No, not on Champion. I believe we did run some Star Gator Xs for the regular line up.

Define Gator-X..

Current star mold with no bead or older champ mod with a bead? Star plastic in the current CFR mold? That would be great!

-Chris

Define Gator-X..

Current star mold with no bead or older champ mod with a bead? Star plastic in the current CFR mold? That would be great!

-Chris

Beaded Gator X. The bead doesn't make it X.

Pro plastic has evolved several times over the years. It is more like Star than it used to be to try and give it more durability. The big draw for Pro is the grip and that it domes up more than our other plastics but doesn't get unstable when it does. I believe we are using the regular Starfire mold for Pro because the SL mold was having issues. The break in period may take a little longer.

thanks a lot...I definitely think pro is my favorite plastic, seems to have the right mix of grip, glide, and durability for my tastes.

this whole site being down thing is confusing me. just trying to check out this new disc!

well, I was online at 12 yesterday when the katana was supposed to go on sale. apparently it went down because I tried for a few hours while the site was still up yesterday. kept getting to the add to cart screen then timing out.

saw that they would be online again today, went for a quick lunch around 12 cst back to the office and hop on the hero website and they are sold out.... so frustrating because ive been online for the past 2 days refreshing and waiting to try and get a couple of these for me and my buddies (to throw.. not to resell on ebay).

even when the bosses came out for the first release online, I easy got some of those ordered... no problem.. I don't see why it was so limited, I was even ready to pay the overpriced $25 fundraiser price too...

is it the end of the world, no... but it is frustrating.

The Katanas are not sold out. They will be going on sale at 12:00 noon PDT today (10-22-09). HerodiscUSA had to get a new host to handle the high volume of traffic on their website.

The Katanas are not sold out. They will be going on sale at 12:00 noon PDT today (10-22-09). HerodiscUSA had to get a new host to handle the high volume of traffic on their website.

will be cool if that is the case, i am excited to hear it!

I was thinking I missed it again, same as yesterday.

will be cool if that is the case, i am excited to hear it!

I was thinking I missed it again, same as yesterday.

The site is up and selling now.

Hey Dave, sorry if this has been asked before. I tried searching and didn't come up with an answer. A guy on our local clubs forums was saying he picked up a Feldberg stamped Champ Boss and was wondering if it was a new stamp. We all told him it wasn't new, but we all wondered whether the Champ Bosses have ever been stamped without Feldberg's signature. Just a curiousity. Thanks Dave!

Dave,
How does the start Mako comapre to other midranges like the roc, coyote, and shark? I read the reviews on the Innova site, but was interested to here what your opinion on it was.

Thanks!

When they first came out they had a the big Innova Star stamp on them. Those were a limited run, but right after that they came out with the DF stamp. I think some of them are more domey than others. Hope that helps! At least that's what I know of them!

I just threw a Pro Boss against the wall 15 times. Now I have a Katana.

Hey Dave, sorry if this has been asked before. I tried searching and didn't come up with an answer. A guy on our local clubs forums was saying he picked up a Feldberg stamped Champ Boss and was wondering if it was a new stamp. We all told him it wasn't new, but we all wondered whether the Champ Bosses have ever been stamped without Feldberg's signature. Just a curiousity. Thanks Dave!

Just the first run star stamp, I believe.

Dave,
How does the start Mako comapre to other midranges like the roc, coyote, and shark? I read the reviews on the Innova site, but was interested to here what your opinion on it was.

Thanks!

It is less over stable than any of the others. The range is similar or possibly slightly better due to the straight finish. The Mako can be used to putt too, as it has a similar characteristic to our Aviar P&A with more range and speed. Stingrays and Cobras turn more high speed, but they also come back more low speed. It is the low speed finish that I like. It is definitely a finesse disc, as opposed to a power disc like a new Roc, Cro, or especially Gator.

Right on, thanks Dave!

Hey Dave,
I was wondering if the Katana was anything like the Boss in the way of lighter weights being more stable than their max weight counterparts. And when are we looking at it being released in star plastic? Thanks so much for continually pushing the bar and I look forward to throwing this disc and I know my gf is very happy to have something that she will be able to hyzer flip that has some speed behind it.

Beaded Gator X. The bead doesn't make it X.

How are the Gator Xs differentiated from the regular Gators? Does the underside say Gx? As always, thanks for your time and commitment.

They should be marked as such and I think the main difference in gator and gatorx is it has a blunter nose on it.

Dave,
Do you know if S Johnson ever plans on publishing that book on disc golf discs?

Thx

Hey Dave,
I was wondering if the Katana was anything like the Boss in the way of lighter weights being more stable than their max weight counterparts. And when are we looking at it being released in star plastic? Thanks so much for continually pushing the bar and I look forward to throwing this disc and I know my gf is very happy to have something that she will be able to hyzer flip that has some speed behind it.

Only the lighter Starlight Bosses are more stable than the heavier Star Bosses. The other plastics generally follow the normal pattern. We will try Starlight in Katanas at some point. We haven't even test Star in a Katana so there is no release date for that at all.

Dave,
Do you know if S Johnson ever plans on publishing that book on disc golf discs?

Thx

I hope so. I know he is still working on it. From the amount of questions and answers I have participated in, I believe it is going to be a tome.

So lets say I get a Pro Boss at 175g what Star Boss weight would you say it would equal in stability.

So lets say I get a Pro Boss at 175g what Star Boss weight would you say it would equal in stability.

The Pro would probably be closest to the 175g Star, but still not quite as stable.

It is less over stable than any of the others. The range is similar or possibly slightly better due to the straight finish. The Mako can be used to putt too, as it has a similar characteristic to our Aviar P&A with more range and speed. Stingrays and Cobras turn more high speed, but they also come back more low speed. It is the low speed finish that I like. It is definitely a finesse disc, as opposed to a power disc like a new Roc, Cro, or especially Gator.

I threw a Mako today. Its very nice. I thought it was very similar to a coyote, just a little more stable in my opinion.

I threw a Mako today. Its very nice. I thought it was very similar to a coyote, just a little more stable in my opinion.

More like a buzzz?

the Mako is a stable (straight) disc. Very putter-like in flite. If thrown flat, it flies straight with very little fade. It holds a line very well. If you get over on it, it will turn over. Not great into a headwind. I think it's found a place in my bag.

Hey Dave,

How does the Mako compare with the Aurora MS / QMS?

Hey Dave,

How does the Mako compare with the Aurora MS / QMS?

Excellent question - looking forward to the answer.

Also, Dave, what will the low end of the weight range be for the Mako?

Hey Dave,

How does the Mako compare with the Aurora MS / QMS?

It has more torque resistance, but otherwise compares fairly well with a slightly seasoned MS, I think. A new MS would be more overstable at low speeds. I think the MS would compare more to the new Coyote.

Excellent question - looking forward to the answer.

Also, Dave, what will the low end of the weight range be for the Mako?

Not sure what they will be eventually, but for now, 165g is the lowest we are offering.

The Mako might just replace my XD...if it was pro plastic, no question it would. Also liking the Pro Boss!

I didn't see many Katanas with a sub 150 weight. I thought there would be more because of the affiliation with the JO.

There are 17 in the 140-150 range (all of which are sold out) and 91 in the 151-155 range. Those 151-155 would be dangerous to take over there and then not fall below the 152 cut off. Is there a plan to make more a lower numbers before the JO? Maybe out of DX?

Im sure Im wrong, but I thought that they may be upping the weights there.

Dave,
Was there a HOF disc made the year you were inducted? Trying to complete a set and would need this one if it was made.

Thx

Im sure Im wrong, but I thought that they may be upping the weights there.
JO 2010 will allow weights up to 159.4g for the Pro division.

Dave,
Was there a HOF disc made the year you were inducted? Trying to complete a set and would need this one if it was made.

Thx

Yes, a black Aviar P&A.

JO 2010 will allow weights up to 159.4g for the Pro division.

I believe they are changing the upper limit to 159.9g. No tolerance.

I believe they are changing the upper limit to 159.9g. No tolerance.
Dave D is correct.

Dave D is correct.

veganray is correct

Im sorry but what does HOF disc mean? hall of fame?

Hey Dave, do you know when the collector guide will come out for the usdgc rocs?

I believe they are changing the upper limit to 159.9g. No tolerance.

That change results in a 6.25% increase in impact force of a disc on a person. Going to full weight discs of 175g drivers would result in a 14.3% increase in impact force. (That is if the disc came to a complete stop at impact and I don't have enough time today to calculate the velocity after impact with rotation of the disc)

(The calculation that I used was Net Force = mass*velocity(final) - mass*velocity(initial) divided by time to stop (I know it is basic but I was in a hurry). In this case, time to stop doesn't matter becuase I was looking at a percentage of increase. It could be any time and the percentage stays the same but the faster it stops the more force it exerts. I also used 80mph as a velocity or 117ft/sec)

I guess I don't understand what the justification was for the JPDGA to increase weight. If their original reasoning for using 152g or less was safety then increasing the weight is not safer. They may have not seen any accidents over the years to justify the weight restriction so they allowed a heavier weight. If that is so, go ahead and allow full weight discs.

If it is to allow for a more variety of discs that can be molded at a lower weight without quality issues for disc manufacturers then I find that disturbing or pandering. I would consider a quality issue in this case to be discs, that when molded, fall in a range that is normally unsellable/low selling range (150-160). How many people do you know that says "Hey, I just got this new 154 driver!" No offense to the Innova team or other manufacturers but I hope this is not the case of the JPDGA bowing to the request of the manufacturers to sell more discs.

