Hey Dave,

I have a suggestion. You should develop a disc that feels like a Roc in hand that is also a large diameter mid, but is understable like a stingray.

If you think about people love throwing seasoned rocs, so why not market to those people with an out of the box flippy roc in DX and KC plastic.

What do you think?

An Ontario, or R-Pro Roc are both flippy out of the box....or will be after one tree.

Hey Dave,

I have a suggestion. You should develop a disc that feels like a Roc in hand that is also a large diameter mid, but is understable like a stingray.

If you think about people love throwing seasoned rocs, so why not market to those people with an out of the box flippy roc in DX and KC plastic.

What do you think?

What you are describing is a CE QMS, some of which are flippy and some stable. No longer available except on ebay sometimes or from collectors

Hey Dave,

I have a suggestion. You should develop a disc that feels like a Roc in hand that is also a large diameter mid, but is understable like a stingray.

If you think about people love throwing seasoned rocs, so why not market to those people with an out of the box flippy roc in DX and KC plastic.

What do you think?

Not a bad idea. However a flippy disc out of the box is likely to turn into a really flippy disc in a short time.

It seems that the best turning discs, especially Rocs, have been seasoned from an initial stable beginning. Sanding, tree tuning, etc. just doesn't seem to produce the same results.

On a related note, has the DX plastic become more durable the last few years? In the last year, I've lost my two well seasoned Rocs and the newer ones I've started throwing don't ding, scuff or scratch. I've had my best results from DX Rocs that wear in fairly quickly from brand new, but are very useful for a long time. The newer ones I've been throwing feel like they won't wear in with nice scuffs, blunted edge and sunken tops.



Not a bad idea. However a flippy disc out of the box is likely to turn into a really flippy disc in a short time.

It seems that the best turning discs, especially Rocs, have been seasoned from an initial stable beginning. Sanding, tree tuning, etc. just doesn't seem to produce the same results.

Dave,

Do you know how many Glow KC Rocs you guys just ran? Also are you planning on future runs of these for CFR?

Thanks

Dave,

Do you know how many Glow KC Rocs you guys just ran? Also are you planning on future runs of these for CFR?

Thanks

sorry, I don't know for sure. I think it was about 4,000. We will run these in the future if the response is good enough.

Hey Dave, how is the Archon performing and selling?

Hey Dave, how is the Archon performing and selling?

Selling very well. The Star is pretty easy to throw. Good speed and distance.
Not so good into a wind. The Champion is a little more stable and much better into a wind.

Can you provide any feedback on my question regarding the DX plastic becoming more durable the last few years? I've recently lost my two well worn Rocs and the newer ones I've started throwing don't beat up as much. I've had my best results from DX Rocs that wear in nicely from brand new, but are very useful for a long time. The newer ones I've been throwing feel like they won't wear in with nice scuffs, blunted edge and sunken tops.

Can you provide any feedback on my question regarding the DX plastic becoming more durable the last few years? I've recently lost my two well worn Rocs and the newer ones I've started throwing don't beat up as much. I've had my best results from DX Rocs that wear in nicely from brand new, but are very useful for a long time. The newer ones I've been throwing feel like they won't wear in with nice scuffs, blunted edge and sunken tops.

Sorry, I don't have and feedback. I wasn't aware the the latest DX was any different. I am glad it is more durable as it will last longer and once the discs do beat in, they should last longer.

Dave, perhaps this has been talked about before, but I am not very good at searching in the PDGA forums; I never can find what I am looking for. I had an early run Star Destroyer (had a stock stamp, and I got it soon after the first run discs were out) and I loved it very much! It wasn't too overstable like the newer runs are, for me. I lost it in a pond at a tourney last year and couldn't find it! I haven't tried First Run Star Destroyers because they are very expensive. I tried an Echo Star Destroyer and it is way too overstable for me. Would you have any suggestions on which run or runs might be less overstable? Thanks, Don

PS I have also tried the Vulcan (It is a useful disc, but too flippy for the disc I want to replace) and the Archon, which is also too overstable, but I am starting to like it more and more).

Try the pro or dx plastic. I like them.

Sorry, I don't have and feedback. I wasn't aware the the latest DX was any different. I am glad it is more durable as it will last longer and once the discs do beat in, they should last longer.

Hopefully, I have odd ones or transition run discs. IMO, the traditionally softer and faster-wearing dx, as compared with Pro, Star and Champion, has a big place in mine and I assume other players disc choices. The Rocs I'm looking at wear more like a KC and will never, based on my limited experience, take the same wear patterns that a DX will.

Thanks!

We do make both Champion and DX Rhynos and there is a chance we might do some glow in either or both.

Definitely possible if we think it will have sufficient appeal for cfr.

Glow Champ Rhyno's:

I'll buy 5. Innova has just the 1 glow putter. Need to get this done for us Rhyno lovers. More people I know throw Aviars, but I know more people that carry more than 4 Rhyno's than I do that carry more than 2 aviars.

Any word on these? Aviars just aren't comfortable in my hand. Maybe not enough interest for a production run (personally, I think they'd sell), but maybe they could be run as a TFR?

Any word on these? Aviars just aren't comfortable in my hand. Maybe not enough interest for a production run (personally, I think they'd sell), but maybe they could be run as a TFR?

Most likely, they would be run at some time for the Factory Store. Right now, Rhynos are not in the schedule till next year.

Dave, perhaps this has been talked about before, but I am not very good at searching in the PDGA forums; I never can find what I am looking for. I had an early run Star Destroyer (had a stock stamp, and I got it soon after the first run discs were out) and I loved it very much! It wasn't too overstable like the newer runs are, for me. I lost it in a pond at a tourney last year and couldn't find it! I haven't tried First Run Star Destroyers because they are very expensive. I tried an Echo Star Destroyer and it is way too overstable for me. Would you have any suggestions on which run or runs might be less overstable? Thanks, Don


Sorry, I missed this question previously. I like the same type Destroyer and it takes a while to beat in a new Star, but it is worth it. I recommend the new TeeDevil. It comes out of the box like a slightly worn Destroyer. For me, the Star TeeDevils are the ticket, however, I wouldn't forsake a well tuned Star Destroyer either if it were available.

Sorry, I missed this question previously. I like the same type Destroyer and it takes a while to beat in a new Star, but it is worth it. I recommend the new TeeDevil. It comes out of the box like a slightly worn Destroyer. For me, the Star TeeDevils are the ticket, however, I wouldn't forsake a well tuned Star Destroyer either if it were available.

Are you serious! Wow! That would be great! I have this bad habit of losing my favorite discs, so no worn Destroyers here! I have new ones, but I don't like them. Even one that I think is an early run is way too new for me! I will order a Star TeeDevil and give it a try. Thanks!

Dave,

I had a quick question about the star stingray. Did something with the mold change to make it more stable? The star stingray when compared to some of my older DX stingrays appears to have more plastic (read: appears thicker) where a bead might normally go on a disc.

Im just curious because the star stingray is really stable, where a similar shaped/profiled disc like the kite is really understable in star plastic.

Dave: I'm likin' my 170 star Archon. Very controllable. I like it a lot more than the 175 gram model, but that's just my average D arm talkin'. KL

Dave,

I had a quick question about the star stingray. Did something with the mold change to make it more stable? The star stingray when compared to some of my older DX stingrays appears to have more plastic (read: appears thicker) where a bead might normally go on a disc.

Im just curious because the star stingray is really stable, where a similar shaped/profiled disc like the kite is really understable in star plastic.

One part of the Stingray mold is new as that part wore out. It does make the bottom of the rim less sharp.

Hi Dave,

Why don't Valarie Jenkins and Des Reading have signature discs? They are both 3x World Champs. Several of your male players (deservedly) have signature discs with only one or two world championships under their belts. Surely you don't think Val and Des should be denied the honor because you are afraid their signature discs will be labeled "girl" discs and not sell as well. Come on, they deserve their own disc!

Hi Dave,

Why don't Valarie Jenkins and Des Reading have signature discs? They are both 3x World Champs. Several of your male players (deservedly) have signature discs with only one or two world championships under their belts. Surely you don't think Val and Des should be denied the honor because you are afraid their signature discs will be labeled "girl" discs and not sell as well. Come on, they deserve their own disc!

We have a lot of World Champions that may deserve signature discs. We have six players that have five or more World Titles, and others that also have three World Titles. None of these have had their own regular line signature disc. Harold Duvall has two Open World Championship titles and
he doesn't have a disc either. Open Worlds is weighted most heavily in our
consideration of marketability.

All do receive their own limited edition signature discs.

Where can I get a Val Jenkins Starfire and a Des Reading Stingray?

NVM. I found where:

http://www.valariejenkins.com/Site/Shop.html

http://www.yetidisc.com/pages.php?pageid=12

Except Des's Team Star disc is the boss? No thanks. I think I'll go for those wraiths though ;-)

Open Worlds is weighted most heavily in our
consideration of marketability.

I am confused by this statement. I thought Val and Des's wins were Open Worlds. Do you mean MEN'S Open Worlds?

I am confused by this statement. I thought Val and Des's wins were Open Worlds. Do you mean MEN'S Open Worlds?

Only one "Open Division" even if some tournaments like to list Open Masters or Open Women.

Open means anyone can play

Where can I get a Val Jenkins Starfire and a Des Reading Stingray?

Have them sign your disc.
Juliana signed my Valkyrie.

Have them sign your disc.
Juliana signed my Valkyrie.

Give them a buck or two as well since they aren't getting the help from disc sales the guys do.

Where can I get a Val Jenkins Starfire and a Des Reading Stingray?

NVM. I found where:

http://www.valariejenkins.com/Site/Shop.html

http://www.yetidisc.com/pages.php?pageid=12

Except Des's Team Star disc is the boss? No thanks. I think I'll go for those wraiths though ;-)

des also has/had roadrunners. next time you see her ask about them. jay usually has some with him as well.

Only one "Open Division" even if some tournaments like to list Open Masters or Open Women.

Open means anyone can play

Yeah, yeah, Matty, I got it. I was speaking more to the absurdity of it all. I know that the term "open" is often misused. That doesn't change the fact that two women who have shown dominance at an elite level deserve to be treated with the same respect as their male counterparts.

des also has/had roadrunners. next time you see her ask about them. jay usually has some with him as well.

Des also has Leopards. I have one hanging on my wall and it is a beauty.

Hey Dave, what's the story with Lycan? Is it something new or just a retooled, renamed Coyote?

According to the newly released flight chart, the Lycan is there and the Coyote is gone.

You likin' the Lycan? It'll grow on you liken lichen.

Hey Dave, what's the story with Lycan? Is it something new or just a retooled, renamed Coyote?

According to the newly released flight chart, the Lycan is there and the Coyote is gone.

That chart was being worked on and shouldn't have been released. We were talking about replacing the Coyote on the chart with the new Lycan, because the present chart doesn't have room for both. The Lycan is a new disc and the Coyote will still be available. We haven't decided yet how to deal with the flight charts. Right now, although this is subject to change. We are thinking about having the Coyote available in the Factory Store, and putting the Lycan on the chart. The Coyote is more similar to the Mako than the Lycan although the current flight numbers are the same for both the Coyote and Lycan. I would place the Lycan closer to the Shark than the Coyote.

Surely you don't think Val and Des should be denied the honor because you are afraid their signature discs will be labeled "girl" discs and not sell as well. Come on, they deserve their own disc!

They wont sell as well, as much as I hate to admit it. I lobbied as hard as anyone for Des for years, and still support it. But, that being said I cant tell you how many times I corrected people over JK Valks. Maybe its different in your area, I hope so and hope they get them.

Sounds to me like the Lycan should replace the wolf.

I have been playing disc golf for around 2 years now and just can't seem to find a great turnover disc for me. I have a very seasoned DX Beast that i use for my long turnover shots right now but the possibility of it rolling on every shot worries me.If anyone had any suggestions on disc that have a good turnover (RHBH) please let me know.
Thanks so much!

Hi Dave,

I was wondering how Innova produces flight patterns like the ones compiled in the following image:

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-v59ZlekE62s/TrrPyH6KXSI/AAAAAAAACRQ/qCQQRUuln5U/s1280/allflights.jpg

I figure that somebody compiled these based upon the patterns published in the Innova catalog. My question is more about the origin of the flight patterns, themselves. Here are some specific questions I have:
-What is the characteristic release speed for these flights?
-Are these flight patterns for flat release, hyzer/anhyzer, nose up/down?
-What is the spin rate at release supposed to be to produce this flight?
-What is the distance scale?
-Is this computed? Or an artistic rendering?
-Is the left-right and up-down to scale? Or is the vertical/horizontal skewed?

I'm very interested in your response. The answers to these questions will help me along in my research.

