So ... do they still glow well after they have been dyed?

Here's my question. What is with Innova? Why do they always have to change a good thing? It seems like just when I get to know a disc (or run) they go and change it on me. Case in point the teebrid from the 10 time to the 11 time and now the champion all of which have the same name teebrid but all fly different from each other. I would not have a problem with the different disc if I could still get the old ones at the same time. It seems like Dave has to retool the molds or change the fell of his plastic (from stiff to soft) after ever run!!?

P.S. I relay hate soft drivers and mid-range. They just fill like their going to wobble toward the basket.

I don't think that you understand. They didn't change the mold it is just that they ran out of that grippy opaque plastic from the 10x's.

SWEEEEET :D:D:D

Are they legal to throw with the stamp all the way to the edge? Just curious.



Why would they not be legal? There is nothing in either the Technical Standards or the Guidelines for Discs Used in Play governing the size, composition, or placement of hotstamps. The only requirement is that approved discs be uniquely identified by the manufacturer, acceptable methods of identification being indelible ink, mold marks, or hotstamps.

My mistake. I thought I read something somewhere once.... but then I realized I should probably go read the specs before I warm up my typing fingers. :o

THERE'S A HAIR IN MY CFR VIPER!!!! ;) I don't think so really, but... I have a gold CFR Viper from BG and it seems like there was air or something between the swirls of the molten plastic. When one laid up on the other it formed what looks like a hair on top. Since it's just going on my wall, I don't care but if I was throwing it I would. This was posted mainly because I thoght the first line was funny. :D

Dave, what's in your bag(cart) these days?

discspeed, I carry 15 discs usually, 2 175gm JK putters, 1 first run candy valk, 2 175 Champ Vikings, 1 175 Champ Teebird, 3 Champ Orcs at 167, 168, 173 gms., 1 max DX Gator, 1 max DX Roc, 1 Champ FL 173 gm, 1 175 Champ Leopard, 1 Pro Aviar max, last could be anything from a Monster to a Dragon or Pro Tee.

Dave, please tell me the deal with the softer plastic? I love to throw Innova but these new softer disc just don't fill right in my hand and in many of the other golfers that I know. This is just a question I am trying to get an answer for.
P.S. Are there any pro spiders still around??????

Znash, I have a Pro Spider from right before they were cancelled. It's a 175 if you're interested in trading.

I've got a lot of disc, but don't really like to trade online.

i love the softer discs. especially the 'gummy' beasts! they're yummy!

I like the softer stuff also, and I wish the heavier candy could be gummy too. (although the harder stuff is better if you want them to skip) Is the new candy softer than before?

Znash, the plastics vary because we do experiment and test market. Many of the upper level pros tend to like stiffer plastic, but most mid level players like a little softer and grippier. I tend to like softer and grippier. Also, there is a safety concern for the drivers. Ideally, I would like a plastic that has enough flex for safety and enough stiffness for a good feel. Make no mistake though, safety comes first. I do believe there are Candy Spiders left, but I am not sure.

Rob, the new candy is a little softer than originally. We were warned by the tech standards committee that the original blend was borderline too stiff.

DAVE do any of the old hammer molds still exist. Either the old small mold or the larger Fish mold??? And if so, what are the possibilities of a run of pro line small mold hammers? Or better yet, where is the stash of old small hammers??? I am running low and still have at least 20 years of this sport ahead of me. HELP.

Thanks for the reply Dave. I understand that there are more Am's than pro's which means that if you try to please the pro's then you neglect your primary consumers. But maybe if you produced a soft and a hard version of each disc so the minority of pro player that like the harder plastics are still happy.
Just think about it if you’re a pro which means that you need to be on top of your game. Then the less change you have to deal with the better you play but if I have to learn a new run of disc and your opposition has a stack of the old disc that he already knows you’re at a disadvantage.

What do you mean by safety. Ball golf doesn’t make a softer ball so if you get hit it doesn’t hurt they make them to go farer.

. We were warned by the tech standards committee that the original blend was borderline too stiff.



dave
what does that mean, that it's borderline dangerous ?

There is a standard for stiffness based on how much a disc will bow based on a weight placed upon it.

That is, if a weight of X pounds is applied to the edge of a disc, the disc must bow to a certain degree. Can't remember if the degree of deformation is a percentage of diameter or some other standard.

A stiff disc will not bow very much. An Omega Supersoft will bow a lot.

I don't agree with the adjective "dangerous", but I know what he means.

Dave, I was wondering if the new line of pro valks that will b coming out, will be similar to the flight characteristics of the Se Valk. Also I picked up a Warwick J-bird Stamped Archangel (174g) about 5 months ago, and it was quite overstable, not similar to its dx brother. Only after about 40-50 rounds in dense new england forests has it began to fly like the dx version in the same weight. I was wondering why this happened, and to say im not complaining because this combination of glide and overstablity has made it one of my favorite drivers. Finally I would like to thank you for taking the time out of your schedule to answer our questions. I think that connections like this between manufacturers and consumers makes this sport unique, and allows those of us who are obsessed with this sport to have our questions answered by a credible source.

sandbagger, the Hammers still exist. At some point in time, we will have a run of Pro Original Hammers (Small size), but probably not this year as production time and warehouse space are scarce.

forgiven one, it means borderline too stiff for the tech standards of the PDGA.

williethekid, there will be a run of Pro Valks out of SE type plastic. Already did a test run. This run indicated that these Valks will be somewhat more stable than the original SEs. All this really means is that they will last longer than the originals as they are just as domey and as they wear will fly just like the originals.

Ball golf may not have as many safety concerns because it isn't played in public parks where kids play and people walk. The last thing disc golf needs is for some kid to get seriously hurt by a golf disc.

Having discs in two different stiffnesses sounds like a good idea though if it works for the manufacturer. Dave, I noticed your PDGA number is under 1000 -- how far does that go back? And how has your rating (game) varied with age? From where I'm sitting -- it is pretty darn high, but then you do know disc golf.

