Dave-
what is the story of the discmania PD mold? is it a combo of some other molds? what discs share the same rim width?
thanks

DGDave is essentially correct.

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The Echo Star TeeBirds were available for West Coast custom orders while the discs were in queue for hot stamping. The entire West Coast inventory has been stock stamped and have been available to all customers for the past week. The discs for East Coast are still waiting to be shipped and likely won't be available from them until mid-January.

Thats wrong. You should be allowing everyone to order from the West then, or they shouldnt be released. Total BS.

I threw about 360 ft with an Aviar (end zone to end zone). Craig Leyva could/can throw 400ft or more. So can Avery. I think Dave Griffin was a 400ft Aviar thrower too.

Sam did roll an Aviar that far, but it was on a dry lake bed and would have gone farther if he had started farther back. The rollers will often roll to the end of the lake bed. I am sure he could have rolled a half mile or more.
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i thought it was randy lahm who threw the monster aviar roller.

Please do a run of Pro Orcs. Thanks.

Thats wrong. You should be allowing everyone to order from the West then, or they shouldnt be released. Total BS.

So what your saying Innova should press a new disc and wait till it has shipped to both branches before any sales? They could always ship to the East first then the West.

8)

Please do a run of Pro Orcs. Thanks.

maybe we could all pitch in $50 for 5, and then have at least 500 made. That would only take 100 of us. There are surely more of us who miss the Pro Orc. I threw distance once and got 149 meters (489 ft) with a Pro Orc (Pro Worlds 07). It went about 540, but to my dismay only air distance counted. :cool:

Blue Pro Orcs please!

Dave what would be the minimum order to get a run of Pro Orcs?

maybe we could all pitch in $50 for 5, and then have at least 500 made. That would only take 100 of us. There are surely more of us who miss the Pro Orc. I threw distance once and got 149 meters (489 ft) with a Pro Orc (Pro Worlds 07). It went about 540, but to my dismay only air distance counted. :cool:

Blue Pro Orcs please!

Dave what would be the minimum order to get a run of Pro Orcs?

Too many, I think. I did offer the Pro (Millennium) Orc to John H, but he wasn't interested. That would be a way to get it back into production.

We would like to offer every disc we have ever made, but it is not feasible in terms of molding time and storage space.

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I did offer the Pro (Millennium) Orc to John H, but he wasn't interested. That would be a way to get it back into production.


A Millenium Pro Orc... If that happened would not the Champion Orc and Star Orc overlap with the Q and Sirius Millenium versions? Or would John Houck/Millenium only be given the Pro (standard Millenium plastic) version?

Isn't the Orc inbetween an Orion LS and an Orion LF?

I'd suggest the Pro Orc as a fundraiser but realize it can't compete with the Roc...

The Star Valk and Star Beast seem close to a Pro Orc... (?)

- - - -

Dave you are getting very sleepy... repeat after me: I must make Pro Orcs... I must make Blue Pro Orcs... I must make-it-so... ;)

- - - -

i will say the Destroyer has pretty much been my 'help-me-Rhonda' in terms of my missing shiny new Pro Orcs.

PS: Thank you for all you have done and do for disc golf.

Too many, I think. I did offer the Pro (Millennium) Orc to John H, but he wasn't interested. That would be a way to get it back into production.

We would like to offer every disc we have ever made, but it is not feasible in terms of molding time and storage space.

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Make it a CFR. I think it would definitely do better than Champion Vipers...

If Houck doesn't want it, how do I get the rights to it? Like Discmania, etc.

If Houck doesn't want it, how do I get the rights to it? Like Discmania, etc.

you are not the first person to have asked Dave that question :cool:

Dave,

Three questions:

When can we expect a Champion Katana for CFR production?

Will there be CFR Glow Teebirds and Firebirds (regular mold, not -L molds) available soon at East Coast?

Is it possible for A-Tiers to get special models for CFR that B-Tiers cannot get and so on?



Looking forward to selling some discs for the Atlanta Open A-Tier and the EatSleepDisc.com Autumn Open A-Tier. Innova by far has been the best sponsor, supporting my events through CFR pricing for disc sponsor sales.

Dave,

Three questions:

When can we expect a Champion Katana for CFR production?

Will there be CFR Glow Teebirds and Firebirds (regular mold, not -L molds) available soon at East Coast?

Is it possible for A-Tiers to get special models for CFR that B-Tiers cannot get and so on?



Looking forward to selling some discs for the Atlanta Open A-Tier and the EatSleepDisc.com Autumn Open A-Tier. Innova by far has been the best sponsor, supporting my events through CFR pricing for disc sponsor sales.

We should start making Champ Katanas in January for CFR.

We have no stock of either CFR Glow TeeBirds or Firebirds on either coast. Neither is currently scheduled for production.

Special models are usually only available for majors and NTs. And not even necessarily for those. We decide on a case by case basis. Contact East Coast for your event.

So what your saying Innova should press a new disc and wait till it has shipped to both branches before any sales? They could always ship to the East first then the West.

8)


I dont know, I just know Im sick of seeing specialty and even new release discs on Ebay and on other websites that I have no access to and have to lose business over it. I appreciate thier products, just not the way they choose to distribute them, I suppose is the nicest way I can put it.

Will there be a run of Champion Makos for CFR also? At least by February when the East Coast gets the Katanas?

Hey Dave,

Latitude 64 has recently got their new Halo driver down to 164 grams in their opto plastic. Assuming that opto is pretty much champion plastic, what do you think is allowing them to get their driver thats very similar to the boss spec wise down in weight so much?

Whats holding innova up? I'm pretty sure with that speed and weight a champ boss could crush at 164 grams.

Dave,

Now that you have the Echo Teebird molded, what are the plans for an Echo Firebird?

Will there be a run of Champion Makos for CFR also? At least by February when the East Coast gets the Katanas?

Champion Makos will be main stream when we make them.

Dave,

Now that you have the Echo Teebird molded, what are the plans for an Echo Firebird?

We haven't make any plans regarding the Echo Firebird as yet.

Is there any chance that a test run has been already made of the echo firebirds because I know a guy who has a firebird that is the green plastic and he got it off of one of the innova team members and they told him it was an echo firebird.

Thanks Dave.

One more question:

On the East Coast order form it has Star Bosses at 150 Class as out of stock, when do you anticipate to make/ship more our way?

Thanks,
ChrisP.

Is there any chance that a test run has been already made of the echo firebirds because I know a guy who has a firebird that is the green plastic and he got it off of one of the innova team members and they told him it was an echo firebird.

We probably made some test shots, but I rember them being domey. We didn't want domey Firebirds so we stopped.
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Thanks Dave.

One more question:

On the East Coast order form it has Star Bosses at 150 Class as out of stock, when do you anticipate to make/ship more our way?

Thanks,
ChrisP.

That is a glitch in their order form. There is no such thing as 150 Star Bosses. They occasionally go down to 166gms.

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We probably made some test shots, but I rember them being domey. We didn't want domey Firebirds so we stopped.
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When your making those flat Firebirds, could you throw some FLs in there?

Thank you Dave and all your elves at Innova for the Christmas disc. KL

Dave, a guy on another board was asking for someone to identify the 2007 GSC disc.

Looks fairly stable and is in a dark champion plastic and I was thinking either a Teerex or Max but I don't really remember if the max came out in 06' or 07'.

Dave, a guy on another board was asking for someone to identify the 2007 GSC disc.

Looks fairly stable and is in a dark champion plastic and I was thinking either a Teerex or Max but I don't really remember if the max came out in 06' or 07'.

Mine is a T-rexX

Any chance of these in 2010?

Any chance of these in 2010?

Yes, they are a regular item.

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Could you please screw up your next 19 runs of any discs in star plastic so you can run echo runs of everything? Thanks!
Is it possible to run echo champion? Is the echo a mix of both? Could you do that? I like the echo plastic, obviously.

Could you please screw up your next 19 runs of any discs in star plastic so you can run echo runs of everything? Thanks!
Is it possible to run echo champion? Is the echo a mix of both? Could you do that? I like the echo plastic, obviously.

Echo is a mix of both.
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Dave, since we didn't get champion RAMS how about ECO STAR RAMS instead.

Is it possible or would they be too heavy?

Echo is a mix of both.
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That's what I figured. Have. You tried the plastics by themselves?
The echo stickers on the teebirds are kind of a pain to remove. The discs are sweet, the stickers not so much. Why was it decided that the teebirds would get stickers and the excals and destroyers would not? Nothing to do with extra stickers from the rocs?

Dave, since we didn't get champion RAMS how about ECO STAR RAMS instead.

Is it possible or would they be too heavy?

I believe it is possible.

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That's what I figured. Have. You tried the plastics by themselves?
The echo stickers on the teebirds are kind of a pain to remove. The discs are sweet, the stickers not so much. Why was it decided that the teebirds would get stickers and the excals and destroyers would not? Nothing to do with extra stickers from the rocs?

Sorting by plastic type when recycling would be too difficult. It is done by color, and all colors are mixed. It's actually a pretty tedious job. There are a ton of scrap discs that have to be sorted.

