Oh....BTW

The Star Whippet should be in the Innova line up permanently...

....seriously.

I like the Star Whippet X...

I don't know if that is the only Star whippet made, but it is nice...

I also like the star whippet, but i don't like the champion whippet, i guess it flies ok but it doesnt double up as a good thumber disc.

why? what is the difference?

Im not really sure, maybe its just me but i can throw the star 325, and the champ goes maybe 250. lol

The Star Whippet X is like a Teebird XX, or like a Teebird and Predator had a baby and made the Whippet X. It is incredibly useable and predictable.

It is right between a Gator and a Firebird and is more predictable than both...

Dave,

Will Innova be making a less stable version of the destroyer?

Oh....BTW

The Star Whippet should be in the Innova line up permanently...

....seriously.



second, third, and fourth this statement. Hopefully some lighter weights too!

Dave,

Will Innova be making a less stable version of the destroyer?



There are 150 class DX destroyers...how much flip do you want?

Dave,

Will Innova be making a less stable version of the destroyer?



If I can figure out how to do it and maintain weight, yes.

I'm having trouble understanding why there would be a need for a less stable version of the destroyer. I assume by less stable destroyer jtkustomizer wants a wide rimmed, ultra fast turnover disc. Like a speed 12 sidewinder...I could potentially see that being fun to throw.

I'm looking forward to the XCaliber - sounds like my kind of disc. The star whippet is money as well! I never threw whippets till I was given a star to try and already it has a secure spot in the bag (as well as hitting basket two or three times already).

Destroyer -L?

For weight, thicken the flight plate...

I would like to see one of the companies make a specialty disc for overhand and fh rollers. I would personally like to see a wide rim like 2.3ish. flat profil like a flick, with a very blunt nose like a whippet... Anyone else like to see something like this?

Ron....I would like a less stable version that isnt so skippy and that doesnt fade as hard at the end if the flight. I am not looking for a turnover disc because if I need a turnover shot I just switch to a forehand and flick it.

I am also looking forward to the XCaliber for those in to the wind shots that would usually flip the destroyer.


Dave Thanks for answering my question.

Dave,

I don't know if you have seen Discrafts videos on youtube...

Where is Innova's counter attack?

Video is one of the best media for capturing the attention of the new generations of golfers, it would be sad to see Discraft keep this strategy to themselves...

I just went and looked at this.....wow INNOVA come on you gotta have something....that almost makes me want to....no I won't say it :o;) :cool::D

agreed about the discraft videos... kinda sad since this is something the pdga probably could've/should've done first so there would be no brand bias. Either way its a great way to reach the masses and hopefully show what real dg'ers are like instead of a lot of the stuff thats around the internet.

one thing innova does have that discraft doesnt is Schweb. He's been the most accessible and helpful pro online for the past few years i've been playing and is often quick to answer questions and help (like the one someone just posted/asked about putting that he answered within 24hrs)

i had a star destroyer get completely turned around in the wind. but that day, just any disc could have done that. probably would have been better off throwing a star max.

Ron....I would like a less stable version that isnt so skippy and that doesnt fade as hard at the end if the flight. I am not looking for a turnover disc because if I need a turnover shot I just switch to a forehand and flick it.




I don't think that you need a less stable version of a destroyer if thats what your looking for. I can certainly understand the need for less fade or skip at the end of a shot - but all that means is throw a teebird or a even an orc. What does the detroyer do for you that you can't use a slower disc for? Is the speed and feel of the destroyer so good that you'd throw it even though you don't like the way it finishes? Any high speed driver is going to fade hard and skip far by design, you can't have a speed 12 disc that slows down and finishes neutral.

I'm being serious, please don't think I'm trying to shoot you down, I'm just not sure what kind of shot your trying to execute. Perhaps this may help - how far are you throwing the destroyer? What type of shot do you use it for currently?

Congrats on your win in Wichita -
Whip

ps - Dave, I finally got a camera to play around with. I'll shoot some vootage of team members Nate Sexton, Dave Feldberg, Avery Jenkins and put together a quick innova clinic - Oregon style :D

one thing innova does have that discraft doesnt is Schweb. He's been the most accessible and helpful pro online for the past few years i've been playing and is often quick to answer questions and help (like the one someone just posted/asked about putting that he answered within 24hrs)



Get the door it's Dominoes...

i must tip my cap to Dave with how well the XCaliber turned out

how do you like throwing the XCaliber with your sidearm??? you must be able to really lay into it with the extra HSS it has.

i almost wish i hadn't thrown it, because now i wish my destroyers were XCalibers :(

i must tip my cap to Dave with how well the XCaliber turned out

how do you like throwing the XCaliber with your sidearm??? you must be able to really lay into it with the extra HSS it has.

i almost wish i hadn't thrown it, because now i wish my destroyers were XCalibers :(



I will probably use the XCaliber situationally. One situation is when I have OB on one side of a fairway that I need to stay out of. I will use it for this situation backhand or sidearm. Yes, I can lay into my sidearm with the XCaliber, but I can't throw dirty (flutter) shots and expect no turn at all into a wind. The other situation will be for long reverse shots into a wind or otherwise. Other than these two or the occasional spike, I will use either a Star Destroyer, or a Star Wraith. The Destroyer, and especially the XCaliber need to get on an anhyzer angle to get distance, otherwise I can get more distance from a Wraith or even a Roadrunner. On the other hand, the DX Destroyer seems to get the distance anyway.

Dave, I tried to go back and find the forum post but was unable to locate it.

What is a XCaliber?

XCaliber = a more stable destroyer

is the Xcaliber already in production?

Dave, I tried to go back and find the forum post but was unable to locate it.

What is a XCaliber?



As Josh says, it is a more stable Destroyer. It is already in production in Star plastic. It will has already been approved and will be widely available as soon as we can. I would guess in about two weeks.

Cant wait to check one out.

I also like the star whippet, but i don't like the champion whippet, i guess it flies ok but it doesnt double up as a good thumber disc.



Champion Whippet X is the most overstable of all the Whippets by far, IMO. Also, if flying ok means that it tries to get overstable and dive into the ground faster than any other disc, then yes, it flies ok.

I been throwing every Whippet since the 9x . . . luv em all . . . .star too . . . .champ X . . . .GOLDEN . . . . ..


DAVE D . . . . When we getting the Champion MAX . . . The guy at the memorial from Austin that took second. .(AMS) . . . .forehand crazy!!! . . . . LOVEs the Max. . . . .we NEED that CHAMPION!!!! :D:D:D

Dave, Will the XCaliber be released with the proto star first run stamp?

Dave, Will the XCaliber be released with the proto star first run stamp?



We are working on some form of first stamp or Star stamp. We are also releasing quite a few in a "green" plastic. It's called "green" not because it is mint green, (which it is), but because it is recycled, reprocessed, and reinjected bad parts from previous runs. (We have a lot of these). So, it is not post consumer plastic, which is mainly PP, PE, and PET. We are also looking into a post consumer pro plastic for later. If it works well for our needs, we will use that too.

DAVE D . . . . When we getting the Champion MAX . . . The guy at the memorial from Austin that took second. .(AMS) . . . .forehand crazy!!! . . . . LOVEs the Max. . . . .we NEED that CHAMPION!!!! :D:D:D




I have seen a Champion Max on Ebay once, but with there new search topics its a lot harder to search discs on Ebay and that sucks.

The XCalibur possibly in a couple weeks... That's lovely timing and a BUNCH could be sold easily if they were at the BG Ams in two weeks. Just a thought.

Dave, Will the XCaliber be released with the proto star first run stamp?



We are working on some form of first stamp or Star stamp. We are also releasing quite a few in a "green" plastic. It's called "green" not because it is mint green, (which it is), but because it is recycled, reprocessed, and reinjected bad parts from previous runs. (We have a lot of these). So, it is not post consumer plastic, which is mainly PP, PE, and PET. We are also looking into a post consumer pro plastic for later. If it works well for our needs, we will use that too.



What a good Idea Dave.

I would love to have a few "Green" discs in my bag/backup stash. I have a first run Destroyer that is green and has been my go to driver for months now and it still flies like a brand new destroyer.

I can confirm it's been approved by PDGA Tech Standards subject to final rubber stamp from Board.

i like the idea of post consumer plastic going into my discs. there is so much out there, seems like disc companies could put it to good use. i wouldnt feel so bad about owning 100 discs that way

Dave,
The "recycled" plastic is a great idea, kudos on that. Now, I have a question for your professional consideration. I have been told that weight differences in identical plastic and molds will produce minimal differences in flight characteristics, below massive variations. I believe the quote was something to the effect of " Three grams means almost nothing" . I am not sure that I agree with this, given the understanding to the speaker that we all throw differently. Now, If I am looking at two "identical" discs, let's say Star Destroyers, and I cannot observe a difference in the posture (dome to be precise) , how can different weights behave so unlike one another? More to the point, would you say that a millimeter or so of dome (hard to see without benefit of straightedge) would cause a more radical change in flight than a couple of grams of weight? Again, benefit of the doubt to the knowledge that discmaking may walk a thin line between art and science. KP

DAVE D . . . . When we getting the Champion MAX . . . The guy at the memorial from Austin that took second. .(AMS) . . . .forehand crazy!!! . . . . LOVEs the Max. . . . .we NEED that CHAMPION!!!! :D:D:D






I have seen a Champion Max on Ebay once, but with there new search topics its a lot harder to search discs on Ebay and that sucks.



dAVe . . . .cHAnce AT A cHAMpIOn MAX ?????

I knOW MArTY HArper WOUld ApprOVe!! ;)

The XCalibur possibly in a couple weeks... That's lovely timing and a BUNCH could be sold easily if they were at the BG Ams in two weeks. Just a thought.



It would be cool if they were in our players packages so everyone would get a chance to throw em. I know the packages were finalized a few weeks ago, but none of us we're told what was in them. I'm betting a San Marino DX Roc from INNOVA, a Force from Discraft, a Magic from Gateway.

Also, Dave, with INNOVA hosting a putting contest here for the BG Ams tourney are you going to have some of your big name players come down or just some regular representatives?

Dave,
The "recycled" plastic is a great idea, kudos on that. Now, I have a question for your professional consideration. I have been told that weight differences in identical plastic and molds will produce minimal differences in flight characteristics, below massive variations. I believe the quote was something to the effect of " Three grams means almost nothing" . I am not sure that I agree with this, given the understanding to the speaker that we all throw differently. Now, If I am looking at two "identical" discs, let's say Star Destroyers, and I cannot observe a difference in the posture (dome to be precise) , how can different weights behave so unlike one another? More to the point, would you say that a millimeter or so of dome (hard to see without benefit of straightedge) would cause a more radical change in flight than a couple of grams of weight? Again, benefit of the doubt to the knowledge that discmaking may walk a thin line between art and science. KP



Neither a 3 gm change in weight or a millimeter change in dome would change the flight in a disc perceptibly (for most people), in and of themselves. Both would affect the flight if they were greater, say 5 to 10 gms and 1/32" to 1/16".

Higher dome would, by itself, translate to slower speed, greater lift, and more inherent stability. Greater weight would translate to greater inertia, (ability to sustain initial velocity), greater torque resistance, and less ability to maintain flight at any given speed. As greater weight gives greater inertia, the disc will slow down less and recapture some of the lost float due to higher weight.