Cheers!
John

Hi Dave,

I was wondering how Innova produces flight patterns like the ones compiled in the following image:

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-v59ZlekE62s/TrrPyH6KXSI/AAAAAAAACRQ/qCQQRUuln5U/s1280/allflights.jpg

I figure that somebody compiled these based upon the patterns published in the Innova catalog. My question is more about the origin of the flight patterns, themselves. Here are some specific questions I have:
-What is the characteristic release speed for these flights?
-Are these flight patterns for flat release, hyzer/anhyzer, nose up/down?
-What is the spin rate at release supposed to be to produce this flight?
-What is the distance scale?
-Is this computed? Or an artistic rendering?
-Is the left-right and up-down to scale? Or is the vertical/horizontal skewed?

I'm very interested in your response. The answers to these questions will help me along in my research.

Cheers!
John
Hi John,
These flights are really not supposed to be compared across all speed ratings; only within speed ratings. Also, I noticed that several are wrong, and if they are ours, need to be changed. One notable was the Yeti shown more low speed overstable than the JK.

One thing is missing from these is the distance grid on the left of each speed category that tells how far the disc needs to fly to achieve these characteristics, thrown flat and nose level, with calm wind. Many people read these distances as how far the disc will fly, but it really represents how far you need to throw it.

As you infer, from your questions, throwing style can change the way the disc flies; especially nose up, nose down, or up wind, down wind.

I have been playing disc golf for around 2 years now and just can't seem to find a great turnover disc for me. I have a very seasoned DX Beast that i use for my long turnover shots right now but the possibility of it rolling on every shot worries me.If anyone had any suggestions on disc that have a good turnover (RHBH) please let me know.
Thanks so much!

Get yourself a Roadrunner,Leopard. Beat up a Valkyrie. Ask a friend for a old broken in Champ Beast or Valk.
If you want a faster disc look towards the Vulcan.

I have been playing disc golf for around 2 years now and just can't seem to find a great turnover disc for me. I have a very seasoned DX Beast that i use for my long turnover shots right now but the possibility of it rolling on every shot worries me.If anyone had any suggestions on disc that have a good turnover (RHBH) please let me know.
Thanks so much!

TD from Discmania. Super easy to throw, flies like a Roadrunner and finishes like a Sidewinder.

Hi John,
These flights are really not supposed to be compared across all speed ratings; only within speed ratings...One thing is missing from these is the distance grid on the left of each speed category that tells how far the disc needs to fly to achieve these characteristics, thrown flat and nose level, with calm wind. Many people read these distances as how far the disc will fly, but it really represents how far you need to throw it.

Right, I can see that the thrown speed of the drivers must be greater than that of the putters, and that different speed ratings could not be released at the same speed to achieve those flights. So, in drawing these flight patterns, Innova has in mind the distance range for which the disc in each category will yield its intended flight characteristics. If so, are the horizontal lines spaced 100 ft apart? This would give a good measure of distance.

Also, I noticed that several are wrong, and if they are ours, need to be changed. One notable was the Yeti shown more low speed overstable than the JK.

OK, so this particular chart isn't very reliable. Is there any chance that Innova could produce one that you would vouch for, in terms of accuracy? That would be pretty cool, and I think the many fans of Innova discs would be very interested in having something like that.

As you infer, from your questions, throwing style can change the way the disc flies; especially nose up, nose down, or up wind, down wind.

One other factor that can change the flight pattern is the rate of spin given to the disc by the thrower at release. By conservation of angular momentum, more spin=less turn/fade (less left-right movement). Do you have any particular value of spin in mind for the different speed categories?

Here is the reason for these questions: I am going to use some of these flight patterns to calculate the aerodynamic forces and torques acting on popular Innova molds. That is why I am keen to know how accurate you believe these patterns are, and how they were produced (sketched based on observations? computed using a model?).

The flight pattern by itself doesn't uniquely determine the magnitude of all these forces/torques, however, I can take a few of these molds to the field and calibrate release speed vs. distance, release spin rate vs. left-right movement, and duration of flight on flat level ground in calm wind conditions (using video frames to measure speed and spin). After doing that, I will be able to combine with the flight pattern and uniquely determine the aerodynamic forces on the disc. In the long-term, my plan is to build a library of aerodynamical properties of every disc mold ever produced. That can, in turn, be used to simulate the flight of each mold with different hyzer/anhyzer angles, different nose angles, thrown from different altitudes, various winds, different air density/altitude/temperature/humidity, tomahawk/thumber, etc.. And that can, in turn, be used for fun, which is what this is all about!

Right, I can see that the thrown speed of the drivers must be greater than that of the putters, and that different speed ratings could not be released at the same speed to achieve those flights. So, in drawing these flight patterns, Innova has in mind the distance range for which the disc in each category will yield its intended flight characteristics. If so, are the horizontal lines spaced 100 ft apart? This would give a good measure of distance.

Yes.

OK, so this particular chart isn't very reliable. Is there any chance that Innova could produce one that you would vouch for, in terms of accuracy? That would be pretty cool, and I think the many fans of Innova discs would be very interested in having something like that.

We have recently redone it to be more accurate and up to date.


One other factor that can change the flight pattern is the rate of spin given to the disc by the thrower at release. By conservation of angular momentum, more spin=less turn/fade (less left-right movement). Do you have any particular value of spin in mind for the different speed categories?

No. Spin rate usually follows initial velocity as if the disc were rolling out of the hand. Most of the time, extra spin means extra snap, which means extra acceleration, which means extra initial velocity. It's actually very difficult for most people to get extra spin without extra velocity.

We have recently redone it to be more accurate and up to date.

I just downloaded the latest from the Innova website. Thanks!

No. Spin rate usually follows initial velocity as if the disc were rolling out of the hand. Most of the time, extra spin means extra snap, which means extra acceleration, which means extra initial velocity. It's actually very difficult for most people to get extra spin without extra velocity.

I'm not suggesting that a person can easily manipulate spin. Rather, my observation is that two different throwers who throw the exact same disc the same exact distance do not usually have the same spin rate. This has also been documented by video. I've especially noticed this with some top pros, that even at a modest distance of 300', the disc still spins for a few seconds on the ground after gently landing, following a true flight. I think the better spin rates for top pros are over 10 Hz. When a lesser skilled player throws 300', the disc is usually spinning at a much slower rate (probably well under 10 Hz), hits the ground like a plane crash, and exhibits more left-right motion while in the air since the spin doesn't stabilize its turn/fade as much. This is probably due to differences in form, and the way the disc comes out of the hand (i.e., better form vs. worse form; whether or not one pivots the disc out of the rip, etc.).

Perhaps we need a device that "throws" discs and reports the findings.?
Like the Iron Byron machine that hits golf balls. This could be done by an independent entity. Then all discs would have to adhere to the same procedure for the ratings. It would be much easier on the player/consumer.

Perhaps we need a device that "throws" discs and reports the findings.?

A force balance and wind tunnel would achieve the same purpose, but costs a bit of money to set up. With data from one of those, you could calculate exactly how the disc would fly under any circumstances.

What is this Innova disc/lid? It is 100 grams, profile looks like a lid, but has the diameter of a golf disc.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-K34bwt9tNWM/TsiAfWSjLYI/AAAAAAAAABA/5W_4KCLAnPk/s144/innova%252520lid.jpg

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-a9x_4vA653Y/TsiHBy9te4I/AAAAAAAAABY/Nfd_EZsTK44/s144/innova%252520lid%252520profile.jpg?gl=US

What is this Innova disc/lid? It is 100 grams, profile looks like a lid, but has the diameter of a golf disc.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-K34bwt9tNWM/TsiAfWSjLYI/AAAAAAAAABA/5W_4KCLAnPk/s144/innova%252520lid.jpg

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-a9x_4vA653Y/TsiHBy9te4I/AAAAAAAAABY/Nfd_EZsTK44/s144/innova%252520lid%252520profile.jpg?gl=US

A Birdie, 1st mold.

After searching your suggestion, I found http://www.wrightlife.com/site/store/product-detail/200-eb25/collector_discs/disc_golf/. Lucky find for $2.50 at PIAS.

Dave,

Quick questions here....

What would the flight ratings on an Eagle-L be?

Also, will the Eagle-L ever be produced in regular production as the EL or is there a chance that the Innova Store will start doing a limted run of EL's?

I have Eagles in the X mold running out of my ears, but I only have 2 Eagle-Ls and I just hit an ace with one and want to retire it. I need some more backups!

Thanks Dave!

Dave,

Quick questions here....

What would the flight ratings on an Eagle-L be?

Also, will the Eagle-L ever be produced in regular production as the EL or is there a chance that the Innova Store will start doing a limted run of EL's?

I have Eagles in the X mold running out of my ears, but I only have 2 Eagle-Ls and I just hit an ace with one and want to retire it. I need some more backups!

Thanks Dave!
Flight number would be pretty much the same: 7/4/-1/2 The fade might be a little less.

We have no plans to run the EL , but we probably want to do some for the store.

Dave,

Is a Cro just a beadless Spider, or is it a different disc completely?

Hi Dave,
Thanks for this thread.
My question is about the rarity of a couple old Sharks I have in the rack.
They're "rubber" - super gummy - similar feel to the old Omega supersoft with the pliability of a "Blowfly".
Would these have been molded when the plastic blend was being changed?
Were they actually produced this way on purpose or are they oddities?
Thanks again - ah - #5923

Dave,

Is a Cro just a beadless Spider, or is it a different disc completely?

Basically.

Hi Dave,
Thanks for this thread.
My question is about the rarity of a couple old Sharks I have in the rack.
They're "rubber" - super gummy - similar feel to the old Omega supersoft with the pliability of a "Blowfly".
Would these have been molded when the plastic blend was being changed?
Were they actually produced this way on purpose or are they oddities?
Thanks again - ah - #5923

There were two runs of Rubber Sharks. The first run was about seven or so years ago. The latest run about two years ago we made because one of our East Coast employees was asking for them.

Most of the first run were a light brown or greenish tint. These also were gritty. They were made that way on purpose.

Basically.

Dave,

Is a Cro just a beadless Spider, or is it a different disc completely?

Then, if a bead makes a disc more stable, wouldnt the Spider be the more stable version of the Cro? Just trying to figure which one I should stick with

Thanks Dave

Future,

Your...
"Then, if a bead makes a disc more stable,"
...may confuse some people.

A bead will make a disc more OVER stable. Think of "stable" as "neutral" / straight-flying.

If you add a bead to an very under stable disc, yes, it would make that disc more "stable". But if you add a bead to an over stable disc, it would make the "new disc" LESS stable, i.e. more OVER stable (than the already over stable disc is).

And to make matter more confusing, you've picked on 2 discs that are rather close to each other AND right about on the slightly over stable / stable / slightly under stable line.

So don't worry about the terminology per se, just know that the Spider will hyzer out more than a Cro (at just about any speed thrown).

Karl

Then, if a bead makes a disc more stable, wouldnt the Spider be the more stable version of the Cro? Just trying to figure which one I should stick with

Thanks Dave

It's a long believed myth, (among others in disc golf) that a bead, per se, makes a disc more stable. Sharks and Rocs are a good example. Depending on material and molding, Sharks might be more stable to over stable than some Rocs. Same with Cro and Spider

... It's a long believed myth, (among others in disc golf) that a bead, per se, makes a disc more stable. ...

speaking of beads... i'm looking at buying a few eagles, for christmas gifts. there's the eagle and eagle x, which one is the older one with the bead? or were the beaded ones i used to have an accident?

speaking of beads... i'm looking at buying a few eagles, for christmas gifts. there's the eagle and eagle x, which one is the older one with the bead? or were the beaded ones i used to have an accident?

eagle x - bead, more stable

eagle x - bead, more stable

Eagle-X has a massively sloped edge reminiscent of a Viper, and I believe that is what makes it so over-stable, not any bead.

What is the Lycan ? a mid-range disc ?

What is the Lycan ? a mid-range disc ?

Hey Donny,
The Lycan is a mid range similar to a Coyote and Mako, but a touch more stable with a beefier rim.

Eagle-X has a massively sloped edge reminiscent of a Viper, and I believe that is what makes it so over-stable, not any bead.

Im not sure what kind of eagles you have, but I have several right here, L and X mold, none of which have this sloped edge. Only difference is a bead or no bead. Same thing with my firebirds (FL or FX), teebirds (T or TL)

Im not sure what kind of eagles you have, but I have several right here, L and X mold, none of which have this sloped edge. Only difference is a bead or no bead. Same thing with my firebirds (FL or FX), teebirds (T or TL)

The only discs we have with true beads are Rocs, Big Beads, Rhynos, Original Rocs and Hammers, Spiders and things like that. Anything else is not a true bead. Eagles, TeeBirds, Banshees and such do not have beads.

The only discs we have with true beads are Rocs, Big Beads, Rhynos, Original Rocs and Hammers, Spiders and things like that. Anything else is not a true bead. Eagles, TeeBirds, Banshees and such do not have beads.

I see, thanks Dave.

I see, thanks Dave.

Its common for people to call x molds "Hook and Beads" vs. L molds with the flat wing. Ive heard it for years.