The stickers are to identify Echo from Star. This is necessary for our own packers and hot stampers, not to mention customers. We probably didn't have stickers when we made the Excals and Destroyers.
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Hey Dave,

Latitude 64 has recently got their new Halo driver down to 164 grams in their opto plastic. Assuming that opto is pretty much champion plastic, what do you think is allowing them to get their driver thats very similar to the boss spec wise down in weight so much?

Whats holding innova up? I'm pretty sure with that speed and weight a champ boss could crush at 164 grams.

I understand if you passed over my question, but i'm still curious.

Thanks,

Hi, Dave I was wondering about the new additive that you all added to champion discs to make them more stable, i bought a couple new champ orcs and they were very stable, so i was thinking may be I need to go to a beast in stead to have something that will turn a little but was wondering if you made the beast with the new champ plastic and how stable it might be?

Hello Dave,

Can you or others help me out...

I have kinda mustard color with blue big star stamp it is very old .. It is large diameter and very stiff made in san marino. I know it is not roc. I compared it to roc .. roc is too thick. so I guess either cobra or hammer? thanks

Hello Dave,

Can you or others help me out...

I have kinda mustard color with blue big star stamp it is very old .. It is large diameter and very stiff made in san marino. I know it is not roc. I compared it to roc .. roc is too thick. so I guess either cobra or hammer? thanks

Python maybe?

I understand if you passed over my question, but i'm still curious.

Thanks,

Sorry, no clue.

Hi, Dave I was wondering about the new additive that you all added to champion discs to make them more stable, i bought a couple new champ orcs and they were very stable, so i was thinking may be I need to go to a beast in stead to have something that will turn a little but was wondering if you made the beast with the new champ plastic and how stable it might be?

We haven't tried it, but it might be a good ideal for a certain type of Champion Beast. Maybe for Barry.

Hello Dave,

Can you or others help me out...

I have kinda mustard color with blue big star stamp it is very old .. It is large diameter and very stiff made in san marino. I know it is not roc. I compared it to roc .. roc is too thick. so I guess either cobra or hammer? thanks

natureboy68, what is DDGA, just curios?

Hello Dave,

Can you or others help me out...

I have kinda mustard color with blue big star stamp it is very old .. It is large diameter and very stiff made in san marino. I know it is not roc. I compared it to roc .. roc is too thick. so I guess either cobra or hammer? thanks

Could be a Hammer.

Yes it is hammer > I asked my friend that he has a large diameter hammer and I compared it and it is exactly same. thanks for helping..


DDGA stands for Deaf Disc golf Association. Check out www.ddga.org You prolly read about it in current issue magazine.

Could be a Hammer.

is the hammer the same as the hammerhead? i found one of those but i'm afraid to throw it, due to the fact that no one has ever heard of it. even disc golfers i know that collect discs just to have them.

is the hammer the same as the hammerhead? i found one of those but i'm afraid to throw it, due to the fact that no one has ever heard of it. even disc golfers i know that collect discs just to have them.

The Hammerhead came out last. It turned more than the others and was faster. It was more difficult to mold and hot stamp than the Hammers, which were also difficult to mold. It was discontinued after one or two runs.

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The Hammerhead came out last. It turned more than the others and was faster. It was more difficult to mold and hot stamp than the Hammers, which were also difficult to mold. It was discontinued after one or two runs.

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The Hammer head looks like a completely different mold? Or is the top the same?

The Hammer head looks like a completely different mold? Or is the top the same?

Top is the same. 180 gm size.
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Hi Dave,

I just acquired a Sirius Sentinel MF and am wondering how you would rate its speed and high speed resistance to turn and low speed fade? I could go throw it, but it is about 5 degrees Fahrenheit here today. What's the temp there? :)

Assuming you have thrown one in the past decade, or just based on your expertise, is the MF Sentinel more overstable than Champ Rocs? Would you expect Sirius (star) to be less overstable than Q (champ) with this mold?

thanks as always for taking my call. thanks too for the Destroyer. Anything new in the works have that kind of appeal for you or is golf disc evolution finally at a plateau?

IMO, Yes, more overstable and more low speed fade. Like a beefy Shark or maybe a Battle Glo Roc.

IMO, Yes, more overstable and more low speed fade. Like a beefy Shark or maybe a Battle Glo Roc.

thanks for the feedback. i just read Blake's review at www.discgolfreview.com (http://www.discgolfreview.com) and when he wrote it in 2001, he described the Sentinel MF as the fastest midrange he'd thrown and as possibly the most overstable midrange made.

I'm thinking my preference for Star (Sirius) won't compromise my intention to use this as my overstable mid. the only mid i carry (till now) is the QMS and SMS...

Hi Dave,

I just acquired a Sirius Sentinel MF and am wondering how you would rate its speed and high speed resistance to turn and low speed fade? I could go throw it, but it is about 5 degrees Fahrenheit here today. What's the temp there? :)

Assuming you have thrown one in the past decade, or just based on your expertise, is the MF Sentinel more overstable than Champ Rocs? Would you expect Sirius (star) to be less overstable than Q (champ) with this mold?

thanks as always for taking my call. thanks too for the Destroyer. Anything new in the works have that kind of appeal for you or is golf disc evolution finally at a plateau?

Hey Rob,

The Sentinel is a faster, more overstable mid. I don't know whether the Sirius or Q would be any different. I have only thrown the S, I believe. The Sentinel used to be, or maybe still is a favorite of Steve Brinster.

As far as what's in the works that have appeal to me: the Katana has some nice appeal and so does a new mold Star Roc we are producing now.

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would you expect Pro Orc lovers to like the Katana?

Hey Rob,

The Sentinel is a faster, more overstable mid. I don't know whether the Sirius or Q would be any different. I have only thrown the S, I believe. The Sentinel used to be, or maybe still is a favorite of Steve Brinster.

As far as what's in the works that have appeal to me: the Katana has some nice appeal and so does a new mold Star Roc we are producing now.

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New mold star Roc? Is this differnt from the San Marnio? Whats it gonna be like?

Dave, will this new mold Roc only be used for Star? I'm wondering if you'll continue to run the dx Roc using the current Rancho mold.

would you expect Pro Orc lovers to like the Katana?

Yes. Not sure which type, but I would guess Star or Champion. The Pro is a little less stable with more glide.

Dave, will this new mold Roc only be used for Star? I'm wondering if you'll continue to run the dx Roc using the current Rancho mold.

The new mold Roc will be used for heavy Star Rocs from 174-180. It might be used for heavy Champion, but that has to be determined. It will also be used for R-Pro and DX most likely. Lighter weight Star and Champion will still use the older molds.

The new Roc flies in between an Ontario and San Marino, I think. It has real good high speed stability, but a little less low speed over-stability than a San Marino. Same speed and glide.

SO will the current Rancho mold be discontinued?

SO will the current Rancho mold be discontinued?

Say it isn't so!

Dave, one of the greatest things about the Rancho Roc is that predictable LS fade. If I wanted to throw something without that fade, I'd throw a Coyote or Buzz or something. Please please please don't quit running the Rancho in dx.

thanks for the feedback. i just read Blake's review at www.discgolfreview.com (http://www.discgolfreview.com) and when he wrote it in 2001, he described the Sentinel MF as the fastest midrange he'd thrown and as possibly the most overstable midrange made.

I'm thinking my preference for Star (Sirius) won't compromise my intention to use this as my overstable mid. the only mid i carry (till now) is the QMS and SMS...

I used QMS' for a long time. When I couldnt find them in CE anymore I switched. I still think they are the most underappreciated mids out there.

There are alot of Q ( CE from roughly the second/third run ) Sents out there, and if you like the Sirious, Id try to find one. I heard the newers have been tweaked a bit and arent quite as overstable as they used to be, much like the EXP. Shouldnt cost much, a sponsored player told me they still has some left in the wharehouse until earlier this year.

Dave, one of the greatest things about the Rancho Roc is that predictable LS fade. If I wanted to throw something without that fade, I'd throw a Coyote or Buzz or something. Please please please don't quit running the Rancho in dx.

We are definitely not discontinuing the Rancho Roc or any other current Rocs. We will make DX Roc in the new mold also and see which one sells. This new Roc is definitely more over stable than the Coyote or even the Ontario Roc.

We are definitely not discontinuing the Rancho Roc or any other current Rocs. We will make DX Roc in the new mold also and see which one sells. This new Roc is definitely more over stable than the Coyote or even the Ontario Roc.

That's great to hear.

I know this was a while ago (2005 to be exact), but how much of the flight will be like the 2005 Special Blend "Ontario like" mold? I remember that disc being very straight with minimal fade.

how will you differentiate the molds in the dx runs? I suggest making it easy for people to tell the difference btw a dx rancho and a dx "new" roc.
good luck with this one.

That's great to hear.

I know this was a while ago (2005 to be exact), but how much of the flight will be like the 2005 Special Blend "Ontario like" mold? I remember that disc being very straight with minimal fade.

