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davei
Jun 22 2007, 11:58 AM
Sniper aka Gremlin is now on the approved list.

accidentalROLLER
Jun 22 2007, 12:06 PM
Dave,
What can you tell us about the CRO?



Dave, why does Colin ask so many questions? :D


Because Colin is very inquisitive by nature, that's why he does research in the sciences.....plus, since he can't play, he has nothing better to do (not true).

m_conners
Jun 22 2007, 12:29 PM
Just bustin your chops, Collin...get that knee better because you know Dave D is going to release a faster, more stable, better grip, speed driver very soon :p afterall it is Innova :D

accidentalROLLER
Jun 22 2007, 12:32 PM
That's fine, you guys can have it. I can't grip those things anyway; the rim is too wide. I'm just gonna learn to throw teebirds/predators 500ft.

davei
Jun 22 2007, 01:08 PM
Dave,
What can you tell us about the CRO?



The Star Cro is a long mid-range 168-175gms. It flies in stability similar to a Shark/Roc, but faster with less glide. It can be used backhand or sidearm.

MichaelWebster
Jun 22 2007, 02:18 PM
The Star Cro is a long mid-range 168-175gms. It flies in stability similar to a Shark/Roc, but faster with less glide. It can be used backhand or sidearm.



is this a new disc, when will it be released if its new?

davei
Jun 22 2007, 03:05 PM
The Star Cro is a long mid-range 168-175gms. It flies in stability similar to a Shark/Roc, but faster with less glide. It can be used backhand or sidearm.



is this a new disc, when will it be released if its new?



This is a new disc that will be mass released the first part of July. I don't have the exact date yet. Samples are being sent to our team members today. Stock is being sent to the east coast office today.

TonyClifton
Jun 22 2007, 03:25 PM
Hey Dave,

What flight ratings would you give this disc?

davei
Jun 22 2007, 04:12 PM
Hey Dave,

What flight ratings would you give this disc?


5,3,0,2

TonyClifton
Jun 22 2007, 04:14 PM
Those numbers look a lot like the Gremlin's if I remember correctly? Is this disc similar to the Gremlin in flight?

davei
Jun 22 2007, 06:41 PM
Those numbers look a lot like the Gremlin's if I remember correctly? Is this disc similar to the Gremlin in flight?



The Cro might be similar in flight, but I would guess the Gremlin is a little faster and slightly more overstable. I don't have the discs to compare where I am now, but the Gremlin resembles more of a fairway driver and the Cro, which has a little deeper and beefier rim, is a mid-range.

ck34
Jun 22 2007, 06:49 PM
Crows are attracted to shiny metal items like, hopefully, baskets. :cool:

JackCO
Jun 22 2007, 08:49 PM
Cro, Roc, Orc....hmmm

ck34
Jun 22 2007, 09:01 PM
It's COR technology, baby!

bschweberger
Jun 23 2007, 09:50 AM
I have thrown the Cro, I threw it hard with a flat release and and it held a dead straight line for about 320 feet. threw it 10 times and it did the same thing every time. Feeels great in the hand, might also be used as a puTTer.

dgdave
Jun 23 2007, 10:02 AM
will the cro be released in DX plastic?

davei
Jun 23 2007, 11:38 PM
will the cro be released in DX plastic?



Not right away. We have to test it first to see if it will work in DX, or any other material.

Ackerman
Jun 25 2007, 12:22 AM
star dragons????

JHBlader86
Jun 25 2007, 01:06 AM
Anyway to get some pics of this disc?

davei
Jun 25 2007, 08:47 AM
star dragons????



Not possible. Star plastic's specific gravity is too high.

davei
Jun 25 2007, 08:50 AM
Anyway to get some pics of this disc?



Hopefully, within a few days on our website.

quickdisc
Jun 25 2007, 06:39 PM
Hey Dave ,

Donny Olow here.

Just wanted to Thank You very much for creating the Star Whippet !!!!!

I just purchased a few here :

https://www.discgolfvalues.com/store/vie...873ba01d00351b4 (https://www.discgolfvalues.com/store/view_product.php?product=CFR_WPX&PHPSESSID=476111d 7a7d6825fc873ba01d00351b4)

Very Fun , Overstable disc in Gripable plastic !!!!!!

Love it !!!!!!

Thanks again !!!!!

Donny Olow

Ackerman
Jun 25 2007, 10:32 PM
Are the Gator X's going to ever be run in Star? And are Ontario Rocs going to be put into normal retail production? If so, would they have the same stamp as the Ranchos?

davei
Jun 26 2007, 04:20 PM
Are the Gator X's going to ever be run in Star? And are Ontario Rocs going to be put into normal retail production? If so, would they have the same stamp as the Ranchos?



Sorry, I don't know the answer to either of these right now. I would guess the Star Gator Xs will be produced at some point. I don't know about the Ontarios.

mf100forever
Jun 29 2007, 06:31 PM
Dave,
what kind of driver is the Destroyer?
Available when?

davei
Jun 29 2007, 06:36 PM
Dave,
what kind of driver is the Destroyer?
Available when?



Long range driver. It won't be available for at least 4 weeks, probably longer unless we get lucky.

JHBlader86
Jun 29 2007, 11:18 PM
Can you describe the flight characteristics of the Destroyer or is it being kept secret?

Thunder3434
Jun 30 2007, 01:39 AM
http://www.innovadiscs.com/discs/starcro.html
Try this for the Cro

mf100forever
Jun 30 2007, 06:33 AM
Dave,
what kind of driver is the Destroyer?
Available when?



Long range driver. It won't be available for at least 4 weeks, probably longer unless we get lucky.



Thanx Dave, I second that question from "Son of the dude" (I love that "B L-movie" by the way), how does it fly? Ratings, seems to be developed from TeeRex, Max ?
Which plastic will it be available in first?

davei
Jun 30 2007, 10:07 AM
Can you describe the flight characteristics of the Destroyer or is it being kept secret?



It is still in the experimental stage. We are aiming for a faster Wraith like driver. We still have some tweaking to do.

T Wrecks
Jun 30 2007, 11:40 AM
Dave,
Were all of the special edition soft rhynos made in Ontario, or was there also a run in Rancho?

davei
Jun 30 2007, 04:18 PM
Dave,
Were all of the special edition soft rhynos made in Ontario, or was there also a run in Rancho?



I'm not sure if there was a Special Edition run in the Rancho mold, but I wouldn't rule it out. There have been runs, I just don't remember the plastic type.

davei
Jun 30 2007, 04:20 PM
Which plastic will it be available in first?


Star will be the first. We might try Pro too.

dgdave
Jun 30 2007, 10:28 PM
Dave,

I noticed in an earlier post that you said the destroyer is still in the experimental stages. If this is true, how is it already PDGA approved?

davei
Jul 01 2007, 10:10 AM
Dave,

I noticed in an earlier post that you said the destroyer is still in the experimental stages. If this is true, how is it already PDGA approved?



It was approved as it was. We will resubmit it when we are done tweaking it. In any case, it won't be ready again for several weeks. The debut will most likely miss both Am and Pro Worlds.

tokyo
Jul 01 2007, 05:52 PM
Hey Mitch Mac just gave away a Star Whippet X with a Pole Cat stamp on it. Are these only misprints, fundraisers, or will they be mainstream discs??

davei
Jul 01 2007, 09:31 PM
Hey Mitch Mac just gave away a Star Whippet X with a Pole Cat stamp on it. Are these only misprints, fundraisers, or will they be mainstream discs??



Fundraisers. Mitch got one to try out.

LastBoyScout
Jul 01 2007, 10:14 PM
Hi Dave, are there any plans for re-releasing the innova ram? I had the chance to throw an old dx version, and would love to see either a new run of this disc either CFR or even dx. Is this something that could be ordered as a CFR or TFR disc?

sillycybe
Jul 01 2007, 11:31 PM
here's a better view of the rim of the star cro

http://www.esdgc.com/pics/star_cro_main.jpg

Thunder3434
Jul 01 2007, 11:42 PM
Hey Dave to you think if Dave Feldberg win the title this year. Will Innova will put out a disc with his name on it if so what would you think it would be?

cbdiscpimp
Jul 01 2007, 11:59 PM
here's a better view of the rim of the star cro

http://www.esdgc.com/pics/star_cro_main.jpg



So how many players on the team asked for a disc that was like the BUZZZ before this disc came out???

JRauch
Jul 02 2007, 12:41 AM
here's a better view of the rim of the star cro

http://www.esdgc.com/pics/star_cro_main.jpg



So how many players on the team asked for a disc that was like the BUZZZ before this disc came out???



I am guessing about the same amount of discraft players still asking for a Teebird :eek:

mf100forever
Jul 02 2007, 04:58 AM
here's a better view of the rim of the star cro

http://www.esdgc.com/pics/star_cro_main.jpg



So how many players on the team asked for a disc that was like the BUZZZ before this disc came out???



I am guessing about the same amount of discraft players still asking for a Teebird :eek:



:D:D

mf100forever
Jul 02 2007, 06:14 AM
Hi Dave,
can you tell me about more about this less stable Banshee (BL), when was it produced and how many discs, any chance that they will come in production?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vie...p;rd=1&rd=1 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=019&sspagename=STRK%3AME WA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=290134626103&rd=1&rd=1)

davei
Jul 02 2007, 08:10 AM
Hi Dave, are there any plans for re-releasing the innova ram? I had the chance to throw an old dx version, and would love to see either a new run of this disc either CFR or even dx. Is this something that could be ordered as a CFR or TFR disc?



