Question from person with illegible signature:

What do you think of no t-shirts at 2004 Worlds.

I believe the move to Augusta will be beneficial for both the PDGA and the National Disc Golf Center as each benefits the other. A world class organization benefits from a world class venue. Likewise, the venue's status is elevated when it becomes the home to the sport's sanctioning body.

And, like Dave and Tim, I am confident in the project because Brian Graham is the point man and he knows how to get things done right.

Take care,

Harold

That is basically all of the questions posed at Champion's Night. There were some questions that were answered directly through email, and some that were duplicates of other questions. There were only a few questions that were not serious or with illegible handwriting. One of my personal favorites was asked by anonymous:

Will I ever learn to putt?

Thanks again to all who took the time to ask questions and to all who attended Champion's Night in Des Moines. Feel free to continue asking questions on this thread as it is much easier for some users who have to wait for the original Ask Dave D. thread to load.

CB and Brian, the Starfire is the flagship of our company. The second run is very long, fast, and much more predictable than the first run. It is our best long range golf disc with a combination of distance and stability that make it both accurate and long. We also have the Pro Orc as the longest flying disc in our line. The first run did not have much durability, but was very long. The latest run is more durable. The Pro Orc is not as good into a wind as a Champion Starfire, but in all other conditions it is good. Downwind, it flies farther.

Greg, we will bring back the Pro Firebird at some point. Probably the next time we run Firebirds.

Shaine, we could only rerun the original in drivers like TeeBirds. Anything longer like the Valk Firebird Orc Beast etc would be too stiff. We may try to do a special edition Champion TL in the future.

Thanks Dave :D

sounds great dave--thanks. the orcs should be about perfect. very disappointing to hear about the rocs being fundraisers though. next years worlds? it would be nice to just be able to buy and throw a premium roc.

;)A Special Edition Champion TL? Now Dave, couldn't you just name it a "Special Edition Champion Edition Pro Line KC Barry Schultz JK Teebird TL, not T"? - Just kiddin', couldn't resist!

Thanks for the skinny, Dave2; no doubt that guideline is there for an excellent reason, like safety...not a place to skirt borderlines.

...when the latest SE Valks come out, will this involve any "retooling," and not merely a change in plastic? Does retooling that mean only the mold [parts] design is altered, or are the actual [old] mold parts grinded/welded/etc.?

If Harold is still around, I'm wondering in you have a written 'manifesto' of course design availabe?

Thanks all,
Happy discing!
slo

dave have sam PM me about the mini's for my up coming wedding,i need to get some info from him or PM me his number so i can talk to him
thanks
jack :D

hey dave-if you guys make special champ tl's, how would they differ from the cfr tl's that are out now? are you saying they would [could] be run out of original ce plastic? as always-thanks again

Dave,

I heard that the Pro Valks will be somewhat the same as the SE
Valks of old. When they are available will they be around for a while or is there a limited # that will be made?

Slo, a re tool usually means the old parts are reshaped into new, but it could also mean a new part or entire mold is made. But, to answer your first question last, no, no new tooling is involved. Just a material change.

steven, yes we could reformulate the original stiffer slicker opaque stuff.

Johnny, they will become a regular disc in the line.

Dave, you have been playing frisbee since 1958?

Did you know Fred Morrison?

What other frisbee pioneers do you remember playing with?

Doug

I thought Fred was still alive. Recall reading a few months back that he was at a tourney in Utah.

Doug, I have only played organized from 1977. 1958 was just play catch and invent games in my neighborhood. Never met Morrison or anyone else other than the members of the pdga hall of fame.

Thanks Dave2, I'm eagerly awaiting those SE Valks...as for Mr. Morrison, I'll second that impression a Ute course/park was re-named for him, recently.

I'm sure this has been covered somewhere before...but I will ask it anyway...

Dave...now that we have the wide rimmed driver...what kind of advances might we see in the midrange area??? I wouldn't think that you could do a wide rim midrange disc by any means...

Just curious....

Hope you had a good time in Des Moines...we are proud of our courses here...

Dave I throw the spider for a majority of my upshots. I was curious of what understable midrange you may have that would have the mold somewhat similar to the spider, just less stable?

or what if I went down in weight? would that make a difference? I just need an understable midrange.

Down in weight = any disc = less stable

Me too. Been playing with frisbees since 1953, 1954?
Had a Pluto Platter. I distinctly remember the day it went down the sewer on my block. Never recovered it.
Jammed freestyle in the 70's with the Washington Street Wizards and Crae Van Sickle and Kerry Kolmar among others. They tried (with not too much success) to teach me the nail delay. Just learned recently that Kerry invented it.

Never lost my fascination with flying discs. The ball of the future!

Sorry to intrude, but one of the only advantages of getting older is having done stuff. :D

try a hydra

Dave I throw the spider for a majority of my upshots. I was curious of what understable midrange you may have that would have the mold somewhat similar to the spider, just less stable?



If you are calling the Pider overstable, then you must be throwing a CE Spider. Try a DX Spider for understable.

Dave et al, which will be harder to break, the MTA world record or the MTA mini world record?

MTA World Records:
MTA: 16.72 s Don Cain (USA) 5/26/84 Philadelphia, PA

Mini Disc MTA: 9.92 s Conrad Damon (USA) 9/27/97 Rohnert Park, CA

I finally threw a 13 and have witnessed a 14.47. Does anyone think the 20 second barrier will ever be broken?

Does anyone think the 20 second barrier will ever be broken?

"Ever" is a long time, so assuming we don't blow the planet up or otherwise wipe out civilization, yes. :D

If you are calling the Pider overstable, then you must be throwing a CE Spider.

Or he could be a BigMiniArm_NotWorldChampion. :D

Felix, given our proficiency at increasing our capacity to kill one another and our apparent disinclination to solve international conflicts peacefully, I'm not sure your assumption is a safe one. Therefore allow me to refine my question. :)
Do you think the 16.72 second MTA world record set in 1984 will be broken in the next seven years?
Also, which looks more incredible -- the mini record or the regular one?

I'm sure this has been covered somewhere before...but I will ask it anyway...

Dave...now that we have the wide rimmed driver...what kind of advances might we see in the midrange area??? I wouldn't think that you could do a wide rim midrange disc by any means...

Just curious....

Hope you had a good time in Des Moines...we are proud of our courses here...



I dont mean to be rude, but I'd hafta say the ROC is the perfect midrange. You have Dx for perfectly straight and an hyzers or even rolling. Theres the the KC Pro for shots that need to be a little more overstable or left. And the CE ROC if you wanna drop that much money(i'd recommend it) is great in the wind or for hyzers.

:eek: The Mini Record gets my vote.
As my best is 9.02 with a F.B. :p

I've never MTA'ed with a mini but 9.92 s just seems crazy. It must have landed on the back of a bird and got a feathered ride for at least 4 of those seconds :D

I can get double digits fairly consistently with a Condor in 5 tries (I like the Condors better than the FB's) , but 16.72 s seems ridiculous. It has stood for 20 years.

Down in weight = any disc = less stable




Ill will definatly have to disagree with this statement.

i have thrown some fairly light discs and they were more overstable then the heavier ones

examples

163g dx firebird the thing was more overstable than my 175g Champ Monster

158g Champ Orc would not flip when released flat, my 174g orc on the other hand will turnover when released flat without much effort at all

Willie...I didn't ask what the perfect midrange is...I simply asked what kind of advances they are making in midrange discs if any. And besides...you can throw a wasp which is interchangeable with a roc...but the bonus side is that you don't have to drop a kidney on a z-wasp versus a champion roc. Granted...I am a Roc thrower...but the only champion roc that was ever worth dropping $40 on were the 2001 run...

