Champion Stingrays started this morning and appear to be working, at least as far as molding is concerned. Next step, is checking flight characteristic, then adjusting as necessary if possible.

WOOOOOHOOOOO! FINALLY!!!!!!!!!!!
thankyouthankyouthankyouthankyou!

Champion Stingrays!?!
Awesome. :cool:

Dave, I sure hope the CE Stingrays are going to be U.S. Masters exclusive.

Discgraham: please please PLEASE PLEASE edit your post and put some freaking spaces in your typing so that you don't screw up the message board display for everybody else. thanks.

Amen to that!

Champion Stingrays?

The Stingray is the PERFECT slow glide turn over disc. That's great news!

<font color="blue"> Yeah baby, I am rolling up my dimes and quarters as we speak! :D </font>

Dave, will they exclusively be a fundraiser disc?

jdlush, we are discussing the possibility of the Champion Stingray being an exclusive fundraiser for the US Masters, but it doesn't make sense in terms of distribution of what could be a mainstream disc. It probably won't be a fundraiser at all, exclusive or not.

Thanks Dave. I think it would be a mainstream disc as well. Almost everyone that I know has at least one Stingray in their bag and would love one in Champion plastic.

Dave, by that logic you best release the CE Roc into general disrtibution as a "mainstream disc". :)

Rhett, the logic holds as the Roc has never been a mainstream disc as much as it has been a pro disc. The Shark is our mainstream equivalent of the Roc. The Stingray has always been a mainstream disc, and like the Aviar has also been popular with pros too.

Dave I can't remember if I have asked you this question before so I appologize if this is a reapeat.
Two years ago Terry Calhoun was at In Flight sports when they recieved a shippment of discs. As the box was being sorted out the employee said "hey theses Valks are double stamped" Terry looked at the 4 misprints which were stamped once as a 150gm Dragon then again as a CE Valk. All of them are 174gms and look and fel like heavy Dragon plastic. I Traded Terry for one of these discs. What do I have? :confused:

brookep, a double stamp is essentially an X part. It may not be either one of the stamps. You have to compare it with a Dragon or Valkyrie. If it is a heavy Dragon. It is rare.

I am considering buying one, and I am wondering how the "ProLine" Beasts compare to the Champion Beasts. Were they more stable? I like the flippy Champion Beasts -- especially the ones in the very pliable translucent plastic. From what I hear -- most people like a stiffer plastic and the newest Champion Beasts I've seen are more opague and less flexible plastic. Are the flexible clearer Champion Beasts a thing of the past?

robj, there are no ProLine Beasts yet. Only Champion and DX. The Champion version is now a Barry Schultz signature disc. The lighter Champion Beasts tend to be more flexible. The lightest are the clearest. Through the mid ranges, the plastic could be either or a combination. If you like the flippy Beasts, look for the domiest or get the lightest.

Dave,

Yesterday I saw several "ProLine Beast" discs at a friend's and thought about buying one. I got the impression they preceded the Champion Beasts and that they may be a year old. Was I hallucinating?

No you weren't. I used to have a yellow 'Proline' Beast. I bought it in January when they were still a new(er) disc.

robj, sorry, I had forgotten about the original name. The plastic didn't change. There were variations then and there are variations now. The ProLine now is just the JK Aviar, KC Aviar, KC Roc, Pro Rhyno, and Pro Whippet. The discs you saw are probably over a year old.

Dave,
This may be a question that has been answered (possibly numerous times) but is it not possible (or just very difficult) to make a disk with the speed of a Beast and with the stability of a Tee-bird? The Viking is close but not quite there. Everyone and I mean everyone loves the Tee-bird, including myself, but I can't throw it as far as my Valkyries and my Viking and both fade at the end more than a Teebird. The big arms don't really care because they can reach the longest holes with one but as I'm new to the sport I don't have the power yet.
Kurt

Does that mean they are essentially the same plastic as the Champion Beasts which followed them? I found the Champion Beasts less stable than the DX . Would you expect the old ProLine Beasts to be more similar in terms of stability to the DX or to the Champions?

Kurt, it is possible, but very difficult to keep it consistent. I have had those very discs come out of the variations. I will do it eventually, I hope.

robj, I would expect the ProLine to be the same as the Champion. The DX tend to be more stable initially.

Hey Dave,
The NORCAL vs SOCAL thread isn't doing so well so I thought I would ask you here. Do you have any idea what the players package might be that you might be donating? Thanks, Dave, in advance..Kenny Lee

Thanks Dave,

one other question I have is about the Cheetah -- I presently carry the KC Pro Cheetah and I guess it is changing to the Champion Cheetah? Do you expect to continue to manufacture Cheetahs for the foreseeable future?

Dave

You had mentioned earlier that we would be seeing the pro line/CE Gremlin very soon. Any updates on a time frame?

Also, you said something about some new SE type plastic. Does that mean that we will see SE TL's again? I know they don't have the longest life, but oh so suweeet!

pterodactyl, I only know about the Champion Minis. Maybe Champion Aviars, I am not sure. Sorry.

robj, yes we plan on continuing the Champion and DX Cheetah.

chains 13, the time frame for the Gremlin is by January, I hope. If we get the plastic, we will be making multiple models with that plastic, including the TL. The first test batches of plastic are arriving soon, but they may not be right. It may take several tries to get the correct plastic. That could take months.

DAVE - What the oh-my-heck, are you doing up at FOUR IN THE MORNING??????
dude, go to bed. :D

DAVE - What the oh-my-heck, are you doing up at FOUR IN THE MORNING??????
dude, go to bed. :D





LOL.......... :)

That's when my day starts.

Dave,

On the Innovadiscs website yesterday, I noticed that y'all have introduced the Champion Aero. First of all, thank you. Secondly, how does it compare to the CE Aero? I bought a Champion Aviar, hoping it would compare to the CE (and expensive :( ) Aviar, but it was much more flippy. How does the Champion Aero fly as compared to the DX and CE Aero?

Hi Bill, I have only sporadically tested the Aeros unfortunately. The ones that I have tested were fairly similar to each other. The Aero was fairly straight and stable at slow and medium speeds, but would start to turn if thrown too hard or with flutter. The CE Aviar and Champion Aviar are two different discs. The Champion was designed as a putt and approach and is slightly unstable.

How does the Champion Aero fly as compared to the DX and CE Aero?



I picked up a couple of Champ Aeros last week and took 'em to my favorite practice field for a tryout. Since then, I've also played a few rounds with 'em. For my money, the Champ is very similar to DX and Pat. Pend. in stability and float/glide. (I found CE to be a bit overstable and less "floaty'glidey" compared to DX.) It also seems to handle more speed and power than DX without turning over, and is longer than either DX or CE. YMMV.

Mmmmm it sounds great! not quite enough to make me put down my XD's though. How about a Champ XD!!!!

Dave,

Thanks for reply. I can't wait to get one and try it out. I carry a CE Aero and also my orig. orange Eagle in my bag
(nothing glides like that bad boy).

Re: Champ Aviar. I was hoping that it would be made of the similar, durable and stiff plastic that other Champion and Pro Line discs are made of. Do you have anything currently available that would be as durable. I have a JK Aviar-x that I am using to simulate a CE Aviar.

