Hey Dave--A CE Panther? Ive not thrown one before, arent they Sniper like?Or is that the Polecat? Or neither?What should we expect out of the CE Panther?Fast mid-range?Okay I do have something for you about the Omega.I recently got what i think is a 1st run CE Omega,teal with a Sandy Point stamp[thanks Jeff Clark]I was always told those were the closest to the 1st run CE aviars[from i think the pro worlds of 02?]the gold ones that are hard to find,i was told only 300 were made of the 1st went out.My O is old 8-10 months and feels alot firmer than the new Quantums and also alot firmer than my beadless KC avair from this year which i hear is rare too.Im not using it yet but probaly will as preservation is not my strong point.My discs just give me dirty looks till i throw them.Any way do you know much about the runs of these Omegas and were there differences in the molds between mine and the newest to come out?Thank you Sir.

chase, the Champion Panther is less stable than the Sniper at high speed, but similar. Fast mid-range straight to slight turn is about right. The Omegas were the same mold, but might be a slightly different material. The stiffer one could be an opaque, which means it has a weighting agent in it, or it is pure candy, which tends to be a littler stiffer.

Dave--The new Panter sounds good I look forward eo seeing them the guy I get my plastic throgh is on top of new products so im sure to see it soon.
althogh I have to say my next purchases will be all Vikings.Those are now my primary drivers and I cant say enough about them.I dropped jaws at Monday leagues in Follets,Ia.420'average,including a 20ft. putt on hole 6 {460'-flat ground]It was sick,even in the headwind i got well over 400' and for me thats great and i give all the juice to the Viking,thanks.I do have a Question about the Plastics though- The Viking I use is red transparent[175]but I seen others in the pearl type and wondered if there was a difference in stability.All the new Pro and CE plastic I have is in the pearl and it seems alot more stable than my old 1st and 2nd run CE,but i do have the CE TLs that were run in clear from late last year and the Viking plastic seems similar.I was just curious-New Beasts the same just with new stamp?Once again thanks for lettin me pick your brain.

Dave, do all discs, discraft, innova, or otherwise have the same patent number?

chase, the stability is about the same with those two plastics. The stability does change from run to run and within runs slightly as the plastic is very finicky. Weather, color additives, and time of day during the run all affect the plastic somewhat.. Yes, the new Barry Beasts should be the same.

Dave,

Think Daniel's disc may be an 86 mold? Lots were made in orange, and I think it is closer to a meld of a Rubber Putter and Stingray that what you mentioned, which are all closer to a Stingray.

BTW, I think it's great that you are taking time to answer questions and add an overall tone to the these threads you are on. You represent the Hall of Fame and the sport very well, and I hope to bump into you in DSM next year.

I have put an Eagle back into my bag. One owner, orange, 162g, I'm sure you are quite familiar with it. I'm working on a LHBH, but until it's ready, what a sweet slicing disc I got! It's a kick to pull it out, a tell a 23yo in my group that he was in diapers when I bought this disc.

Jeez, am I really that old? I think that the PDGA needs to modify their eligibility for divisions:

Masters: turn 40 during the calendar year, or over 30 and have been a PDGA member for 10 or more years during the calendar year.


GM: turn 50 or have been a PDGA member for 20 years or more and is 40 or over during the calendar year. I could really dig on that one!


BTW, any thoughts of having a 25th anniversary commemoration of the $50K open at HB in May 2004?

Bill, I don't think it's an 86 because he said it had Innova engraving on the bottom. We opted not to make 86s. Thanks for the kind words. No 50k next year, but we will be having the Masters again, if you're old enough, young man. http://www.pdga.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif By the way, if you didn't know, the Eagle mold was only extant for one month before it was retooled into the Aero. There were only two runs of 3,000 speckled orange and 7,000 total of blue, yellow, orange (no speckles) and pink ever made.

Thanks Dave- Got some more for you but am engulfed in the new 2004 Tiger Woods PS2 game.It would be sweet if Innova talked with EA Sports and came out with a Disc game of that caliber,as this game is amazing.Wishful thinking I guess.Am playing Eastern Ave in Davenport,IA tommarrow and its very long let you know how the Viking does,have a good day--thanks again.

We need a PS2 Net Yaroze for that to happen.

Dave will please overcook a couple beasts for me? I have 2 champion beasts from the first batch you created, they are pink weigh about 172, are somewhat transparent and of average flatness for a beast, however they are more overstable than other beast I have over thrown. Upon closer inspection I have noticed a unitentional ameoba design in the center of the disc where the plastic is injected. I talked to few different molders of yours and they informed me that this was caused by this disc being cooked too long. Have you ever foud that heating a disc longer than another to enhance its flight pattern to be successful?

Pat, I don't want to talk about molding, but I will tell you that I have a couple of those transparent pink Beasts. http://www.pdga.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif

Rhett-a what?----Throw those discs in the oven!? Or buy a Viking and youll find that the Beast isnt that important I now use mine for rollin.

Net Yaroze was a "home enthusiast development system" that Sony put out when they launched the first playstation. They had a web community for it too. For aboout $700 you got a modified PSX and some development libraries, and you could develop and cross-compile games on your PC and then download (upload?) them to your PSX/Net Yaroze machine.

If they had that for PS2 you could organize a "linux team" type thing to develop a new generation disc golf game.

Rhett- that would be amazing.I have a friend that has the Innova game but says its really easy.To play a game of 2004 caliber but only disc golf would be awesome.I dont even play ball golf,just on PS2.<FONT COLOR="ff0000">����</FONT> thatd be sweet. --------------------Dave- How about those CE minis? when are they coming out?Threw a Epic recently,any plans for a disc like that from you?I didnt care for it but a disscussion turned to after the patent deal that alot of discs will come out with new designs"re-engineered" type stuff like the Epic and Arrow.Do you have any thoughts on it?I ended the debate with if it aint broke dont fix it.Much respect.

chase the CE mini Aeros are out now. The CE Aviars are promotional right now. As for the Epic, I don't think it should have be legalized. It is essentially a plate or discus in disguise. Its gripping hole was large enough to fool the PDGA, but it is no different if that hole were 2" in diameter on one side of the disc. The PDGA needs to tighten up the language of what constitutes a disc. We could easily make something much more ballistic (discus)than the Epic, but we won't because we believe that disc golf should be played with discs. Not rings, not balls, not a discus.

Dave,When will you make some Champ Cheetah's? Put me down for some when you do.

Hey Dave--All I can say is that I agree with what you say but I am finicky with change and might have a different opion had I actually liked the disc.To me its fun to toss around awhile and I did see some double corkscrew thumbers but it was not under control enough for it to be practical for any kind of competitive play,even leauges.On the other hand if I got 400ft thumbers down with it {which i saw}my mind might change.Do you forsee this as a disc that will be used by top players or do you see it as a bridge for distance challenged players?I ask because the people I saw throwing deep thumbers and tomahawks dont get that D with other discs and clearly that left the immpression that that was what they had been missing in their game,to which I laughed off saying practice,mechanics and repitition is why their game lacked the skills they expected.I dunno Ive only been playin for 4 years and have thrown alot of plastic in that time but attribute more of my skill to me than the discs I throw or brand I use.I live in a Innova town and have always thrown Innova or Millenium plastic but have thrown other brands which have lines I do like MRV,Wildcat {i wonder why?ha}but I tend to stay with what I know.I have a friend that sells ground up army men and always is after me to try out their stuff and when it doesnt impress me I tell him when It does something for my game that my discs dont Ill throw it .So i guess if people think like me {not many lets hope}then maybe itll be around,along with that stupid putter.Thanks for postin.

chase, no I do not see the Epic as a disc that will be used by top players. I don't even see it as a disc. It has crossed the line, but the PDGA didn't seem to notice, as usual. This is one of their most important duties. Rules of play and equipment used in play should be priorities for the PDGA as they define the sport of disc golf. The less defined disc golf is, the more it is like a game, and less like a sport.

dave, would you please elaborate on why the epic is not really a disc? is it because the rim is lopsided?