... but 16.72 s seems ridiculous. It has stood for 20 years.



Maybe it should be called the 17 second barrier then... 20 seems like high hopes if the current record is already 20 years old.

... And besides...you can throw a wasp which is interchangeable with a roc.....



'Interchangeable' as in you could throw either on a particular shot and have it come out identically or like you could choose to throw one or the other and not be lacking anything the other could give you? I'm curious because I wouldn't mind a nearly indestructable "Roc" regardless of whose brand name is on it. (but I would need to be able to throw my current Rocs without having to 'adapt' on a shot to shot basis)

That was wordy, I hope you understand what I intended.

St_T_Discgolfer:

You make a good point. I (stupidly) wasn't thinking about dx plastics when I made my little equation. I was speaking mostly from my experience with candy Valkyries and Beasts.
I also, obviously, haven't yet had a chance to throw every disc out there.
You're right about the dx plastic, though, at least until they get beat up, at which point they seem to adhere to the equation (i.e. 150g dx = less stable than 175dx). Also, all the dx Valkyries and Beasts I've seen have a noticeably wider rim than the candy versions. 2-3 mm differences at least. This will make them more overstable than the candy in similar weights (until [two rounds at O.G.]they get beat up).
I have heard that heavier Orcs are less stable than the lighter ones, and I can't figure out why that would be if the plastic and mold are the same. Seems to be the only disc at the moment that gets less stable as you add weight! :eek:
I have a 158g pearl yellow Orc and it's (for me) very overstable.
Maybe I should try a heavier one? :confused:

When I say interchangeable...I mean you can throw either one and have it produce pretty much the same exact flight path(At least for my throwing style). If I was comparing the different plastics for roc's versus wasp's...here's my break down of them.

DX Roc vs. Pro D Wasp => DX Roc wins in a land slide
SE Roc or Super Roc vs. Elite-X Wasp => Elite-X Wasp wins by a small margin
Champion Roc vs. Z-Wasp => Z Wasp wins in a land slide

I am not sure what to compare a KC Pro Roc to for a Discraft comparison...

In my bag...I carry two dx rocs(anhyzer and straight) and one z-wasp(hyzers).

The DX Roc is probably one of the greatest discs made...just look at the discs that the innova sponsored players carry. Anyway...enough thread drift to the darkside...this is the Dave D. thread...time to get back to pure Innova talk...

I know you didnt ask what the "perfect" midrange was, however i was merely pointing out that advances would be pointless if you found the "perfect" or near perfect disc. Also to whomever said that the elite x wasp wins and that the kc pro isnt in for comparison I would say the 01, 02 rocs would win that comparison, and the 03, 04' or kc pro would win over the Z wasp. I have a 178 Z wasp and is very unpredictable in the wind. But to each his own. BTW I paid $32 for the champion Roc (02') I'm throwing and if you trade you can also get a good deal.

The Shark is the most versitile midrange disc on the market, right out of the box, A beat roc is pretty sweet, but then you have to go through the process of beating it! All you have to do is control the release angle and you can fire a shark into a huge headwind... and The Champ sharks are Super overstable, comparable to a wasp/roc...

Of course I am bias, but the 3rd best Disc Golfer in the world right now can't be wrong ;) (not me of course, but Schweberger) :D

Of course I am bias, but the 3rd best Disc Golfer in the world right now can't be wrong ;) (not me of course, but Schweberger) :D

If memory serves, Schweby carries both Rocs ans Sharks. Rocs are for approaches. Sharks are primarily for turnovers.

I know don cain and he is a good thrower but there are many that throw better. Throwing the time is relatively easy if you are a good mta thrower. Catching it is tough if you have to run for 17 seconds. Don could run and catch well. I would certainly bet it will be beaten at some point in time. Even bet for the next 7 years. Can't compare the mini throw as I have never tried mini mta and don't know how hard it is. Conrad is like Don Cain, he is a good thrower, but an even better runner.

discchucker, there is room for advances in midrange disc technology, but they have to be throwable too. The market is slow to pick up on mid range too which already has many good discs. The Bulldog is one of those advances. Unfortunately, it proved too hard to throw, so we haven't released it.

Mr. Pookie, we have the Cobra and Stingray, but I assume you mean a disc with the same grip or rim size. The Spider is slightly unstable when new and beats into a turnover. For me and for a lot of throwers. the best turnover disc is a stable disc like a Roc or Sharks that has been seasoned into a reliable turnover go to disc.

discchucker, there is room for advances in midrange disc technology, but they have to be throwable too. The market is slow to pick up on mid range too which already has many good discs. The Bulldog is one of those advances. Unfortunately, it proved too hard to throw, so we haven't released it.


Dave, do you think it�ll be released in a near future or will the Bulldog never find its way to the courses? :eek:

I have a feeling it is break-able too. Launching the perfect throw into a fortuitious wind could do the trick. If only more people were into MTA! (imo, one of the best kept secrets on the planet)

Dave, have you ever heard from reliable sources of an unofficial time that was higher than 16.72?

mf100, I hope it does make its way, but right now it is only good for putting. It was supposed to be good for everything up to 320. Can't tell you what we are going to do yet, but it is scheduled for further testing right now.

Robj, I don't know of any catches, but I have thrown a few well over 17 seconds, problably 18 or 19, but I didn't come close to catching them. One or two were catchable by a real good runner. I did a couple in Santa Barabara in a warm up with a 3 mold blue Oly fastback.

I have heard that heavier Orcs are less stable than the lighter ones, and I can't figure out why that would be if the plastic and mold are the same. Seems to be the only disc at the moment that gets less stable as you add weight! :eek:



Even if made in the same mold, the outcome can vary. Probably depending on how long the disc is left in the mold, how fast you cool the plastic down after the injection and similar things? The plastics are not exactly the same either. Heavy discs probably have more weighting agent added to the mix.

Regardless of how it has actually happened, I've noticed that most of the lighter weight Orcs I've seen have a much "flatter" top, i.e. they are not so domey, compared to the heavier ones, which I'm certain affects the flight.

Hey Slo -

Dave and I have talked about a course design book from time to time. While course design is a passion for both of us, neither of us unfortunately have had enough time to put it in writing. When we do, it will probably take the form of a series of topical essays like Donald Ross' Golf Has Never Failed Me.

As its essence, good course design is safe, fair and fun.

Take care,

Harold

Davei:
Here's an odd question. Do you think it's possible to make a disc that absolutely will not go past a certain distance? Say,
250 feet or so?
I don't have this problem (yet) but I see lots of big arm players who cannot seem to throw short. Some of these guys will tee off with a putter on shorter holes and still go way long.
I've also seen guys play a 280 foot hole by throwing the disc 300 feet off to the side in a giant hyzer that probably travels 450 feet through the air to end up 280 feet away, if they're lucky. :p

Could there be a demand for a super slow disc for the monster arm guys?

Dave, this came up in the "Question about Tee Birds" thread... I seem to recall that the first SE Tee Birds were "T" molds, followed soon after by the introduction of the "TL" mold. Am I correct in my memory recall? Thanks.
DOC~N

Circle 2, I believe you are correct, but I am not sure.

Blarg, yes I think so. Same philosophy as ball golf. Use a sand wedge on a short hole so to speak. We currently have the Birdie as our slowest disc. Before that, it was the Piranha. The Aviar is easily faster than either of these.

Don't forget the "less=Leopard" embellishment

Pro TL (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=20851&item=3695813283&rd=1) Dave is this just a gimmick or did you release some Pro TL's?