Bill, unless we have any old CE Aviars left, nothing but the Champion Aviar putter types right now. Stay tuned. :cool:

DiscGraham, a Champion XD will happen sooner or later. :)

Dave, if you find any CE Aviars, can I get them?

Dave, I know this jumps off your current thread, but I was wondering when the last year San Marino Cobras were made. I have two glows from 94'. Thanks

Tony, the San Marino type Cobras are called "Cobra Classics" and are still currently produced periodically. Last run was about a year ago, I believe.

Dave I thought the classics were domier the glows that i have seem flatter. Thanks for the reply

tony, the Classics are about the same dome as Stingrays, which is more than the regular Cobras.

Dave...any chance we will ever see a comeback for the SE plastic(Or something comparable)? I always liked the SE plastic because it was more durable than DX, but easier to break in than Champion. I noticed that most of your competitors are going with a three plastic offering. Such as, Discraft has D, X and Z. Gateway has S, H and Evolution. I know that you have what's called the "Pro Line Plastic", but you only have a hand full of molds that are regularly produced in this plastic. I guess I am just wondering if we will ever see a greater majority of the molds offered in a plastic that is somewhere between DX and Champion plastic.

discchucker, we will be producing more of the models in the new Pro Line (SE type plastic) sooner or later. Our supply of that type plastic was interupted, but we are in the process of testing a new supply now.

This is good news. Can we get Teebirds first please. Beasts would be great as se plastic. the possibilities are endless. what about se vikings sweet. i just wet myself, gotta clean up

ce

We can do several at once, once the plastic comes in. First test plastic was too stiff. Next test in two or three weeks.

SE vikings and beasts would likely become my favorites.

I'm glad to hear that SEs are returning! That is/was my favorite plastic of all time. Has the right feel for a wide range of weather conditions...and is durable enough to warrant a higher cost than DX. I've tried to love the newer gummier plastics, but have only liked them...though they are highly durable. Having located 4 new old-school SE TLs, I've come to 're'realize what I've been missing...even if they are one of the last runs with some 'candy' added...probably even more durable, eh?
Bring back the Tee Bird TL for the masses Dave! /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

This will happen as fast as I can, unfortunately, I have to wait for the next plastic, and possibly another. :( I do see light at the end of the tunnel. /msgboard/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

Ya mon! :cool:
I've become intrigued with the XD and saw that they will be in line for new plastic. What are your favorite choices for "best putting plastic" and "best approach plastic", Dave?
I'm still a [*****] for a DX Roc, a soft SE Rhyno, and a good ole P&amp;A Aviar... Will there ever be a "Champion P&amp;A", as opposed to a KC BB Aviar??
Thanks,
Doc

Doc, my personal choice for both putting and approach is the JK AX. I do carry a Pro Rhyno too. There already is a Champion Aviar from the putter mold.

great news about se plastic. i have been throwing x-preds and x-wildcats for the last year or so because of the feel and grip i get. candy [z or ce] is too slick for me and therefore i get inconsistant releases. if we could have se vikings and rocs the constant searching would be over.

Dave, did you make any "pink" Panthers? <font color="pink"> </font>

I'm sure we made some for inspector clousseau. :cool:

Ya, but what does Kato throw?

Recently I was looking around at some PIAS stores and I found an old stamp Classic roc.

Now this isn't the Classic Roc stamp with ROC written down the middle. It has an the old Innova Logo, and the word ROC is written in bold letters(like the ace stamp) and the word "classic" is in italics above it.

About how old is this classic roc?

If it has the word "classic" on it, it is a recent edition of the original model that came out around1985.

dave

were any of the 2nd run valks produced in transluscent plastic. most of the ones i had seen before were opaque, hard plastic in red, blue, yellow, and white. recently i have found some very stable valks that are fairly transluscent. they have a smaller raised dimple, and have an indentation common to most flattops. also, do all the 2nd runs have the sharp flashing. again, most the ones i have seen have it, but one of the transluscents does not. are these transluscents 2nd runs, if not what run are they?

i also noticed that early runs of CE plastic (1st, 2nd, maybe 3rd) have the weight written rather largely in the underside circle, usually the number taking up the entire circle. this puts the writing for the type of disc (i.e. TL, VK, FL) on the outside of the circle. newer runs seem to have all this writing (type and weight) completely inside of the underside circle. do you think this would be a reliable way to differeniate early run CE from late run CE plastic?


thanks

I have a sort of weird question for you about disc plastic. Is there any way to reshape a disc with heat or a microwave or and iron or the like?

I have one. I've thrown it hyzer and anyzer and it's just plain
weird. I let a monster arm kid throw it (he'd just thrown a couple of discs OUT of a soccer field from the goal line). For
him, the thing just tracked left in a huge shallow hyzer.
For me (old arm, new to golf discs), I can throw it anyzer and it goes right for about 220 feet and then flips insantly left to vertical and goes STRAIGHT DOWN! Great if you're trying to throw it into a garbage can.
Might be the best place to throw it.

P.S.
On the other hand, there is a rumor that this disc can accomplish, for the first time ever in the history of flying plastic, the legendary 'Weyand Dream Throw.'


Love to hear about it if you've done this.

Roy, I believe the 2nd run was halfway between what we're running now and the original opaque. They all had flash, as far as I know. The translucents probably are not 2nd run, but I don't know what run they are from. The large lettering and numbers were early runs, but not everone did it. Small lettering and numbers could also be from early runs.

Blarg, yes you can reshape discs with an oven, but it is very easy to ruin them. Plastic has a memory that can be restored sometimes with low heat. Anything else would probably be considered post production modification.

As mentioned in the title, I have a most unusual disc I'd like your thoughts on. I have a CE Valkyrie. It's either a late first run or early second run (I'm not an expert so I can't say for certain). It is (solid) light blue with the gold stamp. Here's what's unusual about it...it GLOWS! It's not nearly as bright as specifically made glow discs, but it does indeed glow and you can definitely see the shadow of your hand behind it in the dark.

Have you ever heard of anything like this? In my (admittedly limited) searches on the net, I've yet to hear of another. Your thoughts/comments would be most appreciated.

Thanks!

GSL, It might have been a transition from a recent run of Glow CE Valks we did in October. There are discs that come out just before and just after the discs with acceptable glow amounts are run. We put those in with the regular stock. You probably have one of those.

Dave...unconfuse me. You stated that there is a "Champion P&amp;A" Aviar that is not a Big Bead, right? I'm not finding this at Innovadiscs.com...and I don't recall seeing one of these at my favorite outlets. Help! :o
I believe all the Champions, KC and JK, are BBs...?

circle 2, I screwed up. The Champion Aviar is the P&amp;A mold with a big bead. The KC and JK are driver big bead. Thank you, and sorry for the confusion.