I wish I could read Japanese so that I could see a posting on their website to read the reasoning for the change. If someone knows, can you please fill us in.

I would consider a quality issue in this case to be discs, that when molded, fall in a range that is normally unsellable/low selling range (150-160). How many people do you know that says "Hey, I just got this new 154 driver!"

You must not play with a lot of older players. Others with slower arm speeds (women, youth, beginners and so on) are also digging the lighter discs. 150-160 is by no means unsellable nor of undesirable quality.

"Hey, I just got a new 158g R-Boss!" Now you've heard it. :)

Hi Dave-- you guys planning on doing dx bosses?

Dave,

Thanks for taking the time to answer all our questions, it's really cool.

Here's mine: I recently won a Innova Champion (Small Star) Stamped TeeRex, it's dated and numbered, what's the story behind this disc and others like it?

Thanks!

Hey Dave, do you know when the collector guide will come out for the usdgc rocs?

No, sorry. You should ask zonedriven.

Hi Dave-- you guys planning on doing dx bosses?

Not at this point.

Dave,

Thanks for taking the time to answer all our questions, it's really cool.

Here's mine: I recently won a Innova Champion (Small Star) Stamped TeeRex, it's dated and numbered, what's the story behind this disc and others like it?

Thanks!

I don't know the specific story, but Mark at discgolfvalues probably would. Generally, that would be a limited/first run collector disc.

Im sorry but what does HOF disc mean? hall of fame?

Yes.

You must not play with a lot of older players. Others with slower arm speeds (women, youth, beginners and so on) are also digging the lighter discs. 150-160 is by no means unsellable nor of undesirable quality.

"Hey, I just got a new 158g R-Boss!" Now you've heard it. :)

Yup, and I'm watching my mailbox for the 151-154g Katana that's on it's way. FYI, my go-to drivers are: 150g Sidewinder, 150g TeeBird, 154g Orc, 155g Valkyrie, 157g Beast, 162g Wraith, all Champion. I just turned 48 two weeks ago...

You must not play with a lot of older players. Others with slower arm speeds (women, youth, beginners and so on) are also digging the lighter discs. 150-160 is by no means unsellable nor of undesirable quality.

"Hey, I just got a new 158g R-Boss!" Now you've heard it. :)


My go to/favorite driver is a 160g R-pro Boss. I played in Japan last year so I have played with a lot of 150 class discs for about 6 months prior to going. My favorite disc of all time that I have stashed away for the 2010 JO (if I can make it) is a 150 Flat-Top Element X. My bag has several 150/160 discs in it. I'm also 34 years old. So it is not always "older" players. I've met Dr. Rick and Sylvia and they are the King and Queen of 150 plastic. I had a 500 yen bet with Sylvia for the final round of the JO on who would score better, her or me. She won by a stroke. So that would also put me in the beginner group too.

My point of the email was questioning the change from a 150 +/1 2g disc to 159.9. And I will stand behind that 170-175g discs outsell discs in the 152-160 range 50 to 1.

Dave
Is the Groove going to be continued to be produced and if so is there any possibility that it will be made in pro plastic. Or is there a chance that you are going to try and make something in the stability range between the katana and boss that doesnt have the groove on the underside.

I'm not sure, but I played last year and my impression is that their weight restriction is based in part on the crowded multi use parks that most of their tourneys are played in. Seeing that the Japan Open is played on an exclusive golf course that is closed to the public during the tournament play, it seems reasonable that the safety requirement be relaxed a few grams in consideration of the international players who don't throw 150g plastic much, making the transition a little easier.

Just a thought...

Dave
Is the Groove going to be continued to be produced and if so is there any possibility that it will be made in pro plastic. Or is there a chance that you are going to try and make something in the stability range between the katana and boss that doesnt have the groove on the underside.

The Groove will continue to be produced in Champion. We did try to mold in Pro, but they ended up too stable, like some of the Champion did before. We have no plans for any disc between the Boss and Katana, other than the Champion Groove. On the other hand, Pro Bosses and RPro Bosses are less high speed stable than Star or Champion. And the Katana will have a high speed stability range too where the most stable, (probably the Champion), will be closer to a -2, and the least stable (probably the Pro), will be the -3. Also, we will be making some Star Katanas in the Starlight, which has proven to be the most stable of all the plastics. Those may well be -1 or 0.

My go to/favorite driver is a 160g R-pro Boss. I played in Japan last year so I have played with a lot of 150 class discs for about 6 months prior to going. My favorite disc of all time that I have stashed away for the 2010 JO (if I can make it) is a 150 Flat-Top Element X. My bag has several 150/160 discs in it. I'm also 34 years old. So it is not always "older" players. I've met Dr. Rick and Sylvia and they are the King and Queen of 150 plastic. I had a 500 yen bet with Sylvia for the final round of the JO on who would score better, her or me. She won by a stroke. So that would also put me in the beginner group too.

My point of the email was questioning the change from a 150 +/1 2g disc to 159.9. And I will stand behind that 170-175g discs outsell discs in the 152-160 range 50 to 1.

Not making a point about which weight sells how may discs. Making a point towards your inference that there is some sort of underlying quality issue.

Not making a point about which weight sells how may discs. Making a point towards your inference that there is some sort of underlying quality issue.

My point is this: Innova, and other disc manufacturers, who try to mold 150 and sub-150 discs for a particular segment (the Asian market in this case because of the weight restriction) have a fallout of discs that weigh more than the previously allowable 152g. This is because of the difficulty in the molding process with the plastic that they use. That is why you do not see 150g Star because it has a chemical composition that does not allow it to be molded that light. Because of this fallout of discs weighing above the 152g limit I infered that there could be some pressure from the disc manufacturers to have the JO or the JPDGA raise the weight limit so that they have a broader range of "sellable" discs. The discs themselves do not have flaw or a "quality" issue. The flaw or quality issue is molding a disc in a particular plastic at a particular weight within an acceptable standard deviation. If I owned Innova or Discraft or Gateway, I would have a hard time wanting to mold a disc knowing that I couldn't easily sell 25% of the run. (I don't know if they have 25% fallout - it's just an example) If I had 25% "scrap" at my workplace, I would be out of business.

Today i took a trip to Camden park in IL with some people i play with often, after the round we ended up chucking some drives off a good size hill 90-110ft high trying to hit a parking lot around 650ft away, into a 15- 20mph head wind. I don't by any means have a cannon arm(430ft) but I ended up throwing the new star mako 176g hyzer flipped and straight and was equal with the corner of the lot. (I know the hole does not play 650ft but still with a head wind and a midrange,thats beasty.)

I just wanted to say the glide and straightness of this disc are unparalleled,it has no turn or fade when thrown with some power its just straight. I threw a buzz and a roc and didnt get anywhere near it. It also went farther the alot of my fairway and max drivers. only the wraith,destroyer,and pro line beast beat it.

I think you have just made one of my favorite midrange discs.

dang those testimonials might just have to try a mako
1st name overlap I can think of 'tween my passions...
the volkl Katana is a pretty sweet ski in its own right so good on ya...
(knew I heard that name before)
Description of V�lkl Katana Skis '09
WAS: $849.00
NOW: $593.95
The Katana features a top-end wood core and vertical sidewall construction, with two sheets of titanium. Although it has a 111 mm waist, the most unique feature on the Katana is the Powder Channel. The Powder Channel allows us to provide the ride quality of a swallow-tail design while still allowing the skier to ride switch. The Katana comes with a slight rocker for easy smearing in powder. Other details include the V�lkl logo edge anchors and honeycomb sidewall graphics with custom printing.

Salomon Fastback snowboard
Salomon Scream skis
Rossignol Blast skis
Salomon Wildfire ski pants
Dare2B Piranha jacket
Nordica Beast boots
The North Face Valkyrie jacket
K2 Sidewinder skis
Dynastar Contact Groove skis
Grandoe Wizard gloves
Rossignol Voodoo skis
Uvex Magic goggles
Rossignol Avenger skis
Dalbello Surge boots
Nordica Flash boots
K2 Force skis
I'm sure there are many more . . .

is there a date on a regular run release of the Katana?

is there a date on a regular run release of the Katana?

No date yet. The Pro will be the first release. The earliest release for the Pro would be mid December. If we can't make that, it would be some time after New Years.

Yes, a black Aviar P&A.

Dave,
Would you happen to know where I can find / buy one?

Dave,
Would you happen to know where I can find / buy one?

Sorry, no.

Hi dave was wondering if you have run any makos that wernt first run yet and if there is a difference seeing sometimes first runs fly a bit different than regular run discs, cause im lovin the mako

how does more/less dome affect dx rocs?
thanks

Hi dave was wondering if you have run any makos that wernt first run yet and if there is a difference seeing sometimes first runs fly a bit different than regular run discs, cause im lovin the mako

The Makos we are running now are the same material batch as the initial run, so they should have very few variations compared to runs with different material batches. But, yes, this is the second time we put the mold in.

how does more/less dome affect dx rocs?
thanks

DX is probably the easiest material to predict with respect to shape after molding. Generally, with DX you can expect a domier disc of the same mold to be a little less high speed stable, slightly slower, with slightly more glide.

I am a big fan of the aero, have you ever made or thought about making champ glow aeros?

I am a big fan of the aero, have you ever made or thought about making champ glow aeros?

If we haven't, we should have. Thanks for the suggestion.

If we haven't, we should have. Thanks for the suggestion.

That would be sweet!