Willie, I don't know what you mean by gimmick, but we are releasing Pro TLs Aug 23. The Pro Tees will be made in TL form from now on. The Champion Tees with be normal mold.

I guess that's today. :o :)

I meant someone photo shopping in the L, but yeah pro tl's yeah!!!!!!

Blarg, yes I think so. Same philosophy as ball golf. Use a sand wedge on a short hole so to speak. We currently have the Birdie as our slowest disc. Before that, it was the Piranha. The Aviar is easily faster than either of these.



Blarg, I was just thinking the same thing today: the need for a disc that is shorter and straighter then an Aviar when thrown high and slow. I think there would be a great demand for a disc like that if it had the feel/rim of an Avair or Rhyno (minus the stablity). The problem with the Birdie or the Polecat is the rim, it makes for a very strange grip, almost like throwing a K-Mart disc.
I putt with an Aviar and use it or the Rhyno for short drives and approaches but sometimes there is that in between shot where you are not putting but your not really throwing the Aviar and it becomes a really touchy shot that you could flip over or not put enough on it and have it fade out, ect. so a slow staight disc would be perfect.
Or just beat up a JK Aviar a little bit and pratice those shots... that is what I have been doing.

Also, Dave I just got some ProLine Leopards with the old Innova Bar stamp on them and they say "Designed for Professionals" they are made of some great plastic, it is like a mix of pro and candy, is this what the new Pro Orc and Super Rocs will be like?? The Super Rocs that were made like this are they for the 2005 Worlds in Allentown? If so where can we get them?

Cheers,
Matt

Dave, will the Pro TL's be stamped with the Pro TeeBird-L stamp like on the link that Willie posted or will they have the same stamp as the current ones? If the latter, will they be penned "TL" and/or will they be this new blend of Pro/Candy?

Matthew, yes the Pro plastic is a mix of Pro and candy. The current run of Pro Orcs is being made of it, and the Super Rocs are made of it. The Super Rocs will be a fundraiser for the 2005 Worlds. Innova East will know when and where they will be available as they spearhead the effort.

Shanest, the new Pro TeeBird-L should be available now. They should be stamped as such: TeeBird-L. It is a blend of Pro and Candy different from the prior Pro Tees, which were not Ls. All subsequent Pro Teebirds will be the L version. These tested out as very straight and long.

Dave,
I have a christmas stingray, but I'm not sure of the plastic. It seems to be high quality plastic, holding up like my champion shark and viking. The stamp on it has Santa throwing discs wrapped up, into chimneys with one saying par 4 next to it.

Dave...how will the newest pro mix stack up against the old SE/CE blend?I have a mixed TL that is as stable now as when I got it,and has as much use as any disc I own.It has no warps,scuffs,dents nothing.I beleive it to be even more durable then 1st run CE plastic.Is there or was there a mix added into the KC plastic?I think I said this before but the difference between 10x and 11x KC Aviars are to me obvious.It {11x} takes very little abuse,compared to my 10xs which I have had in my bag since they came out,and the 9x for that matter.

Schaff, I believe it is a Champion Stingray.

Ok thanks.

Chase, the new mix is like the Super Roc mix of a few years ago. It's not as tough as the TL you are describing.

so is this plastic similar to the 10x blend?

i think the 10x blend was the best

willie, I am confused as to what you are calling 10x plastic. I assume to are referring to 10x TeeBirds? Even if that is the case, there were several runs of 10x, so I need further clarification. That being said, the closest I can come to compare is the old Super Roc Plastic. It was milky white, mid stiffness, would scuff up but still remain stable, and had pretty good grip.

:D:) :D :eek: :p ;) :cool:

HE** YEA I can not wait.

Dave,
When is the release date? If you can tell us.
Thanx Scott

The Pro TL release date was last monday, Aug 23.

Dave,

I have some questions for you about the pro line orcs. I have 3 White Pro Line Orcs all at 175G. I noticed once you it a tree dead center, there pretty much garbage. They all taco'd really bad. You can see how hitting a normal tree curved the disc permanently. Is this something that is normal with this plastic? Because it is night and day as far as durable compared to champion. I would actually call it not durable at all. It is upsetting for me because I just wasted 3 discs in a matter of just hitting a tree and I am a pretty religious Innova thrower. Keep in mind there were about 6 other players that witnessed me doing this with the Orcs. They were all surprised and concerned about getting Pro Line now. Help me out here, can you clear things up for me?

Josh

Dave:

Another question for you.

I saw Brian Schweberger had a few of the opaque solid blue Champion Orcs. I swear they felt like old school CE. He told me they ran about 600 of them. So my question is when are they coming out of these throughout all molds? ALso why only 600 of them? Why tease us? haha.

Hi Josh, not speaking for Dave, of course. :)

But I too have noticed the taco effect - in 2 instances - on with a new first run pro teebird and the other with a new super roc... I have found that "tuning" the disc back to original form works well - you may want to give your rims a bit of a bend back into shape - they are still usable for me. Good Luck, Lindsay.

Lindsay,

I am way ahead of you. I tried working one back. Didn't work enough; there flippy as hell now. The guys with me couldn't believe how weak the discs are when hitting a tree.

Were you at Rumbletown?

The guys with me couldn't believe how weak the discs are when hitting a tree.

If you're not good enough to avoid hitting trees, you shouldn't be throwing "PRO" discs in the first place. :D

Josh,

The First Run Pro Orc plastic was not that durable. That is why we changed it. The plastic we are using now takes a lot more abuse. The first run probably had only two thousand or so made.

The Brian Schweberger Orc is a Champion Orc made with Pro color. There were about 600 of that color. The new Pro mix is half way between the original pro and candy.

fore:

We are actually testing how durable the pro line orcs are. This is just a test, not during a round. Also who are you? Are you a PDGA Member?

Dave:

Thanks Dave!! I will see about getting the later runs of the pro line orcs. We'll see how they stand up. From what it sounds like you have taken care of the issue.

Josh

Lindsay,

I am way ahead of you. I tried working one back. Didn't work enough; there flippy as hell now. The guys with me couldn't believe how weak the discs are when hitting a tree.

Were you at Rumbletown?



Try throwing them as rollers if they turn over. I saw someone roll one 450+ ft last week.. :)

PT Woods
# 20431

The Pro TL release date was last monday, Aug 23.


Are these Pro TL's the new or old mix of Pro plastic? Thanks, Dave

Dave are all Zephyrs stamped "Pat. Pending" on the bottom??? or is this one I have older??

thanks :D

Sorry Dave,
I was refering to the NEW Super Roc's that will be the next World's Disc's. Thanx

Vince, I believe the new Pro TLs are either the new mix or a blend. They are not the same mix as the first Pro Orc mix.

Jaymo, all are pat pend as we have not changed the engraving to the two patents we have unless one is on the Thumtrac itself.

Scott, I don't know for sure. I think it will be September or after. We need to get art from the World's 2005 committee.

hey Dave..How come Im seeing dx X-outs of out of production discs?Arent Rams and Pegasus' discontinued?I got a dx Leopard X-out the other day and was curious because Ive never seen DX factory seconds till recently.thanks.

