a special TeeRex or two



I hope you mean a couple of models of TeeRex and not just two discs... :)

What is special about them?

Note: Innova DX Plastic has approx. a 15 minute lifespan in a dog daycare setting. Just FYI. :)

Any chance that one of those limited runs of Gremlins/Snipers would be in Champion plastic?

Is the 11X KC Pro Whippet the same mold as the Champion Whippet X ?

Thanks Dave for your time and dedication!!



The Gremlins could be in any plastic, but I would be leaning toward a softer/grippier Star. DX wouldn't be out of the question either.

I think the KC Pro Whippet was the normal mold, but I am not sure as they were run a few years ago.

Dave,
Just curious as to which disc we may find in our players package for the Norcal/Socal water bucket dispute? Any chance you can "leak" some information? KL



You'll have to ask Captain Mikey B. Sorry. Captain Mikey T might know too.

a special TeeRex or two



I hope you mean a couple of models of TeeRex and not just two discs... :)

What is special about them?



I have been working on "improving" the TeeRex, so now there are 6 different mold variations to work with. Add to that, three different plastic types, and we have some room to play. As we are currently running DX TeeRexes, I don't think I would opt for any DX types. Most likely the buffed up (more high speed stable) non X version in some type of Star or Champion.

how do the dx you are running now differ from the original dx teerexes earlier in the year? those were great. a hair more stable than the dx wraith, and straighter and more durable [slightly more blunt nose] these were the longer teebird for me.

how do the dx you are running now differ from the original dx teerexes earlier in the year? those were great. a hair more stable than the dx wraith, and straighter and more durable [slightly more blunt nose] these were the longer teebird for me.



I believe these are more consistently stable. The earlier run varied in stability.

DX TeeRexes were given out at the SoCal Championships (ams player pack) and I think most were 175. Mine was blue and overstable like a spirit! They are very stiff and beefy and I haven't thrown it too much since because it dove right into the ground but I imagine it would take a while to beat up

So Dave do you think we might be able to get some Champion TeeRex -S's for the Lexington open?
Hmmm?Hmmm?

Happy New year Dave
Looking forward to this new year in discs.

Dave, I have 2 questions.
First, I just got a new 12X Aviar, and it is nothing like the KC Aviars of the past. It is slower, less stable, and very domey, is this the way they all are or is this one fluke? It reminds me of a First Run Pro Aviar, only in KC plastic.

Second, after throwing this 12X I went searching for some 11x's that I love and cherish, and I found a KC Aviar with no writing about Ken Climo on the ring, so not an 11x or 12x, and on the back it just says "innova champion discs, inc. www.innovadiscs.com (http://www.innovadiscs.com)"...does not say san marino, like the older ones i have or the 12x, is this a special disc or run?

Thanks,
Matt



This run is all like what you describe. The one you have that says no run is basically a version of an 11X. We have duplicate parts for discs. The newer part has www...



Dave thanks for the info on the disc, but what about my first question about the 12x KCs??
Happy New Year,
Matt

Don't know if it has been asked for yet...but Star Panther? Any chance?

The 12X run is as you describe. They will probably stay that way or maybe be a little less domey next time. We tried to run them a couple of months ago like we used to do, with bad results. The flight plates were concave.

Happy New Year Dave!
Dave, I have rediscovered the Cobra. I am starting to use them more than my rocs and they have more range, more glide, and hold annys for over 300ft. When will you make them in STAR?

Happy new years!

Is the Super Roc goin to be a fundraiser again? If not can we get a regular release? I got some of the Super Rocs from 04-05 worlds & they were domey, I got some X-out Super Rocs from discgolfvalues and they were almost flat. The Flatter ones are the good ones, but hard to find. If you did a regular release is there anyway to control the dome to keep it flattish?

How about a New Years Star Whippet, to shut us all up once and for all?

Happy New Year Dave.

Happy New Year Dave!
Dave, I have rediscovered the Cobra. I am starting to use them more than my rocs and they have more range, more glide, and hold annys for over 300ft. When will you make them in STAR?



We have made them in a small test run. The are available in some CFR programs. Not sure when or if we will do the in larger quantities, but I like them.

Happy new years!

Is the Super Roc goin to be a fundraiser again? If not can we get a regular release? I got some of the Super Rocs from 04-05 worlds & they were domey, I got some X-out Super Rocs from discgolfvalues and they were almost flat. The Flatter ones are the good ones, but hard to find. If you did a regular release is there anyway to control the dome to keep it flattish?



The Super Roc is not going mainstream. I believe we still have an inventory. Mark, at discgolfvalues, is probably the best way to insure you get the kind of Roc you want. That's what he does best. Specific discs or odd discs are his specialty.

Hey Dave, would you explain that the term "stable" is used too often instead of "overstable". When someone says a disc is too stable, in reality that means it flies too flat. They usually mean it is overstable like a MAX not a Frisbee. It is very confusing for many players. Thanks.

Hey Dave, would you explain that the term "stable" is used too often instead of "overstable". When someone says a disc is too stable, in reality that means it flies too flat. They usually mean it is overstable like a MAX not a Frisbee. It is very confusing for many players. Thanks.



You are correct. The confusion comes from the term overstable, I think. This makes it seem that the more stability a disc has, the more tendency it has to turn left for RHBH, when that's not the case. If you have a suggestion for another way to describe a high speed stable low speed hyzer disc, I would like to hear it.

Got a chance to throw the Tee Rex re-tooled this past weekend.

Now I don't have to worry about this TeeRex flipping over into a head wind. It is so much more overstable than the Tee-Rex's I have been throwing. The one I rec'd last week is real close to the stability of the New MAX. I had almost given up on the TeeRex because I wanted it to be a headwind Wraith and it wasn't working very well. The new TeeRex won't have the same issues as the old molds flippin into headwinds. Downwind I almost rolled it and it still came out with a hyzer at the end. Very Overstable down wind.

The SEX orrrrrrrr the Star Eagle X was interesting but it flew pretty much like my TeeBirds...slower than expected and more stable than expected. I would suggest it as a good mid/long range (280-320ft) driver to anyone, seems to be very forgiving for beginners also.

Well, I really like my Star Gator, Star Firebird, and Star Rhyno.

The Firebird works as advertised, and heysers out beautifully with a good skip thrown nose down, and appears to ignore the wind. The Star Firebird is not real long. I could probably only throw it about 340-350. My Monster can go go more like 380', but is less predictable. I bought the Firebird for 350' distance not for max distance, so I am very happy.

The Gator is sick. I love this thing. I hope it never breaks in. It goes about 250-280' if thrown flat and just goes 30'- 50' left with a wicked skip. Like a Whippet but shorter. Longer than a putter on a low line but shorter than a Roc. I have had more people comment on the Gator flight than any of my discs. Comments like "whoa", and "man that thing is overstable" when it starts to turn.

The new Star Rhyno is like a great overstable white DX Rhyno, but appears to be indestructible. The all purpose short range wind driver or for slow left bends at short range.

Dave, the New Tee Rex's that Kevin is talking about, are they the same ones you sent to Team members about 3 weeks ago.

dave, can you tell the difference of the 2 tee-rex's by just looking at them?

I got mine about 2 weeks ago ;)

and it came with the Star Eagle X

Kewl, Thanks Kev

My red star TEE-REX 174 is much more (over)stable than the yellow star TEEREX 175. Is the - the difference? And the star TEE-REX-X is even more (over)stable?

Thanks for the feedback Kevin. Nice shooting dad. :o

Dave, the New Tee Rex's that Kevin is talking about, are they the same ones you sent to Team members about 3 weeks ago.



Yep. But we didn't send them to all team members. Mostly the ones who can throw the snot out of them, so we could get a good test.

dave, can you tell the difference of the 2 tee-rex's by just looking at them?



It would be hard to tell the difference. The type that Kevin and Schwebbie got are not out in general distribution.

My red star TEE-REX 174 is much more (over)stable than the yellow star TEEREX 175. Is the - the difference? And the star TEE-REX-X is even more (over)stable?



No that was just one of several hot stamping goofs.

Hey Dave, would you explain that the term "stable" is used too often instead of "overstable". When someone says a disc is too stable, in reality that means it flies too flat. They usually mean it is overstable like a MAX not a Frisbee. It is very confusing for many players. Thanks.



You are correct. The confusion comes from the term overstable, I think. This makes it seem that the more stability a disc has, the more tendency it has to turn left for RHBH, when that's not the case. If you have a suggestion for another way to describe a high speed stable low speed hyzer disc, I would like to hear it.



while we are at it, maybe we should adjust the vocabulary so we no longer say that a disc that likes to turn over is understable :confused:

I have had more people comment on the Gator flight than any of my discs. Comments like "whoa", and "man that thing is overstable" when it starts to turn.



Ditto. I get a lot of "What was THAT?"

i love the star gator. i throw the champiuon as well and they are 2 very different discs. i find the star coming out more and more these days.

how do the various gators compare to the griffin??

how do the various gators compare to the griffin??



I think the Griffin was faster. Maybe a little more overstable.

how do the various gators compare to the griffin??



I think the Griffin was faster. Maybe a little more overstable.



Dave,

What would happen if you had a large diameter Gator? Blunt nose, overstable, but more glide and distance.

Why don't we see more larger diameter fast driver discs? Is it the weight issue?

I think a large diameter (similar to a Roc diameter) Orion would be sweet.

Dave,

What would happen if you had a large diameter Gator? Blunt nose, overstable, but more glide and distance.

Why don't we see more larger diameter fast driver discs? Is it the weight issue?

I think a large diameter (similar to a Roc diameter) Orion would be sweet.



Any blunt nosed 180 sized disc would be competing with a lot of others in that niche already.

We started out with larger diameter drivers. Some of our first offerings were Aero, Stingray, Cobra then Viper. After the Viper came the Whippet. After the Whippet came everything else. We actually had a larger diameter driver called the Scorpion, which was legal up to 187 gms. If you had enough strength to throw a 187 gm disc, you were in luck with the Scorpion. Most people have a hard time throwing 175 gms. That is what we noticed. Smaller discs at the weight limit were lighter, quicker (better penetration into the wind), and less floaty, which is an advantage when you are playing in the wind. The larger diameter discs have the advantage of glide and forgiving small throwing errors. They are easier to throw. This comes in handy more for approaches where you don't need power as much as finesse. More simply put: smaller discs are better for a power game and larger discs are better for a finesses game.

This doesn't really answer your questions, but I think the real answer is we try to make what we think disc golfers want.

