Hi Dave,

Is it true that the 1st run CE Valkyries all have VK written outside of the circle? I have one that I swear is a cherry 1st run rainbow stamp, and would like to know if it's genuine or not. Thanks in advance.

Hi Dave,

Is it true that the 1st run CE Valkyries all have VK written outside of the circle? I have one that I swear is a cherry 1st run rainbow stamp, and would like to know if it's genuine or not. Thanks in advance.



I would hesitate to say that in any run "all" of anything was done. A large VK, usually outside the circle, was the early mark. Most of the first run was red.

Dave,

I know you said that no recent runs of a beadless rhyno have been made, but I have what appears to be just that. I got it a couple months ago, in white star plastic, and it has all the same mold engravings and patent numbers as my Pro Rhyno's. Were they maybe an early test run of the Pig, or is that too different?

Thanks in advance!

Chris

Dave, when might we see more info about the Monarch and Pig on the innovadiscs.com site?
What's up with the wing on the Monarch? Someone said it has a groove in it? Something new?

Can you ask your guys to run some RED Monarchs and Pigs ... I can't find any red Monarchs yet.

Will my Monarch have to migrate south in the fall?

Marshall Street might have some Reds, maybe just pinks.
http://www.marshallstreetdiscgolf.com/prodimages/monarch_champion3_big.jpg

beadless rhyno ... white star plastic


that's a beadless Rhyno experiment in Star... a few months ago discgolfvalues sold a handful with a CFR stamp as well as some x-outs. it's not a production item, if there was any confusion caused by the limited number out there.

I am really impressed with my monarch so far. I honestly haven't even tried rollers with it yet. It holds a gentle turn for so long and behaves in the air much like a well broken midrange except flies seemingly as quick as my wraiths. I throw controlled golf hyzers at about 350' so i'm not having any overpower issues with this disc. My favorite part is how nose angle forgiving it is. Throw the nose up and it still works hard to turn over even deep into it's flight. Not only that but the glide is incredible, gotta try this thing in some tailwinds...

Do they fly like fastr roadrunners like the advertising says?

Dave,

I know you said that no recent runs of a beadless rhyno have been made, but I have what appears to be just that. I got it a couple months ago, in white star plastic, and it has all the same mold engravings and patent numbers as my Pro Rhyno's. Were they maybe an early test run of the Pig, or is that too different?

Thanks in advance!

Chris



There hasn't been any runs at all. Maybe a few tests that I don't recall. We used to make a Ching disc that was a small bead, Tank. The Pig looks similar and doesn't have a bead at all, but the rim is a little wider.

Dave, when might we see more info about the Monarch and Pig on the innovadiscs.com site?
What's up with the wing on the Monarch? Someone said it has a groove in it? Something new?

Can you ask your guys to run some RED Monarchs and Pigs ... I can't find any red Monarchs yet.

Will my Monarch have to migrate south in the fall?



I already approved the info for the Monarch. I guess it's just a matter of getting it up on the site. I believe we are only making Champion Monarchs right now, but in all colors, including red. The groove is something new. It allows us to make lower weights in a higher speed disc that is friendly for most throwers. Available down to 153gms. (It does go lower on occasion.) This is a disc that will help average players get more distance. Power throwers might like it for long turnovers or rolling. The rolling characteristic is a little different than most long range rollers in that its hook at the end is noticeably tighter than other long range rollers. I believe it migrates to Mexico in the winter.

I was wondering whether we'd have to wait for summer to see them after their migration from Mexico...

The rolling characteristic is a little different than most long range rollers in that its hook at the end is noticeably tighter than other long range rollers.

Hi Dave, would you mind explaining a little about what you mean by the hook of the roller and how it's tigher? Do you mean that the disc will stand up and lean over to it's flight plate side more dramatically at the end the rolling path? (is it the understability that causes this?) I am just not certain if you might mean by tighter that it stays on its straight line more accurately once it has stood up.

I got a few throws in with my 162g Monarch today, but they were downhill into a breeze, so I can't tell too much. Yes, it does want to flip!!! I was amazed at how long it turned to the right and stayed airborne. I have a feeling that on flat ground it will be a good nose up hyzer-flip disc. I'm playing at Emerald Isle on Sunday (meaning: lots of open distance shots) so I should be able to tell much more at that time. Jr. threw his 172g a few times today and told me it flipped up nice for him. He envisions lots of sky rollers in its future.

The rolling characteristic is a little different than most long range rollers in that its hook at the end is noticeably tighter than other long range rollers.

Hi Dave, would you mind explaining a little about what you mean by the hook of the roller and how it's tigher? Do you mean that the disc will stand up and lean over to it's flight plate side more dramatically at the end the rolling path? (is it the understability that causes this?) I am just not certain if you might mean by tighter that it stays on its straight line more accurately once it has stood up.



Most long range rollers have a pronounced sweep when they finally flip over to lay on their back. They don't simply fall over. This makes it difficult to roll in a relatively narrow fairway. The Monarch seems to have a much shorter sweep such that it can be thrown more accurately in a tighter fairway. I watched Rob Wilson roll it down the notorious #14 at Golden State, off the tee and stay in the fairway. It can be done with other discs, but not as easily, and not as often. Most rollers, (if they get that far), will flip out OB into the parking lot.

When are you going to make the Banshee in Star?

Hey Dave, in a tourney the other day I won a disc that the guy called a Hammerhead Viper. It looks like a star stamped viper. What is a hammerhead viper?

I think he meant Metalhead Viper.

When are you going to make the Banshee in Star?



It's not scheduled at all yet.

Hey Dave, in a tourney the other day I won a disc that the guy called a Hammerhead Viper. It looks like a star stamped viper. What is a hammerhead viper?



Proto Vipers were Star Stamped. So were Metalheads but the print on the stamp looked like something that would be on a heavy metal band album. Both were considered very stable. Protos were the most stable.

When are you going to make the Banshee in Star?



It's not scheduled at all yet.



Could you make some please? To complete the fairway driver line up.

Are you going to make the EXP1 in Sirius?

When are you going to make the Banshee in Star?



It's not scheduled at all yet.



Could you make some please? To complete the fairway driver line up.

Are you going to make the EXP1 in Sirius?



That is up to Millennium.

they should do a wide roadrunner rim with a sidewinder top. i wonder if that has been tried.



It is hard to make wide rimmed convexed discs and keep them down in weight because they have too much mass.



Apparently, the trick is hack a big hunk out of the rim.

Dave is good...

i don't see the need for a star banshee with the whippet and firebird already in star

Hey Dave,

What is the difference in the flight and the mold of the Whippet and the Whippet-X?

Hey Dave,

What is the difference in the flight and the mold of the Whippet and the Whippet-X?



The Whippet-X is a slightly beefier mold with more overstabity.

i don't see the need for a star banshee with the whippet and firebird already in star



Why? Banshees arent like either, more like a good combo of the two. Just wish I still threw them if they do come out in Star.

i don't see the need for a star banshee with the whippet and firebird already in star



The Whippet is a pig, I throw those. The Firebird is two steps faster with a much wider wider wing.

i don't see the need for a star banshee with the whippet and firebird already in star



The Whippet is a pig, I throw those. The Firebird is two steps faster with a much wider wider wing.



Wider used twice for emphasis. :D

I got to hold a Pig yesterday. It did not feel or look any different than a rhyno.

I got to hold a Pig yesterday. It did not feel or look any different than a rhyno.



Don't know Plankeye, but I'm thinking you need to work on your observational skills. First of all there's the whole horn thing. Second of all you're lucky the Rhino didn't knock you into the middle of next week......... /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif ;) :D

I got to hold a Pig yesterday. It did not feel or look any different than a rhyno.



Rhyno has a smaller rim with a big bead. Pig has a wider rim with almost no bead. Similar discs. Pig is faster.

I got to hold a Pig yesterday. It did not feel or look any different than a rhyno.



Rhyno has a smaller rim with a big bead. Pig has a wider rim with almost no bead. Similar discs. Pig is faster.



Any chance the Pig will come out in soft Pro Plastic like the Ryhno?

Also, does the design of the Monarch mean that it may be possible to make speed 10+, stable / overwstable drivers, in Champion / Star plastic with weights in the mid 150s?

If it is, are any of these discs close to be tested and or released?

Thanks for your time!

Any chance the Pig will come out in soft Pro Plastic like the Ryhno?

Probably not as soft, but the Pig is made out of the same basic mix.

Also, does the design of the Monarch mean that it may be possible to make speed 10+, stable / overwstable drivers, in Champion / Star plastic with weights in the mid 150s?

Yes

If it is, are any of these discs close to be tested and or released?

No

Thanks for your time!

I'm looking forward to the day your answer to the last question is YES!! I'm alerting my budget to that possibility...

Were there any first run stamps for the monarch ?

MOnArcH WIll cHAnge THe gAMe.....dAVe I gOT A specIAl Order........TAlk TO YOU sOOn. . . . . . .THAnks . . . . . el....gUY. . . :D

Hi DAve,
how would you rate the new Discmania PD (Innova flight rating)?
I was surprised, I was expecting a Destroyer/ X-C type of driver.