Chase, we have a pile of x-out discs that go back a few years. Most of our dealers didn't even know we had them. Recently the dealers have started getting them as they are discounted. Some are several years old like the Pegasus.

hey dave--were ALL the new pro tl's blended plastic? i was under the impression they were. i just got 4 in the mail this a.m. and they feel just like the 1st run pro t's. very domey and floppy top. they are a very straight flyer, with tons of glide. great downwind disc. maybe mine do not have much champion blended in? would love to see a mix with more ce-type plastic in the blend. thanks and keep up the great work--steven

hey dave--were ALL the new pro tl's blended plastic? i was under the impression they were. i just got 4 in the mail this a.m. and they feel just like the 1st run pro t's. very domey and floppy top. they are a very straight flyer, with tons of glide. great downwind disc. maybe mine do not have much champion blended in? would love to see a mix with more ce-type plastic in the blend. thanks and keep up the great work--steven

Ok Remember the Champion Orcs that were made for Brian S. The ones that were almost like CE. Well they were not the Pro Line Orcs. Didn't even compare. These were solid in color and I swear felt like 100% CE. Ask Brian and he will tell. Just run those please.

You would make customers very happy.

Hey Discgolf,

I read a DD response earlier to the same type question and I hope I get it right...

The Brian S Orcs WERE CE orcs that were run accidentally with PRO color in them. About 600 of them were made.

Dave, I just bought another Champion Aero and like it a lot for longer putts. Do you expect to continue to make Champion Aeros for the forseeable future?

Also, have you played with a 20th Anniversary Champion Aviar and if so what differences do you note about its flight characteristics? I have two and throwing one (since they are limited edition) and scuffing one up just seems wrong :D

robj, we will make Champion Aeros in the future. As for the Champion Aviars; I would say play with a regular Champion rather than the 20th Anniversay edition. Much cheaper. I havent noticed any difference in the flight of the latest run. They are much more stable than the previous run however. Very straight, as opposed to the last run which had a slight turn.

Yes, they were a blended pro. The blended material takes a tree hit better than the original, but is not as durable as the Champion. The Pros tend to be longer downwind fliers with more grip, but less speed and less durability than the Champions. Most of the Champions are more stable into the wind also.

I think you've already addressed this question somewhere, but I can't seem to find it. Why is CE plastic so hard to find/make? Was it a freakish or accidental formula? Too durable? Missing ingredients?

:confused:

Blarg, it is basically the same stuff we use now. It was just a little stiffer; borderline stiff for PDGA regulations in some models. I still have some of the original (not for sale). There were actually two formulas. One with a weighting agent, and one without. The one with the weighting agent was opaque (mostly red), and the one without was transparent blue or red or clear.

Dave,

Then why tease with other plastic? Everyone loved old CE. I mean they really LOVED it. It upset allot of players when you changed it. I am sure you are aware of that. So is it a matter of supply? Do you have not enough old CE material left? As you can see on EBAY the price of OLD CE is gone throw the roof and the reason is INNOVA stopped producing it. If you are telling us you have the material still why don�t you start making old CE again? Why did you have to change a good thing? I am sure you could figure out a way to run old CE again that would be legal for the PDGA. Thank you for your time Dave.

HI Dave,
you seem to have a good insight in the Millenium line-up too, do youknow if all the new Millenium runs are made in Innova Pro-Plastic? The latest EXP1 (1.8?) Aurora MS, and Ohmega AP definitely are..., it seems......

Dave,

Then why tease with other plastic? Everyone loved old CE. I mean they really LOVED it. It upset allot of players when you changed it. I am sure you are aware of that. So is it a matter of supply? Do you have not enough old CE material left? As you can see on EBAY the price of OLD CE is gone throw the roof and the reason is INNOVA stopped producing it. If you are telling us you have the material still why don�t you start making old CE again? Why did you have to change a good thing? I am sure you could figure out a way to run old CE again that would be legal for the PDGA. Thank you for your time Dave.



In case you didn't digest his answer, the reason was because it was too close to being over-the-line in terms of rigidity regulations. Safety is a very important issue, especially considering that we play disc golf in public parks. Are you saying Dave shouldn't make business decisions based on PDGA regulations?

If you feel you must have CE then buy it, but be prepared to pay a lot of $. The top pros seem to be doing okay without it.

mf100, the Millenium were made of an older mix. Only the latest JLS run was made of the new mix.

Dave,

Then why tease with other plastic? Everyone loved old CE. I mean they really LOVED it. It upset allot of players when you changed it. I am sure you are aware of that. So is it a matter of supply? Do you have not enough old CE material left? As you can see on EBAY the price of OLD CE is gone throw the roof and the reason is INNOVA stopped producing it. If you are telling us you have the material still why don�t you start making old CE again? Why did you have to change a good thing? I am sure you could figure out a way to run old CE again that would be legal for the PDGA. Thank you for your time Dave.



In case you didn't digest his answer, the reason was because it was too close to being over-the-line in terms of rigidity regulations. Safety is a very important issue, especially considering that we play disc golf in public parks. Are you saying Dave shouldn't make business decisions based on PDGA regulations?

If you feel you must have CE then buy it, but be prepared to pay a lot of $. The top pros seem to be doing okay without it.



Well Gateway S plastic is way more stiff than any CE plastic could be. You could hammer nails with a S Blaze. If this stuff is legal, why not CE.

I think the real reason they discontinued it was because the material was not nice to work with and they ended up with many x-outs and unuseable discs (I've heard as many as one in three). When you make 3 discs and can only sell 2, it gets extremely expensive. The new Champion, although lesser in quality, is much more consistant.

People still pay top dollar for CE discs and if its the newer models that wouldn't pass pdga regs, than y not just make the older models you already have used CE for. i.e. Teebirds, Firebirds, etc. Also dave will we be seeing FL's anytime soon? maybe in the new pro/champ plastic blend?

Also dave will we be seeing FL's anytime soon? maybe in the new pro/champ plastic blend?



/msgboard/images/graemlins/ooo.gif /msgboard/images/graemlins/ooo.gif :D

Just answer the question please.

Still funny how the Questions were not answered.

And even more pathetic how some morons can't understand a simple, straightforward answer.

Please do explain. Coming from someone who using the word moron. hehe. No Clue!

I've seen a few pros with CE plastic in their bags, and most of the older (over 30) 'elite' players at my local use them all the time.
I suspect the 'one out of three' didn't come out right issue is more to the point as to why they're not made anymore(?).
:confused:

Here is something Dave previously posted (see April 2004 portion of this thread):

"there is a safety concern for the drivers. Ideally, I would like a plastic that has enough flex for safety and enough stiffness for a good feel. Make no mistake though, safety comes first."

robj:

I certainly agree with the safety first issue. However, I don't perceive the CE plastic discs as any more dangerous than my Champion or even DX discs.
I once threw a 175g DX Valkyrie about 220 feet that hyzered way more than I thought it would and it hit my friend who was out in a field retrieving his disc way off to the left. I never thought my throw would come near him. It did. I yelled 'FORE! LOOK OUT!' etc., but somehow hit him in the side of the knee anyway. He went down like he'd been shot.
Dropped to the ground like a can of tuna. There was no serious injury and he was fine, but I think he'd have been just as fine had it been a CE disc that hit him.
DX seems to be just as dense as CE and maybe even a bit less flexible.
I may be wrong, but I don't think the CE plastic mystery is because of safety issues.

Feel free to reply with: "WRONG!" if I'm wrong. :)

If it is indeed a safety issue, then CE plastic should not be allowed in tournaments.
It is allowed. They are 'PDGA approved.'
So why can't it be made anymore? :confused:

You can buy CE discs on eBay for about 80 dollars. You can then use them in a tournament. This seems a bit unfair.
:(

willie, if we run FLs, it should be out of candy plastic. The Pro plastic, in an FL mold could make it less than stable. But, I imagine it's worth a try at some point.

An adult being hit in the knee is not a worse-case-scenario. Of course playing catch with a baseball in a public park also presents potential dangers. No disc is completely safe, it is more a matter of degree. I myself carry a CE Valkyrie.

