That is correct. Buddy of mine has one yellow and one blue 2nd Run CE Val that are super flat and super stable. We call the Super Valks. hehe.

The yellow one is yellow not that day glow yellow color. I swear both of them are more stable than a FX firebird.

Dave-
I throw all sidearm and everyother player I know who throws a lot of sidearm agree with me that the most stable mid-range disc for "us" is the Gator. Our problem is that they are only available in DX and after a few throws, it's time to replace it to get the stability back. Do you have intentions on releasing a CE Gator. The only other disc that is close is the Spider, but even that is still understable at the heaviest weights. Thanks Dave

The standard stamp has already been released for the Sidewinder.



What does it look like? I've searched the Innova website and online disc sellers and only can find pictures of the star stamp. Does the stamp show a picture of a snake sidewinding...?

Dave I have a question about the latest softer run of 4x JK Aviars. I believe the JK Aviar is the disc you use for most of your putts and approaches. Did you intentionally go softer than the 3x's and do you expect future runs of Pro JK Aviars to also be supersoft? What if any differences do you notice between the 3x's and 4x's (soft 2nd run)?

There's a picture of the regular stamped Sidewinder here at this site: http://www.dtworld.com/Main/Featured_Items.htm

I really like the plain star stamp.

Thanks for the link to a picture of the Champion Sidewinder stamp. I forgot it is only DX that has illustrations.

we are thinking about doing a dx Orc within the next month or so.



So how's the thinking comming... target release date??? Dec, Jan ??

thanks... and do you guys have artwork yet? I like the viking, but am not too crazy about the bulldog... ohh well... thanks again :D

DGT, most of the Pro TLs were the blended plastic, but there were some of the first run that were the original. The originals were a little softer and grippier.

There's a picture of the regular stamped Sidewinder here at this site: http://www.dtworld.com/Main/Featured_Items.htm



Interesting -- the perspective of this picture makes the Sidewinder look like an epicyclic design similar to the infamous Aerobie Epic. I know that it is not such a design, but that's what it looks like at this site...

Not inferring anything here at all, but the question concerning a DX Orc seems to be ignored everytime it comes up.

I am personally interested in a DX Orc for distance competitions. In golf I have up to now thrown my Champion Orc at 430ft, my Champion Beast about 425ft. However I can get over 450ft with a DX Beast in Distance Competitions. I am hoping that a DX Orc will go farther for me like the Champion Orc vs the Champion Beast.

I am just waiting and hoping for a release. If not I will just stick to the DX Beast.

This one is a little out of left field so forgive me ahead of time. I have recently gotten my girlfriend interested in playing and of all the discs of mine she has thrown she like my ancient Barracuda (186g) the best. She seems to like discs larger lips like the new disctance stuff but doesn't like the hard left turn she gets from them. I have a 146g JK Valk for her and she likes it ok, but still throws straighter and farther with that darned old Barracuda. Any suggestions as to what to try to get her that is similar?

jaymo, we are thinking about doing a dx Orc within the next month or so.

Hi Dave...Was there 1st run Blueberry Leopards? Also, I might have asked this but, I have a Aviar from 92' Worlds Biggest and its a Soft BB....are these basically soft KCs? Thank you for your time.

jaymo, we are thinking about doing a dx Orc within the next month or so.






Thanks, I could not find the answer on the thread myself.

slowmo, I would stay with the lighter weights. Maybe a lighter weight Sidewinder would be better for her than a light Valkyrie at some point in time. As we run more Sidewinders, the lighter weights will come available. Unfortunately the first of the light weight Sidewinders were not all that flippy. Hopefully, the next batch will be flippier.

Chase, yes there were some Blueberry Leopards, but not many. I don't remember the 1992 big beads. It is not necessarily a driver mold. It may be the putter mold with a big bead.

Hey dave,wondering if you can help me out with a disc.I have an Aviar disc weighing 133. It is yellow with a gold stamp.It says Aviar on it across the middle with a bunch of rings around it.also it says for disc sports by innova.What it does not say is PDGA approved on it.
what is this disc and when was it made?is it legal for play?thanks

Chucky, it is legal for play. It may be 20 years old. It was the first of our packaged discs sold in sporting goods stores. If it is the older version, it will have no bead at all.

I am getting ready to pick up some sidewinders at 166 grams, my preferred weight in drivers. I was considering stocking up on them as I am pretty sure I will like the disc. Perhaps I should back off a little in how many I get.

Now to my real question. Do you consider any 166's that were made to be in the (paraphrasing) "light weights that are more stable" discs or were you referring to even lighter sidewinders? Thanks.

sharky, I was referring to lighter weights. The high sixties and low 70s seemed to be consistently the best performing.

As always Dave, thank you.

Dave, have you thought about a Pro Beast?

NEngle, we're running them now.

NEngle, we're running them now.


When and where will they be available?????

would "why" be an appropriate question?

bfunkyp, the new run should be available widely in two weeks.

would "why" be an appropriate question?



Haha...The Champ beasts are flippy already...what are you trying to do make a beast that would be a great roller?

exactly...!

(_..no offense intended dave.._)

but what about the Dx Orcs people??? that's the money disc! When where, and how (do they fly) these are the questions we should all be asking. I live in one of the rainiest places in the WORLD! and Dx is essential. The Pro orcs are pretty sweet, but I have to augment that with a little Dx Beast, but I am always flipping them, and they DO NOT come back. :(

ohh well I guess I'll just have to wait, but until then, do you guys have a graphic yet? :D

Dave, Have you thought abought a GLO Orc?

Glow drivers is definitely an area where more selection would be appreciated. We glow once a week and the only thing I could find that wasn't a leopard or an eagle was a tee-bird. Nice disc but I only get 70-80% of the D I get with my Orcs and Beasts. Either one of those in glow would be rad.