I have a question for those of you who follow this thread. I wonder how much interest there might be for light weight Champion discs. By "light", I mean virtually any weight down to 100 gms or so. And, keep in mind, 140 gms is about the cutoff weight for floating in water. Discs below this will float. This might be any disc, but it really is aimed at the higher speed drivers that have only been available in higher weights.

So, the question is: If we could make these light weight Champion discs, would anyone be interested. Assume they feel and fly the same as heavier discs of the same type.

I would love it.

Dave,

Any plans to run KC Pro in any other colors ? Specifically Rocs and Aviars in some orange or blue instead of white.

Dave,

Any plans to run KC Pro in any other colors ? Specifically Rocs and Aviars in some orange or blue instead of white.

We do occasionally run KC Pro in other colors including black, orange, blue, and yellow.

I have a question for those of you who follow this thread. I wonder how much interest there might be for light weight Champion discs. By "light", I mean virtually any weight down to 100 gms or so. And, keep in mind, 140 gms is about the cutoff weight for floating in water. Discs below this will float. This might be any disc, but it really is aimed at the higher speed drivers that have only been available in higher weights.

So, the question is: If we could make these light weight Champion discs, would anyone be interested. Assume they feel and fly the same as heavier discs of the same type.

This sounds great, I would like to see more over-stable discs, such as the X-Cal, Tee Rex, Ape and other faster speed discs between 150-160 that fly the same as their heavy weight brothers.

I have a question for those of you who follow this thread. I wonder how much interest there might be for light weight Champion discs. By "light", I mean virtually any weight down to 100 gms or so. And, keep in mind, 140 gms is about the cutoff weight for floating in water. Discs below this will float. This might be any disc, but it really is aimed at the higher speed drivers that have only been available in higher weights.

So, the question is: If we could make these light weight Champion discs, would anyone be interested. Assume they feel and fly the same as heavier discs of the same type.

It'd be interesting, though I don't think I'd make it a regular habit to buy them.

The older I get, the lower I go in regard to disc weight.

What weight long range driver are you throwing Kenny?

I have a question for those of you who follow this thread. I wonder how much interest there might be for light weight Champion discs. By "light", I mean virtually any weight down to 100 gms or so. And, keep in mind, 140 gms is about the cutoff weight for floating in water. Discs below this will float. This might be any disc, but it really is aimed at the higher speed drivers that have only been available in higher weights.

So, the question is: If we could make these light weight Champion discs, would anyone be interested. Assume they feel and fly the same as heavier discs of the same type.

Dave,
I would buy all the same discs I currently use in a lighter weight. 150-160g

I have a question for those of you who follow this thread. I wonder how much interest there might be for light weight Champion discs. By "light", I mean virtually any weight down to 100 gms or so. And, keep in mind, 140 gms is about the cutoff weight for floating in water. Discs below this will float. This might be any disc, but it really is aimed at the higher speed drivers that have only been available in higher weights.

So, the question is: If we could make these light weight Champion discs, would anyone be interested. Assume they feel and fly the same as heavier discs of the same type.

you would have a big market in geographical area with higher altitudes for those kind of discs.
on the flip side, i found the same discs i throw here in utah which are lighter weight champion (160-165 gr) dont work at sea level, literally, unless with a tailwind. so if you make even lighter champion discs i imagine everyone living at altitudes higher than, say 3000 ft would love something like that. i know i would. and yes the older i get the lighter my plastic is getting.

I am getting my pro leopards out to 300, finally. The 170ish pro vulcan is the only high speed driver that I have found doesn't act severely overstable for me, and I can get it out to 350-375 pretty regularly. The premium plastic discs seem much too stable.

I'm building a glow bag, but I can't seem to find a glow leopard or glow vulcan in pro plastic. Does such a thing exist? Is there some reason they can't be made in pro plastic? Are there other glow discs you think I might try for these slots? Thanks.

I am getting my pro leopards out to 300, finally. The 170ish pro vulcan is the only high speed driver that I have found doesn't act severely overstable for me, and I can get it out to 350-375 pretty regularly. The premium plastic discs seem much too stable.

I'm building a glow bag, but I can't seem to find a glow leopard or glow vulcan in pro plastic. Does such a thing exist? Is there some reason they can't be made in pro plastic? Are there other glow discs you think I might try for these slots? Thanks.

We don't usually do glow in Pro as it doesn't work very well. You can try any regular DX glow. DX has the possible benefit for you of wearing in so that it won't be severely over stable in high speed drivers. Also, you might want to try lighter weights in high speed drivers.

So, the question is: If we could make these light weight Champion discs, would anyone be interested. Assume they feel and fly the same as heavier discs of the same type.

I can think of 8-10 people I regularly throw with that would be interested in lighter weight discs in a more durable plastic, myself included. Some just don't have the arm speed but don't want to be told to buy a Leopard instead of a Katana.

Dave I already throw discs in the low 60's and I can see down the road going lighter. I throw Valks and Wraiths as distance drivers.

Thanks for the awesome Xmas disc, I got a red glitter champ Leopard! Way cool!

Matt

I guess I could have asked the question a little differently. One thing I want to know is if people are interested or know of others who would be interested in light weight Champion long range drivers. The other question would be probably a little trickier as people might not have an idea of what weight is actually best for them until they try. But that question is: what weight do you think would work best for you?

The fact of the matter is that we are able, (with some difficultly), to make virtually any weight Boss, Destroyer, Katana, etc. in Champion down to about 110 gms. If we bother to go to the research time and expense, will disc golf respond to this new product or will they continue to follow the mantra of "heavier is better".

Personally, I have tried every weight there is in our long range drivers and find that I am getting better results with 150 gms than I was with 170 gms. As a side note: I had Bobby Musick try a 155 and 157 gm Boss at La Mirada last weekend and he was not only able to throw it immediately, but he threw it better than he threw his heavies. He was just as accurate, but longer.

So far, I can only see three disadvantages and at least four advantages. The disadvantages are: they don't penetrate leaves and other foliage as well, they don't forgive poor throwing (flutter) as well, they may not be as good in the wind, (although this has not been shown yet). So far, any wind disadvantage seems to be tied to flutter. And, also tied to flutter is that they don't work as well for side arms because it is too easy to flutter.

The advantages I see are: they are much easier to whip, they carry farther, they make my bag lighter when I have several, they do well with hitting trees as they don't seem to taco as much, they seem to have a little less low speed overstability. Subjectively, they are more fun and I don't seem to get as tired.

The main problem that I've had in the past is that 150s tend to get stuck in trees easier and they don't push through the foilage, like you stated above. Another problem I have with real light discs is that I tend to pull them, but I think it is just a timing issue.

The super stable Destroyers that you made for the Japan Open in the 158-160 range have become my go-to over stable distance driver. They don't flip for me. Great in the wind. Go a mile. Clearly you can do this, and I look forward to experimenting further with lighter drivers that retain predictable flight.

The demographics for lighter discs are the exploding Seniors and emerging Juniors.
In the years to come , those numbers will increase exponetially.

The demographics for lighter discs are the exploding Seniors and emerging Juniors.
In the years to come , those numbers will increase exponetially.

Word. This is the best post yet. Believe it Dave.

So clearly the new Blizzard Champion line with the Boss, Wraith, Katana and TeeDevil are the forerunners of this new technology? theory? not sure what to call it but I can't wait to try them!

So clearly the new Blizzard Champion line with the Boss, Wraith, Katana and TeeDevil are the forerunners of this new technology? theory? not sure what to call it but I can't wait to try them!

Yes, we have X-outs available in the Factory Store as a test market.

dave, would a monster be available in lightweight? thats just a meathook for me, but if you lighten it up......hmmmm!

dave, would a monster be available in lightweight? thats just a meathook for me, but if you lighten it up......hmmmm!

The Monster is not in the schedule yet. The most overstable disc in the schedule so far is the Ape. We will try that one January. After that, it just depends what comes up and how well the first ones are received.

I use star and champion fairway drivers in the 150's. The lightest hi speed discs I've found are Wraiths in the mid 160's and Boss @ 169-170. I would like to use drivers in the 150s at least and would be willing to try lower weights as well. I know several others who use lighter weight drivers (150s - 160s) and would like to see you try this.

Can I assume that it's whatever new blend of lightweight Champion type plastic that is making the flight characteristics of the new Blizzard Line similar to their heavy counterparts? Also, are what appear to be massive air bubbles in the flight plate of discs in the Factory store simply why these particular ones are x-outs or do the bubbles have something to do with "technology"?

Can I assume that it's whatever new blend of lightweight Champion type plastic that is making the flight characteristics of the new Blizzard Line similar to their heavy counterparts? Also, are what appear to be massive air bubbles in the flight plate of discs in the Factory store simply why these particular ones are x-outs or do the bubbles have something to do with "technology"?

It is very difficult to use this technology and get a good cosmetic appearance and feel. The X-Parts are those that don't make the cut. Not only are there a lot of X-Parts, there are a lot that don't even make that cut.

So is the "Blizzard" in the flight plate (if that's why it's called that) actual air bubbles or is that just the way this plastic sets up?

So is the "Blizzard" in the flight plate (if that's why it's called that) actual air bubbles or is that just the way this plastic sets up?

I don't know what the bubbles are made of and they are throughout the plastic including the rim. They sometimes don't show up as much in the rim.

Dave, I heard recently that Stancil Johnson was able to throw one of your more recent runs of ultralight R-Pro Boss (135 I think, with the firm rim) over 300 ft. So its great for older gentlemen.

Younger kids (age 8-12-ish) could also probably huck a lot further if the discs were lighter. And they would be rewarded with great flights by releasing the disc at just the right angles.

I would absolutely try lighter discs, because i already have. 137 R-Pro Boss is a very dangerous disc for passers by and scores for a 400'+ thrower even in calm weather. It so unforgiving and any headwind gusts will send those 100'+ off to the right. I had a gust happen to it at around 200' of flipped to flat and locked to flat flight. The disc wound up 100' to the right at 410' of distance.

Public safety and the image of disc golf would suffer from inevitable accidents if people with too much power for so fast and unpredictable discs would use the flip machines regularly. Of course nobody competent high powered player would, because finicky discs hurt the score as well.

If turn and fade characteristics of max weight brethren could be maintained the safety concerns and the need to baby the discs would go away for calm weather. In anecdotal evidence based on my throwing golf discs from 130 and up in gusty sea side courses all my 9 years of playing i am convinced that the current generation of discs in light weights does not fare well in gusty conditions. You can't predict gusts and it again becomes a safety and image issue along with scores.

I have had two Star Teebirds in 150 and save for the speed they started out similar to full weight ones in turn and fade. If i pulled power they flew as far and with similar lines to max weight ones in calm weather. In winds they get buffeted in every wind direction and flipped in heavy gusts from every direction except rear quarter. The glide is better in rear winds. There are many molds that behave the same in 150 vs max weight.

Wind molds should be different from calm weather discs no matter the weight. For safety, scores and predictability i would always throw heavy discs in the wind. I have no hesitation about throwing light discs in calm conditions. Bag will be lighter for it :-) I'm injured for life and approaching masters age so sparing health for the rest of the life playing disc golf is a concern and not needing to rip so hard for the same distance is a boon.

For scoring unchanged turn characteristics are absolutely vital. If you can pull that off the weight becomes an interesting issue. Courses would need to get longer to maintain similar pars and challenges and that may not be practical for the growth and athleticism (it's a word now, because you read it in the internet).

I don't think people can easily gauge, what the proper weight range for which disc is, because the turn and fade would be different from anything they've tried in traditional molds in light weights. I would assume 140 is still the absolute minimum for safety and athletic and acerage of courses concerns along with the safety of the public outside pay for play courses. I would not like the officials regulating light discs as lethal weapons needing to be confined to bunkers like shooting :-)

But that question is: what weight do you think would work best for you?

The fact of the matter is that we are able, (with some difficultly), to make virtually any weight Boss, Destroyer, Katana, etc. in Champion down to about 110 gms. If we bother to go to the research time and expense, will disc golf respond to this new product or will they continue to follow the mantra of "heavier is better".

Hi Dave,

At 53 and having torn my rotator 3 times in the past, I can't throw max weight discs very far any more. I am lucky to get 250 out of them. However, after picking up light plastic, 150 - 160 gm., like the R-Pro Boss, I can once again throw in the 350 range. I also have been throwing a 160 gm. Star Vulcan that has given me greater distance than the Boss. I only dream of what things would have been like had these discs been around when I was 25 and throwing Kitty Hawks and Super Puppies in the Oklahoma winds.

I would love to see and throw any other discs you guys can manufacture in the light weights like the Destroyer and Katana. Also, as far as the wind, I can throw the light Bosses and Vulcans into a stiff Oklahoma headwind (20 mph+) and have the same success controlling it as I do on a fairly calm day. You just have to throw it with a little more hyser out of the hand to compensate for the turn.

