Thanks forgot about the player bio!

Thanks forgot about the player bio!



Well if itr would get updated you would see that I use the Med Glow Wizards and I actually like the stiffest ones I can find for putting but its hard to find them.

what's up with glow wizards? I have had so many requests for them and know a ton of people who use them. I didn't find anything to special about them

what's up with glow wizards? I have had so many requests for them and know a ton of people who use them. I didn't find anything to special about them



I used to putt with the glow Wizards. I liked them because they had a chalky feel yet were fairly stiff. Usually the chalky Wizards are softer. That is why I used them.

I like them because they strike a good balance between softness of feel and stiffness of the plastic. Some of them are pretty darn soft and others are closer to firm so it's not real consistent. I bought one for night play and started using it for everything! My biggest problem with them is how easily they beat up, especially playing with Innova baskets that have the yellow band on the top - chews them to shreds!

I like them because they strike a good balance between softness of feel and stiffness of the plastic. Some of them are pretty darn soft and others are closer to firm so it's not real consistent. I bought one for night play and started using it for everything! My biggest problem with them is how easily they beat up, especially playing with Innova baskets that have the yellow band on the top - chews them to shreds!




Mine is still in great shape after 6 months. :D

I can feel how much weight has been lost due to the 90-degree angle on those yellow metal bands. Looks like it tried to hug a weed wacker. Doesn't stay 175 for very long!

From what I hear they does not change the way they fly. Hey Matt where is a good place to get gateway disc's in DFW?

I have had all the different firmnesses and I havent seen a flight difference. I use soft for putting though because they just feel the best in my hands.

From what I hear they does not change the way they fly. Hey Matt where is a good place to get gateway disc's in DFW?



I would say that the best bet is to call the shop but I think Dave may have been telling me that there was a new distributer/seller in the DFW area. Then again I may be wrong. :D

I like them because they strike a good balance between softness of feel and stiffness of the plastic. Some of them are pretty darn soft and others are closer to firm so it's not real consistent. I bought one for night play and started using it for everything! My biggest problem with them is how easily they beat up, especially playing with Innova baskets that have the yellow band on the top - chews them to shreds!




Mine is still in great shape after 6 months. :D



I've been using the Shawn Sinclair hand me downs for over a year and they're still money.

From what I hear they does not change the way they fly. Hey Matt where is a good place to get gateway disc's in DFW?

The entire structure of the putter has been altered in only a few months. It went from a straight to overstable putter to less stable than a Z-Putt'r. The yellow Innova bands cut large gouges out of soft plastic; even my Star Aviar has lost plastic from them. They fly the same for 25 footers, anything outside of that requires adjustment as the putter ages

I can feel how much weight has been lost due to the 90-degree angle on those yellow metal bands. Looks like it tried to hug a weed wacker. Doesn't stay 175 for very long!



Losing gram(s) of plastic off a disc HAS to affect the flight. BTW, I once threw a medium Wizard and it landed on a rough road (tar & gravel) about 250' away. It was the first time I threw the disc and the road literally sanded the bead off half the disc. It went from overstable to super flippy after one throw!

I wonder if #1 in disc golf will ever fix that problem. If it was a desighn flaw you would think #1 would fix it. However, if create a way to accelerate product demand by fabricating a target that will ruin the product during normal use - well that is genius! To bad we continue to support this kind of stuff in the sport we love!

If I ever get the chance to help install a course I will do everything I can to ensure the placement of baskets that are putter-safe! Until that time, I will continue to bad-mouth Innova banded baskets.

If I ever get the chance to help install a course I will do everything I can to ensure the placement of baskets that are putter-safe! Until that time, I will continue to bad-mouth Innova banded baskets.



How in the world does it f'up your putter? You obviously aren't hitting it square because that wouldn't chip it but hitting the edge it TOUGH. The Discatchers are my favorite baskets that I get to play on a lot in tournies because they catch good and they don't have bounce outs or cutthroughs like Machs and chainstars.

Of course the TITANS catch better but I only play on them during casual rounds in STL. :D

Word!

If I ever get the chance to help install a course I will do everything I can to ensure the placement of baskets that are putter-safe! Until that time, I will continue to bad-mouth Innova banded baskets.



How in the world does it f'up your putter? You obviously aren't hitting it square because that wouldn't chip it but hitting the edge it TOUGH. The Discatchers are my favorite baskets that I get to play on a lot in tournies because they catch good and they don't have bounce outs or cutthroughs like Machs and chainstars.

Of course the TITANS catch better but I only play on them during casual rounds in STL. :D



make a common mistake and put a little to high. When your disc goes skims the top of the basket and you see pieces of plastic shooting of you disc you will know what we are talking about.

If I ever get the chance to help install a course I will do everything I can to ensure the placement of baskets that are putter-safe! Until that time, I will continue to bad-mouth Innova banded baskets.



How in the world does it f'up your putter? You obviously aren't hitting it square because that wouldn't chip it but hitting the edge it TOUGH. The Discatchers are my favorite baskets that I get to play on a lot in tournies because they catch good and they don't have bounce outs or cutthroughs like Machs and chainstars.

Of course the TITANS catch better but I only play on them during casual rounds in STL. :D





Eagle Point Park in Clinton, Iowa is putting in 18 Titans. The course is going to be sick and I cant wait to play on these baskets weekly.

Tried out the Super Soft Warlocks. Lots of float and carry, a little more than I like, but the plastic feels so good its worth the re-learning.

Throwing the "stiff as a board" red E-Sabres as well. They are pretty sweet, with a little more distance than the normal Sabres. IMO. Still waiting on some of the stiffer Pearl-types for myself.

Oh, and the best midrange out, the Element-X. Tried the pearl versions of this and it compares more to a Roc than the previous versions Ive tried due to stability. Brand new, you can get on them and they hold dead straight lines with a subtle fade at the end. Its a good match for the beefy version Im already throwing.

The new plastic is going over very well David. Nice Work!

Tried out the Super Soft Warlocks. Lots of float and carry, a little more than I like, but the plastic feels so good its worth the re-learning.



This is so true. I have 3 175g SS in the newer plastic. They feel amazing, but when I throw them, they have so much float that I feel like I'm throwing ~165g. Either way, the plastic feels amazing, so I will continue adjusting to get used to these. :cool:

Tried out the Super Soft Warlocks. Lots of float and carry, a little more than I like, but the plastic feels so good its worth the re-learning.



This is so true. I have 3 175g SS in the newer plastic. They feel amazing, but when I throw them, they have so much float that I feel like I'm throwing ~165g. Either way, the plastic feels amazing, so I will continue adjusting to get used to these. :cool:





I agree completely. I talked to Dave on Monday and told him they were like using very lightweight putters!

Dave, did you receive my message to you? If not , send me a PM and I'll ask again.

i was wondering if anyone has thrown these nike inferno's?

I'm throwing a 137g. It's crazy long for me. Fun disc.

I've thrown a 141g. Takes a bit of adjusting to the light weight. But they do fly quite far.

Are more soft glow wizards going to be run soon? I'm having a hard time finding max weight soft glow wizards online.

what timing,
we just ran some Glow super soft wizards today.
I may try and get a few regular softs and mediums on Tuesday!
ask your local retail store or on line vendor to give us a call.

