Or do what someone suggested earlier. Sell them as a limited run fundraising disc and donate the money to Edge or another charity.

X-out fly a mile Boss's for $15 to $20 ea.. I'll take a dozen right now.



I think we are going to do something like that. The Masters tournament will have some prereleases. Possibly some of the X-outs will be made available too if there is any interest. SoCal has already expressed an interest.



Oh great, So I can buy one off Ebay for $50 from someone that lives in California.

How about offering them to retailers? <font color="red"> </font>



We will if we can make them look good. Otherwise, probably not. I'm not ruling it out, if we can identify them as "bad", but my first choice is to make them look good.

As you may remember i love Pro Orcs... Recently a friend had me throw his new Star Beast and the thing outflew my Pro Orc and had a very similar flight. (newer one from the more durable run of Pro Orcs)... Is that an anomaly or is that one of the reasons you kept the Pro Beast but discontinued the Pro Orc? I used to throw the old Beast -- did it get re-tooled?

I am finding my Destroyer is the bomb for headwind and long hyzer all the way shots, but still love Pro Orcs for max. D hyzer flips...



Yes, the Beast did get retooled and that was one reason why we discontinued the Pro Orc. The other was the fragility of the Orc structure. We have since upgraded the Pro material so it is possible that the Orc mold might be used again with a Pro type material.

Yes, the Beast did get retooled and that was one reason why we discontinued the Pro Orc. The other was the fragility of the Orc structure. We have since upgraded the Pro material so it is possible that the Orc mold might be used again with a Pro type material.



:eek: :D :D:cool: :D:D :eek:

i need some that are blue ;)

Yes, the Beast did get retooled and that was one reason why we discontinued the Pro Orc. The other was the fragility of the Orc structure. We have since upgraded the Pro material so it is possible that the Orc mold might be used again with a Pro type material.



:eek: :D :D:cool: :D:D :eek:

i need some that are blue ;)



I always liked the blues ones as well...and when they went out of production. I switched to blue pro Beasts.(still get a few of the old style in every once in a while.)

As you may remember i love Pro Orcs... Recently a friend had me throw his new Star Beast and the thing outflew my Pro Orc and had a very similar flight. (newer one from the more durable run of Pro Orcs)... Is that an anomaly or is that one of the reasons you kept the Pro Beast but discontinued the Pro Orc? I used to throw the old Beast -- did it get re-tooled?

I am finding my Destroyer is the bomb for headwind and long hyzer all the way shots, but still love Pro Orcs for max. D hyzer flips...



Yes, the Beast did get retooled and that was one reason why we discontinued the Pro Orc. The other was the fragility of the Orc structure. We have since upgraded the Pro material so it is possible that the Orc mold might be used again with a Pro type material.



This makes sense...I got a pro cobra when they came out and used it for one round @ a wooded course and it looked like it got hit by a lawnmower (I wasn't real accurate yet). After that I tried a few other discs in pro (TL, SL) and I was still unsatisfied with the durability despite the glide. I have been throwing pro Destroyers now for 6 months and I am quite pleased with their durability. They feel very solid in the rim (even more than star), and as long as I don't crack anything off the tee, they do not noticibly lose stability hit to hit. Durable pro plastic is a great thing, keep it up!

How about the Boss in pro?

[QUOTE]
We have since upgraded the Pro material so it is possible that the Orc mold might be used again with a Pro type material.



The Pro Orc is my favorite driver....... blue, red, white, yellow, i dont care, just bring them back! Thanks Dave

Dave,

The first batch of CFR Champion Destroyers that came out were super flat and flew great. I throw for distance using a hyzerflip technique and those babies turn over slightly and just plain out bomb. Some of the newer runs that I've been throwing have a lot more dome and are super over-stable. I know that you've answered this type of question in previous posts. My concern is about the production run if/when it comes out. Will it be flat or domey?

Also, could you give me insight on why a First Run Big Star Teerex flies totally different than a production run Star Teerex? Is it just me? I've gobbled up about 40 of the First Runs because I can throw them a lot further. Thanks for any info.

Dave,

One more thing. What is the difference between a Champion Wraith X and a production run Champion Wraith?

can this wider rim tech be used / beneficial in a TeeBird type disc...striaght, fairway, good glide, accurate? or is the wider rim only distance worthy.



It is much more difficult to get a straight glider from a wide rim, than speed. Speed is easy. We could make a future model that is faster than the Boss, but I don't think we will.



If you're probably not going to produce faster discs, what's the next area of disc design you'd like to work on?

Dave I'm curious to know about the Special Edition Gazelle. I've got a few of these stashed away and have never heard anything about run numbers of if it ever made it into regular production.
Any help here would be great and as always THANKS for taking the time to always satisfy us discheads.

Here's a bit of info

http://www.discgolfsweden.se/discar/discar_sokdisc_eng.aspx?DiscId=2178

Dave,

The first batch of CFR Champion Destroyers that came out were super flat and flew great. I throw for distance using a hyzerflip technique and those babies turn over slightly and just plain out bomb. Some of the newer runs that I've been throwing have a lot more dome and are super over-stable. I know that you've answered this type of question in previous posts. My concern is about the production run if/when it comes out. Will it be flat or domey?

Also, could you give me insight on why a First Run Big Star Teerex flies totally different than a production run Star Teerex? Is it just me? I've gobbled up about 40 of the First Runs because I can throw them a lot further. Thanks for any info.



I've been around long enough to take on your question...First of all plastic disc manufacturing, on any scale, produces variations that are unavoidable. Rarely are any of these intentioal, and it actually works out in the players' favor b/c you can find a range of stabilities with about every disc. Production Destroyers will be ran again and again. If there is a trend one way or another that is outside of what Dave thinks is proper, adjustments will be made. Even so, there will be domey and flat, stiff and soft, and everything in between. Disc golfers are very individualistic and there are groups of players that only buy stiff, gummy, flat, domey, etc.

Teerexes and Wraiths have been retooled several times to fit into Dave's vision of what their respective roles should be.

Dave,

One more thing. What is the difference between a Champion Wraith X and a production run Champion Wraith?



Discspeeds answers are pretty good. We can partially control the dome and stability of the wide rimmed discs, but there still is an element of uncertainty. Of late we are tending to make the Champion versions slightly more overstable than the Star versions. The Pro versions are not particularly controllable. They do what they want except they consistently have a higher dome.

The Wraith X was a more overstable version of the Wraith that doesn't exist anymore. The TeeRex was retooled three times. The original run was correct, but when we used a duplicate piece, (which turned out to not be a duplicate), we retooled. That didn't work satisfactorily so we made a whole new part, then another that was finally satisfactory before we found out that the original was fine.

Dave I'm curious to know about the Special Edition Gazelle. I've got a few of these stashed away and have never heard anything about run numbers of if it ever made it into regular production.
Any help here would be great and as always THANKS for taking the time to always satisfy us discheads.



The Special Edition Gazelle was a precursor to the KC Pro series. I don't remember the disc other than we ran it. I think it was a Pro type of material, but I am not sure. I don't think we ran more than 2000-4000, but again, I am not sure.

can this wider rim tech be used / beneficial in a TeeBird type disc...striaght, fairway, good glide, accurate? or is the wider rim only distance worthy.



It is much more difficult to get a straight glider from a wide rim, than speed. Speed is easy. We could make a future model that is faster than the Boss, but I don't think we will.



If you're probably not going to produce faster discs, what's the next area of disc design you'd like to work on?



Long turning discs are next. Again, it's easy to make a long disc turn, but not easy to make it turn reliably and consistently.

Dave

Is there any chance of the mini driver coming back in DX plastic? Since I have limited disc golf access and time in my area, mini golf has become my crutch. I love the new star mini drivers, they are long and overstable and great for mini thumbers, but the DX mini driver is the greatest putter in the mini market.- I have only one and I would like more. Is there a future for DX mini drivers? Is there any plans to create new minis? Everyone I introduce to mini golf loves it. Jason

Dave

Is there any chance of the mini driver coming back in DX plastic? Since I have limited disc golf access and time in my area, mini golf has become my crutch. I love the new star mini drivers, they are long and overstable and great for mini thumbers, but the DX mini driver is the greatest putter in the mini market.- I have only one and I would like more. Is there a future for DX mini drivers? Is there any plans to create new minis? Everyone I introduce to mini golf loves it. Jason



We are making DX minis now in a heavy Aviar type. We will make mini drivers in the future.

Ok Dave, and readers. i take back what i said about Xc's. I now see why there is need for a fast more overstable version disc. I just played a 2 day tourny and the Star XC turned over for me and cost me strokes...it was so windy my max was having trouble. a champ XC stayed real stable in a head wind and I would like to see a boss. I want to be ready next time a windy tourny comes to town. Something reliable into a strong (20mph+) head wind i can chunk 350+..

Dave, i just saw some new Aviar Driver's. (Big Bead) are these big bead aviar's. ive heard so much of these from old school players. they seem to be an amazing putter. i have not heard much hype, seems to be a silent release? and are these here to stay , or are they a limited thing? i bought 2, i hope they take the place of my putter..

