how wide are you guys gonna go? seriously.

how wide are you guys gonna go? seriously.


There is a limit in the standards for what will be approved, I imagine that would be as far as they'd bother going.

how wide are you guys gonna go? seriously.



I would imagine as wide as they can make them. Dave said it's a big boy disc. So while it may be out there for the general public, probably less than 10% of the disc golfing public has any business with that disc in their bag.

how wide are you guys gonna go? seriously.


Until they systematically weed out all the disc golfers with small hands.....like myself.

how wide are you guys gonna go? seriously.


Until they systematically weed out all the disc golfers with small hands.....like myself.



and me i have slowly been moving to wider rimmed discs.. just as soon throw a teebird or tl

Is it more high speed stable than the xcaliber or less? And are there any plans to make it in star or pro? Also is there any thought about making the xcaliber in pro plastic?



It is not less stable than the XCaliber. I don't think it is more stable either, but it is more torque resistent. We will eventually make the Boss in Star. I don't know about Pro though. DX, more likely.

I am not sure if we will make the XCaliber in Pro.

how wide are you guys gonna go? seriously.



I would imagine as wide as they can make them. Dave said it's a big boy disc. So while it may be out there for the general public, probably less than 10% of the disc golfing public has any business with that disc in their bag.



Yes, this is as wide as it will get. And yes, much less than 10% of the disc golfing public could use this disc to much advantage. However, Dave F. and Avery J. will probably like it. I like it in the wind myself.

ok, my only question: why come out with an upgrade to the XC when the XC is so young, new. as a marketer, it sems that would only slow XC sales...doesnt seem wise...why not wait and give the XC a year or two of a run in sales...just wondering, i trust your judgement,,,just wondering?
what benefits over the XC?

can this wider rim tech be used / beneficial in a TeeBird type disc...striaght, fairway, good glide, accurate? or is the wider rim only distance worthy.

The most under appreciated mid range was the Shark at one time, but not now. Now, the most under appreciated certainly has to be all the incarnations of the #1 Pro. The #1 Pro we made for DGA. It became the Aurora MS. It was also marketed by Wham-0 through Discovering the World as the Apollo.





Hi Dave, I think the #1 Pro was sold under the name Raptor by DTW, it was included in the sereis "Great disc gold holes of the wolrd", see photo:
http://www.discgolfsweden.se/discar/discar_sokdisc_eng.aspx?DiscId=1965

Are you sure that the Wham-O Apollo was the same mold? They look somewhat different?



The Raptor was something different. I don't remember it as a Roc derivation at all. The picture looks like a Viper derivative, but I don't recall.



OK, thanx Dave, I have to take a closer look.

ok, my only question: why come out with an upgrade to the XC when the XC is so young, new. as a marketer, it sems that would only slow XC sales...doesnt seem wise...why not wait and give the XC a year or two of a run in sales...just wondering, i trust your judgement,,,just wondering?
what benefits over the XC?



Good question. A year is okay for a driver but two years is too much time for flattery. I am fairly sure many players will pass on this disc because the rim is too big. For myself, I needed a more torque resistant side arm disc, and the XCal wasn't quite what I needed.

can this wider rim tech be used / beneficial in a TeeBird type disc...striaght, fairway, good glide, accurate? or is the wider rim only distance worthy.



It is much more difficult to get a straight glider from a wide rim, than speed. Speed is easy. We could make a future model that is faster than the Boss, but I don't think we will.

Dave
I am working on a new course using DisCatchers and have advised the park to make a anti theft upgrade before installation. Many folks have just tack welded the chain support to the top of the pole but that damages the powder coat. We may weld a small rod to the top of the pole that extends a half inch on both sides then slide the chain support up the pole before bolting in place, thus keeping the finish intact. Re-drilling the holes for the support 1/4 inch lower may also be required. A small tack on the bolt in the Locking Collar will also be added on site.
My suggestion is to design a plate that covers the top of the pole and chain support and have it welded in place then hot dip galvanize the plate and the top of the pole. That would give a solid theft deterrent and also not lead to rust.
Is such an improvement possible during production?
Also if possible placing a small graphic on the side of the top band that shows a player putting into the target would go a long way to show park users who don't know what those yellow things are an indication of use.
Is that possible?

