i came across and bought a star max in the grippier plastic. not gummy, just better grip, comparable to flx, just not as bendable.

Back 2 the matter at hand Innova Discs, Hey Dave thaks for the Champion Panthers coming back any plans for them n DX, think they would be nice with the new DX plastic.



No plans for DX at this time. We do still have some DX Gremlins which are a more stable version of a Panther.

Hi Dave, Has there been any dx Xcals made besides the Japan Open ones for the sponsored players? Will there be a regular run of them (dx xcals)? Thank you for your time.



It would probably be a good idea at some point, but we don't have anything scheduled at this point.

Dave,
When will the lighter Stars discs made with the softer grippy Star plastic hit retailers? What molds will be released first? Are Xcals on the list?



We had a slight setback with that. Learning curve thing. We will start with the Boss. We have already run sample Bosses that were successful. XCals are definitely on the list along with all the very long range drivers. Some of the softer grippier stuff has been out for a while, just not the lighter very long range discs. Probably around March 1 for the start of the new stuff.

Does the Boss have the widest rim allowed by the rules?

In other words, will there be a wider rimmed driver than the Boss produced by Innova in the future?

If I remember correctly the limits allow for a little wider than the Boss but I remember Dave saying the Boss might be the widest Innova goes. I don't think i'd find a use for a disc with a wider rim than the Boss. Even very understable during high speed flight my Boss fades very fast when it runs out of gas and I find that even though the Boss moves faster through the air it still achieves about the same overall distance as my slower drivers with longer turn and glide.

Hey dave love the help and insight u give all of us but my buddy told me that the groove is gonna be a beast on steroids and wil be out around the Spring of this year any trust in that

Hey dave love the help and insight u give all of us but my buddy told me that the groove is gonna be a beast on steroids and wil be out around the Spring of this year any trust in that



That's not too bad a discryption. Some of the Grooves will be a little more stable, some not. Initial protos should be available around Feb 2. Probably a few weeks after that for the main run.

will they have the first run star on it and be most likely in champion plastic correct

Hi Dave,

I just got a batch of the new bottom stamped Star Destroyers a couple of days ago from CFD that read S/DS on the bottom. Are they made with new Star plastic and/or the new stabilzation process? They look and feel different enough for me to ask this question.

Thanks, Mike

will they have the first run star on it and be most likely in champion plastic correct



Yes.

Hi Dave,

I just got a batch of the new bottom stamped Star Destroyers a couple of days ago from CFD that read S/DS on the bottom. Are they made with new Star plastic and/or the new stabilzation process? They look and feel different enough for me to ask this question.

Thanks, Mike



I don't think so. They might be a partial mix though.

Does the Boss have the widest rim allowed by the rules?

In other words, will there be a wider rimmed driver than the Boss produced by Innova in the future?



The Boss is .1 cm away from the max allowable. Dave said that this is as big as Innova will make. I only half believe him ;).

Is Innova east accessible to the public? I'm going to be able to get pretty close to there traveling and wanted to know whether I would be able to stop by and potentially do some plastic hunting!

Also, can the gummy 11x rocs be found in weights heavier than 174? That seems to be the max I've found so far.

Thanks in advance Dave,
Trey

Is Innova east accessible to the public? I'm going to be able to get pretty close to there traveling and wanted to know whether I would be able to stop by and potentially do some plastic hunting!

No, it is not open to the public.

Thanks for the response, lol that puts a damper on my trip to SC!

Dave,

Does the CFR Archangel have the same stability rating as the DX version. I had purchased 2 from the MSDGC 2-3 years ago and the disc had the stability of a Firebird so I just want to know if they were freaks or something.

Also what is the lightest you can make Glow Teebirds and Sidewinders? I know the glow weighting agent makes things difficult to make lighter so just wondering?

Dave,

Does the CFR Archangel have the same stability rating as the DX version. I had purchased 2 from the MSDGC 2-3 years ago and the disc had the stability of a Firebird so I just want to know if they were freaks or something.

Also what is the lightest you can make Glow Teebirds and Sidewinders? I know the glow weighting agent makes things difficult to make lighter so just wondering?



CFR Archangels are more high speed stable. Glow TeeBirds and Glow Sidewinders can be made down to just about any weight in DX glow, but we tend to make them from 165g up. The Champion glow are the ones that are weight restricted.

Dave is the Glow CFR Eagle the X version, I notice you have the Glow CFR Eagle-L and Glow CFR Eagle listed on the CFR page, Innova CFR Program (http://www.innovadiscs.com/cfr/products.htm).

Our tournament supporters want to know because they want the Eagle-X for fundraiser discs!

Is Innova east accessible to the public? I'm going to be able to get pretty close to there traveling and wanted to know whether I would be able to stop by and potentially do some plastic hunting!

No, it is not open to the public.



is there a place in or around charlotte that has a fairly large disc selection to look thru?

Dave is the Glow CFR Eagle the X version, I notice you have the Glow CFR Eagle-L and Glow CFR Eagle listed on the CFR page, Innova CFR Program (http://www.innovadiscs.com/cfr/products.htm).

Our tournament supporters want to know because they want the Eagle-X for fundraiser discs!



We have some X type, but not many. At most we have about 175 left, if the bottom box was also X type. If not, we only have about 50. The ones I saw were 170 172.

Is Innova east accessible to the public? I'm going to be able to get pretty close to there traveling and wanted to know whether I would be able to stop by and potentially do some plastic hunting!

No, it is not open to the public.






is there a place in or around charlotte that has a fairly large disc selection to look thru?



Old Town Outfitters
153 East White Street
Rock Hill

I was wondering if you knew what the heaviest weight the 11x KC Pro Gummy Rocs could be run in? So Far I can't find anything over 174.

I was wondering if you knew what the heaviest weight the 11x KC Pro Gummy Rocs could be run in? So Far I can't find anything over 174.



Rocs can be run up to 180gms. I don't know how the weight distribution went for that run, but we usually try to make as many heavies as possible.

Hi Dave,

I picked up a few Night Shift Destroyers from Mark and have had the opportunity to use them in some 20 - 40 mph winds. I really like the way they fly in heavy winds. They held their line for me quite well.

Anyway, will these NS Destroyers make it to regular production runs? Or do I just need to take extra care not to loose the ones I have?

Thanks for you time.

Is Innova east accessible to the public? I'm going to be able to get pretty close to there traveling and wanted to know whether I would be able to stop by and potentially do some plastic hunting!

No, it is not open to the public.



is there a place in or around charlotte that has a fairly large disc selection to look thru?



There are others, but these are the largest.

Infinity's End
5119 South Blvd.
Charlotte, NC

Play It Again Sports
8332-205 Pineville Matthews Rd.
Charlotte, NC

Hi Dave,

I picked up a few Night Shift Destroyers from Mark and have had the opportunity to use them in some 20 - 40 mph winds. I really like the way they fly in heavy winds. They held their line for me quite well.

Anyway, will these NS Destroyers make it to regular production runs? Or do I just need to take extra care not to loose the ones I have?

Thanks for you time.

We are planning on using the same technique for Champion Destroyers. For Star, we are using a different material and technique. They won't be quite as stable, but probably just as stable as a normal Destroyer. Thanks for the feedback.

Dave,
What was the first year the Starfire mold was run?
I have a light red oddly colored Starfire which feels very CE like with the little Ice Bowl Monster stamp from 04'?

Dave,
What was the first year the Starfire mold was run?
I have a light red oddly colored Starfire which feels very CE like with the little Ice Bowl Monster stamp from 04'?



The Starfire was introduced in 2003 according to PDGA records.

Dave- I had a question about the echostar xcals. I got a first run star stamp in the mint green thinking it was echostar plastic but the back just says xc. I thought the echo star ones were marked e-xc. Could this just be a labeling error or did you make regular star ones in the mint green also?

the star stamped ones were marked *xc

Dave- I had a question about the echostar xcals. I got a first run star stamp in the mint green thinking it was echostar plastic but the back just says xc. I thought the echo star ones were marked e-xc. Could this just be a labeling error or did you make regular star ones in the mint green also?



Just not marked. The mint green were echo.

Dave,

Why was the original CE plastic discontinued? I once heard that is was because the plastic is indestructible, and Innova was losing sales because of it. What's the real story behind this, and will we ever see this beautiful creation again?

Thanks in advance.

-Travis

Dave:

Why hasn't Innova ever gone to just stamping the name of the disc on the disc rather than hand writing it?



could this just be a labeling error or did you make regular star ones in the mint green also?



Just not marked. The mint green were echo.

[/QUOTE]

Dave,

Why was the original CE plastic discontinued? I once heard that is was because the plastic is indestructible, and Innova was losing sales because of it. What's the real story behind this, and will we ever see this beautiful creation again?

Thanks in advance.

-Travis



it's my understanding that the rigidity was borderline in terms of PDGA disc regulations, and once informed by the PDGA that much of the CE discs were borderline on that spec -- Innova voluntarily moved more into the 'safe' zone... that said, i'll hang up and listen for Dave's response... :D

True, true. Those first run Fl's and T's were off the charts. You could spend a day throwing them against a cement wall and they wouldn't change. The risk was always that if the PDGA required re-certification they would never pass. No flex.

i dont buy it. some runs of that CE stuff were more flexable than alot of the dx that comes out today. products and markets are usually driven by sales and consumption.

Not sure but I think they couldn't get the plastic any more.

Dave, I saw a picture of the groove with the stats 13, 6, -2, 1. Are those numbers acurate? If so it would seem to be a dramatic leap in technology. Only 1 for low speed fade and a glide of 6? Seems hard to believe but I can't wait to try it out.

Not sure but I think they couldn't get the plastic any more.



We could get the plastic with the same name, but it wasn't the same. The manufacturer apparently changed the formula. It was softer and not as scratch resistant.

Dave, I saw a picture of the groove with the stats 13, 6, -2, 1. Are those numbers acurate? If so it would seem to be a dramatic leap in technology. Only 1 for low speed fade and a glide of 6? Seems hard to believe but I can't wait to try it out.