Ok Dave, and readers. i take back what i said about Xc's. I now see why there is need for a fast more overstable version disc. I just played a 2 day tourny and the Star XC turned over for me and cost me strokes...it was so windy my max was having trouble. a champ XC stayed real stable in a head wind and I would like to see a boss. I want to be ready next time a windy tourny comes to town. Something reliable into a strong (20mph+) head wind i can chunk 350+..


Its called a firebird. :)

Dave, i just saw some new Aviar Driver's. (Big Bead) are these big bead aviar's. ive heard so much of these from old school players. they seem to be an amazing putter. i have not heard much hype, seems to be a silent release? and are these here to stay , or are they a limited thing? i bought 2, i hope they take the place of my putter..



They are a regular offering. They come in DX, KC Pro, JK Pro, Star and Champion. The DX is only available for custom hot stamping.

Dave,

I changed putters and have started putting with the 12x KC Pro Big Beads. The first few I bought felt great, almost like a grippy DX. The last couple that I bought are real slick feeling and even look different. Are there 2 different runs? They seem to be 2 totally different discs.

I guess this has already been answered. I guess when dealing with molds and plastics some things are just out of your control. This is not meant to be hateful, but I feel like I better hold on to every good flyer that I find. It seems like everytime I have faith in something and I buy a few more to keep around they fly different.

Dave, I just started throwing a CFR Champ. Viper. It HAS to be the most stable disc ever made, including the whippet. Why is it only regularly produced in DX? Why do you think the Whippet is a cult favorite over the Viper?

Dave, I just started throwing a CFR Champ. Viper. It HAS to be the most stable disc ever made, including the whippet. Why is it only regularly produced in DX? Why do you think the Whippet is a cult favorite over the Viper?



The Viper is still a good seller in DX. It doesn't sell well in Champion as it doesn't serve the wide market demographic. The Viper used to be state of the art, but was supplanted by the smaller diameter discs like the Whippet. I believe the diameter is the difference in appeal. The Ram has a following too in this same over stable niche. It too is a larger diameter disc, which only seems to appeal to the players that have been around for a while.

Found this on Ebay:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Innova-Boss-Disc-Gol...id=p3286.c0.m14 (http://cgi.ebay.com/Innova-Boss-Disc-Golf-Disc-175g_W0QQitemZ320298840328QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item 320298840328&amp;_trkparms=39%3A1%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A1%7C 240%3A1318&amp;_trksid=p3286.c0.m14)

Found this on Ebay:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Innova-Boss-Disc-Gol...id=p3286.c0.m14 (http://cgi.ebay.com/Innova-Boss-Disc-Golf-Disc-175g_W0QQitemZ320298840328QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item 320298840328&amp;_trkparms=39%3A1%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A1%7C 240%3A1318&amp;_trksid=p3286.c0.m14)


You sure did!

Wrong forum maybe! :p

thanks captain obvious! but i have tried that, and it seems some of the new champion are not Firebird FX becuase i flip them, especially in wind... i need more like a whippet, but longer range

ok Dave? what would the closest stability rating to a Firebird CE FX... meaning are champ firebirds presently FX molds, or are monster closer? im having a problem finding a champion mold overstable disc. monsters get flippy, and champ firebirds dont seem to be FX. with out buying pricey CE FX what is my closest disc?

i tell you what! go get a big bead aviar driver DX, them are awesome, grippy, great flying putters, very true, very diff from the KC, i cant stand the KC plastic for a putter, but the DX BB is sweet....

Dave, how do we get Ram's. are you going to make any, and, or is anyone selling them?

The current Champion Firebirds are FX.
Rams are not currently in production.

Perhaps you should hone your speed vs. snap ratio.

All champ FB are FX unless its a cfr FL.

Unless its super SUPER beat, I think you need to look at the indian and not the arrow.

I live in Oklahoma and I've never met a wind that will flip a FB. I avg about 390-400 with Teebirds, fyi

Actually go buy a stiff dx viper and gazelle and play the wind with those. That's one of the best ways to work on your wind game

Actually the new champion firebirds are kind of gummy and they aren't what you would call over stable. The stablity reminds me of the old monster-l mold

monsters and teerex's have been good to in the wind.

Dave,

Word on the street is that you guys have made some CFR Max's. How do they fly in relation to the Star Max? Is it safe to assume that they are a little more over-stable?

The current Champion Firebirds are FX.
Rams are not currently in production.

Perhaps you should hone your speed vs. snap ratio.



Ditto that. A lot of "flippiness" comes from technique where you're not putting enough spin on the disc. I throw mostly light plastic (150-160g drivers), very often into headwinds, without flipping them. The reason that they don't flip is because I have developend a delivery that imparts lots of spin on the disc. Lots of times it's not the disc, it's the thrower that needs changing (no offense intended). Thing is, most players find it easier to change discs than to change their form. That's what keeps Dave in business...

Dave,

Word on the street is that you guys have made some CFR Max's. How do they fly in relation to the Star Max? Is it safe to assume that they are a little more over-stable?



Most of the Champion long range drivers have been molding slightly more high speed stable than the Stars of the same mold. I can't say anything specific about the Champion Max's, because I don't know, but I think it is a good assumption.

Thanks. I have 2 on the way and can't wait to try them out. I'd much rather have Champion over Star in anything.

Dave,

Word on the street is that you guys have made some CFR Max's. How do they fly in relation to the Star Max? Is it safe to assume that they are a little more over-stable?



discgolfvalues.com is currently selling some champion (CFR) max's, matterafact!

Riz is right. If you are flipping an overstable disc, I bet you are also "breaking" your wrist at the instant of release.

i do it sometimes because i over rotate on the ball of my front foot and heel of the other.

We have been molding and testing the Boss for a while now and it appears there are variations in the run that range from Destroyer type to XCaliber type. The XCaliber type seem to be domier than the Destroyer type.

I vote for the Destroyer type.

Dave,

I heard that you guys might start running Vikings in the Star plastic. Is there any truth to that?

I vote for the Destroyer type.

Dave,

I heard that you guys might start running Vikings in the Star plastic. Is there any truth to that?



We have no plans to run the Star Viking at this time.

Dave,

I remember you saying there are "good" and "bad" vikings. I can't find the post, so how can you tell them apart? Thanks

Dave,

I remember you saying there are "good" and "bad" vikings. I can't find the post, so how can you tell them apart? Thanks



Originally, the ones with the "record grooves" on top were the good ones. We haven't made bad ones for a while, but if they are still out there, they would be almost impossible to tell from the good ones other than by throwing. The good ones are much more high speed stable.

If you're probably not going to produce faster discs, what's the next area of disc design you'd like to work on?



Long turning discs are next. Again, it's easy to make a long disc turn, but not easy to make it turn reliably and consistently.



I think you achieved this nicely with the Monarch - super long, slow turns that are easy to control. I assume this is achieved with the underside groove - can you explain how it works? Also, will a similar groove be present in any upcoming discs?

[quote

I think you achieved this nicely with the Monarch - super long, slow turns that are easy to control. I assume this is achieved with the underside groove - can you explain how it works? Also, will a similar groove be present in any upcoming discs?

[/QUOTE]

We are working on several other models that are trying to achieve a similar performance. I am still learning how it works exactly, but one thing is straightforward. It takes weight out of the rim.

thanks guys. i will analyze my release and wrist. i hope i can solve the issue. i will keep using firbirds and see what i can do. again thanks, im always in the mood for learning...

My last Champ Firebird was just a little more stable than a Champ Teebird with some nice glide... but not a firebird :(
A nice compliment to a firebird however... I guess i will keep throwing my Discmania PD for Firbird type shots as the one I bought is that stable.

ce

My last Champ Firebird was just a little more stable than a Champ Teebird with some nice glide... but not a firebird :(
A nice compliment to a firebird however... I guess i will keep throwing my Discmania PD for Firbird type shots as the one I bought is that stable.

ce



The Discmania PD is what I use in place of a Firebird and TeeBird for my game. It works for both my sidearm and back hand. The Firebird tended to be a little over stable and the TeeBird a little understable.

Dave, I am curious to know if you can tell the different "types" of BOSS via visual inspection, or weight. If there is a physical difference, market both under different badging. I would like something that would increase my distance besides all the practice and core training I am already doing, and I can see the use in a faster longer overstable driver too. Why not? KP

Dave, I am curious to know if you can tell the different "types" of BOSS via visual inspection, or weight. If there is a physical difference, market both under different badging. I would like something that would increase my distance besides all the practice and core training I am already doing, and I can see the use in a faster longer overstable driver too. Why not? KP



I agree and we might be able to make that distinction in time. We have a new material coming in a month or so that should make the longer Destroyer like Boss consistently. But, for now we have a mix. The domier Boss seems to be the more high speed stable kind, and the flatter seems to have more of a turn. So far, I haven't seen, or heard of, a deviation from this pattern, but I have only tested a few dozen in the field.

what is the new material?

Dave, the Boss pre-release discs for U.S. Masters and the SoCal Champions are limited batches of 100 each. Are there noted differences in these runs, i.e. more destroyer like vs. Xcal like? I would also like to say thanks for taking the time to answer the forums questions.