Dave, I've got a great idea for a "new disc"!!!
How about a nice gummy (read 'not' super-soft) Aviar in the P&amp;A mold?
(You can call it the Circle 2... /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif)

Dave,

My apologies, I wasn't specific enough. This isn't a new Valkyrie by any means. It's one of the very VERY first CE Valkyries from way back when CE discs were in the early stages. It was the first non-red CE disc I'd ever seen at the time. I've had the disc for around 2-3 years or so (I forget exactly when they first came out). Does any of that matter by any chance? Regardless, thanks for your help.

circle 2, circle r would not like that. ;)

GSL, I don't remember doing any glow CE that long ago. I might have been a test, but I don't remember. Sorry. :p

At the 2000 NorCal/SoCal Challenge Cup (in January of 2001) the player pack discs were CE Leopards. I remember that some of the yellow ones glowed in the dark, but not all of them. Mike Byrne noticed it because he was handing them out and had them all spread around his room and must've turned off the lights to go to bed.

I don't recall anything but a select few yellows glowing, though. I'd keep that blue one, and if you haven't thrown it yet, don't! :)

No problem at all, Dave. Thanks for your help!

Rhett, thanks for sharing your similar experience. I noticed mine glowed by accident as well. Unfortunately, it was in my bag for a while. Fortunately, it was my best disc so I refused to use it on holes where I might hit a tree/gravel/concrete/etc, so even though I used it, it's still in fantastic shape. It was when I removed it from my bag and carried it up to my room to put on my disc wall of fame that I noticed it glowing when I turned the light off. Needless to say, it took me by surprise!

And don't worry, I'm definitely keeping this one safe and sound. ;)

Thanks again to you both!

Dave, where can I get a glow CE valk?
Thanks,
Bud

Bud, sorry I don't know right now. I assume it would be a fundraiser disc, but I don't see it on the list right now. :confused:

Sorry Dave, I thought you said "recent run of Glow CE Valks we did in October"

Again thanks,
BUD

dave i have a few questions about discs, more general ones i suppose.

i always hear people saying flippy this and that, like a certain run of beasts are more flippy than another, or certain type of plastic or whatever. what does that mean?

also, as far as the sheer amounts of discs available, it seems like it would be hard to really find the ones that you like, wouldnt it? if people are carrying like 15 discs in their bag, obviously in a round each one is going to be used not THAT much, i know some more than others, but still. some have applications for only certain situations. so how do you really know how that less used disc really works for you, if there are so many different types, yet you only throw it so often? do you know what i mean? like people say "this disc is a tad more understable than this one" well, someone could throw it and say that, but what if they just threw it differently, you know? sorry if this sounds dumb, im just trying to figure out about the different types of discs. it seems like you could just take any disc and throw it the way you want. im sure some will do certain things based on how you throw it that others wont, but for instance, the rating on the starfire vs. the viking is a .5 difference...is that seriously noticeable? and how would you know? you throw them both, and one does one thing and one does the other, but isnt it just a possibility that one got thrown different than the other even in the slightest amount, so it would fly slightly different? ok again, sorry for all of this. just some thoughts.

flippy means that the disc turns over faster than normal. It's difficult to get to know exactly how a bag full of discs is going to fly in all kinds of different winds or situaltions. Yes, two people could throw the same exact disc in the same conditions and get a different result due to the way it was thrown. You could throw the same disc twice and get two different results too. That's why the pros tend to use straight flying discs whenever possible. There is less guess work. They also tend to use the same discs over and over so that they are not surprised.

GSL, It might have been a transition from a recent run of Glow CE Valks we did in October. There are discs that come out just before and just after the discs with acceptable glow amounts are run. We put those in with the regular stock. You probably have one of those.



i believe mr. Busch was referring to this statement Dave

Happy Thanksgiving Dave. I recently got some Champion Edition Spiders, and the plastic feels and looks very similar to the current Champion Spiders. I was expecting the stiffer stuff like I have seen on CE Eagles, Leopards etc. How similar is this CE plastic to the current Champion mix? Did I pay twice as much for the same stuff? Thanks. :confused:

Happy Thanksgiving, I think the Spider runs have all been fairly similar between the CE and the Champion. There is a softer plastic also used for lighter weights. I don't think any of the Spiders have been particularly stiff.

hey dave.... could there be plans for a dave greenwell champion condor in the making?? if not then is it possible to get the other champ!!! onto a disc??

speaking of champions, what does JK throw besides Aviar X's and Valk.s? and how about Barry? what is in his bag other than Beasts?

johnbart, we tried to make the Candy Condor, but it was too heavy. We have an alternative material that might work in the Pro series. Were still trying.

robj

if you go to www.innovadiscs.com (http://www.innovadiscs.com) and click on the team link there are profiles of most of the team Innova players and what they throw.

robj, moolie is correct. That list of discs that they throw may have changed by one or two, but it is essentially up to date. Barry throws Rocs very well.

thanks for the link. i checked out the "what's in the bag" section for some of the players on Team Innova, and i was surprised to see that Ken Climo apparently doesn't throw Cheetahs. what's up with that? :) (i kind of liked thinking i knew of someone besides me who throws them). Speaking of Cheetahs, how do the Champion Cheetahs differ from the KC Pro Cheetahs if at all? Are they like the 11 time or 10 time? (for me my white 10x is much more stable than my red 11x)

robj, Ken used to throw Cheetahs as his main driver through the New York Worlds. After that, he switched to TeeBirds as his main long driver. The Champion Cheetah is slightly more stable than the original KC Cheetah, but about the same as the CE version, I believe.

not that Ken should take my advice, but i think he should go back to carrying the Cheetah :)
it would make me like it all the more.

a CE Cheetah? Wow! were they a limited production disc?

I just read David Greenwell's profile at the Innova site. It said he was born in 1955. That means that he wasn't old enough to play and win the Grandmaster division at the Worlds 2003. Dave, you better check that boy's ID!

Hey, I got some sweet plastic condor in santa cruz not to long ago. didnt feel to heavy.. but Im pretty sure it was one of the old domey mold. maybe just a cheaper lynx dont really know. But I know some old condors were made in a lynx mold. Kinda curious how &amp; when this started. Got the feeling they are probably going to take for ever and never be as good as the lynx.......still kinda bitter. :mad:

those are the new light condors that Christian Sandstrom made his world record 94m TRC record with. They are a new run.

Kenny, good catch. I think his dob is supposed to be 52 or 53. We're trying to get it right now. Thanks. :p

Thanx Dave!

Kenny, Dave's dob is 1953. We checked it out yesterday and will change the website soon. Thanks

Dave D. what is up with the 181g. Max out on the new CE Vipers. Mold retooling? :confused:
Thanks
Dale Patterson

Dave, did y'all or will you ever make any stiff sharks in the clear plastic? I've only seen the "easily bendable" ones. Are these intentional or happenstance?

Also, what would you say is your most overstable midrange?

Dave:

Will you be producing old SE/KC plastic with the old material anytime soon? :confused:

GATOR

Big Easy, I don't know. You might have a goof. As far as I know the weight limit is 180.1. You can return it.

James, we have made both types of Champion Sharks. The Champion Shark is one of our more overstable mid ranges. The Gator is the most overstable. In the next longest catagory, it is the Champion Viper.

We will be producing SE/KC type discs as soon as we can. Hopefully by January, but it depends on how long it takes to get the new run of plastic.

dave, are you still producing the dx ram, if so i think its just a bit more stable than a gator ;)

Dave

I am sure you are sick of answering this question but, if you are working with SE/KC plastic again will there be another Super Roc anytime soon?

