I'd think a beadless roc would be pretty close to the MD-1, Shark or Aurora MS, but YMMV. And speaking of millennium discs, the QOLF is FANTASTIC. Kudos

Has the Rancho Roc ever been run without the bead? How does or would this fly?



The Roc was the first disc to have a bead and helps to define it. The Rancho mold could be run without a bead in three different versions, but they have not been tried as yet. Discmania, Millennium, and Innova all have potential versions of this disc. I could guess that these would fly like more stable versions of the MD-1, MS, and Shark respectively.

Has the Rancho Roc ever been run without the bead? How does or would this fly?



The Roc was the first disc to have a bead and helps to define it.



That's pretty cool. Who ever said history can't be fun was wrong :)

This question is for anyone that can answer: I've seen two types of Pro Firebirds lately; one has the same text as the DX Firebird. Is there any difference between the two below (besides being tye dyed)
http://www.sunkingdiscs.com/ProductImages/profirebirdl.jpg
http://www.sunkingdiscs.com/productimages/dprofirebird174g.jpg



I found a new proline firebird with the old stamp at a local retail store recently - it totally threw me off to see the old school stamp on the new pro FL mold. Weird to say the least.

I really liked that old pro-line plastic. I've had some excellent Leopards that lasted for years with that stuff.

The BLue one is PRO plastic.. this was being run when they re-vamped Pro plastic again right before star came out. This is true Pro plastic.
the TyeDye discs appears to be a Champion or Proline/candy Firebird. That stamp was on the Candy Pro Firebirds that came out before they switched to the Champ label(just like 11x teebirds and cany gazelles, etc).

that would be my guess.
I just lost my orange Candy Pro Firebird and I had 4 of them in my life so i konw that that stamp and 1 like it can be the old CE/CANDY PRO plastic. they either said proline firebird or kc pro firebird if i remember correctly.

-Scott Lewis

I recently ran into the same issue with a couple firebirds. The "Small F" discs are typically the pro/champion/candy discs while the "Large F" discs are the true Pro plastic(opaque). I though this was the rule but I recently aquired a "Small F" disc that is in the Opaque plastic and appears to be true Pro plastic. I have since encountered two others like this. I asked this question about a month ago and was told that when the Pro plastic FBird was first being produced that a small group was run using the original stamp from the Pro/Champ FBirds. I had asked the question to Dave at Innova(I believe in December) and he replied that he believed it was from the first run of the Pro plastic FBirds.

See attached pictures:
Pro/Champ (Somewhat translucent): http://sports.webshots.com/photo/2421282530102936052sDVzaO

True Pro? (Opaque): http://sports.webshots.com/photo/2394095640102936052YPwusG

That white one looks like one of the newer pros for sure.

your making me miss my orange Pro Firebird that i just lost in a pile of leaves :(.

http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/4657/dscf0100kc3.th.jpg (http://img208.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dscf0100kc3.jpg)

-Scott Lewis

My first ace was with one of those - I retired it immediatly, but now I might crack it out to throw again. This thread has got me all nostalgic.

I'm a big fan of these also, I have 12 or 13 and am always looking for more. These things are so consistent: Sidearm, Forehand Rollers, Thumbers,...

Here's a few pics of some I have:

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1057/852645156_b0900299d7.jpg?v=0
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2052/2185781569_4204aabf7c.jpg?v=0
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2165/2186567008_a82636f2ff.jpg?v=0
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1075/851784571_c3b316e72d.jpg?v=0

The dyed Pro Firebird in question is from the new runs of Pro Firebird, which uses the FL mold and is not the FX mold from the transitional Pro/Champion era. I know because this disc is listed from my website. There were some of these that were dyed and came in with the older hotstamp on them...strange but true.

Innova Dyed Pro Firebird (FL) 174g (http://www.sunkingdiscs.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=951)

The bigger deal is that the new Pro FL's always seem to have this weird concave rim, noticeably different than the traditional FL mold and definitely not an FX (no lip/bead on the outside edge). I posted this question to Dave D some time ago, so I'm just guessing it's a molding aberration having more to do with how the plastic sets up and cools.

Also, Dave D, I was researching info on the DX Starfires and the question was asked what mold it'll use, the L or X? Never saw an answer so I figured I'd ask again....thanks

hi dave- how did the dx destroyers come out stability-wise [when new] relative to the star, pro, and champ in equal wieghts? thx--steven

What year did the rancho roc come out?

97! (?)
Probably 98 over here..... :confused:

Also, Dave D, I was researching info on the DX Starfires and the question was asked what mold it'll use, the L or X? Never saw an answer so I figured I'd ask again....thanks



DX Starfire is the regular Starfire mold which is an X type.

hi dave- how did the dx destroyers come out stability-wise [when new] relative to the star, pro, and champ in equal wieghts? thx--steven



There is going to be some variation in DX, but the ones I have thrown so far are closer to Star, than Pro or Champ. I would liken it to a TeeRex or fairly stable Wraith for stability. I have only thrown mid sixties so far, and have not tried a max weight as yet. For me, the most stable Destroyers have been Pro and Champion. The longest flyer is definitely the DX, but that may be due to lower weight and slightly less stability.

Is that a Transformer?

Hey Dave whats up with Fieldberg not having a disc yet he's won three Majors? I see you gave the Distance world record holder one. What about Dave. Best active player next to Kenny

He has a custom Team Star Disc

Hey Dave whats up with Fieldberg not having a disc yet he's won three Majors? I see you gave the Distance world record holder one. What about Dave. Best active player next to Kenny




Thats a matter of opinion.

If Feldburg gets a true signature disc before Des Ill burn ALL my Innova plastic.

Is that a Transformer?



More or less. A Gundam Robot anime base.

I was thinking of something entirely different (Shiva), but this is what our art guy came up with and it looked okay to me.

You watch Gundam, Dave? You went 10 points up on the cool meter!

Also, Dave D, I was researching info on the DX Starfires and the question was asked what mold it'll use, the L or X? Never saw an answer so I figured I'd ask again....thanks



DX Starfire is the regular Starfire mold which is an X type.



Have you tested SL in DX-plastic?

Also, Dave D, I was researching info on the DX Starfires and the question was asked what mold it'll use, the L or X? Never saw an answer so I figured I'd ask again....thanks



DX Starfire is the regular Starfire mold which is an X type.



Have you tested SL in DX-plastic?



No. Not in the plans right now.

If Feldburg gets a true signature disc before Des Ill burn ALL my Innova plastic.

That may not be the best idea (http://govpe.ca/infopei/index.php3?number=60944)

Hello Dave

Are you Innova guys going or plan to make a Star Gazelle?



At some point in time, we will make a small run of Star Gazelles for tournament fundraising. Not sure when that will happen.



I did a quick survey and found that Star Gazelles closely followed by Star Banshees were the single most popular choice for players wanting to be apart of the TFR program!
I'll be running some fundraiser tournaments for our local A tier this summer and would love to have both of these available!

Hello Dave

Are you Innova guys going or plan to make a Star Gazelle?



I

At some point in time, we will make a small run of Star Gazelles for tournament fundraising. Not sure when that will happen.



I did a quick survey and found that Star Gazelles closely followed by Star Banshees were the single most popular choice for players wanting to be apart of the TFR program!
I'll be running some fundraiser tournaments for our local A tier this summer and would love to have both of these available!



I'm down!!!!!! I would buy either disc, but that might get the gazelle back in the bag. Just can't replace old school 9x and 10x pros when they get lost. ;)

I'm thinking that would end my, so far, fruitless search for 150g KC ProBanshee's and 150g EXP1's..... :cool::cool::cool:

Dave,

Congratulations on the Destroyer being a huge success! I was wondering since it's so popular if we'd see more discs like it? And more specifically do you expect to make more (and less stable) discs with the 2.2 cm rim thickness?

Thanks,

Jerry
DiscGolfCenter.com



We already tried to make a less stable configuration. It flew basically the same as the original, so we didn't market it. We may try a less stable DX version in the future, but we have already come out with DX, which will, with use, turn out to be less stable and easier to throw for intermediate level players. Also, it comes in lighter weights. The only other disc in 2.2, that we might make this year would be a slightly more high speed stable version of the Destroyer.

Slightly more high speed stable? Name game...

Demolisher?
Vanquisher?
Gladiator?
Dominator?
Regin?

but by the sounds of it, it will just be called a Destroyer - X

regin - reign, sorry


Epyon?
http://www.freewebs.com/gundamword/ozthumb1_lg_epyon.jpg

The only other disc in 2.2, that we might make this year would be a slightly more high speed stable version of the Destroyer.


This is what I'm waiting for. Something with the stability of a Max and the speed of a Wraith. And just for fun let's get them in Champion plastic for the masses first(not CFR).

Rich--i throw all innova, save the flick. for me, they are overstable and as fast as the destroyer, like your max/wraith combo disc you want

The only other disc in 2.2, that we might make this year would be a slightly more high speed stable version of the Destroyer.

And just for fun let's get them in Champion plastic for the masses first(not CFR).



Why not CFR(TFR)?

Support your **** Tournament Directors and events...buy CFR(TFR)!

You might as well say...well since I don't like paying 25 bucks a disc...

How about you just leave all of those that could actually use the interest in a new mold to support a tournament have access to them first?

Or just think of yourself... :o

I don't like paying $25 for a disc!

How's that, Opie? :o

Rich--i throw all innova, save the flick. for me, they are overstable and as fast as the destroyer, like your max/wraith combo disc you want


I am a huge Flick fan. I always carry 3. They just aren't as long (by about 50') as Destroyers or Wraiths.

