Not sure if this has been addressed. I love the Pro Starfire, but generally throw 150-160g in my drivers depending on mold. Even at the lightest I could locate 168g I am pushing my 160g Ch Orcs. What's the chance of seeing Pro Starfires in the 150-160g range in the near future? As always, thanks so much.

Parkntwoputt, the new candy material will allow us to make lighter weights without having them become too gummy and flat.

But I love the gummy 150-class candy!!! :D

riverdog, right now, the Pro Starfires go down to 165-166gms. We do have a new plastic that we might be able to use with Pro for lighter weights. If it happens, it wouldn't be for a month or so.

Hey dave, (or anyone else) Do you remember what run of CE Valkyries came in Black?I have a black CE valk that really looks to be a first run .Its got the Flashing all around,puddle dimple and all.Its exactly like my Blueberry Valks. its clearly not a Dye. how scarce are these Black CE Valks?

good day. Dave

do u have any more plans for floating discs.
I like the hydra, the dragon is to lite. need a roc like mold.

rim bubbles????/

k henseler

Hey dave, (or anyone else) Do you remember what run of CE Valkyries came in Black?I have a black CE valk that really looks to be a first run .Its got the Flashing all around,puddle dimple and all.Its exactly like my Blueberry Valks. its clearly not a Dye. how scarce are these Black CE Valks?



CE I may have another test for you. Check the model marking and weight on back. Every first run I've owned, seen and have heard about has a distinguished way of marking these.

1st runs will have just the weight written in the small center production circle and the model will be out of the circle. Some of the first of the 2nd runs were marked this way as well. 3rd runs and beyond had both the model and weight written in that same circle.

While this may not be an exact science, it is the only way I've seen 1st runs marked. Flashing appeared on later runs though it was not as plentiful as did the puddle dimple.

This is merely my opinion and has not been confirmed by Innova.

No plans for any right now although we might come out with a driver type in the future.

No plans for any right now although we might come out with a driver type in the future.

Hi Dave,

Were you aware that (some) Bulldogs float in water? I threw one (175g) in the creek at UNC on an approach the other day, and by the time I arrived at the spot it went in, it was floating out in the middle about 20' downstream. :eek: Thought at first that there might have been an air pocket trapped under the disc due to the angle at which the disc landed, but of curiosity, I pushed it completely under the surface and tipped it to release any trapped air (there was none) and it bobbed back up to the surface when I released it! :eek: :eek: Tried dunking my other two Bulldogs in a tub of water after I got home, and both popped right back up.

I know that Bulldogs aren't designated as floating in water on the Innova website, so I;m wondering whether that's to be expected or mine are anomalous. (Not that I'm going to go around tossing them in the water intentionally, in either case. :))

Felix, we were aware that Bulldogs float up to about 173gm but didn't want to advertize that because they don't all float. Additionally, the contents of the water body can influence how well the disc floats.

I belive the thread got deleted in this sever malfunction that the forum is currently having, but someone had posted something about "night shift" starfires that they had seen at a tournament. Could the person that found these please tell me more about these discs.

Also, Dave, by chance will we see more champion discs in the "special blend", either CFR or regular production?

Everybody loves the gummy lightweight plastic.
At least everyone I've talked to about it.

Is it true that the Candy Sting Rays have been discontinued?
There is a website that is selling candy sting rays at fairly high prices saying they are collectable because Innova stopped production in January of 2005.
There was some mention of difficulty with consistency in their manufacture or some such.
Is any of the above true?

It is all true. I did pick up two at 172 at Wrightlife recently and they have not raised their price on the champion stingrays yet. I checked a number of vendors I don't think many have raised their prices yet but good luck getting your preferred weight. I number of places had inventories such as "150 and 178" that's it. Good luck they are sweet control discs.

further, we will have more from time to time, but as they can cause confusion between Pro and Champion, we are trying to develop a similar formula for clear colors.

Blarg, it's all true. They were a nightmare to produce. We could produce flattop Stingrays in candy, but the original won't work.

Was wondering if the CFR Starfires are the same mold as pros? Also, heard there were 3 diff molds? How do you tell? When did the new mold come out? Are ALL 2005 stamped discs the new mold? Thanks!

Dave, I was wondering what ever happened to the puma I assume it's out of production, I was however wondering what the flight stats were, and what other innova disc is the closest to the puma mold?

Roc Steady, the Original Candy Starfire was altered slightly after the initial run. The current version will remain the same. The Pro Starfire is the L version. It's very diffficult to tell between the two candy versions, but fairly easy to distinguish between the candy and Pro versions. The Pro version has a straighter beveled edge. I don't know if all 2005 CFR stamped discs are the current version, but most likely are. All of the Pros are one version.

vandal, the Puma is out of production. We discontinued it as it was not selling well at the time. The mold is similar to a Panther with a Thumtrac. The flight is probably most similar to a cross between a Spider and a Panther. The flight numbers would be 5, 3, -1, +1.

Thanks for reply Dave. This is most interesting. This is the first time ive seen an L version in a "flippier" plastic. What is th reason? So the CFR is quite a bit more stable then? Does it fly farther than the ORC and still maintain that strait path with a bit of hyser at the end? Maybe I should try a CFR in lighter weight? It would seem im looking for the pro mold in CFR plastic. Would you make one just for me?

Hi Dave,
did you have anything to do with the development of the new Millenium Orion? If so, what kind of a driver is it?

Roc Steady, we use the L versions in Pro because the hold up to abuse better in the L configuration. The CFR Starfire doesn't necessarily fly farther than an Orc, but it will hold a line better into a wind, and go just as far. The L version in CFR is a potential, but it hasn't been discussed at Innova yet.

m100forever, yes, I designed it for Millennium. It is a very long straight flyer akin to the JLS but straighter and longer. It has some turn if thrown very hard into a headwind, but it is still very readable and long. Like the JLS, it has a combination of characteristics including glide, speed, and small low speed fade, that make it very useful in many situations.

Dave,

Is the Orion a wide rimmed driver like the Beast family, or is the rim like the TeeBird family?

Hawk, It's a 'tweener. It's in the Sidewinder family.

Thanx Dave, :)
which plastic will it be run in?

Kjell, it is in Millennium/Pro type plastic.

Hi Dave, I have a few questions for you. What plastic was used for Champion Eagles, with the KC sig, newest Innova stamp? I recently got 2 175g. and they were both solid opaque. They feel like Special blend or night shift Orc type plastic, not the regular Champion. Thanks as always.

chase, could be either of the two you describe. If they are blue, red or yellow, they could be special blend.

will there be any night shift orcs produced in the future?? or other discs in the special blend plastic..??

esalazar, yes, we just have to make sure that they don't get misstamped, or we don't confuse the end customer, as they look very much like Pro.

sweet!! thanx dave!! i would like a fat stack of those please!! :D:Dwow that was a quick response!!!