But, to answer your question; I don't know which would affect flight more.

dAVe . . . .cHAnce AT A cHAMpIOn MAX ?????

I knOW MArTY HArper WOUld ApprOVe!! ;)



Always a chance.

Also, Dave, with INNOVA hosting a putting contest here for the BG Ams tourney are you going to have some of your big name players come down or just some regular representatives?



Sorry, I don't know the particulars.

Are DX Sidewinders still on the production schedule and when is their projected release?

Thanks...

Are DX Sidewinders still on the production schedule and when is their projected release?

Thanks...



Yes. Production will start soon, but we have no projected release date as yet.

dAVe . . . .cHAnce AT A cHAMpIOn MAX ?????

I knOW MArTY HArper WOUld ApprOVe!! ;)



Always a chance.



sO WHen WIll YOU MAke THIS HAppen . . . We be TAlkIng HOTTcAkes!!!!!!!!!!

CHAMPIon MAX bIg broTHer!!!

Dave do you know if they will have some XCalibers at the Bowling Green NT stop in April or are they still testing it?

Question #2... I heard a rumor that Innocolor on full sized discs were going to be discontinued and only made on MINI's. Is that true?

Thanks,

Josh

Dave do you know if they will have some XCalibers at the Bowling Green NT stop in April or are they still testing it?

Question #2... I heard a rumor that Innocolor on full sized discs were going to be discontinued and only made on MINI's. Is that true?

Thanks,

Josh



XCalibers will be ready as soon as we hot stamp them. They have already been produced and tested.

INNColor has been changed from a full coverage to a partial coverage due to technical problems. The coverage will be a litter bigger than a hot stamp. Or about 6 1/2" instead of 5 1/4" for a hot stamp.

I love the feel of the XCalibers. It is the best feeling Star plastic yet. Is there plans to run other molds in this "green" plastic? A Leopard and a Firebird would be sweet!

Thanks Dave!!!

with the recycled plastic does this mean you'd be able to melt down discs that dont get used/thrown and make them into new discs... either a ton of old discs that had been thrown or new discs that dont sell (optimizers? ;)

good to hear you are taking this step and even cooler to hear that people are liking the plastic like Cary

I love the feel of the XCalibers. It is the best feeling Star plastic yet. Is there plans to run other molds in this "green" plastic? A Leopard and a Firebird would be sweet!

Thanks Dave!!!



Yes, we plan on running other models too.

with the recycled plastic does this mean you'd be able to melt down discs that dont get used/thrown and make them into new discs... either a ton of old discs that had been thrown or new discs that dont sell (optimizers? ;)




Yes, all bad parts, short shots, double shots, etc. (there were a ton of them), returned parts that got damaged in shipping or whatever, and some used parts that weren't too old or embedded with dirt. It all gets ground up, blended, re-pelletized, and dried so that it is usable again.

Hey Dave! I remember you saying the Gator X was going into regular production some time last year ... is this still the plan? Any hints as to when we might see CH or Star Gator X available at retailers?

with the recycled plastic does this mean you'd be able to melt down discs that dont get used/thrown and make them into new discs... either a ton of old discs that had been thrown or new discs that dont sell (optimizers? ;)




Yes, all bad parts, short shots, double shots, etc. (there were a ton of them), returned parts that got damaged in shipping or whatever, and some used parts that weren't too old or embedded with dirt. It all gets ground up, blended, re-pelletized, and dried so that it is usable again.



Does that mean if I were to collect a bunch of super beat up, yet somehow dirt free, CE discs, that you could re-whatever them and spit me out a few CE destroyers?

Ya feel me? :D

cHAMpIOn MAX ! :D

Hey Dave! I remember you saying the Gator X was going into regular production some time last year ... is this still the plan? Any hints as to when we might see CH or Star Gator X available at retailers?



The Gator X is in regular production. Don't know about the availability of Ch Gator X at retailers. I don't think we have done the Star Gator X yet.

Does that mean if I were to collect a bunch of super beat up, yet somehow dirt free, CE discs, that you could re-whatever them and spit me out a few CE destroyers?

Ya feel me? :D



It would have to be a lot of them to create enough to be sent out to have re-pelletized. And, it would have to be plastic that wasn't particularly sun (UV) damaged. Regardless, old plastic could potentially be used, but the resulting product might not be as strong or cosmetically appealing as clean and undamaged plastic.

So.....it's possible...

For a box of old CE....to become a golden carriage...

...I mean a max weight destroyer...

Sweet.

At least I can dream...

Hey Dave! I remember you saying the Gator X was going into regular production some time last year ... is this still the plan? Any hints as to when we might see CH or Star Gator X available at retailers?




The Gator X is in regular production. Don't know about the availability of Ch Gator X at retailers. I don't think we have done the Star Gator X yet.



The Champ Gator X is regular production or regular CFR production??

as far as gators go, did the dx change at all? and will the champ go back into regular release? also--will all future star gators be x-type? will their be a way to tell the difference if ordering online?
thanks again

as far as gators go, did the dx change at all? and will the champ go back into regular release? also--will all future star gators be x-type? will their be a way to tell the difference if ordering online?
thanks again



Yes, to all three, I believe. All future Gators will be the more stable type, including Star. With the introduction of the Cro, I see no reason to have a "sort of" stable Gator. There should be no difference in any of the types, Star, DX, etc., in the future. As far as Gators that might be currently on the shelf, the taller blunter nose is the current model, and the rounder nose was the former. The only thing I am not certain of is the status of Champion, but I believe it will be mainstream.

I think you could tour the nice reception area and pick up a few brochures...

I know it's not the same thing as walking thru, but maybe producing a controlled video tour of how discs are made could suffice where you could make sure no trade secrets are being revealed?



Maybe hosted by Mr. Rogers?

Or Tulsa's own Scott Schumacher...looks just like Jerry Garcia...

I think he would be a fine choice, and would have reasonable rates... :cool:

as far as gators go, did the dx change at all? and will the champ go back into regular release? also--will all future star gators be x-type? will their be a way to tell the difference if ordering online?
thanks again



Yes, to all three, I believe. All future Gators will be the more stable type, including Star. With the introduction of the Cro, I see no reason to have a "sort of" stable Gator. There should be no difference in any of the types, Star, DX, etc., in the future. As far as Gators that might be currently on the shelf, the taller blunter nose is the current model, and the rounder nose was the former. The only thing I am not certain of is the status of Champion, but I believe it will be mainstream.



That makes me happy!!!

Dave,

I don't know if you have seen Discrafts videos on youtube...

Where is Innova's counter attack?

Video is one of the best media for capturing the attention of the new generations of golfers, it would be sad to see Discraft keep this strategy to themselves...



Missed question...

Yo Dave, hook it up with an Excalibur when you come down to Emerald Isle!

cHAMpIOn MAX ! ! (pleAse) :D:D

cHAMpIOn MAX ! ! (pleAse) :D:D



Will the Xcaliber replace the Max? It seems like a faster overstable disc would eliminate the use of the Max.

cHAMpIOn MAX ! ! (pleAse) :D:D



Will the Xcaliber replace the Max? It seems like a faster overstable disc would eliminate the use of the Max.



You really can't know how any disc will work for other people, but for me, the XCaliber does replace the Max, with a faster version.

cHAMpIOn MAX ! ! (pleAse) :D:D



Will the Xcaliber replace the Max? It seems like a faster overstable disc would eliminate the use of the Max.



You really can't know how any disc will work for other people, but for me, the XCaliber does replace the Max, with a faster version.



Good point. I hear Kenny's already an Xcaliber fan...I think that this disc is going to be a hit with a lot of good players.

cHAMpIOn MAX ! ! (pleAse) :D:D



Will the Xcaliber replace the Max? It seems like a faster overstable disc would eliminate the use of the Max.



You really can't know how any disc will work for other people, but for me, the XCaliber does replace the Max, with a faster version.



i would love it if you keep the max becuase i think the faster Xcaliber would a little to fast for me the max works prefect unless you come out with a lighter weight Xcaliber (165-168g)

cHAMpIOn MAX ! ! (pleAse) :D:D



Will the Xcaliber replace the Max? It seems like a faster overstable disc would eliminate the use of the Max.



You really can't know how any disc will work for other people, but for me, the XCaliber does replace the Max, with a faster version.



i would love it if you keep the max becuase i think the faster Xcaliber would a little to fast for me the max works prefect unless you come out with a lighter weight Xcaliber (165-168g)



Ii Agree . . .THE CHAMp MAX beIng slOWer . . . .MAkes THe dIsc A dIfferenT TOOl. . .. .. . .eX(TeebIrd Vs leOpArd)

dAVe . . WHAT .. .TOp? . . .rIM? .. .UnderWIng? dIfferences dO THe MAX And XcAlIber HAVE? flIgHT cHArAcTerIsTIcs?

I THInk THe MAX AppeAls TO fOreHAnd shOTs MOre .. . .And . . .. XcAliber to bAckHAnd sHOTs.... eH?
:D

Ii Agree . . .THE CHAMp MAX beIng slOWer . . . .MAkes THe dIsc A dIfferenT TOOl. . .. .. . .eX(TeebIrd Vs leOpArd)

dAVe . . WHAT .. .TOp? . . .rIM? .. .UnderWIng? dIfferences dO THe MAX And XcAlIber HAVE? flIgHT cHArAcTerIsTIcs?

I THInk THe MAX AppeAls TO fOreHAnd shOTs MOre .. . .And . . .. XcAliber to bAckHAnd sHOTs.... eH?
:D



The Max will still be in the line up. The Max has a beefier rim. The XCaliber has a slightly wider and thinner rim. The XCaliber goes down to 169 gms in Star plastic.

Ii Agree . . .THE CHAMp MAX beIng slOWer . . . .MAkes THe dIsc A dIfferenT TOOl. . .. .. . .eX(TeebIrd Vs leOpArd)

dAVe . . WHAT .. .TOp? . . .rIM? .. .UnderWIng? dIfferences dO THe MAX And XcAlIber HAVE? flIgHT cHArAcTerIsTIcs?

I THInk THe MAX AppeAls TO fOreHAnd shOTs MOre .. . .And . . .. XcAliber to bAckHAnd sHOTs.... eH?
:D



The Max will still be in the line up. The Max has a beefier rim. The XCaliber has a slightly wider and thinner rim. The XCaliber goes down to 169 gms in Star plastic.



sweet have always loved the max for sidearm shots

Post deleted by The_RedHaired_One

Dave,

I don't know if you have seen Discrafts videos on youtube...

Where is Innova's counter attack?

Video is one of the best media for capturing the attention of the new generations of golfers, it would be sad to see Discraft keep this strategy to themselves...



Missed question...



Are you intentionally avoiding this? :D

If so I will stop asking...

Otherwise, go grab a nice video camera from Best Buy, make your badarse footage, take the camera back because it doesn't "speak to you", post, and enjoy...

Repeat if necessary...



Dave seems to enjoy answering questions abouts Innova discs and disc design. He does not seem to be as involved/interested in talking about other Innova business. These are just my observations from posting here over the past 4 years. If Dave didn't answer you the second time, give him a break!

Ii Agree . . .THE CHAMp MAX beIng slOWer . . . .MAkes THe dIsc A dIfferenT TOOl. . .. .. . .eX(TeebIrd Vs leOpArd)

dAVe . . WHAT .. .TOp? . . .rIM? .. .UnderWIng? dIfferences dO THe MAX And XcAlIber HAVE? flIgHT cHArAcTerIsTIcs?

