So who's thrown the new Teebird +? I have got one of the Carolina Clash Glo's at max weight, and loving it.

Finding it a little less HSS stable out of the box than some of the star and 12x champs I have thrown, but just as LSS. Makes for a pretty sweet run.

Thoughts? Comments?

I have two DGV champs I am willing to trade. Can't stand the feel of them, early release problems.

[QUOTE=davei;1419807]This is an issue we have been dealing with for a long time. We went to digital scales thinking they would be better, but they were worse.[QUOTE]

Dave,
At work we weigh grease that we put into driveshafts in grams. We use digital scales that are calibrated annually. On a normal day we use a calibrated weight to test the scale. Another thing about high end scales are that they are very environment/wind sensitive. If you have fans blowing in the factory then that would change the measurement. We have our scales enclosed on 4 sides (left, right, rear, and top) to keep our fans from changing the measurements. Depending on the way the fans are blowing you could get lift (to make the disc measure lighter) or drag (make the disc measure heavier). If our measurements meet Ford standards then I would think they are pretty precise and the technique could work for you too. I could get you the name and model number of the scales if you want.

I'm sure Dave mentioned this at some point, but there is some water loss/gain that can occur as the disc "cures" affecting the final weight of a disc

So who's thrown the new Teebird +? I have got one of the Carolina Clash Glo's at max weight, and loving it.

Finding it a little less HSS stable out of the box than some of the star and 12x champs I have thrown, but just as LSS. Makes for a pretty sweet run.

Thoughts? Comments?

Really? I threw the Teebird+ and my 11x Teebird(with CA. engraving) side by side today into a steady 20+mph headwind today to test the stability of each. The Tee+ had a touch more HSS and more LSS than my 11x. But, my 11x is a few months old, and the difference between the two could be attributed to that... Point is that I found the Tee+ to be a stable predictable flyer. BTW, I don't throw as far as some others, just around 300ft, so that should be taken into account also.

Maybe workers see a number on the scales a few times and go with that to hurry production. I think weight is important, why else write it on the disc? If there is water loss or gain, then when will that happen? I've yet to own a disc that gains weight, though some lose weight from wear and tear. I'm not trying to be a pain, just as a consumer I would like to see more accurate weights for purchase.

Really? I threw the Teebird+ and my 11x Teebird(with CA. engraving) side by side today into a steady 20+mph headwind today to test the stability of each. The Tee+ had a touch more HSS and more LSS than my 11x. But, my 11x is a few months old, and the difference between the two could be attributed to that... Point is that I found the Tee+ to be a stable predictable flyer. BTW, I don't throw as far as some others, just around 300ft, so that should be taken into account also.

I thought so. Maybe it's just the one I got? Anyone else find their TB+ more HSS than others?

I have two DGV champs I am willing to trade. Can't stand the feel of them, early release problems.

How stiff are those? I have been wondering?

How stiff are those? I have been wondering?

Very. one more than the other but both are not soft.

Dave,

Just curious about this ebay posting:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290417955718&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

Seller states this disc is, "...a later run that is a Special Blend mix...", and "...has STB 170 written on the bottom and feels like a mixture of champion, star and CE..."

Is there indeed, or has there been in the past, a "special blend" mix designated STB on the KC Pro Teebird? Mark at DGV has 11x KC Pro Teebirds for sale that look exactly like the pic in this seller's posting. Wondering if they are one in the same.

Dave,

Just curious about this ebay posting:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290417955718&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

Seller states this disc is, "...a later run that is a Special Blend mix...", and "...has STB 170 written on the bottom and feels like a mixture of champion, star and CE..."

Is there indeed, or has there been in the past, a "special blend" mix designated STB on the KC Pro Teebird? Mark at DGV has 11x KC Pro Teebirds for sale that look exactly like the pic in this seller's posting. Wondering if they are one in the same.

Yes, there was a small batch. It was part of a run where we used the stabilizing process and materials on TeeBirds. The ones I remember were blue.

Yes, there was a small batch. It was part of a run where we used the stabilizing process and materials on TeeBirds. The ones I remember were blue.

Thanks for the reply. Do you know if that small batch is what Mark has for sale at DGV, or were these released sometime ago?

Thanks for the reply. Do you know if that small batch is what Mark has for sale at DGV, or were these released sometime ago?

Sorry, no I don't, but Mark should know.

Dave,

How would you say the star dart compares to the star skeeter as far as drives?

Thanks

Dave,

How would you say the star dart compares to the star skeeter as far as drives?

Thanks

The Star Skeeter has more speed and more glide, but the Star Dart has more wind resistance and torque resistance. The Star Skeeter might be better for lower power throwers and the Dart can be used by higher power throwers. Both fly very straight. I have thrown both quite a bit and I prefer the Dart even though it has a shorter range, it is more reliable for me.

The Star Skeeter has more speed and more glide, but the Star Dart has more wind resistance and torque resistance. The Star Skeeter might be better for lower power throwers and the Dart can be used by higher power throwers. Both fly very straight. I have thrown both quite a bit and I prefer the Dart even though it has a shorter range, it is more reliable for me.

Thanks Dave, thats exactly what i wanted to know. I recently got a star skeeter, looking for a straighter version of the spider, and it seems too understable for me especially in any wind so looks like i need to get a star dart.

I just want to tak this Oppurtunity to Brag on the CFr (Champ) Destroyers. Wow what a disc. I throw Destroyers, Boss's and Nukes. I wanted to sclae down my bag for a recent Tourny and So I just went with 3 Destroyers for all D Shots. WOW, these things Rock. I I have 1 Ch beat in Destroyer, I kinda New and 1 bradn New for windy and ovrestable Hyzers. I have some distance, but Im more know for my consistancy.. I can throw 400ft, and with a great shot..430-440. I was pumping the Ch Destroyers out around 430-450 all weekend. I out drove my card most of the time with these. and to my surprise they are not just big bomb disc but also good controllable D. Im very impressed with the control I have at 400ft +. and then Sunday the wind was Brutal, I got real nervous because I took out my overstable drivers for wind. All I had was a brand new Ch Destroyer. and wow It held its own. I was still out driving guys into head winds and it never fliped out of control. It could hold a line into a mean head wind.
So If anybody is looking for a consistant looong distance driver, check out the Champ Destroyer. If you have a brand new one, be patient and allow the disc to wrok in as they become much farther throwing disc with age. Way to go Innova.

I just want to tak this Oppurtunity to Brag on the CFr (Champ) Destroyers. Wow what a disc. I throw Destroyers, Boss's and Nukes. I wanted to sclae down my bag for a recent Tourny and So I just went with 3 Destroyers for all D Shots. WOW, these things Rock. I I have 1 Ch beat in Destroyer, I kinda New and 1 bradn New for windy and ovrestable Hyzers. I have some distance, but Im more know for my consistancy.. I can throw 400ft, and with a great shot..430-440. I was pumping the Ch Destroyers out around 430-450 all weekend. I out drove my card most of the time with these. and to my surprise they are not just big bomb disc but also good controllable D. Im very impressed with the control I have at 400ft +. and then Sunday the wind was Brutal, I got real nervous because I took out my overstable drivers for wind. All I had was a brand new Ch Destroyer. and wow It held its own. I was still out driving guys into head winds and it never fliped out of control. It could hold a line into a mean head wind.
So If anybody is looking for a consistant looong distance driver, check out the Champ Destroyer. If you have a brand new one, be patient and allow the disc to wrok in as they become much farther throwing disc with age. Way to go Innova.

ive found some similar results with one of my cfr destroyers from later 2008, i'm curious John.. do you like only max weight ones? the one ive grown to love is a domey 169. I normally want to throw max weight, but this one holds so straight. what weights do you throw?

Quick question...I'm looking at getting some inner chains for the discatcher sports I have. Who do I need to get in touch with at Innova to get ahold of these? Dave are you the one or do you just handle discs? If you're not the one (I feel like we're in the Matrix now...) who do I need to talk to and how much $$$ do they run? Thanks. I've heard it's cheaper to just go buy the chain but I'd rather pay a little more and do less work on getting everything right. Thanks for whatever info you can give!

Quick question...I'm looking at getting some inner chains for the discatcher sports I have. Who do I need to get in touch with at Innova to get ahold of these? Dave are you the one or do you just handle discs? If you're not the one (I feel like we're in the Matrix now...) who do I need to talk to and how much $$$ do they run? Thanks. I've heard it's cheaper to just go buy the chain but I'd rather pay a little more and do less work on getting everything right. Thanks for whatever info you can give!

You should be able to get chain sets from either coast's sales office. I don't know off hand how much they are, but I will find out. The entire set of outer and inner with S hooks, looks like $100 for the Pro model. I don't know about the Sport model. I don't know if we even sell inner sets for those. Neal on the east coast. Mark on the west coast.

When was the Phenix made?

1987 or 1988

Sam Ferrans held a distance workd record with this disc. I had a sweet skip ace with one.

When was the Phenix made?

The beginning of 1988. The PDGA has it listed as Jan 1988.

The beginning of 1988. The PDGA has it listed as Jan 1988.

Dave, when I was asking you some questions about the article for Discgolfer, you mentioned that you created the Phoenix with the purpose of breaking the distance record. Care to expound on that?

Quick question...I'm looking at getting some inner chains for the discatcher sports I have. Who do I need to get in touch with at Innova to get ahold of these? Dave are you the one or do you just handle discs? If you're not the one (I feel like we're in the Matrix now...) who do I need to talk to and how much $$$ do they run? Thanks. I've heard it's cheaper to just go buy the chain but I'd rather pay a little more and do less work on getting everything right. Thanks for whatever info you can give!

What? You don't want to sit for hours with a bucket of chains, bolt cutters, bag full of s hooks, bag full of 4 inch rings, and 2 sets of pliers?

Oh yeah, then you have to remove the top of the basket to put on the inner chains.

Its really a 2 man job. Thank God i was out of a job when i did this for two different 18 hole courses.

ive found some similar results with one of my cfr destroyers from later 2008, i'm curious John.. do you like only max weight ones? the one ive grown to love is a domey 169. I normally want to throw max weight, but this one holds so straight. what weights do you throw?

well My Buddy Matt who can throw about 40-50 ft further than me Swears by the 167-169 CFR Domey Destroyers. he loves them, They do seem overstable just as good as a max weight. How ever I like to throw similar disc with tail wind, cross wind and head wind and I find Im more consistant and confident with a max weight. 173--175. I do have 2 172 that i like alot and it seems i can turn out of my hand a little easier. But Im having all my success with the heavier ones (once they break in a little) like i said they are pretty overstable while new.
in my opinion the heavy ones will break in to awesome disc for you just like the 169 but it might take a few months.
My purple 175 CFR destroyers is about 2 yrs old and its out performing all my other fast drivers.

I apologize if this has been asked before, but are the Roc+ overstable or is just the rim configuration different than the previous versions?

According to Dave, the R+ has the same HSS but less LSS than the current Rancho mold.