I heard that they were out of this kind of plastic and couldn't get anymore.

Paul, we are still producing the DX Ram X in limited quantities. It is definitely more overstable than the Gator.

Moolie, I am definitely in favor of a super roc, but not everyone is here. I think it will happen, but not sure.

Kid Roc, we are out of the plastic, but are in the process of getting more from a different distributor. Hopefully soon.

Dave, I've never seen the stiff candy sharks. Do you know if they have been made recently and is there an official distinction/designation one uses when ordering these to differentiate between the two types?

davei:

Is this new plastic the exact same as the original SE/KC material? Or just like the new Pro Line/Champion plastic. People want the OLD school material. Let us know. Thanks.

James, I don't know if they are stiff or just stiffer. The heavier candy discs tend to be the stiffer.

IDG, the plastic hasn't been recieve yet, so I can't tell you if it's identical or not, but we are shooting for the same opaque white stiff grippy stuff we used for KC/SE and Millennium. This stuff is not as durable as candy, but a lot of people like the grip.

If you like the Ram, I'm telling you that you NEED to get one of the CFR Vipers. I'm serious.

Dave
Any chance the Beast will ever mold a true 150 class in candy?

Dave:

Can you explain what were the true 1st run Champion Edition Plastic were? Like were they all candy apple red, etc... For all the Old school CE. Can you shed some light on this please?

DG

Bob, the Beast can't be made at 150 in candy without altering the flight characteristic. Mid fifties start to mold poorly.

josh, I'm not sure I understand the question. The first pure candy discs were probably the clear candy TeeBirds at the Michigan Worlds. The first runs were a mixture of opaque reds and some translucent and transparent blues.

Dave,
Thanks, I got my wife a 158g but can't find her any backups even close.

dave--i just got 3 new proline rhinos--when i got around to checking them out at home [i mail-ordered] i saw that 2 are nice and soft and grippy. the other was slicker and stiffer. they are the same weight and are all white. were there 2 diffirent types as far as the new pro-line rhinos go? i expected them all to be soft, like the old SEs.

A b'tweener Rhyno 'might' be useful...though it's not what you ordered.

steven, if that is not what you wanted you should return it to the dealer. The dealer can return it to us. It's possible it was mixed, molded, stamped or boxed incorrectly. We are running them right now and they are soft and rubbery. Sorry for the problem.

can someone explain what the SE plastic is? ive read on the innova site about the differences in plastic and everything, but i am definitely interested in learning more about the characteristics of different plastics. i know the dx, and then candy, which is apparently now champion, but i dont recall seeing anything about SE.

will there be a disc like the Epic made by anyone else other than aerobie? Id love to see one in candy plastic. I know there kinda of a silly disc, but they are sooo sweet for thumbers.

The SE is Special Edition and where we put discs that don't have any other catagory. The plastic may be anything except DX.

IMO... In the mid-late 90s, Millenium used a great type of grippy plastic in their Polaris discs which seemed very similar to what Innova then began to use in their Ken Climo Pro Edition line = KC Pro. Next, after the KC line, timewise, were the Special Edition discs, the SE Tee Bird TL, SE Leopard, and the Super Roc. Many people, including myself, felt that this was the best feeling plastic (at the time...maybe ever?), because it offered a great grip and increased durability over the DX plastic...the only other choice in the Innova line (at that time).
Millenium is a type of subsidiary of Innova, sharing some disc molds together...and those Polaris LS's and LF's were sweet!

it seems that the champion discs tend to bounce more when they land, is that common, or is it just me? just trying to figure out the best type of plastic to use for certain discs, etc..seems like dx for approach discs would be better if that really is the case, right?

Dave, Innova came out with a ce aviar in 01,02 but most call them frist run I see. Was their only one run with ce but a lot of stamps or a lot of runs? Can you tell me how many stamp are out their ?thanks CHASH

Hey, I got to toss around a candy Roc the Other day with Discette a bit, nice would be an understatement, but NICE.

speaking of epics- I would love to see a new disc come out- the Bullet, like the epic, but harder, with less attempt at stability. Just a modified Throwing Star in terms of flight, with only one small opening/rim for tommies and thumbers. The Great thing about the epic is it's flight on tommies and thumbers. I haven't quite figured it out yet, but I can throw mine about 500 one out of three or four times- and it travels that distance way way up there- imagine if Innova made a specialized disc for that flight!

Candy discs do bounce more than DX. They skip more too. The exception is the second run Champion Aviar which has very little bounce.

CASH, there has been two runs. First was short. I don't know anything about the stamps. Sorry.

pete, I have posted about this before and what you say about the one thumb hole is a logical progression of the epic. I am against it, even though I could make it myself. I don't think it should be considered a flying disc. It is in essence what you call it, a throwing star, or a plate. Aerobies are not flying discs either. At least the PDGA could see that. I would rather see smaller discs than change the nature of what is considered a disc. But I don't want to see smaller discs either. I don't want to see heavier discs either, that would also change the nature of the sport.

Could you design an effective thumb-hole overhand style disc and stay within the current PDGA specs? It seems like in order to comply with the regs (flexibility, in particular), something would have to give.

And even if you had such a disc, what would the advantages be? I realize you'd be able to get a lot of snap on thumbers, but would that be worth the tradeoffs? By continuing the idea of the Epic to its "logical conclusion," a single thumb hole, wouldn't you be eliminating the flight plate and the rim: the very things that allow discs to fly the way they do? A quick look at the world distance records for various ballistic throwing objects should tell us we're better off sticking with discs. Discus: 240 feet. Javelin: 307 feet. Baseball: 445 feet.

Certainly, there are shots that would be easier to make with a baseball - but not with a dinner plate. And it's hard to imagine anyone making a PDGA-legal disc with the flight characteristics of a baseball. So it seems like the current PDGA regulations leave room to innovate while keeping our sport safe from total perversion.

I still think the best way to avoid opening the door to the problems the Epic presages is to stick with a definition of a golf disc as being symmetrical. Dave -- did you say earlier that symmetry is part of the PDGA's present definition of a legal disc, or just that it should be?

Also, did you ever hear back from the PDGA regarding your concern about the problems which assymetrical rims pose for the future of disc golf? Since you could easily design such discs if they did not conflict with your appreciation of what a golf disc is, I don't think you should hesitate to air your view on this.

P.S. if my opinion on this matter makes me a disc golf purist -- it works for me.

the current specs do not call for symetry. That's why the Epic passed. It met all existing standards.

SE Beasts? Sounds like a wicked disc. I used to throw the SE Teebird, man I miss that plastic!

Thanks for your hard work Dave.

Hmm, good point. But the epic launched in this fashion will still level off and fly most of it's flight as per a conventional disc. Why does this change the nature of the game? It is a different throw to be sure...

1. because traditionally a golf disc is evenly weighted and symmetrical.

2. because a golf disc design expert says it opens pandora's box if the epic is considered legal.

so, what is the solution? imo, a PDGA rule that a golf disc must be symmetrical to be legal.