This one is more over stable. It definitely has some fade, just not quite as much as a regular Rancho.

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how will you differentiate the molds in the dx runs? I suggest making it easy for people to tell the difference btw a dx rancho and a dx "new" roc.
good luck with this one.

There will be four ways to tell the difference. The engraving is on a larger diameter, though it does say Rancho Cucamonga. The mark under the disc will be R+, instead of just R, the nose will be a little rounder, and it will feel a little different in your hand. If you don't know Rocs, you might not be able to tell the difference, but if you do, it will be no problem.

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Sounds like a broke in Rancho or should I say KC Pro?

When will this new SanTario Roc be available? Will it have a separate name? ahem, cough cough!

Sounds like a broke in Rancho or should I say KC Pro?


That might be fair to say for the Stars. DX might run more over stable. We will have to see.

When will this new SanTario Roc be available? Will it have a separate name? ahem, cough cough!

We haven't thought through all the details yet, but, as it stands, we are running Star Rocs. We are marking a R+ on the bottom to easily identify the mold, but probably will just have a Star Roc stamp on top.

It will take at least two weeks to make enough to ship to the East Coast. Shipping, hot stamping, etc will take a week or so more. Proabably no sooner than March.

Will you make the R+ in champion Plastic?

Champion Roc's should be for USDGC only.

Hi Dave.

I just signed up for Japan and need some light discs. I ordered a few Katanas and Monarchs, but still need a more overstable driver as close to 159.9 as possible. What do you suggest? And where might I be able to find a few of whatever that may be?

Thanks,

Scott

Hi Dave - I threw one of our Golden Sombrero Star Makos yesterday and found it to be a very straight flyer with very minimal fade, just as promised. I passed it around to several other players and the reviews were all the same. Right now the Mako weights only go as low as 167g - any chance that you'll run the Mako in Star-Lite? Thanx!!

Hi Dave.

I just signed up for Japan and need some light discs. I ordered a few Katanas and Monarchs, but still need a more overstable driver as close to 159.9 as possible. What do you suggest? And where might I be able to find a few of whatever that may be?

Thanks,

Scott

Sam at herodisc.com might be able to help you. Firebirds, TeeBirds, Eagles, Banshees, and possibly Starfires go down to 159gms in Champion and Star plastics. Most models go down to 159 in DX.

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Will you make the R+ in champion Plastic?

The USDGC has the inside track on that.
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Hi Dave - I threw one of our Golden Sombrero Star Makos yesterday and found it to be a very straight flyer with very minimal fade, just as promised. I passed it around to several other players and the reviews were all the same. Right now the Mako weights only go as low as 167g - any chance that you'll run the Mako in Star-Lite? Thanx!!

I don't believe we will be running the Mako in Star-Lite. We can run the Mako in lighter weights in Champion and Star, we just have not chosen to at this point.

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I don't believe we will be running the Mako in Star-Lite. We can run the Mako in lighter weights in Champion and Star, we just have not chosen to at this point.

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Please choose to! I would love to have that ultra-straight flight in a lighter weight so I could have more glide. Thanks!

Is the Rancho mold roc staying in regular production in DX?

Is the Rancho mold roc staying in regular production in DX?

Yes

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thought this was funny enough to share:

overheard on a course in 2025 wrote:
...and then the Great Roc Panic of '10 hit, and disc golfers all over the country were jumpin' out of buildings and whatnot. Not very high ones. Lotta sprains that year. I remember people standing on corners, asking if you could spare half a point of low speed stability. Those were hard times, hard times.

We are definitely not discontinuing the Rancho Roc or any other current Rocs. We will make DX Roc in the new mold also and see which one sells. This new Roc is definitely more over stable than the Coyote or even the Ontario Roc.

:-D

Dave, I dont feel like going through the thread, but one of the vendors here just got in some Echo TeeBirds and am wondering how stable they are compared to the 12x Champ. TeeBirds.

Dave, I dont feel like going through the thread, but one of the vendors here just got in some Echo TeeBirds and am wondering how stable they are compared to the 12x Champ. TeeBirds.

I didn't throw them, but usually Echo Star is as stable and sometimes more stable than Star.

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from another forum:
I think they should add a "+" to the hotstamp if they are selling them in DX. Is that too much to ask? Just stamp them "Roc+" and it's easy for everybody to identify.

makes sense to me.

Hey Dvae I had asked you about this particular discs a long time ago, does this description sound correct?
http://cgi.ebay.com/Rare-Collector-Alert-ROC-top-Stingray-bottom-Innova_W0QQitemZ290341876990QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_ DefaultDomain_0?hash=item4399b974fe#ht_1101wt_939

Hey Dvae I had asked you about this particular discs a long time ago, does this description sound correct?
http://cgi.ebay.com/Rare-Collector-Alert-ROC-top-Stingray-bottom-Innova_W0QQitemZ290341876990QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_ DefaultDomain_0?hash=item4399b974fe#ht_1101wt_939

There are two conflicting descriptions. Stingray top and Innova bottom means nothing. Roc top with Stingray wing could be one of two different discs. Aurora or DGA Pro for one, and potentially a rarer disc that I don't recall the name of that was similar to a second generation Hammer without a bead.
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Think that was suppose to read Roc Top sintray bottom but that discrip is messed up

I know a while back we talked about how you were planning on making the pro aviar in a plastic similar to what the pro pig is made in.
I throw the KC pro aviar and love everything about this disc esp. the BIG bead and I must have this bead on a disc to be able to putt with it.
My biggest problem is that during cold days these discs become very slick and very hard to putt with, and I get very tired of licking my fingers to get grip.
Can you please update me with some more info on when you plan on making this aviar in the pro pig plastic.
Thanks a bunch.

Roc top with Stingray wing could be one of two different discs. Aurora or DGA Pro for one, and potentially a rarer disc that I don't recall the name of that was similar to a second generation Hammer without a bead.
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Prior to the first release of the Aurora MS, would a disc with a Roc top and Stingray wing be the original/pre-release Aurora MS?

I know a while back we talked about how you were planning on making the pro aviar in a plastic similar to what the pro pig is made in.
I throw the KC pro aviar and love everything about this disc esp. the BIG bead and I must have this bead on a disc to be able to putt with it.
My biggest problem is that during cold days these discs become very slick and very hard to putt with, and I get very tired of licking my fingers to get grip.
Can you please update me with some more info on when you plan on making this aviar in the pro pig plastic.
Thanks a bunch.

for grip or cold weather -- why not use a JK Pro Aviar-x? it is the same mold as the KC Pro Aviar, but entails a softer, grippier plastic

I know a while back we talked about how you were planning on making the pro aviar in a plastic similar to what the pro pig is made in.
I throw the KC pro aviar and love everything about this disc esp. the BIG bead and I must have this bead on a disc to be able to putt with it.
My biggest problem is that during cold days these discs become very slick and very hard to putt with, and I get very tired of licking my fingers to get grip.
Can you please update me with some more info on when you plan on making this aviar in the pro pig plastic.
Thanks a bunch.

I haven't gotten to it yet. The next time we have the big bead mold in, I will definitely try it, and run it if it works. I have already had a successful test with the stiffer R-Pro in Rocs. The only questions is...is it moldable in a big bead. That means...can it be de-molded, (taken out of the mold easily), and will it form up properly.
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Prior to the first release of the Aurora MS, would a disc with a Roc top and Stingray wing be the original/pre-release Aurora MS?

That mold was first used for DGAs Pro model. It was a really good disc that didn't sell. DGA numbered them 1,2,3. Two and three were "factored". This was a similar to the thing DGA did with the Stingray, which was moderately successful.


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Are there any plans to produce the stingray in champion again?

Are there any plans to produce the stingray in champion again?

Yes, at some point not yet determined. We may even try a new type Stingray with less low speed fade.

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Are there any plans to produce the stingray in champion again?



Mark at DG Values had some Champion Stingrays stamped up along with some 11X Glow TeeBirds, not TLs.

Check it!

https://www.discgolfvalues.com/store/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=364

Yes, at some point not yet determined. We may even try a new type Stingray with less low speed fade.

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Why would you do that? I think stingray throwers like that low speed fade. But I don't throw Stingrays. JMO

Why would you do that? I think stingray throwers like that low speed fade. But I don't throw Stingrays. JMO

I probably should have said: A new disc like the Stingray. I did not mean to imply that I would change the Stingray.

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Hey Dave,

Will you consider to make Champion Gazelle again?? like CFR? I prefer stiff not gummy...

Hey Dave,

Will you consider to make Champion Gazelle again?? like CFR? I prefer stiff not gummy...

Yes, and most like for CFR. As soon as we can.

There are two conflicting descriptions. Stingray top and Innova bottom means nothing. Roc top with Stingray wing could be one of two different discs. Aurora or DGA Pro for one, and potentially a rarer disc that I don't recall the name of that was similar to a second generation Hammer without a bead.
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Is that the "2500" or whatever I see online occasionally? I got one but it was actually a Proto Shark, the seller just wasnt sure as it was blank.