Yes, essentially. The Epic is not the worst case scenario. The Epic, by itself is nothing. The Epic opens up the doors for a worst case. If the Epic remains legal, there is no difference between that and another disc with a six inch rim on one side, and a fingerhole for a grip on the otherside. A delineation needs to be made between a "Frisbee-like" disc and a discus like disc. Something needs to be written like: "the rim thickness can be no wider than 10% of the overall diameter."

Paul, sorry I missed your question. We have Champion Cheetahs, or their equivalent in KC Pro.

Dave, have you formally informed the PDGA of your perspective that:

A delineation needs to be made between a "Frisbee-like" disc and a discus like disc. Something needs to be written like: "the rim thickness can be no wider than 10% of the overall diameter."

You've had a pivotal relationship to our sport for a long time and one would hope your concerns will be given serious consideration. If you or anyone else wants to petition the PDGA for just such a rule, count me in.

Just a tad conflict of interest involved here... and your case is less than compelling (particularly in light of your new wide rimmed discs).

Kind of like DGA saying only their targets are PDGA approved, or Fly 18 saying only their tee pads are PDGA approved.

Disc golf needs as many kicks in the A and as often as possible. The Epic is a direct kick in the A to all disc golf disc designers and manufactures who have been sitting in their cozy little protected worlds for years now.

Well, time is up! Get on the cutting edge or be left behind. The PDGA can not and should not save you from innovation by competitors. They have standards that you have been using for years. For them to now change them to negate this innovation is a little too obvious a favoritism.

The Epic is NOT a compeditor. That disc is complete crap.

There's a difference between a gimmick and an innovation. I think the market will ferret this out by itself. Dave's point is not out of self interest (at least I did not perceive it that way). Perhaps a question to the technical standards committee would shed some light on how or if additional extremes in design would affect how we define what "is" a disc.

Why do think disc golf manufacturers need a kick in the A? It seems their innovations have rendered some older choice holes almost boring. How many more innovations does this sport really need.

It's possible that some radical new design could make once-great courses pedestrian. In my mind at least, it is vital that the PDGA write and enforce language that keeps the character of the sport intact.

Disclaimer: I've never seen or thrown this disc and it does sound like it is nothing to worry about. The sky is probably not falling but it never hurts to look up once in a while.

nick lighten up. crawl back in your semi-pro hole or start a technical standards rant somewhere else.

dave does a rainbow-foil stamp denote a first-run disc on every kc,jk,ce or champion disc?

Rob, yes I have formally and informally informed the PDGA. As of yet, no response.

underparmikey, no, it's just a foil we use a lot.

Mike, I need to lighten up? LOL. What does this have to do with semi-pro (besides I'm a True Amateur, not a semi-pro)?

I've seen quite a few people with the Epic in their bags and seen them throw it in competition. Whether or not it is innovation or not I suppose is a matter of opinion. Good or bad one, I think that it clearly is.

I don't see how, Dave's request for a limit to the percentage of rim to total surface is anything that would preserve the "character of the sport". The same could have been said for the bevelled edge after all. That was of far greater detriment to our courses than this is. No one is suddenly going to shoot 10 to 15 strokes better with the EDGE than they do with a Beast. But that certainly happened when the Sting Ray came out.

Dave has said that he is overly cautious concerning conflict of interest issues here on the PDGA Message Board. If this isn't a prime candidate for being cautious nothing is.

By Nick Kight on Monday, September 29, 2003 - 11:11 am:


Chase, I'm an Open Pro. Have been for 14 years.


Now, Nick... which is it? True Am, Semi-Pro, or Open Pro?

http://www.pdga.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif See you this weekend http://www.pdga.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif

Dave, would a rule that a disc or disc rim must be symmetrical suffice?

I think Daves concern is people that are not on this board,don't play tournaments, and just play rec golf recognize the name aerobie vs innova. Super flights (aerobie) sells to every retail store that sells sporting goods in the country and world. They are selling in 31 countries. So if I am Joe blow (who knows nothing about the game other than what my friend at school told me) and go into Sports Authority or Big 5 and see two brands of golf discs on the shelf one is Innova and one is Aerobie. I am going to buy the aerobie because I know how far the ring goes and I have never heard of innova.

Nick is totally right about the 1983 eagle. It was something completely new and different that is allegedly why it was able to get a patent. The Epic is the same thing that is why it got a patent.

I think Dave is upset because he didn't think of it and now if he wants to come up with something similar he will have to pay a licensing fee just like he made everyone else do.

This is just another stepping stone in the game that might work or it might not.

The 10 to 15 stroke improvement created by the stringway is exaggeration, but I understand your point. In my mind, the beveled edge did not change the way discs flew, it mainly changed the distance they flew. That is my admittably rough idea of the "character of the sport".

What I'm talking about here is different than the beveled edge. When I hear of 400 foot thumbers (by more than a handful of folks), I start to wonder about the imaginable ways objects can be designed to fly and I start to think that it's not just distance that would change, but how the disc flys. That is my concern with the character of the sport. I'll admit, however, that this is merely my indefensible preference.

James HATES Thumbers,Pancakes,Thomahawks,or overhand Two-finger shots. Concern...what concern do you have James? Please explain what concern this is?

A pastor friend of mine in Raleigh recently picked up an epic. With regular discs, his max BH distance is around 280', and his max tomahawk is around 250'. After a week of playing around with the epic, he can tomahawk it 300-350' with reasonable accuracy, so now he throws it exclusivley from the tee.

Interestingly, he can't throw it appreciably farther backhand than his other discs, so the question in my mind is whether the epic is a flying disc or a ballistic projectile. The fact that he can still only tomahawk his other discs 240-260' suggests that it's the latter.

Rob, a symmetry rule was implicit, as far as I was concerned, but it might do if it were made explicit. Certainly in lieu of anything else.

Felix, you bring up a good point. I could easily design a disc that is faster and worse than the Epic, (and stay within the literally read PDGA rules), but I don't think it should be in disc golf. That is the same reason I lobbied for weight restrictions when discs were going over 200 gms. It was changing the nature of the sport. It had nothing to do with economics then, and it has nothing to do with it now. The last bit was more addressed to Nick.

jsks,

IIRC, the Eagle came out in 1982. I think I picked mine up at the 82 Tennessee States. I still carry one in my bag.

re: weight limit.

I think that there should be some sort of consideration of rim "sharpness" and flexibility as a function of weight.

That is, if a disc has a broad rim, such as the old Wham-O Midnight Flyers, then the weight limit could be greater than 200g. Also, if the disc is more flexible, it can weigh more as well.

The issue is safety, so if the same force is spread out over a greater area, the effect is less.

The formula should be something like this:

Max weight = A*(Rim Radius) B(flexibility), with A and B as constants. The greater the rim radius or the flexibility, the more it can weigh.

Who let Nick in here?

Bill, I suggested a similar thing to the PDGA back at the Canada Worlds and again at the Michigan Worlds. It fell on deaf ears.

Dave--Sorry to get you involved in this,I didnt think it would be such a #$@%storm.Did my earlier post get bumped?Hey Clark-Follets ace fund is still intact!400$

chase, thank you, but no apology necessary. I knew what I was getting into.

Disingenuous - dis�in�gen�u�ous ( P ) Pronunciation Key (dsn-jny-s)
adj.
Not straightforward or candid; insincere or calculating: �an ambitious, disingenuous, philistine, and hypocritical operator, who... exemplified... the most disagreeable traits of his time� (David Cannadine).

Chase, don't tell me these things! It only makes me want to call in sick on Mondays! Went to Galesburg Sunday afternoon and played the new course there. Very nice park with great concrete tee pads and a cool course. I think we need to meet PFC half way and rumble!