Ok I was out practicing my Drives across a field today and I was pondering Ideas about why we choose certain drivers and why so many different players vary with what they deem as the best driver:
We know about different styles of throws but I was thinking about how many different players vary when it comes to the amount of SNAP they put on a disc. Here an idea I have to explain why I choose my disc and maybe this will just be interesting to read, or perhaps help some players choose a good driver for the.???
For this exercise lest put “Snap” into a range.
Say a Valkyrie/Sidewinder would be 1 (least) and a Teebird / Tracker would be about 5, and a destroyer / Force would be about 7-8 and then a Boss 8, a Firebird/Max/Predator would be 10.
If you can SNAP a 10 Disc then Your name is Robbie Bratten, He can snap a drive with all his strength and a predator will fly strait for him. He has so much snap he can actually make a Pred anny when he release it strait. That’s definitely more snap than I have. Now people all differ in how much snapo they have. Some of my friends have to tape finger tips as they are snapping very hard with tight grips. And some guys just realease disc with spin and don’t snap so hard as they have loose grips. I would say im in the middle as I have to chalk or rub dirt on finger tips to get a smooth release and not hurt my fingers, my grip is pretty hard.
I would put my SNAP level at about a 7. To me I Snap hard and I like to released very Strait or flat. I can flip a 175 teebird If I put all my snap into a shot, where Robbie Bratten could snap over a Pred if he threw with same strength. So im learning why I love my certain drivers and others don’t have the same opinion. For me I am practicing with Champion Boss’s, Champion Destroyers, Star Destroyers, Pro Destroyers, ESP NUKES.
I am tweaking my shots and learning which is the best distance driver for My SNAP. I think a beat in Champion Destroyer ranges in the 7, 6.1/2 range if its well beat in. So I think my SNAP is around a 6-7 depending on how hard I throw. I’m getting my Snap ranges from looking at the Stability chart from Marshal Streets Disc Golf Chart. So for me If a Destroyer beats in and becomes a little less over stable then it becomes a perfect SNAP ranger for my distance shots with good control. The Boss’s are to over stable so my best Snap can’t throw them Strait and they just go left. I am liking the Nukes as their Snap range is a little less than the destroyer so they are flying very well for me.
I just thought it was cool to put these drivers in a Snap range. I know a lot of guys differ with their amount of SNAP. Some Hyzer flip, some release flat. And guys like Robbie can release hyzer and flip anny a predator….anyways I know this is long but it was interesting to my brain.

Dave, when I was asking you some questions about the article for Discgolfer, you mentioned that you created the Phoenix with the purpose of breaking the distance record. Care to expound on that?


I retooled the old Aero mold, which was on its last legs. I knew what I wanted to make, (it was in the original patent drawings). I also knew that the disc would not be a particularly good golf disc. It was fairly over stable at low speeds and stable to slightly under at high speeds. I taught Sam Ferrans how to throw a high anhyzer, which was necessary for this type of disc. It took him about 2 weeks to get it down. He was the first to use this style of distance throwing. The disc was legal to 190, but we used a lighter disc at 176-177gms to get more carry and initial acceleration. First tournament, he set the record. He had thrown farther in practice though, so it wasn't a fluke. The mold didn't last too much longer.
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Ok I was out practicing my Drives across a field today and I was pondering Ideas about why we choose certain drivers and why so many different players vary with what they deem as the best driver:
We know about different styles of throws but I was thinking about how many different players vary when it comes to the amount of SNAP they put on a disc. Here an idea I have to explain why I choose my disc and maybe this will just be interesting to read, or perhaps help some players choose a good driver for the.???
For this exercise lest put �Snap� into a range.
Say a Valkyrie/Sidewinder would be 1 (least) and a Teebird / Tracker would be about 5, and a destroyer / Force would be about 7-8 and then a Boss 8, a Firebird/Max/Predator would be 10.
If you can SNAP a 10 Disc then Your name is Robbie Bratten, He can snap a drive with all his strength and a predator will fly strait for him. He has so much snap he can actually make a Pred anny when he release it strait. That�s definitely more snap than I have. Now people all differ in how much snapo they have. Some of my friends have to tape finger tips as they are snapping very hard with tight grips. And some guys just realease disc with spin and don�t snap so hard as they have loose grips. I would say im in the middle as I have to chalk or rub dirt on finger tips to get a smooth release and not hurt my fingers, my grip is pretty hard.
I would put my SNAP level at about a 7. To me I Snap hard and I like to released very Strait or flat. I can flip a 175 teebird If I put all my snap into a shot, where Robbie Bratten could snap over a Pred if he threw with same strength. So im learning why I love my certain drivers and others don�t have the same opinion. For me I am practicing with Champion Boss�s, Champion Destroyers, Star Destroyers, Pro Destroyers, ESP NUKES.
I am tweaking my shots and learning which is the best distance driver for My SNAP. I think a beat in Champion Destroyer ranges in the 7, 6.1/2 range if its well beat in. So I think my SNAP is around a 6-7 depending on how hard I throw. I�m getting my Snap ranges from looking at the Stability chart from Marshal Streets Disc Golf Chart. So for me If a Destroyer beats in and becomes a little less over stable then it becomes a perfect SNAP ranger for my distance shots with good control. The Boss�s are to over stable so my best Snap can�t throw them Strait and they just go left. I am liking the Nukes as their Snap range is a little less than the destroyer so they are flying very well for me.
I just thought it was cool to put these drivers in a Snap range. I know a lot of guys differ with their amount of SNAP. Some Hyzer flip, some release flat. And guys like Robbie can release hyzer and flip anny a predator�.anyways I know this is long but it was interesting to my brain.


What are you asking dave or are you just saying you like destroyers? You copied and pasted this from another spot you posted.

Hi Dave,

I have Millenium driver that needs some identification. It's orange Star like plastic with the big Millenium logo and looks like its marked G4 on the bottom along with weight of 175. It has the Rancho engraving of course but it's towards the outside. I'm not sure how or how long ago I acquired it. To me it looks and feels somewhat like a Sidewinder. Any ideas as to what it might be?

Thanks, Mike

Hey Dave, thanks for all your time. I was wondering if you plan on Making any CFR Champ Makos? This disc is great and I'd love one with just a little more stability. I prefer Champ plastic to everything else, especially Champ glow. If you could make some Champ glows I'd be in heaven! I know you said coyotes are a little more stable but I prefer the feel of the Mako. Thanks!

Its an Orion.

No I was just explaining how Snap can explain different drivers and shot selections...sorry If it bothers you.

No I was just explaining how Snap can explain different drivers and shot selections...sorry If it bothers you.

Your post has nothing to do with this thread.

Your post has nothing to do with this thread.

then I formally apologoze for interuptong your forum, I obvisoulsy got you off your topic. thanks for the heads up.
I just thought some would find this interesting, obvisously not.

then I formally apologoze for interuptong your forum, I obvisoulsy got you off your topic. thanks for the heads up.
I just thought some would find this interesting, obvisously not.

Im sure some,alot would just start a new thread this doesn't pretain to this thread he wasn't trying to rude or anything just an FYI is all

thanks man, I understand.
And I would totally Buy a Champ Mako and or a Glow Champ makko, as If we can make these a little more stable, I can use for more range of shots.
I will have to also say, that Im not one for using other disc as putters, but I have found alot of success with longer and up wind putting with the Mako !! seriously.
Its flight characteristics are very putter like so If likes to be Putt'd. Give it a try. I have banged some 50+ footers with the Makko when My putter didnt have the steam to get there.

Hi Dave,

I have Millenium driver that needs some identification. It's orange Star like plastic with the big Millenium logo and looks like its marked G4 on the bottom along with weight of 175. It has the Rancho engraving of course but it's towards the outside. I'm not sure how or how long ago I acquired it. To me it looks and feels somewhat like a Sidewinder. Any ideas as to what it might be?

Thanks, Mike

Original Orion LS
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Hey Dave, thanks for all your time. I was wondering if you plan on Making any CFR Champ Makos? This disc is great and I'd love one with just a little more stability. I prefer Champ plastic to everything else, especially Champ glow. If you could make some Champ glows I'd be in heaven! I know you said coyotes are a little more stable but I prefer the feel of the Mako. Thanks!

We will be starting the run of Champion Makos next week. Champion Glow is a possibility depending on time.
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Original Orion LS
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So proto run of these?

We will be starting the run of Champion Makos next week. Champion Glow is a possibility depending on time.
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good to hear, thanks dave. Are you planning to make these with a softer blend like the star? I think a plastic similar to the TB+ would be neat. Glow would be awesome too. Thanks for the rocs for the kids!

So proto run of these?

No, just the early run before there was name. Its the 4th Generation of LS.

good to hear, thanks dave. Are you planning to make these with a softer blend like the star? I think a plastic similar to the TB+ would be neat. Glow would be awesome too. Thanks for the rocs for the kids!

I'm not sure what the plastic will be like yet, but probably a little firmer than Star.

I like the new Echo stamps, it is nice not having to fight with the Echo sticker anymore- Thanks for that!

I retooled the old Aero mold, which was on its last legs. I knew what I wanted to make, (it was in the original patent drawings). I also knew that the disc would not be a particularly good golf disc. It was fairly over stable at low speeds and stable to slightly under at high speeds. I taught Sam Ferrans how to throw a high anhyzer, which was necessary for this type of disc. It took him about 2 weeks to get it down. He was the first to use this style of distance throwing. The disc was legal to 190, but we used a lighter disc at 176-177gms to get more carry and initial acceleration. First tournament, he set the record. He had thrown farther in practice though, so it wasn't a fluke. The mold didn't last too much longer.
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That's pretty cool. I assume that the previous distance records were set using a hyzer-flip type shot? It's hard to imagine that there was actually a point in disc golf that the anhyzer flex shot wasn't part of most pro's shot repertoire.

If you go back and look at some old pictures of people throwing from the late 80's, early 90's, their throwing technique is quite a bit different! Pretty funny to compare :)

Hey Dave,

Hope you don't mind fielding some forehand questions: I am pretty good for touch shots but my forehand drives lack the power I feel I should be able to get. My grip of the disc is at about 9 oclock as it passes my side and then between 7 and 8 oclock at release. When I read your chart it looks like the disc is at 6 oclock at release and the elbow / arm almost fully extended? I am releasing with my elbow near my side. My grip is uncomfortable with the driver lip edge pressing into my index finger above the bottom knuckle. should all of the grip pressure be at my thumb and finger pads? Your chart mentions the finger pad should be on the vertical wall of the rim... Should the finger pad be the last point of contact?

Hey Dave,

Hope you don't mind fielding some forehand questions: I am pretty good for touch shots but my forehand drives lack the power I feel I should be able to get. My grip of the disc is at about 9 oclock as it passes my side and then between 7 and 8 oclock at release. When I read your chart it looks like the disc is at 6 oclock at release and the elbow / arm almost fully extended? I am releasing with my elbow near my side. My grip is uncomfortable with the driver lip edge pressing into my index finger above the bottom knuckle. should all of the grip pressure be at my thumb and finger pads? Your chart mentions the finger pad should be on the vertical wall of the rim... Should the finger pad be the last point of contact?

l don't mind the question at all but i don't understand the clock reference. Do you mean where your thumb is pointing on a horizontal clock with 6:00 being straight at the target?

At any rate, yes your arm should be almost fully extended at the hit. And yes, the finger pad pressure and the thumb pad pressure should be controlling the hit. The middle finger pad and the thumb pad would be the last to touch the disc. The thumb controls the power of the grip.

The driver rim bottom edge should be between the fist knuckle and the second knuckle of the index. With older smaller rimmed discs, you could put it behind the fist knuckle, but with the newer wider rimmed discs, it would be very difficult. The point of the knuckle grip is to lock the disc in place, before rotation and snap. It is not a place the disc snaps from ultimately. This is akin to the baby and third fingers acting as a locking device for the backhand.

As an aside, Mike Berry throws excellent sidearm and has the rim bottom hitting between the distal and penultimate knuckles of the index. I tried that but couldn't make it work consistently for me.

Whipping as late as possible, and out in front of you, takes pressure off your rotator cuff and mandates a quick snap. The quick snap is very desirable for acceleration, and accuracy.