I THInk THe MAX AppeAls TO fOreHAnd shOTs MOre .. . .And . . .. XcAliber to bAckHAnd sHOTs.... eH?
:D



The Max will still be in the line up. The Max has a beefier rim. The XCaliber has a slightly wider and thinner rim. The XCaliber goes down to 169 gms in Star plastic.



THAnks . . .. ITs gOIng TO geT dIrTY . . .

are you ever going to run the TRX-X again?

are you ever going to run the TRX-X again?



That mold doesn't exist any more. It was converted to the current TRX

How light do star aviar drivers get? A friend is wanting a light one, but can only find down to 170g. I looked on the sight, but could only find Star P&A's and KC and Pro Drivers. Thanks Dave

How light do star aviar drivers get? A friend is wanting a light one, but can only find down to 170g. I looked on the sight, but could only find Star P&A's and KC and Pro Drivers. Thanks Dave



I am not sure what we have in stock, but they can be made down in 150 class.

I decided I would state some of my observations from throwing just about everything on the market in the last year. I am going to compress this as much as possible to keep it short and sweet.

Innova has the 7 speed portion of their flight chart completely covered. From left to right we have the Whippet, Teebird, Eagle-x, TL, Eagle L. A disc golfer can literal throw every single shot in the book with this lineup. This would include headwinds shots, spike hysers, skip shots, flat hyser, stall hyser, straight shot, S curve, helix, turnover, and anhyser. Not only are these discs the same speed and of similar design, they are in fact nearly identical to hold in the hand. If a thrower were blindfolded, it would be nearly impossible to tell the difference �which is which� if held in a standard power grip or fork grip. In this respect, the thrower requires not one single adjustment to his/her grip to switch discs. Heck, if you set these discs (in identical plastic) on table and told people to tell them apart, it would take a discerning eye to tell the difference. Also, due to there design these discs do not change much with disc wear.

These discs get most of the variation from varying the depth and shape of the notch.

Now when we get to the 10-11 speed, why not do the same thing? At the 11 speed we have the Wraith, Teerex and Max/Monster, all are essentially L winged discs. To me, the Wraith and the Teerex compliment each other nicely in the Eagle to Teebird role, but the Max/Monster in the current configuration is no more reliable in really bad crosswinds and headwinds than a new Teerex (with the production flash still intact). In fact, the Teerex is much more useful with the flash acting as a small notch in bad conditions.

To me, this very overstable, unflippable, very fast disc, with some dome for glide and a real X style notch is the one disc missing in Innova�s modern disc lineup. Basically, Innova needs a disc like a Discraft Predator for true stable performance for good players when conditions get bad.

The current Teerex with a small notch or a more under cambered wing could eliminate the need for the Max and do a better job in very high winds. It would also be easier to mold in lighter weights.

Do you think there will ever be a notch type overstable driver in Innova�s future?

BTW, I am not advocating that the current Teerex be modified. I am saying that a Teerex-X like disc might be better than a Max type driver.

How light do star aviar drivers get? A friend is wanting a light one, but can only find down to 170g. I looked on the sight, but could only find Star P&A's and KC and Pro Drivers. Thanks Dave



I am not sure what we have in stock, but they can be made down in 150 class.



They are out there in the 150 class, i putt with one. great disc. maybe a local retailer might have one?
not to pimp any one retailer, but i think i got mine online at discgolfvalues.com

I decided I would state some of my observations from throwing just about everything on the market in the last year. I am going to compress this as much as possible to keep it short and sweet.

Innova has the 7 speed portion of their flight chart completely covered. From left to right we have the Whippet, Teebird, Eagle-x, TL, Eagle L. A disc golfer can literal throw every single shot in the book with this lineup. This would include headwinds shots, spike hysers, skip shots, flat hyser, stall hyser, straight shot, S curve, helix, turnover, and anhyser. Not only are these discs the same speed and of similar design, they are in fact nearly identical to hold in the hand. If a thrower were blindfolded, it would be nearly impossible to tell the difference �which is which� if held in a standard power grip or fork grip. In this respect, the thrower requires not one single adjustment to his/her grip to switch discs. Heck, if you set these discs (in identical plastic) on table and told people to tell them apart, it would take a discerning eye to tell the difference. Also, due to there design these discs do not change much with disc wear.

These discs get most of the variation from varying the depth and shape of the notch.

Now when we get to the 10-11 speed, why not do the same thing? At the 11 speed we have the Wraith, Teerex and Max/Monster, all are essentially L winged discs. To me, the Wraith and the Teerex compliment each other nicely in the Eagle to Teebird role, but the Max/Monster in the current configuration is no more reliable in really bad crosswinds and headwinds than a new Teerex (with the production flash still intact). In fact, the Teerex is much more useful with the flash acting as a small notch in bad conditions.

To me, this very overstable, unflippable, very fast disc, with some dome for glide and a real X style notch is the one disc missing in Innova�s modern disc lineup. Basically, Innova needs a disc like a Discraft Predator for true stable performance for good players when conditions get bad.

The current Teerex with a small notch or a more under cambered wing could eliminate the need for the Max and do a better job in very high winds. It would also be easier to mold in lighter weights.

Do you think there will ever be a notch type overstable driver in Innova�s future?

BTW, I am not advocating that the current Teerex be modified. I am saying that a Teerex-X like disc might be better than a Max type driver.



nOW Is THAT A bAckHAnders VIeW ? . . . .. YOU knOW THeY All flIP OVer . . .. . .Ask A pOWerful sIdeArM THROWer . . . .TeereX . . . .. MUcHO flIppY. . . . And A InnOVA predATOr . . . .OUT Of qUesTIOn ..reAper .. . . MOre lIkelY . . . . :D:D:D

I decided I would state some of my observations from throwing just about everything on the market in the last year. I am going to compress this as much as possible to keep it short and sweet.

Innova has the 7 speed portion of their flight chart completely covered. From left to right we have the Whippet, Teebird, Eagle-x, TL, Eagle L. A disc golfer can literal throw every single shot in the book with this lineup. This would include headwinds shots, spike hysers, skip shots, flat hyser, stall hyser, straight shot, S curve, helix, turnover, and anhyser. Not only are these discs the same speed and of similar design, they are in fact nearly identical to hold in the hand. If a thrower were blindfolded, it would be nearly impossible to tell the difference �which is which� if held in a standard power grip or fork grip. In this respect, the thrower requires not one single adjustment to his/her grip to switch discs. Heck, if you set these discs (in identical plastic) on table and told people to tell them apart, it would take a discerning eye to tell the difference. Also, due to there design these discs do not change much with disc wear.

These discs get most of the variation from varying the depth and shape of the notch.

Now when we get to the 10-11 speed, why not do the same thing? At the 11 speed we have the Wraith, Teerex and Max/Monster, all are essentially L winged discs. To me, the Wraith and the Teerex compliment each other nicely in the Eagle to Teebird role, but the Max/Monster in the current configuration is no more reliable in really bad crosswinds and headwinds than a new Teerex (with the production flash still intact). In fact, the Teerex is much more useful with the flash acting as a small notch in bad conditions.

To me, this very overstable, unflippable, very fast disc, with some dome for glide and a real X style notch is the one disc missing in Innova�s modern disc lineup. Basically, Innova needs a disc like a Discraft Predator for true stable performance for good players when conditions get bad.

The current Teerex with a small notch or a more under cambered wing could eliminate the need for the Max and do a better job in very high winds. It would also be easier to mold in lighter weights.

Do you think there will ever be a notch type overstable driver in Innova�s future?
.



I am not sure what you mean by "notch", unless you mean the concavity in the bevel. We will probably have a disc like that at some time. Meanwhile, you might try the XCaliber.

By notch I mean a protrusion at the flash line on the bottom. The Teerex-x had a protrusion at the flash line.

Concavity would be good too when making an X type disc I suppose. It would make the disc easier to mold in lighter weights too.

My max is my got to wind driver and forehand driver, I throw 450bh and 400 fh consistently.. And i can flip the tee-rex pretty easily, especially into a headwind... I dont think there are any gaps in innova's line and there is no point of making a whole line at speeds 9,10,11,12 etc... I like the max and i know alot of people who do so i am trying to say good things about it so other people wont think its a crap disc.

I do not think any of Dave's designs are crap.

Quite the contrary. I think everything Dave makes is good, often great, and on occasion irreplaceable.

I know a lot of guys who throw the Max. I throw the Monster, but when it get really windy they all go to Firebirds and I get out the Predator.

Just my observation.

I would like a longer Whippet!!! Hahahahahaha!!!

Pre-Order the Innova Star XCaliber (Star Stamp) Here - $13.99 (http://www.sunkingdiscs.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=1810)

Yay pre-ordering!

Edit.

Hi Dave--when ordering online, how should we ask for the recycled plastic on the new x-calibers? is there a marking or look to the disc that we can describe to retailers? thanks--steven

Hi Dave--when ordering online, how should we ask for the recycled plastic on the new x-calibers? is there a marking or look to the disc that we can describe to retailers? thanks--steven



We were talking about a hot stamp, but nothing has been decided yet. For now, the only XCs that are of recycled plastic are mint green. We are also making a few other disc models in this same mint green star plastic. The Star Kite, and a few USDGC Rocs are two that have been done so far. We are planning on running some Star Green Spiders too in the near future.

thanks Dave--In your testing, was the x-caliber much different than the destroyer? thx again

I have thrown the XCaliber quite a bit over the last three days. I have a hard time throwing them backhand (along with the Destroyer) because of their super wide rim, but I am quite comfortable throwing them forehand.

Compared to the Destroyer the XCaliber (green recylcled plastic) is alot more high-speed overstable and a little more overstable at slow speeds. I can get it to flip when thrown flat, but it doesnt hold very long before it makes the flex back. The XCaliber is similar to a Max at low speeds and slightly more overstable than a good Pro Destroyer at high speeds.

This disc will stay in the bag for Forehand distance shots, backhand skip-shots and low flex shots. It is a great compliment to the Destroyer!

So the Destroyer is the 12 speed Wraith and the XC is the 12 speed Teerex?

So the Destroyer is the 12 speed Wraith and the XC is the 12 speed Teerex?



That description is close. The high speed portion of the XCaliber's flight is very similar to a good Teerex, but when it slows down it acts more like a Max. It has replaced my Teerex for the time being and I mainly throw it for forehand flat hyzer shots at 350 ft or so. The XCaliber also skips bigger than any disc Ive thrown. I almost aced a hole on the 2nd skip.

thanks Dave--In your testing, was the x-caliber much different than the destroyer? thx again



It was most similar to a good Pro Destroyer. It was very stable to overstable with significant glide. There must be some difference that I can't quite put my finger on, because I like the XCaliber, but didn't like the Pro Destroyer. It seems like the XCaliber is faster than the Pro Destroyer so that the over stability doesn't hurt its distance. Also, it seems as if the XCaliber travels upwind easier than the Pro Destroyer.

So the Destroyer is the 12 speed Wraith and the XC is the 12 speed Teerex?



That description is close. The high speed portion of the XCaliber's flight is very similar to a good Teerex, but when it slows down it acts more like a Max. It has replaced my Teerex for the time being and I mainly throw it for forehand flat hyzer shots at 350 ft or so. The XCaliber also skips bigger than any disc Ive thrown. I almost aced a hole on the 2nd skip.




