Dave, are you surprised the Valkyrie still holds the distance record, and what newer disc(s) do you feel have the best shot at breaking the Valkyrie world record?





I am not surprised that the Valkyrie still holds the record as the record is very long. It could have been the Valkyrie or TeeBird, at the time. Of the newer discs, I would lean toward a DX model in a lighter weight. A Wraith, Destroyer, or Boss in DX.

Hey Dave,

Any chance we might see a star pig in the future. The pro pigs just beat in too fast. Dont get me wrong the pig is one great disc!



Possibly. If we did, it would be a softer type Star.

Hi Dave-any idea when you guys will do dx bosses?
thx



Hopefully, before the end of the year. I am looking forward to that one myself.

What is the difference between a Pig and a Rhyno, the bead?



The Pig is faster. It has a longer snout.

What is the difference between a Pig and a Rhyno, the bead?



The Pig is faster. It has a longer snout.



Hmmmm... According to WikiAnswers� a pig can run up to 15 mph, while a rhinoceros can run about 25 mph. So really, a Pig should be about speed 1, while a Rhino should be speed 2, if Innova were trying to be completely accurate in matching disc names to real-life speeds.

So Cheetah < TeeWrecks?

What is the difference between a Pig and a Rhyno, the bead?



The Pig is faster. It has a longer snout.



Hmmmm... According to WikiAnswers� a pig can run up to 15 mph, while a rhinoceros can run about 25 mph. So really, a Pig should be about speed 1, while a Rhino should be speed 2, if Innova were trying to be completely accurate in matching disc names to real-life speeds.



lol -- in that case:

http://www.kleemanandmike.com/comics/howtheyfared.gif

Details, Documentation:

Place Racer Top Speed (mph) Team
1 peregrine falcon 200 + birds
2 (tie) cheetah 70 cats
2 sailfish 70 fish
4 thoroughbred 45 - 50 horses
5 greyhound 43 dogs
6 Aust. dragonfly 36 insects
7 killer whale 30 sea mammals
8 Deion 23 humans
9 Nile crocodile 11 crocs
10 black mamba 7 - 10 snakes



1st Place: peregrine falcon
There is a wide range of opinion on this bird's top speed, but very few sources put the number below 200 mph. Some go as high as 280 mph. This ludicrous speed is achieved only in a dive. If you think dive speed shouldn't count, it still wouldn't change this bird's placing. Even cruising it's the fastest.

2nd Place (tie): cheetah, sailfish
Just about everyone puts the speeds for these two animals in the upper 60's

4th Place: thoroughbred *insects could possibly place fourth. See note at bottom of the dragonfly documentation
It is very difficult to find any documentation of a horse's speed without a rider. The reason is nobody GAMBLES on horses without riders so there's no reason to do any such studies. The numbers range from around 45 to 55 mph, so I feel safe placing the thoroughbred above the greyhound. Here's some sources:

"The top speed of a of a Horse is about 45 Mph (70 Kph)"
http://www.irishhorsesociety.com/horsefacts.htm

"horse can sustain a racing gallop of nearly 70 km/hr" (45 mph)
http://www2.truman.edu/~capter/jins343/week2-3.pdf
This paper is really great. Check out pg. 7 for info on horse locomotion vs. other animals

history of the Thoroughbred breed: http://www.imh.org/imh/bw/tbred.html#hist

Iowa American Quarter Horse Racing Association claims, "the American Quarter Horse rockets from starting gate to finish line at speeds up to 55 mph."
http://www.iqhra.com/

ESPN article claims "American Quarter Horses have been clocked at nearly 50 m.p.h. as they cross the finish line."
http://espn.go.com/horse/000420AQHASpecial.html

I know quarter horses are not technically thoroughbreds, but the horses could enter a quarter horse in the race if you had a problem with it. And those numbers are with a rider.

5th Place: greyhound
A lot of sources said 39 mph, some said up to 45 mph, but this article seemed thourough and placed greyhound speed at 43 mph:
http://www.fastdogs-fastfriends.com/medical_update.htm
Strangely, this same article states that, "A thoroughbred racehorse can achieve a maximum speed of around 49 kmh (30 mph)," which is pretty far off. I don't know where they came up with that number. Just calculating times from the Kentucky Derby will get you a higher number than that.

6th Place: Australian Dragonfly
Many reliable sources put Aust. Dragonfly speed at 36 mph,but there is considerable debate over reliability of insect speed data. Here's a great article on the issue from the University of Florida:
http://ufbir.ifas.ufl.edu/chap01.htm

Note: The above article believes the speed of the black cutworm moth (60 - 70 mph) to be authentic. If that is true, then the insects could conceivably finish in fourth place, ahead of horses and greyhounds. picture of the black cutworm moth: http://www.ent.iastate.edu/imagegal/lepidoptera/bcutworm/3936.106bcwormadult.html

7th Place: Killer Whale
30 mph. Originally, I had the fastest whale, the fin whale, swimming in this race. But then I thought I'd lump all sea mammals together and therefore be able to enter a killer whale, which is faster than a fin whale and way cooler. (Killer whales are members of the dolphin family) Now, I know what you're thinking. Why didn't I enter a Commerson's dolphin, which is clearly the fastest sea mammal? Apart from being less cool, the faster Commerson's dolphin at 35 mph still wouldn't have placed differently in the race.
http://www.seaworld.org/infobooks/KillerWhale/adapaqkw.html

8th Place: Deion Sanders
In his prime, my man ran about a 4.1 40. 40 yards in 4.1 seconds = approx. 23 mph

9th Place: Nile Crocodile
11 mph. Crocodile/ alligator speed is widely believed to be much higher than it really is. Even seemingly reliable sites like the Everglades National Park site claims that alligators can reach speeds of 30 mph over short distances ( http://www.nps.gov/ever/eco/gator.htm ).

Here's a thorough article on crocodile locomotion and top speed (from University of Fl):
http://www.flmnh.ufl.edu/natsci/herpetology/brittoncrocs/cbd-faq-q4.htm
Quote from the article: "Most crocodiles can achieve speeds of around 12 to 14 kph (7 - 9 mph) for short periods, which is somewhat slower than a fit human can run. Don't believe the hype - if you're reasonably fit, you can definitely outrun a crocodile! Even faster are galloping crocodiles, and Australian freshwater crocodiles have been clocked at just over 17 kph (11 mph) over distances of perhaps 20 to 30 metres before they begin to tire."

10th Place: Black mamba
Many people claim this snake has a top speed of 20 mph, but more reliable sources put the speed arond 7 mph, possibly up to 10.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/01/photogalleries/snakes/photo9.html

"Although a mamba is fast, it rarely is able to exceed a speed of 16 km/h" (< 10 mph)
http://mysite.mweb.co.za/residents/net12980/myths.html

article on measuring speed of animals and the sundry false claims by various studies
http://www.abc.net.au/science/k2/moments/gmis9911.htm

sorry, guess that ^ last post ^ was a thread killer ...

Dave what disc selection and throwing strategy do you advise for a long, slightly downhill hole when there is a strong right to left crosswind?

ACTUALLY AVIAR X, I THOUGHT THAT YOUR POST WAS PRETTY COOL. I ENJOYED IT THROUGHLY.
AND PERSONALY I WOULD THROW A TEEBIRD HARD AT THE HOLE MAYBE A LITTLE RIGHT OF IT.

what i meant was would you throw something more or less stable than normal and also something slow or fast? also would you adjust the nose angle or throw with hyzer to catch the wind underneathe and ride on it? what would you eat for breakfast that day? should my car stereo be loud or medium on the way to the course? i need details dam.n it.

Dave is a former World distance record holder, a world champion, and also has a great deal of expertise on how to throw a disc (and perhaps just as importantly is quite good at articulating his disc golf savoire faire) so i was just trying to get this thread to tap his knowledge in those areas... that said, your thoughts are also appreciated.

i threw a hole like that today and the wind just punished my throw.

i agree, a teebird thrown with confidence will do that shot very well and more accurate than most.....

Dave-

Do you know any drills that can be done inside (w/ or w/out a disc) that help promote good form?

Thanks

I have obtained a few blue eco destroyers that are marked as eco is that correct?

The reason I ask is because they are not "minty green" they are blue.

Oklahoma Open special maybe? Or another midnight job?

Echo comes in all different colors

Dave what disc selection and throwing strategy do you advise for a long, slightly downhill hole when there is a strong right to left crosswind?



I really would have to see what I had to work with, and how much room I had to work with, and exactly how down hill and long the hole is. If, there was enough room to the right, I would throw a RHBH nose down slight hyzer with just enough disc to make it to the pin. I would choose as neutral a flyer as possible and throw to the right of the pin, if I could. Depending on the distance, I would choose anything from a putter, to a Coyote, to a Viking. Anything past this would need more and more fairway room. What I would be trying to avoid, is to let the wind push my disc down, or lift it and throw it left too far.

