Dave: Can I get a little history ( or can someone who follows this thread direct me) on the Viper. I just traded for a MINT Football Stamp and have sold some 1st run star stamp Vipers in the past for a good friend.

Maybe my terminologies on disc names are off, but what is the difference on the football stamp (for Vipers and other discs such as Aviars also) and other Innova stamps? Would a football stamp or 1st run Viper be more rare? I can send you some pics if you want to see what I am referring to.

Thanks in advance!

Football stamp Vipers are crap, and basically worthless. But since I'm such a nice guy I'll take them all off your hands. :)

Football Stamps are ancient history good, and I believe they are the rarest of the good collectibles.

I love Vipers, so please give me a shot at any football or Metalhead Vipers you sell in the future.

also dave, what is this innova disc called the Thunderbird? i just saw it on the approved disc lists, its new to me. :)



Isn't that the old name for a TeeBird?

Ahart sold a Patent Pending Aero, Mint, last weekend for $58. That Aero is much more rare than the Viper. Football stamps are the rarest Champion stamp of them all. It would be cool to see a mini Football stamp used.

also dave, what is this innova disc called the Thunderbird? i just saw it on the approved disc lists, its new to me. :)

Thunderbird = Teebird

'Killed' may be a bit overboard.

Of course it's overstatement, but it there's more than just a grain of truth in it.


Horses and buggies still exist but are pretty much obselete as the best way to go from point A to point B.

Depends on where you're tying to get to. I'm guessing you'll get from first base to home with your wife a darn sight faster if you take her for an after-dinner horse and buggy ride through midtown Manhattan on Valentines Day than you will taking her for a cab ride. :D


141g 'World Class' lids are still PDGA-approved, but I don't think Kenny or Barry bother to carry any :D

That's my point. Lids may still be around and tournament approved, but they're simply not a viable option on most of today's courses. When was the last time you, or someone you know, competed in a regular tournament (not a special "old school" event), whether sanctioned or unsanctioned, using only lids? Occasionally I come across a first-time golfer playing with a lid at one of the local courses, and almost invariably, the first words out of his/her mouth are something like, "Where do you get your discs?" or "Where can I get a disc like yours?" That's true even on courses designed when lids were still a viable option, like Cornwallis Road (est. 1988, 6 holes < 181', 5 between 200' and 220', only 2 > 251') here in Durham. So apparently even rank beginners recognize that that they're playing a whole different game than everyone else.

It is also arguable that the bevel-edge disc changed the way the game is played from both a mechanical and a mental standpoint. You throw MTA, so you know how much even a slight breeze can affect a disc; you're probably also aware of how much more precise you have to be with your angles, vectors, speed, snap, etc. to get off a reasonably clean throw. Now, imagine playing disc golf with a Fastback�, a 130g Night Flyer�, or even a 175g World Class Frisbee�. Or imagine throwing a 275' hyzer down a 12-15' wide tunnel with a 20-25' ceiling, and a steep, 20' drop-off down the right hand side of the fairway (see #5 Cornwallis Road (http://www.mindspring.com/%7ebullcitydiscclub/cornwallis_map.html)) with one of those discs. (Imagine putting in the wind with a Night Flyer!)

And when was the last time you saw someone tee off using an overhand wrist flip (aka chicken wing), which was the power technique of choice among the 20 or so of us back when I started playing (at least it was until we got our hands on Aviars and found we could throw them just as far, if not farther, with less effort and without the risk of blowing out your shoulder or wrenching your back)?

So despite the similarities�and, to an extent, the continuities�between Frisbee Golf and Disc Golf, they are, IMO, two different games. Yes, people still play Frisbee Golf, but it's primarily, if not exclusively. an informal recreational activity; contrast that with Disc Golf, a bona fide, growing, thriving, organized sport.

This summer I had the pleasure of playing in the MSDGC and during the second round a man in my group, whose name i think was will kidwell used a midnight flyer for all of his approach shots, and the only bevel edged disc he used was an XL. While he didnt win the tourney he was by far one of the best "approachers" that ive ever seen.

Felix, I find it hard not to agree with almost everything you say :D I liked your first post a lot too :D I just wanted to point out that 'evolved' is also a good description because if you liken lids to reptiles and beveled-edged discs to mammals you have an example of something that didn't kill off the former but certainly supplanted it.

Could someone post a pic of a "football stamped" disc. I don't know if I've ever seen one, but I keep reading all these posts about them. Help shed some light for me please.

go to www.discgolftrader.com (http://www.discgolftrader.com)

collections, viper... voila!

Thanks! Cool site, and I was right, never seen it before.

Chase, they are first run as there has only been one run. It was big, mainly due to the fact that we had a boatload of X parts. We don't usually count X parts as the run. There may have been as many as 20,000 total, but the majority might have been x parts.

paul, I don't know, but only a relatively small portion.

17684, a football stamp is relatively rare, but a true first run Viper is much more rare. The football stamp could have been on first second or third runs. The football stamp was used for first runs and special runs.

Dave - so a Proto ( I guess they are referring to Patent Pending) football and a Proto Star Stamp would both essentially be first runs?

Made around 1992 maybe if I recall correctly?

Tom Miller competes in VA States (golf, MTA, & distance) yearly using only an Ultrastar. I believe Steve Dodge did the same for a couple of years.

Will Kidwell is one of my homies & is DEADLY accurate with a Midnight Flyer (he could float one down my chimney from my driveway without touching the sides), as well as a great Ultimate player.

17684, the Star stamp would be, but the football stamp, unless it is on a pat pend. might or might not be.

Thanks for your help Dave!

Thanks, Dave. What is the largest run youve done since CE first appeared?

chase, that Stingray run was probably it, until now. The Sidewinder run might be it as it is still in and running. Not there yet though.