Is that the "2500" or whatever I see online occasionally? I got one but it was actually a Proto Shark, the seller just wasnt sure as it was blank.


The 2500 is definitely something like that. It was something like a 2nd generation Hammer/Stingray or 3rd generation Hammer/Viper.
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The Sentinel used to be, or maybe still is a favorite of Steve Brinster.


Still is. Only the Q though, he has at least 3 in the bag.

Champ Glow Leopard, any plans to make one?

Are Scorpions still in production?

Are Scorpions still in production?

Not for awhile. Quite awhile. You can still find them at most Play It Again Sports...used.

Champ Glow Leopard, any plans to make one?


It would be for CFR.

Are Scorpions still in production?

As Chase said, the mold is not in current production. The mold still exists
and could be run in the future. It is a 187gm max disc.

Champ Glow Leopard, any plans to make one?

It would be for CFR.

Sweet. I know lots of people would be interested in glow mold of one of the straightest flying easiest throwing discs of all time!

Champ Glow Leopard, any plans to make one?

leopards in champ glow would be amazing.
any though to making an echo leopard?
Why is it echo and not eco?
Thanks

Hey Dave,

Will you consider to make Champion Gazelle again?? like CFR? I prefer stiff not gummy...


Once again,

Mark at DG Values has Champion Gazelles. Gummy and stiff.

https://www.discgolfvalues.com/store/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=355

https://www.discgolfvalues.com/store/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=354

Dave,
I'm noticing that the newest Destroyers are marked S-DS, rather than *DS, and the older S/DS. What is the difference? It seems to me that these newer ones are more stable and have a slightly bigger dome.

Dave,
I'm noticing that the newest Destroyers are marked S-DS, rather than *DS, and the older S/DS. What is the difference? It seems to me that these newer ones are more stable and have a slightly bigger dome.

Please, big disc man in the sky, let the answer to this question be that they are stabilized like the star nightshift so I can stop trying to collect all 122 of them.

Please, big disc man in the sky, let the answer to this question be that they are stabilized like the star nightshift so I can stop trying to collect all 122 of them.

The echo destroyers are the most amazing destroyers ever made. Not quite as stable as the nightshift but pretty close with much more glide. Mine go further and are much easier to throw than my bosses.

leopards in champ glow would be amazing.
any though to making an echo leopard?
Why is it echo and not eco?
Thanks

There have been green echo Leos out for about the last year or so

Hey Dave,

I was wondering if you guys still make the 'Throw Art' line.

Here's what I'm talking about: http://www.innovadiscs.com/downloads/Fullcolorupdate.jpg

I would just like to know how I could purchase some.

Thanks,
rizbee_jr

World Distance records, Open division, Progressive (meters)

1970 Victor Malafronte USA 84.10* Wham-O Professional Model
1970 Bob May USA 85.04* Wham-O Professional Model **
1974 Kirkland, John USA 83.23 Wham-O Professional Model **
1974 Victor Malafronte USA 114.30* CPI All Star
1974 Dave Johnson USA 115.20* CPI All Star
1975 Dave Johnson USA 88.67*** Wham-O Professional Model
1976 Dave Johnson USA 125.57 Wham-O 119g
1978 John Kirkland USA 135.30 Wham-O/DGA Night Flyer 40 **
1980 Dave Dunipace USA 139.63* Wham-O/DGA Midnight Flyer 41, 141g
1980 Van Miller USA 142.90* Brand X (40X), 172g
1980 Tetsuro Arita JPN 152.40 Wham-O Fastback **
1982 P�l Brostr�m SWE 152.45 Wham-O/DGA Midnight Flyer 70c
1983 Marten Sandorf DEN 166.42 Wham-O/Farusa Midnight Sun 70c
1984 Frank Aquilera USA 167.88 Innova-Champion Aero
1987 Michael Canci AUS 186.83 Lightning P38
1988 Sam Ferrans USA 190.07 Innova Phenix, 176g
1993 Peter Albers USA 193.58 Innova Viper
1993 Niclas Bergehamm SWE 197.38 Innova Viper, 179g
1995 Scott Stokley USA 200.01 Discraft X-clone, 169g
1998 Scott Stokley USA 211.32 Discraft XL, 169g
2001 Chris Voigt GER 217.05 Discraft XS, 170g
2002 Ken Jarvis USA 247.00 Innova DX Teebird
2002 Christian Sandstr�m SWE 250.00 Innova DX Valkyrie, 168g
--
* These results are for some reason not included in the WFDF archive list on the
early world records, but are documented in other places that can be regarded as
credible.
** It's not 100% verified which discs were used for these results. I've got
comments like "I think�" or "I'm almost certain that�" from players with
memories of the early records. Unfortunately the discs used are not part of
the official archives.
*** This result is included in the WFDF record list. Dave Johnson himself has
told me that this actually was an indoor record. Set with a Wham-O World Class
119g in the Los Angeles Convention center in connection with the 1975 World
Frisbee Championships.
This list researched and compiled by area46�the frisbee/flying disc zone:

http://www.area46.se
(http://www.area46.se) ----

hey Dave -- there was no such thing as champion plastic in 1984 so it was an Innova DX Aero that Frank Aquilera threw 167.88 meters (550 ft) -- yes? ...how far would you guess your out-of-bounds throw went that year?

Also, it has been 8 years since Sandstrom set the present record. What disc(s) do you think have the best potential to break it?

[QUOTE=AviarX;1408031]----

hey Dave -- there was no such thing as champion plastic in 1984 so it was an Innova DX Aero that Frank Aquilera threw 167.88 meters (550 ft) -- yes? ...how far would you guess your out-of-bounds throw went that year?

QUOTE]

It was DX-like plastic the Aero was made of. But Innova started out as 'Champion Discs'. Then they changed their name to 'Innova-Champion Discs'. In 1984, I think DX was the only kind of plastic. So, "Innova-Champion" was the term used for the brand.

I think this is correct. Dave? :D

[QUOTE=AviarX;1408031]----

hey Dave -- there was no such thing as champion plastic in 1984 so it was an Innova DX Aero that Frank Aquilera threw 167.88 meters (550 ft) -- yes? ...how far would you guess your out-of-bounds throw went that year?

QUOTE]

It was DX-like plastic the Aero was made of. But Innova started out as 'Champion Discs'. Then they changed their name to 'Innova-Champion Discs'. In 1984, I think DX was the only kind of plastic. So, "Innova-Champion" was the term used for the brand.

I think this is correct. Dave? :D

I am not Dave D, but you are correct.

leopards in champ glow would be amazing.
any though to making an echo leopard?
Why is it echo and not eco?
Thanks

The Leopard is a candidate for Echo. We changed the name from Eco to Echo because we didn't want to confuse anyone as to the origin. Echo is post production and mostly pre-consumer recycled plastic. The Eco was associate with post consumer recycling.

Dave,
I'm noticing that the newest Destroyers are marked S-DS, rather than *DS, and the older S/DS. What is the difference? It seems to me that these newer ones are more stable and have a slightly bigger dome.

The *and S markings are both used and mean the same thing. The differences in the discs can be attributed to variations from run to run.

Hey Dave,

I was wondering if you guys still make the 'Throw Art' line.

Here's what I'm talking about: http://www.innovadiscs.com/downloads/Fullcolorupdate.jpg

I would just like to know how I could purchase some.

Thanks,
rizbee_jr

These were all done by the East Coast office. Most, if not all were done with the Full Color process, which is no longer available. The East office may still have some or know someone who does.

----

hey Dave -- there was no such thing as champion plastic in 1984 so it was an Innova DX Aero that Frank Aquilera threw 167.88 meters (550 ft) -- yes? ...how far would you guess your out-of-bounds throw went that year?

Also, it has been 8 years since Sandstrom set the present record. What disc(s) do you think have the best potential to break it?

Hard to tell how far mine went but much farther than the record. I got a great lift from the wind. I don't think Frank's could have gone further as it would have hit a fence.

I was discussing which discs have the best potential for the record yesterday with Jussi Meresmaa. Jussi said last years winner was a Roadrunner. He does not think the wider rimmed discs have an advantage over the speed 9 discs. My opinion is a disc with good glide and a characteristic that fits the throwers style and the wind that day. If I were going to throw, I would use a Pro Katana. I don't know if the world beaters could control a Pro Katana. I think they would be better off with a Pro Boss. The trick to throwing very long distances is to get altitude and good sail position on a good wind. Good sail position involves tacking direction, banking angle, and nose attitude. Nose attitude is hugely critical with long distance throws. If the nose is up at all, the throw will fail in all wind conditions. If the nose is down too far, (because the disc is too flippy or the throw too sloppy), the disc will roll.

If it were an indoor record, the disc choice would be a lot more critical and the higher speed discs would win. Because it is outdoors and the wind plays a big part, it becomes a combination of things that could potentially converge to produce a 900 ft 150 gm Aviar throw. I watched Harold Duvall do that in a Santa Ana wind 30+mph in Ontario, Ca.

Nose sensitivity is the problem with the high speed drivers.

