Dave D,
Do you remember back in 1996 when Carrie Keeler (5-10" tall, blond ex-girlfriend, great athlete and physical specimen who took you to the hole in the ware house) and I came to your shop and you and I were discussing stiff Big beads and why I used them?
I mentioned to you that I used stiffer and less grippy surface Aviars for laying up for 2 main reasons.
1) when a stiffer putter hits the ground it will spin in place for a second similar to checking up on the green with as a golf ball will with back spin.
This same thing happens in the chains,especially on left side hits ( Kenny's specialty).
2) when throwing lay up shots through foliage a harder less grippy putter has way less chance of getting hung up on leaves and branches.

I remember asking you time and again for a softer big bead for putting.
I got some of those first orange small Innova stamped big beads from Bob Dodge in a Plastic that was the 1st run of DX, it was very similar what was eventually produced in the 8X rocs. firm yet grippy on the surface.

I have never been known for being a great putter but have seen many over the years.
I have also taken slow motion video of discs hitting the chains and have watched for hours.
Fromour test results, medium and firmer Putters catch way more putts than Super soft.


You don't see a trend over the years with Innovas' top ranked players and their migration towards firmer putters.
I know both Kenny and Barry use VERY firm putters and since they are 2 of the best players ever in disc golf, I see a lot of golfers emulating their style.
Their push-flick style works much better with a firmer putter than a more flexible one.

One putter does not fit all..
































































although the Aviar comes close.

Dave,
Any chance that innova can invent a putter to satisfy both parties?
A stiff centered putter with a grippy outer layer?
After reading pages of posts on the subject, just wanted to interject.

Also, What are the plans on the usdgc rocs? is there a contest for the artwork or do you already have some ideas?
My vote is for descrete complexity. A small design of great detail and coolness!

Neat question! I'm guessing that the answer will be that it will be difficult if not impossible to consistently merge(?) two types of plastics via injection molding alone.

But how about something like the Quest/Odyssey putter?

I have also noticed that (when throwing RHBH) firm putters will stick better on the right side, and bounce out more on the left side. Softer putters will stick more on the left side, and bounce out more on the right side. I like a soft wiz for inside the circle, and a stiffer 10x for jumpers and upshots.

How big is the difference between pro FL and star FL?
I might guess that pro FL has an s-curve and star FL straight and fade.
Like a beat in vs new teebird whitout the glide?

The Star FL is way more Overstable than the Pro FL. Both are still flippy for overhands.

Ok, thanks. So a star FL would go predictably straight and fade, were a champ/star Firebird would fade too early with forhand?

Dave,
Any chance that innova can invent a putter to satisfy both parties?
A stiff centered putter with a grippy outer layer?
After reading pages of posts on the subject, just wanted to interject.

Also, What are the plans on the usdgc rocs? is there a contest for the artwork or do you already have some ideas?
My vote is for descrete complexity. A small design of great detail and coolness!



Mixing the two would definitely be excellent and satisfy alot of people. A great grip with plenty of stability in the center for straighter, more accurate shots would be the ideal putter for everyone.

My bag is literally falling apart as I have been waiting 6 months for this bag to come out. I know you said ZD was handling it, but maybe it's time for you to get involved as many people are anxiously awaiting this bag and its delay has become almost comical. Could you please update us on the progress and give us a projected release date and price? Thanks.



I was told they will be inspected around Friday. If they pass inspection, they should be available within a week or so after.


What's the word Dave? This was 2 weeks ago.....I guess they didn't pass inspection. :confused:

Dave,
Any chance that innova can invent a putter to satisfy both parties?
A stiff centered putter with a grippy outer layer?
After reading pages of posts on the subject, just wanted to interject.

Also, What are the plans on the usdgc rocs? is there a contest for the artwork or do you already have some ideas?
My vote is for descrete complexity. A small design of great detail and coolness!



Mixing the two would definitely be excellent and satisfy alot of people. A great grip with plenty of stability in the center for straighter, more accurate shots would be the ideal putter for everyone.




Why? I mean the soft outer edge would still yeild the possibility of an inconsistant release just like any other SS. :confused:

Wait a second, whats pitch putting?



Pitch putt vs. spin putt (http://www.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?Board=Throwing%20Techniques&Number=198646&Searchpage=0&Main=198628&Search=true&#Post198646)

check out this post too! (http://www.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?Board=Throwing Techniques&Number=200135&Searchpage=0&Main=198628&Search=true&#Post200135)





I'm not sure that I agree with Dave Dunipace on his definitions. The idea that one is a spin putt and the other is a pitch putt seems incorrect (if the idea is that a pitch has no spin) even for Ken and Barry. It is highly unlikely that either could toss a putter 50 or 60 feet with absolutley no spin (see Worlds Coverage and USDGC footage from 2003 - 2005) Turbo putts which are almost devoid of spin tend to fall very fast and non-spin discs tend to flip head over tail.

Ken and Barry don't put much spin on their discs (Barry seems to put less than Ken) but there is spin. I use the Pitch putt myself, for the obvious reason that the two top players in the world use it. But I use what I would refer to as a modified Pitch Putt. I place my hand well forward on the disc with my forefinger on the rim, my second or middle finger on the underside of the plate and my ring finger and pinky loose or lightly resting on the plastic next to my forefinger. As I lift the disc I add spin with my wrist spinning the disc lightly off of my forefinger.

When done right I can get a lot of float and hit some very long (40 feet) putts with this technique.

Pluses: The disc spins so there is no wobble and it looks beautiful in flight (I get less wobble than many of the "spin" putters out there). While my tendancy is to throw an arching putt, you can get enough spin to throw a very flat putt that rises just enough to clear the basket similar to a spin putt. You're also working more in one plain than in two although the spin you're putting on the disc does tend to bring the horizontal plain back into play. By using a more arching throw you tend to spare yourself the flybys that can come with the "spin" putt.

BTW, I tend to call them the push putt (spin putt) and the lift putt (pitch putt) which does not imply spin one way or the other. I've seen guys do each type with more and less spin.

Harder putters=more consistant release. I took me 5 years to figure this out as well as Blake_T hounding me about it until I switched but it has helped my game tremendously.

I also was using the 3x JK's.



In defense of the postion taken by Matt and Mr. Gateway, when I first started playing everyone said get a soft putter, it flexes when it hits the chains and thus avoids bounce outs. There is another way to view this. When we toss a disc into the basket we impart energy on the disc. a hard disc hit's the chains and either the energy disapates into the chains and basket or some amount remains in the disc and it flies through. A soft disc may do the same thing, but it may also flex maintaining more energy in the disc, in the form of the flex. When that energy disapates, i.e. the disc unflexes, where does the energy go? If some of the energy went into the chains and they are now pushing back, and the flex happens at the same time, you have a lot of energy going back out to the side of the basket and a spit out.

Now, I'm not saying that's what happens, but I have a tendancy to believe science. When Mr. Gateway says they've videotaped lots of putts and see a difference, I wonder why. So, Mr. Gateway, did you guys do your experiments with a machine (a putting machine) or by hand, and what are the numbers.

Using Champion Aviars since 2005!

Dave,
Any chance that innova can invent a putter to satisfy both parties?
A stiff centered putter with a grippy outer layer?
After reading pages of posts on the subject, just wanted to interject.

Also, What are the plans on the usdgc rocs? is there a contest for the artwork or do you already have some ideas?
My vote is for descrete complexity. A small design of great detail and coolness!



yes, you can have a relatively stiff center and a grippy rim. We have the plastic, but we haven't figured how to make it work properly yet.

I don't know anything about the artwork on the USDGC Rocs. The East Coast takes care of that. I make them. They are listening to the feedback you guys are giving. So am I.

Neat question! I'm guessing that the answer will be that it will be difficult if not impossible to consistently merge(?) two types of plastics via injection molding alone.

But how about something like the Quest/Odyssey putter?



Both can be done. Just depends how you set it up.

I was told they will be inspected around Friday. If they pass inspection, they should be available within a week or so after.


What's the word Dave? This was 2 weeks ago.....I guess they didn't pass inspection. :confused:

[/QUOTE]

They passed inspection last Friday. They should be available this Friday or Monday after. The East Coast should know better than I.

Wait a second, whats pitch putting?