Me want!!! Me want!!! Sounds like another winner Harold/Dave..

Josh

Hey Dave,

I was told you are the man to ask about innova plastic. I bought a used disc out here in Virginia and am having problems identifying it. It has the look of an oversized mid range driver, is made of a gummy transparent plastic that has orange, gold and a little green hue in it. It has a triple stamp, each stamp was square and says "Merry Chrismas 2004" top and "From Your Friends at Innova Champion Discs" bottom of the stamp. I really like the way it flies and would love to find some more. Thanks for any help and i will be happy to send you pics if that would be helpful

Arvid "RV" Englund

p.s. This is my first post on the PDGA site!!!

Welcome.

Hey Dave,

I was told you are the man to ask about innova plastic. I bought a used disc out here in Virginia and am having problems identifying it. It has the look of an oversized mid range driver, is made of a gummy transparent plastic that has orange, gold and a little green hue in it. It has a triple stamp, each stamp was square and says "Merry Chrismas 2004" top and "From Your Friends at Innova Champion Discs" bottom of the stamp. I really like the way it flies and would love to find some more. Thanks for any help and i will be happy to send you pics if that would be helpful

Arvid "RV" Englund

p.s. This is my first post on the PDGA site!!!



I would need to see the rim of the disc to tell, but it might be a Sidewinder or Orc. They were both released around 2004.

Dave ... HUGE THANKS for bringing back the San Marino mold. I absolutely love this Roc.
I have been laid up for over 3 months (with a broken leg, from disc golfing), and it's been a challenge to stay psyched about playing and a challenge getting my leg back in shape to play. I've been able to putt for a month or so, but this past weekend was the first time I have been out on a course in over 12 weeks.
I can't tell you how much fun I had throwing the San Marino Roc this weekend. Love the glide, and the control ... a really fun disc to throw ... makes me happy to be a disc golfer.

Hey Dave,

I was told you are the man to ask about innova plastic. I bought a used disc out here in Virginia and am having problems identifying it. It has the look of an oversized mid range driver, is made of a gummy transparent plastic that has orange, gold and a little green hue in it. It has a triple stamp, each stamp was square and says "Merry Chrismas 2004" top and "From Your Friends at Innova Champion Discs" bottom of the stamp. I really like the way it flies and would love to find some more. Thanks for any help and i will be happy to send you pics if that would be helpful

Arvid "RV" Englund

p.s. This is my first post on the PDGA site!!!


The two 2004 Xmas discs I have are a yellow Ch. Sidewinder & a red QMS. Sounds more like the QMS.

Dave,
I recently was going through some of my older discs and found a classic roc from the mid-america open back in 2002 and i was wondering if you ever made this disc in CE platic because it is an orange opaque color and feels very much like CE plastic.

Dave,
I recently was going through some of my older discs and found a classic roc from the mid-america open back in 2002 and i was wondering if you ever made this disc in CE platic because it is an orange opaque color and feels very much like CE plastic.



I don't remember the run, but one of my associates tells me we ran them in the same CE plastic we ran the USDGC Rocs.

Dave,
I recently was going through some of my older discs and found a classic roc from the mid-america open back in 2002 and i was wondering if you ever made this disc in CE platic because it is an orange opaque color and feels very much like CE plastic.



I've got a pair of those classic rocs and love them both -- they seem to have a different shape than the newer champion classic rocs, and fly very differently. They are as you describe -- bright orange candy, the same color and feel as the 2002 USDGC Roc I have. So yes, they did make that disc in CE plastic as a fundraiser back in the day. I have one or two backups to the two that I throw, but could always use another if there is anything you are looking to trade it for, let me know.

i dont know if I want to trade anything for it yet because i lost my old milky white champion classic roc this weekend so im gonna need something to replace it so im going to try it out tonight and see how it works but if i decide not to keep it you will be the one i let know

i dont know if I want to trade anything for it yet because i lost my old milky white champion classic roc this weekend so im gonna need something to replace it so im going to try it out tonight and see how it works but if i decide not to keep it you will be the one i let know



If you like the current Champion Classic Rocs, I think I've got three opaque orange and one opaque pink one at home. Two are thrown, two are unthrown. I got several expecting them to throw like my 2002 CE ones, and they don't fly the same.

The newer Champion Classic Rocs fly dead straight and fight the wind better than the old CE ones. They also seem to handle a little more power. The trade-off seems to be a little less glide. I use my old ones almost exclusively for trouble shots in the woods, usually for flick anhyzers at crazy angles when I've gone off the fairway. I only use them off the teebox if the hole is straight as an arrow, downhill, with zero wind -- too flippy for anything else.

Anyway, if you don't like the CE one you found, but like the newer Champion CRs let me know. Have fun trying it out... oh, and I'm heading to Bowling Green tomorrow, so won't be on the message boards for a while after tonight. Bowling Green -whoop!

With all this talk about Classic Rocs I have to ask Dave -

Will the Star Classic Roc ever make it to the big time and be apart of the permanent line-up? As it stands, theres nothing in Star plastic at that speed and stability - the closest thing I can think of is the star rhyno, which happens to be about twice as tall. I have about six backup CRs in star, as it is my main putter, but would love to see this disc widely available!

With all this talk about Classic Rocs I have to ask Dave -

Will the Star Classic Roc ever make it to the big time and be apart of the permanent line-up? As it stands, theres nothing in Star plastic at that speed and stability - the closest thing I can think of is the star rhyno, which happens to be about twice as tall. I have about six backup CRs in star, as it is my main putter, but would love to see this disc widely available!



Star XDs might fit the bill.

Will the Star Classic Roc ever make it to the big time and be apart of the permanent line-up?



I would like to think so, but so far, there hasn't been sufficient demand.

What constitutes sufficient demand, what type of numbers does innova look at to help decide? How soon did the CFR Star CRs sell out? I hadn't seen any untill Jay Harbour of huklab started carrying them last summer, and they were gone pretty quick. I had the good fortune of playing against Stan Pratt at the southwest team tournament and he had a few still from the masters cup. I'll keep my fingers crossed in the meantime and start a poll thread about it...

I say mainstream the Rancho Roc to premium plastics. The time has come for goodness sake!!!

The last bunch of Ranchos I bought were all KC Pros. They fly wonderfully, but they all have huge chunks taken out of them already after a few rounds (north Texas clay and rocks are hard on discs). While this does not effect the flight, it is just annoying and unnecessary since their are perfectly wonderful plastics available.

I just do not understand why Innova throwers (not collectors) have to limp along on less than premium plastic for the most popular midrange in the game, while Discraft offers every disc they make in premium plastic (or will eventually). In fact, they make the BuzZz in MORE plastics than any other disc...

It seems in this case that Innova is looking over the heads of the players to collectors and fund raisers and Roc Hounds that lurk on Ebay buying discs like baseball cards.

While I respect Innova for their product, I do think this practice is counterproductive to the actual Joe Blow PLAYERS of the game, and certainly annoying to me personally.

I say FREE THE ROC!!!

anyone throw the 9x whippets?... any comparison to the much sought after champ or the star whippets?

If they released the Rancho Roc in premium plastic how would they raise money for the greatest Disc Golf tournament in the world? (imo) While I am not a USDGC partner and have a hard time getting the discs myself, I fully support the Status Quo.

And Yes PLEASE make the Star CR mainstream, especially since the Pro and Champion are now discontinued.

You've got a tough sell job on Dave. I tried to get the Classic Roc for the Worlds player packs last year with a 400 qty and no go. We got the anagram Cro which was their newer disc. We bought a bunch of Zeroline Spikes from Latitude 64 instead which flies the same and is in slightly softer plastic with gripper pads for putting. But I still throw the DX CR for approaching and Star would be nice.

If they released the Rancho Roc in premium plastic how would they raise money for the greatest Disc Golf tournament in the world? (imo)



CFR, TFR, USDGC or whatever the latest super wide winged ultra high speed high zoot gotta have it to be competitive distance driver... Make it the sole source of said driver and you are set!!! Ebay will be alight with activity!!! I can guarantee there would be paaaalllenty of demand...

I think you would have a hard time making the case that the only way to successful way to raise money for any tourney is to the sell the "good" Rocs.

As a relative newby to the USDGA, I just think the practice has been really overdone to the point that it has created its own industry that seems only to exist but to feed the COLLECTORS not the PLAYERS. Its a frisbee... not a moon ROCk. In fact, if a premium plastic Rancho Roc exists, I have never seen one in person. I certainly have never seen anyone playing with one (I have seen Ontario Rocs in premium plastics).

Free the "good" Roc, Dave. The Rancho has paid its dues... ;)

Either way, I appreciate your consideration. I am just throwing out my 2 cents. Which are worth about....2 cents...

I have a Champion Rancho in my bag, a F/S from last year's USDGC run. Got one, loved it (extremely predictable), and with a little creativity got three more for backup in the same size (175g) and color. Didn't break the bank to do so. A little initiative can go a long way.

Market forces exist and - so long as they keep working in this specific case - the USDGC gets well funded and does its part in pushing our pastime forward. No shame in that at all.

I say mainstream the Rancho Roc to premium plastics. The time has come for goodness sake!!!

The last bunch of Ranchos I bought were all KC Pros. They fly wonderfully, but they all have huge chunks taken out of them already after a few rounds (north Texas clay and rocks are hard on discs). While this does not effect the flight, it is just annoying and unnecessary since their are perfectly wonderful plastics available.

I just do not understand why Innova throwers (not collectors) have to limp along on less than premium plastic for the most popular midrange in the game, while Discraft offers every disc they make in premium plastic (or will eventually). In fact, they make the BuzZz in MORE plastics than any other disc...

It seems in this case that Innova is looking over the heads of the players to collectors and fund raisers and Roc Hounds that lurk on Ebay buying discs like baseball cards.

While I respect Innova for their product, I do think this practice is counterproductive to the actual Joe Blow PLAYERS of the game, and certainly annoying to me personally.

I say FREE THE ROC!!!



I feel comfortable saying that if you feel this strongly, you should be able to find a Champion Rancho for $25-30. Yes, this is the price of 2-3 other discs, but your desire for this disc clearly illustrates the demand driving up the cost. You must know someone who is a partner and will hook you up. Innova probably could charge more, and pocket the money instead of funding the USDGC.

I say mainstream the Rancho Roc to premium plastics. The time has come for goodness sake!!!

The star Cro has replaced the premium plastic Rocs in my bag. For my game it is a little more predictable with less glide and more speed and is much less affected by wind. I especially like my first run star cro that is a little on the softer side.

I say mainstream the Rancho Roc to premium plastics. The time has come for goodness sake!!!

The last bunch of Ranchos I bought were all KC Pros. They fly wonderfully, but they all have huge chunks taken out of them already after a few rounds (north Texas clay and rocks are hard on discs). While this does not effect the flight, it is just annoying and unnecessary since their are perfectly wonderful plastics available.

I just do not understand why Innova throwers (not collectors) have to limp along on less than premium plastic for the most popular midrange in the game, while Discraft offers every disc they make in premium plastic (or will eventually). In fact, they make the BuzZz in MORE plastics than any other disc...

It seems in this case that Innova is looking over the heads of the players to collectors and fund raisers and Roc Hounds that lurk on Ebay buying discs like baseball cards.