Ok, thanks Dave. Is there a place where the CH Whippet run # is located? On Ebay last night I saw someone selling these under a 2500 run number. I thought it was between 4500-5000.Also, with the Whippet, were most of the X-outs due to the Stamp? I have a ICE X-out that has a flaw, but most Ive seen have no flaws other than the stamp "not taking".Of the 15 or more I have only 5 have perfect stamps.The rest are patchy.This is just curiosity.Thanks as always Sir.

Yeah There's an amazing masters player up here in BC (by the name of Glen Whitlock) and he still throws some wrist flips here and there, on long holes too... it's neat to see it done well

There is a guy from La that only plays with a Zephyr. He is pretty good with that thing and has done very well in Southern National tournaments on short wooded courses.

Oklahoma City has a Pro Master that was an ultimate player first. He plays all tournies with Midnight Flyers and won the last one I saw him in.

When someone really has those discs figured out it is amazing!

chase, i don't remember the number, but it wouldn't have been large. I would guess around 3500, but don't know. As for the rejects, I don't remember many molding rejects. As I recall, it ran fine. I don't know about the hotstamping. From what you say, it must now have gone well. Sorry I don't know any more.

No worries Dave. The Whippet X-out I have looks as if someone put something very hot on it for just a sec.Like a small burn in the plastic, and the other Xs Ive seen may contain small black flecks.

Hey Dave, I just purchased an Aviar that has AX marked on the bottom and has the Innova bar stamp on top with Pro Line written in it and JK Aviar X written below it. Is this a proto JK Aviar X or a proto big bead or what? I've been told by others that it's like 3 different discs :confused: and I thought I'd go to the source to get the truth. Thanks in advance!

Dave,
When a new disc is run e.q. "sidewinder", what are the percentages would you say of the weight ranges that INNOVA produces the most of... Or a website that explains a little bit about production.
example:

150-160 10%
161-165 20%
166-170 30%
170-max 40%

My question comes in knowing that it is much harder to find lower weight "gummy" plastics like 150-163..

crdiscgolfer, it sounds like a regular JK Aviar-x. All JKs are x mold. We don't mark it anymore. If it says AX under it, it is probably from the first or second run. The stamp doesn't sound familiar to me, I think I would have to see it.

Dave,
x-mold :eek:? Isn�t JK Aviar X made from the regular Driver mold (Big bead) even if it says "Putt & Approach" on teh hotstamp?

mf100, yes. To clarify: the driver mold is the X mold. All aviars are classified as putt & approach.

Thanks Dave, heres a picture of the disc:
Pro Line JK Aviar X (http://www.discgolfvalues.com/images/JKX130.jpg)
It looks identical to my old 3x JK Pro, but its made out of much firmer plastic...
Also, what is the difference betweent the x mold and a regular big bead?
Thanks again!

crdiscgolfer, Looks like a first run. No difference usually. However the big bead could be used with the putter mold or non x mold.

That is a 1st run JK AviarX, I still have a few of them, not as soft as the other JK Aviars. Came in white and blue with the bar stamp.

Dave great job with the Pro Orcs and Beasts, I've got them at 157 & 158, I can throw 400' again. Thanks :cool:

Thanks Dave and mattdisc for answering my question! :D

hey dave, what's the classic aviar??? I hear it's a stiff plastic, is it a driver/putter big/small beads??

thanks

Dave, was wondering what is so special about 8x Rocs? Are they different from current Rancho Rocs or what? I just saw one for 130 on E-Bay! Were only a few made or what? Thanks! :confused:

jaymo, the Classic is like the original Aviar putter mold with a small bead. It is stiff and tall and flies very straight.

crdiscgolfer, I don't know. They should be the same as 10X. Kid Roc would know. You could send him a private mail.

Thanks, I'll ask him

I have had a couple of Leopards that I cant seem to find anymore... they say Pro Line on them, but they aren't like the new Pro Line Leopards. It says Ultra-Long Turning Driver on it and "Designed for Professionals". It also has a big Innova bar stamp on it. The plastic is also different from the new Pro Line Leopards. I found another old Pro Line Leopard, but it is the clear Champion like plastic. What is this plastic? What that I could find now would be like it? Thanks in advance!

There was a brief period where innova was changing the name of their candy plastic. Champion Edition (CE).....Pro Line......Champion (now). It is essentially the same plastic. Sometimes between now and then the molds slightly changed, hence the desire for CE Valk's, But with the Leopard, they have not changed to my notice. I have all three, a Pro Line Leopard, CE Leopard, and a Champion Leopard. All the same, but the CE Leopard seems to have stayed stable/straight for the longest.

Perhaps Dave can expand on that, but I believe that is the story of the old Pro Line.

Thats what I figured, but i also have another Pro Line one from around that time and it is clearer plastic, not pearly at all and it has the newer innova swoosh logo on it. This Pro Line one I'm talking about seems more like my earlier run (taffy plastic) CE Leopard, where as the other Pro Line one I have (clearer one) seems like my later run CE Leopard (clearer more current Championlike plastic)... :confused:

I actually have 2 CE Leopards (1 clear, 1 opaque), 2 ProLine Leopards (1 clear, 1 opaque) and 2 Champion Leopards (1 clear, 1 pearlescent)...

I would think if they were changing the plastic, this one would be more like the later run CE Leopards or my right before Champion Pro Line Leopard (the clearer one). Hmm...

Actually I just saw a KC Pro Eagle today that was opaque. It looked alot like the CE Eagles. I would guess it is a combination of plastics they were experimenting with.

cr, the clear Leopard was candy, just like the Champion now.

Chris, all of the variations of Leopards are due to materials and name. The mold has never changed. Any clear leopard is the equivalent of Champion, whether taffy or candy. The opaques might be SE,( which is like current Pro), or current Pro, or older CE. The softer opaques are more likely SE or current Pro, and the stiffer more likely to be Champion. You can tell by the wear pattern more easily. The nicks and tears on Champion are less jagged and smaller.

