Well like a Dicraft Pulse will probably fly farther than Innova Aviar. You are correct.

Interesting ... my experience is just the opposite. ;)

Here is a question Dave.
I recently switched from Innova to Discraft...
Why does the Discraft plastic fly further with less effort than the Innova plastic???





man...some people have no shame.



Honest question.........
If an honest question bothers you, then mabey you need to take some time , and look @ your game!

Yes, you should get a certificate from an online retailer selling a CFR disc. An exception could be buying a disc a private party is selling. They may have already sent in the certificate. You should always check when buying a CFR disc online whether the certificate is included.




I haven't gotten any certificates this year. I purchased 2 Gremlins from discgolfvalues.com and two rhynos on the boards (from someone I assume was selling them for their club).

I know that's not a large amount of discs, but still, I would like to have gotten at least one entry into the CFR drawings.

I guess I will just have to be sure to ask beforehand in the future.

Hey whatever works for you, I cant stand discraft.

Hey whatever works for you



Exactly. There is no better or worse manufacturer; they all make hi-quality products, it's just . . .


whatever works for you

If you were 'BOOMING' discs before...who are you NOW? :cool::eek:

I haven't gotten any certificates this year. I purchased 2 Gremlins from discgolfvalues.com and two rhynos on the boards (from someone I assume was selling them for their club). ....



Send Mark at discgolfvalues an email and let him know the certificates were not included. He should take care of it for you.

The word is "farther" when you are talking about distance -- "further "denotes advancement to greater degree, as in time.

And "mabey" should be spelled "maybe".

I guess if you're going to troll on this thread you open yourself up to this sort of thing, right?

Regarding your question -- what kind of answer are you looking for? Do you really think Dave can tell you why another company's discs work better for you than his?

Maybe its time to go to comedy central and watch the DEE DEE DEE song!! Pretty funny stuff!

Regarding your question -- what kind of answer are you looking for? Do you really think Dave can tell you why another company's discs work better for you than his?



I was wondering if Innova catered to faster arm speed , or perhaps spin/grip variations. Like I said earlier, it is an honest question. Certainly there is some sort of r&d that goes into the production of their molds/plastic. I was only curious! How heavy is that chip on your shoulder?

By the way, I never professed to be a good speller. But u got the point......... I am sure your high school grammar teacher is proud of you! Keep up the good work! :D

BTW , Matt have a happy birthday...
@$$!

Thanks. Your sincerity is inspiring.

Thanks. Your sincerity is inspiring.



I try! :DEnjoy your day!

Birthday wishes from Portland, Oregon go to you, Mr. Kelly.

Dave:

Why do many Open players on the Innova team favor the big bead aviar molds when putting? Does the added stability of the bead simply increase the durable life of the putter? Or is it the stability itself that they like?

Just curious what your experience has been.

Many thanks,

Erik

Here is a question Dave.
I recently switched from Innova to Discraft...
Why does the Discraft plastic fly further with less effort than the Innova plastic???



don't look for Climo, Schultz, Reading and Korver (or Sandstrom) to switch to the Dark side anytime soon.
Innova innovates; the rest copy -> study history. ;)

if you find plastic that works for you terrific. as for less effort -- see what Bruce Lee had to say about that below ...

Innova innovates; the rest copy -> study history. ;)

Not true. Innova didn't create the "Buzzz". The best mid-range disc on the market! ;)

PT Woods
# 20431

Here is a question Dave.
I recently switched from Innova to Discraft...
Why does the Discraft plastic fly further with less effort than the Innova plastic???



Since I throw both I can honestly say that any differences are due to the thrower. The discs fly the same with subtle differences in feel or flight. Subtle...I suspect you had reached a plataeu in your game, perhaps due to boredom. Throwing all new plastic gets you engaged in thinking about your mechanics, angles of release, etc. If you are more interested you will play better...Until you get bored of Discraft. :)

Birthday wishes from Portland, Oregon go to you, Mr. Kelly.

Dave:

Why do many Open players on the Innova team favor the big bead aviar molds when putting? Does the added stability of the bead simply increase the durable life of the putter? Or is it the stability itself that they like?

Just curious what your experience has been.

Many thanks,

Erik



Good question Erik. I really don't know, but the answers I get are mainly that they like the feel. Stiffness, stability, and feel. But not necessarily in that order. The thing the BBs do best, (drive) IMO, is rarely mentioned.

Dave,
According to the header of the INNOVA site, 6 discs are being released Dec. 7. I'm really looking forward to the Max and the Aviar Driver. Can you give us a heads up as to what's planned for Star plastic down the road?

PS - Did you see my avatar?

Not true. Innova didn't create the "Buzzz". The best mid-range disc on the market! ;)




No, but they did create the Roc, which Discraft copied by making a Wasp. A buzz is a retooled wasp, so in a way Innova had a lot more to do with it than you think.

Dave,
According to the header of the INNOVA site, 6 discs are being released Dec. 7. I'm really looking forward to the Max and the Aviar Driver. Can you give us a heads up as to what's planned for Star plastic down the road?

PS - Did you see my avatar?



Star is planned for most of our discs. Some will be a gummier Star and some will be a firmer. Next up, as far as I know is FL and Skeeter.

I did see your avatar and I will run some Star Whippet Xes as 4 of our team guys tell me they use them for lawn darts. The Whippets will be limited.

Dave, How many Team members still throw Cobras? Do you think the greatness of the cobra as a go-to midrange disc has been forgotten?

Not true. Innova didn't create the "Buzzz". The best mid-range disc on the market! ;)




No, but they did create the Roc, which Discraft copied by making a Wasp. A buzz is a retooled wasp, so in a way Innova had a lot more to do with it than you think.



Innova also makes the Millenium QMS which is better than a Buzzz anyday of the week. i was playing catch with my gummy QMS with a friend who throws Buzzz's and he was very impressed with the disc. he said it flew a lot like his Buzzz. i let him know the QMS preceded the Buzzz by years and he seemed surprised :D

when did the MS first get released?

The MS is quite old, I remember Dave or John talking about it a while back and I was surprised by how old it is. BTW, there is more to a disc than stability, and though the Buzzz and MS are similar stabilities, they are very different discs and I often have each in my bag.

the MS and the Coyote make a better team ;)

Innova is so good people who throw the competition's discs can't help but read this thread :p

Dave,

I dream of an Innova midrange that has not been created to date. It possesses:

A large diameter like a Roc, Shark, or Coyote.
The carry/glide of the Coyote, MS or beat Roc.
The beadless grip (like Coyote, Shark still is too tall).
A good resistance to high speed turn.
A predictable, but modest fade.
Slighly more range/speed/wind resistance than the MS, Roc, or Shark.
In Star and Champion plastic.

Dave probably already has this one in his head, I'm just here to report an existing demand for it. :)

so you want a faster MS with more fade? wouldn't that make it into a driver?

Dave--is there any designation or way to tell the difference between the gummy stars and the stiffer stars other than holding both? it would be good to designate somehow, if only a pen mark on the bottom when the weight is written. among other reasons, it would make it easier for us that have to mail order. thanks again-steven

so you want a faster MS with more fade? wouldn't that make it into a driver?



Slightly faster. The Coyote is faster, so is a Buzzz. Basically I want a lower profile than the dominess of the MS.

sort of like a more stable Stingray?

i don't get the interest in speed. as long as the disc is accurate and has travel -- who cares? :confused:

If you can find them, the Moray was the stable version of the Stingray and comes close to the charateristics you are looking for. Not sure it's even made in DX anymore.

sort of like a more stable Stingray?

i don't get the interest in speed. as long as the disc is accurate and has travel -- who cares? :confused:



I guess I'm not so much talking about speed, but rather ease of motion. I want a disc that slides through the air rather than dragging through it(big bead). This is also very helpful for low ceiling shots. A disc has to have a certain speed and glide to go straight for 300' less than 8' off the ground.

I'm guessing you all want a new out of the box disc to do all this! Yup, me too!!
A perfectly beat up Tee Bird (DX/old-KC) is such a disc...a long Roc. The sucky part is that by the time you get them to this minimum-fade-point; they get lost... :(

also Dave-- i know this would probably not happen, but what about a special run of dx orion lfs? that would be close to a perfect driver, imho

I'm guessing you all want a new out of the box disc to do all this! Yup, me too!!
A perfectly beat up Tee Bird (DX/old-KC) is such a disc...a long Roc. The sucky part is that by the time you get them to this minimum-fade-point; they get lost... :(



The long Roc is the Star Valk...hands down. Nearly dead straight and long with almost zero fade. Will tolerate a mild wind, and breaks in into a slight turnover disc.

Star Valk is the the broken in DX Teebird (blasphemy).

Please, don't believe me. I like being the only one.

Star Valk outta the box is a long Roc? Or is there some seasoning required? Can you rip into it like a Tee Bird?

Hey Dave, sorry to hijack your thread...again. Can you comment on disc-seasoning in your experience...what's the oldest disc you carry? Are there certain discs you've seen evolve the most over the years?