Pitch putt vs. spin putt (http://www.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?Board=Throwing%20Techniques&Number=198646&Searchpage=0&Main=198628&Search=true&#Post198646)

check out this post too! (http://www.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?Board=Throwing Techniques&Number=200135&Searchpage=0&Main=198628&Search=true&#Post200135)





I'm not sure that I agree with Dave Dunipace on his definitions. The idea that one is a spin putt and the other is a pitch putt seems incorrect (if the idea is that a pitch has no spin) even for Ken and Barry. It is highly unlikely that either could toss a putter 50 or 60 feet with absolutley no spin (see Worlds Coverage and USDGC footage from 2003 - 2005) Turbo putts which are almost devoid of spin tend to fall very fast and non-spin discs tend to flip head over tail.

Ken and Barry don't put much spin on their discs (Barry seems to put less than Ken) but there is spin. I use the Pitch putt myself, for the obvious reason that the two top players in the world use it. But I use what I would refer to as a modified Pitch Putt. I place my hand well forward on the disc with my forefinger on the rim, my second or middle finger on the underside of the plate and my ring finger and pinky loose or lightly resting on the plastic next to my forefinger. As I lift the disc I add spin with my wrist spinning the disc lightly off of my forefinger.

When done right I can get a lot of float and hit some very long (40 feet) putts with this technique.

Pluses: The disc spins so there is no wobble and it looks beautiful in flight (I get less wobble than many of the "spin" putters out there). While my tendancy is to throw an arching putt, you can get enough spin to throw a very flat putt that rises just enough to clear the basket similar to a spin putt. You're also working more in one plain than in two although the spin you're putting on the disc does tend to bring the horizontal plain back into play. By using a more arching throw you tend to spare yourself the flybys that can come with the "spin" putt.

BTW, I tend to call them the push putt (spin putt) and the lift putt (pitch putt) which does not imply spin one way or the other. I've seen guys do each type with more and less spin.



Actually, I agree with you, and don't call it the "spin" putt, I call it the fly putt, and the main difference between the pitch and the fly, is the down to up arm motion for the pitch, and the much more level arm extension for the fly. A couple of my associates writing the EDGE manual insisted that "Spin" was the correct name even after I said the same thing you did.

I had a few problems with Lyle's post. For instance I think we have a totally different idea of a turbo putt and just because it is called a "pitch" putt that doesn't mean it doesn't spin. Also when I think spin I don't think Barry and Ken but more Avery and Dave. JD Ramirez also has a great putt which is more of a straight line pitch.

I also consider nearly every pitch putter to use the "push" motion which occurs during/after the finger spring. One really good example of a push putter who doesn't pitch is Chris "Machine" Heeren and he pushes the disc with his palm a whole lot and he is in the top 3 putters I know.

Most people hear in the Houston area are spin or throw putters but the few who pitch seem to rise above the rest. You should also be able to do a pitch up to 40ft with little spin and with a little more you can easily get to 50'. BTW I don't think Barry's putt is his strong point especially his 20 footers. :D

Dave..when was the CFR starfire debut..was it late 2003 or early 2004?

I have a first run green CFR starfire form the Am WOrlds Doub's and I think it was a 2004, but I know the disc was out before that so I am thinking 2003. It came out after the orc did so that might help place it.

i definitely use a soft putter and will stick with it as my style tends to be better for a soft putter.

oh and Dave the Max is by far the best side are disc you guys have ever made, i cant go without this one now
mj

Dave..when was the CFR starfire debut..was it late 2003 or early 2004?


It was approved may 8, 03

Good morning Dave,

Off of the top of your head, do you know how many team members throw champ/star rocs? From glancing at the website, it looks like most prefer KC plastic.

Thanks

Hi Dave--will there be a stamp designation for the G-star? any time line on G-star spiders? thanks, i think this is a great idea

I don't know anything about the artwork on the USDGC Rocs. The East Coast takes care of that. I make them. They are listening to the feedback you guys are giving. So am I.



Dave, 1st time post, long time reader.. big fan.

I really like the throwback stamp from last year. If I could make a suggestion for the 2007 Roc, I would like to see the 'Wings & Rings' (or slightly modified version) stamp on a USDGC Roc. How cool would that be?? Another idea would be a bottom-stamped Star Roc.

I've got an old CFR Whippet with the simplest stamp ever. I know it showed up on some other CFR stuff (gators?). Just a foil ring about a 2 inches in from the edge. I thought it was a little silly at first, but it really elicits a lot of "what was that?" Perhaps that has more to do with the flight of the disc, but as the years have gone by and the stamp fades more and more, I've grown much more attached to the ring.

I like that stamp as well, reminds me of the 7x, 8x, and 9x KC stamps.

Bring back the Football stamp please

Good morning Dave,

Off of the top of your head, do you know how many team members throw champ/star rocs? From glancing at the website, it looks like most prefer KC plastic.

Thanks



No, I don't know. Most throw Rocs of some sort.

Hi Dave--will there be a stamp designation for the G-star? any time line on G-star spiders? thanks, i think this is a great idea



That is a good idea, but we hadn't considered it yet.

Simplicity is cool...! IMHO, regular runs should be simple or simpler stamp designs...while complicated hotstamps are best for tourneys. Both can be done for USDGC discs and folks can choose.
.02

Jay Reading and Mike Hofmann throw an '01 CE Roc. That is all i know of as far as Team members.

TThanks.

Dave,

Two things,

Why oh why did you discontinue the Champion Aviar? I know sales were probably low but obviously there was a demand since as soon as you did it they disappeared. I can't find a max weight Champion Aviar anywhere!

Have you guys changed the Coyote? All the Champion Coyotes in my local reseller are very different from those I've bought in the past. They all have a much higher dome than previously. Is this an experiment, a permanent change, or a funky batch. If it's a change how does it change the flight?

Dave,

Two things,

Why oh why did you discontinue the Champion Aviar? I know sales were probably low but obviously there was a demand since as soon as you did it they disappeared. I can't find a max weight Champion Aviar anywhere!

Have you guys changed the Coyote? All the Champion Coyotes in my local reseller are very different from those I've bought in the past. They all have a much higher dome than previously. Is this an experiment, a permanent change, or a funky batch. If it's a change how does it change the flight?



We didn't think we needed the Champion Aviar in the form it was made. We wanted a grippier plastic, and they didn't fly like we wanted. We are continuing to make a version of the Champion Aviar for the Champion 3-pack, so some will still be around, but still probably not in the heavier weights.

We didn't change the Coyotes. There are always variations in the plastics from run to run. I am still playing with the original Champion though I have tried a dark blue Star, which seemed pretty stable. Not sure how the higher dome will affect the stability, but it will give it more glide. Chances are, if it is domier, it will turn more, but that is not always the case.

Hi Dave--will there be a stamp designation for the G-star? any time line on G-star spiders? thanks, i think this is a great idea



That is a good idea, but we hadn't considered it yet.



Do it!!! That would be SWEET!!!

Hey Dave, the KC, JK, and Star Driver all come out of the same mold. Why does the JK come out more high speed stable? It seems to me the KC Pro's are much flatter and the nose much more blunt. Would it be possible to re-create this shape (if you agree) in the Star?

Hi Dave--will there be a stamp designation for the G-star? any time line on G-star spiders? thanks, i think this is a great idea



That is a good idea, but we hadn't considered it yet.



Do it!!! That would be SWEET!!!

Hey Dave, the KC, JK, and Star Driver all come out of the same mold. Why does the JK come out more high speed stable? It seems to me the KC Pro's are much flatter and the nose much more blunt. Would it be possible to re-create this shape (if you agree) in the Star?



Yes, it's possible to do a lot with the same mold, as plastic is very plastic. :)

another idea on the usdgc rocs, I remember hearing that colored glow wasn't possible, but how about glow w/ colors swirled in, blue or red would be badarss. I also like the simple stamps, and lower quantities

I think both Dcraft and Innova made purple/pink glow plastic back in the day.

I do know Innova made both pink and a lavender color in glow plastic. The ones I have are all SM Rocs with stamps from Morley Field. Might have one from La Mirada too.

Don't know about the other mfr's. But, DGA made some sweet Pink Lady Midnight Flyers in 42 and 70 molds.

another idea on the usdgc rocs, I remember hearing that colored glow wasn't possible, but how about glow w/ colors swirled in, blue or red would be badarss. I also like the simple stamps, and lower quantities



Star glow isn't feasible, but tinted (Ice) Champion could be. Any coloring tends to mask the effects, but a slight tint shouldn't matter much.