Dave-

Do you know any drills that can be done inside (w/ or w/out a disc) that help promote good form?

Thanks



I don't know of anything that will help for the whip, but for the power and form, you can do knee bends and side twists. I sometimes do a combination of these by doing the twists in a bent knee position with an upright body position. You can use a broom, light weights, or no weights with outstretched arms. You can specifically do this exercise for a backhand or sidearm motion using a baseball sized squishy rubber ball that you move from under your chin to totally extended as you twist and squeeze the ball with your finger pads at max extension. Again, this is only a form and power exercise, it won't help your whip rhythm. One thing you are learning with these exercises is to have a planar level motion with your arm swing. You can practice the twists with this motion keeping parallel from back to front (tee) and simultaneously bending at the waist for hyzer motion or arching your back for turn over or roller motion. You will learn to use the turn of your shoulders to power and aim your drives.

Echo comes in all different colors



Yeah...I think not...

Even though I have seen xcal's marked eco and they just DO NOT feel like my first run stamped, minty green, xcal's. To a point that I think it is a different blend, or a mistake.

This is why I was wondering and why I was asking Dave.

I think that the minty green eco plastic is THE best modern innova plastic and I would LOVE to have a destroyer in that plastic...and a TL!

How cool would that be!

Have you seen these eco destroyers DgDave?

I saw an orange one. Not as stiff or domey as the green XC's. I haven't thrown them, but they feel good

echo is not a new plastic blend, its just the old stuff in a regrind and reused, this is nothing new. other companies have been doing this for a while. if you are looking for a certain feel, then look for that, its not that echo is something completely different, its just been processed more than once, its just like the fact that some people buy all the same color champion discs so they will fly the same. echo is not a new type of plastic, and as far as im concerned, all companies should be socially responsible enough to recycle their waste anyway.

Echo comes in all different colors



Yeah...I think not...

Even though I have seen xcal's marked eco and they just DO NOT feel like my first run stamped, minty green, xcal's. To a point that I think it is a different blend, or a mistake.

This is why I was wondering and why I was asking Dave.

I think that the minty green eco plastic is THE best modern innova plastic and I would LOVE to have a destroyer in that plastic...and a TL!

How cool would that be!

Have you seen these eco destroyers DgDave?



Echo Star (Eco) comes in yellow, orange, red, blue green, blue, black/grey, and eventually purple. It doesn't count as Echo unless it is more than 50% reprocessed plastic. Not all Echo plastic is identical. Different colors may have a slightly different makeup, and depending on what is added to the base Echo material to make weight, the result might vary.

That is what I suspected.

Thanks for clearing that up.

I figured that due to the nature of the product (waste of the production process) there would not be the same plastic around to be reground at all times, thus the same type of plastic would be inherently inconsistent...depending on what you guys happen to be running or grinding.

But I would call Eco (Echo I guess) a new plastic...if....the different plastics are mixed to do it.

Is Echo a mix of star, champ, pro, and Dx?

I saw an orange one. Not as stiff or domey as the green XC's. I haven't thrown them, but they feel good



Exactly Dave, it's that stiffness and dome that I love about the first runs. The plastic is slightly tacky(er) than star as well.

I think there is Echo Star and Echo DX but I could be wrong.

Correct

I think there is Echo Star and Echo DX but I could be wrong.

But Echo Star is always star only plastic regrind and Echo DX is always only DX regrind (I assume)

will xcals be run regularly in champion plastic? as a stock disc?

i hope so. but Innova seems to find a disc that everybody loves then, they turn it into a limited run and charge more. good business, bad karma.

i hope so. but Innova seems to find a disc that everybody loves then, they turn it into a limited run and charge more. good business, bad karma.



INNOVA actually charges less for CFR discs not more!!! CFR discs are priced low so that events have the opportunity to raise funds. Sounds like good karma to me.

The club/TD is where the inflation come in to raise funds

i hope so. but Innova seems to find a disc that everybody loves then, they turn it into a limited run and charge more. good business, bad karma.



They only really limit the run and charge more for the USDGC Rocs...and the $ helps the USDGC to be what it is. The way I've noticed things over the years, the CFR program kind of does a market test on whether an existing mold would sell in a different plastic. The other purpose is to provide a limited run of discs for the few people who are in love with discontinued models or a particular mold. With the exception of the Roc, if a CFR disc is really popular it goes into full production (Champion Wraith and I'm sure there are others I'm not thinking of).

The CFR program is not for Innova but for the TDs to raise money for the players. It's apparent that a tournament stamped disc on a regular line disc model will not sell as well or for as much as a limited run disc. The only benefit Innova gets is dodging the pressure to provide cash directly for sponsorship and instead support the TD team to earn it. And it's doubtful the loss of sales by limiting early production to CFRs offsets that benefit.

is the champ xcal going to be a regular production disc?

Why was the classic aviar (grid stamp) discontinued?

thanks guys good points, ill calm down....no but seriously yall explained that better than ive heard locally...

were these locals Innova enthusiasts or people who throw from the Dark side? :D

is the champ xcal going to be a regular production disc?



I think it will at some point. From what I have been told, it is one of the most popular cfrs right now.

Why was the classic aviar (grid stamp) discontinued?



It hasn't.

Why was the classic aviar (grid stamp) discontinued?



It hasn't.



Ahh ok -- my buddy heard a rumor they were and he's been trying to stock up like crazy; has there been a delay in production or anything?

Why was the classic aviar (grid stamp) discontinued?



It hasn't.



Ahh ok -- my buddy heard a rumor they were and he's been trying to stock up like crazy; has there been a delay in production or anything?



Yes.

Dave, I am loving the Boss. I like the characteristics of this disc in the Champ plastic. It just suits this mold really well. I get a big kick out of bombing them, and so do a lot of my buddies. The glide coupled with the speed is really impressive. I was wondering about your thoughts with regards to a disc with a wide wing that was somewhat comparable to a Star SL. It seems like this large wing keeps the disc on a gliding line for a long time, which is awesome. I would love to have a disc that was flippable from hyzer, and would carry like the SL. Basically, are the forces at work with the Boss able to be de-stabilized into a really long turnover disc? I have tried the Monarch, but it doesn't seem to go anywere for me. Boss-L? KP

A Boss Monarch hybrid WOULD be awesome.

It could be run lighter too...

Does the Boss need to be less stable?

No, I like the Boss just as is. But imagine a disc with this kind of speed and glide, that could be thrown 400+ feet on a long anny line, big left to right. (RHBH) The question was more based on whether the same theory (wing width) could even be made to do this. I try not to pose closed questions i.e. "Whats the next big understable driver?". I was curious if it could be done. KP

No, I like the Boss just as is. But imagine a disc with this kind of speed and glide, that could be thrown 400+ feet on a long anny line, big left to right. (RHBH) The question was more based on whether the same theory (wing width) could even be made to do this. I try not to pose closed questions i.e. "Whats the next big understable driver?". I was curious if it could be done. KP



I am researching whether it can be done right now. So far, I have developed a lighter, slightly turning disc, but I think the problem is the nose sensitivity. It would probably take a fairly skillful thrower to master it consistently. The L type technology would not be useful with a Boss sized rim as the weight would be too much.

I was thinking more of a new disc like the Boss that can be thrown easier....or higher.

The Boss is fine.

Here is a new project idea.

How about a more stable Starfire? I have been toying with replacing the Wraith with the Star Starfire. I find the Star Starfire flies nearly identically to the good domey Wraiths....but the rim is smaller.

However, there is not a Teerex equivalent at this speed for high head winds.(the Teerex is a "tweener" between the Wraith and Max).

There is not tweener between the Starfire and Monster.

Just blunt the nose a tweak.

Very cool Dave, and thanks for the response. I hadn't thought of the weight problem. Has there been any experimenting with the size and shape of the Monarch "notch"? I was curious about what effects the depth and or location on the wing the notch would have. Neat stuff, and I appreciate you taking the time to explain some of the dynamics at work. KP

One other request.

Since the wing width thing is topped out, I would be interested in a Star Teebird that would match the profile of a DX Teebird.

The star starfires IMO is the 2nd most consistent flying disc Innova makes next to the Teebird, and is a good sub for a Teerex in that it does not fly as far.

Very cool Dave, and thanks for the response. I hadn't thought of the weight problem. Has there been any experimenting with the size and shape of the Monarch "notch"? I was curious about what effects the depth and or location on the wing the notch would have. Neat stuff, and I appreciate you taking the time to explain some of the dynamics at work. KP



I have been experimenting, but am not ready to say anything specific about my results. I can tell you that the proto Monarch wasn't as good as the released result. The Dolphin was the first of this type of design. It didn't fly too well.