Star Valk outta the box is a long Roc? Or is there some seasoning required? Can you rip into it like a Tee Bird?



For me, it is just like a DX Teebird.

New--heysers, fades, and mild headwinds. Not short.
Beat-Dead straight, very long
More Beat-turnovers, can be thrown with height over things and still go far (more nose up), flies and glides like a Sidwinder but flexes better so it is more consistent.

Of course, getting from new to really beat may take a year. I have traded for beat ones. I have never beat one in myself.

The disc is also very forgiving to speed, kind of like a Roc. When beat it can be thrown off speed, and can be ripped u until the point it is very beat. It is also about the same speed in the air, maybe just a level faster.

It also has a small wing and is easy to grip.

It is a SOLF without the fade.

I throw 400' consistently in the cold air (I have a tape measured marked field). More like 450'-475' in the summer air.

Dave, How many Team members still throw Cobras? Do you think the greatness of the cobra as a go-to midrange disc has been forgotten?



I think only Gregg Hosfeld still throws Cobras. Stan McDaniel and Phil Arthur might throw them too.

Star Valk outta the box is a long Roc? Or is there some seasoning required? Can you rip into it like a Tee Bird?

Hey Dave, sorry to hijack your thread...again. Can you comment on disc-seasoning in your experience...what's the oldest disc you carry? Are there certain discs you've seen evolve the most over the years?



The oldest disc in my bag is a Champion Viking. The oldest might have been my roller which I do season, but I have a habit of losing my rollers.

As far as seasoning goes, I like to season putters, mid ranges, and rollers. Not drivers. I like my drivers to be in new like condition, even if they are used.

I am not sure what you are asking about disc evolution, but certainly there has been very little evolution with putters and mid ranges since the Aviar and the Roc and Shark. Drivers, on the other hand, are still evolving.

If you are talking about the evolution of a single disc, I would probably say the Aviar again in it's many incarnations. After 23 years, and all the retools and variations, it's still an Aviar.

Dave--is there any designation or way to tell the difference between the gummy stars and the stiffer stars other than holding both? it would be good to designate somehow, if only a pen mark on the bottom when the weight is written. among other reasons, it would make it easier for us that have to mail order. thanks again-steven



Good idea. We haven't done it so far, but maybe a GS or SS instead of just S.

so you want a faster MS with more fade? wouldn't that make it into a driver?



Slightly faster. The Coyote is faster, so is a Buzzz. Basically I want a lower profile than the dominess of the MS.



You might try the MD1, although I wouldn't say it is lower profile, I would say it is faster. The DX version starts out a bit overstable and needs seasoning. The Star version is good to go out of the box.

so you want a faster MS with more fade? wouldn't that make it into a driver?



Slightly faster. The Coyote is faster, so is a Buzzz. Basically I want a lower profile than the dominess of the MS.



You might try the MD1, although I wouldn't say it is lower profile, I would say it is faster. The DX version starts out a bit overstable and needs seasoning. The Star version is good to go out of the box.



Three things came to my mind (for what it's worth). First was a Cobra. Lower profile and faster. Maybe in Star (when it comes out). Second was a beat-to-death Sentinel MF. Big disc and not too tall. Would have to be Millennium plastic because Q would not beat in enough. Last was a Polaris LS. To me it's a slightly longer version of the MS. But it has a driver like profile and would need some seasoning as well.

I carry three MS discs and never thought of them as domey.

And, excuse my ignorance, but what is an MD1?

The MD1 is the new disc Innova is making for Discmania.

If you can find them, the Moray was the stable version of the Stingray and comes close to the charateristics you are looking for. Not sure it's even made in DX anymore.



I would love to get a new Moray, maybe a star one Dave. Please!!! For a fundraiser.

Hey Dave are the gummy Champ Siders less understable than one that is more solid?

Dave, How many Team members still throw Cobras? Do you think the greatness of the cobra as a go-to midrange disc has been forgotten?



I think only Gregg Hosfeld still throws Cobras. Stan McDaniel and Phil Arthur might throw them too.

Mike Moser and Mike Hofmann as well

so you want a faster MS with more fade? wouldn't that make it into a driver?



Slightly faster. The Coyote is faster, so is a Buzzz. Basically I want a lower profile than the dominess of the MS.



You might try the MD1, although I wouldn't say it is lower profile, I would say it is faster. The DX version starts out a bit overstable and needs seasoning. The Star version is good to go out of the box.



Thanks Dave, I'll give it a try.

I did see your avatar and I will run some Star Whippet Xes as 4 of our team guys tell me they use them for lawn darts. The Whippets will be limited.




Oh baby! I ordered some of the SBBAs and SMaxes today. You've made me a very happy man, Dave. Any predictions on similarities/ differences between the star and champion Whippets. I've had a champ whippet in my bag longer than any other individual disc, and it still kicks the crap out of my star firebird.

Hey Dave are the gummy Champ Siders less understable than one that is more solid?



No, I don't think so.

Any predictions on similarities/ differences between the star and champion Whippets. I've had a champ whippet in my bag longer than any other individual disc, and it still kicks the crap out of my star firebird.



It's too difficult to tell ahead of time with drivers, whether there will be any flight difference between Champion and Star.

If you can find them, the Moray was the stable version of the Stingray and comes close to the charateristics you are looking for. Not sure it's even made in DX anymore.



Got a ton of the Star Stamps.

Dose anyone know where you can buy the new star eagle???

discgolfvalues.com
zonedriven.com
discndatonline.com
and like a billion other places
look at the innova online dealers page

If you can find them, the Moray was the stable version of the Stingray and comes close to the charateristics you are looking for. Not sure it's even made in DX anymore.



I would love to get a new Moray, maybe a star one Dave. Please!!! For a fundraiser.



I don't know if this has been said previously, but a Sentinel is your best bet other than picking up a Moray from someone other than Innova. We stopped making Morays years ago. There is a very small chance that we might make one, (or one like it) for another company, but that's not a good bet.

Hi Dave,

i just read that the Aero once held the World Distance record at 485 feet! do you remember who threw it that far and what year that was?

was it your World Distance record with a Whamo mold that the Aero later broke? :eek:

My guesses would be Sam Ferrans or Frank Aguilera...

It was Frank, I'm thinking '83 or '84.

Frank Aguilera threw the Aero in 1984. First record with a beveled edge.

Dave's record was broken by Van Miller in 1980 with a Brand X. They were similar to Midnight Fliers. Pretty heavy lid. I have one on my wall in decent condition Im staring at right now! :cool:

Hi Dave,

i just read that the Aero once held the World Distance record at 485 feet! do you remember who threw it that far and what year that was?

was it your World Distance record with a Whamo mold that the Aero later broke? :eek:



Frank Aguillera set the record in Las Vegas 1985 with an Aero. I also broke the record at that tourney with an Aero, but mine was O.B. over a school bungalow. My previous record was with a 141 gm 41 mold of 458 ft. I broke a long standing record of John Kirkland in Dallas, I believe, of 444 ft. My record was broken by a 170 gm Golf Disc (Brand X) thrown by Van Miller 471 ft. All of theses records had real good wind and/or altitude. When Sam Ferrans broke the record in 1987 with a Phenix, (retooled Aero), he had low altitude and only a fair wind at La Mirada.

I just looked up some of the dates on discgolfvalues. He has different dates than I remember. 1984 for Aguillera, 1988 for Ferrans, and 1978 for Kirkland.

I wonder what Kirkland threw in '78 for his record? Wouldn't that have been pre-Midnight Flyer?

Dave - did you find that the 41 mold turned over a little easier, making it better for pure distance?

Frank Aguillera set the record in Las Vegas 1985 with an Aero. I also broke the record at that tourney with an Aero, but mine was O.B. over a school bungalow. My previous record was with a 141 gm 41 mold of 458 ft. I broke a long standing record of John Kirkland in Dallas, I believe, of 444 ft. My record was broken by a 170 gm Golf Disc (Brand X) thrown by Van Miller 471 ft. All of theses records had real good wind and/or altitude. When Sam Ferrans broke the record in 1987 with a Phenix, (retooled Aero), he had low altitude and only a fair wind at La Mirada.



wow, that must of been a little frustrating to see your throw sail OB. still, i guess you took some solace in seeing your baby (the Aero) break the record. (even though i think your goal with the Eagle/Aero was to create a disc that was more golf -- as opposed to distance -- friendly(?)

how do you throw a 141 gm 41 mold 458 ft? is the 41 mold similar to the old "world class" frisbees i used to play catch with as a kid? (i was born in 1962)


I just looked up some of the dates on discgolfvalues. He has different dates than I remember. 1984 for Aguillera, 1988 for Ferrans, and 1978 for Kirkland.



:eek: do you think mark (www.discgolfvalues.com) is right?

Hey Dave ,

My Champion TeeBird is getting a bit worn down and I was wondering if a Overstable TeeBird could be made.

Maybe call it a X-Bird or something. Or TeeBird- X ?

I like the way the TeeBird fits into my hand and love the release it has. The rim feels alot different on the release for me than a Monster , TeeRex-X , or Max does.