BTW,
when practice putting at the factory this week, I really noticed the difference between the Wizards and warlocks.
Its mostly when putted nose up and with reverse, they just stay up in the air longer with less effort.
I personally cannot feel the difference in my hand between the Wizards and Warlocks when using a fan-grip or putter grip, only when I power grip.

We have a run of Super Stupid Soft Wizards that are proto-style, meaning they are like eraser rubber and really grainny feeling on the surface, not gummy like the last batch of super stupid softs, so it looks like we are going to have a gummy and a proto-style eraser run of the SSS!

Are more soft glow wizards going to be run soon? I'm having a hard time finding max weight soft glow wizards online.




I have some. If you get there before everyone else reading this. They are going out faster than Chuck Liddell.

They arent loaded into the website, and Im pretty sure they are all max weight or close. I think there is 5 left. They have a green tint to them now to distinguish them from other Wizards.....and they are blank!

Try: store@ironliondgs.com if your in need!

Thanks for sending those Warlocks up with Pat, David.

Im going out now to throw them around in the yard, later today at the course. So far, the stiff WHITE "E"s have to be my favorite. They feel as close to a true 1st Run CE Aviar as any disc Ive come into contact with since 01.

I also like the grey "E"s, and have one that Ive been banging off the outside wall of the shop. I dont know why, 25 drives into a brick wall from 15ft, and its still BRAND NEW.

I guess if you want to have the most indestructable plastic on the planet thats your problem. :D

Hey Chase,
Did you get a chance to check out the Glow effect?
There is a heavy loading of the glow material They seem to be the brightest Glow so far, even with the green tint.

Did he bring up any of the Eraser SSS White Wizards?

Hey Chase,
Did you get a chance to check out the Glow effect?
There is a heavy loading of the glow material They seem to be the brightest Glow so far, even with the green tint.

Did he bring up any of the Eraser SSS White Wizards?




You can see the glows through the shop window at night. :D

They are , by far, the best glow discs on the market.


Im not sure, but think he showed me a few of those yesterday. Ill be seeing him again at some point today.

I'm on vacation in the smoky mountains this week so I took a blurr and threw it off one of the mountains. Put tons of anhyzer on it and watched it fly forever!!! I felt bad because I was littering but it was amazing.

Are there any plans to run the Diablo DT in SRP plastic? The grip and added stability the SRP gave the RIDTs was great and I'd like to see it in the diablo.

Still asking: When will the Diablo DT's be available to the general public ?

We will be shipping the Diablo's to Auto ship customers on the week of June 18th.
If you know of a club or store that is interested in getting on the auto ship program please call the shop 314 487 5204 or email david@gdstour.com

Is Marshall Street on that program?

they will start shipping monday the 25th!

Yes ms is part of the A-s Program

Are there any plans to run the Diablo DT in SRP plastic? The grip and added stability the SRP gave the RIDTs was great and I'd like to see it in the diablo.

I would say the Diablo's are closer to SRP than the regular Evolution pro line we run here in St Louis, as the they are run at the chicago plant.
Both blends use the same basic polymers, with ratios and injection profiles being somewhat different.
We use about 10% of an (original CE type material) in the E that makes them a bit less flexible!
Lots of the newer players do prefer the flexible gummy feel and the durability winds up being pretty close to the same.
It's more the sharper nose radius and thinner flight plates that could allow these type of drivers to break in a little quicker than discs with broader noses and thicker flight plates!

We just found out today that the Diablos are finally shipping out tomorrow as they've been waiting on the hotstamp. We still have them on PRE-ORDER (http://www.sunkingdiscs.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=1454) for anyone interested. In addition, we received some of the Eraser Wizards in today and should have them on the site tomorrow.

Dave, what is the sure-grip plastic? How does it differ from regular plastic, specifically in soft and super soft wizards? Thanks.

Dave, what is the sure-grip plastic? How does it differ from regular plastic, specifically in soft and super soft wizards? Thanks.



The sure-grip is just the "S" plastic and is basically a much more durable D or DX plastic.

Does anyone have any feed back on the latest runs of the Diablo Dt?
I played a whole round with just one Diablo-Dt at Creve Coeur today on my bike.
I was pretty amazed on how controllable it was for mid range shots once I got it dialed in.
I also threw some big time rollers with it even at 70% power it was rolling over 450'.


Any reviews???

Have you tweaked the molds any, or enhanced the plastic since the BG Ams 1st Runs?

i picked up a couple of the new runs and i think they're a little more stable. the 179g (yellow) i got is actually somewhat beefy. i can't flip it. although, it's the heaviest one i've thrown so that might be why.

My Iron Lion triple stamped Diablo DT is about 420ft off the Tee on hole 5 at West Lake....about 30ft deep. It got there really fast.

the latest run of the Diablo Dt's all feel pretty much same with the Yellow ones being stiffer and a little more overstable than the rest than the blue ( these are the only 2 colors I have thrown, both around 170g).

the latest run of the Diablo Dt's all feel pretty much same with the Yellow ones being stiffer and a little more overstable than the rest than the blue ( these are the only 2 colors I have thrown, both around 170g).



I threw them and they seemed to be a little more HSS which I like because the other ones flipped on me a little.

David,
I just got two light purple, 175 g Diablo DTs and they are pretty HSS (more so than my ESP Pulse, if you know anything about that disc) with a very pronounced low speed fade (on a 20' throw mine fade out about 40'). They are more stable than I though they would be. But then again, I'm a 360'-390' thrower so the bigger arms will love this disc. I like them but for me I will have to use them for moderate head wind shots until they break in. Have you gotten feedback (other than here) as to which color might be more neutrally stable (middle of the road)? Just my two cents.
Kurt

I have heard that the lighter weight ones are a little easier to get over on and of course they fade a little less.

I have heard too much about color variances other than the Yellow!

(sorry, this is repost from the Diablo-DT thread, just thought i'd post here to add to the list of reviews)

I just picked up one of the stock stamped straw colored 175 gram Diablo DT's and was auditioning it yesterday in calm conditions. I started by throwing it at low speeds with low power and moved on to eventually throwing it hyzer flip to nearly full power. My furthest shot was at about 80% power and a very clean release. I was able to throw it flat and instead of flipping over the disc tracked to the right for about 325 feet then fell off left when it ran out of gas for a total of about 360 feet.

I am not a big arm but I throw pretty cleanly at that power range and max out at just over 400 feet with my wraiths. The Diablo flew about 25 feet shorter than i expected it to given the nice height and line I gave it. The disc flew more like a broke in FL and i am getting the same distance with my TeeBird though I have to throw the TB a little harder with more height.

Overall I am disappointed as when I look at the profile of this beautiful disc it has everything i would think would compose a max distanct driver. Wide rim, blade-like low profile with hyperlift edge, dual dimple arrangement and a superb dome that is smooth across the flight plate and looks like it would get great glide at low speeds.

This is not what I have found yet when throwing this disc so I am wondering if it is a disc that requires more height or if I have unreasonable expectations. In comparison, the proto e infernos (and wraiths) have much more glide at low speeds and seem to hold elevation better as they slow down.

