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davei
May 13 2004, 08:50 PM
willie, the Pro Valks were test run, but havent been done yet. Not sure what the schedule is right now. I have wanted to run The TLS for a while now, not sure what is holding up the order from Millenium.

davei
May 13 2004, 08:52 PM
Mike, that was a color thing that the molders did without permission one night. They are supposed to use clear colors and decided to use opaque which we use for Pro. Night crew gets bored sometimes.

May 14 2004, 02:01 PM
Can I get some info on the 'TLS' ... I am big fan of the QJLS :D

dannyreeves
May 14 2004, 02:02 PM
From what I have heard, it is planned to be a TL in the Millenium plastic.

May 14 2004, 02:16 PM
Hmmm, sounds interesting.

magilla
May 18 2004, 01:53 PM
Mike, that was a color thing that the molders did without permission one night. They are supposed to use clear colors and decided to use opaque which we use for Pro. Night crew gets bored sometimes.



Oh Yea...well they sure do fly "Real Nice"...

Gave me a couple of "DownHill" putts on Hole 25 this past weekend :D

Ill have to keep those for myself ;)

davei
May 18 2004, 07:07 PM
Mike, I got a chance to test some of the opaque blue last weekend and they do fly very well. Might just be a freak thing or one of the many mysteries of injection molding. If you're coming to Golden State, I suggest you bring it. You can definitley use it on several holes. :D

May 18 2004, 09:49 PM
Dave,

I've recently started throwing DX Teebirds along with my distance discs (Pro Orcs, Starfires, CE Valks), and have been pleasantly surprised to discover that I'm consistently throwing them as far or farther than my Pro Orcs! [Note to self: stock up on DX Teebirds!]

With that in mind, I'm wondering whether you're planning to run the Orc in DX, or if you have tested or have plans to test a DX Orc?

jaymo
May 18 2004, 10:09 PM
You have pro Orcs, I want some pro orcs... :D

dannyreeves
May 18 2004, 10:18 PM
Dave, was there a change in the KC Rocs? I just got some and they have more dome, a little stiffer plastic, and no dimple. Was this intentional?

mf100forever
May 19 2004, 04:13 AM
Hi Dave,
Pro Birdie, Classic Roc and Shark is coming out soon I�ve read.
What�s plan for the next months, what will be the next releases? Pro Valks and Orcs?
Will there be a second run of the Super Roc, will it remain a fundraiser?

jaymo
May 19 2004, 05:09 AM
yeah what about those Pro Orcs... :D

I should jsut make this question my signature...

xterramatt
May 19 2004, 08:23 AM
we have pro sharks and birdies on the east coast now.

I really want to throw em. the pro birdie really feels great. And the Shark is begging to be thrown. Sharks are in colors, birdies are not. Classic Rocs should be coming in a week or 2.

davei
May 19 2004, 08:48 AM
felix, we have no plans for DX Orcs right now, but we are planning to continue the run of Pro Orcs when we have time.

davei
May 19 2004, 08:52 AM
Kid, the stiffer was intentional, the dimple is an irregular feature of molding. It comes and goes with that plastic. The domeyness is an artifact of the particular plastic batch and a couple of other factors. Personally, I think the sharper nosed Cucamongas need a little dome, but YMMV. You may have more than a little dome. That was not intended.

davei
May 19 2004, 08:56 AM
mf100, the Pro Roc will continue to be a fundraiser for the next worlds after Iowa in PA. The next release after the Classic Roc, will probably be the Orc.

May 19 2004, 09:49 AM
felix, we have no plans for DX Orcs right now, but we are planning to continue the run of Pro Orcs when we have time.


I wasn't really expecting DX Orcs, I guess I'm just curious whether or not an Orc in DX plastic would yield more distance than in Champion or Pro.

As I recall, Chris Standstrom and Ken Jarvis both were throwing DX when they set the distance record (Valkyrie and Teebird, I think). Granted, the usual disclaimers about wind, thermals, altitude, etc., it is, perhaps, instructive that two (and perhaps more) of the top distance throwers in the world throw DX.

mf100forever
May 19 2004, 10:19 AM
We have to wait some weeks until they arrive here in Europe.

davei
May 19 2004, 10:21 AM
Felix, the main reason they were throwing DX was grip. DX has a much more consistent and tacky grip than Candy. Your TeeBirds may be going farther because they suit your throwing style or grip. It may not be an inherent difference between candy and dx. The DX is sometimes more high speed stable than candy, (Beast), and may have a slightly higher or lower dome at times. Tough to make predictions on how it is going to work from model to model.

vwkeepontruckin
May 19 2004, 10:58 AM
we have pro sharks and birdies on the east coast now.

I really want to throw em. the pro birdie really feels great. And the Shark is begging to be thrown. Sharks are in colors, birdies are not. Classic Rocs should be coming in a week or 2.



Are you guys refering to the deep non-beveled Birdie featuring the thumb track thingy? In ProPlastic? I would have never guessed there was a demand for it! That was my first putter! Anyways, my dad absolutly hates Aviars/Wizards and almost every putter you could name. He putted with a ZPuttr just b/c it was flydyed. Then I gave him my old birdie, and hes been banging them home since! Hope I can get him a ProLine version for fathers day!!

dannyreeves
May 19 2004, 11:01 AM
Kid, the stiffer was intentional, the dimple is an irregular feature of molding. It comes and goes with that plastic. The domeyness is an artifact of the particular plastic batch and a couple of other factors. Personally, I think the sharper nosed Cucamongas need a little dome, but YMMV. You may have more than a little dome. That was not intended.



Dave, would you happen to know where I could find any KC Rocs from before that change? Any online vendors that may have them? If I ordered any KC Rocs from Zonedriven, would they be in the newer run of plastic?

davei
May 19 2004, 01:01 PM
I would imagine Zonedriven would have more than one type.

dannyreeves
May 19 2004, 01:07 PM
Okay. I will call and ask for the ones with less dome. Thanks, Dave.

May 19 2004, 02:47 PM
Felix, the main reason they were throwing DX was grip. DX has a much more consistent and tacky grip than Candy. Your TeeBirds may be going farther because they suit your throwing style or grip. It may not be an inherent difference between candy and dx. The DX is sometimes more high speed stable than candy, (Beast), and may have a slightly higher or lower dome at times. Tough to make predictions on how it is going to work from model to model.



What's curious is that I don't get anywhere near the same distance with CE, 10x KC, or Candy Teebirds as I do with my distance drivers. I've occasionally gotten long throws with Pro Teebirds, but for the most part my results are similar to what I see with CE or Candy.

Oh well, if you ever decide to do a test run of DX Orcs, I'll be happy to test them for you. :D

May 19 2004, 03:16 PM
Davie,

You were talking about Pro XD as a next step after Classic Roc. Is it still going to be available?

davei
May 19 2004, 05:47 PM
gelrod, we still plan on running Pro XDs after the Pro Classic Rocs.

May 19 2004, 11:05 PM
Dave I have to congradulate you on the 11x KC ROC. After throwing all sorts of Wasps for a while, I bought a 11x today, and it really does have superior feel to any other ROC/WASP out there!, IMO! I love the hardnes of this plastic! I know the current trend is plastics has been leaning towards the soft side, but please continue to make this great hard plastic!

Why won't you make the Teebird in this plastic? You would make ALOT of people really happy!

May 19 2004, 11:59 PM
Dave I'm sure you've been asked this 100 times but I'm wondering if there are plans to run a champion gator. I love the gator and would love to see it in champion plastic.

primetime
May 20 2004, 07:38 AM
Dave I'm sure you've been asked this 100 times but I'm wondering if there are plans to run a champion gator. I love the gator and would love to see it in champion plastic.



I 2nd the request. A Champion Gator would be sweet!! Make them in the old flat top, not the newer domed style.

PT Woods
# 20431

Znash
May 20 2004, 10:02 AM
It's amazing how many people like a hard flat disc over those soft domed disc that Innova keeps making.
I guess if you think your on top, you can do what ever you want to.

Would love it if all teebrids had the same flight paths (11x teebirds). If not call it something else not a teebird.

dannyreeves
May 20 2004, 12:37 PM
Dave, I was browsing Ebay and came across this (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=20851&item=3678839252&rd=1) auction. This guy claims that Innova is no longer printing 11x World Champion on the KC Rocs. Is that true?

atreau3
May 20 2004, 12:40 PM
Kid,

I've recently seen KC Rocs w/o the 11x on them...