We are currently out, but we do occasionally do make short runs. I am not sure who to ask for one right now.

discette
Jul 02 2007, 08:21 AM
here's a better view of the rim of the star cro

http://www.esdgc.com/pics/star_cro_main.jpg



So how many players on the team asked for a disc that was like the BUZZZ before this disc came out???





Not one team member has ever asked for any Discraft discs.





They seem pretty happy with their Rocs.

davei
Jul 02 2007, 08:27 AM
Hi Dave,
can you tell me about more about this less stable Banshee (BL), when was it produced and how many discs, any chance that they will come in production?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vie...p;rd=1&rd=1 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=019&sspagename=STRK%3AME WA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=290134626103&rd=1&rd=1)



This is for real. It was a prototype for the EXP, I believe. I am not sure about the plastic, but the mold became the EXP.

bschweberger
Jul 02 2007, 09:42 AM
here's a better view of the rim of the star cro

http://www.esdgc.com/pics/star_cro_main.jpg



So how many players on the team asked for a disc that was like the BUZZZ before this disc came out???



I am guessing about the same amount of discraft players still asking for a Teebird :eek:

Definitely not like the Buzz, it is not that fast, it does not fly that far either.

xterramatt
Jul 02 2007, 09:44 AM
How would YOU know? :)

keithjohnson
Jul 02 2007, 10:19 AM
he puts on his fake beard and glasses and goes down to kilbourne and asks all the newbies if they can guess how far he can throw the buzzz with a thumber...takes fivers from the newbies all the time with that trick :D

Erroneous
Jul 02 2007, 10:22 AM
seems like it would be faster cause its smaller, and probably less glide...
Maybe like a straighter spider???

I've never thrown a buzz, only rocs and theres no need for imposters. ;)

Greatzky2
Jul 02 2007, 11:41 AM
i wouldn't classify the buzzz as an impostor, but since you've never thrown them that would explain why you did so. it's definately it's own disc and I don't find them to be like rocs.

-Scott Lewis

Erroneous
Jul 02 2007, 11:51 AM
yeah that explains it.... good job

DSproAVIAR
Jul 02 2007, 12:31 PM
i wouldn't classify the buzzz as an impostor, but since you've never thrown them that would explain why you did so. it's definately it's own disc and I don't find them to be like rocs.

-Scott Lewis


The buzzz mold is unique. The wasp was the copy of the roc. The buzzz is a beadless wasp. Innova doesn't have a beadless roc mold. Of course they have the coyote, skeeter, etc. that will fly like a beadless roc, but the buzzz is not a copy of any Innova disc.

hallp
Jul 02 2007, 01:40 PM
IS IT GOING TO BE LIKE THE METEOR??? AN UNDERSTABLE SLOW TURNER??? OR IS IT STABLE??
AND WHAT ARE PEOPLE THINKING ABOUT THE NEW STAR GREMLIN??????

rocguy77
Jul 02 2007, 03:02 PM
anyplace we can get our hands on those new champion wraiths? when?

davei
Jul 02 2007, 05:17 PM
anyplace we can get our hands on those new champion wraiths? when?



They are scheduled to be available today. Check with zonedriven.

sun_king
Jul 03 2007, 02:28 AM
Or you can save a few $ and pre-order them from Sun King Disc Sports HERE (http://sunkingdiscs.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=1048).

widiscgolf
Jul 03 2007, 08:40 AM
You can also get them at Disc Golf Values from Mark.

www.discgolfvalues.com (https://www.discgolfvalues.com/store/view_product.php?product=CE_WR)

20460chase
Jul 03 2007, 10:46 AM
You can also get our Innova/ IL Star stamp on them in about a week to a week in a half. Or, I guess you could have a standard factory stamp.


Dave, do you throw the Champion Wraith?

skaZZirf
Jul 03 2007, 11:28 AM
An 11 year old just threw the Champ. Wraith 484 ft....

JDesrosier
Jul 03 2007, 11:36 AM
I have had people tell me that the 9x kc pro eagles are flippy for an eagle. Can I expect this same amount of flippieness from a 9X Gazelle compared to a regular gazelle, or se gazelle? Thanks

davei
Jul 03 2007, 01:23 PM
You can also get our Innova/ IL Star stamp on them in about a week to a week in a half. Or, I guess you could have a standard factory stamp.


Dave, do you throw the Champion Wraith?



No. I throw Star Wraiths about 165gms.

davei
Jul 03 2007, 01:26 PM
I have had people tell me that the 9x kc pro eagles are flippy for an eagle. Can I expect this same amount of flippieness from a 9X Gazelle compared to a regular gazelle, or se gazelle? Thanks



i don't really know, but Eagles have been run in two types. The normal type is L and is less high speed stable than the X type. Gazelles only come in one type.

pastor keith
Jul 03 2007, 11:25 PM
Hey Dave

Where can I find a Gremlin at about 160 gm.?

pastor keith

socalsprtsbum19
Jul 04 2007, 01:09 AM
here's a better view of the rim of the star cro

http://www.esdgc.com/pics/star_cro_main.jpg



So how many players on the team asked for a disc that was like the BUZZZ before this disc came out???



I am guessing about the same amount of discraft players still asking for a Teebird :eek:



It's called an Avenger.

michaeljo
Jul 04 2007, 11:09 AM
[QUOTE]
here's a better view of the rim of the star cro

http://www.esdgc.com/pics/star_cro_main.jpg



So how many players on the team asked for a disc that was like the BUZZZ before this disc came out???



I am guessing about the same amount of discraft players still asking for a Teebird :eek:



i dont know about that but this one is about to take the rest of my rocs out of the bag that the coyote left in. this one is right up my alley
mj

Thunder3434
Jul 04 2007, 06:51 PM
Hey Dave do you think if Dave Feldberg wins the title this year. Will Innova will put out a disc with his name on it if so what would you think it would be?



Hey Dave maybe with all the cro talk you missed my question but here it is again.

thatdirtykid
Jul 04 2007, 11:00 PM
the teebird is a beat x pred or x talon. They stay stable forever (just get straighter and straighter). But who wants a 1 trick pony control driver (that just goes straight). Throw a Gazelle, XL or cyclone. You will be happier.

davei
Jul 05 2007, 07:57 AM
Hey Dave

Where can I find a Gremlin at about 160 gm.?

pastor keith



We don't have any. You could try Mark at discgolfvalues.com, but he's on vacation for another week right now.

davei
Jul 05 2007, 07:59 AM
Hey Dave do you think if Dave Feldberg wins the title this year. Will Innova will put out a disc with his name on it if so what would you think it would be?



Hey Dave maybe with all the cro talk you missed my question but here it is again.



Not likely. The other signatures had multiple world and us titles.

thediscinmusician
Jul 05 2007, 08:34 AM
Hey Dave,
I got a Champion Aviar made in San Marino. It can't be no more than 4 of 5 years old. Any money or rarity to that disc. Is that where all Aviars are made? And is it true Champ Aviars are OOP?

DOC65
Jul 05 2007, 09:14 AM
And is it true Champ Aviars are OOP?



What does OOP mean? :confused:

rollinghedge
Jul 05 2007, 09:46 AM
Out Of Production

DOC65
Jul 05 2007, 10:31 AM
Out Of Production



:cool:

dgdave
Jul 05 2007, 12:12 PM
All the aviar molds are San Marino. and as far as I know the are oop except maybe the 150 class for starter sets. not for sure on that. and not worth a bunch, unless 2 people really want it and start a bidding war.

bigbadude
Jul 05 2007, 12:35 PM
Why is plastic so expensive?

davei
Jul 05 2007, 12:51 PM
Hey Dave,
I got a Champion Aviar made in San Marino. It can't be no more than 4 of 5 years old. Any money or rarity to that disc. Is that where all Aviars are made? And is it true Champ Aviars are OOP?



We have two Aviar cores, which is the piece with the engraving on it. The core we usually use with the P&A says www.innovadiscs.com. (http://www.innovadiscs.com.) The BB, KC, and JK are done with the San Marino if the www is in use already.

The only collectable cores would be the original engraving or no engraving, I believe.

The Champion Aviar can be done with either core and still are in production in 165 -168 gms.

crusher
Jul 05 2007, 12:51 PM
The Star Cro is a solid disc. It is exactly a combo of the Roc/Shark. Very stable high speed mid range that you can control.

The Star Whippet is extremely stable, and after I break it in it should be pretty sweet.

davei
Jul 05 2007, 12:59 PM
Why is plastic so expensive?



If you mean plastic pellets, it's oil prices. If you mean what we charge dealers, then DX has been the same for about 24 year. Star and Champion are more expensive because the plastic is more expensive, there is more equipment required, the cycles are longer and the reject rate is much higher.

bigbadude
Jul 05 2007, 03:42 PM
Why can't you recycle plastic?

davei
Jul 05 2007, 04:07 PM
Why can't you recycle plastic?



You can, if you are talking about reject parts, but it has to be segmented by type and color, then reprocessed into pellets. That takes additional time and money.

ChunkyleeChong
Jul 05 2007, 04:08 PM
Will any of the new Champion Wraiths come through with the proto star stamp?

luckyg71
Jul 05 2007, 04:44 PM
A mix between a shark and a roc would be sweet. I love my champion sharks.

davei
Jul 05 2007, 09:27 PM
Will any of the new Champion Wraiths come through with the proto star stamp?