Dave, it seems to me that a basic definition of a disc is that it is symmetrical (and has a symmetrical rim). Maybe the PDGA could consider allowing imbalanced non-symmetrical discs as a separate class of event, but not in typical competitions.

It makes me think of aluminum bats -- but i guess even there the shape is still similar. Are corked bats a better analogy? If they made bats that let average hitters hit the ball farther, home run fences would have to be moved back and parks would have to be re-built.

What are some analogies with equipment in other sports which help illustrate the not-so-pretty direction imbalanced discs might lead?

Also, how long ago did you formally and informally share your concerns with the PDGA? Are you saying you haven't received any reply at all? It would be nice to know what their perspective on this is.

Galesburg?--I had no idea.If you didnt have a job you wouldnt have to call in.PFC?They are still mad I took the first ace fund of the year.Thanks PFC!--BTW-Save some max weight Vikings for me,the clear plastic kind not the pearl type if you still got them, thank you sir.==Dave-either way I feel bad that this turned so far south,but I have been churning up alot here for the people that like to just argue over dumb stuff and overdo everything like Nick the master bater-or debater which ever-I just like to hear your opion.
see ya.

Dave
My question concerns the patent. With the expiration of the patent will Innova lose royalty rights?
Do you think there will be an influx of new companies wanting to get into the disc production business?
Do you think this will benefit or hurt the sport?

Will you autograph a couple of discs for my store at the USDGC? http://www.pdga.com/discus/clipart/proud.gif I've got a proto Eagle and Ontario ROC hanging on the wall with your signature and want to add a couple more to the collection.

I for one think the Epic is and should be forever Legal. For what reason would it not be.

Dave, what you need to make is a disc that had a very wide rim, even wider than the recent new discs (Beast, Valk, Firebird, Leapord, T-Bird) This way those of us who use the power grip can hold the disc more twards the center of the disc, therefore creating more spin. I think this is why the Valk is my favorite driver. (I have not thrown the Beast yet)

I think that is why people can throw the Epic so far.

As far as tuning discs. I have been doing that for years without even knowing it. (the article in DGWN showed me that) I have always bent my disc before I threw it. Mostly to make sure it was not too tacoed.

Rob, recently I made my position known to the board in June, and then again at the Worlds. But the first time was at the Ontario Worlds.

Rick, yes I will sign a couple of discs at USDGC. But, two controversial subjects at once?

I have no stake in this either way. I have been throwing mainly Innova for many years now, but with Discraft, Gateway, and now completely new companies getting into the disc golf disc manufacturing business it makes sense that these companies will have something unique, perhaps specialized, and oft preferable, or at least competitive with Innova.

This is not a safety issue.
This is not a "Character of the Sport" issue.
It is an "Innovation" issue. A "money" issue. A "new option" issue.

Seriously, how can this seriously be considered a threat to the character of the sport? It's a flying disc for crying out loud. It's not like it is a Phlazer with no flight characteristics what so ever. Heck there have been PDGA approved discs that are arguably more projectile than disc.

As far as who is the final arbitrator of what kind of disc flight represents the "character of the sport", it is not the PDGA, it is not Innova, it is not Aerobie, it is not Discraft, it is not Lightning, it is not Gateway, it is not Dave Dunipace, it is not any single person or organization who decides this. It is anyone who picks up a disc and chucks it during competitive rounds. And they can choose to fling it in almost an infinite number of ways and methods. If you don't want them to roll then make them square! People have brains, some tend to use them on occasion. http://www.pdga.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif Innovation in disc design is rare, innovation in throwing technique is equally rare. I am appreciative of both.

Other than the Epic Thumber Glide, only the Beast as it went around a corner and continued to glide an extra 60 feet elicited as much of a sense of awe from me this year. The different way discs fly is cool. Enjoy it! Revel in it.

Nick, again, it is not the Epic. It is what the Epic opens up. You're making assumptions, (some mean spirited) and not listening, or you are arguing for plates.

Jeff Homburg ultimately decides if a disc is PDGA legal or not. The PDGA set the standards he uses. So, it IS the PDGA, Nicki.

BTW, I can't believe that the Max Flight is PDGA legal when it is clearly two pieces.

I think it's an innovative and intersting disc.
That being said, it <FONT COLOR="ff0000">�����</FONT> for the sport for one huge reason: newbies find it hard enough to control discs, and this one is downright unpredictable - especially for newer players (who will buy it simply because of the name).

I think that overall, it pushes some boundaries and shows that those boundaries are good - keeps you from having a flaky disc, but it's more a detriment to the sport than a boon. I don't harbor any ill feeling towards the maker, however: his schtick is to challenge assumptions. Look at his flying ring or his superdisc - both are fairly radical departures from the previous assumptions made in flying discs, and are cool. Sadly, I think that it will have more of a negative impact on the sport than he anticipated.

As far as Dave's viewpoint, I see it much like the motorcycle industry's "gentleman's agreement" that limits the top end speed of bikes. When a new manufacturer entered the market with a helicopter turbine powered bike that blew away the speed limit, many manufacturers were ****** because it represented a poor trend for the safety of the riders. Much like those manufacturers, I think Dave and the other major players will act appropriately, voice their concerns, and not fall into trying to produce the same gimmicky and overall damaging products that the new innovative but naiive company may have introduced.

Is it about money? Nah. Don't get me wrong, plenty of people bought the fastest production motorcycle ever made ... but if they were riders, they bought different bikes, and kept the other simply as a showpiece. Personally, I bought an epic, and I still throw it for fun - it's wacky, but I'll not throw it for golf. Quite simply it's crap. Innovative crap. Crap that reinforces why disc golf discs are designed the way they are. Crap that may sadly turn a few potential players off to the sport. But it's fun crap. And I don't think it's crap that will put Dave D out of business.

As far as those of you criticizing Dave, don't confuse yourself. He could make more money on discs, by far; he has enough of a market share to set prices if he wants, and he hasn't. Consider that he's saying almost exactly the same thing as motorcycle manufacturers, "This product is hard to control and fast enough to be literally dangerous. If you know people interested in the sport, please guide them to a product that won't turn them off to the sport or hurt them or those around them," - an MRV, Shark, or Demon.

Props to Dave for speaking out for the sport. He knew he'd get flack from nay-sayers and critics, but he spoke out to protect the sport. Props again, man.

Dave, are you sure that I am the one making assumptions? Reread my last post and find one thing that was mean spirited.

I simply do not believe that your argument that the Epic represents a threat to our sport holds any water. It meets PDGA Technical Standards. It's cool. It is no greater safety risk than any other disc.

You should welcome the innovation. It should challenge you to come up with a decisive response; not in the form of trying to ban it, but in the form of a disc that out performs it.

Nicki, you can delude yourself into thinking your post was not mean spirited, but it was.

I think telling Dave it is a "money" issue is mean spirited when he has clearly stated several times, it is not about the money. Also using his name in who does what for the sport kinda singles him out, don't ya think?

Dave is a straight up guy. Nicki, you on the other hand have a less than desirable reputation on this message board. Mostly you flip flop, or you drive craap down our throats until we gag.
I assume this topic will just become another outlet for your prolific, yet unneceassary sparring on any issue you can find.

...to everyone else, you can now skip over the next 10,000 posts by Nicki that are to follow. Even though he has clearly made his point in the above posts.

Nick always likes a good argument Dave. Even if its not
JB

My my Suzette, aren't we fiesty this morning. Suzette to the rescue!!! LOL.

Do I need to state the obvious here?

So Dave and Suzette, you don't see any conflict of interest, based on financial considerations, in a President and Owner of one disc manufacturer lobbying to have the very patent of another disc manufacturer made illegal by the governing body of disc golf?