Hard to tell how far mine went but much farther than the record. I got a great lift from the wind. I don't think Frank's could have gone further as it would have hit a fence.

I was discussing which discs have the best potential for the record yesterday with Jussi Meresmaa. Jussi said last years winner was a Roadrunner. He does not think the wider rimmed discs have an advantage over the speed 9 discs. My opinion is a disc with good glide and a characteristic that fits the throwers style and the wind that day. If I were going to throw, I would use a Pro Katana. I don't know if the world beaters could control a Pro Katana. I think they would be better off with a Pro Boss. The trick to throwing very long distances is to get altitude and good sail position on a good wind. Good sail position involves tacking direction, banking angle, and nose attitude. Nose attitude is hugely critical with long distance throws. If the nose is up at all, the throw will fail in all wind conditions. If the nose is down too far, (because the disc is too flippy or the throw too sloppy), the disc will roll.

If it were an indoor record, the disc choice would be a lot more critical and the higher speed discs would win. Because it is outdoors and the wind plays a big part, it becomes a combination of things that could potentially converge to produce a 900 ft 150 gm Aviar throw. I watched Harold Duvall do that in a Santa Ana wind 30+mph in Ontario, Ca.

Nose sensitivity is the problem with the high speed drivers.



Crap, I thought I threw far but,
Man 550 with an aero........we all are wimpy arms throwing fast discs. Please tell me they were throwing on a high plateau in a hurricane.

Pretty sure Frank beat the record here in Vegas.

Pretty sure Frank beat the record here in Vegas.

Yes, it was at some school in Las Vegas, and not near the strip.

[QUOTE=grizzly09;1408038]

I am not Dave D, but you are correct.

I love it. My kid, the disc historian, answering questions about plastic that was produced seven years before he was born. Good god, what have I created?

Hey Dave - have you produced any discs yet using Star-lite, and if so, which ones and how low do they go?

Hey Dave - have you produced any discs yet using Star-lite, and if so, which ones and how low do they go?

Star lite Bosses went down to 165-166gms. We tried it in Destroyer, Wraith, and DD (Dismania). Possibly in XCalibers. None of the other tests were compelling as the discs became too overstable.

Star lite Bosses went down to 165-166gms. We tried it in Destroyer, Wraith, and DD (Dismania). Possibly in XCalibers. None of the other tests were compelling as the discs became too overstable.

So wait a sec, are you saying there are 165-170 DDs (second run, I assume) that are supposedly a little more stable? I recently purchased 2 Hysteria DDs (173/4) and they seem much more understable than the First Runs....

So wait a sec, are you saying there are 165-170 DDs (second run, I assume) that are supposedly a little more stable? I recently purchased 2 Hysteria DDs (173/4) and they seem much more understable than the First Runs....

No. The only Starlite that were sold, were Bosses. We merely tested the others.

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No. The only Starlite that were sold, were Bosses. We merely tested the others.

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was that the slightly transparent but still opaque star plastic that had a slight sparkle to it?

Dave, any chance of doing stabilized star versions of your fairway drivers, primarily the TeeBird??

Dave, any chance of doing stabilized star versions of your fairway drivers, primarily the TeeBird??

Check out a champ glow or echo teebird. Usually a bit more overstable than other plastics.

Check out a champ glow or echo teebird. Usually a bit more overstable than other plastics.

I've got Echo's. They're real domey and are pretty straight. Never tried a champ glow one before. Only the CFR TL.

was that the slightly transparent but still opaque star plastic that had a slight sparkle to it?


I don't recall any transparency, but there was at times a slight sparkly/grainy look to the rim.

Dave, any chance of doing stabilized star versions of your fairway drivers, primarily the TeeBird??

Yes, I believe we have done some in the past. Not sure how many or where they went. We will do some in the future.

[QUOTE=mf100forever;1408069]

I love it. My kid, the disc historian, answering questions about plastic that was produced seven years before he was born. Good god, what have I created?

intimidating ;-P

Hello Everyone. I am new to this forum, and have really been enjoying this thread specifically. I have read through most of it but I am having trouble finding a few answers .... so if Davei or anyone can answer it would be appreciated

1. Are there any distinguishing characteristics to identify 'stabilized' discs?

2. Could someone provide a little background for me on what the nightshift orcs, destroyers are all about?

Night Shift Orcs are the best Orcs ever made. Small batch never duplicated correctly. For me, the Destroyer or Tulsa Orcs didnt cut it, but thats me.

how were they so different?

1. Are there any distinguishing characteristics to identify 'stabilized' discs?



http://www.innovadiscs.com/discs/index.html

Dave,
Any Chance of running more 12XKC Pro Black Aviars? I found them to be more like the 11Xs. A bit softer to the touch but still a stiff disc. I find the 12Xs some have a dome and some have a sunk or flat top. It's tough to find some that are the same.
Why did they change so much from 11X to 12X and the 10X for that matter?

Dave,
I have a glow Champion Eagle from the 2003 Gentlemens Club Classic. Would this be CE plastic or regular champ?

Thanks

I would definitely get plenty of the Innova "Throw Art" Skull designs myself. I didn't know about that line either.

Dave,
Any Chance of running more 12XKC Pro Black Aviars? I found them to be more like the 11Xs. A bit softer to the touch but still a stiff disc. I find the 12Xs some have a dome and some have a sunk or flat top. It's tough to find some that are the same.
Why did they change so much from 11X to 12X and the 10X for that matter?

The composition (material) is supposed to be identical. It's a little different with each batch we get from the manufacturer. Even the natural color changes.
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Dave,
I have a glow Champion Eagle from the 2003 Gentlemens Club Classic. Would this be CE plastic or regular champ?

Thanks

Probably regular champion, but I don't really know.
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Dave with the release of the new echo boss's
They are very soft and have very little dome
Are they going to be more stable or less stable than the 167 star boss's which i found to be the more stable version of the boss.
Also is it possible to get the Echo down to the 167 weight range if so maybe this would make it more stable and give it that dome that most everyone looks for in their echo discs (xcals, dest)
thanks in advance

http://www.innovadiscs.com/discs/index.html

That's pretty useless.

http://www.innovadiscs.com/discs/index.html

I'm pretty sure he's asking about the various "stabilization process" that Dave has discussed on this thread. Adorably smart-assed as it may be, I don't really see how a link to Innova's stability chart will help.

2. Could someone provide a little background for me on what the nightshift orcs, destroyers are all about?

Nightshift Orcs were the precursor to Star plastic. The nightshift at Innova came up with it while making Champion or Pro Orcs. The distinguishing characteristics (I think) were they were opaque and tacky/grippier than Champion. According to legend, the Nightshift Orcs were especially stable and durable and attained some of the allure & mystique of old school CE plastic. They were definitely found desirably different by many Orc lovers.

later, Tulsa hosted Amateur Worlds and Innova made Special Blend Orcs as a fundraiser. Kevin McCoy might have had a hand in this? The Tulsa SB Orcs were opaque and pretty much second generation nightshift Orcs. Speaking from personal experience, they were fabulous (durable, stable, etc.). I believe it was the plastic itself which distinguished them. Grippy and long like Pro but durable as any Champion. I have never thrown a first generation nightshift Orc, but the Tulsa ones are good enough for me.

Innova subsequently released 'Star' plastic after the Special Blend Tulsa Orcs. I would call Star plastic third generation nightshift.

Not sure about Destroyers. Maybe a few got made with nightshift like properties?

I am not an expert on any of this so I am just throwing out there what my take is since noone seems to have addressed your question. Too bad Felix Sung effectively got banned from here by the members-only posting rule passed by the PDGA BoD because he was an irreplaceable voice of competent, informed, explanation.

my recommendation is do not get lured into expensive discs described as 'nightshift' or with other mythic monikers unless you know the seller, know exactly what the disc is and feel you really have to have it.

AVIAR x

I think he was asking about the Nightshift - Bosses, Destroyers and Orcs that were sold by Disc Golf Values about a year ago using the new stablization process. Thebosses and destroyers were stamped with the mini proto star and bar stamps and the orcs were stamped with the DX orc stamp, all were the same bluish star blend dubbed "nightshift blue".

http://cgi.ebay.com/INNOVA-NIGHT-SHIFT-DX-STAMP-STAR-ORC-DISC-GOLF-DRIVER_W0QQitemZ310193976796QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_ DefaultDomain_0?hash=item48390075dc

Oh, I did buy one of those DX stamped Orcs from Mark -- never threw it though. It is the same color and opaqueness as my SB Orcs...

If the ones with the added stabilization are refered to as 'nightshift' as well that muddies the waters. Originally nightshift refered to Orcs that the nightshift created. Dave -- are these considered nightshift too?

Can someone post a timeline of the evolution of what 'nightshift' refers to which Dave can then vet?