The fade number should probably be 2, instead of 1. Initial testing was a little different than the main run. Fade numbers for the wide rim discs are more difficult to pin down as they are very dependent on nose angle at release. Any nose up will make the disc appear to be more overstable and nose down will appear to have less fade and stability.

Not sure but I think they couldn't get the plastic any more.



We could get the plastic with the same name, but it wasn't the same. The manufacturer apparently changed the formula. It was softer and not as scratch resistant.



Another plastic question...So they definetely changed the formula @ the time CE was discontinued. Are they continually changing it, or are the other plastic variations different blends that you guys have experimented with? Just wondering for example why an 11x Champ Teebird doesn't feel quite the same as a new one, etc.

Also, did you ever get any feedback from the polymer manufacturer as to why the change in formula?

Dave, I saw a picture of the groove with the stats 13, 6, -2, 1. Are those numbers acurate? If so it would seem to be a dramatic leap in technology. Only 1 for low speed fade and a glide of 6? Seems hard to believe but I can't wait to try it out.



The fade number should probably be -2, instead of -1.



Sorry. But do you mean the fade should be 2 instead of 1?

Another plastic question...So they definetely changed the formula @ the time CE was discontinued. Are they continually changing it, or are the other plastic variations different blends that you guys have experimented with? Just wondering for example why an 11x Champ Teebird doesn't feel quite the same as a new one, etc.

Also, did you ever get any feedback from the polymer manufacturer as to why the change in formula?



Every batch of candy type plastic might be slightly different. It gets changed all the time. Yes we do also experiment, but that is sometimes to make up for the manufacturer change.

ok that all could be true...but of course all the guys who through old shcool CE are still bitter and have conspiracy theories... i would personally pay 20-25 $ per disc of CE material.
i work in manufacturing..if the supplier changes on me, i have options! for one he owes me an explanation (detail) as to why and what changed. also you guys are not the smallest order he has, im sure you are a good spending customer and it seems he would want to keep your blend of plastic just the way you wanted it. that's called customer service and good business. ............
And by no means am i trying to argue...but you hear Golfers just like all of us. You know how bad All the Golfers want CE...look at how much people pay for CE....looking out how its gone and now only a traded commodity....it feeds into all the conspiracies that you guys just want to play the Supply and Demand game. I know your a business but if this is true it goes against most DiscGolf Ideals about getting away from that Corporate Crap and Political game..
Are you telling me Its Not Possible to create CE plastic as we used to Know it???

I know a sponsored Pro who said he saw an Innova Wharehouse full....yes FULL of CE disc???

I know a sponsored Pro who said he saw an Innova Wharehouse full....yes FULL of CE disc???



AREA 51?

Are you telling me Its Not Possible to create CE plastic as we used to Know it???



Yes, we can't get or make the same exact formula. We have tried multiple times. And, if we had a "warehouse full of CE discs", we would sell them. Warehouse space is very expensive in California.

I have been on this forum 5+ years and I have asked and read and listened to all of the conspiracy arguments. Here's my take:

Innova first of all is not a major buyer. Think about all the industries that use plastic that are 100x the size of DG. Not too much clout.

Second, Innova had no idea that CE plastic would come to be so revered. They probably were nervous that no one would throw it initially because it was so different and it was expensive with a lot of waste parts. I bet in a way they were glad when the formula changed because it meant less waste and more consistency.

Third, now that time has passed it is easy to see that plastic just continually changes and fluxes formula-speaking. Some flies better than others. Every run of CE was different, and the plastic that came out during the transition from CE to Champ is even revered today (original proline, 11x firebirds and teebirds).

Lastly I ask, is CE really better? Sure it flies differently from other plastics, but so does every other plastic. Some people got very used to those discs and how they fly, so they don't want to change. Does this mean these discs make them better players? I don't think so.

I think that if Innova could make CE, then they would for CFR or something similar to fill the lingering demand. I don't think that Dave or Harold, etc. believe CE is overall the best material for Innova or the players. It wasn't very grippy, was very rigid, and didn't fill out the molds well. Let it go...

Hey Dave!

Have the current run of star destroyers (with the bottom stamp) had the same process done to them as the night shift destroyers? If not, when will they be available?

I know a sponsored Pro who said he saw an Innova Wharehouse full....yes FULL of CE disc???



did he mention that was several years ago? :D


[discspeed:] now that time has passed it is easy to see that plastic just continually changes and fluxes formula-speaking. Some flies better than others. Every run of CE was different, and the plastic that came out during the transition from CE to Champ is even revered today (original proline, 11x firebirds and teebirds).

Lastly I ask, is CE really better? Sure it flies differently from other plastics, but so does every other plastic. Some people got very used to those discs and how they fly, so they don't want to change. Does this mean these discs make them better players? I don't think so.



dude, it's the STAMP!!!! while the blend was special too, that stamp was absolutely awesome and we need it back! it actually fosters confidence in the psyche of the thrower! (for those who agree with that i am serious, for those who think that's nuts: i'm just kidding) ... maybe a little (slight) tweak could be done to the stamp to serve the collectors and oldschool CE diehards. seriously though, i would love to see that stamp brought back!

Lastly I ask, is CE really better?



No.

It worked well with some molds.

I think the best plastic is hard Star and they are eliminating that. HAHAHAHAHA!!! I have a Wraith that is two years old and still beefy. How long should a disc last?

I know a sponsored Pro who said he saw an Innova Wharehouse full....yes FULL of CE disc???



It wasn't a warehouse in the true sense. It was my storage garage. And there were only a few cases in there. I'm thinking with the old Innova bar stamp signs I have hanging in there that maybe he got confused and thought it was the Innova warehouse. Only 30 minutes away you know and he wasn't from around here.

As for the original CE not being grippy. You're wrong. The original CE plastic had that powder residue on it, somewhat similar to the old regular Discraft plastic, that made it grippy. I've got a 1st run Valk and a 2002 ROC still in the bag that has this residue on them. You can still to this day wipe it away, but it always comes back. Grippy after 8 years.

Dave,

On stability ratings. I have always wondered about the ratings of certain discs. I know we shouldnt put too much into the ratings but for example. How can a classic roc (I'm a huge fan) which is to me one of if not the straightest non putter disc have a low speed fade of 2 and a teebird has the same. A TL has a 1. Do you perhaps apply a different standard to rating slower discs? Or maybe is it just that things have changed over time and ratings have not been updated? Because there is no way a classic roc has more low speed fade than a TL. By the way, please don't ever stop making the classic roc.

Hey Dave!

Have the current run of star destroyers (with the bottom stamp) had the same process done to them as the night shift destroyers? If not, when will they be available?



No Star Destroyers except the NS type had the process done to them and won't. That process (more stable) will be done in the next Champion Destroyer run. The Star Destroyers will be run with a new Star and Starlight mix. Hopefully the Star Destroyers will be made down to the low 160s. The new Star blend may result in the lower weights being more stable than the higher weights. The Starlight Bosses we made were nicely stable at 166gms and lower in X parts.

Dave,

On stability ratings. I have always wondered about the ratings of certain discs. I know we shouldnt put too much into the ratings but for example. How can a classic roc (I'm a huge fan) which is to me one of if not the straightest non putter disc have a low speed fade of 2 and a teebird has the same. A TL has a 1. Do you perhaps apply a different standard to rating slower discs? Or maybe is it just that things have changed over time and ratings have not been updated? Because there is no way a classic roc has more low speed fade than a TL. By the way, please don't ever stop making the classic roc.



Yes, the numbers for the putters and midranges don't really compare to the drivers when it comes to fade, especially. The fade numbers are for comparison across the charts from left to right, but don't correspond well when going between speed ranges. Speed number are for up and down the chart comparisons. Glide and high speed stability are with respect to the speed and range the discs are expected to be operated in.

Dave,

On stability ratings. I have always wondered about the ratings of certain discs. I know we shouldnt put too much into the ratings but for example. How can a classic roc (I'm a huge fan) which is to me one of if not the straightest non putter disc have a low speed fade of 2 and a teebird has the same. A TL has a 1. Do you perhaps apply a different standard to rating slower discs? Or maybe is it just that things have changed over time and ratings have not been updated? Because there is no way a classic roc has more low speed fade than a TL. By the way, please don't ever stop making the classic roc.



Yes, the numbers for the putters and midranges don't really compare to the drivers when it comes to fade, especially. The fade numbers are for comparison across the charts from left to right, but don't correspond well when going between speed ranges. Speed number are for up and down the chart comparisons. Glide and high speed stability are with respect to the speed and range the discs are expected to be operated in.



Ahhhh. Thanks Dave. That explains a lot. So in addition to the stability being relative to the speed, the glide is as well. A speed 7 disc with a glide of 5 does not actually have the same glide per se as a speed 12 disc with a glide of 5 huh. Thanks again for the attention you give to all of the questions on here.

ok Disc Speed: CE is amazing and the disc stay stable original for longer and are way grippy for "durable" plastic. The Teebirds, leapords are way better in CE. It is the best plastic ever...Star or Champ doesnt come close
And RICKB, your right? you must know who im talking about b/c it was not in Cali....but in NC so it must have just been your garage....what was your address again????....lol J/K dont tell me ill jack you.
My father who makes up Plastic equations for EXXOn Mobil told me if we brought a CE disc to a manufacture of plastic that they could with in 99% accuracy determine the excact plastic and even in todays plastic market could re-plicate it. So we could have CE if Innova wanted or desired to produce it. In the universe we live in with plastic it is Possible. (we can't get or make the same exact formula. We have tried multiple times)

Thats fine....if innova want one day someone will find the consistancy of CE and if Innova is not being a Patent Snobb will re-produce it.

hey innova just released 500 eco star grooves!! only 500 made!!! black and orange 175,170and 172 look on ebay!! Collector alert only 500 grooves made eco star!!!!

hey innova just released 500 eco star grooves!! only 500 made!!! black and orange 175,170and 172 look on ebay!! Collector alert only 500 grooves made eco star!!!!