PERSONAL THEORY: the golf style dimples on the underside of the wing reduce drag and maybe reduce air pressure under the wing. As I see it, the wing properties of a disc work becuase at velocity there is a pressure difference between the top and bottom of the wing. The underside experiences higher pressure while air moving more quickly over the top has lower pressure, giving lift to the wing. As I see it, as the dimples lower the air pressure on the underside of the wing, they in turn also lower the lift properties of the disc wing resulting in more overstable flight pattern with less glide. - Not necessarily a bad thing, just more controllable like a firebird! It is a much more practical disc than the inferno which is super flippy but has a ton more glide so I don't get the same max-D with the diablo.

All this is fine but, it makes me wonder why this disc is being touted as a long bomb. It's a low glide control driver if you ask me, like an anti-teebird that flies the same distance on a low line! Any advice/ideas are welcome (what I mean is that the TeeBird gets its distance from glide at low speed, while the diable seemingly gets its distance through high speed but has low glide)

I did the same :0

Most likely there wont be any significant differences in the protos and production runs as a whole as there are variations in both runs.
while attempting to make weight ranges there are 2 ways to make this happen.
One is to change the blend or polymers the other is to change the profile of injection.
with this reason comes the fact that even within a run ( by any company) that appears to look and feel the same the discs can still fly a little different.

The shot at Centralia was thrown at about 80% speed with close to 100 % spin ( did you hear that snap), causing it to turn with the spin more than if it were at 90/90 or even 80/80. This caused the discs to become understable as it had more snap than needed for the amount of spin i launched it with. The reason is that it had to turn right 200 feet out of the hand and then back left at 400 feet in order to get to the hole.
The disc would not have been as understable if it were released with more speed, more height or more nose up. Matching the amount of rotations with velocity is a big part of a discs stability, add in launch trajectory, angle of nose on release and any off axis rotation and there you have why one person thinks a disc is under stable and another thinks it is overstable.

Chemo,
It took my 50 or so throws before I could figure out exactly how a diablo-dt should be thrown, which is with less speed more spin for more accurate shots. The disc is so fast it does not need your speed, but does need your spin.
Try backing off on the speed and working some different angles of release, I think you will find some amazing results!!!!!!!!!!!!
*
The dimples do reduce the drag as does the textured surface on top which is just as important and allows the disc to maintain its speed longer than a discs with the same shape that is without the new technology. The biggest and most noticeable difference in throwing Dimple technology discs would be for a player that can only throw 45 mph with around 1200 rotations per minute, which is a little more than an average drive of 300 feet, as he will be able to maintain that speed with a stable flight as long as there is enough spin on the disc to meet the speed.
a player than can throw non dimpled discs 300 feet will be able to throw discs with Dimple technology closer to 360 or 20% farther! Ive seen it happen to too many players already for this not to be true!!


Once gyroscopic style discs ( wider rimmed) start to lose rotation they will want to fall against the spin while a centrifugal style disc ( mid-range with thicker flight plates and smaller wings) can continue to glide even when they lose spin and speed.

Thanks for the advice Dave. The last time I focused on rotation instead of speed was learning to throw light weight plastic (150 gummy champ TeeBird is a bomber) with a clean, hard snap instead of pure arm speed. I'll see what I can do this coming week with the Diablo and report back.

cool Chemo,,,
you seem technical enough to make the adjustments for test flying. Applying it to your regular game could be more difficult.

I also occasionally back off on the grip for the Diablo-Dt to a stacked grip and not a power grip when test flying them, this reduces the amount of rotation when I'm also backing off on speed. I mainly due this because of the shallow rim. I also stack grip the sabres for mid-range style shots as well as elements, other than that I either full fan or full power grip all other shots.

Attention Gateway Heads - We're bringing about 500 discs to the Am Worlds FlyMart from the GatewayUnderground.com (http://www.gatewayunderground.com) vaults. Sun King Disc Sports will be offering S/H discs at 5/$25 and E discs at 5/$35...can you dig it?

The King has spoken!

Dave, can you offer some advice when it comes to my Diablo? The thing is, when I throw it flat, the disc turns like a sidewinder and will go forever but when I need it for anyhyzer shots I will throw the disc to make it turnover, but it quicky stables out, and hyzers off. This doesnt happen to my other discs, not even my Raging Inferno's which will hold a line for a while before coming out.

I also have a question on the differences between the SSS and the Eraser Wizards. What benefits does each plastic offer over the other, and what differences do they have to each other when putting? Is ones plastic better for driving than putting for example? And how well would each hold up when it comes to scuffing?

Dave, can you offer some advice when it comes to my Diablo? The thing is, when I throw it flat, the disc turns like a sidewinder and will go forever but when I need it for anyhyzer shots I will throw the disc to make it turnover, but it quicky stables out, and hyzers off. This doesnt happen to my other discs, not even my Raging Inferno's which will hold a line for a while before coming out.



My first guess would be your getting the disc nose up, try throwing it lower than you have been for you reverse shots.
Teaching a player to throw high shots nose down is pretty hard unless your right there with the guy.
You may want to lean back instead of raising your arm when throwing turnovers right out of the hand.
The second guess would be you lack spin vs speed or possibly just lack speed.

Can you throw your putter over 300 feet?
If not, I assume you lack power, most players maximum powere release will be right across the chest. Do you bend at the torso when you throw hyzer flips and do you lean back when you want to reverse the discs right out of the hand?

How far do you usually end up in front of your release when you are trying to throw far? ( do you follow through the shots with your hips and legs?

Since I have never actually seen you throw and evaluated your technique ( which includes speed, rotation, off axis rotation and trajectory) I wouldn't be able to tell you why your discs fly differently than say mine or anyone else's.

The Diablo Dt is considered a slightly overstable disc, below are our rating numbers:
speed = 10, Glide = 10, resistance to turn ( HSS) = 2 fade = 3, so its a pretty fast and straight disc.

With the risk of offending you your rating is 870 and you haven't been playing very long. I'm guessing lots of discs seem to not do for you what other people say they do for them.

If you like the feel and flight of any disc keep working with that discs, if you have more confidence in other discs, work with them.

If you want some really good advice, find the best player you can to give you a lesson ( shawn sinclair, Julianna, or DR Rick) and stop buying discs until you get a professional series of lessons.
Chances are 1 - $40 lesson will be more valuable for your game than $200.00 worth of new discs.

On the putter questions.
The eraser was a prototype batch ( total made = 400) from short shots, light and heavy shots, that ranges from mostly SSS to 25% soft with a few mediums. When you have run TPV's once and grind them up they often get a grainy or gritty feel on the surface.

I know the white SSS will hardly scuff up at all, but Ive seen a few of the erasers get nice and used looking.
I played with a guy the other day that had a very used eraser that he threw his lay up shots with and it flew perfectly straight, personally I would never use a really soft putter for laying up as I dont want my thumb going into the flight plate. Point is feel is everything as it adds a lot to the confidence you have in the disc.

go to you tube and search Centralia disc golf if you want to see how you explode through a shot after release.

Well I cant answer all the questions about my form as I have never seen myself play, but what confused me was a post on the BG Ams thread when I asked how the Diablo would fy and you replied like a Sidewinder, but once you showed the stats it makes the disc much easier to throw now. Knowing that it is actually stable, and not understable keeps me from getting mad at the disc and myself. Also, the advice earlier to another post about throwing it 80% power really helps. I am now able to throw this disc with more confidence.