Dave, I was sifting through some older discs of mine and ran across a star stamp spider I forgot I had. I remember hearing that these were some of the last CE discs made, and I've also heard these were champion. The one I have is a pearly baby blue, but my college roommate bought one at the same time that was a translucent purplish pink, also with the proto star stamp on it. I never thought these were CE discs, based on the CE discs that I'd run across at the time. The plastic seemed very similar to a champion pearly orc that I also had. Do you have any idea if these were in fact CE discs? I happened to get hooked on disc golf at that magical era of CE and 10x plastic...I just wish I knew enough at the time to amass a stockpile of it for later. Thanks.

Dave, I was sifting through some older discs of mine and ran across a star stamp spider I forgot I had. I remember hearing that these were some of the last CE discs made, and I've also heard these were champion. The one I have is a pearly baby blue, but my college roommate bought one at the same time that was a translucent purplish pink, also with the proto star stamp on it. I never thought these were CE discs, based on the CE discs that I'd run across at the time. The plastic seemed very similar to a champion pearly orc that I also had. Do you have any idea if these were in fact CE discs? I happened to get hooked on disc golf at that magical era of CE and 10x plastic...I just wish I knew enough at the time to amass a stockpile of it for later. Thanks.

If they were CE, the Spiders would be rather stiff. Probably pearlescent Champion.

Dave,

What are the main differences between the mako and coyote? I went out to see the flight differences and it really just seems that the champ. Plastic is the only thing making the coyote more stable, also my mako is marked cy is that just an error someone made?

Also has the champ. Classic Roc been decided upon yet?

Dave,

What are the main differences between the mako and coyote? I went out to see the flight differences and it really just seems that the champ. Plastic is the only thing making the coyote more stable, also my mako is marked cy is that just an error someone made?

Also has the champ. Classic Roc been decided upon yet?

The Coyote and Mako are different molds. The Coyote comes from the Rancho mold and the Mako comes from the San Marino mold. The Coyote is a little more high speed stable, and a little more low speed over stable. The Coyote is better in the wind and the Mako is better in the woods. The Mako has a straighter finish than the Coyote. Plastic and different runs can make a difference, but all of the above will hold true on average.

If the engraving on your Mako says San Marino, it is a Mako and it was a marking error.

We haven't made any decisions regarding the Champion Classic Roc yet.

Dave, I was sifting through some older discs of mine and ran across a star stamp spider I forgot I had. I remember hearing that these were some of the last CE discs made, and I've also heard these were champion. The one I have is a pearly baby blue, but my college roommate bought one at the same time that was a translucent purplish pink, also with the proto star stamp on it. I never thought these were CE discs, based on the CE discs that I'd run across at the time. The plastic seemed very similar to a champion pearly orc that I also had. Do you have any idea if these were in fact CE discs? I happened to get hooked on disc golf at that magical era of CE and 10x plastic...I just wish I knew enough at the time to amass a stockpile of it for later. Thanks.

It the plastic that was the "Pro" plastic between CE and Champion.

I was on the site comparing the mako to other discs and I came across the bulldog. I haven't seen one inquite a while, are you still making them?

I was on the site comparing the mako to other discs and I came across the bulldog. I haven't seen one inquite a while, are you still making them?

The Hydra and Bulldog are now basically the same. We dropped the Bulldog in favor of the Hydra.

It the plastic that was the "Pro" plastic between CE and Champion.

Ok, so around that same timeframe the Beast and I believe the Monster came out and I remember seeing these labeled as Pro on the stamp. This in between plastic was the stuff referred to as Candy, right? I vaguely remember a few other discs labeled as pro on the stamp...the firebird and maybe a few others.

Gremlin, Leopard

Banshee, Cheetah and Gazelle had KC Pro.

Firebird

KC Pro Teebird, JK Pro Valkyrie.

IMHO, that particular vintage (particularly the gummy variant) is the best plastic ever. I carry a gummy ProLine Leopard & a non-gummy ProLine Gremlin. I only have one gummy ProLine Gremlin, & it is really too unique to put into the rotation (151g w/ menacing Punisher-esque skull dye).

Yeah, I still throw my pro line gremlin. I agree with the fondness of that era plastic, but then again that's what was available when I got addicted to the sport. Kind of how most people have an affinity to the music their parents listened to when they were kids...it's just what you grew up with.

That plastic is sweet I still have one of those spiders in my bag and 2 on the wall. And all of my fairway drivers are CE people look at me funny when I show them that my bag has 6-7 CEs in it and old Rocs but hey the CE was what i got to know when they came out so I still throw em. Champion plastic got to inconsistent for me takes alot of time to find todays champion that I like Won't order them online but a CE disc no questions about them

As good as the plastic was there was still plenty of variations from run to run, and within them.

I picked up a mako and it is marked CY as someone else had posted before. The plastic ismuch softer than usual star, is it the grippy blend? If so, do you plan to run them in the normal more stiff star?

I saw a hydra that was stamped with an R-pro stamp. The plastic was very odd, very stiff, do you know what the deal is with the plastic? Is it the floatable plastic mixed with R-pro? Can you run drivers in the plastic, how does it hold up? I would love to get a leopard, teebird, or wraith in this plastic if it is durable. Thanks.

I was wondering why Innova doesnt mark thier disc in the mold. It is so annoying to get an old dis, or one that has the marking gone.
I mean discraft marks thier disc on the inside rim, so why doesnt innova.
It sure would take the guessing game out of figuring out what disc you have.
Thanks

I picked up a mako and it is marked CY as someone else had posted before. The plastic ismuch softer than usual star, is it the grippy blend? If so, do you plan to run them in the normal more stiff star?

--We will continue with the grippier Star, but may do some Champion at some point. They will probably be stiffer.--

I saw a hydra that was stamped with an R-pro stamp. The plastic was very odd, very stiff, do you know what the deal is with the plastic? Is it the floatable plastic mixed with R-pro? Can you run drivers in the plastic, how does it hold up? I would love to get a leopard, teebird, or wraith in this plastic if it is durable. Thanks.

The Hydras are now made with R-Pro and do float. However, they should not have been stiffer than DX Hydras were. Yes, we do run drivers in that plastic. It is not as durable as regular driver Pro, but more durable than DX.

I was wondering why Innova doesnt mark thier disc in the mold. It is so annoying to get an old dis, or one that has the marking gone.
I mean discraft marks thier disc on the inside rim, so why doesnt innova.
It sure would take the guessing game out of figuring out what disc you have.
Thanks

We don't mark them in the tool because many parts are used with more than one model. We also use many of the parts to mold discs, of other names for other companies.

We don't mark them in the tool because many parts are used with more than one model. We also use many of the parts to mold discs, of other names for other companies.

along these lines is something i've been meaning to ask... since it sounds like pen ink is here to stay would it be possible to mark the mold/weight on the rim somewhere and not in the center of the disc... or at least not for champ discs? Its great to get a nice crystal clear champ disc but only to find that you see someone scribbles from the underside. This was brought up by more than a few people @ USDGC w/ the collectors champ rocs. Skeet had a great design but you could see the ink from underneath that looks less than desirable. I would imagine this also comes up for people when they want to dye a design onto a clear disc.

The Hydras are now made with R-Pro and do float. However, they should not have been stiffer than DX Hydras were. Yes, we do run drivers in that plastic. It is not as durable as regular driver Pro, but more durable than DX.

These hydras must have been misstamped because this was not the R-pro that I know. Super stiff.

These hydras must have been misstamped because this was not the R-pro that I know. Super stiff.

If you are comparing DX Hydras to R-Pro Hydras, the R-Pro should be softer, not stiffer. If you are comparing R-Pro Hydras to R-Pro Aviars, Darts, or even bosses, I understand your confusion.

The Hydra is a massive disc. No matter what plastic we put in it, it will be stiffer than other discs made with the same plastic.

So I am impresssed with the mako. It is a cavity back roc, so forgiving. It has gone right into my bag after one field session. It. Does go a bit far for where I put it in my bag, how does the star dart compare because if it is similar I might get one of those instead. Well done with the mako, thank you.

So I am impresssed with the mako. It is a cavity back roc, so forgiving. It has gone right into my bag after one field session. It. Does go a bit far for where I put it in my bag, how does the star dart compare because if it is similar I might get one of those instead. Well done with the mako, thank you.

The Star Dart is similar, but slightly more stable and not quite as long for most throwers, I believe. The R-Pro Dart is almost the same as the Star Mako characteristic wise, and not quite as long. The Star Dart will hold up better in the wind than either of the others.

I have been throwing the new Champ Coyote, the Star Mako and the Star Dart together for a while now. And, I might also say that I switched from the R-Pro Dart, which I had been using for a while before that.

I am still debating whether I will need all three, though there is a subtle difference that does count on some holes. I have always been a fan of throwing my putter when I can, and I have always been able to throw my putter over 300 ft. so I haven't used mids that much before. I have tended to cover the middle ground with a Champion Viking or a Star Roadrunner, and had been using a Star Cro.

That being said, I find the Star Mako to have the softest line on a hyzer, the easiest to hyzer flip, and the easiest to maintain a medium high turnover and the easiest to throw straight in a confined fairway like the woods. I find the new Champ Coyote to be the best of the three in the wind and the most reliable, but the Star Dart is not too bad either, is a very good putter, and much better than the R-Pro in the wind, though the R-Pro is a slightly better long range putter.

So, a shorter answer to your question might be, that the Star Dart is almost as long, is slightly more stable, and is a good putter. However, if you don't like to throw hard with the softer grippier Star plastic that the Dart is made of, you should pass on it. I like it, and have no problem with backhand drives. Side arm is another matter. It is too soft for side arm drives, at least for me.