Just the regular stamp, as far as I know.

Alex_wells
Jul 07 2007, 01:29 AM
Dave,
This may have already been asked but i couldn't find anything about it so my question is this, are there going to be any changes to the 12x kc aviar mold for future runs? It would be great to make them a little flatter more like the old 11x's.
The 11x's are getting harder and harder to find.
I love the former runs of kc aviars but the new 12x discs just aren't the same.
Thanks

davei
Jul 07 2007, 08:57 AM
Dave,
This may have already been asked but i couldn't find anything about it so my question is this, are there going to be any changes to the 12x kc aviar mold for future runs? It would be great to make them a little flatter more like the old 11x's.
The 11x's are getting harder and harder to find.
I love the former runs of kc aviars but the new 12x discs just aren't the same.
Thanks



By mold, I assume you mean the run. The mold hasn't been changed. The latest run is quite a bit flatter. Nothing we tried to do. Just the way they are coming out. These will be available as soon as they are stamped and sent. Probably two weeks or so.

sun_king
Jul 07 2007, 11:34 AM
Dave,
I see the Monster-X (http://sunkingdiscs.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=1050) was run again, I thought that the mold was shelfed because it was too overstable?

Thanks,
Mike

davei
Jul 07 2007, 04:06 PM
Dave,
I see the Monster-X (http://sunkingdiscs.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=1050) was run again, I thought that the mold was shelfed because it was too overstable?

Thanks,
Mike



The Star is the regular Monster and the Champion is the X version.

pinseekers
Jul 07 2007, 08:17 PM
Dave just wondering if a Champion Glow Rhyno could ever happen ?

Drew32
Jul 07 2007, 11:33 PM
Dave,
I see the Monster-X (http://sunkingdiscs.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=1050) was run again, I thought that the mold was shelfed because it was too overstable?

Thanks,
Mike



The Star is the regular Monster and the Champion is the X version.



Wait, what? I thought you weren't running the X mold again :eek:

tokyo
Jul 07 2007, 11:46 PM
Dave,
I see the Monster-X (http://sunkingdiscs.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=1050) was run again, I thought that the mold was shelfed because it was too overstable?

Thanks,
Mike



The Star is the regular Monster and the Champion is the X version.



Wait, what? I thought you weren't running the X mold again :eek:



Yeah I thought all the molds were the L mold?? Champ glo Rhyno would be sweet.

xterramatt
Jul 07 2007, 11:53 PM
Champion Monster X is the MONEY. Very happy it's back. Especially in the sub 170 range.

sun_king
Jul 08 2007, 12:55 AM
You can save a few $ and pre-order the Innova Star Cro (http://www.sunkingdiscs.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=1572)

davei
Jul 08 2007, 05:22 PM
Dave just wondering if a Champion Glow Rhyno could ever happen ?



Yes, we can do Champion glow, but not Star.

denny1210
Jul 08 2007, 05:46 PM
OK, I've never been much of a disc wish list kinda guy. There's lots of choices out there and I like almost every disc I pick up. All I need in the bag is an array of stabilities and speeds with no major gaps and minimal overlap and I'm good to go . . . but, I have to admit that I've always secretly wanted Rhynos in the KC Roc/Aviar plastic.

gokayaksteven
Jul 08 2007, 06:13 PM
try a white dx rhyno. the ones i have had felt as stiff as the stiff KC plastic

Discbrat
Jul 08 2007, 06:46 PM
I have secretly always wanted a Gator X in JK Avair plastic................

widiscgolf
Jul 08 2007, 08:42 PM
http://cgi.ebay.com/420-Roc-Big-Bird-Dye...1QQcmdZViewItem (http://cgi.ebay.com/420-Roc-Big-Bird-Dyed-Champion-ORC-Golf-disc-175g_W0QQitemZ270142032858QQihZ017QQcategoryZ79804 QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)


I looked at this auction today and was not liking the image it took and twisted it.

Isn't that your old school original big bird hot stamp Dave?

denny1210
Jul 08 2007, 09:03 PM
try a white dx rhyno. the ones i have had felt as stiff as the stiff KC plastic


Yea, those are the best, but still beat in faster than the hard KC. Obviously Champ/Star last a while, but I don't like the feel of that plastic for the Rhyno.

For now, the Rhyno shots are handled by a fresh Wizard or a Demon. :eek:

thatdirtykid
Jul 09 2007, 01:07 AM
So did that test run of DX Starfires (x) work out at all, or still on the wait list? I got my hands on a Champ starfire, love the flight, but still to low speed overstable for big D, being able to break one in some would be nice.

davei
Jul 09 2007, 08:16 AM
So did that test run of DX Starfires (x) work out at all, or still on the wait list? I got my hands on a Champ starfire, love the flight, but still to low speed overstable for big D, being able to break one in some would be nice.



We still haven't done DX. It is on the wait list. I'm not sure the DX version will help with low speed overstability. The SL would be a better bet or better yet a Pro Starfire.

tafe
Jul 10 2007, 12:45 PM
Why can't you recycle plastic?



You can, if you are talking about reject parts, but it has to be segmented by type and color, then reprocessed into pellets. That takes additional time and money.



Actually, I have a Rattler with some mysterious type plastic. When I asked the Discraft guys at AmNat's they told me that it is the recycle run. They grind up all the rejects and blend them together. They make them in black only to deal with all the different colors. It is very nice feeling; soft but durable and made from 4 different types of plastic. I'm sure it would be different every time but well worth it over strictly landfill waste.

davei
Jul 10 2007, 02:18 PM
Why can't you recycle plastic?



You can, if you are talking about reject parts, but it has to be segmented by type and color, then reprocessed into pellets. That takes additional time and money.



Actually, I have a Rattler with some mysterious type plastic. When I asked the Discraft guys at AmNat's they told me that it is the recycle run. They grind up all the rejects and blend them together. They make them in black only to deal with all the different colors. It is very nice feeling; soft but durable and made from 4 different types of plastic. I'm sure it would be different every time but well worth it over strictly landfill waste.



I didn't mean to imply that we don't recycle. We do. It just takes additional equipment and labor.

JHBlader86
Jul 11 2007, 02:52 AM
Hey Dave, curious to know what your players think of the Cro. What seems to be the general consensus amongst them?

davei
Jul 11 2007, 08:03 AM
Hey Dave, curious to know what your players think of the Cro. What seems to be the general consensus amongst them?



So far all the feedback has been positive. The disc is performing as advertized. It is a power mid range that can handle the power and torque of the pros. It has gone into several of our player's bags permanently already. Almost everyone has commented on the feel of the plastic and disc in their hand as a positive.

dgdave
Jul 11 2007, 08:12 AM
is the plastic of the cro like the driver star or the the gummy star ala the skeeter?

davei
Jul 11 2007, 09:22 AM
is the plastic of the cro like the driver star or the the gummy star ala the skeeter?



Gummy Star ala Skeeter

JHBlader86
Jul 11 2007, 05:28 PM
Hey Dave, curious to know what your players think of the Cro. What seems to be the general consensus amongst them?



So far all the feedback has been positive. The disc is performing as advertized. It is a power mid range that can handle the power and torque of the pros. It has gone into several of our player's bags permanently already. Almost everyone has commented on the feel of the plastic and disc in their hand as a positive.



Will it hold a line and steadily come back or just continue on and on and on? Also, how well is it against headwinds?

davei
Jul 11 2007, 07:56 PM
Hey Dave, curious to know what your players think of the Cro. What seems to be the general consensus amongst them?



So far all the feedback has been positive. The disc is performing as advertized. It is a power mid range that can handle the power and torque of the pros. It has gone into several of our player's bags permanently already. Almost everyone has commented on the feel of the plastic and disc in their hand as a positive.



Will it hold a line and steadily come back or just continue on and on and on? Also, how well is it against headwinds?



It has a line similar to a Roc (stable then overstable), but it is better against a headwind. The Roc has more glide and is better all around including slower finesse shots, but the Cro is better for higher power. That really shows into the wind, high power turnover, and for sidearm throws.

gokayaksteven
Jul 11 2007, 09:25 PM
Hi Dave-which is least hi-speed stable in the DX plastic, beast or valk? thx

gokayaksteven
Jul 11 2007, 09:29 PM
oh--also--is the glow sidewinder still available? and how does it compare to the others mentioned above?

davei
Jul 12 2007, 09:58 AM
Hi Dave-which is least hi-speed stable in the DX plastic, beast or valk? thx



I think they are about the same, but the Beast might be a little less high speed stable. The Sidewinder is a little less high speed stable. I don't know about the glow plastic. I am told it is still available.

mbohn
Jul 12 2007, 05:05 PM
Dave, just currious....Whats the story behind naming that disc the Cro?

the_kid
Jul 12 2007, 05:16 PM
Dave,

Can you still get the DX beast in the "Old mold" version? Hopefully so because this was Innova's best driver IMO.

RustyP
Jul 12 2007, 06:01 PM
Hi Dave,

Are there any plans to produce the Cro in DX plastic? If so, is there a timeline?

I'd really like to test one out against my DX Rocs, and I imagine the comparison would be most accurate if both were the same plastic. Maybe you can offer some insight.

Thanks,

Rusty

davei
Jul 12 2007, 08:04 PM
Dave, just currious....Whats the story behind naming that disc the Cro?



Anagram, bird, straight flyer. It all fit for us.

davei
Jul 12 2007, 08:04 PM
Dave,

Can you still get the DX beast in the "Old mold" version? Hopefully so because this was Innova's best driver IMO.