Dave with the release of the new echo boss's
They are very soft and have very little dome
Are they going to be more stable or less stable than the 167 star boss's which i found to be the more stable version of the boss.
Also is it possible to get the Echo down to the 167 weight range if so maybe this would make it more stable and give it that dome that most everyone looks for in their echo discs (xcals, dest)
thanks in advance

I don't know what that does as I would have needed to test it. I didn't. We ran some flattish softish Bosses recently as in the past they turned out to be a little flippier and faster. That didn't happen. They were just as stable as the firmer domier Bosses. It's gotten very difficult to predict flight characteristics of wide wing discs based on how they look out of the mold. Some domey Bosses are flippy and some are stable. Some flat Bosses have been very stable and some very flippy.

It may be possible to use the Starlite process with Echo. We have not yet tried it. Good idea though. It should, in theory, lighten it and stable it up at the same time. That's the theory any way.

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Oh, I did buy one of those DX stamped Orcs from Mark -- never threw it though. It is the same color and opaqueness as my SB Orcs...

If the ones with the added stabilization are refered to as 'nightshift' as well that muddies the waters. Originally nightshift refered to Orcs that the nightshift created. Dave -- are these considered nightshift too?

Can someone post a timeline of the evolution of what 'nightshift' refers to which Dave can then vet?

The original "nightshift" Orcs were opaque blue. Later, we used the stabilization process to "recreate" "nightshift"-like Orcs. They were Star Orcs which had been stabilized. These were made for Tulsa. There weren't very many of the originals, as I recall. Maybe two or three hundred.

The Star plastic did come from the Nightshift Orcs, but regular Star does nothing to enhance stability just grippiness. Stability is another process.

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Nightshift Orcs were the precursor to Star plastic. The nightshift at Innova came up with it while making Champion or Pro Orcs. The distinguishing characteristics (I think) were they were opaque and tacky/grippier than Champion. According to legend, the Nightshift Orcs were especially stable and durable and attained some of the allure & mystique of old school CE plastic. They were definitely found desirably different by many Orc lovers.

later, Tulsa hosted Amateur Worlds and Innova made Special Blend Orcs as a fundraiser. Kevin McCoy might have had a hand in this? The Tulsa SB Orcs were opaque and pretty much second generation nightshift Orcs. Speaking from personal experience, they were fabulous (durable, stable, etc.). I believe it was the plastic itself which distinguished them. Grippy and long like Pro but durable as any Champion. I have never thrown a first generation nightshift Orc, but the Tulsa ones are good enough for me.

Innova subsequently released 'Star' plastic after the Special Blend Tulsa Orcs. I would call Star plastic third generation nightshift.

Not sure about Destroyers. Maybe a few got made with nightshift like properties?

I am not an expert on any of this so I am just throwing out there what my take is since noone seems to have addressed your question. Too bad Felix Sung effectively got banned from here by the members-only posting rule passed by the PDGA BoD because he was an irreplaceable voice of competent, informed, explanation.

my recommendation is do not get lured into expensive discs described as 'nightshift' or with other mythic monikers unless you know the seller, know exactly what the disc is and feel you really have to have it.


Thanks! Exactly what I was wondering about.

How about the 'stabilization' process? Is there any way to tell apart a destroyer that has been stabilized vs. one that has not ... I guess apart from the obvious of grabbing a stack and taking them to the football field?

For example you can generally tell a first run boss apart from the feldys by the grippier CFR type plastic and the more pronounced 'ridge' (I guess you could call it) on the flight plate.

How about the 'stabilization' process? Is there any way to tell apart a destroyer that has been stabilized vs. one that has not ... I guess apart from the obvious of grabbing a stack and taking them to the football field?

For example you can generally tell a first run boss apart from the feldys by the grippier CFR type plastic and the more pronounced 'ridge' (I guess you could call it) on the flight plate.

No consistent way to tell, but usually, the stabilization process is reserved for Champion as opposed to Star. Also, the stabilized discs tend to be a little firmer.

Hey Dave you may already have this in the works but I am very interested in a really stable speed 13 driver,
What I was really wanting was a faster MAX, something that I can throw downhill or in a headwind and I dont have to worry about it flipping over but rather hold a hyzer line for the entire flight path.
Just something that I feel would be a good fit in your lineup

Sorry I have been busy.

NightShift Orcs came in RED, BLUE, TEAL and YELLOW. Though there are some yellow out there that are actually mistamped Pro Orcs. If you bought a yellow one from a Pro player out of the Michigan/Wisconsin region around that time and its yellow, yours may be a Pro Orc. NS Orcs were opaque. 100%. No other Champion disc was, so they were easy to spot and some leaked out to random dealers from all over. A friend of mine was at a head shop in Iowa City and got 2 out of thier bins. They had no idea they were even different, he did and scooped them up. Those were the first I seen, a Red and a Yellow, and I have them both. I think RED is by far the rarest of all. I have seen one other that I can recall.

IMO, they are one of the better plastic mixs, and those were not "stabilized", they were actually more overstable than standard Champion Orcs. That was one of the big things about them at the time, you could crush them, even on anny and they would hold forever. I have heard only a few hundred up to 5-or 600 total released. I guess it would factor on run size during that timeframe. If I remember correctly, I dont think the higher ups were pleased that these discs were made, but I guess Dave could weigh in there.

The Tulsa Orcs were good discs, but neither the plastic or flight didnt match up for me. The plastic was better than average, as I had some 11x KC Teebirds that were in the same plastic that were sick. They still float around occasionally and are noticably different than other 11x KCs.

Yeah, Star plastic is loosely based on the Night Shift plastic from the first batch of Orcs more so than the Tulsas, at least thats what I thought, could also be based on some of the CE plastic as well. I have several Champion stamped -Star proto discs, but I dont think it was totally decided those would become thier own line, I think it was going to be a second option within Champion plastic. Once it came to play though, I think the costs made it move up in price, thus becoming its own line of plastic, more or less. Im sure Dave could also explain that better than I did as I only remember so much.

Original NightShift plastic is softer, and feels aged when its new. If you are familiar with some of the middle runs of softer CE plastic, the plastic that was more pastel and when used got a leathery feel to it, thats original nightshift, more or less.

I have several and really could care less about selling them, which is why they carry a high pricetag. With all the differnt Orcs out there now, I dont think they are worth buying to throw, but they do have a pretty important history when it comes to where we are now. ...and they are the best Orcs ever.

Yes, at some point not yet determined. We may even try a new type Stingray with less low speed fade.

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That's just not fair, foreshadowing with no actual indication of delivery time... :) I can't think of a better disc though than a stingray with no fade. Will you guys do a Champion version of the NLSF Stingray, if you produce it at all that is?

That's just not fair, foreshadowing with no actual indication of delivery time... :) I can't think of a better disc though than a stingray with no fade. Will you guys do a Champion version of the NLSF Stingray, if you produce it at all that is?

***drool***

That's just not fair, foreshadowing with no actual indication of delivery time... :) I can't think of a better disc though than a stingray with no fade. Will you guys do a Champion version of the NLSF Stingray, if you produce it at all that is?

Just to be clear, it would be LLSF rather than NLSF. We would probably test it in Champion, and if feasible run it in Champion. Sometimes that is not possible, so we would run it in Star, which is easier to heavy weights in.

Just to be clear, it would be LLSF rather than NLSF. We would probably test it in Champion, and if feasible run it in Champion. Sometimes that is not possible, so we would run it in Star, which is easier to heavy weights in.

Too late, the expectation is set, NLSF, you're stuck with it; see, Rizbee is already drooling. Actually, LLSF is fine, just give it to me baby!

I have heard only a few hundred up to 5-or 600 total released. I guess it would factor on run size during that timeframe. If I remember correctly, I dont think the higher ups were pleased that these discs were made, but I guess Dave could weigh in there.

you seem privy to a lot of inside info about nightshift Orcs -- if i may ask: how did you acquire this knowledge?

Some questions for Dave:

1. Someone at clearwater disc golf said they weren't sure but maybe the Pro Leopard was going to be discontinued. Is that true?! That would be sad.

2. Why is there no Teebird in pro plastic? I'm aware of the TLs that were made in pro for a while, but I'm curious, why no standard Teebird in pro?

Hey Dave you may already have this in the works but I am very interested in a really stable speed 13 driver,
What I was really wanting was a faster MAX, something that I can throw downhill or in a headwind and I dont have to worry about it flipping over but rather hold a hyzer line for the entire flight path.
Just something that I feel would be a good fit in your lineup

Some questions for Dave:

1. Someone at clearwater disc golf said they weren't sure but maybe the Pro Leopard was going to be discontinued. Is that true?! That would be sad.

2. Why is there no Teebird in pro plastic? I'm aware of the TLs that were made in pro for a while, but I'm curious, why no standard Teebird in pro?

1. The Pro Leopard is still being made. Even when we previously decided to cut back on Pro, the Leopard, Valkyrie, and Beast would have been continued. We were able to obtain more Pro material and have no need to discontinue any model with sufficient demand.

2. No demand that we are aware of.

Hey Dave you may already have this in the works but I am very interested in a really stable speed 13 driver,
What I was really wanting was a faster MAX, something that I can throw downhill or in a headwind and I dont have to worry about it flipping over but rather hold a hyzer line for the entire flight path.
Just something that I feel would be a good fit in your lineup

We have something in the works.