Erick

dannyreeves
May 20 2004, 12:43 PM
yeah, I have seen them too. I just didn't know if that was going to be permanent or just a stamping mistake.

Cdale600
May 20 2004, 12:52 PM
I had one with no 11x on it till yesterday when it decided to leave me for the depths of the Johnson Road lake...

mf100forever
May 20 2004, 04:14 PM
Hi Dave,
question about the new Mill Ohmega AP, the plastic seems to be identical to the new Pro plastic, do you use the same ?

rob
May 20 2004, 06:01 PM
Hi Dave,
question about the new Mill Ohmega AP, the plastic seems to be identical to the new Pro plastic, do you use the same ?


It is the same. It's a small bead Aviar, and it's great!

davei
May 20 2004, 06:53 PM
Kid, I believe we just call it the KC Roc, but I am not sure about the rest of the stuff on the stamp. Basically, we got rid of the signiture on the Pro Stuff. We still give KC and JK a royalty, but we only use signitures on the Champion Line now. So long answer short. Yes, probably no more anything except KCs intitials.

davei
May 20 2004, 06:54 PM
Phil, I don't know if we will do Champion Gators, but Pro Gators are likely.

davei
May 20 2004, 06:56 PM
mf100, it is virtually the same plastic. There is a slight tweaking to get certain weights for certain models.

jaymo
May 20 2004, 08:20 PM
Dave can I suggest a Pro Cobra!! That'd be great I love the feel of the new pro plastic... So more mid-range discs would be a definite plus! :D

sandalbagger
May 20 2004, 08:59 PM
I 2nd that pro cobra idea. And dont forget about that run of pro line old mold hammers. Come on Dave, I know a few people dying to get some of those hammers. Please don't dissapoint. And id feel like a real jerk if they were never produced after telling all of my friends that you are going to make them.

hawkgammon
May 20 2004, 10:10 PM
Oh oh, the thread has turned into the begging for our favorite molds in a certain plastic theme again. :oDave, my two cents go to Pro Spiders and Pro Small Bead Aviar Putters. :DYes I'm as guilty as everyone else. :eek:

xterramatt
May 21 2004, 12:55 AM
Hawk, try a new Omega AP. You'll be mighty impressed. I can do anything with mine.It's aced, and almost aced again the other day. It's my favorite disc right now. Can't remember it anymore, but it's a lot like my old Q Omega, except it flies better. And I throw it for every shot now, driving to putting. the Q Omega was only really a driver.

primetime
May 21 2004, 07:30 AM
Phil, I don't know if we will do Champion Gators, but Pro Gators are likely.



Dave, maybe after you see how well the Pro Line Gators sell you might be convinced to make a Champion run. Also, would the Gators be the original flat tops or domey?

PT Woods
#20431

hawkgammon
May 21 2004, 01:40 PM
Matt,

I may give that a try. You're saying the flight is similar to the DX Aviar Putter I assume. You were driving with Qmegas? I find the Q/Champion plastic too soft to drive putters with. My Champion Aviars are among my shorter Aviars for distance. Curiously the DX Putters fly farther for me, or at least even with stiffer Aviars (KC etc.)

davei
May 21 2004, 10:13 PM
Primetime, there is only one mold. If there is any dome difference it would be due to molding and material used. The Pro material does tend to be a little more domey than the Candy.

williethekid
May 21 2004, 10:37 PM
pro firebird, perhaps an fl?

May 21 2004, 11:25 PM
dave, do you know what colors were made in the proto run of Jk aviars? all i've seen is blue and white and was curious if other colors exist. thanks

May 21 2004, 11:48 PM
yellow maybe? I've seen some canary yellow 4x's.

jaymo
May 24 2004, 12:41 AM
Hey Dave, are those Pro Orcs going to be ready for June?? what new discs are going to be around... :D

davei
May 24 2004, 07:31 AM
KC, I am not sure that blue was in the proto run, but if there were any other colors, besides blue, it would be yellow.

xterramatt
May 24 2004, 07:34 AM
I'm talking about the OLD Q Omegas, the ones that were more like the fabled CE Aviar.

the new Omega AP is not as understable at speed as a brand new P&A. It's probably more like the small bead classic aviar (though I've never thrown one).

good disc. feels great. Inspires confidence.

davei
May 24 2004, 07:34 AM
Jaymo, we are going to try to get the Pro Orc out by June. No new names are scheduled, but we will do other Pro models when we can.

tafe
May 24 2004, 09:25 AM
As someone that throws first run Q Omega's and putts with Classic Aviars, IMHO the AP is not even close. Just think small bead Pro Aviar. It's just a little too flimsy for me, and I would think under a clear mid-western sun it would turn to goo. But, that's for me. I'm happy with what I've got, my first Q Omega just keeps getting better, I might pull out a replacement in a few years! Glad to hear you like it Matt. BTW...what up?

20460chase
May 27 2004, 01:45 PM
Hello Mr Dave...been awhile...I havent seen Champion Gremlins yet and was wondering what happened? Also,I really like the Orc alot,thank you.Are you planning a Monster in DX or just in Pro? I still have Pro Line Monsters and would really love a DX. I smash my DX Beasts farther than any disc ive ever thrown and would love a DX monster. Any plans for stiffer DX Beasts,like the first run DX? The ones I got now have gotten softer in the middle and not as stiff.Were there any runs of DX Beasts in other plastics? I ask because the other week at Play it again Sports I found a used DX Beast that wasnt DX plastic.It was slick and smooth like SE,but firm like CE, Ive never seen one like it.When I gripped it my thumb felt like it was going to push through,and upon inspecting the bottom it was cracked like old leather.I believe that this disc spent a winter in a frozen creek.I didnt buy this disc then and now its gone.Any thoughts? BTW I called the CA. plant regarding some Firebird X-outs and spoke to Sam. I just wanted to say thanks again for him taking the time to answer every possible question I threw at him much like you do on here.Thanks again Innova.

rick_bays
May 27 2004, 03:58 PM
adam, the plastic for the second run on has been the same with minor variations. Each run of Valks is a new run of candy. There was however, a run of less stable Valks about two runs ago, and the original run, which was the only run out of the original straigh material that turned out to be too stiff. We may go back to straight material in the heavier weights as that same material is now a little softer from the manufacturer. Lower weights will still be softer as they are a blend of softer and lower weight material.




Many of us prefer softer plastic. :)

May 27 2004, 04:02 PM
dave. mid-rangers in champion slip plastic aren't doing it for me. but if you were to make some Gator discs in the kc line plastic(somewhere between a kc roc(stiff and durable) and the kc teebird(ken grippy jr.) i would have me a new upshot wind putter. thanks.

davei
May 28 2004, 03:42 PM
chase, the Champion Gremlins have been tabled for the time being unfortunately. No Monster in DX is planned at all at this time. Stiffer DX Beasts will be run from time to time, but not all the time. There have been some Pro Beasts run, it could have been one of them or a Champion version with a different opaque color. That happened with the Orc too.

veganray
May 28 2004, 04:30 PM
Dave,
Just got & threw 149 & 150g Champion Teebirds. So sweet; love that gummi plastic!!! Don't forget those of us who LOVE light plastic. (Hint, hint: 150g Champion Orcs pleee-eeea-se).

Cheers!

----------------
Vegan Ray

20460chase
May 28 2004, 04:44 PM
Thanks Dave--bummer about the Gremlins.The beast im talkin about was a DX.It was old.I thought 1st run DX Beasts came with a small Innova stamp,and the seconds had BEAST at the top with the Innova stamp under,and 3rd runs had the drawn stamp of the minitor.Is that correct?Thanks.

mf100forever
May 28 2004, 05:10 PM
Hi Dave,
Question; what have you manufactures used in the discs to get more weight. From the beginning it was phosporus, but after that? I�ve read about something that is called barium.... :confused:

May 28 2004, 09:34 PM
Hey Dave,

when do you think we might see 20th anniversary stamped Aviars and will they be P & A's, Champions, or ...?

davei
May 28 2004, 11:49 PM
Chase, I don't really know much about the hotstamping, sorry.

davei
May 28 2004, 11:53 PM
Kjell, there have been several weighting agents used such as Cacium Carbonate, Barium Sulfate, Phosphorescent pigment, and metal powders.

davei
May 28 2004, 11:55 PM
Rob, I havent seen any results from the artwork request I put in yet. I would like to do a special Candy Aviar in a mold we havent done yet. We havent made that decision yet.