Were there any first run stamps for the monarch ?



Not that I know of

Hi DAve,
how would you rate the new Discmania PD (Innova flight rating)?
I was surprised, I was expecting a Destroyer/ X-C type of driver.



I would say it is a cross between a Starfire and Firebird. I would give it numbers similar to a Starfire, (which are similar to a Firebird's numbers). The problem is that the numbers wouldn't do it justice. It has the high speed hard line stability of a Firebird and can be thrown into a wind with confidence, but has more speed and more glide, like the Starfire. The numbers would probably be 10, 4, 0, 3. Same as the Starfire.

Dave,
As far as feel, what would you compare the pig to? Is it like a roc with a thumbtrack? Classic Roc? Or does it have a totally different feel?
Thanks.

Think Rhyno...I think it is going to feel large in your hand.

Dave,
As far as feel, what would you compare the pig to? Is it like a roc with a thumbtrack? Classic Roc? Or does it have a totally different feel?
Thanks.



I would think it's most like a Cro with a Thumtrac. Wider rimmed Rhyno like.

Dave,

Question regarding the Champion RoadRunner. Just received a few new ones in the mail and I noticed they seem to be retooled. There appears to be an extra little bump that would appear to make it more understable.

I have not thrown these new retooled ones but my feeling was that the original mold in max weight was more stable then it's rating. A more understable RoadRunner may be a good thing for some but not for others.

For instance Dave Feldberg's go to roller recently appears to be a Huk Lab turquoise colored RoadRunner which is the original mold. I'm wondering if the new retooling would cause a player like Dave to reject it as Barry Schultz has rejected the retooled Beast.

My next question would be to address the process of retooling an existing mold and whether or not this should be announced formally to the disc public.

When a player commits to a mold and then they purchase a new disc and it's a different mold then this borders dangerously around consumer fraud.

Obviously most reputable dealers will take unthrown returns but wouldn't it be a good idea to have an official process of announcing mold changes to the disc throwing public?

Where is this extra "Bump"? I just got some new ones and they are exactly the same. It sounds like you got some with a molding flaw or variation

Unlike overstable drivers like the Firebird, understable drivers like the RoadRunner have convex shaped rim as opposed to a concave rim like the Firebird.

The RoadRunner has a tiny bead at the inside lip. The new retooling appears to be an added bump just above this tiny rim making it even more convex.

I'm not saying it's a bad thing but nevertheless it is now a different mold. Perhaps better for some but not for others.

For me it is clearly obvious of the difference just by touch alone. Upon close visual inspection if you hold it to the light the right way you can see the added convex bump just above the inside bead.

Dgdave perhaps you received a batch of the original mold being that most dealers and retailers still have the original mold in stock. The retooling appears to be a very recent change.

Dave,

Question regarding the Champion RoadRunner. Just received a few new ones in the mail and I noticed they seem to be retooled. There appears to be an extra little bump that would appear to make it more understable.



The Roadrunner has not been retooled. You probably have some type of molding variation.

Dave,

I have some questions about CE Teebirds. I am trying to identify which run I have.

The CE Teebird is opaque white with a rainbow CE stamp. It is the TL mold and on the back the "T" and the weight are written inside the circle.

I was thinking that it was a first run CE Teebird but someone told me that all first run CE Teebirds were red and that the TL mold was used in more than one run.

I'm not Dave D, but a Dave.

Not 1st run. Probably 3rd. Most 2nd runs were red and yellow, not all, but most. 3rd run is where you start seein lots of colors

TL's were either 1st or second run. 1st runs were red and 2nd runs came in a variety of colors including white, yellow, red, blue and a few off colors like orange. The off colors were probally created when they were switching the plastic colors.
With the TL being inside of the circle it is a later 2nd run.

I have a Red CE Teebird with "TL" on the back & a red one with "T" on the back that both appear to be TL's. I don't have a clue about the different runs but am curious after reading this. I don't have a pic of the backs but here are the discs - Any ideas about the runs?

"TL"-http://sports.webshots.com/photo/2935199230102936052MhxhFq
"T"-http://sports.webshots.com/photo/2272241810102936052qZpkpd

Thanks

Hi Dave,

When we will be seeing the Eagle-X mold making its glorious return in DX?

Thanks

Hi Dave,

When we will be seeing the Eagle-X mold making its glorious return in DX?

Thanks



Should already have hit the shelves.

http://www.coolmyspacebackgrounds.org/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/mrburns_excellent1.JPG

Dave, can you tell us which molds have been run in Echo Star thus far?

Any observations on those E* models, if you've tested or handled them, would be great too. Thanks!

Dave, can you tell us which molds have been run in Echo Star thus far?

Any observations on those E* models, if you've tested or handled them, would be great too. Thanks!



E has been run in Roadrunners, Destroyers, XCalibers that I know of. I also think Sidewinders. Probably more models have been run in E Star, that don't come to mind right now. My general observation is that the plastic seems to produce discs that are a little domier and more stable. Those two things don't generally go together. I think the E Star plastic feels a touch grippier and softer.

E has been run in Roadrunners, Destroyers, XCalibers that I know of. I also think Sidewinders



very nice.

Dave,
Can you describe the flight of the PD (Power Driver) from Discmania. Also, will there be CFR Champ MAXs?

Hi Dave,
what do you think of this?....
Big diameter disc, think Jaguar with some added stability, wide rim and same rim configuratuin as the Monarch? In Champion plastic...? Rating, S 7, G 6, T -2, F 1....
Is there a possibility..., :p :),.. please?

Dave,
Can you describe the flight of the PD (Power Driver) from Discmania. Also, will there be CFR Champ MAXs?



The Power Driver is a cross between a Firebird and a Starfire. It holds up very well in a wind like a Firebird, and has the range of a Starfire. Works for sidearm and backhand. I haven't tried it for overheads at all yet.

The Max is scheduled to be run in Champion, but I don't know when it will happen.

Hi Dave (or anybody else),

I don't know if this question has been asked already (I tried looking around, but didn't feel like reading hundreds of pages in this thread). If it has, just point me to it.

The standard stamp star destroyers are considerably less stable/predictable than the first run star destroyers, and often have inconsistent domes and are perhaps "gummier." This has led to the stable first-runs being coveted by many and the standard stamps being eschewed. I really like my first runs and would like to get a couple more, but don't want to get hooked on a disc that looks like it will become rare and expensive. I know the pro plastic is more like the first run stars, but I prefer the durability of the star plastic (and don't like the grip on the champion).

Do you have any plans (or would you give them consideration) to make more star destroyers like the first runs?

Thanks!

-Ryan

The standard stamp star destroyers are considerably less stable/predictable than the first run star destroyers, and often have inconsistent domes and are perhaps "gummier." This has led to the stable first-runs being coveted by many and the standard stamps being eschewed. I really like my first runs and would like to get a couple more, but don't want to get hooked on a disc that looks like it will become rare and expensive. I know the pro plastic is more like the first run stars, but I prefer the durability of the star plastic (and don't like the grip on the champion).

Do you have any plans (or would you give them consideration) to make more star destroyers like the first runs?

Thanks!

-Ryan


For whatever reason, there is variability in all runs. I don't think the first run is necessarily going to be the most stable. Case in point is a 165g Star Wraith from the latest run; and it is the most stable Wraith I have ever thrown. The unfortunate thing is that it is very difficult to tell the more stable from the less stable long range drivers like the Destroyer just by looking at them. It used to be that the flatter drivers were the more stable to over stable discs. That doesn't seem to hold up any more. To answer your last question; yes, we want to make some Destroyers as stable as most of the first run. I think we will, but only time and testing will tell.

Hi Dave,
what do you think of this?....
Big diameter disc, think Jaguar with some added stability, wide rim and same rim configuratuin as the Monarch? In Champion plastic...? Rating, S 7, G 6, T -2, F 1....
Is there a possibility..., :p :),.. please?



Probably not. Sorry. We could much easier make a Champion Jaguar. But that is not in our current plans either.

Dave, are you planning on making kc teebirds and eagles in the pro plastic ever again?

Hi Dave,
what do you think of this?....
Big diameter disc, think Jaguar with some added stability, wide rim and same rim configuratuin as the Monarch? In Champion plastic...? Rating, S 7, G 6, T -2, F 1....
Is there a possibility..., :p :),.. please?



Probably not. Sorry. We could much easier make a Champion Jaguar. But that is not in our current plans either.



Wouldn�t a Jaguar in Champion plastic be too heavy?

my dad has 3 jaguars and the lightest one he has is 187.

Dave, are you planning on making kc teebirds and eagles in the pro plastic ever again?



Not for our main line.

Hi Dave,
what do you think of this?....
Big diameter disc, think Jaguar with some added stability, wide rim and same rim configuratuin as the Monarch? In Champion plastic...? Rating, S 7, G 6, T -2, F 1....
Is there a possibility..., :p :),.. please?



Probably not. Sorry. We could much easier make a Champion Jaguar. But that is not in our current plans either.



Wouldn�t a Jaguar in Champion plastic be too heavy?



I don't think so. We are able to make Condors under the limit, so I think we could do Jaguars under the limit. The limit is 200 gms. Whether a 200 gm Jaguar is useful for the Jaguar throwers is another thing.