The Echo Star Groove is being sold for the Green Country Open NT event. Collectors Alert! There were only 500 Echo Star Grooves stamped with THIS event hot stamp. This does not mean only 500 were made.

Thats fine....if innova want one day someone will find the consistancy of CE and if Innova is not being a Patent Snobb will re-produce it.



There are no patents on plastic formulas with respect to the DG companies. I've thrown Z plastic Speed Demons...Also, if it were that simple another company would have made CE. The number of x-outs with that plastic would certainly discourage anyone from production even if they found the plastic. I'll bet Dave M. from Gateway has been down that avenue.

I still think CE is totally over-romanticized. I'll admit that the TLs and Leopards in the CE plastic flew very different and better than in any plastic since. I think this has to do with the density of the plastic and the shrinkage during cooling. This produced TLs and Leopards with more aerodynamic profiles. Unfortunately, the plastic density and how it cooled probably had a lot to do with the high number of X parts.

Here is the final reason I don't believe in a conspiracy on the part of Innova to purposefully quit production on CE discs because they were afraid that they were "too good" and that people would not need to keep buying them and it would hurt sales...I know myself. I, like many others on here,and thousands of others around the nation, am OCD about discs. If I believe that something is worth it, I'll insanely buy more than any contingency plan would ever suggest I need. No disc could ever be too good to form a loophole in my zany habit. People always lose discs, want to try a different color, try a different weight, try a different run, try a disc that doesn't feel quite like the rest, and on, and on, forever. No one can present me with any real logic to the contrary to make me believe for a second that CE plastic would have ever have hurt sales. So there is absolutely no motivation on the part of Innova to purposefully halt production for any reasons related to fear of loss of demand.

And if it were a durability issue, why would Innova continue to make old Pro and current Champion? Stuff lasts just as long, longer than some runs of CE.

Thats fine....if innova want one day someone will find the consistancy of CE and if Innova is not being a Patent Snobb will re-produce it.



There are no patents on plastic formulas with respect to the DG companies. I've thrown Z plastic Speed Demons...Also, if it were that simple another company would have made CE. The number of x-outs with that plastic would certainly discourage anyone from production even if they found the plastic. I'll bet Dave M. from Gateway has been down that avenue.

I still think CE is totally over-romanticized. I'll admit that the TLs and Leopards in the CE plastic flew very different and better than in any plastic since. I think this has to do with the density of the plastic and the shrinkage during cooling. This produced TLs and Leopards with more aerodynamic profiles. Unfortunately, the plastic density and how it cooled probably had a lot to do with the high number of X parts.

Here is the final reason I don't believe in a conspiracy on the part of Innova to purposefully quit production on CE discs because they were afraid that they were "too good" and that people would not need to keep buying them and it would hurt sales...I know myself. I, like many others on here,and thousands of others around the nation, am OCD about discs. If I believe that something is worth it, I'll insanely buy more than any contingency plan would ever suggest I need. No disc could ever be too good to form a loophole in my zany habit. People always lose discs, want to try a different color, try a different weight, try a different run, try a disc that doesn't feel quite like the rest, and on, and on, forever. No one can present me with any real logic to the contrary to make me believe for a second that CE plastic would have ever have hurt sales. So there is absolutely no motivation on the part of Innova to purposefully halt production for any reasons related to fear of loss of demand.



This is correct. There was some initial concern about the stiffness, and we did try different mixes to soften it up at times. There was some initial concern about repeat sales, but that went away quickly as the discs kept selling and selling. We continued to make the CE until the plastic changed. When the plastic changed we made repeated efforts to re-obtain it. We still look for new and better plastic. We have come across many plastics that look better, feel better, and run better, but we have never seen a plastic since that was as durable as the original CE. There is nothing more to the story other than fantasy.

Thanks Dave for answering my questions. I love Innova they are my favorite and always will be, becuase you guys always push Technology and put out the best disc.
Sorry im upset b/c i swore to my-self not to fall in love with CE and a friend Gave me a CE Leapord.....i love it and im scared to lose it...i cant afford 75-100$ bones for a disc....
oh well Thanks guys and Discpeed!!!!!!! LOL

You can get CE Leopards on Ebay for a lot less than $75 as long as you buy them used. You shouldn't fall in love with boutique plastic unless you can replace it.

Perhaps Dave can use the stabilizing process on the Leopard to make them come out flat and stable like the old CE Leopards...

"Perhaps Dave can use the stabilizing process on the Leopard" ...........that would be cool?
is that an option Dave ????

You shouldn't fall in love with boutique plastic unless you can replace it".......thats like telling a 'CRACk HeAd', not to like the STUFF too much cause it will cost you an arm and a leg.........one throw with the stable flat grippy leapord...i parked the second hole i threw it on...and it feelsssss nice.....

"Perhaps Dave can use the stabilizing process on the Leopard" ...........that would be cool?
is that an option Dave ????



That is an option. Maybe not a bad idea for a special run.

Dave I would stock up on those special run leopards.

I gotta great name in IMHO for a new disc, i was hoping for an understable destroyer type disc, and my name for this disc is a Pteradacyl. Kinda follows the dinosaur them of the t-rex. You guys came up with the name the "groove"

What do you think of that Pteradacyl for a future disc?

I know a Norcal Grand Master that would be stoked with that name!!!!!!!!!! KAW!!!!!!!

I'm a little disappointed noone has seconded my request that the old CE hotstamp be ressurected... Would it be possible to use that hotstamp (or one with one very minor small 'update' to differentiate it from the originals) for a CFR disc if someone requested it Dave? how about if a bunch of plastic lovers all pitched in to get some made as a special run? :D

Dave I would stock up on those special run leopards.

I gotta great name in IMHO for a new disc, i was hoping for an understable destroyer type disc, and my name for this disc is a Pteradacyl. Kinda follows the dinosaur them of the t-rex. You guys came up with the name the "groove"

What do you think of that Pteradacyl for a future disc?



Pteranodon and Pteradactyl would be cool.

I know a Norcal Grand Master that would be stoked with that name!!!!!!!!!! KAW!!!!!!!



Ya, Dave's gonna make it for me if I win a world title. 3rd place isn't good enough. :( KaKawwwww!

I always jokingly ask what my group member are going to use for their tee shots, I say time to pull out the Pteradactyl and most people agree that is a cool name for a disk. A long flying disc with alot of glide like the wing of a huge Pteradactyl......

I'm a little disappointed noone has seconded my request that the old CE hotstamp be ressurected... Would it be possible to use that hotstamp (or one with one very minor small 'update' to differentiate it from the originals) for a CFR disc if someone requested it Dave? how about if a bunch of plastic lovers all pitched in to get some made as a special run? :D



You're right, the CE style hotstamp is the coolest looking one I've ever seen. Also, I like how the custom stamped tournament discs left that on there and stamped it right over the middle. I've seen bowling green, Octoberfriz, and Halloween Classic like that now.

That is an option. Maybe not a bad idea for a special run.



Stableized Leopards would be awesome. I would buy a few.

i agree i would love to try stabelized leapords...i would love to see if it works..........
and why are you guys not using the CE stamp...best stamp ever...is there a reason?

Probably to aviod confusion

Probably to aviod confusion



correct

Dave, I see the groove is in star and champion now, is there any difference in they're flights? Also I guess the star version is CFR? Thanks

Dave, I see the groove is in star and champion now, is there any difference in they're flights? Also I guess the star version is CFR? Thanks



We haven't made straight Star yet. Just Echo Star, which is slightly different. The Echo Stars tested slightly longer flying than the regular Champion, with more glide and about the same turn.

I have thrown both the champ and echo star, the echo seems to be a bit less stable and does have a longer glide.

Dave,
Any thoughts on a 20th Anniv SM Roc release like was done with the Aviar gold grid stamp?

Hi Dave,

I have been shopping around for Zephyrs in expectation of playing some Super Class events. So far, all I've seen are weights in the 140's or in the 190's. Have you run weights in-between? If so, what proportion of the discs do you run in these weights and if not, why not?

Thanks!!

Dave,
Any thoughts on a 20th Anniv SM Roc release like was done with the Aviar gold grid stamp?



Not a bad idea. We hadn't thought of it. Thanks.

Hi Dave,

I have been shopping around for Zephyrs in expectation of playing some Super Class events. So far, all I've seen are weights in the 140's or in the 190's. Have you run weights in-between? If so, what proportion of the discs do you run in these weights and if not, why not?

Thanks!!



We only ran a box or so of 180 to 189. We didn't know what the demand would be. We can always put the mold back in. The only other weight that had demand was 160 for WFDF.

Dave,
I noticed a new special run of super soft XD's Mark was selling at DGV. Is this a plastic similar to the old SE Rhynos or 3X Aviar-x's? If it's successful what other discs may you run with the blend?

Dave,
I noticed a new special run of super soft XD's Mark was selling at DGV. Is this a plastic similar to the old SE Rhynos or 3X Aviar-x's? If it's successful what other discs may you run with the blend?



It's not really a run yet. Just a marketing sample. He can't have more than a box. It is similar to 3X JK. He has two versions. One is even softer than the 3X JK version. If it is successful, we plan on making an Aviar Putter version and a XD version. We will also use it for JK Aviars,Rhynos, and Pigs.

i dont buy it. some runs of that CE stuff were more flexable than alot of the dx that comes out today. products and markets are usually driven by sales and consumption.



That's cool. Don't ever buy a 1st run red TL or FL. Just let me know when you see them! /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
I'm telling you, I've seen those so scratched up that there was nothing left of the stamp and they still flew true to form.

How can you tell a CFR Teerex from a Teerex?

How can you tell a CFR Teerex from a Teerex?



The CFR TeeRex is Champion exclusively.

Quote:

Dave,
Any thoughts on a 20th Anniv SM Roc release like was done with the Aviar gold grid stamp?

I would certainly second this idea. when can i pick mine up?

How can you tell a CFR Teerex from a Teerex?



The CFR TeeRex is Champion exclusively.