Post deleted by circle_2

dave, just curious if you ever got to test the candy ram? or if there are any plans for a champion or CFR ram? thanks again :)

Dave, what kind of differences in technique are required for throwing a slower type driver such as a Tee Bird vs a faster type driver such as a Valkyrie for 'golf' distance? I chose these two as these were/are the only two discs to travel over 800' in a distance competition. (I'm guessing both Jarvis and Sandstrom did a 360 degree spinning drive technique.)

Also, can you add any pertinent info re: the newer/faster discs (ie Beast, Orc, Starfire) for us folks still trying to crack a 400' average? The Pro Starfire seems to be the bomb! Thanks again, Dave.
Doc

chase, could be either of the two you describe. If they are blue, red or yellow, they could be special blend.



They are red. And I have seen blue and yellow, and they all share the opaque properties.

Thanks Dave. Heres a little tougher one. When the CE Spiders came out there were 2 stamp versions, both Star Stamped, only one had a full circle around the star, the other had TWO circles surronding the star. It was told to me that the stamp with the second inner ring was a second run. I now have noticed the same pattern on the star stamped Sidewinders. My question is: Is this just a stamp variant or is this of relevance in determining run #s ? Thank you Sir.

Hey Dave... the Innova website says that the Orc goes down to 160g. I have in my bag a 150g champ Orc... it's pretty fun. Doesn't fly like an orc at all, but I use it for thumbers and grenades.

Are you guys going to try to make more at 150, or is that just silly b/c it's "not really an Orc" at such low weights.

thanks

Chase, just a stamp variant.

Jaymo, I doubt that is a Champion Orc if it really is 150 gms. The lowest I have seen was about 158 gms. It may have been marked wrong or written poorly. We have recently gotten a lighter Champion plastic that will allow lower weights in the future, but even then, I don't think the Orcs will go down that far.

Dave do you draw your die on a cad program or anything of that nature?

Yeah... who knows... I weighed it at school on an analytical balence and it's more ike 153g but it has an "O" on the bottom, so maybe it's just a freak

thanks anyways Dave

matchu, yes. CAD-CAM

very interesting.....
if you ever need some drafting don't hesitate to ask. I have been for 10 years

I threw Champion Orcs for distance at VA States last weekend. 2 Xouts 149 & 150 & 3 non Xouts 154, 154, & 154 (all weighed on calibrated lab balance). All were factory marked 150 on the underside.

Sounds like some more night shift Orcs to me! :D

Paul sorry didn't see this post earlier. We haven't done any testing on the candy Ram as yet. Not scheduled at all at this time.

sorry Circle 2, I didn't see this post either. To answer the question: Generally, the faster the driver, the more critical the nose angle is. The TeeBird is slightly less nose sensitive than the Valkyrie. The Orc, Beast, Starfire, Monster are the most nose sensitive, meaning: you need to get the nose down or you will exaggerate the low speed overstability and hurt your distance and accuracy. The best tip I can give you for keeping the nose down, is to whip late as possible with an open wrist. Also make sure your disc comes through your swing high under your chin so that you don't pull up at the whip.

I also have an X-out Champion Orc, marked as 150. It is a very useful disc, but not what I expected. It is as flippy as my 150 Champion Valks, but faster (and thus slightly longer).

Are you planning to shift all Champion lines to the SB plastic? What molds will you be running the SB plastic in first? And, any plans on making a CFR Starfire-L? The Pro SF-L is such a sweet disc!

Thanks!

Kenja we don't have any specific plans regarding the SB, but we are trying to get more colors that do the same thing to the mix. We already did make some CFR Ls. They will be available through the CFR program soon.

cfr-L? sign me up, my same-weight champion sidewinder is more stable now than my pro-starfire, of course i didnt smack a power pole two nites in a row with my sidewinder :eek:
the cfr starfire from last year is still going strong....

Dave,

The "first run" Pro Aviars from last year, are there still a bunch kickin around? hav eyou guys made any new runs, ones that don't have the "first run" written on them?

Are you going to make a new run anytime soon, with the newer plastic?

thanks :D

Jaymo, we have only made one run of Pro Aviars. There are still a bunch around, but I don't know what they have written on them. We are not scheduled to make a new run soon.

Zonedriven has some Pro Aviars with Zonedriven stamp. I'm using one now, very nice.

Dave,

I've heard several players refer to discs like the Beast as being overstable. Is a disc considered overstable or understable based on how much low speed fade it has, or how much high speed turn it has? A Beast at -2 turn would seem understable on one hand, but the +3 fade would seem overstable.

Dave, have you guys had any SB sidewinders run? I think that is what I have.

Also -- Can you or will you re-release the gremlin?!? Granted, its hard for Innova to release a midrange that can compete with everyone's favorite, the ROC, but the Gremlin NEEDS to be around! I need some more! Even if they are CFR, please make em!

i agree. gremlins rock, it's just too bad they're so hard to find now. i think there would be a considerable demand for them in the cfr program. :)

Hawk,

Yeah I feel the same as you do. While I try not to base my descriptions on disc by manufacturers ratings rather my own experiences. I agree that the Beast has more high speed turn and more low speed fade then lets say the Orc. I carry both in my bag. For me the go about the same distance, just that the Orc has a straighter flight path then the Beast. I say the Beast is understable. Our course pro says the Beast is overstable because of the amount of fade.

I think Dave will explain the way the discs are intended but everyone has their own interpretations. I think the fact that most of the faster throwers down here throw Orcs instead of Beasts proves their stability as being less stable.

If this helps, hopefully it did not confuse anyone else.

Hawk, as you say there are two different stability types. High speed turn, and low speed overstability. The Beast would not be considered an overstable disc just because of the low speed overstability. Practically every disc, and certainly every driver, has some low speed over stability. The term should probably be "fade" instead of "overstable". The label "overstable driver" is usually used for discs like Monsters, Firebirds, Rams, Whippets, Vipers etc.

aj, what type of Gremlin are you interested in? Probably the only ones we would do in a limited run would be candy. I don't remember any SB Sidewinders being run.

hi dave,
whats the difference between the plastic in the old SE valkyries, and the old early run 4x JK Pro valkyries with the 'bar stamp'?

Thanks Dave.