So, please do not hesitate to produce lower weights, even some of the young kids around here (SW OK) have started to try the light Bosses and Vulcans and like them.

Thanks for all you do.

OK,

We haven't tried the Vulcans yet, but I think it will happen fairly soon. Most of the Blizzard discs I have been testing of late are in the mid to upper 150s. These definitely fly like their heavier counter parts. The lighter 140s seem to be a little more mellow, as do the 130s. Might be something for just about every throwing level.

Guys with 400+ throwing range can easily adapt to the high 150s throwing Bosses or Destroyers.

Those with 350 to 400ft range will be able to throw low 150s to high 150s.

Those 300 to 350ft should probably use high 140s

Those under 300ft can use 130 to 140gms, which also float in water.

Sidearm throwers might not benefit at all unless they have a clean throw. These lighter discs don't forgive off axis torque, (flutter) as well as heavy discs.

Dave, what about durability, did you test it? Feels that a lot a air bubbles will make the discs less durable?

Dave, what about durability, did you test it? Feels that a lot a air bubbles will make the discs less durable?

The durability, so far, is very good. It may turn out not to have as much scuff resistance as regular Champion, but certainly has been standing up to tree hits and such. And it is way more durable than DX or Pro. These were the only two materials we were previously able to make light weight long range drivers in.

There are players throwing 150 discs already, that achieve over 400' already with current technology discs. And in some very low turn discs there is almost no other adjustment to make other than distance control. I was told that R-Pro Bosses are made with a different mold than Stars. I can control 160 R-Pro Bosses and the need for adjustment to a different mold Star Boss is large. If a durable 160 Blizzard Boss of the Star Boss flight behavior and no need to adjust was doable i'm sure i could control a 150 at least as much as a 160 R-Pro Boss. And i would try a 140 for hot rod duties, because it is good to have tail wind and uphill or over the trees options for long ranges or hyzered/anhyzered shots. Not to mention ultimate distance :-)

But there is always the chance of an errant shot or wind gust making life more difficult. That is why i'm not sure if it is a good idea for the safety and good of the sport to go too low in weights. There will always be someone trying to get an advantage throwing dangerous shots. So if a weapon is put in their hand and it gets away from them it won't be good for anyone. That is why i would like to see a manufacturer self imposed lower weight limit to not only lessen the chances of litigation and damages, but for the overall benefit to everyone, who plays.

I won't dictate any weight numbers, but am inclined to think that even a 140 disc will be dangerous in the hand of 400'+ throwers, who by now are getting more numerous. Give such a disc to a 370' crowd and a lot of people are throwing 400' and the 400' and over people are getting crazy distances at less control. So it is up to you to decide how much change is good for the sport and at which weight for given turn and wind handling for which throwing distance control over the flight is not reduced to dangerous levels.

With that said 159 Vulcan is already dangerous to 400'+ throwers as it is. It is fast and holds the turn forever, glides well and fades so late and little, that it goes a mile maximizing the glide staying close to flat longer than just about anything. No tolerance for error at all and very little gust handling or headwind toleration for 400' throwers.

A situation with three consecutive storms and a lot of fallen trees on a disc golf course rose up in Tali, Helsinki, Finland regarding how long a disc golf should be. The storms still rage and i haven't been to Tali, but the results from the first storm were bad already and you couldn't drive to the parking lot. At worst 250000 households were without electricity and some without water and no phones for three days and train lines cuts. Some of these problems are ongoing for several days in some areas. The damages of the first storm equal the damages for a normal year.

With that background it is nice, that the local club may get some help in at least clearing the fallen trees eventually maybe. Think of a small club in the sticks and possibly without outside help with carnage from real storms like hurricanes. How is a small group of people gonna be able to maintain and rebuild a course after wreckage, if people get used to having most holes being 450'+ for a drive and a putt and some being two 450' shots and a putt for a birdie?

How long are those rounds gonna last and 36 holes in a day is out for many because say 12000'+ courses take so long to play. And how many people per day can such a course entertain vs one that has a higher throughput? It may not be viable for the sport to offer megacomplexes everywhere and make the players expect it everywhere with their forever sailing discs.

How long is it sane to make longer and longer discs? For earning money giving people what they want in longer discs is profitable in the short term, but are you gonna hurt the future of the sport and cut future growth or even sales in worst case scenario? That isn't likely but something to keep in mind.

A situation with three consecutive storms and a lot of fallen trees on a disc golf course rose up in Tali, Helsinki, Finland regarding how long a disc golf should be. The storms still rage and i haven't been to Tali, but the results from the first storm were bad already and you couldn't drive to the parking lot. At worst 250000 households were without electricity and some without water and no phones for three days and train lines cuts. Some of these problems are ongoing for several days in some areas. The damages of the first storm equal the damages for a normal year.

With that background it is nice, that the local club may get some help in at least clearing the fallen trees eventually maybe. Think of a small club in the sticks and possibly without outside help with carnage from real storms like hurricanes. How is a small group of people gonna be able to maintain and rebuild a course after wreckage, if people get used to having most holes being 450'+ for a drive and a putt and some being two 450' shots and a putt for a birdie?

How long are those rounds gonna last and 36 holes in a day is out for many because say 12000'+ courses take so long to play. And how many people per day can such a course entertain vs one that has a higher throughput? It may not be viable for the sport to offer megacomplexes everywhere and make the players expect it everywhere with their forever sailing discs.

How long is it sane to make longer and longer discs? For earning money giving people what they want in longer discs is profitable in the short term, but are you gonna hurt the future of the sport and cut future growth or even sales in worst case scenario? That isn't likely but something to keep in mind.

You know, I heard exactly the same thing in 1983. However, just to be clear, it has nothing to do with money. It has everything to do with disc golf taking over the world. There are very few sports that engage so many different kinds of people. Not all courses are long. Some are short. Some are woody. Some are open. Some are flat. Some are mountainous. Some are rough. Some are grassy and hilly like my home course La Mirada. Some people like stable discs. Some people like unstable finesse discs.

Some people are going to throw wild regardless of whether they throw a heavy or a light disc. A wildly thrown light disc will do less damage than a wildly thrown heavy disc. Just play catch with the two and you will see the difference. These light fast discs don't go very far for the distance disenfranchised, but they do tend to bring a smile to their faces. I wouldn't worry about the 400ft throwers, they don't need any help anyway.

Don't worry. Disc golf is too great a sport to fail. Yes, there are irresponsible people, who will do irresponsible things, but the rest of us should not let those few ruin it for the world. Or you.

I have a question for those of you who follow this thread. I wonder how much interest there might be for light weight Champion discs. By "light", I mean virtually any weight down to 100 gms or so. And, keep in mind, 140 gms is about the cutoff weight for floating in water. Discs below this will float. This might be any disc, but it really is aimed at the higher speed drivers that have only been available in higher weights.

So, the question is: If we could make these light weight Champion discs, would anyone be interested. Assume they feel and fly the same as heavier discs of the same type.Dave, my daughter Kelsey has been throwing the few stable 150 Champion drivers that you make for years, mainly the T-Bird and sometimes the Firebird. She has a stash of them somewhere. She's throwing T-Birds 330 feet these days on open holes with good tees, and sometimes longer. She would REALLY like to test throw any 150ish Champion wide wing drivers you might be making a little bit above, at or below the stability of a 150 Champ T-Bird. I think she could learn to throw a 150 Champion wide wing driver 400 feet. She would probably buy 50 of anything she really liked from Innova East on my account [with her money].

She'll be playing MA1 at Worlds this summer. She's 928 rated right now, 14th on the World Ranking chart and mostly playing MA2.

Hey Dave,

Can you make the Zephyr in a champion material? I love to play catch at the beach with them, but if it hits a rock or cliff, the stability just goes so quick. It would be nice to have a champion one!

Dave, can we expect Champion Vulcans anytime soon?

Hey Dave,

Can you make the Zephyr in a champion material? I love to play catch at the beach with them, but if it hits a rock or cliff, the stability just goes so quick. It would be nice to have a champion one!

We just made some that will be available at the Innova Pro Shop

Dave, can we expect Champion Vulcans anytime soon?

Probably soon. They will be put in the regular line up.

any info on the dominator and mamba dave?
flight number expectations?

Cool Dave! I just checked the site, couldn't find them, any idea when they will show up?

any info on the dominator and mamba dave?
flight number expectations?


We've been testing the Mamba and Dominator as well as new versions of the Champion Flattop Stingrays and Cobras for the past three weeks or so.

The Mamba was designed to give maximum distance for minimal effort. I believe the numbers are 11,5,-5,1. The Mamba has more high speed turn than any other of our long range drivers, so it is not meant to be thrown into a headwind. For those without much driving speed, it will be a blessing. It will add distance. For the medium armed crowd, it will shape long lines for turnovers and straight ahead shots, as well as big rolls. For those with big arms...not for them unless they want a real long fast turning roller. The Mamba will be released first in Champion around the end of February.

The Dominator occupies the same basic slot as the Groove, but no groove. It is somewhat faster than the Groove, (or Boss or Ape for that matter). Similar speed as the Vulcan or Katana, but more high speed stability than either. The Dominator will be released first in Champion in weights from 175gms down to 130s in Blizzard Champion. We have not established a release date yet for the Dominator. Probably some time in Spring.

thx for the reply dave. so are either of these new discs going to have the vulcan type top or is it a new one? new wings? what wings are being used?

also,any scheduled discs that would be in the fairway driver category? nnew mids or any new putters in the works? there have been lots of high speed stuff aside from the lycan

thx for the reply dave. so are either of these new discs going to have the vulcan type top or is it a new one? new wings? what wings are being used?

also,any scheduled discs that would be in the fairway driver category? nnew mids or any new putters in the works? there have been lots of high speed stuff aside from the lycan

Neither driver will have a Vulcan type top. Wings?

TL+ was just made a few months ago. No new putters. The Yeti is the newest.

The new Champion Stingray and Cobras fly as if they were new. The Cobra flies like a long Roc and the Stingray flies like a shorter Leopard. These are from the Flat top Ontario mold, but really don't fly like their DX brothers. I can't turn the Cobra over at all, and the Stingray is pretty darn straight, rather than a turning machine like the original or DX.

As far as actual fairway drivers; the FD Jackal we made for Discmania is like a cross between a Leopard and TeeBird. It will come out in March, I believe.

Hi Dave,

I'm curious about the process of making the Blizzard discs. I imagine that in the ordinary process of making solid discs, one would usually would press out any air bubbles that result from melting the input plastic pellets, before injection into the mold, and that most injection molding machines probably have a mechanism for pressing out unwanted air. In the Blizzard case, you guys manage to get air into the injected plastic, but it is distributed in small bubbles, and you also seem to have some sort of control on bubble sizes (the blems show a range of variability and experimentation). Getting a frothy mixture of air and molten plastic with uniform small bubbles is probably very difficult to do just by mixing air and plastic pellets together (like one might do in a pot). I'm going to make a wild guess that maybe the bubbles are created by some sort of additive in the plastic itself that generates gases during injection (perhaps triggered by the decompression that occurs once the plastic enters the mold and undergoes radial expansion?). For example, you could produce the plastic in a high pressure CO2 chamber, and the gases would be dissolved into the plastic itself prior to injection molding. This would produce a more uniform bubble distribution when the bubbles are exsolving internally from the plastic itself. The degree to which the bubbles are stretched (elliptical vs. spherical) is then an indication of how far the bubbles were transported under deformation (stretching) in the injected plastic from the point where they initially exsolved (they should always begin spherical) and/or past the critical point where the plastic rheology is soft enough to relax deformed shapes back to spherical (owing to surface tension). In any case, the excess pressure of the bubbles seems to be an easy way to explain the bubble dome shape of the flight plate...it makes the flight plate try to expand outward, but since it is confined by the relatively rigid rim, it bows upward instead.

Anyways, is there any chance you could enlighten us about this process? It is very cool to behold, and a very fun new technology developed by Innova. Or perhaps it is your trade secret, that you do not wish to reveal. Can't hurt to ask.

I've picked up a 140g Wraith and 150g Katana (with the cool Hero Discs stamps), and both fly very nicely. I had some fantastic downwind hyzer flip throws with the Katana, while a bubble-topped Wraith flies high speed stable with a tight fade. The biggest advantage I've seen from throwing these discs is:
1) Great distance with less power, although good form is still required.
2) Much easier to throw over high objects/up steep grades.
3) Less tired after throwing these all day.