It's already happened. Quite a few years back at the New Lenox, IL course a woman was hit, HARD. The first hole is a straight almost anhyzer shot. You can play a big hyzer over the pavilion in the park if you wish. This was during casual play and the pavilion was full with picnickers. Some gome tried to play the hyzer and his shot went into the pavilion nailing this woman in the head. The shooter then proceeded to LEAVE!! Needless to say the course was pulled. A few years back we finally got it put back in. Sorry for the thread drift.

i've seen a guy go to the hospital for stiches as a result of a first run CE firebird hitting him in the forehead at a very high veloicity. not a pretty site. now back to the thread. dave (or anyone who knows) what are the flight characteristics of a small diameter hammer? i've heard great things about this disc and i'm considering finding a couple to try/add to collection. much thanks

also dave, do you know the run numbers on the new pro teebirds? thanks again.

"sandbagger, the Hammers still exist. At some point in time, we will have a run of Pro Original Hammers (Small size), but probably not this year as production time and warehouse space are scarce. " from Dave

WOW!!!! You have made my day. Hell I'll give you space to store the things and I'll even come and make them for free if you want. I don't know if I can wait another year. But I'm glad to hear that they are on the way.

To the guy who wanted to know what small mold hammers do...picture the flip of a cobra or aviar with the glide of a classic roc. They are just the coolest gentlest flight ever. I just like the shallow rim of the hammers.

sounds great!

Rob, I got my number in 79 along with several hundred others. We all chose our numbers then. I could have had a number as low as 400 something as my friend Jim Olsen got at the same time. My game has declined with lack of good practice and injuries rather than age. My body is relatively healthy now, allowing overheads and sidearms that have been missing the past few years, so my rating should go up this year, hopefully to the 990s if all goes well.

PCPaul, the original hammer was a similar flyer to the XD. It was a little faster and tougher. The best Hammers were the brick red run with the super tough rubbery plastic.

PCPaul, the run numbers of the first new run of Pro TeeBirds would probably be a little different from the general TeeBirds. The ones I tested were slightly high speed unstable giving them a -1 for high speed stability. All other numbers would be the same. We are currently doing a second run that I expect to be a little more high speed stable, but I haven't tested them yet.

Dave, how light will the new Pro T'Birds get?

dave what i was meaning to ask was how many were run in the first run of the pro teebirds? thanks and sorry about the confusion.

circle 2, the Pro Tbirds have been as light as 150 gms. If I can remember to go by the shop tomorrow, I will be able to test them.

PCPaul, I don't know the amount we ran, but approximately 5000.

My game has declined with lack of good practice and injuries rather than age. My body is relatively healthy now, allowing overheads and sidearms that have been missing the past few years, so my rating should go up this year, hopefully to the 990s if all goes well.



Dave, maybe then you can talk Innova into sponsoring you :D

I used to lament that I broke into disc golf too late, but when I see what guys like yourself and other masters and grandmasters can do, I realize I am 42 years young and the sky is the limit. Thanks for all you have done and do for disc golf.

Dave, maybe then you can talk Innova into sponsoring you

i donno, i think that discraft could scoop him up

Dave,
How about the next ce roc being in the 8x mold( i think thats just a dream), but how about remaking the fl as a cfr. Any hope of that coming true? Also i have heard allegations on the NEFA thread of a disc called the skull which would have been the driver to end all drivers. Supposedly the orc is the Skull's little brother. Obviously for business reasons releasing such a disc would be a problem, however is this some kinda of Innova conspriacy ;)

talk innova into sponsoring dave? that's funny considering dave is a huge part of innova. :D

willie, I play with an FL myself so I will figure a way to make more. Never heard of the Skull.

I would love it if the FL was brought back, since I have not found anything to replace it, and they aren't easy to get your hands on in CE plastic.

i recently saw a champ spider with snowflakes in the stamp. do you guys plan on putting more stamps out like this with other things in the foil? some $$$ signs or other stuff would be cool. maybe put little baskets in the foil or maybe the innova logo really small.

talk innova into sponsoring dave? that's funny considering dave is a huge part of innova. :D



i was hoping it would bring a few smiles :D

Hey Dave,
Some of us are planning a putter only round. The question has arisen as to whether a Classic Roc counts as a putter or a mid-range. I say mid-range, but the player wanting to use it for this event says that it's related to the XD, and therefore a putter. Could you be the judge and classify it for us? Thanks.

www.innovadiscs.com/discs/index.html (http://www.innovadiscs.com/discs/index.html) does not list the Roc in the putter category. Further more the Roc (http://www.innovadiscs.com/discs/roc.html) page says "The Roc is the number one professional mid-range driver." (But I'm not Dave /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif )

He said Classic Roc, not Roc. There is a difference.

Classic Roc is very putter-like but it is a midrange.

Hawkgammon, the XD is a Putt Approach disc and the Classic is a definitely related big bead XD. If the XD is legal, why not the Classic too? Just my opinion.

Dave,

Thanks for the opinion. We'll let the Classic Roc be used then.

Well the XD is labeled as a putter and the Classic Roc is not. Their flights are so similar, why don't you just give your CRoc wielding buddy an XD!

rcfristo, sorry for all the confusion, and I know there is cause for it. It should stop now as we have settled on what we want to call each line of plastic. The candy plastic is Champion. The former SE (white grippy) type is Pro. DX is still DX.

dave did you read my post about the special stamps

willie, I play with an FL myself so I will figure a way to make more. Never heard of the Skull.



That would be great! There seems to be a perfect gap for it in Innova's line between the Candy Teebird and Banshee. I don't throw that many different discs, but the FL would be in the bag! Now, you guys would probably want a new name...how about the Falcon? Or thunderbird? Maybe firehawk? Perhaps the Shadow...The Phenix would be a great name to bring back and appropriate considering the relation to the firebird...The ball's rolling...what do you other people think?

Innova discs with bird names seem destined for greatness! Aviar, Teebird, Firebird, Orc. (I think an Orc is a bird?) Thunderbird sounds good. Or Raptor. Or Pterodactyl...

Sorry Lee, I have no information about the stamps.

Innova discs with bird names seem destined for greatness! Aviar, Teebird, Firebird, Orc... Thunderbird sounds good. Or Raptor. Or Pteradactyl...



An Orc is a bird? I didn't know that.

I agree and my bag is about 90% bird discs. One name that I think would be awesome would be the Titan. Take it Dave! :)

I always thought the Eagle fit into the gap between the Teebird and the Banshee.

It does.

I find the eagle to be much closer to the teebird with maybe even less stability at high speeds.