And yes, I know that free advise is usually worth less than you pay for it.

My other request is for Glow and UV mini blanks for custom stamping. I understand that they are no longer available. Any chance of doing one more run of those?

Thanks

ok, my only question: why come out with an upgrade to the XC when the XC is so young, new. as a marketer, it sems that would only slow XC sales...doesnt seem wise...why not wait and give the XC a year or two of a run in sales...just wondering, i trust your judgement,,,just wondering?
what benefits over the XC?



Good question. A year is okay for a driver but two years is too much time for flattery. I am fairly sure many players will pass on this disc because the rim is too big. For myself, I needed a more torque resistant side arm disc, and the XCal wasn't quite what I needed.


Yeah, from what you've said about the Boss it does seem that it will completely stop my purchasing of XCalibers. The XCal is a great forehand disc, it added probably 30-40 feet to my hyzer line sidearms. If the Boss is a similar disc with more speed I can see it eliminate my need for an XCal, just as the XCal eliminated my need for a TeeRex.


-Chris.

Dave,

I just purchased Discmania's new DD and noticed on the back of the disc the initialing has a star and AW. What does this mean?

Thanks!

Dave
I am working on a new course using DisCatchers and have advised the park to make a anti theft upgrade before installation. Many folks have just tack welded the chain support to the top of the pole but that damages the powder coat. We may weld a small rod to the top of the pole that extends a half inch on both sides then slide the chain support up the pole before bolting in place, thus keeping the finish intact. Re-drilling the holes for the support 1/4 inch lower may also be required. A small tack on the bolt in the Locking Collar will also be added on site.
My suggestion is to design a plate that covers the top of the pole and chain support and have it welded in place then hot dip galvanize the plate and the top of the pole. That would give a solid theft deterrent and also not lead to rust.
Is such an improvement possible during production?
Also if possible placing a small graphic on the side of the top band that shows a player putting into the target would go a long way to show park users who don't know what those yellow things are an indication of use.
Is that possible?

And yes, I know that free advise is usually worth less than you pay for it.

My other request is for Glow and UV mini blanks for custom stamping. I understand that they are no longer available. Any chance of doing one more run of those?

Thanks



Glow and UV Minis are definitely possible. I will make an effort to produce some of those. The security measures are a bit different. Manufacturing and storage concerns are things we will have to consider also. Thanks for the suggestions.

Dave,

I just purchased Discmania's new DD and noticed on the back of the disc the initialing has a star and AW. What does this mean?

When we initially ran these we didn't have a name so the molders just used that for the designation code. Next run will be S-DD


Thanks!

ok, my only question: why come out with an upgrade to the XC when the XC is so young, new. as a marketer, it sems that would only slow XC sales...doesnt seem wise...why not wait and give the XC a year or two of a run in sales...just wondering, i trust your judgement,,,just wondering?
what benefits over the XC?



Good question. A year is okay for a driver but two years is too much time for flattery. I am fairly sure many players will pass on this disc because the rim is too big. For myself, I needed a more torque resistant side arm disc, and the XCal wasn't quite what I needed.


Yeah, from what you've said about the Boss it does seem that it will completely stop my purchasing of XCalibers. The XCal is a great forehand disc, it added probably 30-40 feet to my hyzer line sidearms. If the Boss is a similar disc with more speed I can see it eliminate my need for an XCal, just as the XCal eliminated my need for a TeeRex.


-Chris.



The XCal did take the place of the TeeRex for me, and the test shot Boss's would have taken the place of the XC, but there might be a change. We just started running the Boss and it seems a little different from the test run. This kind of thing happens as the test run is short and the mold might never reach homeostasis. At any rate, we will know after this weekend of testing. As it stands now, the current run of the Boss seems to be more Destroyer like than XCaliber like. They also seem to be going farther than the test run Boss too. This might be somewhat related to weight as the 175s seem a little more stable than the 171s.

ok, my only question: why come out with an upgrade to the XC when the XC is so young, new. as a marketer, it sems that would only slow XC sales...doesnt seem wise...why not wait and give the XC a year or two of a run in sales...just wondering, i trust your judgement,,,just wondering?
what benefits over the XC?