Ok I was out practicing my Drives across a field today and I was pondering Ideas about why we choose certain drivers and why so many different players vary with what they deem as the best driver:
We know about different styles of throws but I was thinking about how many different players vary when it comes to the amount of SNAP they put on a disc. Here an idea I have to explain why I choose my disc and maybe this will just be interesting to read, or perhaps help some players choose a good driver for the.???
For this exercise lest put �Snap� into a range.
Say a Valkyrie/Sidewinder would be 1 (least) and a Teebird / Tracker would be about 5, and a destroyer / Force would be about 7-8 and then a Boss 8, a Firebird/Max/Predator would be 10.
If you can SNAP a 10 Disc then Your name is Robbie Bratten, He can snap a drive with all his strength and a predator will fly strait for him. He has so much snap he can actually make a Pred anny when he release it strait. That�s definitely more snap than I have. Now people all differ in how much snapo they have. Some of my friends have to tape finger tips as they are snapping very hard with tight grips. And some guys just realease disc with spin and don�t snap so hard as they have loose grips. I would say im in the middle as I have to chalk or rub dirt on finger tips to get a smooth release and not hurt my fingers, my grip is pretty hard.
I would put my SNAP level at about a 7. To me I Snap hard and I like to released very Strait or flat. I can flip a 175 teebird If I put all my snap into a shot, where Robbie Bratten could snap over a Pred if he threw with same strength. So im learning why I love my certain drivers and others don�t have the same opinion. For me I am practicing with Champion Boss�s, Champion Destroyers, Star Destroyers, Pro Destroyers, ESP NUKES.
I am tweaking my shots and learning which is the best distance driver for My SNAP. I think a beat in Champion Destroyer ranges in the 7, 6.1/2 range if its well beat in. So I think my SNAP is around a 6-7 depending on how hard I throw. I�m getting my Snap ranges from looking at the Stability chart from Marshal Streets Disc Golf Chart. So for me If a Destroyer beats in and becomes a little less over stable then it becomes a perfect SNAP ranger for my distance shots with good control. The Boss�s are to over stable so my best Snap can�t throw them Strait and they just go left. I am liking the Nukes as their Snap range is a little less than the destroyer so they are flying very well for me.
I just thought it was cool to put these drivers in a Snap range. I know a lot of guys differ with their amount of SNAP. Some Hyzer flip, some release flat. And guys like Robbie can release hyzer and flip anny a predator�.anyways I know this is long but it was interesting to my brain.


just ask him out. what have you got to lose?

Lol.

If you go back and look at some old pictures of people throwing from the late 80's, early 90's, their throwing technique is quite a bit different! Pretty funny to compare :)

You got that right! Used to be when you had a course that had lots of left-to-right shots, it was a righty's course! And the farther you go back, the more it was, like with Midnight Flyers, beat in Midnight Flyers.

l don't mind the question at all but i don't understand the clock reference. Do you mean where your thumb is pointing on a horizontal clock with 6:00 being straight at the target?

I meant where my grip intersects the disc, and using reference to a horizontal clock. (taking the disc to be a clock with 12 being the forward edge and 6 being the trailing edge. When the disc passes my side my grip of the disc is at 9 oclock (wrist is cocked). at that point my thumb is pointing maybe at 2. At release in my present, no doubt flawed, technique my grip is at 7:30 (with thumb pointing at about 1:30). I think I have been trying to push the disc too far behind the first (aka: biggest) knuckle and that puts the knife edge into the web of my hand. With a lid that isn't so uncomfortable... I have a bad habit with backhand and forehand of feeling the (tight) grip pressure in the outer edge of the rim rather than the inner edge. i guess the focus should be on the inner rim(?) and with wider discs that is also a far more comfortable side to grip tightly. that would allow me not to .c.ock the wrist as much and so the grip would be more at 8 when it passes my side and more near 6 (thumb pointing at 12 or forward) upon release. hope this is somewhat clear... a looser grip will result too -- which may not be bad at all...


At any rate, yes your arm should be almost fully extended at the hit. And yes, the finger pad pressure and the thumb pad pressure should be controlling the hit. The middle finger pad and the thumb pad would be the last to touch the disc. The thumb controls the power of the grip.

The driver rim bottom edge should be between the fist knuckle and the second knuckle of the index. With older smaller rimmed discs, you could put it behind the fist knuckle, but with the newer wider rimmed discs, it would be very difficult. The point of the knuckle grip is to lock the disc in place, before rotation and snap. It is not a place the disc snaps from ultimately. This is akin to the baby and third fingers acting as a locking device for the backhand.

As an aside, Mike Berry throws excellent sidearm and has the rim bottom hitting between the distal and penultimate knuckles of the index. I tried that but couldn't make it work consistently for me.

Whipping as late as possible, and out in front of you, takes pressure off your rotator cuff and mandates a quick snap. The quick snap is very desirable for acceleration, and accuracy.

Any word on KC Pro Teebirds?

hey dave, what is Discmania's TD and MD2? what do the compare too? thanks

Any word on KC teebirds?

Hey Dave!

What can you tell me about this basket?

Was it made for 150 class original aviars, or can it be used for heavier putters?

Hey Dave!

What can you tell me about this basket?

Was it made for 150 class original aviars, or can it be used for heavier putters?

They have one of these at my kids school. My boy puts his class mates to shame on it. 1st time they played on it he was hitting putts from 20ft. His PE teacher says to him "your a natural at this" Next time they used it he brought his own putters in and was hitting even more. He tells his teacher "ya I've been playing since I was 5"

Hey Dave!

What can you tell me about this basket?

Was it made for 150 class original aviars, or can it be used for heavier putters?

We made those about 15-20 years ago. They were too expensive to injection mold as we had to farm it out to companies that use 600 ton machines.


Yes they can catch heavier putters too.

Great!

I just won it on ebay last night... I had never seen on of them before...

Thanks for the info!

I meant where my grip intersects the disc, and using reference to a horizontal clock. (taking the disc to be a clock with 12 being the forward edge and 6 being the trailing edge. When the disc passes my side my grip of the disc is at 9 oclock (wrist is cocked). at that point my thumb is pointing maybe at 2. At release in my present, no doubt flawed, technique my grip is at 7:30 (with thumb pointing at about 1:30). I think I have been trying to push the disc too far behind the first (aka: biggest) knuckle and that puts the knife edge into the web of my hand. With a lid that isn't so uncomfortable... I have a bad habit with backhand and forehand of feeling the (tight) grip pressure in the outer edge of the rim rather than the inner edge. i guess the focus should be on the inner rim(?) and with wider discs that is also a far more comfortable side to grip tightly. that would allow me not to .c.ock the wrist as much and so the grip would be more at 8 when it passes my side and more near 6 (thumb pointing at 12 or forward) upon release. hope this is somewhat clear... a looser grip will result too -- which may not be bad at all...

I think you have it. Definitely don't try to put the rim behind your fist knuckle. Instead, for big winged drivers, rest the bevel against the distal side of the fist knuckle. lt will fit there and allow a fairly tight grip when squeezed with the thumb. The base of your thumb will provide the tightness at this point. The pad of the thumb will control your snap and hit along with your stiff fingers with the pad/pads of your index and middle fingers into the wall of the rim.

hey dave, what is Discmania's TD and MD2? what do the compare too? thanks

The TD compares to a Valkyrie or Sidewinder. The MD2 is between a Shark and a Coyote, I think. It flies very straight and stable.

Any word on KC teebirds?

It was too stiff to run in normal KC. We are still looking for a substitute material.

It was too stiff to run in normal KC. We are still looking for a substitute material.

Stiff is good. NO?

Just glad to see there's some work being done on the KC Teebirds...whatever you come up with I'm sure will be great Dave. Thanks!

Hey Dave!

What can you tell me about this basket?

Was it made for 150 class original aviars, or can it be used for heavier putters?

Wow, I played on a course full of those at McQuarie University in Sydney, Australia 5 years ago.

The TD compares to a Valkyrie or Sidewinder. The MD2 is between a Shark and a Coyote, I think. It flies very straight and stable.

I would assume closer to a Sidewinder, since the CD sort of flies like a Viking/Valk? I tell people the CD is a faster, more sensitive TL type disc. Did they feel the CD didn't have enough turn?

Stiff is good. NO?

Not if they can't get it out of the mold.

Stiff is good. NO?

Stiff is not good according to PDGA tech standards.

I would assume closer to a Sidewinder, since the CD sort of flies like a Viking/Valk? I tell people the CD is a faster, more sensitive TL type disc. Did they feel the CD didn't have enough turn?


Yes, they wanted a disc with more turn than the CD.

Not if they can't get it out of the mold.

Just have them turn the mold upside down and slap it real hard.

works with glass ketchup bottles ;)

Great!

I just won it on ebay last night... I had never seen on of them before...

Thanks for the info!

I have one in my storage for looooonnnng time!

how much did you pay for it? I wonder

I have one in my storage for looooonnnng time!

how much did you pay for it? I wonder

What is it? with out having to dig through to find this post

this one

Hey Dave!

What can you tell me about this basket?

Was it made for 150 class original aviars, or can it be used for heavier putters?

page back, it has pix of the basket

Oh ya ya i seen one at my kids school LOL

Dave, thanks for the help. while it obviously can simplify getting the disc from point A to point B in certain situations, one additional reason i've decided to work on my forehand is it seems to offer better potential in bad traction situations and where inclines or obstacles make stepping into a shot problematic. do you think that is accurate?

Dave, thanks for the help. while it obviously can simplify getting the disc from point A to point B in certain situations, one additional reason i've decided to work on my forehand is it seems to offer better potential in bad traction situations and where inclines or obstacles make stepping into a shot problematic. do you think that is accurate?

Yes. The key is to keep your arm as loose as you can, your grip as tight as you can, and your hit as compact as possible, almost as if you are trying to spin it as fast as you can.
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i have a tendency to just want to put the middle finger pad on the rim wall and have the index finger next to the middle one ... am i better off with both pads on the rim? also, is the thumb pad location behind the finger-pad/rim junction, directly above it, or...? does the thumb set just inside the rim and point somewhat forward?

i have a tendency to just want to put the middle finger pad on the rim wall and have the index finger next to the middle one ... am i better off with both pads on the rim? also, is the thumb pad location behind the finger-pad/rim junction, directly above it, or...? does the thumb set just inside the rim and point somewhat forward?


There are different grips that have both pads on the wall. My grip is a stack with my middle finger on the wall and my index backing my middle finger. The thumb pad goes where it can depending on the relative length, I suppose. My thumb is relatively short compared to my fingers and my thumb pad tries to oppose the middle and index pads, but comes up slightly short. It is just short of being aligned with the side of the index pad. As with a backhand, the thumb controls the escape of, (or traps) the rim with as little or as much force needed for the shot. The fingers never let the disc go. The thumb controls when the disc rim may escape.

Dave,
Skip the Champ. Mako, go straight to the Champ GLOW Mako!

Hi Dave,

Whats your take on the Echo Dart?

Hi Dave,

Whats your take on the Echo Dart?

I didn't like the feel as well as the Star, so I really haven't thrown it enough to critique it or compare it.

Dear Dave -

I should probably wait until it arrives -

But I can't...

I recently picked up a Star Kite on a whim.
I love this disc. Great glide - Super Roller...

Well, at league last night it rolled into traffic and was run over.
So I went looking for a new one.

I found what was advertised as a CHAMPION Kite.

Couldn't believe my eyes.
Purchased it immediately.

I've enclosed a photo.

It seems to have that unmistakable Kite dome.

Is this a new addition?
CFR/TFR?

Or is this not a Kite at all?

A domey Coyote?

Like I said, I probably should've waited until I have it in hand.

Harry



http://i.rwpic.com/images/one19/championkite1.jpg

Dear Dave -

I should probably wait until it arrives -

But I can't...

I recently picked up a Star Kite on a whim.
I love this disc. Great glide - Super Roller...