Now the glow Roc...what a sweet disc.

there are glow beasts.... apparently :D

We were discussing a longer range glo disc, but decided that it would be the easiest to lose as it is the farthest flying and would generally be able to hide the best. We nixed it at that point, but I am sure, if we made them, people would at least try them and give us feedback.

Mr. Dave, Im sorry for badgering you about this but on Ebay there is a guy selling Orcs as 1st run. He says that all 1st runs were White and have a "belly button" on the top of the plate.I have asked him several times how he determined this but will not answer me.I informed him that your response was that there really wasnt a definitive way to tell.I ask because I have a really tall stack of Orcs that were bought out of the first recieved shipments to our local club.The person who does the ordering is very much on top of Innovas product releases and works them on the phone.He has a long standing relationship with them and gets alot of sweet plastic.I really dont want to get rid of any of these if they are truly first runs.Any help? Also, I have a CE Firebird that is dayglo and just a strait "F"but appears to be a FX. In what runs were the FX markings dropped?

Mr. Dave, Im sorry for badgering you about this but on Ebay there is a guy selling Orcs as 1st run. He says that all 1st runs were White and have a "belly button" on the top of the plate.I have asked him several times how he determined this but will not answer me.I informed him that your response was that there really wasnt a definitive way to tell.I ask because I have a really tall stack of Orcs that were bought out of the first recieved shipments to our local club.The person who does the ordering is very much on top of Innovas product releases and works them on the phone.He has a long standing relationship with them and gets alot of sweet plastic.I really dont want to get rid of any of these if they are truly first runs.Any help? Also, I have a CE Firebird that is dayglo and just a strait "F"but appears to be a FX. In what runs were the FX markings dropped?



I thinks its BS, Has INNOVA ever made a run of just one color? I think it would be highly unlikely

Is there a run difference between the Clearer Orcs and the More Pearl one?

is there a current stability chart for all the new runs , molds ,and plastics?

Has innova ever used a stamp to specify 1st run as Gateway and Discraft do? I think its a great idea, especially when people freak out about certain runs.

chase, the first run Orc had other colors, as I recall. I had a pink and green that I was throwing. As for telling the difference of 1st run Orcs and any other run, I have no idea, sorry. The Firebirds are all FX as F is FX. Only the first two runs or so were FL and said F, so only they could be confused, I believe. After that, FL was put on, or FX or subsequently F again to mean FX.

I also bought 12 175g Orc's first day they were posted at DTW. I got all white and day glo. Then a few weeks later I dropped weight to 160g and got white, orange, yellow, blue, ........

I would prefer Innova put the Champion Star, Football, or Bar stamp on all first run discs.

Has innova ever used a stamp to specify 1st run as Gateway and Discraft do? I think its a great idea, especially when people freak out about certain runs.



The Bar stamp in the middle of the disc has been used on DX plastic, I don't know about other lines. The Star stamp is also used for 1st runs, I think mostly for champion and CE discs though.

The Bar stamp in the middle of the disc has been used on DX plastic, I don't know about other lines. The Star stamp is also used for 1st runs, I think mostly for champion and CE discs though.

Some first runs incorporate the words "First Run" in the hotstamp: examples include the new Pro plastic Aviars, Teebirds, and TLs, and DX Teebirds, Valks, Banshees, and Spiders; I believe that DX Archangels also had "First Run" in the hotstamp, but don't have one handy to verify that.

My current roller disc is a "First Run Eagle" - DX.

I believe that DX Archangels also had "First Run" in the hotstamp, but don't have one handy to verify that.



Hey Felix. I do and it does. :D

So did the Eagle and Wolf. The Rhyno, Banshee, Pegasus, Ram, Raven, .had a star type stamp with name of disc across the center. Very easy to identify those as first run.

I still like the Football stamp the best. It was used on Aviar, Aero, Original Roc, SM Roc, Raven, Viper, ......

Dave-
I throw all sidearm and everyother player I know who throws a lot of sidearm agree with me that the most stable mid-range disc for "us" is the Gator. Our problem is that they are only available in DX and after a few throws, it's time to replace it to get the stability back. Do you have intentions on releasing a CE Gator. The only other disc that is close is the Spider, but even that is still understable at the heaviest weights. Thanks Dave

Thanks Dave, thats what I figured. I appreciate it.

hey you posted that 6 days ago... :o

I'm going to pick up some ice clear champ discs. I've seen a shark, But have you ran any clear Vikings or sidewinders? I'll probably just ask if they any in stock when I order but that won't be till after christmas.

They did run some ice vikings. Not sure if they have them in stock but I have had some for a while now.

Just to follow up on the Champion Orcs, I have or had 1st run blue, purple, pink, green, yellow, white and some cool swirled colors like green and blue, pink and blue and yellow and green. I know they are first runs as I ordered them the 1st day available.

Thats what I thought also Jeff.I knew you were right on top of them Orcs.You had them before anyplace else. Did you see the guy on Ebay,too?

I have seen many discs misrepresented on ebay. You learn who knows what they are talking about and who does not. It can work in your favor as well when guys don't know what they have or don't take the time to give a good description. I just got a nine time Roc max weight not long ago for a great price. Was used and advertised as so but after cleaning it up I found a gem under a little dirt. OK, back on thread.

Dave
Is it harder to produce opaque Champion plastic vs. clear or pearl? Seems they are few and far between but most sought after. Sam showed me some Champ Orcs at worlds that were solid blue and he referred to them as night shift Orcs. They have a great feel and seem to be less slick than the clear and pearl.
Also, you said that some of the lighter Sidewinders were more stable than maybe the max weight ones? Has this been true in other molds/runs? I had a light Orc that was an overstable pig and was the same color as a max that I was throwing.
As always thanks for taking your time to try and answer everyones questions....... no matter how many times we ask the same thing!

Have to amend my previous statement about 1st run Archangels. I did have one (I apparently recently traded it) but cannot confirm the first run being on the bar stamp. :confused: :o

"night shift Orc"? That's hilarious.