Dave is a great guy by all accounts, and his and his companies contributions to disc golf as a whole are unquestionable. This should not however blind us to the obvious. Certainly he is free to lobby as he pleases, just as I am free to point out what seems plain as day.

Well said Discette! Another good thread gone bad.

Dave
I know that different plastic reacts differently when it comes out of the mold and all the factors involved within a run. I also know that the whole TL thing has been beaten into the ground but hey, it's better than dealing with Nick. The fundraiser TL's seemed to be too domey for me. Any chance that you would use other plastic to try and duplicate the earlier runs without experiencing the inconsistencies you dealt with back then? All the Fundraisers I have seen are clear. Did you run any opaque and if so were they as domey? Thank's Dave!

Nick, here is what Dave wrote:

"The Epic is not the worst case scenario. The Epic, by itself is nothing. The Epic opens up the doors for a worst case. If the Epic remains legal, there is no difference between that and another disc with a six inch rim on one side, and a fingerhole for a grip on the otherside. A delineation needs to be made between a "Frisbee-like" disc and a discus like disc. Something needs to be written like: "the rim thickness can be no wider than 10% of the overall diameter."

DL, thanks for the motorcycle manufacturing analogy. I don't follow racing, but maybe some of the rules of NASCAR would help illustrate why the PDGA would be wise not to open the door too wide here.

Let's suppose someone designed a disc that was not evenly balanced and could increase the average player's distance 50%. That would not make an average golfer any less average, it would only mean courses would eventually have to be re-designed to catch up to the new technology. For a honeymoon period, average golfers would kid themselves that they were now long drivers.
(Plus courses would require more real estate to fit in 18 holes)

I think a special class of gimmicky discs could be created and maybe a few G-tier events could be held with them were there interest. If that became what everyone wanted to play then it could become mainstream at that point. The Epic may not be the disc which starts us down a slippery slope, but it may open the door to one that does.

Dave D., Do you feel responsible for the way the game is played now since the intro of the beveled edge disc?

So is it quantum leap in performance that is the threat here? I doubt that, and even if it was, isn�t that what all manufacturers are fighting to achieve?

By the way, this thread is dedicated to asking Dave D questions? Nobody said anything about �easy� questions.

Was ball golf originally played with one club before it evolved into where we are today? And, was it literally a "club"? http://www.pdga.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif

Are club and ball designs restricted by the PGA?
What is the spirit (rather than the letter) of those laws?

sorry Dave, maybe we should take this up in a separate thread

Dave, what is the difference between a Beast, a Viking and a Starfire in Champion type plastic?

Ok, back to the topic of questions for Dave D.

Dave, are Arnold and Arianna secretly in love? and Could Gray Davis get back in the race if he incorporates the bent elbow technique?

I've read that the epic might bring worse disc golf equipment? How is that? If someone wants to take the equipment we have already and try to make it better, I say more power to them. At least their attempt was with two "new" style frisbees and not 5 a year with only slight modifications. The way I see it is that the companies keep coming out with new stuff for the average rec. player to think that it might help their game. Who still putts with an Aviar or a Magnet? I'm sure a lot of the top pros use them. So what are the maufacturers really woriied about? It's all about the rec golfer that is trying to learn the sport and when he/she is having frisbees handed to him saying it will do this and that, that will be the one they take. So lets leave the "new" guys/girls alone and see which frisbee they will choose in their own frisbee challange.

Roc, the last batch of fundraiser TLs were glow in the dark translucent. Are these the domey ones?

Discette, nice 4th round again. Beast is the least high speed stable with the most carry. Viking is the straightest, very much like a little more stable Valkyrie. The Starfire is the fastest and is like a more stable Beast. Thanks for your kind words.

Daniel, thank you, and well said.

No, sir.
Thank YOU and well said

...

and what's with this rumor I heard that JK was upset about the Valk being run in Ken's plastic when the JK Valk first came out?

(Or is this not the Dave D Rumor Mill thread?)

Hey Dave--I got a easy one for you.Whats in your bag?------And to Nick---you make me sick,I already seen you lie about your division,pick fights with anyone over anything,disrepect the man who created your "fave"disc and talk a bunch of craap about stroking only to report you did nothing like a coward.Im glad I only have to deal with you on here and not in my town,good luck on your next argument ,jerky.Sorry again Dave for getting you tied up with the riffraff.

Chase, my bag contains one Pro Rhyno, 2 JK Pro Aviars, 1 CE Roc (quite used, but straight), 1 Champion Panther, 3 Champion Vikings (one for rolling), 1 Champion Leopard, 1 Champion Firebird, the other two will vary depending on the course or day. Maybe a Monster or Beast or Starfire. Maybe a Spider or Gator. Thanks.

Chase,

Dave just wrote earlier in this thread that he is particularly mindful of conflict of interest when posting here or in his actions outside in the real world. That is a good policy. I consider his attempt to make the Edge illegal for PDGA play and his posts concerning it here on the PDGA website questionable and said so. This is not picking a fight, it is stating what would appear to be obvious, and giving him a chance to respond. I am more than willing to take him at his word when and if he makes his intentions clear. He has not done that, or not to my satisfaction. (Truth is he doesn�t need to, but that won�t help his point, regarding this topic, in my view.) My ability to be convinced that I have been mistaken about something; I see as a strength, not a weakness.

Rules are a tricky business, I do the best I can to know, follow, and call them. I am not going to portray myself as a model of perfection when I am not. If this is cowardly, then I am prepared to live with it and try to improve. I can live with my efforts in this regard, can you?

You would be so happy to have me in your town Chase. I am an avid disc golfer who runs, volunteers for and attends a lot of events. I�m also not a quitter or someone who backs down from a challenge. I�m a fairly friendly sort who gets along with most everyone. Even now, after your ignorant and inflammatory remarks directed at me, if you asked for my help, I would give it. Life is way too short to hold grudges and there is way too much to get done, particularly as regards disc golf.

Dave is definitely one of my heroes. But that does not mean that I will shy away from calling it as I see it. Perhaps I could have chosen my words more carefully; for though I do see a conflict of interest as concerns this specific issue, I do not think that Dave is a greedy or dishonest person. If I gave that impression then I was wrong to do so and apologize, and will exercise greater caution in the future. I do not think that I did however, accept for those folks here with their Nick Kight goggles on, who read all sorts of stuff into my posts that just aren�t there.

Anyway, carry on, I�ll leave this thread in peace. Good luck to us all.

Regards,
Nick Kight

Dave, given a long, wide open fairway with a light optimal breeze, what would you throw for big D?
Also, having never thrown a Panther, what do they do? I'm guessing they're an understable mid-ranger...
Which year CE Roc do you throw?
What weights are your preferences?
I could go on...but I'll stop now! http://www.pdga.com/discus/clipart/proud.gif

Dave, do you putt with your Pro Rhino?

If you have Vikings in your bag, then I shall too!
How lightweight do these get in CE plastic?

Are Starfires available only as tournament fundraisers? They had some at Women's Nationals, but they were all heavy weights.

NICK--whatever dude ,some day Ill meet you and maybe youll be a great guy but until that happens ill stick with my ignorant comments as you have made me think that way of you throughout these threads,the coward part works like this I see a blatant foul I call it I dont talk about it on the message board I call it.I dont ask people to back up something I wont do or didnt doas you have on previous threads-It dont matter Dude,see you sometime.----------------------------------------------------------------Dave-Thanks for letting me know what your packing.I have alot of the same cept 1 175 Viking,CE Leopard 174,175 Pro line Beast{2-finger rollers}CE TL 174 for S shots a Q-JLS for long controlled anhyzers,175,SE TL {harder type plastic-175}for flip-up hysers,J-Bird DX Roc{180} for pinpoint mid range,175 Gremlim Pro for long mid range!!,174 KC 10x Firebird,11x KC Teebird 174,both for long hysers,175 CE Monster{2-fingers}and rotate a CE FL{174} a beat CE Eagle{174}and other TLs in and out-I putt with DX bottom stamped Avairs{174-175}or a KC beadless CE Avair{174}.Still havent used the Omega we talked about and am pursuing 2 more max weight Vikings,new CE Beast,and a Starfire.Eventually the CE Gremlin.Quick Question:Why are the DX beasts that first came out{with the charecter stamp or ballstamp}seemingly more stiff in the dome than the more recent DX Beasts Ive seen? The most recent seem to soft in the middle and dont seem to have as much bite just more stability?Thank you Sir.