Dave,
Could you do a glowing hot stamp? Since you can't mix glow material and star plastic, maybe just a coating on the outside of a glow material would be sufficient. Or, it could be a possible hybrid disc with champ/star plastic for the wing and a glowfly type plastic for the flight plate. The glowfly I had was the only glow disc I ever considered using at night since all the other ones required constant recharging.

Also, is there any way to make a transparent star plastic? Since I use glowsticks for night golf, I have to stick with transparent champion because they are not bright enough to shine through any other plastic.

Dave,
Could you do a glowing hot stamp? Since you can't mix glow material and star plastic, maybe just a coating on the outside of a glow material would be sufficient. Or, it could be a possible hybrid disc with champ/star plastic for the wing and a glowfly type plastic for the flight plate. The glowfly I had was the only glow disc I ever considered using at night since all the other ones required constant recharging.

Also, is there any way to make a transparent star plastic? Since I use glowsticks for night golf, I have to stick with transparent champion because they are not bright enough to shine through any other plastic.



I don't know if there is such a thing as glow foil, but that would be interesting. Right now, we can't make transparent Star.

<font color="blue">Right now</font>, we can't make transparent Star.



We'll be waiting ;)

<font color="blue">Right now</font>, we can't make transparent Star.



We'll be waiting ;)



Forget that! The only thing worth waiting for would be grippier CE or Champ. Then you have transparent AND durable.

Hi Dave,
Thanks for the response! I think it would be a cool concept disc.

On another note...
I was playing today and noticed the stamp of my Star "Homie" Rhyno is losing it's red with just a few week's use.
Have you thought of any methods to battle stamp-fading? I've got alot of cool stamps from around the country that fade out quickly I'd like to keep new-looking. Maybe some type of silk screening process able to penetrate the plastic? Just a thought!
Thanks

Dave,

I recently bought a Golden State Classic Fundraiser Wraith-X. When it arrived, "TRX" was written on the bottom. Is this really a Wraith that's more overstable or is a Teerex...or is there really no difference between those two things.

Also...can you please compare the flights of a max weight Champion-T (Teebird) with a Star-TB. I only have thrown the Star-TB (and loved it).

Sorry if this is earlier in the thread somewhere but I can't find anything with the search function on this board.

Thanks,

Max

The TRX is on the bottom of the disc because Dave has been trying different TeeRex mold variations in an attempt to make a more consistently overstable TeeRex. The Wraith-X was one variation that, while not particularly high speed stable, was still considered successful as a disc and thus the proto run wasn't ground up but sold as a fundraiser instead. It was dubbed the Wraith-X because it's flight (especially in high speed) more closely resembles the Wraith. They turn a little and hold that angle until they finally turn out and fade slightly harder than a wraith would. Mine flies pretty much like my very beat up 1st run teerex.

My Star TeeBirds are far more overstable than my champion TeeBirds (in max weight). Both tend to be straight at high speed but I find my champion TB's to turn slightly and my Star TB to be overstable even in high speed. For me, the champion TB seems to have more glide than I expect, but since the Star is that much more overstable, there is some sacrifice in glide (low speed) and distance potential. As a friend of mine once said, "TeeBirds just want to fly farther for some reason" meaning that for a "7" speed driver it's strange that they get out there so well

Thanks,

That was a very helpful post. I guess the "Wraith-X" I bought should fly like I hoped it would. I'll have to find out if the snow ever melts. I accidentally ordered x-out Champ Teebirds thinking I was getting x-out Star TBs. Too bad. Guess I'll have to order a couple more discs.

Thanks! Dave, if you have anything more to add, please do so...otherwise, questions answered.

-Max

Dave, I have heard of many different types of beaded aviars, such as the micro bead, small bead, and big bead. Could you please explain the differences to me.

I also prefer the Champion Teebird compared to the Star. After recieving my star teebirds I waited out the winter and as soon as the weather got warmer i put them away for good. I honestly don't like the Teebird in Star and it's the least like a teebird than any other plastic.

My favorite teebirds are the 11x candy teebirds. The champion ones are less stable than these, but are still nice.
The DX is becoming my favorite teebird since they started running them in the newer DX. I only carrry the DX teebirds right now as I sold all my 11x's and don't have a use for the Stars. They are too overstable and they don't carry enough distance to be a long hyzer disc.

-Scott Lewis

Dave, I have heard of many different types of beaded aviars, such as the micro bead, small bead, and big bead. Could you please explain the differences to me.



We have never made a micro bead. If there is such a thing, it must be an artifact of molding. Probably a type of small bead.

The bead is more a feel thing than anything else. The original Aviar was beadless, and the current normal Aviar is also beadless. The Aviar P&A has a small bead for a long time, but no longer. The Aviar Driver was originally beadless, but is now made with a big bead. KC, JK, and Driver.

Dave, Could you please make a "squashed" BB Aviar that is shaped more like a KC Pro?

Dave, Could you please make a "squashed" BB Aviar that is shaped more like a KC Pro?



In DX plastic!! Im hurting for putters bad! :confused:

If you made a run of 500, id buy them all! :D

Dave, are you ever planing on bringing back BB DX aviars? I love the super stiff ones from the 90's.

Scott, you should try beating those Star Teebirds to a pulp. I thought the same thing at first but I kept throwing mine until it beat in. It now flies very similar to the 11X that I had.

MC


I also prefer the Champion Teebird compared to the Star. After recieving my star teebirds I waited out the winter and as soon as the weather got warmer i put them away for good. I honestly don't like the Teebird in Star and it's the least like a teebird than any other plastic.

My favorite teebirds are the 11x candy teebirds. The champion ones are less stable than these, but are still nice.
The DX is becoming my favorite teebird since they started running them in the newer DX. I only carrry the DX teebirds right now as I sold all my 11x's and don't have a use for the Stars. They are too overstable and they don't carry enough distance to be a long hyzer disc.

-Scott Lewis

There may be a new run for tourneys. I will let Dave tell more as Im not 100% sure what the specifics are with them. Im happy there are some around. Thanks Dave for listening to us dx BB Aviar putters!! :D

There may be a new run for tourneys. I will let Dave tell more as Im not 100% sure what the specifics are with them. Im happy there are some around. Thanks Dave for listening to us dx BB Aviar putters!! :D



Are they stiff like the old ones or are they in the new dx plastic?

There may be a new run for tourneys. I will let Dave tell more as Im not 100% sure what the specifics are with them. Im happy there are some around. Thanks Dave for listening to us dx BB Aviar putters!! :D



Are they stiff like the old ones or are they in the new dx plastic?



We will find out at work tomorrow.

Friysch: cool. I'll try beating one in a bit and see how it ends up. I have an awesome highlighter orange one that is super grippy.

Dave: I know that this might not happen for a while, but are you going to be producing the gremlin in any plastic in the original beaded mold? I did like the star gremlin, but it wasn't as overstable as the original proliners.

-Scott Lewis

Friysch: cool. I'll try beating one in a bit and see how it ends up. I have an awesome highlighter orange one that is super grippy.

Dave: I know that this might not happen for a while, but are you going to be producing the gremlin in any plastic in the original beaded mold? I did like the star gremlin, but it wasn't as overstable as the original proliners.

-Scott Lewis



Yes, but as usual, I don't know exactly when.

There may be a new run for tourneys. I will let Dave tell more as Im not 100% sure what the specifics are with them. Im happy there are some around. Thanks Dave for listening to us dx BB Aviar putters!! :D



Are they stiff like the old ones or are they in the new dx plastic?



We will find out at work tomorrow.



We checked out the ones we made. There are very few so far. Only about 1000. They are not super stiff, but considerably stiffer than putters. The heavies are all red. They are fairly grippy, with the red being the grippiest. The low seventies are white or red. The sixties are white. These are for custom HS tournaments.

Great news on the BBs!

I cant wait to try some out!!

Dave, Could you please make a "squashed" BB Aviar that is shaped more like a KC Pro?



In Star...

I was wondering if there are any new molds on the way from Innova? When are Condors going to be run again and is there any possibility of a star condor?

Yo Dave,

A broke in SB Orc is THE best utility driver I've ever thrown.

Well done!

I was wondering if there are any new molds on the way from Innova? When are Condors going to be run again and is there any possibility of a star condor?



One mold possibly on the way. Long mid range. In testing phase now.
Condors won't be run for a while. Star Condors are possible around max weight. (200g)

Any Possibilty that the viper will be produced in a pro star or champion plastic in large quantities?