While I respect Innova for their product, I do think this practice is counterproductive to the actual Joe Blow PLAYERS of the game, and certainly annoying to me personally.

I say FREE THE ROC!!!



I feel comfortable saying that if you feel this strongly, you should be able to find a Champion Rancho for $25-30. Yes, this is the price of 2-3 other discs, but your desire for this disc clearly illustrates the demand driving up the cost. You must know someone who is a partner and will hook you up. Innova probably could charge more, and pocket the money instead of funding the USDGC.



Nah, I will just buy the $7 ones, and live with the dings...

I do not mind paying Star prices (I do not care for Champion), but I simply do not see spending $30 plus shipping for something that might end up in a drainage creek somewhere...

If the Rancho is never going to be mainstreamed to the best plastics, I would at least request that the KC Pro and DX plastic be improved. I know that I have seen 1990's era DX that was simply unbelievable. Tough, stiff, grippy especially in Rocs. More like old Discraft tourney plastic.

You know, you can get X-out or seconds of Champ and Star Rocs for far less money. That's what I do. They fly just the same as the expensive ones, only with a few cosmetic flaws. Add a little acetone and voila, you have a clean-looking disc!

You know, you can get X-out or seconds of Champ and Star Rocs for far less money. That's what I do. They fly just the same as the expensive ones, only with a few cosmetic flaws. Add a little acetone and voila, you have a clean-looking disc!



I do this too. Great way to get CH and Star plastic that you don't have to worry about.

You can pick up a perfectly good Star Rancho thrower for a few bucks more than (less than double) a Star Coyote.

Price of stamp flaw Star Rancho < 5 cheeseburgers
... < Use Your Illusion I & II
... < movie for 2 and popcorn
... < tank of gas

I have won champ rocs on ebay for 20 bucks brand new f/s you just have to know when to look. And they dont come around that often but I have at least won 10 like that at that price.

You can see pics of several F/S ROCs I have up for trade/sale at my website.

z

You know, you can get X-out or seconds of Champ and Star Rocs for far less money. That's what I do. They fly just the same as the expensive ones, only with a few cosmetic flaws. Add a little acetone and voila, you have a clean-looking disc!



I do this too. Great way to get CH and Star plastic that you don't have to worry about.



Please tell me where I can buy a Star Rancho X out. thanks!!!

Dave,
I was excited to read about the recycled STAR &amp; DX plastic that will be available shortly for XCalibers &amp; Aviars. It is really a step in the right direction to reconnecting the sport with its <font color="green">green</font> roots!

When/where shall I look for the green EcoSTAR XCalibers &amp; mocha EcoDX Aviars?

You know, you can get X-out or seconds of Champ and Star Rocs for far less money. That's what I do. They fly just the same as the expensive ones, only with a few cosmetic flaws. Add a little acetone and voila, you have a clean-looking disc!



I do this too. Great way to get CH and Star plastic that you don't have to worry about.



Please tell me where I can buy a Star Rancho X out. thanks!!!



zonedriven

Dave,
I was excited to read about the recycled STAR &amp; DX plastic that will be available shortly for XCalibers &amp; Aviars. It is really a step in the right direction to reconnecting the sport with its <font color="green">green</font> roots!

When/where shall I look for the green EcoSTAR XCalibers &amp; mocha EcoDX Aviars?



We just put out a monthly product update about the recycled plastic. I think we are going to call it Echo instead of Eco. We don't want to imply this is post consumer plastic. It is post production and reprocessed plastic that comes from discs that were too heavy, short shot, damaged, warped,returned, etc. The Echo discs will be from 50% to 100% reprocessed Echo/Eco material depending on model. This large amount of reprocessed use is different from the normal use of a much smaller amount of regrind, which we have done in the past. All should be available through regular distribution over time. We haven't decided on a way to differentiate the Echo plastic from regular, yet, (except by color).

You know, you can get X-out or seconds of Champ and Star Rocs for far less money. That's what I do. They fly just the same as the expensive ones, only with a few cosmetic flaws. Add a little acetone and voila, you have a clean-looking disc!



I do this too. Great way to get CH and Star plastic that you don't have to worry about.



Please tell me where I can buy a Star Rancho X out. thanks!!!



zonedriven



Zonedriven does show any X-outs available.

http://www.zonedriven.com/proshop/index.php?p=catalog&amp;parent=95&amp;pg=1
X-outs (http://www.zonedriven.com/proshop/index.php?p=catalog&amp;parent=95&amp;pg=1)

Nice.
Quote from the Zonedriven shop:

Model availability is updated regularly in the "Shop Talk" section of the main ZoneDriven site. Please be sure to include the model in the comments section of your order.


The "Factory Seconds Inventory" in "Shop Talk" was last updated May 5th, 2007.

08's should be out soon (USDGC Rocs), and so too will the F/S. (I assume)

Dave, what bout an additional "Eco/Echo/Green" Hot stamp added to those discs. Like say a tree in the background. Or a bottom stamp. Don't feel obligated to send a commission :)

Dave, are you re-pelletizing your regrind? Or just drying and re-using it?

Around the time these come out every year you can easily get a F/S for $20, the price jumps to $30 6-8 months later.

You can just as easily wait for the following years release though and get the new F/S for $20 again. It's not rocket science, USDGC's fundraising doesn't get hurt this way and if you pay attention you can easily get F/S's every summer.

Dave, are you re-pelletizing your regrind? Or just drying and re-using it?



The reprocessing for Star includes sorting, cleaning/detagging, grinding, batch blending, repelletizing, drying, then using.
We can and do sometimes use a small amount of dried regrind, (that hasn't been reprocessed), but that is problematic. Cosmetic issues as well as powdery residue from regrind, make things difficult. Reprocessing costs more to do, but yields better results. DX reprocessing is easier to do, but still needs to be sorted, blended, and repelletized. Contamination is the chief pitfall for the reprocessing.

Hey Dave....

Can you enlighten me on the XCaliber....... ;)

When is it suppossed to be PDGA Approved?? or is it now??

Mine are on the way........ :D

Hey Dave....

Can you enlighten me on the XCaliber....... ;)

When is it suppossed to be PDGA Approved?? or is it now??

Mine are on the way........ :D



It was approved over a couple of weeks ago. We just hadn't done a general release until last friday.

Hey Dave....

Can you enlighten me on the XCaliber....... ;)

When is it suppossed to be PDGA Approved?? or is it now??

Mine are on the way........ :D



It was approved over a couple of weeks ago. We just hadn't done a general release until last friday.



When will we see this in Champ Plastic??

Are the protos "Star" or "Ec(H)o"??

Se Ya in Santa Cruz??

:D

Hey Dave....

Can you enlighten me on the XCaliber....... ;)

When is it suppossed to be PDGA Approved?? or is it now??

Mine are on the way........ :D



It was approved over a couple of weeks ago. We just hadn't done a general release until last friday.



When will we see this in Champ Plastic??

Are the protos "Star" or "Ec(H)o"??

Se Ya in Santa Cruz??

:D



The first run is in both Star and Echo Star. We will run Champion when we can, (no Echo Champion). See you at the Cruz.

Will the Champion XCaliber be CFR or Regular Production?

Will the Champion XCaliber be CFR or Regular Production?



Don't know yet.

so there is no post consumer waste? it seems like it would make sense to re use this plastic anyway. i just assumed all companies did this already. will you ever be able to recycle old discs, and actually be able to reduce the amount of waste involved in this process? this is definately a step in the right direction, it would just be nice to see the stacks and stacks at play it again, and in all of our basements, be reprocessed into new. it would also be nice if you could find some sort of recycled plastic to use in your discs, even if it were a tiny amount. id like to know that all these soda bottles and plastic bags could be put to a good use. the world knows we dont need to be making more and more plastic products.

I've got a bunch of bags of empty water bottles in my garage, anyway you guys could recycle and mold me some rocs out of that? They would be great fundraisers for my tourney :p

Dave,
I have a Glow Aviar I picked up probably 3 years ago and it has 2 rings around the nipple on the bottom side, very gummy, and the stamp is in the center. I have looked for more of these but cannot seem to find any. I was wondering what run it is and how could I aquire more? I have ordered others just thinking it was a regular glow Aviar but the one's I have ordered only have one ring around the nipple and are not as gummy.

I've got a bunch of bags of empty water bottles in my garage, anyway you guys could recycle and mold me some rocs out of that? They would be great fundraisers for my tourney :p



We could do something like that, but the resulting product would be less than DX quality. It would have to be mixed with new plastic to have a shot at being adequate. The hardest thing to do would be to collect, store, and sort, before sending it out to be reprocessed. It would be much easier to buy post consumer plastic from another source. Contamination would still be an issue.

Dave,
I have a Glow Aviar I picked up probably 3 years ago and it has 2 rings around the nipple on the bottom side, very gummy, and the stamp is in the center. I have looked for more of these but cannot seem to find any. I was wondering what run it is and how could I aquire more? I have ordered others just thinking it was a regular glow Aviar but the one's I have ordered only have one ring around the nipple and are not as gummy.



I don't know what run it is from. The number of rings in the center is irrelevant, unless it is one big one. That would be from the original two cavity mold. Since then, we have used both cores in a single mold configuration. One mold has been repaired, and one hasn't. We still use both.

Dave,
I have a Glow Aviar I picked up probably 3 years ago and it has 2 rings around the nipple on the bottom side, very gummy, and the stamp is in the center. I have looked for more of these but cannot seem to find any. I was wondering what run it is and how could I aquire more? I have ordered others just thinking it was a regular glow Aviar but the one's I have ordered only have one ring around the nipple and are not as gummy.



I don't know what run it is from. The number of rings in the center is irrelevant, unless it is one big one. That would be from the original two cavity mold. Since then, we have used both cores in a single mold configuration. One mold has been repaired, and one hasn't. We still use both.



The inner ring is 1 inch in dia. and the outer ring is 1.75 in in dia.
The disc I am describing does have the San Marino location stamped on the inner where the newer ones i have purchased do not have a location stamped on them. The disc i'm trying to describe seems to have a lower profile. It had a foil stamp and was silver.

Hey dave,
Has Innova considered making a new line that would compete with discrafts FLX plastic?

Gummy STAR already does, and gummy Champion is even better. You just need to pick through the stacks until you find them . . .

Ya but to get gummy champion you have to buy 150 class discs and im not throwing that. And gummy star is nothing compared to FLX plastic as far as FLX goes.

Yea I'd love to have some drivers I can throw on wooded holes without ricochet.

There was talk of a "Champion Epic" on the disc golf review forum. Any info on this? Is it real? They said is was going to be a pure thumber disc. Thanks Dave

Dave,
I have a Glow Aviar I picked up probably 3 years ago and it has 2 rings around the nipple on the bottom side, very gummy, and the stamp is in the center. I have looked for more of these but cannot seem to find any. I was wondering what run it is and how could I aquire more? I have ordered others just thinking it was a regular glow Aviar but the one's I have ordered only have one ring around the nipple and are not as gummy.




I don't know what run it is from. The number of rings in the center is irrelevant, unless it is one big one. That would be from the original two cavity mold. Since then, we have used both cores in a single mold configuration. One mold has been repaired, and one hasn't. We still use both.