Good question. A year is okay for a driver but two years is too much time for flattery. I am fairly sure many players will pass on this disc because the rim is too big. For myself, I needed a more torque resistant side arm disc, and the XCal wasn't quite what I needed.

I'm not sure there are many players who will "pass." That doesn't seem to happen when there is a new threshold broken. The fact that it is touted as Innova's fastest disc will cause many of us to buy it regardless if we should or not. Maybe more experienced players would pass, but not the 5 and less year guys. I love the brand, but things do seem to quickly become obselete. I.E. Starfire to TeeRex to Destroyer, MAX to XCAL to BOSS!
It seems that there is little need anymore for the 10 speed discs! I have little opportunity to get a feel for a mold in different plastics and another big dog comes out and I don't want to lose any equipment advantage. You dudes keep the pressure on! Having said that, I'm committed to Innova!

Hi Dave,

Could you give a quick explanation of what you mean by torque-resistent?

Also, will you be at the SVO this weekend? Love to sneak a peak at a Boss.

Maybe the PDGA logo and header decal could be added to the yellow band for advertising/info purposes. It already exists and there may be some 'future considerations' that could be worked out with the organization. Of course the number plate on the existing logo may advertise a competitor.
Seems like easy good advertising, especially if you put a DisCatcher silhouette in place of the Mach III.

Thanks for your time.

a random point is the fact that i believe the speed rating depends on more than rim width. some discs have a sharper nose, like the wraith and destroyer, and others have a more blunt nose, like the max, tee-rex, and xcal. i believe a speed 10 beast is faster through the air than a speed 11 max, despite the rim of the max being wider. i think a solf or sidewinder is faster than a monster, which has a wider rim.

Hi Dave,

Could you give a quick explanation of what you mean by torque-resistent?

Also, will you be at the SVO this weekend? Love to sneak a peak at a Boss.



No, not going to make the SVO this time around. I am going to be at La Mirada in the morning.

Torque resistance is a form of stability. It has to do with resistance to turn over, despite off axis torque on high speed throws. A disc with high torque resistance will dampen off axis torque quickly. Off axis torque disrupts aerodynamic flow and can upset stability. The Pig has good torque resistance, especially for a non driver. Most overstable drivers have good torque resistance. Torque resistance is tested severely on high speed, nose down throws.

Hey Dave,

I have another Discmania question...How comparable is the Millenium SOLF to the Discmania PD. Are they nearly the same mold? Their flight is similar and they feel nearly the same....

Thanks again!

[/QUOTE]

For myself, I needed a more torque resistant side arm disc, and the XCal wasn't quite what I needed.

[/QUOTE]

Dave, I second that!

I do really like the XCaliber, but it is a bit "touchy" on power sidearm drives (I'm using one of the first run Champion ones). I find the Max is more overstable (torque resistant, in this case), but I can't get as much D from it The Boss sounds like what I need!

I think you will sell a lot of these as sidearm drivers if they turn out to be higher speed and more torque resistant than the XCaliber.

Any ETA on first production release dates? How is the testing going?

Really? I disagree completely. I can power an XCaliber WAY FURTHER than anything else without flipping it, out to 375-80 on an okay huck. If I put the same amount of power on a Destroyer it'll flip up/over and fly on a big s-curve for miles. XCals are way more reliable for big forehand hyzers, IMHO, than anything else.

Hey Dave,

I have another Discmania question...How comparable is the Millenium SOLF to the Discmania PD. Are they nearly the same mold? Their flight is similar and they feel nearly the same....

Thanks again!




They are comparable in speed, but I believe the PD is more comparable to a Firebird/Starfire, and the SOLF is more comparable to a CD,Viking or Valkyrie. They are different molds.

For myself, I needed a more torque resistant side arm disc, and the XCal wasn't quite what I needed.

[/QUOTE]

Dave, I second that!

I do really like the XCaliber, but it is a bit "touchy" on power sidearm drives (I'm using one of the first run Champion ones). I find the Max is more overstable (torque resistant, in this case), but I can't get as much D from it The Boss sounds like what I need!