Landon why would you want a Star Condor anyway?
All you'd do is throw it for a week then complain that it's too flippy. :D

Hey Dave ... gotta say, you did an excellent job for those Discmania guys. The MD1 is a really nice disc. The "D" plastic you used for these is really sweet. I really like it. The SG is grrrrriipppy. Very nice!

Thank you for the STAR LEOPARD (http://www.innovadiscs.com/discs/starleopard.html) , Innova !!!

This was my drive at Twin Park's Country Club (http://www.twinparkscountryclub.com/dgtemplate.htm) Parkhill #6 today !!! :D

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g75/albertlirette/TwinParksHill6.jpg

might want to give the rest of us some specs on that hole. For all we know it is a 75 foot hole which would make you have a really wet noodle arm. :) :D :p

Any Possibilty that the viper will be produced in a pro star or champion plastic in large quantities?



Not likely at this time. Small runs are always possible.

One mold possibly on the way. Long mid range. In testing phase now.




can i name this one please?? :Dsince i didn't get the last one :eek:

might want to give the rest of us some specs on that hole. For all we know it is a 75 foot hole which would make you have a really wet noodle arm. :) :D :p


If you click here (http://www.twinparkscountryclub.com/Park%20Hill%20Hole%206.htm) you can see a picture from the tee box and if you click scorecard (http://www.twinparkscountryclub.com/Park%20Hill%20Printable.htm) you can see the specs.

Is the Condor still in production?
Thanks for all you have done over the years and taking the time to answer in this forum.

One aspect of the Champion Whippets that I have rarely seen in any other disc from any manufacturer, is the difference in grip from the bottom to the top of the disc. Anyone who has held a champ whippet knows what I'm talking about, the top is slick champ but the bottom was molded with a feel like it has been sanded. I know "sure grip" from discraft and "DT" from gateway had been more trendy, but sometimes simple is better and I think a special repeat for whatever was done for the bottom of the whippet should be tried, maybe as a short run CFR, in a putter, mid, and driver.

Any chance of getting that again Dave?
Do you have any details on how and why that disc was done that way?

When was the Flying Fortress in production?
Is there a current disc with similar attributes?
Thanks

When was the Flying Fortress in production?
Is there a current disc with similar attributes?
Thanks


That was a Lightning disc, not Innova.

One aspect of the Champion Whippets that I have rarely seen in any other disc from any manufacturer, is the difference in grip from the bottom to the top of the disc. Anyone who has held a champ whippet knows what I'm talking about, the top is slick champ but the bottom was molded with a feel like it has been sanded. I know "sure grip" from discraft and "DT" from gateway had been more trendy, but sometimes simple is better and I think a special repeat for whatever was done for the bottom of the whippet should be tried, maybe as a short run CFR, in a putter, mid, and driver.

Any chance of getting that again Dave?
Do you have any details on how and why that disc was done that way?




Champ Whippets were the first and only run of the Whippet X, correct? My guess is that the run was a proto run of the new variation, and the new part of the mold was not polished yet. But I have seen a similiar texture on another proto disc, and agree that it can be very benificial to grip, and possibly to aerodynamics, as I keep hearing over and over that the rougher surfaces cause more glide.

Is the Condor still in production?
Thanks for all you have done over the years and taking the time to answer in this forum.



The Condor is only run for special editions golf and MTA.

One aspect of the Champion Whippets that I have rarely seen in any other disc from any manufacturer, is the difference in grip from the bottom to the top of the disc. Anyone who has held a champ whippet knows what I'm talking about, the top is slick champ but the bottom was molded with a feel like it has been sanded. I know "sure grip" from discraft and "DT" from gateway had been more trendy, but sometimes simple is better and I think a special repeat for whatever was done for the bottom of the whippet should be tried, maybe as a short run CFR, in a putter, mid, and driver.

Any chance of getting that again Dave?
Do you have any details on how and why that disc was done that way?



I don't remember the run, but I will try to look into it.

The Condor is only run for special editions golf and MTA.



would it be possible to make some glow MTA-weight Condors?

i am thinking they would be more stable and useful for days with very high winds :D

to encourage more DISCovery of the joy of MTA i am proposing that we settle all PDGA ties for first place next year with an MTA contest :eek: ;)

When was the Flying Fortress in production?
Is there a current disc with similar attributes?
Thanks


That was a Lightning disc, not Innova.



My bad. It has no patents #'s or name of the company on it.

When was the Flying Fortress in production?
Is there a current disc with similar attributes?
Thanks


That was a Lightning disc, not Innova.



My bad. It has no patents #'s or name of the company on it.


Closest Innova disc would be either the Jagaur or Condor. Flying Fortresss came out either '88 or '89.

[QUOTE]
would it be possible to make some glow MTA-weight Condors?

i am thinking they would be more stable and useful for days with very high winds :D
quote]

The Lynx mold was retooled into the Zephyr. The Condor is the only mold we have used for MTA in the last five years or so. We can use a particular plastic which can shape up and fly very much like the Lynx's. As for glow: if we add glow to the plastic, it will also add significant weight, which is not a good thing for an already fairly beefy MTA disc. The lightest Condors are about 137 gms., I believe.

Small lightning diversion. Your normally scheduled Innova discussion will continue momentarily :D

When was the Flying Fortress in production?
Is there a current disc with similar attributes?
Thanks


This disc was re-tooled (by Lightning) and became the #2 Roller. I believe these are still available. More information might be available here discgolfsweden.se (english) (http://www.discgolfsweden.se/discar/discar_english.aspx)

You will now be returned to your regularly scheduled broadcast.
Thank you.

One mold possibly on the way. Long mid range. In testing phase now.




can i name this one please?? :Dsince i didn't get the last one :eek:



i guess not huh? ;)
since you skipped rightover this "ask dave" question :D

One mold possibly on the way. Long mid range. In testing phase now.




can i name this one please?? :Dsince i didn't get the last one :eek:



i guess not huh? ;)
since you skipped rightover this "ask dave" question :D



Sorry Keith, it already has a name.

Dave, I bought a MAX and there is no weight on the disc...

Only the word "MAX"... Does simply mean it is a max weight or did someone forget to write the weight on the disc?

Sr.

Anyone tried the star Skeeter? Does it fly like a beat in roc or so?

All MAX's are Max weight.

wrong

i have seen max's in the low 170s

One mold possibly on the way. Long mid range. In testing phase now.




can i name this one please?? :Dsince i didn't get the last one :eek:



i guess not huh? ;)
since you skipped rightover this "ask dave" question :D



Sorry Keith, it already has a name.



that's ok dave...i'll just not worry about it and then you can surprise me one day in about 10 years when there are no names left and you'll have to use mine :D

One mold possibly on the way. Long mid range. In testing phase now.




can i name this one please?? :Dsince i didn't get the last one :eek:



i guess not huh? ;)
since you skipped rightover this "ask dave" question :D



Sorry Keith, it already has a name.



that's ok dave...i'll just not worry about it and then you can surprise me one day in about 10 years when there are no names left and you'll have to use mine :D



that will be the day!! :D

I havent they all say MAX on the bottom, so the logical conclusion on my part is they are all MAX weight!

wrong

i have seen max's in the low 170s



Correct. I have Max's between 172-175 grams. A gram or two doesn't make any difference in that Disc.

They still all feel like Max weight though and they all are Monster/FireBird stable.

10 day forecast says it is going to be Sunny on Saturday...

Time to Pre-register at http://www.discgolfclub.org

MPPP is this Saturday in Springfield, IL

Can you Putt? Win Cash...

Think Innova makes the Best Putter... Come Prove It on DiscGolfTV.com

Dave, I bought a MAX and there is no weight on the disc...

Only the word "MAX"... Does simply mean it is a max weight or did someone forget to write the weight on the disc?

Sr.



Although there are a few that are not max weight, those will be marked as weighed. All the rest are considered max weight and aren't marked. Next run, we will probably mark 175 to avoid confusion.

Dave,
My bag is literally falling apart as I have been waiting 6 months for this bag to come out. I know you said ZD was handling it, but maybe it's time for you to get involved as many people are anxiously awaiting this bag and its delay has become almost comical. Could you please update us on the progress and give us a projected release date and price? Thanks.



I believe the comedy is over. The Champion Bags are being released this Thursday.............I hope :confused:

Thanks Dave.............price?