Saw a Boss flip over like nothing last night.

what is the new material?



Different company. Same basic material. Makes a difference.

Dave, the Boss pre-release discs for U.S. Masters and the SoCal Champions are limited batches of 100 each. Are there noted differences in these runs, i.e. more destroyer like vs. Xcal like? I would also like to say thanks for taking the time to answer the forums questions.



There are differences, but I don't know which discs are in which runs. The most stable discs I have tested were what we call Merlot color. It's a dark reddish purple. These were somewhat poppy top too. The least stable were flattish dome blue.

When you say flattish dome blue does that include the light blue ones?

So these batches were of the same run and stamped with different stamps and the color/material imbues those qualities? What about the orange (my favorite color)?

So these batches were of the same run and stamped with different stamps and the color/material imbues those qualities? What about the orange (my favorite color)?



I don't know exactly what is changing, but it doesn't have to be much when there is so much plastic in the rim. I mentioned the colors only because that is what I saw. I couldn't guarantee anyone else gets the same result based on color. However, the dome (or lack of) does seem to be a fairly consistent determinant of stability.

Are you going to be able to make a disc that is fast and overstable like the XCaliber but more consistent using the Monarch style "gouge" in order to get plastic out of the rim and onto the flight plate???

Or is that not the goal?

What will discs 20 years from now look like? If anyone would have a clue you would Dave.

You get people throwing over 800 feet consistently and that has military applications... :p

Are you going to be able to make a disc that is fast and overstable like the XCaliber but more consistent using the Monarch style "gouge" in order to get plastic out of the rim and onto the flight plate???

Or is that not the goal?




We can already make a disc fast and overstable like the XCaliber using Monarch tech, but that is not the goal. The goal is to make super long flying discs that non gorillas can throw.




What will discs 20 years from now look like? If anyone would have a clue you would Dave.






If you would have asked me this 20 years ago, I could have told you. Now, I can only see a year or so into the future, and I want to keep that to myself, for now.

We can already make a disc fast and overstable like the XCaliber using Monarch tech, but that is not the goal. The goal is to make super long flying discs that non gorillas can throw.

[QUOTE]


Awwww come, on what about for us gorillas? We like new toys too! Its not my fault my dad made me hang from the monkey bars for extended periods.

We non-gorillas of the world thank you!

So these batches were of the same run and stamped with different stamps and the color/material imbues those qualities? What about the orange (my favorite color)?



I don't know about the orange yet, but I did retest the Merlot today and it was stable again.

So these batches were of the same run and stamped with different stamps and the color/material imbues those qualities? What about the orange (my favorite color)?



I don't know about the orange yet, but I did retest the Merlot today and it was stable again.



Dave I know you know of what you speak, and you ARE from California, but I think you'd find a 16% alcohol Zinfandel to have far superior stability and much longer legs. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif ;) :D

Dave,

Does the Ontario Cobra mold still exist? If so, any chance it would ever be run again (CFR maybe)?

Also, what mold was the CFR Star Cobra that was produced a year or two ago? Would it be similar at all to a Champion Ontario Cobra?

I bought a used Champ Ont Cobra a few years ago and forgot all about it until about 3 months ago. I'm an avid Roc thrower (regular Rancho and "Ching" molds) and I found that a slightly used Champion Ontario Cobra has a very slow/gradual, late turn that I can't seem to find in any other premium-grade midrange.

Thanks!!

Dave,

Does the Ontario Cobra mold still exist? If so, any chance it would ever be run again (CFR maybe)?

Also, what mold was the CFR Star Cobra that was produced a year or two ago? Would it be similar at all to a Champion Ontario Cobra?

I bought a used Champ Ont Cobra a few years ago and forgot all about it until about 3 months ago. I'm an avid Roc thrower (regular Rancho and "Ching" molds) and I found that a slightly used Champion Ontario Cobra has a very slow/gradual, late turn that I can't seem to find in any other premium-grade midrange.

Thanks!!



Yes, the Ontario Cobra mold still does exist and is in perfect working order. We might make some Ontarios for CFR if we think there is a significant need.

I believe the last Star Cobras were San Marino, but I am not sure. We did run Champion in the San Marino.

what is the deal with the new BOSS that is coming out? what are it's flight characteristics?

I also had a cool idea for a name of a disc, maybe the CROSSBOW it could also be an opportunity to do a cool design for a stamp on the disc as well

what is the deal with the new BOSS that is coming out? what are it's flight characteristics?



It is a faster version of a Destroyer. The exact flight characteristic is eluding us at present but we will keep testing and molding. So far the range of stability is from XCaliber stable to RR unstable. The range of distance is from long to way long.

how does the same disc with the same mold un-beat-in fly differently than one of the same besides the direction of wind? I want one that is like a wraith, should I get a certain color one when they come out?

how does the same disc with the same mold un-beat-in fly differently than one of the same besides the direction of wind? I want one that is like a wraith, should I get a certain color one when they come out?



Unfortunately, it's not as easy as choosing a color. It is probably a better bet to go with the way the disc looks. The domier Bosses have been the more stable and the flatter discs have been the less stable discs. This is not true of narrower rimmed discs. The opposite is more often true. We first noticed this phenomenon with some of the Valkyries, but it didn't happen very often. From the Wraiths to the Destroyers, and now to the Bosses, it seems to be more of the rule.

i received two of the merlot color bosses on thursday and one is slightly less stable than an xcal and the other is less stable than a destoyer. however, for the flippyer one, it BOMBS as a roller.

cool! thanks!

Dave,
Was the keeper to x-out ratio really high? Is this a mold that will be very cost effective? It sounds like there have been a bunch of problems with the molding of it. Would it mold better in star or Pro plastic?

Dave,
Was the keeper to x-out ratio really high? Is this a mold that will be very cost effective? It sounds like there have been a bunch of problems with the molding of it. Would it mold better in star or Pro plastic?



So far, the reject rate has been very high. It runs like it's waling on a tight rope. Very touchy. It may run better in Pro and Star. I hope so.

or maybe you have finally reached, or gone beyond, a practical rim width. if you are getting some as [over]stable as an xcal, and some that are as under stable as a RR, then it seems that trying to market this disc will be problematic, and you will have to deal with a bunch of folks complaining that the disc did not do what they thought it would. good luck.

would you consider making some molds in a 'deluxe candy' plastic and stamping them with the old CE 'Champion Edition" hotstamps just to add to the mystique and desirability?

how about for a top tier CFR like the USDGC -- you wouldn't have to just raise funds from Rocs ;)

I'm requesting Orcs and Destroyers :p

or maybe you have finally reached, or gone beyond, a practical rim width. if you are getting some as [over]stable as an xcal, and some that are as under stable as a RR, then it seems that trying to market this disc will be problematic, and you will have to deal with a bunch of folks complaining that the disc did not do what they thought it would. good luck.



The Boss is as wide as they are allowed by the new PDGA specs I believe...It is going to be overstable or touchy simply because as discs get faster, the "sweet" spot between cruising speed and turnover speed where the disc just glides straight gets smaller and smaller. For example, lets say a Teebird glides straight between the speeds of 25mph and 60mph. Slower than 25 and it is fading, faster than 60 and it is turning. Spin and release technique make a difference, but there would be relative parameters with each individual that would be comparable. Now a Destroyer probably is only "cruising" between the speeds of 35 mph and 50 mph, past which it is turning fast. The Boss I imagine has an even smaller window.

The secret I guess is getting a fast disc to hold its cruising speed for the longest time possible.

Max allowable rim width is now 2.6cm and the Boss is at 2.5cm.

how wide are you guys gonna go? seriously.



I would imagine as wide as they can make them. Dave said it's a big boy disc. So while it may be out there for the general public, probably less than 10% of the disc golfing public has any business with that disc in their bag.



Yes, this is as wide as it will get. And yes, much less than 10% of the disc golfing public could use this disc to much advantage. However, Dave F. and Avery J. will probably like it. I like it in the wind myself.

So Dave is there an ETA on when we can expect to see the boss out in STAR plastic? Also when they are first released are the star bosses going to have the big star stamp on them because i think that is a great stamp to start with and always is a hot seller when first released.

So Dave is there an ETA on when we can expect to see the boss out in STAR plastic? Also when they are first released are the star bosses going to have the big star stamp on them because i think that is a great stamp to start with and always is a hot seller when first released.



We are not scheduled to run Star for a couple of months. Release will be a few weeks after that. We did run some amount for a fun raising project as a test. We will probably have the Star Star stamped for the initial run.

So you are looking probably around the beginning of the year before they are released for sale? And you say you released some for a fund raiser are those available for purchase because I cant grip champion as well as i can star and really want to see what kind of potential the star has after throwing the champion this weekend and loving the distance it gets.

Dave, I know this came up a while back, but i dont recall ever seeing a yes, no, or maybe so answer, figured i would bring it back up. Will the Pig be ran in any other plastic than the soft pro? Love the disc and have two in the bag already, but they seem to beat up a little fast. I like how stable they are when new. Will we see some in Champ and Star in the near future? Thanks

Ryan

So you are looking probably around the beginning of the year before they are released for sale? And you say you released some for a fund raiser are those available for purchase because I cant grip champion as well as i can star and really want to see what kind of potential the star has after throwing the champion this weekend and loving the distance it gets.