Hi Dave,

I'm curious about the process of making the Blizzard discs. I imagine that in the ordinary process of making solid discs, one would usually would press out any air bubbles that result from melting the input plastic pellets, before injection into the mold, and that most injection molding machines probably have a mechanism for pressing out unwanted air. In the Blizzard case, you guys manage to get air into the injected plastic, but it is distributed in small bubbles, and you also seem to have some sort of control on bubble sizes (the blems show a range of variability and experimentation). Getting a frothy mixture of air and molten plastic with uniform small bubbles is probably very difficult to do just by mixing air and plastic pellets together (like one might do in a pot). I'm going to make a wild guess that maybe the bubbles are created by some sort of additive in the plastic itself that generates gases during injection (perhaps triggered by the decompression that occurs once the plastic enters the mold and undergoes radial expansion?). For example, you could produce the plastic in a high pressure CO2 chamber, and the gases would be dissolved into the plastic itself prior to injection molding. This would produce a more uniform bubble distribution when the bubbles are exsolving internally from the plastic itself. The degree to which the bubbles are stretched (elliptical vs. spherical) is then an indication of how far the bubbles were transported under deformation (stretching) in the injected plastic from the point where they initially exsolved (they should always begin spherical) and/or past the critical point where the plastic rheology is soft enough to relax deformed shapes back to spherical (owing to surface tension). In any case, the excess pressure of the bubbles seems to be an easy way to explain the bubble dome shape of the flight plate...it makes the flight plate try to expand outward, but since it is confined by the relatively rigid rim, it bows upward instead.

Anyways, is there any chance you could enlighten us about this process? It is very cool to behold, and a very fun new technology developed by Innova. Or perhaps it is your trade secret, that you do not wish to reveal. Can't hurt to ask.

I've picked up a 140g Wraith and 150g Katana (with the cool Hero Discs stamps), and both fly very nicely. I had some fantastic downwind hyzer flip throws with the Katana, while a bubble-topped Wraith flies high speed stable with a tight fade. The biggest advantage I've seen from throwing these discs is:
1) Great distance with less power, although good form is still required.
2) Much easier to throw over high objects/up steep grades.
3) Less tired after throwing these all day.

you are correct about several things, especially about the experimentation and difficulty. Fortunately, my son is a little smarter than I am and can hold more variables in his head than I can. He is largely responsible for the evolution of the technique. The molding has evolved into, what I think is an acceptable and marketable product that does not have bubbles in the flight plate, just the rim. We started with bubbles everywhere, but that often produced unacceptable visual results. I've heard lots of speculation about what the bubbles do dynamically to the flight. Interesting at times. The ultimate shape is not due to the bubbles, but other factors that occur with trying to control them. Early on in the evolution of Champion plastic we had unwanted bubbles and fought to get rid of them. Now, we are embracing and controlling the pattern. I think it's very cool and am very proud of my son, who is the architect of the technique.

you are correct about several things, especially about the experimentation and difficulty. Fortunately, my son is a little smarter than I am and can hold more variables in his head than I can. He is largely responsible for the evolution of the technique. The molding has evolved into, what I think is an acceptable and marketable product that does not have bubbles in the flight plate, just the rim. We started with bubbles everywhere, but that often produced unacceptable visual results. I've heard lots of speculation about what the bubbles do dynamically to the flight. Interesting at times. The ultimate shape is not due to the bubbles, but other factors that occur with trying to control them. Early on in the evolution of Champion plastic we had unwanted bubbles and fought to get rid of them. Now, we are embracing and controlling the pattern. I think it's very cool and am very proud of my son, who is the architect of the technique.

now if the bubbles were filled with helium..... i'd get an extra 20 feet :)

Whom do I have to bribe to get some glow panthers?

Dave did I hear you say flat top Champion Stingrays?? When can we get our hands on them?

Dave did I hear you say flat top Champion Stingrays?? When can we get our hands on them?

Final Nine will be selling them as a fundraiser for the St Patricks. Probably starting next week.

Thanks for the responses Dave, it is great to engage in this kind of dialogue.

...Fortunately, my son is a little smarter than I am and can hold more variables in his head than I can. He is largely responsible for the evolution of the technique...Early on in the evolution of Champion plastic we had unwanted bubbles and fought to get rid of them. Now, we are embracing and controlling the pattern...I think it's very cool and am very proud of my son, who is the architect of the technique.

Great story...and nice to see that Innova will be in good hands well into the future!

...does not have bubbles in the flight plate, just the rim...I've heard lots of speculation about what the bubbles do dynamically to the flight...

This is pretty standard physics, in terms of how the disc's mass distribution will affect turn/fade. The moment of inertia of a uniformly flat disc (e.g., hockey puck) is:
m*r^2/4,
where (m=mass, r=radius). The moment of inertia of a ring (e.g., Aerobie ring) is:
m*r^2/2,
i.e., twice that of a uniform flat disc. The moment of inertia of an Innova disc is the sum of the flight plate (flat disc-like) and rim (ring-like):
m_fp*r_fp^2/4+m_rim*r_rim^2/2,
where _fp=flight plate and _rim=rim (more precisely, r_rim is the mass-weighted radius of the rim). If the mold is the same, then r_fp and r_rim do not change with addition of bubbles, but m_fp and m_rim do change. Changing the mass of the flight plate (by altering the bubble density) therefore has half the sensitivity upon the total moment of inertia of the disc than does changing the bubble density in the rim.

Translation back to ordinary English: For a disc with the exact same shape, adding bubbles to the rim will make the disc turn/fade more than adding bubbles also to the flight plate. I predict that this is only a weak effect, and that subtle changes in shape will probably be the more important factor owing to the strong non-linearity of aerodynamic flows and forces.

Hey Dave, I came across a 2010 Japan Open pre release test material Katana. Just wondering how many of these were run with this stamp and this plastic. And how much these beautys go for. Thanks.......................

http://i1132.photobucket.com/albums/m561/yrnmbrsup/DSC00056.jpg

You'd have to check with Hero Discs for that information. Sorry.

what are your plans in regards to the gator mids and there plstic types star is to much and my mother ruins dx lol j/k maybe a pro or champ

champ gators would be nice.
also- i think you guys should make a 180 gram diameter disc that is faster than a roc, with a wider rim. like a stable leopard-roc combo.
my 2 cents

what are your plans in regards to the gator mids and there plstic types star is to much and my mother ruins dx lol j/k maybe a pro or champ

Regular Pro is unlikely. Champion is a possibility. Erik takes requests at the Factory Store. If he gets enough, it could happen.

Right on thank you Dave

champ gators would be nice.
also- i think you guys should make a 180 gram diameter disc that is faster than a roc, with a wider rim. like a stable leopard-roc combo.
my 2 cents

Like a Scorpion?

Dave so i went out and got a new gator today ad it is domeyer than my last not complaining just wondering why, both dx, rim also felt a little diff. Just curious, both max weights also

Dave so i went out and got a new gator today ad it is domeyer than my last not complaining just wondering why, both dx, rim also felt a little diff. Just curious, both max weights also

Could be an older run versus a newer run. Newer Gators have blunter noses and are more over stable. Could just be plastic variations.

Just picked up a Boss, Wraith, and Katana in blizzard material. Can't wait to give them some test flights this afternoon after work.

Dave, which of the Innova distance drivers have the smallest rim? I'm talking about the size of the rim measured from the outside of the disc toward the center, not the height from top to bottom. I would like to get more distance, but the big rims just don't fit my small hands. Right now I throw Eagles and Teebirds.

Dave, which of the Innova distance drivers have the smallest rim? I'm talking about the size of the rim measured from the outside of the disc toward the center, not the height from top to bottom. I would like to get more distance, but the big rims just don't fit my small hands. Right now I throw Eagles and Teebirds.

Viking, Valkyrie, Sidewinder, and Roadrunner have the smallest rims of the distance driver catagory. The next step up would be Starfire, Orc, Beast

Dave,

Any chance the pig will be made in the original plastic again (jk pro type)?

Thanks

Dave,

Any chance the pig will be made in the original plastic again (jk pro type)?

Thanks

Yes.

Just picked up a Boss, Wraith, and Katana in blizzard material. Can't wait to give them some test flights this afternoon after work.

your gonna like the boss. i just played some rounds with one and stability is excellent. extra 20-40 feet in distance, as long as its not into a strong headwind. like to hear your take on it...

your gonna like the boss. i just played some rounds with one and stability is excellent. extra 20-40 feet in distance, as long as its not into a strong headwind. like to hear your take on it...

Blizzard Plastique Critique:

The Boss: Ya, it's 155 grams, but it's definitely Boss quality. Has all of the charactaristics of a heavy Boss, only easier to throw. I just haven't used it that much yet.

The Wraith: 150 grammer throws exactly like it's heavier version.

The Katana: 150 grams of heaven. I can crush this thing. I can turn it over with ease and accuracy and I can bomb it with a lot of hyzer. Love it, Dave!

The end skip is a little different from the heavy counterparts. When these light discs hit the ground, they skid and slither before coming to a halt.

These new discs are impressive and will help in the longevity of my arm/shoulder.

Thanks Kenny.

Hey,
When did they start putting the www.innovadiscs.com tooling on the disc? I'm trying to figure out the age of a disc, Beadless Aviar to be specific.

Thanks

Hey,
When did they start putting the www.innovadiscs.com tooling on the disc? I'm trying to figure out the age of a disc, Beadless Aviar to be specific.

Thanks

That was relatively recently. Older Aviars were labeled San Marino. Two sizes of font, small size first.

Thanks that's what I was thinking. Good thing the seller takes returns :/...

Hey Dave,

Are the new, what are being billed as Champion "King" Cobras any different than the new run of Champion Cobras that the Factory store released a few months ago? If so, how?

Thanks

Mike

Will the blizzards be legal to use I'n all Pdga sanctioned events or will they start having there own class of tourney play just need to know as far as whether or not I will run into these and not have or need to have that kind of advantage

Hey Dave,

Are the new, what are being billed as Champion "King" Cobras any different than the new run of Champion Cobras that the Factory store released a few months ago? If so, how?

Thanks

Mike

I think they might be. I am not familiar with the flight of the original run, but the stock run is very beefy in terms of stability. It is more like a faster Roc than a Cobra. The same is the Case for the Super Stingray. The Super Stingray is a fairly straight flier rather than a turning machine. The rim is a little beefier on both too.

Will the blizzards be legal to use I'n all Pdga sanctioned events or will they start having there own class of tourney play just need to know as far as whether or not I will run into these and not have or need to have that kind of advantage

Blizzard weight discs are legal in any PDGA tourney. It's only max weight that might not be legal in lower weight class tourneys like 150 class or Japan Open class.

to be honest wont the blizzard weighted discs take some of the fun and challenge of an event then. im not talking them down please dont assume that just trying to understand them a little better. i mean here u have the guys who have mastered the long flights of these discs over the course of time and perserverance, then i step up to the pad my first day and get the same d as them with a blizzard. eqality? and again im just trying to get the just on these is all. personally i am taking it as technology at its finest.

to be honest wont the blizzard weighted discs take some of the fun and challenge of an event then. im not talking them down please dont assume that just trying to understand them a little better. i mean here u have the guys who have mastered the long flights of these discs over the course of time and perserverance, then i step up to the pad my first day and get the same d as them with a blizzard. eqality? and again im just trying to get the just on these is all. personally i am taking it as technology at its finest.




I think this same idea is brought up in the eveloution of any sport. Look at all the advancements in sports equipment these days. Just a quick progression in ball golf. Wood drivers to metal drivers, regular head to oversized, aluminum shafts to graphite shafts.

Thank u sox fan for the understanding perfect analogy definentally made me look at it another way thank god for disc golf community lol. And again thank u dave for your intellectual thinking into disc golf press on fellow throwers hahaha

to be honest wont the blizzard weighted discs take some of the fun and challenge of an event then. im not talking them down please dont assume that just trying to understand them a little better. i mean here u have the guys who have mastered the long flights of these discs over the course of time and perserverance, then i step up to the pad my first day and get the same d as them with a blizzard. eqality? and again im just trying to get the just on these is all. personally i am taking it as technology at its finest.

Everyone, including the masters of the long throws can get more distance. The challenge of accuracy still remains.

I think the Blizzard technology is very similar to the original Eagle/Aero technology. Many people, at the time, were either uncertain or downright certain that it would ruin disc golf. While I can't deny that it changed disc golf somewhat, I believed then and now that the distance enhancing technology was and still is essential to the growth and enjoyment of disc golf.

While many shorter courses were made irrelevant to the minority of players who had the power to conquer them, many other players were empowered to drive and make birdies for the first time. I think that is important. It broadens the fun factor for a broader range of players. It also broadens the disc golf constituency/political power necessary to sway city and county planners. I think this is very important.

Yes, it made course installation in smaller areas more of a challenge, but it also provided some impetus for longer and more spectacular courses. There was much fear that we would not be able to secure venues for these larger courses. That did not prove to be the case then, nor do I believe that now.

Spectacular, is a word to remember, I think. Only when we have spectacular courses and spectacular throws on those courses, will we have much outside sponsor interest. Spectacular brings spectators. Spectators brings sponsor interest. At least that is how I see it.

words of wisdom from a wise man. thank u then and thank u now dave

So far, I can only see three disadvantages and at least four advantages. The disadvantages are: they don't penetrate leaves and other foliage as well, they don't forgive poor throwing (flutter) as well, they may not be as good in the wind, (although this has not been shown yet). So far, any wind disadvantage seems to be tied to flutter. And, also tied to flutter is that they don't work as well for side arms because it is too easy to flutter.