And concerning the CFR thing. Many of us that have been around disc golf for a while have donated money, time and effort to make this sport better ( I once dyed 40 discs for a tournament to increase the value of the payout and sales. I was also the TD). But when a disc comes out as CFR only some players just won't get their hands on them. Sometimes because of location. Sometimes because of the initial price. Sometimes because the resellers swoop in and do a little hoarding which drives the price up with the bulk of the profit going to the EBAY seller not the tournament. Innova can do whatever they'd like. I'll just be happy if they make this disc. It would just be nice if a disc I wanted was widely released and available to everyone for a change.

I would like to volunteer to Beta Test such a disc. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

I like the flick also, i have a super flat one that goes a mile with a thumber... But i cant throw it very far bh or fh... I measured the rim and it was the same as the destroyer. What i am waiting for is a very wide rimmed disc that is sleek like a flick, has a thick edge like a star whippet or firebird. I think it would be the ultimate overhand/ fh roller disc. Or just a sleeker wider rimmed firebird.

I like the flick also, i have a super flat one that goes a mile with a thumber... But i cant throw it very far bh or fh... I measured the rim and it was the same as the destroyer.



Pretty rough measurement...The Flick is based on the Crush mold and has the same rim width as the Crush. A more careful measurement would show at least a 2 mm difference in the wing width of the Flick compared to a Destroyer, and thats a significant difference.

i found the flick's rim width to be wider than a crush and narrower than the destroyer.

i found the flick's rim width to be wider than a crush and narrower than the destroyer.


This is interesting since a Flick says CRUSH on the inside of the rim.

i found the flick's rim width to be wider than a crush and narrower than the destroyer.


This is interesting since a Flick says CRUSH on the inside of the rim.




The flicks I have in my store say FLICK on the inside of the rim.
But they are very close to the same size, if not the same size rim.

Find an old flick. it has Crush, just like the old buzzz.

Back to innova.

Are the new San Marino Rocs going to be stiffies like the old ones?

And do you need someone to help test them? :D

Dave,

The new mold Star Teerex is seriously kick butt. It really flies like a longer Teebird now. Long as heck, but flights the wind very nicely just like the Teebird but not too crazy overstable.

Well done!!!

Find an old flick. it has Crush, just like the old buzzz.

Back to innova.

Are the new San Marino Rocs going to be stiffies like the old ones?



An old Flick might be the 2.0 version but the 2.5 is way different. I compare the Flicke 2.5 to the Champion Monsters X mold. They were flat big rim and overstable, I loved those but they went to an L mold and then there was a Flick, so I still have a Flick n the bag, my only Discraft Disc, Dave why is there not a x mold monster out there anywhere??

Dave, I recently was playing a round in about 35 degree weather and I had a disc break. It was a super Roc. It hit a tree about 20 feet in front of me not super fast and cracked almost in half. i was just wondering why, because i haven't had a disc break in such warm weather. Also it wasnt very worn or anything like that.

Dave why is there not a x mold monster out there anywhere??



The newer runs of Champion Monsters have been X type.

Dave, I recently was playing a round in about 35 degree weather and I had a disc break. It was a super Roc. It hit a tree about 20 feet in front of me not super fast and cracked almost in half. i was just wondering why, because i haven't had a disc break in such warm weather. Also it wasnt very worn or anything like that.



35 degrees is way cold for here in SoCal :). I don't know. It could be the plastic type at that temperature or some internal defect in the disc that was hit just right at the right temperature and angle. Relatively small rimmed discs, like the Roc, are more vulnerable to rim breaks than larger rimmed discs. The Stingray is probably the most vulnerable to rim cracks.

Dave,

Has the big bead aviar ever been available at 150g?

I've got tons: 4x JK, 10x KC, Champion, and DX.

Dave, a RAM-question, I saw these on ebay, what is the difference between the original and the retooling:
http://cgi.ebay.com/COLLECTOR-RARE-ORIGI...1QQcmdZViewItem (http://cgi.ebay.com/COLLECTOR-RARE-ORIGINAL-MOLD-RAM-GOLF-DISC-FAST-SHIP_W0QQitemZ330210513331QQihZ014QQcategoryZ20851 QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)
http://cgi.ebay.com/COLLECTOR-RARE-RETOO...1QQcmdZViewItem (http://cgi.ebay.com/COLLECTOR-RARE-RETOOLED-RAM-GOLF-DISC-FAST-SHIP_W0QQitemZ330210514206QQihZ014QQcategoryZ20851 QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)

Dave, a RAM-question, I saw these on ebay, what is the difference between the original and the retooling:
http://cgi.ebay.com/COLLECTOR-RARE-ORIGI...1QQcmdZViewItem (http://cgi.ebay.com/COLLECTOR-RARE-ORIGINAL-MOLD-RAM-GOLF-DISC-FAST-SHIP_W0QQitemZ330210513331QQihZ014QQcategoryZ20851 QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)
http://cgi.ebay.com/COLLECTOR-RARE-RETOO...1QQcmdZViewItem (http://cgi.ebay.com/COLLECTOR-RARE-RETOOLED-RAM-GOLF-DISC-FAST-SHIP_W0QQitemZ330210514206QQihZ014QQcategoryZ20851 QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)



The retooled Ram has a slightly beefier rim. The beveled portion of the rim is flatter and less concave. It made it a slightly longer flying lawn dart.

Hey Dave whats up with Fieldberg not having a disc yet he's won three Majors? I see you gave the Distance world record holder one. What about Dave. Best active player next to Kenny

World Champions get a Signature Disc.

Hey Dave whats up with Fieldberg not having a disc yet he's won three Majors? I see you gave the Distance world record holder one. What about Dave. Best active player next to Kenny

World Champions get a Signature Disc.



Cool ... so ... what you're saying is ... I still have a chance ... right? ;) /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif :p :D

It's amazing how many world titles Greenwell has and yet he still doesn't have a signature disc. :confused:

Dave, a couple (or a dozen) of pages back, you mentioned attempting a new rhyno mold, sans bead. At least that is how I remember it. Progress? Pro Soft Plastic? Availability?
KP

Dave, a couple (or a dozen) of pages back, you mentioned attempting a new rhyno mold, sans bead. At least that is how I remember it. Progress? Pro Soft Plastic? Availability?
KP



There was a similar disc already made, called the Tank. It was a small bead. We could make a no bead Rhyno, but we have not made any decision to do so as yet.

Dave,

In Star plastic how do you tell the difference between an old mold TRX and the new one when you go to buy one?

Dave, a couple (or a dozen) of pages back, you mentioned attempting a new rhyno mold, sans bead. At least that is how I remember it. Progress? Pro Soft Plastic? Availability?
KP



discgolfvalues has a couple beadless rhynos on ebay right now. I just traded the one I had.

Dave,

In Star plastic how do you tell the difference between an old mold TRX and the new one when you go to buy one?



A Teerex or a Teerex -X
TRX is a Teerex-X. Star Teerex's have STR on the bottom and DX's just have TR. Which one are you talking about?

Dave,

In Star plastic how do you tell the difference between an old mold TRX and the new one when you go to buy one?



The TRX had a larger concavity on the bevel. The new one looks like the original, but it has more high speed stability.

Dave,

In Star plastic how do you tell the difference between an old mold TRX and the new one when you go to buy one?



The TRX had a larger concavity on the bevel. The new one looks like the original, but it has more high speed stability. There are no more TRXs being made. Just TRs.

I am throwing the standard TR in Star.

Is there any way to tell the old star Teerex from the new Teerex? Not the Teerex X.

I am throwing the standard TR in Star.

Is there any way to tell the old star Teerex from the new Teerex? Not the Teerex X.



I don't think so. Molding variations will make more discernible differences than the actual difference in the mold.

I am throwing the standard TR in Star.

Is there any way to tell the old star Teerex from the new Teerex? Not the Teerex X.



I don't think so. Molding variations will make more discernible differences than the actual difference in the mold.



Since the first few runs, you did blunt the nose on the regular Teerex, right?

I am throwing the standard TR in Star.

Is there any way to tell the old star Teerex from the new Teerex? Not the Teerex X.



I don't think so. Molding variations will make more discernible differences than the actual difference in the mold.



Since the first few runs, you did blunt the nose on the regular Teerex, right?



Yes, but it stayed that way after that, even with some of the other mods. There were good and not so good in both nose types. That is at least a way to differentiate originals from modifications.

Well, whatever you did, I know the latest TR with the blunted nose is awesome. Just the right amount of stability without being a pig (kind of like a Teebird).

Dave,

Will there be champion destroyers in the 150 weight?


Thanks

Dave,

Will there be champion destroyers in the 150 weight?


Thanks



No. Champion only consistently goes down to around 168 gms. We can get some lower, but they are rarer and mostly X-parts.

Thanks Dave :)

Dave,

Will there be champion destroyers in the 150 weight?


Thanks



No. Champion only consistently goes down to around 168 gms. We can get some lower, but they are rarer and mostly X-parts.



I have one that is 166 but the inside of the rim has an indention where the plastic didn't fill out the mold all the way before cooling. Would this have been a X-Out if it was noticed during inspection?

Always wondered why I can't find anymore that weight. Guess I'll have to start looking for X-Outs.

No. Champion only consistently goes down to around 168 gms. We can get some lower, but they are rarer and mostly X-parts.



I have one that is 166 but the inside of the rim has an indention where the plastic didn't fill out the mold all the way before cooling. Would this have been a X-Out if it was noticed during inspection?


[/QUOTE]

Yes, that should have been an X-out, or possibly a reject depending.

No. Champion only consistently goes down to around 168 gms. We can get some lower, but they are rarer and mostly X-parts.



I have one that is 166 but the inside of the rim has an indention where the plastic didn't fill out the mold all the way before cooling. Would this have been a X-Out if it was noticed during inspection?