Yes, beginning of the year sounds close. The Stars went to the East Coast for INNColor, I believe. Not sure exactly what they are sponsoring.

Dave, I know this came up a while back, but i dont recall ever seeing a yes, no, or maybe so answer, figured i would bring it back up. Will the Pig be ran in any other plastic than the soft pro? Love the disc and have two in the bag already, but they seem to beat up a little fast. I like how stable they are when new. Will we see some in Champ and Star in the near future? Thanks

Ryan



The Pig won't be run in any other plastic soon, but at some point in time we will run either Champion or Star, but probably not both.

The Pig won't be run in any other plastic soon, but at some point in time we will run either Champion or Star, but probably not both.



Great news, cant wait. Thanks Dave.


Ryan

Dave,

I was given possession of an Innova Raven and Innova Moray. They look fairly old and are DX plastic. I've never seen these before and was curious what the flight characteristics may be. I haven't thrown them because I thought they may be worth something to somebody. Thanks for your time.

BTW I did get some CFR Max's and have thrown them. They are more over stable then the Star material, as we assumed.

Moray = more stable stingray

Raven = less stable gazelle

Raven's an understable Viper, you big dummy... 180 max...

Dave,

I was given possession of an Innova Raven and Innova Moray. They look fairly old and are DX plastic. I've never seen these before and was curious what the flight characteristics may be. I haven't thrown them because I thought they may be worth something to somebody. Thanks for your time.

BTW I did get some CFR Max's and have thrown them. They are more over stable then the Star material, as we assumed.



The Moray (5,5,0,2) is fairly high speed stable, and is a version of a Stingray. Closest disc (flight wise) to it is the Sentinel from Millennium. The Raven (5,4,-1,2) has a small high speed turn, is a version of a Viper that acts like a fairway driver.

So nothing special I guess. Sounds like they will go into the backyard basket for goofing around. Thanks

are the star bosses going to have the big star stamp on them because i think that is a great stamp to start with and always is a hot seller when first released.



I don't disagree that it is a hot seller but I am a fan of a new stamp every once in a while. I have four discs in my bag right now with that stamp...

Ya but I always put one on my wall of champion and star of the first runs. And it sure would look good next to my Teerexs, Destroyers, and Xcalibers that all have the big star stamp.

Sorry for the confusion :D

ive got a first run barracuda it is huge in diameter and very flat with a big star stamp is it worth anything?

Not really but 'vintage' none the less.

what are the flight stats on the barracuda?

Hi Dave, I have a normal stamped Champion Classic Roc from several years ago that is by far my favorite mid-range, approach and putter disc. It's quite high speed stable with minimal fade even after years of use and has been since its first throw. Since the Champion version was discontinued, I picked up two Golden State Classic stamped Champ Classic Rocs and both are much less high speed stable, they are still good discs, but not really what I wanted. They will turn over from a moderate hyzer where my original holds whatever line I put it on. My questions are these: Was the classic roc discontinued in Champion because of this? Will Champions versions be run again anytime in the near future and if so will the mold be retooled to fly the like the originals? I can always go back to throwing a big bead aviar, which flies very similar to my good CR, but I really like the shallow rim of the Classic Roc much better. Thanks.

what are the flight stats on the barracuda?



5,4,-2,3 187 gm max 22.5 cm

Hi Dave, I have a normal stamped Champion Classic Roc from several years ago that is by far my favorite mid-range, approach and putter disc. It's quite high speed stable with minimal fade even after years of use and has been since its first throw. Since the Champion version was discontinued, I picked up two Golden State Classic stamped Champ Classic Rocs and both are much less high speed stable, they are still good discs, but not really what I wanted. They will turn over from a moderate hyzer where my original holds whatever line I put it on. My questions are these: Was the classic roc discontinued in Champion because of this? Will Champions versions be run again anytime in the near future and if so will the mold be retooled to fly the like the originals? I can always go back to throwing a big bead aviar, which flies very similar to my good CR, but I really like the shallow rim of the Classic Roc much better. Thanks.



There has been a transitional period with the Classic Roc over the past 5 yrs or so. We retooled part of the old mold, which had broken down over the years. The old tool was producing discs that were very similar in flight to the XD. When we retooled, it was more similar to the big bead. The newer version of Classic Roc has a blunter nose than an XD or the old version. The Classic Roc is not being discontinued, but there are no immediate plans to run Champion either. The new DX version will take pretty good abuse.

Who will win the USGDC Dave?

Who will win the USGDC, Dave?



Probably.

Hi, when you mention the release of the Boss in October, is that to retailers or CFR?

Hi, I was woundering if you plan on running 12 time KC aviars in stiff plastic with the flat top because the first run was stiff but domey like 9 time aviars. And the later run has flat tops but the plastic was on the soft side for KC pro. Thanks agian

Dave is busy with the USDGC this week. Please be patient and understand that he will respond when he can.



Hi, when you mention the release of the Boss in October, is that to retailers or CFR?




The Champion Boss will be released to retailers on October 6.

I have what looks like a regular champion valk, its clear yellow, but it doesnt have the JK signature like every other champion valk i see, and the font is different........ anyone know what this is?

Just the latest stamp they're using for the Champ Valkyrie. They dropped Juliana Korver, 5X from it. Don't know the details behind that except she doesn't tour as much nowadays. The STAR Valkyrie now has the Christian Sandstrom, World Distance Record 820' stamp. That's what I know.

Ok that makes sense, thanks!

So the world distance record was set with star plastic???

Ok that makes sense, thanks!

So the world distance record was set with star plastic???


Nope. DX.

840ft!

Says 820' on the disc.

Says 820' on the disc.


250m = 820.20997 ft.

Oops. My bad

Where's all of the Halloween discs this year. I saw a couple of DX Destroyers on ebay, but can't find them anywhere else.

Ok that makes sense, thanks!

So the world distance record was set with star plastic???


Nope. DX.



i believe it was a 167g DX Valkyrie. so let's not have anyone say their arms are too big to throw understable Valkyries, LOL ... unless they top the record -- and remember it is flat ground, laser measured, and air distance only :D

Is a Discmania P2 basically a beadless Aviar-X?

Hi, I was woundering if you plan on running 12 time KC aviars in stiff plastic with the flat top because the first run was stiff but domey like 9 time aviars. And the later run has flat tops but the plastic was on the soft side for KC pro. Thanks agian



The KC Aviar is running now and is normal stiff KC plastic. They appear to be flat as well.

Where's all of the Halloween discs this year. I saw a couple of DX Destroyers on ebay, but can't find them anywhere else.



They are coming.

Is a Discmania P2 basically a beadless Aviar-X?



I am not sure how to answer this question. If you mean structurally, yes. If you mean material, no. The Aviar-X
and the KC Aviar are identical in structure. The P2 is a cross between the KC or JK Aviar and a beadless putter.

I was asking about the structure. That sounds great. I assume its between a beadless aviar and a KC/JK in stability?

I was asking about the structure. That sounds great. I assume its between a beadless aviar and a KC/JK in stability?



Yes, it has the high speed stability of the driver with the low speed stability of a putter. Works for me.

Great. I have a real old 9x aviar that has the bead completely worn off and love the deep feel of it. I may hace to pick some up.

How would you describe the plastic to regular DX?

One more question, then I'll quit bothering you.

How does the P1 compare to the beadless aviar, flight and mold wise?

Thanks

as far as the release of the newer 12x aviars, how will we know they are in fact the new release stiff aviars? if we were going to purchase them off the internet.

**** it Jim, he's a disc design expert not a miracle worker!

Dave,
i bought a star excalibur that was doubled stamp at a local tournament yesterday. when i looked at again today, i noticed it had a star, E-XC on the center, below the weight. would that make it an eco plastic disc? just was wondering because it is orange. thanks!

One more question, then I'll quit bothering you.

How does the P1 compare to the beadless aviar, flight and mold wise?

Thanks



The plastic on the P2 is varied at this point from DX like to Pro like. The stiffer DX type are more stable generally than the softer ones. I prefer the stiffer ones. They are not as stiff as KC, more like DX.

The P1 is very much like our regular putter, but it is made of a soft, grippy, Pro type plastic. The flight starts out very straight and stable when new, but beats in to a soft, straight line. These will not hold a line when thrown for long approaches or drives. They will turn slowly, much like a regular putter. Neither the P1 or P2 is in major distribution at this point, but they are available from discgolfvalues.

as far as the release of the newer 12x aviars, how will we know they are in fact the new release stiff aviars? if we were going to purchase them off the internet.



Only buy from a knowledgeable dealer, who is willing to do the research if he doesn't know. You can tell him what you are looking for. He may or may not know the difference.

Dave,
i bought a star excalibur that was doubled stamp at a local tournament yesterday. when i looked at again today, i noticed it had a star, E-XC on the center, below the weight. would that make it an eco plastic disc? just was wondering because it is orange. thanks!



Yes, we put an E on most of the Echo stuff. Orange is one of the colors along with yellow, mint green, grey, and red.