Faster Orignal TEE-REX? nonTeeRex-X

you seem privy to a lot of inside info about nightshift Orcs -- if i may ask: how did you acquire this knowledge?

I am Chase.

LOL, J/K. Alot of insight from Dave D and a few other people that could shed light on the subject. The same goes along with the Star plastic comments. Its also a tribute to my memory. Its fantastic when it comes to disc golf discs and info.

i think that if you could create a disc like the 10x teebird, using the pro-type plastic that the discmania pro pd's are run in, and have it mold up like the other teebirds, meaning not too domey like early pro teebirds and TL's, you would have a HUGE demand. I throw dx tees as my main drivers, and would definitely go to the hypothetical new pro teebird. I ran out of my 10x's long ago and found the dx to be similar in flight and "seasoning".
thanks for your time

hey Dave, in testing the pro katanas, did you or anyone try backhand rollers with them?

Faster Orignal TEE-REX? nonTeeRex-X

Something like that.

hey Dave, in testing the pro katanas, did you or anyone try backhand rollers with them?

Yes, I did and they are very long rollers.

hey Dave, in testing the pro katanas, did you or anyone try backhand rollers with them?

You can CRUSH rollers with this disc. Just needs to come out in cahmp plastic before I replace my existing roller disc with it.

I threw a sky roller with my Star one over a tree on an escape shot, and it turned out to be an amazing roller.

What can you tell us about the XG Boss?

I ordered some on the recommendation
of Jason Southwick. What does he know?

steve timm
td NOTeam '10 Pot of Gold

What can you tell us about the XG Boss?

I ordered some on the recommendation
of Jason Southwick. What does he know?

steve timm
td NOTeam '10 Pot of Gold

What is an XG Boss?
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What can you tell us about the XG Boss?

I ordered some on the recommendation
of Jason Southwick. What does he know?

steve timm
td NOTeam '10 Pot of Gold

Okay, after searching on line for XG Boss, I found out what they were. It was a recent attempt, (by me), to make gummy Bosses like some of the first runs. They didn't turn out like the first ones. They ended up being a little softer and grippier, but didn't have any turn like the first ones.

We were going to use these for US Masters, but because they were just as stable as any Champion Boss, we decided not to.

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While we are on the boss topic. Why is it that the first runs champion bosses (star stamp and 2008 usdgc stamp) have significantly smaller mold lines than normal production champion bosses?

While we are on the boss topic. Why is it that the first runs champion bosses (star stamp and 2008 usdgc stamp) have significantly smaller mold lines than normal production champion bosses?

Sorry. What's a mold line?

Sorry. What's a mold line?

Flashing? I have a couple champ bosses that are super sharp on the bottom rim. This might be the "mold line".

i believe he means the line between the top flight plane mold of the disc and the bottom rim mold. if you look, you can usually see a small edge of plastic that sticks out slightly near the beveled edge of the disc.

My first run bosses do seem to have a smaller mold line as compared to the initial production run bosses. The production bosses appear a tad thicker in overall height of the disc due to this.

Here is a pic of the Mold Line.... and its from a Star Boss (only disc that I had here at work... a Man's got to take a break from time to time and chuck some plastic)

http://i711.photobucket.com/albums/ww115/CodyFLee/Mobile%20Uploads/StarBoss-1.jpg

the small blackish/gray line is where dirt has collected on the mold line from the 2 halves of the mold.

I do not think that is what you think it is

Sorry. What's a mold line?

I think he's asking about the mold parting line between the two halfs of the molds or any inserts that may be used. The common man refers to these as mold lines. :D

Dave I have a question, is Innova currently running any Red or Green colored JK Aviar-x's? I have Blue, Black, Yellow & Orange. I need a Red and a Green one. Any other colors that I'm missing?

Thanks,
Tim Red Beard (TRB)

White?

what i meant by mold line was the small sharp feeling line of flashing that goes around the bottom of the rim (not the outside of the rim but the edge that is on the inner most part of the rim that the end of your finger wraps around). the newer bosses seem to have a sharper and more distinct feel than the first runs.

what i meant by mold line was the small sharp feeling line of flashing that goes around the bottom of the rim (not the outside of the rim but the edge that is on the inner most part of the rim that the end of your finger wraps around). the newer bosses seem to have a sharper and more distinct feel than the first runs.

Bottom edge parting line flash. The mold is wearing, most like due to excessive cleaning. We're in the process of fixing those types of problems.
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Dave I have a question, is Innova currently running any Red or Green colored JK Aviar-x's? I have Blue, Black, Yellow & Orange. I need a Red and a Green one. Any other colors that I'm missing?

Thanks,
Tim Red Beard (TRB)


Sorry, don't know the current colors. We have run a light green in the past. Red is a little more difficult, but we will run that in the future.
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Hi Dave. Are you making the JK-Aviars in R-Pro plastic, and when will they be out. I like the Aviar P&A in R-Pro, but want more stability. Also, great work on the Katana!

Hi Dave. Are you making the JK-Aviars in R-Pro plastic, and when will they be out. I like the Aviar P&A in R-Pro, but want more stability. Also, great work on the Katana!

Hey Joe,
We are going to be making them in R-Pro. They have been out for a while. May I presume your question has to do with the softness? We will be making softer next run.
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I think there were pink JK's

Hey just wondering if there is going to be a signature avery disc for his worlds win? Also will there be a Niko roc for his usdgc win?

Hey just wondering if there is going to be a signature avery disc for his worlds win? Also will there be a Niko roc for his usdgc win?

Avery is going to have his signature on a Star Destroyer. I don't know about the Nikko Roc, but you could ask usdgc.

Rocs that depicted the winners in their stamped were created in 2004 (Battle Roc), 2005 (Kenny 4x), 2008 (Kenny 5x) and 2009 (Nate Roc). Since last year was the first year that they included a non Innova player in their designs, I could see a Nikko Roc. Plus, it would be cool if each year there was a stamp dedicated to the past year's champion.

Avery is going to have his signature on a Star Destroyer. I don't know about the Nikko Roc, but you could ask usdgc.

Are the Avery destroyers going to be stabilized? Why not the excal?

Are the Avery destroyers going to be stabilized? Why not the excal?

Regular unstabilized Star Destroyers. He wanted the Destroyer.

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Dave, I have a mystery disc that I am wondering about. It is a 168g CLEAR zipper top marked VL. It has a *Innova Factory Second* stamp. We think it's a viking but I've never seen a clear viking. Thanks!

Dave, I have a mystery disc that I am wondering about. It is a 168g CLEAR zipper top marked VL. It has a *Innova Factory Second* stamp. We think it's a viking but I've never seen a clear viking. Thanks!

VL, it is a Valkyrie

Hey Davei, how long before we can get the AJ one time Destroyer? I am looking forward to this. Thanks for your time.
-Jesse

Hey Davei, how long before we can get the AJ one time Destroyer? I am looking forward to this. Thanks for your time.
-Jesse


Not sure when the first will be stamped, but we have the stamp ready for the next time we need them.
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Dave, those soft champ bosses feel great, no matter how they will fly. These would sell either way I think.

Dave, do you have a preliminary release date on the new Roc?
What will the flight ratings be?

Dave, do you have a preliminary release date on the new Roc?
What will the flight ratings be?

We haven't decided what to do with it except use it for INNColor, at this point. The flight numbers are the same.

Dave,

Lost one of my proline (champion plastic) beasts down at the IDGC this past weekend.

Beautiful shot, bad tree stump, and splash goes the water....

Anyway, have you thought about bringing back the original beast mold and advertising it as the "classic beast"? Maybe even as a fundraising disc?

I have a dwindling stack of old mold beasts and would love to be able to pick them up from the store.

orc is basically the old-mold beast.

They have old mold beasts here:

http://www.marshallstreetdiscgolf.com/product/ST-6127/Marshall-Street-Beast/

orc is basically the old-mold beast.
Yes but todays Orc is not Yesteryears OM Beast

I bought 2 new orcs and they were way stable and so was the beast I bought I 2 wish they had a old type beast

I stocked up on old Champ Orcs before the clearer runs came out, becasue they used to be my go-to driver, but now I really don't need all of them.

PM me if you want to work something out

Dave, did the Discmania CD mold change? Someone posted a picture of a one of the new stamped ones on DGR, and it looks like the PD top. Sort of like the difference between the proto and production PD.

New CD (Craze) vs Old CD
http://i49.tinypic.com/2wh4ehx.png

PD (Freak) vs New CD (Craze)
http://i48.tinypic.com/1z2ix6x.png

Dave, did the Discmania CD mold change? Someone posted a picture of a one of the new stamped ones on DGR, and it looks like the PD top. Sort of like the difference between the proto and production PD.

New CD (Craze) vs Old CD
http://i49.tinypic.com/2wh4ehx.png

PD (Freak) vs New CD (Craze)
http://i48.tinypic.com/1z2ix6x.png

The "First Run" was actually a proto. There were very few of those made.
All of the Discmania drivers have the same characteristic look now. As far as the way they fly, they should be very similar.