Thanks Dave! :D

Alright (one more, I feel like I've been asking you a million questions), I have 2 10x KC Pro Rocs, 1 seems to have a blunt nose like my 8x, but one seems to have a sharper nose like me 04 CE or 11x. Why is this? Is it that they're from the two different mold, or is it just an abronmality... :confused:

There are two different molds for the 10x. one is the 8x mold.this is where the term 18x roc comes from.a 10x with 8x mold.

right, i just figured that one out by looking way deep into this thread. Dave answers this question like once every few months. Guess I had to be the moron to ask the question again... Sorry Dave :D

Hi Dave, just wanted to check in again on the latest projections for the XD coming out in Pro? Is it still on the waiting list? Also curious as to what the feedbcak has been on the new Bulldog. Are people liking it? Is it used mostly as another approach? A putter? Both? Thanks in advance for your taking the time to answer questions. It is much appreciated.

step, the Pro XD is still on the waiting list. The Bulldog is being used equally as a putter and approach. But usually one or the other by each individual. I was using it for short drives. Most of the feedback would like a little softer plastic.

Au contrair.......me likey the stiff plastic...... :D

Hey dave,

My buddies and I were playing a round the other day at Hudson Mills and we found a Champion Valk with the Juliana Stamp on it and at the bottom is says " 5 time womens World Champ Juliana Korver" I thought she had only won 4 World Champioships. Is this a misprint or am i just wrong about how many she has won???

Thanks

big, she won her 5th at Flagstaff, I believe.

Juliana won the Pro Championships in 98, 99, 00, 01 and 03.

She is actually a 6 time World Champion if you count her Am Championship in 1995. :cool:

so technically discs should say 6 time PDGA world champion. :D

XD coming out in Pro?



AHHH. oh i would soo buy 30 of these. i love XDs. can never have enough XD's.

so technically discs should say 6 time PDGA world champion. :D



Do Am championships really count?

If they should count Am's, then shouldn't they count Masters, Grandmasters, Senior Grand Masters, Legends, Overall, Distance, Accuracy, DDC, MTA, Freestyle, etc.? If so, then I know a guy with about 20 World Championships. Where is his signature disc?

Shouldn't they only count Open wins?
Isn't that sorta the whole idea of Open...

Hi Dave. Could you tell me if the 1.6/1.7 runs of the EXP are pure CE or a hybrid KC/CE mix? Or something completely different? Thanks

i think a W.C. is a W.C. so therefore anyone who wins one should be considerd a world champion IMO.

Also curious as to what the feedbcak has been on the new Bulldog. Are people liking it? Is it used mostly as another approach? A putter? Both?



Barry's been using the Bulldog as his putter lately.. I find it to be like a KC Aviar with a nice feel in the hands. It is not as soft as some say, but then again it is friggin' cold here.

Dave,

Great work on the latest evolutions of Champion plastic. I just bought a new Champion Teebird and the plastic seems to have the best combination of gripiness/structural fortitude of any previous variation of premium plastic, Innova or otherwise. Any chance of a truer flying candy midrange model in the future? I really like Discraft's Buzzz, which I'm sure you're aware is simply a close replica of a Roc, but it flies truer than any of your current candy mids in my opinion. Now with Gateway's E Elements, it seems like everyone else is producing a premium plastic stable Roc-like disc except the Roc people themselves. It would be great to have one of your discs that fits this bill because your Champion plastic is my favorite and you designed the mold they are all based off of. Thanks for your consideration.

i agree with discspeed, i need a less stable roc right out of the box. for now i'll stick with SM sharks since the ontarios don't work for me..

what's the difference between SM sharks and ontario?

i think a W.C. is a W.C. so therefore anyone who wins one should be considerd a world champion IMO.

Well, considering that JK and KC discs are actually "JK <font color="red">PRO</font>" and "KC <font color="red">PRO</font> discs, it makes sense to enumerate only their OPEN, [i[i.e.[/i], "Pro" championships on their discs' hotstamps.

ontarios have a more concave/sharper bottom half.

Chase the EXPs were run in a plastic resembling the current Pro, but it was a little different.

discspeed, good idea. I think the blunt nose Roc would do fine in candy. We used it for one run of KC, but most KC Roc fans wanted the more overstable type. I am not sure this idea would fly past the USDGC committee however. We'll see.

Dave do you know what type of Aviar the CE aviars were??? putter or driver mold... I think they were small bead??

and just so I dont hav to keep asking you... how can you tell the difference b/w the driver mold and the putter? I gather the driver has a lower profile, but is this correct?

thanks alot :D

discspeed, good idea. I think the blunt nose Roc would do fine in candy. We used it for one run of KC, but most KC Roc fans wanted the more overstable type. I am not sure this idea would fly past the USDGC committee however. We'll see.



blunt-nosed candy Rocs would definitely find a spot in my bag.

on the subject of Juliana's 5 World Championships, is it still true that in the not-so-distant future all JK and KC signature discs will say World Champion and not list the number of Championships they've won?

Jaymo, the CEs were putter mold. I think some were small bead and some were big bead. The Driver mold is higher profile than the putter mold, and has a blunter nose.

Robj, I believe that is what we have gone to with the signature Champions.

discspeed, good idea. I think the blunt nose Roc would do fine in candy. We used it for one run of KC, but most KC Roc fans wanted the more overstable type. I am not sure this idea would fly past the USDGC committee however. We'll see.



That would be greatest thing ever! :D The sharp nose USDGC Rocs would still possess incredible value as an overstable partner to the blunt nose (who is going to carry only one mold ;)), and as a collector's disc with the typical cool artwork.

on the subject of Juliana's 5 World Championships, is it still true that in the not-so-distant future all JK and KC signature discs will say World Champion and not list the number of Championships they've won?




Robj, I believe that is what we have gone to with the signature Champions.