And no, you didnt offend me with the rating comment. I deserve to be where I am. I may not like my rating, but like all of us I have to earn a good one and work harder. Also, about Shawn and Juliana, they're never out on the courses, and I dont know have their emails so would you have a way of contacting them for me? Dr. Rick says Shawn is the best disc golf teacher he knows, but Doc is always working so he doesnt really go out on the courses much either.

Juliana has a Myspace account. My friend messaged her and she messaged him back so, obviously she checks it. ;)

shawn@gdstour.com or go to their my space account

Chemo,
you back from testing the diablos yet? /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Oh, yes, thank you for the reminder Dave,
First of all the SRP plastic is great (175 straw yellow Diablo DT). It is holding up very well and has a good texture, I always felt confident about a consistent release.

As per your recommendation, I tried putting a little more pop into my drive focusing on getting rotations and not throwing as hard and was happy to see that the Diablo responded well. I also took off most all of the hyzer at release and focused on smooth, flat and low and the Diablo performed extremely consistently. With very little effort the disc would hold a totally straight line for about 250' and then take a swooping hyzer for another 50'. On the right surface the diablo also skipped easily. With only slightly more effort I was able to carve a perfect downhill hyzer for about 350' and I felt like that was where the Diablo shined.

I had less success when throwing the Diablo with a hyzer or nose-up release as it would climb and hyzer too early for me. I did not experiment with anhyzer release enough but the couple times I tried it, the Diablo refused to keep its nose down. I would probably have to use more angle or just have more power overall to turn over the Diablo. I think the Diablo loves a nose-down release and performs especially well slightly downhill.

try turnovers all the way adjusting the height and speed!

nose down turovers!

We just made a run of Diablo-DT's that are very flexible with a very nice smooth dome on them.
We used a different Hot Stamp ( John Dorns western diablo art) and they are labeled HI- Flex!
I dont think they are as flexible as the discraft FLX plastic, but for anyone who likes a softer grippy springy feel in their drivers has said they feel sweet.
The abrasion and impact durability of the surface is awesome and they will be available for customers next Tuesday. We have plenty of cool tye dyed Diablo's in the Hi-Flex as well.

Do we just call the office to order some, or will they be sent out to those on the Auto Ship program?

Also, how much are the Titan baskets? We're looking to install a new course here in Bowling Green, and our course committee is currently looking at different prices for signs and baskets. We're positive that we'll go with signs from DGA, and possibly the Mach III baskets but I just want to know how much your baskets are.

Cheaper that Mach III's

I wish we had titans at our new course in Nicholaville. I have at least 2 cut throughs or bounce outs every time i play a round there.

we really only sell course design and installation, but the retail price is $400.00

Dave, what does Gateway offer (if anything) in the form of course and/or club sponsorship? Bowling Green is building a new course, or we're trying to, and the club is looking at various companies and business that might be interested in helping us create a new championship course. The reward is your name and/or logo permanently placed on a teesign, but first I need to know if Gateway even participates in these types of fundraising efforts.

Hopefully you guys in BG will install a course with more par 4's and 5's with a total par of 68 or higher!
If you need some help in designing a course like that, I'm the man, Just put me in touch with someone at the parks department and I will see what I can do to help!

We have one hole that is 900ft+ planned, an 800 footer and one 750ft. with an uphill slope before it goes back to flat. Half of the course will probably be open, the other 1/2 in the woods. The wooded area is a limited area so we'd be forced to make short holes. The longest wooded hole on this pre-lim map is only 340ft unless we decide to ultilize the island which could have monster holes in tight woods (like Centralia) but to build the bridge would be expensive and the island floods heavily about twice a year and its during our BG Ams and Open tourneys that the rains hit hard and flood that area. Our committee is getting really close to coming up with a final decision. If we decide to utilize the island we would either make it a temporary 6 holes for the tournaments, or a 24 hole course. We are really working hard to make this a championship course.

How much do you charge to design and install courses? Our club is getting ready to vote on whether or not to become a legal business entity, and if we do then tourism is giving us a $20,000 grant, and the person we're naming the course after is donating $7,500 of his own money along with the potential $5,400 for sponsorship from companies ($300 sponsor per tee sign). If we do receive all this money ($32,900 total) how much would it cost to hire Gateway? We have always had the parks department, along with club members build the courses but if Gateway can make us better course with a smaller cost then I'm definitely going to recommend you all for the job.

Hey Dave, I got a Diablo in a trade earlier this week, and it's much more flexible than the other production runs (very similar to Discraft FLX), as well as more high speed stable. The disc isn't marked as the high-flex plastic, but do you know if these runs are similar to the high-flex? I really liked the way this particular plastic felt in my hand.

There were some high flex Diablos run. The one I have seen have the user-submitted "vigilante" style stamp

There were some high flex Diablos run. The one I have seen have the user-submitted "vigilante" style stamp



The one i have is the stock stamp, but much much more flexible than my production reds, or even my protos. The one I have looks like a swirl cream/white with either red or orange in it.

I know all of the 2nd run diablos ( Hi-Flex) are either custom stamped or stamped with the Diablo-Dude.

There were a few really flexible ones in the 1st run, mostly white or red, sounds like the one you have might be between the 2 colors.

The HI-flex are a bit more overstable, especially the flatter ones. There are a few domey and Hi-Flex that are about the same stability as the 1st runs, but not too many!

We are hoping to get the 3rd run of Diablos in a more traditional Evolution plastic, which would make them less flexible and probably less overstable.

Recently we had a run of Baby Blue Evolution Illusions that I think are the farthest flying discs we have ever made here in St louis.
They are a bit High speed under stable but only flip over slightly. The glide before hyzering back is almost unbelievable and the distance we are getting on golf style shots is incredible.
we may try to make a run of Glow E illusions or Blurrs tomorrow, if not that monday!

I still tend to lean toward the E Diablos. Playing in the mountains you throw less stable plastic. I was able to get my E Diablos out to 420 ft. on average. I threw downhill in a long-drive competition and was putting them out to about 600-610 ft. on a long straight drive without any turnover or fade. It would be nice to have a disc similar to this with a better high speed turn and similar low speed fade. It would make for huge drives.

Dave, please let us know when those traditional E Diablos make it out of the factory. It sounds like you're got some great plastics/discs comming out right now.

how can i get a hold of those E illusions?

The best way to get some of the baby blue E Illusions would be by calling the shop!

Dave, a few quick questions:
Are you ever going to run Warlocks in the Supersoft Plastic?
And,
What is the best disc to use for thumbers (I currently use a Firebird)?

spirit is a great thumber disc.

I am interested if the Glow Illusions/Blurrs were a go...

Dave has run the Warlock in Supersoft and they are money. He is also producing them in Super Stupid Soft. I had a large order for my recent tourney. I owe Dave alot for getting me to switch to Gateway. I have taken about 6-8 strokes off my game throwing nothing but Gateway.

Quick question about the Sabres and Hybrids. Could you explain the differences between the two like glide, and fade, and speed, etc? I love my sabre but need something a tad but more stable. I love it for all around shots, but just need more stability. The Blaze is stable, but too stable for my needs except for when there is wind.

Which plastic do you have the Blaze in? The newer gummy E plastic is fairly stable compared to the older Warrior in H plastic. My Sabre is also in gummy E and I love it for control shots.