Yes, that should have been an X-out, or possibly a reject depending.

[/QUOTE]

What would make it a reject?

No. Champion only consistently goes down to around 168 gms. We can get some lower, but they are rarer and mostly X-parts.



I have one that is 166 but the inside of the rim has an indention where the plastic didn't fill out the mold all the way before cooling. Would this have been a X-Out if it was noticed during inspection?




Yes, that should have been an X-out, or possibly a reject depending.



What would make it a reject?

[/QUOTE]

If the hollow was more than a very small amount, or if you could see light coming under the bottom of the rim when it is sitting on a flat surface, that would make it a reject. That would indicate the rim was not filled sufficiently. A slight sink on the inside wall of the rim is not harmful, as long as it is uniform.

Dave, I'm sure this has been asked before, but is an Innova X-out disc legal for PDGA tournament play? I had always thought so, but another player mentioned something different to me yesterday...

I looked through the PDGA rules, and saw nothing definitive on this subject. Thanks for any insight you can provide.

-E

Hey Dave-
Question about Star Destroyers. Do you know if Climo, Avery, and the rest of the top innova players have added a destroyer to their bags. I am curious if alot of the innova team is adding these discs to thir bags. I actually just starting throwing them and I think they are an excellent compliment to the wraith. thanks and happy huking.
dave

Hey Dave
I have another question about Feldberg's putt. How can he putt from so far away and what grip does he use? I am not sure if you know, but I am curious so I thought I would ask.
Thanks again
dave

Hey Dave- i have a ? about dx destroyers. i just got a stack of 150's. i have not had a chance to throw them yet. was the very slight texture on the top of the wing intentional? it is not on the top of the dome, just the wing. also-is this a new or different blend of dx? they are much less tacky than my dx wraiths and teerex's. thx again

Probably a low density dx plastic, to fill the larger volume mold

Hey Dave- i have a ? about dx destroyers. i just got a stack of 150's. i have not had a chance to throw them yet. was the very slight texture on the top of the wing intentional? it is not on the top of the dome, just the wing. also-is this a new or different blend of dx? they are much less tacky than my dx wraiths and teerex's. thx again




That surface texture is probably meant to provide more lift/glide.

Hey Dave- i have a ? about dx destroyers. i just got a stack of 150's. i have not had a chance to throw them yet. was the very slight texture on the top of the wing intentional? it is not on the top of the dome, just the wing. also-is this a new or different blend of dx? they are much less tacky than my dx wraiths and teerex's. thx again



It's an evolving blend of DX similar to the Wraith's DX, but slightly different. The texturing is an artifact of the material and injection process called a flow signiture.

How about some lightweight (160's) glow CFR destroyers?

scoot- texture on top of the wing will not provide any more glide, but will give more speed. the textures [in your man's case, dimples] on the underside of the wing possibly could provide more glide. i have thrown gateway discs with and without the dimples, and i cannot tell a difference. in the case of the dx destroyers, and some of my dx teebirds as well, the very slight texture on top of the wing was not intentional, as per dave above. these factors solidify my belief that the cheaper plastics fly better, straighter, and with more glide, especially after they get a little more "texture", ie seasoned. I remember Dave Mccormick saying this about matted, or cheaper plastic discs as well.

Dave, I'm sure this has been asked before, but is an Innova X-out disc legal for PDGA tournament play? I had always thought so, but another



Look at the Rules Q&A under the article on Remaindered discs.
(The answer is yes, they are legal)

Dave, what's in your bag right now?

Dave, what's in your bag right now?



Right now: 2 Star Destroyers 168, 175, 1 DX Destroyer 175, 1 Star Wraith 164, 1 Champ Wraith 165, 1 Max Champ Coyote, 1 Max Star Ont Roc, 1 175 Champ Viking, 1 Max Star RR, 1 Max Star Cro, 2 Max P1.

Some will change for the Memorial. I will need a few more wind discs.

Hey Dave-
Question about Star Destroyers. Do you know if Climo, Avery, and the rest of the top innova players have added a destroyer to their bags. I am curious if alot of the innova team is adding these discs to thir bags. I actually just starting throwing them and I think they are an excellent compliment to the wraith. thanks and happy huking.
dave



Sorry, I missed your questions earlier. I don't know if any of them have added the Destroyer to their bags or not. I would be surprised if they didn't by now.

I saw Schultz throw a pro destroyer (i believe it was pro) at Z-boaz this weekend.

When where the discs with the greatest holes stamps produced?

Thank you

When where the discs with the greatest holes stamps produced?

Thank you



The "Greatest Holes" stamps were started several years ago by John Houck, of Austin Texas, and Millennium discs. He would be the one to ask for definitive answers.

The first set came out at the end of '93 the second about a year later.

Barry loves the destroyer,pro line is more stable into the wind, star is for distance and he 's still messing with the champion ones.

Barry loves the destroyer,pro line is more stable into the wind, star is for distance and he 's still messing with the champion ones.



As a matter of fast the pro was selected after he felt a headwind when he was about to throw a different disc.

From my experience pro is the most overstable, except the lighter weights... Star is the most stable even in 168... Champion is understable... And i just threw my dx's for the first time and they fly like the champion without as much low speed fade... I beat my farthest recorded throw today by 24ft with a DX Destroyer (166).

Hey Dave-
Question about Star Destroyers. Do you know if Climo, Avery, and the rest of the top innova players have added a destroyer to their bags. I am curious if alot of the innova team is adding these discs to thir bags. I actually just starting throwing them and I think they are an excellent compliment to the wraith. thanks and happy huking.
dave



Sorry, I missed your questions earlier. I don't know if any of them have added the Destroyer to their bags or not. I would be surprised if they didn't by now.



Climo's not into the Destroyer yet. He's often slow to change (look at his Rocs...). Besides that, he love's his 12-time star Wraiths. He told me that he thought that they are just about as fast and stable as the Destroyer and he likes the stiffer plastic.

Thanks for the insight on the destroyers question everyone. It is quite a disc, as is the wraith. I am curious about who throws what and how they use the new tech discs.

I played with Avery yesterday and he was fooling around with a destroyer... as a long turnover disc... but he's a man beast, so I guess that's how it goes.

p.s. he showed me one of his team star discs for '08 and they have a sweet stamp, well done Innova!

Dave,

When will the website be updated with February CFR entry form winners? I thought this happened at the beginning of the month, no??

Thanks

Hey Dave,
I understand that you are not exactly a retailer, but given the fact that there are no plans to make a beadless Rhyno, do you have any idea if/where there are Tanks available. I saw some 150's on ebay, but I would like heavier. Central Va ain't exactly full of disc stores. Thanks. KP

no more discs kp!

Dave,

When will the website be updated with February CFR entry form winners? I thought this happened at the beginning of the month, no??



The drawings are held on the last tuesday of the month. February's winners will be posted after that.

Thanks

Hey Dave,
I understand that you are not exactly a retailer, but given the fact that there are no plans to make a beadless Rhyno, do you have any idea if/where there are Tanks available. I saw some 150's on ebay, but I would like heavier. Central Va ain't exactly full of disc stores. Thanks. KP



We originally made those for Ching, but they have been out of production for several years now. Ching may possibly know a retailer that might have them. I have no clue. Sorry.

Hey Dave,
I understand that you are not exactly a retailer, but given the fact that there are no plans to make a beadless Rhyno, do you have any idea if/where there are Tanks available. I saw some 150's on ebay, but I would like heavier. Central Va ain't exactly full of disc stores. Thanks. KP



We have no current plans to run a beadless Rhyno, however, I have been asked by my partner (indirectly) to check out the feasibility of a beadless Rhyno. What he actually said was, "It sure would be nice if we had a straighter flying Rhyno". Next time we run, we will check it out. That may not happen for a while.

Dave whats up with the web page the team star info is out dated. And some ifo is missing is there an update in the near future?

Dave whats up with the web page the team star info is out dated. And some ifo is missing is there an update in the near future?



Every year at this time we update the team and team positions. Probably by some time next week it will be uploaded on the web site.

Dave,
i have come across some "domey" champion rhynos. it this a different mold you are trying? i like the regular flat champ rhynos.

Dave,
i have come across some "domey" champion rhynos. it this a different mold you are trying? i like the regular flat champ rhynos.



Same mold, just an unintended variation.

Hey dave im sure you have answered this before is it true that innova is going to becoming out with a more overstable destroyer this year?

Hey dave im sure you have answered this before is it true that innova is going to becoming out with a more overstable destroyer this year?



We are definitely going to be testing one. Testing will determine whether it is worth running or not.

Hey dave im sure you have answered this before is it true that innova is going to becoming out with a more overstable destroyer this year?



We are definitely going to be testing one. Testing will determine whether it is worth running or not.



Hey Dave
Do you need someone to test all the new discs out!! If so, I'm on the next plane!!! :D

Good luck on that one bro. I threw a 175 first run Tank for 5 years then spaced it at awards at a tourney 2 years ago, and searched relentlessly for heavy ones, but all that is around at least from message boards and talking with vendors around the country are light Tanks. I switched to Blue Pro Rhyno's because the flexibility was almost indentical to my old Tank and although only found one vendor in the country who had Blue ones.
Good luck.
Peace

Hi Dave,

Are the new San Marino Rocs still in the works? Any expected release date?

Hi Dave,

Are the new San Marino Rocs still in the works? Any expected release date?



We are molding them now. We will be doing final testing this weekend. If all goes well, we will run the USDGC batch next week, then finish the DX run. Again, if all goes well, the DX version should be available for custom hot stamps and tourneys by March.

Sweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet :cool:

dave
are there any plans for more of the gummmy star rhynos?
Thanks

Dave are the new san marinos going to be anything like the 1991 flat top rocs?

Dave has there ever been any talk of remaking a 84-88 style aviar with the rim shaped more like a football and not so square as the current version.

dave
are there any plans for more of the gummmy star rhynos?
Thanks



Yes, when we can.

Dave are the new san marinos going to be anything like the 1991 flat top rocs?



The mold will be identical. The discs coming out of the mold will depend on material and molding parameters. Those flat top Rocs did not come out of a flat mold. The flattest Roc mold we have is the Rancho.

Dave has there ever been any talk of remaking a 84-88 style aviar with the rim shaped more like a football and not so square as the current version.



The Aviar putter mold is the original. Only the driver mold is more square. The driver mold produces KC and JK Aviars, among others.

Dave,

I have 2 bright orange, max weigh Star Destroyers. The plastic is somewhat soft and grippy, but it is also quite trasparent (you could drive home at night looking through the disc). Might there be gummy champion in the mix(they have been more abrasion resistant that most star)? Or is there just less pigment? They seem to be straighter fliers with a later fade than the other Destroyers I've thrown, sort of Teebirdish in their flight path.

Dave,

I have 2 bright orange, max weigh Star Destroyers. The plastic is somewhat soft and grippy, but it is also quite trasparent (you could drive home at night looking through the disc). Might there be gummy champion in the mix(they have been more abrasion resistant that most star)? Or is there just less pigment? They seem to be straighter fliers with a later fade than the other Destroyers I've thrown, sort of Teebirdish in their flight path.



You're describing my favorite Destroyer. There is some gummy in the mix and probably the molders used the wrong pigment or left a pigment element out of the mix.

Dave,

I have 2 bright orange, max weigh Star Destroyers. The plastic is somewhat soft and grippy, but it is also quite trasparent (you could drive home at night looking through the disc). Might there be gummy champion in the mix(they have been more abrasion resistant that most star)? Or is there just less pigment? They seem to be straighter fliers with a later fade than the other Destroyers I've thrown, sort of Teebirdish in their flight path.



You're describing my favorite Destroyer. There is some gummy in the mix and probably the molders used the wrong pigment or left a pigment element out of the mix.



My favorite too! Thanks Dave.

Gummy middle and stiff rim I have found that the max weight destroyers have the best of both worlds. Great work Dave

Dave,

I have 2 bright orange, max weigh Star Destroyers. The plastic is somewhat soft and grippy, but it is also quite trasparent (you could drive home at night looking through the disc). Might there be gummy champion in the mix(they have been more abrasion resistant that most star)? Or is there just less pigment? They seem to be straighter fliers with a later fade than the other Destroyers I've thrown, sort of Teebirdish in their flight path.



You're describing my favorite Destroyer. There is some gummy in the mix and probably the molders used the wrong pigment or left a pigment element out of the mix.



My favorite too! Thanks Dave.



Gummy!!!!!! More votes here for gummy!!!!! You could put out a whole line of gummy discs - the artwork could be the same as the DX art, just no teeth on the characters. The gummy Wolf artwork would be priceless!

[ What did Junior put in my coffee this morning...? ]

Me too!!!! Just barely this side of liquid is best.

Hey Dave,

I was just going through a box of Wolfs (Wolves?) that we are giving away to our Ice Bowl participants on Sunday, and one white Wolf stuck out. The plastic is a more milky white and feels like Pro plastic. Is it possible there are some rogue Wolfs out there that were run in Pro?

Hey Dave,

I was just going through a box of Wolfs (Wolves?) that we are giving away to our Ice Bowl participants on Sunday, and one white Wolf stuck out. The plastic is a more milky white and feels like Pro plastic. Is it possible there are some rogue Wolfs out there that were run in Pro?



It is possible. Those were run a couple of years ago but were too stable. We never released them.

Hey Dave,

I was just going through a box of Wolfs (Wolves?) that we are giving away to our Ice Bowl participants on Sunday, and one white Wolf stuck out. The plastic is a more milky white and feels like Pro plastic. Is it possible there are some rogue Wolfs out there that were run in Pro?


Some of the newer DX plastic is very Pro-like. Some of the mid-weight (168-172g) DX Destroyers & Starfires I just received are almost indistinguishable from their Pro counterparts.

Dave,
Thank you very sincerely for a.) taking time to answer questions on this forum b.) making one heckuva fine product
My lineup of drivers is almost entirely Innova, and I only putt with Innova Products.
Again, a hearty thank you for both
KP

Mr. Dave,
Do you think that the Ontario Roc, and the new San Marino Roc, will ever be available for normal retail sale without a custom hotstamp?
Thanks!

Hi Dave,

I live and play in the Rocky Mountain West. I play almost exclusively on alpine/wildland/outlaw courses (why would you play anywhere else?) which involve high altitude (7000 - 11,000 feet) and extremely long (1000+ ft) downhill (or off cliffs) drives. If you were to a design a driver specific to this kind of play would it resemble any of the current drivers in the Innova line or would there be subtle (or not so subtle) differences?
Given my rudimentary knowledge of physics and personal observations I've concluded that because of the thin air you want an understable disc, with TONS of glide, in lighter weights.Is this correct?
On the ultra long down shots I typically use Sidewinders and Roadrunners (I would use the RR more often but it isn't made as light as the SS; c'mon brother send us mountain folks a little love, 150 RRs!) in as light of weight as I can find. Any other suggestions?
Thanks for your time and all you do for the sport!
Tim

Timothy Severns
Wild Hare Expeditions
The Backcountry Specialists
P.O. Box 750194
Torrey, UT 84775
435-425-3999
www.wildhareexpeditions.com (http://www.wildhareexpeditions.com)

Hi Dave,

I live and play in the Rocky Mountain West. I play almost exclusively on alpine/wildland/outlaw courses (why would you play anywhere else?) which involve high altitude (7000 - 11,000 feet) and extremely long (1000+ ft) downhill (or off cliffs) drives. If you were to a design a driver specific to this kind of play would it resemble any of the current drivers in the Innova line or would there be subtle (or not so subtle) differences?
Given my rudimentary knowledge of physics and personal observations I've concluded that because of the thin air you want an understable disc, with TONS of glide, in lighter weights.Is this correct?
On the ultra long down shots I typically use Sidewinders and Roadrunners (I would use the RR more often but it isn't made as light as the SS; c'mon brother send us mountain folks a little love, 150 RRs!) in as light of weight as I can find. Any other suggestions?
Thanks for your time and all you do for the sport!
Tim

Timothy Severns
Wild Hare Expeditions
The Backcountry Specialists
P.O. Box 750194
Torrey, UT 84775
435-425-3999
www.wildhareexpeditions.com (http://www.wildhareexpeditions.com)



Most big down hill ski slope holes require a very long but very controlled tee shot. Light and understable discs may go a lot farther down a hill than a stable disc, but can also be a lot less predictable. Down ski slopes I prefer to throw Teebirds, TLs, or Rocs. The Starfire-x is also a great disc for big downhill shots. Generally a slower stable driver is the most predictable disc. On big Mountains predictabiltity and consistency usually win.

At Kiss The Sky and other high altitude courses here in Colorado, I usually throw a Roc downhill since it has such great glide, will fly stright for a long time and won't hyzer out much. Usually goes farther with more accuracy than a driver. You need the 150 g understable discs for the UPhill shots!

my $0.02

-MADMAX
#21776

Dave, I am a HUGE fan of the Cro. I throw mostly forehand, and in my opinion, there is no other mid-range disc out there that is a good forehand disc. I would like to know if there will ever be a Champion Cro. I think it would take the disc one step further as an overstable forehand mid=range.

Mr. Dave,
Do you think that the Ontario Roc, and the new San Marino Roc, will ever be available for normal retail sale without a custom hotstamp?
Thanks!



Custom hotstamp means pro shops can get them. We just don't intend to market more than one Roc in sporting goods stores.

Hi Dave,

I live and play in the Rocky Mountain West. I play almost exclusively on alpine/wildland/outlaw courses (why would you play anywhere else?) which involve high altitude (7000 - 11,000 feet) and extremely long (1000+ ft) downhill (or off cliffs) drives. If you were to a design a driver specific to this kind of play would it resemble any of the current drivers in the Innova line or would there be subtle (or not so subtle) differences?
Given my rudimentary knowledge of physics and personal observations I've concluded that because of the thin air you want an understable disc, with TONS of glide, in lighter weights.Is this correct?
On the ultra long down shots I typically use Sidewinders and Roadrunners (I would use the RR more often but it isn't made as light as the SS; c'mon brother send us mountain folks a little love, 150 RRs!) in as light of weight as I can find. Any other suggestions?
Thanks for your time and all you do for the sport!
Tim

Timothy Severns
Wild Hare Expeditions
The Backcountry Specialists
P.O. Box 750194
Torrey, UT 84775
435-425-3999
www.wildhareexpeditions.com (http://www.wildhareexpeditions.com)



I play at altitude too, 7250 ft, on a regular basis. I rarely use a driver for long downhill shots. No driver can hold a line like a heavy mid range or heavy putter. If the declination angle is high enough, a putter can go 1000 ft. More importantly, it can go 1000 ft straight. For side hill or uphill, use of a lightweight (165 gm) driver like a Roadrunner makes for an easy transition from sea level to altitude. I am used to the altitude and sea level so I use the same discs for either. I just club down so that I can throw relatively hard and avoid finesse shots that don't work well at altitude.

Dave, I am a HUGE fan of the Cro. I throw mostly forehand, and in my opinion, there is no other mid-range disc out there that is a good forehand disc. I would like to know if there will ever be a Champion Cro. I think it would take the disc one step further as an overstable forehand mid=range.