I will probably check it out and see what happens. From my field test the mako went about 20 feet further then my rocs at the same angle because of the extra glide. It was however mucheasier to get straight and is equally good for sweeping hyzers and consistant turnovers.
I'm not a huge fan of soft plastic but we will see what happens with the dart. Thanks dave.

I will probably check it out and see what happens. From my field test the mako went about 20 feet further then my rocs at the same angle because of the extra glide. It was however mucheasier to get straight and is equally good for sweeping hyzers and consistant turnovers.
I'm not a huge fan of soft plastic but we will see what happens with the dart. Thanks dave.

I was wondering why Innova doesnt mark thier disc in the mold. It is so annoying to get an old dis, or one that has the marking gone.
I mean discraft marks thier disc on the inside rim, so why doesnt innova.
It sure would take the guessing game out of figuring out what disc you have.
Thanks

I, and several other players, absolutely DESPISE Discraft's interior rim raised mark, and DO NOT like gripping on it, nor having to adjust our grip to miss it.

hey just thinking outloud. but Xcaliber is a great name for a disc, and BeoWolf was the original xcaliber story so i think that would be a cool disc name...

hey just thinking outloud. but Xcaliber is a great name for a disc, and BeoWolf was the original xcaliber story so i think that would be a cool disc name...

... and Grendel too,....

I, and several other players, absolutely DESPISE Discraft's interior rim raised mark, and DO NOT like gripping on it, nor having to adjust our grip to miss it.

that could pose a problem for me as well... (depending on the location of the rim mark) i have a little case of o.c.d. where the stamp must be facing me as if i was just looking at it to read it. if the rim of my disc has a scratch that affects the comfort of my grip, where i can't read the stamp perfectly, i simply take the disc out of my bag.

had that problem with a couple of discraft discs that i tried. the mark on the rim was in just the exact wrong place where "I" couldn't throw it.

however, ink on the rim would be no different from where a lot of people mark their names, and that would work out just fine. especially when people are trying to dye a disc, or for just clean looks.

what's the deal with the "roger"? did i miss that post or were people on dgrus just toying with us?

Dave,

I just picked up 2 new Champ Valks. Both are made of the opaque champ plastic and they feel quite similar. However one is marked with the 5x JK stamp and the other a standard champ stamp. Looking at them nose to nose the one with the standard stamp has a significantly beefier nose (spacer?). Have there been tweaks with the Valk mold, and if so what's the story? Thanks as always.

Dave,

I just picked up 2 new Champ Valks. Both are made of the opaque champ plastic and they feel quite similar. However one is marked with the 5x JK stamp and the other a standard champ stamp. Looking at them nose to nose the one with the standard stamp has a significantly beefier nose (spacer?). Have there been tweaks with the Valk mold, and if so what's the story? Thanks as always.

I can't explain the difference. The Valk has not been tweaked. The only think I can come up with as a possibility is a mis-marked and mis-stamped Viking.
That would explain the beefier nose. The mark for a Valk is supposed to be VL and the mark for a Viking is supposed to be VK. We used to use VK for Valkyries but had to change when we introduced the Viking.

i have a little case of o.c.d. where the stamp must be facing me as if i was just looking at it to read it.

that is why God invented acetone.... i take all the stamps off my discs.

that is why God invented acetone.... i take all the stamps off my discs.

You can still see the ghost stamp. I used to have this issue too.

Whats the story on these test run gummy champ roc's i'm seeing on ebay. Can you get heavier weights? So far these are only 160.

As always, thank you Dave!

Those are a extremely limited run, no more. They will be pricy when the bids end.

Whats the story on these test run gummy champ roc's i'm seeing on ebay. Can you get heavier weights? So far these are only 160.

As always, thank you Dave!

We tested a material using the Rancho Roc mold. The material was a gummy Champion type putter material. The test was short. Only 10 at 160 and one mixed result X-part at 175. There are no others. This is not a material we were intending to use with Rocs. Unless the USDGC wants some of these for their Roc collectors, we will not make any more. These are being used as fundraisers for So Cal.

hi dave,
i was going through some boxes of older stuff and found that i have a 7x kc gazelle in gold plastic- any ideas on how many of them may be out there? thanks!

We tested a material using the Rancho Roc mold. The material was a gummy Champion type putter material. The test was short. Only 10 at 160 and one mixed result X-part at 175. There are no others. This is not a material we were intending to use with Rocs. Unless the USDGC wants some of these for their Roc collectors, we will not make any more. These are being used as fundraisers for So Cal.

So is this a different material then the japan open "gummy" champion Rocs thats been around for quite some time?

hi dave,
i was going through some boxes of older stuff and found that i have a 7x kc gazelle in gold plastic- any ideas on how many of them may be out there? thanks!

I don't remember the gold plastic. Sorry.

So is this a different material then the japan open "gummy" champion Rocs thats been around for quite some time?

Yes, this is a different material that could not produce 150 gm discs. This plastic may be able to produce 180gm gummy Rocs, but we didn't try that.

Yes, this is a different material that could not produce 150 gm discs. This plastic may be able to produce 180gm gummy Rocs, but we didn't try that.

180 gummy rocs? gross.

180 gummy rocs? gross.

They would fill the gap in my dwindling stack of 177 - 180 gram soft 11x KC Pro Rocs....

holy shiit

http://completed.shop.ebay.com/discgolfvalues/m.html?LH_Complete=1&_fln=1&_ipg=25&_trksid=p3911.c0.m283&_rdc=1

I stopped at 160

Thats insane

$818 for one golf disc. And this is a recession??

Do you plan to run makos in stiffer star or champion plastic?

Do you plan to run makos in stiffer star or champion plastic?

Not in stiffer Star, but probably yes to Champion. We haven't made a decision yet.

Dave, don't take offense to my questions, but what is the point of doing a test run of discs if no-one is going to throw them first of all being outlandishly expensive and limited to 11 possible people? Were they really a "test run"?

What really is being tested?
A) How the disc plays in this configuration
B) ...or how much people are willing to pay for a 'limited' run disc?

I am all for growing/ supporting the sport I love by purchasing fund raiser discs, but really?

Dave, on another completely separate note, why did the champion boss go from stable/understable to overstable? Why is the original configuration not being made available? It seems the secondary market of collectors have these discs and those of us who loved how they ***originally came out of the mold, yet cannot afford $40 to $50*** are left wondering, why?

Again, I am not trying to anger anyone, but i have been wondering about this question since literally a week after the boss came out... Cheers to all...

Dave, don't take offense to my questions, but what is the point of doing a test run of discs if no-one is going to throw them first of all being outlandishly expensive and limited to 11 possible people? Were they really a "test run"?

What really is being tested?
A) How the disc plays in this configuration
B) ...or how much people are willing to pay for a 'limited' run disc?

I am all for growing/ supporting the sport I love by purchasing fund raiser discs, but really?

Dave, on another completely separate note, why did the champion boss go from stable/understable to overstable? Why is the original configuration not being made available? It seems the secondary market of collectors have these discs and those of us who loved how they ***originally came out of the mold, yet cannot afford $40 to $50*** are left wondering, why?

Again, I am not trying to anger anyone, but i have been wondering about this question since literally a week after the boss came out... Cheers to all...

Regarding test runs:

Plastic manufacturers often supply samples of materials to test. Results of these tests determines whether the materials are suitable and whether they will produce a quality product in the desired weight range. Tests may produce zero "usable" discs to a few dozen. Samples undergo various tests and generally end up being recycled or most often sitting in Dave's office taking up room. A small sample batch of materials just happened to be tested while the Roc was being manufactured and produced the "test run" of 160 Gummy Champion Rocs.

Regarding test runs:
Tests may produce zero "usable" discs to a few dozen. Samples undergo various tests and generally end up being recycled or most often sitting in Dave's office taking up room.

I can help Dave to get rid of some samples , just send them to me....... ;-P

Dave, don't take offense to my questions, but what is the point of doing a test run of discs if no-one is going to throw them first of all being outlandishly expensive and limited to 11 possible people? Were they really a "test run"?

What really is being tested?
A) How the disc plays in this configuration
B) ...or how much people are willing to pay for a 'limited' run disc?

I am all for growing/ supporting the sport I love by purchasing fund raiser discs, but really?

Dave, on another completely separate note, why did the champion boss go from stable/understable to overstable? Why is the original configuration not being made available? It seems the secondary market of collectors have these discs and those of us who loved how they ***originally came out of the mold, yet cannot afford $40 to $50*** are left wondering, why?

Again, I am not trying to anger anyone, but i have been wondering about this question since literally a week after the boss came out... Cheers to all...

As far as your first question goes, there are three basic types of tests. There is a test market, and a material/mold test, and flight tests of certain mold/material tests. The test you were referring to was simply a material test. No market test or flight tests were planned other than the immediate flight tests on site by myself and Steve Wisecup. The material passed the molding and initial flight tests, but was deemed unsuitable for Rocs as it was too gummy. The test samples sat in my office with no place to go until I thought of letting Suzette use them for SoCal fundraising. She did.

I have no idea why people paid what they did for these 160gm gummy Rocs. 160gms is not a particularly popular weight. These cannot even be used for the Japan Open. Champion Rocs are ordered by the USDGC to be almost all at top weight class in a stiffer Champion plastic. All the money generated went to SoCal, not Innova. Suzette paid Innova the same discount CFR fee that other tournaments pay.