May 29 2004, 12:39 AM
Dave a 20th anniversary Candy Aviar sounds great! I'd put one on my wall :D

20460chase
May 29 2004, 01:18 AM
not a problem Dave.Thanks anyway.

mf100forever
May 29 2004, 09:30 AM
Thanks Dave :D

May 29 2004, 06:57 PM
Dave-
Could you quickly explain when the I-dye Champion discs are made relative to when a new disc is released? Who dyes your discs?
thanks

mf100forever
May 30 2004, 04:20 PM
Hi Again Dave,
are there any 160gr Orc made? Want to use them for distance.

flynvegas
May 30 2004, 04:52 PM
I've got two in my bag 160g and 161g. I've seen some on eBay that were as light as 157g. Got mine from Frisbeerancher.

mf100forever
May 31 2004, 10:03 AM
Thanks Rob,
all the Orcs who reach Sweden seem to be 170+

davei
May 31 2004, 07:50 PM
Jack, no specific time is slated for I Dye of new discs. Two main people do the dying. J-Bird in Michigan and Scott Papa in Washinton.

20460chase
Jun 01 2004, 02:23 AM
hello Dave--Do you have any ideas about what you guys will be releasing for worlds?Anything special?Thanks

mf100forever
Jun 01 2004, 04:19 AM
Hi Dave,
what is this new disc Hydra, is it a midrange driver or what??? When will it come out? :D

davei
Jun 01 2004, 08:21 AM
Chase, if I can get it done in time, we might have a new disc, otherwise, the only thing might be Pro versions of discs we have now.
The new disc, if it comes out, will be a mid range.

davei
Jun 01 2004, 08:47 AM
mf100, the Hydra is a new mid range. It is already legal. They should be available already. Hydra is about 170 to 172 gms, floats in water, has pretty good glide, slight turning characteristic, a fairly high flyer, unlike the drivers, and grippy plastic. One weight, one type DX.

mikeP
Jun 01 2004, 11:37 AM
Dave, the Hydra sounds great. As more courses are including water in the play, it is a much needed specialty disc. It could put lightning out of business...

20460chase
Jun 01 2004, 01:12 PM
Thanks Dave.You goin?Be nice to meet you in person.Got a couple Qs for you...I picked up a couple of discs and was curious about them..a red DX T that has "one..one world..one moon..one sun...one universe..and so on designed by Thomas P. Christensen 1999 with a sun,moon,and earth drawing on it..know anything about it? The other is a Innova/Wham-O 91from '87,yellow w/ blue stamp..and my question is what kind of stamp is this? It feels like vinyl..Thanks again sir.

Jun 02 2004, 02:39 AM
It could put lightning out of business...

i honestly don't see how lightning has stayed in buisness the last few years, much less came out with new products. i only know about 2 people who throw any of that junk. back to the thread now; dave can you give any info on how the new disc your working on is expected to fly? also i heard that innova is looking at sponsoring Steve Rico, is there any truth to this? thanks again.

Jun 02 2004, 03:33 AM
Thanks Dave.You goin?Be nice to meet you in person.Got a couple Qs for you...I picked up a couple of discs and was curious about them..a red DX T that has "one..one world..one moon..one sun...one universe..and so on designed by Thomas P. Christensen 1999 with a sun,moon,and earth drawing on it..know anything about it? The other is a Innova/Wham-O 91from '87,yellow w/ blue stamp..and my question is what kind of stamp is this? It feels like vinyl..Thanks again sir.



That guy lives in my area and supplies discs to local stores. He's like a vulture, when a course pops-up he bum-rushes any local retailers and asks them to stock his plastic.

I'm almost positive that is just the stamp he designed, nothing special about the disc, just regular dx with different stamp. But I could be wrong

tafe
Jun 02 2004, 10:08 AM
You're correct. I have a big bead Aviar with that stamp, it's just another of Tom's stamps. My favorite is the "Play it again Sam" scene from Casablanca. At least with Tom, the local White Hen Pantry's can sell champ plastic.

davei
Jun 02 2004, 11:35 AM
Chase, yes I am going to the Worlds. I'd be glad to meet you. Have been to every one except 1984 when my son Taber was born. Sorry, I don't know anything about either stamp.

davei
Jun 02 2004, 11:45 AM
Paul, the new disc is aimed at replacing the Roc for me. Not quite the same, but the same niche. I have trouble switching from the larger rims, with the smaller diameter, to the smaller rims (like the Stingray, Cobra, and Roc) with larger diameters. Steve Rico has always had an option to be sponsored by us. We have always had a good relationship with Steve, his brother Bamba, and his dad JR too for that matter. His sponsorship by Discraft was a business decision, that I happened to agree with at the time.

20460chase
Jun 02 2004, 12:43 PM
Right on Dave........................................Thanks D-train and Tafe,I got mine used at a play it again sports..hadnt seen the stamp b4...they have Play it Again,Sam stamped discs at a Walgreens in Davenport,Ia.I have no idea how they made it there but they do appear to be older..

mikeP
Jun 04 2004, 02:25 PM
Dave,

I've noticed that often Champion plastic discs (Orc's in this scenario) have asymmetrical swirls in the plastic around the rims that almost look 3 dimensional, but cannot be felt on the plastic. What causes this? Is it where the plastic and the weighting agent are not completely mixed, or is it from the color dye? My second question then is, does this affect flight?

Jun 04 2004, 03:20 PM
when is this hydra supposed to be released to mankind.
it should have a huge stamp of aquaman on it lol :D
http://img26.photobucket.com/albums/v78/shadyone/Disc%20golf/aquaman.jpg

davei
Jun 06 2004, 10:40 PM
discspeed, the pearlescent effect is an optical property of the plastic used. It does not affect flight

davei
Jun 06 2004, 10:42 PM
Lee, as far as I know the Hydra has already been released. The only thing that could be holding it up is hotstamping.

Jun 06 2004, 11:05 PM
when is this hydra supposed to be released to mankind.
it should have a huge stamp of aquaman on it lol :D



Since the hydra is a creature of Greek mythology (see, e.g., the second of the twelve labors of Hercules), I suspect that the hotstamp will be more along the lines of this, (http://www.pantheon.org/areas/gallery/folklore/greek_heroic/hydra.html), unless Dave had the protozoan in mind, in which case it'll look like this (http://www.ivyhall.district96.k12.il.us/4th/kkhp/Microbes/hydra.html). :p

Jun 06 2004, 11:11 PM
Dave, I love reading your posts and keeping up with all the latest disc news. I just wanted to relay an interesting tidbit. Today at our local course, I was playing with 4 other guys (Tom Monroe was one of them) and this other older guy that has played off and on for a long time just for fun, not too competitively, had in his bag, an Innova Eagle from 1984, patent pending. He was actually using this disc as his approach. I told him he should be careful not to lose it as it might be a great collector's item. I have heard that a new one can be pretty valuable but this one was beaten to heck and back. If it was me, I would put it in a display case or something.

Do you have any advice for this guy that I can relay?

Also, I would love to hear sometime when you have the time the story on how you came up with that disc. You've been a major part of the evolution of this sport.

Best regards,

Doug - Birmingham, AL

Jun 07 2004, 03:17 AM
i'd also like to give Dave his well due thanks. If it weren't for Dave Dunipace we'd still be throwing whamos. there's nothing better than throwing rocs and aviars.:D

davei
Jun 07 2004, 07:02 AM
Thanks guys. Doug, as for the original Eagle... As a collector disc, it probably has to be in good shape, but I am not an expert in collecting. The original Eagle mold was only around for 1 month and two short runs of 3000 speckled orange, and 7000 in a four color weight coded run. It was retooled into the Aero, which was the original design. The tool and die maker screwed up twice to produce the Eagle. Third time produced the Aero.

mikeP
Jun 07 2004, 04:44 PM
Dave,

Speaking of a floating disc, I found a weird disc this weekend. It is called a Hammer Head and is "Guaranteed Unbreakable" and "Floats in Water". Was this a regular production disc? What's the story behind it? Thanks again Dave.

jaymo
Jun 07 2004, 05:34 PM
I have found that this website (http://www.texramp.net/~dbell/discgolf/dgdiscs.html) (if you scroll down) has some good, however brief descriptions of "older" discs... the Hammerhead is one of them... cheers :D

Jun 08 2004, 04:21 PM
I was just curious and thought I would ask :

Does anyone have any idea where to see a list of Innova discs in chronological order of when they came out? I was just wondering what the first ones were, to see the trend in the evolution of discs.