Next question. Would you consider the Classic Roc more stable than the Spider? I see that the ratings for the Spider have been updated to -1/+1 while the Classic Roc is listed as 0/+2.

Thanks.

pro line/champion gremlins would be great. the dx are ok, but they beat up too quickly and lose their predictability. i'd buy a few if they came out as cfr discs :D

I don't know about CFR but a limited run with a cool stamp would work!

toolniz, Sorry, I don't remember when we switched the plastic, but at some point, we went from the SE, which was a Pro type plastic, to the JK Pro Valk in candy plastic. I don't remember if we did it on the first run or not, but I think we did. Although the plastic could have been opaque, it was probably candy anyway.

Hawk, yes the Classic is more stable, especially since the mold was cleaned up about a year ago to fly like the original release. Over the years, the Classic was becoming more and more like the XD. The clean up took care of that. They are now very distinct, like the originals. As for the low speed overstability numbers; the +2 for the Roc is probably more like a +1.5, but we don't use half numbers.

Dave, thanks for the SF info. I went and got another one. When I hold up the 2 CFR's together, one edge looks like a teebird T at the top of its rim (where the bottom rim sweeps up to meet the outer edge)-same shape/sweep, but with no tiny little bead, though. The other meets the top edge like a TL. Could you tell me which is witch? Funny, i was first noticing a possibly SLIGHT difference in the bottom edge of the rim and was thinking about what u said bout how hard it was to tell the difference, then i tryed the simple T-TL edge pinch rub test that quickly tells the diff bet T's and TL's and now its simple to tell between these. BUT, both discs are newer and i don't know. I would guess based in the line -holding qualities you gave the 2nd run that the teebird-like one is the 2nd run. Any help?

Roc Steady, it sounds like you have it right. The TeeBird like edge is the current CFR Starfire. The other has been discontinued, however the new Pro Starfire version is more like the TL and easier to tell the difference.

This must explain why the 2004 Texas Teams Starfire I have looks nothing like the 200? Birmingham Tax Tourney Starfire I also own.

When I was given the Texas Team disc, I did not know what it was and did not have the opportunity to throw it for 3 days. On the rim it looked closest to a Beast, nothing like an Orc, and not really close to my other Starfire. But it flew like a Starfire, if not it is the MOST overstable Beast I have ever thrown.

Dave, do you know if the 2004 Texas Team disc is a Starfire? I could not find any writing on the bottom.

Parkntwoputt, no I don't. Sorry.

hey dave, what plastic is used for the CFR eagle?

Hey Parkntwoputt, Yes it is Starfire. I have two of them with texas team stamped. It is nice! :D

Hey Parkntwoputt, Yes it is Starfire. I have two of them with texas team stamped. It is nice! :D



Thanks

Dave -- CANDY (proline as they were called) Gremlins are what I need. They are the LONGEST, and straightest midrange I have ever thrown and I am down to the one in my bag with 3 aces on it being my last one. It'd be nice it they went back into regular production, as they just started to catch on as a "hot disc" more recently. If you make them, money will come.

Thanks for taking time out of your busy schedule for us.

Greets, Dave

Could you tell me if there is a difference and if so, what between teebirds marked with CA and those with CAL?

RocSteady... if i remember correctly that is the 2 different runs of the TB... the TL is a seperate mold..
The earlier Champion Runs i think were with the CAL mold and the 11x was the CA mold.. THe newer champion molds i believe are CA now..
I haven't noticed a difference between the 2 molds though. Only difference that i have noticed is between the TL and the TB(for obvoius reasons)

-Scott Lewis

On a sidenote..
Dave..
You guys at innova should make a Pulsar or other type of ultimate/frisbee disc in Champion Plastic.. That would be sweet.

-Scott Lewis

i wonder if it would skip better. sounds awsome to me...hurry up and make it.

On a sidenote..
Dave..
You guys at innova should make a Pulsar or other type of ultimate/frisbee disc in Champion Plastic.. That would be sweet.

-Scott Lewis



Scott,

Wouldn't those platters be a bit too slippery when damp :confused:

On a sidenote..
Dave..
You guys at innova should make a Pulsar or other type of ultimate/frisbee disc in Champion Plastic.. That would be sweet.

-Scott Lewis



It would weight WAY too much...eurethyene runs really heavy.

call it a training device! :D

Dave, I wanted to thank you for all the work you put into making killer discs, infact with the exception of a z-wasp (can't afford to get Champ rocs up here in Canada) I am an innova user.

I have so many discs that I needed a bigger bag, so for christmas I got one. I already had the small starter bag, and that has lasted me well so I got the tour bag. Unfortunately, now it's falling apart.

I don't know if you have anything to do with the bag making, but I see that Innova put out a "new and improved" model for 2005, are there any significant changes, b/c I think I need to get a new bag soon :(

Thanks :)

Dave,

What is the "next big thing" you have coming out in disc designs this year? Any plans for a release anytime soon? If so, what plastic will it be available in?

Dear Jaymo -

Dave is playing at the Naional Tour Event in Augusta. The hotel did not have readily avaiable internet access, so it is unlikely Dave will review his thread before Monday. If it's okay, I will try and answer your post in his place.

We expereinced probelms with some of our Tour bags. The "new and improved" Tour Bags attempts to reduce the liklihood of siuations like yours. Please e-mail Sam Ferrans at the California office at [email protected] Sam will work with you on an equitable solution for your bag replacement.

You may also e-mail me at [email protected] if you have any questions.


Take care,
Harold

So is Innova doing a sudo-recall on the Tour bags??? Because the one I purchased also fell apart at the seams. I liked the bag but thought the durability was not so great. I still have the old bag in my basement and if i can get a discount on a new one or trade in the old one I would love to have this as a backup bag.

Dear Steve -

The problems with the tour bag have been sporadic. We have dealt with folks individually on a facts-and-circumstances basis. If the bag provided reasonable value, then a replacement would not be warranted. On the other hand, if a Tour bag fails quickly, like Jaymo�s apparently did, we are glad to work on an equitable solution. If you would kindly e-mail me at [email protected], I would be glad to review the facts and circumstances regarding your Tour Bag.

Take care.
Harold

Thanks ill do that as soon as i get home as i cant access email here at work.

Thank you

Was there ever a change in the DX plastic? I have quite a few DX rocs from around '99-01 and I see the plastic then was much more durable. Its almost like the DX rocs I have now are softer, plastic-wise where as the older DX rocs will hold their flight path MUCH better after wapping a few trees and wont get totally demolished after hitting one tree...