The inner ring is 1 inch in dia. and the outer ring is 1.75 in in dia.
The disc I am describing does have the San Marino location stamped on the inner where the newer ones i have purchased do not have a location stamped on them. The disc i'm trying to describe seems to have a lower profile. It had a foil stamp and was silver.



I think I have found it. Correct me if you think I'm wrong but I'm thinking Small Bead San Marino Aviar Glow. Could you possibly tell me a little about the disc?

There was talk of a "Champion Epic" on the disc golf review forum. Any info on this? Is it real? They said is was going to be a pure thumber disc. Thanks Dave



Not real.

Dave,
I have a Glow Aviar I picked up probably 3 years ago and it has 2 rings around the nipple on the bottom side, very gummy, and the stamp is in the center. I have looked for more of these but cannot seem to find any. I was wondering what run it is and how could I aquire more? I have ordered others just thinking it was a regular glow Aviar but the one's I have ordered only have one ring around the nipple and are not as gummy.




I don't know what run it is from. The number of rings in the center is irrelevant, unless it is one big one. That would be from the original two cavity mold. Since then, we have used both cores in a single mold configuration. One mold has been repaired, and one hasn't. We still use both.



The inner ring is 1 inch in dia. and the outer ring is 1.75 in in dia.
The disc I am describing does have the San Marino location stamped on the inner where the newer ones i have purchased do not have a location stamped on them. The disc i'm trying to describe seems to have a lower profile. It had a foil stamp and was silver.



I think I have found it. Correct me if you think I'm wrong but I'm thinking Small Bead San Marino Aviar Glow. Could you possibly tell me a little about the disc?



I don't know what to tell at this point. If you want to replace the disc at this point, you are going to have to ask on line. You are describing an Omega SS, I believe. I don't remember making them in glow plastic though. Omega SS is a small bead low profile extra soft putter.

I've got a bunch of bags of empty water bottles in my garage, anyway you guys could recycle and mold me some rocs out of that? They would be great fundraisers for my tourney :p



We could do something like that, but the resulting product would be less than DX quality. It would have to be mixed with new plastic to have a shot at being adequate. The hardest thing to do would be to collect, store, and sort, before sending it out to be reprocessed. It would be much easier to buy post consumer plastic from another source. Contamination would still be an issue.



Would this method offer any difference cosmetically in the way the discs would look, or even how they would feel compared to standard DX plastic?

I've got a bunch of bags of empty water bottles in my garage, anyway you guys could recycle and mold me some rocs out of that? They would be great fundraisers for my tourney :p



We could do something like that, but the resulting product would be less than DX quality. It would have to be mixed with new plastic to have a shot at being adequate. The hardest thing to do would be to collect, store, and sort, before sending it out to be reprocessed. It would be much easier to buy post consumer plastic from another source. Contamination would still be an issue.



Would this method offer any difference cosmetically in the way the discs would look, or even how they would feel compared to standard DX plastic?



It could be difficult to make them cosmetically perfect, fly right, or feel right. That's where mixing of other plastic would come in.

Dave,
I have a Glow Aviar I picked up probably 3 years ago and it has 2 rings around the nipple on the bottom side, very gummy, and the stamp is in the center. I have looked for more of these but cannot seem to find any. I was wondering what run it is and how could I aquire more? I have ordered others just thinking it was a regular glow Aviar but the one's I have ordered only have one ring around the nipple and are not as gummy.



I don't know what run it is from. The number of rings in the center is irrelevant, unless it is one big one. That would be from the original two cavity mold. Since then, we have used both cores in a single mold configuration. One mold has been repaired, and one hasn't. We still use both.



The inner ring is 1 inch in dia. and the outer ring is 1.75 in in dia.
The disc I am describing does have the San Marino location stamped on the inner where the newer ones i have purchased do not have a location stamped on them. The disc i'm trying to describe seems to have a lower profile. It had a foil stamp and was silver.



I'm glad you're asking about this... I was just talking about this the other day w/ someone from Innova East. I have 2 JK5x that are really gummy and have the 2 rings and different wording on the inside.. like yours. And I have several other JK 5xs that have only 1 ring and the wording like you describe on the newer onces.

I did find an old 3x JK that looked exactly like the inside of the 2 5x's I was wondering about (w/ 2 rings).

any clue on that Dave?

I think I have found it. Correct me if you think I'm wrong but I'm thinking Small Bead San Marino Aviar Glow. Could you possibly tell me a little about the disc?




Not to be a wise a** but ....
Its a San Marino Glow Aviar

I have a couple, same thing 2 ring /center stamp Silver and a Rainbow, maybe run a few years ago. The plastic was softer/gummier than normal. I think it was just that particular run. I use mine as my flippy/touch shot putter. Very nice disc great for jump putts. Too bad the new ones are so stiff.

I think I have found it. Correct me if you think I'm wrong but I'm thinking Small Bead San Marino Aviar Glow. Could you possibly tell me a little about the disc?




Not to be a wise a** but ....
Its a San Marino Glow Aviar

I have a couple, same thing 2 ring /center stamp Silver and a Rainbow, maybe run a few years ago. The plastic was softer/gummier than normal. I think it was just that particular run. I use mine as my flippy/touch shot putter. Very nice disc great for jump putts. Too bad the new ones are so stiff.



Yea, I was at doubles the this evening and had some knowledgeable people take a look at it and it's just a glow San Marino Aviar no bead. Where can I find more that are that soft? I have went thru stacks and stacks at home and came across 1 other glow, but has a different hot stamp in the lower corner and 3 more in the DX. I use them for almost everything besides in the wind. 280ft and in slow turn

any ideas about why the 5x JKs are so different w/ the 2 rings and different wording stamped on the underside?

any ideas about why the 5x JKs are so different w/ the 2 rings and different wording stamped on the underside?



Different material probably.

interesting.. thanks dave.

so when we are buying discs of the same mold/plastic and want to find ones that will hopefully be similar or the same are these things we should look for? rings on the bottom... stamp wording underneath, etc?

thanks for the replies!

interesting.. thanks dave.

so when we are buying discs of the same mold/plastic and want to find ones that will hopefully be similar or the same are these things we should look for? rings on the bottom... stamp wording underneath, etc?

thanks for the replies!



Yes, those are some of the things you can look for, but just as important is the shape and feel. With the same mold and supposedly same material from the supplier, different variations can happen.

I have some of the 5X JK's also with the 2 rings.
I have found that I really like the Aviars with the rings, Glow, 5X's, Brick
I contacted a seller on Ebay and he stated that there are some San Marino Aviar's with 3 rings and they go for around $100 unthrown. I haven't found any of these but would really like to feel one, but I wouldn't pay more than $25 for a putter.

Dave, I bought a few of those new 1st run X-calibers, but one of them is marked on the back with a "DS" instead of "XC"... We thought it might be a 1st run star destroyer, so we held up a star destroyer next to the X-calibers and the "DS" disc looked just like an X-caliber, having a more blunt edge. Plus we were wondering what the odds were of getting 1st run Star Destroyer in a batch of X-calibers...

Just wondering if there is a reason or if it was a mistake.....

Thanks :cool:

Dave, I bought a few of those new 1st run X-calibers, but one of them is marked on the back with a "DS" instead of "XC"... We thought it might be a 1st run star destroyer, so we held up a star destroyer next to the X-calibers and the "DS" disc looked just like an X-caliber, having a more blunt edge. Plus we were wondering what the odds were of getting 1st run Star Destroyer in a batch of X-calibers...

Just wondering if there is a reason or if it was a mistake.....

Thanks :cool:



It was just the guy at the machine putting the wrong mark on until he was told different. I think they were green too. Not sure.

Thats the one, kind of a light forest green color

Thanks

hey dave,
does the original whippet mold still exist? if so, any chance of a run of them in fancy plastic? thanks.

hey dave,
does the original whippet mold still exist? if so, any chance of a run of them in fancy plastic? thanks.



The original doesn't exist, but the retooled Whippet and Whippet X still do.

Dave, thank you! A friend and I stumbled onto a small pile of Excalibers at a sporting goods store in Fresno. We each bought one to try out. An amazing round later, we returned to that store and quite selfishly bought all of the Excalibers they had. I loved the disc so much that I decided no one else around here could have one.

Dave, Are regular production xcalibers going to be available anytime soon?

Dave, Are regular production xcalibers going to be available anytime soon?



They should already be available.

Champion xc or champ glow xc?

Hey Dave,
With all the re-issueing of the old roc molds is there anyway to remake the 10X KC Roc? I know it is a Rancho mold but they fly different then the current KCs. Would a stiff Star Ontario fly similar, or could you mold a new Sanny or Ontario in the current KC Plastic. That would be an awesome fundraiser disc. I just love the feel and flight of the 10X but they are impossible to find anymore.
Cheers,
Matt

mr Dave. which is more overstable or more likely to fight a headwind. a champoin wraith or a star wraith

Dave, I bought a few of those new 1st run X-calibers, but one of them is marked on the back with a "DS" instead of "XC"... We thought it might be a 1st run star destroyer, so we held up a star destroyer next to the X-calibers and the "DS" disc looked just like an X-caliber, having a more blunt edge. Plus we were wondering what the odds were of getting 1st run Star Destroyer in a batch of X-calibers...

Just wondering if there is a reason or if it was a mistake.....

Thanks :cool:



It was just the guy at the machine putting the wrong mark on until he was told different. I think they were green too. Not sure.



I thought these were the "Eco" version? Is this true or just a rumor?

Champion xc or champ glow xc?



Star for now. Champion later.

I have an eco xc marked xc

mr Dave. which is more overstable or more likely to fight a headwind. a champoin wraith or a star wraith



From my experience, a Champion Wraith.

Hey Dave,
With all the re-issueing of the old roc molds is there anyway to remake the 10X KC Roc? I know it is a Rancho mold but they fly different then the current KCs. Would a stiff Star Ontario fly similar, or could you mold a new Sanny or Ontario in the current KC Plastic. That would be an awesome fundraiser disc. I just love the feel and flight of the 10X but they are impossible to find anymore.
Cheers,
Matt



I think a San Marino is what you are looking for in flight. Material is a different issue. So far, the DX is the only mainstream offering and they are fairly stiff. Star and Champion San Marinos will be available for the USDGC Rocs. Also, there will be X parts and double stamps.

Dave, I bought a few of those new 1st run X-calibers, but one of them is marked on the back with a "DS" instead of "XC"... We thought it might be a 1st run star destroyer, so we held up a star destroyer next to the X-calibers and the "DS" disc looked just like an X-caliber, having a more blunt edge. Plus we were wondering what the odds were of getting 1st run Star Destroyer in a batch of X-calibers...

Just wondering if there is a reason or if it was a mistake.....

Thanks :cool:



It was just the guy at the machine putting the wrong mark on until he was told different. I think they were green too. Not sure.



I thought these were the "Eco" version? Is this true or just a rumor?



True

Dave... possible interesting one here...

I have a roc w/ absolutely no marking on it at all... no stamp or even a ghost trace of one on the front... and no 'rancho, ontario, patent, etc' underneath... nothing and no sign of any of this being removed or taken off.

only marking is pen '179' on the bottom.

The plastic is white and feels the same as an old leopard (w/ the barstamp logo) that I have... white... really grippy feeling.

Any idea on this?

Dave... possible interesting one here...

I have a roc w/ absolutely no marking on it at all... no stamp or even a ghost trace of one on the front... and no 'rancho, ontario, patent, etc' underneath... nothing and no sign of any of this being removed or taken off.

only marking is pen '179' on the bottom.