No, I like the Boss just as is. But imagine a disc with this kind of speed and glide, that could be thrown 400+ feet on a long anny line, big left to right. (RHBH) The question was more based on whether the same theory (wing width) could even be made to do this. I try not to pose closed questions i.e. "Whats the next big understable driver?". I was curious if it could be done. KP



My first run Boss is getting pretty broken in and is now as flippy as a mid-beat Wraith or Pro Destroyer. The large wing combined with the gummy Champion plastic and thin flight plate will probably result in a pretty flippy disc in a relatively short time with heavy use.

Dave,

Are Champion XC's going to go into full production? I think this is the best incarnation of an FL-like high speed driver that you guys make.

Star Boss?

Thanks as always.

your boss is getting beat in? mind if i ask just what you are doing with this disc? my oldest Champion plastic disc is a original mold Starfire I have had in the bag since '04 and it has only been beat in where it will hold a anny line for about 1 year. how do you beat a disc in so quick.

: ) :

Ive got a few bosses that are allready beat to h-e-double hockey sticks one of them is now used for rollers ;)

playing at the castle will turn an excaliber into a sand wedge in 2-3 rounds

A starfire starts off a lot more stable/overstable than a Boss

your boss is getting beat in? mind if i ask just what you are doing with this disc? my oldest Champion plastic disc is a original mold Starfire I have had in the bag since '04 and it has only been beat in where it will hold a anny line for about 1 year. how do you beat a disc in so quick.

: ) :



Wider rimmed discs react more dramatically to wear so that a Champion Boss and a Champion Teebird could have identical wear and the Teebird flight will have barely changed and the Boss will fly noticably different.

Dave,

Are Champion XC's going to go into full production? I think this is the best incarnation of an FL-like high speed driver that you guys make.

Star Boss?

Thanks as always.



Champion XCals will remain in CFR for now. Star Bosses will be run as soon as we can. Not sure when that will actually be.

can't wait for the new stuff to come out... keep it up!

i may have thrown an experiment (BM) and it looks like it'll take the guys (aka... noodle arms) that normally have hard time hitting 350 well beyond 400 or more.
I tend to flip even the beefiest of discs and have a bit of D and as long as I threw w/ a lot of hyzer I was still getting decent flights out of this.

interesting addition to the line



(BM) really!?....
How do we go from the BOSS to "The Bowel Movement".
Is that a new marketing strategy?

All I know is I can't wait to throw the sh.....! out of the BM!

And can I get some extra towels please?



.

Sounds cool, though this will not be the first or last time I hear someone remark that the latest greatest incarnation will add 50 feet to your D. Dave, nice to hear that things don't always work out the way you plan either. Today was def. a Monday. Keep it up. KP

so disc speed, will boss still be your distance driver for you? and why do you throw Pred vs. Monster/Firebird?

Any info about Starfires about stability versus weight/dominess? I am hoping the Starfire is the disc that I need between the Tee-birdish and Boss-ish distances (and I want something stable like a slower Tee-Rex). I bought a 175 domey Champion Starfire because it was the only max weight available.

Wierd that I just bought it today and then noticed people were talking about it on the board.

Any info about Starfires about stability versus weight/dominess? I am hoping the Starfire is the disc that I need between the Tee-birdish and Boss-ish distances (and I want something stable like a slower Tee-Rex). I bought a 175 domey Champion Starfire because it was the only max weight available.

Wierd that I just bought it today and then noticed people were talking about it on the board.



I wouldn't characterize the Starfire to be quite as high speed stable as a TeeRex or TeeBird. It has a slightly softer stability. I have not yet noticed whether the variations in Starfire stability related to its dominess or not.

so disc speed, will boss still be your distance driver for you? and why do you throw Pred vs. Monster/Firebird?



I love the Boss. I've got my first run dialed in now and I can throw it hard for huge D. It seemed squirrely while I was learning it, but now I really appreciate the -1 high speed turn because I can take a little off the throw and the disc will still work. I'm crushing my domier ones with abandon and they will fly as far as I can throw hard--each time I feel myself get a little harder throw the disc goes a little farther. This tells me that someone who throws harder than I do could be throwing 500' hyzers with this disc. I've already heard stories of GG doing this...

Any info about Starfires about stability versus weight/dominess? I am hoping the Starfire is the disc that I need between the Tee-birdish and Boss-ish distances (and I want something stable like a slower Tee-Rex). I bought a 175 domey Champion Starfire because it was the only max weight available.

Wierd that I just bought it today and then noticed people were talking about it on the board.



I wouldn't characterize the Starfire to be quite as high speed stable as a TeeRex or TeeBird. It has a slightly softer stability. I have not yet noticed whether the variations in Starfire stability related to its dominess or not.



Thanks Dave. Mainly, I just want something more overstable than a Wraith. Probably the perfect stability would be 1/2 way between a Wraith and a TeeRex.

Dave, I know you've talked about the Discmania PD before, but can you compare is stability to a Starfire? You said you replaced both your Teebird and Firebird with the PD, so I assume it's overstable enough to throw into the stiffest winds. Does it fly straight before fading hard?

http://www.tsgnet.com/pres.php?id=357563&altf=Ebwf&altl=Evojqbdf

Dave, I know you've talked about the Discmania PD before, but can you compare is stability to a Starfire? You said you replaced both your Teebird and Firebird with the PD, so I assume it's overstable enough to throw into the stiffest winds. Does it fly straight before fading hard?



The PD is not quite as long as the Starfire, but holds up better in winds. The PD also has more torque resistance. The PD holds the angle you throw until the fade. The fade is similar to a Starfire.

[/QUOTE]

Thanks Dave. Mainly, I just want something more overstable than a Wraith. Probably the perfect stability would be 1/2 way between a Wraith and a TeeRex.

[/QUOTE]

That sounds like the Discmania DD. Distance and stability about mid way between the two.

Hi, I noticed Teebirds are in a new champion plactic now and they wear alot faster than the more clear Teebirds with 11x stamp. I will say I like them both but I need some more clear overstable teebirds. Any chance of a different run?

Dave, I know you've talked about the Discmania PD before, but can you compare is stability to a Starfire? You said you replaced both your Teebird and Firebird with the PD, so I assume it's overstable enough to throw into the stiffest winds. Does it fly straight before fading hard?



The PD is not quite as long as the Starfire, but holds up better in winds. The PD also has more torque resistance. The PD holds the angle you throw until the fade. The fade is similar to a Starfire.



Dave, if you had to compare the bottom profile to a disc, what would you compare it to? The PD sounds like what I'm looking for, but since I'm going to have to buy one to even see it, I'm trying to get an idea of how it would fly based on it's shape.

Also, how did this disk replace your Teebird? A Teebird stays very straight for a very long time for me on a variety of wing angles and velocities, and it seems like the PD would have more fade at the end.

Hi, I noticed Teebirds are in a new champion plactic now and they wear alot faster than the more clear Teebirds with 11x stamp. I will say I like them both but I need some more clear overstable teebirds. Any chance of a different run?



Yes, we run TeeBirds fairly frequently.

Dave, I know you've talked about the Discmania PD before, but can you compare is stability to a Starfire? You said you replaced both your Teebird and Firebird with the PD, so I assume it's overstable enough to throw into the stiffest winds. Does it fly straight before fading hard?



The PD is not quite as long as the Starfire, but holds up better in winds. The PD also has more torque resistance. The PD holds the angle you throw until the fade. The fade is similar to a Starfire.



Dave, if you had to compare the bottom profile to a disc, what would you compare it to? The PD sounds like what I'm looking for, but since I'm going to have to buy one to even see it, I'm trying to get an idea of how it would fly based on it's shape.

Also, how did this disk replace your Teebird? A Teebird stays very straight for a very long time for me on a variety of wing angles and velocities, and it seems like the PD would have more fade at the end.



The bottom looks like a Firebird or TeeBird. It flies in between these two for characteristic, but longer than both. I used the TeeBird for shots between 280 and 350 when I needed to maintain a line in a breezy situation. I think the PD has a slightly higher fade than a TeeBird, but less than a Firebird. The TeeBird has more carry and less speed than the PD. The PD is a much better side arm disc for me, so it was a no brainer to have the PD for the short drive, long approach hyzers. I use it as a TeeBird, Starfire, and Firebird.

Hello Dave,

Question...

Was the 1983 Eagle by Champion Discs Inc. Star Stamp...the first beveled edge disc made?

Any info would be appreciated. We're selling some and I just want to match up info I received from by bud Moose and yourself. I want to make sure it described correctly.
Below is a picture of it.

http://www.widye.com/customdyes/prodimages/m4.jpg


Thanks in advanced Dave!!

Josh

Hello Dave,

Question...

Was the 1983 Eagle by Champion Discs Inc. Star Stamp...the first beveled edge disc made?

Any info would be appreciated. We're selling some and I just want to match up info I received from by bud Moose and yourself. I want to make sure it described correctly.
Below is a picture of it.

http://www.widye.com/customdyes/prodimages/m4.jpg


Thanks in advanced Dave!!