The red stars must bee more (over)stable than others. My yellow TEEREX 175 and the orange TEE-REX 175 are less stable than the red TEE-REX 174. It`s the same with teebirds.

The red stars must bee more (over)stable than others. My yellow TEEREX 175 and the orange TEE-REX 175 are less stable than the red TEE-REX 174. It`s the same with teebirds.



I love red star teerex's. If I remember correctly back when they first came out I read that the red was more overstable because darker colors take longer to cool so the top of the disc sinks more. I have a white and a red in the same weight almost the same age and they are two completely different discs. They are both great discs so the difference in stablility has worked well for me.

I was wondering if there were ever any sharks ran in old CE plastic, I belive it was, but several people swear it never was. So which is it? thanks.

Old like first Run CE, if that is what you are talking about then No they were not.

This doesn't really answer your questions, but I think the real answer is we try to make what we think disc golfers want.



No, that is a good answer. I thought it was the weight myself.

I remember my first disc. I have no idea what it was. I think I bought it in 1977. I was 200 grams. it was impossible to throw because you could not hold on to it, much less throw it.

I just noticed that there has yet to be a large diameter disc released with a more modern wing profile and sharp nose.

I never got to throw any discs of the Viper era, I was not playing then as I skipped about 20 years.

Thanks for the response Dave!

WOW! The Max skips like crazy! Pushing my beloved Monster out of my bag. Good job on this one Dave. :D

Hi Dave,

Just wondering what the word was on Star FLs. I seen one on Ebay, but havent heard they were available.

Hi Dave,

Just wondering what the word was on Star FLs. I seen one on Ebay, but havent heard they were available.



The Star FLs were just released this week. Our Product Update is due today.

Dave,

Will the Star FL fly significantly different than my broken-in Star Firebird? Did they end up domey like the Star Monsters?

Dave,

Will the Star FL fly significantly different than my broken-in Star Firebird? Did they end up domey like the Star Monsters?



I'll have to get back to you with a more definitive answer as I have not thrown them much yet, but I think it is fair
to say they start out like a broken in Firebird. They are not flat, so I guess you might find them a little domey.

Dave:
or anyone who can answer me:
I was wondering what the quantity of TRX's (Wraith X's) were ran. Also what is the process of a rare disc being produced? Do you mold a test disc in a small quantity and then stamp it, or do you aim for a certain type of disc ( i.e. a champion Tee-rex) and when it doesn't work out quit producing it?

Dave...

This past holiday season I recieved a white 175 gram star wraith with a holiday stamp on it (it looks kinda like a snowflake to me). I am wondering if this is a rare stamp (it says:Merry Christmas from your friends at innova) and how many quantities were made.

Jeremiah...

Dave:
or anyone who can answer me:
I was wondering what the quantity of TRX's (Wraith X's) were ran. Also what is the process of a rare disc being produced? Do you mold a test disc in a small quantity and then stamp it, or do you aim for a certain type of disc ( i.e. a champion Tee-rex) and when it doesn't work out quit producing it?



Yes, Dave, more specifically, how is the prototype mold made? Is it "hard" or "soft" tooling? As someone who does Product Development for a living, I have always been curious about that.

Is there, in fact, a protoype or "soft" mold/tooling at all? Do you perhaps shell out for a mold based upon computer modeling alone, then make changes to the mold in-house, "on the fly"? Is the whole tooling/mold making process done in-house (that would be pretty cool, but probably expensive to maintain), or do you specify the mold to be made elsewhere? I'm guessing you maybe use a tool maker in the Rancho Cucamonga area, based upon the rapid development of new discs you seem to accomplish. But I know molds of this size are fairly expensive, so you must have some way to minimize the risk in the development process.

Any info you're willing to give would be interesting. Thanks.

-Eric K

Dave:
or anyone who can answer me:
I was wondering what the quantity of TRX's (Wraith X's) were ran. Also what is the process of a rare disc being produced? Do you mold a test disc in a small quantity and then stamp it, or do you aim for a certain type of disc ( i.e. a champion Tee-rex) and when it doesn't work out quit producing it?



Specifically for the TRXs/WraithXs we were unable to test the flight until we had run several boxes. They were unacceptable for what I was aiming for, but excellent discs otherwise. Because the process of testing can take as much as 24 hrs, many test discs can be made before changes can be made. If those test discs suck, we grind them up, if they're good, but don't meet the proper criteria we were looking for, we can sell them as special runs etc.

Dave...

This past holiday season I recieved a white 175 gram star wraith with a holiday stamp on it (it looks kinda like a snowflake to me). I am wondering if this is a rare stamp (it says:Merry Christmas from your friends at innova) and how many quantities were made.

Jeremiah...



It was a complimentary disc we sent to our employees and people with whom we do business this past Christmas. We do this every year. We made enough to accomplish that only.

Yes, Dave, more specifically, how is the prototype mold made? Is it "hard" or "soft" tooling? As someone who does Product Development for a living, I have always been curious about that.

Is there, in fact, a protoype or "soft" mold/tooling at all? Do you perhaps shell out for a mold based upon computer modeling alone, then make changes to the mold in-house, "on the fly"? Is the whole tooling/mold making process done in-house (that would be pretty cool, but probably expensive to maintain), or do you specify the mold to be made elsewhere? I'm guessing you maybe use a tool maker in the Rancho Cucamonga area, based upon the rapid development of new discs you seem to accomplish. But I know molds of this size are fairly expensive, so you must have some way to minimize the risk in the development process.

Any info you're willing to give would be interesting. Thanks.

-Eric K



We do cad/cam hard tooling only out of house. It is risky and expensive. It is fairly fast (about 5 or 6 weeks total) because of the people we work with. A soft tooling would only be a little cheaper.

Dave,
Team Rizbee was just wondering when DX TeeRexs would be hitting stores.
Thanks

Dave,
Team Rizbee was just wondering when DX TeeRexs would be hitting stores.
Thanks

I have two if you're interested. Both 174g. PM me.

I think January Product Bulletin said Weds the 10th.

Dave,
Team Rizbee was just wondering when DX TeeRexs would be hitting stores.
Thanks



They're scheduled to be released Jan 10.

Dave...
I am just wondering if there are any plans to make the Banshee in star plastic? If so, can you give an estimated time on when it would be coming out.

Jeremiah...

Dave...
I am just wondering if there are any plans to make the Banshee in star plastic? If so, can you give an estimated time on when it would be coming out.

Jeremiah...



No immediate plans to run Star Banshees. Possibly some time in the future.

how long would you guess it will be before i can get my paws on some Star Roadrunners?

how long would you guess it will be before i can get my paws on some Star Roadrunners?



Probably several months. We made a decision to delay them. However, I now think a soft Star version would make a nice addition to the line.

thanks for the reply Dave -- a soft Star Roadrunner sounds like a winner to me, i was just wondering how long i would have to drool thinking about them :D

i have an SB Roadrunner but as much as i'd love to throw it, it seems best left unthrown...

btw, do you happen to know what disc Mark used for this throw? --

27th (all-time): 2002 Mark Molnar USA El Mirage, CA, USA 198m 649.6ft 216.53yds

I think Mark threw a Voyager. Im pretty sure thats what he used for his 190+m throw for the Nevada States. Those discs used to be the best disc for Big D in a tailwind. I could be mistaken on what he threw.

thanks for the reply Dave -- a soft Star Roadrunner sounds like a winner to me, i was just wondering how long i would have to drool thinking about them :D

i have an SB Roadrunner but as much as i'd love to throw it, it seems best left unthrown...

btw, do you happen to know what disc Mark used for this throw? --

27th (all-time): 2002 Mark Molnar USA El Mirage, CA, USA 198m 649.6ft 216.53yds



Sorry, I don't know what he threw.

He threw a Lynx for this 12 year standing World Record;

118.90 m ... Mark Molnar to Cheyenne-Ashley Whippet (USA) 10/12/94 Pasadena, CA

BTW, His canine coundn't leave his side until the disc was released...

i just viewed the ad. for the Star Max on p. 68 of the latest DGWN and have to say -- the ads you guys do are great.

Threw the NEW Tee Rex yesterday, me Like very much, PreTTy Overstable, with a slight hyzer release. Thanks Dave. Star Eagle is Great as well, it will be replacing my Champion as soon as it is gone.

i just viewed the ad. for the Star Max on p. 68 of the latest DGWN and have to say -- the ads you guys do are great.



I haven't seen that one yet, but the Teerex ad in the newest Disc Golf Magazine from Revolution is awesome. It's the one where Kenny is shown in his follow-through pose standing on one leg, and his shadow is in the shape of a T-Rex dinosaur with the slogan, "The Teerex...Don't just throw it, be it." :D


sleepy

Dave, how many Christmas disc were made? Thanks

hey Dave--with the re-tool of the teerex, did you not only notice the dx getting consistantly more [over]stable, but did you also notice much change in the star? thx

Dave, how many Christmas disc were made? Thanks



I don't know the numbers, but they are all gone. They went to employees, business associates, customers, etc. Probably around 2000 in all.

hey Dave--with the re-tool of the teerex, did you not only notice the dx getting consistantly more [over]stable, but did you also notice much change in the star? thx



Yes, both. The Star version has not been run. Only tested. We will probably call the Star Version TeeRexX, put it in TFR, and leave the original alone. The RexX version is only needed by the power guys. There are not that many of those guys out there not playing in tournaments. The DX version is okay in the RexX mold as it gets beat up as it is used, and needs a good stability start.

News
June 28, 2006

New Champion Bag Coming Soon
Innova's new Champion Bag is set to begin hitting shelves very soon. Innova employees received bags today and everyone is pretty stoked to make the switch.

The Champion Bag combines some of the most requested bag features, plus some additional features that simply have to be tested to realize their functionality. Available with dual shoulder straps or with single shoulder strap, this bag uses high tech materials and craftsmanship to offer players true functionality on the course. Holds up to 20 discs between main compartment and putter pocket.

The Champion Bag will be in the Pro Shop as soon as they arrive.


Dave,
My bag is literally falling apart as I have been waiting 6 months for this bag to come out. I know you said ZD was handling it, but maybe it's time for you to get involved as many people are anxiously awaiting this bag and its delay has become almost comical. Could you please update us on the progress and give us a projected release date and price? Thanks.

hey Dave,
Whats the difference between the older proto Teerex-X and the new retooled Teerex-X coming out?