As for the initial Bosses: We started running Champion Bosses in a softer material that produced a huge amount of rejects due to flight plate warping. We subsequently changed the plastic mix, so that would not occur. Since then, we have learned to use the softer mix better such that we can run far fewer rejects, but we have not tried it in the Boss since then. The second Champion mix produced a more stable Boss that our team was requesting. We decided to stay with that mix and try to make the Star Boss a little less over stable.

I believe we can now run the Champion Boss in the softer material, but I am not sure if it is necessary with the introduction of the Katana.

As far as your first question goes, there are three basic types of tests. There is a test market, and a material/mold test, and flight tests of certain mold/material tests. The test you were referring to was simply a material test. No market test or flight tests were planned other than the immediate flight tests on site by myself and Steve Wisecup. The material passed the molding and initial flight tests, but was deemed unsuitable for Rocs as it was too gummy. The test samples sat in my office with no place to go until I thought of letting Suzette use them for SoCal fundraising. She did.

I have no idea why people paid what they did for these 160gm gummy Rocs. 160gms is not a particularly popular weight. These cannot even be used for the Japan Open. Champion Rocs are ordered by the USDGC to be almost all at top weight class in a stiffer Champion plastic. All the money generated went to SoCal, not Innova. Suzette paid Innova the same discount CFR fee that other tournaments pay.

As for the initial Bosses: We started running Champion Bosses in a softer material that produced a huge amount of rejects due to flight plate warping. We subsequently changed the plastic mix, so that would not occur. Since then, we have learned to use the softer mix better such that we can run far fewer rejects, but we have not tried it in the Boss since then. The second Champion mix produced a more stable Boss that our team was requesting. We decided to stay with that mix and try to make the Star Boss a little less over stable.

I believe we can now run the Champion Boss in the softer material, but I am not sure if it is necessary with the introduction of the Katana.

Dave, Thank you for your detailed response. I have little <em>Plastics Manufacturing</em> experience, and found this answer to be helpful.

You are right, I have personally seen the new champ katanas which physically seem awfully close to my FR Boss (Although i understand that these are described as speed 13 sidewinders, which is nothing like the FR Boss). However, these are ONLY available as a fundraiser disc, Initially priced for 25.00, sold out over at Herodisc. The good news - I can get one through Marks site, discgolfvalues, at a real steal... 39.95! When would it be released for standard issue/ at a reasonable price?

Dave, Thank you for your detailed response. I have little Plastics Manufacturing experience, and found this answer to be helpful.

You are right, I have personally seen the new champ katanas which physically seem awfully close to my FR Boss (Although i understand that these are described as speed 13 sidewinders, which is nothing like the FR Boss). However, these are ONLY available as a fundraiser disc, Initially priced for 25.00, sold out over at Herodisc. The good news - I can get one through Marks site, discgolfvalues, at a real steal... 39.95! When would it be released for standard issue/ at a reasonable price?

I just checked Hero and they have Katanas right now or maybe the site is not up to date. I went as far as starting checkout and they were still in my shopping cart.

Dave, Thank you for your detailed response. I have little Plastics Manufacturing experience, and found this answer to be helpful.

You are right, I have personally seen the new champ katanas which physically seem awfully close to my FR Boss (Although i understand that these are described as speed 13 sidewinders, which is nothing like the FR Boss). However, these are ONLY available as a fundraiser disc, Initially priced for 25.00, sold out over at Herodisc. The good news - I can get one through Marks site, discgolfvalues, at a real steal... 39.95! When would it be released for standard issue/ at a reasonable price?

The Pro (not R-Pro) Katana will be released about Jan 10. Star Katanas will be released some time after the Pro Worlds Star Katanas are sold out. There are two types of Champion Katanas. The more stable stiffer Katana will probably stay in CFR. The softer version will probably be released shortly after the first of the year, I hope.

Have these world's fundraiser Katanas been run yet? If so, how does the stability compare to the Pro and Champ?

Have these world's fundraiser Katanas been run yet? If so, how does the stability compare to the Pro and Champ?

The Stars are more stable than the Pro. I'm not sure how to compare the Champion yet. I have thrown the Champion a bit now, but only threw the Star once or twice so far.

The Stars are more stable than the Pro. I'm not sure how to compare the Champion yet. I have thrown the Champion a bit now, but only threw the Star once or twice so far.

Is there a release date on those fundraisers yet? Will there be multiple stamps, like the Worlds Monarchs last year?

Is there a release date on those fundraisers yet? Will there be multiple stamps, like the Worlds Monarchs last year?

I hope the release will be within a couple of weeks. We have already produced the necessary discs. It's just a matter of stamping and shipping at this point, I believe. I have only seen one piece of art at this point, and I don't know what they are planning for different stamps or not right now.

Dave,

I have recently had the opportunity to test many Bosses in some very windy conditions. I have found that the stiffest, most stable heavy Star Bosses hold up better in the wind than the most stable Champions.

Here's my question: With the release of the Katana, will there be an effort to polarize the stability of the two so that Katanas have a straighter, more understable flight character and Bosses have a more reliably overstable character? I would love to be able to get more overstable, stiff, heavy star Bosses and just throw the Katana for my straighter distance slot. Many Bosses seem just stable enough to be good for hyzers in zero wind, but fail to hold their line in a little headwind. Thanks.

I can't explain the difference. The Valk has not been tweaked. The only think I can come up with as a possibility is a mis-marked and mis-stamped Viking.
That would explain the beefier nose. The mark for a Valk is supposed to be VL and the mark for a Viking is supposed to be VK. We used to use VK for Valkyries but had to change when we introduced the Viking.

Dave,

First of all I love the Valk in the opaque Champion Plastic. It flies fast, far, and straight at high speeds. Anyway, after I got the two and one was different I went back to the store and examined a couple dozen of the new opaque champ plastic Valkyries. It seemed they were split nearly in half across 3 colors between the true Valks and the Viking look-alikes. The molds look similar enough that I could see them looking different if they were in different plastic blends, but these were all the same opaque Champion. Could several runs of Vikings have been mismarked on the back as VL and stamped with the Valkyrie stamp? I'm just wondering because I'm a little hesitant to order any online when I might get Vikings instead of Valks. Thanks as always.

Dave,

I have recently had the opportunity to test many Bosses in some very windy conditions. I have found that the stiffest, most stable heavy Star Bosses hold up better in the wind than the most stable Champions.

Here's my question: With the release of the Katana, will there be an effort to polarize the stability of the two so that Katanas have a straighter, more understable flight character and Bosses have a more reliably overstable character? I would love to be able to get more overstable, stiff, heavy star Bosses and just throw the Katana for my straighter distance slot. Many Bosses seem just stable enough to be good for hyzers in zero wind, but fail to hold their line in a little headwind. Thanks.

The Katanas won't be stable in any plasitic. Both Champion and Star are still unstable. The soft Champion and Pro are fairly easy to turn. The only overlap, that might occur is between the most stable runs of Katanas and the least stable runs of Bosses. I suppose the original soft Champion Bosses could overlap and maybe the Pro Bosses with the most stable Katanas. (Not including R-Pro).

Dave,

First of all I love the Valk in the opaque Champion Plastic. It flies fast, far, and straight at high speeds. Anyway, after I got the two and one was different I went back to the store and examined a couple dozen of the new opaque champ plastic Valkyries. It seemed they were split nearly in half across 3 colors between the true Valks and the Viking look-alikes. The molds look similar enough that I could see them looking different if they were in different plastic blends, but these were all the same opaque Champion. Could several runs of Vikings have been mismarked on the back as VL and stamped with the Valkyrie stamp? I'm just wondering because I'm a little hesitant to order any online when I might get Vikings instead of Valks. Thanks as always.

Yes, that type of hot stamping error could occur, unfortunately. The Valkyrie used to be marked VK, as the Viking is now.

I have two max weight x-out Chanp Katanas and I'm throwing the bright green 175. This disc is great! I have an overstable Champ max weight purple boss in my bag and an understable Champ max weight light blue boss also(both first run) and the Katana flies like my beat up blue boss straight out of the box. I think the boss is still slightly faster but the Katana flies beautifully even into a headwind(taking into account aim/direction for turn over). You guys have made another great disc and I applaud you for continuing to try new things and not just settling for what's already been produced. Look forward to being able to get this disc on a regular basis. Thanks Innova!

Hi Dave. I love the R-Pro P&A Aviar, and wonder When you are going to produce an R-Pro JK Aviar? I heard some chatter about it and recall you think it won't be as soft as the P&A, but I would like to try it. The recent JKs aren't soft anymore. Thanks.

Hi Dave. I love the R-Pro P&A Aviar, and wonder When you are going to produce an R-Pro JK Aviar? I heard some chatter about it and recall you think it won't be as soft as the P&A, but I would like to try it. The recent JKs aren't soft anymore. Thanks.

Hi Joe,
We tried running them as soft as the P&A, but it wouldn't work properly, so we had to make them a little stiffer. Sorry.

Dave, are they being made and available yet? Also how does the R-Pro Hydra compare to the R-Pro Aviar P&A? I know this is a Bulldog mold. Should be very stable, but is it soft like the R-Pro P&A? Thanks.

As far as your first question goes, there are three basic types of tests. There is a test market, and a material/mold test, and flight tests of certain mold/material tests. The test you were referring to was simply a material test. No market test or flight tests were planned other than the immediate flight tests on site by myself and Steve Wisecup. The material passed the molding and initial flight tests, but was deemed unsuitable for Rocs as it was too gummy. The test samples sat in my office with no place to go until I thought of letting Suzette use them for SoCal fundraising. She did.