Dave or anyone that knows
I have a KC pro Aviar that im trying to figure out if its a 10x or what time it is. It is stiff like the 10x but it was made in san marino so i dont know if that helps determine which run it is or not but thats pretty much all that i know about it. So any info would be greatly appreciated.

It says on the stamp. All Aviars are made from a san marino mold. The 11x and 0x are also pretty stiff.

Ok that makes sense, thanks!

So the world distance record was set with star plastic???


Nope. DX.



i believe it was a 167g DX Valkyrie. so let's not have anyone say their arms are too big to throw understable Valkyries, LOL ... unless they top the record -- and remember it is flat ground, laser measured, and air distance only :D



You forgot to mention a huge prevailing tailwind that makes almost everything overstable, hence the need for something light and flippy. Sandstrom would have a hard time getting a controlled 500' shot with that same disc in zero wind, let alone even a slight head/cross wind.

I know that it says it on the stamp but that part has been worn off and i have tried and tried to angle it correctly to see the run but i cant tell at all. So thats why i was curious if there were any other characteristics that i could look for to tell the run.

If the flight plate is sunken, there's a good chance its a later run of 11x or 0x, but thats not a definate. Most 10x's I've felt aren't as grainy feeling. its hard to tell without fondling it

true, there was a strong tailwind which makes discs more stable -- but let me correct myself: the Valkyrie he threw 820 ft was only 164g and last year at the Pro Worlds distance competition the tailwind was not very strong and Christian Sandstr�m (http://innovadiscs.com/team/christian.html) told me he still prefers DX Valkyries for distance (i had asked him if he had switched to any of the newer, faster more stable distance drivers now available in DX plastic).

The point is simply that most of the people saying their arms are too big to throw anything but the most stable drivers are overestimating their strength and armspeed and underestimating the importance of good technique.

Are condors ever going to be ran again? Possibly a Star fund raiser version?

Are condors ever going to be ran again? Possibly a Star fund raiser version?



It is possible that we will run Condors in a light weight domey DX for the MTA/TRC guys, and a 195-200 gm Star for the thumber or other disc golf guys. It is not currently scheduled.

Are condors ever going to be ran again? Possibly a Star fund raiser version?



It is possible that we will run Condors in a light weight domey DX for the MTA/TRC guys, and a 195-200 gm Star for the thumber or other disc golf guys. It is not currently scheduled.



When the new DX ones are pushing $25 on EBAY with over a day left in the auction, there's got to be a market for new Star ones... maybe not a huge market, but a market nonetheless...

http://cgi.ebay.com/INNOVA-CONDOR-200gr-...id=p3286.c0.m14 (http://cgi.ebay.com/INNOVA-CONDOR-200gr-SUPER-BIG-MINT-DISC-GOLF-RARE_W0QQitemZ270282245418QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item 270282245418&_trkparms=72%3A1205|39%3A1|66%3A2|65%3A12|240%3A13 18&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14)

please....:-)

I don't know about a market for Star, but we have an old school player here that's starting to hurt for some 200g DX. He's down to 3 left in his bag and none in reserve. A Condor in the right hands is an amazing thing to watch. He throws his Condor thumber (not the new style hook thumber but the old school frisbee style thumber) for just about all of his long approach shots and can roll them a good ways too. Of course it makes sense that they roll well. They are as big as hubcaps. :D

I don't know about a market for Star, but we have an old school player here that's starting to hurt for some 200g DX. He's down to 3 left in his bag and none in reserve. A Condor in the right hands is an amazing thing to watch. He throws his Condor thumber (not the new style hook thumber but the old school frisbee style thumber) for just about all of his long approach shots and can roll them a good ways too. Of course it makes sense that they roll well. They are as big as hubcaps. :D



David Greenwell and a few others also use the 200 gm Condor for thumber rollers.

My friend and I came up with an awesome idea for a 3 disc set. A Putter, Midrange, and Driver Combo...

Judge, Jury, and Executioner

Of course the Executioner as the driver...just a thought...

or the GOOD the BAD and the UGLY, no wait that's discraft!

GooF!!

I am curious about the First Run Pro Avairs. I just picked up a few and I am liking them as a putter. Why do you think they never caught on? Around here it is either JKs or KCs. The First Run Pros Seem to be somewhere in the middle between the two in regards to flexibility. They do seem to wear a bit faster than the JKs or KCs, was that the issue? When were they produced? Was there really only one run? The flight plate does not feel as thick as the 5X JKs being produced now, is that the case?

On another note, why did the JK Avairs become medium stiff to stiff in the late 4X runs and 5X runs. Is it possible to run more flexy JKs again? If so, I would like to let you know that lots of golfers in the Pacific Northwest would love it if you would. In the mean time I will keep hoarding my small stack of flexy 4Xs and hoping that I can pick up a stack of super flexy 5Xs to practice with. Thanks for your time and for all you do Dave!

I found the pro aviars to beat into squirrelly really fast, just like the pro teebirds.

I just saw that the Boss is listed on the Innova site and its rated as a -1 turn. Does that mean they wont be like an Xcaliber with more turn resistance? Were those olny the pre-releases?

I am curious about the First Run Pro Avairs. I just picked up a few and I am liking them as a putter. Why do you think they never caught on? Around here it is either JKs or KCs. The First Run Pros Seem to be somewhere in the middle between the two in regards to flexibility. They do seem to wear a bit faster than the JKs or KCs, was that the issue? When were they produced? Was there really only one run? The flight plate does not feel as thick as the 5X JKs being produced now, is that the case?

On another note, why did the JK Avairs become medium stiff to stiff in the late 4X runs and 5X runs. Is it possible to run more flexy JKs again? If so, I would like to let you know that lots of golfers in the Pacific Northwest would love it if you would. In the mean time I will keep hoarding my small stack of flexy 4Xs and hoping that I can pick up a stack of super flexy 5Xs to practice with. Thanks for your time and for all you do Dave!



Sorry, I don't remember the Pro Aviars unless they were a prototype for the JK or actualy Pro Driver material. If they were the Pro Driver material, we went away from that in all models except drivers as they weren't very popular. The drivers, on the other hand were very popular.

As for the JKs now: we run JKs as soft as we can without incurring molding problems. Usually that means a medium soft. As we go softer, we start to get warped and sunken flight plates. We are currently running JKs in medium and they look really good. We will try a softer batch, if we can, and maybe color code it to mark it.

I just saw that the Boss is listed on the Innova site and its rated as a -1 turn. Does that mean they wont be like an Xcaliber with more turn resistance? Were those olny the pre-releases?



Yes and no. The Boss is running with variation, like all the wide rimmed discs. The domey top version is more XCaliber like, (it was what I was originally testing), the flat version has a -2 turn and is very long, but also hard to predict in some situations. The mode variation turns out to be more Destroyer like with a -1 turn and a flight plate in between domey and flat. Probably 90 % will be the -1 type.

so i guess we have to ask online vendors if the ones we are ordering are domey or flat? any color clues? I just ordered 5 172 yellow from DTW, i will find out when i get them i guess.

will you be running them in dx? 150 specifically? if so, when? thx Dave

so i guess we have to ask online vendors if the ones we are ordering are domey or flat? any color clues? I just ordered 5 172 yellow from DTW, i will find out when i get them i guess.


will you be running them in dx? 150 specifically? if so, when? thx Dave



No color clues except the Merlot have had the most domey so far. Yes, we will try to run these in DX or Pro, or both. We can potentially run 150 in KC pro type or DX. I don't know what the time frame will be. The mold is currently locked up making Champion. Possibly December.

Don't always count on the merlot being the OS ones. I have 2 and they are definately the -1 type. Just ask for domey ones

I just saw that the Boss is listed on the Innova site and its rated as a -1 turn. Does that mean they wont be like an Xcaliber with more turn resistance? Were those olny the pre-releases?



Yes and no. The Boss is running with variation, like all the wide rimmed discs. The domey top version is more XCaliber like, (it was what I was originally testing), the flat version has a -2 turn and is very long, but also hard to predict in some situations. The mode variation turns out to be more Destroyer like with a -1 turn and a flight plate in between domey and flat. Probably 90 % will be the -1 type.



All 4 of mine I would call -1. I think it is going to simply replace my Destroyers. The "sweet spot" or cruising speed of the Boss' flight path seems more forgiving than the Destroyer. Somehow it seems faster yet less squirrely...I know it flies better on a flat line than a Destroyer. It also has a later fade than a Destroyer. None of mine are much like an Excaliber.

I can't yet speak for the durability of the plastic, but I must say that it is some of the best feeling champion plastic yet. It is very tacky, yet fairly rigid at the same time. I know that you guys must be tinkering with the plastic blend to get these to weight, but it does not seem to be affecting the quality. Great job Dave!

PS: I must contradict Dave's early assertion that the Boss will only benefit big arms...I think anyone who throws a Wraith or a Destroyer is going to want to try the Boss. I KNOW all the greybeards down here in FL are going to be throwing this disc for 300'+ hyzers. Its that easy to throw.

I too agree with Mike, mine is more of the -1 turn range. I love it, it has replaced my pro destroyer. And like Mike said, it has a much later fade.