From what I have read, it sounds like the PDGA informed Innova that the CE line was borderline in terms of rigidity. Innova therefore modified the plastic in response.

There may be examples of discs not officially banned that are too rigid. Probably the PDGA doesn't want to be too rigid (pun unintended) with disc manufacturers since our sport depends upon them. Other manufacturers may be less responsive to PDGA feedback than Innova. This is all conjecture on my part and this thread is about Dave's perspective not mine, so I think I better bow out.

Absence makes the heart grow fonder. Perhaps you are too in love with CE to look fairly at this issue :D

That is so not why, and you know that. Sounds like excuses.

i just got an s illusion that is way stiffer/harder than my 1st run ce valks...

Josh, I have no idea what point you are trying to make. If we could make the discs the same and everyone would buy them and be happy, we would. We are not withholding, if that is your premise. We have tested the identical material in Rocs, and there was no difference between that "pure" material and our regular Champion mix for flight or durability. There is a possibility that the material gets tougher as it ages. Not likely after a few days. For now, it's a mystery why the first plastic batch was a little different.

Steven, if that s illusion is "way stiffer/harder" than your first run Valk, and if it has a similarly large rim, it has to be illegal. Maybe you should bring that to the attention of Jeff Homburg, who does the PDGA testing. He is who told me our original discs were borderline stiff.

Steven, if that s illusion is "way stiffer/harder" than your first run Valk, and if it has a similarly large rim, it has to be illegal. Maybe you should bring that to the attention of Jeff Homburg, who does the PDGA testing. He is who told me our original discs were borderline stiff.



The "S" Illusion was the the first plastic run for Illusions, and was the disc sent off for approval. AND, it was approved. So I'm guesing that thats not the case. I myself throw "S" Illusions and I can tell you that while they are stiff, they are perfectly fine and not very much stiffer if at all than old CE.

We are not withholding, if that is your premise.



You might as well just admit it. We all know you're witholding putting out CE discs so that the Illuminati can sell their backstock of the discs on ebay for insane prices to raise funds to fake another moon landing. ;)

All kidding aside, I do have a real quesiton. I'm not sure if this is as much of an equipment question, but have you guys considered expanding your "About Us" link on the website? Stuff like employee profiles, virtual tours, how a disc is made is interesting to me, specifically information on how a disc is made. I'm talking more general information; no need to reveal any trade secrets. Following the life cycle of a disc from conception to mass production would be really cool. Sort of like what they do on "Unwrapped" on Food Network:

http://www.foodnetwork.com/food/show_cw

The PRS Guitars website is another good example:

http://www.prsguitars.com/inside/index.html

Thanks!

That is so not why, and you know that. Sounds like excuses.

If you're going to call Dave a liar in a public forum, you better be prepared to back it up. What is your evidence? Do you work for the PDGA? Were you involved in the testing? Do you supply them with raw plastic? If not, how much are you being paid and who is paying you and/or widiscgolf to slander Dave and Innova?

robj:

I was just curious about what seemed to be the mystery behind CE plastic. All the long-time players rave about it. I don't use any CE discs, as I've only been playing for a year and all my discs are less than a year old.
Oh, not true! I did find a CE Eagle a year ago, but I've never used it. It was too heavy for me at the time.
Maybe I'll try it now that I can throw a bit harder! :)

there is no mystery about CE plastic. they used ot make discs from it, now they don't. discs are cheaper now, and just as durable. champ valk isn't as stable as a ce valk? go buy a champ viking. many pros don't throw ce stuff as it is too expensive to keep spares of.
can't we stop being disrespectful to dave and others on this thread, which is the outpouring of dave's commitment to the disc golfing community. ask question, get answer, don't like answer? go ask hawk or something....or maybe join in on the cam thread...

p.s this is directed at nobody in particular, just at the general feeling i am getting lately on this thread...nobody should take it personally!

Also, thanks Dave!!!!!

There is no disrespecting going on here. We are just trying to get some straight answers. As far as top pros go there are allot of them that use Old CE. For starters Barry Schultz does. We have seen the majority of the top players use old Ce.

Were not trying to start a fight here. We are trying to help Dave out by expressing the need for old CE again. We can ask the majority of Innova throwers that have thrown Old CE or currently still throw Old CE and they will say there is nothing that compares to Old CE. That they wish they would make it again.

The demand is there. Why deny it.

Some of you guys know what we mean. We are not trying to argue here. We're just looking for answers.

Also trust me I am not disrespecting Dave. Every disc in my bag is from Innova. Dave thanks for making the best product. Some of you guys need to not assume so much. You know the saying........Don't assume, you make an ***** out of u and me.

PS: Here is the list of PDGA Approved Targets and Discs. Read through it all please.
PDGA Approved Targets & Discs PDF File (http://www.widiscgolf.com/mkdye/PDGA_approved_discs_and_targets.pdf)

Then you can talk amongst yourselves.

I was looking through approved discs and came across the Innova Apple. What kind of disc is this, and how'd it get it's name?

Again I do appreciate the fast response Dave. Thanks again.

I'm pretty sure an apple is an unweighter aviar

Maybe we're having a communication problem. What exactly are the characteristics of the CE discs that you believe are so desireable? Stiffness, grip, flight characteristic, durability? We have produced recent runs of Champion TeeBirds that are at least as good as any previous CE plastic, IMO. By good, I mean, very durable, very true flight characteristic. replicable results, great grip, and not overly stiff. As far as I am concerned this stuff is better than any CE stuff we ever made. There will continue to be variations within each run and between runs for numerous reasons I have mentioned before including different material batches of the same material from the plastics supplier.

No the apple is a frisbee.I dont remember if its for ultimate, freestyle, or just for catch. But definitely not an unweighted aviar and probably not the best golf disc currently on the market.

The new champion stuff isn't bad. 3 of 4 of the drivers I carry are newer champion plastic (not CE). But that 4th is a FL. Kinda hard to get those in anything but CE. And getting so expensive that if I lose it I may have to sell family members to be able to afford a new one...

...come to think about it I do have a couple of cousins that are kinda a pain in the @$$. Any takers???

Ok Dave. Can you introduce a line that is 100% like the 600 Champion Orcs you made; the ones that Brian S. uses. That is what players are looking for. The grippy, opaque, solid color stuff. This is not much to ask for, seeing old CE will not be made again.

Remember the white taffy old ce firebird FX's? If you do, make them like that. That is what the players loved. There's got to be a happy medium somewhere.

I do understand where you are coming from Dave. Just trying to help out.

Hey Dave,

I bought a Champion Aero recently to use for longer putts because I have trouble with long putts using my go-to putter (JK Aviar-x). The first putt I tried with it today was about a 50 footer and that baby went in :D The glide of the Aero seems to really help with that type of putt for me. Do you know of others who utilize that sort of two putter strategy (one for long, another for short) or do you think I just need to work on my technique to enable me to better fling those longer putts?

That is so not why, and you know that. Sounds like excuses.




We are just trying to get some straight answers.



Please explain, without equivocating or attempting to evade the issue, how it is that you are not accusing Dave of lying, because by stating you are trying to get some "straight answers," you are asserting that he is NOT telling the truth when he says that the plastic was changed in response to concerns over its stiffness.

I just wanted to get some straight answers about the topic. Again I never once said Dave was not being honest. You put those words in my mouth. With the PDGA Approved Discs list and the multiple reasons we heard why CE is not being made; we were confused about the topic. That was all answered by Dave. I appreciated how fast he responded on the topic. I am not playing this quote game with you. I guess you have the time to. Who are you fore? Ok. Again thank you Dave for the answers to our questions.