Dave,
What should Kevin and Courtney name (http://www.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=645383&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1#Post645451) their baby?

Thanks Dave.............price?



MSRP $89.99

Dave,
What should Kevin and Courtney name (http://www.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=645383&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1#Post645451) their baby?



Real

Dave,
What should Kevin and Courtney name (http://www.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=645383&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1#Post645451) their baby?



Real



That is the best suggestion ever!! They have no option now! :D

Hey Dave, I will be in your area sometime this summer, is there like a tour of the factory that a disc golfer can go on?

Hey Dave, I will be in your area sometime this summer, is there like a tour of the factory that a disc golfer can go on?



No, sorry, there are no tours.

Dave,
My bag is literally falling apart as I have been waiting 6 months for this bag to come out. I know you said ZD was handling it, but maybe it's time for you to get involved as many people are anxiously awaiting this bag and its delay has become almost comical. Could you please update us on the progress and give us a projected release date and price? Thanks.



I believe the comedy is over. The Champion Bags are being released this Thursday.............I hope :confused:


Thanks (http://discgolfvalues.com/store/view_product.php?product=CH_Bag) Dave!

Dave, what's the word on a DX Starfire-X??? Please...

Dave, what's the word on a DX Starfire-X??? Please...



It's on the schedule, but it's been delayed due to production constraints. Probably later this year.

Dave
In a word or two how would you describe the plastic used in the first run of the Super Roc in Jan 1999? It is flexible and makes that 'pookah' sound if you flex the flight plate. I'm beginning to catalogue my 20 + year collection and need short descriptions.
Would you PM me with a direct email to you so I can compile a concise list w/ pictures of some of the stuff I need to ID. Something you would not have to respond to as quickly as you do here.
Thanks

Dave, what's the word on a DX Starfire-X??? Please...



It's on the schedule, but it's been delayed due to production constraints. Probably later this year.



Thanks Dave. I can't wait for this disc. I love the Starfire-X, it's like a longer Teebird which is great. Except I don't like Champion plastic, and the Star version is super overstable. DX would be friggin' great.

Hey Dave, I will be in your area sometime this summer, is there like a tour of the factory that a disc golfer can go on?



No, sorry, there are no tours.


Maybe someday there will be golden tickets in retail packages of Innova discs that afford the bearer a tour of the factory. I hear they have Oompa-Loompas working the injection mold machines!

Hi Dave!
Since it's official, do you think you could test some star or champ rams for the 2008 worlds? :D

Hey Dave, I will be in your area sometime this summer, is there like a tour of the factory that a disc golfer can go on?



No, sorry, there are no tours.


Maybe someday there will be golden tickets in retail packages of Innova discs that afford the bearer a tour of the factory. I hear they have Oompa-Loompas working the injection mold machines!

named Wisecup and Heilman

I'm tellin Cup you called him a oompa!

Whats a oompa? ;)

Go ahead, he should get a kick out of iTT.

Dave,

When was the Pro Line Rhyno in production, compared to the Pro Rhyno? And what is the difference?
Thanks

Hi Dave!
Since it's official, do you think you could test some star or champ rams for the 2008 worlds? :D



Possible, but I think a more mainstream disc would raise more money. Ram Xs or regulars? :D

Dave,

Thank you for running some dx BB aviars. I recieved a few last night. they feel great in the hand. I only had a chance to throw a few putts, but they flew just like expected. Keep em' coming!!! :D

Cary

Dave,

When was the Pro Line Rhyno in production, compared to the Pro Rhyno? And what is the difference?
Thanks



The only difference was the hot stamp. The word "line" was not supposed to be on the stamp. The Pro Line stamp came first and was replaced by the Pro stamp.

Dave,

Thank you for running some dx BB aviars. I recieved a few last night. they feel great in the hand. I only had a chance to throw a few putts, but they flew just like expected. Keep em' coming!!! :D

Cary



Dave, where do we get these? Is there any chance these will ever be standard production?

Dave,

Thank you for running some dx BB aviars. I recieved a few last night. they feel great in the hand. I only had a chance to throw a few putts, but they flew just like expected. Keep em' coming!!! :D

Cary



Dave, where do we get these?



They are available for custom hotstamping. Ask you fav. TD to order them. We should have some for GCC in a few weeks. I dont know if any have been sent to TDs. I was lucky to get mine!

Hi Dave!
Since it's official, do you think you could test some star or champ rams for the 2008 worlds? :D



Possible, but I think a more mainstream disc would raise more money. Ram Xs or regulars? :D



No, no...those would be the coveted Trophy Discs! :)
Most people that I run into have never heard about it, so its a new, mainstream product for them and us old schoolers will get a classic back! ;)
Anyway, I've got to find some more since the snow in The Zoo is cresting a foot! :p

I have been noticing the dwindling supplies of KC whippets and was wondering if they had been discontinued. If so I need to go get the last 2 that I know where they are at before I have to spend $40 on Ebay for one.

I believe earlier Dave did mention that they stopped making them. Just Rocs and Aviars in the KC plastic now. Correct me if I'm wrong Dave....

I have been noticing the dwindling supplies of KC whippets and was wondering if they had been discontinued. If so I need to go get the last 2 that I know where they are at before I have to spend $40 on Ebay for one.



There are still plenty in stock. Before you go to ebay for any disc, you probably should try mark at discgolfvalues as he tends to specialized in older or discontinued discs. If he doesn't have them, he can probably tell you where to get them.

I have been noticing the dwindling supplies of KC whippets and was wondering if they had been discontinued. If so I need to go get the last 2 that I know where they are at before I have to spend $40 on Ebay for one.



I've got a lead on tons of them in Grand Rapids. PM me for some info.

Not an Innova question but since you were in the area I thought you may have participated or knew folks related to THIS (http://www.geocities.com/foshildgc/BeachBowl.JPG) lid. There is something under the disc and I wonder if it is a mini or maybe a program/entry? Hotstamp artwork is 1986.
The cool little stamp in the cardboard says
"Whizbo Football Championships . Freestyle" with a wave breaking and kelp with a bug nosed sun character in middle. It was " The Official Disc of the Beach Bowl Flying Disc Championships" about 11" in diameter.

I did just email OP to see if anyone there knew.

Thanks for the response I went ahead and picked up the two that are here locally and may pick up a few more in the next couple of months.

The reason for my obsesion with this disc is I can't find another disc that has as many uses for me as this one. I use it for overhand, fairways with left finish, skip shots, hyzers when I end up behind trees, wind drivers on holes too short for my Monster, and even kind of as an overstable midrange that way I don't have to carry one. And from the uses listed above I would probably have to change the DX one quite often. But now that my first question has been answered that leads me to two more questions and I promise that I will try to not ask any more about the Whippet.

First I know you said earlier that there was a possibility of a Star Whippet so is there any updated info on that? Second if that is not in the works is there another disc out that can fill the use of the whippet in a premium plastic.

Not an Innova question but since you were in the area I thought you may have participated or knew folks related to THIS (http://www.geocities.com/foshildgc/BeachBowl.JPG) lid. There is something under the disc and I wonder if it is a mini or maybe a program/entry? Hotstamp artwork is 1986.
The cool little stamp in the cardboard says
"Whizbo Football Championships . Freestyle" with a wave breaking and kelp with a bug nosed sun character in middle. It was " The Official Disc of the Beach Bowl Flying Disc Championships" about 11" in diameter.

I did just email OP to see if anyone there knew.



What did you want to know? I did play Whizbo at Huntington Beach. The disc was like a freestyle/ultimate disc made by Jan Sobel of Destiny discs.

I'm curious what is under the disc? A mini? A entryform/booklet? It has some mass, not a piece of paper or 1/16 inch high something but something that makes a thunk if shaken/ turned over ....
I don't want to tear it open [ruin the packaging] to find out ..... yeah I'm that way. Kind of a funky time capsule kind of thing...
Thanks for so much ...........

I'm curious what is under the disc? A mini? A entryform/booklet? It has some mass, not a piece of paper or 1/16 inch high something but something that makes a thunk if shaken/ turned over ....
I don't want to tear it open [ruin the packaging] to find out ..... yeah I'm that way. Kind of a funky time capsule kind of thing...
Thanks for so much ...........



Sorry, I never saw one in a package.

Dave, do you know if you still have any 11x kc aviars in stock?