Dave,

Just wanted to say thanks for the pig! It feels like a thumbtrak gator, and is taking the place of my whippet. I really like the Pro plastic feel that it has!

Chris

Dave,

Just wanted to say thanks for the pig! It feels like a thumbtrak gator, and is taking the place of my whippet. I really like the Pro plastic feel that it has!

Chris



Is it really that stable that it could take the place of a Whippet? I have not seen one in person, nor spoken to anyone that has thrown it, but i didnt think it would be that stable from what i have heard on here.

I threw a pig and it is an overstable disc, but to compare it to a whippet is silly. The whippet is more overstable no question.

Without a doubt the whippet it more overstable, but since I don't throw either of them very hard, they fly similar for me.

I hear you...doesnt the pig pro plastic feel almost like dx, or is it just me.

I thought the Pig had more of a leathery feel... Whoops, wrong thread... :o

Have you not seen the pig tail on the bottom of the Pig mold? :D:D:D

I hear you...doesnt the pig pro plastic feel almost like dx, or is it just me.



I have a proto that Mitch Mac gave me and it does feel like DX or the last run of Pro Rhyno's that they had that were stiff. I would like to see the Pig with a flatter top and gummy Pro like it should. It is stable though.

from a couple of times i threw a pig, it seemed similiar to a pro-d drone.

Love that PIG, rhyno top, cro bottom, awesome feel & in da bag!

I just picked up two while at lunch. Didnt get a chance to throw them yet, but they feel really good in the hand. The two i got were both 171 and very soft and grippy, pretty much just like a pro Rhyno feels. I did see a 168 that seemed really stiff and slick though. Going to try and get out tonight to give them a try.

hello dave, i have a question regarding the discmania p2. i wanted to know if the s-line of plastic is similar to the innova star? i've thrown the p1 in d-line and wasn't sure if trying out the s-line was a good idea or not.

hello dave, i have a question regarding the discmania p2. i wanted to know if the s-line of plastic is similar to the innova star? i've thrown the p1 in d-line and wasn't sure if trying out the s-line was a good idea or not.



Yes S-Line is similar to Star plastic. The P2 is more stable than the P1.

hey Dave are the currently available star gators the L or X mold? i need a few new x-molds in premium plastic. thanks

hey Dave are the currently available star gators the L or X mold? i need a few new x-molds in premium plastic. thanks



Same here!

Dave, why are some CE discs (like the CE Aero, CE Aviar, CE Eagle, CE Firebird, etc.) approved along with the same mold? Is it because there was so much flashing on the original CE discs that the mold was considered different?

Hi Dave,

what discs are presently in your bag?

hey Dave are the currently available star gators the L or X mold? i need a few new x-molds in premium plastic. thanks



My preliminary information is that we have only run Star Gators once. I will have to check on the configuration. I think it is the less stable version.

Dave, why are some CE discs (like the CE Aero, CE Aviar, CE Eagle, CE Firebird, etc.) approved along with the same mold? Is it because there was so much flashing on the original CE discs that the mold was considered different?



Sorry, I don't know.

Hi Dave,

what discs are presently in your bag?



Hi Rob,

Currently I have 2 max P2s, 1 max Star Cro, 2 171 Monarchs, 1 172 S PD, 1 172 Champ Wraith, 1 rediculously stable 165 Star Wraith, 1 169 Star XCaliber, 2 168 Star Destroyers, 1 175 Roadrunner, 1 test disc, 1 177 Champion San Marino Roc, 1 179 Champion Coyote. I think. My bag is in flux right now. This is just what I have been practicing with lately. I will switch out the two Monarchs for two max weights tomorrow to see if there is any difference. Some of the discs are for testing, (like the Champion Wraith).

are you guys planning to put out anything new in the 7-8 speed range or looking to eep doing more fast drivers? Also, any new mids in the works?

Thanks for everything dave

are you guys planning to put out anything new in the 7-8 speed range or looking to eep doing more fast drivers? Also, any new mids in the works?

Thanks for everything dave



No new mids are in the works right now. Working on several new drivers in various speed ranges. Mainly aimed at recreational players.

Dave--the run of star gators was "L". are champ gators going to run in reg. production again, or are the next run of stars going to be the original, more overstable type? any idea when these will be run? thx--steven

Dave, is the Test disc in your bag a driver, aimed at Rec players?

I will switch out the two Monarchs for two max weights tomorrow to see if there is any difference.



downstream, i would love to hear what (if any) differences you notice between the heavy Monarchs and their lower weight counterparts. what i have read in the Monarch thread leads me to believe i will soon have a Monarch or two in my bag...

I've been throwing Monarchs in 168 and in 175.
My experience is that they both fly the same but the lighter will move through it's full "S" flight a bit earlier than the heavy.

For me the light ones I will "air" but the heavy ones I will roll.

I throw the light ones with a fan grip like my mids and the heavies I crank out flat with a power grip and they set down like a longer cut roller.




.

are you guys planning to put out anything new in the 7-8 speed range or looking to eep doing more fast drivers? Also, any new mids in the works?

Thanks for everything dave



No new mids are in the works right now. Working on several new drivers in various speed ranges. Mainly aimed at recreational players.



Wise move...but you knew that already!! Anything that can help save the rec players from the dreaded "hard fade to the left" (RHBH) will kep more newbies interested in the game.

ahy chance of a champ pig in the near future? i have had my pro pig a couple of days but it is starting to wear quicker than my pro rhynos.

Dave--the run of star gators was "L". are champ gators going to run in reg. production again, or are the next run of stars going to be the original, more overstable type? any idea when these will be run? thx--steven



The run of Star Gators was not really L. They did look like that, but they should have flown like the original X. I haven't flown them recently to comment on how they compare to the originals, but they should be more high speed stable. I would appreciate any feedback from those who have thrown the Star Gators.

Dave, is the Test disc in your bag a driver, aimed at Rec players?



Not rec.

I forgot about the Pig in my bag.

ahy chance of a champ pig in the near future? i have had my pro pig a couple of days but it is starting to wear quicker than my pro rhynos.



My Pro Pig is also showing signs of wear, but has not shown any instability. My feeling is that it might be like the JK Aviar, (same material) which will beat up but not get unstable for a long time. How is yours flying? Make sure that you are only comparing the scuffs and scrapes and not a nose down bend. The nose down bend can be easily put back into place, but if it's not, will cause instability.

ahy chance of a champ pig in the near future? i have had my pro pig a couple of days but it is starting to wear quicker than my pro rhynos.



Sorry, forgot to answer your question. We are not planning a Champ Pig unless we need to. If we do make one, it will be a gummier type.

ahy chance of a champ pig in the near future? i have had my pro pig a couple of days but it is starting to wear quicker than my pro rhynos.



Sorry, forgot to answer your question. We are not planning a Champ Pig unless we need to. If we do make one, it will be a gummier type.





YUMMY GUMMY!!! CLEAR ONES PLEASE!! hehe...

Josh

my star gators were noticably less overstable than my champions. There was no bead on the stars. I throw the gator alot and I prefer the original champion mold with the large bead. will you be running these again in either champ or star? thx again

out of the two star gators in my invetory neither have replaced my champion gator for dependable stability.

ahy chance of a champ pig in the near future? i have had my pro pig a couple of days but it is starting to wear quicker than my pro rhynos.



Sorry, forgot to answer your question. We are not planning a Champ Pig unless we need to. If we do make one, it will be a gummier type.





YUMMY GUMMY!!! CLEAR ONES PLEASE!! hehe...

Josh



WE WANT GUMMY!!!

Dave--the run of star gators was "L". are champ gators going to run in reg. production again, or are the next run of stars going to be the original, more overstable type? any idea when these will be run? thx--steven



The run of Star Gators was not really L. They did look like that, but they should have flown like the original X. I haven't flown them recently to comment on how they compare to the originals, but they should be more high speed stable. I would appreciate any feedback from those who have thrown the Star Gators.


The Gator L, for me, was less high speed overstable, and it required more finesse to turn. Not a bad thing. I actually like the mold a lot, but it's not going to replace other discs that I have in my bag.
The Gator X (original CH mold, big bead), well, I have had one of these in my bag since I started playing, and wouldn't play a round without it.
I think they are both good discs, but I would rather see the original Champion Gator X big bead, or a Star Gator X big bead (if it's as overstable, or more so) ... I don't care about DX. The beauty of the CH Gator is that it stays overstable for a long time. However, once it is broken in it flies a lot like the Gator L ... so I don't need to buy any Gator L's ... I have plenty of beat Gator X.
For me the Gator is a sidearm flick disc, or sharp hyzer turn disc, or a "wind" Roc, windy putter. If it's not going to start turning out of my hand, it's not in my bag.
BTW, I would love to try the Pig, since it looks like it is a slower Gator, but I hesitate to buy it because if the Gator X is available, I will go with a Gator before adding another mold to my bag. FYI, I've also heard a lot of my buddies say they won't buy the Pig because of the thumbtrack.
Both the Birdie, and the Pig, with a non-thumb track top would interest me.