No, it was too close to the Orc.

ck34
Jul 12 2007, 08:10 PM
Anagram, bird, straight flyer. It all fit for us.




And crows are attracted to shiny objects...

davei
Jul 12 2007, 08:14 PM
Hi Dave,

Are there any plans to produce the Cro in DX plastic? If so, is there a timeline?

I'd really like to test one out against my DX Rocs, and I imagine the comparison would be most accurate if both were the same plastic. Maybe you can offer some insight.

Thanks,

Rusty



Originally, there were no plans for DX, but we may change our minds after testing it in DX. It was surprisingly stable in Star. We will test fairly soon, probably one or two weeks to test. I am not sure about the comparison between a Roc and a Cro. I think it's just like the comparison between an Aero and an Aviar. One is larger, has more glide, and is better at finesse shots, and the other is smaller, quicker, and better for power. They both fly on the same line, but how they do it, and how they feel, is different.

the_kid
Jul 12 2007, 08:49 PM
Dave,

Can you still get the DX beast in the "Old mold" version? Hopefully so because this was Innova's best driver IMO.



No, it was too close to the Orc.




Do the DX Orc have as much high speed stability? I only threw the 1st runs so maybe they were more overstable but I thought that DX Orcs are understable.

AviarX
Jul 12 2007, 10:04 PM
The buzzz mold is unique. The wasp was the copy of the roc. The buzzz is a beadless wasp. Innova doesn't have a beadless roc mold. Of course they have the coyote, skeeter, etc. that will fly like a beadless roc, but the buzzz is not a copy of any Innova disc.



Millenium is made by Innova and the Millenium Aurora MS (pro-type plastic) and QMS (champion-type plastic)
are beadless Rocs -- are they not???? The MS came out long before the Buzzz too...

the_kid
Jul 12 2007, 10:29 PM
The buzzz mold is unique. The wasp was the copy of the roc. The buzzz is a beadless wasp. Innova doesn't have a beadless roc mold. Of course they have the coyote, skeeter, etc. that will fly like a beadless roc, but the buzzz is not a copy of any Innova disc.



Millenium is made by Innova and the Millenium Aurora MS (pro-type plastic) and QMS (champion-type plastic)
are beadless Rocs -- are they not???? The MS came out long before the Buzzz too...




If anything the Aurora MF would be the beadless Roc. Then again maybe it is just the plastics that make the wing shrink less on the MS because it isn't as concaved as a Roc.

AviarX
Jul 12 2007, 10:45 PM
are you talking about a San Marino, Ontario, or Rancho Roc? (and do you know which one i was refering to?) ;)

gokayaksteven
Jul 12 2007, 10:50 PM
dx cro!

deathbypar
Jul 13 2007, 12:17 AM
Dave, I sure that this has already been clarified but I cannot find it.

With regards to the CE firebirds are the FX and F's the same disc?

davei
Jul 13 2007, 07:46 AM
Dave,

Can you still get the DX beast in the "Old mold" version? Hopefully so because this was Innova's best driver IMO.



No, it was too close to the Orc.




Do the DX Orc have as much high speed stability? I only threw the 1st runs so maybe they were more overstable but I thought that DX Orcs are understable.



The DX Orcs should have more high speed stability, but DX is very finicky with the very long range discs and can produce a lot of variability.

davei
Jul 13 2007, 07:49 AM
Dave, I sure that this has already been clarified but I cannot find it.

With regards to the CE firebirds are the FX and F's the same disc?



If you are talking about the original CE Firebirds, some Fs were FLs. Later we changed all Fs to FX and labeled all FLs accordingly.

Alex_wells
Jul 13 2007, 01:59 PM
Any ideas when the clash at renny dvd will be available it says early summer on zonedriven (I also thought I heard the end of june somewhere but not sure about that) I'm just excited renaissance is one of my favorite courses, so that dvd should be awesome!
Thanks

DSproAVIAR
Jul 13 2007, 02:25 PM
So is this correct Dave?

Aero is to Aviar
as
Cro is to Roc?

veganray
Jul 13 2007, 02:38 PM
Aero:Aviar = Roc:Cro
--NOT--
Aero:Aviar = Cro:Roc

DSproAVIAR
Jul 13 2007, 02:45 PM
Awesome. That's what I was hoping for. I can't wait. We have some custom stamped Cros coming in from east coast, hopefully.

AviarX
Jul 13 2007, 07:41 PM
are you comparing which was a spin-off (bad pun intended) of the other, or flight characteristics, or ...?

jHarr
Jul 13 2007, 07:55 PM
Hi Dave,

Are there any plans to produce the Cro in DX plastic? If so, is there a timeline?

I'd really like to test one out against my DX Rocs, and I imagine the comparison would be most accurate if both were the same plastic. Maybe you can offer some insight.

Thanks,

Rusty



Originally, there were no plans for DX, but we may change our minds after testing it in DX. It was surprisingly stable in Star. We will test fairly soon, probably one or two weeks to test. I am not sure about the comparison between a Roc and a Cro. I think it's just like the comparison between an Aero and an Aviar. One is larger, has more glide, and is better at finesse shots, and the other is smaller, quicker, and better for power. They both fly on the same line, but how they do it, and how they feel, is different.

davei
Jul 13 2007, 08:44 PM
Any ideas when the clash at renny dvd will be available it says early summer on zonedriven (I also thought I heard the end of june somewhere but not sure about that) I'm just excited renaissance is one of my favorite courses, so that dvd should be awesome!
Thanks



You'll have to contact zonedriven on this.

davei
Jul 13 2007, 08:46 PM
are you comparing which was a spin-off (bad pun intended) of the other, or flight characteristics, or ...?



Neither were spin offs, just using them as analogies for flight and size comparisons. Large finesse vs small ballistic.

davei
Jul 13 2007, 08:47 PM
So is this correct Dave?

Aero is to Aviar
as
Cro is to Roc?



vegan ray is correct

Bizzle
Jul 13 2007, 09:02 PM
Looking for an online site that doesn't require PayPal, as my account has recently been hi-jacked, that sells the new Star Cro.....any suggestions?

bschweberger
Jul 13 2007, 09:51 PM
Any ideas when the clash at renny dvd will be available it says early summer on zonedriven (I also thought I heard the end of june somewhere but not sure about that) I'm just excited renaissance is one of my favorite courses, so that dvd should be awesome!
Thanks

Final copy is being sent into mass production this coming week.

davei
Jul 13 2007, 10:19 PM
Looking for an online site that doesn't require PayPal, as my account has recently been hi-jacked, that sells the new Star Cro.....any suggestions?



discgolfvalues.com has them, but I don't know what payment method he uses.

Bizzle
Jul 13 2007, 10:34 PM
Looking for an online site that doesn't require PayPal, as my account has recently been hi-jacked, that sells the new Star Cro.....any suggestions?



discgolfvalues.com has them, but I don't know what payment method he uses.



Sweet....Thanks Dave, Just placed my order.

par54whereareyo
Jul 15 2007, 10:10 AM
Dave, are you doing something different with JK Aviars? The last two times I ordered them they were much harder than before, almost identical to the KCs.

davei
Jul 15 2007, 08:49 PM
Dave, are you doing something different with JK Aviars? The last two times I ordered them they were much harder than before, almost identical to the KCs.



Not supposed to be anywhere near as hard. They should be slightly softer than regular P&A. Could be a hot stamp mess up or a molder mess up.

hhenry88
Jul 15 2007, 11:06 PM
any idea where to find San Marino and/or Rancho Rocs?

dgdave
Jul 15 2007, 11:17 PM
any idea where to find San Marino and/or Rancho Rocs?



Sannies-ebay

Rancos-anywhere. these are the current mold. just look on the bottom

EricJKopit
Jul 15 2007, 11:20 PM
Dave, got my hands on a slightly used Hammer, and just got back from the throwing field...it seems to fly exactly like a San Marino Roc! What is the actual difference between a Hammer and SM Roc? (The Hammer is the one with the hammerhead shark stamp.)

Thanks.

-Eric K

P.S. Gummy Champion Goblins??? :D

AviarX
Jul 15 2007, 11:24 PM
are they 4 time or 5 time JK Aviars? if 4x they are probably just old stock. i like soft JK's, but there are players out there who really like the stiff ones and will trade generously for them ;)

davei
Jul 16 2007, 07:50 AM
Dave, got my hands on a slightly used Hammer, and just got back from the throwing field...it seems to fly exactly like a San Marino Roc! What is the actual difference between a Hammer and SM Roc? (The Hammer is the one with the hammerhead shark stamp.)

Thanks.

-Eric K

P.S. Gummy Champion Goblins??? :D



The Hammer has a lower profile rim, and a thicker plate. The flight difference is a slight high speed instability for the Hammer, plus the Hammer is a little faster.

20460chase
Jul 16 2007, 04:50 PM
Not sure if this has been asked.

Why does the Star Cro have * SP on the bottom? I thought that was reserved for Spiders?

davei
Jul 16 2007, 06:02 PM
Not sure if this has been asked.

Why does the Star Cro have * SP on the bottom? I thought that was reserved for Spiders?



Mismarked, I believe. The bottom should say S-Cro.

gokayaksteven
Jul 16 2007, 09:40 PM
do they feel/resemble spiders?

m_conners
Jul 16 2007, 10:16 PM
do they feel/resemble spiders?