I meant how can you tell a CFR Star Teerex-X from a Star Teerex?

My Star Teerex's are marked S.TRX and my Star Teerex's are marked TRX. Is this correct?

Are all Champ CFR Teerex's the T-Rex-X?

I've had a few Champion TR's. There was a run if 140 and a test run of 13 (I think)

Dave,
What flight ratings would you give the Phenix? What would it compare to?

So Dave. I was just noticing that according to the innova website the Boss and the Groove have the same exact flight statistics. I hadnt realized that and was under the impression that the Groove would be less overstable than the Boss. Could you compare the two and explain the difference if any. Sorry if already asked.

Now that I look at it. Is a Boss really supposed to be more understable at high speed than a destroyer? I know you explained that different speed discs are on a different scale but 12 to 13 isnt that different. In my experience my Bosses don't have as much high speed turn as my destroyers.

How can you tell a CFR Teerex from a Teerex?



The CFR TeeRex is Champion exclusively.



I meant how can you tell a CFR Star Teerex-X from a Star Teerex?

My Star Teerex's are marked S.TRX and my Star Teerex's are marked TRX. Is this correct?

Are all Champ CFR Teerex's the T-Rex-X?



The T-Rex-X doesn't exist any more. It had a concave bevel compared with regular TR. All Champ TeeRex's are the improved version, but not the X.

Dave,
What flight ratings would you give the Phenix? What would it compare to?



I don't know if I could remember it well enough to come up with a proper speed number, but I would guess a 6 or 7. The glide would have been about a 5 or 6. The high speed stability about 0, and the low speed fade about 3 or 4.

I would compare it to a more stable Archangel, I guess.

So Dave. I was just noticing that according to the innova website the Boss and the Groove have the same exact flight statistics. I hadnt realized that and was under the impression that the Groove would be less overstable than the Boss. Could you compare the two and explain the difference if any. Sorry if already asked.

Now that I look at it. Is a Boss really supposed to be more understable at high speed than a destroyer? I know you explained that different speed discs are on a different scale but 12 to 13 isnt that different. In my experience my Bosses don't have as much high speed turn as my destroyers.



The Boss numbers are wrong. They should be either 0 or -1 for high speed turn, and 3 for low speed fade.

Hi, I have a few pro destroyers that weigh 177-179g, and several Bosses at 177g on a postal scale is there a weight limit that shouldn't be sold? And if a buyer gets one of these what should we do. Thanks

Hi, I have a few pro destroyers that weigh 177-179g, and several Bosses at 177g on a postal scale is there a weight limit that shouldn't be sold? And if a buyer gets one of these what should we do. Thanks



I am not a dealer but when i buy drivers i always get 174 grams or less.. i figure if it says 174 its close to or under max and don't have to worry about getting a 179 gram tank :0 A dealer getting a bunch of overweight ones i could see a problem though. Mids and putters i don't much care if they have a few extra grams but drivers are touchy little devils!!

Hi, I have a few pro destroyers that weigh 177-179g, and several Bosses at 177g on a postal scale is there a weight limit that shouldn't be sold? And if a buyer gets one of these what should we do. Thanks



If it is an accurate scale, and you know for sure they are over weight and unsold/unused you can return them for exchange. The weight limit with tolerance for a Destroyer is 176.85. Anything above that would not be legal for PDGA play. The weight limit with tolerance for the Boss would be 177.76. Anything over that would not be legal for PDGA play. Premium plastic is hygroscopic, which means they can absorb moisture and gain weight. This can be a gram or two. The safest way to ensure compliance is to buy discs marked 173 or 174. Storing discs in a low humidity environment may help too.

If you choose to sell these discs, which I don't advise, you should warn the buyers that these discs aren't legal for PDGA play. I realize that the vast majority of disc golf is not PDGA, but we would prefer to exchange the discs rather than have them out there potentially illegal.

The Boss numbers are wrong. They should be either 0 or -1 for high speed turn, and 3 for low speed fade.



That's about what I would have thought.

Interesting comment on the allowable weight tolerances. Why the difference between the allowable weights from Boss to Destroyer? Are they different diameters? Or do other factors affect max allowable weights for a given disc?

The Boss numbers are wrong. They should be either 0 or -1 for high speed turn, and 3 for low speed fade.



That's about what I would have thought.

Interesting comment on the allowable weight tolerances. Why the difference between the allowable weights from Boss to Destroyer? Are they different diameters? Or do other factors affect max allowable weights for a given disc?



This is from the PDGA measurement. Destroyer is measured at a 175.1 and the Boss is measured at a 176.0. The measured diameters are according to the PDGA tech committee. A CE Aviar, for instance, is measured at 176.8. We list all these at 175.

I bet there are quite a few players using discs that are heavier than they are supposed to be and don't even know it. Should this be up to the player or the quality control of a product? Most players I know never weigh there discs after purchase.

I always weigh mine. You will be suprised what you find. I found and then lost a star max that weight in excess of 180. In my opinion you need to know exactly what you are throwing to have a consistent attack.

I always weigh mine. You will be suprised what you find. I found and then lost a star max that weight in excess of 180. In my opinion you need to know exactly what you are throwing to have a consistent attack.



do your discs lose a few grams as they get beat? and if they pick up mud does that add a few grams? (just curious)

I suppose TD's are free to keep scales (hopefully very accurately calibrated ones) at player's check-ins and weigh everybody's discs but i have never seen anyone weigh a disc during a competition nor suggest so-and-so won because they were using illegal weight discs...

from what i hear all manufacturers have max weight marked discs that are a few grams overweight, but with tolerance allowances it seems to be nothing to be too worried about...

Dave, did i hear you say that some of the molds actually are more stable when run at lighter (than max) weights... ?

Dave,
I just wanted to say that it's awesome to see KC Pro Aviars and Rocs being hotstamped for tournaments now! Thanks for that, and answering all of our questions!

Chris

do your discs lose a few grams as they get beat? and if they pick up mud does that add a few grams? (just curious)

I suppose TD's are free to keep scales (hopefully very accurately calibrated ones) at player's check-ins and weigh everybody's discs but i have never seen anyone weigh a disc during a competition nor suggest so-and-so won because they were using illegal weight discs...

from what i hear all manufacturers have max weight marked discs that are a few grams overweight, but with tolerance allowances it seems to be nothing to be too worried about...

Dave, did i hear you say that some of the molds actually are more stable when run at lighter (than max) weights... ?



DX might lose a couple of grams over a long period of time, but the premium plastics won't . More likely, they will gain weight.

The Star Bosses we ran recently for a test were more stable at 166 than they were in the 70,s. I don't know if this will hold for other molds or not.

when will we see some of these lighter star destroyers and bosses, and are they turning out flat or domey? also-when will the lighter regular production grooves hit retailers? lastly, are you still considering dx bosses?
thx again

Hello again Dave,

I recently sent an email hoping to do a run of cfr discs. Hypothetically, if the request were approved, is there a more updated list of discs available for cfr runs than what is provided on the innova web page? The discs on that list are great. It's just that I've noticed other discs being used (wraith, destroyers, xcals, even the groove). Just curious.

How can you tell a CFR Teerex from a Teerex?



The CFR TeeRex is Champion exclusively.



I am sorry, I am more confused than ever...

I have several recent Star CFR Teerex's. You said these were "improved" Teerex's with the slightly tweaked top (which I really like). Is this correct?

Are the old Star CFR Teerex the "real" first Teerex-X (with the concave bottom) and the later ones the "improved" top with the same bottom?

Everyone selling them are calling them Teerex-X's no matter which one they are... some are old and some are new...all are referred to as a Teerex-X.

when will we see some of these lighter star destroyers and bosses, and are they turning out flat or domey? also-when will the lighter regular production grooves hit retailers? lastly, are you still considering dx bosses?
thx again



So far, the lighter Star Destroyers and Bosses are not flat and not particularly domey like Pro, but they are on the domier side. The Champion Grooves went out today to retailers across the country. Weights were down to 166gms. I am considering DX or JK/KC type Pro, which ever works and produces 150 gm Bosses that fly well and hold up reasonably well.

Hello again Dave,

I recently sent an email hoping to do a run of cfr discs. Hypothetically, if the request were approved, is there a more updated list of discs available for cfr runs than what is provided on the innova web page? The discs on that list are great. It's just that I've noticed other discs being used (wraith, destroyers, xcals, even the groove). Just curious.



The on line list has not been updated as yet. For the complete and up to date list you either need to call Zeb on the East coast or Sam on the West coast. We are in the process of getting the web list updated, but things are always missed.

How can you tell a CFR Teerex from a Teerex?



The CFR TeeRex is Champion exclusively.



I am sorry, I am more confused than ever...

I have several recent Star CFR Teerex's. You said these were "improved" Teerex's with the slightly tweaked top (which I really like). Is this correct?

Are the old Star CFR Teerex the "real" first Teerex-X (with the concave bottom) and the later ones the "improved" top with the same bottom?

Everyone selling them are calling them Teerex-X's no matter which one they are... some are old and some are new...all are referred to as a Teerex-X.



It is a complicated story starting with the original TeeRex. We had two tops originally and we didn't know one was bad. It was supposed to be a duplicate of the original. So there were some good and some not so good TeeRexes. I had another top made to fix the problem. It didn't, for some unknown reason. We used an X type bevel which helped, but wasn't entirely satisfactory either. These were the only real TeeRex X. We made a fourth top which fixed the problem. Some of these were referred to as Xes, but they weren't. They were just Xtra stable. We no longer use the X bevel, but we do use the enhanced top. In the future, we will use the enhanced stability method to make sure the TeeRexes don't turn over. The TeeRex has to have the most complicated short history of any disc we have ever produced. We are getting it right now.

Dave,
What is the difference between the old and new mold beasts? How can I tell them apart?
Thanks,
Chris

Can I get some replacement clips that hold the chains on a DiscCatcher Sport? Looking at the catalog it looks like they're not even used anymore, but the ones I have are pretty beat up & rusty, and have already been 'repaired' a couple of times.