Circle 2, on a wide open, optimal breeze I would throw a mid sixties or lighter Champion Beast for distance. A Champion Panther is a fast mid-range slightly unstable at high speed, stable the rest of the way disc. I throw max weight. The CE Roc is first year. My buddy Rob and I both use it depending on who needs it at the time. It is mine right now. 179 gms. I throw max weight for anything short to mid range. I thow max weight rollers. Max Champion Leopard. For long drivers I usually throw 168 to 172 unless I need a wind buster that is heavier. I might also use a 154 or so for uphill shots.

Discette, I don't putt with the Rhyno anymore. I use it for windy situations and short spikes. Vikings go down into the 150s. Yes Starfires are only for fundraisers and probably are only aviailable in high 60s up.

chase, I don't have an answer for you on the DX Beasts. Sorry.

So, what disc do you putt with, Dave?

Nick, what's this "Edge" you keep rambling about?

Discette, I putt with the JK Aviar. Also most of my approaches and short drives are with the JK Aviar, which happens to be my favorite disc too. 172-174gms.

I went through quite a few big piles of Starfires recently and found 2 166s, probably 15 167s, and a bunch of 168s in addition to the heavier stuff. So I'd say they don't go below 166g very often at all.

Oh, wait. When I ordered them I asked for some in the 160-164 range because it was an available check-box and I got zero of that quantity, so that should seal the deal that they don't come that light.

Dave - is there a timeline on when a new run of JK Aviar X's will come out ? You had said a while back that you were trying to get them soft again like the 3x ones. I am running out of putters! Only one 3x max weight left, and its being saved until it is absolutely needed (also my favorite disc). Those 4x ones just don't cut it, they are nowhere near as soft when new or after being broken in.

Dave-Thats no big deall about the DX Beast.I dont throw the DX,but wanted one of the stiffer ones after seeing the speed my friend put on it and he has both---Another friend claims to have 2 CE ELs that are 1st or 2nd run,not the GLO.Thoughts?

AJ, they have been made, but are just sitting, behind the stiffer ones that aren't selling very well. I agree with you completely, and I will see what I can do to get the in the system as soon as possible. Thanks

chase, I only remember the first opaque red run which Scott Martin, Barry Schultz, and some of the other Team Champion guys liked. They were fairly stiff and straight flying. They would also have had sharp edges from untrimmed flash.

Chase

Don't listen to Pat. They are not what he thinks they are. I know, I sold them to him. If you want a true EL talk to Chad, he has one and it's to flippy for him. Take a look at the Ozark Mountain thread, it's a must tourney! Two of the coolest layouts around. A true par 70 course!

dave..do you still have any of the first run jk's left anywhere???
i got mine when they first came out and paid 5 bucks for the disc and a throw at a discatcher(to win the basket) in florida......
disc is close to having a hole thru where it picked up a cactus thorn and i wish to replace it.....it is the same mold, plastic and grippiness of the 1.6-1.11 supersofts correct?
i use the ss's for practice putting and they seem identical in every aspect....please let me know if they are the same.....thanks...keith

Dave, I have never asked you for anything before http://www.pdga.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif, but I was wondering about the possibility of a Glow CE Teebird T and a Glow CE Leopard? I am sure that both would be appreciated. Also, if the CE Teebird isn't a possibility, how about just a plain old Glow Teebird?

keith, the material used for SS and JK is similar. The molds are different. The SS is more of a true putter with a slightly understable flight character. The JK is an all around with a very stable flight character.

Rocmon, we are making glow Champion TeeBirds right now. We will make glow Champion Leopards too if we can get to it in time.

Cool, do you know when they might be available and are they going to be fundraiser discs or readily available?

Rocmon, they should be available through normal channels for the Halloween season.

> Another friend claims to have 2 CE ELs that are 1st or 2nd run,not the GLO.Thoughts?

Chase, are you talking about Champion Edition or CFR? All the CFR ELs I've seen are glow. CEs were available through regular distribution channels, and were availble in red, pink, orange, white, green, and yellow. (There may have been more colors, but those are the ones I have.) Most were opaque, though I have a translucent green one. Based on the acquisition dates, I'd guess there were at least 2 runs of CE ELs.

"The SS is more of a true putter"

from the man himself http://www.pdga.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif

However, the man himself putts with the JK Aviar-x http://www.pdga.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif

Thanks Mr.Dave-------------------Hey Clark- Dont know if I am going or not,need to find a jobby-job or sell all my cards whatever comes first.Seeings how I havent played any tourneys this year,except the ones I played bad in{ALL}that course seems right up my alley.Do they pay out in ground up army men?

Rob, I stopped reading before that part http://www.pdga.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif

Some showed me a VL once. A Champion Valkyire with a VL on the bottom. I am thinking a miss print or something. Anyone??

> A Champion Valkyire with a VL on the bottom.

Probably bad (hasty) penmanship. I have several DX and CE Valks, including a second run CE, where the "K" looks like an "L", all with the regular Valk bottom.

Thanks Dave for the Aviar-X good news! Anything else special coming out for the Halloween season ?

They are writing VL on Valkyries now to avoid confusion with the VG Viking, either of which could be a Vk. We re-stocked a ton JK Valks before the Am Championships and all the new ones had VL.

thanks for the answer dave.the way i throw them it doesn't matter stable or unstable or overstable...i just change the angle of my hand depending on where i want the disc to go....
by the way can you answer the question please? thanks... keith

By keith johnson on Wednesday, October 01, 2003 - 10:52 pm:
dave..do you still have any of the first run jk's left anywhere???

> They are writing VL on Valkyries now to avoid confusion with the VG Viking, either of which could be a Vk.

Makes sense.

How long before some numbnuts asks about Valks with Leopard bottoms? http://www.pdga.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif

Dave, was the Gazelle mold retooled at some point in the past?

Yes it was Felix. Retooled and they made their debut at the 96 worlds. Older gazelles have a bead around the inner rim where you grip.

By the way I still have your Coupes ready to go. Couldn't make it to Sneeky Pete. Are you coming down for the USDGC? If not I'll figure out a way to get them to you.

Thanks, Rick. Yes, I'll be heading down to the USDGC. I'll hook up with you there.

keith, sorry. I don;t know of any first run JK Valks, but I wouldn't be surprised if we had some in our x outs.

felix and rick, yes the Gazelle was retooled from the original which was a spectacular distance flyer with so so control. It is actually the newer Gazelles that have the inner rim bead, or still have the bead if you were referring to older, but post retool Gazelles. I believe the Gazelle was also retooled a second time around 1999.

Mmmmm... x outs... I bet there are a bunch of goodies in those bins.

> How long before some numbnuts asks about Valks
> with Leopard bottoms?

Someone would have to be really stupid (or just trolling) to ask that question.

Hey Dave whats new for October?CE pumpkin Rocs?

No, just DX pumpkin Rocs.

Somebody asked that exact question at the SoCal Store/Trailer this weekend! (VL Valk question.)

Here is a question for ya Dave, when is Bobby Musik gonna be on team innova?? That guy is tearing it up, and I know he is doing it with INNOVA right?? Can't wait to get back to Cali to play with that kid!
Rob Shipman

Hi Rob. Bobby is a sponsored player, but he is not a touring player. Bobby also works at Innova.