Dave, when you say 'similar', I assume you mean the "First Run" CD is similar to the new "Craze" CD?

For what it's worth, I'm glad you changed the CD. I have a few of the XMas PDs (the one with the same top as the 1st Run CD), and enjoy the production ones more.

Hey Joe,
We are going to be making them in R-Pro. They have been out for a while. May I presume your question has to do with the softness? We will be making softer next run.
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"They have been out for a while?"
Please clarify as I've yet to find any JK Aviars made with R-Pro material (or at least a BB Aviar in R-Pro)available either online or on Innova's page.

This would be my dream putter and I prefer to support businesses here in SC!

"They have been out for a while?"
Please clarify as I've yet to find any JK Aviars made with R-Pro material (or at least a BB Aviar in R-Pro)available either online or on Innova's page.

This would be my dream putter and I prefer to support businesses here in SC!

The Pro Rhyno and the JK were the first R-Pro discs essentially. Some R-Pro is a little stiffer and some a little softer. Some feel a little stiffer or softer due to the structure of the disc.

What quality are you looking for?
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Hi dave-
can you describe the flight (w/ comparisons) of the new production discmania control drivers? I really love the power driver, especially in the p plastic.
thanks

Hi dave-
can you describe the flight (w/ comparisons) of the new production discmania control drivers? I really love the power driver, especially in the p plastic.
thanks

The CD is basically a less over stable version of the PD.

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The Pro Rhyno and the JK were the first R-Pro discs essentially.


The only R-Pro Aviars I have seen are beadless. My JKs have a bead.

Dave,
when was the AviarXD made? will it ever get made again?
Thanks

'84 or '85. The XD is still available.

The only R-Pro Aviars I have seen are beadless. My JKs have a bead.

All JKs are big bead driver Aviars. All are some form of R-Pro. None are called R-Pro JKs. They are still called JK Aviars. The newest runs have flight numbers.

Dave is there any chance of getting the JK's run again in the type of plastic that the 3X's JK's were run in? I got my hands on a 3X's JK and it's night and day when it comes to the softness and grip of the 3X's vs. the 5X's ones.

All JKs are big bead driver Aviars. All are some form of R-Pro. None are called R-Pro JKs. They are still called JK Aviars. The newest runs have flight numbers.

Dave, this is the question we all are asking: how are the JKs identified as R-Pro and therefore soft ones? Does is say R on the bottom, on top? I know the mold is called JK Pro Aviar, but I usually order online, and I want to know what I'm getting. I want JK Aviars in the R-Pro plastic that approximates the R-Pro P&A softness. Thank you so much.

will the r pro rhynos be stamped "r pro rhynos" or just have the flight numbers on it to identify them?
Thanks!

Dave, this is the question we all are asking: how are the JKs identified as R-Pro and therefore soft ones? Does is say R on the bottom, on top? I know the mold is called JK Pro Aviar, but I usually order online, and I want to know what I'm getting. I want JK Aviars in the R-Pro plastic that approximates the R-Pro P&A softness. Thank you so much.

Okay. I understand now, I think. We had to run JKs a little stiffer in the past because the mold wouldn't cooperate and tended to produce sunken flight plates when we made them too soft. We believe we have solved that problem and will be able to produce substantially softer runs in the future. We did make one short run already, but it has not been stamped. Also, I am not sure it was done as soft as we can, but it was softer than we have been doing.

The hotstamp for newer JKs will have flight numbers. I don't know how much older stock we have that will be stamped with the newer stamp when they come up in the stamping rotation. All new JKs will have the new stamp. Also, the newly produced JKs will have different engraving on the bottom.

The ink on the bottom will still say JK, as will the stamp.
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will the r pro rhynos be stamped "r pro rhynos" or just have the flight numbers on it to identify them?
Thanks!

The R-Pro Rhynos will say R-Pro.
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Dave is there any chance of getting the JK's run again in the type of plastic that the 3X's JK's were run in? I got my hands on a 3X's JK and it's night and day when it comes to the softness and grip of the 3X's vs. the 5X's ones.

Yes.
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yes.
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awesome!! :):d:):d

Dave, do you now these Champ Valk/Monarch hybrids?
http://cgi.ebay.com/Champion-Valkyrie-Monarch-Hybrid-Disc-Golf-Japan-Open_W0QQitemZ330399568965QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_De faultDomain_0?hash=item4ced595445

Dave, do you now these Champ Valk/Monarch hybrids?
http://cgi.ebay.com/Champion-Valkyrie-Monarch-Hybrid-Disc-Golf-Japan-Open_W0QQitemZ330399568965QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_De faultDomain_0?hash=item4ced595445

This is an alternate mold for Monarchs. It allows us to get lower weights for the Asian players.

Originally Posted by Tim Red Beard
Dave is there any chance of getting the JK's run again in the type of plastic that the 3X's JK's were run in? I got my hands on a 3X's JK and it's night and day when it comes to the softness and grip of the 3X's vs. the 5X's ones.

Yes.
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Dave any chance of getting some other colors ran also? To be specific, orange JK Aviars.
Thanks again for all of the time you spend here answering our questions.

Originally Posted by Tim Red Beard
Dave is there any chance of getting the JK's run again in the type of plastic that the 3X's JK's were run in? I got my hands on a 3X's JK and it's night and day when it comes to the softness and grip of the 3X's vs. the 5X's ones.



Dave any chance of getting some other colors ran also? To be specific, orange JK Aviars.
Thanks again for all of the time you spend here answering our questions.

You can still get Orange JK's in the normal run, there are some on eBay that are a reasonable price, 11 bucks Buy It Now. I just got one last week.

However have the 3X's plastic run in different colors would be awesome!

The CD is basically a less over stable version of the PD.

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Dave, what was the motivation for the change in top for both the CD and PD from the 1st Runs?

Originally Posted by Tim Red Beard
Dave is there any chance of getting the JK's run again in the type of plastic that the 3X's JK's were run in? I got my hands on a 3X's JK and it's night and day when it comes to the softness and grip of the 3X's vs. the 5X's ones.



Dave any chance of getting some other colors ran also? To be specific, orange JK Aviars.
Thanks again for all of the time you spend here answering our questions.

Yes, the new runs will be in colors and softer.

Dave, what was the motivation for the change in top for both the CD and PD from the 1st Runs?

We wanted all the Discmania drivers to have a distinctive look.

We wanted all the Discmania drivers to have a distinctive look.

So the change with the top didn't have anything to do with flight characteristics?

So the change with the top didn't have anything to do with flight characteristics?


Correct.

Okay. I understand now, I think. We had to run JKs a little stiffer in the past because the mold wouldn't cooperate and tended to produce sunken flight plates when we made them too soft. We believe we have solved that problem and will be able to produce substantially softer runs in the future. We did make one short run already, but it has not been stamped. Also, I am not sure it was done as soft as we can, but it was softer than we have been doing.

The hotstamp for newer JKs will have flight numbers. I don't know how much older stock we have that will be stamped with the newer stamp when they come up in the stamping rotation. All new JKs will have the new stamp. Also, the newly produced JKs will have different engraving on the bottom.

The ink on the bottom will still say JK, as will the stamp.
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Awesome!. Thank you, thank you, thank you. Will be looking forward to these.

And more thank you's for the upcoming R-Pro JKs! Any chance of re-doing the amazing blue JKs from last years La Vie en Rose? I have a friend who played last year and made her write in her will to leave me hers...

Are there stabilitydifference between glow ch D and ch D
Can a 171-172 star xc replace a 175 pro D?

Yes, the new runs will be in colors and softer.

Dave you're a great wealth of information, any idea of when these will hit the market? Thanks again!

TRB

And more thank you's for the upcoming R-Pro JKs! Any chance of re-doing the amazing blue JKs from last years La Vie en Rose? I have a friend who played last year and made her write in her will to leave me hers...

We may still have some, however the heavies currently need to be hot stamped. Hopefully, that means rotating to the newer run.

Are there stabilitydifference between glow ch D and ch D
Can a 171-172 star xc replace a 175 pro D?

I can't tell you first hand whether there is a difference, but I have heard from several people who believe the glow Ch is more stable than the regular Ch.

I don't think a Star 172 XC is a substitute for 175 Pro Dest. The XC is more high speed stable.

Dave you're a great wealth of information, any idea of when these will hit the market? Thanks again!

TRB

Sorry, too hard to tell at this point. Heavies will be first, I believe.

I just recently purchased this old school dx teebird and was wondering if you could tell me a little bit about it. When it came out, it's rarity, etc...thanks!

That stamp was out 99-00. Not rare, but not easy to find. It was the first DX TB with a graffic and not the generic bar stamp.

This is an alternate mold for Monarchs. It allows us to get lower weights for the Asian players.

Do you know how many was made. Flight rating, is it the same as the regular Monarchs?

Do you know how many was made. Flight rating, is it the same as the regular Monarchs?

There were approximately 500 Ch. made. Same flight numbers. There were also a much lesser number of Star made.