Josh



This disc appears to be the second part of the only run of original Eagles. The first part of the run was 3000 speckled orange Eagles. The second part was 7000 total of blue 130- 140 gm, yellow 150-160 gm, 160-169gm orange, and 170 to 180 gm pink magenta. This was the first triangular rimmed disc produced. It was short lived, and was retooled within a month or so to the original Aero. The Aero was later retooled to the Phoenix.

Thanks Dave for the info.

Sorry I should of posted the bottom of the disc also...

http://www.widye.com/customdyes/prodimages/m4a.jpg

So calling it the 1st and/or beveled edge disc would be incorrect Dave?

Thanks Dave for the info.

Sorry I should of posted the bottom of the disc also...

http://www.widye.com/customdyes/prodimages/m4a.jpg

So calling it the 1st and/or beveled edge disc would be incorrect Dave?



It would not be incorrect. It was our first disc and the first golf disc designed for disc golf and not catch. It was the first triangular rimmed disc that was subsequently called bevel edged.

I used to throw a Phoenix when I was but a wee little tyke. Neat to hear some of the history in our sport. KP

Hi Dave D. Jason Southwick here and I have questions, with a prelude.

Last year I think it was, someone forwarded me your and Harold's letter you sent to the PDGA asking for some limits on wing width, and some other limits on discs, and in general a plea to define what a disc is.

It's a fascinating letter and a piece of disc golf history.

My first question: Has that letter already been posted or otherwise published?

Second question: Published already or not, may I quote from it, with a link to the complete letter, in our next Marshall Street e-column?

What I found especially fascinating about the letter, is that you were asking the PDGA to set limits on disc speed, by setting limits on, for instance, wing width. This letter also alluded to a disc that would eventually become the Destroyer, and now the Boss. The type of discs that would benefit mostly the players who already throw really far.

I'm not sure that's true, btw. I think one reason we tell beginners not to throw fast discs is that they can't yet throw the backhand anheizer.

I will say this about the Boss. We weighed dozens of them, and the weights were almost always spot on.

This letter that you and Harold wrote, though, a thing of beauty, with real thought behind it, with a big double scoop of ambivalence about the advance of disc technology.

Hey, they outlawed the super-dimpled golf ball. Maybe at some point discs will fly too far too easily, and someone should put a stop to the madness.

It was interesting how you acknowledged that faster discs further separate the strongest players from everyone else.

If this seems like a bunch of disjointed drivel consider it's three hours later here on the East Coast.

I like that letter, though. I can make a sensation out of that letter.

How about "Who's the Boss?" as a title?

Please let me know through private channels whether I can bring in the Bulgarian Mafia connection.

You may quote from that letter if you wish, as long as there is nothing said about any specific people. Only the issue. However, it is apparent that I didn't make myself clear, or even possibly misstated my position slightly. I am not opposed to discs flying farther. That was not the point, and if I said that, I was in error. I am opposed to unrestricted wide rims, and undefined equipment for a sports contest. There was no definition at the time that prevented an otherwise solid discus with one thumb hole. Additionally, I was of the opinion that the wide rimmed discs further separate the haves from the have nots in terms of big hands with big power to generate, and sustain, initial velocity. And, this opinion was mostly aimed at over head shots, that are strictly done with velocity, and not with glide. I am all for big glide. No problem.

I was surprised by the popularity of the latest additions to our line. I did not think a large percentage of players would be able to throw the Destroyer, XCaliber, and Boss. Apparently, the PDGA picked a better limit than I did. I wanted a smaller limit. However, a limit was necessary.

For some reason the wing width of the Boss is very comfortable for my grip. It allows me to fully grip the wing rather than feel like I need to stack my fingers to make up for the difference. I thought it would take some getting used to like the Destroyer, but it actually feels more comfortable to me than the Destroyer.

BTW - I do not have big hands.

BTW - I do not have big hands.



i think they make pills for that! ;)

what DD says sounds like a veiled attempt to limit the power of the thumber to me... "help help... i'm being repressed" The thumber cannot be stopped! :)

BTW i have big hands... power... and throw overhead shots (and my game still sucks!) <-- wish they made a pill for that ;)

BTW - I do not have big hands.



i think they make pills for that! ;)

what DD says sounds like a veiled attempt to limit the power of the thumber to me... "help help... i'm being repressed" The thumber cannot be stopped! :)

BTW i have big hands... power... and throw overhead shots (and my game still sucks!) <-- wish they made a pill for that ;)



I believe that Dave D. is referenceing Aerobie's Epic and the barrel roll thumber to flat flight trick shot. When I started playing and had no skills to speak of I had a strong thumber and ripped that Epic 450.

BTW - I do not have big hands.



i think they make pills for that! ;)





Don't believe the stereotypes ladies!. . . Gentlemen. . . and discspeed. :D

what DD says sounds like a veiled attempt to limit the power of the thumber to me... "help help... i'm being repressed" The thumber cannot be stopped! :)



actually if i remember correctly , Dave's concerns about discs like the Epic were that it would open the door to discs potentially evolving into being more projectiles than the kind of throwing our sport involves today. if you look at some of the reasons behind Dave creating & manufacturing the triangular rim 25 years ago it was because big guys with big arms like him were getting a distinct advantage over most players due to the ability to throw very heavy discs well and far (especially in wind) -- the beveled edge does the same trick without disproportionately giving big guys a huge advantage.
Dave was World Distance champion with an old school lid for a while btw

Dave please correct any mis-statements i may have made

takes more skill to make a disc glide than be thrown like a projectile. while i love to throw my destroyers, the pdga should have limited rim width long ago, say around the valk/firebird or at least the beast. would have made the game more challenging, i think. players would need to rely more on technique than power. it takes skill to throw a roc 300 ft., but most any am with a decent arm can throw the boss 300 ft., even with a bad throw.

I agree it takes skill to make a Roc go 300ft. I don't throw Rocs because my fingers just don't fit the disc like other peoples fingers do. I fan grip midranges like a putter, and usually use 2 fingers for drivers. I've been trying to change that to "power grips". No luck yet.

But like in ball golf... if you throw twice as far, then the same difference in accuracy (angle) equates to twice the distance from the center of the fairway...

Plus it takes a more accurate release to even keep the same angular errors...

The good news for me in ball golf is that if I could drive 300 yards regularly, I'd make it out of the rough and instead land on the next fairway over...

Remember what Uncle Ben said... "With great power comes great responsibility."

we share public parks with the public so longer more errant throws potentially spell trouble ;) weight and rim width limits are a good thing. and assymetrical rims should be illegal too because they open the door to pandora's proverbial box..

But that's also how Hope was released.

okay good Hope got out. let's put everything else back :D

im sure this question has been asked before, but I can't seem to locate it.

What discs have been made with Echostar plastic? (the dark green stuff, not the new multicolored stuff)

I own Excalibers, Rocs, and most recently a Leopard....

also... I have a first run xcaliber that has *DS written on the bottom, I compared it to destroyer mold, and it def isn't a destroyer, do they make actual echo destryoers, or teebirds, or firebirds?

if anyone knows of other molds that have been made with the darker green echo plastic and know where i can purchase them, let me know!

Kite

im sure this question has been asked before, but I can't seem to locate it.

What discs have been made with Echostar plastic? (the dark green stuff, not the new multicolored stuff)

I own Excalibers, Rocs, and most recently a Leopard....

also... I have a first run xcaliber that has *DS written on the bottom, I compared it to destroyer mold, and it def isn't a destroyer, do they make actual echo destryoers, or teebirds, or firebirds?

if anyone knows of other molds that have been made with the darker green echo plastic and know where i can purchase them, let me know!



Aviars, Destroyer, Wraith, XCaliber, Stingray, Kite, Leopard, Aero, Roc and maybe a couple others.

Dave,
This question isn't really about discs. I was just wondering how far the Ontario and Rancho Cucamonga factories were from each other. I was looking at a map of greater L.A. and noticed these towns were butted up to one another.

Thanks,
Chris Tyler

Dave,
This question isn't really about discs. I was just wondering how far the Ontario and Rancho Cucamonga factories were from each other. I was looking at a map of greater L.A. and noticed these towns were butted up to one another.

Thanks,
Chris Tyler



I think we have the same zip codes. Our present Rancho address is about 3 to 4 miles north and 2 to 3 miles east of the old Ontario address.

But that's also how Hope was released.

Hope was not released hope was all that was left.

Hi dave, any plans to run champion glo teebirds and firebirds agian? I am aware of the glo tl and fl but there just not the same. Thanks

Sunking has Teebirds, used to have FX's but I guess they are out.

Dave,
Just wanted to say thanks for answering my question and all the others you get. This Ask Dave D thread is a very good resource for those wishing to learn about Disc Golf, and discs all around. By the way, the Boss is crazy fast. I love it.