Maybe it's the smaller diameter or deeper rim depth ?

I really would like a Star Whippet , but for now I'll just put more angle on my Champion Teebird.

I would throw a X-Bird for sure !!!!! :D

Any Thoughts ?

Donny O.

Donny,

An overstable Teebird is an Eagle. I just got some of the new Star Eagles. They are butter!!

Star Eagles. :eek: Must be new !!!!

70 Mold = 97g World Class
40 Mold = 119g World Class
50 Mold = 141g World Class
80 Mold = 165g World Class

The Midnight Flyers were weighted heavier than the World Class. Brand X 40X is like the 40 Mold.

hey quickdisc,
I'm a big teebird thrower and I also love the way it feels in the hand(especially in the new DX). I have found 11x teebirds(candy) to be the most overstable out of all the teebirds.
If you can sacrifice the feel in the hand for a disc that is faster and more overstable you can give a star teerex a try. I use them for longer hyzers and also for headwind. I have 2 of them. the 172gm i have is actually starting to break in quick. It doesn't fight a headwind well, but it is a great long distance driver now. My 175 is just a stable pig and handles headwinds very well.
just thought i'd give you my 2 cents.

-Scott Lewis

I've been waitin' on a STAR XD. Which would you consider most like it?
The Star Aviar or The Star Aviar Driver?

probably the star aviar since from throwing i haven't found the XD to be overstable at all.

-Scott Lewis

I don't have the Star Aviar Driver yet. So, you would condider it more overstable?

Stll luvin' my Star Leopard.

is an SOLF like a longer, faster Teebird? or maybe a Champion Starfire (not the SL)

is an SOLF like a longer, faster Teebird?



NO

Hey Dave ,

My Champion TeeBird is getting a bit worn down and I was wondering if a Overstable TeeBird could be made.

Maybe call it a X-Bird or something. Or TeeBird- X ?

I like the way the TeeBird fits into my hand and love the release it has. The rim feels alot different on the release for me than a Monster , TeeRex-X , or Max does.

Maybe it's the smaller diameter or deeper rim depth ?

I really would like a Star Whippet , but for now I'll just put more angle on my Champion Teebird.

I would throw a X-Bird for sure !!!!! :D

Any Thoughts ?

Donny O.



I had a white Star Teebird that was nice and stable, like you are talking about. I also got a red one that was super overstable. It was dark red like 1st run CE. Maybe you should try one of those.

I bet the Star Eagle is what you are looking for too.

I'd say this most compares (now this is jsut my experiences and opinion) to a Special Blend Orc.
I love this disc. It's my everything disc, Head winds, light to medium, Hyzer shots etc... It's also my longest disc.

[how do you throw a 141 gm 41 mold 458 ft? is the 41 mold similar to the old "world class" frisbees i used to play catch with as a kid? (i was born in 1962)

Same mold, in slightly heavier glo plastic. Release with lots of hyzer, almost perpendicular to the ground. Throw it high, to the right of the wind (RHBH), and let it turn up to flat. Ideally it then stays flat for the rest of flight with a straight tailwind. If you were lucky the disc also took a couple of lifts straight up, on its way forward :D This was the commonly used basic technique for max d before the beveled edge revolution with Dave's original Eagle and Aero. (And then of course we had the japanese guy who threw a Wham-O Fastback! 152 meters (500ft). Apparently he made this throw almost up against the wind, letting the disc lift and then blow backwards out on the field for the rest of the flight, much like a hugeTRC throw.)




:eek: do you think mark (http://www.discgolfvalues.com) is right?

He actually got that list from me. I did a lot of research for an article i did on early disc technology evolution history for a swedish flying disc magazine. The list is compiled mainly from the official WFDF records, completed by info from some old magazines and books. My main job was to dig up what discs where used since that data had not been saved before. Mark missed to get the footnotes in though, when publishing it at discgolfvalues. The complete original list can be found at http://hem.bredband.net/area46/engelska/frisbee/WorldDistanceRecordsHistory.pdf

Now if you think I got it right or not, is of course a whole other story... :D;)

i haven't thrown the star aviar driver either, but i have thrown jk, kc, and old bb dx aviars and they are all way more overstable than a regular DX aviar.. so the aviar driver would be too overstable to be like the XD.. the star aviar is not as overstable as a KC so i would say that the star aviar would be much closer than the XD.. hope that helped.

-Scott Lewis

is the star eagle the X mold or the L mold?

I've been waitin' on a STAR XD. Which would you consider most like it?
The Star Aviar or The Star Aviar Driver?


The old CE/CFR Classic Rocs would be a semi-beefier XD...I'm guessing... :o:D

is an SOLF like a longer, faster Teebird?



NO


Hmmmm...why not? :confused:

Marshall Street (http://www.marshallstreetdiscgolf.com) has STAR XDs in white, InnColor, & tie-dyed varieties. Enjoy!

Interesting that the Star XDs only range b/tw 165-168...am guessing the heavies went FAST...or CFR?

The InnColor Star XD I saw and threw was extremely overstable. Not XD like at all.

MC

I was wondering how a star Max compares to a champion moster? and what are the most over stable drives innova makes? and what plastic are they most overstable in?

I would say they have significant similarities. Both are great for long skip shots and head winds of course. I have a firebird (or two) and a Max in my bag and I've taken out the pro line monster because of the Max. I would say if you have a firebird you like to throw, go for the Max instead of the monster. The rim of the max is very wide though. I haven't had much success throwing side arm with it.

Most overstable innova disc - champ whippet, ram

I'd say this most compares (now this is jsut my experiences and opinion) to a Special Blend Orc.
I love this disc. It's my everything disc, Head winds, light to medium, Hyzer shots etc... It's also my longest disc.



imo, the Special Blend Orc is beyond compare. Blue Tulsa swoosh stamp ones are my favorite disc.

is an SOLF like a longer, faster Teebird?



NO



"For distance, accuracy, and wind resistance, the Orion LF is the complete package. It's one of the top 3 long drivers i have ever designed ... maybe even #1. If you're only going to have one driver in your bag -- and you want top performance -- the Orion LF is it." -- Dave Dunipace

:eek: source: Millenium website (http://www.golfdisc.com/whatsnew.shtml) :eek:

:D

Hey Dave or anyone that might know,
IS there a list of all the colors that each plastic comes in?? I'm looking to see what colors are available for DX and Star.. I know most of the colors, but i'm looking for the complete list..
Mostly wondering if DX discs are made in any Pink or HOt pink or Neon Green or Orange.

-Scott Lewis

Mostly wondering if DX discs are made in any Pink or HOt pink or Neon Green or Orange.

-Scott Lewis





Yes, they do. Not sure about neon green, but I have seen Kelly green.

Mostly wondering if DX discs are made in any Pink or HOt pink or Neon Green or Orange.

-Scott Lewis





Yes, they do. Not sure about neon green, but I have seen Kelly green.


Just picked up a neon green 150-class DX Wraith at the DtW open house. OK, maybe it's more pistachio than neon green, but it's **** bright either way.

"For distance, accuracy, and wind resistance, the Orion LF is the complete package. It's one of the top 3 long drivers i have ever designed ... maybe even #1. If you're only going to have one driver in your bag -- and you want top performance -- the Orion LF is it." -- Dave Dunipace



I think the SOLF is very similar to a DX Teebird. The Star Valk is also very similar to the SOLF with less nose diving fade at the end of the flight.

The HSS is similar on both when the discs are new. The SOLF will only take a little more headwind.

I wonder what Kirkland threw in '78 for his record? Wouldn't that have been pre-Midnight Flyer?

Dave - did you find that the 41 mold turned over a little easier, making it better for pure distance?



I can ask John K next time I see him, but I recall he threw a yellow 119 g 40 mold. Not a Midnight Flyer. I am not sure Midnight Flyers were even out at the time. Maybe Night Flyers, the original DGA offering. I also remember the date as earlier, so I could be wrong.

Yes, the 41 mold did have a little turn which made the hyzer flip easier to do. Most of the time, I threw 40 molds and threw anhyzer. (Getting altitude with nose down was the objective). I won the Worlds with a 70 mold, which was a little smaller and more flippy than a 41.

Hey Dave ,

My Champion TeeBird is getting a bit worn down and I was wondering if a Overstable TeeBird could be made.

Maybe call it a X-Bird or something. Or TeeBird- X ?

I like the way the TeeBird fits into my hand and love the release it has. The rim feels alot different on the release for me than a Monster , TeeRex-X , or Max does.

Maybe it's the smaller diameter or deeper rim depth ?

I really would like a Star Whippet , but for now I'll just put more angle on my Champion Teebird.

I would throw a X-Bird for sure !!!!! :D

Any Thoughts ?

Donny O.



My first thought, (besides thinking the Whippet is way more overstable than a TeeBird), is Banshee. Same size rim and more overstability, but not as much as a Whippet. The suggestions for the Star Eagle X are good too, I believe. The next disc in line would be the Firebird, though the rim is a little bigger than the TeeBird.

is the star eagle the X mold or the L mold?



X mold

is an SOLF like a longer, faster Teebird?