Son_of_The_Dude-
I think you just answered you own question. The hybrid falls between the two. The Hybrid doesn't have the same amount of glide as the Sabre as it is faster with more LSS (low speed stablity). If another company produced the blaze and hybrid, it would be the blaze and the blaze L mold.

the hybrid i have is more overstable than my blazes. could just be a crazy disc though.

i've beat up some blazes to fly in between the two. that's the only solution that's obvious to me. hit more trees.

Son_of_The_Dude-
I think you just answered you own question. The hybrid falls between the two. The Hybrid doesn't have the same amount of glide as the Sabre as it is faster with more LSS (low speed stablity). If another company produced the blaze and hybrid, it would be the blaze and the blaze L mold.


Close but the Hybrid is actually a different top, not wing ( which is what the L is used for in starfires, leapords and teebirds) and is only about .060 thick compared to .090 of the sabre and .085 of the blaze.
When we get the DT wing finished for the Sabre, hybrid, Blaze and Demon, it will be the Hybrid that emerges as the real winner and is originally why we named the disc hybrid because it is going to be a hybrid of the golf disc with golf ball technology.

So all 3 share the same wing-Is there a disc that shares the Hybrid top?

So the Hybrid is indeed more stable than the Sabre? That is good to know because I need something with a more reliable fade, and something that will S out as well. As stated earlier, the Blaze can do this, but just a lil bit too stable for most fairway shots, and I just dont feel like beating it up yet.

Recently we had a run of Baby Blue Evolution Illusions that I think are the farthest flying discs we have ever made here in St louis.
They are a bit High speed under stable but only flip over slightly. The glide before hyzering back is almost unbelievable and the distance we are getting on golf style shots is incredible.
we may try to make a run of Glow E illusions or Blurrs tomorrow, if not that monday!



I called the shop today and they said that the Glow Blurrs were not run. Any timeline on when it might happen? :cool:

spirit is a great thumber disc.



they dont lfy like Fire Birds though. They spiral to fast.

I use E Blaze, or E demons depending on the disctance of the shot

i have a sbre in the gummy E plastic and it seems that is slower than the S plastic. am i crazy or could this actually happen.

they dont lfy like Fire Birds though. They spiral to fast.


you're nuts.

they dont lfy like Fire Birds though. They spiral to fast.


you're nuts.



Why would you say that?

Im not hating on Gateway, Its all I throw! But the truth is a Spirit does not fly like a fire bird! It cant, they are different discs! How is that nuts!

Spirits are less stable IMO than a Firebird. Heck, I think Firebirds are just as stable as Max's, at least a new Champ Firebird. The closest to a Firebird that I can think of would be the Blaze, but I compare that to a Banshee.

i forgot most people don't throw the flat top spirits. that's all i throw for thumbers and they are way more overstable than a firebird. if i'm not feeling 100% i can't get them to spiral at all unless i start the turn a little bit from my hand. so insanely overstable.

i haven't thrown a regular spirit in a long time though, so you could be right, but i still find it unlikely. i can't imagine that the spirit isn't at least AS overstable.

in my experience: every spirit i have tried is more overstable than the firebirds i have thrown, except for maybe the 2nd run flat top yellow ce firebirds.

I've thrown five or so spirits all from different runs and every one of them has been so overstable that it was unusable for backhand shots. Unless you wanted a shot where you order up a roller and get a nose dive hyzer.

I use a Spirit as a thumber when I need distance, otherwise I use a Rage to get the faster turn out of the thumber. I have not seen the difference in the gummy. I would like a Fairway driver with more stability than the Blaze, the Demon is just too slow for 400-450 ft. downhill shots.

Check these out:

Gateway Elite Z Sabre (http://sunkingdiscs.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=1609)
Gateway Elite Z Spirit (http://sunkingdiscs.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=1610)
Gateway ESP? Spirit (http://sunkingdiscs.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=1611)

I've thrown five or so spirits all from different runs and every one of them has been so overstable that it was unusable for backhand shots. Unless you wanted a shot where you order up a roller and get a nose dive hyzer.


Chemo,
believe it or not Spirits do get broken in to become straight flying discs with a predictable HYzer at the very end,,,, REALLY They do!
You may/will have to intentionally get one broken in to see them fly straight and also be able to throw hard low line drives .
Almost all of our team members have a broken in flat flying Spirit in their bag!
My spirit is much straighter than my beefy illusion. If I turn it over it stays over!

We have the rage and now the Blast Dt which are tamed down versions of the spirit for those with less power.
Again some players may need to get them broken in to fly flat, but others can throw rages flat right out of the box.

Now if they had some in ESP FLX that would be just as sweet as the gummy E.

OOOH! ESP Flex Spirit in 150 class.

That's like the most overstable wet paper plate on earth!

Ok this might be dumb but if it happened and turned out well it would find a way into my bag. Have you ever thought about creating a Demon the size of an Element? Basically a big glidey Demon that would get a little more carry while sacrificing a bit of speed. Don't get me wrong, I love my Elements and have loved a Demon since I got my first protos but sometimes a Demon doesn't have the carry and an Element just isn't made for a headwind. I have tried Element X's in both E and S plastic but they just aren't to my tastes. I do understand that there is a substantial investment in creating a new mold so it probably won't happen in the near future, but I can dream right?

I still have some of the Clear gummy E Spirits and I believe some are in the 160g range. It's about as close as you'll get to ESP FLX...

There are 2 versions of The blast-dt we just ran.
One is similar to the old nike spirits in flex and slight dome and the other is more firm and a little on the domey side!
I would say the Nike stuff is closer to original CE plastic than anything Ive seen lately!

When are you planning on adding the Rage and the Blast-DT to your web site?

Do you think you'll ever make your drivers in Super Stupid Soft plastic anytime in the future?? I love the SSS Wizard, and would enjoy throwing discs like my Spirit, and Sabre and ELX in the SSS plastic.

OOOH! ESP Flex Spirit in 150 class.

That's like the most overstable wet paper plate on earth!




LOL.

Or better, an ULTRALIGHT ESP FLX Spirit baked in the Sun for a few hours!

Do people really want SSS drivers?

If so, can you give me a few reason why?

Rodney,
are you saying the Element-X isn't stable enough for you or doesn't glide enough?
I saw guys throwing them today into 20 MPH head winds and they seemed to work pretty well.
we will end up adding a concave and bead to the Element and element-X tops at some point, which could give both a little more High speed stability.
I think some players would like an S element that was a little beefier!!!

Dont know of anyone else who does. I just like really like the feel of the SSS plastic as I'm sure others do and just wanted to know whether or not drivers would be made in this plastic.

I love the grip i can get on the flexy srp diablos. It makes up for the the disc being shallow.

I just picked up a few quadsoft wizards too, they seem to have more "memory" than the SSS. The SSS wizards and warlocks wouldn't pop back into place if bent, and they hardened substantially from when i first bought them. What's the cause behind this?

One more question, which run/color/distinguishing feature on Blurrs after the proto runs fly most similar to the protos? I can get a hold of a few more from Dynamic Discs, but if I ever run out of them I don't know what i would do. All of the other blurrs i've thrown have beaten in too quickly.

The yellow blurrs from the 2nd run disfigure easy, but keep the flight the same. they start off super beefy, but after one or two good whacks, they're money. and when they get to that stage they stay there for a long time. They are domey pop tops like the pink protos.