As I recall, my original test indicated the Star was seriously overstable. I know I was not satisfied with the original Gator's stability. I just got both a big bead DX and a no bead Star, both new blunt nose type and tested both with Steve Wisecup. Both are seriously overstable. If anything, the no bead Star was more overstable. That being said, I don't know why you are not getting the same result. The only things I can think of are: bad disc, not a new blunt nose, or the disc has hit something seriously fast and has bent the nose down. The two Stars I tested were heavy dark blue.

All this being said, we have no plans to run Champion at this time.

Maybe we are talking about two different things. I am referring to overall stability but mainly high speed. You may be talking about the low speed overstability. I agree that the big bead has more low speed overstability, but sure can't see any extra stability high speed over the Star.

Okay, I can do the proper test now. I was just brought a CFR big bead new mold Champion Gator. I can test that directly against the no bead new mold Star. I can say, just from looking at it, that the Champion looks beefier, for some reason. I will post again when I have the results.

Okay, I did the test with Cup. 171 Star Gator vs 175 Champ Gator. No real difference could be seen. If there were any difference. The edge would have gone to the Star, not the Champ. I will take these with me to La Mirada tomorrow to see if things change in the wind.

Okay, I can do the proper test now. I was just brought a CFR big bead new mold Champion Gator. I can test that directly against the no bead new mold Star. I can say, just from looking at it, that the Champion looks beefier, for some reason. I will post again when I have the results.



The new Champ Gators are much more domey than the original run or the regular production stamp. This domeyness causes them to be noticably less stable in the wind. Also, the stars feel quite different in the hand because of the lack of bead.

Dave,
I have 2 Pro Pigs, 171 and 175. The 171 is in the bag auditioning, and I am very pleased with its consistency. (Both in feel and flight) In Virginia, we have lots of wooded courses, and my home course, Elk Creek, in Appomattox, certainly is among the woodiest. Put the lighter Pig through its paces a couple of times, with good results. I think that this disc will improve with usage, much like a Rhyno. The other guys I have let throw the Pig like it as well. I can't wait until this one gets just a bit beat. Just out of curiousity, have you or anyone ever tried to make a Champ or Star Roc that has the super flat top? Around here we call them Ching style, may just be vernacular. Always liked the stability of that particular mold. Might get me chucking Innova midranges. Good work on the Pig. KP

Dave--when you say " new blunt nose" when referring to the gator--are you saying the mold for the new dx and new CFR are different than the original champs? i have noticed that the new cfr and new dx are more domey. I really like the feel of the big bead and the flatter top in premium a plastic gator. Hopefully the champion gator will return or you will make a star with the big bead. Thanks again

Dave,
I have 2 Pro Pigs, 171 and 175. The 171 is in the bag auditioning, and I am very pleased with its consistency. (Both in feel and flight) In Virginia, we have lots of wooded courses, and my home course, Elk Creek, in Appomattox, certainly is among the woodiest. Put the lighter Pig through its paces a couple of times, with good results. I think that this disc will improve with usage, much like a Rhyno. The other guys I have let throw the Pig like it as well. I can't wait until this one gets just a bit beat. Just out of curiousity, have you or anyone ever tried to make a Champ or Star Roc that has the super flat top? Around here we call them Ching style, may just be vernacular. Always liked the stability of that particular mold. Might get me chucking Innova midranges. Good work on the Pig. KP



Possibly a Millennium MF Sentinel might be what you want in terms of a super flat Roc.

Dave--when you say " new blunt nose" when referring to the gator--are you saying the mold for the new dx and new CFR are different than the original champs? i have noticed that the new cfr and new dx are more domey. I really like the feel of the big bead and the flatter top in premium a plastic gator. Hopefully the champion gator will return or you will make a star with the big bead. Thanks again



Yes, the new DX and Champ CFRs are the blunter nose. The domeyness is not part of the mold. It is just the particular molding. The two discs (Star and Champ Gators) I have been testing aren't particularly domey, but I have seen others that are more domey.

Bring back the old mold gators in champ or star plastic!!

obviously seconded by myself...

Dave,
I have 2 Pro Pigs, 171 and 175. The 171 is in the bag auditioning, and I am very pleased with its consistency. (Both in feel and flight) In Virginia, we have lots of wooded courses, and my home course, Elk Creek, in Appomattox, certainly is among the woodiest. Put the lighter Pig through its paces a couple of times, with good results. I think that this disc will improve with usage, much like a Rhyno. The other guys I have let throw the Pig like it as well. I can't wait until this one gets just a bit beat. Just out of curiousity, have you or anyone ever tried to make a Champ or Star Roc that has the super flat top? Around here we call them Ching style, may just be vernacular. Always liked the stability of that particular mold. Might get me chucking Innova midranges. Good work on the Pig. KP



Dave-

Any plans to make a disc with the Spider top and the Pig bottom??? :D

Spider-Pig, Spider-Pig.
Does whatever a Spider-Pig does.
Can he swing
from a web?
No he *can't*,
He's a pig.
Look out!
He is the Spider-Pig!

Sorry... couldn't resist...

Dave-

Any plans to make a disc with the Spider top and the Pig bottom??? :D

Spider-Pig, Spider-Pig.
Does whatever a Spider-Pig does.
Can he swing
from a web?
No he *can't*,
He's a pig.
Look out!
He is the Spider-Pig!

Sorry... couldn't resist...



I don't think that's possible. The parts won't mate. Sorry.

I don't think that's possible. The parts won't mate.


a little genetic modification goes a long way...
toward spider-goats (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/889951.stm)!

Champion Chimera... DX Chimera... Star Chimera... it's got a ring to it.

I don't think that's possible. The parts won't mate.


a little genetic modification goes a long way...
toward spider-goats (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/889951.stm)!

Champion Chimera... DX Chimera... Star Chimera... it's got a ring to it.



Sound like a chime?

I will switch out the two Monarchs for two max weights tomorrow to see if there is any difference.



downstream, i would love to hear what (if any) differences you notice between the heavy Monarchs and their lower weight counterparts. what i have read in the Monarch thread leads me to believe i will soon have a Monarch or two in my bag...



Okay, I played with the 175 Monarchs all weekend and they are a little different. I don't know if it was the extra weight or the fact that they were slightly flatter. The latter is what I suspect. The heavier 175g, flatter Monarchs were more like Roadrunners than the lighter, domier Monarchs. That is they were slightly more stable and had slightly less carry. While I liked the lighter domier Monarchs better in the air for backhand, I think I liked the heavier, flatter Monarchs better on the ground (rolling) and for sidearm air. Keep in mind I roll and throw both sidearm and backhand. So, I guess what I am saying is that I liked the original lighter domier Monarchs for air backhand, otherwise, I liked the heavier, flatter Monarchs for air sidearm and rolling backhand and sidearm.

Tested the Star 171 Gator vs the Champ 175 Gator at La Mirada and could detect no difference whether for sidearm or backhand. Both were very stable to overstable.

Had a chance to get my Pig's out on the course a couple times this weekend. After about 5 throws in the field, it earned a spot in my bag. I think i have been waiting for this disc for a while. If i had to describe it, IMO i think it is like a putter version of a Firebird. Not much glide or float at all, goes as far/hard as thrown and drops. Also very stable i think. I was cranking them into a pretty good head wind and they were not turning over at all. Just wanted to say thanks to Dave for coming up with this one.

Dave- Are you saying Gators will no longer be available in the old mold?

Dave- Are you saying Gators will no longer be available in the old mold?



Yes, unless we find there is some problem.

what is the reason that you changed molds in the first place?
is there a reason to not run the old mold again, or is it just a case of 'not broke, dont fix it'. meaning that if the new ones work, why run the old?

most, if not all gator throwers i have talked to prefer the old mold, for flight and especially feel. if you are saying the stability of new stars is equal to the new champs--i believe you. but my experience was that the stars are not as overstable as my original champs, and do not feel the same. why the mold change? will you at least be able to mold some gators in star or champ that have the bead?

most, if not all gator throwers i have talked to prefer the old mold, for flight and especially feel. if you are saying the stability of new stars is equal to the new champs--i believe you. but my experience was that the stars are not as overstable as my original champs, and do not feel the same. why the mold change? will you at least be able to mold some gators in star or champ that have the bead?



I think I understand what you are saying now. I switched molds because the original mold didn't hold a line well enough at high speeds all the time. Some of the runs were very good and some were not. If you got a very flat old mold run, you would probably be very satisfied. The new configuration is absolutely more stable and more torque resistant. That being said, they can still be molded less than overstable. It would be very surprising to see any unstable at this point. As you have noted, the domey or flat profile is generally a good tell for stability for putters and mids. So, all this being said, you are looking for flat Gators, rather than new or old mold Gators. I know they exist in the present stock because I got two randomly. One Star and one CFR Champion.

re: the gators, for me I think its definitely about feel. I have 2 original champ gators that are super overstable compared to my newer / cfr champ gators. Plus the newer champ gators are domey and just feel weird.