Its the only champion plastic disc I carry.....

Love it! Great Disc! Anyone can benefit from this disc.

where is the number for the Bob Camp (Hottie at the Pro Shop art)spectator roc located?
Anyone?

bottom right of the disc. it's faded into the kids backpack

: ) :

Hi Dave and others,

I recently purchased a couple of yellow champion leopards and noticed that these are noticeably easier to find when it is getting dark.

The color is pretty close to the color of the disc on the innova page:

http://www.innovadiscs.com/discs/championLeopard.html

My question is this: Is this due to the color of the disc (and could I therefore expect the same characteristic from other bright yellow champ. discs) or is there blended some kind of fluorescent material into the plastic?

Thanks,
Arne

That color yellow/green disc is always easier to find when it's getting dark. Should not matter what model you have in the color. It's definitely a safer disc to throw than many in darker conditions. Not sure if anything special is added to the disc.

Hi Dave and others,

I recently purchased a couple of yellow champion leopards and noticed that these are noticeably easier to find when it is getting dark.

The color is pretty close to the color of the disc on the innova page:

http://www.innovadiscs.com/discs/championLeopard.html

My question is this: Is this due to the color of the disc (and could I therefore expect the same characteristic from other bright yellow champ. discs) or is there blended some kind of fluorescent material into the plastic?

Thanks,
Arne



I agree that my leopards are easy to find also, but they are usually under the basket!

Viva La Leopard!!!!!!!!!

Dave, I love the Leopard, its certainly my go-to disc for shots around 275-320. I have been throwing a couple Star Leopards and have a few CE Leopards also.

My friend just gave me a Pro Leopard the other day. I have never seen one before that day, nor had I heard of one. Did you guys just release the Leopard for the first time in Pro plastic?

I love the Pro version, it was exactly what I needed in my bag!

Thanks for all that you do Dave!

Dave, I love the Leopard, its certainly my go-to disc for shots around 275-320. I have been throwing a couple Star Leopards and have a few CE Leopards also.

My friend just gave me a Pro Leopard the other day. I have never seen one before that day, nor had I heard of one. Did you guys just release the Leopard for the first time in Pro plastic?

I love the Pro version, it was exactly what I needed in my bag!

Thanks for all that you do Dave!



Pro-line Leopards came out soon after CE disappeared. They were of a very interesting material that was closer to Champion than Pro plastic, yet opaque. Very durable.

Pro Leopards arrived when Innova came out with their Pro plastic to simulate the old SE runs. If memory serves me right, Teebirds, Aviars, and Leopards were among the first "Pro" plastic discs. The Leopard plastic was the most durable pro plastic I've ever had.

Actually, the oldest "Pro" Leopards are labeled "Pro", not "Pro-line" and are a transparent CE-like material. A bit more HSS than other Leopard flavors (like a TL, kinda). I love 'em; way more useful to me than DX, Champ, STAR, or "new" Pro!

Actually, the oldest "Pro" Leopards are labeled "Pro", not "Pro-line" and are a transparent CE-like material. A bit more HSS than other Leopard flavors (like a TL, kinda). I love 'em; way more useful to me than DX, Champ, STAR, or "new" Pro!



Yeah, I forgot about those...Same plastic as the early JK pro Valks, right?

Thanks Mike, mine is the same type plastic that is current Pro Plastic, not see through at all. And it has the updated standard "Pro" type stamp, I guess I just never saw or heard of one.

Glad I know about them now!

Thanks!

hey dave--any word on when you guys will be running star gators, and will they be x-type? thx again

Actually, the oldest "Pro" Leopards are labeled "Pro", not "Pro-line" and are a transparent CE-like material. A bit more HSS than other Leopard flavors (like a TL, kinda). I love 'em; way more useful to me than DX, Champ, STAR, or "new" Pro!



my favorite disc ever- just like a really fast aviar, almost totally neutral in flight characteristics.

I think it's about time for a fresh thread, it's been 18 months since the last one was started. I can't even load the last thread to search through it for info anymore.

Dave -

I'm a big fan of the Pig, it might replace the first run champ gators I'm running low on. Can't wait to see the Pig in other plastics! Also, I'm throwing a champion Cobra right now and am very impressed, are they still in production, or is it time to stock up on those? I also love the Star Whippet, is that going to be regular production anytime soon?

Thanks,
Dion



The Pig did take the place of the Gator for me. At first, I didn't think it had enough distance, but, like the Aviar, it goes as fast as you can throw it so you can get more than you think. We are not making Champion Cobras right now, but do have Star in CFR. The Star Whippet is also in CFR and not scheduled for main production.



Dave, I really got to use the Pig last weekend at CO States ... man, this disc saved a lot of strokes! With wind gusts 45+, I counted on the Pig to hold the line on some tough upshots ... and in very difficult putting conditions. Grabs the ground, and the chains!
Great job on this one! KUDOS!

Also ... I heard Borg was showing how the Boss flies. On the 903' hole #6, he managed a Birdie 3 ... in the high winds on Saturday! Amazing. I can't wait to try one.

Any chance these will be offered in the 150 class? I have a couple of 150 dx destroyers, and the glide and distance is awesome! Not predictable in headwind, but will really fly in tailwind. Any chance of some 150 star or champ destroyers?

hey dave--any word on when you guys will be running star gators, and will they be x-type? thx again



We won't be running any more Star Gators any time soon as we still have stock from the last run. If and when we run again, it will be the X type.

Any chance these will be offered in the 150 class? I have a couple of 150 dx destroyers, and the glide and distance is awesome! Not predictable in headwind, but will really fly in tailwind. Any chance of some 150 star or champ destroyers?



We can only make Destroyers down to around 167-168 gms in Champion or Star. The Boss is even harder to make lighter. We will try 150 class in DX for the Boss.

Actually, the oldest "Pro" Leopards are labeled "Pro", not "Pro-line" and are a transparent CE-like material. A bit more HSS than other Leopard flavors (like a TL, kinda). I love 'em; way more useful to me than DX, Champ, STAR, or "new" Pro!




my favorite disc ever- just like a really fast aviar, almost totally neutral in flight characteristics.




I'll gladly jump on that bandwagon. My original two 153 CE Leopards, both clear late runs, are still in my bag and are used EVERY single round I play. Best touch flick disc ever made!!! These late run CE's are indistinquishable from the clear Pro's that Ray is talking about. Any time there's a one disc challenge it's the disc I use. :cool::cool::cool:

exactly- the later non-opaque ce's and the first "pro" were basically the same (unless dave wants to set me straight :D). all other incarnations including the early ce's have a more pronounced flippiness, some more than others.

obviously good taste in discs can be correlated to liking harry crews (since i set both of you on him ;))

Do you still make Champion Eagle-X? I seem to only come across EL's.

Finally threw the Boss today and must say I'm pretty impressed. The flight was great and consistent. I borrowed it from a friend, but am considering picking one up this wknd. at a tournament. I find this to be a much better disc than the Destroyer and XCalibur, which IMO, are way overrated. I'm going to test the Boss out a little bit more this week, but if I do like the disc it'll be the first Innova disc I've had in my bag in 18 months. I must say kudos Mr. Dunipace.

Do you still make Champion Eagle-X? I seem to only come across EL's.



Yes, that is what we have been making for the past year or so.

exactly- the later non-opaque ce's and the first "pro" were basically the same (unless dave wants to set me straight :D). all other incarnations including the early ce's have a more pronounced flippiness, some more than others.

obviously good taste in discs can be correlated to liking harry crews (since i set both of you on him ;))



Indubitably! :D

Dave,
What kind of DX Roc's are this years pumpkins?

Dave,
What kind of DX Roc's are this years pumkins?



they are ranchos i have two one for the wall and one to throw

Does that mean they are "Classic" or regular DX?

They are the large diameter ranchos

classic rocs are completely different discs.

Have classic aviars been changed back to the BB driver mold? I just ran across a stack of twenty at a local shop that were all BB or is this just a fluke?

Have classic aviars been changed back to the BB driver mold? I just ran across a stack of twenty at a local shop that were all BB or is this just a fluke?



They could have been Aviar Drivers with the grid stamp, but they were not Classics as the Classic never had a BB.

Hey Dave I'm sure this has been asked already...

Will the Boss be coming out in the Pro Plastic like the destroyer and wraith? If so do you have a ETA?

Thanks in advanced.

Josh

why are Star versions of discs more expensive than Champion (market, materials, neither, both)?

also I initially found Star tended to break in faster and end up a little less stable than Champion but have heard that for some of the more stable distance drivers like the Destroyer the opposite is true (Star stays more overstable than Champion). is that true?

Hey Dave I'm sure this has been asked already...

Will the Boss be coming out in the Pro Plastic like the destroyer and wraith? If so do you have a ETA?

Thanks in advanced.

Josh



We have no plans at present to run the Boss in Pro.

why are Star versions of discs more expensive than Champion (market, materials, neither, both)?

also I initially found Star tended to break in faster and end up a little less stable than Champion but have heard that for some of the more stable distance drivers like the Destroyer the opposite is true (Star stays more overstable than Champion). is that true?