Dave, maybe you could tell us the first ten or so Innova discs as you remember them.

I would guess these might be the first ones :

1. Eagle

2. Aero

3. Aviar

4. Stingray ?

5. Phenix ?

I thought it would be fun to see.

Thanks,

Doug

flynvegas
Jun 08 2004, 04:39 PM
Dave, maybe you could tell us the first ten or so Innova discs as you remember them.

I would guess these might be the first ones :

1. Eagle

2. Aero

3. Aviar

4. Stingray ?

5. Phenix ?

I thought it would be fun to see.

Thanks,

Doug


I'll give this a shot.

1. Eagle
2. Aero
3. Aviar
4. XD
5. Coupe
6. Ace
7. Roc
8. Hammer
9. Phenix
10. Stingray

This should be close.

rhett
Jun 08 2004, 04:40 PM
Roc was #8.

quickdisc
Jun 08 2004, 05:06 PM
Roc was #8.


That's right. The original Roc or classic roc was next.
The Coupe was like a Indestructable Aviar with a shallower rim.

quickdisc
Jun 08 2004, 05:12 PM
Roc was #8.


That's right. The original Roc or classic roc was next.
The Coupe was like a Indestructable Aviar with a shallower rim.



The Ace was either a Roc or XD with a trimed down lip.
The Hammer was the same shallow rim disc with a bead.

20460chase
Jun 09 2004, 01:28 PM
Hello Dave.....I had a question about '04 glo rocs,actually 2.First how do I get a X out of premium plastic and 2 how many of the Shultz/Climo rocs are out there?I played with Ed Burde yesterday and he had a X out, and said he thought the only defect was it wasnt numberd..so by chance do you knoe how many are out there?thank you sir.

davei
Jun 09 2004, 03:44 PM
discspeed the Hammerhead was a regular production disc for a short while. It was too hard to produce so we dumped it. I was a good roller disc for a quick flippin 400 ft roller. Kind of squirley in the air if you had any distance, but wasnt bad for low speed throwers.

davei
Jun 09 2004, 03:53 PM
The golf discs posted are about right, but there were two discs missing in chronological order. Roc is #8. Eagle, Aero, Aviar, XD, Apple, (Large catch type disc), Coupe, Mini, classic Roc, Classic Hammer, Ace, Stingray, big Roc, Cobra, big Hammer. This is close, if not exact.

neonnoodle
Jun 09 2004, 04:17 PM
Dave,

If you have any old hammers laying around that you can sell me I'll promise never to say a bad word about INNOVA again.

<<This is special code that Dave can't see, but you can. I never have actually said anything bad about INNOVA, but that will be our little secret.>>

And I wouldn't be getting them to sell, I still putt and approach with those bad boys. If ever there came a time that I wouldn't use them, I'd send them back to INNOVA.

Any word on making a worthy predessor to the RAM? I'd love to see what one of those led bellies would be like in Champ Plastic!

davei
Jun 09 2004, 04:36 PM
chase, you have to talk to Innova East for that info. They stamp those discs.

Jun 09 2004, 04:38 PM
Thanks Dave, that's amazing that of the discs that you named, the first discs you ever came out with, 5 that I counted are still in wide use today. I use an Aviar, Roc and a Cobra on a regular basis.

The general consenus I think is that the Aviar is the best golf disc ever made. The Roc is probably close to it.

Keep it up,

Doug

jaymo
Jun 09 2004, 05:27 PM
I count 7 still in production...

Jun 09 2004, 09:48 PM
Aero, Aviar, XD, Mini, classic Roc, Stingray, Cobra
Is the mini THE mini that is still in production?

xterramatt
Jun 09 2004, 10:55 PM
no it is not.

it was a new mold (actually two) introduced last year around September.

Jun 10 2004, 12:42 AM
First how do I get a X out of premium plastic and 2 how many of the Shultz/Climo rocs are out there?I played with Ed Burde yesterday and he had a X out, and said he thought the only defect was it wasnt numberd..so by chance do you knoe how many are out there?thank you sir.

The only 2004 CE Roc X-outs that were offered for sale were Glo. (There may be other, non-Glo X-outs out there, but they weren't part of the batch put up for sale,)

X-outs are long gone. I ordered a stack literally the minute they became available. (My call got put through to Jonathan just as he was getting back from the meeting where they set the pricing. As I recall, he mentioned there were around 200 X-outs.) Got them 2 days later and called to order more, but they were all gone by then.


I played with Ed Burde yesterday and he had a X out, and said he thought the only defect was it wasnt numberd..

None of the X-outs I've got or have seen are numbered. Most of the defects are very minor: imperfect hotstamps, very minor indentation in the rim, air bubbles in the rim, a dimple or nipple in the center of the flight plate, etc.

Jun 10 2004, 12:46 AM
Aero, Aviar, XD, Mini, classic Roc, Stingray, Cobra

Don't you mean, Aero, Aviar, XD, Classic Roc, Stingray, Roc, Cobra?

jaymo
Jun 10 2004, 12:54 AM
yeah well, those are the ones I meant... :D

Jun 10 2004, 01:53 AM
I wasn't sure the "big roc" was todays "roc" as everyone knows it

jaymo
Jun 10 2004, 02:19 AM
So Dave, where's the Pro Orc... has there been any news??? you guys aren't making it into a fundraiser disc are you?!?!?!?! :mad:

ohhh well thanks for replying to all my previous posts, and I am sure you will reply to this one.

davei
Jun 10 2004, 08:48 AM
jaymo, the Pro Orc has been run in some limited quantities for now, but they should be available soon.

jaymo
Jun 10 2004, 03:56 PM
sweet, thanks dave

jaymo
Jun 10 2004, 05:37 PM
Dave, we're having a discussion in the "what happened to the shark" post... and I was wondering if the Champion/Pro/Dx versions of the Shark differ greatly?? some people say the old CE sharks were really overstable... so do you have any input on this, considering your word is gospel in the disc golf world?

thanks in advance :D

Jun 10 2004, 07:34 PM
There was no CE Shark made. The Champion shark is most overstable. The DX Shark is the straightest. The Pro falls between.

Blarg
Jun 10 2004, 07:57 PM
Hi Dave,
I just resurrected an Innova disc that I'd left at home for awhile because I couldn't throw it yet. It says Innova on it and is DX plastic and weighs 150g. I guess I bought it in October of this year, roughly. That's all it says on it. Innova in white on a sort of orange disc. The guy who sold it to me (Mike Williams) said it was a dx Beast. I now find with my current throwing ability that the thing flies great for me now, so I decided to buy some more. I bought another dx Beast and it has the bull-headed guy (Minotaur?) on it. 150g.
The problem is the newer disc IS A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT MOLD!
Much wider rim and a bit less dome. Totally different feel and WAAAY more overstable. The plastic also seems slightly more durable.
My question is, what happened to the original mold dx Beasts? Are there different Beast molds, or perhaps the older disc isn't a Beast at all???
:confused: :confused: :p :confused:

circle_2
Jun 10 2004, 08:26 PM
Sounds like you might have had a Leopard, or some other slower-than-a-Beast disc...Cheetah, Gazelle? Just a guess...

Jun 10 2004, 09:20 PM
That's all it says on it. Innova in white on a sort of orange disc. The guy who sold it to me (Mike Williams) said it was a dx Beast.

Blarg, there were two hotstamps preceding the Minotaur stamp: the first run of Beasts in general release (non-proto) had the "Innova Disc Golf" Swoosh stamp; the second stamp had "Beast Distance Driver" and the Innova Swoosh, with the word "Beast" spelled out using animal glyphs.