Well, at league last night it rolled into traffic and was run over.
So I went looking for a new one.

I found what was advertised as a CHAMPION Kite.

Couldn't believe my eyes.
Purchased it immediately.

I've enclosed a photo.

It seems to have that unmistakable Kite dome.

Is this a new addition?
CFR/TFR?

Or is this not a Kite at all?

A domey Coyote?

Like I said, I probably should've waited until I have it in hand.

Harry



http://i.rwpic.com/images/one19/championkite1.jpg

Those were part of a test run of Champion Kites. SoCal used them for membership discs.

Hi, I've bought 3 aviars in the past few months and all are marked 175g, but way 3 grams less. 1 is the new kc pro another is r pro, and another dx that feels like r pro and 2 are 171.5 and 171.8, and the other is 172. As a buyer I can't even buy a disc without weighing it first personally to insure that its the marked weight lately. Is this an issue the seller or the manufacture should deal with?

I do know that Jason at Marshall Street now weighs all discs and ships you out the weight you want regardless of what is written on the disc, example I bought two 163 Star Roadrunners from Marshall Street recently one was marked 162 the other 164.

That's pretty cool he does that. Some people ...its a big deal to get the exact size and color ( myself included ) It screws with my head if I have the same disc but in a different weight of 2 or 3 gram variance. I know it's not much but.. I feel much better getting exact back ups...color included.

Guess you better hope he has an accurate scale.

Dave,

I thought I read somewhere in this thread that Innova has plans to release a new speed 13 driver, which would be more overstable than a boss. Are these plans still underway? Any tentative, 'hopeful' flight numbers? or still too early?

Also, I have heard the Discmania P2 referred to as a beadless KC Aviar. How similar are the molds?

Thank you in advance ...

Dave,

I thought I read somewhere in this thread that Innova has plans to release a new speed 13 driver, which would be more overstable than a boss. Are these plans still underway? Any tentative, 'hopeful' flight numbers? or still too early?

Also, I have heard the Discmania P2 referred to as a beadless KC Aviar. How similar are the molds?

Thank you in advance ...

It's still too early for the over stable Boss. We haven't even test shot it yet.

The P2 is the same driver mold as the KC, without the bead. The flight characteristic for the P2 is the same at high speed, but with less low speed over stability.

whats the best Katana....Are people jammin with the Pro, or Champ more. I like the idea of the Champ plastic cause it should hold its flight characteristics longer. (more durable). Is the champ still close to the under-stability as the Pro? I plan on picking up 1 or 2 this weekend.

whats the best Katana....Are people jammin with the Pro, or Champ more. I like the idea of the Champ plastic cause it should hold its flight characteristics longer. (more durable). Is the champ still close to the under-stability as the Pro? I plan on picking up 1 or 2 this weekend.

Too early to tell which will be more popular. The Pro is way ahead but it is the only one that has been released. The Star is a little more stable than the Pro and the Champion is a little more stable than the Star.
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For me personally, the Champ Katana flies like a longer Wraith, with the Star Katana flying like a longer slightly beat Wraith.

The Pro Katana straight out bombs with some stiff hyzer, or makes a great long distance turnover roller.

Several locals are buying up the Star and Champ Katanas to use in windy situations where their Pro Katanas would not suffice.

Hey Dave,

You know how the coyote and mako only differ by the rancho top and san marino top.

Have you thought about making a mid with the same bottom but with an ontario top?

Hey Dave,

You know how the coyote and mako only differ by the rancho top and san marino top.

Have you thought about making a mid with the same bottom but with an ontario top?

The Mako and Coyote have different tops and bottoms. They only share the bevel.

The Ontario top is the same as the San Marino top.
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I can throw my Champ Katana into a mild head wind and it still finishes on a hyzer. I have seen this from others I play with as well. The Pro just beats up to quick for my liking, but it bombs. Haven't thrown a Star but seen reall long flexing shots out of others hands. My Champ needs to hit a few more trees or some hard pack ground to get it beat. I get it out and it wants to break out to the right but it just dosen't yet. May be my arm is a bit hurt right now. Im liking the Stabilty of it for sure as the pro seems a bit squirly for me

nice, I will grap a few Champion ones this weekend....im excited about throwing it, also for pancakes and long rollers.

*Katana=sweet!

just a heads up on distance disc. I noticed this last weekend that most of the Big Arm pros threw 172 star and pro disc purley for distance contest. (Nikko wsa using Star destroyer and star boss at 172)So the 172 is a good wieght to pump out for Distance. Not necessarily all control for the course, but when you have the ceiling and room they were using these weights for looong distance.

Dave,

Would like to know your opinion about how and why golf discs become understable with the wear and tear of regular play. I have never really heard an "official" explanation from a major manufacturer, to as how, and why golf discs, lose their stability over time.

I have heard many peoples theories but they are just theories. Here are a few of them:

1) The bottom edge, when the top of the disc is facing up, becomes worn down from repeatedly hitting the ground and so the original shape of the mold becomes essentially "grinded" down.

MY THEORY: Some of the oldest discs in my bag (4-5yrs) exhibit no visible wear of the bottom shape of the mold even when held up to a brand new version of the same mold. Sure, the sharp flashing you get on some discs would be worn away but nothing like a 1/32" or more. This could be easily proven by taking a power sander to the bottom of a disc and doing a comparison, but that disc would be rendered illegal for sanctioned play.

2) The "Perfectness" of a discs original circular form has been diminished due to repeatedly hitting objects and the ground. Thus, the disc in essence, has become "wobbly" even though it's not necessarily visibly "tacoed."

MY THEORY: Again, many of my oldest most beat up premium plastic discs do not appear tacoed or visibly mishapen in any way yet they are totally more understable compared to the same mold / weight of an identical disc of the same run. In contrast, DX plastic which is clearly visibly tacoed or distorted, is clearly extremely understable compared to a new counterpart. It could be that a disc doesn't need to be visibly distorted to become more understable.

3) Alan Adler the inventor of the Aeroble Epic golf disc has a PhD in Aerodynamics. His instructional page explains his theory on why discs perform overstable or understable.

http://www.aerobie.com/Products/Details/EpicTuningArticle.htm

Adler seems to believe it's not dings and dents that cause a disc to fly understable, but rather the distance of the edge in relation to the far bottom edge of the disc. He explains that as a disc wears from hitting objects and ground, the edge is bent towards the bottom of the disc which you can replicate yourself by bending a disc while standing on the tee. You see Ken Climo doing this on a lot of Worlds DVD's.

MY THEORY: I'm not sure he's right. If he was right, then a "hook" or concave shaped disc like a Firebird or Teebird should be understable. Understable discs like the Stingray and RoadRunner should then have a hooked or convex edge to simulate what happens when the edge of the disc is bent toward the bottom of the disc.

It's possible that bending or tuning a disc in the method Adler describes is essentially doing the same thing as when a disc hit's objects and the ground, thus the disc becomes "imperfect" and wobbly / understable.

I would love to hear all the major manufacturers opinions on why a disc becomes more understable with normal wear and tear. Please educate us on this topic as it also relates to why 2 different runs of the same mold / same plastic, can be so amazingly different in stability even though they should have been cast by the exact same mold.

a disc can lose stability through wear or through rim bending. The wear factor is not a consistent factor and depends on the original shape of the disc. A frisbee shaped disc will be much more affected by wear on the bottom edge than a Roc, but a Roc will be affected over time too.

Bending or tacoing a disc will not necessarily change the stability either. Discs with wide rims are more vulnerable to having their long noses bent, and it is this, rather than the over all bent or straight shape of the entire disc that causes turn over.

Do you feel the same way about putters?

I have a SS Magic I rolled into a ball and stuffed into my pocket. For some reason, it never found the garbage. I started messing around with it as a joke, but noticed that it had totally different stability, and now it doesnt want to stay flipped over. I can throw it nose up on ahny and it will drop back, which before was impossible for this disc.

Why would such a flippy disc get so much more overstable?

I have a similar experience with doggie discs. I typically use light Aviar P&As for my pup, and they get flippier & flippier for a while as their rims become more & more toothmarked. Then, all of a sudden, they reach some sort of breaking point & become MAD overstable, even thrown hard, nose up, and anhyzer. Always perplexed me…

Do you feel the same way about putters?

I have a SS Magic I rolled into a ball and stuffed into my pocket. For some reason, it never found the garbage. I started messing around with it as a joke, but noticed that it had totally different stability, and now it doesnt want to stay flipped over. I can throw it nose up on ahny and it will drop back, which before was impossible for this disc.

Why would such a flippy disc get so much more overstable?

Yes, putters are the same. There is something that is causing a new air pressure vector. That can come from several places. Excessively flattened disc can appear to be very over stable or under stable depending on how they were flattened and what speed they are thrown at.

Hi Dave,

A while back I came across an X-out disc that was marked "LX" on the underside. It was light - 143g - and nice and gummy. What was this disc? I lost the original and now would like to find replacements!!

Thanks!!!

Hey Dave ,

Do you happen to know if these Vipers are made in Champion Plastic ?

Tried to post answers but couldn't. Don't remember LX. Probably a Leopard variant or Proto for JLS or Ace.
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Donny,

Those were made before high tech plastic. Only DX.
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Is there multiple Viper molds, and if so, which would be found in Champion plastic? Thanks Dave.

Is there multiple Viper molds, and if so, which would be found in Champion plastic? Thanks Dave.

There have been two retools of the same mold. Only the last version of the three Vipers was shot in Champion as far as I know, but Mark Molnar says we have never shot the regular version in Champion.

There is an X version mold for fundraising shot in Champion.

www.discgolfsweden.se has the definitive information

Tried to post answers but couldn't. Don't remember LX. Probably a Leopard variant or Proto for JLS or Ace.
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It was definitely Leopard-ish. I picked it up from Emerald Isle's new X-out box in early 2007. If anyone comes across more while sweeping up in the warehouse, I'd love to get my hands on them.

Dave,
MY THEORY: I'm not sure he's right. If he was right, then a "hook" or concave shaped disc like a Firebird or Teebird should be understable. Understable discs like the Stingray and RoadRunner should then have a hooked or convex edge to simulate what happens when the edge of the disc is bent toward the bottom of the disc.


No... I think Adler's right. I'm not sure why you think the concave wing should "simulate" what happens when the disc is bent towards the bottom exactly... It's not about that. It's about how the air flows over it, not about the curvature.

Lay a firebird down on a table next to a Roadrunner (or better yet a Katana.) The edge of the firebird is so much higher that you can actually slide a Katana UNDERNEATH the firebird without picking it up.

Like I said, it's not so much about the curvature of the wing. It's about how much air is flowing over the top, vs. the bottom of the disc and how much drag it causes.

I'd always wondered why some of my Buzzzs were more stable than others even though they mostly looked the same. Some of my Buzzzs that started out really stable were completely beat to crap and had some high speed turn would retain their fade. After I read the Adler article I layed them all on a table and looked at the height to the edge. If you put them in order of edge height, it was the same as stability order. 100% accurate predictor.

I do think he's not quite right about the surface features though. Discs with scratched up surfaces definitely have less HSS, but LSS seems mostly unaffected. I know this because I've taken a DX Leopard thrown it, scratched it with a rock, thrown it, scratched it with a rock, etc... and watched it develop high speed turn over the course of 20 minutes.

and I love the X Version oif Vipers in Champion. Wow they are awesome disc. Keep em coming please.