NO



"For distance, accuracy, and wind resistance, the Orion LF is the complete package. It's one of the top 3 long drivers i have ever designed ... maybe even #1. If you're only going to have one driver in your bag -- and you want top performance -- the Orion LF is it." -- Dave Dunipace

:eek: source: Millenium website (http://www.golfdisc.com/whatsnew.shtml) :eek:

:D



When I made this quote, I was talking about the Q OLF. My experience, (not much really), with the S OLF, was that it wasn't as high speed stable as the Q, and was a little more low speed overstable. The complete statement was that the Q OLF was one of the best long range drivers I have designed, and in 150 class, it might be the best.

is an SOLF like a longer, faster Teebird?



NO



"For distance, accuracy, and wind resistance, the Orion LF is the complete package. It's one of the top 3 long drivers i have ever designed ... maybe even #1. If you're only going to have one driver in your bag -- and you want top performance -- the Orion LF is it." -- Dave Dunipace

:eek: source: Millenium website (http://www.golfdisc.com/whatsnew.shtml) :eek:

:D



When I made this quote, I was talking about the Q OLF. My experience, (not much really), with the S OLF, was that it wasn't as high speed stable as the Q, and was a little more low speed overstable. The complete statement was that the Q OLF was one of the best long range drivers I have designed, and in 150 class, it might be the best.



Dave, if the QOLF is one of the top 3 long range drivers, what are the other 2? (or 5 for that matter) Where would you rank the Teebird? Thanks for your time!

Dave, if the QOLF is one of the top 3 long range drivers, what are the other 2? (or 5 for that matter) Where would you rank the Teebird? Thanks for your time!



It's really hard to rank discs for anyone but myself. The TeeBird is now considered a fairway driver and is definitely one of the best along with the Eagle, Leopard, and Gazelle, IMO.

For long range drivers: The Champion Viking is one of my favorites along with the Starfire. The Firebird is up there too, although I don't use overstable drivers much. I love my Star Wraith, but I don't consider it on my all time list because it's harder to throw accurately.

Where can we find the Q OLF 150g discs? I've never seen any for sale.

Hey Dave--do you think the flight differences in the Q and S OLF are due to the fact that the Q seem to be a little more domey than the S? this has been my experience with them, but i do have a few red 1st run S OLF that are domey like the Q. they fly like the Q to me. most Solf i have seen are flatter on top. i assume this is the reason for the difference, do you agree? thanks again. is there an outside chance you would run some OLF in dx? maybe for fundraisers?

Where can we find the Q OLF 150g discs? I've never seen any for sale.



I don't think there are any left from the first run. They went pretty quickly. They need to be run again. Millennium would need to order them.

Hey Dave--do you think the flight differences in the Q and S OLF are due to the fact that the Q seem to be a little more domey than the S? this has been my experience with them, but i do have a few red 1st run S OLF that are domey like the Q. they fly like the Q to me. most Solf i have seen are flatter on top. i assume this is the reason for the difference, do you agree? thanks again. is there an outside chance you would run some OLF in dx? maybe for fundraisers?



I agree that the domey ones are more stable than the flatter ones, but I don't think you can attribute causality. Most of the time, domey discs are less stable.

Millennium orders what we make for OLFs and they don't have DX, so I don't think we will be running any.

This may have already been answered, but I'm new on this forum. Is there any immediate plans for a star or preferrably champion Whippet.

They have talked about limited runs for team members, but I hope they will run a CFR Glow run of Whippets. Great durability and I think the Glow plastic is even more overstable.

This may have already been answered, but I'm new on this forum. Is there any immediate plans for a star or preferrably champion Whippet.



Not Champion, but we do plan on doing a small run of Star Whippets as soon as we can. Probably Feb or March.

is there an ETA yet on Star Roadrunners?

is an SOLF like a longer, faster Teebird?



NO



"For distance, accuracy, and wind resistance, the Orion LF is the complete package. It's one of the top 3 long drivers i have ever designed ... maybe even #1. If you're only going to have one driver in your bag -- and you want top performance -- the Orion LF is it." -- Dave Dunipace

:eek: source: Millenium website (http://www.golfdisc.com/whatsnew.shtml) :eek:

:D



When I made this quote, I was talking about the Q OLF. My experience, (not much really), with the S OLF, was that it wasn't as high speed stable as the Q, and was a little more low speed overstable. The complete statement was that the Q OLF was one of the best long range drivers I have designed, and in 150 class, it might be the best.



I've thrown Red, Yellow, and Orange SOLFs and each have been different. I've thrown white, yellow, and orange QOLFs, and they are consistent with each other. Orange Sirius was most flippy (also very domey), yellow was the same as Q, and Red is hands down more stable than the Qs. Do you think that the more low speed fade you experienced with the Sirius OLF was due to it seemingly slightly faster flight speed?

Anyway, I agree that the OLF is one of the best molds out there for distance, accuracy, and nose angle forgiveness for a disc that can be used for overstable shots. One other question: Is the OLF an Orc top with a Firebird bottom? Looks like it to me.

is there an ETA yet on Star Roadrunners?



No, not yet. I am thinking about doing something different for them.

Do you think that the more low speed fade you experienced with the Sirius OLF was due to it seemingly slightly faster flight speed?

Anyway, I agree that the OLF is one of the best molds out there for distance, accuracy, and nose angle forgiveness for a disc that can be used for overstable shots. One other question: Is the OLF an Orc top with a Firebird bottom? Looks like it to me.



Yes, the added SOLF overstable low speed is related to the extra speed. No, the OLF is not an Orc top with a Firebird bottom, but it is designed with similar parts.

Hey Dave,

a little feedback on a couple of discs:

Got a chance to get out and throw some new discs this past weekend.. The Star Max and this years Spectator Roc

I am starting to like the MAX...I first thought it was too stable for my needs but I have found a spot for it in the bag. I was originally using the T-REX into headwinds instead of the Wraith...I wasn't getting what I wanted out of the T-Rex so I thought the MAX might be better and sure enough it was. We had 10-20mph winds all weekend here in OKIEland and it didn't once flip. I even was rolling it over slightly to get it to cover more distance. It would fly nice and straight into the headwind until it lost speed and hooked back right on cue. I really like the STAR MAX..it will replace my T-REX in the bag.

The ROC seemed to be more stable than the Red and Blue Special Blends from a few years back but it wasn't overwhelmingly stable like a brand new KC ROC or a Super Roc. I liked it, it was a 180 White one. We did have snow on the ground and it was chilly, not sure how much temperature has to do with stability but I would compare it to a brand new Ontario Roc (maybe a little more stable) right off the rack.

McCoy ;)

Thanks Kevin. We are sending you a new Star TeeRex and Star Eagle to test.

is there an ETA yet on Star Roadrunners?



No, not yet. I am thinking about doing something different for them.



:eek: what do you mean by 'something different'?

Dave,
For my birthday, please make some STAR Cobras! I picked up some STAR Classic Cobras and they are money! I think STAR Cobras would be the STAR slightly-beat-up-roc I've been looking for.
PLEASE!
Thanks,
Colin

Keep pleading, Colin. It worked for me & STAR Gremlins! ;)

Worked for my star rhynos too. Figured I'd play the sympathy card this time.

now we just need the Beaded Gremlin Mold in Star.. It would be like a small diameter meat hook of a midrange.

-Scott Lewis

is there an ETA yet on Star Roadrunners?



No, not yet. I am thinking about doing something different for them.



:eek: what do you mean by 'something different'?



Something different than normal Star. Maybe gummy Star. I haven't thought it through yet.

is there an ETA yet on Star Roadrunners?



No, not yet. I am thinking about doing something different for them.



:eek: what do you mean by 'something different'?



Something different than normal Star. Maybe gummy Star. I haven't thought it through yet.


Gummy Star Roadrunners!!!! If you can run them in lighter weights they would be the go-to disc of my fellow members of the weenie-arm brigade!!!!!

Seriously - there is a canyon-sized niche to fill with that disc. Lots of players who need to roll to get distance, or who need the RR's -4 in order to throw a hyzer-flip.

Bring 'em on!

I'd try a 150g gummy STAR RR. Might complement/replace my 150g gummy Ch. SW for effortless rollers.

I'd try a 150g gummy STAR RR. Might complement/replace my 150g gummy Ch. SW for effortless rollers.



That's what I'm sayin'.

is there an ETA yet on Star Roadrunners?



No, not yet. I am thinking about doing something different for them.



:eek: what do you mean by 'something different'?



Something different than normal Star. Maybe gummy Star. I haven't thought it through yet.



gummy Star Roadrunners sound like sweet candy!
but, haven't we already waited for the Star Roadrunner long enough :confused: :D

you're trying to make me throw my night-shift "star" Roadrunner -- aren't you? /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

i just got a star gator and so far i love it!! it has the flight path as the champion but seems to fly further. great job dave.

Hi Dave,


any thoughts to the labeling on the bottom of the Star Eagles?

S E-X?

Hi Dave,


any thoughts to the labeling on the bottom of the Star Eagles?