Hey Dave (or those who throw forehands alot),

What would make a better forehand disc, a Teebird or an Orc? I can get roughly 300ft from a flat, line drive forehand with my Orc. I was wondering if the extra stability of a Teebird (vs an Orc) would lend more distance for a forehand? I would appreciate any thoughts or experiences from you or anyone else...

Thanks!

Daniel

I could be wrong but I "think" an Orc is rated more stable than a Teebird therefore the Teebird would actually be a step down in the stability department.

I could be wrong but I "think" an Orc is rated more stable than a Teebird therefore the Teebird would actually be a step down in the stability department.


that would not be correct. the teebird is rated as 0 turn and 2 fade, whereas the orc is -1 turn (meaning it is more likely to anhyzer at high speed) and 3 fade (which means it will hyzer more at low speed). what this means is that you can put more "pop" on a teebird and there is less of a chance that you will flip it over (especially when throwing forehand). however, you will be sacrificing speed if you move down to the teebird. i would recommend learning to throw the orc with a hyzer release, since you'll probably get more distance that way. however, if you're looking for consistency, i'd stick with the teebirds, since that's really all i throw these days and i find them to be much more forgiving and likely to fly a straighter line.

I throw both teebirds and orcs forehand. While my furthest drive is with a broken in orc, I like to use teebirds in the under 350 range. That is about as far as I can put out a teebird. I haven't quite got the hang of consistantly throwing the orc a long way, but the hyzer flip is the way to do it. I used to throw valks sidearm from a hyzer, and they would make a gigantic s sll the way down the fairway. I have managed to snap one of the new pro starfires around 420 with a tailwind, though. They seem to be good forehand discs if you have good form, otherwise they turn over as soon as you release it.

Chris

Thanks for the replies. My gut feeling was that the TB would have more "float" to it as opposed to the high speed glide that the Orc has. I think I'm going to have to try the 'Birds out for my FH.

By the way--what are the "new" 11x teebirds like, the latest runs? I tried the clear ones when they first came out a few years ago and found them nasty overstable. Have they changed at all since then?

Thanks!

Daniel

if by "new 11X teebirds" you mean the champion teebirds, then yes they are quite stable to overstable. i like them for hyzer flips into a decent headwind or strong anhyzer release controlled drives if there isn't any wind (RHBH). they're not as fast as the 10X kc teebirds, but i can't remember a time when i flipped one over and lost it right, so they are a good disc to have around if you need something that will finish left. i would try one of the new pro teebirds if you like the feel of a teebird but don't care for the overstability, because they're much closer to one of the old kc teebirds out of the box (i'd stay away from the teebird-L though, cause they have a tendency to beat in and become a roller too fast). if you're throwing forehand, the champion teebird should suit you nicely. :)

Hi Dave. I have a question. Who determines X-outs? I have tons of X-outs, old CE and new Champion, but have never seen a worse disc than the Pro Line { original } Beast I picked up last week from Ebay. I really cant understand how this disc left the company. It is completely chewed up around the rim { I assume from a flashing remover?} I have a few Beasts that have mini dents/ chew marks, but this is far beyond that. I am so dissapointed in the quality, I am sending it back. It was not advertised that it was the worst Innova disc I have ever seen, and I am not stupid enough to hold you responsable. Im just confused how a disc of such poor quality could even leave the factory.

maybe it didn't look like that when it left the factory?

Beast I picked up last week from Ebay


i think you should redirect your question to Ebay.

Dave I'd like to know if there is a proline sidewinder in the works. The Champion one is a big hit with me, but am hoping a proline one would be a little less stable yet, easier to beat up, and perhaps more valuable to low-D ams.

toolniz, the CFR Eagle is made out of candy plastic with most of them being glo too.

greatzky, your answer on the ca cal TBird question was perfect, thank you. We couldn't make an Ultimate disc out of candy as it would be considerably over 200 gms. We could make a Zephyr however.

parkntwoputt, I don't know if you would call it a "big thing" or not, but we a presently working on making lower weight discs available in candy plastic.

ill4mation, we have been using different blends of DX, which has always been a blend of different plastics. We are always looking to increase the durability and maintain the grippiness of DX. They seem to work at cross purposes. If you are looking for a more durable DX Roc, look for a stiffer version of the Rancho Cucamonga with the straighter (more stable) edge.

Daniel, that is not a question I can answer definitively. It depends on your throwing style and speed. The Orc is faster, has less glide, more high speed turn, and more low speed fade. The TBird is more predictable and has more glide. If you need a higher speed disc that is just about as predictable as a TBird, try a CFR Starfire. It has the same feel in the hand as an Orc, the same speed, but is more predictable. If you throw turnover drives, you could try the Firebird. It's very predictable too, but it is an overstable flyer and not as fast as a Starfire. I personally use a candy Viking as it works for hyzers and turnovers and has pretty good predictability and distance. If you are looking for shear distance alone, I would try the Pro Starfire. It throws and feels roughly the same as an Orc at high speeds, but has a much longer/straighter glide. Neither the Orc, nor the Pro Starfire will hold up to much wind in the face without compensation. The Firebird, TBird, and CFR Starfire will.

Any thoughts on running a Pro Line Firebird in the F mold?
I really like the FL...

Thanks!

H2

kurt, I tried the Pro in a Sidewinder, and just like the Archangel, it didn't translate well into Pro. It ended up being too stable. We have a new plastic to try, however, and will give it a shot soon.

If that's the case, something must be wrong with me or my throwing! I found the stability of the three discs to be in this order (under to over): Teebird ---> Starfire ---> Orc. I think the Orc is the most predictable distance flyer there is (I only consider the Firebird/Monster to not truly be distance flyers because they are predictable but aren't necessarily used for maximum distance). If I'm going out to throw at an open hole, I use the most predictable disc. If it's not long (< ~330), I use the champ firebird because I know where it's going, and I can't turn it completely over...even if I'm off, I've probably got a chance at a putt. If it's long (> 340), I'm throwing the Orc most of the time, as it's got the most predictable flight for me for distance. Starfire, Teebird, and most of the others are more touchy. Is this normal for others? The Starfire out of the box is pretty overstable, but after a couple of weeks, it settles into it's role as a good distance driver.

chase, the individual molders are responsible for determining what constitutes an X part. It is only supposed to be cosmetic flaws. Also, our dealers can return any unsatisfactory parts back to us, so that any bad parts that make it by inspection, (and it does happen), can, and should be returned to us by the dealers. That part should never have made it to you.

We have a new plastic to try, however, and will give it a shot soon.