Tbird
Firebird
Roc
Condor
Birdie
Raven
Eagle
Phenix
all bird discs by innova(that I can recall)

That would be great! There seems to be a perfect gap for it in Innova's line between the Candy Teebird and Banshee. I don't throw that many different discs, but the FL would be in the bag! Now, you guys would probably want a new name...how about the Falcon? Or thunderbird? Maybe firehawk? Perhaps the Shadow...The Phenix would be a great name to bring back and appropriate considering the relation to the firebird...The ball's rolling...what do you other people think?
Or Raptor. Or Pterodactyl...





Phenix, Raptor are already used as was the Shadow by DiscC. Firehawk, Thunderbird or Falcon seem approp. Pterodactyl sounds like a big platter disc. :D Maybe a rolling thumber type of disc.

You forgot Aviar

I(I think an Orc is a bird?)



In classical mythology, an orc is a sea monster that preys on human flesh. In Book 6 of Historia Naturalis, Pliny the Elder describes it as a "monster armed with teeth."

I(I think an Orc is a bird?)



In classical mythology, an orc is a sea monster that preys on human flesh. In Book 6 of Historia Naturalis, Pliny the Elder describes it as a "monster armed with teeth."



Maybe I'm being gullible but I'm fairly confident that the name is in reference to the Orcs in the Trilogy of the Ring.

The Falcon was a Lightning disc of years ago.

Chap

I don't mean to be ignorant but what is a FL? A Firebird/Leopard? :confused:

PT Woods
# 20431

Firebird- less stable. Used to be made in the old Champion Edition plastic but not since. Hopefully again soon! It's not a firebird with a leopard bottom as so many people think. The mold was tweeked to make it less stable. Very nice discs.

Tbird
Firebird
Roc
Condor
Birdie
Raven
Eagle
Phenix
all bird discs by innova(that I can recall)





There was also the Pegasus, Griffin, the Archangel, dragon, and Valk but none of those are really birds. They are flying creatures tho. And we mussent forget the Classic Roc lol!

The falcon would be a sweet disc if it was made by millenium...think about it!

Maybe I'm being gullible but I'm fairly confident that the name is in reference to the Orcs in the Trilogy of the Ring.



That may well be; however, the use of "Orc" (always capitalized in Tolkein, BTW) for a humanoid race (which he equates with "goblin" in The Hobbit) (p. 1) originates with Tolkein.

Be that as it may, the orc of myth and legend is always a sea monster (see, in addition to Pliny, Ludovicio Ariosto's Orlando Furioso, and Tolkein's notes in his translation of Sir Gwain and the Green Knight): a fact reflected in the scientific name of the Killer Whale: orcinus orca.

The Falcon or the Albatross, or even the vulture would be a great name for a disc! Much better than Orc, Beast, Crush, Viking IMHO.

Also, maybe some kind of celestial name would be cool! The Quazar, The M31, The Galaxy, The constelation, The little dipper (putter), The Orion, the Andromeda. It would be great to see some discs like that, even though I'm sure some of these names have been used in the past.

The Supernova would be a great name for the next driver, even though Innova already has a supernova. :cool:

For drivers anyways, I think they're trying to get "lineups" of similar distance discs, grouping the birds together (fire, tee and eagle) the norse legends together (viking and valkyrie) and the creatures together (beast, orc, monster) I gather thats why Innova named their new driver (that was supposed to be a modified beast, and hence in the same lineup) the Orc

I would love to see a wind disc called the Tempest.

I'm sure I could make a most excellent retro 80s stamp for the Tempest...

http://www.ataritimes.com/arcade/images/tempest.gif

How about a disc that comes in left and right handed versions called 'The Aggie'?

*I can make fun...I are one....*

More Retro Stamps Please...I love the Brick Aviar stamp, I want that on the Pro Plastic..
Cheers,
Matt

"The Dragonfly" might be a good name for an all purpose or approach disc.

"Dragonflies have four wings that can move independently. Dragonflies hover, fly backward and roll with ease. Each wing has a high strength-to-weight ratio and can beat 35 times a second, allowing for in-flight feeding. From a still, mid-air position, dragonflies can accelerate to over 60 miles an hour in less than a second. The US military has spent millions to better understand their unusual design.

Their namesake arises from the toothed jaw and hinged lip that they use to consume other airborne insects. Despite appearances, dragonflies are harmless to humans. In fact, they help to control other insect pests in addition to having an amazing diversity of color."

For drivers anyways, I think they're trying to get "lineups" of similar distance discs, grouping the birds together (fire, tee and eagle) the norse legends together (viking and valkyrie) and the creatures together (beast, orc, monster) I gather thats why Innova named their new driver (that was supposed to be a modified beast, and hence in the same lineup) the Orc



That makes sense. I think I read a Lord of the Rings junkie to say that an Orc is a "nasty beast" and I'd say it is living up to its name in the finest sense :D

Dave, I heard DX-Vikings are coming out soon. How about DX-Orcs? I would hope the DX-Vikings would be more overstable.

I personally like the DX Beasts over the Champion plastic. The DX are more predictable and less flippy.

My $.02

PT Woods
# 20431

Dave, I heard DX-Vikings are coming out soon. How about DX-Orcs? I would hope the DX-Vikings would be more overstable.



I'll second that request. Please Dave. Thx

DX Vikings have had to wait as production schedules have gotten cramped. We have to make sure we stock the discs we have already, before we can introduce new types. When we make them and what type we make in Orcs or Vikings is up in the air right now. For the near term, they will only be available in Candy, although we did a test of Pro in the Orc that went okay.

How Many test discs (Orc SE) did you run Dave? can I get some? I'll give you all 2.37$ in my pocket...and how 'bout my first born child ;)

Ive been liking this growing trend of discs starting more overstable. Good stuff. Feel free to make that gator in pro plastic really stable too. Or maybe in kc...yeah that be cool too. Any kc plastic, I got 15 a piece no prob. Actually on a dif. note I think you guys should make another really overstable kc roc soon. Maybe next years or whatever. My count says 2 runs in a row of turnover ones. ..

Actually if innova has enough plastic for it they should try out some other things in the hard kc plastic. that would be cool too. wonder if fast drivers would break.

I always thought that Innova only made discs in KC plastic that Ken throws?? I don't think he has a gator in the bag.

Question hard or soft disc (http://www.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=169578&page=&view=&sb=5&o=&PHPSESSID= ) what is your preference?!!

Hay Dave Its has been a while how about a hard and soft line of disc that would be available at the same time. Like the Champion Spider H or the B.S. Beast S. Just an ideal!.