The plastic is white and feels the same as an old leopard (w/ the barstamp logo) that I have... white... really grippy feeling.

Any idea on this?



Possibly a Super Roc if not DX, otherwise color process white. I don't know why there is no marking or vestige of one.

Hey Dave,

I have a commemorative set of World's Biggest discs that are the first 10 years of World's Biggest stamps and they all have a special gold stamp around the original stamps that say "1992-2001 - 10 Years of World's Biggest."

Would you have any idea how many sets of these were made? Would the set be worth more now than the $70 retail price when I won them in 2001? I believe that the '92 &amp; '93 stamped discs are San Marino Rocs, if that matters.

Thanks for any info you can provide!

Dave... possible interesting one here...

I have a roc w/ absolutely no marking on it at all... no stamp or even a ghost trace of one on the front... and no 'rancho, ontario, patent, etc' underneath... nothing and no sign of any of this being removed or taken off.

only marking is pen '179' on the bottom.

The plastic is white and feels the same as an old leopard (w/ the barstamp logo) that I have... white... really grippy feeling.

Any idea on this?



Possibly a Super Roc if not DX, otherwise color process white. I don't know why there is no marking or vestige of one.



so not a proto roc or anything? ;) I thought it was extremely odd that there wasnt any markings or sign of them being cut/scratched/etc off since i thought those were part of the mold and didnt think it was physically possible to run a disc w/o them.

I'd def. say this isn't DX plastic cause this is nothing like DX feel and it looks like its seen its share of throws but there aren't any DX type of dings... mostly 'champ' type of wear... scratches/etc.

there's lots of guys that know their discs around here so i'll pass it around and have some people see if they can get guess where its from and possible age/mold (compared it to a newer 'ching' and the re-run of the ontario glo and its not quite the same as those 2)

Dave... possible interesting one here...

I have a roc w/ absolutely no marking on it at all... no stamp or even a ghost trace of one on the front... and no 'rancho, ontario, patent, etc' underneath... nothing and no sign of any of this being removed or taken off.

only marking is pen '179' on the bottom.

The plastic is white and feels the same as an old leopard (w/ the barstamp logo) that I have... white... really grippy feeling.

Any idea on this?



Possibly a Super Roc if not DX, otherwise color process white. I don't know why there is no marking or vestige of one.



so not a proto roc or anything? ;) I thought it was extremely odd that there wasnt any markings or sign of them being cut/scratched/etc off since i thought those were part of the mold and didnt think it was physically possible to run a disc w/o them.

I'd def. say this isn't DX plastic cause this is nothing like DX feel and it looks like its seen its share of throws but there aren't any DX type of dings... mostly 'champ' type of wear... scratches/etc.

there's lots of guys that know their discs around here so i'll pass it around and have some people see if they can get guess where its from and possible age/mold (compared it to a newer 'ching' and the re-run of the ontario glo and its not quite the same as those 2)



I would have to agree with Dave that you have a "Super Roc" from the 1st yrs. I recieved 20 of them with a tournament order many yrs ago. MOST had the Innova Bar Stamp BUT 2 of them were BLANK. The blanks were White but there were Yellow ones as well.
Id say the plastic was more similar to the original "Special Blend" but REAL "poppy"

:D

Hey Dave,

I have a commemorative set of World's Biggest discs that are the first 10 years of World's Biggest stamps and they all have a special gold stamp around the original stamps that say "1992-2001 - 10 Years of World's Biggest."

Would you have any idea how many sets of these were made? Would the set be worth more now than the $70 retail price when I won them in 2001? I believe that the '92 &amp; '93 stamped discs are San Marino Rocs, if that matters.

Thanks for any info you can provide!



Sorry, I don't know much about the collector market. However, if you do have original San Marinos, you definitely have something. You might try asking Mark at discgolfvalues.com. He deals with the collector market quite a bit.

Dave,

let me just say the destroyer and the xcaliber are GREAT discs and have added a 1st advanced win to my bag. Are there any putter type discs on the list for newbies....an understable putter....just wondering keep up the AWESOME WORK and I know there is plenty of it :D

Dave,

Are all the green Xcalibers Echo? If not how can we tell which is star and which is echo?

Thanks in advance for your time.

Are there any putter type discs on the list for newbies....an understable putter....just wondering keep up the AWESOME WORK and I know there is plenty of it :D



try one of the bottom stamped aviars. its beadless and understable. I have one worked in and its a great gentle turner :cool:

Dave,

let me just say the destroyer and the xcaliber are GREAT discs and have added a 1st advanced win to my bag. Are there any putter type discs on the list for newbies....an understable putter....just wondering keep up the AWESOME WORK and I know there is plenty of it :D



The Sonic would be the best best for newbies. Less stable than an Aviar and slightly larger. 177g max

Dave,

Are all the green Xcalibers Echo? If not how can we tell which is star and which is echo?

Thanks in advance for your time.



Right now, the only way to tell is by color. The Echo is shades of green from teal to mint.

Dave,

Are all the green Xcalibers Echo? If not how can we tell which is star and which is echo?

Thanks in advance for your time.



Right now, the only way to tell is by color. The Echo is shades of green from teal to mint.



So are all green Xcalibers the Echos plastic??

Can someone post a pic of a ECO so we can compare........I'm a visual person :D

Dave,

Are all the green Xcalibers Echo? If not how can we tell which is star and which is echo?

Thanks in advance for your time.



Right now, the only way to tell is by color. The Echo is shades of green from teal to mint.



So are all green Xcalibers the Echos plastic??



Yes, they should be; unless one of the molders gets creative without authorization.

Dave,

Are all the green Xcalibers Echo? If not how can we tell which is star and which is echo?

Thanks in advance for your time.



Right now, the only way to tell is by color. The Echo is shades of green from teal to mint.



So are all green Xcalibers the Echos plastic??



Yes, they should be; unless one of the molders gets creative without authorization.



How about the day glow green? My local shop has a bunch of them set aside thinking that they are echo, but to me they looked and felt like regular star.

Dave,
I may have missed it but there are a lot of posts on this thread to read through.

Can and will the XCaliber be run in weights lighter than 170g?

Thanks.

Can someone post a pic of a ECO so we can compare........I'm a visual person :D



And where do you get em'........not you dave you just go to the press :D...but you know normal folks.....well ok not totaly normal :cool:

Can someone post a pic of a ECO so we can compare........I'm a visual person :D



And where do you get em'........not you dave you just go to the press :D...but you know normal folks.....well ok not totaly normal :cool:



You can get some from me either at Pauls Valley this weekend or online after this weekend if I have any left.

Dave,

Are all the green Xcalibers Echo? If not how can we tell which is star and which is echo?

Thanks in advance for your time.



Right now, the only way to tell is by color. The Echo is shades of green from teal to mint.



So are all green Xcalibers the Echos plastic??



Yes, they should be; unless one of the molders gets creative without authorization.



How about the day glow green? My local shop has a bunch of them set aside thinking that they are echo, but to me they looked and felt like regular star.



If you mean chartreuse (green tinted yellow), they are not Echo. The green, which was a medium green was mixed with a few other colors, but wouldn't make chartreuse. There were mint green, army green, teal green, nile green, forest green, etc.

Dave,
I may have missed it but there are a lot of posts on this thread to read through.

Can and will the XCaliber be run in weights lighter than 170g?

Not unless we can get some lighter plastic. I do have two that are 169g but they are rare.

Thanks.

Can someone post a pic of a ECO so we can compare........I'm a visual person :D



http://www.innovadiscs.com/images/EcoXCaliber.jpg

Can someone post a pic of a ECO so we can compare........I'm a visual person :D



http://www.innovadiscs.com/images/EcoXCaliber.jpg



OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOH! Green...now I get it! lol :D

Dave, could you give me the background on the QMS that Vegan Ray mentioned a few pages back in reference to the 04 Champ Christmas disc? I have never heard of one, is it a midrange? KP

Dave, could you give me the background on the QMS that Vegan Ray mentioned a few pages back in reference to the 04 Champ Christmas disc? I have never heard of one, is it a midrange? KP



First of all, as you may or may not know, Innova designs Millenium's discs. If Innova were a rock band, these discs would be "B" sides, worth releasing but not necessarily fitting into Innova's lineup. Anyway, the QMS is a CE/Champion plastic version of the Aurora MS (Mid Straight). The MS mold is essentially a Roc without the bead. I also believe that this is the oldest Millenium mold, and it has a longer history, but Dave will have to chime in there b/c I don't remember.

Dave, a number of my discs are marked by the factory with a wt. 2-5g lighter than when I put those badboys on my triple beam ( I weigh out plant matter for nutritionl purposes only ). I mention this because as time passes I require the lighter wts. for my drives to compete with these young guns out there. I guess 2g either way shouldn't matter, but since much of this sport is having confidence in your plastic, is there any way to tighten up quality control on the people who mark the discs? "If it ain't Innova, it's just a hunk of plastic"

Dave, I felt the Echo plastic for the 1st time yesterday at a tournament. While the XCaliber is more disc than I really need, I was wondering if this plastic will be used for any other discs (teebird and valkyrie come to mind for me)?

First of all, as you may or may not know... but Dave will have to chime in there b/c I don't remember.


Yeah an accurate answer might be interesting. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Dave, could you give me the background on the QMS that Vegan Ray mentioned a few pages back in reference to the 04 Champ Christmas disc? I have never heard of one, is it a midrange? KP



First of all, as you may or may not know, Innova designs Millenium's discs. If Innova were a rock band, these discs would be "B" sides, worth releasing but not necessarily fitting into Innova's lineup. Anyway, the QMS is a CE/Champion plastic version of the Aurora MS (Mid Straight). The MS mold is essentially a Roc without the bead. I also believe that this is the oldest Millenium mold, and it has a longer history, but Dave will have to chime in there b/c I don't remember.



The Tachyon was the first Millenium disc.

Dave, a number of my discs are marked by the factory with a wt. 2-5g lighter than when I put those badboys on my triple beam ( I weigh out plant matter for nutritionl purposes only ). I mention this because as time passes I require the lighter wts. for my drives to compete with these young guns out there. I guess 2g either way shouldn't matter, but since much of this sport is having confidence in your plastic, is there any way to tighten up quality control on the people who mark the discs? "If it ain't Innova, it's just a hunk of plastic"



The weighing inaccuracies are a constant problem. Fans blowing through the hot factory, scale inaccuracies, operator mistakes, and water gain after production all contribute. We have QC people checking, but they can't catch all the errors, and unfortunately there are a significant number of them. We tried electronic scales, but they were worse than the triple beams.

Dave, I felt the Echo plastic for the 1st time yesterday at a tournament. While the XCaliber is more disc than I really need, I was wondering if this plastic will be used for any other discs (teebird and valkyrie come to mind for me)?



Yes, we will use it for many other models when it is available and when we can.

Will it be known as like Echo XCaliburs, or Echo TeeBirds, etc etc or still Star?

Will it be known as like Echo XCaliburs, or Echo TeeBirds, etc etc or still Star?



We will try to identify the Echo Stars with an E on the bottom.

Will it be known as like Echo XCaliburs, or Echo TeeBirds, etc etc or still Star?



We will try to identify the Echo Stars with an E on the bottom.




I saw a Innova Star stamped Proto MS this weekend and am just wondering when and how many of these were made.