What's the new plastic? SB? A new Pro plastic?

chase, the individual molders are responsible for determining what constitutes an X part. It is only supposed to be cosmetic flaws. Also, our dealers can return any unsatisfactory parts back to us, so that any bad parts that make it by inspection, (and it does happen), can, and should be returned to us by the dealers. That part should never have made it to you.




Thanks Dave. I was only wondering what kind of system was used for determining X-outs. Stuff happens.

Beast I picked up last week from Ebay


i think you should redirect your question to Ebay.




I dont think I asked you anything.

stupid questions get stupid answers. you know that blemished discs are not supposed to reach the general public, so why waste others' time when your real problem is that you bought junk off ebay, knowing that items may not arrive in the condition advertised. :o
thanks for all your help, dave. :D

Hebrew Hammer, no plans on any other Pro Firebird at this time. The L types hold up far better than others.

Matt, the new plastic could be used both in the Pro blend or in candy in lighter weights. It depends how testing turns out with Pro. We have already tried in candy and it works dandy. :)

is this new stuff going to be available in opaque colors like the special blend stuff ??? and when should we expect it to be available??? thanks again dave :cool:

The new stuff is being run in Sidewinders presently and will run soon in Valks and Beasts. The SB (opaque colors) is a separate issue and we will be running some of them from time to time.

chase, the individual molders are responsible for determining what constitutes an X part. It is only supposed to be cosmetic flaws. Also, our dealers can return any unsatisfactory parts back to us, so that any bad parts that make it by inspection, (and it does happen), can, and should be returned to us by the dealers. That part should never have made it to you.




Thanks Dave. I was only wondering what kind of system was used for determining X-outs. Stuff happens.






Just in case I wasnt clear, the disc I bought was not a X-out. I just felt it should have been. It was advertised as perfect. I in no way meant to offend you or your staff. I was only curious as I throw alot of X-outs that are in perfect condition, in my eyes.

Hi Dave, off subject, I would like to know why the 174 Sidewinder I have is so understable and stays there. I have compared it to other discs that have similar size and weight like the Tee-bird which is stable. I don't understand why it works. Could you give me a brief explanation. Thanks in advance. Jeff

Hi Jeff. The flight of the Sidewinder is complicated, but it comes down to two things. First, it has a turning character such that it tends to bring its own nose down when thrown with a slight hyzer and a slight nose up. If thrown with too much nose up, it will not get into glide mode, and will stall left like any other disc. Secondly, it slows down slowly, or said another way: maintains velcocity very well when traveling at cruise speeds. So... when thrown properly such that it turns and gets its nose down, it maintains that position for a long period of time, at a fairly good cruising speed.

It seems the latest crash Really hosed the Dave D. thread. I do not like to fight through the empty pages. So I will start a new one until next big crash. Thanks in advance to Dave for his patience, persistance and insight for all future questions

Dave
Will TL become a regular production disc, especially SB TL?

ce

Republic of Texas....what a joke.

And what's wrong with that ?

What does that have to do with anything Andrew Treat! How bout them cowboys?

I'm just saying, having The Republic of Texas as your location is a joke. Everyone knows that Texas (The Republic of) was afraid of the better established Republic of Mexico and came running to the United States of America so that we would back them up and they wouldn�t lose a tiny strip of land. Instead we gained New Mexico, Nevada, Arizona, parts of Colorado and Kansas, and most importantly California.

Just saying.....you are trying to make something out of nothing /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

bansagger, we are discussing it, but probably not at this time.

Republic of Texas....what a joke.



don't spoil this thread [I'm a potty-mouth!]!! :p

Dave,
Sorry if this was covered in a previous thread, but, any chance of Champion Wraiths becoming a permenant item?


Jason

PaleSpyder, yes, there is a chance.

Dave:

For a relatively weak arm, what would be the difference between the Sidewinder and the Roadrunner? Would it make any sense to have both in the bag? (I have the former and have been quite happy with it.)

Thanks,

Karl Nehring

nehringk, no it wouldn't make sense to have both in your bag unless you use one exclusively for rolling and one exclusively for air shots. The Sidewinder is a better flyer, and the Roadrunner is a better roller.

Dave, when do the SB Teebirds get released to the public? I had the opportunity to throw one they are asesome. They are just like my 11x KC Pro Teebird with better grip.
Also, do you plan on making SB Firebirds? I think those would be awesome! Thanks.

Also, do you plan on making SB Firebirds? I think those would be awesome! Thanks.



Agreed! Especially 165-169 range SB Firebirds.

I definitely agree on the case for a 165-69 range SB Firebird! My 168 Champ one is finally starting to really show signs of wear and tear... hearing about some SB plastic ones coming out would definitely have me excited!

Dave, I love the company and what you guys do. Here's my ultimate bag, some of it you already make, some I'm hoping you do. How "do-able" is this?
SB Wraith
SB Starfire
SB Sidewinder
SB Firebird - DEFINATELY
SB Valkyrie
SB Orc - already here
SB Teebirds - CAN'T WAIT!!!
SB Roc - IN THE RANCHO MOLD!!!
SB Coyote - BEST DISC EVER!!!
SB Shark
SB Aviar - A MUST
If you made all these, I wouldn't need anything else. Thanks Dave.

Do you actually use all those different drivers?

why do "these" gateway people always come to the innova thread and talk sheit!?! :confused:

accidental roller, we plan on making all of your discs in SB. I will have to talk to the USDGC committee about the Rancho Roc. The full production SB TeeBird will be coming out in about three weeks. I think the Sidewinder and Beast will be next. I think most of the rest will be available by early next season.

Dave, do you anticipate making the SB's in 150 class in molds that will allow it? As always, thanks.

Hi Dave,
Will the whippet-x ever be re-released in champion or (fingers crossed) SB? I have a short stack of champion, but would love to see it in special blend. Thanks!

BTW - The SB ORC I have is so freakin' sweeeeet! Keep up the good work!

Hi Dave. I got a Coyote from Mark that is completely opaque and black in color. I mean Opaque. Any thoughts?

I dont even throw Innova and I would like to see some SB Big Bead Aviars :D

But you wouldn't throw them.....hmmm?

riverdog, yes, but that would be as limited as other candy discs.

rockportian, at some point we will do another run of Whippet X es in candy and or SB.

Chase, it sounds like a SB.

Chase, it sounds like a SB.




Even though its in Black plastic? I thought the Special Blends had been only in White and Blue or Red?

Either way, Thats one sweet piece of plastic. Thanks Dave.

Dave, when you run the Starfires in SB, which mold(s) will they be run in?

Chase, it sounds like a SB.