The advantages I see are: they are much easier to whip, they carry farther, they make my bag lighter when I have several, they do well with hitting trees as they don't seem to taco as much, they seem to have a little less low speed overstability. Subjectively, they are more fun and I don't seem to get as tired.
__________________

I posted the above a couple of months ago, but think it needs a little explanation.
Disadvantages:
1. They don't penetrate leaves and other foliage as well.
This is from empirical testing, but is almost certainly due to the lighter kinetic energy and has been known for a long time with other light weight discs compared to heavy over 30 yrs. This also means they will do less damage as opposed to the speculated more damage with higher launch speeds. While initial launch speeds may be higher, they do slow down more rapidly also.

1a. Will stick in trees more easily. Simply due to more weight.

2. They don't forgive poor throwing (flutter aka off axis torque). This again is simply due to less weight and not, to any great extent, the bubble distribution. All lighter discs have less torque resistance.

3. Wind disadvantage is the same for Blizzard as it is for any other light discs. This is somewhat offset for some Blizzard models that are very stable in light weights.

4. Control and reliability. This is due to the confluence of small throwing errors and wind influence. Each is magnified somewhat as there is less mass and centrifugal dampening.

Advantages:

1. Easier to whip. Again simply due to the lighter weight and not the bubbles.

2. Carry further. Same reason. Less mass equals more glide time.

3. Less course damage. Two reasons, I believe, are less mass and a slightly softer spongy rim.

4. Less tacoing of the discs. Subjective at this point, but may become fact.

5. More fun. Subjective

6. Lighter bag when using all blizzard drivers, which I do.

7. Less arm tiredness after throwing two rounds of multiple drives.

8. Less stress on my muscles especially noted on sidearms. (although sidearm throws take more care to avoid flutter)

9. More distance, more easily. For golf this is due mainly to increased glide. For distance throwing this is due to higher initial launch speed to get up to cruising altitude, followed by longer glide time.

The main advantage of the Blizzard discs, as opposed to any other lightweight discs, at this point, is durability.

Dave, saw some King Cobras on ebay:
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=king+cobra&_sacat=20851&_sop=10&_odkw=&_osacat=20851&_trksid=p3286.c0.m270.l1313
What is the difference between these and the "regular" Cobras?

Dave, saw some King Cobras on ebay:
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=king+cobra&_sacat=20851&_sop=10&_odkw=&_osacat=20851&_trksid=p3286.c0.m270.l1313
What is the difference between these and the "regular" Cobras?

The regular Cobras are made from the San Marion mold which is domier and has more turn and a slightly smaller rim.

The King Cobra is made from the Ontario flat top mold. When made in Champion plastic it has a low profile Roc look and flies like a Roc.

Hi Dave, and congrats on the blizzard plastic. Sorry if this is covered upthread, but I have a lot of catching up to do here... I have yet to see a Blizzard in person, how is the grippiness? Is it possible to blizzard-ize both Star and Champion?

thanks again for creating the Destroyer -- was that really 5 years ago?

Hi Dave, and congrats on the blizzard plastic. Sorry if this is covered upthread, but I have a lot of catching up to do here... I have yet to see a Blizzard in person, how is the grippiness? Is it possible to blizzard-ize both Star and Champion?

thanks again for creating the Destroyer -- was that really 5 years ago?

Hi Rob,
The grippiness is about the same as regular Champion. It is possible to blizzardize both Star and Champion. As a matter of fact, we did a similar process two years ago with Starlite. At that time, and with that process we got limited results. That process only reduced the weight by 3 or 4 grams and tended to make the discs much more over stable. We didn't feel this would be appropriate for general production. The new Blizzard discs tend to fly the same as their heavier counterparts, especially in the mid to high fifties. The lower weight are a little less stable.

Ps. Nice to hear from you. We finally filled that position we offered you a few years ago. I hope you're doing well.

Dave is the TeeDevil's relation to the Destroyer the same as the TL's relation to the TeeBird? If so I will have to get some...

I regret I had not the resources to move out there and take that position -- thanks for offering me it. If you ever have a job I can do from here at home, don't hesitate to let me know :)... For example if you want to write a book about your life, and you feel like you need one -- I can be your ghost writer :rolleyes:

Dave is the TeeDevil's relation to the Destroyer the same as the TL's relation to the TeeBird? If so I will have to get some...

I regret I had not the resources to move out there and take that position -- thanks for offering me it. If you ever have a job I can do from here at home, don't hesitate to let me know :)... For example if you want to write a book about your life, and you feel like you need one -- I can be your ghost writer :rolleyes:

No, the TeeDevil is not the same analogy other than the less high speed stable part. It has just as much low speed over-stability.

to be honest wont the blizzard weighted discs take some of the fun and challenge of an event then. im not talking them down please dont assume that just trying to understand them a little better. i mean here u have the guys who have mastered the long flights of these discs over the course of time and perserverance, then i step up to the pad my first day and get the same d as them with a blizzard. eqality? and again im just trying to get the just on these is all. personally i am taking it as technology at its finest.

Play in North Carolina and see how much advantage blizzard discs give you.

Play in North Carolina and see how much advantage blizzard discs give you.

Constructive

Dave,

I know self caught flight discs are not in high demand, but wouldn't the Blizzard technology be superb for an MTA disc? I still am trying to get a Pebble, how about a Blizzard version? Lynx? Condor? Or would the Blizzard technology make other molds MTA friendly? Maybe that 198X world record can finally fall? :) what are your thoughts on this?

Dave,

I know self caught flight discs are not in high demand, but wouldn't the Blizzard technology be superb for an MTA disc? I still am trying to get a Pebble, how about a Blizzard version? Lynx? Condor? Or would the Blizzard technology make other molds MTA friendly? Maybe that 198X world record can finally fall? :) what are your thoughts on this?

Blizzard technology is done on Champion plastic to reduce weight. Condors and Pebbles are already weight reduced by using polyethylene. We would have to develop a different tech for making polyethylene discs lighter. I believe it can be done.

However, it may not need to be done as the drivers we are making now in very low weights, may be very good themselves as MTA discs. MTA, like distance, is a combination of gaining altitude, and gliding on the available wind for as long as possible. One for time and one for distance. A 100-110gm Blizzard driver might do the trick. Disc speed is basically altitude. Drivers have that in spades. The rest is flight characteristic allowing the longest glide time or path.

Dave,
Do you think one of the new blizzard discs will have a chance to break the distance record?

Sorry if this has already been covered but I was wondering if there were plans to produce other models with the blizzard technology. Although I love the blizzard Boss that I bought (139g of heaven) I am pretty used to throwing Orcs, Leopards and Firebirds.

Dave,
Do you think one of the new blizzard discs will have a chance to break the distance record?

Yes. David Wiggins has already done that informally with a 150 Blizzard Boss. He threw one 827 ft in practice. He also threw a Blizzard Katana just short of the record.

Sorry if this has already been covered but I was wondering if there were plans to produce other models with the blizzard technology. Although I love the blizzard Boss that I bought (139g of heaven) I am pretty used to throwing Orcs, Leopards and Firebirds.

If you are referring to narrower rim drivers, probably not soon. If you just mean other models we have not released, yes. The Wraith has the smallest rim so far.
The Beast will probably be done sometime this year. Discs that we already have run Champion in the 150g range will be last, probably.

So far the menu includes: Boss, Destroyer, Katana, TeeDevil, Ape, Wraith, and Dominator.

One thing I want to know is if people are interested or know of others who would be interested in light weight Champion long range drivers. The other question would be probably a little trickier as people might not have an idea of what weight is actually best for them until they try. But that question is: what weight do you think would work best for you?

The fact of the matter is that we are able, (with some difficultly), to make virtually any weight Boss, Destroyer, Katana, etc. in Champion down to about 110 gms. If we bother to go to the research time and expense, will disc golf respond to this new product or will they continue to follow the mantra of "heavier is better".


I think the "heavier is better" mantra is a huge impediment, as I have heard many say things like "I can't throw anything but max weight" or they will call a stable disc understable because from their closed perspective their arm is too big for that mold of disc. It would probably do them well to learn the technique of how to throw understable discs far, but unless they are open to it that is an uphill battle. However, if you come out with a disc that gets the disc golf world buzzing because it breaks a world record for distance or because they see other disc golfers using such discs to advantage -- it will probably catch on like wildfire.

i know little about ball golf, but haven't advances in design there caused the same criticism and acclaim? (or say as did the bigger tennis rackets that came out -- I still remember McEnroe, Borg, Connors, etc. using the small rackets).

that said, i am not immune to the whole heavier is better BS and probably throw discs a few grams heavier than would be optimal. now with putters, i think a good case can be made that heavier *is* better...

Maybe the trick to changing the "heavier is better" BS, would be to start a subtle campaign questioning the toughness of any disc golfer who was averse to throwing lighter plastic. :)


So far, I can only see three disadvantages and at least four advantages. The disadvantages are: they don't penetrate leaves and other foliage as well, they don't forgive poor throwing (flutter) as well, they may not be as good in the wind, (although this has not been shown yet). So far, any wind disadvantage seems to be tied to flutter. And, also tied to flutter is that they don't work as well for side arms because it is too easy to flutter.

The advantages I see are: they are much easier to whip, they carry farther, they make my bag lighter when I have several, they do well with hitting trees as they don't seem to taco as much, they seem to have a little less low speed overstability. Subjectively, they are more fun and I don't seem to get as tired.

I was wondering if the bubbles actually make the plastic more resilient? (in the sense that flexibility means strength).

Thanks for coming out with the Blizzard plastic. as with the Eagle/Aero in 1983, I think unless you buck the prevailing mentality and just build it so people can discover what it really means when the disc hits the air, there will not be enough support to do it.

I look forward to trying a Blizzard Destroyer. A Blizzard TL might be nice too :-)

Biggest breakthrough in years. Good going. Just about everyone who has one is finding greater distance in the right conditions.
Where is the next WFDF Overall? Records will fall!

Biggest breakthrough in years. Good going. Just about everyone who has one is finding greater distance in the right conditions.
Where is the next WFDF Overall? Records will fall!

There may be one before this, not sure.
http://www.scientificdiscgolf.com/HDDC2012flyer.html

[QUOTE=


I was wondering if the bubbles actually make the plastic more resilient? (in the sense that flexibility means strength).
)[/QUOTE]

I believe the Blizzards have better impact (tree hit) resistance, but less abrasion (scuff) resistance.

would love to see blizzard valks as well as arcs and rr as far as unders go

also watch a buddy beat the sh*t out of his in one week no real char. change other than a slight bit deeper laserations in the plate but i will def. deal with that katana blizz by the way

Maybe the Blizzard bubbles should be filled with Helium. Hmm...

I am totally in love with my 150 gram Wraith. I am 53 years old and throw around 320 with normal Innova disc. This weekend I amazed myself with some Blizzars shots.

My take so far, is they are kind of like a Roc. You need to trust the disc and let it do it's thing..

Dave,

Not sure if this has been asked before, but I rarely ever see stock champion or stock star discs with white stamps anymore. They seem to be pretty desirable among discs from the past like kc pro and ce. Are they just uncommon or is there a reason for very few white stamp discs?

Thanks

Dave,

Not sure if this has been asked before, but I rarely ever see stock champion or stock star discs with white stamps anymore. They seem to be pretty desirable among discs from the past like kc pro and ce. Are they just uncommon or is there a reason for very few white stamp discs?

Thanks

They are uncommon. We have tended to use metallic foils, which, we think, generally have more appeal.

Hey how did your operation go apparently ricks went well rumor mill says he's bAck I'n the shop i gotta get I'n there an see him.

Hey how did your operation go apparently ricks went well rumor mill says he's bAck I'n the shop i gotta get I'n there an see him.

Operation went well. Torn meniscus was fixed. My knee is still a little swollen, but I am doing fine, thank you.

Been there. Done that. Isn't it great what Dr's can do for us old guys.

Hey Dave, thanks for taking time out to answer all these questions. I have a question about the Xcal, hopefully it's not something that has been asked and I just missed it.

Has the mold changed? Or is it just a plastic variation right now? I am a disc retailer and use to sell a lot of Star Xcals, but the last few orders I have gotten in people are complaining that they are not Xcals, but more like Maxs as far as stability goes. Can you shed any light on this for me to tell my customers? Thanks again!

Hey Dave, thanks for taking time out to answer all these questions. I have a question about the Xcal, hopefully it's not something that has been asked and I just missed it.

Has the mold changed? Or is it just a plastic variation right now? I am a disc retailer and use to sell a lot of Star Xcals, but the last few orders I have gotten in people are complaining that they are not Xcals, but more like Maxs as far as stability goes. Can you shed any light on this for me to tell my customers? Thanks again!