Wow, I wasn't aware of that! I was just looking at the Innova web page. Man I remember playing with that guy when he was maybe 13......if ya get a chance tell him I said Hi and congrats!!

Hey Dave----Do the molds for the Pumpkin or DX change ever?I throw A DX Roc and since the KCs are in different molds do the DX molds ever change or not and if not,will you keep changing around the KCs? Wheres the CE Gremlins?Havent seen em yet.

chase, the Pumpkins are picked from orange stock, so I don't know what they are picking. The DX Roc molds have changed, but we are using the more stable version now. Champion Gremlins are going to have to wait until after USDGC as we will be short staffed until then.

Dave,
I have noticed that the Vikings that I am getting at the tourny's (dyed) are a little diff. from the ones I got originally. My O.G. Vikes seem to have fine ridges on the top side of the disc, (sounds kinda like a zipper when you pet it ;)
Anyway, I have noticed that these are a lot more stable than the Vikes without the fine ridges on them.. The Vikes w/o/ridges are <FONT COLOR="ff0000">����</FONT> near understable!! Whats up with this???? I like both, but am curious whats up??

PT BLING:

I noticed this also. I got 2 1st run Vikings the first week they came out that are pearl white and have the zipper sound when rubbed. They are both super flat tops almost looks like a Valkyrie top. I also just got 4 new Vikings just a few days ago and they have a dome to them on top. They must have been playing with the mold when they were producing runs.

Josh

Hi Dave
I have been throwing the Candy Cobra for a couple of weeks now; they fly nice almost like a SM Roc. I was wondering why there is a sharp like flasking edge on the bottom of the rims lip. It is rough on the fingers when thrown. Was this flasking left there for some sort of reason? Do I need to do something to remove this for the disc?
JB

PS it's on the candy Vipers have it too.

2004 CE Glo Rocshttp://www.pdga.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif?

Hey Jeff.

PT, the mold hasn't been changed, but the operators do mess with the settings when things start to go wrong. You don't get to see what the settings produce for an hour or so after the disc pops out of the machine. This means you don't really know all of what will happen to the fully set up disc, when you have to make adjustments. This produces variations.

Jeff, the Cobra and Viper molds are older and do produc a small flash that is too difficult to trim. It can be rubbed off with towel and a lot of elbow grease or with fine sandpaper.

Hey Dave, How's that "marble art" disc holding up? I had 2 that didn't stick, and was just wondering if yours was ok?

dave, a KC roc question....i was about to buy a KC roc in a local store a few days ago, but when i looked at the discs profile the dome was incredible. it looked like an XS dome except...bigger. this was the same for the 5-6 KC's that were in the store. i didnt buy one because i didnt want a roc that was possibly not the same as my other rocs. can you shed some light on this dave? do these fly differently? were these few discs just abnormailities or what?

Thanks Dave I'll try those options. I just hope it don't change the way they fly http://www.pdga.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif
JB

Dylan 2004 ce rocs? Email on the way!

Hey Jeff,
In my experience removing the flashing on a couple discs made them less stable. Could have just been those molds though.
Rob Shipman

That's what I am afraid of. Maybe I can start using tape, Jarvis does

Russel, it's holding up fine, thank you. The blue disc is hangin up right in front of me and has recieved many nice comments. The mini is in Sam's office.

ellis, there have been two different molds used for KCs. One produces very straight flying discs which are a little domier, and one produces overstable. We don't know which is preferred as yet. If the dome is more than a little, it is an abnormality, but I don't know what caused it. I would avoid those discs unless you like the old Ontario Rocs that glide and are straight to slightly unstable.

Thanks Dave- Thats to bad about the Gremlin.Short staffed?Dude, I havent worked since January,Ill work for plastic.Have a good one,im off to throw.

so are there 2 different molds used for 11x? or are all 11x the mold that produces a straight flight?

steven, all are straight type.

I find for removing the flashing part of the disc, you can simply place it down on your carpet,apply a little pressure and spin the disc a few times. This will remove the sharp edge(flashing) and leave a perfectly smoothed edge on the disc. No more cuts on the fingers! Works for me!

-m

Dave,
This may have been brought up before. I was thinking today about the fact you run discs in Cali. and Carolina right? So how come I've never seen a disc mold with Carolina origin? Do they have copys of your molds? And thinking aobut this I wondered if the discs from opposite sides of the country ever had noticable differences in shape, flight ETC. with all the variables that must be in place.
Rob Shipman

They only stamp discs in Rock Hill SC, not mold.

Rob, AJ is correct. But to answer your last question more completely: discs from opposite sides could have differences due to being shipped across country. East coast discs undergo multiple temperature and pressure changes before they arrive in Carolina. The little stickers you see on Candy discs now, are placed there to prevent a more drastic change that used to happen to these discs during shipping.

AH HA,
I expected something on that lines. I thought the molds would be quite expensive to have multiple sets. If I'm not being to nosey, why wouldn't ya just stamp everything in Ca. and then ship?

Rob

Custom hotstamping and lack of stamping capacity. The East coast also does bottom side stamping and color process. They do a lot more than we do.

.

Cool,
thanks for the insite Dave.
cheers!
Rob

Dave, what are the chances of getting a beadless Rhyno to replace the Tank? I love the Rhyno and the Tank, but I like the straighter flight of the latter for most putts, especially longer ones. The current soft Rhyno plastic would be perfect.

In CE plastic?

dave--what are the chances of getting another super roc in the plastic that millinium uses alot for the jls and ls? i know this has been asked a # of times--but i noticed that alot of pros and masters guys still use them. they are w/o a doubt my fave roc. they could be se fundraisers or whatever. normal production would be huge. i believe they would sell like nobodys business. for a lot of us, the feel of the disc is one of the most important factors in getting a good solid release, and while champion and dx work well for the most part--i will regularly go to millinium or discraft x plastic for that perfect grip in some situations. just curious and thanks again

oh yea dave--same for the se t-bird

steven, both good ideas, but we don't have a source of that plastic right now. Maybe in the future.

maybe the millinium drivers i've seen lately are older? i think the ls run was 1.16

Allright, Dave. I've held off as long as I can. My stack of putters is more beaten than I prefer, and I'm having trouble finding re-placements.

What's the story with soft ryhno? When they first came out they were nice and flat, a little bit overstable, and with the plastic feeling very much like the first (later introduced, rubbery) jk aviars. I bought 5, then found the Ching tank and bought 5 of those. Nice and flat with what feels like the same plastic. Except for the bead they feel and fly the same for me.

The next (?) run was domey and with a completly differant feel, slicker and much less durable. I only bought 2 of these and have relegated them to the bag I keep for my beginner dgers friends.

What's the chance of the flatter, rubberey, run of Soft Ryhnos being run soon?

And,

Do (or did) you press the discs for Ching? Are they still in the disc buisness or just the baskets and stamps?

Thanks again.

(if you are willing to press an x2 I would make the whole bag innova)

steven, we just did a run of millennium drivers, pretty much with the last of the plastic. We are looking for more.

joel, the next Soft Rhynos will be rubbery. We don't make discs for Ching any more. That was Ching's decision. We still get calls for all the Ching discs.

Thank you, I will be on the lookout!

I agree, the first run Soft Rhynos was probably the best. Even the last one seems a little too stiff for my taste.

What I would really like is a Soft Rhyno in the gummy soft CE Plastic (maybe 168g) /clipart/smile.gif

I just bought a DX Rhyno, and I've found there's truth in advertising (and on this board). My first throw with the disc, I nailed a birdie from about 40-50 ft. out. The next two holes, I missed similar birdie shots by mere inches. This disc really does go exactly where you throw it.

Now, a few days later, that has started to annoy me. Because I've found that the times I slightly misjudge, or flub some part of my release, far outnumber the times I'm dead on. My question is, when is someone going to come out with a disc that goes not exactly where you throw it, but where you MEANT to throw it?