Dave--that makes complete sense. Especially the part about beefing up the rim to make it even more overstable. despite this change, the newer CFR and star gators i got recently were less overstable, i assume because they were domey. my old champs are flat and more overstable. I will keep my eyes peeled for flat cfr's. it sounds like the new, blunter rim combined with a flat top is what we need. do you plan to continue running the beaded x-type in champ plastic for CFR? regular line? Lastly--will the next run of stars be L or X? thanks as always

Dave- Can you explain the differences in "X" molds and "L" molds?
I'm sure the answer is in this thread somewhere, but I cannot find it.. Thank you

Dave- Can you explain the differences in "X" molds and "L" molds?
I'm sure the answer is in this thread somewhere, but I cannot find it.. Thank you



The use those terms to talk about the stability of Discs. Some Discs are made slightly different to make it an X or L mold. X is a more stable version of a disc, L is a less stable. So you have Teebirds and TeebirdsL or TL's, or FL's or FX's, or SL's and regular Starfires.

Dave--that makes complete sense. Especially the part about beefing up the rim to make it even more overstable. despite this change, the newer CFR and star gators i got recently were less overstable, i assume because they were domey. my old champs are flat and more overstable. I will keep my eyes peeled for flat cfr's. it sounds like the new, blunter rim combined with a flat top is what we need. do you plan to continue running the beaded x-type in champ plastic for CFR? regular line? Lastly--will the next run of stars be L or X? thanks as always



Right now the plan is to run big bead for CFR Champion. I have been told that this is one of our more popular CFR discs. No decision for the next run of Stars yet. I can see that I need to keep a better eye on the dome.

i think some of the reason my pro pig seems to be wearing quick is that it skips alot. the rhyno for the most part stops where it hits, unless it lands on the edge.

Hey Dave,

Can you tell me which innova disc(s) is comparable to the Sirius Orion LF?

Thanks as always!

Hey Dave is any plans to run a Champion glow Destroyer in the CFR runs because I have noticed that the glow pigment def makes the glow discs that I have a little more stable and to get a destoyer that was a little more stable would be beautiful.

I have a feeling the glow additive makes the material slightly more dense so it might be difficult to maintain legal weights for glow candy destroyers

Hey Dave,

Can you tell me which innova disc(s) is comparable to the Sirius Orion LF?

Thanks as always!

Closest we have is a Viking (a good one) or maybe a FL. The Orion is really by itself.

I have a feeling the glow additive makes the material slightly more dense so it might be difficult to maintain legal weights for glow candy destroyers



This is correct.

Hey Dave,

Can you tell me which innova disc(s) is comparable to the Sirius Orion LF?

Thanks as always!

Closest we have is a Viking (a good one) or maybe a FL. The Orion is really by itself.



What do you look for in a "good one" Dave?

Do you mean a particular feel of a current production run, or some other run that you prefer?

pro FL is close. They are in a class by themselves. if I could only carry 1 driver, that would be it.

Or, here's a thought, just buy an OLF. Made by Innova, designed by Dave, and you're supporting another great group of guys at Millennium. :cool:

Hey Dave,

Can you tell me which innova disc(s) is comparable to the Sirius Orion LF?

Thanks as always!

Closest we have is a Viking (a good one) or maybe a FL. The Orion is really by itself.



Would it be fair to call it a faster Eagle?

Hey Dave,

Can you tell me which innova disc(s) is comparable to the Sirius Orion LF?

Thanks as always!

Closest we have is a Viking (a good one) or maybe a FL. The Orion is really by itself.



What do you look for in a "good one" Dave?

Do you mean a particular feel of a current production run, or some other run that you prefer?



All of the latest run are "good ones". Unfortunately early runs (except the first) were done with the non record or zip top. The record top was remade because of a tooling error that required shims. The "remake" was done wrong somehow, but it wasn't discovered for a couple of years when we were using it for TeeRexes and were dissatisfied with the results. We eventually got rid of that part, retooled, and are now doing fine. Unfortunately, the Viking got less than stellar reviews because we did not know what happened until later. I was playing the whole time with an original Viking and loving it. Others were playing with a disc that wasn't any more stable than a Valkyrie, and had less glide. No point in that.

Hey Dave,

Can you tell me which innova disc(s) is comparable to the Sirius Orion LF?

Thanks as always!

Closest we have is a Viking (a good one) or maybe a FL. The Orion is really by itself.



What do you look for in a "good one" Dave?

Do you mean a particular feel of a current production run, or some other run that you prefer?



We had a bad top for a year or so we didn't know about until we came out with the TeeRex. We have subsequently fixed it. Before, the "good" ones were the zipper tops.

Hey Dave,

Can you tell me which innova disc(s) is comparable to the Sirius Orion LF?

Thanks as always!

Closest we have is a Viking (a good one) or maybe a FL. The Orion is really by itself.



Would it be fair to call it a faster Eagle?



I think it would be fair.

Orion LF = $$$

Dave, what is a protostype overstable driver Tachyon LF comparable to? the store here has some and wondered what they are.

As I recall, it was closest to a Viper.

Lately ive been hearing that the star teebirds with TB on the bottom are more stable than the ones with T on the bottom. I have compared the two and the TBs look like they have a blunter edge to the rim. just wondering your thoughts on this..

Lately ive been hearing that the star teebirds with TB on the bottom are more stable than the ones with T on the bottom. I have compared the two and the TBs look like they have a blunter edge to the rim. just wondering your thoughts on this..



There is no difference between the marking TB or T. Just molder preference.

Dave, what is a protostype overstable driver Tachyon LF comparable to? the store here has some and wondered what they are.



Dave is on point with that response.......Joel Kelly carried it for years with Team Millennium....Big like a viper....flies like a whippet as well....that's what joel carries instead now.
:D

All of the latest run are "good ones". Unfortunately early runs (except the first) were done with the non record or zip top. The record top was remade because of a tooling error that required shims. The "remake" was done wrong somehow, but it wasn't discovered for a couple of years when we were using it for TeeRexes and were dissatisfied with the results. We eventually got rid of that part, retooled, and are now doing fine. Unfortunately, the Viking got less than stellar reviews because we did not know what happened until later. I was playing the whole time with an original Viking and loving it. Others were playing with a disc that wasn't any more stable than a Valkyrie, and had less glide. No point in that.



Were there any other discs produced at this time (aside from TeeRexes and Vikings) that were affected by the tooling error?

All of the latest run are "good ones". Unfortunately early runs (except the first) were done with the non record or zip top. The record top was remade because of a tooling error that required shims. The "remake" was done wrong somehow, but it wasn't discovered for a couple of years when we were using it for TeeRexes and were dissatisfied with the results. We eventually got rid of that part, retooled, and are now doing fine. Unfortunately, the Viking got less than stellar reviews because we did not know what happened until later. I was playing the whole time with an original Viking and loving it. Others were playing with a disc that wasn't any more stable than a Valkyrie, and had less glide. No point in that.



Were there any other discs produced at this time (aside from TeeRexes and Vikings) that were affected by the tooling error?



Yes, Starfires too.

Dave,

I recently "donated" my 2007 Golden State Wraith-X to a pond.

Are these still available? If not, what would be a suitable replacement?

Dave,
I recently "donated" my 2007 Golden State Wraith-X to a pond.

Are these still available? If not, what would be a suitable replacement?



If you are unable to find any Wraith Xs, I would recommend TeeRexs. There are normal molding variations for Champion Wraiths that can be quite stable too. These are usually fairly flat.

Yes, Starfires too.

That explains why the Champions were not as stable as the Star Starfires, so this has been fixed and the Champs are more stable now?

I hate my Starfire. It turns right so wrong.

Yes, Starfires too.

That explains why the Champions were not as stable as the Star Starfires, so this has been fixed and the Champs are more stable now?



Yes. The piece that was tooled improperly has been retooled into a different mold. We still have the original (zip top) and a properly made replacement.

Yes, Starfires too.

That explains why the Champions were not as stable as the Star Starfires, so this has been fixed and the Champs are more stable now?



Yes. The piece that was tooled improperly has been retooled into a different mold. We still have the original (zip top) and a properly made replacement.



How about the Champion SLs and Star SLs?

I have a very stable Champion SL with the '05 GSC surfboard stamp on it that I love -- and a couple of 05' US Masters champion SLs that seem to be much flipppier.

How about the Champion SLs and Star SLs?

I have a very stable Champion SL with the '05 GSC surfboard stamp on it that I love -- and a couple of 05' US Masters champion SLs that seem to be much flipppier.



Possible. However, it could be a molding variation also.

Dave,
Are classic cobras gone again? forever? Know of anything to fit that slot in my bag?
Thanks,

Dave,
Are classic cobras gone again? forever? Know of anything to fit that slot in my bag?
Thanks,


We are only making Classic type Cobras. We're just calling them Cobras. So, in other words, we still have plenty and are still making them. If we make any more of the Ontario Flattops in the future, we will refer to them separately.

Are condors ever going to be run again??? A bunch of people around here in Kentucky are wanting them

[QUOTE]
Dave,
Are classic cobras gone again? forever? Know of anything to fit that slot in my bag?
Thanks,


We are only making Classic type Cobras. We're just calling them Cobras. So, in other words, we still have plenty and are still making them. If we make any more of the Ontario Flattops in the future, we will refer to them separately. [/quote

Hi Dave,
Can I ask if they are 'Classic' Cobras in all plastics? Which I believe is only Pro and DX at this time? ]

Are condors ever going to be run again??? A bunch of people around here in Kentucky are wanting them



Yes, at some point. It's not yet scheduled.