Absolutely...they almost look the same too, just missing the bead I believe.

JHBlader86
Jul 16 2007, 11:21 PM
Finally got to throw the Cro today, and WOW this disc is ACCURATE! Used it on several throws, and it came through. IT also holds up really well in the wind!

Bizzle
Jul 16 2007, 11:36 PM
Finally got to throw the Cro today, and WOW this disc is ACCURATE! Used it on several throws, and it came through. IT also holds up really well in the wind!



Mine should arrive in a couple of days.....SOTDude, does it live up to your expectations of it being a longer but still accurate roc?

davei
Jul 17 2007, 08:21 AM
Finally got to throw the Cro today, and WOW this disc is ACCURATE! Used it on several throws, and it came through. IT also holds up really well in the wind!



Mine should arrive in a couple of days.....SOTDude, does it live up to your expectations of it being a longer but still accurate roc?



I would not expect the Cro to be a longer than a Roc, just faster. The Roc has more glide, so unless you are throwing real hard, the Roc might be longer in most situations other than upwind.

Bizzle
Jul 17 2007, 11:53 AM
[/QUOTE]

I would not expect the Cro to be a longer than a Roc, just faster. The Roc has more glide, so unless you are throwing real hard, the Roc might be longer in most situations other than upwind.

[/QUOTE]

Good to know...thanks,

widiscgolf
Jul 17 2007, 11:53 AM
Hamil had one that I threw during our round this past Sunday.

I would say the Cro is a Controllable Stable Roc that has less glide but is much faster. Just like Dave D said.

It feels nice in the hands also.


Josh

m_conners
Jul 17 2007, 11:58 AM
Dave,

Does a bead on the bottom of a disc increase stability or does it depend on the mold?

Just wondering cuz it seems like a bead makes the disc more stable but maybe it just creates more glide (?).

Thank you in advance...

davei
Jul 17 2007, 12:44 PM
Dave,

Does a bead on the bottom of a disc increase stability or does it depend on the mold?

Just wondering cuz it seems like a bead makes the disc more stable but maybe it just creates more glide (?).

Thank you in advance...



What the bead does for sure is increase abrasion resistance on the bottom of the rim and make the bottom edge a little rounder for grip. Stability is a different issue. It depends on the mold. The bead per se does not add stability, but it does maintain stability longer if the disc is stable in the first place.

m_conners
Jul 17 2007, 01:24 PM
Right on...thx.

JHBlader86
Jul 17 2007, 04:11 PM
Finally got to throw the Cro today, and WOW this disc is ACCURATE! Used it on several throws, and it came through. IT also holds up really well in the wind!



Mine should arrive in a couple of days.....SOTDude, does it live up to your expectations of it being a longer but still accurate roc?



Rocs always varied for me, and the only ones I could throw were Champs as they seemed to be the most stable, but I never liked that extra stability. My Element-X has been my main midrange for a few months, but its real stable as well, and easy to mess up a shot. But once I threw the Cro it definitely became THE midrange I was looking. While I do wish it had a lil bit more glide, it's speed and ability to hold lines, esp. in the wind was exactly what I needed.

bkaplan10
Jul 18 2007, 10:25 PM
Dave, I purchased a couple of black teebirds that have the 2005 Southern California Disc Golf Championships stamp and are marked SBT on the underside. Are these Special Blend plastic or Star? If special blend, were there any other made with other stamps?

Thanks

discchucker
Jul 19 2007, 07:43 AM
There were a few that had the champion stamp on them.

davei
Jul 19 2007, 08:09 AM
Dave, I purchased a couple of black teebirds that have the 2005 Southern California Disc Golf Championships stamp and are marked SBT on the underside. Are these Special Blend plastic or Star? If special blend, were there any other made with other stamps?

Thanks



They were Special Blend before we had Star plastic, I believe. I don't know about other stamps.

Bizzle
Jul 19 2007, 09:58 AM
[QUOTE]
[QUOTE]
Finally got to throw the Cro today, and WOW this disc is ACCURATE! Used it on several throws, and it came through. IT also holds up really well in the wind!



Just got mine.....I LOVE the feel of this disc....Can't wait to get out and huck this bad boy.

20460chase
Jul 19 2007, 02:19 PM
There were a few that had the champion stamp on them.



Correct! And they came in more than just Teebirds. Most have Silver Sharpie on the back, some Gold. I have a big stack of them. Most went to the same person, and they released them as standard black discs, not knowing what they really were.

The story I was told was that these were done and stamped with the normal Champion stamp as they hadnt yet decided to start a whole new line and call it Star.

Dana
Jul 19 2007, 05:46 PM
Dave,

Are the chains on the newer D-catchers different than in the past? I have noticed on a few different newer (<2 yrs old) courses that chains are already rusty...

EricJKopit
Jul 20 2007, 02:08 AM
Dave, I purchased a couple of black teebirds that have the 2005 Southern California Disc Golf Championships stamp and are marked SBT on the underside. Are these Special Blend plastic or Star? If special blend, were there any other made with other stamps?

Thanks



They were Special Blend before we had Star plastic, I believe. I don't know about other stamps.



I thought those were the original "prototype" run of Star plastic Teebirds (the ones with the detailed 2005 SoCal color stamp on it...including bodyboarder and Steve Rico!). I had one in my collection, bought it from Mark Molnar.

-E

davei
Jul 20 2007, 07:51 AM
Dave,

Are the chains on the newer D-catchers different than in the past? I have noticed on a few different newer (<2 yrs old) courses that chains are already rusty...



All of our hot dipped galvanized chain was supposed to be the same. Apparently there must have been some variation in the galvanization process of one batch. We have since changed suppliers in an effort to get consistantly better chain.

gokayaksteven
Jul 20 2007, 07:14 PM
which of the currently available rocs are most overstable, new rancho, TFR super roc, or 12x? thanks

Boneman
Jul 20 2007, 07:21 PM
Super Roc

davei
Jul 20 2007, 07:22 PM
which of the currently available rocs are most overstable, new rancho, TFR super roc, or 12x? thanks



If you're asking me, I would say Rancho, but I would defer to the Roc throwers who might have a different opinion.

shaolintrained
Jul 20 2007, 08:36 PM
I'd have to agree with Dave about the Ranchos.

Innova19
Jul 21 2007, 12:33 AM
WHAT IS THE WORD ON THE CHAMP SL / STAR SL (SSL)? ARE THEY LEGAL TO THROW AT TOURNAMENTS? I HAD TO REMOVE 5 FROM MY BAG AT THE McCLURE CLASSIC HERE IN TULSA. THERE WAS SOMETHING ABOUT NOT BEING APPROVED BY THE PDGA? HAS THIS BEEN SETTELED? THE SL / SSL IS A GREAT ALL PURPOSE DISC.


JUST BECAUSE I WRITE IN CAPPS DOESN'T MEAN I'M YELLING....ITS EAISER TO SEE THE PRINT.

dgdave
Jul 21 2007, 12:49 AM
they are legal

BerserkerRush
Jul 21 2007, 03:04 AM
Dear Dave,
please please please one more run of candy gazelles...thanks

discette
Jul 21 2007, 10:26 AM
WHAT IS THE WORD ON THE CHAMP SL / STAR SL (SSL)? ARE THEY LEGAL TO THROW AT TOURNAMENTS? I HAD TO REMOVE 5 FROM MY BAG AT THE McCLURE CLASSIC HERE IN TULSA. THERE WAS SOMETHING ABOUT NOT BEING APPROVED BY THE PDGA? HAS THIS BEEN SETTELED? THE SL / SSL IS A GREAT ALL PURPOSE DISC.




The SL was re-approved June 21st. They were legal for the McClure Classic on June 23.

AviarX
Jul 21 2007, 11:01 AM
Dave, what can you tell us about the Destroyer, and do you expect it to be released in Champion or Star when it goes into regular production?

dgdave
Jul 21 2007, 11:18 AM
you can get the destroyer at www.discgolfvalues.com (http://www.discgolfvalues.com) right now in the champion fundraiser section. its in champ plastic

dgdave
Jul 21 2007, 11:29 AM
dave,

are the destroyers onmarks site a proto run or is the mold staying like this when it goes in production?

gokayaksteven
Jul 21 2007, 11:30 AM
will they be available in DX?

1967
Jul 21 2007, 05:30 PM
Dave can we get the star stanp for the frist run Destroyer? Can star plastic be made to have glow in it?

Energyturtle7
Jul 21 2007, 05:42 PM
I have heard there were a few '02 tournaments that had some Rhyno's made with CE plastic. I have seen a few and they do appear to be slightly more translucent than usuall. However, is their any truth to this? Thanks.

davei
Jul 21 2007, 06:10 PM
Dave, what can you tell us about the Destroyer, and do you expect it to be released in Champion or Star when it goes into regular production?



The Destroyer will be in full production Monday. Mark got, what amounted to all the test shots for the Masters stamp. I am not sure why we started in Champion, but it seemed to test fine this time. We will run Star too at some point. DX is always a question mark with long range drivers. We will test it, but I don't have much confidence that it will work consistently.

I have had a chance to throw it and it appears to be something new for me. It won't replace the Wraith, but very well looks as if it will replace the Max for me. We have preliminarily rated the high speed turn to be -1, but I still had a difficult time turning it, and it always comes back. I can't say that for a Wraith, or even a TeeRex. The most unforseen thing with the Destroyer was its sidearm potential. It seems to be an excellent into the wind disc despite the slight high speed turn. Like the Wraith and other long range discs, it is highly nose sensitive. Any nose up means hyzer. The good news here is that it is a very long hyzer. I was throwing the lightest ones I could get, (167 & 168 gms), and I had no inclination to throw heavier at all.

davei
Jul 21 2007, 06:12 PM
dave,

are the destroyers onmarks site a proto run or is the mold staying like this when it goes in production?