Jamie, I saw one just yesterday @ Gary C's house. Apparently it is a bar stamp with first run Archangel printed right on it!!! BTW I know EXACTLY what scooby would do!!! :D

yeah i had several of the bar stamp archangels, when these discs first came out i remeber a lot of people i know thinking they were the longest disc they'd ever thrown. now i dont think i know anyone throwing archangels.

"night shift Orc"? That's hilarious.



Especially given that there is probably something to it :D

"night shift Orc"? That's hilarious.



Especially given that there is probably something to it :D



They were tagged "night shift Orc's" apparently due to the night guy�s mixing/testing the combination of Champion and SE plastic? This is something that Dave has mentioned in a prev post that has happened with colors and mixing combinations of colors. Let's call them hybrid Orc's, maybe that�s less funny. They are more sought after, however I like the pearl ones at this point except in wet conditions. The opaque ones seem to have a little more grip and glide and so far wear about the same as the pearls.
Has anyone else seen or thrown them?

I've thrown a blue one with a red stamp and I liked it much better than my regular pearly one's. It was much grippier and it took a beating just like the pearly one's do. I have been unable to find anymore of them either. If anybody has any...pm me...maybe we can talk trade or something.

paul, we weren't thinking about a regular run of Candy Gators, but we might do a special run.

Shaff We have run ice clear Champion Sidewinders

Scoob, we don't generall use opaque color on candy because it would get confused with Pro. It's not any harder. The blue opaque Orcs were an anomoly probably caused by that particular color. The lighter Sidewinders were more stable and it does happen in other molds occasionally. It happened in the second run of Valks too. A lot of weird things happen with candy plastic.

Dave,

I would really like to see CFR discs, either glo or just in regular champion plastic, in discs like Firebirds and Orcs - I know these would be great sellers.
Could this happen?

I've thrown the solid blue Orcs. They were (for me) significantly more overstable than the regular ones of similar weight. It appeared they could handle more torque than the regular ones. I'd help you out, but I recently traded my last one away.

I had 2 blue ones but I also had 1 yellow color one also. You sure it was just blue? Because they are the same but different colors. I was told by Schweb there was not just blue ones.

I'm not sure what other colors were produced like that, but the only colors I've seen have been blue, yellow, and a reddish pink.

I'm not sure what other colors were produced like that, but the only colors I've seen have been blue, yellow, and a reddish pink.



I have a green one as well as the blue and yellow ones. Have not seen the reddish pink.

MTL, yes, I believe we are widening the disc selection for candy fundraising to include some regular drivers in INNcolor.

There are blue, yellow and teal, that I know of.

There are blue, yellow and teal, that I know of.



I recall somewhere that about 600 of these were made, I might be wrong though. I'll see what seach turns up

From Early
PDGA Equipment (http://www.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?Board=Equipment&Number=233788&Searchp age=0&Main=36276&Search=true&#Post233788)

I got 3 of these babies on ebay, 1 Blue and 2 Teal. The teal ones I got for steal, because everyone was bidding on the blue one and didnt know about the teal.
I am throwing one of the teal ones and love it

NighShift Orcs/CE Orcs

http://img126.exs.cx/img126/1978/blueorc3qm.jpg

http://img126.exs.cx/img126/1337/tealorc9om.jpg

Dave:

I may have asked this before...but any chance that the Pro Firebird will be the FL mold? I think that you should run the "L-Series" in the pro plastic. You have the teebird in dx and champion and the TL in pro mainly(With the exception of CFR's). So...why not go the route of the eagle in dx and champion and the EL in the pro. Then you can do the firebird in dx and champion and then the FL in pro? Just a passing thought... :D

Dave,

I've heard that you're discontinuing the Ace and also scaling the Cheetah back to a DX only disc, no more Champion Cheetahs. Any truth to either rumor?

Thanks.

Mr. Egger...you are making me drool... Any chance you wanna get rid of those???? :D

discchucker, it's a good thought. We haven't made a decision yet.

Hawk, yes for the Cheetah. The Ace was always a limited disc. That would be up to Harold on the East Coast.

i for one would not think it would be a good idea to make the pro firebird the FL. pro plastic gives an L effect already, as they dome up more and tend to be less stable. [orcs, tees at least] i would like an overstable pro disc, and i would think the FL might not be stable enough. but i would try it whichever mold is used just to see for myself. can't wait for dx orc, pro firebird, and [dave?] pro or champ gator?

Pro Monster. I know its been discussed, In my opinion that would be a great addition to Pro plastic.

Since the pro plastic makes things less stable, the pro monster could act like a FX

Agreed. I also envisioned a more stable Pro Orc.

Davei,
Are all of the new Pro Beasts made with the Pro/Champion Blend Plastic; the stiffer, less grippy, more durable, and more stable plastic?
Thanks,
Matt

Dave how are those Dx Orcs coming along???

thanks :D

DGT, yes, and all of the new runs will be of the newer Pro blend including the Beast.

jaymo, they won't be along until January.

Thanks Dave for the Dx Orc,
I see that the Pro Beasts are out... Thanks for constantly adding more plastic to the market... I always love trying out new discs. :D

Dave,
The Sidewinder was released with the mini Champion Star stamp, love it. Why don't all new releases come out that way? Would resolve the issue on what's a 1st run disc. Bring back the Football stamp as well. Thx

Dave what do you remember about 10x hybrid KC Firebirds? Was there alot made?

flynvegas, we used to do that a lot. We will in the future, if we remember. It's a good idea.

chase, I don't know what you mean by "hybrid". Do you mean blunter nose Ontario type?

i believe Chase is refering to the mixed plastic run of kc and CE plastic 10x firebirds.

Dave,

Are KC Pro Gazelles in any danger of being taken out of production?

Yep sorry, I meant mixed plastics. Thank you.

discspeed, not yet. They have one more year. Then we'll reevaluate.