I recently acquired this disc and would like to know a bit about its history...
Why do they call it a 'Night Shift' Boss?
How many were made and is there anything unique about the plastic itself, or is it regular Star plastic?

http://i952.photobucket.com/albums/ae7/Webslinger_WDGC/Disc%20Pictures/th_0423001230.jpg (http://s952.photobucket.com/albums/ae7/Webslinger_WDGC/Disc%20Pictures/?action=view&current=0423001230.jpg)

hey Dave-
are all of the 5x jk aviars the same firmness, or are there variations in flexibility among the discs that were stamped "5x"?
thanks

I love the XD. When I first started throwing the XD for approach and putting my game stepped up a notch and I credit it to the XD. I've got a Star XD 175 as my chief putter and a stack of DX XDs at home for practice.

I recently picked up two of the gummy XDs from the Japan Open, one R-Pro and one Champion. The gummy material is great for the XD, really easy to throw and they stop on a dime. What are the chances that we'll see these discs again?

Also, I heard the Star XD is no longer part of the CFR list - what gives? Do I need to start buying up Star XDs on Ebay just in case???

I can't live without this disc. :)

I love the XD. When I first started throwing the XD for approach and putting my game stepped up a notch and I credit it to the XD. I've got a Star XD 175 as my chief putter and a stack of DX XDs at home for practice.

I recently picked up two of the gummy XDs from the Japan Open, one R-Pro and one Champion. The gummy material is great for the XD, really easy to throw and they stop on a dime. What are the chances that we'll see these discs again?

Also, I heard the Star XD is no longer part of the CFR list - what gives? Do I need to start buying up Star XDs on Ebay just in case???

I can't live without this disc. :)

No worries. Although the XD is not a priority, it is a staple disc and will remain in inventory for a long time. We will do the R-Pro gummies again and the Stars too but I don't know the time frame.

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I recently acquired this disc and would like to know a bit about its history...
Why do they call it a 'Night Shift' Boss?
How many were made and is there anything unique about the plastic itself, or is it regular Star plastic?

http://i952.photobucket.com/albums/ae7/Webslinger_WDGC/Disc%20Pictures/th_0423001230.jpg (http://s952.photobucket.com/albums/ae7/Webslinger_WDGC/Disc%20Pictures/?action=view&current=0423001230.jpg)

If indeed it is a Nightshift Boss, it will be Star and should be extra stable. It is not regular Star plastic.

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hey Dave-
are all of the 5x jk aviars the same firmness, or are there variations in flexibility among the discs that were stamped "5x"?
thanks

There are multiple gradations of firmness or softness associated with the 5x JKs. We have a better opportunity now to consistently make them softer, as we have repaired the mold.
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i like the firmer versions of the jk. what do you suggest i look for? certain colors? with or without the flight ratings?

The 4x JK Aviars were firmer.

i like the firmer versions of the jk. what do you suggest i look for? certain colors? with or without the flight ratings?

i like the firmer ones too. I got a bunch of the new ones with flight numbers and they are too soft, feels like Rpro plasic. Ill probably give them away and keep looking for some of the older 5x

I recently acquired this disc and would like to know a bit about its history...
Why do they call it a 'Night Shift' Boss?
How many were made and is there anything unique about the plastic itself, or is it regular Star plastic?

http://i952.photobucket.com/albums/ae7/Webslinger_WDGC/Disc%20Pictures/th_0423001230.jpg (http://s952.photobucket.com/albums/ae7/Webslinger_WDGC/Disc%20Pictures/?action=view&current=0423001230.jpg)


It is a different bland of "stabilized" star plastic. Not sure about the bosses, but there were around 200 of the destroyers made. The destroyer version is hands down the best golf distance driver I have thrown in 20 years of playing. Literally took 4 discs out of my bag. Faster, more stable, ultra controllable and really predictable in the wind, drool
Dont know about the bosses though as that mold needs too much room to work for a golf course and I throw a destroyer further.

I know alot of the boss throwers love those if they can find them.

....contents will be revealed next month .... ;-D

I think there are a wide range in each run of JKs. I have JK 4x's that are indistinguishable from R-Pro and 5x's that are only slightly softer than KC Aviars.

I haven't had an ace for a year or so and have had very few anyway over the last few years, and I got an ace yesterday at Yucaipa Regional. The notable part of this is that it was a scoobie skip ace. I rarely throw this shot any more, but it paid off when I did.

Congrats on your ace Dave! Last ace I had was July 2009 after installing 3 new baskets at Alexandria DGC, 1st throw Hole #1.

Loving the Katana, the disc just rips down the fairway. When will the Star and Champ models be ready for regular production? There is a great demand here in the Lehigh Valley. Thanks!

Matt LaCourte

I haven't had an ace for a year or so and have had very few anyway over the last few years, and I got an ace yesterday at Yucaipa Regional. The notable part of this is that it was a scoobie skip ace. I rarely throw this shot any more, but it paid off when I did.

Which hole? #4?

Congrats on your ace Dave! Last ace I had was July 2009 after installing 3 new baskets at Alexandria DGC, 1st throw Hole #1.

Loving the Katana, the disc just rips down the fairway. When will the Star and Champ models be ready for regular production? There is a great demand here in the Lehigh Valley. Thanks!

Matt LaCourte

Thanks Matt.

Star Katanas are scheduled for release next Monday. Champ is being held back for fund raising for now.

Which hole? #4?

#5. Probably the only one I could reach with a scoobie.

#5. Probably the only one I could reach with a scoobie.

what is a scoobie?

It is a different bland of "stabilized" star plastic. Not sure about the bosses, but there were around 200 of the destroyers made. The destroyer version is hands down the best golf distance driver I have thrown in 20 years of playing. Literally took 4 discs out of my bag. Faster, more stable, ultra controllable and really predictable in the wind, drool
Dont know about the bosses though as that mold needs too much room to work for a golf course and I throw a destroyer further.

I know alot of the boss throwers love those if they can find them.

This is very dis-heartening. :(

Hope I become one of the lucky few

Dave, I came across a grey Star TeeBird the other day. The only stamp on it is the basic Innova logo you see on every disc, but written underneath where the mold was injected it says SBT, which I assume is Special Blend TeeBird. Can you give me any information on any Special Blend TeeBirds that were run? I thought only the Orc was Special Blend.

what is a scoobie?

A scoobie has similar action to a hook thumber, but has more control. It's held with a back hand power grip. Instead of winding up counter clock for a right hander, you wind up clockwise and hold the disc behind your right ear in a similar wrist and hand position as the backhand. The arm motion is similar to a hook thumb UD, but the back of the hand leads, instead of the front.

This is a staple shot for DDC (double disc court)
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Dave, I came across a grey Star TeeBird the other day. The only stamp on it is the basic Innova logo you see on every disc, but written underneath where the mold was injected it says SBT, which I assume is Special Blend TeeBird. Can you give me any information on any Special Blend TeeBirds that were run? I thought only the Orc was Special Blend.

I don't remember the specifics as to weights and colors, but we have run some. Blue is all I remember in heavy weights.
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re aviars:
i like softer/tackier than kc's, but not super soft. there should be something in the middle, like say have the 5x's be like the 4x's, and have the r-pro be super soft.

Dave, I came across a grey Star TeeBird the other day. The only stamp on it is the basic Innova logo you see on every disc, but written underneath where the mold was injected it says SBT, which I assume is Special Blend TeeBird. Can you give me any information on any Special Blend TeeBirds that were run? I thought only the Orc was Special Blend.

There is some good info on the SB Teebirds on the Collecting Discs thread.

re aviars:
i like softer/tackier than kc's, but not super soft. there should be something in the middle, like say have the 5x's be like the 4x's, and have the r-pro be super soft.

You really need to get some JK Prototypes. Fairly firm disc, but the plastic has a grippy texture.

3X JKs have a little more grip to them, but they are softer too.

Dave,
I bought a 172g Star Destroyer that is SUPER stable a couple weeks ago, and it's marked S/DS, instead of the regular hand drawn star/D. I know that Star Destroyers generally start out pretty stable, but this thing is crazy. Any idea why? It's blue, domey, and almost seems to have a nipple on top.

I've got one also like that, blue with slight white marbled plastic. It's 172g and bottom stamped. Looks similar to the night shift Destroyers that I have. And likely flies like them. Over stable!

Dave,
I bought a 172g Star Destroyer that is SUPER stable a couple weeks ago, and it's marked S/DS, instead of the regular hand drawn star/D. I know that Star Destroyers generally start out pretty stable, but this thing is crazy. Any idea why? It's blue, domey, and almost seems to have a nipple on top.

Don't really know why, but most likely it is a night shift Destroyer not properly marked. Star is generally supposed to be a -1 high speed for 400ft throws.

There are multiple gradations of firmness or softness associated with the 5x JKs. We have a better opportunity now to consistently make them softer, as we have repaired the mold.
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softer would be welcomed!

I've got one also like that, blue with slight white marbled plastic. It's 172g and bottom stamped. Looks similar to the night shift Destroyers that I have. And likely flies like them. Over stable!

Wow, if Daves response is right you are one lucky person. As soon as I got my NS I ravaged through the 100,000 discs at Clearwater Disc golf Store looking for more or mis stamps. I did find one bottom stamped 172 that felt eerily similar. Sounds like you may have scored one for a discounted price, LUCKY!!! but those are probably going to be to stable for you, so you can send them on vacation to Florida, please ;)

Anybody have a comparison between the NS and the Echostar or the glow champs? I imagine I might break in the NS in the next few decades and will need more

Is there a reason why Night Shift plastic isn't produced more? Do you have limited amounts of that plastic?
Thanks!

I think NS would look good in the TFR lineup:)

Wow, if Daves response is right you are one lucky person. As soon as I got my NS I ravaged through the 100,000 discs at Clearwater Disc golf Store looking for more or mis stamps. I did find one bottom stamped 172 that felt eerily similar. Sounds like you may have scored one for a discounted price, LUCKY!!! but those are probably going to be to stable for you, so you can send them on vacation to Florida, please ;)

Anybody have a comparison between the NS and the Echostar or the glow champs? I imagine I might break in the NS in the next few decades and will need more

Mine is a stock-stamped disc. I have not thrown a NS yet, but I have a friend who swears by the Echo. I really like the first run stars, and got lucky when I found a stash for $20 a piece. I also dig the older run of Echo Xcals, from 2008 or so, real grippy/fast.

I'd heard that the C-PD is planned to go to regular production. Do you know what the time frame for regular run C-PDs is? Also, would we be able to count on the same stability as the CFR run?

anyone thrown the echo star mako? How does it compare to the first runs and regular runs?

Is there a reason why Night Shift plastic isn't produced more? Do you have limited amounts of that plastic?
Thanks!

I think NS would look good in the TFR lineup:)

Night Shift doesn't fit in with our regular line up. Usually the Champion plastic is expected to be a little more over stable than the Star.

However, putting some NS in the TFR might be a good idea and appropriate for that demographic.

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I'd heard that the C-PD is planned to go to regular production. Do you know what the time frame for regular run C-PDs is? Also, would we be able to count on the same stability as the CFR run?

C-PD is just CFR for now, but we would like to get it into the line-up when we can. Probably not going to happen this season. Same stability is anticipated.
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Hey Dave, what discs do you recommend for the hyzer flip shot and would a champion plastic work or are they too stable?

I don't remember the specifics as to weights and colors, but we have run some. Blue is all I remember in heavy weights.
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At one point i had 3 Special Blend Teebirds.

1 white with black swoosh logo

1 blue with red swoosh logo

1 grey with black swoosh logo

All were max weight

Hey Dave, what discs do you recommend for the hyzer flip shot and would a champion plastic work or are they too stable?

Can't really answer that question without knowing how much power you have and what your preferred style is.

Any unstable disc will do it depending on power, release angle, and angle of attack. Higher power players need more stable discs for longer distances and accuracy, but could still use flippier discs if they know how to control them.

Champion plastic will work as well as any other. Domier discs work better for me as they tend to take a longer time coming back after they have flipped.