Mark got all the good test shots. (Not X parts). We were happy with the tests as is and will continue with the same material on monday. The mold is definitely staying like this.

davei
Jul 21 2007, 06:16 PM
Dave can we get the star stanp for the frist run Destroyer? Can star plastic be made to have glow in it?



I think there will be a Star stamp for the first run, but I am not sure at this point. Star plastic will be run, but sucks in glow. We could make Champion in glow.

davei
Jul 21 2007, 06:29 PM
Dave, what can you tell us about the Destroyer, and do you expect it to be released in Champion or Star when it goes into regular production?



I should also say that the Destroyer is not for the faint of arm. It works best with a lot of power behind it. Sidearms require less power than backhands, but still need driver power. To use this disc for backhand shots other than hyzers, you need at least 375 ft or more of power, or have the ability to throw with nose down.

shaolintrained
Jul 21 2007, 06:38 PM
Dave, I've just got to say thank you for what you're doing. You guys keep pushing the technological envelope. Do you think that speed 12 will be the speed apex for awhile, since anything faster would take a monster arm?

Bizzle
Jul 21 2007, 06:44 PM
Dave, what can you tell us about the Destroyer, and do you expect it to be released in Champion or Star when it goes into regular production?



I should also say that the Destroyer is not for the faint of arm. It works best with a lot of power behind it. Sidearms require less power than backhands, but still need driver power. To use this disc for backhand shots other than hyzers, you need at least 375 ft or more of power, or have the ability to throw with nose down.



Would you say the same of a Wraith or TeeBird? I can throw 400 with a great pull, but average 300-360ish and I don't have any troubles with the either of said discs. Granted, I'm very green in the DG world. Any thoughts?

the_kid
Jul 21 2007, 06:54 PM
Dave, I've just got to say thank you for what you're doing. You guys keep pushing the technological envelope. Do you think that speed 12 will be the speed apex for awhile, since anything faster would take a monster arm?



No already duscs that fast. :D

davei
Jul 21 2007, 07:10 PM
Dave, I've just got to say thank you for what you're doing. You guys keep pushing the technological envelope. Do you think that speed 12 will be the speed apex for awhile, since anything faster would take a monster arm?



We could beat 12 already, but it needs to be useful and produce-able. If only big arms can throw it, it's not that useful.

davei
Jul 21 2007, 07:13 PM
Dave, what can you tell us about the Destroyer, and do you expect it to be released in Champion or Star when it goes into regular production?



I should also say that the Destroyer is not for the faint of arm. It works best with a lot of power behind it. Sidearms require less power than backhands, but still need driver power. To use this disc for backhand shots other than hyzers, you need at least 375 ft or more of power, or have the ability to throw with nose down.



Would you say the same of a Wraith or TeeBird? I can throw 400 with a great pull, but average 300-360ish and I don't have any troubles with the either of said discs. Granted, I'm very green in the DG world. Any thoughts?



If you can throw max weight Wraiths, you can throw this disc. If you can flip a TeeBird, you can throw this disc. A Max is the real test. If you can throw a Max, you want this disc.

davei
Jul 21 2007, 07:14 PM
I have heard there were a few '02 tournaments that had some Rhyno's made with CE plastic. I have seen a few and they do appear to be slightly more translucent than usuall. However, is their any truth to this? Thanks.



Sorry, I don't know about this. Ask Mark at discgolfvalues. He knows about this kind of stuff.

the_kid
Jul 21 2007, 07:16 PM
Dave, aren't TBs harder to flip than wraiths? Maybe it is just the nose angle thing but I always felt that the Wraith was less HSS than the Teebird.

Thanks.

denny1210
Jul 21 2007, 07:20 PM
To use this disc for backhand shots other than hyzers, you need at least 375 ft or more of power


Serious question, when you say that do you mean Aviar power, Roc power, T-bird power, or Wraith power?

Here's your chance to own the "disc power standard" for all time. What say you?

davei
Jul 21 2007, 07:40 PM
Dave, aren't TBs harder to flip than wraiths? Maybe it is just the nose angle thing but I always felt that the Wraith was less HSS than the Teebird.

Thanks.



TeeBirds are harder to flip than Wraiths. I just used it as an example that I have noticed over the years. Serious power throwers tend to flip TeeBirds a little. Craig Leyva being one example.

davei
Jul 21 2007, 07:45 PM
To use this disc for backhand shots other than hyzers, you need at least 375 ft or more of power


Serious question, when you say that do you mean Aviar power, Roc power, T-bird power, or Wraith power?

Here's your chance to own the "disc power standard" for all time. What say you?



300 Aviar, 350 Roc, 375 TeeBird, 375+ Wraith NMBD.

the_kid
Jul 21 2007, 07:47 PM
Dave, aren't TBs harder to flip than wraiths? Maybe it is just the nose angle thing but I always felt that the Wraith was less HSS than the Teebird.

Thanks.



TeeBirds are harder to flip than Wraiths. I just used it as an example that I have noticed over the years. Serious power throwers tend to flip TeeBirds a little. Craig Leyva being one example.



I just said that because I was playing with Avery last year not too long after the Wraith came out and he was kinda giving Matt-O and Sprague a hard time for throwing the Wriath into a headwind because the Teebird held up so much better.

circle_2
Jul 21 2007, 08:02 PM
Tee Bird...the BEST driver ever made. (And the first to go 800'! :eek:) :cool:


.02

20460chase
Jul 23 2007, 12:10 AM
To use this disc for backhand shots other than hyzers, you need at least 375 ft or more of power


Serious question, when you say that do you mean Aviar power, Roc power, T-bird power, or Wraith power?

Here's your chance to own the "disc power standard" for all time. What say you?



300 Aviar, 350 Roc, 375 TeeBird, 375+ Wraith NMBD.





Would that be "NON MESSAGE BOARD DISTANCE"?

- That would disqualify 2/3rds of the people on here.

davei
Jul 23 2007, 07:41 AM
To use this disc for backhand shots other than hyzers, you need at least 375 ft or more of power


Serious question, when you say that do you mean Aviar power, Roc power, T-bird power, or Wraith power?

Here's your chance to own the "disc power standard" for all time. What say you?



300 Aviar, 350 Roc, 375 TeeBird, 375+ Wraith NMBD.





Would that be "NON MESSAGE BOARD DISTANCE"?

- That would disqualify 2/3rds of the people on here.



Yes and possibly.

tafe
Jul 23 2007, 03:11 PM
I have heard there were a few '02 tournaments that had some Rhyno's made with CE plastic. I have seen a few and they do appear to be slightly more translucent than usuall. However, is their any truth to this? Thanks.



Sorry, I don't know about this. Ask Mark at discgolfvalues. He knows about this kind of stuff.



Actually, those are the only ones I have ever had. They are more translucent and also seem to me to be more durable. They only came in, I believe, 167-171 or so. I never felt the desire for more wt. as they were plenty overstable for me, for at least 3 yrs!

magilla
Jul 23 2007, 03:56 PM
Hey Dave,

Are these ONLY available thru DiscGolf Values at this point OR will they be going out elsewhere as CFR's as well??

I NEED SOME... ;)

:D

davei
Jul 23 2007, 07:55 PM
Hey Dave,

Are these ONLY available thru DiscGolf Values at this point OR will they be going out elsewhere as CFR's as well??

I NEED SOME... ;)

:D



They have only been available through CFR, but will shortly be available widely. We need to make much more than 1500 to release them generally. Most of the CFRs were Champion. The general release will be Star. The destroyer was made for you, big boy. ;)

bschweberger
Jul 23 2007, 10:12 PM
Dave, TThe Destroyer sounds very interesting, will they be sent to Team members ?

dgdave
Jul 23 2007, 11:16 PM
Dave, TThe Destroyer sounds very interesting, will they be sent to Team members ?



wow. I'm far from sponsored and mine were shipped out today

Bizzle
Jul 23 2007, 11:24 PM
thatz cauz you paid 4 urz!

davei
Jul 24 2007, 07:53 AM
Dave, TThe Destroyer sounds very interesting, will they be sent to Team members ?



Yes. I wish we had already done it. We don't imagine any team members are going to use it at Worlds, as they are not used to it, but we will have them there.

MTL21676
Jul 24 2007, 10:04 AM
thatz cauz you paid 4 urz!

longtoss
Jul 24 2007, 11:44 AM
dave,
recently while running a tourney in colorado ( high plains) we received a dx avair that was stamped with a ad on the back what mold is this? it feels like a 9time kc aviar
jeff m

davei
Jul 24 2007, 01:05 PM
dave,
recently while running a tourney in colorado ( high plains) we received a dx avair that was stamped with a ad on the back what mold is this? it feels like a 9time kc aviar
jeff m



Probably a BB Aviar. The AD stands for Aviar Driver. The older BB Aviars were fairly stiff and a little slick. The newer BBs are not as stiff and grippier.

AviarX
Jul 24 2007, 04:18 PM
Dave, TThe Destroyer sounds very interesting, will they be sent to Team members ?



Yes. I wish we had already done it. We don't imagine any team members are going to use it at Worlds, as they are not used to it, but we will have them there.