It sounds to me like the disc you have is not a Beast. I have several discs with each of the hotstamps, and their rim widths are identical. You might want to compare your mystery disc to a Valkyrie, Archangel, Leopard, Cheetah, and Gazelle.

Jun 11 2004, 02:32 AM
i am guessing archangel it is /msgboard/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

jaymo
Jun 11 2004, 02:55 AM
then how come everyone says CE??? have people still not adjusted to leaving out the "edition" on the end??? is it that hard. That little "edition" makes it really confusing for us newbies... :D

Blarg
Jun 11 2004, 04:02 AM
You may be right about the Archangel. I've been comparing it to all my discs with no luck, but my only Archangel is sorta melted due to one of my primitive attempts at disk design.
I'll check back at the pro shop next time I'm down at La Mirada.
Thanks! :)

20460chase
Jun 11 2004, 11:37 AM
Thanks Dave.............Thanks Fore

veganray
Jun 11 2004, 11:52 AM
I read on Innova SC's "Inventory at a glance" website this morning that the Gremlin is discontinued! My bread & butter midrange go-to disc! Say it ain't so, Dave.

Jake L
Jun 11 2004, 12:08 PM
Hello Dave,
1 question, Pro Roc? Love that grippy plastic, like the Super Roc, Pro Teebird, ...... And I can't get enough Rocs in my stash, First step is admitting I have a problem!

Thank you

Jake

davei
Jun 11 2004, 04:22 PM
Jaymo, the CE Sharks or first candy run were overstable. The Sharks in general have been a little more stable than they used to be but the Candy ones were noticably overstable.

davei
Jun 11 2004, 04:25 PM
Blarg, only one Beast mold. Doesnt sound like you had a Beast in the first place as the rim is as wide as there is for us. It hasnt changed.

davei
Jun 11 2004, 04:27 PM
sorry Ray, its been shelved for now. Production and space limitations we are working on right now. Maybe in the future.

davei
Jun 11 2004, 04:29 PM
Jake, not sure what the question is. But, Pro Rocks have been selling and the proceeds going to the PDGA Worlds. Zone Driven is one site selling them.

Jake L
Jun 11 2004, 04:42 PM
Thank you for responding Dave,
I thought the Super Roc was a different mold than the "regular" Dx mold Roc.

dannyreeves
Jun 11 2004, 04:49 PM
nope

Jun 12 2004, 01:32 PM
Dave,

I seen the Pro series expanding and I have heard about pro XD. Is it done yet?

discchucker
Jun 12 2004, 02:17 PM
Dave:

No more DX Gremlins???? Say it isn't so Dave...

davei
Jun 12 2004, 10:33 PM
Geirod, no not yet. Production schedule got very crowded. Probably several months now unfortunately.

davei
Jun 12 2004, 10:34 PM
discchucker, sorry, it has been shelved for now.

Blarg
Jun 14 2004, 03:49 AM
Davei:
I think you're correct. It has been suggested that my magic disc is a 150 class dx Archangel. I guess Mike was wrong.
I'll check it out next time I get down to La Mirada.

20460chase
Jun 14 2004, 04:07 PM
Hi Dave --What can you or anyone else tell me about the new Champion Whippets?Are they really only run to 4500?I seem to see lots around.thanks again

colin-evans
Jun 14 2004, 05:02 PM
Dave,

When the pro TB came out you said the next version would be a little more overstable. Has that new more overstable version been run yet.
Lov me some pro plastic

discchucker
Jun 14 2004, 05:57 PM
I can't tell you about the numbers run...but I love my new champion whippet. I think it is more overstable than my 10x Whippet-X that I have.

jaymo
Jun 14 2004, 06:04 PM
Dave, love the Pro Shark.... I love this new plastic.... Where's the Orc!!!! I can't wait for that... cheers :D

davei
Jun 15 2004, 08:26 AM
Chase, I don't know much about the Champion Whippets. They were a special run in that we will only run them when we can. If you are asking about the total quantity; I wouldnt be surprised if the number you have is correct. 4500 would be about right.

davei
Jun 15 2004, 08:30 AM
bandsagger, no, the second run has not been done as yet. We are currently running Champion TeeBirds. If we need them, they will run next.

davei
Jun 15 2004, 08:33 AM
jaymo, the Pro Orc has been done in limited quantities. Don't know where it is in distribution at this time. So far, testing indicates it is not as stable as the Champion, but appears to have a little more glide.

20460chase
Jun 15 2004, 11:56 AM
Okay Dave thanks......what about a Pro Gremlin? any chance?

jaymo
Jun 16 2004, 12:48 AM
Thanks Dave. Now by limited run, how many are we talking here? and how much less stable? like Dx Beast stable?? I guess you probably havent thrown them, so you won't know... :D

Does anyone know where I can get a Pro Orc??? Does anyone know where they are being distributed?? :confused:

davei
Jun 16 2004, 08:37 AM
Chase, not in the near future.

davei
Jun 16 2004, 08:47 AM
jaymo, it was a very limited run for now. Not sure exactly how many, but about 5000.

Jun 16 2004, 08:51 AM
Dave, I have a <font color="red">RED </font> gummy 163 orc from the BG open. Were there a lot of these made?
Thanks,
J.M.Inc

Chris Hysell
Jun 16 2004, 09:37 AM
I'm sure there were. If you would leave NC once in a while, you may see some more. There was a stack of them at the Grange and my discuriosity got the best of me. I fondled the whole stack. For a second there, I almost lost my special powers.

Jun 16 2004, 09:59 AM
Thanks DAVE....

davei
Jun 16 2004, 10:54 AM
J M, there were probably not too many, if you are talking about red Pro Orcs.

Jun 16 2004, 11:36 AM
no,
this is a gummy champion orc..

Thanks,
J.MInc

20460chase
Jun 16 2004, 12:48 PM
Thanks Dave.Y'know your killin me with the Gremlin.Got a Hydra this weekend,plan to use it today.Are all the Hydras 170?

Jun 16 2004, 01:53 PM
Thanks Dave.Y'know your killin me with the Gremlin.Got a Hydra this weekend,plan to use it today.Are all the Hydras 170?



WHOA!! Theres a Hydra now?! About 6 months ago I said Innova should make a disc called the Hydra, and low and behold, THERE IT IS!!

Where's my royalty?

davei
Jun 16 2004, 04:03 PM
chase, yes the Hydras are all about 170 and float in water. The range of weights is about 168 to 173 gms, but all are sold as the 170 average.

jaymo
Jun 16 2004, 07:22 PM
Dave, Thanks once again for all the info... just one more question... Do you have any idea where the Pro Orcs are being distributed... I live in Vancouver BC... and it's hard to get discs up here... should I contact James Brown?? He's the man around here...

thanks

20460chase
Jun 16 2004, 08:15 PM
Thanks Dave...the only water we have is a really fast creek......wave goodbye to the Hydra............

Jun 16 2004, 10:37 PM
Execuse the ignorance, but where can I buy one of these hydra's at?

davei
Jun 17 2004, 08:22 AM
jaymo, sorry I dont know. I suggest you ask the question in general here on the discussion board. I would think someone will know.

davei
Jun 17 2004, 08:24 AM
The Hydra has just been released, so I would imagine the first place would be Zone Driven on the East Coast. After that, I dont know.

williethekid
Jun 17 2004, 11:47 PM
I know this is technically ask dave d, but id rather thank dave d for releasing the tl in pro plastic, personally ima pick uip as many as i can, and I cant express my appreciation for their arrival. Also I thought they were coming out as the TLS, and finally any chance of a dx tl?

drdisc
Jun 18 2004, 12:29 AM
The new Hydra's have just arrived at discgolfwarehouse.com.
They seem to be very Roc/Shark like in initial flights. Feels like the Dragon plastic.

davei
Jun 18 2004, 08:57 AM
willie, thank you. I was offering it to Millennium as I think it is a great disc. They (he) didn't want it for some reasaon, so we (Innova) are going to produce it. As an Innova disc, the name is Teebird L or TL, and if it had been a Millennium disc, it would have been TLS. There may be a chance for DX TL at some point in time, but not in the near term.

atreau3
Jun 18 2004, 10:40 AM
Dave:

When do you think the Pro TL is going to be out? I just bought some of the Sundown Ninja Pro TL's, and was going to throw them, but if there is a production run coming, i'll keep them for collecting...(i'd rather throw a $11 disc as opposed to a $25 disc for sure!!!)