I think you will sell a lot of these as sidearm drivers if they turn out to be higher speed and more torque resistant than the XCaliber.

Any ETA on first production release dates? How is the testing going?

[/QUOTE]

No date on main production release date, but it shouldn't be later than the end of September or beginning of October. We may have some pre release in September. Main testing will happen tomorrow and Sunday and we will know if the run is more like Destroyers now, or like XCals, as originally thought.

[ Main testing will happen tomorrow and Sunday and we will know if the run is more like Destroyers now, or like XCals, as originally thought.



How'd the testing go?

They went so far they haven't found them all yet...

[ Main testing will happen tomorrow and Sunday and we will know if the run is more like Destroyers now, or like XCals, as originally thought.



How'd the testing go?



Testing went all over the place. All of the discs we ran thursday and friday may have to be scrapped as the flight plates warped. I went in on Saturday to make good parts. Sunday, testing proceded to produce the original XCaliberish type Boss. Today, we went back into production and were producing a similar XCaliberish Boss. The stable type Bosses were very predictable and very powerful into the wind, but didn't really make anyone go "wow", even though they were an obvious next step. However, the Bosses scheduled for scrap did make us go "wow", and are easily the farthest flying disc we have made, (without wind aid). These two versions do not fly like each other, but have tremendous merit, each on their own. The scrap Bosses basically have warped flight plates so we call those Warp Technology Bosses. The scrap Warp Bosses are much more user friendly than the "good" ones, but they don't look good. So......what do we do? Market crappy scrappy fly a mile, or pretty, overstable, power disc?

A few were spotted at the Sun Valley Open over the weekend...

Seems like most of your market would want something that would fly a mile over something that would be another super overstable driver.

I want both.

Why not sell them as x-outs?

i understand xouts tobe basically flight sound with slight visual imperfections

I will take a scrappy crappy fly for a mile disc over a pretty one any day! Send them bad boys to me!!

Scrappy crappy fly a mile should go into CFR and should be sent to Innova East yesterday so I can get some for the (hopeful) 2nd batch of CFR's for my tourney.
:D

So......what do we do? Market crappy scrappy fly a mile, or pretty, overstable, power disc?



you could auction off those warp-drive power flyers on E-bay for charity -- they might fetch some crazy prices: especially if they will never be made again. maybe for some worthy cause like EDGE or <font color="blue"> THE BLUE PRO ORC RESURRECTION FUND!!! :p :D </font>

i understand xouts tobe basically flight sound with slight visual imperfections



Yes, they would have to be some form of X-out. But X-outs don't sell well. Most people want the disc to look pretty. This time the X-out would not fly the same, and that would be confusing to boot.

Dave IMHO you have a large potential market with a fly a mile fast disc. Most players, contrary to message baord distance, don't have the arms or technique to get the full benifit out of the current high speed discs. I see them try to always with the same affect. Too stable.
As for them being x-outs I really don't think that would make that much of a difference. Currently I throw Pro Orc x-outs when I need distance. Give me a faster disc that I can actually throw and I'll snatch up as many as possible. I know of many others that feel the same way. We've got enough pretty discs. Now we want something that may make us mere mortals go WOW.

I would prefer the fly a mile disc over the stable form just because i already have the discs that are stable like xcalibers and max's but im looking for more distance that can put me closer to the pins that I couldnt reach before. Bring on the DISTANCE!

X-outs are great, and so are pro orcs!

I hate tell the people on this board this, but we're not the target demographic for Innova. While we may play more, and buy more plastic, I'm pretty sure that the majority of their sales are to people who play under 5 rounds a week and own less than 10 discs. Trying to sell a warped disc to these people isn't a good business decision.

However, if you can figure out how to simulate the flight of the warped ones with a clean part, then you might have hit the jackpot.

I completely understand what Innova's target demographic is, but we're not talking about a full run of discs. Just a small batch that were used for testing. In that case there is a market for them.

Just a small batch that were used for testing. In that case there is a market for them.



It's a borderline grey area per the tech specs let alone potentially "unfair" to have what the manufacturer indicates is a subset of their production with different flight characteristics and not have at least 500 available for sale.

Just a small batch that were used for testing. In that case there is a market for them.