Dave,
What is the difference between the old and new mold beasts? How can I tell them apart?
Thanks,
Chris



The old mold Beasts had a slightly more concave bevel.

Can I get some replacement clips that hold the chains on a DiscCatcher Sport? Looking at the catalog it looks like they're not even used anymore, but the ones I have are pretty beat up & rusty, and have already been 'repaired' a couple of times.



Sorry. I don't know the answer to that one. I will have to look into it.

Dave,

Are there star destroyers being produced marked as S/ Ds that are supposed to be more stable?

Thank you Dave. I would love to see a stiff, kc-type plastic 150 boss. On another note, what is the future of the gator in star and champ plastic? Will you be able to get the x-type (with the bead) into regular production again? star or champ would be awesome. as always, thanks.
steven

We made a fourth top which fixed the problem. Some of these were referred to as Xes, but they weren't. They were just Xtra stable. We no longer use the X bevel, but we do use the enhanced top. In the future, we will use the enhanced stability method to make sure the TeeRexes don't turn over.



So, all of the CFR Star Teerex's are "improved", and none of the CFR Teerex's are the old TRX-X?

What would be the advantage to using the "less than improved" mold top at all? Why "stabilize" the old mold instead of just switching to the "improved" mold? Do you think it will have more glide?

The new mold top is pretty darn good "as is" in my opinion.

Thanks, Dave.

I've got another question. Will the Star Boss be production or CFR when released? I've heard rumors of both. Thanks again.
Chris

Dave,

I heard Innova was doing away with the Full Color process. Is this true and why? I will miss ching rocs...

Also, I love the nightshift destroyer. It has helped my sidearm consistency tremendously. I wish I had a few more of them.

Hi Dave,

I have a question about Whippet-Xs. Did you ever run the KC in CE plastic? I picked up a "CE" Whippet-X on Ebay that is white CE plastic. I think this was brought up before a few years back when it first appeared on Ebay, but cant remember the answer.
The disc is hotstamped with "Curley Discs" "Oak Grove"? and has what I think are 2 cartoonish cats throwing at an Innova basket. The gold band has an "#1 Innova Champ Discs" and there are a few trees. Its not very elaborate.
It is one of two things I can figure: Either a run of KC whippets done in the hybrid plastic or its actually CE. It has a large amount of flashing, which I guess may also date it (?), and it appears to be similar to CFR Glo plastic, only no glo. But it carries that type of look. There are visable stretch marks in the plastic when held up to light and a red swirl runs through on part. It is opaque plastic, similar to early run CE or , again, the Hybrid mixes.

Thanks, as always.

Dave - on the regular production TeeRex - we have a few in the shop that are definitely different from the other. Some have what looks like an "L" bottom and others have a bottom that doesn't really seem like the usual "X" but is just beefier in the rim and more concave than the "L" bottom ones. Are either of these the newer ones? It's been about 3 weeks since we received them from the East Coast. Thanks for answering all our questions.

Dave,

Are there star destroyers being produced marked as S/ Ds that are supposed to be more stable?



Only night shift so far. The marking is irrelevant. They are marked * or S for Star.

Thank you Dave. I would love to see a stiff, kc-type plastic 150 boss. On another note, what is the future of the gator in star and champ plastic? Will you be able to get the x-type (with the bead) into regular production again? star or champ would be awesome. as always, thanks.
steven



We will definitely produce a Star or Champion Gator with the bead.

So, all of the CFR Star Teerex's are "improved", and none of the CFR Teerex's are the old TRX-X?

What would be the advantage to using the "less than improved" mold top at all? Why "stabilize" the old mold instead of just switching to the "improved" mold? Do you think it will have more glide?

The new mold top is pretty darn good "as is" in my opinion.



We only use the new top now. There was no advantage to using the old types.

I don't know the status of the CFR discs. Sorry.

Thanks, Dave.

I've got another question. Will the Star Boss be production or CFR when released? I've heard rumors of both. Thanks again.
Chris



I think it will be regular production.

Dave,

I heard Innova was doing away with the Full Color process. Is this true and why? I will miss ching rocs...

Also, I love the nightshift destroyer. It has helped my sidearm consistency tremendously. I wish I had a few more of them.



Innova East did the full color and they are unable to continue as the supplies to do them are no longer available.

Hi Dave,

I have a question about Whippet-Xs. Did you ever run the KC in CE plastic? I picked up a "CE" Whippet-X on Ebay that is white CE plastic. I think this was brought up before a few years back when it first appeared on Ebay, but cant remember the answer.
The disc is hotstamped with "Curley Discs" "Oak Grove"? and has what I think are 2 cartoonish cats throwing at an Innova basket. The gold band has an "#1 Innova Champ Discs" and there are a few trees. Its not very elaborate.
It is one of two things I can figure: Either a run of KC whippets done in the hybrid plastic or its actually CE. It has a large amount of flashing, which I guess may also date it (?), and it appears to be similar to CFR Glo plastic, only no glo. But it carries that type of look. There are visable stretch marks in the plastic when held up to light and a red swirl runs through on part. It is opaque plastic, similar to early run CE or , again, the Hybrid mixes.

Thanks, as always.



Sorry, I can't remember for sure. I sounds like a hybrid plastic. I'm not sure which Whippet mold was used. There were three possibilities. Original with the concave bevel, regular, and Whippet X with the thicker nose.

Dave - on the regular production TeeRex - we have a few in the shop that are definitely different from the other. Some have what looks like an "L" bottom and others have a bottom that doesn't really seem like the usual "X" but is just beefier in the rim and more concave than the "L" bottom ones. Are either of these the newer ones? It's been about 3 weeks since we received them from the East Coast. Thanks for answering all our questions.



The ones that are beefier in the rim and more concave on the bottom could be an older TeeRex version. All of the new ones have the L type bevel.

Dave,

I just received my copy of the 2009 Innova Catalog...

BIG KUDOS TO INNOVA for the new "ECHO" plastic. This according to the catalog is 50-100% recycled material used to create the disc. WOW, awesome!!

Do you have any more details on this program you can share with us? Like, where do you get the recycled material from? Do you have any plans to collect old discs from players/retailers for even more recycling? Can't stress enough how awesome it is to see a major disc manufacturer putting in an effort to be more green. Plastics used in disc golf are primarily made of petroleum, right? The more we can recycle the better IMO.

Hi Dave,

Once again, thanks in advance for taking the time to answer all the many questions. I would like to hear your take on the difference (if any) in the flight character of the Star Groove vs. Champion Groove. I have talked to a few people and heard conflicting reports about each.

Thanks!!

Hey Dave,
Just an idea if you're going to continue to make Eco Star and DX plastic. Maybe make a little stamp to put on the front that says "Eco" or even a ink stamp on the bottom like the old Roc stamp. It would be much easier for retailers and buyers to discern this from the normal Star plastic. I think it should be visible more than just the 'E' sharpie on the bottom. Just my 2 cents.

Dave,

I just received my copy of the 2009 Innova Catalog...

BIG KUDOS TO INNOVA for the new "ECHO" plastic. This according to the catalog is 50-100% recycled material used to create the disc. WOW, awesome!!

Do you have any more details on this program you can share with us? Like, where do you get the recycled material from? Do you have any plans to collect old discs from players/retailers for even more recycling? Can't stress enough how awesome it is to see a major disc manufacturer putting in an effort to be more green. Plastics used in disc golf are primarily made of petroleum, right? The more we can recycle the better IMO.



Most all of the recycled Echo material is pre-consumer bad parts. We haven't worked out the logistics for recycling old discs other than locally. I recycle all of my old plastic as long as it's not degraded or excessively dirty. Sorting and transportation of old parts and then molding them into already finicky molds makes post consumer plastic very difficult.

Hi Dave,

Once again, thanks in advance for taking the time to answer all the many questions. I would like to hear your take on the difference (if any) in the flight character of the Star Groove vs. Champion Groove. I have talked to a few people and heard conflicting reports about each.

Thanks!!



There are bound to be conflicting reports as the flight characteristics tend to vary some from disc to disc and weight to weight. Generally, the Champion Grooves are lower profile and slightly more stable. Generally, the Echo Star Grooves seemed to have more glide and possibly more turn.

will the echo and/or star grooves be a general release? if so, when? will they get down to 165/166?

Hey Dave,
Just an idea if you're going to continue to make Eco Star and DX plastic. Maybe make a little stamp to put on the front that says "Eco" or even a ink stamp on the bottom like the old Roc stamp. It would be much easier for retailers and buyers to discern this from the normal Star plastic. I think it should be visible more than just the 'E' sharpie on the bottom. Just my 2 cents.



That's a good idea. We are currently developing an Echo logo that we can make stickers out of for that purpose.

will the echo and/or star grooves be regular production? if so, when? will they get down to 165/166? thx

Hi Dave,

Once again, thanks in advance for taking the time to answer all the many questions. I would like to hear your take on the difference (if any) in the flight character of the Star Groove vs. Champion Groove. I have talked to a few people and heard conflicting reports about each.

Thanks!!



There are bound to be conflicting reports as the flight characteristics tend to vary some from disc to disc and weight to weight. Generally, the Champion Grooves are lower profile and slightly more stable. Generally, the Echo Star Grooves seemed to have more glide and possibly more turn.



not trying to be mean-spirited here but what i'm hearing is, you mold up discs, they come out as x-outs, you ship them to the distributor(or other injection molding company) to have them regrind said discs, ship them back, then remold them with new plastic? for some reason using all that fuel and energy to resell x-out discs doesn't seem all that "green" to me. i guess it's better than throwing them away though....

They might have their own grinding machine, many plastic companies do, I know ours does.

will the echo and/or star grooves be regular production? if so, when? will they get down to 165/166? thx



Star will at some point I think. Echo probably will not. Stars will definitely get down to 165 or lower. Echos will be higher weight. Stars will be test run by next month, but I don't know when we can run production at this point.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vie...bayphotohosting (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&it em=110341859719#ebayphotohosting)

Not sure if this will help or not. It does have a "WX" on the bottom. It seems to me to be similar to the Champion/Star Whippet-Xs, but theres alot of flashing so its hard to tell totally. Thanks again Dave, either way.