Thanks Dave!

Erick

davei
Jun 18 2004, 12:55 PM
Atreau, I am not sure when the release is for regular stock. The run was completed at least a week ago. The marketing guys have it now. My preference is to release it right away, but they often have other ideas. Right now, they want to delay it for a few weeks to make other things run smoothly. Sorry.

20460chase
Jun 21 2004, 02:18 AM
Hi Dave...I got a Avair,beadless in KC plastic with no stamp{imaging defect disc} and was curious what the deal with it is..were there beadless KCs a while back? The only disc this compares with is a DX small bead,but in KC plastic?

davei
Jun 21 2004, 07:48 AM
chase, if it is something we have made recently, it is probably a Classic "Stiffy". KCs are more overstable and have big beads in a driver mold.

Jun 21 2004, 11:35 AM
Dave, has the new pro plastic been molded in 150 class?

20460chase
Jun 21 2004, 12:43 PM
Thank you Dave.

davei
Jun 21 2004, 12:43 PM
flyn, yes, in some models. It's much easier to mold 150 in Pro than candy.

primetime
Jun 22 2004, 07:33 AM
Dave, Why doesn't Innova make the Champion Putters in the same gummy plastic as the Pro Line Spider? It's amazing how many people I've seen putt with PL Spiders. To me the CH Putters are to slick. The best new putter I've seen lately is the Pro Line Rhyno. I've hit the side of the chains numerous times and it sticks a lot better than my old SE Rhynos. I'd like to see more putters with the same grip.

My .02 :)

PT Woods
# 20431

davei
Jun 22 2004, 08:20 AM
Primetime, we would if we could. It takes a slightly different plastic with Aviars. Also, there were two different runs of Ch Aviars. One was slick and one was fairly grippy.

20460chase
Jun 22 2004, 12:12 PM
Dave ..speaking of the champion avairs how many beadless Avairs got out?Is it true those were Q-megas that were wrongly stamped?I have one that is blue {174} and a friend has three more blues,beadless, but the only others I have seen have been pink in the 166-168 range.Any Info?

davei
Jun 22 2004, 01:43 PM
It could have been misstamps, or it could have been a previous proto run of Ch. Aviar Putters. No idea on numbers.

spartan
Jun 22 2004, 01:58 PM
Post deleted by MARTIN_T_18372

jasonc
Jun 22 2004, 02:08 PM
You did start early didn't you :D You might want to ask the guy that makes DISCRAFT that

LouMoreno
Jun 22 2004, 02:20 PM
http://www.lastortugasvilla.com/views/donkey.jpg

Jun 22 2004, 02:26 PM
Well a UV MRV would be pretty sweet, but whats wrong with the Pro D MRVector?

Back to Innova...What's next in drivers? I think the Orc/Flash are the maximum in wide rimmed driver technology. What directon do we go now?

Jun 23 2004, 02:56 AM
Dave, I was checking the highest rated rounds thread, and your 1061 round is pretty impressive for any age, let alone for someone over 50. You were completely disc golf healthy at the time, right? (!)

Dunipace Dave [score:] 41 [date:] 3/9/2002 [rating:] 1061 [course:] El Dorado Long-B [tournament:] 2002 El Dorado Open

Jun 23 2004, 03:54 AM
discs with built-in liquid oxygen propulsion systems.. ?

davei
Jun 23 2004, 08:08 AM
robj, no I wasn't. No sidearms at the time. My backhand was working well and I was putting well that day. Usually, I give away 3 or more short putts a round. Thanks.

colin-evans
Jun 23 2004, 11:28 AM
Usually, I give away 3 or more short putts a round. Thanks.

by short you mean 40' ers right.

ce

Jun 23 2004, 02:21 PM
Dave, I hope you can compete in an MTA event this year because you could set the record for your age bracket -- hopefully without even having to run very much at all.

Men (55 and older): 12.13 s John Kirkland (USA) 7/9/03 Santa Cruz, CA

http://www.wfdf.org/records/index.htm#mta

So you shot a 1061 round as a Grandmaster who was injured. That is scary good!

Jun 24 2004, 12:12 AM
correction: despite being a Grandmasters eligible player who was not 100% healthy, you shot a 1061 rated round.

Jun 24 2004, 03:16 AM
The beadless Champ aviars came out with the first Champ Aviars. I got them all at the same time in the first shipment. I spoke to someone at Innova east (they stamp them at Innova east) and they verified that they were stamped incorrectly. they should have been stamped Q-mega's Not sure how many got out but they came in a variety of colors and weights. This was also about the same time the white DX Rocs were stamped incorrectly with the KC stamp. Wish I
could get my hands on a few of those! I understand the ones that were discovered b4 being shipped out to retailers have been sent back to Innova west? Dave, you know anything about them? What a nice collectable! I'd give more than a buck for one!

Dave, can you tell me the difference between the regular Champion Teebird TL plastic vs Champion Teebird TL glow plastic? The glows seem to have flatter tops. I have not thrown the glow and wonder if they are more stable? What about durablity? Thanks for all your insight!

davei
Jun 24 2004, 04:27 PM
scoob, thanks for the info on the ch. Aviars. We still may have some of those misstamped rocs. There were around 1000 of them. The only difference that I can think of between the TLs in champion and glow is the pigment. The pigment does act like a filler and will make the density greater such that they may be a little more stable, and they might be slightly less durable as the pigment is an adulterant too, but this is all hypothetical. I don't know what happened in the real world situation.

mikeP
Jun 24 2004, 05:06 PM
Dave,

I noticed recently that my CFR Viper is larger diameter and looks to be a different mold altogether than the dx Vipers that I've seen. What's the story?

Jun 24 2004, 05:17 PM
The story is champion plastic. It changes everything.

mikeP
Jun 24 2004, 06:50 PM
The plastic still starts as liquid and fills into the mold...The CFR is as much bigger than the dx as a Roc is compared to a classic Roc. It is definetely a different mold. I think it might the original Viper mold, whereas the newer dx Vipers are a different mold. This is why I'm asking Dave...

Jun 25 2004, 04:28 AM
Dave

Any chance you would do something like fly by night discs by cutting a groove on the inside the rim of the disc so you can snap a glow stick/necklace in it? You can play glow disc at night, with no moon, in the woods, without having to recharge the disc for 8 hours. I don't think the guy has a patent on it. I can only imagine throwing a clear champion disc like this! We could play disc anytime of the day or night! Not sure how the molding process works but maybe you could mold them this way? The Fly By Nights look like they are cut. Am I the only one who thinks about being able to playing disc 24/7?

davei
Jun 25 2004, 08:10 AM
discspeed, it's probably due to differing shrink rates of the two plastics. The mold was the same for the last run of DX and Candy.

davei
Jun 25 2004, 08:13 AM
discspeed, the VX mold is the same diameter, as the original.

davei
Jun 25 2004, 08:16 AM
scoob, we have no plans for that as of now. We are having a hard time dealing with the discs we have now. Once we get things arranged properly in a different building, we might be able to think about projects like that.

mf100forever
Jun 25 2004, 12:54 PM
Hi Dave,
is there a chance that you will make any of the large diameter disc in Champion plastic in a near future, like the Zephyr or Jaguar..... ?
:D

davei
Jun 25 2004, 01:54 PM
kjell, I wouldnt think we would do anything like that in the near future, but I wouldn't rule it out as a one time thing later on. A Zephyr would be very heavy in Candy, possible over 200gms. A Jaguar might make it under the 200gm ceiling.

tbender
Jun 25 2004, 03:10 PM
Plus, it would take about 30 to exhaust the Candy plastic supply..... ;)

flynvegas
Jun 25 2004, 04:17 PM
Dave,
Are you moving to a different city, or just a new building? Tax's are low in Vegas, would love to have you. No wild fires here either.

davei
Jun 25 2004, 04:49 PM
flynvegas, just a different (bigger) building in the same complex. I would love to have the tax structure of Nevada or even Arizona, but roots (family) go too deep. We are stuck in the tax slime of California. :)

jmo
Jun 26 2004, 12:52 AM
CANDY 86?

CANDY Gremlins again? why not ?