Chris Tyler

I just threw the Boss yesterday and love them. I have two 172g and threw them into a light breeze and then downwind , then at Golden Gate course. It is crazy fast, but not overstable. they turn over slightly even downwind, but hyzer back to almost come badk to the line I sent them on. I reached holes I haven't before on GG so it will be useful in my bag. Haven't rolled them yet but they have great promise for this. Will probably hold an angle on the ground for a long way. Has anyone rolled them yet? Do they flip over? Can't wait for Star and Pro plastic. Maybe more overstable so I can throw lighter ones 165-168?

Hey Joe - You should see junior throw the Boss. We played a round at Montiel yesterday then grabbed lunch to take to a new park in town. We were sitting at a high point in the park overlooking a baseball field due west of us, probably 30ft in elevation higher than the field. Junior grabbed a few discs to see if he could clear the field (I tried with a few and couldn't). Oh yeah, there was a steady 5-10mph headwind. He threw a TeeRex to test the wind - it ballooned a bit (bad release angle) and hit just short of the fence. Boss #1 was released flat with a little nose down, turned a bit then faded hard at the end, bouncing off a restroom past the baseball field, 480ft away. Boss #2 was released with a little anhyzer and nose down, glided and glided. While it was in the air we were oohing and ahhing, then junior started yelling NO! NO! NO! STOP!!! It was heading for the tot lot, 600 ft away. The disc finally faded, landing about 10 feet away from a park bench where an oblivious mom was watching her kids on the jungle gym. Boss #2 went about 580 ft, albeit downhill, but into a steady 10mph breeze.

Yeah, it can go far.

Hi dave, any plans to run champion glo teebirds and firebirds agian? I am aware of the glo tl and fl but there just not the same. Thanks



We have no immediate plans, but I believe we will run some from time to time.

When are you running Star Monarchs?

When are you running Star Monarchs?



We haven't scheduled any time to run Star Monarchs as yet.

When are you running Star Monarchs?



We haven't scheduled any time to run Star Monarchs as yet.


With all politeness intended, DO IT! NOW!

When are you running Star Monarchs?



We haven't scheduled any time to run Star Monarchs as yet.


With all politeness intended, DO IT! NOW!



Those probably won't be a general release disc yet though.

Dave,
Just got a Brown CE Teebird, I think the writing on the bottom says 180g, is this right? Did you run CE discs that heavy? Thank you.

When are you running Star Monarchs?



We haven't scheduled any time to run Star Monarchs as yet.


With all politeness intended, DO IT! NOW!



Those probably won't be a general release disc yet though.


That's quite alright as long as I can purchase them from somewhere (discgolfvalues). The only complaint I have with the Monarch is that the plastic is quite slick sometimes (with the super clear champ plastic). A Star Monarch would be one of the best discs ever.

That's quite alright as long as I can purchase them from somewhere (discgolfvalues). The only complaint I have with the Monarch is that the plastic is quite slick sometimes (with the super clear champ plastic). A Star Monarch would be one of the best discs ever.



The Star Monarch has been produced in limited numbers. It will be available soon as an exclusive 2009 Kansas City Pro/Am World fund raiser.

Dave,
Just got a Brown CE Teebird, I think the writing on the bottom says 180g, is this right? Did you run CE discs that heavy? Thank you.



No we didn't on purpose, but sometimes the molders go brain dead when they are switching from running 180 Sharks, Roc, etc. to 175 class discs.

That's quite alright as long as I can purchase them from somewhere (discgolfvalues). The only complaint I have with the Monarch is that the plastic is quite slick sometimes (with the super clear champ plastic). A Star Monarch would be one of the best discs ever.



The Star Monarch has been produced in limited numbers. It will be available soon as an exclusive 2009 Kansas City Pro/Am World fund raiser.


When is "soon"? And where can I buy them?

Not sure how soon is soon, but they will be available to all INNOVA retailers.

..... sometimes the molders go brain dead when they are switching from running 180 Sharks, Roc, etc. to 175 class discs.



:o, so you have get new molders all the time, I�m in :D;)

Yes technology is helping everyone (not just ams) throw far, but it still takes accuracy to play golf. which takes practice. An up and coming int am player wanted to play with me when i visted back how. he was all proud of his distance, saying he would kill me..... yes he threw almost as far as me with destroyers...but he was rarely if ever on the fairway for a putt.....i killed him....so come on Technology I love these new disc, but ill never forake my Roc and Teebrid accuracy...but combine those with a few high speed Drivers and wow..

The Star Monarch has been produced in limited numbers. It will be available soon as an exclusive 2009 Kansas City Pro/Am World fund raiser.


I heard it might have the super duper bestest stamp ever. Just a rumor I heard though.

Dave,

I can't start a new thread for some reason, so I'm hoping you can answer this. I was just curious about the signed Boss that USDGC VIP's are supposed to receive. Not trying to hassle anybody, I was just curious when I should expect it.

After the Last round was over, there was a line at the clubhouse for these people. You stood in line, and they crossed you off their list, and you got to walk in and Nate was sitting on the couch signing discs. You got to talk to him and he signed a Boss for you and then you walked out of the clubhouse. I think you were supposed to pick them up that day. It wasn't explained very well.

I filled out a piece of paper in the clubhouse and they said that the disc would be mailed in the week following the USDGC. Surely they wouldn't expect people to wait around in line to get there disc. If they did I wish it was explained better and I hope I can get the disc still. That's the only real perk to purchasing the VIP.

does nate throw for innova now?

No Nate does not throw Innova discs he just signs the VIP Bosses as it is his duty as USDGC champ.

I have a VIP voucher also for a signed Boss, I have been trying to wait patiently for mine to come in the mail as well. It does say on the receipt "Please fill out this form and turn it in at the Pro Shop to ensure that you get your autographed Champions disc. We are collecting the following information solely for the purpose of shipping your autographed Champions disc to you."

Seems pretty straight forward to me are they indeed being shipped?

Dave, did you retool the OLF for more stability?

I was told by an ex-employee of Millennium that the new runs will be OLX.

how does the amount of dome affect the star wraiths?


i always thought they should keep the ols and olf and add an olx.

i always thought they should keep the ols and olf and add an olx.



Agreed! /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Domey is more predictable, stable, and little slower with more glide.

Flatter is more squirrely in general and faster.

I filled out a piece of paper in the clubhouse and they said that the disc would be mailed in the week following the USDGC. Surely they wouldn't expect people to wait around in line to get there disc. If they did I wish it was explained better and I hope I can get the disc still. That's the only real perk to purchasing the VIP.



I am not in the direct loop for this, but I was told that they are being signed now. For a more definitive answer, I think Jonathan Poole can be contacted through zonedriven.com.

Dave, did you retool the OLF for more stability?

I was told by an ex-employee of Millennium that the new runs will be OLX.



We can run them however John Houck requests them at this point. We recently came across a way to make all of the drivers we mold more stable if we want to.

do tell....

I was told by an ex-employee of Millennium that an OLX test existed, that this mold was used for 1.2 MOLF, and that new runs could possibly be this modified OLF mold.


fixed :confused:

I'm interested to hear about this stabilizing technology too! Insta-dome?! Speedy-plast?!

Also, plastic on the 1.2 MOLF was **fantastic**. I hope it's indicative of a trend in Pro plastic. Nice and Champy-feeling, for a Pro disc.

I'm interested to hear about this stabilizing technology too! Insta-dome?! Speedy-plast?!

Also, plastic on the 1.2 MOLF was **fantastic**. I hope it's indicative of a trend in Pro plastic. Nice and Champy-feeling, for a Pro disc.



I should have said we found out how to make Champion and Star as stable as we want. I don't know if it will apply to regular Millennium. Quantum and Sirius, yes.

No Nate does not throw Innova discs he just signs the VIP Bosses as it is his duty as USDGC champ.

I have a VIP voucher also for a signed Boss, I have been trying to wait patiently for mine to come in the mail as well. It does say on the receipt "Please fill out this form and turn it in at the Pro Shop to ensure that you get your autographed Champions disc. We are collecting the following information solely for the purpose of shipping your autographed Champions disc to you."

Seems pretty straight forward to me are they indeed being shipped?



My Buddy and I picked ours up there, but they crossed us off a list. Maybe they shipped to those who didn't pick them up there. That would make sense.

Hey Dave I was curious on the Champ Archangel vs the DX Archangel it says that the dx is S:8 G:6 T:-4 F:1 I was curious to what the champ version of this disc would be because I have thrown it a few times and can def tell that it is stable so i know that it does not have a turn of -4. Any information would help.

Dave, could this new way of stabilizing a disc be applied retroactively? I.e. applied to existing molds? Or is it more of a "from this time foward" design development? You have piqued my, and certainly others' interest. KP

Dave,
I love that you are coming out with more and more Innova accessories. Next, I think you should come out with a beach towel and a Back Pack type bag. Just a suggestion. Thanks for reading everything.