Most all of the recycled Echo material is pre-consumer bad parts. We haven't worked out the logistics for recycling old discs other than locally. I recycle all of my old plastic as long as it's not degraded or excessively dirty. Sorting and transportation of old parts and then molding them into already finicky molds makes post consumer plastic very difficult.



Ahh I see the difficulty there, and thanks for the honest response. This looks to be tough to do with discs but post-consumer is probably where the most gains can be made.

Patagonia does this effectively (http://www.patagonia.com/web/us/patagonia.go?assetid=1956). The main different though is that Patagonia collects used clothing that would otherwise be thrown away. How many people actually throw away discs? Not too many.. Also clothing is probably easier to recycle than "finicky" discs.

Maybe the best gains to be made are working with retailers who want to get rid of excess stock or discontinued molds. A disc retailer in Florida ordered way too much of a particular mold that has gone out of style.. He sends back his two boxes of Star SLs (sorry to rip on the SL, just an example) to Innova for some kind of credit. This retailer keeps his shelves current and Innova recycles and turns that SL into a Boss.

its not a new idea or process for plastic companies, they grind it back down and use it again. plastic is such a cheap material that many companies just throw it out instead of the pain of regrind and the hassle. it is better than throwing them away. probably saves a touch of money along the way too. discraft sites this as the process for all their factory seconds, they sell misprints, but thats only in the stamp. they never sell x-outs just regrind it and reuse it. its nice to see big companies recycle (good move dave), but its a great thing for innova because their reused product has become a new commodity and people will even pay more for the reused plastic. serendipity at its finest :) . marketing, ... seems funny, but it works.

my question for dave about the plastic process is, how long typically is the timeline from the idea of a disc to prototyping to actual production?

Dave, i have a tee-rex and a teerex probably just molded with out the dash. the one with the dash seems more overstable than the regular one and my champ teerex-x. so the difference would be the tops?
My eco star groove flies very smooth, at 170g.
i was reading earlier posts, will the gator be back in retail production in champ again or stay as a CFR? thanks!

Hi Dave,

Once again, thanks in advance for taking the time to answer all the many questions. I would like to hear your take on the difference (if any) in the flight character of the Star Groove vs. Champion Groove. I have talked to a few people and heard conflicting reports about each.

Thanks!!



There are bound to be conflicting reports as the flight characteristics tend to vary some from disc to disc and weight to weight. Generally, the Champion Grooves are lower profile and slightly more stable. Generally, the Echo Star Grooves seemed to have more glide and possibly more turn.




That is exactly the general information I was hoping to get.

Thanks.

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Not sure if this will help or not. It does have a "WX" on the bottom. It seems to me to be similar to the Champion/Star Whippet-Xs, but theres alot of flashing so its hard to tell totally. Thanks again Dave, either way.



I can't really see anything from the picture. I would have to see the nose and bevel to have a shot at it. The plastic could be Pro SE, or CE.

my question for dave about the plastic process is, how long typically is the timeline from the idea of a disc to prototyping to actual production?



This depends on several things. I am currently working on a mold that took years to actually design and build. It was finally done and now we are looking for the perfect blend of plastics to run it.

Most molds take about four months from conception to sales. Sometimes less and sometimes more. Once the mold is designed, it takes almost two months to get the mold made and loaded into the injection molding machine for initial testing. If that goes well, and we have the particular materials necessary to make the parts, we can start making them. Of course it has to be put into the schedule and that can take weeks. It takes about two weeks of molding to have sufficient parts to ship to the east coast. A week or so after that and we can release them. A week or so after that and they hit the retailers.

Dave, i have a tee-rex and a teerex probably just molded with out the dash. the one with the dash seems more overstable than the regular one and my champ teerex-x. so the difference would be the tops?
My eco star groove flies very smooth, at 170g.
i was reading earlier posts, will the gator be back in retail production in champ again or stay as a CFR? thanks!



The dashed TeeRex was probably an original with the good top. The difference can also be when it was molded and what material was used.

We have not made any determination about the Champion Gator's status as yet.

I have a test run boss that feels great in the hand but it was to pricey to throw, is there a release date for the star boss yet? Thanks

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vie...bayphotohosting (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&it em=110341859719#ebayphotohosting)

Not sure if this will help or not. It does have a "WX" on the bottom. It seems to me to be similar to the Champion/Star Whippet-Xs, but theres alot of flashing so its hard to tell totally. Thanks again Dave, either way.



I can't really see anything from the picture. I would have to see the nose and bevel to have a shot at it. The plastic could be Pro SE, or CE.



All the people Ive shown it to think its CE, so far. Its nose is more like a Champion Whippet-X than a KC, but all I have are 10 and 11xs left anymore.

Thanks anyways Dave, no worries. I paid 20$ for it, even if its just a standard SE or KC its worth more than that.

I thought KC stuff didnt get stamped?

I have a test run boss that feels great in the hand but it was to pricey to throw, is there a release date for the star boss yet? Thanks



We are running them now. No release date yet, but it should be some time in March.

I heard there is a video out somewhere (maybe youtube?) showing the INNOVA manufacturing plant, and showing how disc are made.

Does anyone have a link to such a video? Would love to see how they make disc's

No such video exists.

hey dave,
in my order of first run champion grooves i received 4 that are opaque blue rather than the clear. are they any different from the rest?

hey dave,
in my order of first run champion grooves i received 4 that are opaque blue rather than the clear. are they any different from the rest?



They are all Champion, but there are differences within the run. Some are softer than others. Some are a little more stable than others.

which colors are more stable?

Can anyone tell me which one of these 2 leopards are more valuable

http://s698.photobucket.com/albums/vv346/flexmccalister/

What are the weights? If the top one in near max, the top one is worth more

which colors are more stable?



I don't think the colors matter at this point. At first the merlot were the most stable and the orange the least, but once the run got settled, it didn't matter.

top one is 175, bottom is a 172. i wanna throw the bottom one cause it feels so good in the hand, it kinda has that greasy feeling that wont wipe off. I know someone was talking about that a few pages ago.

anyone have an idea what each of them might be worth?

top one +/-30
Bottom +/- 20

kinda what i thought, im going to add the SE to my bag then, its been on the wall for a year. Are they very old discs?

My father lives in Tulsa, looks they got some nice courses and tournies there!

SE came out in the late 90's, possibly 2000.

Yeah, Tulsa has some killer stuff going on right now. I'm glad I'm less than 2 hours away.

hey Dave-- how light did the champ grroves go? i have not been able to find anything under 168.
thanks

Supposedly as low as 165g according to the catalog and the Innova website.

I know where you can get a bunch of 166g if my buddy still has them.

www.discgolfcenter.com (http://www.discgolfcenter.com) has X-outs down to 164 gm. whoops well they did :confused:

hey Dave-- how light did the champ grroves go? i have not been able to find anything under 168.
thanks



Originally they went down to around 166g with any consistency. Now, we are producing them a little lower. Down to 163g, I believe. Star Grooves will probably go three or four grams lower than that. Echo, will probably be high sixties and up.

i know Fred Salaz -- www.theNatiDiscGolf.com (http://www.theNatiDiscGolf.com) -- had several red 166g Champ Grooves Saturday and may have even had lighter ones in stock ...

our club got a bunch at 165-167

Hey Dave,

Is there any differences in durability between champion and champion glow plastic? A couple people are telling me the champ glow beat in just like regular glow...

Just looking for clarification.

Thanks as always!
Trey

Hey Dave,

Is there any differences in durability between champion and champion glow plastic? A couple people are telling me the champ glow beat in just like regular glow...

Just looking for clarification.

Thanks as always!
Trey



No difference as far as I know.

Dave,

Is there a way to see the 3rd collector's stamp for 2009 worlds. or the design for all of them. how many will there be? just the star monarch will have the stamps? when might the 3rd one be released?
thanks so much for answering all of these questions for all of us.

Steven

i had a champ glo starfire x and it didn't beat any more than regular champ.

Dave,

Is there a way to see the 3rd collector's stamp for 2009 worlds. or the design for all of them. how many will there be? just the star monarch will have the stamps? when might the 3rd one be released?
thanks so much for answering all of these questions for all of us.

Steven



The 3rd Star Monarch stamp has not been submitted to Innova yet, but will be soon.

Dave,

Is there a way to see the 3rd collector's stamp for 2009 worlds. or the design for all of them. how many will there be? just the star monarch will have the stamps? when might the 3rd one be released?
thanks so much for answering all of these questions for all of us.

Steven



So far we have only had two designs that we put on Star Monarchs. Rick Rothstein has all the art and, I assume, the third design. I believe, the third will be the last. Right now, I don't know if it is going on the Star Monarch, or another disc.

Dave, Any feedback on the test run Star Orcs? i just got one in 160g, and haven't thrown it yet. thanks

Dave, Any feedback on the test run Star Orcs? i just got one in 160g, and haven't thrown it yet. thanks



If you mean the Night Shift type, not much at all. Most was from the other discs. I would appreciate hearing your feedback.

Thanks

I love my nightshift orcs. I'm throwing 175g and they are definitely more stable than my champion or my SB. They remind me somewhat of the SB from Tulsa but are more stiff. The Orc is still my main driver and it's a nice addition to the bag. I should probably pick up some more while they are still around!

Dave,

In terms of your fairway drivers, imo they are all too stable. Even Leopards in the Star and Champ are stable to overstable when new and stay that way a long time. Same with TLs...most fly like TBs when new and there is really not short cut in the break-in process. What are the chances that you would make a disc in the Teebird speed range with a Monarch-like groove? It would be nice to have an understable fairway driver that you could buy that way. Just a wish...Thanks as always.

Dave,

In terms of your fairway drivers, imo they are all too stable. Even Leopards in the Star and Champ are stable to overstable when new and stay that way a long time. Same with TLs...most fly like TBs when new and there is really not short cut in the break-in process.