S E-X?



Like that time they did the Firebird Ultra Control in that experimental K Plastic?

Hi Dave,


any thoughts to the labeling on the bottom of the Star Eagles?

S E-X?



No thoughts, but that is how they are labeled.

Dave, can you give a history of the XD? I have a few older ones, some are marked "San Marino" (the oldest ones) and one is marked "Ontario". All appear to have versions of the "chains" hotstamp. The oldest San Marino XD also has the word "Aviar" stamped on the front.

I find the older ones to fly better for me. The plastic is much stiffer than the current XD plastic. I use the XD for short turnover shots.

Reason I ask is that the old San Marino one I have is getting a bit beat. I have an even older San Marino one (with "Aviar" on it, looks very old) and an old Ontario one in my collection, and I'm wondering about the differences before I actually throw one of 'em!

Thanks,

-E

i just got a star gator as well. the reason it flys farther is because it is less overstable. it is definately a L version. mine is much more domey than the champ, and has no bead on the bottom. it flys like a dx or worn champ gator. at least mine is anyway.

i did notice the dome but so far mine flys pretty overstable. it may just need to be broken in a little.

Gator L ... wah. Guess the Demon is staying in my bag.

Dave, can you give a history of the XD? I have a few older ones, some are marked "San Marino" (the oldest ones) and one is marked "Ontario". All appear to have versions of the "chains" hotstamp. The oldest San Marino XD also has the word "Aviar" stamped on the front.

I find the older ones to fly better for me. The plastic is much stiffer than the current XD plastic. I use the XD for short turnover shots.

Reason I ask is that the old San Marino one I have is getting a bit beat. I have an even older San Marino one (with "Aviar" on it, looks very old) and an old Ontario one in my collection, and I'm wondering about the differences before I actually throw one of 'em!

Thanks,

-E



There really is no difference in any XD based on vintage. The differences you may experience have to do with material and molding at the time they were made. These have varied from the first time they were made. The first run was a putter type plastic. Later runs may have been as stiff as the red "exploding" XDs. I have thrown the original and the ones we are making now, and I don't find any difference in flight in the same material. That being said, I have heard that the Star XDs are more stable than the DX. If you are looking for a turning XD, I would try a DX and season it a bit. If you are looking for something more stable, you could try the Star or any version of the Classic Roc. The Classic Roc was the original small diameter Roc which was very similar to the XD, but more high speed stable. At any rate, the plastic on the current DX XD is a putter type plastic and may not be suitable for your needs.

is there any chance of a star banshee any time soon?

is there any chance of a star banshee any time soon?



No, not soon.

Hey Dave have you ever thought about making a game for the XBox or something. I think you could hire someone to make a rough draft and then go and try to sell the idea to EA or someone.

Dave, thanks for the XD info.

Yeah, I guess I just prefer the older ones because of the stiffer plastic.

-E

Be careful with the older XD. That's what I began playing with in the mid 80's. Broke at least a dozen on cold days. The burnt orange ones with green stamps were the BOMB.

My son uses one for approaching, sweet touch disc.

Breaking discs in the cold is not something we generally concern ourselves with in Central California. :p

You broke those old XDs in the cold in Las Vegas??? I didn't think it got too cold there either...

-E

Hey Dave have you ever thought about making a game for the XBox or something. I think you could hire someone to make a rough draft and then go and try to sell the idea to EA or someone.



We have done that in the past. It's really not our thing. There is a new game on a portable Playstation I think.

I was all excited today to pickup another Max and the Big Bead Star Aviar today but as I was going through what we got in I noticed alot of discs that had the flashing removed and there were gouges in the rims from over cutting.
So needless to say I skipped getting a Max cause they all looked cut up (direct from the factory)
I guess I'll have to resort to paying the shipping cost and get one from a online store.
Just a heads up to you guys to check the rims for cuts before sending em out.
Other than that I think the new discs will be a big hit. The Max will probably replace my Monster in my bag.

Sorry, about the trim job. Usually the Max guys are very good at trimming as they are both veterans.

It's all good. Only thing I ask is don't change the mold to a L mold, its perfect the way it is.
haha

Do the Swirly mixed colors always come out in the first run of the star plastic? I've seen some really great looking discs coming out this run from you guys.

It's all good. Only thing I ask is don't change the mold to a L mold, its perfect the way it is.
haha



My Star Max is an L mold. :confused: The first run Maxes that Ken Climo had were X mold bottoms like a Firebird. The one I just bought is definetely an L type mold. In fact it is very remniscent of the FL mold, only wider. Confusing yes, but I'm very happy none the less as this thing booms and is much more reliable and feels better in the hand than a TeeRex imo. It is not however balls out overstable.

It's all good. Only thing I ask is don't change the mold to a L mold, its perfect the way it is.
haha

Do the Swirly mixed colors always come out in the first run of the star plastic? I've seen some really great looking discs coming out this run from you guys.



The Star Max is an L type. The swirly colors could be made at any time we are running Star.

The Star Max is an L type? OMG! I can't imagine the X!

Breaking discs in the cold is not something we generally concern ourselves with in Central California. :p

You broke those old XDs in the cold in Las Vegas??? I didn't think it got too cold there either...

-E



Forecast today is for possible snow showers down to 3500 ft. Mt Crest is probably at that elevation, and Anthem. It does get cold here.

Don't leave your discs in the car in the summer here, unless you want them warped by the heat.

i can't imagine an x mold. the MAX i have is way over stable. it goes forever on a hyzer line though with no chance of flip. great disc.

Dave, I tried looking on the Innova website and couldn't find what I'm loking for. So I'll ask you here. I got a Champion firebird here not too long ago and right off the bat this disc didn't fly like any Champion firebird I have ever thrown. I'll throw this disc flat and it will tend to start sliding to the right on me, nowhere near as stble as I am used to.

Was there a change made to this disc and is there anywhere I can find changes made to discs before I go buy them?

I gotta think this has been previously addressed but could not find it so.....How do I tell if the red Champion Edition discs I have are first run or not? ...&... Is INNOVA ever going to stamp 1st run on any of their discs other than DX to avoid all the confusion?...Thanks....

Dave,

I picked up a 175 Star BB Aviar.

I would say this disc might be a world beater. I can see why folks like this mold so much. I never like the gummy Aviar X plastic so I never tried it. I use the KC Pro Aviar for driving. This version will not take the driving snap or headwind of a KC Pro, but I guess it is quite a bit domier (like the JK), but for 50'-100' it snaps to dead straight from a little anheyser and does not really fade at the basket (which is shocking). It is going to take some getting used to, because it does not anheyser, it just goes straight.

My only comment would be that I would like to a see a little "chalkier" Star plastic instead of the more shiny Star plastic. I guess the shine will wear off some with abuse.

Maybe someday try to get the KC Pro shape in the Star plastic.

Dave, is there any designation on MAX L's and MAX X's? Are most MAX's you sent to retailers the L mold?

Dave, I tried looking on the Innova website and couldn't find what I'm loking for. So I'll ask you here. I got a Champion firebird here not too long ago and right off the bat this disc didn't fly like any Champion firebird I have ever thrown. I'll throw this disc flat and it will tend to start sliding to the right on me, nowhere near as stble as I am used to.

Was there a change made to this disc and is there anywhere I can find changes made to discs before I go buy them?



No changes made. The Champion Firebirds are the normal X type. The Star FLs are the L type. If there is a significant change, we usually will put it in the Innova news. On the other hand, there are differences that occur between runs and inside of runs that have nothing to do with mold changes. We don't always know why the variations occur.

I gotta think this has been previously addressed but could not find it so.....How do I tell if the red Champion Edition discs I have are first run or not? ...&... Is INNOVA ever going to stamp 1st run on any of their discs other than DX to avoid all the confusion?...Thanks....



Yes, we are putting first run stamps on most of the new discs, but sometimes we don't.

Dave, is there any designation on MAX L's and MAX X's? Are most MAX's you sent to retailers the L mold?



All of the Maxes sent to the retailers were normal L type. I am not sure if we even tested any X type as the L type were perfect.

Got my Max today. Gave it a good test and a good round. Yea, it's perfect. Thank goodness it's an "L". It's my fast Firebird. Ready to try it out in a major wind, probably hard and flat with overstable finish. Thanks. Oh Yea, it's Taffy-Like, Sweet.

how does the eagle-x vary from the orc or starfire? i have been testing out a star eagle and it seems to fly very similar. a little slower is the only difference i have noticed so far. when it stopos raining here i will test more.

This topic has probably already been discussed but I couldn't find it.

Are the 0time KC PRO ROCS the same as 11x with a different stamp, or was it re-tooled at all.

If there is going to be a 12x Roc will it be retooled?

how does the eagle-x vary from the orc or starfire? i have been testing out a star eagle and it seems to fly very similar. a little slower is the only difference i have noticed so far. when it stopos raining here i will test more.



As you say, the Eagle X is a little slower, but I think it is a little more consistent too. T

This topic has probably already been discussed but I couldn't find it.

Are the 0time KC PRO ROCS the same as 11x with a different stamp, or was it re-tooled at all.