Given all the World Championships Innova racks up, it sounds like a practical solution to the hotstamping for signature discs :D

Thanks, Dave.What about a large run of the Climo/Schultz Glo Rocs? I would of loved to have one but dont have the money always when they are available, much like the USDGCs,which is why I was throwing a Z-Wasp, until it drowned in a pond.

Also, What mold{s} make up the QMS? I think these are the straitest mid range on the market in high-end plastic { opaque}and think they fly like a beat up DX Roc, or a big putter.

chase, the Qms is most similar to a Shark, but it has it's own unique flight characteristics.

Thanks, Dave.What about a large run of the Climo/Schultz Glo Rocs? I would of loved to have one but dont have the money always when they are available, much like the USDGCs,which is why I was throwing a Z-Wasp, until it drowned in a pond.



I think they made like 1500, 1550 ?

Hey Dave, Since Big bead classic aviar dont make anymore. Please bring it back!!!! I have few of them left. It beats up real fast when you keep using one putter in the bag.... DO you know any other putters similar to bb classic aviar? Also, do you have any more in the warehouse like send me the whole box of it? :DI don't know if I can call warehouse and send me the box since I am not innova dealer or something? Thanks

Dave,
Are there any more molds being considered for production using the candy glow plastic??? Personally, I love this plastic, and think it's the most like the CE was. I snatched a few of the Candy Clow Roc's and I love that disc! Also, I started throwing a Glow TL since it seems to throw truer than the non-glow one I've got. I'd love to see a full line of Candy Glow discs, whether CFR or a regular line. They are the perfect balance of grippiness, durability, and cool factor (it's pretty cool to walk through the house just after turning off the lights and see that Glow Roc lighting up the whole DG bag!).

If nothing else, I'd love to see the Firebird, Orc, Valkyrie/Beast, and Aviar in the candy glow plastic.

Joey, the closest we make now is KC Pro Aviar, but you might have to wear that one in a while.

jeterdawg, we are going to make more candy glow for fundraising. Most of those discs you named plus the Starfire will be made.

Awesome news! Thanks Dave

(PS I really hope there's a putter in that mix!)

Thanks, Dave. Its funny, as I was never a fan of the Shark.
The newest KCs are a little softer then usual, and shouldnt take much time to fly like the Classic.I think this is the best run of KCs since the 9x.

Dave, I have a worn in KC aviar (175g) that I love for putting, sometimes, however, it's a little slippery in the rain.

Anything Dx that resembles it?

thanks for all your help

Jaymo,
The harder JK Aviar-x and the DX Big Bead Grid Aviars are great in the rain.
Too bad they don't make either of them anymore. (Hint, Hint)
Cheers,
Matt

Jaymo,
The harder JK Aviar-x and the DX Big Bead Grid Aviars are great in the rain.
Too bad they don't make either of them anymore. (Hint, Hint)
Cheers,
Matt



:D:D:D:D

Dave:

What do you remember about the Cheetah II? As I remember, it was a remolded Cheetah? What can you tell me about this disc? Thanks!

jaymo, the regular JK Aviar is also good in the rain. It will also be a little stiffer in the cold weather of the rain. Basically, the JK and KC Aviars are the same mold with the same flight out of different plastics.

erik, the Cheetah 2 was a lower profile Cheetah. After trying it, we determined it wasn't anything special except a little faster.

a faster cheetah that wasn't good enough. didn't see that one coming.

Dave, Pro Eagle?

: ) :

Dave,

Great job on answering our questions!
Im a bit af a Roc collector, and this years ice bowl roc i recieved has a dome rising out of the center (big dome-about 6" accross and noticably high) is this something new? Im afraid to throw it because of that! Could this be a nice turning roc?

Roc Steady, it is an artifact of trying to improve the durability of dx. It won't adversely affect the flight of the disc. They actually fly great, but can feel funny in your hand. We have since gone back to the regular DX.

i assume there are indeed 2 teebird T molds. the older [CAL.] and newer [CA.] mold. i understand the older is stable, while the newer is deeper, more [over]stable, and possibly slower. i have heard this from a couple others and have also found it to be true, in the flights at least. i was not aware of the different molds, but i found the 11x, the earlier new champion, and the newer dx to feel slower and closer to overstable than older teebirds. i have also found a couple of my newer champion tees to be more like the older ce, ie not as [over]stable. did you go back to the older mold [CAL] recently because it flew straighter, longer? where does the cfr tl fit into this? i mean, does it share a section of the mold with the "T", that could have affected the way it flew? i will be back home [discs are there] in a month and will check all my teebird "T"s.

Has Innova ever thought of making a DG 'shoe'? If so, tell me a little bit about it. Perhaps a shoe that works in all conditions..kind of like an all-terrain shoe or one that is best for certain teepads..just curious.

thanks,
nelly

Also Dave or anyone else who knows,
I have pictures of an 88' Worlds disc that I can't identify. I own the disc. Got it from some guy about 12 years ago. The pics are on the link below. Please take a look and let me know what you think, whether its Innova or not, I don't know.

http://www.geocities.com/juglingsuns/discgolf.html

thanks again,
nelly

try the Solomon Expert GTX Low, its a really nie, really comfortable gore tex shoe and solomon sponsors some dg stuff, so why not? :D

Nelly,

It looks like a Phantom. The Phantom was a Discraft product, and they were pretty popular in the late 80s. I had a black one, once upon a time.

Chap

Hi,
it is a Phantom Plus, you�ll find at the top of this page on Steve Hartwell�s excellent site:
http://wdgc.home.comcast.net/wdgc88.html

Nelly, we have thought about a shoe, but there is no way we could compete with the shoes already on the market. I couldn't get your link to work, but if it says Innova on the engraving, it is our discs. If there is no engraving, then I would need to see it, to see if it is an early proto.

Dave, anything new coming out this summer?

chase, there is a long range driver in the works. I imagine we will have it by next summer.