If you read carefully, Dave never said that CE discs were not PDGA approved. If I am not mistaken, Dave was involved in the reasoning which created the rigidity regulations and therefore he is naturally responsive to ensuring they are met. If CE's were borderline I am guessing that wasn't good enough for Dave. Dave plays disc golf at a very high level and has been playing for a very long time so I am sure he is likewise responsive to what top players want. The success of Innova seems to be a strong endorsement of his decision making.

Yes and the Apple also have flight rings, like a Wham-O frisbee. :cool:

The PDGA Approved Discs list is dated 16th april 2003, is there no newer version???? :eek:

The funny thing is, back in the old days when CE was in abundunce people (on this very board, mind you...) would ***** and complain about all the inconsistencies in CE plastic..."oh, why doesn't my 3rd run valk fly like my second run" or "oh, the last run was too slick and doesn't get good grip and now this run gets good grip but doesn't last as long", etc...And now that you can't get it any more everyone wants it back! I kinda feel sorry for Dave on this one, I bet he regrets ever making CE plastic and all the crap he's had to put up with ever since!

thanks for the reply dave. this disc does not say pdga approved. it is indeed harder/stiffer than early ce. i will investigate further... i agree the newer champ teebirds are right-on. thanks again

oh-yea--the disc is an illusion and has a much wider rim than a valk

The Gateway Blaze is 10x harder than any other piece of Iron I've ever felt and it has been PDGA approved for a while.

Anyways, the bottom line is that CE is not coming back. Get used to the new Champion or throw something else. Discs and plastics change...just adapt. If you are so dependent on a certain disc or plastic that you couldn't play without it, the equipment isn't the problem, IT'S YOU!

Dave,

What plastic are the 20th Anniversary Aviars made out of? I believe I recall you saying they were the putter mold with a big bead in the champion plastic, but it feels more like the new pro plastic to me.

Thanks.

Way too stiff for the new pro plastic :D

When are the new graphite Orcs coming out?

:D

Hawk, the Anniversary Champion Aviar, and the other new Champion Aviars are made out of a blend that produces very little bounce when it rebounds. That was necessary to keep it from bouncing out or off of the target. The first run of Champion putters were too bouncey. Pro plastic is opaque. The opacity of the Aniversery Aviars is due to the color. That type color is usually used in the pro plastic.

This is the last time I will be able to be on line for a week. I am leaving for Japan in an hour. Thanks. If I am able to get on line in Japan, I will, but I don't anticipate it.

Have fun at the Japan Open Dave! Good Luck! I was happy to help support the tournament.

Since Barry won another World Championship will he be getting another signature disc? If so will it be the Champion Orc?

Does Barry even use the Orc? I know Shweb does, and he came in 3rd!!! give him a sig. disc! now people are going to be talking about the 2 times beasts and the 11 times rocs and the 5 times aviars, this is gonna get confusing.

I say give Barry the new Pro line Aviar... B/c KC and JK have an Aviar.. why not give Barry the other one.

all of this IMHO of course :D

Does Barry even use the Orc? I know Shweb does, and he came in 3rd!!! give him a sig. disc

When Schweb gets a sig disc, it'll be a Shark.

I dont think Barry needs a Orc.{if he doesnt have one}He doesnt win because of distance.He has remarkable consistency.

He has remarkable consistency.



**** strait man!

[QUOTE]
When Schweb gets a sig disc, it'll be a Shark.[QUOTE]


That would be sweet!!! :D

We all know that. Again all he would need to do is just carry it in his bag. haha.

Barry does use the Orc. I found one of his Orc's at the Great Lakes Open and brought it back to him. It was kind of funny because pretended that I wanted his autograph on the disc, but then right before I handed it to him I flipped it over to show him his name/number on the underside.

Dave, maybe you already covered this, but I was wonering why the teebird mold changed. I noticed they are now marked "Rancho Cucamonga CAL.", instead of "CA." and "TB" is written on the underside, instead of "T". The best driver ever, the 11x kc pro teebird, is not the same anymore. why? Also, any plans for making the Teebird-L in the regular champion line (not CFR)?

Also, which looks more incredible -- the mini record or the regular one?

Easily, the 16.72 is more incredible. I've thrown over 14 twice with a mini, my best being a 14.6 in Japan throwing against Mark Molnar. With a decent wind (you need a fair amount), minis can do some incredible things. It helps when the disc only weighs around 25 grams.

At one of the US Opens, I saw Sten Hermodssen throw a clear FB6 that came right back to where he threw from, at 16.5 seconds. He didn't know it was that big and caught it head-high. On that same field was Hiroshi Oshima's near-catch of a 123-meter TRC, which never would have been broken.

-Conrad

I can't speak for making them a production item, but you can find TLs with the regular Champion Teebird stamp...don't know how common they are, but I have one and have seen others.

Sorry for the dumb question, but what's the difference between 'Throw Run and Catch,' and 'Self-Caught Throw?' :confused:

Self Caught Throw refers to both TRC and MTA. With Throw Run Catch your score is based on the distance you travelled between releasing the disc and then catching it with one hand. With Maximum Time Aloft you are scored based on the time between the relaease of the disc and the one handed catch (first touch -- you can legally tip it but time stops at first touch and you must catch it with one hand and not trap it against your body or other hand).

Conrad, thanks for your perspective on the two records. I am amazed that you can get better times with a mini. That you once threw a 14.6 s mini MTA in Japan is incredible.

Rendroc, good catch. You are the first, I believe. There has not been a change. The mold was duplicated. The engraving apparently was improperly duplicated. Occasionally we need to run two molds at once. Both molds are used interchangeably.

The plans are for the Champion TeeBird and Pro TeeBird L. The Champion T L remains a fundraiser for now. No more Champion TLs with regular T stamps. (Hopefully, there could always be a screw up)

Kid Roc, it would make a good Aero, but not enough customer demand. The Aero is now a putt and approach disc most suitable for the novice, as it is the easiest disc we have to throw straight for a novice.

Kid Roc, it would make a good Aero, but not enough customer demand. The Aero is now a putt and approach disc most suitable for the novice, as it is the easiest disc we have to throw straight for a novice.



Wow, Dave. You went WAYYY back to get that question. I posted that 14 months ago. ;)

Great to have you back in the great USA. How was Japan?

Kid Roc, it would make a good Aero, but not enough customer demand. The Aero is now a putt and approach disc most suitable for the novice, as it is the easiest disc we have to throw straight for a novice.



Wow, Dave. You went WAYYY back to get that question. I posted that 14 months ago. ;)



What was the original question?

rob, Japan was great. We played on a golf course carved out of a mountain forest with an underground stream flowing under the fairways. The views were spectacular and so was the course. Hard to break par. I sure didn't, except the last nine holes of the last round for me. The Japan Open internet site has pictures.

Kid Roc, Oops, the discussion board sent me back in time when I was answering questions. Didn't notice.

Dave:


Since Barry won another World Championship will he be getting another signature disc? If so will it be the Champion Orc or Aviar?

We are considering another signiture disc, but haven't come up with a suitable candidate disc yet.

Will we ever get to see the EL run in pro plastic? Since you guys are going to be doing T's in the champion plastic and the TL's in the pro plastic...I was thinking that since you have the eagle's in champion plastic, that you guys could do the EL's in the pro plastic too :D

Just a thought...

Oh yeah...and welcome back...a friend of mine played over there and he said the courses were pretty nice too.

Hey Dave,
Were the 2001 Bowling Green Open stamped CE Valkyrie's 1st or 2nd runs? I've been told both and still don't know. Thanks!