P.S. Those new disc feel like wash rags.

Znash, that's a good idea. Unfortunately, like a lot of things we want to carry, we cant because of a space limitation at this time.

Dave,
I have a new CE Stingray that held up to an older DX "97" Stingray it appear's to be a few centimeter's bigger in diameter? Is this a normal variance?

Thanx for your time :cool:

maybe the DX is smaller because it is beat up.

If its a few cm different thats one beat up disc 3cm is over an inch so thats a lot. If he meant millimeters then i think that ur prob right.

sfsdgolf, it is a normal variance that has to do with the plastic and molding parameters, not the mold.

Thanx Dave

Yes i was refering to MM not CM Thanx :cool:

Dave,

Those first run Gazelles back in 1994, did that mold become the cheetah? The second run had the bead added to the bottom of the disc and I noticed the cheetahs and first run gazelles looked extremely similar.

Just curious,
Ray :cool:

Dave hows the SE Orc coming along... can you give us all a time frame? thanks once again.

Dave, have you guys ever considered running the floating plastic in different molds? Water seems to be popping up on more courses these days and a floating all-purpose type disc would be really helpful.

The Cheetah was a separate mold. The original Gazelle was a killer flyer but didn't have the control we wanted. That bead was the retool.

Jaymo, I had to stop the Pro Orc run because we were getting behind on the regular production. We will resume when we can, but it won't be for several weeks at our present rate.

discspeed, we have considered it and have had other floating discs such as the Dolphin in the past. Right now the Dragon is by far and away our most popular floating disc. The lastest run is actually very good. Not a good putter or short approach, but a really good mid and long range driver for a 150 gm disc. I assume you might want a heavier floater like the Hammerhead. Eventually, we will have something in the floating mid and driver that is close to max, but it will have to wait for now. Thanks

thanks dave, keep us posted... :D

Thanks Dave. I'd always thought the cheetah was a gazelle w/o the bead. :o
Now I know :D

Dave,

How does the durability of an Omega Supersoft compare to a DX Aviar Putter? Since I've started using the DX I see it getting chewed up quickly.

I have a question about Champion Orcs and Rhynos pertaining to dyes:

At a tournament, a friend bought a Rhyno and was charged for a dye he didn't even see. It turns out it's an orange dye on an orange disc and is small, but still cool. I have a light blue Orc with a blue dye similar to that. Are these actually dyes or is it just a new way that the plastic is being blended/mixed/something I don't know?

Thanks,
Shane

do you mean like the Rhyno on the Innova website? with the purpley swirl on the green disc? b/c I have seen that on alot of discs and I don't think it is a "dye job" but it might be...

do you mean like the Rhyno on the Innova website? with the purpley swirl on the green disc? b/c I have seen that on alot of discs and I don't think it is a "dye job" but it might be...



They look similar to that except that the dye color is more similar to the plastic color. That's why I'm inclined to believe that it's not a dye, so I'm curious as to the cause of it. It's also happened in two discs that I've seen (williethekid's Rhyno and my Orc), so it is most likely something in the mixing of Champion plastic now, but I'm not sure. Dave?

I also have it on a champ beast along the rim

i have also seen it a few times on various new champion discs although i dont own any. I dont have any answers but i think that it has to do with the plastic and not someone dying it. That sucks if your friend got charged for a dye and it wasnt

Hawkgammon, the Omega supersoft is more durable. They do wear, but they wear slowly compared to a regular DX putter.

shanest, that doesnt sound like a dyed disc, it sounds like a color swirl. Dyes are usually on the top of the disc. The color swirls go right through the disc.

Thanks as always Dave.

Dave:

I am sure you have been asked this before but, when will the regular pro line orcs and beasts be coming out? I see you ran some pro line orcs for the japan open sponsor discs. Just wondering.

Yeah I just asked Dave, (2 pages back) and he said not for a few weeks... :D

He said they are running low on regular Orcs so they are doing more of those now.

Hey Dave

Not certain you were asked this question in this post:

I was curious what methods are used to test the stability/speed, and just overall flight characteristics of each model disc Innova produces.

Is it a machine that is set to whirl it at a set angle and speed each time? If so, how do you mesure the exact speed/rotation of the disc?

It's just something i've always wondered..


A few more quick questions- will there ever be a DX Monster? I would love to see thoes, or even a Champion Monster X.

Will you ever bring back the ProLine Monsters? I miss that run!

Also, I think you guys should make a disc called "The Monkey" :)

diron, testing is done by my staff and friends who play with them on courses they are familiar with. The monsters probably wont be run in dx but may be in the new Pro. Look for the next run of candy Monsters to be a little faster and a little more high speed stable overall. The original plastic used was almost impossible to produce any discs except extreme weight.

I highly suggest running a DX Monster.. I would love to be able to get my hands on thoes and beat 'em up. Something about this disc just feels right in my hands. I call it love :D

I noticed with the First Run Aviar and Teebird the plastic itself is a little floppy (some may prefer it but I certainly don't) Do you know if it will be the same with the monster?

Anyways, thanks for answering my question :cool:

I highly suggest running a DX Monster.



HAHAHA.

Dave, I "highly suggest" bringing back old CE plastic. Gee, I wonder if that will get it done. :p

diron, if you are talking about the new Pro plastic, then yes, the Pro Monster will feel similar.

I highly suggest running a DX Monster.



HAHAHA.

Dave, I "highly suggest" bringing back old CE plastic. Gee, I wonder if that will get it done. :p




I think running a DX Disc is just a tad more realistic then running the old CE from a zillion years ago grandpa! :cool::) :D:p

I highly suggest running a DX Monster.



HAHAHA.

Dave, I "highly suggest" bringing back old CE plastic. Gee, I wonder if that will get it done. :p




I think running a DX Disc is just a tad more realistic then running the old CE from a zillion years ago grandpa! :cool::) :D:p



I don't think you got the joke. I was saying that you "strongly suggesting" doesn't mean much. Not trying to be mean but it doesn't. Dave already said that they weren't gonna do it.

People like their plastic to be shiny and clear, so thats what Innova gives em.

I would take DX over Champion any day!

"H" Plastic is really grippy, and pretty durable. Great when its in the right hands!

yeah I couldn't live without my H Wizard! And H Speed dmeons are sweet. H Demons are too domey for my hands.