Sorry Chase don't remember.

Thats alright Dave, I just dont see alot around, How bout the new Christmas disc? Are they out yet?

chase, the East office is in charge of that. Should be going out any day if they haven't already.

Dave
I have been sorting through my 20 + year old collection and found a couple of white/creme sharks in a unusually soft plastic mix. I think they were from the early or pre SE days. I remember setting them aside because they were different. There is not a special SE stamp or other unique marking. I will be selling my collection and want to properly describe all the discs.
Any help would be appreciated.

Happy Holidays to all.

Dave, When are you going to run some ce orcs, just like the first ones that were a little domey, and more stable, very durable. You just ran some domey, clear ones, but they are even less stable than the current run, and not as durable. If you run some, I'll make a special trip, and bring my bike :D

fossil, only thing I can remember of Sharks like that, were ones made of JK Aviar or SE Rhyno material. I thought those were green. They were very durable, softish and rubbery. It was a special run. Don't know if this helps, but they tan color would be right for this particular material if no dye was put in.

Well Russell, bring your bike, I will run some with the blue dye. And if you're in a hurry, you could look into the new Starfires. Basically, they are eactly like a more stable Orc.

Oooo. Like the sound of that Dave. I'm assuming all fundraiser Starfires will be of the new variety next year? I've only seen a few from USDGC's so far and those are few and far between. Any idea if there are some out there being sold now for fundraising discs? As always, thanks Dave. And let me know when I can get my hand on those Orc's!

As far as the Starfires go: we still have white in the older type, but the colored are almost all new type and next run will be all new type. I will try to post when the new Orcs are run.

I have thrown the new Starfires, 2 to be exact, and they didn't seem to be as stable as the Orcs that I'm talking about, at least not those 2 Starfires. And besides Danny hates it when I start throwing fundraisers in the water at Vista :D, considering I haven't paid for a disc in 2 years :D. I do like the new starfires, but they seem like the orcs that are out right now. Cup knows which orcs I like.

I am seriously picking a date, on a non-tournament weekend, to come out and ride, I'll let you know. It should be within a month or so. I know you're itchin' to kick my butt on some hills :Dbut remember, with me on my bike, I still weigh 50 lbs less than you on your bike :o

Russell, I don't need to kick your butt on a hill, I just want to show you some real fun single track at Marshall Canyon. You can probably look it up on the Web. I wouldn't want to hurt you doing real mountain biking. :o

lol! :Dwe have a couple of bikers here huh? what bike do you ride dave? i used to be into BMX biking but got tired of frequently injuring myself.

Can you get hurt with no rocks or cactus in your way?

lol! :Dwe have a couple of bikers here huh? what bike do you ride dave? i used to be into BMX biking but got tired of frequently injuring myself.



Dave rides one of those new Schwinn choppers. He goes pretty good on it, but his knees keep hitting the handle bars :D

Paul, I have a specialized enduro.

Hey dave when are you going to come out with a disc that has the SPEED of a Valk and the stability of a Monster

They did. It's called the Monster.

They did. It's called the Monster.



Monster's are SLOOOOOW

Get a bet up one they are fast.... Don't confuse stability w/ speed...

ce

cool dave, have you ever heard of Haro bikes? i have a Ryan Nyquist model from when i road BMX thats really well built and i think they make some really nice mountain bikes also.

Paul, yes I have head of Haro bikes. Don't know that much about them, but I have heard of them.

so Dave, what's stewing in that brain of yours for the new year???

I know the Dx Orc is on it's way :D

but any other new discs, or discs in new plastics.

Thanks

jaymo, we are mainly trying to catch up on disc materials we haven't run in particular models yet, like the DX Orc. That will keep us busy for a while. We are going to try and run more models in Pro too.

cool dave, have you ever heard of Haro bikes? i have a Ryan Nyquist model from when i road BMX thats really well built and i think they make some really nice mountain bikes also.



I have a Nyquist Backtrail. But I'm thinking of getting a mountain bike so I can ride to the course easier since I moved. Compare Half a mile to 5 miles.

Dave, I love the sidewinder as a long distance driver that I can turnover pretty well, I managed to pick up two at my preferred weight 166, but can find no more at that weight. My question/plea, when's the next run and please make a bunch at 166.

sharky, the run is still going on. We are making mid and low sixties too.

Dave,
Was the first Innova Xmas disc a green Patent Pending Aero, in premium weight? Thx

Dave,
Don't neglect 150-class. I've got a 154g, but would savor a super-gummy 150g.

flynvegas, too long ago to remember, but it could have been. Most likely there would have been more than one color. Red and white would be the next most likely.

Vegan Ray, if you're talking about the Sidewinders, not likely we will be about to get down that low. Sorry.

Haro makes a good mountain bike. I've had my Haro mountain bike for about 5 years and it's still holding up, which is pretty impressive considering my size and the jumps I go off of. I think it's the "escape" model. Nice and sturdy, and lightweight too. If you're under 6' I suggest you swap the handlebars though cause they strech you out a bit. Great for agressive riding!

http://www.geocities.co.jp/Athlete-Acropolis/7739/abc05.jpg
^Not mine but same model.

dave any idea where i can see some photos of the Sunrise Ski resort course online? thanks

Tom Bant runs the course but I don't know that he has a web site. I don't have any pictures, sorry.. I believe the course is going back in next spring after ski season. I hope so, as it was one of the most popular courses in So Cal. 27 holes

dave--i assume the star-stamped sidewinders are of the same run [and fly the same] as the champion-stamped ones? thanx

steven, possible, but not definite. We have been running Sidewinders for several weeks, after the initial run. Even the same run has variations in stability, if that's what you're concerned with. The most consistent weight, regardless of run is high 60s to low 70s. The heavier weights and the lower weights have come out with less high speed turn.