I have no idea why people paid what they did for these 160gm gummy Rocs. 160gms is not a particularly popular weight. These cannot even be used for the Japan Open. Champion Rocs are ordered by the USDGC to be almost all at top weight class in a stiffer Champion plastic. All the money generated went to SoCal, not Innova. Suzette paid Innova the same discount CFR fee that other tournaments pay.

As for the initial Bosses: We started running Champion Bosses in a softer material that produced a huge amount of rejects due to flight plate warping. We subsequently changed the plastic mix, so that would not occur. Since then, we have learned to use the softer mix better such that we can run far fewer rejects, but we have not tried it in the Boss since then. The second Champion mix produced a more stable Boss that our team was requesting. We decided to stay with that mix and try to make the Star Boss a little less over stable.

I believe we can now run the Champion Boss in the softer material, but I am not sure if it is necessary with the introduction of the Katana.

Well...I would have loved to have a 160g gummy Champion Roc - I'm constantly on the lookout for a disc that comes close to just that. I currently have a handful of 150g Japan Open Rocs in Champion, Star and Special Blend that I am rotating in and out of my bag, trying to decide which I like the best. But budget-wise, I can't come close to those e-Bay prices. Yikes.

Dave, are they being made and available yet? Also how does the R-Pro Hydra compare to the R-Pro Aviar P&A? I know this is a Bulldog mold. Should be very stable, but is it soft like the R-Pro P&A? Thanks.

No. Its one of the stiffer discs out there.

Dave, are they being made and available yet? Also how does the R-Pro Hydra compare to the R-Pro Aviar P&A? I know this is a Bulldog mold. Should be very stable, but is it soft like the R-Pro P&A? Thanks.


The latest run of JKs should be out in distribution. The R-Pro Hydra is softer than the DX Hydra, but nowhere near the R-P&A.

Hi Dave--of what has been run recently, what weights/plastics are the most (over)stable bosses? when can we expect the other speed 13 disc that is more (over)stable than the boss?
thanks as always

Hi Dave--of what has been run recently, what weights/plastics are the most (over)stable bosses? when can we expect the other speed 13 disc that is more (over)stable than the boss?
thanks as always

The most over stable Bosses have been the Starlight, from my experience. There were some light blue that were way over stable. Starlight produces Bosses around 166 to 168gms. Anything over that is probably not Starlight.

Not sure when we will produce the XCaliber type Boss.

Hey Dave, any plans to run the Aviar Woodstock in a white plastic? I love the grip of the disc and how it sticks to the chains but that cream color(maybe from the wood particles) blends in with the ground to much. I know you made a redwood but a nice bright white with the wood particles would be great. Thanks!

question about the "big bead" aviar...

i've thrown kc pro aviars and star aviar drivers, but a buddy of mine had two champion aviars with a "big bead"(by far my favorite putter of all). i've been told that the kc pro aviar and aviar driver are the big bead mold, but those beads are small in comparison to the big bead that i'm talking about. i tried the champs out but i had to give them back. and i can't seem to find them anywhere.

the closest i've found so far is the stiff glow wizard from gateway. are there any "big bead" champion aviars in production, and if not, will there be? i'd like to go back to them.

question about the "big bead" aviar...

i've thrown kc pro aviars and star aviar drivers, but a buddy of mine had two champion aviars with a "big bead"(by far my favorite putter of all). i've been told that the kc pro aviar and aviar driver are the big bead mold, but those beads are small in comparison to the big bead that i'm talking about. i tried the champs out but i had to give them back. and i can't seem to find them anywhere.

the closest i've found so far is the stiff glow wizard from gateway. are there any "big bead" champion aviars in production, and if not, will there be? i'd like to go back to them.

I may be wrong, but its my understanding that there are 3 different bottom parts to the aviar molds and 2 tops.

Big Head and a Small Head molds for the top halves

Big Bead, Small Bead, and No Bead molds for the bottom halves.

Current Aviar P&A (Dx, Star) are Small Head/No Bead
(Current Millennium Omega P&A uses a slightly beaded version that is still considered no bead)

Current Aviar Drivers (DX, Pro, KC, JK, Star) are Big Head/Small Bead

The old Champion Ken Climo Signature Aviar Putters were Big Head/Big Bead - (Say - 11x World Champion)

Current Aviar Drivers (DX, Pro, KC, JK, Star) are Big Head/Small Bead

The old Champion Ken Climo Signature Aviar Putters were Big Head/Big Bead - (Say - 11x World Champion)

just went and checked... my kc pro aviar is a 12x... so i need to find an 11x... any place other than ebay?

just went and checked... my kc pro aviar is a 12x... so i need to find an 11x... any place other than ebay?

PM Sent with 4 11x's to choose from.

Not in stiffer Star, but probably yes to Champion. We haven't made a decision yet.

Stiff champ or champ glo would be awesome.

Do you find that more people enjoy softer or harder plastic? What do you find most top players prefer?

Hey Dave, any plans to run the Aviar Woodstock in a white plastic? I love the grip of the disc and how it sticks to the chains but that cream color(maybe from the wood particles) blends in with the ground to much. I know you made a redwood but a nice bright white with the wood particles would be great. Thanks!


I was worried about the blending color, but for the first go around, it was a neat novelty I think. We will do it again in other colors; possibly white. Thanks for the feedback.

Stiff champ or champ glo would be awesome.

Do you find that more people enjoy softer or harder plastic? What do you find most top players prefer?

Good questions. I really don't know the ratio of recreational players that prefer the softer tackier plastic, but it is much higher than the top players. I believe most of the top players prefer stiffer over softer. I have heard many players complain about the movement of the plastic in their grips when they throw softer. I believe it's a distraction that makes them feel less confident when they are throwing.

if you need hard stiff plastic to be grippy, that is an easy fix.

take some windex (or preferred knock-off) and wipe down your disc and your hand. windex will pull all of the oils off of both creating a very grippy surface.

then just keep a rag or towel wet with windex and may even a small squirt bottle with you (the kind for cleaning glasses)

if you need hard stiff plastic to be grippy, that is an easy fix.

take some windex (or preferred knock-off) and wipe down your disc and your hand. windex will pull all of the oils off of both creating a very grippy surface.

then just keep a rag or towel wet with windex and may even a small squirt bottle with you (the kind for cleaning glasses)

I will try that. Thanks.

Also, you can just put a little acetone on a cotton ball and wipe down the surface. Be careful. It removes stamps.

isn't acetone carcinogenic?

isn't acetone carcinogenic?

It isn't. It's mostly harmless. I'm pretty sure it even occurs in the body naturally.

The reason I don't like softer plastic is because the flex of the plastic during my pull makes it very hard to get a consistant release. I have had this feeling a couple times with my mako and it worries me. I love the flight but it is pointless if I don't know where it is coming off my hand. I have released early on a few occasions. The flights weren't exactly what I wanted but the forgiving flight still left me with putts. I get afraid to throw it on a very tight fairway even though it would be sweet for tight fairways. Any plans for a DX run? Sorry to bring it up again but a stiffer run of makos would make atleast one player happy.

On a side note, the newer ecostar is awesome!

The reason I don't like softer plastic is because the flex of the plastic during my pull makes it very hard to get a consistant release. I have had this feeling a couple times with my mako and it worries me. I love the flight but it is pointless if I don't know where it is coming off my hand. I have released early on a few occasions. The flights weren't exactly what I wanted but the forgiving flight still left me with putts. I get afraid to throw it on a very tight fairway even though it would be sweet for tight fairways. Any plans for a DX run? Sorry to bring it up again but a stiffer run of makos would make atleast one player happy.

On a side note, the newer ecostar is awesome!

We are planning on running Champion Makos, which should be firmer. No plans for DX, at this point.

Dave,
What's the schedule on Echostar Teebirds?

IMHO, floppier discs merely accentuate an existing problem, namely off-axis torque. If you pull perfectly cleanly, a piece of sailcloth won't wobble during the pull, but slice cleanly through the air. Only when off-axis torque is introduced does it then deform unpredictably & effect release. Maybe the stiffer discs seem "better", as their rigidity resists the deformation caused by OAT & release feels the same despite it. Soft, floppy discs may be good training tools to diagnose & treat this flaw.

IMHO, floppier discs merely accentuate an existing problem, namely off-axis torque. If you pull perfectly cleanly, a piece of sailcloth won't wobble during the pull, but slice cleanly through the air. Only when off-axis torque is introduced does it then deform unpredictably & effect release. Maybe the stiffer discs seem "better", as their rigidity resists the deformation caused by OAT & release feels the same despite it. Soft, floppy discs may be good training tools to diagnose & treat this flaw.

It isn't so much a wobble as a deformation. If you take a stiff disc and hold the rim on each side and pull outward the disc does not change shape too much. But if youdo the same thing with floppy plastic the disc decomes out of shape. I like to drive with mids and putters so I put a good deal of torque on them. The mako just doesn't compare with KC rocs and aviars when it comes to firmness.

Looking forward to champ makos, thanks dave.

Dave,
What's the schedule on Echostar Teebirds?

We have run them. I don't know where they went right now.

OK. I am eager to find out if any were shipped to Innova East.

Thanks!

Also, you can just put a little acetone on a cotton ball and wipe down the surface. Be careful. It removes stamps.