Probably been asked, but are star cobras on the horizon?

btw, do you happen to know what disc Mark used for this throw? --

27th (all-time): 2002 Mark Molnar USA El Mirage, CA, USA 198m 649.6ft 216.53yds



Mark Molnar said his 198m throw was with a 150gm Dragon. His 195m throw was with a 150gm Archangel and his 192m throw was with a 167gm Voyager.

hey Dave,
Whats the difference between the older proto Teerex-X and the new retooled Teerex-X coming out?


I'm guessing more consistently high speed stable. Some of the TRX protos I threw had slight high speed turn.

[QUOTE]
Some of the TRX protos I threw had slight high speed turn.



Did they have a "SS" or "STX" on the bottom?

hey Dave,
Whats the difference between the older proto Teerex-X and the new retooled Teerex-X coming out?



I think the new version is a tad more overstable.

Probably been asked, but are star cobras on the horizon?



Star Cobras are in the TFR program for now.

[QUOTE]
Some of the TRX protos I threw had slight high speed turn.



Did they have a "SS" or "STX" on the bottom?


STX, heh, that's what i meant! I didn't throw any $$, I mean SS...

My bag is literally falling apart as I have been waiting 6 months for this bag to come out. I know you said ZD was handling it, but maybe it's time for you to get involved as many people are anxiously awaiting this bag and its delay has become almost comical. Could you please update us on the progress and give us a projected release date and price? Thanks.



I was told they will be inspected around Friday. If they pass inspection, they should be available within a week or so after.

btw, do you happen to know what disc Mark used for this throw? --

27th (all-time): 2002 Mark Molnar USA El Mirage, CA, USA 198m 649.6ft 216.53yds



Mark Molnar said his 198m throw was with a 150gm Dragon. His 195m throw was with a 150gm Archangel and his 192m throw was with a 167gm Voyager.



:eek: :eek: :eek: my jaw just hit the ground :D thanks Discette, it's cool knowing what he did it with. especially since a lot of self-professed big-arms could never finesse anything but an overstable disc very far :D

btw, do you happen to know what disc Mark used for this throw? --

27th (all-time): 2002 Mark Molnar USA El Mirage, CA, USA 198m 649.6ft 216.53yds



Mark Molnar said his 198m throw was with a 150gm Dragon. His 195m throw was with a 150gm Archangel and his 192m throw was with a 167gm Voyager.



:eek: :eek: :eek: my jaw just hit the ground :D thanks Discette, it's cool knowing what he did it with. especially since a lot of self-professed big-arms could never finesse anything but an overstable disc very far :D


This is normally true until you realize that most of the top pro are so good it doesn't matter. You can watch Avery win a distance comp and then go to Japan and play in a 150 class tournament and tie for first.

Dave,

Found a really old aviar today and was wondering if you could help with a date or any type of value on it.

It has 5 - 6 circles around the word Aviar. Beneath Aviar in small letters is flying disc. Around the inner part of the circle has "The leading edge in flying disc tchnology" and then "For disc sports by Innova"

It also has a patent and is a big bead mold.

Thanks for the help.

Those were sold in late 80's in a cardboard box. Majority were very light weight. Mint $20, with box up to $60.

interesting - I found it in a used bin for 5 bux. IT is used, but not in bad shape.

Thanks for the info.

Dave can you confirm this? How rare is this disc?

interesting - I found it in a used bin for 5 bux. IT is used, but not in bad shape.

Thanks for the info.

Dave can you confirm this? How rare is this disc?



The hotstamp sounds like the original package disc that flyinvegals is talking about, however your disc isn't the original. The original discs were around 130 grams, had a single 2" sprue circle, were beadless and came in four to six colors with a gold foil hotstamp. What you have is probably a later big bead with that stamp. I would need to see the disc to confirm.

thanks for the info!!

I'm not a collector and I know someoe who is and we both wanted to make sure that we both got a fair deal.

That stamp on a regular BB is rarer than the original, but not as old.

Dave - I have about a dozen 2006 CFR Fundraising Program Raffle tickets I need to get in. My question is will these still be valid now that it is 2007?

They were purchased from discs for the British Open.

Thanks

I have two questions regarding the 20th aniversary aviar special edition disc...
1. What mold is it made from
2. Since everywhere i have read says it is type of Champion plastic, I would just like to confirm that that is true. Also, I am just wondering if the champion plastic aviar mold is different from the pro lines and the star aviar driver mold becasue they feel very different to me.

Dave - I have about a dozen 2006 CFR Fundraising Program Raffle tickets I need to get in. My question is will these still be valid now that it is 2007?

They were purchased from discs for the British Open.

Thanks



It is not too late to send in 2006 certificates. You should do it as soon as possible to get the maximum chances.

I have two questions regarding the 20th aniversary aviar special edition disc...
1. What mold is it made from
2. Since everywhere i have read says it is type of Champion plastic, I would just like to confirm that that is true. Also, I am just wondering if the champion plastic aviar mold is different from the pro lines and the star aviar driver mold becasue they feel very different to me.



From memory, I believe it was the putter mold. It is different from the driver mold. It was Champion or Star plastic.

Hey Dave, when are you guys going to release the '07 USDGC Rocs? Thanks in advanced.

Hey Dave, when are you guys going to release the '07 USDGC Rocs? Thanks in advanced.



They will be released in March. I don't know the exact date yet.

Hey Dave I bought two of the new wraiths at the store a couple of weeks ago and I am looking at the Certificate and is for the 2006 Worlds, so Does the matter at all?

I am just trying to clear things up... Is the star monster in the L mold and if so how does it compare to the Star Starfire?

The new KC ROC....Are there going to be any changes? I'm guessing it will say 12 time champ on it, right?

The Star Monster is in the L mold and even though I don't throw the L- mold I'm guessing it's flight is shorter (less glide)than the Star Starfire but has the same amount of fade at the end.

Dave,

I've been looking into the Firebirds for a new headwind disc (sorry, dont like the TeeRex or Max) and I can't tell the difference between the Star and Champ. Firebirds and the Pro and Star FL's. The Innova website has their fades at different numbers (2 for FL and 4 for Firebird) but I cant seem to tell the difference. What are the differences between them and which would be best for headwinds?

Hey Dave I bought two of the new wraiths at the store a couple of weeks ago and I am looking at the Certificate and is for the 2006 Worlds, so Does the matter at all?



Those should still be good.

The new KC ROC....Are there going to be any changes? I'm guessing it will say 12 time champ on it, right?



No changes, and it will say 12X.

Dave,

I've been looking into the Firebirds for a new headwind disc (sorry, dont like the TeeRex or Max) and I can't tell the difference between the Star and Champ. Firebirds and the Pro and Star FL's. The Innova website has their fades at different numbers (2 for FL and 4 for Firebird) but I cant seem to tell the difference. What are the differences between them and which would be best for headwinds?



The Champion and Star would be the best into a headwind, followed by the Star FL, then the Pro FL. The FL versions have less overstability and less fade.

I am just trying to clear things up... Is the star monster in the L mold and if so how does it compare to the Star Starfire?



The Star Monster is L and is more overstable with more fade than the Starfire. It is like a faster FL. The Starfire is more like a faster longer TeeBird/Eagle.

Dave - I have about a dozen 2006 CFR Fundraising Program Raffle tickets I need to get in. My question is will these still be valid now that it is 2007?

They were purchased from discs for the British Open.

Thanks



I would hope so as those fundraiser discs are for this years British Open, thanks for supporting us.

Tim

Hi Dave,

when did the first JK Aviars come out?

i recently acquired a 2001 PDGA National Doubles stamp Aviar-X. would you expect it to be essentially the same as my 3x JK Aviars...?

And the important question Dave where the heck are those DX starfires? Thanks Again
Scott

Hi Dave,

when did the first JK Aviars come out?

i recently acquired a 2001 PDGA National Doubles stamp Aviar-X. would you expect it to be essentially the same as my 3x JK Aviars...?



I think I remember those being prototype or first run. I know a couple friends of mine went to that. They cam eback with those JKs. They felt like the protos to me.

Hi Dave,

when did the first JK Aviars come out?

i recently acquired a 2001 PDGA National Doubles stamp Aviar-X. would you expect it to be essentially the same as my 3x JK Aviars...?



Sorry, I don't know exactly when the JK first came out, but after Juliana won 3 World's, and before she won 4. That should narrow it down.

The mold is identical. The plastic only varies with the stiffness. Some are softer, and some are stiffer. None are as stiff as a regular A&P, usually, and none are as soft as a SS, usually.

And the important question Dave where the heck are those DX starfires? Thanks Again
Scott



The Starfire mold is in, but will take a few weeks to run the Champion, Star, and SLs. After that we can test the Starfire in DX. If it passes the test, we can run. So, it is still a ways off. Sorry.

Hey Dave, I was wondering if the Signiture STAR Wraiths (such as Feldberg, Reading) came with CFR certificates? And were only the Feldberg and Reading produced? There were 100 made per player, correct? Also, I think Jenkins should get one, he definately deserves it.

Yeah, maybe you should make an Averyar.

Dave,

Is the DX teerex the same as the rex released for the Soc cal Tourney?

Hey Dave, I was wondering if the Signiture STAR Wraiths (such as Feldberg, Reading) came with CFR certificates? And were only the Feldberg and Reading produced? There were 100 made per player, correct? Also, I think Jenkins should get one, he definately deserves it.



Those were not CFR discs, so they did not come with certificates. There were 100 each given to our 2005 world and USDGC Champions. I don't remember how many, but I think it was four players. There were more in 2006.

Dave,

Is the DX teerex the same as the rex released for the Soc cal Tourney?



The latest run of DX TeeRexs are the more stable mold.

Dave...

Just wondering how many champion whippets were made?

Dave, I had a 150 class Aviar crack on me today. It was sitting in my yard and cracked just hitting the basket on a 30' putt. I have quite a few Aviars laying around in the backyard so I'm wondering if this is common, and if I should bring them in when the temp drops quickly (was 44 yesterday, 24 today)?

BTW...this is now reply #4000!

Thanks for the deals on the GREAT DISCATCHERS Innova, from Winter Park Disc Golfd Club. Ryan Baker has put up with all our ups and downs in a first class way.

Dave...

Just wondering how many champion whippets were made?



I'm no Dave, but as an avid Whippet devotee, I recall there was a limited run of 2000. Not sure if that number included X-Outs...