Even though its in Black plastic? I thought the Special Blends had been only in White and Blue or Red?

Either way, Thats one sweet piece of plastic. Thanks Dave.



I'm not sure of this, but Twisted Flyer has a black opaque Champ Viking on their website that looks a whole lot like SB plastic, and there is a black opaque CFR Wraith on Ebay with a really nice stamp on it (indicating to me that the disc hasn't been dyed), but it looks like there is some SB black floating around. Dave, can you elaborate on the existance of these black discs that look like SB?

Chase, as we have only run Champion in Coyotes, the black must be SB. Black is also an SB color. We have recently developed two new hot SB colors bright orange and pink. This brings up a recognition problem. Pro looks alot like SB. It's hard to tell the difference until the disc hits a tree or wall. When they go into production, they will be marked.

bigtom, we will be running both SXs and SLs in SB.

Furrthur, black Pro do look like black SB. Pro tends to be a little domier and softer, but they are difficult to tell apart. They need to be marked.

Great news about all the discs that are going "SB".
Also good news about the orange being offered. Orange is my favorite color as I think it's the easiest too find / see.

Can't wait for the SB Teebirds. I borrowed a DX Teebird (from my mom of all people :D ) and I really liked it, I was going to buy a DX but now I think I'll hold out for the SB.

I had a question regarding the Stingray. Did this disc replace the Moray as far as 'similar flight' ?
What a great disc..... I'm hoping I never lose the one I have.....

Pink and Orange SB? Awsome color choices, I can't wait to have a bag with Pink & White!

if you got a champ stingray hang on to it tight cuz they don't make 'em anymore. you can still purchase them all over the place, though, but not for too much longer. personally, i like the dx stingrays better and just need to buy a bunch and get 'em in rotation in my bag. stingrays are special... nothin' else like 'em. and they look so pretty flying.

OldTyme, The Stingray was an original disc from around 1987. The Moray was a more stable version several years later.

Dave,

I noticed the Eagle was left off the list of eventual Special Blend discs. An oversight by the poster, or is it off your list as well? Also do you have any idea what the mix in the last run of CE Eagles was in terms of CE plastic vs. the current Champion like plastic?

Thanks.

Hawk, I think that was the posters list. The Eagle is on our list with just about every other disc we have currently in Champion plastic.

That's good to hear Dave. What about the ratio of true CE plastic to Champion plastic in the last run of CE Eagles? Any idea on that?

Do you actually use all those different drivers?


Not at the same time.
I have thrown all of them at some point.
If I were to go to a course I'd never played before, it'd be nice to have all of them. Do I need all of them, course not. There is some overlap there, but they all are different and great in their own context.
If I had to only pick 2 or 3 drivers, I'd say:
Teebird, Firebird, Wraith
2 midranges:
Aviar, and Roc or Coyote
On a course with no "crush" holes. I could do really well with a Teebird, Firebird, Roc, and Aviar

Hawk, I'm not sure I understand your question. The last run of CE was three years ago. The plastic is the same as we use now except for the lighter weights. If you are talking about the original batch of plastic...the manufacturer is the same, the name of the plastic is the same, but it doesn't seem quite as tough as the original stuff.

I was wondering if there is any difference in the material used to make the Diamond Red Standard bag, and the regular standard bags. Are they all the same material or is it different? thanks.

Hi Dave. Are those Special Blend Coyotes released yet?

Ian, the materials are different. We no longer offer the standard bag in diamond material. It is still offered in the delux model. If you need any more specific info concerning bags you can contact sam at [email protected]

You got my question Dave, and unfortunately confirmed what Dr. Evil told me. I hate it when he's correct. Thanks.

bigtom, we will be running both SXs and SLs in SB.


Dave when will Starfire's and TL's in CE/SB be available at the reduced CFR pricing? I'm only finding X-Outs right now. Thanks.

Dave-I think you covered this with your "all the discs you listed will be available in SB" comment, but I just need to hear it for myself.

SB Big Bead Aviar? If so, when?
thanks

bigtom, the champion starfire and tl should be available now. The SB versions will be a while.

DSPro, the SB BB Aviar will probably have to wait until spring as a release.

Can someone tell me where I can find a Champion starfire in regular release??

Thanks!

You can't. Champion starfires have only ever been CFR's. If something is available in a regular release, it loses its apeal as a fundraiser the tournaments need so badly.

I think he meant, where can you find starfires at the reduced cfr price.

I've heard a rumor that the Starfire will be a "regular" disc in 2006.

Yes, thats what I meant. Where can I find Champ Starfires at the reduced CFR price? Anyone?

Regular CFR Starfires (newer x type), will be available by the end of this week through discgolf values at the new $15.99 msrp. These are So Cal fundraisers.

Thanks Dave. One more question, the Pro Starfire I have says "SF" on the bottom, is it a SX or SL?

Thanks in advance.

Thanks Dave. One more question, the Pro Starfire I have says "SF" on the bottom, is it a SX or SL?

Thanks in advance.



Dude.

Dude.



:confused: What? Im just trying to find out what the Pro Starfires (SL/SX) are so I know which Champ one to get......

If is says SF on the bottom of your Pro Starfire it's a Pro Starfire...I have a Starfire-L and it says SL on the bottom...I'm assuming a Starfire-X will say SX on the bottom...sorry about the sarcastic "dude" remark.

Pro Starfires are the same mold as the champion Starfire-L's. Starfire-X's don't have an equivalent in the pro plastic (yet).

MK

Thank you Matt Kelly. Thats what I wanted to know, what mold the Pro is.

Now I know which one to get.

Pro Starfires are the same mold as the champion Starfire-L's. Starfire-X's don't have an equivalent in the pro plastic (yet).

MK



Yeah, and they fly totally different...my SL is more understable than my SF.

I have a 168 Champ SL that flips more than my 168 pro Starfire. However, I also have two 175 Champ SLs that are very stable.

Regular CFR Starfires (newer x type), will be available by the end of this week through discgolf values at the new $15.99 msrp. These are So Cal fundraisers.



Thanks Dave, I'll purchase one to see how they fly.

Hey Dave, what are the chances of dusting off the Moray mold and breaking out some Champion morays this year?

luckyg71, there is a slim chance. It's a very dusty mold. If it happened at all, it would be SB.

Dave-thanks, great news about the SB BB Aviar. I don't know if you can do anything about this, but I hate the new Pro Aviars because of the really sharp flashing (feels like flashing) under the bead. Do you know what I'm talking about?

Don't let that worry you, lightly sand the flashing off.

Does that count as a post production modification?