We will run Champion Cro's, at least for test marketing, at some point.

What's the latest on the new San Marino Roc? Are they out? Will they be available for "smaller" tournaments, or just the big ones? rWc3523

Hi Dave,

I live and play in the Rocky Mountain West. I play almost exclusively on alpine/wildland/outlaw courses (why would you play anywhere else?) which involve high altitude (7000 - 11,000 feet) and extremely long (1000+ ft) downhill (or off cliffs) drives. If you were to a design a driver specific to this kind of play would it resemble any of the current drivers in the Innova line or would there be subtle (or not so subtle) differences?
Given my rudimentary knowledge of physics and personal observations I've concluded that because of the thin air you want an understable disc, with TONS of glide, in lighter weights.Is this correct?
On the ultra long down shots I typically use Sidewinders and Roadrunners (I would use the RR more often but it isn't made as light as the SS; c'mon brother send us mountain folks a little love, 150 RRs!) in as light of weight as I can find. Any other suggestions?
Thanks for your time and all you do for the sport!
Tim

Timothy Severns
Wild Hare Expeditions
The Backcountry Specialists
P.O. Box 750194
Torrey, UT 84775
435-425-3999
www.wildhareexpeditions.com (http://www.wildhareexpeditions.com)



I play at altitude too, 7250 ft, on a regular basis. I rarely use a driver for long downhill shots. No driver can hold a line like a heavy mid range or heavy putter. If the declination angle is high enough, a putter can go 1000 ft. More importantly, it can go 1000 ft straight. For side hill or uphill, use of a lightweight (165 gm) driver like a Roadrunner makes for an easy transition from sea level to altitude. I am used to the altitude and sea level so I use the same discs for either. I just club down so that I can throw relatively hard and avoid finesse shots that don't work well at altitude.



Definitely agree on the middies for downhill. On the TdR this past summer we played a lot of high altitude golf while driving cross-country. I got my hands on a 143g Leopard-X that flew super straight at altitude and had mega-glide. I would definitely agree that flat and uphill shots at altitude call for lighter plastic.

What's the latest on the new San Marino Roc? Are they out? Will they be available for "smaller" tournaments, or just the big ones? rWc3523



The DX San Marinos should be available by March 1 for custom hotstamping. Any tourney can get them. The initial number available to each site will be limited until we have enough to go around.

Thanks Dave! I can't wait. I hope they break in like the old ones! rWc3523

Dave, I am a HUGE fan of the Cro. I throw mostly forehand, and in my opinion, there is no other mid-range disc out there that is a good forehand disc. I would like to know if there will ever be a Champion Cro. I think it would take the disc one step further as an overstable forehand mid=range.



We will run Champion Cro's, at least for test marketing, at some point.




Awesome! Thanks for taking the time to answer my question! I will look forward to a Champion Cro in the future!

2 Thumbs up for the Champion Cro Dave!!

2 Thumbs up for the Champion Cro Dave!!



Agreed. The Cro is a great flyer. I recently asked what a beadless Roc might fly like and whether this is it or not, this is what I had in mind.

2 Thumbs up for the Champion Cro Dave!!



Agreed. The Cro is a great flyer. I recently asked what a beadless Roc might fly like and whether this is it or not, this is what I had in mind.



I suppose the Cro would be similar to a beadless Roc. But, being a smaller diameter, it is a faster and less floaty disc. As it turns out, we are currently running Star Cros and are scheduled to follow with Champion.

Hi Dave,

I live and play in the Rocky Mountain West. I play almost exclusively on alpine/wildland/outlaw courses (why would you play anywhere else?) which involve high altitude (7000 - 11,000 feet) and extremely long (1000+ ft) downhill (or off cliffs) drives. If you were to a design a driver specific to this kind of play would it resemble any of the current drivers in the Innova line or would there be subtle (or not so subtle) differences?
Given my rudimentary knowledge of physics and personal observations I've concluded that because of the thin air you want an understable disc, with TONS of glide, in lighter weights.Is this correct?
On the ultra long down shots I typically use Sidewinders and Roadrunners (I would use the RR more often but it isn't made as light as the SS; c'mon brother send us mountain folks a little love, 150 RRs!) in as light of weight as I can find. Any other suggestions?
Thanks for your time and all you do for the sport!
Tim

Timothy Severns
Wild Hare Expeditions
The Backcountry Specialists
P.O. Box 750194
Torrey, UT 84775
435-425-3999
www.wildhareexpeditions.com (http://www.wildhareexpeditions.com)



I play at altitude too, 7250 ft, on a regular basis. I rarely use a driver for long downhill shots. No driver can hold a line like a heavy mid range or heavy putter. If the declination angle is high enough, a putter can go 1000 ft. More importantly, it can go 1000 ft straight. For side hill or uphill, use of a lightweight (165 gm) driver like a Roadrunner makes for an easy transition from sea level to altitude. I am used to the altitude and sea level so I use the same discs for either. I just club down so that I can throw relatively hard and avoid finesse shots that don't work well at altitude.



Definitely agree on the middies for downhill. On the TdR this past summer we played a lot of high altitude golf while driving cross-country. I got my hands on a 143g Leopard-X that flew super straight at altitude and had mega-glide. I would definitely agree that flat and uphill shots at altitude call for lighter plastic.



With the number of courses going in at altitude, have you considered an altitide specific disc/mold???$$$

2 Thumbs up for the Champion Cro Dave!!



Agreed. The Cro is a great flyer. I recently asked what a beadless Roc might fly like and whether this is it or not, this is what I had in mind.



I suppose the Cro would be similar to a beadless Roc. But, being a smaller diameter, it is a faster and less floaty disc. As it turns out, we are currently running Star Cros and are scheduled to follow with Champion.



Champion Cro ! Are we talkin CFR or in the "regular disc"?

Hi Dave,

I live and play in the Rocky Mountain West. I play almost exclusively on alpine/wildland/outlaw courses (why would you play anywhere else?) which involve high altitude (7000 - 11,000 feet) and extremely long (1000+ ft) downhill (or off cliffs) drives. If you were to a design a driver specific to this kind of play would it resemble any of the current drivers in the Innova line or would there be subtle (or not so subtle) differences?
Given my rudimentary knowledge of physics and personal observations I've concluded that because of the thin air you want an understable disc, with TONS of glide, in lighter weights.Is this correct?
On the ultra long down shots I typically use Sidewinders and Roadrunners (I would use the RR more often but it isn't made as light as the SS; c'mon brother send us mountain folks a little love, 150 RRs!) in as light of weight as I can find. Any other suggestions?
Thanks for your time and all you do for the sport!
Tim

Timothy Severns
Wild Hare Expeditions
The Backcountry Specialists
P.O. Box 750194
Torrey, UT 84775
435-425-3999
www.wildhareexpeditions.com (http://www.wildhareexpeditions.com)



I play at altitude too, 7250 ft, on a regular basis. I rarely use a driver for long downhill shots. No driver can hold a line like a heavy mid range or heavy putter. If the declination angle is high enough, a putter can go 1000 ft. More importantly, it can go 1000 ft straight. For side hill or uphill, use of a lightweight (165 gm) driver like a Roadrunner makes for an easy transition from sea level to altitude. I am used to the altitude and sea level so I use the same discs for either. I just club down so that I can throw relatively hard and avoid finesse shots that don't work well at altitude.



Definitely agree on the middies for downhill. On the TdR this past summer we played a lot of high altitude golf while driving cross-country. I got my hands on a 143g Leopard-X that flew super straight at altitude and had mega-glide. I would definitely agree that flat and uphill shots at altitude call for lighter plastic.



With the number of courses going in at altitude, have you considered an altitide specific disc/mold???$$$



No, haven't considered that yet. Most people just throw lighter weights and something beat up. It's an idea, though. Thanks.

2 Thumbs up for the Champion Cro Dave!!



Agreed. The Cro is a great flyer. I recently asked what a beadless Roc might fly like and whether this is it or not, this is what I had in mind.



I suppose the Cro would be similar to a beadless Roc. But, being a smaller diameter, it is a faster and less floaty disc. As it turns out, we are currently running Star Cros and are scheduled to follow with Champion.



Champion Cro ! Are we talkin CFR or in the "regular disc"?



Probably for custom hotstamping at first.

Dave,

When will the website be updated with February CFR entry form winners? I thought this happened at the beginning of the month, no??



The drawings are held on the last tuesday of the month. February's winners will be posted after that.

Thanks



Dave, I found some CFR-certificates from 2006 among my discs, can I send them in, are they still "valid"?

Dave,

When will the website be updated with February CFR entry form winners? I thought this happened at the beginning of the month, no??



The drawings are held on the last tuesday of the month. February's winners will be posted after that.

Thanks



Dave, I found some CFR-certificates from 2006 among my discs, can I send them in, are they still "valid"?



Sorry, I'm not sure. You should probably send them in anyway.

good to know... i actually found a couple myself from 06... i was just getting into DG and thought this was a cert. of authenticity or something and should be kept w/ the disc in the plastic... didnt actually read them to see that I could win prizes.

I'll prob. send my 2 out soon as well.

YEAH Champion CRO !!!!!!

Dave,
Will the TL ever be run in Champ plastic again? I haven't seen it used as a CFR in quite a few years.

Thanks.

What is the picture on the DX destroyer is it a transformer or something??

YEAH Champion CRO !!!!!!



is this what you threw on almost every drive @ the CPWO or was it star and you want them to make em in Champ?! I hadnt seen a champ cro yet if they make em.

Dave,
Will the TL ever be run in Champ plastic again? I haven't seen it used as a CFR in quite a few years.