I get it KidRoc..

But that's all a suggestion is, ones personal opinion

I realize it probably won't shift any opinions at Innova, but it never hurts to ask

I get it KidRoc..

But that's all a suggestion is, ones personal opinion

I realize it probably won't shift any opinions at Innova, but it never hurts to ask



I understood what you meant. I was just giving you some grief. No worries. :)

Dave, is there any way to run the new proline material without the discs coming out so domey? The dome on the new teebirds is about 1/2 inch taller than dx, unlike the old 10X which were at least as flat as dx. IMHO the flatter ones were much more stable and more desirable.

Dave, is there any way to run the new proline material without the discs coming out so domey? The dome on the new teebirds is about 1/2 inch taller than dx, unlike the old 10X which were at least as flat as dx. IMHO the flatter ones were much more stable and more desirable.


I have to agree with you on that one the new disc are domed and there for more under stable (also the softer the plastic, the more of a dome it gets while in flight).

Yeah, the only exception I've found to the dome rule, is the Speed Demon. As far as the Prolines go,I would love to see a flatter version. My dad loves the plastic, but wants more stability.

No!!! Don't change the Pro Birds! They are great the way they are. There are other T-bird choices that are more stable. Thanks Dave for the great disc.

Actually the Pro material has always been this way and even if it were stiffer, (which it can be), it would still be domey or even more domey. The stability is another matter, not related to domeyness directly.

Sweet... so that means you can make a disc that is really domey (more glide) that can also be overstble.... thats kinda the idea behind the Orc (or at least the heavy ones) I would love to see a Pro Orc, that is a bit stiffer than the current Teebirds, and domey but still retains its high speed stability..

well, we can all hope can't we... :D

I understood what you meant. I was just giving you some grief. No worries. :)



Surrrrrrrreeeeeeeee :p

I saw a new KC Pro Roc yesterday that didn't have 11x World Champion mumbojumbo written around the circular ring on the stamp. Is this a new KC Roc? And since Ken Climo didn't win the worlds in 2003 there is no 12x????
That would make sence to me, just wondering if that is what is going to happen. And if these discs are the same as the 11x mold.
Cheers,
Matt

Hey Dave what are the specs on the new Q-sentinel?? I mean how does it fly compared to a 11X KC roc?? I have heard it compared to an overstable Cobra... does this mean it's High speed stable and comes back hyzer at the end? thanks in advance. :D

go to www.sunkingdiscs.com (http://www.sunkingdiscs.com) and look at discs there. They rate ALL discs using the innova scale, so its really helpful for comparing.

jaymo, I think you should take discgraham's advice about going to the site, but my input would be that it is a more stable Cobra. It is faster than a Roc, with less carry, and more overstable at low speed. High speed is comparable I think. Others on this thread might have some good feedback as I dont throw this particular disc.

sweet thanks guys... :D

I think it is just a tad more overstable than a roc but less than a z-wasp.

Hey Dave,
This may be a terrible idea but do you know if anyone has tried more complex surfaces on discs to reduce drag (like a golf ball)? Of course the aerodymanics of a disc are very different from a golf ball so this may only make a disc completely unusable (i.e. dimples on the top only would reduce the drag on top creating more lift than you might want, not to mention what it might do the the stability). You'd have to keep this type of thing away from the edge so you can grip the disc on a smooth surface. Just wondering if this was ever looked at. (Sorry by the way if this question has been asked a lot).

I seem to remember Ching? doing something like that a few years ago.

cantrel, there was a disc called the dimple which did this very thing. Put dimples on a disc. Not surprisingly, it did nothing helpful as dimples only work on a sphere.

Thanks Dave. I figured as much or else there would be discs like this on the market today.

I seem to remember Ching? doing something like that a few years ago.



I don't think they actually "did" it. A full page ad in the DGWN does not a production run make. :)

Ching! was trying to make "grip dents" not dimples for aerodynamics.

...
This may be a terrible idea but do you know if anyone has tried more complex surfaces on discs to reduce drag (like a golf ball)? ...



Wasn't this the main idea behind the Wham-O frisbee "flight rings" (a.k.a. "lines of Headrick") on the outer part of the top, still to be seen on their new line of golf discs, "Touchline"?

I like the Whamo rings much more than the Lightning rings!

Cantrell - CHING has completed the first final mold in a new series that features a complex contoured surface. We expect to begin shipping this summer. Small dimples may not alter the flight + or -, however strategically placed larger 'thumb bunkers' can direct performance of a spinning disc...although ergonomics is the most obvious benefit.

HHHHMMMMMM......VERY VERY VERY VERY INTERESTING :D:p

:cool:

Yes, very interesting. I can see how that might help. Thanks for the info. I'm looking forward to throwing this disc.

Cantrell - CHING has completed the first final mold in a new series that features a complex contoured surface. We expect to begin shipping this summer. Small dimples may not alter the flight + or -, however strategically placed larger 'thumb bunkers' can direct performance of a spinning disc...although ergonomics is the most obvious benefit.



And I thought when I was doing that to my ss putters I was being original :D

...
This may be a terrible idea but do you know if anyone has tried more complex surfaces on discs to reduce drag (like a golf ball)? ...



Wasn't this the main idea behind the Wham-O frisbee "flight rings" (a.k.a. "lines of Headrick") on the outer part of the top, still to be seen on their new line of golf discs, "Touchline"?



Yes. In theory at least, the Lines of Headrick act as vortex generators, reducing the drag caused when air flowing over the disc suddenly breaks over the outer edges leaving a low-pressure pocket trailing behind. The microvortices generated by the Lines stabilize the flight pattern, allowing the disc to fly farther. (For an overview of disc physics, see Louis A. Bloomfield, "Flight of the Frisbee," Scientific American, April 1999. Note, however, that physicist Michael Gold, in an essay entitled "The Fairy Tale Physics of Frisbees," cautions that the efficacy of the Lines has never been scientifically demonstrated.)

Felix, whenever I see that you've posted, I read it. I almost always learn something. :D

...and he's as nice as he is wise.

You mean the "grip rings" on the inside of the rim ! I have a #2 Flyer (I think), the rings were really painful if your using the powergrip, after a few throws it went up on the "discwall" instead. One of the worst discs a bought.

PS I think I�ve to edit my post on the thread "Worst disc you ever bought" :D

The Dimple were made in two versions by Destiny/dynamic Disc (Jan Sobel), original and CDS.