Isn't there some kind of rule about a disc having to have been released at least 30 days in advance of an event in order to be legal at that event anyways?

davei
Jul 24 2007, 09:04 PM
Dave, TThe Destroyer sounds very interesting, will they be sent to Team members ?



Yes. I wish we had already done it. We don't imagine any team members are going to use it at Worlds, as they are not used to it, but we will have them there.



Isn't there some kind of rule about a disc having to have been released at least 30 days in advance of an event in order to be legal at that event anyways?



After approval we are obligated to make at least 1500 commercially available. That requirement has been met. It is the approval that is 30 days prior to a major event. It was not approved in time for AM Worlds, (missed by one day), but was approved for Pro Worlds, as per Jeff Homburg. It wouldn't make sense to start full production before approval, as they might not pass.

dgdave
Jul 26 2007, 11:07 PM
Dave,
I have a few questions.

1. I went out and retried the destroyer and am much more pleased. Are you planning a less stable version or less stable disc of the same speed?

2.Are the destroyer, ontario roc, dx BB aviar, and champ tl staying on the cfr or tourney stamp only list or will they be put out in regular production?

3. Lastly, where do you plan on going with your next generation of drivers? The rim on the destroyer is so wide I can't see any wider being widely usable. I have large hands and the destroyer is on the verge of being a little too big.Ilet a buddy try it and it was too wide for him and i would say he has normal size hands.

Thanks in advance and good work on all your new discs.

JHBlader86
Jul 27 2007, 03:30 AM
What are the real differences between he Wraith, he Wraith-X, he TeeRex, the TeeRex_X, and the Destroyer, not including the speed of 12? I mean, when I look at the descriptions of each they're too familiar to each other and seem somewhat redundant.

Achimba
Jul 27 2007, 03:32 AM
How many Destroyers have the Master's stamp?

ChrisWoj
Jul 27 2007, 04:26 AM
My question is: Is there anywhere further for you to go in the area of discs with a rim width along the lines of a Valkyrie, Teebird, Firebird? I love the Wraith and wide rimmed discs, and I'm sure the Destroyer will feel fine in my hand...

But there's a reliability I like about the Valk, Teebird, Teebird-L, etc. that I don't feel I get with the high speed tech.

davei
Jul 27 2007, 09:15 AM
Dave,
I have a few questions.

1. I went out and retried the destroyer and am much more pleased. Are you planning a less stable version or less stable disc of the same speed?

2.Are the destroyer, ontario roc, dx BB aviar, and champ tl staying on the cfr or tourney stamp only list or will they be put out in regular production?

3. Lastly, where do you plan on going with your next generation of drivers? The rim on the destroyer is so wide I can't see any wider being widely usable. I have large hands and the destroyer is on the verge of being a little too big.Ilet a buddy try it and it was too wide for him and i would say he has normal size hands.

Thanks in advance and good work on all your new discs.



1. Yes, but it will probably have to be in Pro.

2. Only the Ch TL will remain in fundraising. The O Roc and BB are available for any custom stamping now and may go mainstream when we can. The Destroyer is already mainstream in Star.

3. I agree with your assessment of the wide rim. One of the technical spec limitations we asked the PDGA for was a rim width limitation for the very reason you stated. Plus discs like the Destroyer make big arms bigger and do little if anything to help anyone else. I don't think that is a good thing for disc golf. I have resisted making this disc for a couple of years trying to get the PDGA to see this logic. So far, no go.

davei
Jul 27 2007, 09:37 AM
What are the real differences between he Wraith, he Wraith-X, he TeeRex, the TeeRex_X, and the Destroyer, not including the speed of 12? I mean, when I look at the descriptions of each they're too familiar to each other and seem somewhat redundant.



I think the Destroyer most closely resembles the TeeRex X in flight although it seems to have the torque resistance of the Max. It was originally supposed to be longer faster Wraith, but that didn't happen. Maybe in Pro, when we make it. The big difference for me is the torque resistance. The speed is a bonus.

davei
Jul 27 2007, 09:39 AM
How many Destroyers have the Master's stamp?



Sorry, don't know. I think you have to ask Mark at discgolfvalues.

davei
Jul 27 2007, 09:57 AM
My question is: Is there anywhere further for you to go in the area of discs with a rim width along the lines of a Valkyrie, Teebird, Firebird? I love the Wraith and wide rimmed discs, and I'm sure the Destroyer will feel fine in my hand...

But there's a reliability I like about the Valk, Teebird, Teebird-L, etc. that I don't feel I get with the high speed tech.



The wider the rim gets, the more touchy the nose angle becomes. The most reliable disc we have in long range, at this time is the Star Starfire, and the newer Champion Starfire. Most of the other long range discs turn more or less depending on a slight nose angle adjustment. That can make a 50 ft left right difference downfield. Nose angle sensitivity might be a good thing to differentiate skill levels as you just can't just rip with impunity. But as an individual golfer, I would like something that gives me a margin of error for nose angle.

A highly skilled driver, (which I no longer am), can use the nose angle sensitivity to make the discs do what he wants. The rest of use are at the mercy of the margin of error.

dgdave
Jul 27 2007, 10:09 AM
sorry to keep asking so many questions,

Are you planning to release the destroyer in pro plastic? if so, does that mean you found another supplier of it or are you just going to run as many as possible untill you run out of your current syock of pro plastic?

Thanks again

davei
Jul 27 2007, 11:25 AM
sorry to keep asking so many questions,

Are you planning to release the destroyer in pro plastic? if so, does that mean you found another supplier of it or are you just going to run as many as possible untill you run out of your current syock of pro plastic?

Thanks again



We found a new supplier, at least temporarily. We are planning on maintaining Pro Wraiths and Pro Starfires as long as we can. We will test the Pro Destroyer later this year to see if we want it.

boredatwork
Jul 27 2007, 11:38 AM
Hi Dave,

I noticed on my test shot Destroyers that there is a thin ribbon of translucent colored plastic right where the flight plate meets the inside rim of the disc. The flight plate is also very translucent and appears to be of a similar, slightly more flexible plastic than the more opaque and stiff plastic that composes the wing of the disc.

The thought occurred to me that this was somewhat more like the plastic of 150 class gummy champ discs. I assume it�s therefore less dense than the stiffer champ plastic as well. I'm just wondering if the disc was really made of two different densities of champion plastic in order to make the flight plate as thin and lightweight as possible to maximize the moment of inertia and its �gyroscopic� properties. Or is it just to keep the overall weight of the disc down despite its large volume? Or is the color just an artifact from the injection process?

I think the design of the disc is beautiful. It looks like it was sculpted by computers to have a perfectly stable and neutral lift at velocity. I have to say it was thrilling to throw for the first time and that my game has a new reach on a hyzer line. I would definitely be interested to throw these in Pro plastic. Thanks!

flynvegas
Jul 27 2007, 11:51 AM
How many Destroyers have the Master's stamp?



I believe I read 160.

davei
Jul 27 2007, 11:56 AM
Hi Dave,

I noticed on my test shot Destroyers that there is a thin ribbon of translucent colored plastic right where the flight plate meets the inside rim of the disc. The flight plate is also very translucent and appears to be of a similar, slightly more flexible plastic than the more opaque and stiff plastic that composes the wing of the disc.

The thought occurred to me that this was somewhat more like the plastic of 150 class gummy champ discs. I assume it�s therefore less dense than the stiffer champ plastic as well. I'm just wondering if the disc was really made of two different densities of champion plastic in order to make the flight plate as thin and lightweight as possible to maximize the moment of inertia and its �gyroscopic� properties. Or is it just to keep the overall weight of the disc down despite its large volume? Or is the color just an artifact from the injection process?

I think the design of the disc is beautiful. It looks like it was sculpted by computers to have a perfectly stable and neutral lift at velocity. I have to say it was thrilling to throw for the first time and that my game has a new reach on a hyzer line. I would definitely be interested to throw these in Pro plastic. Thanks!



Just one lower density plastic to keep the weight down. The Destroyer already has plenty of mass in the rim. The extra mass is making the rim appear to be stiffer plastic, when the structure itself is causing the effect.

Drew32
Jul 27 2007, 12:12 PM
I noticed that Mark has the Star Destroyers listed but not up yet on his site, when is the official date for the release of the star Destroyers?

boredatwork
Jul 27 2007, 12:26 PM
Just one lower density plastic to keep the weight down. The Destroyer already has plenty of mass in the rim. The extra mass is making the rim appear to be stiffer plastic, when the structure itself is causing the effect.

It was worth a guess ;)

davei
Jul 27 2007, 03:40 PM
I noticed that Mark has the Star Destroyers listed but not up yet on his site, when is the official date for the release of the star Destroyers?



They're available right now in limited quantities, as fast as we can produce, stamp and ship them.

TonyClifton
Jul 27 2007, 03:47 PM
When will they be listed on your website?

davei
Jul 27 2007, 03:58 PM
When will they be listed on your website?



I believe they will be listed Monday, when our web guy gets back from vacation.

smurphy29
Jul 27 2007, 04:33 PM
Hello Dave, Is the special blend plastic of the 2006 Am Worlds Special Blend Orcs different than star plastic. If so, how is it different? Thanks, Scott

davei
Jul 27 2007, 04:38 PM
Hello Dave, Is the special blend plastic of the 2006 Am Worlds Special Blend Orcs different than star plastic. If so, how is it different? Thanks, Scott



As far as I know, it is the same stuff.