The mold has not changed. What is the specific complaint? I don't understand what being more like a Max means. Does this mean they are too stable or not stable enough?

Thanks

Hey Dave, thanks for taking time out to answer all these questions. I have a question about the Xcal, hopefully it's not something that has been asked and I just missed it.

Has the mold changed? Or is it just a plastic variation right now? I am a disc retailer and use to sell a lot of Star Xcals, but the last few orders I have gotten in people are complaining that they are not Xcals, but more like Maxs as far as stability goes. Can you shed any light on this for me to tell my customers? Thanks again!

The xcal is supposed to be a slightly faster max, overstable. People got a hold of some less stable xcals and that's what they think the disc is supposed to be, but its not, they should try a boss instead.

The mold has not changed. What is the specific complaint? I don't understand what being more like a Max means. Does this mean they are too stable or not stable enough?

Thanks

The reports I am getting is they are way more overstable and have less glide than in the past. Think they started telling me this about 3 months ago. Told them to just wait till the next run and they would probably be back to the same: that it was probably just something with this run, but thought I'd ask just to make sure.

The reports I am getting is they are way more overstable and have less glide than in the past. Think they started telling me this about 3 months ago. Told them to just wait till the next run and they would probably be back to the same: that it was probably just something with this run, but thought I'd ask just to make sure.

I think you are probably right.

Dave, earlier you said you had made some champion Zephyrs that would be available at the Pro Shop. I haven't seen them. Did I miss them?

Dave, earlier you said you had made some champion Zephyrs that would be available at the Pro Shop. I haven't seen them. Did I miss them?

I am also interrested...

Dave, earlier you said you had made some champion Zephyrs that would be available at the Pro Shop. I haven't seen them. Did I miss them?

I assume he, (eric), hasn't put them up yet. I will check. They were made.

Hi Dave, I'm new to the PDGA and just started Discing last summer at the ripe young age of 46. I have spent the last year trying different discs to find the one that best fits my throwing style. So far my top 2 fav discs are the Valk, and the Wraith. However when at play it again we bought a Star SL, I threw it a couple of times and have fell in love with it, I recently bought a heavier SL and I read somewhere that the SL is going to stop being made, is this true? I Hope not but would like to know, thanks.

Hi Dave, I'm new to the PDGA and just started Discing last summer at the ripe young age of 46. I have spent the last year trying different discs to find the one that best fits my throwing style. So far my top 2 fav discs are the Valk, and the Wraith. However when at play it again we bought a Star SL, I threw it a couple of times and have fell in love with it, I recently bought a heavier SL and I read somewhere that the SL is going to stop being made, is this true? I Hope not but would like to know, thanks.

We will still make the Star SL and the Pro SL. You might want to try an Archon too. It is like a little mellower flying Wraith.

We will still make the Star SL and the Pro SL. You might want to try an Archon too. It is like a little mellower flying Wraith.

I have a champion Archon, got it about two weeks ago, only have thrown it a few times, still breaking it in. I still get the most distance with my Valk, but I'm working on my technique, it was pointed out to me when i release the disk the nose is slightly up so I have not been throwing flat. I'm thinking about trying the Mamba since I dont have the strongest throws yet, I have been looking for reviews on the Mamba to see what other discers think of it. Last summer I bought a Vulcan and had struggled with it, but since I started throwing last month it is starting to fly better for me, I still struggle with the Boss though, maybe the 13 speed discs are to fast for me, I will keep them around until i get stronger throws. I will say this as far as mid range discs, I have thrown a Buzzz SS for a while but really wanted a Innova Mid, so I bought a XG Roc+, I absolutely love this disc and highly recomend it, i'm slowely pushing all of the Discraft discs out of my Bag and replacing them with Innova. It took me a while to find a Putter that i'm comfy with, I tryed a Dart, Banger gt, APX, and now I have found a Putter that fits me well, it is a Soft Champion Ryhno, and now Im content with it. Dave can you give me some comments you have heard about the Mamba? Thanks.

Dave can you give me some comments you have heard about the Mamba? Thanks.

The Mamba is a finesse driver. It has good speed and glide, but is speed sensitive for flight character. The turning rating is the highest of our drivers and comes into play for higher power throws. For medium power it is very controllable. For high power, it would take a bit of skill to master this disc. It is very easy to get 300ft throwing from a standstill with a little hyzer fairly low to the ground.

I have been using a 170gm Mamba for rollers and long tunnel shots. Rollers are fairly spectacular at times at full power. At 75% power, I have been having good success with the tunnel shots starting with a hyzer and flipping to flat.

this isnt a question but rather a thumbs up for the blizzards. it has added about 100' to my throw. i am just coming off of a knee injury that had me off the course for 3 months so i think the distance will get even better once my leg muscles get back in shape. just use less power/snap people and these things float forever.

Hi Dave,
We recently got our tournament order in from Innova. Along with all of the tournament stamped discs (which came out awesome by the way) we got a few extras including some lycans with the star stamp and another few drivers with the star stamp with "dv" on the bottom. What kind of disc are these? Are they the Dominator? Thanks!

Nevermind, its a tee devil isn't it?

Nevermind, its a tee devil isn't it?

yep

double post

Dave,

Is there any chance of seeing the Innova Ram making a come back for the Proshop?

Also, what about the piranha? My last one just cracked in half.

Dave,

Is there any chance of seeing the Innova Ram making a come back for the Proshop?

Also, what about the piranha? My last one just cracked in half.

Ram yes, Piranha no. The Piranha mold no longer exists. Sorry.

Dave,

The newest run of star valks, is it in a plus mold? If it is, why was this done? The new star valks are nothing like the old ones and I know many people that wish it went back to the regular mold. Thanks for your time.

Hi Dave, my Blizzard Champ Destroyers (158g) are amazing. They seem faster than my heavy Destroyers, is that an illusion or because one gets more arm-speed given there is less mass to move? Like my 170's Star Destroyers they go crazy long on hyzer routes but seem faster & longer. Not sure if this may help other former ultimate frisbee players but I found out the reason I have trouble turning Boss'es is because I throw with an 'FU' grip and not the power grip. I tried the power grip and it inclines the nose much further down and the Boss turns easily. (although accuracy definitely suffers, at least for now...)

Dave I have been looking around for a while now at the different metal flake discs they have to offer, but just cant seem to find any Metal Flake Valkyrie's. Have they made any of them, or plan on doing so? The Valk is number one in my book and would love to get it in metal flake, or even in XG.

Dave I have been looking around for a while now at the different metal flake discs they have to offer, but just cant seem to find any Metal Flake Valkyrie's. Have they made any of them, or plan on doing so? The Valk is number one in my book and would love to get it in metal flake, or even in XG.

We do very little metal flake as it doesn't really agree with our machines. But there is always the possibility of small runs in any Champion model. I don't believe we have done any Valkyries as yet.

Whats the deal with these "Replica 10x Glow Rocs"

Whats the deal with these "Replica 10x Glow Rocs"

I don't know the details. KC Glow Rocs is all I know. Mark Molnar at Innova West might be able to tell you more.

Ok, thanks. Stores (and people) are selling/marketing them as "The 10x Roc Mold". They have a throwback 10x style stamp, which I believe to be causing some confusion.

Is there a different KC Roc Mold? If so, how many different KC Roc molds are there? Or are those questions for Mark.

Thanks

Ok, thanks. Stores (and people) are selling/marketing them as "The 10x Roc Mold". They have a throwback 10x style stamp, which I believe to be causing some confusion.

Is there a different KC Roc Mold? If so, how many different KC Roc molds are there? Or are those questions for Mark.

Thanks

There is only one KC Roc mold at this time. Originally we had one slightly different version that we used for 8X or 9X. It had a slightly blunter nose. Other than that, we have only used one mold which is called the Rancho mold. The hot stamp put on the disc, could be anything. I don't know much about the hot stamps. Only the molds themselves.

Dave,

The newest run of star valks, is it in a plus mold? If it is, why was this done? The new star valks are nothing like the old ones and I know many people that wish it went back to the regular mold. Thanks for your time.

Dave,

The newest run of star valks, is it in a plus mold? If it is, why was this done? The new star valks are nothing like the old ones and I know many people that wish it went back to the regular mold. Thanks for your time.

We do not have a plus valkyrie mold. We do have a slightly altered mold that allows us to make heavy Champion without filler. The only true plus molds are Roc/XD + and TeeBird/Eagle +

Dave, why can't you run Champ SW @ 150 anymore?

Dave, why can't you run Champ SW @ 150 anymore?

Sometimes we can, but sometimes the quality is not good enough or we are having too many rejects. It depends on the plastic we get from the supplier. It is not always the same.

Hey Dave,

Just noticed a few of the discs that have come out more recently and have a few questions: How similar are the Lycan and the Super StingRay and are either close relatives of the Aurora MS? What flight numbers would you give the MS?

Finally, I saw a Wedge today and it think it might improve my release consistency for putts, but I am hesitant to go down the 'sexy new putter' path again only to find the same old problem being the person behind the disc... How long has it been out and do you think it will eventually be released in R-Pro or super soft plastic?

Hey Dave,

Just noticed a few of the discs that have come out more recently and have a few questions: How similar are the Lycan and the Super StingRay and are either close relatives of the Aurora MS? What flight numbers would you give the MS?

Finally, I saw a Wedge today and it think it might improve my release consistency for putts, but I am hesitant to go down the 'sexy new putter' path again only to find the same old problem being the person behind the disc... How long has it been out and do you think it will eventually be released in R-Pro or super soft plastic?

The Lycan and the Super Stingray are close to the same flight as each other. The flight of the Lycan is a little more like the MS, and has more in common than the Super Stingray. MS flight numbers would be 4402. All three would have a different feel in the hand.

The Wedge has been out about a year, and is primarily a do everything short range disc. I don't know if we will make it in R-Pro, but we have made it in
Star.

Anytime you change putters there can be a period of time which you have an improved feel of the disc and therefore, an improved release. You can even get this "honeymoon" phenomenon with a driver. If you are happy with the flight of your current putter, stay with it and concentrate on popping the put with your thumb instead of your fingers. Grippy putters help with this. Thumtracs can help with this. Neither will pop the putt for you. I would recommend the Yeti over the Wedge. It is closer to the JK you have used, is tacky but firm, holds a straight line better than a JK as it has less low speed fade, and has a sort of thumb grip with the sunken flight plate.

Thanks for the Champion Zephyr's Dave!
Disc golf can get stressful at times. Practice is work, and messing up shots or not playing near potential is never fun.
The first few throws with my new Ch. Zephyr were like a revelation. "OH! Right! I do this 'cause it's fun!" I'd forgotten how pretty flying discs can be.
Thanks again.

The Sonic is the best out of the box turnover putter ever made. It is overlooked and should be in more bags.

Dave this may be a dumb question but Just currious, have you tried or plan on trying to put the bubbles into star plastic? Maybe it wont work in that plastic. I do love the blizzards and would love it in my favorite plastic. Thanks

Dave, what is your plan for the Krait, when will it be released

Dave this may be a dumb question but Just currious, have you tried or plan on trying to put the bubbles into star plastic? Maybe it wont work in that plastic. I do love the blizzards and would love it in my favorite plastic. Thanks

We have done this in a minor way in the past. Starlite Bosses and Destroyers were the first. We were only able to shave a few grams off for these and it tended to make them more over stable than the originals.

Dave, what is your plan for the Krait, when will it be released

We haven't got a release date yet for the Krait, but it will be made in Champion and Blizzard. I would have to guess at a June release.

We haven't got a release date yet for the Krait, but it will be made in Champion and Blizzard. I would have to guess at a June release.

What will the rating for the disc be

What will the rating for the disc be


11, 5, -1 och 2. According to the Innova website.

11, 5, -1 och 2. According to the Innova website.

Do you have a URL for this, because i scoured over both the innovadiscs.com and dealer.innovadiscs.com and Im not seeing any such info on the disc.

Maybe Chrome doesn't like the site.... I would try IE and look for it, but i'd rather not launch that piece of crap software.

Do you have a URL for this, because i scoured over both the innovadiscs.com and dealer.innovadiscs.com and Im not seeing any such info on the disc.

Maybe Chrome doesn't like the site.... I would try IE and look for it, but i'd rather not launch that piece of crap software.

Works great in chrome:

http://www.innovadiscs.com/media/PDF/2012-driver-web.pdf

Dave, we have heard a few variations of the Blizzard developement.
Accident, on purpose, etc. What is the real story on this great innovation? Thanks.

Dave, we have heard a few variations of the Blizzard developement.
Accident, on purpose, etc. What is the real story on this great innovation? Thanks.

It was definitely on purpose. It started a couple of years ago with the Starlite discs. We were able to get a few grams lighter with Bosses and Destroyers. These were the initial discs this development was aimed at. We could only get Bosses in Champion or Star down to about 168gms at best. With Blizzard we got them down to 164, but it also affected the stability. They got too stable, which wasn't bad, but it meant they wouldn't be good right off the shelf.