Jun 26 2004, 02:21 AM
Hey Dave,

I was MTA'ing today (w/ MTA-weight Condors) and have a question for you. Do you find the best back door times generally are caught to the right from where you release or to the right *and* behind you? What I am trying to figure out is if it is better to throw with a trajectory more straight up (catch is behind and to the right) or up and out (catch is usually to the right side for RHBH) -- or does it really just depend a lot on catching a good breeze with the right throw? Any comments will be appreciated.

davei
Jun 28 2004, 08:47 AM
robj, backdoor MTA can be done several ways, so I can't really answer your question. I personally throw at around 10 to11 o'clock, and my best throws either land in front and to the right of me, or spiral down in a circle. My 14 sec+ time (Classic Roc) was a spiral shot. With a Condor or Lynx, I was able to throw 10 sec+ without moving much at all. With a disc like the Condor, you need to find the domiest possible. Flight characteristic is less important than float.

Jun 28 2004, 01:42 PM
Thanks Dave. I'll keep experimenting. I'm still trying to find 13 seconds -- and Condors seem to work best for me. If you ever re-make the Classic Roc at MTA weight, please let me know.

xterramatt
Jun 28 2004, 09:17 PM
has anyone videotaped an MTA contest? I haven't been to one, and would love to learn the secrets of throwing for them. Never play much with the MTA discs. Wonder what a superlight Shark would do if used... they are floaty discs.

Jun 29 2004, 01:44 AM
The 139g Condors work well (or are they 129g?), they penetrate wind nicely going up, and then they float fairly well from the apex down. With their rounded edge they are fairly easy to legally catch too (one handed catch required for MTA). According to Dave, the super light (103g) Classic Rocs are difficult to throw but have the best potential to break the MTA world record. unfortunately however they are no longer made :(

MTA is an incredible blast when you get two or more people with stopwatches out there in a decent wind.

davei
Jun 29 2004, 08:17 AM
Matt, a superlight Shark will work well if you know how to throw it. It needs to weigh around 112 gms or less.

flynvegas
Jun 29 2004, 10:54 AM
Dave,
What's the advantage of using say a Condor, Roc, Lynx, over an old Whamo FB? When I was doing MTA I used a FB15, think that was the mold number. It was brown with the Coppertone girl stamp. Thx

veganray
Jun 29 2004, 12:06 PM
I had been practicing w/ Condors all spring & was dialed in for 12.5+ seconds under normal conditions. Went to VA States with a reasonable expectation of qualifying for semis or even finals. But... TD wouldn't let me use my discs. "Fastbacks only" is Laszlo's MTA policy. Needless to say, my confidence was shot & I got the big old NO CATCH.

Jun 29 2004, 01:05 PM
flynvegas, I haven't been MTA'ing that long, but I would say that the problem with a Fastback is it is far more fickle than a Condor or Lynx, especially if there is a lot of wind. Plus, I think the Condor is a better MTA disc. A Fastback might have an advantage in no wind conditions...

Dave, how possible is it to find a Shark at only 112g? Do discs like the Shark and Classic Roc sometimes get made that light and it is just a matter of trying to find them -- or are batches made at those light weights?

Jun 29 2004, 01:12 PM
I had been practicing w/ Condors all spring & was dialed in for 12.5+ seconds under normal conditions. Went to VA States with a reasonable expectation of qualifying for semis or even finals. But... TD wouldn't let me use my discs. "Fastbacks only" is Laszlo's MTA policy. Needless to say, my confidence was shot & I got the big old NO CATCH.



I wonder if Whamo was a sponsor and they insisted on th FB only rule? I don't know why a TD would care -- if he felt he was using the best MTA disc available why worry what other people use?

do you know what kind of time ended up winning? what were wind conditions like? (sorry Dave, I am not trying to hijack your thread, but I do love MTA talk :D)

peter_h
Jun 29 2004, 01:25 PM
Wow, this suddenly turned into a MTA thread. Now that was a bit unexpected... :D

I would say that a premium Lynx or Condor will be safer to get you to say around 9-11s, with a good chance on 12-13s if you're good at it. But a Fastback (molds FB6 and FB3 are generally considered to be the best flyers) will probably give you a better chance at the monster times up in the 14-16s range. Especially in low/no wind situations. I personally always use a premium Lynx unless there is almost no wind at all. A Fastback is hard to handle in heavy winds.

For those unfamiliar with the Self Caught Flight events MTA and TRC, I've written a basic tutorial in the area46 flying disc academy. area46...the frisbee/flying disc zone (http://hem.bredband.net/area46/) check "scf" under "disc academy"

mikeP
Jun 29 2004, 05:56 PM
Dave, have you guys ever considered running the floating plastic in different molds? Water seems to be popping up on more courses these days and a floating all-purpose type disc would be really helpful.



I doubt that this post of mine on 4/20/04 had any influence on the development of the Hydra, but I can tell my friends it did, can't I? :D Anyway, thanks for the Hydra, it is great and exactly what I have been looking for.

flynvegas
Jun 29 2004, 06:42 PM
Can you give flight description? Thx

mikeP
Jun 29 2004, 07:06 PM
The Hydra is a small diameter disc that has a very spider-like top with a bottom that looks like a bit like a Shark, except without the straight part at the very bottom, or a completely beadless Roc, only the wing is less rounded and more angular. It flies a lot like a spider, but is less stable. It floats in the air a bit more than the spider too and is a little slower as well it seems.

davei
Jun 30 2004, 08:50 AM
flyn, mainly the advantage is consistent penetration. For record times, the fastback is still as good as it ever was, it is just harder to get consistent high times. A real good thrower will get consistent 9 seconds with the fastback and 10 sec with a Lynx (Condor) or Roc.

veganray
Jun 30 2004, 09:37 AM
I wonder if Whamo was a sponsor and they insisted on th FB only rule? I don't know why a TD would care -- if he felt he was using the best MTA disc available why worry what other people use?

do you know what kind of time ended up winning? what were wind conditions like?



VA States is not a corporate-sponsored event, but the powers that be are so old school that "modern" SCF discs are disallowed. (I even got a couple of negative ractions for installing permanent baskets at the course over the last 2 years.) I don't remember specifically (it was in April), but I think the best toss was 13.5-ish. Wind was light, but steady.

davei
Jun 30 2004, 09:57 AM
Robj, superlight Sharks do happen, but they are rare. It would be a fluke to come up with one. On the other hand, we do make superlight MTA Rocs (big mold) all the time.

Jun 30 2004, 01:48 PM
Dave

What weights are you talking about when you say super light Rocs are made all the time? Lighter than 150? If so how do I get any? The lightest ones I see are 150 class.

davei
Jun 30 2004, 02:54 PM
scoob, I believe the MTA Rocs are about 113 gms. Discovering the World or Wrightlife mail order houses carry them I believe.

Jun 30 2004, 03:01 PM
Dave, I have thrown an MTA Roc -- it pentetrated wind nicely though the edge was a little sharp for the catch on throws that didn't float down. I think I like the Condor better. However, an MTA weight Classic Roc would be something I'd love to see available again, given the potential it has (though I guess it is difficult to throw). Were many under 110 grams made, and when did you stop making them? When you compete in MTA do you use a Classic Roc for light winds and a Condor for strong? Or do you get a good time in with a Condor and then pull out a 103g Classic Roc and go for a big time? :D

Jun 30 2004, 03:02 PM
Is the Roc/Condor/Lynx legal for accuracy?

I know the Zephyr is but it isn't beveled edge..

exczar
Jun 30 2004, 03:31 PM
I was thinking that Dave meant the premium weight Classic Roc for SCF. I have one, and if the winds are too strong for my FB3, it works just fine.

I haven't tried a premium weight beveled edge Roc for SCF; I've never even seen one.

davei
Jun 30 2004, 03:57 PM
robj, because I don't practice at all anymore, I would use the Lynx or condor period. They are slow and easy to throw and I would expect to be able to get 10 sec plus on a regular basis. The Classic Rocs went down to 95 gms, I believe. The Classic Roc is the hardest to throw and catch without practice. The Lynx/Condor is the easiest to throw and catch. 138 gms for a light Condor. 113 gms for a light Roc. The best thing about a Classic is the spiraling flight is easier to do, than with the others. A fastback is the easiest to catch, but definitely takes practice to get consistent times.

davei
Jun 30 2004, 03:59 PM
greg, that is controlled by WFDF. World Flying Disc Federation. I dont know offhand.

peter_h
Jun 30 2004, 05:19 PM
Is the Roc/Condor/Lynx legal for accuracy?
I know the Zephyr is but it isn't beveled edge..