:D:DExcellent! An Eagle with a Leopard bottom!! :D:D
:p JUST KIDDING!!! :p

discchucker, we used the TL for the Pro because it was straighter. We would have to shoot the E and EL to decide which to use for Pro. We haven't made a decision yet.

xcandy, sorry, I don't know either.

This is in response to a question asked by Theo Pozzy at Champions night at the Worlds. Theo asked "How do I increase my distance from 300 too 400 ft. Thinking about this, and trying to answer briefly was difficult, so I didn't answer right away. My best answer is to go to walt haney's throw (http://www.discgolfreview.com/resources/analysis/walterhaney.shtml) If I were to write a textbook on throwing, walt would be my best example of how to throw most efficiently. Walt does everything right. He has a short back swing, has his weight properly distributed, brings his disc high under his chin, delays rotating his upper body forward and unbending his elbow until his hips are open and he is in the proper position for maximum power and pull through. He does not start to unwind early as so many poorer throwers do. The only thing missing is what is happening with his grip. Suffice it to say that he must have a strong grip to utilize the power he is creating with his movements. If the disc does not rip out of his grip strongly, the power will be dissipated. There are three clips. Clip one (column one) has the best frame by frame. Frame four in clip one is the "ready to throw" or "go" position that Walt does extremely well. The second clip (column) is the best video view in real time.

delays rotating his upper body forward and unbending his elbow until his hips are open and he is in the proper position for maximum power and pull through.



Does "hips are open" describe the position when the belt buckle would be facing the target?

shouldn't be hard to tell. 2nd run were flat like a firebird.

Hey dave, what kind of new products are you guys workin on??

thanks :D

James, yes, but also the rotation of the hips in that direction.

The first will be a dx Viking. Still working on the Bulldog.

The ones I have/seen are 2nd runs...

Dave are you planning on running a DX Orc?
Thanks,
RED

The first will be a dx Viking. Still working on the Bulldog.



SWEET!

Could you comment on the relationship between how far the hips are open before the unbending of the elbow occurs?

Background: I was looking at some other good throwers and comparing how open their hips were before the unbending. I noticed that some seem to be slightly more open (or their hips have proceeded further through their rotation) and was wondering what the effect of this might be.

While you are at it :D, could you comment on the openness of the upper shoulders at the hit. I've been intrigued by the fact that some of the really good throwers seem to be much further through their shoulder turn before the hit, but still seem to have the ability to pull through the hit.

<font color="red"> RED </font> Yes, we are going to run DX Orcs, but not right away. Probably by early next year.

James, your first question is easy, the others are more complicated.

The hips should be to their most open position before the unbending of the elbow.

As for differences between good throwers: some good throwers are not the most efficient throwers. These throwers, like Barry Schultz and Steve Rico make up for their lack of efficiency with practice, and athleticism. Barry does not leave himself much elbow to use when he accelerates. He wastes energy getting to the "go" position. Barry has the potential to throw farther, but he doesn't need that nearly as much as he needs to be accurate with the distance he has. He is a 400 + ft thrower, so he is still doing well. Steve Rico's techique is worse for most people, but works for him. His technique requires even more athleticism, flexibility, traction, and balance. I would never recommend trying to throw like Steve. Steve is a very talented thrower, but has a difficult technique.

The players that I would recommend to emulate would be Ron Russell, Ken Climo, Brian Schweberger, Larry Leonard, Steve Brinster, and the best form captured on video would be Walt Haney.

Instead of eagles in pro plastic, how about firebirds?

nice to have met you in Iowa.

ce

The first will be a dx Viking. Still working on the Bulldog.



SWEET!



I second that.

yeah Dx Vikings and Orcs... excuse the Homer Simpson drool... ahhlhlhlhlh... ohhh baby.

thanks dave!

Hi Dave..is there anything you can tell me about the minis we recieved in our player packs at Worlds? A # run or that some people got Gold minis others got green,ect.....and also what can you tell me about the 1st run Aviar minis? Are the glitter/sparkle chips in the plastic weighing agents? Thanks, as always!!

Chase, the only answer I have is that the glitter is just glitter. It is not a weighting agent. I don't know which minis were used for the World's. Not much to say about the first run Aviar minis, but we ran both Aero minis and Aviar minis and decided the Aviars were best in candy. We ran assorted colors. We messed around with weighting agents that we normally use and could get them very heavy (for a mini), above 50 gms, but decided the clear candy looked better and was heavy enough. I believe the heavy ones were either purple or white.

Hi Dave, I have really been enjoying the new Pro plastic. Been following this thread for awhile and have not seen an update on the production of the XD in Pro. Last I remember was that it was to be run, but I have not seen it at any of the suppliers. Has it been run, or will it be soon?

Thanks Dave...we got Aeros in our players pack.I was curious because I seen alot of gold plastic minis and I got a green one.I just remember the limited edition Aero/Aviars from a while ago,and didnt know if there was a limited # of the Worlds minis.I have a 1st run red Aviar thats really heavy.Out of all the colors I have (5) that is the heaviest.Also,will there be plans for a Pro Beast? What about a Starfire? Thanks

Dave:

You probably been asked this before but what is the ETA for the new Pro Line Firebirds?

Josh

step, no, the Pro XD has not been run yet. Most likely it will be run in November.

chase, we will probably be doing Pro Beasts and Starfires by the end of the year.

discgolf, the ETA for the Pro Firebird is early next year. It has gotten pushed back behind several stock discs in the molding line.

Thank You Sir

Hello Dave,

when do you estimate that the DX Viking will be released?

Thanks in advance.

Thanks Dave.

Dave,
do you have a release-date for the Pro-Valks?
There was a test-run of the Condor, have you planned a "regular" run?
Second run of mix Champ/ Pro Orcs?
Will you mix in the champ-plastic in all the Pro-runs in the near future?

Please remember the Champion/ Pro Zephyr !!! :D :D :D

Zmirc, the DX Viking should be released in about a month, if everything goes right.

mf100, the Pro Valks will probably be released in Dec. Second run of Pro Orcs with mix has been done. They should be in the pipeline by now. No plans for the Condor or the Zephyr in the near future. All of the future Pro runs will have added candy.

All of the future Pro runs will have added candy.



I think Dave may have just convinced me to give Pro Line another shot. The ones I had tried were far too prone to taco IMO, give me the Pro feel with some added durability and we could have a winner in my book :D

Hi Dave...Whats up with the KC blends? I have Gazells and Banshees that feel like Champion and a Whippet that feels like a KC Roc, and there is noticable difference between the 10x and 11x KC Aviars. I thought for awhile that I had a freak Aviar but after getting more they all feel basically the same,and not like the 10x plastic. Thank you.

chase, the Gazelle and Banshees are older models. The Whippet was probably a KC Whippet made out of KC Roc plastic. The difference between 10x and 11x KC Aviars is probably due to trying to make one or the other more tacky. It also makes it slightly less stiff.

Davei:

Are X-outs legal in tournaments?
I have a few X-out Valks from about 8 months ago that say 'Special Edition' on them and I love what they can do.
:confused:

Blarg, yes x outs are legal. They are mostly cosmetic defects, sometimes double stamps. If the disc has a molding defect where a part of the disc is missing, it should be a reject and not an x part. Some of those do get by at times.

Hi Dave,
except the discs you have mentioned above, which other discs are planned to be released during the next two month?

There was a run of Champion Whippets at the end of last year, how many discs did you produce, I have heard/read about figures between 500 and 10000, what is correct?

mf100, the only disc I can think we might release in the next two months would be the Pro Viking. If my memory is right, the number on the Champion Whippets would have been around 4000.