Hey Dave I was curious on the Champ Archangel vs the DX Archangel it says that the dx is S:8 G:6 T:-4 F:1 I was curious to what the champ version of this disc would be because I have thrown it a few times and can def tell that it is stable so i know that it does not have a turn of -4. Any information would help.



Only the DX version has a turn of -4. Otherwise the turn is about -1. We only make the DX for regular distribution. The others are in CFR.

Dave, could this new way of stabilizing a disc be applied retroactively? I.e. applied to existing molds? Or is it more of a "from this time foward" design development? You have piqued my, and certainly others' interest. KP



It will be applied to existing molds. No mold changes are necessary.

what is it, a small bead at the bottom?

im sure its just a monitoring or controlling of the cooling process or an operation that assures the raising or lowering of the wing angle. the same things that cause variation in all the discs, just a procedure that does it on purpose.

Hey Dave I was curious on the Champ Archangel vs the DX Archangel it says that the dx is S:8 G:6 T:-4 F:1 I was curious to what the champ version of this disc would be because I have thrown it a few times and can def tell that it is stable so i know that it does not have a turn of -4. Any information would help.



Only the DX version has a turn of -4. Otherwise the turn is about -1. We only make the DX for regular distribution. The others are in CFR.



Dave I have often wondered that myself, many find that a DX disc has one Flight Characteristic and a Pro may have a slightly different one, and a Star or Champion may be even more slightly different.

Any thinking about making Flight Characteristics based on plastic type?
I.E. (my numbers are generic not actual or opinion)
Wraith
Dx -3
Pro -2
Champion -2
Star -1

P.S.
Thanks for all your time answering these comments on this board, I know you are a busy man and I greatly appreciate your time.

im sure its just a monitoring or controlling of the cooling process or an operation that assures the raising or lowering of the wing angle. the same things that cause variation in all the discs, just a procedure that does it on purpose.

That's what I suspect as well.

Dave any way we can get some glow Bosses for the CFR? We would like to have some by the 2009 Ice Bowl. Thanks for any help.

Hi Dave, I have a couple Ontario Glo Rocs from Brian Cumming's collection. He thinks they are real old but I am not sure. I added a link to a pic of the disc. Can you help me date it?
Thanks
Bart
http://www.discgolfflymart.com/innova-1989-ontario-glo-1989179.html

those were just run (last year or 2 yrs ago)... although i have heard they are kind of rare still (i have 2 myself)

I have an original ontario with that stamp, but they did do the rereleases with it aswell

is there truth to the persons claim in the link above that "Ontario mold Rocs did not exist in 1989" ? (i would guess not if you have one eh dgdave? ;)

Dave any way we can get some glow Bosses for the CFR? We would like to have some by the 2009 Ice Bowl. Thanks for any help.

I am guessing since it's hard to keep the weight legal for the boss mold, as it is such a high volume disc, that it might be too difficult to add enough glow and still keep the weight legal.

The ontario roc didn't come out until 93ish. That stamp came out in 89. It was also on sannies and ranchos.

Dave, could this new way of stabilizing a disc be applied retroactively? I.e. applied to existing molds? Or is it more of a "from this time foward" design development? You have piqued my, and certainly others' interest. KP



It will be applied to existing molds. No mold changes are necessary.



Dave,

So, you did not change the OLF mold? I am confused.

So is the Ontario ROC with the 1989 stamp a recent re-issue/release as opposed to an older and perhaps more valuable disc?

http://www.discgolfflymart.com/innova-1989-ontario-glo-1989179.html

Dave any way we can get some glow Bosses for the CFR? We would like to have some by the 2009 Ice Bowl. Thanks for any help.



Our schedule is proabably not going to allow it.

So is the Ontario ROC with the 1989 stamp a recent re-issue/release as opposed to an older and perhaps more valuable disc?

http://www.discgolfflymart.com/innova-1989-ontario-glo-1989179.html



That stamp is an east coast issue. You probably are going to have to ask them about that. I am not sure what was the first year of the Ontario vs San Marino big Roc. I think 1987 was the San Marino big Roc. The original Roc is not listed in the PDGA, but I recall it came out before the Canadian Worlds. Apparently the issue dates for the PDGA list are unreliable.

The Canadian worlds was 1987, so the first Roc at 175gm max came out shortly before this. Maybe at the end of 1986, but the San Marino 180 couldn't have come out until probably 1988. This places doubts on the first date of the Ontarios being before 1990 something.

The ontarios with that glo stamp are from the originals and the reissues. So you'll just have to take the guys word for it. If he's had it for more than 1 1/2-2 years it would be an original

Dave-
does the groove have a notch out of the rim like the monarch? how did these test for you?
thanks

Dave, could this new way of stabilizing a disc be applied retroactively? I.e. applied to existing molds? Or is it more of a "from this time foward" design development? You have piqued my, and certainly others' interest. KP



It will be applied to existing molds. No mold changes are necessary.



Does this mean a Champion Whippet XX is possible? That would have to be the most overstable disc ever. What a great time for a new run. :D

Dave, could this new way of stabilizing a disc be applied retroactively? I.e. applied to existing molds? Or is it more of a "from this time foward" design development? You have piqued my, and certainly others' interest. KP



It will be applied to existing molds. No mold changes are necessary.



Does this mean a Champion Whippet XX is possible? That would have to be the most overstable disc ever. What a great time for a new run. :D



A more overstable Champion Whippet would be so overstable it would simply corkscrew.

This does raise an interesting point Dave. Will there be significant changes in existing molds to warrant new nomenclature? KP

Dave-
does the groove have a notch out of the rim like the monarch? how did these test for you?
thanks



The groove in the Groove is similar to the notch in the Monarch. Testing is still going on. The Groove is not like the Monarch. It seems to be just a driver rather than a driver/roller like the Monarch. My big arm testers couldn't roll any farther than they could air, however they could air it quite far. I see it as a complement to a Boss or Destroyer that flies fairly straight when thrown on a slight hyzer. Upwind requires more hyzer. Nose angles are critical to accuracy. This disc won't be available until next year.

This does raise an interesting point Dave. Will there be significant changes in existing molds to warrant new nomenclature? KP



If you mean nomenclature designating significant changes to the flight characteristics of existing models, maybe. No changes are scheduled to be made to the molds that produce the models. Only some models would benefit significantly by being more overstable. I would like to see a slightly more stable Starfire, Orc, TeeBird or Eagle. Definitely would like to see a more consistently overstable TeeRex. A really stable version of a Wraith, Destroyer, and Boss would be nice. I'm not sure this stabilizing process would even work with discs that are already overstable like Whippet Xs.

So is the Ontario ROC with the 1989 stamp a recent re-issue/release as opposed to an older and perhaps more valuable disc?

http://www.discgolfflymart.com/innova-1989-ontario-glo-1989179.html


The date on the stamp is simply when the stamp design was copyrighted, not the date the disc was produced. It is possible to have a Sanny, an Ontario and a Rancho with the same stamp design showing the same date. Once again merely when the stamp was copyrighted. I've got Ontarios being run from late 93 through 97.

My friend that owns the Glo ROC stopped by yesterday and indicated the 3 he gave me were at least 10 years old. As his PDGA number is sub 2000 and other discs involved were Kitty Hawks to 8 Time ROCs I tend to believe him. This is a really amazing collection I will be putting up for grabs in my store over the next few months....

[quote I'm not sure this stabilizing process would even work with discs that are already overstable like Whippet Xs.

[/QUOTE]

Thanks Dave. I can always dream. Another run of regular Champion Whippet Xs is fine. ;)

The ontarios with that glo stamp are from the originals and the reissues. So you'll just have to take the guys word for it. If he's had it for more than 1 1/2-2 years it would be an original



I really think a re-release with the same stamp is making it soo easy for people to get ripped off.

is there any way to tell the difference between an original throw in the dark and the ones with the same stamp recently produced?

The plastic feels different. I think that's about it

The plastic feels different. I think that's about it



what is the difference?

The only good way to tell is if you have them side by side. Then it's easy to feel the difference. The only real problem is with the Ontario Glow's with the old stamp b/c they look exactly the same. You can also run into differences with the innova swoosh stamp on the Rancho's b/c the older ones feel different than the new ones. Personally, I would say the new ones feel smoother and are actually stiffer than the old glows(except maybe really old glow Sannys). I just picked up two new Glow Ontario's and they are insanely stiff. Any older stamps (mini star and earlier) are the 'older' glow plastic. I'm not sure how many variations there are of the older glow plastic but it feels better than the new stuff in my opinion. I've stocked up on tons of old glow ranchos.

Hey Dave,

The latest Pro plastic seems a lot like Star plastic, I cant get it to break-in and its just super overstable...... is something different?

Thanks

Hey Dave,

The latest Pro plastic seems a lot like Star plastic, I cant get it to break-in and its just super overstable...... is something different?

Thanks



It's a new blend compared with two years ago or more.