Cost of materials and molding; especially the reject rate.

also I initially found Star tended to break in faster and end up a little less stable than Champion but have heard that for some of the more stable distance drivers like the Destroyer the opposite is true (Star stays more overstable than Champion). is that true?



Champion Destroyers stay stable much longer than Star. I've never heard any firsthand contradiction of this.

Hey Dave I'm sure this has been asked already...

Will the Boss be coming out in the Pro Plastic like the destroyer and wraith? If so do you have a ETA?

Thanks in advanced.

Josh



We have no plans at present to run the Boss in Pro.



I hope you guys change your mind...I have a hunch they would fly farther than anything, but we can let the Champion Boss have its time in the limelight.

Question: I've thrown about 10 Bosses and I've not encountered any that were as stable as an Xcal. In a headwind this weekend the Boss was touchy...it definetely wanted to flip a decent amount. I think a stable run or an X version would be appreciated for big arms and wind(it makes the Xcal seem so slow...).

i am sure the next disc they come out with will be a more stable speed 13 disc. could be wrong...

The Boss bombs! I received two of the Dave Feldberg stamps today. Way more over-stable than expected. Very much like an Xcaliber with more speed and glide. They both are firm and have the pop-top that makes the heartbeat sound when you flex the flight plate. They consistently land 20-30 ft farther than expected. I need a flippy one for Max D.

I also finally found a comfortable power grip. I need to thank you Dave for talking me into at the Duos tourney. I couldnt throw the wide-rim stuff until now. :D:DSee you at the Halloween Classic?

Hi Dave, is it possible to have a star material bottom and a pro material top? or any other combo? just wondering if you ever tried that before or if the two materials wouldn't adhere or combine... Thanks

Question: I've thrown about 10 Bosses and I've not encountered any that were as stable as an Xcal. In a headwind this weekend the Boss was touchy...it definetely wanted to flip a decent amount. I think a stable run or an X version would be appreciated for big arms and wind(it makes the Xcal seem so slow...).



Right now, the domey Bosses are the more stable. If you don't get one with a "poppy top" then it will fly more like a Wraith than an XCaliber. The flatter the dome, the more touchy and flippy it will be.

Hi Dave, is it possible to have a star material bottom and a pro material top? or any other combo? just wondering if you ever tried that before or if the two materials wouldn't adhere or combine... Thanks



Yes, it is possible, but takes more steps to accomplish, and would be more expensive.

Hi Dave, is it possible to have a star material bottom and a pro material top? or any other combo? just wondering if you ever tried that before or if the two materials wouldn't adhere or combine... Thanks



Yes, it is possible, but takes more steps to accomplish, and would be more expensive.



would 1/2 and 1/2 ever work? 1/2 star 1/2 champ or something really clear? (like a 1/2 moon cookie... mmmmm coookie!) or maybe a little ying yang looking? understand the cost and the 'why would I want to' factor... just curious

Hi Dave, is it possible to have a star material bottom and a pro material top? or any other combo? just wondering if you ever tried that before or if the two materials wouldn't adhere or combine... Thanks



Yes, it is possible, but takes more steps to accomplish, and would be more expensive.



would 1/2 and 1/2 ever work? 1/2 star 1/2 champ or something really clear? (like a 1/2 moon cookie... mmmmm coookie!) or maybe a little ying yang looking? understand the cost and the 'why would I want to' factor... just curious



I've seen more than enough Innova plastic over the years to confirm that these sort of things happen with some regularity. I've seen almost clear star, all kinds of variations of champ, pro that was like Star before Star existed, etc. Products of Innova's infamous night shift... :D

That would be cool but would one side of the disc beat in faster....DX/Pro for wet weather....cool but prolly not gonna make it....the top and bottom would be cool though and at least I would pay a little more for a combo disc :D

Yeah but you can sell anything to a Texan...

We can't help but buy things with all the money we win a OKIE' tourneys :cool::D:p

Dave--will you guys be coming out with another speed 13 disc that is more [over]stable than the boss? if so, when? also--looking forward to the 150 dx boss. Lastly--I believe you said somewhere that this is as wide as innova's rims will go. Is this true? thx again--

Dave - Why aren't there more signature discs? Innova has many World Champion players on its roster and in my opinion, they should be recognized with a signature disc. There is a section on each of the Innova disc pages with Pro comments. A lot of them have a particular pro that says this is my favorite disc and so forth. I'm fortunate enough to get to play with Dave Greenwell on occasion. He uses a Condor so much that I'm about ready to buy one just in hopes of getting some of his mojo and he is the one that has commented on the Condor page. I've also gotten to meet Dr. Voakes, he should have a line of 150g stuff with his name on it.

new production run of Bosses have Feldberg on them

Dave - Why aren't there more signature discs? Innova has many World Champion players on its roster and in my opinion, they should be recognized with a signature disc. There is a section on each of the Innova disc pages with Pro comments. A lot of them have a particular pro that says this is my favorite disc and so forth. I'm fortunate enough to get to play with Dave Greenwell on occasion. He uses a Condor so much that I'm about ready to buy one just in hopes of getting some of his mojo and he is the one that has commented on the Condor page. I've also gotten to meet Dr. Voakes, he should have a line of 150g stuff with his name on it.



I think the Dr. Rick idea has some merit. If people saw the sig of a multi-time world champ on special "150-class" discs it might remove some of the stigma associated with throwing light plastic (e.g., heavy plastic is more manly). Could boost sales a bit, definitely in that product line.

Oh no!!! What am I saying?!?! This will only help other weenie-arms and geezers improve their games! I'll lose what compeitive edge I had on any of them!!! Aaaaaaaaaaaaugh!!!!!!!

Dave--will you guys be coming out with another speed 13 disc that is more [over]stable than the boss? if so, when? also--looking forward to the 150 dx boss. Lastly--I believe you said somewhere that this is as wide as innova's rims will go. Is this true? thx again--



Yes, this is as wide as we will go. We might make a speed 13 model that is more stable, but it might not be possible as we are very close to the weight limit now. If we did, the discs would most likely only be 175 gms in Champion or Star. We have no plans at this point, but that could change by next year some time.

Dave - Why aren't there more signature discs? Innova has many World Champion players on its roster and in my opinion, they should be recognized with a signature disc. There is a section on each of the Innova disc pages with Pro comments. A lot of them have a particular pro that says this is my favorite disc and so forth. I'm fortunate enough to get to play with Dave Greenwell on occasion. He uses a Condor so much that I'm about ready to buy one just in hopes of getting some of his mojo and he is the one that has commented on the Condor page. I've also gotten to meet Dr. Voakes, he should have a line of 150g stuff with his name on it.



I think the Dr. Rick idea has some merit. If people saw the sig of a multi-time world champ on special "150-class" discs it might remove some of the stigma associated with throwing light plastic (e.g., heavy plastic is more manly). Could boost sales a bit, definitely in that product line.

Oh no!!! What am I saying?!?! This will only help other weenie-arms and geezers improve their games! I'll lose what compeitive edge I had on any of them!!! Aaaaaaaaaaaaugh!!!!!!!



love the flip/flop contradiction in your post... 'stigma about big arms' then the 'weenie-arm' comment.

classic!

Dave - Why aren't there more signature discs? Innova has many World Champion players on its roster and in my opinion, they should be recognized with a signature disc.


I believe Innova pays the person some royalty per disc with the signature on it. If putting a person's signature on a disc isn't perceived to generate more sales than with no signature, it's strictly a business decision that has nothing to do with how many titles a particular player has.

Dave -- chicken/egg question:

are "Ching"/Full-Color Rocs flattened by the process or for the process?

Thanks!

new production run of Bosses have Feldberg on them



That is what made me ask the question. He is a 1X and he has a disc. Why doesn't some of the multiple champs other than Kenny, Juliana and Barry have a disc? Dean Tannock, Dave Greenwell, Dr. Rick, Des and Jay, Valerie, Peter Shrive with 8 World Championships, etc.

Dave -- chicken/egg question:

are "Ching"/Full-Color Rocs flattened by the process or for the process?

Thanks!



I throw flat top full color rocs as my go-to midrange. I asked the same question previously and was told BY the process.

Got any max weight that you are trying to part with? :D
Skulls first, all others in a close second!

new production run of Bosses have Feldberg on them



That is what made me ask the question. He is a 1X and he has a disc. Why doesn't some of the multiple champs other than Kenny, Juliana and Barry have a disc? Dean Tannock, Dave Greenwell, Dr. Rick, Des and Jay, Valerie, Peter Shrive with 8 World Championships, etc.



i think the short answer would be because they are in 'protected' divisions... although I could see Des/Val getting their name on a disc if/when they start racking up the titles like JK (maybe they already have a few... not sure and cant check with the website down).

I think they should make a 'David Wiggins Jr' signature mini (i believe he has 5 world titles... but something tells me he'll have a lot more including the 'one that counts' down the road!!! :)

Barry S. has a signature Beast

Barry S. has a signature Beast



As well as a signature Leopard.

he wrote OTHER than Kenny, Juliana and Barry. you missed the boat.

new production run of Bosses have Feldberg on them



That is what made me ask the question. He is a 1X and he has a disc. Why doesn't some of the multiple champs other than Kenny, Juliana and Barry have a disc? Dean Tannock, Dave Greenwell, Dr. Rick, Des and Jay, Valerie, Peter Shrive with 8 World Championships, etc.