I've gone through at least half a dozen, but I remember two were X-Outs. I currently have two in the bag and two on deck, at least until we get a >>>Star Whippet<<<

<font color="gray">check my avatar...</font>

Dave, I had a 150 class Aviar crack on me today. It was sitting in my yard and cracked just hitting the basket on a 30' putt. I have quite a few Aviars laying around in the backyard so I'm wondering if this is common, and if I should bring them in when the temp drops quickly (was 44 yesterday, 24 today)?



my friend putts with 10x KC Aviars in the summer, but with Omega SuperSofts in the winter cause he doesn't want them to crack.
(he seems to putt better with Omegas too LOL)
in Wisconsin that is probably even more of a concern, since colder plastic is more brittle

Dave...

Just wondering how many champion whippets were made?



I'm not sure, but I would guess less than 2000.

Dave, I had a 150 class Aviar crack on me today. It was sitting in my yard and cracked just hitting the basket on a 30' putt. I have quite a few Aviars laying around in the backyard so I'm wondering if this is common, and if I should bring them in when the temp drops quickly (was 44 yesterday, 24 today)?



I don't know about the cold per se, but leaving them lay around in your yard exposes them to a lot of UV. Much more than you would get by playing with them and putting them in your bag. That will make them very brittle over time. If they have already had a nice UV bath, then cold temps would make them extra brittle.

Yeah, they've had a nice UV bath for the past three years! I'll keep that in mind and keep my discs in the shade.

That is a great way to :season: up a disc, leave it out in the snow and sun. Kinda like marinating it is mother nature!

Hi Dave,

On another thread, theres a CE disc with a DX stamp. Its on the "Cool Stamps" thread.
( Im sure Rob could post a picture of the disc..or someone else maybe..)

Do you have any idea when Innova stopped using that version of DX stamp?

Also, I remember seeing on here something about CLEAR 2nd Run Firebirds.( not pigment, its dayglo, but plastic type.) If memory serves, they were quite rare. What Im having trouble with was if these were in GUMMY plastic, or just a clear version. A friend brought a CE FX over from the '01 Peoria Open ( custom stamped w/ date ), and I have several others from the same tourney. I do not remember ANY other clear CE discs from those early runs, with the exception of Proto Valks, and maybe Gazelles. Im pretty sure all others were opaque dayglo.

Any info? Thanks again, either way.

Hi Dave,

On another thread, theres a CE disc with a DX stamp. Its on the "Cool Stamps" thread.
( Im sure Rob could post a picture of the disc..or someone else maybe..)

Do you have any idea when Innova stopped using that version of DX stamp?

Also, I remember seeing on here something about CLEAR 2nd Run Firebirds.( not pigment, its dayglo, but plastic type.) If memory serves, they were quite rare. What Im having trouble with was if these were in GUMMY plastic, or just a clear version. A friend brought a CE FX over from the '01 Peoria Open ( custom stamped w/ date ), and I have several others from the same tourney. I do not remember ANY other clear CE discs from those early runs, with the exception of Proto Valks, and maybe Gazelles. Im pretty sure all others were opaque dayglo.

Any info? Thanks again, either way.



I would need to see the stamp to opine.

No idea on the 2nd run Firebirds, though, I think I remember some gummy clear light ones.

Hey Dave,

This is not a disc question. Have you ever considered making instructional videos with Innova? I hear you have an incredible bent arm throwing style that is truly unique.

I think that more serious instruction is needed, might as well see some of it from Innova, right?

Hey Dave,

This is not a disc question. Have you ever considered making instructional videos with Innova? I hear you have an incredible bent arm throwing style that is truly unique.

I think that more serious instruction is needed, might as well see some of it from Innova, right?



We have wanted to produce an instructional video for a while. Recently we did a lot of filming at USDGC for an EDGE instructional video. Possibly we will be able to put another, more detailed video together from that footage.

Is there any footage of YOU throwing somewhere, Dave?

Is there any footage of YOU throwing somewhere, Dave?



Not much. The EGDE footage has me throwing sidearm, but not backhand. There are many others that throw with the bent elbow. Steve Brinster is one of the best.

There are many others that throw with the bent elbow. Steve Brinster is one of the best.



Brinster is considered by many to be the prototype for modern throwing technique. He has more of a combination technique to me.

I think Walt Haney is the pure bent arm prototype.

http://www.discgolfreview.com/resources/analysis/walterhaney.shtml

Do you have any ideas on how to throw nose down and elbow up?

Do you have any ideas on how to throw nose down and elbow up?



Walt Haney is an excellent driver. I have no tips on throwing elbow up, but nose down is largely a matter of grip and wrist position. Make sure the disc is cocked down in your grip, and your wrist is cocked down with respect to your arm. The last thing to do is make sure you are opening your wrist up as far as you can. The more you can open your wrist, (having done the other two things first), the more nose down you can throw.

Do you have any ideas on how to throw nose down and elbow up?



Walt Haney is an excellent driver. I have no tips on throwing elbow up, but nose down is largely a matter of grip and wrist position. Make sure the disc is cocked down in your grip, and your wrist is cocked down with respect to your arm. The last thing to do is make sure you are opening your wrist up as far as you can. The more you can open your wrist, (having done the other two things first), the more nose down you can throw.



Walt is mighty fast. Another fella who is mighty fast at the finish is Mike Robinson.

http://www.discgolfreview.com/resources/analysis/mikerobinson.shtml

I do not understand opening the wrist.

I do not understand opening the wrist.



Opposite of curling.

I do not understand opening the wrist.



Opposite of curling.



That is what I thought...

Why do you feel opening the wrist promotes nose down?

Do you have any ideas on how to throw nose down and elbow up?



... [snip] ... The last thing to do is make sure you are opening your wrist up as far as you can. The more you can open your wrist, (having done the other two things first), the more nose down you can throw.



i can't wait to try this in the field! coming from an Ultimate background, i think i've learned to curl my wrist as a way to ensure the nose is up to help counter turnover tendencies --especially when throwing with max power and armspeed. i have the same nose up problems with forehands. Dave is the no curl equally important with forehands (to keep the nose down)? and are you talking about opening the wrist throughout the throw or just at the hit?

unfortunately it is dark and rainy now ... :mad: :D

Do you have any ideas on how to throw nose down and elbow up?



... [snip] ... The last thing to do is make sure you are opening your wrist up as far as you can. The more you can open your wrist, (having done the other two things first), the more nose down you can throw.



i can't wait to try this in the field! coming from an Ultimate background, i think i've learned to curl my wrist as a way to ensure the nose is up to help counter turnover tendencies --especially when throwing with max power and armspeed. i have the same nose up problems with forehands. Dave is the no curl equally important with forehands (to keep the nose down)? and are you talking about opening the wrist throughout the throw or just at the hit?



Interesting you said this... I understand closing the wrist in the forehand (like the more you point your index finger at the target) brings the nose down (even though I cannot explain why).

So, is the backhand the opposite?

Can anyone explain why closing the wrist on the forehand lowers the nose? Or conversely why keeping the wrist open raises it?

actually that makes intuitive sense. since the forehand and backhand are opposites -- opening the wrist for nosedown backhand would equate with closing the wrist for nose down forehands. i am finally realizing that i do just the opposite on both throws (works with lids and touch shots with putters and mids) so i am looking foreward to trying this out with golf drivers..

actually that makes intuitive sense. since the forehand and backhand are opposites -- opening the wrist for nosedown backhand would equate with closing the wrist for nose down forehands. i am finally realizing that i do just the opposite on both throws (works with lids and touch shots with putters and mids) so i am looking foreward to trying this out with golf drivers..



So, if your wrist does not uncurl backhand, you are throwing nose up?

Why? How is this happening?

actually that makes intuitive sense. since the forehand and backhand are opposites -- opening the wrist for nosedown backhand would equate with closing the wrist for nose down forehands. i am finally realizing that i do just the opposite on both throws (works with lids and touch shots with putters and mids) so i am looking foreward to trying this out with golf drivers..



So, if your wrist does not uncurl backhand, you are throwing nose up?

Why? How is this happening?



good question. i'm not sure -- i just know i do curl and i do tend to throw nose up ... i am uncurling through the hit with a tendency to push the nose up. Dave?

I don't think it's the curling and uncurling specifically. I think it's the positioning of the wrist and flatness of the disc at the point of release. When you do uncurl the wrist in a backhand at release it aligns the arm, wrist, and disc in a flat plane. The only way to make the disc flat while throwing back hand and not uncurling the wrist would be to have the elbow below the wrist. I seem to still uncurl my wrist when throwing this way which is a technique I use alot to throw a lower anhyzer shot. When you don't have a curling to uncurling motion in the wrist at release (opposite for sidearm) you're robbing yourself out of a lot of RPM generating snap at the end. This snap alone can generate a great speed in any disc. Warning this is all in my opinion as I am no where near being a pro.

Dave,
Just wondering if there is any chance of a disc like the hydra or dragon coming out in star or champion plastic without having the floating feature?

Dave,
This might of come up already. But I'll ask. On my local course forums someone is wondering about Champion Starfire L's. He heard that they were coming. Can you confirm or deny this.
Also will there be Champion Rex's?

The Hydra 175 g and Dragon 150g were in a special plastic that floated in water.
Star and Champion plastic don't float.
Dunno about 150 class but pretty sure it wont float anyway.

You can always throw Lightning...haha

But really why would you want a Champion Hydra or Dragon? ;)

So, if your wrist does not uncurl backhand, you are throwing nose up?

Why? How is this happening?

[/QUOTE]

good question. i'm not sure -- i just know i do curl and i do tend to throw nose up ... i am uncurling through the hit with a tendency to push the nose up. Dave?

[/QUOTE]

Sorry, it took so long to get back to you. I have been busy. I think you can see the open wrist for backhand and closed for forehand in action just by watching what happens in throwing position. Watch the position of the flight plate plane as you go from curled to open for backhand and opened to curled for forehand. In the opened backhand position, you can feel how much easier it is to get the nose down. Same with the closed forehand. It is easier with forehand than backhand. Also, you have more snap potential in the open wrist backhand position. The forehand doesn't necessarily go to all closed, but it does get to slightly closed and not open.

If you don't throw with this wrist position, it doesn't automatically mean you are throwing nose up. But you probably are.

Dave,
Just wondering if there is any chance of a disc like the hydra or dragon coming out in star or champion plastic without having the floating feature?



Nothing coming out. Closest thing to a Hydra would be an Aviar driver. Closest to a Dragon would be several discs like Eagle, Valkyrie, Sidewinder.

Dave, if INNOVA added a profile of the disc to their rating system, players would be able to see what other discs are close (along with using the great 4 number system and published disc diameter).