I mean really. Give the people what they want.


Kidding, of course. Innova is a minority in my bag, but the Rhyno is a pretty amazing disc.

Like no other, period.
Gotta have my DX for short drives, gotta have my SE for spike approaches and headwind putts!

I was down to 2 brand new SE Rhynos that I haven't thrown so I picked up one of the new Pro Rhynos. Only trusted them in casual rounds thus far, but they seem to fly immediately like a broken in SE Rhyno. Not sure I like the feel as much as the older SE flatter Rhynos though.

Any other Rhyno throwers that have used the new rubbery ones a lot?

Ack!! Is the fire threatening Innova discs?

LOS ANGELES (AP) � Flames pushed by 25 mph and higher winds jumped ridges and roads on a march toward Rancho Cucamonga early Friday. Thousands in the region were evacuated and two major freeways closed.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2003-10-24-calif-fires_x.htm

Dave, is this close? Any chance of your factory being in danger?

LOS ANGELES (AP) � Flames pushed by 25 mph and higher winds jumped ridges and roads on a march toward Rancho Cucamonga early Friday. Thousands in the region were evacuated and two major freeways closed.

rancho fires (http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2003-10-24-calif-fires_x.htm)

Oh no! Buy Innova discs now before they all become collector's items or melted globs of goo.

Dan, yes it is very close. It has been raining ash for two days and the plume goes all the way down past La Mirada, at least forty miles. No sun at all today. The fire is just above the freeway which is a couple of blocks above my house, and is closed to traffic. No danger to any of us but it kinda looks like it has been snowing. The people north of the freeway have been evacuated. No containment yet.

Hope everyone stays safe. Our prayers are with you.

Good luck Dave-If you need to store anything at my house let me know.Illinois needs a Innova plant.Stay safe or we will have real Firebirds.

Hi Dave
What are the chances of making the Stingray out of the same CE plastic that the Cobras at the Worlds were made of? They are awesome.

Hi Jeff, the Stingray has a different mass and would require a much higher filler to make it heavy enough. We have done some in the past that were okay, but not something we were proud of. We will try it again at some point before next spring.

Please let me know when that might be a happening, I'm in for a dozen or more.

Dave, I don't mean to keep hasseling you about this, but can we expect soft jk aviars to be returning to our local disc seller's stores anytime soon? Also -- will there be a new stamp so we can tell them apart from those stiff 4 times (like the new pro rhyno)?

Thanks.

AJ., I took the stiff ones out of stock about two weeks ago. Since then everything coming from here should have been the softer kind. I am not sure about the stamp, but you can definitely tell from the feel.

Are they going to be similar to the 3x?

They are similar to the first two runs. They have the 4x stamp on them. I have been using them for quite a while. I have only used the first run and this run for any length of time. This run is a little more durable than the first, but fly the same.

Dave,

Are you still producing discs in Rancho Cucamonga? I beleive they have problems with forest fires there. I hope everyone is O.K.

discinterested, we are fine, thank you. The fire has passed and left lots of ash and smoke. Some people are still evacuated, and schools are closed today, but I believe everything is getting back to normal.

so what comes next, the floods or the earthquake?

Russell,

Next is the new disc, the "Locust" /msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif

Mudslides follow mega-fires, Russell. Aren't you paying attention to history? /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

What about the Frogs?

The Frogs came after The Clouds and The Wasps.

I went up into the mountains just now on my mountain bike. Practically everything north of the housing developments is burned. I rode up into the mountains to where there used to be a beautiful spring with trees all around a meadow. It is all toast. Everything is toast. All the animals are dead or gone. I saw one crow at the begining of my ascent through hell. No gnats, no flies, no bees, even though there is an apiary nearby. Lots of dead rodents and squirrels. The occasional odd bush was spared at least partially where one side was cooked but not burned, and the other was green. I rode for miles and didn't see any area that was spared. Just the housing developments below. That is good but could have been different if the Santa Ana winds had kicked up a day or so earlier. I think the houses in our area fared pretty well compared to some of the other areas which are still burning. Some of the areas I rode through were positively surreal. I rode along a flood control levee which controls mountain rain channels. The river rocks in one of the channels were a marble like mix of unburned and seared rocks with stumps of bushes sticking up. Quite twilight zone. Yes floods are probably next. That is what the flood control channels are anticipating. Homes right next to the fire are quite expensive. A high ticket price to watch mother nature close up. Fires, floods, and yes earthquakes too. The San Andreas fault is only a few miles to the north and is way overdue for a show. Stay tuned.

Pictures out of Scripps Ranch were equally surreal. Picture raging wildfire footage, only the scene is a suburban street with burning houses down both sides. I think they lost 160 or 260 homes in that area.

Palm trees are no good. They said they were exploding. The tops would catch fire and then the winds would blow the burning bits in through the attic vents to burn down houses with fire-proof tiles.

Dave,
I recently read somewhere on the internet that you have a Ph.D. Is that correct? If so, what is it in and what was your dissertation title?

Rhett, I heard the rocks were exploding.
Lots of smoke and ashe here in O'side.
Has anyone heard if Mission Trails Golf &amp; Disc course survived.

So, is it Dr. Dave? Enquiring minds want to know.

Dave, i have noticed that on the last few champion discs i've bought that there is a little white sticker on the bottom rim. What is the reason for it. thanks.

> What is the reason for it.

By Dave Dunipace on Saturday, October 11, 2003 - 06:02 am:

discs from opposite sides could have differences due to being shipped across country. East coast discs undergo multiple temperature and pressure changes before they arrive in Carolina. The little stickers you see on Candy discs now, are placed there to prevent a more drastic change that used to happen to these discs during shipping.

but how does this work?

steven, the stickers provide a small air gap to equalized pressure between discs. Without the stickers, air in the space between discs would get heated, or become relative pressurized by altitude and go out of the spaces. Later, when cooled or going down in altitude, the air would try tro return, but couldn't as the bottom of one disc would stick to the top of the next. It doesn't necessary affect the top discs in the box, but the extra pressure of the top discs on the lower discs makes the problem worse. The result often was concave flight plates. Some would return to normal after a while, some would not. Not good.

too cool! nice detective work.

yea---way to go Dave

Dave, any plans to make a DX Viking?
All the distance records have been set with DX-type plastic, right? Whether Innova or Discraft?

Circle 2, yes to the DX Viking. By the beginning of the year. I don't know the answer to the distance question. In our case yes.

Discraft X plastic held at least a couple, Chris Voigt: 217.05 m, with a Discraft XS, and before that Stokely with an XL i think...

They were both the elite versions, not the pro d base models.

Dave, what is the next disc you'll be making in champion plastic. thanks.

regular production roc maybe?

I (and probably a few others) hope so.

paul, I'm going to try the Stingray again.

Dave, do you think you may ever come out with Champion plastic Gators?

A champion Stingray would be the coolest disc on the planet. It would also compliment the champion Cobra that has a dedicated, warm, fuzzy spot in my bag. I'll cross my fingers for you, Dave, thanks for trying this one again.

> regular production roc maybe?

Don't hold your breath waiting. A regular production Roc in champion plastic is likely to undercut seriously the demand for USDGC CE Rocs, and consequently, financial support for the USDGC. After all, how many people are going to pay $25 for one USDGC-stamped CE Roc if they can buy 2 vanilla "Innova Swoosh"-stamped Champion Rocs for the same money?

Well, now that this has popped up here . . .

Felix, thanks for the explanation about the candy Rocs.

What I still don't understand is, why not make more of the fundraiser discs? It seems to me someone could come up with a "yearly demand" number that would represent the most CE Rocs they could sell in one year without saturating the market and hurting sales of future editions. By producing this number every year, Innova could maximize financial support for the USDGC and keep the hungry mobs happy.