For medium power ranges like mine (350-450), Sidewinders and Roadrunner work well. Pro Wraiths and Katanas can work too, but I don't particularly like Pro plastic. If I am feeling whimpy, I can always use an R-Pro Boss to go long with a hyzer flip. If I am feeling a little froggy, I can use a Pro Boss, or Star Katana for a long drive thrill.
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Dave,

I just ordered some Champion Mako X-Outs from Discgolfvalues.com. I was curious if you had a chance to throw them and wanted to know how they turned out compared to their star counterparts(domey/flat/more stable/etc.)

Thanks,
-ZJ

For medium power ranges like mine (350-450)

LOL - For a SGM, I wouldn't say that is "medium" power, I would say that it is darn good power!

Dave,

I just ordered some Champion Mako X-Outs from Discgolfvalues.com. I was curious if you had a chance to throw them and wanted to know how they turned out compared to their star counterparts(domey/flat/more stable/etc.)

Thanks,
-ZJ

Sorry, if I did, I don't remember the exact results. We expected them to be a little more stable than the Star. My only real experience has been with the Star.

hey Dave-
do the star katanas get more overstable as they get 168 or lower? if so, how low should one go in the star katana and boss to get that overstability of the starlite process?
thanks

hey Dave-
do the star katanas get more overstable as they get 168 or lower? if so, how low should one go in the star katana and boss to get that overstability of the starlite process?
thanks

We really haven't had an opportunity to do any Starlite in Star Katanas, so I don't know about the stability. The Boss is likely to be Starlite at 165-167gms.
Starlite Katanas would likely be in the high 50s to low 60s.

Hi Dave - I really like light, gummy drivers - they seem to hyzer flip nicely and carry well for me. One thing I have noticed is that in most cases these discs have very flat tops. Case in point - a 150g Champion Orc I am looking at right now has no noticeable dome in the flight plate. It has a flat, almost sunken top. Do you think this flat top will make the disc more stable than one would expect it to be, given the light weight?

Thanks, as always.

If I may, rizbee: I have found those flat-to-concave-topped 150g gummies to be somewhat more overstable than would be expected for their mold & weight. This is particularly apparent in Teebirds, Vikings, & Beasts. Same trait is present (to a somewhat lesser extent) in those Orcs, which you will love, BTW, making them pretty darned straight flyers start to finish.

Hi Dave - I really like light, gummy drivers - they seem to hyzer flip nicely and carry well for me. One thing I have noticed is that in most cases these discs have very flat tops. Case in point - a 150g Champion Orc I am looking at right now has no noticeable dome in the flight plate. It has a flat, almost sunken top. Do you think this flat top will make the disc more stable than one would expect it to be, given the light weight?

Thanks, as always.

The high speed stability can't accurately be predicted by the dome or lack thereof. However, you can predict that the low speed over stability will be
exaggerated. Furthermore, there is some predictive correlation with respect to the flatter tops in one model of one material to be more high speed stable. But again, is not a reliable predictor.

Having spewed all this drivel, I would personally look for a medium dome. On another note: gummy plastic is particularly difficult to maintain consistency with.

speaking of dome/no dome tops... what was the deal with zipper-tops? i was going through my box-o-goodies that have been retired and found a 160-something zipper-top valk.
did that type of top do anything different for the disc? was it to hard to keep making?

speaking of dome/no dome tops... what was the deal with zipper-tops? i was going through my box-o-goodies that have been retired and found a 160-something zipper-top valk.
did that type of top do anything different for the disc? was it to hard to keep making?

It has no effect on flight, but sometimes feels better in the hand. It is an artifact of new molds sometimes. It goes away after one or two runs.

Hey Dave;

Are there any plans to ever make, or have yall ever made Skeeters in Champion plastic? I have seen some X-outs but am skeptical.

Hey Dave;

Are there any plans to ever make, or have yall ever made Skeeters in Champion plastic? I have seen some X-outs but am skeptical.

Skeeters come in DX, R-Pro, and Star as regular offerings. We have not made any regular runs in Champion, but from my experience with Skeeters, I think that would be a good disc. It would probably be a tad bit more high speed stable. Molding time and opportunity is a problem for us right now, but I can see that happening in the future.

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Are Champion Makos only Fundraiser Discs ?

Are Champion Makos only Fundraiser Discs ?

Not sure if they are CFR only or TFR and custom stamping, but they are not mainstream.

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It would probably be a tad bit more high speed stable.
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Yes, yes exactly what i was thinking. :D I love my star and dx but not keen on R-Pro.

speaking of dome/no dome tops... what was the deal with zipper-tops? i was going through my box-o-goodies that have been retired and found a 160-something zipper-top valk.
did that type of top do anything different for the disc? was it to hard to keep making?

What is a 'zipper-top'? First time I have heard that term. Any pics?

What is a 'zipper-top'? First time I have heard that term. Any pics?

They have a faint vinyl record look and feel.

If I may, rizbee: I have found those flat-to-concave-topped 150g gummies to be somewhat more overstable than would be expected for their mold & weight. This is particularly apparent in Teebirds, Vikings, & Beasts. Same trait is present (to a somewhat lesser extent) in those Orcs, which you will love, BTW, making them pretty darned straight flyers start to finish.

Ray - Yes, that 150g gummy Orc is da bomb! Hyzer-flips up to a remarkably straight flight. My fellow competitiors will be seeing a lot of it this weekend. I haven't had a chance to try out the others, but will over the next few weeks.

Dave - I would agree that one characteristic of the low-weight, flat-top gummy drivers I have thrown is exaggerated low-speed stability. People that I play with often comment on just that trait of the 150g gummy Sidewinder I throw. It's too bad they aren't consistent molders, but I'm happy to pick over the X-outs!

Are the new r pro Rocs the regular rancho mold or something else? Thanks

They have a faint vinyl record look and feel.

yeah and if you run your nail across the top you get a zipper sound.

have any of the newer discs that were first/second runs had the zipper top? maybe that could be something for collectors to look for.

Are the new r pro Rocs the regular rancho mold or something else? Thanks

I believe they were made with the Rancho + mold.
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yeah and if you run your nail across the top you get a zipper sound.

have any of the newer discs that were first/second runs had the zipper top? maybe that could be something for collectors to look for.

Very few of the newer molds, but I do recall some that didn't last through the first run.

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yeah and if you run your nail across the top you get a zipper sound.

have any of the newer discs that were first/second runs had the zipper top? maybe that could be something for collectors to look for.

The Tee-Rex had this and I find they where more overstable then the ones with out it. The ones with the Big Star Stamp and the ones that where stamped with Tee-Rex not Teerex had the "record top".

Dave,
Did the Teerex get retooled after the 1st runs? They seem not so overstable as the 1st ones. They seem to fly like longer faster Teebird or Eagle IMO.

The Tee-Rex had this and I find they where more overstable then the ones with out it. The ones with the Big Star Stamp and the ones that where stamped with Tee-Rex not Teerex had the "record top".

Dave,
Did the Teerex get retooled after the 1st runs? They seem not so overstable as the 1st ones. They seem to fly like longer faster Teebird or Eagle IMO.

The TeeRex got retooled twice after we found a defective duplicate part that wasn't a duplicate. It was really only the 2nd and 3rd runs that weren't quite as stable as they should have been. Subsequent runs with the new part, seem fine. That same defective part had been screwing with Vikings for a while too. We got that fixed too.
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They have a faint vinyl record look and feel.

My first and ONLY ace is with a "zipper-top" Valkyrie. I just pulled it down off the wall to make that cool sound. Mine is a JK 4x Champion tie-dye valkyrie.

I had a couple of blood red champ Valks that made that zipper sound. They were some of the 1st discs I ever bought.

Dave,

I think it's really cool that you made some "older" models in the Champion Glow lineup for CFR. The Gazelles and Leopards are great discs, and under-appreciated by some disc golfers today. I think another cool disc to see in the Champion Glow lineup would be the Cheetah. Would that be a possibility?

Thanks for your time,

Chris Tyler

Dave,

I think it's really cool that you made some "older" models in the Champion Glow lineup for CFR. The Gazelles and Leopards are great discs, and under-appreciated by some disc golfers today. I think another cool disc to see in the Champion Glow lineup would be the Cheetah. Would that be a possibility?

Thanks for your time,

Chris Tyler

That would be a possibility. But right now, scheduling would be difficult at best.

Dave -
i love the flights of my dx rocs, i carry 3-4 in different stages of wear, but am not as into the grip or feel of the mold. I love the feel of the buzz, but it is not quite stable enough for my taste. Can you suggest a dx-plastic replacement for the roc? I love the feel of the cro. would this work?

That would be a possibility. But right now, scheduling would be difficult at best.

Ya the cheetah would be a very sweet disc to come back in Champ plastic.

Dave -
i love the flights of my dx rocs, i carry 3-4 in different stages of wear, but am not as into the grip or feel of the mold. I love the feel of the buzz, but it is not quite stable enough for my taste. Can you suggest a dx-plastic replacement for the roc? I love the feel of the cro. would this work?

Yes, the Cro would be a suitable replacement, but in a smaller, quicker, less glidey alternative. Another more direct replacement would be the DX Shark. Another possible replacement would be the latest run of R-Pro Rocs in the + mold.
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Dave,

Any plans to produce regular runs of the echo star groove?

And also, thank you for the star mako. For me it flies more stable than the coyote in 180g. great replacement for an old ms aurora or beat up kc pro roc

Dave
I've had these in my collection for a decade and the 'Tank' thread made me open the box.
Maybe you can tell me the story of the one in the upper left. It has the same marking, a "T" , but hotstamp says
Ching Powerline ...Putter Approach [USG-0-] Super Stable Chain Crusher
and has the same dome as #119 & #120. The 3 Y2K Special Edition have a very flat top.

Also a question about the very early runs of the Omega Supersoft. The 1.2, 1.3, 1.4 and a few other runs were a real 'pebbly' plastic. What is the story and is that effect reproducible?

As always, Thanks for your time

http://lakefrontdiscgolf.com/Lakefront%20DGC%20Root%20Folder/Images/MiscImages/Tank%20Collection.jpg

Also a question about the very early runs of the Omega Supersoft. The 1.2, 1.3, 1.4 and a few other runs were a real 'pebbly' plastic. What is the story and is that effect reproducible?

Some SE Rhynos & supersoft Polecats had that same feeling. Vibram is experimenting with a similar effect by including ground rubber bits in its pre-proto X-Link Soft Eco material. It feels extremely nice.

you know what would be awesome???????

If you made a run of CFR Griffins!!!!!!! Would be sooooo sweet. How sick would those be? Come on, you know you want to. What do I need to do to have this happen?

Dave,

Any plans to produce regular runs of the echo star groove?

And also, thank you for the star mako. For me it flies more stable than the coyote in 180g. great replacement for an old ms aurora or beat up kc pro roc

You're welcome, for the Mako.

We do plan to make some Echo Star Grooves, but can't fit it in the schedule right now. Might have to wait 'til later this year.

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Dave
I've had these in my collection for a decade and the 'Tank' thread made me open the box.
Maybe you can tell me the story of the one in the upper left. It has the same marking, a "T" , but hotstamp says
Ching Powerline ...Putter Approach [USG-0-] Super Stable Chain Crusher
and has the same dome as #119 & #120. The 3 Y2K Special Edition have a very flat top.

Also a question about the very early runs of the Omega Supersoft. The 1.2, 1.3, 1.4 and a few other runs were a real 'pebbly' plastic. What is the story and is that effect reproducible?