I saw a new KC Pro Roc yesterday that didn't have 11x World Champion mumbojumbo written around the circular ring on the stamp. Is this a new KC Roc? And since Ken Climo didn't win the worlds in 2003 there is no 12x????
That would make sence to me, just wondering if that is what is going to happen. And if these discs are the same as the 11x mold.
Cheers,
Matt



I never got an answer....thought I would post it again...thanks

Yes to first two questions but not sure if the new ones fly like the 11x.

Dave, I have noticed that the champion plastic is a little different from disc to disc. For example, monsters are almost always an opaque, rubbery plastic. Banshees are opaque and clear, but always hard. Orcs are clearish-opaque and pretty hard as well...Do you guys do this to manipulate flight, or is there another reason? Do you test different molds in different champion variations? Thanks.

discspeed, different discs require different plastic combinations to run effectively, and in the weights demanded. Banshees can run down into the 140 gm range, and a Monster wont run below the 160s for example. Lighter plastics are more flexible generally, and a mix is used to determine weights.

Is there anything special about blue candy plastic that makes it more overstable? I have heard others talk about this before, and in my limited experience I have found evidence. For example I have a blue champion panther, a red one, and a green. They all weigh the same on a scale (173g). The blue and red are like different discs with the blue flying almost Roc stable, and the red like a stingray. The green is in between. I also have a red and a blue Viking (both 173g), which also fly like different discs (blue much more stable). I am just curious as to if this is a fluke, or something I should consider when buying new plastic. Thanks again.

discspeed, I think it is a fluke. But, having said that, I wouldnt be too surprised if there were something to it on a limited basis. Nothing I am aware of though. You could ask others on the message board if they have noticed this phenomenon. That might be useful.

Dave, are there any plans to release a 20th anniversary Aviar -- perhaps in candy or as a CFR?

Oooohhh, Champion Glow Aviar? Dave, could it happen?

Beadless!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :cool::cool::cool::cool:

Dave, I have some aviar questions... I really tried to look for a good thread, but I couldn't find one that really addressed the issue I am considering... the "height" of the disc...

Basically, I know the difference b/w Big, Small, and No Beads but there seems to be a difference b/w the height of the disc... I have 4 different aviar molds (including the omega) The KC pro (11x) seems to be the slenderest. The regular P&A seems to have the same mold as both my Q and supersoft plastic omegas, with the small bead... and then there is my Champion Aviar (new champion plastic) which has a big bead, but is very domey (unlike the other big bead KC disc)... so my question to you is, how many different molds are there? or am I totally whacked? :confused:

thanks in advance...

Ohh yeah and P.S. how's that SE Orc coming???

Robj, good idea. Hadn't really thought about it, but I like it. Thanks.

jaymo, we have two complete Aviar molds and an additional part. We usually only use two combinations that make either putter type or driver type. Most of the variation that you are talking about comes from plasitic and molding, rather than mold types. However, the Champion is a putter mold with a big bead.

Oooohhh, Champion Glow Aviar? Dave, could it happen?



BIG BEAD!!!!!!

Dave,

When did the JK aviar first come out and was it a big bead or what version?

Thanks in advance,
Ray :cool:

Ray, the JK Aviar X came out about three years ago. It is a big bead driver type Aviar.

Ray, the JK Aviar X came out about three years ago. It is a big bead driver type Aviar.


I would like some JK Aviar X's in Glow plastic :eek:
Or Candy Glow JK Aviar X's. :D
Sorry about that Dave, I'm still on medication /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

I thought the JK and KC Avairs were the same mold, Big bead. Just different plastic.

Is that right Dave?

Correct, although champion aviars that bear KC's name have been run in big and small beads.

Robj, good idea. Hadn't really thought about it, but I like it. Thanks.



It is such a sweet disc; paying tribute to it on its 20th anniversary seems appropriate :D

I would like some JK Aviar X's in Glow plastic :eek:
Or Candy Glow JK Aviar X's. :D
Sorry about that Dave, I'm still on medication /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif



Don, you sound quite lucid to me :D

I would like some JK Aviar X's in Glow plastic :eek:
Or Candy Glow JK Aviar X's. :D
Sorry about that Dave, I'm still on medication /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif



Don, you sound quite lucid to me :D


C'mon Rob.........you just never know........ :eek: :D:D

Robj, good idea. Hadn't really thought about it, but I like it. Thanks.



It is such a sweet disc; paying tribute to it on its 20th anniversary seems appropriate :D


I just may have one Bronzed !!!!! :eek:

Anything with JK Aviar-x in the title sounds great to me. I like the idea of a glow JK Aviar-x only tournament. :p

Dave,

I don�t want to sound like a total dumb[*****], this being my first post and question. I guess this is more of a request. The Teebird is one of the best discs ever made. I am of the opinion the ROC, Eagle, and Teebird are the best discs ever made! To this end the 10X KC versions were some of the best made. Given the advancements in both manufacturing and plastic technology. Why can�t these disc be remade?

Dave,

You were talking about Pro XD during the spring. Is it close to be made?

10x teebird is also a fave of mine. the new pro [se] flys similar--but is a little slower [more dome] and floppier [not as stiff] is there a way to make this new pro pastic come out a little stiffer? maybe with less dome as well. just my 2 cents

true- they should mix in some of that kc roc plastic. that might work.

Is there going to be a run of TL's in the new pro plastic, or any plastic as an actual run( as opposed to CFR)? I like the new teebirds but i'm a bigger fan of TL's. Also do you have an approximate date when the new Pro valk's will be out? Thanks

Browntrout, I am not sure what your question is, but if you are asking why the !0X can't be made again, they can. They were a recapitulation of the 8X or Ontario type Roc (even though they do say Rancho Cucamonga). The 10X were run that way because of a request by several of our teem members. The request for the next run was to make them more stable like the Ranchos, so we did. Next run may be back to Ontario depending what Kenny and the other team guys want at the time.

Geirod, yes, I think so. Should be made after the current run of Pro Classic Rocs is done.

steven, the Pro plasic is naturally domey and when it is mixed with another plastic, it gets softer and grippier. It could possibly be made less domey, and stiffer, but it would have to be mixed with another plastic and would be less grippy.

willie, I believe the plans for the TL are to be a TLS for millennium in the same plastic.