My 175g star-stamp will turn if you help it out, but thrown level or with a small hyzer it is closer to being slightly overstable, than under

thanx dave--can you give us an update of the new dx plastic? why the change, are you happy with it , etc. i have not seen it. any chance of a dx tl?

No dx tl for now. The new dx has plusses and minuses. It is a little more durable, but harder to mold. We are probably going to a mix of the old and new next time.

Dave

Does durable = stiffer with this dx material?

They are two separate things, but this material is generally a little stiffer.

dave, what is the best overstable mid range that innova makes?
--Chris

dave, what is the best overstable mid range that innova makes?
--Chris



The Gator is the best overstable mid-range disc from Innova.

(Too bad it doesn't come in Champion plastic or as a Fundraiser disc).

PT Woods
# 20431

Hey Dave,Do you remember what color stamps came on the first production run Blueberry CE valks and how many of these Blue discs were made?

i guess what i am really looking for is an overstable midrange that comes in champion plastic so i can rely on it for a long time. i am just tired of beating in KC rocks so quickly that i am buying new ones every other month.
any suggestions (that wont cost me $75)?
later
Chris

Z-wasp

i guess what i am really looking for is an overstable midrange that comes in champion plastic so i can rely on it for a long time.



Champ Shark

Or you could wait for the new Champ. Rocs to come out.

i guess what i am really looking for is an overstable midrange that comes in champion plastic so i can rely on it for a long time.



Champ Shark



I also like the champ shark, very predictable for me.

i have tried the shark but i have found that it flips with the amount of spin i put on it. but, kid-roc, i would be all about the z wasp since it pretty much is a CE Roc but i am trying to stick with innova.
if anyone else has ideas on a solid overstable midrange (by innova) or news if the gator might be made in champion plastic please let me know
later
Chris

when would the new champ rocs be coming out?

I would look into two discs if you want to stick to Innova:

Candy Glow Roc (2004)...these are reasonable on eBay ($40-50 with shipping). I've been throwing mine for almost a year, and I use it at least every other hole for shots of 100-270 feet. It's very stable (to overstable) for me. If I release hyzer in the wind, it will go straight and fade back left (RHBH).

Candy (CFR) Viper...again, reasonable on eBay ($20-30 with shipping). This one is SUPER overstable...and it skips like a 5-year old girl...on Christmas...with a new puppy. I've been using mine for over a year and it still throws great. If I could just control a forehand with it...


Hope this helps.

Has someone already suggested a pro-line gremlin? It is basically a ce gator. A little thinner but just as stable.... I have a couple....

Chris, I don't know what you mean by "best". We make several: Whippet, Viper, Gator, Bulldog. These are listed from most overstable to least.

Chunkylee, no I don't remember the stamps and there weren't that many made. I would guess less than 1000.

Chris, I would agree with the Champ Shark suggestion.

i have tried the shark but i have found that it flips with the amount of spin i put on it.



Dave, wouldn't it be technique rather than spin which is flipping the Shark?

Has someone already suggested a pro-line gremlin? It is basically a ce gator. A little thinner but just as stable.... I have a couple....

The only problem with suggesting a Proline Gremlin is that it (as well as the DX Gremlin) is no longer in production.

robj, while it is true his technique may be flipping the Shark, it is him throwing it. In other words, if it doesn't work for him, why force it? I have had problems flipping certain models too, that's one reason why we have so many choices. Lots of different hands, with different grips, and different throwing styles.

I heard that the champ stingray was going out of production. Is the sidewinder replacing it, or have sales been bad, or...?

Schaff, it was more than it was really hard to manufacture. We had more rejects than good parts.

anybody know of any tournaments where candy glo rocs would be for sale?

Dave, I wasn't suggesting he shouldn't carry discs which fit his technique, rather i was trying to get you to weigh in on whether throwing with a lot of spin means you will automaticly flip anything but the most overstable discs over. In and of itself, I don't see having a lot of spin as something that will cause a disc to turn over.

robj, i dont know for sure if i am right and i am also unsure if what i am saying will make sense but here goes.
i did a physics project on the flight charecteristics of discs and this is what i found. for a RHBH throw the disc will be spinning clock wise moving forward. the air resistance will have a greater effect on the left side of the disc since the disc is spinning into the wind on that side of the disc. this is what creates the natural hyzer of a disc. however the faster the disc is spinning, gyroscopic inertia will want to carry the disc into the direction that it is spinning (to the right). so the more spin on a disc the the more it will want to turn over to the right. (all this is obviously in the reverse direction for lefty and sidearm throwers). this sounds logical to me but if anyone knows for sure that i am wrong please correct me because i would be interested in hearing other theories...
later
Chris

Thanks for sharing your take on it. What you say makes some sense, but I have also heard that a lot of spin will keep a disc holding whatever line you give it longer and that seems to me to be true. I used a lot of spin in Ultimate to get an understable disc to hold a hyzer. I've heard that a lot of spin creates a gyroscope like effect but I am not sure of the physics.

I have heard two schools of thought -- one that a lot of spin automaticly flips a disc and second that a lot of spin can keep even an understable disc from turning over. The thing is, other factors invariably factor in such as armspeed, disc speed, disc stability, nose angle, wrist roll, etc, etc.
I still shake my head though when I hear a player say he has too big an arm to throw an Orc without flipping it. The distance record was thrown by a guy throwing a less than max weight DX Valkyrie over 800 feet. I doubt many people have a 'bigger' arm than that...

all you really need to have "a big arm" is cheezy puffs, ice cream, and pizza. but to be able to throw far you need knowledge of angles, snap, velocity, and your plastic!
it seems to me that the more snap i put on my rocs when i throw them, the more hyzer i have to give them to keep them from flipping over and tuning right. for a while this was because my wrist was to limp in my release but even now that i have changed this i am still flipping my stable discs. we could argue about what snap does to a disc for weeks and still get no where (much less 800+ feet!). so lets just agree to disagree and say that im right and your wrong :cool:
just kidding
Chris

Spin does not cause a disc to turn over, it stablizes it. For a technical discussion of the physics, see, e.g., G. D. Stilley and D. L. Carstens, "Adaptation of Frisbee Flight Principle to Delivery of Special Ordnance," AIAA* Paper No. 72-982, 1972; J. R, Potts and W. J. Crowther, "The Aerodynamics of a Rotating Low-Aspect Disc-wing," Royal Aeronautical Society Aerodynamics Research Conference, April 2000; J. R. Potts and W. J. Crowther, "Frisbee� Aerodynamics", AIAA Paper No. 2002-3150, 2002. (J. R. Potts is the founder/owner of Discwing.) See also, the extensive bibliography of works by Peter Lissaman on disc stability.