Howdy Dave,

Another Aviar question. I know you have a driver and a putter mold. Is the driver mold (KC/JK etc.) designed to fly further than the putter mold (DX/Stiffy/Champ), or barring operator error should they travel the same distance, on more or less the same line? I have an impression that the driver molds are more controllable over distance, but that could simply be in my head/technique.

Thanks.

Isn't the JK a putter mold?

Hawk, the driver mold was designed to be very stable at high speeds and is more reliable into the wind. The putter mold has a slight turn at high speeds. The putter mold is better at short ranges, IMO, and the driver is better at long approaches and short drives. The distance is similar between the two.

Robj, the JK is the driver mold.

Okay, it is a bit confusing though because that means I putt with a driver :D

Is the difference between the molds simply the JK and KC Aviars have a big bead making them more stable / high speed turn resistant? I feel like the P&A has the most glide and therefore the most distance when thrown with hyzer to compensate for being less stable. Do you find the P&A has more glide or might it have more to do with my lid-like throwing technique?

robj, the driver is shaped slightly different too. Theoretically, the putter may have a little more glide, but slightly less speed. Personally, I don't see much difference except the flight characteristic.

robj, the JK Aviars won't have an edition for the next run. They will just say JK Aviar. The same goes for the KC Rocs and KC Aviars.



Dave, is that new run of JK Aviars anywhere near being started? Also, do you think many will be made that are blue?

Robj, no where near the next run. No plans for blue at this time.

hey dave, on the topic of the aviar-x's, did they change the plastic in them anytime in the past run or two? Ive felt two different types of aviar-x's, soft and grippy like I always knew them to be and more firm ones that didnt have much "flop" to them. Were those standard deviations off the line or were they two different runs? Stamps were identical.

The First run of 4x JK aviars were made incorrectly. The plastic was too stiff and when it would hit the basket it would get knicked up really badly.

So they fixed the mixture, and made them softer like the 3x JK Aviars.

Dunno about the KC Aviars

Dave,

I just got one of the new Pro Leopards with the improved plastic mixture and I love it! The plastic is much closer to Champion in terms of durability while still retaining some of the grippiness and flight characteristics of the original mixture. Thanks Dave! Now I just need an Orc in this plastic...

For anyone who did not like the first Pro plastic mix, you definitely need to check out the tweaked version, its considerably stiffer and almost as durable as Champion. It is very similar to the "Pro line" plastic of Leopards, etc. that was used immediately after CE was discontinued. I am amazed at how quick Dave & friends respond to issues of consumer demand and quality control when introducing new innovations.

Dave,would you say the newer run of Pro Orcs with added candy have more "waxy" or "greasy" feel than the first runs?

Chase, if you mean they are less grippy than the originals, yes. They are still more grippy than Champion, IMO.

Yes sir I agree.I just think that the newer Pro Orcs have a more Waxy feel to them and was actually trying to find out if those were the new runs or just a freak 1st run.i think these newer Orcs feel great and seem to have less give in the dome.I really didnt like the 1st runs,they felt to domey and had alot of give in the middle.

i think that give in the dome was part of what made them so undurable too.

dave, is there any differentiation on the stamp or anywhere else to let us know quickly whether we're looking at first-run pro line discs or newer runs with candy mixed in? thanks

You should easily be able to tell.The new Orcs have a waxy type feel to them and just feel more like a Orc,imo.

Dave, I recently picked up a cool roc, and was wondering what the story on it is. I think it might be a first run. It is yellow-green, 173, and in the shape of the new classic roc. It has a discovering the world stamp of the roc standing near a basket. Is this the first roc?

Hey these blue Orcs that everyone is always talking about, the Opaque blue ones that Schweb uses... how opaque are we talking here? I have a blue 175 Champ Orc, flat top, opaque, with a rainbow stamp. Were there others like this, or is this it??? is there a pic anywhere?

thanks, anyone who knows what I am talking about... :D

They are totally opaque.

They are totally opaque.



what does this mean exactly... you can not see anything through them... or you can see somethings but not clearly??? forget the Orc, just in a purely grammatical sense, what does this mean "opaque"

:confused:

It literally means 'not letting light pass through.'
As an example, dx plastic is pretty much opaque.

sweet... well then... I guess it's not as Opaque as the old CE stuff. so it's probably not the stuff then... :(

ohhh well it's still a good disc! :D

Rendroc, that is one of the original stamps. I would assume it is an original Roc. It should have a double ring on the bottom and they were usually fairly stiff. There was an exception in stiffness. A brownish run and a dull yellow. It is probably not a first run. They were wings and rings, and I believe orange.

I also recently acquired an old disc and am in need of some info.
It is a purple beadless Aviar. It has a patent #. It has what I'm calling a "nipple" and one ring on the underside. There may be a faint second ring, but not likely. It weighs 176 on my scale and has a blue "grid" hotstamp.
Thank you for your time and knowledge.

tafe, it is a regular run original Aviar, before we put beads on and separated into Putt and Approach and drivers. If it is what I think, it is very stifff. It is also collectable.

Dave, Will Innova ever make a long range driver that has a high speed turn of -1? For example like an X-Xpress?

I like the Stingrays but don't get the distance that I want out of them.

Here's to hoping! :D

PT Woods
# 20431

Dave, Will Innova ever make a long range driver that has a high speed turn of -1? For example like an X-Xpress?

I like the Stingrays but don't get the distance that I want out of them.

Here's to hoping! :D

PT Woods
# 20431



Well...if you like the X-Xpress...just stick with it.

Dave,

Are the new Pro Aviars the driver mold or the putter mold? They look like drivers to me.

Thanks.

Thanks. For what I paid Ellis for it, it better be collectable!!

Dave, Will Innova ever make a long range driver that has a high speed turn of -1? For example like an X-Xpress?

I like the Stingrays but don't get the distance that I want out of them.

Here's to hoping! :D

PT Woods
# 20431



Well...if you like the X-Xpress...just stick with it.



That's true. I love the X-Xpress for long anhyzer drives or rollers. I'm just surprised that Innova or Gateway doesn't have a similiar driver. It seems Discraft has the market on this one.

PT Woods
# 20431

I've thrown X-press' before, and found they are very comparable to my SE leopards... but that might just be me. :D

Im sure if Gateway has one DiscinDeadHead would have told you about it a long time ago,and tell you how much better it is than the disc you like.

Dave, Question: I have 2 KC rocs (both 11x, 179, and 180 g) they both have dings... Disc A was bitten by a dog, so the ding is on the top of the flight plate, and the bead. Disc B the ding was from a tree or something, and is in the rim (like usual)

My question is, how come Disc A is super understable now (it flies like a cobra) and Disc B, although the ding is bigger, still flies fairly Roc-like.

Here's a pic, that might help illuminate what I am getting at.

http://www.geocities.com/thegranolaman/rocbites.jpg

I don't know the answer to that, but I'm blown away by your graphic! :)

I've thrown X-press' before, and found they are very comparable to my SE leopards... but that might just be me. :D



Interesting, I haven't thrown Leopards for quite a while. I'll have to throw them again and see how they work.

Are the SE's you throw broke in pretty good or new?

PT Woods
# 20431

The broken in ones, fly more understable than the new X-press' I've thrown, but when new, the leopard is similar... maybe a little slower w/ more glide.

Hey dave, when are you gonna get rid of those beadless classic aviars that are hard as rocKs? I love DX putters, but those beaded grid-stamped aviars are becoming impossible to find. There are a plethera of those beadless classics around, but no one (i know) likes them.
Thank you, oh worthy and wise one.

There are a plethera of those beadless classics around, but no one (i know) likes them.




I like them! I like them!

Shall we take this conversation to traders row? :D