I guess it depended on the Element-X.
I had a milky E that was practically a Demon. At least close enough it didn't make sense to carry the extra disc.
I also had 3 S protos that were nice without wind. They were 174, 178, and 182 or 3. The light one turned over a bit and had nice glide. The 2 heavier ones would hold a nice line but would sometimes turn over. I just didn't have the trust in the S Element-X's that I guess I am so used to in my Demons. :D

Oh, BTW SSS Wizards are awesome. I got one at our GDS event Saturday. That is one of the better feeling putters I have ever touched. Any word yet on how they get when broken in ?

Rod,
did Brad have any of the recent runs of ELX?
They are from a larger more consistent run than the early ELX's you are talking about!

The SSS plastic in the Wizards and warlocks does have a lot of rubber which gives them good abrasion resistance, impact and a lot of memory.
I know it takes a long time for ANY of our putters to actually get broken in and change in flight.
The stiffer the putter the sooner the bead will get worn down and become a little less overstable.

I"m not sure about a run of quad s putters, is it marked that way?
There were a few that were softer than SSS but only about 20, but there is no reason it would get stiffer that I can think of! ( unless it was baked in the sun)

As for the runs of Blurr, I would say that we have runs of white that have a lot of urethane in them and fly similar to the proto runs in stability.
They have a pearl essence look to them, some are a little domey, but not as domey as the protos.

The Baby Blue Illusions are money

The Baby Blue Illusions are money


word. can't wait to heal up so i can start throwing mine.

pearl essence

The Baby Blue Illusions are money



I just bought mine over the weekend and man I can do everything with this driver!

i just starting throwing some gateway again as well. wizards and spirits are money. any word on some more reliable drivers? the diablos are pretty okay, but they never flew well for me.

i would suggest e illusions or e blurr. i throw those the most.

How do the Blast-DT's fly?

Does anyone even have Blast-DTs? I emailed David last week and never heard back...

The Blast DT is a slightly faster Rage and they fade a bit later in the flight and are also a little more LSS ( they fade a little more)

i just starting throwing some gateway again as well. wizards and spirits are money. any word on some more reliable drivers? the diablos are pretty okay, but they never flew well for me.



Baby Blue E Illusions, Calvin!!! I've been outdriving my Diablo's and Raging Inferno's with this disc by about 30 feet.

Does anyone even have Blast-DTs? I emailed David last week and never heard back...


Ebay-
http://search.stores.ebay.com/Dynamic-Di...9230667QQsofpZ0 (http://search.stores.ebay.com/Dynamic-Discs_blast_W0QQfciZQ2d1QQfclZ3QQfsnZDynamicQ20Dis csQQfsooZ1QQfsopZ1QQsaselZ189230667QQsofpZ0)

Well, we are looking to buy more than one from Ebay. I am starting to get Gateway discs moved at our club...

Congrats Dave on the win!!

That's the best Chucky Cheese look-O-like smile I've ever seen.


hehe

GO get'm at USDGC....

Dave,
I really don't know which ones he had. I was too interested in the SSS Wizards myself. I ended up picking up one of those and one of the teal S Warlocks as a backup for the one in my bag. Don't know why I needed another Warlock really. I still haven't managed to beat the first one up. :DOh now I remember, because those things fly FAR.

As far as breaking in Gateway putters, I'm not sure it can be done. I have a med Wizard I have been throwing for short drives (pretty much our entire woods course) for nearly 3 years and it still doesn't want to flip.

Quad S? The one I got was marked SSS on the bottom and had the $$$ stamp. Too bad he didn't get more of those. Everyone I've shown it to has really liked it.

The Diablo DT's were well received though. Everyone that got one of those has been just going nuts over it.

Quad S?? There's an even softer one now??

it's more of a softer than normal SSS

Do they run in specific colors? I have a blue one, but have not felt any others.

this sssoft plastic thing is starting to get out of hand...
http://www.theonion.com/content/node/33930

That is f@#*ing hilarious ... Thanks for the laugh.

And now for the super stupid seriously sumptuous sloppy soft melt in your hand putter, LOL!

this sssoft plastic thing is starting to get out of hand...
http://www.theonion.com/content/node/33930



LMAO!!! I guess next is the Supercalifragilisticexpiealidocious Soft Putter.

Any new discs coming this fall?

WOW,,,,I guess its been a while since I checked in here.


here goes some answers:

The Blast DT flies like a slightly faster Rage and fades later in the flight ( for most). Hopefully they get pdga approved this early next week and we start shipping them out. I would say they are really similar to a flick and are great for side arms and tomahawks.

The baby Blue Illusions are in most of our team members bags by now and the general consensus is they fly like a beefier Inferno, with similar glide and more resistance to turn.
For some players they are a bit flippy and do require a bit of a hyzer release if you are throwing them low and hard.
It is the longest flying disc we have ever produced here in St Louis.

While shooting for the SSS Wizards and Warlocks a few came out that were silly stupid soft and wouldn't even hold their shape. We have no plans at this time to release a SSSS versions, but like the Gillette dude says, we are now the leader in super soft putters, not followers. If someone makes a putter softer than the Stupid-SS we will make them SSSSS (silly squishy super stupid soft) if we have to!!!
Most runs of SSS will either be shades of blue, green or light purple ( the base polymer for the SSS is blue)

There are a few discs we are going to release before the year is up.
1 is a dimpled wing for the Sabre, Blaze, Hybrid and demon ( all share the same wing with different tops) this should make each model faster, less over stable and have a longer glide. I believe the Hybrid will be the cream of the Crop.

We are also going to release the Magic, which was what we were originally shooting for with the Warlock. It will have a blunter nose, less angle on a shorter wing, which will hopefully allow it to turn over. Like Rodney said, its really hard to get our Putters broken in to become turnover discs.\

We are also working with a few larger molding companies to increase our manufacturing capabilities.
The demand for our discs has sky rocketed this year and there are no signs of it slowing down. we are getting our discs out to new retail stores each week.

The next completely new model should be in that wraith/surge/inferno category and we will adjust to different stabilities from there, once the mold is up and running.


Thanks to all for the congrats on winning the sandbagging championships of the world :)!!!
I did play very well for a few of the rounds Shooting 3 rounds over a 1000 rating. Everyone knows how hard it is to shoot a 1000 rated round when everyone in the field is rated below 976 and most closer to 950.
Regardless of how long the courses were, you still had to make 99 putts to win the tournament.

We have several course design and installation contracts on the books right now and I'm not sure I can get the time off for USDGC. I;m about 30% and need to decide within days, so its not looking too good!

We are also working with a few larger molding companies to increase our manufacturing capabilities.



I will assume that is Discraft since there were the Z Spirit and the Z Sabre on Sun King not too long ago...

I am glad to hear that things are really starting to take off! That is awesome!!! :)

Congrats on the win as well. Sent another email to you yesterday but, you answered part of my questions here. :cool:

Check out the new GATEWAY UNDERGROUND eBay Store (http://stores.ebay.com/Gateway-Underground-DiscGolf-Outlet_W0QQsspagenameZMEQ3aFQ3aSTQQtZkm). We just launched it last week and we will be adding more sets tonight and tomorrow. In addition, look for some really cool unique stuff as well.