DSPro, I do know what you mean. We need to repair the mold. You can lightly sand the bottom especially as the flash is not supposed to be there in the first place.

Does that count as a post production modification?



not if you yell out, woops as your doing it, then it's not intentional

:D

Does that count as a post production modification?

"802.01 C. Players may not make post-production modification of discs which alter their original flight characteristics. This rule does not forbid inevitable wear and tear from usage during play or the moderate sanding of discs to smooth molding imperfections ..."

And to my own question. SB Teebirds in production runs, TB or TL?

(Please please please, not TL. Discontinuing the Pro TB was a sad moment to many many players. I can somewhat understand the expressed desire to not have too many similar discs, i.e. TB and Starfire, that was mentioned somewhere as the reason, but I think the Pro Starfire really is much more similar to the TL in flight than to the "real" Teebird. But if there will indeed be a SB TB Teebird I'm sure there will be a lot of smiling faces, especially on this side of the atlantic ocean. :D )

swepeter, we will be making both kinds of SB Ts.

Dave, did ontario ever make any proto run gazelle's? I have a light blue disc with the black champion star stamp, closest thing I've felt to it is the old first run gazelle's. Any ideas on what it is would be helpful.

Great news, I will be a fan of the sb tl bird. No surprise that a Swede (http://www.sharkysshots.com/albums/userpics/10002/usdgc20050008.jpg) would crave something more overstable :D

10up, I'm not sure I understand your question. There was a proto Gazelle. I am not sure if it was run in Ontario or Rancho. It was retooled into the present type. The proto was a little lower profile, a little understable, and very long flying. I am not sure how many protos were actually produced.

Sorry, I just reread the post and realized I didn't word it very well.

I don't know what this disc is, it doesn't have any writing on it at all other than the black star stamp "Champion Discs, INC" and on the backside it has the patent # and the Ontario Address. I know Proto Gazelle's would have to have been very old, and this disc is in spanking new condition. It has a fairly thick lip heighthwise, concave, but it doesn't go that deep towards the center. It is also very domey, maybe the most I've seen. I really can't say how it flies at this point because without knowing what it is I'm a bit apprehensive to throw it. I've showed it to several people around here and the closest thing we've found to it is an old San Marino Gazelle, but it doesn't seem exactly the same.

Anyway, I know this isn't really your specialty and it is hard without holding the disc in your hands but if you have an idea let me know.

Thanks

1. Hows about a picture of it from a profile?

2. Maybe a Viper?

Just my two cents.

Pix of rim as well. Could be a Millenium disc, I've seen these that look close to a Viper. There were many Champion Star stamped disc's. The original Gazelle was released at I believe the '94 or '95 Worlds with a combo stamp using part of the Star stamp. All of the proto Gazelle's I've seen used the Innova Bar stamp.

better than lightly sanding it, Bring your disc to work where there is a tight knit, short pile rug available. palm the top of the disc with both hands and rub the bottom of the disc in a circular motion for 5-10 seconds. This will heat up the flash so that it retracts and reforms with the bead. I do it to my Omega APs and they are better than beat in in 15 seconds.

Dave,

I've read that you plan on making almost all drivers in SB plastic. I would assume some of the other (non-Roc) mid's and putters will inevitably be made in the plastic too.

Where will SB fit into the pricing structure? Currently, what I've seen is that retail is:
DX - $9
Pro - $12
Champ - $15

Will SB be between Pro and Champ, or slightly more than Champ?

Thanks!

Looking forward to a great 2006 season full of SB plastic in the bag!

Dave,

I've read that you plan on making almost all drivers in SB plastic. I would assume some of the other (non-Roc) mid's and putters will inevitably be made in the plastic too.

Where will SB fit into the pricing structure? Currently, what I've seen is that retail is:
DX - $9
Pro - $12
Champ - $15

Will SB be between Pro and Champ, or slightly more than Champ?

Thanks!

Looking forward to a great 2006 season full of SB plastic in the bag!


Correct me if I'm wrong Dave, but I'm pretty sure you said that all SB's will be fundraisers at MSRP $15.99 and the current Champ. Fundraisers (exculding Glow and Inncolor) will be "retired" to regular stock champion at MSRP $14

jeterdawg, we plan on releasing most Stars (SBs) into regular production. The MSRP currently is: DX $8.99, Pro $12.99, and Champion $15.99. The Stars will also be $15.99.
STAR=Special, Tacky, Abraision Resistant plastic. Any limited edition or special edition Stars will go into CFR also at MSRP of $15.99.

which sb's will remain as exclusively cfr's? hopefully all of them , i feel this will enhance tournament funding greatly!!! :D

Will there be SB Rhynos?

Ok. I think I'm lost. Did the SB blend everyone keeps talking about just now become STAR.

If so, then can someone compare STAR to the old Special Edition (SE). I have an old beat up SE Rhyno and would REALLLLLLY like to have something close. I was going to purchase a Pro Line Rhyno, but would gladly pay up to get a better Rhyno.

Bully

I'm really looking forward to trying the new SB plastic. So, if I understand it correctly, Innova will now be offering 4 lines of regular production plastic. DX, Pro, Champion, and Star (SB). Is that correct?

step, that is correct

tinfoil, probably not, but maybe.

esalazar, we are discussing internally at Innova what the CFR program will have. No decisions made yet. Any limited edition made will go in CFR at the lower MSRP.

Dave, I want to thank you for listening to your customers. The new lower priced CFRs give us poorer DGers the same discs the pro's use at a reasonable price while still raising money for tourneys. You guys have done an outstanding job. I do believe, from what I've seen thus far, that more money will be raised this way. All the new CFRs are selling like hotcakes.
Now, WHERE ARE THE SB FIREBIRDS ALREADY???????
I've got my SB Orc and the SB Teebird is on the way. I NEED THAT SB FIREBIRD! PLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAASSSSSSEEE EEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Thanks again Dave and Innova!

I'm going to have to second the request for SB Firebirds. I don't know if they will make it before the end of the year, but will we see them perhaps before the beginning of next season?

I'm not sure when Firebirds are scheduled to go in, but I'm pretty sure it will be this winter. When the mold goes in, we will do Star Firebirds and FLs.

Thank you, Dave. Can't wait to get my hands on the *Firebirds. Will they be FX or FL? I can't really tell from your previous statement.

translation= both!! f=fx and fl!!

How about Aviars?

lopezjmr, Star Aviar will happen.

Dave, I am a huge fan of the Special Blend plastic and it doesnt really matter to me what you call it, but, for what its worth, the name "star" pretty much sucks. Just an observation. Maybe you should just leave it Special Blend.