Herodisc.com has profiles of some of the discs...

Here's a beast: http://www.herodisc.com/shop/images/DGL-DSC-INO-DX-BST_1.gif

Do they have the Teebird?

Herodisc.com has profiles of some of the discs...

Here's a beast: http://www.herodisc.com/shop/images/DGL-DSC-INO-DX-BST_1.gif



Is that the new beast or the old one?

Dave was there any testruns like this HAMMER/GRIFFIN Hybrid?
http://cgi.ebay.com/New-Innova-HAMMER-GRIFFIN-Hybrid-174g-Disc-Golf-Disc_W0QQitemZ200069607789QQihZ010QQcategoryZ79804 QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Dave was there any testruns like this HAMMER/GRIFFIN Hybrid?
http://cgi.ebay.com/New-Innova-HAMMER-GRIFFIN-Hybrid-174g-Disc-Golf-Disc_W0QQitemZ200069607789QQihZ010QQcategoryZ79804 QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem





Hi Dave,

While viewing the disc MF100 asked about, select "View Sellers Other Items" on the Ebay page. He has a Roc on there, "CoC" Bar Stamp, Rainbow.

Is this a Rancho Proto or an 8x Proto or both? Ive heard it both ways, but also have another bar stamp Roc, a non "Choice Of Champions" and was told THAT was the real 8x Proto. Which is it?

Thank you sir.

That is without a doubt a non-retool beast. (aka orc)

No it isn't a hybrid. The last tooling of the hammer were just overstable unlike the previous runs the were evenly stable to understable.

Dave was there any testruns like this HAMMER/GRIFFIN Hybrid?
http://cgi.ebay.com/New-Innova-HAMMER-GRIFFIN-Hybrid-174g-Disc-Golf-Disc_W0QQitemZ200069607789QQihZ010QQcategoryZ79804 QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem



This looks like the Hammerhead, which was a more extreme version of the third generation Hammer. Or it might be the third generation Hammer. I don't remember any Hammer/Griffin mix. The Griffin was a small diameter, overstable, thick nosed disc that flew a bit like a Whippet. The Hammerhead was a roller. The third generation Hammer was large diameter and a little overstable.

Dave was there any testruns like this HAMMER/GRIFFIN Hybrid?
http://cgi.ebay.com/New-Innova-HAMMER-GRIFFIN-Hybrid-174g-Disc-Golf-Disc_W0QQitemZ200069607789QQihZ010QQcategoryZ79804 QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem





Hi Dave,

While viewing the disc MF100 asked about, select "View Sellers Other Items" on the Ebay page. He has a Roc on there, "CoC" Bar Stamp, Rainbow.

Is this a Rancho Proto or an 8x Proto or both? Ive heard it both ways, but also have another bar stamp Roc, a non "Choice Of Champions" and was told THAT was the real 8x Proto. Which is it?

Thank you sir.



That stamp was put on the 8X, so it could be. It was a generic stamp used before the KC stamp. I don't remember what we put the "Choice of Champions" stamp on. Too many years ago, too many discs. Sorry.

So Dave, what's in the works for the 2007 Champion Rocs? Anything extra special? hmmmm?? russ3523

I believe it is known both as an 8x KC proto and a rancho proto. It is more commonly known as the 8x KC proto rainbow roc. There were other bar stamps produced on the same run/similar run of rocs. You can see these @ SEE ROC CITY (http://www.seeroccity.com/lobby.cgi) Look in the North gallery and hit refresh gallery's a few times and you'll see them.

So Dave, what's in the works for the 2007 Champion Rocs? Anything extra special? hmmmm?? russ3523



We have not decided what we are doing yet. We would be glad to get input from you and others as to what you would like to see.

You guys made alot of different Rocs last year:
Champion Rancho
Glow Ch Rancho
Star Rancho
SB Ontario

Has the Ontario ever been run in Champion or Glo Champion?

I would definitely like to see more black rocs. Either star or the opaque black champion. Love the Celtic stamp from last year and the old zonedriven and choice of champions stamps. Simplicity in a few of the stamps would be great. Although I forgot to buy the USDGC partner pack so I probably won't get what I'm looking for anyway. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

You mean one of these: USDGC Partner Pack (http://www.zonedriven.com/proshop/index.php?p=product&id=9&parent=38)

Dave,
If I might pull you away from all this roc talk for a Sirius matter :D I've got my hands on a SMS finally. The SJLS and the SO(s) feel tackier or grippier compared to the SMS and the SOmega. Is it the mold process, the plastic, or the space between my ears ;) If it is the plastic, will it break in with more grip? I haven't thrown it yet, but I know it will be a fine addition to my bag. Just gott get used to it....

what color is your SMS? i have a red one and i find it less grippy (stiffer) than i was expecting. i still love it but would like more grip... i have some Sirius blue SOLF's that are stiff-ish and some orange SOLS's that are very grippy. there seems to be a lot of variation in the Sirius plastic.

Dave, is that intentional or just the plastic and pigment variation(s)?

----------------

Roc topic: a candy Ontario-type (champ or glow) would be my vote. also, a bar stamp with: "USDGC Ontario-type Roc"
or a circle pattern with that text would be cool (a la the 8x KC stamps) ...

Sparkle Champion. Or clear Champion with shredded money molded in.

Hi Dave,

I apologize if this has been asked before, but with 200+ pages to this thread, even the search function can't find everything! ;)

The Viking is the next disc I'm auditioning for a driver slot in my bag, and I wanted to ask what Innova's plans are for this disc before I try it and take the chance of falling in love with it.

In the 2006 Innova product guide, it says the Viking was slated for Star plastic in 2006. Seeing as that never happened and it has never been a big seller, I wanted to ask you if it is in danger of being discontinued; or were the plans for Star plastic just pushed back?

Thanks again for all that you do,


sleepy

Im not sure about the Star versions, but there are Special Blend. I think Twisted Flyer had them.

Thanks Dave.



I believe it is known both as an 8x KC proto and a rancho proto. It is more commonly known as the 8x KC proto rainbow roc. There were other bar stamps produced on the same run/similar run of rocs. You can see these @ SEE ROC CITY (http://www.seeroccity.com/lobby.cgi) Look in the North gallery and hit refresh gallery's a few times and you'll see them.




Yeah, I have them both. I was just trying to get from the horses mouth. Its no big deal, thanks though.

So Dave, what's in the works for the 2007 Champion Rocs? Anything extra special? hmmmm?? russ3523



We have not decided what we are doing yet. We would be glad to get input from you and others as to what you would like to see.



I'd like to see less of them made. ZD is still selling last years, and glo's from '05.

I like simple stamps like the One Division One Champion or the Celtic. I prefer the '05 SB Roc.

Your color choices are fine, I get my order in early with the other 30 +/- USDGC Partners.

Please post stamps when you have them. Thx

So Dave, what's in the works for the 2007 Champion Rocs? Anything extra special? hmmmm?? russ3523



We have not decided what we are doing yet. We would be glad to get input from you and others as to what you would like to see.



I'd like to see less of them made. ZD is still selling last years, and glo's from '05.

I like simple stamps like the One Division One Champion or the Celtic. I prefer the '05 SB Roc.

Your color choices are fine, I get my order in early with the other 30 +/- USDGC Partners.

Please post stamps when you have them. Thx



I agree with the post above. Less is more.

On another note, what about including a sticker on the back that had a web address and a code, kind of like what is being printed under the caps of bottles of coke lately. This code could be used as a sweepstakes for the "ultimate 2007" champion roc. (I also liked the idea mentioned earlier of a clear one with shredded money. Funny.)
It should be a one of a kind disc and/or package. Think of the web traffic that something like this could generate. With that much traffic, you could put GoogleAdSense ads on the webpage and direct even more funds to the USDGC.

Another idea would be to break the sweepstakes codes into four pieces. Rocs with stamp A would have piece 1, Rocs with stamp B would have piece 2, etc. This way, you'd have to buy a set of four to complete the code that might generate a winner. Fun, fun, fun.

Do they have the Teebird?



Teebird:___ http://www.herodisc.com/shop/images/DGL-DSC-INO-DX-TBD_1.gif

Firebird:___ http://www.herodisc.com/shop/images/DGL-DSC-INO-DX-FBD_1.gif

Roc:______ http://www.herodisc.com/shop/images/DGL-DSC-INO-LW-ROC_1.gif

Do they have the Teebird?



Teebird:___ http://www.herodisc.com/shop/images/DGL-DSC-INO-DX-TBD_1.gif

Firebird:___ http://www.herodisc.com/shop/images/DGL-DSC-INO-DX-FBD_1.gif

Roc:______ http://www.herodisc.com/shop/images/DGL-DSC-INO-LW-ROC_1.gif



are those the pictures competitors use to clone Innova discs? :eek: :D

You mean one of these: USDGC Partner Pack (http://www.zonedriven.com/proshop/index.php?p=product&id=9&parent=38)


Does the Partner Pack '07 allow for early selection on the Rocs coming up in March or does that priviledge lay with the purchase of the '06 pack? It says that you get a pick at the '07 Roc, I'm just making sure.

You guys made alot of different Rocs last year:
Champion Rancho
Glow Ch Rancho
Star Rancho
SB Ontario

Has the Ontario ever been run in Champion or Glo Champion?



Not sure, but I think it was only run in SB/Star

Dave,
If I might pull you away from all this roc talk for a Sirius matter :D I've got my hands on a SMS finally. The SJLS and the SO(s) feel tackier or grippier compared to the SMS and the SOmega. Is it the mold process, the plastic, or the space between my ears ;) If it is the plastic, will it break in with more grip? I haven't thrown it yet, but I know it will be a fine addition to my bag. Just gott get used to it....



I really don't know what causes the differences between grip feels. It happens not only between discs, but also between people feeling the exact same disc.

Yes, I believe the more you handle the Star plastic, the grippier it gets. If you have very dry hands, you might need a stunt stand in with clammy hands to handle your plastic for you.

Hi Dave,
The Viking is the next disc I'm auditioning for a driver slot in my bag, and I wanted to ask what Innova's plans are for this disc before I try it and take the chance of falling in love with it.

In the 2006 Innova product guide, it says the Viking was slated for Star plastic in 2006. Seeing as that never happened and it has never been a big seller, I wanted to ask you if it is in danger of being discontinued; or were the plans for Star plastic just pushed back?

sleepy



Good questions. The Viking is in no danger of being dropped even though the sales are not strong. It is one of my favorites. Recently we ran a new run of Champion Vikings that, although they are the same as the ones I have been throwing, are different than what an associate had tried out. It could be that the relative unpopularity had to do with a poor batch of Vikings that was out there. When he was describing the Viking from his recollection, it was totally different than my experience. So, we went out and tested the new batch. He liked the new ones alot, and didn't like the old at all.