Just put up (20) Sampler Sets for $16 each on the Gateway Underground eBay Store (http://stores.ebay.com/Gateway-Underground-DiscGolf-Outlet). Everything from 150 Class to 175g.

Dave, is there any chance that you'll be continuing production of illusions that are similar to the baby blue illusions that you ran recently? if so, will you call them something else? for example, illusion L, or something like that. please keep making these!!!! i don't want to have problems finding them in the future!!!

by the way, i like the baby blue illusions ;)

i have yet to throw one. are there any left?

There are still a few left from the 1st run of the Baby blue Illusions, most are at or near max weight.
Just call the shop 314 8487 5204 or email office@gdstour.com
You should probably ask for the 1st run Baby blue if you want the ones that are easier to flip. They can be a bit touchy if you have a lot of power and are not a really smooth thrower though.
The 2nd run of Baby blue ( which there are a lot more of) have about the same amount of glide, but more resistance to turn and a little more low speed fade.
I started out throwing the 1st runs but eventually the 2nd run wound up in the starting lineup as I have a lot of power and would rather have the High speed stability to match the glide. When the 2nd runs get a little broken in they will almost fly as far as the 1st runs for me, but not quite ( about 40 feet less) 500-460.
A broken in 1st run only needs to be thrown higher to keep it from flipping and then it has a really REALLY long glide.
A lot of players have a hard time changing their launch trajectory and prefer to throw every shot the same height.


If you don't have a lot of power the 1st runs may still be a little too over stable until they get broken in some, unless you keep the drives really low to the ground.

What kind of power are we talking about here? 400+ power or like 350 with a TeeBird power?

I would say 275- 300 with a putter on flat ground is a lot of power.
It doesn't help to have finesse for this shot and while technique surely helps, without POWER, 275-300 with a putter is hard to accomplish!

some players have good enough technique to throw understable high speed drivers 400 on flat ground but may not be able to throw 200 feet up hill because they lack power.

I think of power as having the combination of speed and spin in sync with a lot of momentum.
Often players with power, who have a lot of off axis rotation cannot throw as far as those with less power who's release is much cleaner and smoother.

David,

I called GDS & ordered some of those Illusions along with some other discs a few days ago. Is there a way to tell what run I have?

i thought i had pretty good power (400') but you now have me wondering if it is more technique. i can trow a putter 300' but not sure how consistent i can do this. is there anyway to tell?

Also, are all the Blast-DTs in lower weights? I ordered 5 and all are under 170 grams...

Dave told me a while back that all the ones run were in the 160 to 170 range...

Thanks!

One mystery solved. Still wondering about the Illusions. :)

The less overstable baby blue Illusions have E-ill on the back. If you lay the disc on a table, the nose will be VERY close to the table with hardly any under-camber or deflection angle from the wing.

Most runs of Illusions have a more pronounced height difference from nose to bead making them have more resistance to turn and more low speed fade.

I'm pretty sure by now most of them are probably gone or at least spoken for.
We are going to get the Illusion mold back in the press soon and see if we can get some more produced that are the same.

The 2nd run Baby blues have a nice dome and very long glide but are not as easy to flip!

Thank you sir!

Now, I just need to pull those discs out of the Gateway box and see what ones that we have so I can tell people as they buy them. ;)

Also, are all the Blast-DTs in lower weights? I ordered 5 and all are under 170 grams...



There were a hand full that got up over 170, but very few.
The heavier ones are a little domey and firmer.
I have only test flown the flat ones that are 165, which seem to be very fast and easy to control for an overstable high speed driver.

One of the main reasons for this run of Blast Dt's was to be able to have some high speed drivers in the lower weight range. Its very difficult to get the Spirits, Speed demon Dt's, Blurrs and Illusions in the mid 160's.

So happy you guys are making illusions once again. Please find a way to make the true E Illusions once again, you know the whitish blue hue ones that get all krinkly when you hit trees. They are truly the bomb and I am almost out of them. Also the stiff hard dark blue and purple S plastic ones would be appreciated.
While I am at it run more of the clear E element X's from a year or two ago, the new stiffer E elX that just came out are really good.

We will get the Illusion mold back in the press next week and see if we can get some more ran like the Baby blues that are easier to flip up, that track over and glide forever.


We do have some clear-ish translucent polymers we are going to run in most of our discs, but it probably wont be until mid-December.
We have a really huge inventory right now of everything except E and S Hybrids.
We are going to build some new molds, mostly under stable drivers, as we are starting to get more new players using our discs.
We are focusing our efforts into getting more retail stores carrying our putters ( 2 styles X 4 flexes) for now and work on prototyping the new drivers and polymers over the winter.
Hopefully we will have several new discs and some clearish stuff ready by late winter and in time for next season!

Next season??

The season NEVER ends! Even here in Michigan!!!!!

Low temps just means lower scores! ;)

Keep up the good work!

We omly have 2 seasons: I'm Melting and Dang its hot.
I'm melting covers april-late november.
Sounds like you guys have some work coming up. Seriously, the krinkle illusions please.

By krinkle do you mean they buckle a bit or creas in the flight plate when jacked into a tree too hard?

hey dave, i just picked up some flat top spirits from someone and they're different from any plastic that i've seen from gateway. they are clear like the ice spirits, but really flexible. probably more so than any disc i've ever held. is there a special run of these or are they referred to by a certain name? just wondering in case i really like them and want to try to find them in the future...

is it possible that they are some of the Z plastic discs that i've heard about? maybe the clear SS avenger plastic or something?

No they are not Z, if they are flexible they are probably from a run we did about 3 years ago.
The run was way too flat and too over-stable to throw very well, but some players like to use them for overhand shots.

Dave, I have an old school S Blaze. The rim is much flatter compared to the new Blazes and flies more like a Teebird than an overstable midrange. Do you know where I can find these or if you will ever run them in this mold again? If not, what would you reccomend as a replacement in the Gateway lineup that would fly with the same characteristics as the Teebird?

The ones that crease the flight plate when pounded into trees. I know some think it is a sign they dont want to see in plastic, but those things are money, even creased. I believe they came out around the same time as the original blue E Illusions. and the white ones were coming out to heavy. They felt the most similar to the baby blues. If I had a camera I would take a picture.

Any more discs planned to go out to auto-ship distributors before the year is out? I had a great response to the Diablo-DT. I don't know if the Blast-DT will make its way out the door in similar fashion or not.

I look forward to seeing the Magic.

If not, what would you reccomend as a replacement in the Gateway lineup that would fly with the same characteristics as the Teebird?


Hybrid DT-whenever it comes out.

If not, what would you reccomend as a replacement in the Gateway lineup that would fly with the same characteristics as the Teebird?


Hybrid DT-whenever it comes out.



Are the Blaze, Sabre, and Hybrid DT's going to have dimples like the Diablo or the Speed Demon?

I remember hearing dimples like the diablo

Dave,
Has it been a while since you ran Firm Wizards? Are you still going to run them? I cannot find these things anywhere.

Dave,
Has it been a while since you ran Firm Wizards? Are you still going to run them? I cannot find these things anywhere.


Firm Wizards are no longer being produced. Maybe someone will buy one on ebay for $100 and more will be ran :D

Dave, I have an old school S Blaze. The rim is much flatter compared to the new Blazes and flies more like a Teebird than an overstable midrange. Do you know where I can find these or if you will ever run them in this mold again? If not, what would you recommend as a replacement in the Gateway lineup that would fly with the same characteristics as the Teebird?