Acetone is a carcinogen. says so right on my bottle. i do use it to remove stamps off of all my discs before i throw them.

the reason acetone works to make a disc easier to grip for a short period of time is that the acetone will "eat" the top layer of plastic and leave behind some residue from that chemical reaction. As soon as it gets dirty, you lose that grip and cleaning the disc just doesnt seem to restore that grip either.

with the windex though, its not harsh to the plastic and every time you wipe your disc down you are cleaning it. same goes for you hand. when you wipe down your disc, you can or will inadvertently strip the oils off your throwing hand. you now have a grip on grip situation. trust me, you will have plenty of grip. good thing is that this works when its wet out too. i have had this save me a few times when playing in the rain. oil and water dont mix. however, with all the oils gone, you still can grip a damp/slightly wet disc without it feeling like its trying to slip out of your hand.

I once used Goo Gone to remove the price sticker on the bottom on an R-Pro Aviar. Wow, I won't do that again. Not only did it remove the sticker, but the petroleum based product started to eat up the disc.

Acetone is a carcinogen. says so right on my bottle.

I once wore a t-shirt with that read, "I'm with Stupid ->", so I kept looking but I never saw anyone :)

It may say that on the bottle, but there is no evidence that it is carcinogenic. It could be that some other ingredient in the bottle is the culprit.

http://www.tripledisc.com/preview/msdgc/stupid.jpg

if you need hard stiff plastic to be grippy, that is an easy fix.

take some windex (or preferred knock-off) and wipe down your disc and your hand. windex will pull all of the oils off of both creating a very grippy surface.

then just keep a rag or towel wet with windex and may even a small squirt bottle with you (the kind for cleaning glasses)


Tested this out today all I have to say is THANX and WOW who woulda known. Works well I purposely got my disc wet sorta dried the disc still moist then hit it with a towel with windex on it and It was like gripping a dry disc Tacky Disc and fingers real nice

Acetone is a carcinogen. says so right on my bottle. i do use it to remove stamps off of all my discs before i throw them.


This is very misleading. What it most likely says is "Group D carcinogen", which is actually a designation for chemicals that have "inadequate evidence to classify" them as a carcinogen.

We have run them. I don't know where they went right now.

2nd this.. Mark at DGV? Come on..

2nd this.. Mark at DGV? Come on..

Where alot of stuff seems to end up...

I've got my 2 Champion Katana's One for the bag with Blems and One for the wall.

This is very misleading. What it most likely says is "Group D carcinogen", which is actually a designation for chemicals that have "inadequate evidence to classify" them as a carcinogen.

but for which their is sufficient evidence to warrant caution from anyone wishing to reduce their chances of getting cancer ;)

IMHO, floppier discs merely accentuate an existing problem, namely off-axis torque. If you pull perfectly cleanly, a piece of sailcloth won't wobble during the pull, but slice cleanly through the air. Only when off-axis torque is introduced does it then deform unpredictably & effect release. Maybe the stiffer discs seem "better", as their rigidity resists the deformation caused by OAT & release feels the same despite it. Soft, floppy discs may be good training tools to diagnose & treat this flaw.

sounds like you are onto something here to me. I love floppy discs but come from an Ultimate background where off-axis torque yields crappy throws and diminished D. I can throw a very floppy JK Pro Aviar-X every bit as far and true as a stiff KC Pro Aviar.

but, then again, i am a card carrying member of the anti off-axis torque association (AOATA)...

dave when will the katanas be release for prouction and it will be pro first run right

dave when will the katanas be release for prouction and it will be pro first run right


turkey overdose? :)

dave when will the katanas be release for prouction and it will be pro first run right

The first Katana general release will be early January. Pro will be released at this point. Star will be available through Worlds fundraising, in about one week. Small amounts of R-pro (no release planned), pro, and Champion have been available for Japan Open fundraising through Herodisc.usa.

FYI So far, testing indicates the following order of stability from least to most high speed stable: R-Pro, Pro, softer Champion, firmer Champion, Star.

FYI So far, testing indicates the following order of stability from least to most high speed stable: R-Pro, Pro, softer Champion, firmer Champion, Star.[/QUOTE]

How wil we know the difference between softer and firmer? I like the Japan Open version. It's a sweet disc.

Do the Eco Teebirds have the new Eco sticker on them or are they marked any differently? Were any of them ran in the green eco?

I'm excited to see/throw the Echo T-birds. Any idea if they came out flat or domey?
Thanks!

Do the Eco Teebirds have the new Eco sticker on them or are they marked any differently? Were any of them ran in the green eco?

Yes, they have the stickers on them. Green, yellow, and orange. Maybe one other color.

Nice!

Any chance of some echo PDs?

Thanks, Dave

Yes, they have the stickers on them. Green, yellow, and orange. Maybe one other color.

Any chance of getting some to innova east? I would love to try a few out.

Im not sure if this has already been asked but has there been any talk or production of echo star bosses?

I'm excited to see/throw the Echo T-birds. Any idea if they came out flat or domey?
Thanks!

Definitively not flat. slightly domey.

Nice!

Any chance of some echo PDs?

Thanks, Dave


Probably not.

Any chance of getting some to innova east? I would love to try a few out.

Im not sure if this has already been asked but has there been any talk or production of echo star bosses?

Innova East will get some for sure.

I am not sure if Echo Star is possible with Bosses. It might be too heavy a material for Bosses.

The first Katana general release will be early January. Pro will be released at this point. Star will be available through Worlds fundraising, in about one week. Small amounts of R-pro (no release planned), pro, and Champion have been available for Japan Open fundraising through Herodisc.usa.

FYI So far, testing indicates the following order of stability from least to most high speed stable: R-Pro, Pro, softer Champion, firmer Champion, Star.

Where will the star be available?

Where will the star be available?

I don't know specifically, but both East and West coast offices will be distributing them to dealers who are interested.

I don't know specifically, but both East and West coast offices will be distributing them to dealers who are interested.

The Pro Worlds Star Katanas are being released today to dealers.

How do they compare to Champion? I can deal with the champion ones, but the pro was way too flippy...

How do they compare to Champion? I can deal with the champion ones, but the pro was way too flippy...

The Star are more stable than the Pro. I believe the heaviest Star are fairly stable, at least the ones I have thrown. The 168 and 171 g Star did turn somewhat, but not as much as the Pro. The two 175g Star, that I threw were impressively stable, with very little turn.

I believe they may be comparable to the firmer Champion, but are definitely more stable than the softer Champion. If you are looking for more stable, you should probably stay with firmer and heavier Champion and Star.

Dave
I have never seen 150 class I Dyed discs. Do you ever make them? And I ask sometime last winter about glow or UV mini's for custom stamping, have not seen them yet. Did you produce any?
Thanks

Dave
I have never seen 150 class I Dyed discs. Do you ever make them? And I ask sometime last winter about glow or UV mini's for custom stamping, have not seen them yet. Did you produce any?
Thanks

We rarely make 150 I Dyed. Very little demand. We do have both UV and glow minis for custom stamping.

Dave
I have never seen 150 class I Dyed discs. Do you ever make them? And I ask sometime last winter about glow or UV mini's for custom stamping, have not seen them yet. Did you produce any?
Thanks

There are many people that do custom dyes if you have the want. There is some amazing work being done up in the northwest, check it out.
http://nwdiscgolfnews.com/forum/showthread.php?t=59&page=35

Dave,

Any idea when the Champion Katanas will be put into normal production? I really like the ones I have and I'm not as interested in pro or star. Thanks.

Dave,

Any idea when the Champion Katanas will be put into normal production? I really like the ones I have and I'm not as interested in pro or star. Thanks.

Champion Katanas are presently slated for fundraising this season.

Hey Dave - what year was the Innova East office opened?

BTW...great news on Chino!!

Hey Dave - what year was the Innova East office opened?

BTW...great news on Chino!!

I don't know the year precisely, but it was about 1990.

Yeah, Prado is great news and hopefully will lead to more courses going into San Bernardino County parks. The course was already delivered, but I am not sure when it will be set up. Probably after it rains all next week.

Hey whats the difference in the plastic of the Pro Pig and The Pro Aviar because I love the feel of the Pro pig because of the grip. And if there is a difference what chance is there that you are going to make a grippier Pro aviar thats not R pro.

Hey whats the difference in the plastic of the Pro Pig and The Pro Aviar because I love the feel of the Pro pig because of the grip. And if there is a difference what chance is there that you are going to make a grippier Pro aviar thats not R pro.


The chances are good. We just got done testing a very firm but grippy material in the Dart. We will test the same stuff soon in an Aviar. The newest runs of Star Aviars are grippier, and a little softer than the older Star.

Dave- Whats the raw materials in the making of disc's? Can old discs be recyled or plastic bottles? I met you at the past Worlds I was the spotter at #4 in Blue Valley all week you had the closest shot at a deuce when hit the chains and it spit it out to the right but it was the best shot of the week there.

why were pro xcals never made

Dave- Whats the raw materials in the making of disc's? Can old discs be recyled or plastic bottles? I met you at the past Worlds I was the spotter at #4 in Blue Valley all week you had the closest shot at a deuce when hit the chains and it spit it out to the right but it was the best shot of the week there.

The raw materials are varied, but come from two basic plastic types. The original plastic was polyethylene. This has branched out to include several other types of olefinic plastic which includes, and is miscible with polyethylene.

The other main basic type is urethane.

Yes, plastic can be recycled, and we do it with bad parts all the time. The problem with recycling is that it has to be transported and separated by plastic type and color. After this, it has to be blended and repelletized to make new parts. All of this takes money and time, but it can be done.

why were pro xcals never made

Don't know right now. It would either be that we didn't think it would make a good product, or we just didn't think of doing it.