In light of this, I will be making a Star Viking in the more stable configuration, and we will continue with the new type Champion. I don't have a time frame for production yet unfortunately.

You mean one of these: USDGC Partner Pack (http://www.zonedriven.com/proshop/index.php?p=product&id=9&parent=38)


Does the Partner Pack '07 allow for early selection on the Rocs coming up in March or does that priviledge lay with the purchase of the '06 pack? It says that you get a pick at the '07 Roc, I'm just making sure.



Yes, Neal at Zonedriven says that you get an early selection this March for the Partner Pack 07.

The Viking is awsome on shots that have to go straight. For me it is like a super long mid-range. If the course has tight fairways with either out of bounds on both sides or wooded fairways it is great for it. For me it just keeps going straight as long as released close to flat and even seems pretty forgiving with regards to arm speed. I picked up one after seeing Dave talk about it on here and have had one in my bag every since. If you get a chance pick one up I really do believe this could be one of the most underated discs out there. Also Dave if you could do me a favor and if you decide to discontinue this disc(in champion) let me know so I can buy me some backups :D:D.

Yes, I believe the more you handle the Star plastic, the grippier it gets. If you have very dry hands, you might need a stunt stand in with clammy hands to handle your plastic for you.



Ain't no clammy nothin gettin a hold of my plastic :D :D :D

AviarX. My SOLF and my SJLS are both yellow and my SOLS is white. To me, the grippiness is very much the same and definately to my liking. At the store, all of the SMSs had the same feel. I think there was red, yellow, white, and blue (maybe).

I decided to take my SMS to the office this week. Try and break it in much like a baseball player breaks in a glove or a new game ball. Can't hurt. Besides, nobody in my office understands disc golf anyway. :D

I must have one of the other Vikings, I use mine for long slight turnover shots. Nose down there is very little fade back.

Another vote for simple stamps. Of the 2006 rocs, i prefer the star baby rocs for there stability. I also got a 2007 spectator roc that has a swirl of 2 different colors, thats pretty cool to.

Thanks for asking our opinion on the rocs. So here is mine, I love the Ontario Mold so anything in that mold will make me happy. I have some SB Orcs from Am Worlds that are somewhat see through that I love to death. If you could that going in an Ontario mold I would be in Roc Heaven ;) Also LOVE the idea of the money in the mold. I know it would be hard to do but what a GREAT Disc, sparkles would be pretty sweet too. Something with a simple stamp and sparkles would be nice. My opinions, thanks
Scott

The feedback on the 2007 Rocs is very useful. Please keep it coming.

Ok then, how about running USDGC fundraiser DX Ontarios? Or the Ontario configuration, at least. Or just call it the Roc-L or something like that. I'm sure you could get $20 for those.

Ok then, how about running USDGC fundraiser DX Ontarios? Or the Ontario configuration, at least. Or just call it the Roc-L or something like that. I'm sure you could get $20 for those.



Good idea. I would love me some NEW dx Ontarios!!!

Ontario mold Roc in Glow Champion could be interesting...

Bottom stamp Big Bird?

a bottom stamped champion/star roc would be awesome. i love the 05 SB Rocs. the ontario mold is awesome. the 06 SB Ontarios i didn't like as much because they are not stiff. Ontario's should be stiff plastic. if you run the Ontario in Champion or Star i will buy several, even more if they are stiff.

just my $.02

: ) :

I also liked the '03 bird stamp. Much better than the Baby Roc.

Whamo did some sparkle Frisbee's back in the late 70's early 80's. I like that idea.

Swirl plastic is sweet. The CFR discs Mark has been selling recently have some great color mixing along the rim.

Dave was there any testruns like this HAMMER/GRIFFIN Hybrid?
http://cgi.ebay.com/New-Innova-HAMMER-GRIFFIN-Hybrid-174g-Disc-Golf-Disc_W0QQitemZ200069607789QQihZ010QQcategoryZ79804 QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem



This looks like the Hammerhead, which was a more extreme version of the third generation Hammer. Or it might be the third generation Hammer. I don't remember any Hammer/Griffin mix. The Griffin was a small diameter, overstable, thick nosed disc that flew a bit like a Whippet. The Hammerhead was a roller. The third generation Hammer was large diameter and a little overstable.



I've been speaking to the guy who is trying to sell this disc on Ebay but he won't sell it without knowing what it is first (he doesn't want to tell someone the wrong thing). The rim on this is wider than any of the hammers I own (its between 1.7-1.9).

The Viking is in no danger of being dropped even though the sales are not strong. It is one of my favorites.


Well, I guess that answers my question! :)


Recently we ran a new run of Champion Vikings that, although they are the same as the ones I have been throwing, are different than what an associate had tried out. It could be that the relative unpopularity had to do with a poor batch of Vikings that was out there. When he was describing the Viking from his recollection, it was totally different than my experience. So, we went out and tested the new batch. He liked the new ones alot, and didn't like the old at all.

In light of this, I will be making a Star Viking in the more stable configuration, and we will continue with the new type Champion. I don't have a time frame for production yet unfortunately.


Some very good info in there. I will definitely try and get my hands on a new Champ Viking to put through the paces.

Thanks Dave!


sleepy

I've been speaking to the guy who is trying to sell this disc on Ebay but he won't sell it without knowing what it is first (he doesn't want to tell someone the wrong thing). The rim on this is wider than any of the hammers I own (its between 1.7-1.9).



It sounds like the 3rd generatiion Hammer. Especially if it doesn't have the big bead on the bottom.

I've bought a lot of the Rocs over the years (and especially last year), and I'd like to see a few things:

#1 Make fewer to keep demand/collectibility high. Knowing what I know now about demand for these discs I would have bought fewer last year had I known they wouldn't sell out. Collectibility = Good.

#2 I Like the simple designs, as cool as the bamboo hole is, I don't like the way it looks on a disc, looks hokey imo (fun to play though). The 2001 X-outs, 2002 Star, 2005 Small Stamp with Flags and Stars, and the 2006 Celtic are some of my favorites just because they're simple and clean.

#3 Publish the mold/materials used some place besides this thread. The engineer in me likes documentation and knowing exactly what I'm holding/collecting. This will also make them more collectible since it further differentiates the discs between different stamps.

#4 Use different materials. How about a SS/floppy Roc since some people putt with them, or maybe something very stiff? I'm sure you've got some plastic in the lab that would be fun in a limited run. I'd buy it!

Keep up the good work Dave, I love reading this thread every day, thank you for your time.

Jerry S.

a bottom stamped champion/star roc would be awesome. i love the 05 SB Rocs. the ontario mold is awesome. the 06 SB Ontarios i didn't like as much because they are not stiff. Ontario's should be stiff plastic. if you run the Ontario in Champion or Star i will buy several, even more if they are stiff.

just my $.02

: ) :



Totally agree. I dug the stiffness of the 05, not the floppiness of the 06.

If I had to choose my what my roc would look like, my first suggestion would be a simple stamp. Some of my favorite stamps have been the mini-star like on the old glow rocs, and first run sidewinders, and the ring stamp on some champion gators, or possibly a RoR type stamp.

My second choice would be color mixes. I really dig the swirls in some of the new star plastic. I've also seen some champion plastic that i would describe as starburst colored, with a light color on the flight plate, and a darker color in the rim.

As far as the numbers produced, I don't mind the large volumes because I do buy some to throw, but I think it would be nice if there were a small run of one type/stamp and a larger run of a different type/stamp so both throwers and collectors would be happy.

There will definitely be less USDGC Rocs offered this year.

I am pleasantly surprised that everyone else agrees that simple stamps are better!
My favorite rocs are moderately stiff (not super stiff) champion plastic with simple stamps and heavy weight.
The '05 flag stamps were rad. The celtic stamps were awesome too, just wish they came in champ plastic!

The innova glow star stamp would be SWEEEET! They would need to work something in there to make them "USDGC" but that would be easy.

A bar stamp with USDGC in the middel

I don't want to start rumors with my first post, but I have to ask since you appear to be the guy to ask. I have been told that the Champion Aviar is being discontinued. Is this so? If so all I can say is OH THE HUMANITY!

Dave, I think that it is awesome that you're producing less Rocs this year. Also, I think a good idea would be diversity amongst the Rocs. Produce a simple roc, possibly in low numbers; a detailed stamp for the rest of us; a Roc dedicated to those who intend to throw them; and so on.
And I was wondering how you distributed the Signiture STAR Wraiths. Feldberg told me that he received a box of 25 of his own Wraiths, where did the rest go, and where can I find them now (besides ebay)?

A very simple Anime style stamp would be sweet.
like adiscgolfer throwing or an anime version of the Roc stamp.

-Scott Lewis

I don't want to start rumors with my first post, but I have to ask since you appear to be the guy to ask. I have been told that the Champion Aviar is being discontinued. Is this so? If so all I can say is OH THE HUMANITY!



Technically, yes, but we still have to make some for the Champion 3 Pack. Those will be in the high 60s to low 70s.

Dave, I think that it is awesome that you're producing less Rocs this year. Also, I think a good idea would be diversity amongst the Rocs. Produce a simple roc, possibly in low numbers; a detailed stamp for the rest of us; a Roc dedicated to those who intend to throw them; and so on.
And I was wondering how you distributed the Signiture STAR Wraiths. Feldberg told me that he received a box of 25 of his own Wraiths, where did the rest go, and where can I find them now (besides ebay)?



All of the Champion Champions should have gotten 100 signiture discs.

Dave, any thoughts on a Champion Goblin? :D

Here's where I'm at:
1. I love the Goblin. I use it mostly for approaches and very long putts. Also good as a wind putter. It's a super-accurate disc. For me, like a fast putter.
2. The star-stamped DX Goblins are the best because they have flatter tops (probably due to hot-stamp process), and are perfectly stable.
3. The domey Goblins (regular production stamp) are a bit more understable, when they get a little beat they are similar to an XD.
4. The Goblins beat fairly quickly (even without significant tree hits). The new DX plastic is decent (nice grip!), but since the Goblin is so perfectly stable to begin with, it tends to get understable fairly quickly compared to other, more overstable, approach discs.
5. The Goblin in Star plastic doesn't feel or fly great. Doesn't seem to have nearly as much glide, also these were very domey and kinda understable. This surprised me, because most other discs in Star are more overstable.
6. The Skeeter is too fast. More of a mid-range driver than a fast putter.
7. Classic Roc is a tad bit too overstable for similar usage. Also, I know a lot of player don't like that thick bead for a "touch" disc.