We knew we wanted to get the Champion and Star discs down in weights usable to mere mortals. At the time, we were thinking upper 150's and lower 160's. The initial reaction to what we had was to worry about the cosmetic effect and how the market would react to something different looking and feeling, even if it did fly better. Our own staff was very skeptical about the appearance and market acceptance.

Once my son Koby was able to improve the technique and get the weights down as low as we wanted, we began to think beyond the appearance, because the performance was so spectacular. Every time we had one of our testers try them, the reaction was them same; they were amazed and often giggled. That was a good reaction.

Making Blizzards is fairly difficult as a consistent product is very difficult. We started with bubbles in the flight plate and rim, but moved to just the rim as they were more consistent and easier to hot stamp.

Eventually, Koby was able to use the Blizzard technique on DX and could get DX Condors down to 120gms and Pulsars down from 180gm to 165gms.

We are still experimenting, but it looks like Blizzards are here to stay. The combination of lower weight higher speed discs is very attractive, I think. It doesn't seem to be of much value for the slower speed golf discs, as they need more weight to push through the wind. However, discs like Condors and Pulsars can benefit from the extra glide they get.

..So I would think Koby is set there at Innova. This is a huge advancement in disc golf driving distance.

Until I started throwing these the Starlight was by far the best Boss Innova had ever released....but the Blizzard has all but replaced it in my bag. I still carry the Starlight for extreme headwinds, but these 155g Blizzards are the TRUTH.

Since I took the time to learn them ( Which in my sales experiance is the difference between those that have liked them vs. those who havent ) I can do about everything with them, including flicks. It has also helped my game in terms of health, as I no longer require more than a step or two run-up, my knees, ankles and back all feel great after even the most demanding courses. ( Not to mention my arm felt like a million bucks )

To be blunt, imo, anyone that isnt trying to add these to thier bags are either sponsored by another company or are cavemen. Dont get me wrong, I understand these are DISTANCE DRIVERS. They arent replacing my heavier weight control drivers, just my high speed distance discs. That being said, they are also very reliable due to the hard finish, I have confidence throwing them on tree lined tunnel touch shots with the same confidence I have blasting a open field drive. Much like any disc its about the dedication to learning the charectorists that make it a great weapon.

..And No, I dont have slow arm speed, I am a good enough player to slow my armspeed down and cut out the run=up. I just love being places on the course Ive never been before, thats what it does for Me.

Negatives for me is that I love throwing them, maybe too much. I feel like I can bully them into robbing a gas station if thats what I wanted. I think sometimes I gamble on certain shots but thats also because of a newfound confidence.

I love them though and dont see them leaving the bag anytime soon.

Thanks Dave.

Dave, i have been looking at Roc's in general when i came along to the San Marino Roc. At Discgolfcenter they say the numbers on it are as follows 4, 4, -1, 2. Then I was looking at them on Discgolfvalues and they said the numbers for the same disc is 4, 4, 0, 3. Could you tell me what the actual numbers are for the Star San Marino Roc? Thanks Dave

Dave, all the mere mortals thank you.

Dave, I would love to try out some Blizz Champ Jaguars, any thoughts of running a batch?
They old DX Jags are getting rare, some sell for over $40 on ebay?

Dave, i have been looking at Roc's in general when i came along to the San Marino Roc. At Discgolfcenter they say the numbers on it are as follows 4, 4, -1, 2. Then I was looking at them on Discgolfvalues and they said the numbers for the same disc is 4, 4, 0, 3. Could you tell me what the actual numbers are for the Star San Marino Roc? Thanks Dave

All San Marinos are 4,4,0,3. Only the old Ontarios, (which we don't run anymore) were 4,4,-1,2.

Dave, I would love to try out some Blizz Champ Jaguars, any thoughts of running a batch?
They old DX Jags are getting rare, some sell for over $40 on ebay?

Yes, there is a chance, as the mold still exists. We haven't scheduled it as yet.

Dave, I do love my new Mamba, any plans on making this in Blizzard?

Dave, I do love my new Mamba, any plans on making this in Blizzard?

Not right now, at any rate. They already go down to the low 150s; (and fly really well at that weight)

Hey Dave there is a rumor floating around here that the Rhyno, Pig, and Monarchs and discs as such are bout to be illegal, is there any truth to that?

Hello Dave,

I am mostly a lurker around here but since you are discussing Blizzard discs I thought I would ask you for a reccomendation.

I currently have one Blizzard disc, a 154 Boss which works well for me as a distance hyzer driver. I would like to add another Blizzard disc to my bag that will give me a longer distance anhyzer weapon. Could you reccomend one for me?

I am an older guy (rhbh) that doesn't have great arm speed, but do have decent strength. I usually throw drivers in the 167-172 range and have had success with Wraith's, Vulcans, Archons and a Nuke (I know another brand).

I appreciate any insight you may have.

Thanks,

Rick G

Hey Dave there is a rumor floating around here that the Rhyno, Pig, and Monarchs and discs as such are bout to be illegal, is there any truth to that?

Not that I know of.

Hello Dave,

I am mostly a lurker around here but since you are discussing Blizzard discs I thought I would ask you for a reccomendation.

I currently have one Blizzard disc, a 154 Boss which works well for me as a distance hyzer driver. I would like to add another Blizzard disc to my bag that will give me a longer distance anhyzer weapon. Could you reccomend one for me?

I am an older guy (rhbh) that doesn't have great arm speed, but do have decent strength. I usually throw drivers in the 167-172 range and have had success with Wraith's, Vulcans, Archons and a Nuke (I know another brand).

I appreciate any insight you may have.

Thanks,

Rick G

Blizzard Wraith, Blizzard DD2, and Blizzard Katana. I personally use DD2 and Katanas from 157 to 167gms. Of these named discs, the Katana turns the most, but unless you have 360ft of power or more, it is a very reliable driver. The DD2 will take you up to about 380ft of reliable power. From 380ft to 400, you would need a Blizzard TeeDevil or Boss, and over 400ft, a Blizzard Destroyer.

Another way to go is a lighter Blizzard Boss in the low 140s. Easier to turn over and longer gliding, but it won't be as good in the wind.

Dave, i have been waiting a little while for the standard version of the Dominator to be released instead of the CFR's. When do you see the standered Blizzard Dominators being released for sell?

Dave, i have been waiting a little while for the standard version of the Dominator to be released instead of the CFR's. When do you see the standered Blizzard Dominators being released for sell?

Really not sure at this point, but certainly not before June sometime.

Dave,

Many thanks to you and your son for the Blizzard line! I have been throwing lighter plastic for several years (mostly Sidewinders, Valks, Beasts and Orcs in the 150's), and have always wished for 150g or less models of the wide-winged drivers. R-Pro helped a little, but these new Blizzard Champion discs bomb, and they're somewhat durable.

I've mostly been throwing Katanas. 150 Katanas hyper-flip up to flat for me and carry a mile. Once they're beat in, they become great turnover drivers. Right now I'm learning how to control a 130g Katana. A near-vertical hyzer release downwind and it carries a long way.

I've found most other models at 150g to be too over-stable for my arm speed. Bit by bit I'll try some lighter ones as budget allows.

These discs have leveled the playing field a bit for me (especially at Goat Hill). Great work!!!

Dave,

Many thanks to you and your son for the Blizzard line! I have been throwing lighter plastic for several years (mostly Sidewinders, Valks, Beasts and Orcs in the 150's), and have always wished for 150g or less models of the wide-winged drivers. R-Pro helped a little, but these new Blizzard Champion discs bomb, and they're somewhat durable.

I've mostly been throwing Katanas. 150 Katanas hyper-flip up to flat for me and carry a mile. Once they're beat in, they become great turnover drivers. Right now I'm learning how to control a 130g Katana. A near-vertical hyzer release downwind and it carries a long way.

I've found most other models at 150g to be too over-stable for my arm speed. Bit by bit I'll try some lighter ones as budget allows.

These discs have leveled the playing field a bit for me (especially at Goat Hill). Great work!!!

Thanks Allen.

Dave, the Waterford Brakels are enjoying the Blizzard discs. Kelsey is getting 400 foot drives with the 150 Katana. And beating me.

Do you know how much they'll break in? For example, Diana's 130ish TeeDevil started out as a hyzer disc for her but after a month has broken in to more of a line drive disc with a little early turn and a lot of fade on the finish. My 150 Boss has broken in from a hyzer disc to more of a line drive with fade disc, but it has not had as many knocks as Diana's TeeDevil.

Dave, the Waterford Brakels are enjoying the Blizzard discs. Kelsey is getting 400 foot drives with the 150 Katana. And beating me.

Do you know how much they'll break in? For example, Diana's 130ish TeeDevil started out as a hyzer disc for her but after a month has broken in to more of a line drive disc with a little early turn and a lot of fade on the finish. My 150 Boss has broken in from a hyzer disc to more of a line drive with fade disc, but it has not had as many knocks as Diana's TeeDevil.

The Blizzards all break in more than regular Champion, but slower than Pro and much slower than DX. The heavier Blizzards are generally a little tougher than the lighter Blizzards. Break in is also dependent on the environment thrown in. If you play on grass, your break in period will be much slower than if you play on other, rougher surfaces. If you want a Blizzard to last a long time, you can use a slightly too stable model to start. After it in wears in, it will last a good long time. The Ape is the most stable, followed by the Destroyer, then Boss, then TeeDevil, Wraith, and Katana. We also make two Discmania blizzards; the PD2, which is close to Ape Stable, and the DD2, which is close to TeeDevil stable. Higher weights tend to be a little more stable and wind resistant.

Is it possible that blizzard discs will be released in glow at some point? What I mean is, does the glow additive prevent lower weights, or application of blizzard technology?

Is it possible that blizzard discs will be released in glow at some point? What I mean is, does the glow additive prevent lower weights, or application of blizzard technology?

We are going to test that out at some point. Glow is definitely heavier, but not much.

Hey Dave,

Any truth to the rumor that The Dominator is being re-tooled?

Thanks,

Mike

I recently bought new 12x champion firebird, the one with the little circle silhouette of Ken Climo. It is super flat and very stable! The plastic also seems to be more translucent than see through, and is very stiff. I asked you awhile ago about the molds changing over the years, and you told me that it wasn't the mold but the plastic that changes over the years. What other molds were made with that run of plastic? Can we expect any nice stiff eagles or teebirds coming soon?

Also I love the blizzard discs! I recently parked a 460 hole in a headwind with a 159 Ape, it has definitely helped my game. Can we expect any Blizzard Xcals or other overstable discs that can handle the big winds?

Thank you for your time.

Hey Dave,

Any truth to the rumor that The Dominator is being re-tooled?

Thanks,

Mike
The run will be slightly different than the protos, which is all that has been released so far.

I recently bought new 12x champion firebird, the one with the little circle silhouette of Ken Climo. It is super flat and very stable! The plastic also seems to be more translucent than see through, and is very stiff. I asked you awhile ago about the molds changing over the years, and you told me that it wasn't the mold but the plastic that changes over the years. What other molds were made with that run of plastic? Can we expect any nice stiff eagles or teebirds coming soon?

Also I love the blizzard discs! I recently parked a 460 hole in a headwind with a 159 Ape, it has definitely helped my game. Can we expect any Blizzard Xcals or other overstable discs that can handle the big winds?

Thank you for your time.

We may use that plastic for a small run of TeeBirds or Eagles for the store.
So far, just the Ape and Destroyers are wind fighters. I doubt we release an entire run of Blizzard XCals or Maxes, but we might sample some to see the market reaction. More likely, we will have some lower weights of those discs, such as the sixties.

Also I love the blizzard discs! I recently parked a 460 hole in a headwind with a 159 Ape, it has definitely helped my game. Can we expect any Blizzard Xcals or other overstable discs that can handle the big winds?

Thank you for your time.

Sorry, I forgot about the PD2. We have run that in Blizzard and X-outs are available at the Store.

The run will be slightly different than the protos, which is all that has been released so far.

different as in more stable? - or how?

June product update possibly for the release?

Sorry, I forgot about the PD2. We have run that in Blizzard and X-outs are available at the Store.


What about for your brick and mortar retailers? The Innova store may be great and all, but dont you think about your retailers that want and need discs like these to pull in customers? Theres nothing like hearing " Oh I got it at the Innova Factory Store because you cant order them " from my customers.

I guess it just doesnt matter right?

What about for your brick and mortar retailers? The Innova store may be great and all, but dont you think about your retailers that want and need discs like these to pull in customers? Theres nothing like hearing " Oh I got it at the Innova Factory Store because you cant order them " from my customers.

I guess it just doesnt matter right?

We are just selling F2 discs at the store. Try contacting the Factory Store for dealer pricing on F2s. The release on non F2s hasn't happened yet.