Dave, what was the reasoning behind the making of the Tee Bird "TL"...why wasn't it just given another name?
How do/did TLs perform for you?
Am sho'nuff looking forward to its return as a regular production disc! :D

1. because traditionally a golf disc is evenly weighted and symmetrical.

2. because a golf disc design expert says it opens pandora's box if the epic is considered legal.

so, what is the solution? imo, a PDGA rule that a golf disc must be symmetrical to be legal.



1. But traditionally golf discs have been allowed to evolve freely within the boundaries of the PDGA specs. Is there a precedent for changing the rules to prohibit a design feature?

2. True, but while Dave's opinion carries more weight than most, it's not necessarily the last word.

My question is, what kind of Pandora's Box has been opened? How will an asymetrically-weighted disc change the nature of the game? Is there actually a way in which an Epic-like design, carried to some future extreme, could provide such a boost to performance as to make all other discs - and all existing courses - obsolete? Or is the fear that a more ballistic disc would take very little skill or practice to use, and that the game would degenerate into hackers slinging plates? If either of these, or something similar, can be shown to be happening, then - and only then - the PDGA should step in. Otherwise, let the rules stand as they are.

circle 2 the original reasoning was to de-overstabilize the TeeBird. After the original run, the plastic seemed to have changed slightly and we went back to the original version. The TL version was good on its own merits as a long range straight flyer.

boru, I agree with your assessment except that I believe the symetry has always been implied. I also believe that the ballistic advantage would allow the game to degenerate into "hackers slinging plates" and I believe you can already see it with the epic let alone the version with the one thumbhole previously described.

boru, if you search the archive of this thread, Dave has already explained what you are asking. Because this thread is established for people to ask Dave questions about Innova discs, I started a thread in the "Rules and Standards" area to discuss this issue. Dave, did you ever hear back from the PDGA regarding your concerns? I'd be interested in hearing their thought process on this subject, if you don't mind sharing what they said.

How will an asymetrically-weighted disc change the nature of the game? Is there actually a way in which an Epic-like design, carried to some future extreme, could provide such a boost to performance as to make all other discs - and all existing courses - obsolete?



I competed in an all-around event in August, in which I threw Epics in the distance event because I can regularly throw thumbers 400-420' with them owing to their exaggerated glide coming out of the corkscrew. (My personal best distance with a regular (symmetrical) golf disc is 323' BH, and ~250' FH.) With an Epic, distance is a function of height: it's all about throwing the thing high enough to let it glide out. Locally, there are any number of wide open holes that I can reach with an Epic thumber that I don't come close to reaching with a regular golf disc.

imo, a PDGA rule that a golf disc must be symmetrical to be legal.



Heck, that knocks out almost everything I have!! Stupid trees... :p

They apparently don't get it, but they're not saying anything except the Epic literally reads by the specs. To me, it's the same thing as targets. I don't want to see directional targets or ground baskets or anything other than a target designed to have a disc fly into it horizontally, and be captured from 360 degrees. I think the target size should be specified too. I was okay with the cable catcher and the tri state plastic chain basket. To me, it did not change the nature of the game. There are different balls for different sports too. Many could be used interchangeably, but they are not. You don't use a hardball for softball. It is much easier to manage ballistic shots than it is flying shots. I have seen guys absolutely tear up courses with UDs before the Epic. I have seen players who only throw UDs, who are very good with them but suck at flying shots. Discs were already too ballistic, imo. The Epic design and its logical conclusion , (which I have already designed and made) shifts the emphasis over to ballistic over flying considerably, and that is a bad thing for disc golf, in my opinion.

Dave,
I have an idea for a disc design (not assymetric!) that might
result in a disc that cannot be turned over.
My question is, what do I do with the idea? Is it possible
to order a disc made to certain specs?

Blarg, I'm not sure what you mean, but if you have a design that can't be turned over and yet goes straight, that would be something. If you just mean way overstable, there are already discs like that. If it is truely a unique design you can trademark or patent it. You can even copywrite the design and sell it to a disc manufacturer. Yes, you can order a disc made to certain specs, but it is pretty expensive.

Davei, I was purposely vague, as, if the idea is viable, someone else might take it.
If the idea works, the disc would hold whatever line it is thrown on. Unfortunately, I have no access to injection molding devices and I really know only a little about the process.
How hot does a disc have to get to reshape it? I know it's not
PDGA legal, but maybe I could ruin a disc to make a test model or two. :p

boru, if you search the archive of this thread, Dave has already explained what you are asking. Because this thread is established for people to ask Dave questions about Innova discs, I started a thread in the "Rules and Standards" area to discuss this issue.



I remember when this issue came up before. I had the same questions at the time (which were touched upon, but never answered), but I didn't ask them. And since this is the "Question for Dave D" thread, and I was specifically interested in what he had to say, I thought I'd ask my question here.

Dave, thanks for your answers. Just one more thing: What's a UD?

Ooooh, oooh, oooh, Mr. Kotter, I have the answer.


UD is upside down!

Gotta love that edit function!!!

boru, UD is upside down. Tommahawks, hook thumbers, scoobies, etc., or ballistic shoots.

Hey Dave. Woah. I just read all 65 pages of previous posts. I didn't realize you had already spoken extensively on the subject. Sorry about that. I too share the aforeposted respect of the originality of the design, though I must also agree with you about it detracting from the- what I will call the Spirit of the Sport- I'm reading M. Scott Peck right now...

Anyway, I agree, sorry to bring up old news.

So, new Question! I had thought that the more flexible flight plate behaved differently- especially in the first all important moments of the flight. My theory was that say you threw the disc along a perfectly level flight with good snap, but at the last moment your hand deviated a little, some turn one way or the other, that was not transferred perfectly evenly to the whole disc. Imagine a Wobbling Putt. Wouldn't a More Flexible Disc Reduce Wobble? Say the Blowfly versus the Hard Aviar. Or JK versus KC? Personally I like JK in Putters because I had thought it was more forgiving on my release, not just for the Grip. What are your thoughts? :D

boru, i wasn't trying to imply you shouldn't discuss it here, or ask Dave about it -- but last time it came up here someone suggested we should start a separate thread to discuss the Epic and the concerns it creates, so I was just pointing out that I had done so. Dave, have you been reading that thread?

and thanks boru for asking what UD means because i was clueless also.

robj - My bad, I guess I didn't read you right. Thanks for starting the thread. I think it's a subject that deserves some debate.

Glad to hear I wasn't the only one who hadn't heard UD before. But now that we know what it means, we can use it to devastating effect on the course!

Pete, if the disc is soft enough and thrown with enough force, what you say can happen. Yes a soft disc could reduce dampen wobble. At even higher forces, the disc can change shape and flatten considerable, depending on amount of softness and rate of spin.

robj, no I have not been reading that thread, but I will, thanks.

Dave, did the "repaired" 4x Aviar-X's make production yet?

I know the hard 4x's are still going out the door, just wondering when we might see the softer ones again....

S D, the hard JKs were taken off the floor a few weeks ago when it was brought to my attention, and the softer type have been shipping since. I don't know if they have reached retail yet or not. They should have by now.