Dave, I hate to ask, but how're the Dx Orcs coming??? are they done molding, thanks very much!

hey dave--did you get a chance to see my teebird question a page or so back? thanks again for all your time--steven

Thanks everyone. A Phantom + it is.
Dave I hear ya about the shoes, no worries(just curious).

happy golfin,
nelly

Looking forward to it thanks Dave.

jaymo, the Orc is in now. DX will start in a couple of days.

sorry steven, I didn't understand the question. There are two TB molds that are identical except for the engraving. We also can run Ls from either.

are there noticeable flight differences in the 2 molds? thanks again

The Dx Orc will start molding, stamping, or selling in a couple of days? Thanks :D

steven there are no differences in the molds whatsoever. Molding differences may occur for various other reasons.

Jaymo, molding. It will take several weeks to mold, stamp, and finally ship to dealer locations.

Thanks, I will never bring it up again! ;)

until they come out, then Kudos

Jaymo, how many DX Orcs are you going to buy when they come out? 4 boxes? :D

I'll bet those things will sell like hotcakes. Dave, is the Pro Orc the best selling Pro disc? Is the Champ Orc still the best selling driver?

Not really sure about the Pro Orc at the moment, but wouldn't be surprised. It will have new competition with the Pro Beast and Valk. The Champ Orc was probably our best selling candy driver, but without looking at the list, I might miss something like the Beast or Valkyrie. Lately, I wouldn't be surprised if the Sidewinder overtook it as it is new and very well recieved.

Hi Dave,

Great job on the Sidewinder. It is a great disc and has found a spot instantly in my bag and the bags of a bunch of other people I know. I was trying to force Valkyries into the role the sidewinder fits perfectly.

thank you dave--i had heard that there was some variation in the 2 molds and that was why the newer tees seem more [over]stable. thanks again. pro firebird? i think the dx firebird is a very underrated disc.

Dave, do you think that a Pro Firebird would be like the flippy KCs? I think they were 9x, maybe 10xs, and would it be a FL or FX?

Yeah, i'm gonna buy quite a few, well I know alot of my buddies are Dx fanatics, and like the Champ Orc (as do I) so we'll prob chip in and get a gross or something! :D

chase, I recently did a Pro Firebird test and it wasn't flippy like the original, but not overstable like the DX and Champion. I did the test with an L version. To me, it flew like a faster TeeBird with a little less glide.

Sweet.Thanks Dave ,Im down to two KCs so hope they hit the shelves this summer.

i would love a stable-to-slightly-overstable disc in the pro plastic. maybe a fx would do the trick, as it seems that plastic makes everything less stable

how does one go about getting hired at innova (qualifications etc...)? and how often does innova useually higher new employees? thanks.

Dave, are you going to do a run of Pro Firebirds? If so when?

what I want to know is where are the Pro Line hammers???? small mold and large mold. I cant be the only one hoping for this. I remember Dave saying that they may be in the works

Dave. why does the new pro plastic tend to make the discs less stable???

Brian, probably. I liked the ones I tested, but no final decision has been made just yet.

sandalbagger, Hammers are a low priority right now. If we run them, it will be a specialty thing. We would try to recreate the original small ones.

saint thomas, it doesn't always. Sometimes it makes the discs more stable as in the case of discs that start out unstable. Two examples of that are the Archangel and Sidewinder. Both are more stable in Pro than in DX (Archangel) or candy (Sidewinder). It's very hard to predict what each mix of plastic is going to do beforehand. Generally the very stable discs are less stable and the very unstable might be made more stable. Each disc has to be shot and tested separately.

Thanks dave.

well if you decide you want to make a run of the hammers, put me in for an order of 100!!!

Can anyone tell me about those small and large hammers? What is similar to? XD? ROC? thanks!

Dave, about the Hammers
The first version was to me a more stable version av the first beadless XD, then the XD changed it got a little bead and got really close to the Hammer.
You changed the Hammer, it got 21,7 cm diameter and it got closer to the large diameter Roc , did you use the same top as the Roc?.
Then came the 2500, what was it based on?
Then there is the big floating Hammerhead, what was it based on?

kjell, the Hammer did have the same top as the Shark or Ontario Roc. The 2500 was the precursor of the 3rd generation Hammer. The Hammerhead was loosely based on the 3rd gen Hammer, but it was its own model. I liked the Hammerhead, but it was too difficult to make. Actually, all the Hammers were difficult to make and that is what led to their ultimate demise.

Thanks Dave!

Not really an equipment question and possibly one that you have answered before. Considering the time out there on the left coast........ Do you ever freaking sleep? /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

yezzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

A little off topic. Does Innova have any plans on new minis? Have you ever thought about a driver style mini, or some new styles?

Jolly, we have thought about driver minis but have no plans for the present.

Mini Viper <font size=2>Mini Viper</font> <font size=3>Mini Viper</font> <font size=4>Mini Viper</font> <font size=5>Mini Viper</font>

:) :D :)

SO with the hammer being guaranteed unbreakable and all, would I be able to replace one that I just broke recently. The 1st one that I have broke in 10 years!!!!! just curious, since they were guaranteed.

Chris, I wasn't aware the the Hammer was guaranteed unbreakable. It is definitely hard to break, and all of our discs are guaranteed against breakage caused by defects. But we usually don't replace discs that obviously have been played with to the point of being excessively worn and obviously abused. No disc could be guaranteed for life as all discs will eventually break due to UV damange if nothing else. All that being said, if you were told by an Innova representative, that your Hammer was guaranteed unbreakable for life, we will replace it.

The hammer that I have says "guaranteed unbreakable" on it...

Dave did you make any 175g bulldogs in white? i picked up an orange one today and it is going straight into the bag. :D

The hammer that I have says "guaranteed unbreakable" on it...