Thanks.



Maybe. I think we still have Champion TLs.

What is the picture on the DX destroyer is it a transformer or something??



It is based on a Gundam figure. Where the transformers came from.

Dave,
Will the TL ever be run in Champ plastic again? I haven't seen it used as a CFR in quite a few years.

Thanks.



Maybe. I think we still have Champion TLs.



Glo Champ TL's have been on the CFR quite recently. I bought a Ford Park Founders disc from Redlands recently that is a TL. I think those were printed last summer.

can't wait for champion cro's. i got a champ gator and noticed it had a bead, unlike the star gator. does it make a big difference?

can't wait for champion cro's. i got a champ gator and noticed it had a bead, unlike the star gator. does it make a big difference?



Not much. The bead was originally put on Rocs to retard abrasion damage, not to make it more stable. A disc will stay more stable longer with a bead.

Spotsy Slam also has some sweet Glo Champion TLs:
http://www.tripledisc.com/preview/hho/TL.jpg
$20 apiece. PM if you're interested.

imo- the champ gators w/ the bead are a good bit more overstable than the beadless star, which also loose their overstability fairly quickly.

YEAH Champion CRO !!!!!!



is this what you threw on almost every drive @ the CPWO or was it star and you want them to make em in Champ?! I hadnt seen a champ cro yet if they make em.

I was throwing a Star Cro during CPWO, I am just looking forward to geTTing some Champ Cro's

Hey Dave,
Regarding playing at altutude, have you developed any personal rules of thumb for altitude's effect on distance (i.e. for every 1000 feet you gain roughly 10 feet on your drives) or stability (i.e. for every 1000 feet you slide over one "notch" on the stablity chart; from Roc to Shark) I realize that relative humidity, wind speed and barometeric pressure are all going to come into play but do you have any general insights or observations you are willing to share.
I know it's not exactly related to Innova, but you seem to be all knowing (or pretty sharp at the very least!).

Thanks,
Tim

Hey Dave,
Regarding playing at altutude, have you developed any personal rules of thumb for altitude's effect on distance (i.e. for every 1000 feet you gain roughly 10 feet on your drives) or stability (i.e. for every 1000 feet you slide over one "notch" on the stablity chart; from Roc to Shark) I realize that relative humidity, wind speed and barometeric pressure are all going to come into play but do you have any general insights or observations you are willing to share.
I know it's not exactly related to Innova, but you seem to be all knowing (or pretty sharp at the very least!).

Thanks,
Tim



There is no formula, but there certainly is an effect. Discs fly faster at altitude, but not necessarily farther. At the same time they have less lift at the same speed, (sea level and altitude). Higher speed can translate into more distance, but less lift can translate into less distance. The easiest way to compensate is to throw lower weight discs. Lower weight discs are less effective into the wind at lower altitude, but are fine at higher altitude. Heavy weight discs have enough lift at low altitude, but not at high altitude. Lightweight discs are fine at high altitude.

As for stability: As there is less air pressure, there is less air to turn a disc over. You can compensate by throwing slower discs faster or expect more high speed stability from drivers, which are most affected. At around 7000 ft altitude, I would expect a +1 for high speed stability.

Dave has there ever been any talk of remaking a 84-88 style aviar with the rim shaped more like a football and not so square as the current version.



The Aviar putter mold is the original. Only the driver mold is more square. The driver mold produces KC and JK Aviars, among others.



Hi Dave,

How about the older big-bead DX Aviars with the Grid stamp? Are those the same as the driver mold? I held one up next to a recent run KC Aviar and the nose doesnt look the same. Is it just me, or were the big-bead "Grid" Aviars a differnet mold than the current big-beads in production?

Thanks!

Dave has there ever been any talk of remaking a 84-88 style aviar with the rim shaped more like a football and not so square as the current version.



The Aviar putter mold is the original. Only the driver mold is more square. The driver mold produces KC and JK Aviars, among others.



Hi Dave,

How about the older big-bead DX Aviars with the Grid stamp? Are those the same as the driver mold? I held one up next to a recent run KC Aviar and the nose doesnt look the same. Is it just me, or were the big-bead "Grid" Aviars a differnet mold than the current big-beads in production?

Thanks!



Not just you. This was the original big bead configuration. Later in the life of the Big Bead, the top part of the mold got redone to have a snubbier nose as it has now, and became the driver mold. That original big bead configuration goes back to around 1986.

Thanks Dave!

A concise and simple answer. Perfect for explaining to my flat land/sea level customers, some who are experiencing the joys and agonies of playing at altitude for the first time.

How did you know the course in Torrey is at 7000 feet? Have you played it? If not and it was just a guess you are truly a bombin' bodhisattva!

Tim

Thanks Dave!

A concise and simple answer. Perfect for explaining to my flat land/sea level customers, some who are experiencing the joys and agonies of playing at altitude for the first time.

How did you know the course in Torrey is at 7000 feet? Have you played it? If not and it was just a guess you are truly a bombin' bodhisattva!

Tim



The 7000 ft was just the altitude I am familiar playing at here on my local course at Wrightwood, Ca. Just coincidental to yours.

There are too many people in the DFW area that are starting to throw Discraft plastic. How can we stop this from happening?

There are too many people in the DFW area that are starting to throw Discraft plastic. How can we stop this from happening?



Play better Brice and they will follow. :D Also not allowing McCabe into the city limit would probably help.

My buddy has an '07 Interstate 888 Champion Rancho Roc and it is really overstable compared to my '07 Twin Roc Champion Rancho. My question is of all the champ rocs which one is the most overstable?

they are all the same.

My buddy has an '07 Interstate 888 Champion Rancho Roc and it is really overstable compared to my '07 Twin Roc Champion Rancho. My question is of all the champ rocs which one is the most overstable?



The Rancho type as opposed to the Ontario type are more overstable. Ongoing testing with the San Marino Champion still indicates the Ranchos will be the most overstable. As for differentiating between Ranchos, I am not sure, but would lean toward whichever were the flattest. I believe, I have heard the 2001, but I really don't know.

Dave -

I found two light weight, pink, gummy champion x-out GAZELLES (yes, gazelles) at my local dealer (Play It Again Sports). What is the scoop - did you guys recently make a run of clear champion gazelles, or are these old?

Is there anything new happening on the CFR scene that I should be aware of? I have an event in June coming up and am starting to think about what to order. I hope I don't make the order before you run Champ Cro's!

Thanks,
Dion

I LOVE the Star Cro sooo much I had to make a little Cro dance whenever I pull an exceedingly good shot with it....:D

I LOVE the Star Cro sooo much I had to make a little Cro dance whenever I pull an exceedingly good shot with it....:D

But tell me why I would want a champ Cro???

I think I have a couple mint 170's tanks from back in the day that I may be willing to trade/sell, I"ll look around in the basement. Any chance of some glow CFR champion destroyers this year? My brother's and I have an annual glow only ( all nighter, all holes ) round at Highbridge every May,, it woulld be the poop to pull one of those bad boys out of my bag when we get to the Gold. Peace.

Dave -

I found two light weight, pink, gummy champion x-out GAZELLES (yes, gazelles) at my local dealer (Play It Again Sports). What is the scoop - did you guys recently make a run of clear champion gazelles, or are these old?

Is there anything new happening on the CFR scene that I should be aware of? I have an event in June coming up and am starting to think about what to order. I hope I don't make the order before you run Champ Cro's!

Thanks,
Dion



Most of the CFRs should be listed at our web site. The Champion Cros have already been run.

The Champion Gazelles are not new. They were run more than a year ago.

I LOVE the Star Cro sooo much I had to make a little Cro dance whenever I pull an exceedingly good shot with it....:D

But tell me why I would want a champ Cro???



I don't know, but some people like Champion over Star.

I think I have a couple mint 170's tanks from back in the day that I may be willing to trade/sell, I"ll look around in the basement. Any chance of some glow CFR champion destroyers this year? My brother's and I have an annual glow only ( all nighter, all holes ) round at Highbridge every May,, it woulld be the poop to pull one of those bad boys out of my bag when we get to the Gold. Peace.



Probably a good idea to make some Champ Glos when we run Champion Destroyers again. I am not sure when they are scheduled again.

Dave,
I know a fellow Kansan who is selling an Innova IDX on ebay. I have never seen or heard of one, and he wasn't even sure what it was. I was wondering if you could shed some light on the situation? What are the flight characteristics? Thank you very much in advance!

Dave,
I know a fellow Kansan who is selling an Innova IDX on ebay. I have never seen or heard of one, and he wasn't even sure what it was. I was wondering if you could shed some light on the situation? What are the flight characteristics? Thank you very much in advance!



I believe that is a first run Goblin.

Hello, I have a question regarding rocs. I throw the 11x kc rocs right now, and while searching through my discs found a ching roc. the top seems ver flat, and I am wondering how these fly compared to a regular rancho roc? thank you.

I think the ching rocs are more overstable, but I don't think Innova makes the Ching roc, isn't that done post production by adding the stamp?

I think the ching rocs are more overstable, but I don't think Innova makes the Ching roc, isn't that done post production by adding the stamp?



Yes, the Ching decoration process does seem to flatten the DX Rocs some.

Hello, I have a question regarding rocs. I throw the 11x kc rocs right now, and while searching through my discs found a ching roc. the top seems ver flat, and I am wondering how these fly compared to a regular rancho roc? thank you.



After a little breaking in these are the best Rocs for low, totally straight shots. Throw it flat and flat it flies...Not as good for turnovers and hyzers as other Rocs though.