Does the new DX Sanny Roc have a thicker flight plate than the DX Rancho?

Or is the Sanny DX just that awesome?

If it is the latter, when can we get Sanny DX Ranchos?

What Innova molds will be legal for the new Super Class events that the PDGA is offering?

Does the new DX Sanny Roc have a thicker flight plate than the DX Rancho? No

Or is the Sanny DX just that awesome? Yes

If it is the latter, when can we get Sanny DX Ranchos?



I don't understand the last question.

What Innova molds will be legal for the new Super Class events that the PDGA is offering?



Apple (out of production) Hero 235, Pulsar, Super Nova, Zephyr

Does the new DX Sanny Roc have a thicker flight plate than the DX Rancho? No

Or is the Sanny DX just that awesome? Yes

If it is the latter, when can we get Sanny DX Ranchos?



I don't understand the last question.



I was saying if the Sannys are made out of a new DX, when can we get DX Ranchos made out of the DX that was used to make the Sannys?

Hi Dave,
I have a 'Hero Disc' from the 2001 World Games. It is a 150 driver but I'm not sure what wing it is....do you know what sponser discs were available?

Thanks,

Is it a Cheetah? I think I have a 150 cheetah with that stamp.

Dave,

Any chance we'll see another run of Pro Orcs in the near future? Excellent disc for us small-handed guys :)

Have a happy Thanksgiving!

How about a Pro Starfire X?

Dave,

Any chance we'll see another run of Pro Orcs in the near future? Excellent disc for us small-handed guys :)

Have a happy Thanksgiving!



We are probably not going to run Pro Orcs, but we might be making them for another brand. Happy Thanksgiving to you, too.

How about a Pro Starfire X?



No Pro Starfire X, but we are looking to do an Xtra stable Starfire in Champion.

Hi Dave,
I have a 'Hero Disc' from the 2001 World Games. It is a 150 driver but I'm not sure what wing it is....do you know what sponser discs were available?

Thanks,



Sorry, I don't know.

Dave,

Regarding the pro Orc, would this other brand possibly be Discmania?

Thanks!

Dave,

Regarding the pro Orc, would this other brand possibly be Discmania?

Thanks!



No (Millenium)

Dave,

Regarding the pro Orc, would this other brand possibly be Discmania?

Thanks!



No (Millenium)


:eek: :) :D
Same mold and everything, or new mold that flies similarly?

Speaking of Orcs, can't wait to see the more stable version you mentioned a few pages back. I'm anxious to see how the new "process" affects this already awesome mold!

:eek: :) :D
Same mold and everything, or new mold that flies similarly?

Speaking of Orcs, can't wait to see the more stable version you mentioned a few pages back. I'm anxious to see how the new "process" affects this already awesome mold!



Same mold and everything. I am also anxious to see a more stable Champion Orc.

New Pro Orcs by any other name will be as sweet! Happy ThanksGiving! :D

will Millenium rename them and what would you guess as an ETA? :p

New Pro Orcs by any other name will be as sweet! Happy ThanksGiving! :D

will Millenium rename them and what would you guess as an ETA? :p



I don't even know if Millennium is interested. I offered several weeks ago, and they have not accepted.

If Millenium accepts, would Innova continue to sell Champ and Star Orcs and Millenium would just have Pro?

If Millenium accepts, would Innova continue to sell Champ and Star Orcs and Millenium would just have Pro?



It could work several ways. But right now, it's status quo.

New Pro Orcs... will Millenium rename them..?


i could only hope that they'd make it the MORC :D

Hi Dave-
Will 150 dx bosses be ready in time for xmas?
thanks

Hi Dave-
Will 150 dx bosses be ready in time for xmas?
thanks



Nope. Maybe by early next year.

Dave, is there any chance you can make a run of golf weight Condors? My dad uses them for thumb rollers and his stash is down to just one! I would like to get some for him but don't want to spend $40-60 for a DX disc.

Anyway I know you would make a lot of older guys happy and maybe I could get Don Wilchek back out playing.

Contact Greenwell and see if he's willing to part with any.

Contact Greenwell and see if he's willing to part with any.



I don't think he would like me giving it to a superior thumb roller-er. :D

Dave, is there any chance you can make a run of golf weight Condors? My dad uses them for thumb rollers and his stash is down to just one! I would like to get some for him but don't want to spend $40-60 for a DX disc.

Anyway I know you would make a lot of older guys happy and maybe I could get Don Wilchek back out playing.



We are having the mold that runs the Zephyr and Condor fixed and will be able to run both fairly soon. The Zephyr is first. Hopefully, we will be able to make them in DX and Star or Champion.

Same mold and everything. I am also anxious to see a more stable Champion Orc.




When you do run these will they be marked different so customers know the difference?( I am not asking just about the Orc, but all discs you try this with)

thanks!

Star Zephyr sounds fun :D

...even better if it had the same stamp. It's one of my absolute favorites!

A tweeked Teebird would ROCK!!! Kinda like a seasoned Firebird with a ton of glide

Same mold and everything. I am also anxious to see a more stable Champion Orc.




When you do run these will they be marked different so customers know the difference?( I am not asking just about the Orc, but all discs you try this with)

thanks!



Most likely, these discs will be segregated into tournament availability. They will be limited edition and not part of our regular line.

Dave,

Have you ever run Star plastic Vipers? If not, will you ever? If they have been made, does anyone know where they would be available?

Thanks

We are having the mold that runs the Zephyr and Condor fixed and will be able to run both fairly soon. The Zephyr is first. Hopefully, we will be able to make them in DX and Star or Champion.



Star and Champion Zephyr :) , can I preorder the whole production :p

dave, i found a first run puma the other day at the local disc golf store. is it a mid range or a fairway driver? thanks!

http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee192/pdiddy71/IM000996-1.jpg

dave, i found a first run puma the other day at the local disc golf store. is it a mid range or a fairway driver? thanks!


I'm no Dave, but I bet it was a long range driver as it first came out in '99 but nowadays it's considered a midrange. Kind of like a more understable Classic Roc with a thumb track or a small diameter Wolf. Dave can correct me if I'm wrong.

Dave,

Have you ever run Star plastic Vipers? If not, will you ever? If they have been made, does anyone know where they would be available?

No. We probably wont, but we did run Champion. It's possible we will do that again.

Thanks

dave, i found a first run puma the other day at the local disc golf store. is it a mid range or a fairway driver? thanks!




The Puma is a mid range disc.

dave, i found a first run puma the other day at the local disc golf store. is it a mid range or a fairway driver? thanks!


I'm no Dave, but I bet it was a long range driver as it first came out in '99 but nowadays it's considered a midrange. Kind of like a more understable Classic Roc with a thumb track or a small diameter Wolf. Dave can correct me if I'm wrong.



You might be thinking of the Pegasus. The Puma probably was a fairway driver when it came out.

A tweeked Teebird would ROCK!!! Kinda like a seasoned Firebird with a ton of glide



Have you ever thrown an 11x Champion Teebird? They are as you describe.

Yup, but those are getting harder to find and I'd like those in some nice red star plastic

Hi, why is it that when almost anything Innova makes that is desirable have to be CFR? I can see Champion Rocs and a few others but now a more stable disc a CFR and more expensive to the player. Why not charge more for all discs and make most now CFR discs available to the retailers. There has to be other ways of fundraising without making all these limited edition discs. Thanks

Hi, why is it that when almost anything Innova makes that is desirable have to be CFR? I can see Champion Rocs and a few others but now a more stable disc a CFR and more expensive to the player. Why not charge more for all discs and make most now CFR discs available to the retailers. There has to be other ways of fundraising without making all these limited edition discs. Thanks



CFR is necessary to support the Tournament Directors who have a difficult time doing the often thankless job of running a tournament and raising money. The usual discs for the tournaments are not more expensive, they carry the same MSRP as a Champion disc, even if they are a Star disc. Only the INNColor discs cost more to the player. Plus, many times the discs available to the events are special runs that we don't produce widely, but are sought after by tournament players as opposed to recreational players. Often times two different markets.

Hey Dave, Do you know if the Sonic is going to be approved for Super Class? Apparently the Fastback is ... so wouldn't the Sonic be too?
Please run some MAX weight RED Sonics ... I can't find one anywhere and broke mine at my last tourney.

No Sonic in Super. But it's still cool for regular golf in heavier weights.

is it too small?

Yes. If you look at the list I posted today on the Super Class thread under the Ratings topic area, every PDGA Approved disc of 23.7 cm diameter and larger is listed with the exception of the Jaguar, Condor and Lynx which either have too "sharp" of a rim and/or are too low profile for Super Class.

We will only have two models available for SC. Regular stock Pulsars at 180g and Zephyrs at 180g-200g. The Zephyr mold is currently undergoing reconditioning. It has been out of commission for a while. Should be ready within a couple of weeks.

hey Dave--how light did the star monarchs go?