They're supposed to float in water, too; or so I've been told. Guess that makes the 6 I've got defective, since I found 'em all on the bottom of Sherron Harris Lake. :)

Dave did you make any 175g bulldogs in white? i picked up an orange one today and it is going straight into the bag. :D

I've got one, so they must have made them, :D

I do recall atleast one of the Hammer stamps stating they were unbreakable, however I don't believe they were floaters..unless maybe in 150 class. If those were produced back then.

Hi ,
I think you guys are talking about the pure Hammerhead-mold, it says "Floats in water" and "Guaranteed unbreakable" on the stamp? They do float weighing about 180grams.

I was looking through some old discgolfworld catalogs and the Hammer and the Griffin both have a little statment about them being guaranteed unbreakable.

Dave did you make any 175g bulldogs in white?

nevermind that dave, i just found a couple on ebay.

Hi ,
I think you guys are talking about the pure Hammerhead-mold, it says "Floats in water" and "Guaranteed unbreakable" on the stamp? They do float weighing about 180grams.

But apparently not, if my triple-beam scale is to be believed, at lower weights, since the 6 i have are all 175g or less. :eek: :D

Dave I was just wondering how many different Champ Beast runs there have been so far?

my question...Was wondering if you could shed some light as too the colors and quantities that were made for the run of 1000 at USDGC this year. Especially the red ones and the Opaqe red ones. DISC ON Dave!

Dave, are the Wedge hammers the small mold also?

tinfoil, I believe there have been three runs, although the last just filled in missing weight ranges.

Roc Steady, you need to ask Jonathan that question. Zone Driven or Innova East.

chase, I assume you are referring to the hotstamp style. I believe they are the small type, but the larger variety came out shortly after, so I could be wrong.

I was reffering to the hotstamp, and thank you.

Dave, are the 2005 "special blend" ce rocs blunt nose rocs? i sure hope thats the deal as i want a CE roc that flies like a DX roc. :)

Paul, they're not blunt nose. These are remakes of Ontario type Rocs even though they say Rancho on the bottom. I had a chance to test one and it is just what I wanted. It is not overstable like a new DX or regular USDGC. Very straight and can be used for turnover shots or woodsy shots.

From the bottom of my heart... thank you!

Sounds very buzzz like...

Dave, why dont you make this kind of disc in the regular line-up... call it a Roc-L and make it in Pro plastic! that'd be schweet! I dont really care for champ plastic in my approach discs, but of course this is just me. :D

Jaymo,

Play in the foothills of the Appalachian Mountians and you will want all your discs to be candy plastic. DX or D plastic gouges easily on the rocky surface.

dave, that is great news. that will probably be the roc i purchase now.

jaymo, we are testing that idea.

Sweet Dave, that'd be nice... I like the way you guys have disc-L and disc-X which are just modified versions, it makes sense. I love the new pro plastic aswell.

dave,
I have 2 smallbeads - one white with "rocket city chain gang" stamp for Lavone Wolfe - PDGA #580
and one grey "great disc golf holes of the world" stamp.

how old are these?

t-mojo, the great holes of the World may only be a few years old, or up to ten years depending as the stamps were not done all at once. John Houck would probabably know exactly. The other stamp may be a recreation or very old. Compare the underside of each disc to the other. If they look the same, they are probably the same relative vintage. If there is a distinct two concentric ring pattern on the Lavonne disc, it is much older.

Hi dave, just wondering what the status is on the greatest overstable disc you's guys put out...THE RAM!
a buddy of mine got me into them and i've heard several times that they've gone in and out of production.
thanks
the truth #23474

Candy RAM!!!

: ) :

troof, we still produce the DX Ram X. Ocassionally, we might run special runs of Candy Rams too.

Dave, where might one be able to get a candy ram if interested?

: ) :

Dave i just wanted to thank you for making disc golf easier and evolving the sport into what it has become today. and keep it up Dave!

Also, i was wondering if you were ever going to create a Starfire other then the specialty ones for tourneys? Some form of mass production.

Thanks again Dave!

troof, we still produce the DX Ram X. Ocassionally, we might run special runs of Candy Rams too.


candy rams eh'? have you ever tested one?

Tuck, Carolina Flying discs or Zone Driven might be able to help you or direct you to a dealer.

Justin, we are thinking about a Pro Starfire.

Sorry troof and Paul, I was thinking about the candy Viper. We just have DX Rams.

Dave,
what about Pro Valkyrie, is it on the way??

Pro Starfire :D :D :D :D, yes, release it as fast as possible!!!!!

Do you think you will make a new plastic withine the next few years?(I'm just wondering cuz I'm bored, I love your current plastic.)

mf100, it's up next. Should be available by March.

Schaff, we are always experimenting, and looking for better plastics, so it's likely.

If there is a distinct two concentric ring pattern on the Lavonne disc, it is much older.



how much older?

t_mojo, it would be somewhere between 10 to 20 years old. The specific hotstamp could narrow it down, but I don't have any information regarding that.

Should I try and contact Lavone? - if so PM me the contact info.
Otherwise, who should I try to get the info from?

Ask ParkN2Putt...Hes always talking about those discs.

t_mojo, try the collectors. There are a lot of collectors that know much more than I do about specific hotstamps. Sorry, I don't have any contact information, but there are collector threads on this forum. You could post an inquiry there.

Dave, theres a thread going about Barrys new disc. Any light you can shead on the subject.

We haven't made any decision about a second signiture disc for Barry yet.

I have a white champion 169 gr Orc that has been in contact with pine sap and was not completely cleaned off....it appears the sap has soaked into the plastic and left blotchy dark brown stains that are the size of dimes to half dollars...and it has also done the same thing to other colors , but not as bad as the white one...there is some stains on the edge that have soaked completely through the rim of the Orc.....

"I have Discraft discs that have done the same"

Does this change the weight of the Disc....

Dave,

What's the status on those Pro Line Firebirds?