Nope, sorry, as you say they have a beveled edge, which disqualifies them from the "vintage" class specifications.

For a list of all approved discs check http://www.wfdf.org/rules/rules_approved_discs.htm all discs that have a number listed in the Max Vintage Weight column is legal for both accuracy and discathon up to the listed weight.

Hmmm, checking the list I just noticed that old 40-mold midnight flyers are legal up to 157.5g, and 100-molds up to 166.8g, interesting... Maybe I should check my old stored disc boxes, or start searching ebay...

flynvegas
Jun 30 2004, 06:28 PM
I liked the Innova Apple for Accuracy.

Jun 30 2004, 07:33 PM
Are these MTA discs the same as the "premi" discs that innova puts out?

davei
Jul 01 2004, 08:16 AM
rocco, yes, premium usually refers to unweighted plastic.

davei
Jul 01 2004, 08:35 AM
robj, I probably should have mentioned the usefulness of cross training in disc sports. Often times one sport disc players such as golfers learn to throw one kind of plastic such as a golf disc that tends to mask or forgive small throwing errors. Training with very light plastic can quickly reveal these errors and force concentration on better technique. Light plastic throwing requires much "cleaner" technique with respect to off axis torque, quick release, release angles, and rhythm. Sidearm is even more dramatic than backhand. It can be a fun way to improve your golf game by learning the nuances of throwing technique.

Jul 01 2004, 11:20 PM
Dave, when you say the best MTA throws spiral down do you mean one circle or several? My very best times (mid 12's) sort of do a circle at a slight anhyzer to almost flat angle and do this very slowly -- first penetrating hyzer to flat to slight anhyzer and then stalling and then hanging/hovering and circling on their way back down and eating up time. But that is with a Condor. The MTA Roc my MTA partner has is one he doesn't really care for (he used to throw exclusively front door) and it has a few dog tooth marks in it :) ) It usually knifes down for me but I'll try to get it to level off better. I can see how it has the potential to get a great time. But if a Classic Roc is more tricky like a FB, then I' d love to try one sometime...

How would you compare the MTA Roc vs. a super light Classic Roc? It sounds like the MTA Roc is easier to throw and get decent times with, but that the Classic Roc though more difficult has a much higher potential for record times. Does the Classic Roc have more dome and float? Bill -- if you want to sell yours please email me.

I can throw light plastic fairly well -- having come to disc golf rather recently. My biggest problem is trying to get the nose down and throw anyhzers with drivers -- my muscle memory seems to think throwing with my hand higher than my elbow is a big no-no. With lids, I could go from hyzer to flat to anhyzer simply by changing my wrist angle but always keeping my forearm parallel to the ground. That seems to translate very well for me with MTA. But I am still struggling to get 'all' of me into my drives. So I guess for me I am sort of backwards from a lot of golfers who can throw better backhands and forehands with heavy golf drivers... I only seem to be able to throw golf drivers decently with hyzer.

I was working on anyhzers today on a soccer field and kept getting the nose up and throwing too high. I am also used to throwing with the disc a few feet away from my chest like you have to in Ultimate to get a throw around the defender who is marking you. Thanks Dave for entertaining MTA and throwing technique talk on your thread. It's a privilege to hear your feedback.

davei
Jul 02 2004, 09:20 AM
The spiral is mainly from the Classic. It may go around as much as twice. It is harder to throw cleanly, but is lighter and floats more. The other discs have plenty of lift, but they are heavier. As for your throw: you do want your elbow up and your wrinst tilted down. A nose down tilt of the disc is necessary to get the disc to plane out high. Having your elbow up high to start will cause it to drop through the throw and help to pull the nose down too. You can start with your elbow as high as your face. If you start your snap with your elbow low, you can induce nose up without even trying.

Jul 02 2004, 11:26 AM
Thanks Dave, I may be beginning to see what I need to do. If I lead with my elbow high, then when the hit is occuring is my forearm hinging at the elbow and striking through at an angle of about 10 or 11 oclock (while maintaining wrist down like in a handshake)? I think my muscle memory wants to throw at 9 or 8 oclock like if I am throwing something very understable and which pulls its own nose down...

Back on thread -- any update on the 20th anniversary Aviars? Will they be P &A's, Champions, CFR or ...? :D

davei
Jul 02 2004, 03:48 PM
robj, that's a good question. I haven't seen the art yet, and I think I need to remind someone. My preference is to do it on Pro Aviars. Black Gold and White.

Jul 02 2004, 04:16 PM
I have a couple 140's or so at the house, unless I gave them away already. I found them at Mozola course in houston, on hole 6 in the drink. Had I known, had I known

Jul 02 2004, 05:38 PM
Dave
I am wondering if you could tell me what happened to the pro line TL's that were supposed to be out this July? Sun King discs had them available for pre-order on their website and now indicate that production has been postponed with no future date for production set.

Jul 02 2004, 10:00 PM
I got some high 11's today with a Condor without much wind -- and borrowed an MTA Roc but have to get used to it -- it definitely requires a lot more hyzer than a Condor -- almost as much as a FB.

The pro Aviar sounds like a good choice for the 20th anniversary stamp, unless you make a limited edition number of them in *all* Aviar molds :D:D:D

Were any premi Aviars ever made at about 100 grams? Would that make a good MTA disc?

rickb
Jul 03 2004, 01:18 AM
Dave or anyone out there with this information.

I've seen yet another "rare" disc, a 1st run/pre 1st run GLOW CE Valkyrie show up on ebay recently. Question is, is this thing for real? I know 1st runs and the colors and such have been discussed often but this is a new claim to a "limited pre 1st run glow CE Valkyrie".

Was the CE Valkyrie ever ran in glow plastic and if so were they released before the 1st runs?

Thanks as always.

dannyreeves
Jul 03 2004, 10:21 AM
This is an e-mail I got from My-Hero about the disc you are talking about:

This exact disc was originally the ADGA's. It was given to us for always being in the top 3 every year (Iccebowl's) when Kelly Hicks was our fearless leader. We raffled it off. I cant for the life of me remember who won it.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=20851&item=3685509703&rd=1

JM

davei
Jul 06 2004, 08:14 AM
colnago, production was complete. We just havent hotstamped them.

davei
Jul 06 2004, 08:15 AM
robj, light aviars are about 105, but don't make good MTA discs

davei
Jul 06 2004, 08:16 AM
rickb, I don't think so. We were having a hard enough time just running them in regular candy.

davei
Jul 06 2004, 08:25 AM
rickb, I should say that it might very well be a glow CE Valk, but not likely to be a "first run".

veganray
Jul 06 2004, 10:04 AM
I have a couple of 95g Aviars and an 89g Magnet, but have never thought to try them for MTA. I think I'll do that this afternoon & report back.

Jul 07 2004, 01:40 AM
Dave, Fred Salaz and I were MTA'ing Sunday and he threw a 14.47 with an Orange Condor. The wind was strong and MTA friendly. Are you planning on MTA'ing in San Diego this weekend?

davei
Jul 07 2004, 08:19 AM
robj, no I wasn't. Is the masters this coming weekend?

Jul 07 2004, 01:23 PM
Dave, I think so. Here is a link:

World Masters and Junior Overall Flying Disc Championships

Sponsored by Discovering the World and the San Diego FreeFlyers, the tournament will take place July 12 through the 16, Monday through Friday.

http://eworldcreations.biz/2004Masters/images/header.jpg

veganray
Jul 08 2004, 11:48 AM
Neither the Magnet nor the Aviars wanted to plane out nicely, no matter at what angle I hucked them. I'll stick with the yellow Condor (unless Lazslo makes me throw a Fastback!)

cantrell
Jul 08 2004, 05:42 PM
Dave,
Sorry if this has been asked already but I just noticed that the stability and fade ratings for your discs have changed on the web site. What is the reason?

Jul 08 2004, 08:32 PM
Well the Roc has the same fade as the Banchee...yeah, I can believe that!


By the way, this is the last post before the new millenium. Happy post 1999!!