If there is going to be a 12x Roc will it be retooled?



I think the 8X and 10X might have been Ontario type. The 11X and 12X are Rancho type. Ranchos are generally a little more overstable. There was no retooling involved before. We have multiple tools we can use. We usually only use the Rancho type anymore, unless we have a special run.

Which is the type that you prefer?

Ontario...

Rancho

10X Ontario mold for sure...the 11X have there uses but take forever to beat in. For that matter I even like the 10X Aviar better than the 11X but i don't have the money to go out and buy 10X aviars for $30-$40 and 10X rocs for $35-$50. You could always do a CFR run. :D

Ontarios.

Was the rancho roc mold retooled? The reason I ask is I have a stack of new dx roc's from when it still had the bar stamp and compared to the new dx roc's they fly less stable brand new.

My favorite ROC's are Ontario's that have been used and abused. A ROC that I can toss with a hyzer and let it flip up or over. Those ROC'S just have a beautiful flight.

With that said I do live in one of the windiest states in the country, so a new fresh 11x KC ROC is always needed, plus is very handy for open holes under 300.

I have also used Super ROC's and a Champ ROC for windy days and shorter holes, but the KC ROCS just have that real nice plastic, and are relatively stiff.

The only ROC, that I would put in the "not my style" category are the flat DX guys. The best thing about ROC's is that when in doubt, throw a ROC.

;)

The only ROC, that I would put in the "not my style" category are the flat DX guys. The best thing about ROC's is that when in doubt, throw a ROC.;)



I am a flat DX guy.

I think the pressed flat Roc may be the best disc ever made. The pressing of the dome also makes it most consistent flying disc I have used. The Ching Roc is a little faster, a lot more HSS and still beats in dead straight if that is your cup of tea.

Send me your Ching Rocs...I will throw them.

Was the rancho roc mold retooled? The reason I ask is I have a stack of new dx roc's from when it still had the bar stamp and compared to the new dx roc's they fly less stable brand new.



The Rancho Roc hasn't been touched since it was made.

ONTARIO 8X and 10X best IMO , I dont even throw Rocs for Stable Mid Range anymore.......Champion and Star Sharks for Stable to Overstable.

Ontario DX, with the SB's coming in a close second. Come on Dave brush the dust off of that mold and make us Ontario lovers some more Rocs.......please please please.

Peace
Scott

Ontario mold is my favorite. The extra glide is the main reason. Although I just put a Star Coyote in the bag and it is filling in nicely as a straight floaty midrange. I would love to see another run of Ontarios.

Which is the type that you prefer?



Maybe this will sound greedy -- but since there is a difference between the two molds, and the KC Pro plastic is excellent stuff -- how about making both molds available?

Ontario for sure.

Maybe this will sound greedy -- but since there is a difference between the two molds, and the KC Pro plastic is excellent stuff -- how about making both molds available?


Maybe a 12X KC Roc and 12X KC Roc-X?? I also like that idea. :D

Maybe this will sound greedy -- but since there is a difference between the two molds, and the KC Pro plastic is excellent stuff -- how about making both molds available?


Maybe a 12X KC Roc and 12X KC Roc-X?? I also like that idea. :D

ahhhhhhh, now that sounds feasable.

Maybe I'm just showing my naivety, but why are there different molds anyway? I mean, I understand that Innova has moved operations over the years from San Marino, to Ontario and now to Rancho; but why a seperate mold for each location? Wasn't it possible to just take the San Marino mold to Ontario and keep making 'San Marino' Rocs in Ontario, and now in the Rancho plant?

Or were the molds changed for other reasons? :confused:


sleepy

My vote is for both molds being run ... that would be great! I throw both, but probably count on my ontarios most. I don't think you can have a well rounded bag without both molds.
I usually carry one CH, one SB, two 10x KC's, and one really broken in DX.
My vote is for a 12x Ontario mold KC ROC! ;)
They will sell like hotcakes!

Maybe I'm just showing my naivety, but why are there different molds anyway? I mean, I understand that Innova has moved operations over the years from San Marino, to Ontario and now to Rancho; but why a seperate mold for each location? Wasn't it possible to just take the San Marino mold to Ontario and keep making 'San Marino' Rocs in Ontario, and now in the Rancho plant?

Or were the molds changed for other reasons? :confused:


sleepy



They changed the mold to make it more stable, and it does not have anything to do with the cities. When Innova moved to Rancho they started tooling Rancho on the new molds being made. If a mold has not been changed in years, then it probably still says San Marino or Ontario. If it is a new mold or a retool, it probably says Rancho... Hopefully Dave will chime in on exactly why the Roc was changed. Was it at the request of a team member?

Well, I think it's obvious that everyone wants to have at least a couple of really stable Rocs in their bag. The flip side is that everyone also wants to have a few Rocs that are stable-understable too. If it was the Ontario mold (if it's different) used for the 8x and 10x Roc, it's obvious that that mold is very popular and that the plastic is great too.
The problem I see with the Rancho mold for CH or harder plastics (not DX, it breaks in easily) is the time it takes to get that mold to break in so it will turn over predicably. It's easier to break in a 8x or 10x KC so it will flip or turnover sooner.
Both molds are great, and I think it would be awesome to be able to buy both in a new disc.

Maybe I'm just showing my naivety, but why are there different molds anyway? I mean, I understand that Innova has moved operations over the years from San Marino, to Ontario and now to Rancho; but why a seperate mold for each location? Wasn't it possible to just take the San Marino mold to Ontario and keep making 'San Marino' Rocs in Ontario, and now in the Rancho plant?

Or were the molds changed for other reasons? :confused:


sleepy



They changed the mold to make it more stable, and it does not have anything to do with the cities. When Innova moved to Rancho they started tooling Rancho on the new molds being made. If a mold has not been changed in years, then it probably still says San Marino or Ontario. If it is a new mold or a retool, it probably says Rancho... Hopefully Dave will chime in on exactly why the Roc was changed. Was it at the request of a team member?



The Roc was remade completely in the Rancho Mold. The Roc and the Shark had gotten too close in flight character and we wanted the Roc to be consistently stable to slightly overstable to start. We now have the capability to make Rocs any way we want for special projects like the SB Ontarios. We probably won't offer Ontarios as a regular item as we feel the Shark occupies that niche well. But, we also know that nothing but a Roc will do for many Rocophiles, so we will run Ontarios as special offerings from time to time.

If a mold has not been changed in years, then it probably still says San Marino or Ontario.


Ahhhhh...which would explain why the Aviar P&A still has San Marino on the bottom. ;)

Thanks for clearing that up for me, Dave and everyone!


sleepy

Dave,

What's the difference (mold wise) between the Gator and the "retooled" Classic Roc?
Any chance you have some '02 CE Classics laying around?? Any chance in running the '02 mold again? I can't get over the stability change of the '04 retool.

Dave,

What's the difference (mold wise) between the Gator and the "retooled" Classic Roc?
Any chance you have some '02 CE Classics laying around?? Any chance in running the '02 mold again? I can't get over the stability change of the '04 retool.



The Gator is a larger rimmed, faster flying, more overstable disc than the Classic Roc. The original mold still exists, but was too similar to the XD in Star plastic.

We may have some original type CE 02s still. Your best bet is to contact Mark at discgolfvalues.com. He has a good handle on all older type discs.

The Star XD or Champion XD might also be a good bet for what you are looking for. I think Marshall Street might have some of those.

The Roc was remade completely in the Rancho Mold. The Roc and the Shark had gotten too close in flight character and we wanted the Roc to be consistently stable to slightly overstable to start. We now have the capability to make Rocs any way we want for special projects like the SB Ontarios. We probably won't offer Ontarios as a regular item as we feel the Shark occupies that niche well. But, we also know that nothing but a Roc will do for many Rocophiles, so we will run Ontarios as special offerings from time to time.



How about regular releasing Star Ontarios and staying with KC Pro Ranchos as regulars?

for fund raisers, sell Champion Ontarios and Star Ranchos.

... ^ just an idea ^ ...

Hey Dave, What came first the Chicken or the EGG ?????? :confused:

Well the main problem with making the ontario's in star is that they are the same stability as the 11X KC rocs. 10X rocs could be thrown at various angles and would hold that line for 80%-85% of the flight. Every 11X I have ever owned has required 4 months or more of constant wear (trees, concrete, gavel, spike shots and baskets) just to get a stable flight. I've tried beating in DX Roc but I just don't like the plastic nearly as well. Another run of KC Ontario rocs would just be a dream come true :D

What would you rate an Ontario Roc on your rating system Dave?? Thanks
Scott

the main reason i throw Coyotes and QMS's is that Ontario Rocs are too hard to come by. where would a DX Shark fit into that picture? i have thrown a Champ Shark and it seemed to want to be a NASCAR disc ... (all left turns).

The Star XD or Champion XD might also be a good bet for what you are looking for. I think Marshall Street might have some of those.



Champion XD :confused:?
Can�t find them at Marshall, how many was made?