Open division gets the most weight, right or wrong. Next would be multiple championships. Harold Duvall probably should have been given a signiture disc long ago with 2 world open titles. The highest ranking protected division player would be Juliana, followed by Stan McDaniel, Peter Shive, and Des Reading. Most of the others you have mentioned are in consideration too.

Would they have to get different discs other than the ones signed, or would they get to put their sig on the same disc? Example, one could have a KC Wraith, and a DT (Dean Tannock) Wraith.

Obviously they would fly exactly the same, but just putting their sig on a disc would show their accomplishments and Innova recognizing them.

Ive also heard that another player had a signature disc but not anymore.

Robj, good idea. Hadn't really thought about it, but I like it. Thanks.



Hi Dave, it is 4 and a half years later so my question now is:

any plans for a 25th anniversary Aviar? :eek: :D

Ive also heard that another player had a signature disc but not anymore.



Juliana doesnt have the JK Valkyrie anymore so that could be who you are thinking of.

....The highest ranking protected division player would be Juliana, followed by Stan McDaniel, Peter Shive, and Des Reading. Most of the others you have mentioned are in consideration too.



sign me up for some first run Mule discs!!! Stan McDaniel signature disc would be AWESOME!



Ive also heard that another player had a signature disc but not anymore.



Juliana doesnt have the JK Valkyrie anymore so that could be who you are thinking of.



or maybe Cam Todd? (not sure if he ever had an Innova signature disc)

There were rumors of Cam Todd TeeBirds but I think they were simply just rumors.

They weren't a Cam Signature discs, they were CE TBs that were stamped by him

Robj, good idea. Hadn't really thought about it, but I like it. Thanks.



Hi Dave, it is 4 and a half years later so my question now is:

any plans for a 25th anniversary Aviar? :eek: :D



No plans yet, but a good idea. :cool:

how about 25th anniversary for the Roc?! (assuming it hasn't passed already)

Ive also heard that another player had a signature disc but not anymore.



i think a few people have had sig disc one was mentioned and the other that i have seen is a brad hammock wraith (every disc that had his sig on it is gold)

there are a lot of innova guys/gals who have had their signature on a stamped special run of discs (if this is what you are talking about)... what people are talking about here is a regular production run (like Barry's beast, Kenny's Roc, and now Feldberg's Boss)

I think normally if an Innova player wins the Worlds then they are given 100 special discs with their name on them. Dr. Rick has given 2 of them to me, one being a Star TeeBird the other being a Gold Star Wraith, and I've seen Des Reading ones as well. But obviously these are not production run.

Any idea on how many molds have been made in Echo?
Thanks

Any idea on how many molds have been made in Echo?
Thanks



XCal, Destroy, Roadrunner, Kite, Leopard, Orc in Star. Other models in DX
Echo were Aviar, Aero, Leopard, Shark, and maybe a couple others.

Dave - Why aren't there more signature discs? Innova has many World Champion players on its roster and in my opinion, they should be recognized with a signature disc. There is a section on each of the Innova disc pages with Pro comments. A lot of them have a particular pro that says this is my favorite disc and so forth. I'm fortunate enough to get to play with Dave Greenwell on occasion. He uses a Condor so much that I'm about ready to buy one just in hopes of getting some of his mojo and he is the one that has commented on the Condor page. I've also gotten to meet Dr. Voakes, he should have a line of 150g stuff with his name on it.



I think the Dr. Rick idea has some merit. If people saw the sig of a multi-time world champ on special "150-class" discs it might remove some of the stigma associated with throwing light plastic (e.g., heavy plastic is more manly). Could boost sales a bit, definitely in that product line.

Oh no!!! What am I saying?!?! This will only help other weenie-arms and geezers improve their games! I'll lose what compeitive edge I had on any of them!!! Aaaaaaaaaaaaugh!!!!!!!



love the flip/flop contradiction in your post... 'stigma about big arms' then the 'weenie-arm' comment.

classic!



I'm merely pointing out the absurdity of the stigma by using it sarcastically later in the post. I'm sure you've seen or heard that rhetorical mechanism used before. Yes?

how about 25th anniversary for the Roc?! (assuming it hasn't passed already)



20th anniversary for the Roc was last year, you have to wait four years ;).

Any idea on how many molds have been made in Echo?
Thanks



XCal, Destroy, Roadrunner, Kite, Leopard, Orc in Star. Other models in DX
Echo were Aviar, Aero, Leopard, Shark, and maybe a couple others.



Can WE ALL buy them or are we still waiting.... I haven't seen a eco section on any of the websites

Dave,

I bought an Aviar P&amp;A a month or three ago and it has the Patent #, the website engraved underneath and a single ring. I won another P&amp;A as a CTP recently and it has both of the above plus the San Marino address on the bottom with a double ring. Is there any significant difference in the two?

TIA

Any idea on how many molds have been made in Echo?
Thanks



XCal, Destroy, Roadrunner, Kite, Leopard, Orc in Star. Other models in DX
Echo were Aviar, Aero, Leopard, Shark, and maybe a couple others.



Can WE ALL buy them or are we still waiting.... I haven't seen a eco section on any of the websites



They are all available to any dealer who purchases them. They are still available in XCalibers, Leopards, and Wraiths. They are made in a limited supply and are not always available.

Dave,

I bought an Aviar P&amp;A a month or three ago and it has the Patent #, the website engraved underneath and a single ring. I won another P&amp;A as a CTP recently and it has both of the above plus the San Marino address on the bottom with a double ring. Is there any significant difference in the two?

TIA



There is no significant difference. The www. core has been repaired. The San Marino core has not been repaired yet, but is slated to be.

What I would like to see is a 11 speed Monarch. Any chance we will see this?

Also, when are we going to see Star Monarchs?

Dave... Do you feel like any of the PDGA legal specs are limiting you in creating next generation discs? Obviously you're doing a great job of finding ways to work within the specs... just curious if you could take the sport/discs to another level if some of the specs were relaxed... discs up to 200g? even wider wings? rigidity tests?

no specific reason for asking... just curious. to me its like giving a talented painter only a couple colors and a small canvas to work with... you'd wonder what he could do if the sky was the limit!

Think Aerobie...

I think normally if an Innova player wins the Worlds then they are given 100 special discs with their name on them. Dr. Rick has given 2 of them to me, one being a Star TeeBird the other being a Gold Star Wraith, and I've seen Des Reading ones as well. But obviously these are not production run.



Believe this is correct - I have a couple Light Purple Dean Tannock Star Wraiths &amp; a Gold Schultz Star Wraith.

What I would like to see is a 11 speed Monarch. Any chance we will see this?

Also, when are we going to see Star Monarchs?



Star Monarchs should be available soon as a fundraiser for 2009 Worlds. We have two faster Monarch like discs in development.

Dave... Do you feel like any of the PDGA legal specs are limiting you in creating next generation discs? Obviously you're doing a great job of finding ways to work within the specs... just curious if you could take the sport/discs to another level if some of the specs were relaxed... discs up to 200g? even wider wings? rigidity tests?

no specific reason for asking... just curious. to me its like giving a talented painter only a couple colors and a small canvas to work with... you'd wonder what he could do if the sky was the limit!



I think the PDGA specs are fine as is. I certainly don't want heavier discs in our sport as I don't think brute strength over technique is a good thing. I do like the distance that the discs go, but I think we need to be certain we are throwing discs and not plates or rings. Discs have to be defined someway to ensure this. I want the sport to be easily played by the widest group of people possible: male,female, young, and old. I want the sport to be reasonably safe. I think baseball is reasonably safe, so you can extrapolate from that. And certainly I won't stop trying to make discs fly farther, (within the current parameters), for all types of players because I think people get a big kick out of throwing discs far.

Dave, are you surprised the Valkyrie still holds the distance record, and what newer disc(s) do you feel have the best shot at breaking the Valkyrie world record?

btw, having a Sandstrom signature disc (Star Valk) is pretty cool, although i still look forward to a 6x JK Aviar-x. Does she plan to compete at Pro Worlds 2009?

thanks as always for your time.

Does she plan to compete at Pro Worlds 2009?


She has said she had such a good time as a marshal at Worlds that she would like to do that again versus playing. It sounds like she may be more likely to go for a Master Womens title sometime in the future.

Hey Dave,

Any chance we might see a star pig in the future. The pro pigs just beat in too fast. Dont get me wrong the pig is one great disc!

Hi Dave-any idea when you guys will do dx bosses?
thx

Does she plan to compete at Pro Worlds 2009?


She has said she had such a good time as a marshal at Worlds that she would like to do that again versus playing. It sounds like she may be more likely to go for a Master Womens title sometime in the future.



ouch! if you're right (and i hope you're not) i will have to give up on a 6x JK Aviar-x and instead look forward to a future Nicole Frazer signature disc...

What is the difference between a Pig and a Rhyno, the bead?

What is the difference between a Pig and a Rhyno, the bead?



About 4,000 lbs. and a horn on the nose. :D