I don't know how this plays out with the tax deductions, as I couldn't get the IRS web site to work.

Dusty, I do think we will do a least one limited production run. I really like the DX Gator and have doubts about the Champion version. Too bouncy. But we'll see.

The Roc needs to have value intrinsically and as a collector disc. That's why the numbers are limited. Next year's issue may be larger, to accommodate the increased demand, but will still be small enough to maintain the collector value. It doesn't seem to be enough for the buyer to know and take pride in the fact that he is helping to make the USDGC great.

i take pride in helping usdgc, and am willing to pay the $, but would like to throw the ce roc and therefore need backups. it is just weird that the most popular disc in the sport is only available in the cheapest plastic. maybe if you find anymore millinium [se] plastic you could at least give us the se roc. not complaining, as i throw the roc more than any other disc and keep 4 in my bag---it just gets frustrating. especially with the wasps out there now. i hate to go that route though. as long as they do not make x-wasps a reg. production item [to act as a se roc] we are okay. thanks again dave for the great products

We will probably do all of our models at least once in the future. The near future, I am not sure yet. I think I mentioned Gator, but not sure if it went to this new forum, which I am very shakey with as yet.

Good news on a possible Gator! In my opinion the Gator is one of those discs that is highly underated. Just curious what you mean by, to bouncy?

I like the way my DX Gator hits the ground and dies after a small bounce. Candy plastic doesn't die when it hits generally, more often it has a tendency to bounce or skip.

I can't log on, and it's doing weird things, so please bear with me for now. Dave D

no Problem Dave, we won't hold it against you. Haha

Josh
WiDiscGolf (http://www.widiscgolf.com)
josh@widiscgolf.com

Thanks Dave. I couldn't figure it out either so I just started over.

Well Dave, how about seeing a Gator in the Pro plastic, like the Roc, and Whippet. Personally, I've never liked midrange discs in the floppy stuff, but a nice, stiff Gator could be fun.

:o:confused: :cool::p ;)

Just me.

Ryan, scroll back a page or two. The post where I asked the same question got deleted in the switch, but Dave's answer is there.

I saw the post about the candy gators, but not the pro ones. I am way to lazy to scroll back more than a few pages, if you see it, could you quote it for me? Thanks

Ryan, You are right, I guess I did ask about Champion Gators rather than Pro. I'm still confused after the name changes. Pro Gators were what I was thinking also.

:confused:holy cow that was tough getting on <font color="orange"> </font> just a test. Location denial. I guess that means you are traveling in Egypt. :p

Dave, how's Egypt? :D

Discette was there. It said so in her profile. Location: In denial.

Sorry Dave, thought you were on an expidetion, looking for new plastics :D
Anything new for the holidays, for all us good little boys and girls?

Rob, I am always looking for new plastics. We may have a couple of new releases in Champion plastic. The Whippet for sure, the Gator maybe. These probably won't be mainline, but they will be available. Working on one or two new for next year.

OOOOOOOooooo........GATOR!!!!

I need to make a Christmas list :D

Dave,
I caught the answer to this a month or two ago but don't remember what it is. When are you guys releasing the Starfire as a regular production disk? Early next year is what I think you said. Do you have a planned release date (or month even)?
Kurt

Kurt, the Starfire will remain a fundraiser into next year.

Bummer......glad I have one!!

not a prefered color, but its max weight....(dark purple)

maybe you'll finally get me to switch from the pegasus to the whippet... i still have 6 new ones and 14 broke in just right, so maybe in 2010...

Dave --
A big thanks for making the Champion Aero as part of the production line... I don't know if they are exactly the same as my CE Aero, but at least I don't have to sweat the potential replacement. Excited about that Candy Whippet too, that will be regular production, right ? When can we expect to see it ?

aj, the Champion Whippet will be run as often as we need it. But I doubt it will be a regular production. It will be available through regular channels, but won't be listed on our literature. We have plans for more of this type run in the future.

You make me so happy :D :D :D

Just want to see if my picture worked.

Dave,
Hope you don't mind I borrowed this one from Innova :D

Not at all Rob. It looks better than the one I posted.

I sure wish I had some non-white 3x JK aviar-x's, those were sweet... extra rare though.

Dave:

A bit of an off-the-wall question: Is there any chance the Jaguar will ever be made again? It is a great disc for beginners, and just plain fun to throw from time to time. I am not begging for a CE plastic version, just some DX would be wonderful.

Thanks.

Karl Nehring

Karl, there is a good chance we will. I am not sure of the schedule right now, but as soon as possible. Problem is weight more than anything else. The range is very broad. I can't make many, so I have to guess which weights would be most in demand at this point. Maybe you could help me with that.

Dave:

Although I usually throw lighter weights, I suspect the Jaguar would be most useful and popular in heavier weights. The one I used to throw was 180 grams, as I recall. I would think the 175-185 range would be well received. I can't recall what he upper limit was, but it seems that it was pretty high because of the large diameter.

Just a quick aside: I once threw my Jag on hole #6 at Hoover/Hambrick on a windy day. It turned over, caught the wind, and started rolling like crazy. It then hit a tree at full-tilt-boogie rolling speed -- and then proceeded to climb right up the trunk! Craziest thing you ever saw -- it just rolled right up the trunk (not a very large-diameter tree, which made it look even crazier) about 8-10 ft or so before flipping back out into the air and eventually coming to rest in the fairway. A friend playing with me spontaneously shouted out -- "look at that dang cat climb that tree!" and we all had a great laugh. You can't help but have a nostalgic longing for a tree-climbing disc like that...

-- Karl Nehring

Dave,
I have a SKULL stamped DX Valk. Just how small of a run was it as i have not seen very many others?
THANX
:cool:

sfsdgolf, that is a hotstamping decoration. I don't deal with that sort of thing. It could have been stamped out here or on the east coast. The number stamped could have been as little as 25. Sorry, I couldn't help.

Thanx for the quick answer Dave. Just one more have a X-MAS Stamped Disc from "95" It seems to be Candy Plastic is this a possiblity? VERY LIGHT WEIGHT RED DISC

THANX

sfsdgolf, I don't think it is Candy. It wouldn't be light, and is too early too (95), I believe. If it weighs less than 150gms, I would say no for sure.

Dave,

I know we ask questions about plastic a lot on here. I was looking through some bins of plastic and saw some more opaque candy they were banshees. The reason I ask is they had a much nicer grippier feel.
I almost bought one but do not really throw banshees. I would like and feel like Teebirds and Firebirds in this opaque plastic would be real nice.
I remember when the 11X teebirds came out I saw an opaque red one.
let me know if this is even possible today.
Thanks in advance.
ce

Dave I have been throwing the SE valkyries for turnovers and rollers and I have been informed that they are no longer in production. Although, My kids have been digging through my stacks of extra disc and made me aware that I have a SE leopard so I went to throw it and it seems to be overstable.:confused: I thought the Leopards were made to be understable? Is it the plastic that makes it overstable or do I need to just break it in a bit? Your response would be greatly appreciated...

bandsagger, we are currently looking for a new source of that plastic. I don't see why we can't reproduce those when/if the plastic comes in.

Mr. Pookie, that plastic usually makes the disc less stable, but there are variations in the plastic and molding. It should be possible to break that disc in over time and it will be a good roller anyway. Once broken in, it wil probably last longer than usual too, because of the starting shape.

[quote I have a SKULL stamped DX Valk. Just how small of a run was it as i have not seen very many others?

[/QUOTE]

If it's a full-color stamp, it's a Ching-stamped Valk. I've fished at least 10 skull-stamped DX discs of various models out of the waters around here. It used to be a one of Ching's stock stamps, so it's probably not all that rare.

Dave, I got a DX Roc in my player's pack at VPO last weekend. This DX is VERY grippy. Is this something new? It feels great.

kid roc, it may not be new, it may just be a softer type which is grippier.