Dave,
Did you stop making champion cobras? KL

Dave, do you know if you still have any 11x kc aviars in stock?



No, we don't. Carolina or discgolfvalues may still have them.

Dave,
Did you stop making champion cobras? KL



Yes, we might do some Star in the future. We did a test run that worked well.

Not so much a question but I just wanted to let you know we recently had an Ice bowl in Portland, OR. Avery, Dave, and Chris drove up and played. I cannot imagine three better ambassadors for the sport. They mixed the groups first round giving people a chance to play with the pros, all these guys answered a barrage of questions; from shot tips to tour experiences. Chris even worked with me for 30 minutes on my putting 50' and out. I admire the character of your team members as much as their skill on the course. Thanks-

Dave,
Did you stop making champion cobras? KL



Yes, we might do some Star in the future. We did a test run that worked well.



Thanks, Dave. I better stock up until then. KL

Hi Dave,
I just got some of the new MD-1s from Mark M. They look kind of like Rocs, but I'm not sure when I'll get to throw one. It's zero degrees here in Indiana with a snow storm coming.
Can you please tell us a little about the design. I think the nose is a little different than most Rocs.
Thanks,
Axis

Hi Dave,
I just got some of the new MD-1s from Mark M. They look kind of like Rocs, but I'm not sure when I'll get to throw one. It's zero degrees here in Indiana with a snow storm coming.
Can you please tell us a little about the design. I think the nose is a little different than most Rocs.
Thanks,
Axis



The structure is more like a Shark than a Roc. It flies more like a Roc, than a Shark. It basically has the stability of a Roc with the carry of a Shark.

...It basically has the stability of a Roc with the carry of a Shark.


drooooooooool... :p


sleepy

Hi Dave,
I just got some of the new MD-1s from Mark M. They look kind of like Rocs, but I'm not sure when I'll get to throw one. It's zero degrees here in Indiana with a snow storm coming.
Can you please tell us a little about the design. I think the nose is a little different than most Rocs.
Thanks,
Axis



The structure is more like a Shark than a Roc. It flies more like a Roc, than a Shark. It basically has the stability of a Roc with the carry of a Shark.



This disc sounds very interesting. Anyway to post pics of it? Also, is the rim thick and deep like a Gator or Spider or thin like the Shark and Roc? I simply cannot throw thin rim midranges due to my long fingers.

I have long fingers as well, but i prefer smaller rimmed midranges.. I throw tons of Stingrays and buzzzes and I feel that I get a better release that way. It's all about how it feels in your hands though. Good thing the great people at the disc golf companies make so many different discs to fit all different feels and styles!!

-Scott Lewis

The rim of the MD1 is like a shark.

Hey Dave I bought a First Run Skeeter DX style and loved it. It fit perfectly for me in between a Gator and Panter, but I was wondering how the Star's will fly compared to the DX plastic??

Hey Dave I bought a First Run Skeeter DX style and loved it. It fit perfectly for me in between a Gator and Panter, but I was wondering how the Star's will fly compared to the DX plastic??



I think the Star is slightly less stable new, but maintains its flight characteristic longer.

Dave, just curious if there was a schedule of disc to be run in run in Pro plastic. Coyotes, TeeRexs, Maxs, Rocs would all be rad in pro line.

Dave, I just wanted to thank you for the Star Gator. This disc is SICK!!! I think it is shorter Whippet. It also does not appear to be changing with age. Just out....gliiiiiiiiiiddddeeeee.....turn left, SKIP!!!!

Left turn Clyde!!!! Thanks Dave.

Is there such a thing as a Star X Out? Or are you just regrinding the plastic and reusing it?

Oh look, Star X-outs (http://discgolfvalues.com/store/index.php?cat_id=7) :eek:

Hello Dave

I was curious, were pro starfires made in any other version than the star sl, or were they made in the other starfire mold? ( the more overstable one)
thanks
dav

Oh look, Star X-outs (http://discgolfvalues.com/store/index.php?cat_id=7) :eek:



Sweet!!!

Ask and ye shall receive brothers...

Hello Dave

I was curious, were pro starfires made in any other version than the star sl, or were they made in the other starfire mold? ( the more overstable one)
thanks
dav



There are champion SLs as well. Also they have the more stable starfires (x mold) in star, champion, and soon to be dx plastic.

Hello Dave

I was curious, were pro starfires made in any other version than the star sl, or were they made in the other starfire mold? ( the more overstable one)
thanks
dav



There are champion SLs as well. Also they have the more stable starfires (x mold) in star, champion, and soon to be dx plastic.



Yeah that is cool but what version of the starfire was made in pro plastic. thanks JRauch

Hello Dave

I was curious, were pro starfires made in any other version than the star sl, or were they made in the other starfire mold? ( the more overstable one)
thanks
dav



There are champion SLs as well. Also they have the more stable starfires (x mold) in star, champion, and soon to be dx plastic.



Yeah that is cool but what version of the starfire was made in pro plastic. thanks JRauch



Oh.. Just the SL the less stable version of the Starfire. They came out with this model first so they just named it the starfire, then the Starfire X came out (never in the Pro plastic though) and they renamed the original the Starfire L or the SL (they just never changed the hotstamp on the Pro Starfires).

thanks very mucho...re-reading my question, it was kinda, well, not worded right.

Hello Dave

I was curious, were pro starfires made in any other version than the star sl, or were they made in the other starfire mold? ( the more overstable one)
thanks
dav



There are champion SLs as well. Also they have the more stable starfires (x mold) in star, champion, and soon to be dx plastic.



Yeah that is cool but what version of the starfire was made in pro plastic. thanks JRauch



Oh.. Just the SL the less stable version of the Starfire. They came out with this model first so they just named it the starfire, then the Starfire X came out (never in the Pro plastic though) and they renamed the original the Starfire L or the SL (they just never changed the hotstamp on the Pro Starfires).


I thought the original Starfires that were available in the CFR program were not 'Ls'...(?)

Dave, just curious if there was a schedule of disc to be run in run in Pro plastic. Coyotes, TeeRexs, Maxs, Rocs would all be rad in pro line.



The only discs scheduled to be run in Pro driver plastic are Starfires and Wraiths.

Hello Dave

I was curious, were pro starfires made in any other version than the star sl, or were they made in the other starfire mold? ( the more overstable one)
thanks
dav



Pro Starfires are L only.

DLux-
The first starfires that came in the CFR program back in 2003(?) were the "L" mold. Then the pro version, then the CFR "X&L" versions, then champion of both, then star of both. Whoa.

I thought the very, very first CFR Starfires were a mold that they didn't really like, but was more similar to the L. They tweaked that mold to make the L, and later made the X. Correct me if I'm wrong, Dave, but this has been discussed before and I think I'm remembering correctly.

I thought the very, very first CFR Starfires were a mold that they didn't really like, but was more similar to the L. They tweaked that mold to make the L, and later made the X. Correct me if I'm wrong, Dave, but this has been discussed before and I think I'm remembering correctly.



Yes, this is correct.

Hey Dave, at my local shop I found a Pro FB..

how many of these did you make?

I thought they were all FL mold in the pro plastic... it's definitely a FB mold too, it's got the concave rim and all.

is this just a weirdo disc? :D

Speaking of the FB.... Zonedriven Pro FB (http://zonedriven.com/proshop/index.php?p=product&amp;id=282&amp;parent=88) <font color="blue"> </font>

Hey Dave, at my local shop I found a Pro FB..

how many of these did you make?

I thought they were all FL mold in the pro plastic... it's definitely a FB mold too, it's got the concave rim and all.

is this just a weirdo disc? :D



If it is the regular X mold, it is either a mistake or a very old one.

Hey Dave ~

I see Innova no longer stocks the Bulldog, and upon further research, I see its "functional replacement" is the Hydra. I've found the Hydra's DX plastic to be much slicker than the Bulldog, and slightly less stable (havent thrown the Hydra enough though..)

Any chance we could see the Bulldog in JK Pro (aka soft Rhyno) or Star plastic? Don't necessarily need a floater, just a beefy overstable disc that's either softer or less slick.

- doot

Hey Dave ~

I see Innova no longer stocks the Bulldog, and upon further research, I see its "functional replacement" is the Hydra. I've found the Hydra's DX plastic to be much slicker than the Bulldog, and slightly less stable (havent thrown the Hydra enough though..)