What would you rate an Ontario Roc on your rating system Dave?? Thanks
Scott



If there were any change to the numbers, it would be slight. Maybe a tad slower with a little more glide and a little less overstability. Very similar to the Shark.

the main reason i throw Coyotes and QMS's is that Ontario Rocs are too hard to come by. where would a DX Shark fit into that picture? i have thrown a Champ Shark and it seemed to want to be a NASCAR disc ... (all left turns).



The Shark fits in perfectly as it is done with the same Ontario mold. The Champion Sharks were a huge aberration from the norm. This kind of stuff happens for reasons unknown. The Star are much more like normal Sharks. The DX Sharks usually only take a little wear to get them straight, if they don't start out that way.

The Star XD or Champion XD might also be a good bet for what you are looking for. I think Marshall Street might have some of those.



Champion XD :confused:?
Can�t find them at Marshall, how many was made?



No Champion. Star XDs at Marshall Street. Not sure how many total were made, but I would guess around 2000. Don't know how many Marshall Street got.

There were no Champion XDs produced. You can find the Star XD's here: http://www.marshallstreetdiscgolf.com/products.asp?cat=68&pg=2

Thanx! :)

The Champion Sharks were a huge aberration from the norm. This kind of stuff happens for reasons unknown.



Well, would the added stability have come from them resembling the stadium the Saints play their home games in (again) now?

(those w/aversion to bad jokes/puns need read no further)

You know...Super Domey?

/msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Dave, any chance of an Ontario Super Roc
that plastic is the bomb!!!

And now Dave the inevitable question (in my mind anyway) where does the MD-1 fit in? In...S....and D....plastic???

Peace
Scott

I'm throwing a MD-1 and it's sweet !!!!! Dx .

You can throw a slight turn and it will come out of it like a Shark / Roc does. Easy to grip and has a nice flight.

I'm throwing a 175 gram Yellow Disc. Try one and see if you have a place in your bag for one. Easy to adjust to.

Nice.................

Thanks ,

Donny O.

Dave, any chance of an Ontario Super Roc
that plastic is the bomb!!!



Maybe at some point.

And now Dave the inevitable question (in my mind anyway) where does the MD-1 fit in? In...S....and D....plastic???

Peace
Scott



The D plastic is like our DX and produces a slightly overstable disc that you can beat in. The S is like our Star and produces a disc that is not quite so overstable to start. The MD 1 flies and feels in between a Roc and Shark. It has the stability of a Roc, with the carry of a Shark. The profile is more like a Shark than a Roc. It is based on the Ontario Roc.

It is based on the Ontario Roc.



WHat did you change? Is the wing sharper or blunter? Is it tall (in profile) like a shark? Is it less or more stable than a rancho roc?

Perhaps kenny should have the Shark made in KC plastic for the 12x championships, seems like it would fit what people want in an ontario roc. Rocs in anything but dx and kc (with the exception of 01, 02 ce which is amazing) seem to be overstable discs that dont really compliment the other rocs.

Kenny does not throw Sharks.

then I guess you're just gonna hafta win this year schweb.

The Champion Sharks were a huge aberration from the norm. This kind of stuff happens for reasons unknown.



Well, would the added stability have come from them resembling the stadium the Saints play their home games in (again) now?

(those w/aversion to bad jokes/puns need read no further)

You know...Super Domey?

/msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif



:D

i think the real story is that Schweb had a hand in the crazy way in which Champion Sharks are so much more stable than their DX counterparts. rumor has it he was seen leaving the factory the first night they ran Champ. Sharks :eek:

It is based on the Ontario Roc.



WHat did you change? Is the wing sharper or blunter? Is it tall (in profile) like a shark? Is it less or more stable than a rancho roc?



It has the profile of a Shark, but is a little sharper and has about the same stability as a Rancho Roc.

Dave,
Any chance of GLOW Star Plastic?

I believe Dave said that since star plastic is usually opaque, it would require the use of a lot of glow additive and he didn't think it was feasible to maintain the proper plastic properties like density (or something like that).

I would be really happy with a New Star Whippet !!!!! :D

This morning I accidentally flipped my bag upside down and lo-and-behold... the bottom is beginning to wear through completely! Mind you, its been two years of discing with nothing but this bag, rain or shine, and I'm not complaining one bit about durability... but I need to know: WHEN ARE THOSE NEXT GEN BAGS COMIN' OUT?!

I needs me one!

This morning I accidentally flipped my bag upside down and lo-and-behold... the bottom is beginning to wear through completely! Mind you, its been two years of discing with nothing but this bag, rain or shine, and I'm not complaining one bit about durability... but I need to know: WHEN ARE THOSE NEXT GEN BAGS COMIN' OUT?!

I needs me one!



The new Tour bag with improved stitching and material is already available. The new Champion bag should be out soon. We were expecting it already.

Wouldn`t a star viking be a beautiful thing?

This morning I accidentally flipped my bag upside down and lo-and-behold... the bottom is beginning to wear through completely! Mind you, its been two years of discing with nothing but this bag, rain or shine, and I'm not complaining one bit about durability... but I need to know: WHEN ARE THOSE NEXT GEN BAGS COMIN' OUT?!

I needs me one!



The new Tour bag with improved stitching and material is already available. The new Champion bag should be out soon. We were expecting it already.

The Champion bag is what I've been expecting!

Does it still have the features originally mentioned in the prototype? The hard rubber bottom, the "stubs" at the bottom so it sits above the muck and mud slightly, the hard putter pocket, etc.? Because it looked absolutely and totally badass, if it still has all the features I want one as soon as they're released to the market.

Wouldn`t a star viking be a beautiful thing?



I would think so, but we don't have plans to run them at this type. Maybe a limited run to test.

I played a round today with a guy who was throwing the Champion Whippet with the circle stamp. This was the first one I had seen in person. What a sweet feeling disc. This disc was a twenty five foot longer Gator. I hate to jump on the Whippet band wagon but Dave you got to hook us up. I want a Whippet in Champion or Star plastic. Pretty Please?

Does it still have the features originally mentioned in the prototype? The hard rubber bottom, the "stubs" at the bottom so it sits above the muck and mud slightly, the hard putter pocket, etc.? Because it looked absolutely and totally badass, if it still has all the features I want one as soon as they're released to the market.



Yes, that's the one. It also has an internal frame.

Hey Dave

Everybody ask you questions about Innova Discs.

Not this time, I wish you and your Innova Crew have a great holidays.

Space Cadet

P.S. I have already asked Santa for Newest and Never released Innova OVERSTABLE Midrange discs ;)

i call that disc the champion/star gator.
happy holidays.

Thanks everyone for a great year in disc golf. Happy holidays. Have a healthy, happy new year. Many aces and deuces to you all.

Same to you Dave!!
Thanx for taking your time answering all questions!!
I am convinced that 2007 will be another great year for the discgolf community!!

Merry Christmas Dave!!!

Thanks for all your great work.

Happy Festivus!!!

Ditto. Wishing you a great 2007!

Hey Dave,

Nothing specific about a disc, but I was just wondering if there are plans for more mid-range discs to be released in 2007. I dont mean current ones in Star plastic, but brand new designs. I have experimented with practically every mid-range disc on the market but none satisfy me. The one's I use most are the Gator and Buzzz (I know Discraft) and while I love them they both have their flaws. The Gator can be a bit too stable and the Buzzz seems to turn over a little too easily. And yes, I've tried the Roc on several occasions and I just cant throw it. I am also limited on mid-range discs because of my long fingers so the thin lip discs are near impossible to control for me. Thats why I use the Gator. It may be over-stable but its one of the very few that fits comfortably in my hand. So please tell me you'll be releasing brand new midranges. It's the weakest part of my game and really hurts my scores. I need something stable, but can be turned over and still fades back. Also, it needs to hold a line into a headwind, and have a thick lip rim.

Thanks Dave for making Great Discs and answering all of our mullet questions.

Hey Dave,

Nothing specific about a disc, but I was just wondering if there are plans for more mid-range discs to be released in 2007. I dont mean current ones in Star plastic, but brand new designs. I have experimented with practically every mid-range disc on the market but none satisfy me. The one's I use most are the Gator and Buzzz (I know Discraft) and while I love them they both have their flaws. The Gator can be a bit too stable and the Buzzz seems to turn over a little too easily. And yes, I've tried the Roc on several occasions and I just cant throw it. I am also limited on mid-range discs because of my long fingers so the thin lip discs are near impossible to control for me. Thats why I use the Gator. It may be over-stable but its one of the very few that fits comfortably in my hand. So please tell me you'll be releasing brand new midranges. It's the weakest part of my game and really hurts my scores. I need something stable, but can be turned over and still fades back. Also, it needs to hold a line into a headwind, and have a thick lip rim.



Sounds like you need a BB Aviar that you can throw 300 ft. Also, possibly a Gremlin aka Sniper. We are in the process of making a mid range for release in the Spring. It could be exactly what you are looking for. It's still a long way from being a reality though.

Hey there,

Always excited to see a new disc on the market. Although, I'm trying not to add too many discs to my bag unless they fill a need that I am missing.