* AIAA = American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics

Thanks Felix. That sounds right to me. I'll bet back when Dave was setting a world record for distance the discs were pretty flippy and to throw far definitely required a great deal of spin (to stabilize them).

Dave....since the Champion Stingray is no longer going to be produced, is there a chance that we could see it in the pro plastic? Or do you think that it would have the same issues as the champion?

And second...do you think we will ever get to see the Gremlin again? Especially in the champion or pro plastic?

robj, Felix is correct. This has to include the proper meaning of stabilize. The spin tries to keep the disc from turning either way. More spin may add some additional turn resistance. The turnover most throwers get when they throw harder with high speed stable discs, is usually from off axis torque or flutter. There doesn't have to be much to screw up the air flow and if there is a problem with off axis torque, it is usually made worse throwing directly into a wind. The case was the same when I was throwing distance in the old days with Frisbees, except off axis torque would destroy the throw instead of just flip it a little. A clean (no flutter) throw would hold its line, but a dirty throw would flip and roll. Todays discs have more rim mass compared to flight plate mass which adds gyroscopic damping of off axis torque.

discchucker, the Stingray mold makes it difficult to mold in any plastic including Pro. The Gremlin may be back at some point in a special run, but not likely in a stock item.

i never thought of it like that. :Ddave your a genious.

Thanks Dave -- reading your answer is a treat. Let me know if my reading of your answer sounds right and where I might be selectively interpreting --

one can put a huge amount of spin on a disc and not flip it provided the torque is not off axis. Modern disc technology INNOVAtions do not punish throws with off-axis torque the way old-school discs once did because the increased rim mass dampens down the effects of off-axis torque. These INNOVAtions lead to greater consistency when throwing discs into winds and when putting a lot of power into throws. These INNOVAtions also enable players to get away with [some] off-axis torque provided they throw discs that are sufficiently stable. However, throwing an understable disc with a lot of spin and power without flipping it is quite possible IF it involves very good technique with very little off-axis torque.

Btw, if the Champion Stingray is being discontinued, has production already ceased and do the warehouses still have them in stock?

try the Q Sentinel.
Very stable and PROdictable

What Innova mold is the Millennium QJLS?

its based off of the leopard mold.

what about the EXP?

I was told that the EXP was a variation of the Banshee... Can anyone verify that?

Yes that is true. i think Dave was talking about this just a couple days ago on here.

try the Q Sentinel.
Very stable and PROdictable



I second that. the q-sentinal (aka cobraX) is quite stable even at high speeds.

Robj, yes the Champion Stingray is still in stock, but production has stopped. Your answer is correct, but the understable disc will still turn, just not bail and roll.

Dave...
I have a small background in the aerospace industry.. I was wondering what your understanding of air pressure and disc flight. An airplaines wing is an airfoil (domey on top and flat on bottom... ) decreasing air pressure on top as air moves over it giving lift... Most discs have a dome on top.. but bottoms vary. which is what i am trying to figure out why does a curvy wing (lip) seem to create more overstability.. and a less curvy lip more understability... what would happen to a disc thats underside mirrored the top.... thanks in advance

colin evans

bandsagger, if you're talking about the lip mirroring the top, it would become less stable. If you are talking about the entire bottom mirroring the top to become a discus, it would have less drag and less stability. I believe the trend in aerodynamics today is to discount the low pressure on top theory in favor of a higher pressure on bottom due to pitch theory. Think about a balsa wing model airplane, or a paper airplane with flat wings.

Dave,
is the DX Aviar Putt & Approach the big bead or small bead? And could you please define the "bead." I still get confused by this.

bfunkyp, the Aviar Putt & Approach is the small bead. The bead is the little ridge next to the bottom of the bevel of the rim. Originally, the bevel was completely flat.

Dave, I post very infrequently, In fact it has been nearly a year since I posted in this area with the same question. Do you have any plans for a Champion Gator. You mentioned last year that it might possibly be a fundraising disc. I am patiently waiting with my fingers crossed.

P.S. - Thank you so much for the Worlds Super Rocs.

Nevermind. I found where you answered that question about 3 weeks ago. Thanks.

so dave, Dx Orc soon??? have you guys run them yet, stamped them???

thanks :D

[QUOTE]
so dave, Dx Orc soon??? have you guys run them yet, stamped them???[/quote

Please stamp them with the Football stamp. If not that classic stamp the Champion Star would be great.

i promise i'll buy 5 if you guys stamp them with some old school stamp for the first run. :D

Dave, did you ever make any Pro Valks?

DX Orc is next up. Pro Valk has been delayed slightly until its machine gets a new part. About 2 weeks or so.

The Valkyrie Machine, :D

As far as the Starfires go: we still have white in the older type, but the colored are almost all new type and next run will be all new type. I will try to post when the new Orcs are run.



Dave I would like to know that the difference is between the old and the new starfires.
Thank you in advance.
Zacchaeus Nash

znash, there is only a slight difference. The original Starfires would keep a good hyzer or anhyzer, but were touchy going straight. The new ones are easier to throw straight and transition more smothly from hyzer to anhyzer throws. As far as telling the difference just by looking... I am not sure. It is possible that the beveled edge of the newer ones is slightly more concave to the eye.