As always, Thanks for your time

http://lakefrontdiscgolf.com/Lakefront%20DGC%20Root%20Folder/Images/MiscImages/Tank%20Collection.jpg

Sorry, I can't tell you anything about the hot stamps. I rarely see anything with a stamp any more. The dome on the tank will change with the material vintage and run. Generally the softer ones have lower domes.

We have been toying with the idea of bringing the Tank back. Always thought it was a good disc.

The gritty effect of the early Super Softs was just an artifact of the batch of material we were running at the time. It happens on occasion, but it's serendipitous when it does. I do have a theory, but haven't tested it as yet.
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Ya bring the Tank back please the Y2K edition ones would be sweet

oh gawd yes. please bring the tank back!

Nice new website! Thanks for all you do and for taking the time to answer all of our questions.

Site looks nice Dave. Much easier to navigate. Now if we can only get a spot on the site where users can vote on which old mold to bring back into production or what disc to run in a different type of plastic.

Site looks nice Dave. Much easier to navigate. Now if we can only get a spot on the site where users can vote on which old mold to bring back into production or what disc to run in a different type of plastic.

That might be a good idea. Thank you.
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so dave,there seems to be some questioning about the current run of dx rocs out right now. are they the roc + mold? does this mean the rancho mold is gonna be replaced by the roc +? please say it isnt so!!!

so dave,there seems to be some questioning about the current run of dx rocs out right now. are they the roc + mold? does this mean the rancho mold is gonna be replaced by the roc +? please say it isnt so!!!

It isn't so. The + mold is only for certain Rocs like the R-Pro. I am not sure if we have run any DX. We did try it in Champion, and it was fine. The + mold has limited uses, but is helpful for certain type discs.
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Dave, here's the dx Roc in question

http://i366.photobucket.com/albums/oo108/JB707/0c31ac2d.jpg
http://i366.photobucket.com/albums/oo108/JB707/58097fda.jpg

i would say from the photos that the question has been both asked and answered.

I hope those Plus + rims feel better in your hand than they do in mine.

Actually, the rim in those pictures looks kinda slanted, which is what my friend who took these pics said as well. I can't confirm, since he lives in Cali and I live in KC, but he's felt enough Rocs to know something was different.

No, the + rim does not feel good in my hands. I prefer the standard Rancho in dx.

Actually, the rim in those pictures looks kinda slanted, which is what my friend who took these pics said as well. I can't confirm, since he lives in Cali and I live in KC, but he's felt enough Rocs to know something was different.

No, the + rim does not feel good in my hands. I prefer the standard Rancho in dx.

It certainly looks like an R-Pro Roc with a DX stamp. I will investigate tomorrow. It wouldn't be the first time, the wrong hot stamps were put on the wrong discs. Thank you for bringing it to my attention.

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The R-Pro comes with several putters and will eventually come with all putters including the P2. Right now the P2 plastic, while grippy is not nearly as soft as the JK. The Omega is a small bead. Depending on your putting style, you may be better off with an Omega, an R-Pro Aviar, or an R-Pro Dart. These all fly straighter at low speeds. If you're a hyzer putter or pitch putter, you should probably stick to what you have and putt with more authority. If you are a flat fly putter, you could definitely benefit from a change or make sure your JK is beat up good. We have made Polecats in soft plastic as a test run and will have R-Pro in the future. I wouldn't recommend you switch to a Polecat unless you already like the grip. It's a significant grip change.

I first made the switch to an R-Pro Aviar and was very satisfied with the putt but didn't like the drive or approach as, once broken in, it was not stable enough in the wind. Next stop was the P2. The P2 was definitely better for my style flat putting, than the JK, and was very reliable in the wind for putting or driving. When we came out with the R-Pro Dart, I couldn't not try it as the soft grippy plastic felt really good and my putting improved significantly. However, the same problem occurred with my R-Pro Dart as did with the R-Pro Aviar. It became unreliable in the wind once broken in significantly. The Star Dart solved everything for me. It was very straight and reliable in the wind and takes a long time to beat up. The grip is not as good as a brand new R-Pro, but over time, it is just as good. Once the R-Pro gets a bit dirty it loses it's high tack. Of course, if you wash it, the tack returns, but that is a pain. Star is much easier to clean with a windex wipe.

On the other hand. If your putting problem is your putting and not your putter, any change in putters could bring some improvement as it will tend to make you focus better on the new piece of plastic in your hand. With better focus on the disc in hand, you will get better results any way.

so i finally made a switch. i chose the Glow Aviar, mainly because i like the minimalist stamp and because i think maybe the buttery soft JK's i love are better suited for my 300 ft and in drives and approaches than they are for my flat putts.

what if any differences might i expect from the glow DX plastic in terms of stability? With Champ glow i have noted increased stability -- is the same true of glow DX?

so i finally made a switch. i chose the Glow Aviar, mainly because i like the minimalist stamp and because i think maybe the buttery soft JK's i love are better suited for my 300 ft and in drives and approaches than they are for my flat putts.

what if any differences might i expect from the glow DX plastic in terms of stability? With Champ glow i have noted increased stability -- is the same true of glow DX?

JKs are excellent for drives, approaches and hyzer putts. They do fall down a bit for flat putts as they have a tendency to saw off left for flats that are thrown without good force.

I wish I could answer your question directly about the stability of Glo DX vs regular DX, but I can't. Indirectly, I hear they are a bit more stable.

I still think a better transition and maybe permanent stop for you would be a P2. Just as good at drives and maybe better at approaches than a JK, it is definitely better at flat putts.
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You say that the JK is good for hyzer putts, does this mean that an over-stable putter is better for a hyzer style putter? Or is a straighter putter like an Aviar P&A or Dart better for a hyzer putter? (Or does it just boil down to personal preference?)

Thanks

JKs are excellent for drives, approaches and hyzer putts. They do fall down a bit for flat putts as they have a tendency to saw off left for flats that are thrown without good force.

I wish I could answer your question directly about the stability of Glo DX vs regular DX, but I can't. Indirectly, I hear they are a bit more stable.

I still think a better transition and maybe permanent stop for you would be a P2. Just as good at drives and maybe better at approaches than a JK, it is definitely better at flat putts.
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I will definitely keep the stockpile of soft JK's for 300 ft or shorter drives and approach shots -- not sure why some people find soft discs more flippy unless it is an off-axis torque issue... soft JK Aviars are money. i may occasionally go to the JK for strong headwind putts...

i probably should have never gone to the JK as my putter -- but i used to throw rather than putt and love the feel and the signature on the JK's. over many rounds i have observed what you have said -- if i putted with more speed or hyzer the Aviar-x would be a good choice. as i do not, i could probably make a higher percentage of putts with a small or no bead Aviar. the left fade of the big bead Aviar causes me to just miss a percentage of slow, flat putts that would otherwise have a chance to go in

the subjective feeling a disc gives me has a big influence and i really like the Glow Aviar's minimalist stamp. soft discs seem prone to more bounce outs, and i am ready to trade those for more spit-thrus which come with a firmer disc. i think the soft disc is better for my modified FU grip (which i drive and sometimes putt with), but that for best results i need to push putt with a putt grip not a modified FU... seems to me the DX Aviars will have less release issues for me.

i don't care for the P2 stamp plus it doesn't say 'Innova' (on top); would go with a R-Pro Aviar but for the grip issue reason went with the glow. the blue and green foil stamped ones really catch my eye ;)

probably more personal preference info than necessary -- but for what its worth, there it is

btw, my old school (opaque) QMS's and new SMS's are like two different but very appreciated discs. the former is the straightest point and shoot disc i have ever thrown, and the latter (in flight) is like a more consistent, and slightly more HSS Champ Coyote. thanks as always for your pivotal historic and ongoing role in plastic disc innovation!

let those sweet babies soar!

I will definitely keep the stockpile of soft JK's for 300 ft or shorter drives and approach shots -- not sure why some people find soft discs more flippy unless it is an off-axis torque issue... soft JK Aviars are money. i may occasionally go to the JK for strong headwind putts...

JK Prototypes are money discs. Super grippy, yet still firm in the hand.

I buy up every JK Proto i can find. Current total: 8

Still looking for more.

JK Prototypes are money discs. Super grippy, yet still firm in the hand.

I buy up every JK Proto i can find. Current total: 8

Still looking for more.

I have three. 2 unthrown, uninked. 1 thrown <10 times (still perfect condition), uninked. All 175g. All white. Blue, green, rainbow hotstamps. Make me an offer.

JK Prototypes are money discs. Super grippy, yet still firm in the hand.

I buy up every JK Proto i can find. Current total: 8

Still looking for more.

love the stamp, but too firm for my taste.

It wouldn't be the first time, the wrong hot stamps were put on the wrong discs.

if you come across any Destroyers, Orcs, Roadrunners, or R-Pro Aviars with this stamp:

http://innovadiscs.com/images/discs/aviar/03_Glow_Aviar.jpg

I'll take several. Ever considered this stamp for all your discs and just putting the disc name where this one says "Glow Aviar Putter"?

I just sold a bunch of beasts with that stamp in an Ebay auction. Never really knew it mattered that much to people. If you dont like the normal stamp just wipe the rest off and leave the innova part only?

I just sold a bunch of beasts with that stamp in an Ebay auction. Never really knew it mattered that much to people. If you dont like the normal stamp just wipe the rest off and leave the innova part only?

doesn't that involve using chemicals that are probably carcinogenic?

You say that the JK is good for hyzer putts, does this mean that an over-stable putter is better for a hyzer style putter? Or is a straighter putter like an Aviar P&A or Dart better for a hyzer putter? (Or does it just boil down to personal preference?)

Thanks

I think over stable putters like JKs and KCs are better for hyzer type putts. They dive more quickly even if they are blown sideways, as opposed to a less stable putter that will travel sideway farther. I think Aviar P&As and Darts are much better for flat putts.

Of course, personal preference over rules most anything and feel over rules technique.
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doesn't that involve using chemicals that are probably carcinogenic?

acetone is not a carcinogen

acetone is not a carcinogen

there is inadequate evidence to classify it as a known carcinogen, and the sellers of acetone therefore would insist there is plausible deniability -- but i am not convinced. workers exposed to it long-term report dizziness, irritated throats, and loss of energy.

i prefer to steer clear. ymmv

You can always just use a magic eraser. Not as efficient as acetone, but it gets the job done.

I have not conducted enough trials to form a solid opinion, but it is my belief that acetone (in large enough doses) may affect the flight characteristics of discs. I completely removed the stamps on several high speed practice drivers (Wraiths, Destroyers, Katanas) in the past, and noticed that all of them flew noticeably more overstable at high speeds after stamp removal. I stopped using acetone at that point, since I generally prefer less stable discs to meat hooks, but based on that small sample I think there may be something going on. Anyone else noticed the same trend?

Dave, do you have any experience with the stock-stamped Star Katanas? They are much flatter than the Pros I have been throwing across all weight ranges, and I have heard from credible sources that they fly more stable with less carry. Any thoughts on this? Could the retailer I visited have gotten a *funny* batch? As always, thanks for your thoughts and all you do for the sport.

ben

I have not conducted enough trials to form a solid opinion, but it is my belief that acetone (in large enough doses) may affect the flight characteristics of discs. I completely removed the stamps on several high speed practice drivers (Wraiths, Destroyers, Katanas) in the past, and noticed that all of them flew noticeably more overstable at high speeds after stamp removal. I stopped using acetone at that point, since I generally prefer less stable discs to meat hooks, but based on that small sample I think there may be something going on. Anyone else noticed the same trend?

Dave, do you have any experience with the stock-stamped Star Katanas? They are much flatter than the Pros I have been throwing across all weight ranges, and I have heard from credible sources that they fly more stable with less carry. Any thoughts on this? Could the retailer I visited have gotten a *funny* batch? As always, thanks for your thoughts and all you do for the sport.

ben

Your sources are correct from my experience. Star is generally more stable than Pro across the board. Some exceptions have happened stability wise, but almost always the Pro is domier than the Star and has more carry.