Any idea when some lighter weight Boss discs might be coming out? Can they be made lighter? Will they still be in champ/star?

hey Dave--how light did the star monarchs go?


They went down to about 158g. Occasionally they went lower, but much less frequently.

Any idea when some lighter weight Boss discs might be coming out? Can they be made lighter? Will they still be in champ/star?



We probably won't have lighter weight Bosses until next year. Right now, they can only be made in DX, but we are also working on a lighter Pro and Champion/Star. The longest shot right now is getting Champion and Star lighter.

bring on the 150 dx!!!!!

have you considered making monarchs in dx realy low like 130class? what a great kid disc that would be.

Are you remaking the Champion Panthers??

I know this has been asked a few times now but I just was wondering if you had an updated date as to when the first run star bosses where going to be released?

http://dealer.innovadiscs.com/images/ch_panther_main.jpg


Due to popular demand, the Champion Panther is back. The Champion Panther is one of the most under-appreciated Mid-Range discs that we offer. The Champion Panther is perfect for hyzer-flip straight shots. Also an exceptional disc for those learning to play disc golf.
Weight range : 165 to 175 grams
Ratings 5, 3, -2, 1

http://dealer.innovadiscs.com/images/ch_panther_main.jpg


Due to popular demand, the Champion Panther is back. The Champion Panther is one of the most under-appreciated Mid-Range discs that we offer. The Champion Panther is perfect for hyzer-flip straight shots. Also an exceptional disc for those learning to play disc golf.
Weight range : 165 to 175 grams
Ratings 5, 3, -2, 1



I love marketing. Today I went to McDonald's (yeah, I'm admitting it) and a sign at the drive thru said "Zero trans fat in suggested serving" talking about the chicken nuggets. How can it have ZERO if you eat the recommended serving, but not if you eat more? 0+0=more than Zero?

...and now we have "one of the most under-appreciated" discs "back by popular demand"...I guess being under-appreciated is popular these days. :D

Today I went to McDonald's (yeah, I'm admitting it) and a sign at the drive thru said "Zero trans fat in suggested serving" talking about the chicken nuggets. How can it have ZERO if you eat the recommended serving, but not if you eat more? 0+0=more than Zero?


The "suggested serving" likely either didn't include any dipping sauce or only certain ones. It's sort of like how a baked potato is good for you as long as you don't put anything on it that makes it edible such as butter, sour cream, cheese and/or bacon bits. :D

I know this has been asked a few times now but I just was wondering if you had an updated date as to when the first run star bosses where going to be released?



We have not scheduled them yet. Not before February at this point. Possibly later, unless we do a special run.

Today I went to McDonald's (yeah, I'm admitting it) and a sign at the drive thru said "Zero trans fat in suggested serving" talking about the chicken nuggets. How can it have ZERO if you eat the recommended serving, but not if you eat more? 0+0=more than Zero?


The USDA allows for a food's marketers to trumpet a "fat free" claim if the food has less than 0.5 grams of fat per reference amount (aka "suggested serving"). So, using government math, 0+0 does equal more than 0, as those <0.5's can add up to a lot if multiple "suggested servings" are ingested.

Ironically, this means that one could advertise Crisco as a "fat free" food if the serving size were wee enough, though Crisco is 100% fat.

This does raise an interesting point Dave. Will there be significant changes in existing molds to warrant new nomenclature? KP



If you mean nomenclature designating significant changes to the flight characteristics of existing models, maybe. No changes are scheduled to be made to the molds that produce the models. Only some models would benefit significantly by being more overstable. I would like to see a slightly more stable Starfire, Orc, TeeBird or Eagle. Definitely would like to see a more consistently overstable TeeRex. A really stable version of a Wraith, Destroyer, and Boss would be nice. I'm not sure this stabilizing process would even work with discs that are already overstable like Whippet Xs.



We are doing our first tests of the stabilizing process on Destroyers, which will be available in very limited quantities Friday at discgolfvalues. There will be something around 200-300 at max weight in night shift blue. All proceeds will go to a local non-profit. I would appreciate any feedback from those who purchase these discs. Our initial tests were excellent. Thanks.

but will they be legal?

Yup. The destroyer mold is already approved, so it can be tweeked at will

but will they be legal?



Yes, the tool wasn't changed but the discs are not as domey.

ok cool, but what about the weight i thought the highest thats alowed is 180

Production run will be 200-300 pieces of max weight (175g) discs, not a run of 200-300g discs.

lol thanks

Production run will be 200-300 pieces of max weight (175g) discs, not a run of 200-300g discs.



Correct and the run ended up closer to 200 discs.

Dave
I found a couple of these in a box of discs that I learned the game using. It is a Patent Pending Aero. Any idea on the date with this particular hotstamp?
I also have Pat Pend Avairs with two different fonts for "Patent Pending". Ideas here?
Thanks

http://www.geocities.com/foshildgc/173patpendaero.jpg

Dave
I found a couple of these in a box of discs that I learned the game using. It is a Patent Pending Aero. Any idea on the date with this particular hotstamp?
I also have Pat Pend Avairs with two different fonts for "Patent Pending". Ideas here?
Thanks



I am not sure when that Aero came out, but I would guess somewhere about 1986. The Aviars are two different ages. The small font was earlier, about 1984. The larger font was later. The smaller font should have one 2" diamter circle underneath. The larger font may or may not have a 2" circle. If it had 2 concentric circles, it was later yet.

We will only have two models available for SC. Regular stock Pulsars at 180g and Zephyrs at 180g-200g. The Zephyr mold is currently undergoing reconditioning. It has been out of commission for a while. Should be ready within a couple of weeks.



What about the Super Nova, is it still in production??

I got one in a disc retail store around Sept. Flies about like the Zephyr with similar squared rim compared with the more rounded ultimate discs in that size.

We will only have two models available for SC. Regular stock Pulsars at 180g and Zephyrs at 180g-200g. The Zephyr mold is currently undergoing reconditioning. It has been out of commission for a while. Should be ready within a couple of weeks.



What about the Super Nova, is it still in production??



No longer in regular production, but still available in regular weights. Not 200g, though.

Hi Dave,

What are the regular production weights for the Zephyr, and what plastics do you think you'll be running it in? Glow, perhaps? At 180-200g this could be the "killer disc" for Super Class.

Hi Dave,

What are the regular production weights for the Zephyr, and what plastics do you think you'll be running it in? Glow, perhaps? At 180-200g this could be the "killer disc" for Super Class.

Hi Dave,

What are the regular production weights for the Zephyr, and what plastics do you think you'll be running it in? Glow, perhaps? At 180-200g this could be the "killer disc" for Super Class.


We are running the Zephyr in DX 190-200gm. No glow, at this time. We will be testing it for the second time in Champion or Star fairly soon. Testing didn't go too well last time. My throwing tests showed a very good approach and putt disc with the Zephyr, but nothing special as a driver.

Dave, a buddy of mine is going to run a super-Tourny with Zephyrs. WHen can he expect them?

Hi Dave,

What are the regular production weights for the Zephyr, and what plastics do you think you'll be running it in? Glow, perhaps? At 180-200g this could be the "killer disc" for Super Class.


We are running the Zephyr in DX 190-200gm. No glow, at this time. We will be testing it for the second time in Champion or Star fairly soon. Testing didn't go too well last time. My throwing tests showed a very good approach and putt disc with the Zephyr, but nothing special as a driver.



Dave, I can take care of the discs of the 1st test run :)

Dave, a buddy of mine is going to run a super-Tourny with Zephyrs. WHen can he expect them?



They have been run so now they have to be shipped to the east coast and hot stamped. Probably two weeks. Maybe sooner.

Hi Dave,

What are the regular production weights for the Zephyr, and what plastics do you think you'll be running it in? Glow, perhaps? At 180-200g this could be the "killer disc" for Super Class.


We are running the Zephyr in DX 190-200gm. No glow, at this time. We will be testing it for the second time in Champion or Star fairly soon. Testing didn't go too well last time. My throwing tests showed a very good approach and putt disc with the Zephyr, but nothing special as a driver.



Dave,
Are you considering designing better flying discs for Super Class or just remaking the existing molds that meet the standards?

I was talking with Harold last night and we were thinking it would be a good challenge (should he choose to accept it) to see if Dave could come up with a Super Class design that could be thrown well with a forehand release since these discs in general are harder to control when thrown with power that way.

I was talking with Harold last night and we were thinking it would be a good challenge (should he choose to accept it) to see if Dave could come up with a Super Class design that could be thrown well with a forehand release since these discs in general are harder to control when thrown with power that way.



**Apologies in advance for the thread drift...**

Isn't this violating the spirit of Super Class - trying to engineer a disc specifically for a better forehand golf shot? I thought Super Class was supposed to be for Ultimate-style discs, or at least the discs in Super Class were not supposed to be designed in such a way that makes Ultimate lids non-competitive in Super Class.