This MAY not be a suitable question but has innova ever made star stamped avairs (p&a), Im looking for some in white, heavier weights, 172g+

thanks in advance :)

ill4mation, we did, but I don't know how many. It could have been only a few. I remember I was putting with star stamped Aviars, but I might have stamped them myself just because I liked the stamp at the time.

That sounds right, I've never seen a Star stamped Aviar. I have seen Football stamped Aviars. Bring back these great stamps, please.

Dave is right as usual. I putted with one for about a year. I've only seen the small star stamp though. I've seen them on ebay once in a great while. You can have my used one for cheap if you want it.

there was one on ebay as of yesterday (small star stamped P&A Aviar, white with black hotstamp)

Was it a glo Star Stamp? Hi Dave , heres a idea Im sure you have heard a thousand times,what about "retro stamps" for CFR stuff? I realize most is stamped for the tourney in question but couldnt you run limited series of stamps with the excess or overstock? Or, maybe have a bi- monthly release of vintage stamped discs? Personally, I wish all my discs had star stamps, mini stars or just the Champion Whippet-type Logo. Thanks Dave.

I got a star stamped (small) glo Aviar (P & A plastic, I think) one time in a box of discs I ordered for our disc golf club. Sold it for ten bucks. It was sweet. The guy that bought it lives about three hours away, and every time I see him at a tourney, he is usin it! Very nice disc.

Glo star stamps are a dime a dozen. This was a regular DX. But come to think of it.. I believe it is a big bead.

No, it was just a white dx P&A Aviar with a small flat black star stamp in the center. Or at least thats all it said, it might still be on there...

The small star is much more recent than the original. At least ten years.

Dave, we are talking about beadless, small bead and big bead Aviars. How many molds are they, 3 different ones or,.... or are there more variations in between those??

I actually am looking for small star stamped aviars, glo stamp would even be nice...

Dave, just curious if you have yet to see the new DiscWing Quarter K, and if you have what are your thoughts on it? thanks again.

I asked that once about the Epic.Still feel bad for the bull$%^& it stirred up.

There were originally 2 identical beadless Aviar molds. We put a small bead on one and a bigger bead on the other. We also had a third cavity made for the driver mold. At present we can make big and small bead drivers or putters.

Paul, I believe I have seen a picture of the retool. If it meets the PDGA specs for rim height, weight, flexibility, etc. (including symmetry), I have no objections. If you are talking about my opinion of the design as a golf disc. I have already explored that design five years ago. It works great new, but becomes very unstable in a short period of time.

Hey Dave...

If someone else asks you about dx Orc I think you should do what I do to my students if they keep asking me for something...

If my students keep asking me for something, I generally postpone what they are asking for until they stop bugging me about it.

So if someone else asks you about dx Orcs, I would tell them that you stopped production of them until they stopped bugging you about it.

Hey Dave-

How are the DX Orcs coming? :D

I know the difference between a BB and a SB Aviar, but what is the difference in the driver and putter molds? Thanks Dave.

what are the differences between all the aviars ? and how can you tell the difference in appearance etc. i have always used an aviar exclusively as my putter and would like to really get to know all the variations for different shots etc!! one more question are they all in current production?thanks in advance #21173

rob and esalazar, the putter mold is slightly lower profile with a sharper nose. The driver has a slightly fatter nose. The putter mold will not hold a hard line into the wind but the driver will. The JK, KC, and Pro Aviars are driver mold. The Putt & Approach, Classic, and Champion are putter mold. The beads don't make much difference except feel and wear. The big bead holds up longer.

Dave,

Are the Omegas driver or putter mold? I know they are all small bead, but wondered if there was a difference mold wise.

thanks dave!!!!

Hi dave, any word on Stancil Johnson's book? :p
I checked, and it was Dec. 2003 the request for photos was made.

Also, is that li'l park in RC with 6 baskets open to the public? It was locked when we stopped by last week with our club's order.

There were originally 2 identical beadless Aviar molds. We put a small bead on one and a bigger bead on the other. We also had a third cavity made for the driver mold. At present we can make big and small bead drivers or putters.



Conclusion, so it means that you don�t have a beadless mold left? :(

Hawk, they are putter mold. All omegas are.

Steve, no word on the book. I am still recieving requests for information. Must be a big book. The practice course is open to the public, but closed when it rains as it is a flood basin.

mf100, that is correct.

Hawk, they are putter mold. All omegas are.



Dave,

Does that include the AP and the Driver :confused:

Sorry to keep asking these types of questions,
Ray

Prairie Dog, yes.

Dave,

Are the DX Orcs going to be out soon?

Don

Does that include the AP and the Driver




Therefore your driver is actually a putter! :D

That sounds like a RIPT question.

dm4, yes. Hopefully by the end of January.

WILL THERE BE ANY PRO LINE VALKS, OR FIREBIRDS ANY TIME SOON ? I THINK THEY WOULD BE A GOOD ADDITION TO THE LINE. :cool:<font color="blue"> </font>

There won't be if you keep yelling @ Dave. ( all caps mean you're YELLING!)

clizard, Pro Line Valks are coming soon. Not sure about the status of Pro Firebirds yet.

Dave, any thoughts on developing a disc with the characteristics of a Teebird but a Speed of 10 and keep the high speed turn of 0 instead of a negative turn like newer drivers (ex: beast,Orc)?

PT Woods
# 20431

Try a Viking; flies like a faster, longer Teebird 4 me.

Try a Viking; flies like a faster, longer Teebird 4 me.



It's close but not as stable into the wind as a TB. Actually the new PRO Beast is the closest disc to a Teebird. It reminds me of my old Pro Line Beast.