Friendo
Jul 27 2007, 08:45 PM
Hello Dave, Is the special blend plastic of the 2006 Am Worlds Special Blend Orcs different than star plastic. If so, how is it different? Thanks, Scott



Hold a Star Orc and an SB Orc up to a light and you will see the difference. At least with mine and all others i have seen that worked.

20460chase
Jul 27 2007, 10:03 PM
Hello Dave, Is the special blend plastic of the 2006 Am Worlds Special Blend Orcs different than star plastic. If so, how is it different? Thanks, Scott



Hold a Star Orc and an SB Orc up to a light and you will see the difference. At least with mine and all others i have seen that worked.



Same for the Night Shifts.

Furthur
Jul 28 2007, 11:36 AM
Hello Dave, Is the special blend plastic of the 2006 Am Worlds Special Blend Orcs different than star plastic. If so, how is it different? Thanks, Scott



Hold a Star Orc and an SB Orc up to a light and you will see the difference. At least with mine and all others i have seen that worked.



Same for the Night Shifts.



But the nightshift plastic is different than the special blend plastic used in the 2005 SB Rocs and SB Fundraiser Orcs, right?

20460chase
Jul 28 2007, 01:05 PM
Yeah. Its closer to Star than Special Blend, as SB isnt always opaque, but Star isnt always either. I have several Star Wraiths that look like cloudy Champion plastic, or really, the old Pro Line, minus the "pearl" look. I have both Orcs and Teebirds in SB, and neither are opaque. IMO, a Night Shifts best comparison is used, soft CE plastic. I think it was the 3rd run.

Night Shifts are the best Orcs ever produced.

dangle
Jul 28 2007, 01:16 PM
20460Chase....sounds interesting where can I get some of these night shift orcs?

Furthur
Jul 28 2007, 01:53 PM
20460Chase....sounds interesting where can I get some of these night shift orcs?



Gotta find someone willing to sell one first. They are kinda rare.

ChrisWoj
Jul 28 2007, 03:38 PM
My question is: Is there anywhere further for you to go in the area of discs with a rim width along the lines of a Valkyrie, Teebird, Firebird? I love the Wraith and wide rimmed discs, and I'm sure the Destroyer will feel fine in my hand...

But there's a reliability I like about the Valk, Teebird, Teebird-L, etc. that I don't feel I get with the high speed tech.



The wider the rim gets, the more touchy the nose angle becomes. The most reliable disc we have in long range, at this time is the Star Starfire, and the newer Champion Starfire. Most of the other long range discs turn more or less depending on a slight nose angle adjustment. That can make a 50 ft left right difference downfield. Nose angle sensitivity might be a good thing to differentiate skill levels as you just can't just rip with impunity. But as an individual golfer, I would like something that gives me a margin of error for nose angle.

A highly skilled driver, (which I no longer am), can use the nose angle sensitivity to make the discs do what he wants. The rest of use are at the mercy of the margin of error.


Okay, good to know... but my question was if there is anything you feel you can still do at that rim width? Do you believe that there is something that hasn't been done at that narrow, reliable width? Any more developments that can still come about at it?

atreau3
Jul 28 2007, 08:16 PM
20460Chase....sounds interesting where can I get some of these night shift orcs?



Gotta find someone willing to sell one first. They are kinda rare.



I have two... both mint.... 174 turqoise... one has my name on it.

PM if interested....

xterramatt
Jul 29 2007, 08:56 AM
Night Shifts really were sweet discs. I had 5 I think. I lost 2, gave 1 away, retired 1, and the other has vanished... into the night...

atreau3
Jul 29 2007, 09:13 AM
20460Chase....sounds interesting where can I get some of these night shift orcs?



Gotta find someone willing to sell one first. They are kinda rare.



I have two... both mint.... 174 turqoise... one has my name on it.

PM if interested....



I just pulled them both out of my storage bin... I couldn't believe how grippy and chaulky they are!

For those who don't know about the night shift orc... they spawned "Star" plastic. Innova's "Night Shift" were running a batch of orcs and decided to do an "experiment." The result was a much grippier champion type plastic/ much much more durable SE/Pro Plastic. For some reason, all night shift orcs are more overstable than usual. I've seen these orcs in Dark Blue, Deep Red, and in Turquoise. All that I've seen have more of a matte finish. Right after these got out of the factory demand exploded. Innova then made the "Special Blend" Orc in this same plastic. For those who have seen the Blue or Red Tulsa special blend orcs, the red and the blue are very close to these colors. The turquoise is sick!

I bought two of these around the same time as the First Run Tulsa orcs (of which I have 5 new ones and one in the bag).

--my account of the nightshift.

Fossil
Jul 29 2007, 10:53 AM
After approval we are obligated to make at least 1500 commercially available. That requirement has been met. It is the approval that is 30 days prior to a major event. It was not approved in time for AM Worlds, (missed by one day), but was approved for Pro Worlds, as per Jeff Homburg. It wouldn't make sense to start full production before approval, as they might not pass.



Dave,
When was the last time you sent something for PDGA approval and had it rejected? Other than a borderline flexibility problem with the three samples submitted (given "Manufacturers are required to send samples of the most rigid discs they want considered for PDGA approval") aren't the other parameters so well established that any problem there would be addressed earlier in the design process than the submission run?
Just curious.

rollinghedge
Jul 29 2007, 11:44 AM
"Limits on wing width?" thread (http://www.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=720010&Main=719797#Post7 20010)

20460chase
Jul 29 2007, 01:13 PM
20460Chase....sounds interesting where can I get some of these night shift orcs?



Gotta find someone willing to sell one first. They are kinda rare.



I have two... both mint.... 174 turqoise... one has my name on it.

PM if interested....



I just pulled them both out of my storage bin... I couldn't believe how grippy and chaulky they are!

For those who don't know about the night shift orc... they spawned "Star" plastic. Innova's "Night Shift" were running a batch of orcs and decided to do an "experiment." The result was a much grippier champion type plastic/ much much more durable SE/Pro Plastic. For some reason, all night shift orcs are more overstable than usual. I've seen these orcs in Dark Blue, Deep Red, and in Turquoise. All that I've seen have more of a matte finish. Right after these got out of the factory demand exploded. Innova then made the "Special Blend" Orc in this same plastic. For those who have seen the Blue or Red Tulsa special blend orcs, the red and the blue are very close to these colors. The turquoise is sick!

I bought two of these around the same time as the First Run Tulsa orcs (of which I have 5 new ones and one in the bag).

--my account of the nightshift.




I think the NS's feel about 1000x better than the Special Blends. I have a RED, its nothing like the Tulsa Orcs Ive got. There was yellow as well, but some of those were actually Pro Orcs with a Champion stamp.

Fossil
Jul 30 2007, 08:31 AM
"Limits on wing width?" thread (http://www.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=720010&Main=719797#Post7 20010)


I didn't see a post there from Dave, and his one post on the Destroyer thread doesn't indicate anything about a design being rejected i.e. failed technical standard review. By Dave's answer I quoted he alluded to a possibility of something not passing, I was curious how often that happened.

Of course he is at Highbridge and probably won't respond to questions this week.

davei
Jul 30 2007, 08:54 AM
My question is: Is there anywhere further for you to go in the area of discs with a rim width along the lines of a Valkyrie, Teebird, Firebird? I love the Wraith and wide rimmed discs, and I'm sure the Destroyer will feel fine in my hand...

But there's a reliability I like about the Valk, Teebird, Teebird-L, etc. that I don't feel I get with the high speed tech.



The wider the rim gets, the more touchy the nose angle becomes. The most reliable disc we have in long range, at this time is the Star Starfire, and the newer Champion Starfire. Most of the other long range discs turn more or less depending on a slight nose angle adjustment. That can make a 50 ft left right difference downfield. Nose angle sensitivity might be a good thing to differentiate skill levels as you just can't just rip with impunity. But as an individual golfer, I would like something that gives me a margin of error for nose angle.

A highly skilled driver, (which I no longer am), can use the nose angle sensitivity to make the discs do what he wants. The rest of use are at the mercy of the margin of error.


Okay, good to know... but my question was if there is anything you feel you can still do at that rim width? Do you believe that there is something that hasn't been done at that narrow, reliable width? Any more developments that can still come about at it?



Yes, there are some things I am working on, but haven't solved yet.

davei
Jul 30 2007, 08:57 AM
After approval we are obligated to make at least 1500 commercially available. That requirement has been met. It is the approval that is 30 days prior to a major event. It was not approved in time for AM Worlds, (missed by one day), but was approved for Pro Worlds, as per Jeff Homburg. It wouldn't make sense to start full production before approval, as they might not pass.



Dave,
When was the last time you sent something for PDGA approval and had it rejected? Other than a borderline flexibility problem with the three samples submitted (given "Manufacturers are required to send samples of the most rigid discs they want considered for PDGA approval") aren't the other parameters so well established that any problem there would be addressed earlier in the design process than the submission run?
Just curious.



We recently had a disc rejected and have had to grind them up as we mistakenly thought they would pass and had already made the initials runs. That was costly. The disc was supposed to be a power driver for Discmania.

gokayaksteven
Jul 30 2007, 10:28 AM
why was the disc rejected? going to use the grounds for a special run of anything? dx tees?
also, are you going to do the cro in dx? it feels great, and flys in between my dx spiders and champ gators. actually, it flys alot like a dx gator and/or a star/champ spider. any chance of a star gator-x?