Dave, I have only been seeing the harder 4 time JK Aviars too, and look forward to the softer stuff again being available. I was thinking about maybe using the harder ones for approach and staying with the softer ones for putts. Is the harder JK essentially the same plastic as the KC Aviar? Is it more durable in terms of withstanding impact with trees?

I was thinking about maybe using the harder ones for approach and staying with the softer ones for putts.



I had considered that very same thing......I have 3-4 of each type, but only have 2 softies in the bag....maybe Ill pull out a hard one or two, and try that...

maybe Ill pull out a hard one or two, and try that...


Now that's just sick :D

LOL.....You have been hanging around My Hero too much!

robj, the harder JK is not the same as the KC. As far a durability, I think the softer JK is more durable than the harder.

Dave, could you email me? I was trying to send you an email, but I guess your old address isn't active anymore.
[email protected]

Dave,

I concur on the durability. I bought 5 of the hard JK's, (unintentionally) :confused:, two months ago. Wish I had known what to watch out for. Everyone of them has major gouges from number plates or puckers from the rings on top. The soft ones are also much better here in the great white north. The ones I have need to be placed just right or they spit due to their hardness in the cold. I guess I'll just buy another five. :(

i have a champion aviar, how can i tell if its a first or second run?

What stamp does it have? If it is from a 2001 tournament or 2002 U.S. Masters or 2002 Worlds, then it is a first run.

Not sure, but one test is the bounce test. If it hits the ground with a thud instead of a bounce, it's the latest run. The CE Aviars were the previous run and were stiffer and bouncier.

Dave,

I just learned through Zonedriven's site you've got Champion Whippet X's out now, what's your take on them, wayyy overstable or?? :confused:

I only have preliminary test data, but they are pretty overstable, but not too much. I believe Rhett had said that the Candy Vipers were more overstable. They reminded me of a shorter version of the Monster.

Are the champion stingrays out yet?

Hey, dont mean to jump in here, but they are available on the zone driven web site, https://www.zonedriven.com/catalog/default.php

Erick

Sharky, the Champion Stingrays are out. Not all retailers know about them yet, but they will soon, as we sent a mailing out last week.

I haven't thrown a Champion Whippet, but that CE Viper is so sick overstable that I don't believe anything more overstabel would be usable. :)

But Dave, if you comp me a couple of CE Whippets and CE Stingrays, I'll be glad to post a review. :)

Dave, you may have answered this before but some guy is selling first run valks on ebay that are not red or blue. What colors of first runs exist? Is this guy trying to pull a fast one?

He may not be selling candy valks. They may be SE or DX. If he is selling candy valks, and they are not red or blueberry, I wouldn't get them.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&amp;item=3644510174&amp;category=20 851

Here take a look. I think that he is a being dishonest.

no [*****]

While I do not know about this Valk, I do know about the seller. I have bought some stuff from him before (not on E-bay) that you can not find anywhere. Last fall I purchased a Red, a clear and an orange (yes orange and I am 1000% sure it is a 2001) 2001 CE Roc's :D. He is a straight shooter with great connections.

orange 2001 ce roc? So, do you think that is a 1st run valk? I think that he is trying to rip trusting people off. I would like to hear Dave's opinion on this.

Nathan

I am a Roc junkie and have never owned a Valk that I was not going to sell at a later time so I am not sure about the disc. I do know this seller is a reputable TD and promoter and would have zero to gain from trying to make an extra $30.00 off some rube on e-bay by lying about the disc. Dave is obviously the poobah of all thing Innova so he would know much better than I, but I do know the seller has some insanely rare goodies in his collection.

That seller is just about the most trustworthy guy out there. I would tell you his name, but it's pretty obvious from his eBay handle. :)

I know for fact that there were a couple of red CE Rocs in 2001, so Orange is totally believable. There were also some clears.

I never heard of clear/white CE Valks before, but coming from this guy I 100% believe it is legit. Maybe I'll bid on it.

Also, I wouldn't count on Dave Dunipace to be the definitive answer. Dave is the mad scientist that is always coming up with new discs and plastic blends, trying to get the perfect disc to run trouble free. He doesn't even try to remember what all he runs or in what colors. Not a slight on Dave, but he just isn't a collector.

Yes it was an orange CE Roc from 2001. I had two. They came from the same place as the CE Valk's in question. As I said in my email to you I also had many 1st run CE Valk's in blue, grey, and purple's. Just ask around, it is no secret. And they just happened to be custom stamped.

Moolie is correct when he says I have nothing to gain from saying they are 1st runs if they are not. I am a full time TD in Texas and have the most successful disc golf tour in the country. In 2004 I have major sponsorship from Budweiser and thousands of players that know and trust me. In the last 3 years I have donated over $24,000 to the Lance Armstrong Foundation from the tour.

If you don't trust me then fine, just don't bid on the disc. If the person that buys it does not think it is a 1st run I will refund the money, no questions asked.

Merry Christmas to the guys from Innova.

:cool:

And if you ever want to get rid of that other orange one Chris... ;)

if you or anyone else has a orange or red '01, i will trade you my left nut straight up.... seriously

Chris, sorry, I guess I don't remember any other colors other than the opaque red and blueberry. If you say you have some orange, I believe you. You are a stand up guy. The first run would also have the sharp flashing on the edge and be among the stiffest of the CE Valks.

Just to be clear on the first run. I believe they were first released at the So Cal Championships in Oct of 2000, as far as I remember. Rhett should know for sure as the custom stamp had the date. The second run was available for the Memorial in 2001. They were the flat ones with the softer plastic.

Hi Dave. Thanks to all the guys that have had nice words to say about me. The few emails I have received from people that think I am lying should question your own motives. Please read the above posts including mine.

Sorry to my friends at Innova if anyone has called questioning the CE Valkyrie I have on ebay. I will not be selling the remaining five I have. I will use them as very cool CTP's at my next event. Five people will be very happy.

Dave if you are wondering I got the two orange CE Rocs and these CE Valks from the crazy bald guy in Rock Hill (not Harold). The 1st run CE Valks I had that were blue, purple, grey etc all came from the east coast. They were for the San Marcos Open I ran in early November of 2000. I have lots of guys in Texas that have them all from me and some with my Kangaroo stamp which was done by mistake.

Thanks again. Check out my profile photo of me and Lance Armstrong.

:cool:

I bought a ce valk at 2001 national doubles (its blue) how can I detrmine what run it is . also have another one with sp written on it .. THANKS #21173

We had the Star-Stamped red and sky blue Valks at the SoCal Championships in 2000. Along with the star-stamped Gazelles. :)

No custom stamps at that one. The star-stamps were better than a SoCal logo!

Chris, I had no idea who you are, and never ment any harm towards you personally. It's just that there is some shaddy stuff on ebay and I thought maybe you were trying to pull a fast one on someone. No hard feelings ok.

I bought a ce valk at 2001 national doubles (its blue) how can I detrmine what run it is . also have another one with sp written on it .. THANKS #21173



send it to me, i'll throw it and let you know

chris, what event will those be the CTP's for?

No worries Nathan, I understand. If I tried to screw anyone around here they would call a Texas lynch mob. I think I am safe.

Martin I will just have to surprise you at which location I will CTP those others. I will bring the couple of kangaroo blue, grey and purple ones just for the fun of it.