Don't know right now. It would either be that we didn't think it would make a good product, or we just didn't think of doing it.

Can you try it I bet itd be good. Prob be close to Echos

I went to my local pro shop today looking for eco teebirds and realized I was mistaken on the release date. I settled for a star katana. Having spent the weekend in 30 degree weather and 20 mph winds I didn't have it in me to go throw it. The plastic feels good, decent dome and pretty firm. Looking forward to some test drives. Anyone else throw them yet?

Echo Star Teebirds are not yet available to retailers. At this point in time, they are only available for custom stamping.

Echo Star Teebirds are not yet available to retailers. At this point in time, they are only available for custom stamping.

Where? I asked about them late last week at East and they said no.

Dave, are Discmania discs available for custom stamping?

I've had MD1's and P2's made with custom stamps. I worked with Mark at DGV.

I've had MD1's and P2's made with custom stamps. I worked with Mark at DGV.

Hmm...I want to get some PDs with a custom stamp.

Where? I asked about them late last week at East and they said no.

Not sure if they have been delivered to the East Coast yet.

Hmm...I want to get some PDs with a custom stamp.

Contact Mark Molnar at discgolfvalues.com He is the US distributor at this point.

Thanks Dave.

Dave, any more insight on the possibility on an R-Pro Rhyno?

Dave, any more insight on the possibility on an R-Pro Rhyno?

R-Pro Rhynos are scheduled to run on a regular basis. I believe the next run is coming up in the next month.

Champ glow aero?

Champ glow aero?

2nd! Gummy style would be awesome.

Keep 'em stiff!

What's the deal with the clear glow destroyers for japan? What is different about them? They look pretty sweet.

How does a Pegasus throw?

2nd! Gummy style would be awesome.

We can't make glow Champion Aeros. They're too heavy.

How does a Pegasus throw?

A Pegasus is basically a more stable Gazelle.

Keep 'em stiff!

What's the deal with the clear glow destroyers for japan? What is different about them? They look pretty sweet.

Sorry, I don't know anything about them.

We can't make glow Champion Aeros. They're too heavy.

Did you try recently, how heavy did they come out? That is lame.

These destroyers-
http://cgi.ebay.com/TEST-RUN-GLOW-JAPAN-CHAMPION-DESTROYER-175g-GOLF-DISC_W0QQitemZ140365677190QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_De faultDomain_0?hash=item20ae724286

These destroyers-
http://cgi.ebay.com/TEST-RUN-GLOW-JAPAN-CHAMPION-DESTROYER-175g-GOLF-DISC_W0QQitemZ140365677190QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_De faultDomain_0?hash=item20ae724286

aside from the stamp it looks like the rest of the glow destroyers i've seen. what do you see that's different?

aside from the stamp it looks like the rest of the glow destroyers i've seen. what do you see that's different?

They are clear. The ones I have and have seen are not that clear.

They are clear. The ones I have and have seen are not that clear.

hmmm.. i've got a clear one. from a tournament earlier this year. a buddy of mine has the same disc but, his is a little foggy...
come to think of it, most of them i've seen have had a foggy tint to them. maybe there is something special about mine!?

Is there any chance that Innova will make Echo Boss's and Echo Firebirds because those would really be awesome discs and if there has already been talks of it when can we expect to see them available to the public?

have you ever tried or thought to run a super heavy(200-300gm) disc as a training tool?

Is there any chance that Innova will make Echo Boss's and Echo Firebirds because those would really be awesome discs and if there has already been talks of it when can we expect to see them available to the public?

Echo Firebirds are a distinct possibility. Bosses are unlikely because it would be difficult to get them light enough. Neither is scheduled at this time.

have you ever tried or thought to run a super heavy(200-300gm) disc as a training tool?

This was a suggestion by Jonathan Poole a couple of years ago. We didn't want these discs out in circulation where they might be used to play disc golf. 200gm + discs pack a big wallop when they hit things. I played in the era when there wasn't any weight limit and threw discs as heavy as 250 gms.

Training with heavy discs can help your strength, but hurt your rhythm. Rhythm is much more important than strength and you can get strength in other ways.

Have you ever held an 'Aviars only' event? It could be a yearly extravaganza showcasing the most important disc ever to fly. It could be held on the same day in multiple locations and Innova could sponsor these events. There could be a distance contest too. What is the farthest you have seen/heard someone legitimately throw an Aviar?

I think that would be more likely to draw young players than super class...

just dreaming out loud ...

We just had a PDGA event at our Rutgers University course in NJ.

It was called "Fall N Putt" and was played with one disc, the Aviar.

The event drew new players and experienced alike and was truly a fun event.

We played to rounds using the aviar in the players pack.

Here are our results...

http://www.pdga.com/tournament-results?TournID=9715#Open

Hi Dave,
bought some (dx) Zephyrs recently with the "superclass"-stamp. The plastic feels like dx driverplastic or even R-Pro? What is it?

Hi Dave,
bought some (dx) Zephyrs recently with the "superclass"-stamp. The plastic feels like dx driverplastic or even R-Pro? What is it?

Hi Kjell,

I believe it is DX. R-Pro would likely be too soft for the Zephyr.

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So whats the deal with these Echo Teebirds? Like most of the more desired Innova product, they are on another website before any other. Im sure we will get access to them when everyone else has them. Great!

So whats the deal with these Echo Teebirds? Like most of the more desired Innova product, they are on another website before any other. Im sure we will get access to them when everyone else has them. Great!

Thanks for the heads up that they are available now!

Have you ever held an 'Aviars only' event? It could be a yearly extravaganza showcasing the most important disc ever to fly. It could be held on the same day in multiple locations and Innova could sponsor these events. There could be a distance contest too. What is the farthest you have seen/heard someone legitimately throw an Aviar?

I think that would be more likely to draw young players than super class...

just dreaming out loud ...


I've seen Will Schusterick throw a star Aviar (Not driver) from behind a goal post to 20ft past the goal post at the end of football field. 420 + feet..

Crazy

Goal post to goal post is 360ft, so it may have not have been quite that far.

In my younger days, I threw a prototype Aero 400 ft in a measured competition, and that was how far it went before it hit a tree! (no one thought that tree would even be close to interfering with the distance shots).

Goal post to goal post is 360ft, so it may have not have been quite that far.

In my younger days, I threw a prototype Aero 400 ft in a measured competition, and that was how far it went before it hit a tree! (no one thought that tree would even be close to interfering with the distance shots).



from "behind a goal post", bill. in any case, that sure is some story. i like the part where you incorrectly correct someone in order to make light of their accomplishment. please tell me more.

is that how far it is from goal post to goal post? good to know

So whats the deal with these Echo Teebirds? Like most of the more desired Innova product, they are on another website before any other. Im sure we will get access to them when everyone else has them. Great!

Dave,
Will the stock stamp echo Teebirds get out to stores and clubs other than discgolf values? I thought they were only going to be ran with custom stamps?

The Echo Star TeeBirds were available for West Coast custom orders while the discs were in queue for hot stamping. The entire West Coast inventory has been stock stamped and have been available to all customers for the past week. The discs for East Coast are still waiting to be shipped and likely won't be available from them until mid-January.

Hey Dave,

I just threw some S and P line PDs today and I must say its the best stable control driver I've thrown in years. The speed, glide, and stability of them was in perfect harmony. The S plastic is my favorite type of star (stiff and grippy), and that P plastic is the best pro I've ever felt. It reminds me of some of the first pro Leopards that came out when you guys re-introduced pro, or the Super Roc plastic. Anyway, great job on the PD, I have a feeling its going to be in my bag a long time. Please keep the runs as they are shape and plastic wise!

how does it (pd) compare to a star teebird?

Faster. Pretty much the same flight.

I've seen Will Schusterick throw a star Aviar (Not driver) from behind a goal post to 20ft past the goal post at the end of football field. 420 + feet..

Crazy

I saw Will throw a Boss farther than I have ever seen anyone get on Hole 15 at Idlewild, but he seemed to throw putters with flutter/off-axis torque that same day, so it surprises me a little that he would throw an Aviar 400+. But, seeing how far he threw a Boss it doesn't surprise me too much...

I can throw an Aviar-x 330 if I eat my Wheaties and that is pretty good for mere mortals.

Dave, as an ex Distance Champion -- what is the farthest you've ever heaved an Aviar?
Did Sam Ferrans roll an Aviar a quarter of a mile or is that just mythos?

Dave-
what is the story of the discmania PD mold? is it a combo of some other molds? what discs share the same rim width?
thanks

IT has the samw wing as a firebird with a new top

I saw Will throw a Boss farther than I have ever seen anyone get on Hole 15 at Idlewild, but he seemed to throw putters with flutter/off-axis torque that same day, so it surprises me a little that he would throw an Aviar 400+. But, seeing how far he threw a Boss it doesn't surprise me too much...

I can throw an Aviar-x 330 if I eat my Wheaties and that is pretty good for mere mortals.

Dave, as an ex Distance Champion -- what is the farthest you've ever heaved an Aviar?
Did Sam Ferrans roll an Aviar a quarter of a mile or is that just mythos?

I threw about 360 ft with an Aviar (end zone to end zone). Craig Leyva could/can throw 400ft or more. So can Avery. I think Dave Griffin was a 400ft Aviar thrower too.

Sam did roll an Aviar that far, but it was on a dry lake bed and would have gone farther if he had started farther back. The rollers will often roll to the end of the lake bed. I am sure he could have rolled a half mile or more.
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