My question is regarding the Tee-Rex and the new Max. When I look at the descriptions on the website they look pretty much the same: overstable, good in windy situations, good for sidearm throwers, fast, & good for advanced/int. throwers. .

If I am happy with the performance of the Tee-Rex, is there a place for the Max in my bag? What differences does the Max offer...what need does it fill that the Tee-Rex, doesn't?

Before I go out and buy a Max, I wan't to have an idea of how it is different that the Tee-Rex in a substantial way, that would justify the purchase.

Right now I use the Tee-Rex for big hyzer drives, or drives into a headwind...kind of my Wraith substitute in wind.

Any help would be much appreciated. This Christmas I got about $150 to spend on disc golf...just want to spend it wisely on discs that I really plan on throwing (many back-ups).

Max will handle higher (head)winds...is more overstable.
.02

If I am happy with the performance of the Tee-Rex, is there a place for the Max in my bag? What differences does the Max offer...what need does it fill that the Tee-Rex, doesn't?
Right now I use the Tee-Rex for big hyzer drives, or drives into a headwind...kind of my Wraith substitute in wind.

Any help would be much appreciated. This Christmas I got about $150 to spend on disc golf...just want to spend it wisely on discs that I really plan on throwing (many back-ups).



I use the Max in situations that I might have used the Firebird in the past, but when would like more glide. I too use the TeeRex basically as a windy-conditions Wraith.

For my arm strength I see the Max as being much more overstable than the TeeRex. The flight chart doesn't show that much difference between them, but they are very different discs.

Circle 2 and Matt are correct. For me, I can sometimes overpower a TeeRex in some situations like flex shots into a wind. I can't overpower a Max in any situation. It a matter of degree. It's like the difference between a TeeBird and a Firebird.

what discs are good for new players. :confused:

For new players I would say go with a Lepoard, Sidewinder, or a Roadrunner. I you seem to turn these over to much even though you are new then move up to a Beast or a Valkirie.

JHBLADER--try a champ or star spider, heavy. feels like a gator, but not as overstable. i use gators and spiders for putting and midrange. good luck

I throw a first run Champ Gator and it seems to be more stable than the newer runs that have came out. They still are stable but I was wondering about the Star I bought one havent thrown it yet but is it going to be as stable as my 1st run? I just looked and there is no bead on the Star Gator like the other ones why is this? Will this affect the stability of it?

Are star teebirds made in both the "T" and the "TL" mold?

Yes. Though I have not seen the TL's lately that could because of the printing schedule that they have.

Murph,
Innova carries in production the Star Teebird and the Star TL.

-Scott Lewis

what discs are good for new players. :confused:



Two of the best we have are the Goblin and Skeeter. I would also recommend an Aero. All are easier to throw straight for beginners and can be used for drives, approaches, and putts. The Skeeter and Goblin are similar. The Skeeter has more range. Alternatively, you can try much lighter DX weights <150 gms. in some of the other discs mentioned.

Dave, I have 2 questions.
First, I just got a new 12X Aviar, and it is nothing like the KC Aviars of the past. It is slower, less stable, and very domey, is this the way they all are or is this one fluke? It reminds me of a First Run Pro Aviar, only in KC plastic.

Second, after throwing this 12X I went searching for some 11x's that I love and cherish, and I found a KC Aviar with no writing about Ken Climo on the ring, so not an 11x or 12x, and on the back it just says "innova champion discs, inc. www.innovadiscs.com (http://www.innovadiscs.com)"...does not say san marino, like the older ones i have or the 12x, is this a special disc or run?

Thanks,
Matt

Dave, I have 2 questions.
First, I just got a new 12X Aviar, and it is nothing like the KC Aviars of the past. It is slower, less stable, and very domey, is this the way they all are or is this one fluke? It reminds me of a First Run Pro Aviar, only in KC plastic.

Second, after throwing this 12X I went searching for some 11x's that I love and cherish, and I found a KC Aviar with no writing about Ken Climo on the ring, so not an 11x or 12x, and on the back it just says "innova champion discs, inc. www.innovadiscs.com (http://www.innovadiscs.com)"...does not say san marino, like the older ones i have or the 12x, is this a special disc or run?

Thanks,
Matt



This run is all like what you describe. The one you have that says no run is basically a version of an 11X. We have duplicate parts for discs. The newer part has www...

Was there any info posted on the December CFR raffle?

what discs are good for new players. :confused:



We build our own sets that consist of:

Star: Leopard, Coyote, Aviar.
Ch: Roadrunner, Coyote, Q-Omega
Pro: Leopard, Cobra, Omega
DX: Leopard, Coyote, Aviar.

Leopards in any plastic make great beginner discs, same with the Coyote. Aviars are our best selling putter.

That DX (leopard, coyote, aviar) set looks ideal to me, That would be three discs I would recommend to beginners. The new, soft and durable dx plastic would be perfect.

Is there any chance of a KC pro type plastic driver like the leopard(or even cheetah). I know that you can't make the high speed drivers in the plastic because of how hard it is but the leopard and cheetah are the same speed as the whippet. I absolutely love the rigidity and feel of the KC whippet plastic for wooded fairways with a left turn but would like to have a complimentary disc for straight or slight right turn in a fairway.

I absolutely love the rigidity and feel of the KC whippet plastic for wooded fairways with a left turn but would like to have a complimentary disc for straight or slight right turn in a fairway.


What you're referring to has been in existence as long as KC discs have been made, it's called the KC Pro Forehand. You should check it out. :D

Was there any info posted on the December CFR raffle?



I have no info at this time. Sorry.

Is there any chance of a KC pro type plastic driver like the leopard(or even cheetah). I know that you can't make the high speed drivers in the plastic because of how hard it is but the leopard and cheetah are the same speed as the whippet. I absolutely love the rigidity and feel of the KC whippet plastic for wooded fairways with a left turn but would like to have a complimentary disc for straight or slight right turn in a fairway.



That material is very difficult to mold, so we don't want to expand the discs we make it in.

I noticed recently that you guys released a Champion Plastic Max and the Wraith X as CFR discs for some of the SoCal tournaments. What are the chances of us out here in Lexington getting rare discs like those to be available for the Lexington Open as a CFR.
We'd love to have something to use as a fund raiser thats rare and unique.
Other than the usual generic pick of CFR discs.

hey dave--how would you compare a kc pro whippet to a ch. gator?

Hey Dave,

Nothing specific about a disc, but I was just wondering if there are plans for more mid-range discs to be released in 2007. I dont mean current ones in Star plastic, but brand new designs. I have experimented with practically every mid-range disc on the market but none satisfy me. The one's I use most are the Gator and Buzzz (I know Discraft) and while I love them they both have their flaws. The Gator can be a bit too stable and the Buzzz seems to turn over a little too easily. And yes, I've tried the Roc on several occasions and I just cant throw it. I am also limited on mid-range discs because of my long fingers so the thin lip discs are near impossible to control for me. Thats why I use the Gator. It may be over-stable but its one of the very few that fits comfortably in my hand. So please tell me you'll be releasing brand new midranges. It's the weakest part of my game and really hurts my scores. I need something stable, but can be turned over and still fades back. Also, it needs to hold a line into a headwind, and have a thick lip rim.



Sounds like you need a BB Aviar that you can throw 300 ft. Also, possibly a Gremlin aka Sniper. We are in the process of making a mid range for release in the Spring. It could be exactly what you are looking for. It's still a long way from being a reality though.



I already throw a 4X JK Pro Aviar X, but its usually my main putter. I can sorta use it as a midrange between 250-275 ft if its a short hole. So, should I try the KC Pro Aviar as its stiffer? Maybe even the Star Aviar Driver?

About the Gremlin, I know its OOP so do i just have to order one on like eBay or is Innova re-releasing it?

I noticed recently that you guys released a Champion Plastic Max and the Wraith X as CFR discs for some of the SoCal tournaments. What are the chances of us out here in Lexington getting rare discs like those to be available for the Lexington Open as a CFR.
We'd love to have something to use as a fund raiser thats rare and unique.
Other than the usual generic pick of CFR discs.



Those were limited test runs and Golden State and Masters do get some limited stuff as they are majors in my local area. That being said, I am thinking about putting a special TeeRex or two into the CFR program.

hey dave--how would you compare a kc pro whippet to a ch. gator?



The Whippet is faster and dives a little harder on the low speed.

So, should I try the KC Pro Aviar as its stiffer? Maybe even the Star Aviar Driver?

About the Gremlin, I know its OOP so do i just have to order one on like eBay or is Innova re-releasing it?



I don't know if you would get that much more range with a KC compared to a JK, but if you have trouble throwing the softer stuff hard, you might.

We will be running Gremlins/Snipers from time to time as a limited run.

Any chance that one of those limited runs of Gremlins/Snipers would be in Champion plastic?

Is the 11X KC Pro Whippet the same mold as the Champion Whippet X ?

Thanks Dave for your time and dedication!!

Dave,
Just curious as to which disc we may find in our players package for the Norcal/Socal water bucket dispute? Any chance you can "leak" some information? KL