It's a borderline grey area per the tech specs let alone potentially "unfair" to have what the manufacturer indicates is a subset of their production with different flight characteristics and not have at least 500 available for sale.



Although I don't disagree with you in principle, these discs would meet the specs. The cosmetics have nothing to do with the specs. Everything that is measured by the specs is there. I agree with further that it might be a bad business decision. Also, 500 is a silly small number when it comes to qualifying for play in PDGA. Supposedly 500 is suppose to ensure everyone who wants one can get one. If people wanted these, we would make plenty. Also, it was more than a small batch. A small batch was tested. A very large batch was made. Most will be reprocessed.

The issue of one disc not flying like another is a non issue. That has been happening forever and will continue to happen. The only real issue is availability. That issue doesn't seem to matter to the PDGA, because 500 doesn't do anything to insure availability.

So are these going to be available? PLEASE dont reprocess. SELL SELL SELL

I fundamentally agree that as long as a disc meets the specs, it's fine. I think discovering "special" disc runs that only appear to be available to some players is just a minor PR issue for manufacturers who may be perceived as not playing fair even though there's no discernable scoring advantage. I don't see the 500 number as something that truly affects the competitive scene but the specs at least need to make it look like it's a more level playing field.

So are these going to be available? PLEASE dont reprocess. SELL SELL SELL



I completley agree with this. All manufacturers have had runs within a run "special discs" over the years. These have become highly coveted items and not just for collectors. Gummy Sharks, Gummy KC ROCs, 2nd run CE Valks, flat top Z-Buzzz's and the list could go on.

If for some reason you have to reprocess these fly a mile discs then could I offer a suggestion to specifically produce something that would be an equivilent. There is a large market for such an animal. Maybe a Boss-L for the 95% of golfers that don't throw over 300-350 feet.

Or do what someone suggested earlier. Sell them as a limited run fundraising disc and donate the money to Edge or another charity.

X-out fly a mile Boss's for $15 to $20 ea.. I'll take a dozen right now.

Or do what someone suggested earlier. Sell them as a limited run fundraising disc and donate the money to Edge or another charity.

X-out fly a mile Boss's for $15 to $20 ea.. I'll take a dozen right now.



I think we are going to do something like that. The Masters tournament will have some prereleases. Possibly some of the X-outs will be made available too if there is any interest. SoCal has already expressed an interest.

SoCal has already expressed an interest.


Suzette must have thrown a test model 450'... :eek:

What about having some at USDGC (or the Doubles tourney the weekend prior)?. There's a lot of folks in and around Winthrop/Charlotte that can quickly give you a feel for the market potential.

I buy X-Outs in the models I throw whenever I can find them in the weights I want. The money I've saved buying x-outs I would gladly use for some limited edition CFR "Fly-A-Mile" driver.

I buy X-Outs in the models I throw whenever I can find them in the weights I want. The money I've saved buying x-outs I would gladly use for some limited edition CFR "Fly-A-Mile" driver.



I am getting a little nervous about the "fly a mile" thing I said. Usually I don't engage in hyperbole. It doesn't fly much farther than a good Destroyer shot, it just feels like it does and is easier for me to throw. The regular Boss doesn't fly any farther than the Destroyer and is more difficult for me to throw. The regular Boss is, for me, an excellent side arm power disc, and an into the wind or spike disc and basically takes the place of the XCaliber. The biggest problem I have with the Boss is the weight, not the rim. The weight is essentially maximum weight only at this point. I like to throw 168 gms plus or minus 4 gms.

Well i still like the idea of a disc that flies like a destroyer but is easier to throw and is faster. I dont care if it doesnt fly any further I would still gladly take some of the deestroyer type Boss's

i like getting x-outs. good for shots where possibly losing one is high ( over water, dense rough ). will the Boss be as reliable as far as its fade like the Max?

I buy X-Outs in the models I throw whenever I can find them in the weights I want. The money I've saved buying x-outs I would gladly use for some limited edition CFR "Fly-A-Mile" driver.