Hi Dave,

Was wondering about a disc. Its a '07 Worlds Biggest Roc from England. It says Charity Fund Raiser on it, and Im almost positive its a KC Roc. I thought the KC stuff didnt get custom stamped, so Im wondering if this was a mistake or if it was done intentionally for the W.B. Weekend ? I have shown this disc to at least 20 people, all agree its a KC Roc.

Thanks.

[/QUOTE]
After a little breaking in these are the best Rocs for low, totally straight shots. Throw it flat and flat it flies...Not as good for turnovers and hyzers as other Rocs though.

[/QUOTE]

I agree that the flat Rocs aren't great for hyzers, but once they are broken in they become the best turnover Roc. Flat discs tend to be hard to flip over, but once they get over they will stay there. A beat up Ching Roc will flip over slowly and hold it forever. I am still upset I lost my favorite one a few weeks ago. Big brother is just a little too overstable.

My skull stamp ching roc just got and is still getting a bath from last weekend :confused:

Hi Dave,

Was wondering about a disc. Its a '07 Worlds Biggest Roc from England. It says Charity Fund Raiser on it, and Im almost positive its a KC Roc. I thought the KC stuff didnt get custom stamped, so Im wondering if this was a mistake or if it was done intentionally for the W.B. Weekend ? I have shown this disc to at least 20 people, all agree its a KC Roc.

Thanks.



I have no knowledge of a KC Roc custom hot stamp. It was probably an error.

Tom, I sent you a PM re: Ching Tanks KP

Tom - sent you a PM on 3/2 regarding the Tanks.

Dave,

What is up with these so called San Marino DX Rocs that Mark is selling on discgolfvalues?

Only reason I ask is because people I know that been playing 15+ years and throw san marinos laugh at this and say how is that possible? The mold is gone, not the same plastic or location etc...

Can you describe these please?

Thanks in advanced Dave...

Josh-widye

I think part of the original mold exists, and they made a new part for the one that was broken by the original specs. If you search this thread, Dave had made numerous references to it.

It's going to be the same mold pretty much but the plastic will obviously be different. The days of really still DX plastic are long gone I think. That will be a big difference that some people will not like I'm sure. I will be happy to try out the new mold and see how she flies.

What make the San Marino's so special? I know the Ontario's tend to flip but what do the San Marinos do?

San Marinos were the original mold rocs and were stable in flight...kinda neutral. The mold "broke" and in an attempt to recreate the mold the Ontario mold was born, but the mold was slightly less stable than the original. According to Roc legend, this almost killed the Roc. So another mold variant was made , the Rancho Cucamunga. This mold was alot closer to the original but abit more overstable and the plastic wasn't the same stiff dx but instead the newer softer dx.

Mold names came from where the factory was currently located at the time.

I guess you can consider the New San Marino mold Rocs, Roc-X's ;)
Maybe.....

[QUOTE]
According to Roc legend,[QUOTE]


...a Roc is supposed to be strong enough to pick up an elephant and fly with it in its talons. :D

Dave,

How's testing going on the more overstable Destroyer? I would like a Destroyer that I could trust to hold hyzer and still go a mile. Also, are all Destroyers being made in the same, soft star plastic? I would love to have one that was stiff like the 12x star Wraiths.

Hey y'all - I don't mean to post on Dave's thread, but I thought you should know that Dave is at the Memorial. I just wanted to make sure that you folks knew. Keep the questions and comments coming; I am sure he will look at them all come Monday.

Take care,
Harold Duvall

Hey y'all - I don't mean to post on Dave's thread,

Take care,
Harold Duvall



I guess we can forgive you... :D Once in a while we get reminded that Dave is a person and not some all-knowing computer that we just plug questions into and get instant responses. Thanks to both you guys!

Once in a while we get reminded that Dave is a person and not some all-knowing computer that we just plug questions into and get instant responses.



Yeah....when Dave purchased that computer for himself it made his life a load easier!!!:D

Dave,

How's testing going on the more overstable Destroyer? I would like a Destroyer that I could trust to hold hyzer and still go a mile. Also, are all Destroyers being made in the same, soft star plastic? I would love to have one that was stiff like the 12x star Wraiths.



A more overstable Destroyer would be a Teerex.

ive got a factory stamped seconds destroyer that is much more stable.

I don't want to make it look like I'm bashing Innova ( I love aviars,rocs,leopards,teebirds,fierbirds,destroyers )but enuff is enuff.
Why do they fell like they need to make so many disc that are more over/under stable then the last.

Variety is the spice of life!! But there are so many discs with so many different types of plastic and constant retoolings and x-versions ,that it has become impossible to keep track of what is what.My question to Dave is this, when a disc is retooled or made with an X-vesion, were on the Innova web site can you find this information? When a disc goes out of production , where can that information be found? As a consumer and supporter of Innova for over 20 years I'm just wondering why more information isn't out there. Or is it and I have yet to find it? If I had just 1 disc in every version of plastic in every mold availible( like 1 beast in champ,1 in star, 1 in dx, and so on)I would have over 350 discs. Now try to get a mix of weights and colors and maybe a few dyes in there and your talking a couple thousand discs. Wow!! Thats a big number! It's very hard as a course pro to keep people happy. Does Innova have a goal of how many models in production would be ideal? Or is the sky the limit? Just keep getting a bigger warehouse. Dave, thank you for answering all these crazy questions all the time. I think that is awesome!!! Thanks for makeing the greatest products for me to enjoy the greatest sport that I have ever played. Thanks again, Mark

Dave,

What is up with these so called San Marino DX Rocs that Mark is selling on discgolfvalues?

Only reason I ask is because people I know that been playing 15+ years and throw san marinos laugh at this and say how is that possible? The mold is gone, not the same plastic or location etc...

Can you describe these please?

Thanks in advanced Dave...

Josh-widye



Yes, the new San Marino has one new part of the three that make the mold. The part with the engraving is new. The mold is essentially identical to the original. Material and molding will determine the exact shape, feel, and flight characteristic. The discs we have made so far are in between the Ontario and Rancho Rocs as far as flight characteristic goes. The DX material we are running them in is fairly stiff, but not as stiff as the originals. I think San Marino fans will like it.

Discgolfvalues could be selling the originals, or the remake. He has both, as far as I know.

Dave,

How's testing going on the more overstable Destroyer? I would like a Destroyer that I could trust to hold hyzer and still go a mile. Also, are all Destroyers being made in the same, soft star plastic? I would love to have one that was stiff like the 12x star Wraiths.



We are currently running the XCaliber, which is a more stable/overstable version of our Destroyer. It was sent in for certification a week ago. So far, we have run it in a recycled Star plastic that was working pretty well. We will run it in the other plastics when we can. It is very difficult to turn this disc over.

Most of the Destroyers are run in a medium Star plastic. We prefer not to run in any stiffer plastic.

Variety is the spice of life!! But there are so many discs with so many different types of plastic and constant retoolings and x-versions ,that it has become impossible to keep track of what is what.My question to Dave is this, when a disc is retooled or made with an X-vesion, were on the Innova web site can you find this information? When a disc goes out of production , where can that information be found? As a consumer and supporter of Innova for over 20 years I'm just wondering why more information isn't out there. Or is it and I have yet to find it? If I had just 1 disc in every version of plastic in every mold availible( like 1 beast in champ,1 in star, 1 in dx, and so on)I would have over 350 discs. Now try to get a mix of weights and colors and maybe a few dyes in there and your talking a couple thousand discs. Wow!! Thats a big number! It's very hard as a course pro to keep people happy. Does Innova have a goal of how many models in production would be ideal? Or is the sky the limit? Just keep getting a bigger warehouse. Dave, thank you for answering all these crazy questions all the time. I think that is awesome!!! Thanks for makeing the greatest products for me to enjoy the greatest sport that I have ever played. Thanks again, Mark



I think, having a page, at our website, that details the history of our models could be helpful. Our throwing charts are supposed to offer guidance for all of our current commercial offerings.

We make models for two reasons: first, we think there is a market niche, and second, I want some toys to play with. Between those two reasons, (sales and preference), we decide which discs to keep, and which to discontinue. Either one of these decisions is difficult, most of the time.

If we keep too many discs that are marginal sellers, we have clutter and difficulty for our customers to decide which discs they want. Also, warehouse space is expensive, and too many models that don't sell well, is not good. If we discontinue a disc, we have unhappy customers who want us to continue making it. Every model we have ever made has had fans who want us to continue making it. I would have liked to have kept every disc we have ever made in a non commercial specialty site, but that has not been possible, due to warehouse space and molding time.

We have a lot of different models basically because there are so many different tastes/needs for discs. Weights, colors, glow, feels, initial flight characteristics, break in flight characteristics, putters, approachers, fairway drivers, overhead throwers, rollers, sidearm specialty, and distance drivers are some of the sub sets of discs. The material and molding of one model can be a whole sub set by itself.

I think it comes down to pleasing some of the people some of the time, while trying to please all of the people some of the time. We know we can't please everyone all the time.

Dave,

How's testing going on the more overstable Destroyer? I would like a Destroyer that I could trust to hold hyzer and still go a mile. Also, are all Destroyers being made in the same, soft star plastic? I would love to have one that was stiff like the 12x star Wraiths.



We are currently running the XCaliber, which is a more stable/overstable version of our Destroyer. It was sent in for certification a week ago. So far, we have run it in a recycled Star plastic that was working pretty well. We will run it in the other plastics when we can. It is very difficult to turn this disc over.

Most of the Destroyers are run in a medium Star plastic. We prefer not to run in any stiffer plastic.



Thanks Dave...I only hope that I possess the power to pull XCaliber from its stone resting place! :D

I think the Star Whippet should be a standard run disc. It is the Star Teebird XX, and it makes total sense to add it to the lineup in Star.

Anything you can do Dave to make that happen would be great.