Hi Dave,
Can I ask if they are 'Classic' Cobras in all plastics? Which I believe is only Pro and DX at this time? ]



We have DX in regular release and Star in CFR.

Dave,
Are classic cobras gone again? forever? Know of anything to fit that slot in my bag?
Thanks,


We are only making Classic type Cobras. We're just calling them Cobras. So, in other words, we still have plenty and are still making them. If we make any more of the Ontario Flattops in the future, we will refer to them separately.


Boo, hiss. (Since you made this decision, people must disagree with me) But, personally, I hate the way Classic Cobras feel in the hand because they are have a pointy nose and usually a sharp flashing. I just can't get used to the feel. I have a dx cobra and champ cobra and considering taking them out of the bag since they aren't going to be made anymore. That will be "adios" to the last of my Innova midranges.

ive been throwing practice rounds with a star ontario roc and an esp buzz as well as a champion cobra. ive been attempting to find a replacement for my champion cobra. after multiple rounds the cobra is still by far the most dependable mid range i throw period

Dave, in your mind, what is the most likely next disc to be made out of these choices:

Star Banshee
Star Gazelle
Champion Max

Also - is there a disc comparable to a gazelle (low profile, small diameter, medium stability) but a notch slower? Gazelles have a tendency to "get away" on fairway drives. It would be neat to see a true fairway driver that could be thrown hard without worry of going past the basket. Perfect for the long par 4 approach. Almost like a Cro, but not so tall and round feeling.

Thanks in advanced,
Dion

ps - we're almost to 300 pages, I think its time to start "ask Dave #4" thread.

try a champion monster for thatappraoch

The L mold or the X mold? Either way a monster is way to fast for what I'm looking for. I'm looking at the speed 4-6 spectrum of things, not speed 10. Closer to a DX Viper, but not large diameter and a bit less skip.

throw either one

slower

end result is similer to my kc pro gazzelle

The L mold or the X mold? Either way a monster is way to fast for what I'm looking for. I'm looking at the speed 4-6 spectrum of things, not speed 10. Closer to a DX Viper, but not large diameter and a bit less skip.



Bring back the Pegasus!!! A champion Pegasus would be a great overstable fairway driver. Those things would hole a line like no other into the wind - back in their day of course. People probably think im crazy... :confused: :eek:

DX Gremlin

The L mold or the X mold? Either way a monster is way to fast for what I'm looking for. I'm looking at the speed 4-6 spectrum of things, not speed 10. Closer to a DX Viper, but not large diameter and a bit less skip.



Bring back the Pegasus!!! A champion Pegasus would be a great overstable fairway driver. Those things would hole a line like no other into the wind - back in their day of course. People probably <font color="red">think </font> im crazy... :confused: :eek:



Think???

Boo, hiss. (Since you made this decision, people must disagree with me) But, personally, I hate the way Classic Cobras feel in the hand because they are have a pointy nose and usually a sharp flashing. I just can't get used to the feel. I have a dx cobra and champ cobra and considering taking them out of the bag since they aren't going to be made anymore. That will be "adios" to the last of my Innova midranges.

[/QUOTE]
These are the ones I thought I was referring to, the ones with the sharper wing. Are those the Ontario's? San Marino's? I lost my last one last week, so I can't check. I believe I got that stack in the mid to late 90's.

Dave, in your mind, what is the most likely next disc to be made out of these choices:

Star Banshee
Star Gazelle
Champion Max

Also - is there a disc comparable to a gazelle (low profile, small diameter, medium stability) but a notch slower? Gazelles have a tendency to "get away" on fairway drives. It would be neat to see a true fairway driver that could be thrown hard without worry of going past the basket. Perfect for the long par 4 approach. Almost like a Cro, but not so tall and round feeling.




Of the three discs you named, the Champion Max would be the most likely to be made first.

The fairway driver you are looking for is probably the Sniper aka Gremlin, really a long mid range. Another possibility is the Millenium EXP.

Boo, hiss. (Since you made this decision, people must disagree with me) But, personally, I hate the way Classic Cobras feel in the hand because they are have a pointy nose and usually a sharp flashing. I just can't get used to the feel. I have a dx cobra and champ cobra and considering taking them out of the bag since they aren't going to be made anymore. That will be "adios" to the last of my Innova midranges.


These are the ones I thought I was referring to, the ones with the sharper wing. Are those the Ontario's? San Marino's? I lost my last one last week, so I can't check. I believe I got that stack in the mid to late 90's.

[/QUOTE]

The Ontario Cobra is also referred to as the flat top. It has a slightly blunter nose. The San Marion type Cobra, (Classic/original) is more like a slightly more stable Stingray.

I found an ontario champ cobra in a play it again today. Anyone want to make an offer on it?

Also - is there a disc comparable to a gazelle (low profile, small diameter, medium stability) but a notch slower? Gazelles have a tendency to "get away" on fairway drives. It would be neat to see a true fairway driver that could be thrown hard without worry of going past the basket. Perfect for the long par 4 approach. Almost like a Cro, but not so tall and round feeling.



I'll echo the sentiment that you're describing the Pegasus -- great, slow upshot driver. Predictable hyzer at the end, and fights wind better than almost any other disc I know of. Flies best on a low, flat line about 4-8' off the ground, so it also works well for low-ceiling wooded holes.

If you can find a DX Pegasus, I'd recommend you try that. They have never been in high demand, so you may still be able to find a few at regular DX prices at online resellers if anyone still has them in stock. (I stocked up on about 10 of them 8-9 months ago when I learned they'd been discontinued.)

Dave: for the record, I would love, love, LOVE to see a Pegasus in Star or Echo plastic. The only thing I dislike about the Pegasus is that the DXs don't last forever -- especially when throwing them a lot in the woods. The edge is blunt and thick enough that they wear more slowly than most drivers, but it's still very sad to think of a day when I will have worn through all of my Pegasuses. (Pegasi?)

You can even rename it something else -- no one has to know that the Pegasus is back -- I think it was the girly picture of a winged horse on the disc that kept them from being popular in the first place.

If you're interested, we have a handful of DX Pegasus in stock in weights of 160, 161, 162, 170, 171 &amp; 172.

http://gottagogottathrow.com/discgolf/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=pegasus

Along with speed, glide, turn and fade I'd like to know the lift properties of the discs.

Along with speed, glide, turn and fade I'd like to know the lift properties of the discs.



Glide. What other lift properties?

If you're interested, we have a handful of DX Pegasus in stock in weights of 160, 161, 162, 170, 171 &amp; 172.

http://gottagogottathrow.com/discgolf/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=pegasus



Are you sure you've got the heavier weights? The Web site doesn't show any over 164g. And if you do have the 170+, what colors are they? thanks.

We have a total of 13 - here are the weights/colors:

1 red 160
2 white and 1 orange 162
1 grey 170
4 light blue and 1 grey 170
2 yellow and 1 light blue 172

if you'd like to order - just make a note in the comment section when checking out what color/weight you'd like!

Along with speed, glide, turn and fade I'd like to know the lift properties of the discs.



Glide. What other lift properties?



It just seems that some discs have a propensity to rise and others do not.

Along with speed, glide, turn and fade I'd like to know the lift properties of the discs.



Glide. What other lift properties?



It just seems that some discs have a propensity to rise and others do not.



That rising characteristic is part of glide. Because different discs have different operating speeds, glide is hard to quantify objectively. Also weight influences apparent glide quite a bit, as you probably know. We have used the term "carry" in the past, but it might be more ambiguous as it seems to imply a distance. However, we only mean... glide: how well the disc fights gravity in flight. Flight for drivers is much faster than for putters or mids. As a side note, you might have noticed that many drivers, thrown with a fast hyzer flip will sometimes rise at the apex of the throw in certain wind situations.

Along with speed, glide, turn and fade I'd like to know the lift properties of the discs.



Glide. What other lift properties?



It just seems that some discs have a propensity to rise and others do not.



That rising characteristic is part of glide. Because different discs have different operating speeds, glide is hard to quantify objectively. Also weight influences apparent glide quite a bit, as you probably know. We have used the term "carry" in the past, but it might be more ambiguous as it seems to imply a distance. However, we only mean... glide: how well the disc fights gravity in flight. Flight for drivers is much faster than for putters or mids. <font color="blue">As a side note, you might have noticed that many drivers, thrown with a fast hyzer flip will sometimes rise at the apex of the throw in certain wind situations. </font>



I see that "elevator" activity regularly, since I throw mostly lightweight (150-160g) drivers. Always good for a few "ooohs and aaaaahs."

[/QUOTE]
It just seems that some discs have a propensity to rise and others do not.

[/QUOTE]

That rising characteristic is part of glide. Because different discs have different operating speeds, glide is hard to quantify objectively. Also weight influences apparent glide quite a bit, as you probably know. We have used the term "carry" in the past, but it might be more ambiguous as it seems to imply a distance. However, we only mean... glide: how well the disc fights gravity in flight. Flight for drivers is much faster than for putters or mids. As a side note, you might have noticed that many drivers, thrown with a fast hyzer flip will sometimes rise at the apex of the throw in certain wind situations.