So, I (we?) need a stable Goblin, but with decent glide, in more durable plastic...Champion???

Dave, what are your thoughts on this? I'm not sure how well received the Goblin is. I know you are marketing this as a "beginner" disc, but a Champion version might have wider appeal?

Thanks,

-E

Dave, any thoughts on a Champion Goblin? :D

Here's where I'm at:
1. I love the Goblin. I use it mostly for approaches and very long putts. Also good as a wind putter. It's a super-accurate disc. For me, like a fast putter.
2. The star-stamped DX Goblins are the best because they have flatter tops (probably due to hot-stamp process), and are perfectly stable.
3. The domey Goblins (regular production stamp) are a bit more understable, when they get a little beat they are similar to an XD.
4. The Goblins beat fairly quickly (even without significant tree hits). The new DX plastic is decent (nice grip!), but since the Goblin is so perfectly stable to begin with, it tends to get understable fairly quickly compared to other, more overstable, approach discs.
5. The Goblin in Star plastic doesn't feel or fly great. Doesn't seem to have nearly as much glide, also these were very domey and kinda understable. This surprised me, because most other discs in Star are more overstable.
6. The Skeeter is too fast. More of a mid-range driver than a fast putter.
7. Classic Roc is a tad bit too overstable for similar usage. Also, I know a lot of player don't like that thick bead for a "touch" disc.

So, I (we?) need a stable Goblin, but with decent glide, in more durable plastic...Champion???

Dave, what are your thoughts on this? I'm not sure how well received the Goblin is. I know you are marketing this as a "beginner" disc, but a Champion version might have wider appeal?

Thanks,

-E



The Goblin has been a slower starter, but does have its fans. We are seeing how it plays out in the market before we introduce any other variations. I think we just screwed up with the Star and need to use a different formula. If the sales pick up a little, we will more inclined to do a Champion run.

Hi Dave,

I'm glad your a fan of the Viking--it's been one of my favorites (original acquired in 2005?). I was crushed when I lost it in the lake at USDGC, then elated when the crew recovered it on Sunday, then mortified when I realized it did not make the flight back to CA...

While my original was in the drink, I purchased a second Viking, but this was more stable than the first. I haven't read all the Viking comments, but are the more recent versions going to be slightly more stable?

Thanks!
Steve

Hi Dave,

I'm glad your a fan of the Viking--it's been one of my favorites (original acquired in 2005?). I was crushed when I lost it in the lake at USDGC, then elated when the crew recovered it on Sunday, then mortified when I realized it did not make the flight back to CA...

While my original was in the drink, I purchased a second Viking, but this was more stable than the first. I haven't read all the Viking comments, but are the more recent versions going to be slightly more stable?

Thanks!
Steve



Yes, the new ones should be consistently more stable. Although I never got a hold of a weak one, I was told by my associate that he had tried several and they were no more stable than a Valkyrie. They should be. It should be relatively difficult to turn them over compared to a Valkyrie. My old ones still are stable enough to throw into a wind using just a little hyzer although they're not as stable as they started.

Dave, as far as older Innova drivers go, what are the families of molds that share many physical traits/dimensions...though their flights are different? ie Wraith - Tee Rex - Max

Hey Dave,

As much as I love the new Star Aviar Driver, I find it very difficult to do much driving with it as the Star plastic is very slick and hard to grip, esp. when its really cold outside. So, w/Discraft releasing the FLX plastic is INNOVa going to re-release several Star plastic discs that are grippier and more flexible. Not necessarily FLX style, but where we can actually grip the discs. Everytime I try to do a little driving with the Star Aviar Driver it slips out of my hand like ice. Granted, I love this disc when putting into a headwind (replaced my SS Wizard with it), but its frustrating trying to get longer putts out of it when I cant seem to even grip it.

Hey Dave, it's too cold outside. Can you cancel the run of ice and snow we're having and run some sunshine instead? You da man! :cool:

Hey Dave,

As much as I love the new Star Aviar Driver, I find it very difficult to do much driving with it as the Star plastic is very slick and hard to grip, esp. when its really cold outside. So, w/Discraft releasing the FLX plastic is INNOVa going to re-release several Star plastic discs that are grippier and more flexible. Not necessarily FLX style, but where we can actually grip the discs. Everytime I try to do a little driving with the Star Aviar Driver it slips out of my hand like ice. Granted, I love this disc when putting into a headwind (replaced my SS Wizard with it), but its frustrating trying to get longer putts out of it when I cant seem to even grip it.



This was posted on this thread by Dave on November 16, 2006:


We are running gummy Star Rhynos right now for custom hotstamping or CFR. We can make them heavy or light depending on the mold, but weight should not be much of a problem. We could, at least, put some other gummy models in the same program and see what people think.



Since Dave posted this, the Rhynos are in general release and Star Skeeters were released in a more flexible Star plastic. I believe Spiders and some Sharks were also made in softer Star and Champion plastic.

Innova has had soft plastic available for years, the JK Aviar and Pro Rhyno come to mind. For years, I threw a gummy 150 Champion Valkyrie.

<----
<---- get yourself an Aviar-x for cold weather ;)
<---- (if the Aviar-x is too stable, try an Omega SS)
<----


Hey Dave,

As much as I love the new Star Aviar Driver, I find it very difficult to do much driving with it as the Star plastic is very slick and hard to grip, esp. when its really cold outside. So, w/Discraft releasing the FLX plastic is INNOVa going to re-release several Star plastic discs that are grippier and more flexible. Not necessarily FLX style, but where we can actually grip the discs. Everytime I try to do a little driving with the Star Aviar Driver it slips out of my hand like ice. Granted, I love this disc when putting into a headwind (replaced my SS Wizard with it), but its frustrating trying to get longer putts out of it when I cant seem to even grip it.

Since Dave posted this, the Rhynos are in general release and Star Skeeters were released in a more flexible Star plastic. I believe Spiders and some Sharks were also made in softer Star and Champion plastic.



Is there some way that Innova could assign some kind of name to the soft runs of Star? Like Star Soft or something?

That way soft plastic could be asked for by name, instead of having to scrounge around trying to find it?

Dave, as far as older Innova drivers go, what are the families of molds that share many physical traits/dimensions...though their flights are different? ie Wraith - Tee Rex - Max



Thanks for the edit.:) We started with sister discs like the Raven/Viper, Ram/Python, and all the way back to Roc/XD. The Whippet/Gazelle/Cheetah/Leopard was the first family of drivers followed by the Banshee/Eagle/TeeBird/EXP/Bomb. The next family in line is the largest by far including Firebird, Valyrie, Viking, Sidewinder, Roadrunner, plus others.

Since Dave posted this, the Rhynos are in general release and Star Skeeters were released in a more flexible Star plastic. I believe Spiders and some Sharks were also made in softer Star and Champion plastic.



Is there some way that Innova could assign some kind of name to the soft runs of Star? Like Star Soft or something?

That way soft plastic could be asked for by name, instead of having to scrounge around trying to find it?



Good question. It is really my fault that we have so many confusing varieties out there and we do have a name for Gummy Star. G-Star. In the past we just ran a variety, but we are going to try to segregate more carefully. The problem is people like a wide variety of plastic stiffness. I prefer softer and grippier, and many top pros prefer stiff as possible. We have never segregated the stiffer and softer because we had so many choices already and no room to put them. We are working on that now. I personally want to make a much wider offering of gummy Champion and Star. We started several months ago. We are concentrating on the putters and mid ranges first.

Do they have the Teebird?



Teebird:___ http://www.herodisc.com/shop/images/DGL-DSC-INO-DX-TBD_1.gif

Firebird:___ http://www.herodisc.com/shop/images/DGL-DSC-INO-DX-FBD_1.gif

Roc:______ http://www.herodisc.com/shop/images/DGL-DSC-INO-LW-ROC_1.gif



Those are FANTASTIC - I wish all manufacturers used them!!!

Good question. It is really my fault that we have so many confusing varieties out there and we do have a name for Gummy Star. G-Star. In the past we just ran a variety, but we are going to try to segregate more carefully. The problem is people like a wide variety of plastic stiffness. I prefer softer and grippier, and many top pros prefer stiff as possible. We have never segregated the stiffer and softer because we had so many choices already and no room to put them. We are working on that now. I personally want to make a much wider offering of gummy Champion and Star. We started several months ago. We are concentrating on the putters and mid ranges first.



Cool Dave. That will be great!

Firebird:___ http://www.herodisc.com/shop/images/DGL-DSC-INO-DX-FBD_1.gif




Do they have the Orc? Where are these listed?

sorry, didn't find the orc profile. some random clicking and a little luck will get you where you need...unless you read japanese, then by all means.

Hero Disc Shop (http://www.herodisc.com/shop/index.php?main_page=index)

the search box will accept english, so try there.

<----
<---- get yourself an Aviar-x for cold weather ;)
<---- (if the Aviar-x is too stable, try an Omega SS)
<----


Hey Dave,

As much as I love the new Star Aviar Driver, I find it very difficult to do much driving with it as the Star plastic is very slick and hard to grip, esp. when its really cold outside. So, w/Discraft releasing the FLX plastic is INNOVa going to re-release several Star plastic discs that are grippier and more flexible. Not necessarily FLX style, but where we can actually grip the discs. Everytime I try to do a little driving with the Star Aviar Driver it slips out of my hand like ice. Granted, I love this disc when putting into a headwind (replaced my SS Wizard with it), but its frustrating trying to get longer putts out of it when I cant seem to even grip it.





The Aviar X is my main putter, but I would like to use the Star Aviar Driver in stronger wind conditions as it holds up better. Plus, the Star plastic stabilizes the disc more and it would keep the disc from turning over if I accidentally put a little too much anhyzer on it.

175g 3x JK Aviar-x is my go-to putter & 171g 11x KC Aviar is my go-to approach/putter. I tested the 171g STAR Aviar Driver for about a week & found that, while its hi-speed flight characteristics were much like those discs, it lacked the glide of either, instead dropping like a stone once it slowed down a bit. Some people may like that; I didn't.

My $0.02. :cool:

Harder putters=more consistant release. I took me 5 years to figure this out as well as Blake_T hounding me about it until I switched but it has helped my game tremendously.