You are doing a great job, Dave. Did anyone tell you that today? Well, you are... (chuckle)

I'll second that GREAT JOB DAVE and CREW.....don't for get the little guys in the trenches......The destroyer is a great disc and a welcome add in my bag 2 star 1 proto stamp 1 champ 1 pro....looking forward to the xcaliber.


Are the stock run Star tee rex x still being molded?

Dave here is a different kind of question if I come to the factory can I get a tour?

Dave here is a different kind of question if I come to the factory can I get a tour?



2nd. PLEASE! My family is actually thinking of a Cali vacation (live in Oklahoma---please help :D)

Hey I'm part of the fam and I didn't get the memo....I wanna see INNOVA :cool:

I think you could tour the nice reception area and pick up a few brochures...

I know it's not the same thing as walking thru, but maybe producing a controlled video tour of how discs are made could suffice where you could make sure no trade secrets are being revealed?

Thanks Dave for passing that on to Harold.

Josh

Dave,

How's testing going on the more overstable Destroyer? I would like a Destroyer that I could trust to hold hyzer and still go a mile. Also, are all Destroyers being made in the same, soft star plastic? I would love to have one that was stiff like the 12x star Wraiths.



We are currently running the XCaliber, which is a more stable/overstable version of our Destroyer. It was sent in for certification a week ago. So far, we have run it in a recycled Star plastic that was working pretty well. We will run it in the other plastics when we can. It is very difficult to turn this disc over.

Most of the Destroyers are run in a medium Star plastic. We prefer not to run in any stiffer plastic.



When will these be available?
Will there be first runs with the big star stamp?

Here in Kansas where it is very windy most of the time this new disc would be a great addition to my bag.

The XCaliber would make a great intro for the 2008 Worlds, don'tcha think? ;)

How's about some CFR champ/star rams. They could almost be tropheys they'd be so rare!!! :D

I think you could tour the nice reception area and pick up a few brochures...

I know it's not the same thing as walking thru, but maybe producing a controlled video tour of how discs are made could suffice where you could make sure no trade secrets are being revealed?



My theory is that Dave doesn't want anyone to see the Oompa-Loompas that do all of the work inside the factory. Aside from concerns about Discraft, Gateway, et.al. finding out about this little secret and then trying to steal them away, it could raise some eyebrows at INS...

So long as he's paying the Oompa's fair wages, and also if they're legal to be in this country I dont see what Dave would have to worry about. They are legal, arent they Dave?

Dave,

While at the GCC in Vegas I noticed Barry was wearing a black long sleeve Roc collared shirt. Are these available to the public or only specially made for top touring pro's?
Thanks

Are the stock run Star tee rex x still being molded?



No, but the Star TeeRex we run now is more stable than the original.

I think you could tour the nice reception area and pick up a few brochures...

I know it's not the same thing as walking thru, but maybe producing a controlled video tour of how discs are made could suffice where you could make sure no trade secrets are being revealed?



Yes, we don't give any tours any more. I suppose we could do a controlled video tour.

When will these be available?
Will there be first runs with the big star stamp?

Here in Kansas where it is very windy most of the time this new disc would be a great addition to my bag.



I always get in a little trouble if I estimate too soon, when a new disc will be released. It is up to the sales staffs on both coasts. But, we have already made enough. We just need to ship them to the other coast and have them hotstamped. I am not sure what the first stamp will be, and that in itself could cause a delay.

Dave,

While at the GCC in Vegas I noticed Barry was wearing a black long sleeve Roc collared shirt. Are these available to the public or only specially made for top touring pro's?
Thanks



Sorry, I don't know. I haven't seen it.

Are the stock run Star tee rex x still being molded?



No, but the Star TeeRex we run now is more stable than the original.



It is awesome too...

how will we know the difference between the runs (wanting the more stable version...)?

how will we know the difference between the runs (wanting the more stable version...)?



I would like to know too I stoped throwing them because they were not as stable as the fist one I had so I gave up on them because they would turn over on me.

Dave, the flight characteristics for the XCaliber?... 12-4-1-4 (?)

how will we know the difference between the runs (wanting the more stable version...)?



Right now, I don't know.

Dave, the flight characteristics for the XCaliber?... 12-4-1-4 (?)



Right now, I would assign the same numbers to the XCaliber as we did to the Destroyer. We have only run Star XCalibers at this point. It is possible the Champion and DX versions will be more overstable. I would compare the XCaliber to the Pro Destroyers at this point. The Pro Destroyers were the most stable to overstable of the Destroyers.

The Pro Destroyers were the most stable to overstable of the Destroyers.



Thank you Dave...

...people have been arguing that fact with me, saying the Champ was the most overstable, but I thought it simply was not so. A brand new Pro Destroyer is a very piggly little disc... :D

The Pro Destroyers were the most stable to overstable of the Destroyers.



Thank you Dave...

...people have been arguing that fact with me, saying the Champ was the most overstable, but I thought it simply was not so. A brand new Pro Destroyer is a very piggly little disc... :D




Isn't that what they were throwing at USDGC? I heard that half of those were flippy even from hyzer.

my yellow 169 pros are less stable than my 171 yellow stars....

My max weight pros are much more stable than my max weight champs. IMO it goes pro, Champ, then Star as far as stability

how will we know the difference between the runs (wanting the more stable version...)?



Right now, I don't know.



Why not change the written initials on the bottom moving forward.

The new TR has a much more blunt nose than the original TR, more like a Monster.

how will we know the difference between the runs (wanting the more stable version...)?



Right now, I don't know.



Why not change the written initials on the bottom moving forward.

The new TR has a much more blunt nose than the original TR, more like a Monster.



Good call... or even date them? in the amount of time it takes to write '175 TR' you wouldnt think it'd take much more time to write 3/08 (for march 08)

how will we know the difference between the runs (wanting the more stable version...)?



Right now, I don't know.



Why not change the written initials on the bottom moving forward.

The new TR has a much more blunt nose than the original TR, more like a Monster.



Is this true? Tell tale?

how will we know the difference between the runs (wanting the more stable version...)?



Right now, I don't know.



Why not change the written initials on the bottom moving forward.

The new TR has a much more blunt nose than the original TR, more like a Monster.



Is this true? Tell tale?



Look for the square nose...BTW, the new one I bought was not as stable as I was hoping for.

this also makes them a touch slower

Hey Dave, I was wondering if you guys ever made a glow rhyno, and if not is there any chance of making any at some time in the future for us gorilla night freak golfers. Maybe even a champion glow run? I asked my local retailer and he replied "Hell if I know".

Hey Dave, I was wondering if you guys ever made a glow rhyno, and if not is there any chance of making any at some time in the future for us gorilla night freak golfers. Maybe even a champion glow run? I asked my local retailer and he replied "Hell if I know".



I don't believe we have made any glow Rhynos. There is always a chance we will if we get a new glow pigment.

how will we know the difference between the runs (wanting the more stable version...)?



Right now, I don't know.



Why not change the written initials on the bottom moving forward.

The new TR has a much more blunt nose than the original TR, more like a Monster.



Is this true? Tell tale?



Look for the square nose...BTW, the new one I bought was not as stable as I was hoping for.



I found them to be right between a Wraith and a Monster. I believe that is right where the disc should be in the flight chart.

If the Teerex were to be made more stable it would be a Star Monster. The Star Monster is not really what you would call a pig... it does have tremendous glide for an overstable disc.

I will say that my discs were "tuned" constantly for more stability as the disc broke in and the flash started to wear off. For that matter all of my Teerexs and Monsters have been tuned for more stability since it is still pretty chilly weather which makes the air pretty thick. I will guess that they will be TOO overstable when it is 95+ degrees this summer.

All in all, the Teerex is right where it should be, and I am very happy with it, and I have tried everything. It is just stable enough to be predictable if thrown from a hyser, but fast and glidey enough to be long (like as long as anything I throw). The sad fact is that the bigger the notch becomes on these large winged drivers (adding "true stability", the shorter the disc becomes. The TRX-X I tested was a PIG even in DX, more like a brand new Predator.

One thing to consider here. Dave must take into account the fact that people are buying his discs all over the country. People are living in locations at extremes of density due to altitude and temperature. Discspeed lives in Florida and I live in Texas. We will typically experience much higher densities than someone who does not live at near sea level. Because of this reason our disc reviews will typically be tending towards seeing less stability than say, someone from Colorado who throw at higher altitudes and see a lot more stability from the same disc.

I had to spend some time tuning my Teerexs as the Star plastic is unbelievably resilient, but once set they have held there stability ever since and have behaved accordingly. I did stop cutting off the flash as soon as I bought the disc and let the flash wear off naturally as the disc hysers and fights the wind very nicely when new with the flash present.

BTW, Discspeed, PM me and I will trade you out of your Teerex if it is the new style.

this also makes them a touch slower



it's hard for me to think that there is a comparison from the trex to the monster. super-hucking the monster _might_ yeild a 400'er at best. The shear difference in speed should keep it out of the conversation (max weight convo per say). :eek: Dont rub it in southerner...tx, fl, you're all weak and unable to survive in the harsh MI winter! :D:D:D...but I'm happy to visit from Nov to March! ;)

this also makes them a touch slower



it's hard for me to think that there is a comparison from the trex to the monster. super-hucking the monster _might_ yeild a 400'er at best. The shear difference in speed should keep it out of the conversation (max weight convo per say). :eek:



That was my point, the Teerex is *just* stable enough to go long. Any more stability and the distance starts to suffer.

Interestingly, I actually find the new TR's with the flash left on will take more headwind wind than the current Star Monster without it (even after tuning).

If there was some way to make that flash line permanent...

Kind of like a TR-1/2X...