Hamm

woody, if it changes the weight, it would be very little, but I don't really know.

Josh, they are up next after DX Firebirds, which are running now.

Are the new pro ryhnos going to be soft like the first ones?
I've seen some that were stiff as dx and some like jk aviars.

Josh, they are up next after DX Firebirds, which are running now.


great news dave! :Dany chance you'll be making some dark green and/or dark red pros? thanks again

Have you seen the new canvas jacket from Columbia?
The ROC!!
Seriously, I saw the ad in the new issue of Men's Health.
:confused:

they have ROC pants/shorts as well.

Hi Dave,
which Firebird-mold are you using for the Dx and Pro, FX or .....

good day dave,

heard dx orcs were out or about to be.
So the avair proto disc was made from wood, what do you make protos with today? metal? plastic? :confused:

Oh, the day that I see a CFR Ram...........man, I'm drooling just thinking of the idea.
Dave, what's the criteria that a disc is deemed a "go" for CFR production (like the Ram)?
*hint hint* would there have to be some kind of following on a...lets say, a discussion board from all those Ram men and women out there?

troof

ryan, there are several variations, but the last run was soft, but not as soft as the SE version.

paul, red yes, green no, unless it is a transition from blue to yellow.

mf100, we use the regular (X) version for the DX and Champion. We will use the L version for Pro. All of the L versions have been holding up better for Pro, so we are likely to do all Pro drivers.

master, the Aviar proto was lathed out of a hard plastic. We usually don't make protos anymore. If we did, it would be out of plastic.

troof, I have been given the go ahead to make a small run of candy Rams, but I don't think it is possible. Most likely it would weigh too much. Don't hold your breath. If it does happen, they would probably go into the CFR program.

This is to help people find the last post for the Question for Dave thread

Thanks for the info dave!
I'll be anxiously awaiting the day (if it comes)!

keep up the good work and fight the good fight!

dave , I have a ce valkyrie that is transluscent white, I was wondering what run it is as someone speculated that it might be first. Any help in identifying would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks

Chef,

I remember all of the 1st Run CE Valks as being red, blue, or purple. The majority of them were red, there were some blue ones, and a very small number of purple ones. I don't remember seeing any white ones, until run #2 (the flat tops)

Chap

thanks Will.

chef, I would agree with John, whites were in the 2nd run, not likely in the first. Could be third too. Flats are 2nd.

Dave, was wondering about the new "special blend" cfr rocs, someone posted a pic of them in the 05 Roc thread and they are opaque and look like the early ce stuff... are they like the early run ce plastic? and if so, are other discs going to come in "special blend" plastic? :) thanks in advance!

The 05 BLUE Champ ROCS are DOPE! I can't wait to have one!

Dave why do my Champion FireChickens keep going in the basket? Did you add a magnetic ring inside the rim? Its getting hard to make birdies with my Champ FireChickens because the **** basket keeps getting in the way.

3 FireChicken Aces already this year!

:D

crdiscgolfer, the plastic is almost identical to the other USDGC Rocs. The mold is different and the flight characteristic is different from the overstable Rancho. Although the special run says Rancho, it is actually an Ontario. I believe the "special blend" was referring to the parts and color, rather than the plastic.

Kevin, you're not supposed to tell anyone about the magnets in our plastic. Congrats on your aces. See you at the Memorial.

Dave (or anybody that knows), I know you have been asked this before but what are the different roc molds named for? Is it just the cities that the discs were pressed in? What is the difference in the molds?

Rocco, the molds are named for the engraving on the bottom side of the Roc. San Marino and Ontario are the same mold with different engraving. The Rancho Cucamongo mold is newer. The Rancho Rocs tend to be more overstable. The San Marinos were stable and straight. Some of the Ontarios were not quite stable, but that was more material and molding than it was the mold itself.

that's strange dave. i notice the san marinos also seem to have less of a bead than the ontarios. maybe that is an effect of the plastic also though?

dr evil, the bead has never changed.

Davie i know that you know alot about discs (lol)understament
but do sell older disc on the side? you can pm me with the answer if you like.

Dave, I recently heard that the 1st run of Sidewinders includes both the mini-star stamp, and the regular banner stamp. Is this true? Also, can you tell us about how many of the mini-stars are available and if you will print more? They are cool.

Dave, i lost a champ beast early last summer (june/july). I thought i was in the bottom of a creek but it happened to hit a branch and go straight down into a bit of a crevase. My friend just found it (about 7-8 months later) in the same crevase.

The stamp is completely gone.

But my name and number on the inside rim in sharpie is still there.

What is the stamp made up of (ink, paint, etc.)??
i used to work for a flexographic printer and i have never heard of this kind of wierd situation.

BTW: The disc is now sweet! It was almost brand new when i lost it (one week or so) and now it is perfectly broken in but without the damage it typically takes.

Thanks Dave!

thruth, I don't sell anything personally, nor do I have old stuff, but there are lots of others who do. Possibly, someone else on this message board knows about them. Rick Neil in Tulsa, and Stan Korth of Oaklahoma City are two older dealers than come to mind for me. I don't have any contact, but they were two of our biggest dealers in the past.

Boneman, we are not going to print anymore, and I believe we printed at least 2000. Could have been as many as 6000.

Justin, the colors in the foil are differing depending on whether or not it is a metalic, flat, or glossy. Also, the sizing that goes with the foil and is supposed to make it adhere differs from foil to foil and can be ordered differently too. So, I can't answer your question directly. But, it appears that the sizing was faulty for being out in the weather.

Dave, is there any future plans or a Champion XD? I think it would be a great disc.

Rick Neil can be found on eBay, discflights, that's also his shop in Tulsa. He's been selling Vintage disc's on eBay. I bought some very rare Brand X's from him last year.

If you want old discs you've got to hit a Fly Mart or go to eBay.

Stan Korth, has he a webshop or...?