I am not going to say "too stable", because I believe the Star Leopard has nearly the perfect amount of understability to still be consistent, but I will say that the old molds that were designed for DX, sometimes appear have little to do with their premium plastic counterparts.

I said something similar about the Teebird. It would be interesting to throw a Star Teebird that was shaped like a DX Teebird. Same for the Eagle, Leopard, etc

A DX Eagle-X shaped disc in Star... now that would be Boss.

does the boss really have less low speed fade than the destroyer? that is what the flight ratings allege. would you agree with this?
thx

Dave,

In terms of your fairway drivers, imo they are all too stable. Even Leopards in the Star and Champ are stable to overstable when new and stay that way a long time. Same with TLs...most fly like TBs when new and there is really not short cut in the break-in process. What are the chances that you would make a disc in the Teebird speed range with a Monarch-like groove? It would be nice to have an understable fairway driver that you could buy that way. Just a wish...Thanks as always.



I am working on it. Not the Monarch type, but a different technique. Probably going to take several months, but will be worth it if I get it right. The end game is a Leopard distance disc that flies virtually straight. Most of our older discs had some slight overstability built into them for the inevitable scuffs on the DX plastic that we used. We wanted them to have a gradual wear pattern. The urethane plastic changed this wear pattern. Our newer drivers are built with urethane as the primary plastic. Some of them don't do to well with DX.

does the boss really have less low speed fade than the destroyer? that is what the flight ratings allege. would you agree with this?
thx



They are fairly similar now, but the first Bosses we ran were a little less low speed over stable. The hopefully, we can adjust the numbers as needed over time.

"I am working on it. Not the Monarch type, but a different technique. Probably going to take several months, but will be worth it if I get it right. The end game is a Leopard distance disc that flies virtually straight. Most of our older discs had some slight overstability built into them for the inevitable scuffs on the DX plastic that we used. We wanted them to have a gradual wear pattern. The urethane plastic changed this wear pattern. Our newer drivers are built with urethane as the primary plastic. Some of them don't do to well with DX. "

That would be sweet Dave. I was a big fan of the TL but recently had to replace my old (very straight) star TL. The new ones are overstable pigs by comparison and seem to be more overstable than my regular Teebirds.

Leopard distance....virtually straight...call it "the holy grail" or just "the grail"

Dave I just got 2 champ boss's from mitch mac n town at the tourny and was wondering would these be like the 1st or the Feldberg run. I am hoping its the Feldberg cause they are stable and fast.

Dave I just got 2 champ boss's from mitch mac n town at the tourny and was wondering would these be like the 1st or the Feldberg run. I am hoping its the Feldberg cause they are stable and fast.



The Champion Bosses have switched material from the beginning to a more stable type. The ones we are making now are pretty reliably stable. We aren't making the flippy type in Champion any more. Having said all this, you could have a stable one from the first run or most any one from the second run.

So how low do the star Bosses go? Still waiting for these to hit the streets.

If anyone can answer this that would be great. I was wondering if there is any word on when Star Bosses and Grooves would become widely available. I couldn't find anything on here. I like the discs and think they will work for me but I can't use champion for drivers.

grooves are or should be "widely available" as in they have been shipped and the star bosses are sometime in march. CAN'T use champion for driving? got to know your reasoning behind that.

Hey Dave, I'd appreciate it if you could shed some light on something I've wondered about for a long time... I tried searching everywhere in this thread for an answer but it doesn't look like this question has been asked, but I apologize if you've answered it before.

Why is it that discs made in Star plastic (or Champion for that matter) tend to be more high speed stable than the same mold in DX or Pro?


Star discs have the same flight rating characteristics of Champion discs, although some Star discs may be slightly more high-speed stable.



I have a Star Sidewinder that barely turns over but it just glides forever in essentially a straight line. It's probably my favorite driver. But compared to say, a DX Archangel, it's not nearly as easy to turn over. I realize the Archangel is more understable, but the difference is like night a day.

I can understand that over time Star plastic is going to wear down a lot less, but it seems like right out of the box, the Star plastic is more high speed stable. It doesn't make any sense to me because I assume a disc's flight is controlled by its shape, not the plastic it's made out of.

Does Star plastic have less friction with the air or something along those lines?

So how low do the star Bosses go? Still waiting for these to hit the streets.



The Star Bosses go down to around 166 or 167gms. They will be released around the first of March.

If anyone can answer this that would be great. I was wondering if there is any word on when Star Bosses and Grooves would become widely available. I couldn't find anything on here. I like the discs and think they will work for me but I can't use champion for drivers.



The Star Bosses are scheduled for March 1. The Star Grooves aren't scheduled yet.

Hey Dave, I'd appreciate it if you could shed some light on something I've wondered about for a long time... I tried searching everywhere in this thread for an answer but it doesn't look like this question has been asked, but I apologize if you've answered it before.

Why is it that discs made in Star plastic (or Champion for that matter) tend to be more high speed stable than the same mold in DX or Pro?


Star discs have the same flight rating characteristics of Champion discs, although some Star discs may be slightly more high-speed stable.



I have a Star Sidewinder that barely turns over but it just glides forever in essentially a straight line. It's probably my favorite driver. But compared to say, a DX Archangel, it's not nearly as easy to turn over. I realize the Archangel is more understable, but the difference is like night a day.

I can understand that over time Star plastic is going to wear down a lot less, but it seems like right out of the box, the Star plastic is more high speed stable. It doesn't make any sense to me because I assume a disc's flight is controlled by its shape, not the plastic it's made out of.

Does Star plastic have less friction with the air or something along those lines?



Its not friction. Its shrink from different plastics and different molding parameters. DX plastics shrink more than the higher grades. Also within the grades as opposed to across grades, there are varying types of shrink across flow or along the flow of the plastic into the mold. Its complicated.

Is a Star Cheetah out of the question? I used to throw KC Champion Cheetahs when i started playing and remember them fondly. As cheetahs are such fast animals maybe the name is obselete though... was it considered very fast when it was first released?

is there a timeline anywhere of in which years various Innova discs were first released?

Is a Star Cheetah out of the question? I used to throw KC Champion Cheetahs when i started playing and remember them fondly. As cheetahs are such fast animals maybe the name is obselete though... was it considered very fast when it was first released?

is there a timeline anywhere of in which years various Innova discs were first released?



If you look at the PDGA list of approved discs, the date of approval is listed there. When I started playing in 97 or so, Cheetah/Gazelle/Whippet were the fast drivers. Banshee (along with Discraft's XL and X2) were approved in 98.

just go to PDGA approved discs (http://www.pdga.com/files/documents/PDGA_approved_discs_012009.pdf) and this will give you an idea of when the discs was approved. Release date should be soon after that.

And at the time the Cheetah was a fast disc. Along with the whippet, viper, gazelle, cyclone. It wouldn't be until almost 5 years later before the advent of the Thunderbird, Valkyrie, Eagle (modern mold) Firebird, XS, XL etc..

Is a Star Cheetah out of the question? I used to throw KC Champion Cheetahs when i started playing and remember them fondly. As cheetahs are such fast animals maybe the name is obselete though... was it considered very fast when it was first released?

is there a timeline anywhere of in which years various Innova discs were first released?



Star Cheetah is not likely at this point. Closest disc to it is the S LS for Millennium.

Few questions-

Any chance some x-out echo grooves might pop up on discgolfvalues?

Also, is it the Discmania CD or PD that is kind of a cross between a Firebird and a Teebird?

When might we see discs with the new stabilization process? (Teebird, Leopard mainly...)

Thanks, I appreciate you taking the time to answer these questions!

Dave,
I know you guys ran Sharks in the Omega type plastic for one limited run. Have you ever thought of running any other midrange discs in this plastic like Rocs or Classic Rocs? For one thing the grip is phenomenal and they can take alot of beating with out much wear (besides the flight plate stretching resulting in loss of glide). I know that alot of peoples response to the Shark being run in this plastic was so so but when I asked them about a Roc or another similar midrange being run in this plastic they got very excited at the concept. What are the pros and cons on your end of running a disc in this plastic besides a putter?

Few questions-

Any chance some x-out echo grooves might pop up on discgolfvalues?

Yes.

Also, is it the Discmania CD or PD that is kind of a cross between a Firebird and a Teebird?

PD

When might we see discs with the new stabilization process? (Teebird, Leopard mainly...)

No date at this point. However, next time they are in we will give it a shot. TeeBird is scheduled for process. Don't know about the Leopard.

Dave,
I know you guys ran Sharks in the Omega type plastic for one limited run. Have you ever thought of running any other midrange discs in this plastic like Rocs or Classic Rocs? For one thing the grip is phenomenal and they can take alot of beating with out much wear (besides the flight plate stretching resulting in loss of glide). I know that alot of peoples response to the Shark being run in this plastic was so so but when I asked them about a Roc or another similar midrange being run in this plastic they got very excited at the concept. What are the pros and cons on your end of running a disc in this plastic besides a putter?



All discs run in this plastic are difficult and slow to run. Rejects due to warping are high. We are currently testing a new plastic of this type that doesn't warp much. If we continue to have success with it, we may come out with
a mid in it. The problem with most mids in a very soft plastic is they are somewhat difficult to throw fast or in a wind and that limits what can be done with them.

Champion is great material for my discs that I don't want to break down, (i.e. Firebirds, Gators) but they lack in grip compared to Star and most discs are best when they are a little broken in. I just can't rip the champion discs as well as star.

Dave

My "go to, most trusted disc" has been a Purple, 170g 1st run CFR Star Fire. I had two, lost one. :(

(not the disc fault, can't work all night, drink the morning away, then toss from a raised tee box, into a head wind and not pay attention to the landing... it's the Indian not the arrow)

My question is, now that I'm down to one, What current disc would you recommend as a replacement?

This Indian will continue to play golf after working all night, so losing the other disc remains a possibility.

Thank you for you consideration.