[/QUOTE]
What you're saying makes perfect sense. Thanks.

Dave,
I just purchased a CFR Whippet X. It was in a stack of white Star CFR Whippet X's, but it is red and is definitely champion plastic and although the white sticker said Star, the pen marking around the nipple that gives weight just says "WX" instead of a written star symbol with a "WX" next to it, which is what all the white ones had. It is a custom stamp for The Mob Series 2008 from Toledo Ohio. What gives? Are there champion Whippet X's being put out?
I would put a picture on here but I can't figure out how!

unless you have some freak disc it's gonna be a star. I have two CFR Whippet X's in my bag right now. One is absolutely star (pink 2008 Worlds). The other feels like a mix between star and champion and its a translucent pink/red color (Pyramids Double Stamp)... that one is deceiving but I would still call it star over champ.

I do know one thing for sure, the WX that is the mix feel is BUTTER.

Dave,
I just purchased a CFR Whippet X. It was in a stack of white Star CFR Whippet X's, but it is red and is definitely champion plastic and although the white sticker said Star, the pen marking around the nipple that gives weight just says "WX" instead of a written star symbol with a "WX" next to it, which is what all the white ones had. It is a custom stamp for The Mob Series 2008 from Toledo Ohio. What gives? Are there champion Whippet X's being put out?
I would put a picture on here but I can't figure out how!



I don't believe we have made any Champion Whippet Xs, (on purpose), so it must have been a transition disc or a goof by the operator.

Thanks. There were two of these red ones and neither had the star symbol written on them, but all the rest did. (my buddy got the other) I guess it will remain a mystery. It definitely isn't star plastic!

Thanks. There were two of these red ones and neither had the star symbol written on them, but all the rest did. (my buddy got the other) I guess it will remain a mystery. It definitely isn't star plastic!


PICTURES MAN-WE NEED PICTURES ! I want to see one :D

well, the one I have is this....

http://marshallstreetdiscgolf.com/prodimages/whippet_star_pyr_big.jpg

you can see how it is somewhat translucent, as the innova model sticker underneath and the ink "WX" is visible through the top.

When asked I say the disc is "sorta" star "sorta" champ, all BUTTER.

These had to be molded during some transition as its not 100% of either material.

OSUNURSE, I know what you are saying about it not being star, but until I see pics of your disc Im gonna say you have one like mine that is a WONDERFUL mix of both.

If I could get ten more of these at ~170g I'd buy them all right now as the Whippet X is the most consistent hyzer-approach/skip disc ever made. hands down.

How the heck do you post a picture on this thing??!! DO I have to have a website that it is on??

Interesting that your disc also is missing the handwritten star symbol that comes before the "WX" on the back. Maybe the guy that writes it was uncomfortable calling a disc star that is not! ;) :D

Ive got Orcs, Teebirds, XCs, and rocs in this stuff. Reb and blue seem to be the most abundant

I also have a WX and TL in the same plastic mix, both red.

Ive seen every Star disc look like that at some point. Some are just more clear than others, probably a lack of a something in the mix. Ive seen and for awhile owned a stack of Star Wraiths that were basically champion.

How the heck do you post a picture on this thing??!! DO I have to have a website that it is on??

Interesting that your disc also is missing the handwritten star symbol that comes before the "WX" on the back. Maybe the guy that writes it was uncomfortable calling a disc star that is not! ;) :D



Your pic has to be posted on the internet and have a unique URL web address. Use FlickR or Photobucket if you don't have your own web help.

I have a couple of the"Champ-Star" Wraiths and they are MONEY!
The most straight-stable Wraiths I have, and by far the longest for sweeping hyzer.

Dave,

Can you bring back the Pro Orc? The pro beast just isnt the same.

Dave,

Can you bring back the Pro Orc? The pro beast just isnt the same.



I'll second that request! ;)

Dave,

Can you bring back the Pro Orc? The pro beast just isnt the same.



I'll second that request! ;)



Probably not, as Pro Orc sales declined sharply after we came out with the Pro Wraith. But, anything is possible, especially if it is a special order by a large fundraiser like the Worlds.

I don't believe we have made any Champion Whippet Xs, (on purpose), so it must have been a transition disc or a goof by the operator.

Dave,
What is the reason for not producing more champ whippet x's? It is by far the best overstable mid ever made. I've tried the KC pro and star models but these plastics beat in too much for my liking. I've been rotating through a bunch of the stars because I don't feel like paying an arm and a leg for the Champ on Ebay. Please tell me the Champion Whippet X will return at some point. Thanks

Ok I can understand that. I just miss the lower weights that the Pro Orc was available in, seems to be a void now.

I don't believe we have made any Champion Whippet Xs, (on purpose), so it must have been a transition disc or a goof by the operator.

Dave,
What is the reason for not producing more champ whippet x's? It is by far the best overstable mid ever made. I've tried the KC pro and star models but these plastics beat in too much for my liking. I've been rotating through a bunch of the stars because I don't feel like paying an arm and a leg for the Champ on Ebay. Please tell me the Champion Whippet X will return at some point. Thanks



It will probably not return to regular, but may be done for special orders or fundraising.

Champ WX, Gummy Champ WX, and Glow Champ WX would all be ridiculously popular CFR models. That leaves plenty room to make the Star WX regular stock.

Regarding CFR Gummy Star Rhynos -- fantastic! Any chance a future run of Star Rhyno would be in a more flexy blend like these?

Gummy Champ WX


I just soiled myself.

Regarding the Monarch- how long have you been working on that type of mold with the ridge? Has this been in the works for a while or is it something you just came up with.

Thanks

dave, just got a cfr champ cro and used it the past two days, nice disc!

Champ WX, Gummy Champ WX, and Glow Champ WX would all be ridiculously popular CFR models. That leaves plenty room to make the Star WX regular stock.

Regarding CFR Gummy Star Rhynos -- fantastic! Any chance a future run of Star Rhyno would be in a more flexy blend like these?



Gummy Star and CE Rhynos are supposed to be flexy. I believe we have some Gummy Star Rhynos now.

Regarding the Monarch- how long have you been working on that type of mold with the ridge? Has this been in the works for a while or is it something you just came up with.

Thanks



I have been working with it for several years. The Dolphin was the first effort several years ago. Next was a disc we made for Japan a couple of years ago that led directly to the Monarch.

ive witnessed a beautiful ace throw with the monarch.
slightly understable early flight stable center flight overstable finish smashing the chains and stuck

Dave,
I collect Inncolors and would like to see the entire gallery return to the website. Possible?
Thanks

Dave,
I collect Inncolors and would like to see the entire gallery return to the website. Possible?
Thanks



I didn't know it was gone. Maybe it was taken down when we started switching over to a different type of INNColor. We will probably put a gallery back up when we are back doing INNColor completely. Right now, I believe most of it is being done on the East coast.

Help. i love the kc roc for all mid shots. but i have a weakness. a low ceiling straight 300 to 350 shot and a 340-370 anhyzer with no room to sweep left.. so i need a mid that i can pump low ceiling and a pretty good distance anyhyzer that will not stable out? my kc roc with work for the any but sometimes fades out... i cant seem to get the roc to throw on the low ceiling...only weakness of the roc for me.
i thought about cobra, i have a buzz but it also fades out and usually is to long for the shot om looking for?
cobra, kite, coyote, dx roc?

Help. i love the kc roc for all mid shots. but i have a weakness. a low ceiling straight 300 to 350 shot and a 340-370 anhyzer with no room to sweep left.. so i need a mid that i can pump low ceiling and a pretty good distance anyhyzer that will not stable out? my kc roc with work for the any but sometimes fades out... i cant seem to get the roc to throw on the low ceiling...only weakness of the roc for me.
i thought about cobra, i have a buzz but it also fades out and usually is to long for the shot om looking for?
cobra, kite, coyote, dx roc?



If you want similarity to the Roc, the Champion or Star Coyote is the best best along with the Ontario Roc. Another possibility, using a smaller diameter disc, is the Skeeter.

Help. i love the kc roc for all mid shots. but i have a weakness. a low ceiling straight 300 to 350 shot and a 340-370 anhyzer with no room to sweep left.. so i need a mid that i can pump low ceiling and a pretty good distance anyhyzer that will not stable out? my kc roc with work for the any but sometimes fades out... i cant seem to get the roc to throw on the low ceiling...only weakness of the roc for me.
i thought about cobra, i have a buzz but it also fades out and usually is to long for the shot om looking for?
cobra, kite, coyote, dx roc?



I am no Dave D, but it sounds like you need and Ontario or a San Marino Roc.

I use my San Marino (re-issue) all the time. Especially for long anhyzers and straight shots....

Get a Dx San Marino roc and don't look back.

DX cobra works great.

ok sounds good, i would rather stay with the roc if i can find this "shot" im looking for. but when i look to buy a roc, i usually see kc, star or ch...how do i ask for a san marino, or ontario??? just buy a dx or do i need to specify..?
i see people talking about these rocs all the time. i currently throw 3 diff beat KC rocs and 1 champion roc for windy and hyzers.
thanks guys for the info.

will the coyote hold a good any line? like a beat roc?, i find all my rocs need a good high ceiling. and also how will it handle a flat low release, (low ceiling).?