Will it be known as like Echo XCaliburs, or Echo TeeBirds, etc etc or still Star?



We will try to identify the Echo Stars with an E on the bottom.




I saw a Innova Star stamped Proto MS this weekend and am just wondering when and how many of these were made.



No clue.

Dave, I felt the Echo plastic for the 1st time yesterday at a tournament. While the XCaliber is more disc than I really need, I was wondering if this plastic will be used for any other discs (teebird and valkyrie come to mind for me)?



Yes, we will use it for many other models when it is available and when we can.



I know that the XCaliber and USDGC San Marino Roc have been run in Echo. Do you have any of this plastic left for other molds, and any ideas on which discs would be next (Valkyries would be terrific!)

Hi Dave,

Are the new San Marino Rocs only being made at 180 grams? (That's all I've come across online so far) If so, any plans to run in lighter weights?

Dave, I felt the Echo plastic for the 1st time yesterday at a tournament. While the XCaliber is more disc than I really need, I was wondering if this plastic will be used for any other discs (teebird and valkyrie come to mind for me)?



Yes, we will use it for many other models when it is available and when we can.



I know that the XCaliber and USDGC San Marino Roc have been run in Echo. Do you have any of this plastic left for other molds, and any ideas on which discs would be next (Valkyries would be terrific!)



This plastic will be available on a limited basis from now on. Wraiths are being run with it now. Leopards will be up fairly soon. Valks aren't scheduled yet. We will eventually get to most of our models.

Eco san marino roc is for usdgc only right?

Hi Dave,

Are the new San Marino Rocs only being made at 180 grams? (That's all I've come across online so far) If so, any plans to run in lighter weights?



They are in weights down to 165 to 169 gms in DX. We will run 150 class in the future.

Eco san marino roc is for usdgc only right?



Yes

Dave, I felt the Echo plastic for the 1st time yesterday at a tournament. While the XCaliber is more disc than I really need, I was wondering if this plastic will be used for any other discs (teebird and valkyrie come to mind for me)?



Yes, we will use it for many other models when it is available and when we can.



I know that the XCaliber and USDGC San Marino Roc have been run in Echo. Do you have any of this plastic left for other molds, and any ideas on which discs would be next (Valkyries would be terrific!)



This plastic will be available on a limited basis from now on. Wraiths are being run with it now. Leopards will be up fairly soon. Valks aren't scheduled yet. We will eventually get to most of our models.



Echo leopards would be tasty! Nice going dave, I really like the feeling of that plastic.

Hello Dave,
I ran into a few interesting discs today. I found a KC Roc with no "Ken Climo 12x" lettering near the bottom. It felt like the 12x run, definitely a recent run. Are you not including that information on the stamp anymore? I also found a Star Cro with the DX stamp. It was not the first run stamp, but the same exact stamp that is on the DX. Are all Star Cros going to have this? Will this be expanded to other Star discs?

Thanks for your time!

Hello Dave,
I ran into a few interesting discs today. I found a KC Roc with no "Ken Climo 12x" lettering near the bottom. It felt like the 12x run, definitely a recent run. Are you not including that information on the stamp anymore? I also found a Star Cro with the DX stamp. It was not the first run stamp, but the same exact stamp that is on the DX. Are all Star Cros going to have this? Will this be expanded to other Star discs?

Thanks for your time!



The KC Roc still says "Twelve Time" in the ring. There was a time when we didn't include it, but we do now. The Cro hot stamp was a hot stamper goof.

The Cro hot stamp was a hot stamper goof.



Keep em' coming. ;)

Nobody doesn't like that Cro stamp!

Go Dead Bird!

Hi Dave, Thanks again for being so generous with all your info.
In order to get the flight characteristics of a new disc, do several people throw the disc and give their input? Or do you use a "throwing machine" to get more accurate data? Also, since you've designed so many discs over the years, can you predict with surety how the disc will perform before it's ever thrown? Thanks

Hi Dave, Thanks again for being so generous with all your info.
In order to get the flight characteristics of a new disc, do several people throw the disc and give their input? Or do you use a "throwing machine" to get more accurate data? Also, since you've designed so many discs over the years, can you predict with surety how the disc will perform before it's ever thrown? Thanks



aka... how will a disc fly if you put a flexible membrane on the underside thus creating a disc without an indent on the bottom ;)

Ha ha!

Hi Dave, Thanks again for being so generous with all your info.
In order to get the flight characteristics of a new disc, do several people throw the disc and give their input? Or do you use a "throwing machine" to get more accurate data? Also, since you've designed so many discs over the years, can you predict with surety how the disc will perform before it's ever thrown? Thanks



We don't use a throwing machine. I throw the disc myself along with 3 former PDGA Golf Champions, as well as a few friends. Most of the feedback we get has to do with how the disc flies for them. We already know the flight characteristic when Steve Wisecup and I throw it. Having said that, many times the numbers don't quite match what we see as the high speed or low speed fade falls in between numbers.

I do design for a certain flight characteristic, but you can never tell exactly as the particular materials and molding conditions can make a big difference in the outcome. We try to do the test in a material that we will be producing the disc in.

Thanks Dave

Hey Dave! Question, I've seen quite a few colored and marbled 12x KC Rocs around in the last month or two. Are you going to be making 12x KC Rocs in colors now, or are these colored Rocs truly "collectable" and "rare" as they are being called by retailers/sellers?

I wouldn't mind having a few more bright orange or other bright color KC Rocs for the winter months ... but I'm wondering if these are a test [really rare collectables], or if there will be more colors or colors will be the norm and available more often from now on.

Hello Dave,
Are the Archangels still being produced? If not, when were they discontinued?

Hey Dave! Question, I've seen quite a few colored and marbled 12x KC Rocs around in the last month or two. Are you going to be making 12x KC Rocs in colors now, or are these colored Rocs truly "collectable" and "rare" as they are being called by retailers/sellers?

I wouldn't mind having a few more bright orange or other bright color KC Rocs for the winter months ... but I'm wondering if these are a test [really rare collectables], or if there will be more colors or colors will be the norm and available more often from now on.



They are relatively rare for now, but we plan on making more next time we run. They were not intended to be collector items.

Hello Dave,
Are the Archangels still being produced? If not, when were they discontinued?



DX Archangels have not been discontinued. DX Archangels sell well. Pro Archangels were discontinued.

Hello Dave,

I would like to ask you to bring back the old CE plastic as so many others have requested, but I know that is not planned. Which leads me to ask, whatever the plastic blend that was used to make the Eleven Time PDGA World Golf Champion KC PRO Cheetah plastic be used for mass quanities of many molds. What a great blend of plastic with durability and feel. What is the closest blend to that currently being produced?
Thanks in advance, Scott

Hello Dave,

I would like to ask you to bring back the old CE plastic as so many others have requested, but I know that is not planned. Which leads me to ask, whatever the plastic blend that was used to make the Eleven Time PDGA World Golf Champion KC PRO Cheetah plastic be used for mass quanities of many molds. What a great blend of plastic with durability and feel. What is the closest blend to that currently being produced?
Thanks in advance, Scott



The original plastic doesn't exist anymore. The manufacturer stopped producing it. The closest to it now is Champion or Star.

Hello Dave,
Are the Archangels still being produced? If not, when were they discontinued?



DX Archangels have not been discontinued. DX Archangels sell well. Pro Archangels were discontinued.



Pro Archangels ? Never seen them, when were they produced?

Hello Dave,

I would like to ask you to bring back the old CE plastic as so many others have requested, but I know that is not planned. Which leads me to ask, whatever the plastic blend that was used to make the Eleven Time PDGA World Golf Champion KC PRO Cheetah plastic be used for mass quanities of many molds. What a great blend of plastic with durability and feel. What is the closest blend to that currently being produced?
Thanks in advance, Scott



:D:D:D:D
This is the question that motivated me to sign up for this message board many years back. It has also produced some of the most entertaining paranoid conspiracy theories in the history of our sport.

Hello Dave,
Are the Archangels still being produced? If not, when were they discontinued?



DX Archangels have not been discontinued. DX Archangels sell well. Pro Archangels were discontinued.



Pro Archangels ? Never seen them, when were they produced?



I think he meant champ.

They couldnt havent been more different (dx and champ archangels). The DX one is one of the least stable discs I have ever thrown and the Champion ones were extremely stable. I really like the Champion ones.

Hello Dave,
Are the Archangels still being produced? If not, when were they discontinued?



DX Archangels have not been discontinued. DX Archangels sell well. Pro Archangels were discontinued.



Pro Archangels ? Never seen them, when were they produced?



I thought they were Pro as the ones I tested about five years ago were white. Apparently they are still in CFR, where they will remain, in Champion. Regardless, they were too stable to be Archangels.

I got two of the gummy angles from Mark at discgolfvalues.com ..... and they are really overstable to a certian speed and then all of a sudden they become understable but FADE really hard. I read the flight char. on INNOVA's site and that is why I ordered them in the first place...I wanted a slow understable fairway driver...well that is not what these are but that is not saying they are bad they just did not fly like the archangle.....BUT the PLASTIC they are run in is THE BEST I have ever felt from INNOVA. I do like the two disc they just have their own name in my bag.....one offs if you will :D

I got two of the gummy angles from Mark at discgolfvalues.com ..... and they are really overstable to a certian speed and then all of a sudden they become understable but FADE really hard. I read the flight char. on INNOVA's site and that is why I ordered them in the first place...I wanted a slow understable fairway driver...well that is not what these are but that is not saying they are bad they just did not fly like the archangle.....BUT the PLASTIC they are run in is THE BEST I have ever felt from INNOVA. I do like the two disc they just have their own name in my bag.....one offs if you will :D



Any other discs you can compare the Champ Archangel to as far as flight pattern is concerned? From what I'm reading, sounds almost like a new mold Beast...

It is shorter, more of a fairway driver. The rim is smaller than a beast. The rim is more like an eagle but the flight path is more overstable like a firebird. Very predictable short distance disc due its stability. All the ones I have are extremely gummy as well.

They couldnt havent been more different (dx and champ archangels). The DX one is one of the least stable discs I have ever thrown and the Champion ones were extremely stable. I really like the Champion ones.



Whew, then it wasn't just me. The Champ AA I have is an overstable pig. Definitley not the slightly slow, durable, flippy angel I was looking for.

It is shorter, more of a fairway driver. The rim is smaller than a beast. The rim is more like an eagle but the flight path is more overstable like a firebird. Very predictable short distance disc due its stability. All the ones I have are extremely gummy as well.



So one of the most understable molds flew like one of the most overstable molds, and the only difference was plastic? Interesting...guess that's why it isn't in regular production :)

It is shorter, more of a fairway driver. The rim is smaller than a beast. The rim is more like an eagle but the flight path is more overstable like a firebird. Very predictable short distance disc due its stability. All the ones I have are extremely gummy as well.



The Archangel has the same rim width as a Valk, bigger than an Eagle. The champion ones are overstable, I think, because on the top of the wing there is a groove where the wing ends and the dome begins. Think Pulse...Every disc I've ever thrown that came out with that groove is overstable. It is like an overstable Valk. Its not Firebird overstable as it will flip at high speeds or in a headwind. I also think that some of the stability has to do with the gummy plastic. Gummy discs always seem to lose their spin faster as they slow down, resulting in the overstable flight pattern.