Dave, I have been looking for some opaque yellow QJLS (orange ones were good to). Seemed like they were made in early runs? I can only find clear to partially clear yellow/green as of late. Did something change or are they still being made?
Also, would a climate controlled environment (humidity, temp) make a difference in consistency of the disc/plastic or does the machine temp changes during molding have more impact than the environment? Thanks!

scoob, most of the opaque jls's are not QJLS. Regular JLS's are all opaque. A climate controlled invironment would certainly help consistency, but controlling the climate in a 20,000 sq ft warehouse would be very expensive. The machine does change temperature as the day wears on and that affects molding too.

I can't wait for the TLS to come! Will there be a QTLS version as well?

...Will there be a QTLS version as well?



Wouldn't that be a CFR CE TL :confused:

...Will there be a QTLS version as well?



Wouldn't that be a CFR CE TL :confused:



It would be awesome if there were some Q's made with that opaque Q plastic. The clear would be the same as the CFR TL.

Opaque or clear plastic won't matter to me as long as they fly like TL's and they cost as much as a regular candy disc.

Um Dave,

There were some opaque QJLSs made. I have a lot of them and most of them say "QJLS" on the front.

I think he meant to say, did Millenium change plastic too because the older QJLSs were opaque. Currently they are clear/translucent.

CFR Glo TLs have "TL" written on the bottom and a sticker with "Glo TLS". So you can buy a candy TLS right now ;)

Plankeye, do you have any of the old QJLS in yellow that you would be willing to trade or sell?
Has anyone thrown the glow CFR T or TL? They look and feel like the old CE's (less domey and stiffer). I just have not thrown one yet. Any insight would be helpful.

I throw the GLO TL. It is great. I love that disc. A little less stable than the CFR TL's but much more grippy very durable.

I throw the GLO TL. It is great. I love that disc. A little less stable than the CFR TL's but much more grippy very durable.


May have to check that out. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

I throw the GLO TL. It is great. I love that disc. A little less stable than the CFR TL's but much more grippy very durable.


Does a Glow Starfire exist ?

When's the TLS coming out?

CFR Glo TLs have "TL" written on the bottom and a sticker with "Glo TLS". So you can buy a candy TLS right now ;)


Glow TLS ? What ?

CFR Glo TLs have "TL" written on the bottom and a sticker with "Glo TLS". So you can buy a candy TLS right now ;)


Glow TLS ? What ?


We just got CFR discs made for Charlotte Disc Golf Club, (TLs, Glo TLs, Glo Banshees, Starfires, Archangeles, Classic Rocs) and on the bottom of the Glo TLs is a sticker with:
GLO TLS
www.innovadisc.com (http://www.innovadisc.com)
Hand written in ink on the bottom:
TL
(wt)
GLO
That's why I said you can buy a candy TLS right now ;)

And as Kid Roc said, it is sweet, so is the CFR Glow T
If you like Teebirds, you will like both of these.

I have a question for Dave.
I found this old innova disc I used to use when I was a kid called a Mirage.
http://qcdiscgolf.com/Mirage.jpg
A very small diameter disc with a putter like rim. Very light weight. Just wondering if you had any info on it, like when it was made and its purpose. Thanks Brad

Hi,
this is a Aviar Putter mold under another name.

Its alot smaller and has a much different lip than any aviar I have ever used.
Brad

Brad, it is an Aviar made of unweighted plastic. These were mainly marketed in Japan. It was one of our first attempts at packaged discs. About 1989. The shape and size is due to the plastic it was molded from.

thats pretty cool, i've never even heard of one untill now.

Are there any other instancs like this one?

discin, if you are asking me, yes the Zephyr and Apple were unweighted packaged discs. Although we don't have packages any more, the discs are still available except the Apple.

discin, if you are asking me, yes the Zephyr and Apple were unweighted packaged discs. Although we don't have packages any more, the discs are still available except the Apple.



Dave,

I have several beadless, patent pending Aviars , circa 1958-1986, that are in the 105-119g weight range. (Wish I still had the original boxes they came in too. :() Were Aviars from that period made of unweighted plastic?

As always, thanks for taking the time to reply.

1958?

Dave, I have a Roc question for you. Is there only 1 Rancho mold? The different runs of KC's are different and I was just wondering if that was a mold change or just the way that the different plastic cools. Thanks.

1958?



Oops. Make that !985. :o

discin, if you are asking me, yes the Zephyr and Apple were unweighted packaged discs. Although we don't have packages any more, the discs are still available except the Apple.



Dave,

I have several beadless, patent pending Aviars , circa 1958-1986, that are in the 105-119g weight range. (Wish I still had the original boxes they came in too. :() Were Aviars from that period made of unweighted plastic?

As always, thanks for taking the time to reply.



What do you guys mean by "Unweighted"?

There is a weighting agent added to the plastic allowing heavier discs to be made. If you have a disc mold, the discs that are produced are going to weigh "X" grams everytime (give or take a couple grams), because the same amount of plastic is going to fit into that mold. So to add weight and keep the disc the same size an "agent" is mixed in that has a heavier density than the plain plastic.

I hope thats clear as mud.

Long story short...unweighted discs don't have the aforementioned weighting "agent"

There is a weighting agent added to the plastic allowing heavier discs to be made. If you have a disc mold, the discs that are produced are going to weigh "X" grams everytime (give or take a couple grams), because the same amount of plastic is going to fit into that mold. So to add weight and keep the disc the same size an "agent" is mixed in that has a heavier density than the plain plastic.

I hope thats clear as mud.



I always wondered how heavier discs were made w/o affecting the mold. Very insightful, thanks!!

In the late 80's they gave out light weight "Premium" Aviars in the players package. These weighed about 100g. Innova used to have a old school Roc in light weight also, was great for MTA.

I have 2 of those Rocs. :)

I have 2 of those Rocs. :)



Man, I'd like one of those babies to MTA with, but i suppose they are grounded or walled though, aren't they? :p

I could see why though!

In the late 80's they gave out light weight "Premium" Aviars in the players package. These weighed about 100g. Innova used to have a old school Roc in light weight also, was great for MTA.


The Aviars I'm talking about weren't Premies; they were bought off-the-shelf at a sporting goods store in Raleigh, NC.