Any chance we could see the Bulldog in JK Pro (aka soft Rhyno) or Star plastic? Don't necessarily need a floater, just a beefy overstable disc that's either softer or less slick.

- doot


Star, Champion, or Pro are not options, but grippier/softer is. Only DX plastic can be used in either the Bulldog or Hydra, but we can make it grippier.

Dave, how are the DX BBs working out?

Thanks for responding Dave..

Anxiously looking forward to seeing grippier DX Bulldogs/Hydras/Hydradogs/Bullhydras in the future..Thanks for considering it!!

Regards,

Frederick Doot

Dave, how are the DX BBs working out?



They're in the custom hot stamping program. But, I don't know how they are being recieved yet. I haven't heard many reviews yet.

Hi Dave. Is this: the new Innova bag? (http://discgolfvalues.com/store/view_product.php?product=CH_Bag)

looks good. have you tried them yet, and -- if so -- how do you like them?

Hi Dave. Is this: the new Innova bag? (http://discgolfvalues.com/store/view_product.php?product=CH_Bag)

looks good. have you tried them yet, and -- if so -- how do you like them?



Yes, it's the new Champion bag. I have tried it briefly. It's not my cup of tea, but neither is the Tour bag. Both are too heavy and too big for me. I only carry up to 15 discs, so I prefer something smaller.

Hi Dave!

Can you give us any updates of the 2007 <font color="pink">U </font> <font color="orange"> S </font> <font color="red"> D </font> <font color="purple"> G </font> <font color="blue"> C <font color="brown"> </font> ROC's? </font>

Have any ideas of the stamps? :)
Thanks!!

Ok heres a new one for Dave.

Two things.

Does the frame out of the new bag fit into a tour bag or deluxe bag or both?
Second, is the frame available separate?

Hi Dave!

Can you give us any updates of the 2007 <font color="pink">U </font> <font color="orange"> S </font> <font color="red"> D </font> <font color="purple"> G </font> <font color="blue"> C <font color="brown"> </font> ROC's? </font>

Have any ideas of the stamps? :)
Thanks!!



They are still working on the stamps on the east coast. We have done the run of Cucamongas. Mainly Star in different colors. Some Champion. We might add some Ontario Champion if we have time.

Ok heres a new one for Dave.

Two things.

Does the frame out of the new bag fit into a tour bag or deluxe bag or both?
Second, is the frame available separate?



No, the frame is too big for the Tour bag or deluxe. I don't think it is available separately, at this time.

Oh Dave... please find time to run some champion Ontario's!!! They would go over well I'm sure.

Hey Dave,
two more questions, first about Starfire, DX will be out soon I read somewhere on this thread, will it be SL or S (SX)?

I saw that the FL was approved during january. Is the Star FL a modified FL-mold?

Dave, do you know when Innova East will be getting DX BB's for custom stamping?

Also, I second the vote for Ontarios. DX would be nice.

Hey Dave,
two more questions, first about Starfire, DX will be out soon I read somewhere on this thread, will it be SL or S (SX)?

I saw that the FL was approved during january. Is the Star FL a modified FL-mold?



The DX Starfire, will be the regular mold. The Star FL is the normal FL mold.

Dave, do you know when Innova East will be getting DX BB's for custom stamping?

Also, I second the vote for Ontarios. DX would be nice.



The East coast will be getting a couple of boxes soon. We will be running more fairly soon too.

Congratulations to the January Winners:
DISCatcher� Traveler Target - Scott S - Palisade, CO
DISCatcher� Mini Target - Matt O - Clawson, MI
<font color="red"> INNOVA Merchandise Pack - Erron S - Corpus Christi, TX </font>
2007 USDGC Partners Pack - Gerald S - Lasselberry, FL
3-Pack Newly Released Discs - Wes A - Kennesaw, GA
3-Disc INNOVA Training Set - Paul T - San Antonio, TX
Innova T-Shirt - Bill - Santa Clara, CA
Champions DVD - Taj - Davis, CA
INNOVA Knit Cap - Nadine M - Fall River, WI
USDGC DVD - Rob B - Rocylin, CA

Thanks Dave D. & INNOVA!!!

The DX Starfire, will be the regular mold. The Star FL is the normal FL mold.



"regular mold" means SX? or SL?

The DX Starfire, will be the regular mold. The Star FL is the normal FL mold.



"regular mold" means SX? or SL?



Regular Starfire is X type.

why do star rocs cost so much and will the price go down

Because it's a fundraiser, and fundraisers are designed to raise funds, so therefore they are more expensive than regular discs. There's no way they'll mainstream the sales, because of all the money they bring in for the USDGC and EDGE.

Besides, $25 isn't really that much...

those rocs are well worth the price

why do star rocs cost so much and will the price go down


I think the bottom line is: Champ/Star Rocs really do last forever. If you are buying one to throw either buy an x-out (http://www.zonedriven.com/proshop/index.php?p=catalog&amp;parent=84&amp;pg=1) for $18.99 (most are NOT mold defects, but hotstamp defects) or buy a slightly used one. If you are planning on hanging it on a wall or collecting, then your $25 is a worthy investment. As long as you don't throw it, it can't go DOWN in value

is innova going to make a champion teerex or a pro teerex and whats the diffrence between ce and se

IS INNOVA GOING TO MAKE CHAMPION TEEREX OR PRO TEEREX AND WHATS THE DIFFRENCE BETWEEN CE AND SE PLASTIC



Dave said he would most likely make a champion Teerex and probably not a pro one. CE is the first champion plastic that came out. It was very durable and they stopped making it. SE is special edition. It is sorta like old school pro plastic (before they called it pro) but it was more grippy and more durable.

IS INNOVA GOING TO MAKE CHAMPION TEEREX OR PRO TEEREX AND WHATS THE DIFFRENCE BETWEEN CE AND SE PLASTIC


http://ayola.com/archives/capslock.jpg

heres a Champion Teerex-X, &amp; i remember a few proto champion Teerex's being made but not many...

http://discgolfvalues.com/store/images/TRXXsmk.jpg

they have these at discgolfvalues.com (http://discgolfvalues.com/store/view_product.php?product=CE_TRX)

heres a Champion Teerex-X, & i remember a few proto champion Teerex's being made but not many...



However, the TRX discs being sold at discgolfvalues.com are not any more overstable than regular TeeRexes. These are more like Wraiths IMO. (I've got two)

yea everyone is calling them Wraith-X's, and Disc golf values have them for $15 or $16, or Mark also sales the neater looking "ICE" versions as seen above for $20 to almost $40 on ebay. I love the TRX. It will flatten out for me at high speed before a long glide that has incredible fade. These also seem to skip more and farther then a regular Champion Wraith. Definitely a disc to try at the higher flight speeds, but the only draw back is if, when, and how many will ever be made again.

I think your talking about the wraith-X that has TRX on the bottom. These are TeeRex-X and should be different.

Any word yet on the possibility of the Star Whippets ?

Mark is selling Wraith X's and Tee Rex X's....Both have TRX on the bottom cause they are test runs of the remolding for the Tee Rex.
I have thrown both and the Teerex X definitely is more high and low speed overstable than the regular. The Wraith X is right between the Wraith and Teerex in stability.
The Tee Rex X was also made in Star and Champion plastic.

I dont think there were immediate plans to put the Champion version into regular production, just as fundraisers.

As for the difference between CE and SE
CE is like stiffer more durable Champion plastic
SE is very close to Pro plastic...almost like Star

I think its the Q line of Millenium plastic thats very similar to CE. Can't remember off hand exactly since I dont normally get ahold of Millenium stock.

hi dave i was wondering if you will make a pro dx or champion max

Any word yet on the possibility of the Star Whippets ?



http://img115.imageshack.us/img115/4213/innovastarwhippetgt1.jpg

:o

hi dave i was wondering if you will make a pro dx or champion max



Champion is probable at some point. DX is possible, but not easy in that mold. Pro is not going to happen.

Any word yet on the possibility of the Star Whippets ?



Always possible Donny. Don't know if or when yet.

Cool! I just ordered a couple of those TeeRex-Xs that are promised to be MORE overstable than TeeRexes. thanks!

Dave,

How would a whippet compare to a firebird (or vice versa) when thrown into a headwind?

Dave,

How would a whippet compare to a firebird (or vice versa) when thrown into a headwind?



A regular Whippet will have a similar stability, but not penetrate as far into the wind. A Whippet X will be more overstable than either, with a similar speed to the regular Whippet.