I also was using the 3x JK's.

different strokes for different folks. there is more than one right way to get a thing done. i'm sticking with JK's. :p

pm me if you want to get rid of your old JK's ;)

different strokes for different folks. there is more than one right way to get a thing done. i'm sticking with JK's. :p

pm me if you want to get rid of your old JK's ;)






The fact that I only know ONE 1000+ rated golfer who putts with SS putters is enough for me to "see the light" and use the right type of putters and that isn't SS's. :D

The fact that I only know ONE 1000+ rated golfer who putts with SS putters is enough for me to "see the light" and use the right type of putters and that isn't SS's. :D



I gotta agree with Scooter. Putting with a soft putter is like playing pool with a rope. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Although, the best putter I ever saw in person used a Gumbputt.

You're in good company Rob. 1021 rated Micah Dorius is a JK putter. So is Dean Tannock. Steve Brinster, and at least a dozen more of our team players putt with a regular Aviar putter or some other soft putter like a SS or Soft Rhyno.

which team member putts with the soft Rhyno?

You're in good company Rob. 1021 rated Micah Dorius is a JK putter. So is Dean Tannock. Steve Brinster, and at least a dozen more of our team players putt with a regular Aviar putter or some other soft putter like a SS or Soft Rhyno.



All the Innova guys I play with use KC's. Also Micah and Deano are pretty much throw putters.

different strokes for different folks. there is more than one right way to get a thing done. i'm sticking with JK's. :p

pm me if you want to get rid of your old JK's ;)






The fact that I only know ONE 1000+ rated golfer who putts with SS putters is enough for me to "see the light" and use the right type of putters and that isn't SS's. :D




oh really? is there also one kind of guitar great guitarists use or one type of baseball bat great hitters use?

or we can take your argument, but then let's apply it this way: i guess you had better start putting with Aviars fast. How many USDGC's and Open World Championships does the Aviar have verses whatever it is you putt with? ;)

You're in good company Rob. 1021 rated Micah Dorius is a JK putter. So is Dean Tannock. Steve Brinster, and at least a dozen more of our team players putt with a regular Aviar putter or some other soft putter like a SS or Soft Rhyno.



i hear the guy who created the Aero and the Aviar also putts with JK Aviars too -- and though he may not consider putting one of his strengths, i am fairly confident he has more technical knowledge about discs &amp; throwing techniques than Blake T. :p

while there's nothing wrong with preferring hard putters or with a coach (Blake) trying to talk his student (Matt) into using the kind of putter he happens to prefer by stressing the advantages -- it is worth keeping in mind that hard and soft putters have their strengths and weaknesses. Al Schack pointed that out to me during the final round of the Masters at Idlewild last year (he putts with KC Aviars and i use JK's)...

Matt if you believe in hard putters then that belief will only help you when you putt, but bear in mind what is best for you may not be best for player X.

different strokes for different folks. there is more than one right way to get a thing done. i'm sticking with JK's. :p

pm me if you want to get rid of your old JK's ;)






The fact that I only know ONE 1000+ rated golfer who putts with SS putters is enough for me to "see the light" and use the right type of putters and that isn't SS's. :D




oh really? is there also one kind of guitar great guitarists use or one type of baseball bat great hitters use?

or we can take your argument, but then let's apply it this way: i guess you had better start putting with Aviars fast. How many USDGC's and Open World Championships does the Aviar have verses whatever it is you putt with? ;)



Sorry but I don't think the putter gave those guys the World Title. Also I think that "my" outter has won 2 world putting titles in the Open division. :o

I know it may not be better for everyone but it is better for nearly every player who plans on learning to "pitch" putt.

Sorry but I don't think the putter gave those guys the World Title.



okay, now apply that same logic to your suggestion that a hard putter is best for pitch putting. :p
(it's a preference of yours that does not necessarily apply to others)

Matt, if and when you move up to Innova sponsorship you can use KC Aviars ;)

...now back to your regularly scheduled Dave Dunipace Innova expertise...

Sorry but I don't think the putter gave those guys the World Title.



okay, now apply that same logic to your suggestion that a hard putter is best for pitch putting. :p
(it's a preference of yours that does not necessarily apply to others)



I don't think it was the putter(mold) that gave them the win. Then again they all do putt with firm putters and are all basically pitch putters.

Most really good putters are pitch putters and of all the good pitch putters 99% use firm putters.

Wait a second, whats pitch putting?

Wait a second, whats pitch putting?



Pitch putt vs. spin putt (http://www.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?Board=Throwing%20Techniques&amp;Number=19 8646&amp;Searchpage=0&amp;Main=198628&amp;Search=true&amp;#Post198 646)

check out this post too! (http://www.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?Board=Throwing Techniques&amp;Number=200135&amp;Searchpage=0&amp;Main=198628&amp; Search=true&amp;#Post200135)

Steve Brinster putts with classic aviar and occasionally jumps with a ss omege and never has used a jk

isn't that what Dave said :confused:


Dave D:
You're in good company Rob. 1021 rated Micah Dorius is a JK putter. So is Dean Tannock. Steve Brinster, and at least a dozen more of our team players putt with a regular Aviar putter or some other soft putter like a SS or Soft Rhyno.

When it comes to KC's and JK's it is really more of a preference. I have used both putters and I prefer the JK because I can get more control with the disc due to being able to grip it. The KC's were great for mid-shots, but I couldnt grip that thing to save my life, and if I played in cold weather then the disc would constantly bounce out. I picked up a JK and I have never looked back. I am able to do more with the JK than I ever could with the KC. But I dont knock the KC because it is more about preference, and if most prefer stiffer plastic then so be it. I'm sticking with the JK's because I feel more confident in my putting with this disc than other putter.

I too have tried the KC and it just didn't work for my hand. The ones that I tried seemed a little domier & deeper than the JK. The thing that I like about the JK is that it is the perfect balance of stiff and soft and it just feels good in my hand. For me, the JK can get a little slick when my hands are dry. I am currently trying to trasition to the DX Aviar PA just because it feels great and I have really started to like the beadless Aviar. But, when my putting seems to struggle with the DX (during this transition), I still fall back on the good ole' JK.

I think its time for the JK throwers to rise up, and rebel against the KC throwers!!!

I think its time for the JK throwers to rise up, and rebel against the KC throwers!!!



we're throwing the same mold people! but if the KC'ers want war -- JK will win! Lao Tzu: "soft overcomes hard"
water is the softest thing in the world, yet overcomes the hardest (think grand canyon!) :D

which team member putts with the soft Rhyno?



There are a couple, but one is Michael Johansen who putts with a soft Rhyno and throws a KC Aviar as well.

Are there any plans to make a KC Pro Aviar "like" driver in Star?

Something that will take the speed and snap of the KC Pro?

I do not know why, but a KC Pro Aviar will take a lot of wind and snap without flipping when new.

we're throwing the same mold people!



Good point Rob. We make the same mold in several types of plastic not only for grip preferences, but also the way the various materials act on the chains. We also make many different putters for different sized hands, flight characterists, etc. One putter does not fit all, though the KC Aviar is our most popular team putter. At least three of our team members have used Birdies. Nolan Grider uses an Aero. Different strokes for different folks.

Sweaty hand people tend to prefer stiffer plastic. Dry hand people tend to prefer softer stickier plastic. Also soft plastic tends to grab chains on the right side of the target and grab and roll off the chains on the left RH. Stiff plastic hits the chains softer, especially on the left side, but is more likely to experience a blow through. Pole hits are deader head on for a stiffy.

Are there any plans to make a KC Pro Aviar "like" driver in Star?

Something that will take the speed and snap of the KC Pro?

I do not know why, but a KC Pro Aviar will take a lot of wind and snap without flipping when new.



We have made the Star Aviar Driver from the same mold.

I actually carry 3 versions of the Aviar with me when i play. I have a Classic Aviar for driving turnover/hyzerflip shots, My JK for long distance jump putting and driving in the winter, and a NO date stamped KC pro Aviar for Putting and also for Hyzer drives and airbounce approaches. I will putt with the classic as well, but I actually prefer the feel of the kc..
So I guess i'm a stiff plastic aviar guy, but I do enjoy the JK's for long distance spin putting.

-Scott Lewis

we're throwing the same mold people!



Sweaty hand people tend to prefer stiffer plastic. Dry hand people tend to prefer softer stickier plastic. Also soft plastic tends to grab chains on the right side of the target and grab and roll off the chains on the left RH. Stiff plastic hits the chains softer, especially on the left side, but is more likely to experience a blow through. Pole hits aredeader head on for a stiffy.



Ok here is what I have noticed since switching. The stiffer putters do not cut through much at all. Heck at 05' AM worlds everyone on the leadercard except me was using a stiff putter and they had a lot less cut throughs and especially bounce outs. That may seem strange but a SS putter will hit directly on the pole "coil" and then rebound back out of the basket while a stiff putter will deflect up if it is a little nose up or down if it is coming in nose down. The ony time a stiff putter bouces out is when it hit almost perfectly square.

Most of these spits/bounceouts/cutthroughs occur on baskets other than the Discatcher(my favorite basket I get to play on in tournaments) and that Gatewasy thing. The fact is that if you hit the weak spot on a Mach III it will probably go through no matter what putter it is.

The benifit I have seen from players who switch or even try a stiffer putter is that they hit the "sweet spot" more often than when they use a SS putter due to less friction on the release. I used a Omega SS for my 1st year and then a 3x JK for the next three and I was way more stubborn about switching then you guys are but I would still advise that you try one out for a week.

Matt, i can appreciate your experience and what works for you -- but even so with my feel preferences a JK is hands down ( :D ) better than a stiffer version. if it doesn't feel right in my hands i'm not going to putt as well with it.

Al Schack pointed out to me after i had a decent putt "bounce out" low off the pole that JK's have more bounce outs (i asked if he thought i would be better off with KC's and he pointed out it is a trade off -- KC's have more spit thrus (later his KC demonstrated that for me). Dave makes that same point upthread. knowing what the strengths are of the type of putter you're using should help mitigate the drawbacks.

if you're sold on stiffer by emphasizing the advantages it brings (and because Blake recommends them) and because you can deal with the feel -- go for it. just a warning though -- as you get older your hands will become more and more dry LOL

btw, i also take pride in throwing Juliana's signature disc. in the videos i have seen her in, she is never happy with herself over her shot no matter how good. i admire that :cool:

it's weird how in a game where i am never satisfied and often disappointed with my play, i have off-the-charts fun