There is still one guy that thinks I am a lying joke so please stop emailing me and calling Innova and get a life. You are now free to sell your own discs on ebay without my competition. I have a disc golf tour to run.

Thanks
Chris

I bought a ce valk at 2001 national doubles (its blue) how can I detrmine what run it is . also have another one with sp written on it .. THANKS #21173



send it to me, i'll throw it and let you know

<font color="red"> </font>

REAL JEFFERSON WHY BE A SMART *** I"M SIMPLY CURIOUS IS THAT A FREAKIN PROBLEM....

CAN ANYONE ANSWER MY QUESTION PLEASE?????

What the hell is your problem? I think he made a joke.

If someone knew the answer to your question, they would probably post it.

ummm....yeah. Not sure why I am posting this but have a Happy Holiday from Burger King: (http://load.pquinn.com/binaries/fries/)

And here is a Christmas present for you Mr. Tasker.

http://www.richstevens.com/flash/disco.swf
:D

whoa... sorry i forgot to put smartass in my bio (BTW, you can write "smartass"). seriously, if you send it to me i CAN tell you what run it is. but, if you don't consider me trustworthy here you go:

since dave recently said 1st runs came out in 2000, then most likely the blue valk is a 2nd run. if it has sharp flashing, is super flat (almost concave), has a raised nipple on the top, and is 4 times more stable than any other valk you have ever thrown it is probably a 2nd run.

if it is domey it could possibly be a blueberry 1st run. in all likelihood it is a 2nd run, possibly a 1st. i believe most 3rd runs were dayglow and came out later. if you can, get up with Chris_Himing, he seems to be a dependable afficionado/expert on early valks.

RJ, maybe if you had used one of these, :), :D, or ;), it would've be more obvious you were being funny.

Or if you meant it, you can just keep doing what you do. :cool:

NO offense to anyone . I am an Am discgolfer , and feel fortunate to be aquanted with the great disc golf community in Austin ,Texas .I love my new found sport.I have busted my [*****] trying to improve my game .

The reason I was offended was because , I look to this great resource as an encyclopedia of disc golf .I respect the knowledge of the sport, for which you guys posses.I've tried twice to gain info. about discs , both times i have received smart [*****] answers.THANKS

Every chance I get I help and encourage new players...

TEXAS TEN 2004 (can't wait) THANKS CHRIS>>>

INNOVA

BUDWEISER

GREAT COMBINATION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Dave:

Lokking on the Innova website I was surprised to see the number codes used for the Champion Whippet. What is described in the prose as a very overstable disc is rated at -2 for turn and +1 for fade. Did some other disc's specs get entered here by mistake?

I am way too weenie-armed to throw a Whippet, alas, but am getting a lot of use -- and D -- out of my 158-gm SE Valk.

Thanks, Dave.

Karl Nehring

Karl, good catch. The numbers are supposed to be 6, 3, +1, +3. on the Whippet. Thanks.

Thanks Innova for the Champion Stingray Holiday Disc, I had to order another champion stingray because the Mrs. wouldn't let me throw it! :D

1st run CE Valkyries and CE ROCS!
Valkyries
Opaque Red - common
Blueberry - very limited run numbers - rare
Colors Chris has - very rare - not regular production run colors, almost prototypes

CE ROCS
Green - common - 1588
Green X-Outs - "one division one champion" stamp - rare
Clear - very rare 40 - 20 with blank zonedriven ghost stamp - 20 with black zonedriven stamp
Red and Orange - extremely rare - these had the "one division one champion stamp" Chris has the oranges and I know who has the reds :p
Green with Zonedriven ghost stamp - extremely rare
Green with no stamp - maybe 3 or 4 got out - "if you have to ask then you can't afford it".
Green with an old Big Bird ROC stamp - 1!!!! - Priceless!!!
/msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

CE Valkyries to question on Ebay - "1st run, tye dye, 2000 USDGC CE Valkyries"
There are a few that are starting to pop up that claim they are 1st run tye dye CE Valkyries from the 2000 USDGC.

I've asked the folks at Innova about this numerous times. The conflist arises from certain known facts. The dyed discs are all white which would throw off the whole red and blue 1st run thing. There were a few hundred that had the USDGC stamp and were dyed. Secondly, no one at Innova remembers dying any 1st run CE Valkyries with the exception of a few that were done for Zonedriven as a test. They has access to the few white ones that were available. Thirdly, the USDGC CE Valkyries were from the 2001 USDGC. Part of the players packages along with the limited, ghost stamped, purple Z-Cyclones.

Hope this helps out a little.

Disclaimer: I'm not the complete authority on CE discs. However my close proximity to Innova as well as an inquiring mind every time I go there gains certain information. I use this information to answer questions in the disc golf store I own as well as for doing research for items I sell on Ebay.
Any negative emails should be directed to Chris Himing. :D

Thanks Innova for the Champion Stingray Holiday Disc, I had to order another champion stingray because the Mrs. wouldn't let me throw it! :D



did those stingrays pick up any stability in the champion plastic???

All this debate surrounding Innova discs all the time becomes tiresome. I wish that there was some offical documentation on the discs and the runs. I think that it only makes sense, since all the discs become so collectiable. Sort of like a beckett price guide for discs.

duh..... i throw mostly innova, and am very happy with innova.....except for this issue! i understand and am fine with some runs of the same discs being different... but why not put run #'s on discs?

A simple solution would be for the person who writes the weight in grams to add another # or code indicating a born-on date...this would be easier than changing the hotstamp as per Millenium's method.
A, B, C, D for each of the 4 seasons (Winter through Fall) accompanied by the year...ie D/3 for Fall/Autumn of 2003, for instance...
The code, just like the weight would wear off with use, but who really cares at that point. An unthrown or newer disc is where this would matter most to the collector/thrower.

A simple solution would be for the person who writes the weight in grams to add another # or code indicating a born-on date. ... An unthrown or newer disc is where this would matter most to the collector/thrower.



Except that all it would take would be a splash of acetone or goof-off and a pen to re-label them.

...how's 'bout a disc tatoo! :oOr an official sticker with the born-on date...! :eek:
Realizing that the Millenium 'run # on the hotstamp' idea solves all this...perhaps that is costly. I seem to recall that Millenium was always around $2 more/disc...though they did have that nice SE/KCish-like plastic. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Sorry 'bout the thread drift...

DAVE!! What's on the Innova horizon? New discs? New plastics?
Looking forward to TLs... :cool:

Circle 2, we are running a new disc right now, it will most likely be released in mid January or the beginning of February. It will fall between a Beast and a Starfire for performance and be available in lower weights than either the Beast or Starfire. It should be most useful for throwers who overpower the Beast.

COME ON!!! WE DON'T NEED ANOTHER DISC LIKE THAT! GIVE US THE TL!!!!!!!!!! :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

You can get TL's...just pony up the money for a CFR. :p

Circle 2, we are running a new disc right now, it will most likely be released in mid January or the beginning of February. It will fall between a Beast and a Starfire for performance and be available in lower weights than either the Beast or Starfire. It should be most useful for throwers who overpower the Beast.