Don't try a whippet if you do you will want one, and they will haunt your dreams, and then you will come to a hole and be like is this a good spot for my whippet and then you will be like but if I use it here I am one throw closer to retiring that one. And you will be like is this shot "whippet worthy" (Seinfeld reference). Now excuse me while I go rock quitely in my room with all of my whippets laid out in front of me.

Dave,

Even though it may have come up before, can you tell what effect weather/temperature has on disc plastics. I know UV will make plastic degrade sooner, but is very cold weather bad ? By cold, I mean Minnesota-cold. Sub-freezing for weeks or months at a stretch and even many days below zero. When discs are that cold they definitely feel like different material, but is any change that occurs temporary? Does it matter if they sit outside in the cold ?

Also, how does cold weather affect flight characteristics? It's difficult to know if the disc is flying differently or my motion is different since, with all these layers of clothes, I feel like I'm throwing while giving a four-year old a piggy-back ride.

Thanks

Dave,

Even though it may have come up before, can you tell what effect weather/temperature has on disc plastics. I know UV will make plastic degrade sooner, but is very cold weather bad ? By cold, I mean Minnesota-cold. Sub-freezing for weeks or months at a stretch and even many days below zero. When discs are that cold they definitely feel like different material, but is any change that occurs temporary? Does it matter if they sit outside in the cold ?

Also, how does cold weather affect flight characteristics? It's difficult to know if the disc is flying differently or my motion is different since, with all these layers of clothes, I feel like I'm throwing while giving a four-year old a piggy-back ride.

Thanks



Cold weather won't hurt the plastic unless it's frozen solid. Then, there is the potential of cracking. Unlikely with Champion or Star. As for the characteristic, I have been told that cold discs are more stable than warm, but speed does affect the characteristic. Hard to throw fast when it's cold. So...I don't know for sure, but it seems as if cold discs are more stable.

dave r u planing 2 make pro stingrays

dave r u planing 2 make pro stingrays



No, just DX and Star

Dave, will you ever do a run of anything besides wraiths and starfires in Pro plastic again? This is my favorite plastic and some of the molds I throw are getting harder and harder to come by.

are u still going 2 make overstable mold beasts and barry beasts

Dave, will you ever do a run of anything besides wraiths and starfires in Pro plastic again? This is my favorite plastic and some of the molds I throw are getting harder and harder to come by.



No, not unless we can find a new source of plastic.

are u still going 2 make overstable mold beasts and barry beasts



No, the Orc occupies that niche now.

will the max come in diffrent plastics?

will the max come in diffrent plastics?



Champion probably, DX possible, but unlikely as DX tends not to work well in long range drivers.

is it true that the teebird is not going to be made any more

Make it stop...

Make it stop...



.... it's kind of like pre-war motorcycles with "suicide throttles". Once they're turned on, turning 'em off can be problematic. ;) /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif :D

So Dave,

What are the top 10 selling discs from Innova this year so far?

Oh and btw the Tee Rex X is a awsome disc.
I took 1st in the last of the Ice Bowl series up at Idlewild this weekend in my division. And I have to say the Tee-Rex X played a huge part. Thanks again.
Drew

in the interest of keeping it simple: please post your Ask Dave D about Innova questions on the > new Ask Dave D thread here (http://www.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=650595&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1)

So Dave,

What are the top 10 selling discs from Innova this year so far?




Sorry, I have no clue yet. Probably the Aviar P&amp;A is one of them.

Which Orcs are the stable ones??

Which Orcs are the stable ones??



They're all more stable than Beasts, if that's the reference. Otherwise, the most stable Orcs have generally been the SB or Star. Of those, I think the blue might be the most stable, but I am not sure.

dave is it true the teebird is being discontinued

Jacob Loper: proof that there should be an age requirement for message board posting. :mad:

dave is it true the teebird is being discontinued



Where did you ever hear that?

Which Orcs are the stable ones??



They're all more stable than Beasts, if that's the reference. Otherwise, the most stable Orcs have generally been the SB or Star. Of those, I think the blue might be the most stable, but I am not sure.


Glad to see I'm not alone in thinking this! My maxweight Blue SB Orc has been in my bag for months with heavy use and it flies straight with fade every time. The disc does not turn at all, even when I put on extra mustard

dave is it true the teebird is being discontinued



Where did you ever hear that?

The T-Bird and the Aviar! Buy them while you can! :D

that is the most ridiculous thing i have ever heard. why would innova do such a thing.

And the Roc!

That's weird because I have a blue Tulsa SB orc (175g) that flips over for me... I use it as my max D hyzer flip disc.

I have some original run Champion Orcs that are the straightest for me. (the 175 DayGlo ones)

That's weird because I have a blue Tulsa SB orc (175g) that flips over for me... I use it as my max D hyzer flip disc.

I have some original run Champion Orcs that are the straightest for me. (the 175 DayGlo ones)


I know it shouldn't probably make a difference but the one that was stable for me has a 3rd? run stamp with only the small bird on top (quetzal?). My first blue SB orc with the first run stamp that looked like the Pro Orc stamp I actually lost because it flipped over deep into some wooded area (it was significantly lighter though)

should we start using the new thread?

should we start using the new thread?



Please use the new thread! It will be easier on everybody and there is already a precedent of starting a new thread every few years because this is the most frequented thread in disc golf and some of us have dial-up ;)


please click here and go to the new "Ask Dave D about Innova" thread! (http://www.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=650595&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1)

Hey Dave what's your take on the new molded Ontario Roc's for fundraising? Flight and take on the mold?
Thx,
RT

please use the new thread, thanks

Hey Dave what's your take on the new molded Ontario Roc's for fundraising? Flight and take on the mold?
Thx,
RT



The new Ontario USDGC Rocs are candy colored. There are relatively few of them. Probably around 500 total in various colors. Mostly at 180 g. These are stiff and grippy. They are high speed stable yet not too overstable at low speeds. They fly more like a big bead, than a Rancho. I like them better than any other USDGC Roc. Good news is that there are about 100 X outs for throwing fans.

Good news is that there are about 100 X outs for throwing fans.



any idea as to when these would become available?

Good news is that there are about 100 X outs for throwing fans.



any idea as to when these would become available?



March, I believe.

is it true that the teebird is not going to be made any more


The Teebird is done with....I would also like to add a reputable Colombian Druglord recently announced the "discontinuation of Cocaine in rock form, aka Crack". The druglord continued "Crack has preyed disproportionally on the poor and minoritie communities, and this was never intended". Efforts by the major cartels will now focus on newer, more expensive cocaine analogs targeting more "white collar users".

What no more CRACK, NOOOOOOOOOOOO!!

I saw the Star Kite released as a fundraiser, is it coming in the regular Star-line-up also?

I saw the Star Kite released as a fundraiser, is it coming in the regular Star-line-up also?



Yes, eventually.

Kite??????

Just approved. Tentative flight numbers are 5,5,-3,1. 175 gm max. DX and Star. DX will be for general release. Star for tournaments and fundraising for now.

Dave, is it a small, or large (Cobra/Stingray) diameter?

"Kites are raptors with long wings and weak legs which spend a great deal of time soaring. In general they will take live prey but mostly feed on carrion."
Is this the meaning of kite that you had in mind when choosing the name, or were you referring to the flying object that made Ben Franklin famous? Is this disc intended to fill the small hole between Stingray and Cobra? What do the initial flight tests look like?

I assume 175g max would put it at small diameter.

Dave, is it a small, or large (Cobra/Stingray) diameter?



Cobra/Stingray are 21.7cm. Kite is 21.2cm.

"Kites are raptors with long wings and weak legs which spend a great deal of time soaring. In general they will take live prey but mostly feed on carrion."
Is this the meaning of kite that you had in mind when choosing the name, or were you referring to the flying object that made Ben Franklin famous? Is this disc intended to fill the small hole between Stingray and Cobra? What do the initial flight tests look like?



Yes to both kite references, especially the soaring gliding part. It feeds on birdies, dead or alive.

It does fit between a Cobra and Stingray, but is a smaller, quicker disc. My impression was of a San Mario Cobra high speed turn and a Stingray or better low fade finish. Just about the same carry with a little more speed and range.
The high speed turn depends on speed and throwing style. Like many other discs, nose down throws will turn much more easily than nose up. Therefore, experienced players will be able to turn the Kite much more easily than beginners.