Nytrain, none right now. It's possible we might do a short special run just for fans, but not likely a continual run.

mf100, I don't know what Stan is doing these days, but he was a big dealer in the 80s.

Thanks Dave, maybe the Champion XD could be a CFR disc.

Yea! special "old school" CFR runs for us Old Skool huckers.
XD's, Ram's, maybe even Ravens...the popularity of those "ol' timers" would probably sell out faster than strokes are added to my score on water holes.

Torque resistance revisited...the ability of a disc to overcome off-axis torque at release.
Dave, how do you rate your newer discs (Monster, Beast, Orc, SW, etc) in your estimation of torque resistance? Any other comments in this realm should open up some meaningful DISCussion... Thanks!

circle 2, the Monster, Orc, and Beast are all very torque resistant. The Sidewinder is slightly less so, but still has good torque resistance compared with our earliest disc, the Aero. Torque resistance comes from three areas. Two go to angular momentum. The heavier the disc, the more torque resistance. I don't know the physics for this, but by observation and experience, it seems to be so. The more mass in the rim versus the flight plate, the more torque resistance. This is a physics based fact. The last is aerodynamic. Overstable discs seem to have more torque resistance. This is an observation, not a physics based fact.

By torque resistance, do you mean the ability of a disc to dampen down off-axis torque which would otherwise cause the disc to turn, crash, and burn?

When a disc flies well even if the torque it's thrown with is off-axis, does all of the off-axis torque get transferred into distance without any energy loss, or does a disc thrown with on-axis torque still fly better than one with off-axis torque no matter how good a disc design is at dampening the off-axis torque?

The heavier the disc, the more torque resistance. I don't know the physics for this, but by observation and experience, it seems to be so.



Would that be due to greater mass requiring greater energy to be worked upon or moved, or am i oversimplifying?


This is an observation, not a physics based fact.



is it true that according to the laws of aerodynamics -- a bumblebee should not be able to fly because it has too much mass for its wings?

on a related note, do you find your disc experience and intuition is a more useful tool in disc design than merely going by physics?

Just wondering, but about how many Eleven Time "Smokey Black Transparent" Champion Edition Firebirds were run??

And was that amount less than other transparent runs? Basically what i am getting at is how rare that disc actually is..

Rob, yes, by torque resistance I mean damping out wobble of the disc at release. I would say that none of the off axis torque gets transfered into distance, but that there is an actual loss of distance due to added wind resistance. The value of torque resistance is to salvage poor throws that would otherwise crash and burn.

robj, to your second questions: Yes, I believe the wobbling of the heavier mass takes more energy, therefore it either wobbles more slowly or adds to centrifugal energy. I don't really know. And, I find my experience and knowledge of disc flight and aerodynamics come together to provide my intuition/epiphanies, which I then experiment with to see if I am right. Not only have I heard that bumblebees can't fly, I have also heard that lift is generated by the curve on the top of a wing. Both probably not true.

Nelly, I can't tell you the number. But they are relatively rare. Probably less than several boxes.

robj, to your second questions: Yes, I believe the wobbling of the heavier mass takes more energy, therefore it either wobbles more slowly or adds to centrifugal energy. I don't really know. And, I find my experience and knowledge of disc flight and aerodynamics come together to provide my intuition/epiphanies, which I then experiment with to see if I am right.



i'll bet serendipity often plays a role too. it sounds very cool. and of course your epiphanies are internationally appreciated


Not only have I heard that bumblebees can't fly, I have also heard that lift is generated by the curve on the top of a wing. Both probably not true.



:) :D

Robj, to be less obtuse, lift may be generated as much or more by reaction, than by the curved top. Balsa winged toy airplanes and paper airplane do fine without curves.

Lift is generated by the curve. Forcing the same amount of air over the longer curve of the top of a wing at a faster rate lowers the (pressure, downforce?) which lifts up on the wing. This is why you see leading edge slats and flaps extend on jets when they land, to generate more lift at a lower speed.
I don't know about discs, but toy planes need to fly nose-up to achieve any type of lift.
I'm sure someone else knows more about this and will expand.

Hi Dave, I dont know if you have covered this.Why are most Innova discs clearer towards the beggining of the run? It seems like since the original Pro Line debuted the earlier runs were more clear,later runned more Pearly.I have especially noticed this in X-outs as well. I have some White X out Orcs that are nearly see through.{ a little distorted view, but can easily see through} I have also noticed this in Vikings, Valks, and from the old Pro, Beasts and Monsters.I have lots of Pro Beasts that vary form cloudy clear to almost opaque pearl.I have Orcs that are the same way.Sorry if this is something youve answered before.Thanks for your time.

I am a flight fanatic. In my studies I found that just recently, the bee mystery has been solved. Using a simple smokestream, It was found that insects create a swirling effect in the air molecules when they flap thier wings. Then they do a slight backstroke when they raise their wings up for the next stroke to put their wings attop the swirl. Then they "ride the swirl" created from thier previous stroke. passing faster air molecules over their wings' airfoils than what their actual effort would produce if not for the swirl produced from thier last stroke. Getting them more bang for thier buckin! Im working on a disc design that could produce this scavenging effect as the disc also flies with 2 edges. The leading edge and the trailing edge. (now, if i can just get a disc to backstroke!)

'nuff said!

The wings of insects aren't curved are they? How about raptors? Nature has spent a long time on flight engineering...
Can an eagle climb without flapping its wings?

Maple tree seeds helicopter well without any curve but i guess that isn't using lift(?)

Dave,l I loved your comment that the aerodynamic 'law' which suggests bumblebees cannot fly is *probably* not true :D

DAve, have you guys ever thought about making a mid-range disc with a rim as wide as say a Beast or Orc???? I think alot of people would like this idea. I know a lot of people who dont throw rocs because the rim is not wide enough. Just thought it would be a great idea.