I think you're talking about the ones that came in a blue cardboard box. On the back it had a picture of the Innova crew, Dave, Tim, .... The stamp has 6 circles and Aviar across the middle. Across the top it reads "The leading edge in flying disc technology", and "For disc sports by Innova" across the bottom. Mine is like 150g, never seen any heavier ones that came like that. They sold here like at Big 5 Sporting Stores. I've got a few, only one with the box. Nice old collectors disc's.

felix, we did make both weighted and non weighted. Non weighted weighed about 105gms, which we referred to as premium. We also made a softer version called the Mirage. A 119gm is unusual but we made a few now and then in transition from heavy to light or vice versa.

Kid Roc, there are three molds, but two are very similar. The different runs were due to different variations. Blunt nose are straighter flying generally, and sharper nosed are a little more overstable.

Kid Roc, I should say three Rancho variations. There are also 9 other possible variations of Rocs we don't use, including the Ontario variations. Plus we have the Classic Roc.

DAVE...other than for collector reasons, and assuming that the marino, and ontario roc molds still exist. Is there any reason that a run of these could not be made???? I know that there are many of us who love the old ontario rocs and san marino rocs. How about a special limited edition run as a fundrasier disc or something like that???? Im getting sick of cracking my old triple ring sani's right down the middle

Chris, the San Marino and Ontario were the same mold, with different engraving with the center sprue area welded, whcih is why the ring disappeared. The differences in runs was due to material and molding differences rather than a different mold. There is no reason why why couldn't run an Ontario, but we feel the two main Ranchos, blunt and not blunt, takes care of most users. Add to that the material differences and there are a lot of Roc variations still out there. A special run could be made, but because the material is what produced the difference between San Marino and Ontario, I don't feel it would be appropriate. And the collector guys might think ill of it.

I think you're talking about the ones that came in a blue cardboard box. On the back it had a picture of the Innova crew, Dave, Tim, .... The stamp has 6 circles and Aviar across the middle. Across the top it reads "The leading edge in flying disc technology", and "For disc sports by Innova" across the bottom. Mine is like 150g, never seen any heavier ones that came like that. They sold here like at Big 5 Sporting Stores. I've got a few, only one with the box. Nice old collectors disc's.



Yep. That's the one. Sure wIsh I stll had one in the box, though. :(

OTOH, I stopped by PIAS this afternoon and dropped $4 on a Carolina blue "Wings-n'-Rings" Roc (original triple ring SM mold, not the current Ontario "Classic Roc" mold) with a NC State red "Raleign Area Disc League - Disc Golf Capital of the East Coast hotstamp that I'd rate a 7-7.5/10. :) :) :) And to the dummy that traded it in for $1 ... THANK YOU!!!! :D

Dave, what Rocs are blunt nose and what are not?

A special run could be made, but because the material is what produced the difference between San Marino and Ontario, I don't feel it would be appropriate. And the collector guys might think ill of it.



As a collector I'd like to thank you for this statement and mind set. The new Roc's are great too.

Kid Roc, I believe you can see the difference comparing 10x and 9x KC Rocs. Or, comparing regular Rancho, to a 10x. I believe the 10x is the blunt nose.

okay thanks. The reason why I ask is I have seen ebay auctions for 10x Rocs in the 8x mold. I was under the impression that they used the same mold but the 10x plastic set up a little differently. Is there a mold difference between them and if so, was there a small run of 10x in the 8x mold?

Thanks.

Chris, the San Marino and Ontario were the same mold, with different engraving with the center sprue area welded, whcih is why the ring disappeared. The differences in runs was due to material and molding differences rather than a different mold. There is no reason why why couldn't run an Ontario, but we feel the two main Ranchos, blunt and not blunt, takes care of most users. Add to that the material differences and there are a lot of Roc variations still out there. A special run could be made, but because the material is what produced the difference between San Marino and Ontario, I don't feel it would be appropriate. And the collector guys might think ill of it.



I am a collector of Rocs and I wouldn't think ill of another run of Ontarios.

Dave, have you ever considered running a small run as a fundraiser disc? Kind of like you are doing with the Super Roc for Worlds. Just a thought. :)

Kid Roc, they may have set up differently or the 8x might have been an Ontario. I dont remember, sorry.

Okay, I don't think the 8x was an Ontario. I just figured that the super stiff 10x plastic was what made it fly differently.

it's strange that the material caused the difference between san marinos and ontarios. the san marinos seem to have a much sharper edge and almost no bead, while the ontarios are nice and comfy. i have a couple san marinos i'll probably dump for ontarios...

Hey Dave, not to be a bother or anything but... how are those Pro Orcs looking? ETA??? thanks :D

what was the deal with the rough gritty surface on the bottom of ontario rocs????? I love that feel.

Pro Orcs have been delayed again, and I am not sure when they will come out, but it's gotta be by June.......I hope. sorry

alright Dave, I gotta know about the 6th run of CE Valks mentioned in the definitive Ce Valk thread, don't tease us, are these true CE? I assume these will be fundraisers, correct? And when will we be able to get some so I can buy 100 of them :D...

Dave I saw posted that there will b a run of pro classic rocs, birdies, and sharks!!!! What happened with the valks, will they be out soon? Also when will the TLS be coming out? Thanks

Pro Orcs have been delayed again, and I am not sure when they will come out, but it's gotta be by June.......I hope. sorry


Wouldn't mind a Red Candy or CE Orc :eek:
That would be insane !!!! :D

Oh........ I would haved to agree. :D

Oh........ I would haved to agree. :D



second...

motion passed?

Geez, how many different plastics do you need for a roller disc? :D

Pro Orcs have been delayed again, and I am not sure when they will come out, but it's gotta be by June.......I hope. sorry



Hey Dave, what is the difference in the plastics on ORCS. Ive seen some recently that are a <font color="blue"> "Solid" Blue </font> ...not clear or Pearl..They feel slightly different and are "nicely domed" :D

alright Dave, I gotta know about the 6th run of CE Valks mentioned in the definitive Ce Valk thread, don't tease us, are these true CE? I assume these will be fundraisers, correct? And when will we be able to get some so I can buy 100 of them :D...



Say it aint so!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

adam, the plastic for the second run on has been the same with minor variations. Each run of Valks is a new run of candy. There was however, a run of less stable Valks about two runs ago, and the original run, which was the only run out of the original straigh material that turned out to be too stiff. We may go back to straight material in the heavier weights as that same material is now a little softer from the manufacturer. Lower weights will still be softer as they are a blend of softer and lower weight material.