A domey Champ orc is close, or a seasoned starfire.

Dave,
Some friends of mine and I will be in the Rancho Cucamonga area late next week. I was wondering if there is anyway to get a tour of the Innova West Factory, any info would be great.
Thanks, Zack

Dave

My "go to, most trusted disc" has been a Purple, 170g 1st run CFR Star Fire. I had two, lost one. :(

(not the disc fault, can't work all night, drink the morning away, then toss from a raised tee box, into a head wind and not pay attention to the landing... it's the Indian not the arrow)

My question is, now that I'm down to one, What current disc would you recommend as a replacement?

This Indian will continue to play golf after working all night, so losing the other disc remains a possibility.

Thank you for you consideration.



I would recommend a regular inventory Champion Starfire.

Dave,
Some friends of mine and I will be in the Rancho Cucamonga area late next week. I was wondering if there is anyway to get a tour of the Innova West Factory, any info would be great.
Thanks, Zack



Sorry Zack, we don't have any staff for that, and you could only see the sales office if we did. The production area is off limits for everyone.

They don't want you to see the Ooompa Loompas.

Dave- did the star bosses that got down to 166-7 come out more or less stable that the champ. ones? when will we see the lighter star grooves? how did they come out compared to the champion?
thanks

Dave- did the star bosses that got down to 166-7 come out more or less stable that the champ. ones? when will we see the lighter star grooves? how did they come out compared to the champion?
thanks



The lighter Star Bosses were more stable than some of the original Champion Bosses. The Champion is now more stable than the original too. I think the heavier Star Bosses are a little less stable than either.

We haven't made Star Grooves other than Echo Star. They weren't light.

Howdy Dave! What year did innova stop stamping the aviar p/a with the chains stamp?
http://discology.co.uk/shop/i/discs/thumb/th_7.jpg

Howdy Dave! What year did innova stop stamping the aviar p/a with the chains stamp?
http://discology.co.uk/shop/i/discs/thumb/th_7.jpg



Hi John,

I don't know, but I assume it got done about the same time as we went to the latest hot stamping template for DX. We redid all of the stamps at that point. My guess is about 2001 or 2002.

i have thrown the test run nightshift orc a few times. i have one that is 160g. it is pretty stable for being light. it holds it line fairly well in the wind. the plastic seems a little firmer than other star orcs i have. i did notice the wing seems to have a little wider space between where edge and the bevel meet. i would like to get one around 168-171. i was lucky to get one at 160.

Howdy Dave! What year did innova stop stamping the aviar p/a with the chains stamp?
http://discology.co.uk/shop/i/discs/thumb/th_7.jpg



Hi John,

I don't know, but I assume it got done about the same time as we went to the latest hot stamping template for DX. We redid all of the stamps at that point. My guess is about 2001 or 2002.



Thank you sir. That's pretty much what i remembered; if not hotstamped, the P&A was stamped that way for ~roughly a decade.

I have a disc stamped 1st run star Cro that is marked 'SP' on the bottom. It kind of flies like a cross between a cro and a gator.... were the 1st run cros more stable?

Don't know about them being more stable or not, but they mis-marked some of the 1st run cros as Spiders, or "SP"

Dave--are you guys phasing out all pro plastic (driver-type)?

Dave - any information on this avair would be great:

http://i.ebayimg.com/24/!BM5fmhgBWk~$(KGrHgoOKjIEjlLmWpluBJm2w8eJQ!~~_1.JP G

It is listed as a bottom stamped hands aviar..It does actually have the hands stamp on the face of the disc, but I didn't think any bottom stamped versions of this disc were done with that logo.

Dave--are you guys phasing out all pro plastic (driver-type)?




We were, but we found a new source of the Pro plastic.

Dave - any information on this avair would be great:

http://i.ebayimg.com/24/!BM5fmhgBWk~$(KGrHgoOKjIEjlLmWpluBJm2w8eJQ!~~_1.JP G

It is listed as a bottom stamped hands aviar..It does actually have the hands stamp on the face of the disc, but I didn't think any bottom stamped versions of this disc were done with that logo.



The bottom stamped putters are done by the east coast office. I don't know anything about it. Sorry.

Dave - any information on this avair would be great:

http://i.ebayimg.com/24/!BM5fmhgBWk~$(KGrHgoOKjIEjlLmWpluBJm2w8eJQ!~~_1.JP G

It is listed as a bottom stamped hands aviar..It does actually have the hands stamp on the face of the disc, but I didn't think any bottom stamped versions of this disc were done with that logo.



These were a re-release of the hands on aviar. I think they were done around 03 or 04. They put the bottom stamp so they wouldn't confuse anyone with the original hands on aviars.

they are just regular aviars with a bottom stamp, whats the big deal, they did rocs too and beasts and valks i think, all dx

It's not the bottom stamp that's the big deal. It's the "hands on" stamp on the front. Mint original "hands on" stamped Aviars will fetch $150 to $200 in the collector market. Innova east ran a re-release of the "hands on' stamp a few years back. They also stamped these with the bottom Aviar stamp to distinguish the originals from the re-releases.

Hey Dave,

I have a proto star stamped disc that's not marked on the bottom and I know it's either a Star Destroyer or a Star XCaliber. When I compare it to another one of each, it's very difficult to make the distinction. Can you tell me a way to identify which one of the two it is?

Thanks for the time.

Hi Dave,

don't know if this was covered before, but are the buttery soft JK Aviars still going to be available occasionally or do i need to keep close tabs on all I have / can find since i like those the best? I have seen a lot of variation in the 4x's (initial run stiff, then some very soft ones, etc), but i hear the latest are all stiffer/grippier as opposed to soft...? do you know if the same is true for the Omega Supersofts?

Hey Dave,

I have a proto star stamped disc that's not marked on the bottom and I know it's either a Star Destroyer or a Star XCaliber. When I compare it to another one of each, it's very difficult to make the distinction. Can you tell me a way to identify which one of the two it is?

Thanks for the time.



The only way I can think of is to compare the noses. The Destroyer will be slightly sharper than the XCal.

Hi Dave,

don't know if this was covered before, but are the buttery soft JK Aviars still going to be available occasionally or do i need to keep close tabs on all I have / can find since i like those the best? I have seen a lot of variation in the 4x's (initial run stiff, then some very soft ones, etc), but i hear the latest are all stiffer/grippier as opposed to soft...? do you know if the same is true for the Omega Supersofts?



We had been having difficulties molding the soft pro, soft. The softer it was, the more rejects we had. Recently, we developed a new R-Pro plastic that has solved this problem. We are going to be using it in JKs, Pro Rhynos, Pigs,
Omega SS, and any other R-Pro type discs we make. This basically means these discs will be consistently softer. We are currently making two new additions with this plastic. Our newest disc, the Dart P&A and the R-Pro Aviar P&A are being made with this new plastic.

what is the dart all about?

what is the dart all about?



It's a putter made of new R-Pro (Rubber Pro). Very straight flyer. Like a slightly faster Aviar with less low speed fade. Built like a smaller Aero. Preliminary numbers are 3,4,0,0.

Is the new R-Pro what you made the Super Soft and Very Soft XD's out of?

Is the new R-Pro what you made the Super Soft and Very Soft XD's out of?



Similar, but the R-Pro holds its shape better.

Hi Dave,

don't know if this was covered before, but are the buttery soft JK Aviars still going to be available occasionally or do i need to keep close tabs on all I have / can find since i like those the best? I have seen a lot of variation in the 4x's (initial run stiff, then some very soft ones, etc), but i hear the latest are all stiffer/grippier as opposed to soft...? do you know if the same is true for the Omega Supersofts?



We had been having difficulties molding the soft pro, soft. The softer it was, the more rejects we had. Recently, we developed a new R-Pro plastic that has solved this problem. We are going to be using it in JKs, Pro Rhynos, Pigs,
Omega SS, and any other R-Pro type discs we make. This basically means these discs will be consistently softer. We are currently making two new additions with this plastic. Our newest disc, the Dart P&A and the R-Pro Aviar P&A are being made with this new plastic.



sweet! thanks!!!

hopefully a faster putter

A speed 13 putter for big arms. ;)

Dave, with the new pro plastic, will we see some of the discontinued drivers back in pro plastic? (eagles, teebirds< etc.) thanks!

Dave, with the new pro plastic, will we see some of the discontinued drivers back in pro plastic? (eagles, teebirds< etc.) thanks!



Possibly, but we haven't scheduled anything yet.

Hey Dave, this new DART rubbery plastic wont be like a DGA blowfly or gumbputt will it?

Hey Dave, this new DART rubbery plastic wont be like a DGA blowfly or gumbputt will it?



It's not like the gumbputts we used to make for DGA. But, it is a thermoplastic rubber. I am not familiar with the blowfly, so I can't comment on that. What comparison are you asking about?

Dave--are you guys phasing out all pro plastic (driver-type)?




We were, but we found a new source of the Pro plastic.



awesome!!!! thank you Dave for saving the pro line

Got the dart in the mail today...sweet plastic! Feels really grippy and good in the hand. Haven't gotten to test it outside yet since it is a blizzard outside today, but I'm looking forward to it :)

next time you run cros, do you plan on running champion as a regular run?
when will retailers have the dart?
thanks Dave

Dave,
Is there any difference between the out of production 11x Champion Aviars and the new run of generic stamp Champion Aviars?

Also will the website be updated soon to reflect the new products and new list of discs available for CFR?

next time you run cros, do you plan on running champion as a regular run?
when will retailers have the dart?
thanks Dave



No decision has been made about the Cro yet, but it will be tested in the next month. The Dart should be at retailers the first week of March.

Dave,
Is there any difference between the out of production 11x Champion Aviars and the new run of generic stamp Champion Aviars?

Also will the website be updated soon to reflect the new products and new list of discs available for CFR?



Depending on when the 11x Champion Aviars were run, they could be the old small bead model instead of the new no bead model. Also, all Aviars are now being run with the www. core instead of the San Marino.

The website is scheduled to be updated but I don't know exactly when.