They are marked on the bottom of the disc...

On your KC Rocs, on the bottom, you will see Rancho Cucamonga California.

That is called a Ranco roc. All KC Pro's are ranchos but not all ranchos are KC Pros... Haha!

There are three main types of rocs, Rancho (overstable)

San Marino (Stable[straight])

And Ontario (more understable[right turning for right handed players])

So I think what you are looking for is a roc that isn't too different from the Rancho, like I think the coyote would be, but still has more turn in the flight so it can be thrown in low ceiling and infinite other instances = San Marino or Ontario if that doesn't work. :p

I have had a Champ Rancho in the bag for over 2 years, a Star Ontario since January when we got them for our Ice Bowl. Love them both.

But they both do want a little more height to do their respective things. For staying straight and low I've used Champ Panthers for quite some time and they do just what I want. Hold that straight, low line for a long time. Will flip if you wish (or when I screw up), but thrown properly it's the disc that I use that you seem to be asking for.

Skeeters are great also, but do seem to like a little more height or float. Most neutral disc I have.

Add a Gremlin and you have my mid-game discs.

What about a speed 6 fairway driver like a gazelle or something? I know they're old school, but a broken in gazelle (or cheetah out of the box) is a thing of beauty.

I think a lot of Innova pros use a Leopard for this shot as well. 370' is starting to get out there for a leopard or gazelle for me, but I'm not sure I'd try to drive that kind of line. I rather put it 330' and make a putt.

Hello Dave,

2 questions?\

1.Have you ever made a disc or had an idea for a disc while playing or just for a course that you played? Where you thought if you had a disc that did this that would be great?

2. Are there any plans to make an understable or slighty understable mid range? I loved the Champion Panther and thats what I used but it is discontinued and now the only thing i use that is like it are the other companies mid ranges.

Hello Dave,

2 questions?\

1.Have you ever made a disc or had an idea for a disc while playing or just for a course that you played? Where you thought if you had a disc that did this that would be great?

Yes, from the beginning. That is where 90% of the designs originate. From my playing experience and what would be good to have in certain situations.

2. Are there any plans to make an understable or slighty understable mid range? I loved the Champion Panther and thats what I used but it is discontinued and now the only thing i use that is like it are the other companies mid ranges.



I don't know that I understand this question as we have several slightly understable mids. The Panther is still in production in Champion plastic too. The Stingray, Cobra, Wolf are somewhat understable. The DX Ontario, DX Kite, DX Coyote, DX Skeeter will all wear into slightly turning mids fairly quickly.

Innova east has been out of the champion panthers for a while now, I wish they could get some more.

The West is best!!! :D

Dave, I love the Panther in Champion plastic and I am glad to hear that it is not out of production. I guess I can stop hoarding them.

I have a couple of questions:
1. Why do you think the Panther has not been as highly regarded as other INNOVA mids?
2. What is the likelihood of a future run of Panthers in gummy Champion plastic?
3. Any plans to produce the Panther in Star?

To those that have not thrown a Panther I have this to say:

I think a lot of players who swear by the Buzzz would love this disc. I have never felt the Buzzz Roc comparison was completely fair due to the different hand feel and flight characteristics.

To me the Panther feels great in the hand, holds any line I put it on and is longer than a Roc.

But those are all old school understable mids I was wondering if you have any new understable mids in the plan. And I have tried those others in DX but dont think the feel is great with exception of a skeeter, is the star sdeeter more understable than the DX?

Dave, I love the Panther in Champion plastic and I am glad to hear that it is not out of production. I guess I can stop hoarding them.

I have a couple of questions:
1. Why do you think the Panther has not been as highly regarded as other INNOVA mids? Too much competition form other discs, and it was one of the few smaller diameters mids when it came out. The established mids were mostly 180 type like the Cobra, Stingray, Roc, and Shark.

2. What is the likelihood of a future run of Panthers in gummy Champion plastic?

Fairly good.

3. Any plans to produce the Panther in Star?

No.

But those are all old school understable mids I was wondering if you have any new understable mids in the plan. And I have tried those others in DX but dont think the feel is great with exception of a skeeter, is the star sdeeter more understable than the DX?



I think the DX Skeeter starts a little more stable than the Star. The Star starts fairly straight and would need a little work to get it to turn.

so the new big question...

will there be a new signature disc?
and which mold will bear the name?

The Dave Feldberg 1x Star Destroyer ;)

Or better yet... DF Pro Destroyers!

Dave, what are the tech differences of the coyote and roc characteristics. they seem so similar...?

Dave, is dx the farthest flying plastic? why?
i have a pro Destroyer that out flys and glides all my other disc, with exception of my TL on a perfect tail wind shot.
i have thrown a champion destroyer that was domey..it seemed to fly as far as my Pro. so my question; is it the dome that equals crazy distance (pro are most domey) or is it the plastic actually making disc fly / glide farther?
Why..
dx dont have dome?
pro are most domey?
champion some flat some domey?

What do Dave Feld and the big arms prefer?
Pro Destroyer / Champ / Dx

When should we expect Valarie Jenkins' first signature disc? Jason

What do Dave Feld and the big arms prefer?
Pro Destroyer / Champ / Dx


I've noticed that a lot of the top guys are going with the Eco XC more than the Destroyer..

What do Dave Feld and the big arms prefer?
Pro Destroyer / Champ / Dx



I got to play with Dave quite a bit and I can say that he does use the Eco Excaliber a lot.

But his destroyers were all star plastic.

As they should be... ;)

I actually entered a slump because of the Pro Destroyer.... :D

Dave, what are the tech differences of the coyote and roc characteristics. they seem so similar...?



The Coyote is based on the Rancho Roc, but doesn't fly like it at all. The Rancho Roc is high speed stable and more low speed overstable than the Coyote. The Coyote has a slight high speed turn and lower fade than the Rancho Roc. On the other hand, the Ontario Roc is similar to the Coyote, having a slight high speed turn and less overstability than the Rancho. The San Marino Roc has high speed stability and less fade than the Rancho, but more than the Coyote or Ontario.

Dave, is dx the farthest flying plastic? why?
i have a pro Destroyer that out flys and glides all my other disc, with exception of my TL on a perfect tail wind shot.
i have thrown a champion destroyer that was domey..it seemed to fly as far as my Pro. so my question; is it the dome that equals crazy distance (pro are most domey) or is it the plastic actually making disc fly / glide farther?
Why..
dx dont have dome?
pro are most domey?
champion some flat some domey?



Part of what makes a particular disc fly the way it does, is material and molding. Another part is the feel of the disc. Many players get a better grip on DX. DX discs come in lighter weights. Assuming the disc has shaped up equally from material to material, (not a good assumption), the disc that feels the best will usually go the farthest. Unless the disc doesn't fit the thrower's style. Hyzer throwers need unstable drivers and anhyzer throwers need stable or overstable drivers. In other words, there in no one answer.

What do Dave Feld and the big arms prefer?
Pro Destroyer / Champ / Dx



I don't think there is any consensus though most do not throw DX drivers, (except in distance contests, where they might).

I have a couple of questions:
1. Why do you think the Panther has not been as highly regarded as other INNOVA mids?



<font color="blue"> for me the Panther turns too quickly -- when thrown with power. </font>


To those that have not thrown a Panther I have this to say:

I think a lot of players who swear by the Buzzz would love this disc. I have never felt the Buzzz Roc comparison was completely fair due to the different hand feel and flight characteristics.

To me the Panther feels great in the hand, holds any line I put it on and is longer than a Roc.



<font color="blue"> I think Buzzz lovers would like the Millenium QMS or Sirius MS or Aurora MS (made of course by Innova). The Aurora is the Pro plastic version and is a little more Comet like (more glide and turn) while the QMS (champion plastic version) i think is superior to the Z Buzzz and pre-dates it by quite a bit. I think the MS is the most under-rated mid-range ever made. If anyone has any old opaque QMS's they want to trade -- shoot me a PM :D</font>

If anyone has any old opaque QMS's they want to trade -- shoot ZAMson a PM :D


fixed! :D

2. What is the likelihood of a future run of Panthers in gummy Champion plastic?

Fairly good.







I can't believe I'm beating Vegan Ray to this:

Gummy Champ Panters!! Drool, drool!!!!

Bring-em on!

BTW, I recently added a gummy QMS to my bag. It has the most amazing ability to hold an anhyzer line without flipping of fading than any disc I have ever thrown.

More gummy!!!!!

If anyone has any old opaque QMS's they want to trade -- shoot [censored] a PM :D


fixed! :D



you son of a :mad:... well ... at least you have great taste in discs! :D

Allen,

Shall we discuss Triple Crown of Ice Bowls business here? Gummy Champ Panthers custom-stamped for fundraiser discs?

We'll have a lot of them flying at baskets here at home in SoCal. I'd buy quite a few. And I'm sure we could sell Ray a few as well.

Add me to the list of those salivating at the prospect...