After using acetone, apply some Rain-X to the area and see if you notice any difference in flight characteristics.

I have not conducted enough trials to form a solid opinion, but it is my belief that acetone (in large enough doses) may affect the flight characteristics of discs. I completely removed the stamps on several high speed practice drivers (Wraiths, Destroyers, Katanas) in the past, and noticed that all of them flew noticeably more overstable at high speeds after stamp removal. I stopped using acetone at that point, since I generally prefer less stable discs to meat hooks, but based on that small sample I think there may be something going on. Anyone else noticed the same trend?
...
...
ben

i've noticed this a while back. but also noticed the same difference on stock stamps versus event stamps that have foil all over the disc. it started with my first pro destroyer. (victoria open 2008) nice full stamp. liked the disc, bought a backup stock-stamp destroyer, same weight, and even color. much more overstable. same for wraiths and xcals as well.

Your sources are correct from my experience. Star is generally more stable than Pro across the board. Some exceptions have happened stability wise, but almost always the Pro is domier than the Star and has more carry.

As a follow-up question, is there any way to get more dome on the Star Katanas, or are we stuck with what's been released? I have also noticed slightly less dome on Star discs than Pro (Wraiths, Destroyers, XCals, Bosses), but never to the degree of these Katanas. Most of the Star distance drivers I've thrown still maintain decent to good carry compared to their Pro counterparts. But from what I've been told, the Pro and Star Katanas are like completely different discs (some have alluded to using Stars for forehand, which I wouldn't dream of with a Pro unless on an uphill, tailwind hole). Maybe others haven't had issue with this difference, but I was hoping for a Katana-ish disc with improved durability in the Star. Thanks for your thoughts.

As a follow-up question, is there any way to get more dome on the Star Katanas, or are we stuck with what's been released? I have also noticed slightly less dome on Star discs than Pro (Wraiths, Destroyers, XCals, Bosses), but never to the degree of these Katanas. Most of the Star distance drivers I've thrown still maintain decent to good carry compared to their Pro counterparts. But from what I've been told, the Pro and Star Katanas are like completely different discs (some have alluded to using Stars for forehand, which I wouldn't dream of with a Pro unless on an uphill, tailwind hole). Maybe others haven't had issue with this difference, but I was hoping for a Katana-ish disc with improved durability in the Star. Thanks for your thoughts.

While Pro are almost always domey, Star can be somewhat domey to somewhat flat. It depends on the particular batch of material we are working with. Material batches are homogeneous, but from batch to batch, they vary, sometimes widely and can cause a lot of variation. Probably your best bet would be Echo Star, which tends to have more dome than regular Star on average.

dave, To follow up on the DX Roc/Roc+ mold issue, I looked at 10 new stamped DX rocs yesterday and 6 were the + mold and for were standard Rancho. All were 100% DX too so no mis stamps.

Hi Dave,

Would there be any difference in the plastic between an echo dart and a regular production star dart? Stability? Break-in period? Anything or are they the same?

Do they make the Champion Katana in Glow ?

Like this one !

Hi Dave,

Would there be any difference in the plastic between an echo dart and a regular production star dart? Stability? Break-in period? Anything or are they the same?

I tried the Echo Star and didn't like the feel as well as the Star Dart which felt tackier to me. As for the break-in period or the flight characteristic; I didn't notice any difference but because I didn't like the feel of the Echo Star, I haven't had a lot of experience with them over time. I have had a lot of experience with the Star over time and like them alot. They start out slightly over stable and break in quickly to stable and stay that way for quite a while.

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Do they make the Champion Katana in Glow ?

Like this one !

I am not positive, but I don't believe we have. We will in the future, but not with that stamp.

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dave, To follow up on the DX Roc/Roc+ mold issue, I looked at 10 new stamped DX rocs yesterday and 6 were the + mold and for were standard Rancho. All were 100% DX too so no mis stamps.

I am looking into this. Hopefully, I will have an answer tomorrow.
Thanks

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Dave, aside from being a slightly faster Roadrunner, what are the difference between that disc and the Discmania Turning Driver (TD)?

I see that the Roadrunner has a 1.8cm rim while the TD has a 1.9cm. Is this a new part? I don't see an Innova disc on the approved list with a 1.9cm rim that's as flat (or L shaped) as the Roadrunner.

dave, To follow up on the DX Roc/Roc+ mold issue, I looked at 10 new stamped DX rocs yesterday and 6 were the + mold and for were standard Rancho. All were 100% DX too so no mis stamps.

I checked the stock today and could find no anomalies. All DX were normal mold and all R-Pro were the +mold. Keep in mind that the new run of R-Pro is about as stiff as DX, but grippier, so it is possible that you have some DX stamped R-Pro or a couple of freaks I am unaware of.

Dave, aside from being a slightly faster Roadrunner, what are the difference between that disc and the Discmania Turning Driver (TD)?

I see that the Roadrunner has a 1.8cm rim while the TD has a 1.9cm. Is this a new part? I don't see an Innova disc on the approved list with a 1.9cm rim that's as flat (or L shaped) as the Roadrunner.

I think the TD is a little more stable than the Roadrunner. It might be more comparable to a Valkyrie. It doesn't turn as much initially as we wanted, but it has other virtues. Also, it has a little more meaty feel in the hand and should be a little more torque resistant. But I haven't fully tested that yet.

Dave, I'm down here at Disc Golf World in KC, and 40 or the 50 dx Rocs down here are the + mold.

How do we tell the difference in the +mold vs the regluar Rancho Mold?

Dave, I got one of these dx Rocs in question. I also have a marked Star R+ roc, and I can see that the tooling on the bottom of the discs is different. So perhaps a piece of the mold from the R+ (like the slanted rim and the top from my eye) got used to mold some of these dx Rocs.

Dave, I'm down here at Disc Golf World in KC, and 40 or the 50 dx Rocs down here are the + mold.

Does the plastic of the + mold look smoother and feel tackier? If so, they are actually R-Pro mis-stamps. If the plastic looks and feels the same, then we must have made + mold DX. But if so, I couldn't find any here.

Does the plastic of the + mold look smoother and feel tackier? If so, they are actually R-Pro mis-stamps. If the plastic looks and feels the same, then we must have made + mold DX. But if so, I couldn't find any here.

I'll try to take a look this weekend. I'll have Rick bring out some R-Pro and dx to the tournament we're running this weekend so I can compare.

Any idea on the different mold engravings between these dx mystery Rocs and the Star R+'s? Should the R-Pro R+'s have the same mold engraving as the Star?

How do we tell the difference in the +mold vs the regluar Rancho Mold?

The + Mold has a slightly slanted inner rim. It feels similar to Latitude 64's slanted inner rim.

Most people realize it when they grip a + Mold disc since their grip feels "funny" or "different".

I'll try to take a look this weekend. I'll have Rick bring out some R-Pro and dx to the tournament we're running this weekend so I can compare.

Any idea on the different mold engravings between these dx mystery Rocs and the Star R+'s? Should the R-Pro R+'s have the same mold engraving as the Star?

They both say Rancho, but the newer R+ doesn't have the old patent # and has the www.innovadiscs.com

They both say Rancho, but the newer R+ doesn't have the old patent # and has the www.innovadiscs.com

Yep. The Star I have has the www., but the dx does not.

Thanks for being so forthcoming about this. I know that you didn't intend for these to be released in dx, and I appreciate everything you're doing to track down the reason.

Is there a Star or current Version of this type of TeeBird.

Is there a Star or current Version of this type of TeeBird.

Is that a Teebird or TL They make the Teebird in Star and Champion just not with that stamp?

Dave,

What is up with the latest run of Star TLs?

The red ones are currently being described as "Champion Cherry" Star TL.

It feels great in the hand, almost like CE and tends to be a little more durable than the Star TLs in other colors.

Plus, they are translucent to a good degree.

Is this something repeatable with other versions of star plastic? :D

http://i711.photobucket.com/albums/ww115/CodyFLee/ChampionCherryStarTL.jpg

A lot of the red star plastic is like this. It reminds me a lot of the 2005 SB Rocs.

dave,

is there any chance of seeing new runs of champion stingrays? the dx and star models ain't quite the same.

thanks

A lot of the red star plastic is like this. It reminds me a lot of the 2005 SB Rocs.

I must have been the odd man out on this one. I have both a blue and red 2005 SB Roc and the red one is not see through by any means. its a solid red that completely blocks out the sun.

I wish it were like the TL. That would make it more money than it already is.

dave,

is there any chance of seeing new runs of champion stingrays? the dx and star models ain't quite the same.

thanks

https://www.discgolfvalues.com/store/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=364&PHPSESSID=475e0e6f4d2837899c6c30f00fcc7c0c

I must have been the odd man out on this one. I have both a blue and red 2005 SB Roc and the red one is not see through by any means. its a solid red that completely blocks out the sun.

I wish it were like the TL. That would make it more money than it already is.

Ya, that plastic is cash. I have a Worlds StarTana made out of it. I (regrettably) passed on some Discmania PDs like this too.

Dave,

What is up with the latest run of Star TLs?

The red ones are currently being described as "Champion Cherry" Star TL.

It feels great in the hand, almost like CE and tends to be a little more durable than the Star TLs in other colors.

Plus, they are translucent to a good degree.

Is this something repeatable with other versions of star plastic? :D


That pigment and blueberry were the original pigments. It is repeatable.

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dave,

is there any chance of seeing new runs of champion stingrays? the dx and star models ain't quite the same.

thanks

We will run Champion Stingrays at some point. What about the Champion did you like as opposed to the Star or DX?

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Hi Dave,

Well, I found I seemed to get just as many bounce outs with the glow Aviars as with the JK's, but is was good in the sense you suggested: a new disc increases focus and feel. plus it got me practicing putting ;) I will probably keep the glow in the bag for when i need more skip/slide than the friction-friendly JK and R-pro offer.

i think i was taken by the sweet stamp of the glow Aviars; today I acquired an R-Pro Aviar and the thing is simply awesome. Do you expect the R-Pro are as durable as the JK's? Either way i think i have found a winner. thanks

Hi Dave,

Well, I found I seemed to get just as many bounce outs with the glow Aviars as with the JK's, but is was good in the sense you suggested: a new disc increases focus and feel. plus it got me practicing putting ;) I will probably keep the glow in the bag for when i need more skip/slide than the friction-friendly JK and R-pro offer.

i think i was taken by the sweet stamp of the glow Aviars; today I acquired an R-Pro Aviar and the thing is simply awesome. Do you expect the R-Pro are as durable as the JK's? Either way i think i have found a winner. thanks

I wouldn't expect the R-Pro to be as durable as the JK. The JK has the bead to protect the bottom from too much damage too soon and the JK starts a little over stable and needs a little tuning any way. You can expect the R-Pro to be considerably straighter at low speeds.

I wouldn't expect the R-Pro to be as durable as the JK. The JK has the bead to protect the bottom from too much damage too soon and the JK starts a little over stable and needs a little tuning any way. You can expect the R-Pro to be considerably straighter at low speeds.

I considered using my JK's that have slid along road and had the bead worn down for straight putters, but i would think such wear makes a 175g JK drop down too much in weight (never weighed one with such wear; wonder what a bead weighs...) For me the R-Pro will be for putting only and I will use my JK's as always for most approach shots and shorter drives. I love the feel and straightness of the R-Pro. Had very good success with it yesterday in a round.

Hi Dave,

The East CFR selection is looking a little light. I thought Glo Leopards were done? Any plans to add anything since most the Katanas have been sold?