The STAR designation doesn't suck! But all STAR discs should have the old Champion star stamp. It's the best stamp of all time and this plastic may be as well.

I like the star stamp alot, just not the name "star". It just doesnt roll off the toungue very well. "Star Orc"? But like I said before, I love the plastic, along with many of the molds it will be run in (Classic Roc please...I'll pay fundraiser prices). You could call them "garbage", and thats still what my bag will primarily consist of. I think that there are problably alot of fans of the plastic who have already grown to love the name Special Blend. I guess I forgot this is the "ask Dave" thread. So I guess my question...again...and sorry if this is annoying you...will you please run some "Star" Classic Rocs (max weight of course)?

I agree with CA.
I don't care for the "Star" name attached......I always thought "Special Blend" made them sound much more, well, special.
One thing..... if they are called Star, then I guess my Special Blend Orc will be worth so much more.....It will be ULTRA-RARE as it's labeled "special blend" on the disc.

I'm glad someone asked about a re-issue of the Moray. I thought I was the only one in the world who loved this disc. I know it's a long-shot to actually see it happen, but I can dream.

I guess I'll stay on topic &amp; ask a question, any kind of a "release date" on the Special Blend....oops.....I meant Star TeeBirds ??

Also, do you plan on releasing a DevilHawk type disc? It seems to be one hot disc. :D

I most DEF. love the Special Blend (Star) plastic. I have last years SB Roc and SB Teebirds on the way.

Golf claps for Innova for FINALLY giving us what we want.

And I agree with the above posts. I would like for SB plastic to be called just that. We've been calling this plastic SB/Special Blend for a year or more.

I guess what I'm asking is why change the name of the plastic after we all know it as Special Blend?

Again, Congrats to Dave and Innova for listening to us.

since we seem to be taking a pole....i really dont like star plastic. I realize its a marketing scheme but honestly star sounds cheezy. Special blend is a good name both in describing the plastic and marketing wise. Keep the name!!

since we seem to be taking a pole....i really dont like star plastic. I realize its a marketing scheme but honestly star sounds cheezy. Special blend is a good name both in describing the plastic and marketing wise. Keep the name!!



just to clarify I like the plastic....just not the name "star"

Choke Artist, yes we will run Star Classic Rocs, but it won't be that soon. We did consider leaving the name Special Blend, but decided we needed a shorter name, and to not confuse our store customers. The Pro plastic is currently described as "a Special Blend of"....Pro and Special Blend are hard enough to tell apart without the confusing language.

The Star TeeBird is scheduled to run next week. That usually means it will be available about two weeks or so after that. It takes about a week or so to make enough to send to the east coast office. Then we have to make enough for our office. Then we have to hotstamp them.

Dave , any idea when the star orcs will be released as a regular production disc?

I don't want to sound like a smartas.s but he did mention earlier in this thread that they (teebirds) would be the first ones available &amp; due out in a few weeks. I was just looking for a more precise date.
I have sort of the same dilema, I just bid on a DX Teebird on ebay yesterday....I said I would wait for the SB's, but it's a special stamp Teebird &amp; it was just too pretty to pass up. :D

....It takes about a week or so to make enough to send to the east coast office. Then we have to make enough for our office. Then we have to hotstamp them.


Will the East Coast discs have a different stamp; will it be on the 'bottom'? :)

esalazar, the orcs won't be released until the Am Worlds are done with them.

slo, I think the stamp will be the same and on the top. We are working on the art now.

I think that "star" fits well with the current line of plastic. Think about it, not only is each a type of plastic, it can also be used as a designation of the skill of a disc golfer. Star, Pro, Champion.

DOnt you mean Pro, Star, and CHAMP!???

Choke Artist, yes we will run Star Classic Rocs, but it won't be that soon. We did consider leaving the name Special Blend, but decided we needed a shorter name, and to not confuse our store customers. The Pro plastic is currently described as "a Special Blend of"....Pro and Special Blend are hard enough to tell apart without the confusing language.



Dave, I am almost in Heaven. Can you please make the (Star) Classic Rocs in the '02 CE mold and NOT the over stable '04? And if you know where any of the '02 CE Classic Rocs are hiding, please let me know! -Thanks a lot for ALL that you do!

Cool !!!!! Star Stamped Aviar X's !!!!!!! /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Sweet!!!!!! SB Classic Rocs. I can't wait, even though I will. I as opposed to a previous poster would like it to be the newer mold, but both would be great. Thanks for the info.

Dave, will STAR plastic be amenable to molding in 150-class?

ray, the star plastic will make 150 class the same as Pro or candy

kinda confusing

star starfire

star firebird

:D

How about Champion Grip

Then we could have CG to Replace our CE

Champion prime, CP

anyways, where are those Star (special Blend ) Gremlins :D

I think we should call them Extra Special or just ES for short ;)

Dave is it possible to use the old CE FX mold for the new STAR firebird?

Dave is it possible to use the old CE FX mold for the new STAR firebird?



the Firebird (F) is the fx mold!! :p

Big brothers know everything. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

the Firebird (F) is the fx mold!! :p

[/QUOTE]

Nope!!! The F just means firebird not L or X. I am referring to The CE FX and the new champion Firebirds.


I don't know for sure if the molds are different but they do fly different...
Dave?

The Champ Firebirds that are being run right now are the FX mold :D I dont even throw Innova and I know that :eek:

Since you guys are experts, why do they fly different? You have to throw them to know & i don't mean thumber's E :eek:

The plastic is different which is why they fly differently. Im sure the Star Orcs fly diff from the Champ Orcs and they are made in the same mold.

Unless you have an older run Champ Firebird or a Proline/Candy Firebird. Im not sure if those are in the FX mold but I know the most recent funs and the one poppy off now are in the FX mold :D

Ok quick summary on the F molds

Original Firebirds were FLs. They were marked as F's on the back. Then innova started using the FX mold for the CE firebirds and marked it as FX. Eventually they just dropped the X and called it F. So F and FX are the same mold for current firebirds. You will have to feel the lip in order to determine if your older CE firebird is FL or F.

The Pro Firebirds are in the FL mold. Champ are in F/FX mold. ProLine Firebirds were also FX.

The pro FL's are NOT the same FL mold used for CE FL's. thus 3 different firebird molds FL, FX (or F), and pro FL.

Is this correct, dave?

t_mojo, no. There is only one Firebird and one FL. It_doesn't_matter had a good summary, except he should have said the original CE type Firebird was the L mold. The original DX was the F(X) type.