Do you have a name for it yet?? I really love my Beast and my Starfire!!! :D

On another note. I am just courious and have wanted to ask for a while. How does Innova feel about people dyeing Innova plastic, you know people other than the infamous JBird? I am just courious.

We haven't submitted the disc for PDGA testing yet so no name released just yet. As for the dyed discs. Don't know how to answer that except I know we have two people doing the dying. The office handles that.

the first viking i had was extremely stable and i thought i had found the "missing link" as i like to call it. a disc between say a beast and a firebird in stability. alas i lost it and others had been much less stable. this is good news, i've always felt that there's a big gap there and have been perplexed as to why. there seems to be many discs with subtle differences in stability, but after starfire or beast or eagle for that matter, the jump to firebird seems extreme. i believe this disc-whatever it is-will be the "holy grail." good luck! :)

Try a Z-Talon. That is the perfect disc between a Teebird and Firebird.

Circle 2, we are running a new disc right now, it will most likely be released in mid January or the beginning of February. It will fall between a Beast and a Starfire for performance and be available in lower weights than either the Beast or Starfire. It should be most useful for throwers who overpower the Beast.



dave -

ok, ive been wondering about something for awhile. it seems like the rating system for discs when it comes down to certain cases isnt that informative. like you said between a beast and a starfire for performance, well how is that possible? according to the ratings for both of them, they are identical except for a .5 difference in high speed turn. so how could this new disc fall between those 2? plus, i own a champion beast and a champion starfire, and the starfire is WAY more overstable than the beast. so if theres that much of a difference, but they are almost identical in rating...do you see what im saying?

also, i used to have a champion firebird and a champion viking, which have identical fade and turn ratings, and the firebird was again, way more overstable than the viking.

i know there are differences between the discs, but sometimes there is absolutely no way to tell from the ratings. do you know what i mean about all this?


oh p.s. - i keep seeing aviar, and then "big bead" aviar, whats the difference?

Aviars - The beads.

There are 3 basic types of Aviars. Beadless, small bead and big bead. The bead is located on the underside of the disc along the inner part of the rim.
Beadless - there is no bead
Small Bead - bead is aprox. 3/32 of an inch wide - ex. regular DX Aviar
Big Bead - bead is aprox. 1/8 of an inch wide - ex. KC Aviar

Ryan, good question about the ratings. They are for comparison only. They try to get you in the hunt if you are familiar with other Innova products. As you can see, you can't tell all you need to know from the ratings. You have to throw the disc. If you get discs from a pro at a course, you might be able to test fly one. The difference between a big bead and a small bead Aviar is usually stability. Small bead being slightly unstable at high speed. The big beads used for JK Aviar and KC aviar are very stable at high speed.

which bead is the champion aviar?

Ummm....

The "small bead" is the Aviar P&amp;A. The "regular" DX Aviar, I believe, is a big bead as is the KC Aviar. The JK Aviar is that same big bead Aviar is the soft Rhyno putter plastic.

The new Champion Aviars are big beads, I think. Except for a few that snuck out in that first run of the new Champion ones. The original CE Aviars were the small beads.

dave,

could you also go into more detail about how the new disc is going to fall in between a beast and a starfire as far as performance? what aspect of performance?

The Champion as well as the Classic Aviar are big bead putter mold. Might as well be the small bead putter as far as performance goes. The Champion Aviar flies slightly unstable. The Classic flies very straight. The putter (P &amp; A) flies slightly unstable. Different plastics. The KC and JK are big bead from the old DX driver mold which is more stable at high speeds. Also different plastics.

Ryan, the new disc will have about the same speed and carry as a Beast, but be more resistant to turning at high speeds.

right on, do you have any ideas for names? i know you said you havent named it, but are there any ideas floating around? or are you not able to tell?

also, you said the kc and jk aviars are more high speed stable, and i know kc is harder plastic, so whats the difference between these 2 discs? what does the hard plastic do differently than the soft, and is that the only difference?

Ryan, we mostly have a name, but don't want to release it yet. Yes, the material is the difference between the JK and KC Aviar. The grip and release of the the two plastics is very different. The flight is very similar, as is the durability.

I now see Champion Edition Whippets :D
Are they out yet :cool:

yes, they are out on both coasts. should trickle into pro shops soon or already.

Matt

Candy Whippets are sweet! A little more overstable than a Firebird (maybe), less than a candy Viper. A very fun disc!
Thanks Santa ;)

Firebird vs Whippet
Which has more glide in present existing forms?

I would have to guess the Firebird. But it's a guess at this point.

Good guess, Dave. That was my guess, too. :cool:KL

How about if both Firebird and Whippet are equally well seasoned...?
The reason I ask, is that the Whippet has more dome...which I would think would add to glide...eventually. Of the few Whippets I've thrown, they were wicked overstable and a good thumber-type disc for 'shorter over the top' shots. But that was before the Firebird even came out.

circle 2, your logic is very reasonable vis a vis the dome. I don't know if seasoning would make a difference. I need to see them side by side in a toss test in various wind conditions to be sure of anything. I am familiar with the Firebird, but haven't thrown the new Champion Whippet much. If anyone else has done this, I would appreciate some feedback. Thanks.

The Whippet really doesn't glide at all. It is way too overstable to take advantage of the higher dome. As soon as it gets to the point of gliding, it is already falling to the left.
I'm not sure why it would matter though, anyone who is throwing a Whippet shouldn't care about the glide, that isn't a selling point of the disc, and it never was. We should be happy that there is an overstable disc with a small rim available in the Champion plastic other than the Banshee.

Accuracy is important. Down with the evil that comes in the form of wide rims!!!!!!

cool to see the whippet finnaly made it to CE. Can we expect a gator to be done, or at least considered, in this new found plastic once its finnaly gotten and being used? Some sort of KC or CE gator? And one more ? Is this disc currently being made as a less high speed flippy beast going to be flat or have a little dome?

Intensa T, the Gator is being considered for both types of plastic. Champion almost certainly. The new disc will have a dome similar to the Beast.

Hey Dave, has anyone seriously made an attempt at creating a disc throwing tool for flight testing purposes? I have never seen a machine that could duplicate the forward velocity and create the spin to achieve.

uhhhhh, flight. Darn interuptions.

The US Navy had a disc launching device about 20 years ago. Don't know how it worked though. I imagine a heavy duty skeet launching device would work. One problem is discs fly differently depending on nose angle and angle of release. Just because they fly well for a launcer doesn't mean they will fly well for a human. For example, our old Phenix would probably fly well for a launcher, and is still capable of breaking the world record, but is a very difficult disc to master and throw accurately. That is why we discontinued it. Personally, I am happy to have humans test them and decide if they want them in their bag.

Phoenix? I seem to recall seeing that on the website, and wondered why I hadnt seen one in person.

Hey Dave, What up with this Holiday Disc?

What kind of plastic is this stuff? It seems to have nice grip but is pretty flimsy...If it was only harder I might just throw it in my Bag..

Thanks for the Gift..anyway :D

Have a Great New Year....and dont wash away in those Floods :eek:

Hey Mike, it's regular Champion in a Stingray. You just have gorilla hands. :) Try rolling it.