PT Woods
# 20431

Was it a glo Star Stamp? Hi Dave , heres a idea Im sure you have heard a thousand times,what about "retro stamps" for CFR stuff? I realize most is stamped for the tourney in question but couldnt you run limited series of stamps with the excess or overstock? Or, maybe have a bi- monthly release of vintage stamped discs? Personally, I wish all my discs had star stamps, mini stars or just the Champion Whippet-type Logo. Thanks Dave.



Dave, I dont know if you saw this but is there any possibilites? Also when you released your first discs was there as much hype as there is for the "revouloutionary" discs that weve seen lately, like the QK or the Epic? I ask because I was reading a old Ed Headrick ad about the Rec golf association and how manufacturers changed the game,with newer disc designs and wondered what obsticals {beside finacial} you hurdled to get where you are.

Try a Viking; flies like a faster, longer Teebird 4 me.



It's close but not as stable into the wind as a TB.


True dat!

i would bet if you ran an event, you could get your cfr stuff stamped with the retro star stamp or whatever, but events use their own stamps so they can have a collectible from the event.

primetime, the new run of Starfires are pretty close, except for more low speed overstability. The Firebird L is pretty close in a slightly slower disc (than 10) that is still faster than a TeeBird.

chase, we tend to save the star stamp for specials and first runs. If we put it on CFR, it would degrade the first run status. There was no hype from us concerning our disc, but there was flack from some players who wanted to keep courses with short fairways. I was told several times that I singlehandedly ruined frisbee golf. I wouldn't describe any of this as a hurdle though. Just a bump in the road.

I would think you evolved it into disc golf.

LOL,Ruined Frisbee Golf,Yeah right,Only evolved it too the greatest sport ever!

Dave, I understand how you want to keep the star stamp for specials and first runs but what about the mini star stamp? Is that saved for first runs and specials too?

I would LOVE to have a few small star stamped aviars (p&a)

DTW is selling mini Star stamped Stingrays right now. What's special about it? Please release the DX Orc with the Football stamp, please. Thx

I would think you evolved it into disc golf.

IMO, "evolved" grossly understates the magnitude of the change wrought by the bevel-edged disc. I would go as far as to say that the bevel-edge disc killed Frisbee Golf while giving birth to Disc Golf.

When I started playing Frisbee Golf in seminary in '85, our discs of choice were 141g and 175g "World Class" Frisbees, 200' holes were par 4s, and the one 280' hole was a par 6. The course (object course: I didn't set my eyes on my first basket until '88) was around 3000', par was 63, and the course record was three or four under.

I still remember the day Dave Swarbrick showed up with this itty-bitty little blue disc with a smooth top (no Rings of Hedrick) called an "Aviar" and passed it around for us to inspect. We all laughed, figuring it was some kind of joke, and kidded him about his new toy. Then he went out and shot a 6 under with it, and followed that up the next day with a 7 under, 3-ing the par 6 both times.

So practically overnight, the introduction of the bevel-edge disc made our course obsolete. Within a week, everyone had one of those newfangled discs (I still have mine), and by the time the month was out, we had lengthened 3 holes to over 300', added ~500' overall to the length of the course, dropped par from 63 to 58, and had nothing over par 4. (A year later, we lengthened the course again and dropped a couple of par 3s to par 2s!) Needless to say, during my remaining time in seminary, none of us ever played with a Frisbee (or lid) again.

fore, wanna sell your bevel-edge disc? :D

dave, love the sindwinder, all i want to do now is throw rollers!!!!

1? So i'm guessing when u make a new disc, it's made out of wood (like the trophy discs) and formed with a lathe?

I would think you evolved it into disc golf.

IMO, "evolved" grossly understates the magnitude of the change wrought by the bevel-edged disc. I would go as far as to say that the bevel-edge disc killed Frisbee Golf while giving birth to Disc Golf.



'Killed' may be a bit overboard. Reptiles are still around, but mammals seem to have them beat in terms of speed, agility, and intelligence. Horses and buggies still exist but are pretty much obselete as the best way to go from point A to point B. 141g 'World Class' lids are still PDGA-approved, but I don't think Kenny or Barry bother to carry any :D

I was told several times that I singlehandedly ruined frisbee golf. I wouldn't describe any of this as a hurdle though. Just a bump in the road.



You were kind enough to approach the disc makers of the day with your suggestion. It is only fitting that after they rejected your idea, your idea ended up rejecting them. :D

I believe some first runs have used the mini star stamp. Nothing really wrong with using it for the Aviar P&A or the Stingray as they could not be confused with first runs. The putter now has a small bead and the Stingray no longer has two concentric circles underneath.

besirker, we rarely use models any more. We never used wood. The only disc we used a lathe to model was the Aviar.

Dave,now that im on this subject from the other thread,What are your thoughts on the crazy amounts of money some Innova discs are fetching.

Dave, thanks for the Sidewinder. Is there any difference in plastic between the star stamps and the 'Sidewinder' stamps? Someone told me sometimes proto runs are made out of superior plastic.

CE, I think they are spending too much. I have heard that some are going for over a hundred dollars. I am not a collector so I don't get it personally. But, as a player, I might pay as much as 50 bucks for a candy disc that I needed, if I couldn't get it any more. Some of the first heavy candy Valks were like that for me. But most of the time I would learn what was available.

robj, proto runs are run out of the same plastic as any other run. There have been some exceptions like the first run Valks and TLs which were made out of a slightly different plastic that went off the market after that.

In related news the prices of proto valks and TLs on the used disc commodity market rose another 20% today after Dave of Innova made a comment to The Crazy Collecter Weekly concerning.... :D :p

Dave, are the DTW small star stamps 1st run Champion Stingrays? Until recently I hadnt seen them.Any idea on a number run? Also, are X-outs counted in thr complete run or are they counted seperatly? Thank you Sir.

any idea how many clear pro line beasts were made in the first run? all i know is that they were far less common than the pearl plastic ones.

also dave, what is this innova disc called the Thunderbird? i just saw it on the approved disc lists, its new to me. :)