I am getting a little nervous about the "fly a mile" thing I said. Usually I don't engage in hyperbole. It doesn't fly much farther than a good Destroyer shot, it just feels like it does and is easier for me to throw. The regular Boss doesn't fly any farther than the Destroyer and is more difficult for me to throw. The regular Boss is, for me, an excellent side arm power disc, and an into the wind or spike disc and basically takes the place of the XCaliber. The biggest problem I have with the Boss is the weight, not the rim. The weight is essentially maximum weight only at this point. I like to throw 168 gms plus or minus 4 gms.




I for one am glad that you still get excited about new discs during testing :D. Its easy to get pumped up when a disc does something that you didn't necessarily anticipate. That twinge of excitement is how you guys make your most your $ imo. None of us NEED more discs...

Dave (or anyone who knows)----I recently picked up a CFR Archangel and was wondering what to expect as far as flight characteristics. It is 174 grams and about the gummiest, grippiest champion plastic I've seen in a while. I've heard that these fly nothing like DX angels, and I am wanting to know what it is "supposed" to do before I try it out. (I think I read somewhere that they're very overstable). As always, thanks.

Or do what someone suggested earlier. Sell them as a limited run fundraising disc and donate the money to Edge or another charity.

X-out fly a mile Boss's for $15 to $20 ea.. I'll take a dozen right now.



I think we are going to do something like that. The Masters tournament will have some prereleases. Possibly some of the X-outs will be made available too if there is any interest. SoCal has already expressed an interest.



Oh great, So I can buy one off Ebay for $50 from someone that lives in California.

How about offering them to retailers? <font color="red"> </font>

Dave (or anyone who knows)----I recently picked up a CFR Archangel and was wondering what to expect as far as flight characteristics. It is 174 grams and about the gummiest, grippiest champion plastic I've seen in a while. I've heard that these fly nothing like DX angels, and I am wanting to know what it is "supposed" to do before I try it out. (I think I read somewhere that they're very overstable). As always, thanks.



I remember those. They are quite overstable, kind of like a faster TB b/c they still glide well.. They fly pretty far if you get them turned over.

Dave ... a question about disc ratings. Is the Innova disc rating supposed to be accurate when the disc is new ... or is it more accurate when the disc is broken in and in it's prime?

dave--i would release the "good parts" boss's that are what you want, overstable like the 1st test shot, with the regular stamp, and just sell the others that are warped as x-outs to retailers and let the buyers figure out how they fly.

As you may remember i love Pro Orcs... Recently a friend had me throw his new Star Beast and the thing outflew my Pro Orc and had a very similar flight. (newer one from the more durable run of Pro Orcs)... Is that an anomaly or is that one of the reasons you kept the Pro Beast but discontinued the Pro Orc? I used to throw the old Beast -- did it get re-tooled?

I am finding my Destroyer is the bomb for headwind and long hyzer all the way shots, but still love Pro Orcs for max. D hyzer flips...

Dave (or anyone who knows)----I recently picked up a CFR Archangel and was wondering what to expect as far as flight characteristics. It is 174 grams and about the gummiest, grippiest champion plastic I've seen in a while. I've heard that these fly nothing like DX angels, and I am wanting to know what it is "supposed" to do before I try it out. (I think I read somewhere that they're very overstable). As always, thanks.



It is true that they don't fly like DX, but I wouldn't characterize them as "very" over stable. But they are way more high speed stable than a DX. They are stable to over stable, with decent speed and a lot of glide.

Well i still like the idea of a disc that flies like a destroyer but is easier to throw and is faster. I dont care if it doesnt fly any further I would still gladly take some of the deestroyer type Boss's



I would love to make and distribute these widely, if I could make them look good. The problem is mainly that they look bad. That doesn't reflect well on our company.

i like getting x-outs. good for shots where possibly losing one is high ( over water, dense rough ). will the Boss be as reliable as far as its fade like the Max?



That remains to be seen and proven, but I believe so at this point. I am referring to the normal Bosses.

Dave ... a question about disc ratings. Is the Innova disc rating supposed to be accurate when the disc is new ... or is it more accurate when the disc is broken in and in it's prime?



That's a good question. Usually, I give the discs a day old rating from play after a couple of rounds on a nice course. The discs would have a few scratches and scuffs, but nothing major like a tree slam or a street grind.