These are called puffy rimmed Blazes,
I would check with Gateway Undeground, if they dont have them, shoot me an email to david@gdstour.com.

The Dimple technolgy wing we are going to put on the SABRE, HYBRID, BLAZE and DEMON should be VERY close to the same puffy look you have with that run of Blazes. The flight pattern is faster and straighter without the concave on the wing.
Should be ready right after the first of the year, most likely we will have new names or possibly call them Blaze-DT!

Any more discs planned to go out to auto-ship distributors before the year is out? I had a great response to the Diablo-DT. I don't know if the Blast-DT will make its way out the door in similar fashion or not.

I look forward to seeing the Magic.


Magic should be ready by December 1st!

Dave,
Has it been a while since you ran Firm Wizards? Are you still going to run them? I cannot find these things anywhere.


We have plenty and so should our vendors,,, they are now called Medium ;) ;) :D:o

The blue ones with the new Larger Wizard stamp are the most Firm!

If not, what would you reccomend as a replacement in the Gateway lineup that would fly with the same characteristics as the Teebird?


Hybrid DT-whenever it comes out.



Are the Blaze, Sabre, and Hybrid DT's going to have dimples like the Diablo or the Speed Demon?


They will probably need Dimples like the Diablo to have the effect we are looking for.

Jensen, I sent you a message about some wizards.

Dave,
Has it been a while since you ran Firm Wizards? Are you still going to run them? I cannot find these things anywhere.


We have plenty and so should our vendors,,, they are now called Medium ;) ;) :D:o

The blue ones with the new Larger Wizard stamp are the most Firm!




Send me the firmest ones Dave. ;)

Firm Wizards Cheap (http://www.clearwaterdiscgolfstore.com/catalog/product_info.php/manufacturers_id/5/products_id/177) Here ya go for all you firm wizard lovers

Found something interesting on the site dgdave linked. Its called an EXP 1.1. I assume the EXP stands for experimental, but what can you tell us about this disc, Dave? Is it something you have previously mentioned and I'm too lazy to look back the pages and see or is it a secret?

I think its a Millineum EXP 1.1, not Gateway

Yep, the EXP is a Millennium disc. I think it's a Banchee retool.

I think its a Millineum EXP 1.1, not Gateway



Odd that it's in the Gateway section. Had my hopes up for a new driver coming soon.

It does look like a Gateway disc, but I think that it has the wrong name attached.... It's looks kind of like an Inferno.

http://www.clearwaterdiscgolfstore.com/catalog/product_info.php/manufacturers_id/5/products_id/850

The marks on the outer rim of the ( millenium) esp are moisture marks from the polymer not being dried all the way and are not intentional.

I'm surprised they didnt notice these moisture marks improved distance< i did on the 1st few runs of polaris!

Hey Dave, I've been throwing/putting wizards for a while now. I've tried many varieties. I also throw the S demon. My favourite is an older (circa 1999-2000?) bluey-purple flat one with Demon written above the Gateway arch logo. Most of all I love this plastic for the grip, durability, and stiffness. My question is, did you run Wizards in this blend and if so which?

i would like to try out a scream DT max. i have never heard of this until recently. where can i get some?

I believe it's discontinued because I asked Steve Pearson about them and he said they are no longer made. You can try Marshall Street though. I know they have some.

its funny you mention the Scream-Dt, as I just put one in my again bag last week.
I really like the way this disc stands up and just glides forever, if we can get some runs made in our E plastic we may try and get a few thousand ran and start marketing this disc again!

its funny you mention the Scream-Dt, as I just put one in my again bag last week.
I really like the way this disc stands up and just glides forever, if we can get some runs made in our E plastic we may try and get a few thousand ran and start marketing this disc again!



Could you tell us the difference between the Scream DT Max, and the Scream DT Ultra II?

Also, a question on some Wizards. I just got 4 Eraser Wizards in today and absolutely love the feel of the plastic. Any new development on Eraser plastic for future discs??

Also, a question on some Wizards. I just got 4 Eraser Wizards in today and absolutely love the feel of the plastic. Any new development on Eraser plastic for future discs??




I much prefer the Soft black chalky prototype wizards and am anxiously awaiting another run.

Hey Dave, I've been throwing/putting wizards for a while now. I've tried many varieties. I also throw the S demon. My favourite is an older (circa 1999-2000?) bluey-purple flat one with Demon written above the Gateway arch logo. Most of all I love this plastic for the grip, durability, and stiffness. My question is, did you run Wizards in this blend and if so which?



what about my dream wizard?

Matt,
We have had over 1000 different runs of Wizards and possibly closer to 1500, ranging from 20 discs to around 2000.
because the geometry of the demon (rim and flight plate) is so much different than the Wizard, even if we used the exact some blends, the discs wouldn't look or feel the same.
1st of all the same mix that weighs 175 in the demon would only weigh 135 grams in the Wizard and also be twice as flexible.

After going back through some older prototypes Ive concluded that one of the reasons players prefered some of those first runs was the fact that the rims were fairly firm and the surface was really grainy ( due to non dried material) and the flight plate stayed pretty flexible.

I've went back and researched some of the formulas and may try to get in some similar materials in an attempt to reproduce those runs.
The key ingredients of the 1st few runs of wizards was a homo-polymer PP instead of the co-polymer PP that we use today and the fact that we were not drying the TPV back then either.
The main problem with trying to run hygroscopic materials without drying them is they can produce gas marks in the flight plate, which look a little like un-melted plastic, also the non dried materials look rough on the outer surface out by the rim. Some players here locally refer to these as FURRY.
In the past we had retail stores send discs like this back, stating that they looked like bad parts.

2 days ago we did a prototype style batch of Black Soft Warlocks that have that soft flex and chalky surface to them. The rims are not as firm as original proto wizards but the feel pretty close.
A prototype style batch is when we put together a formula that would make the putter weigh about 150 grams and we add dry weight filler to the mix to get the weight up to 170-175g which causes there to be white flecks in the plastic and a residue of powder that omits from the surface.
The mineral is a rare earth called???? ( guess the material first and post the answer on this thread to
win 2 free Proto-style warlocks)


While Players in the know appreciate these types of runs, others feel they dont look so hot for resale.
Besides it is very difficult to lock in on a specific weight as they jump from 170- 180 and back down again. This is because the mineral wants to separate from the polymer in the hopper.
We use a litle bit of mineral oil to try and get a more uniform dispersion, but there are always a high % of bad parts when doing this type of prototyping.

There were exactly 160 of these black "chalky proto-Style" Warlock's made and will be stamping them with the small Gateway prototype stamp. The flexibility of this run is soft and the grip is killer.

We have a really cool new Blue color for the putters and we will try and do a Proto-style run of Wizards at the end of next week, using the powder blue colorant to mask the white marks.

stay tuned:::!!!

cerium?
Thanks for the detailed information about your putter plastic formula. I am looking forward to trying some of the grainy texture wizards. My favorite putters have a relatively firm rim that resists twisting and warping but also plastic that is textured and soft in the flight plate. I like firm KC type putters but they tend to get slick and i have inconsistent grip with them. I also like how supersoft putters grip chains instead of slipping through them but if the rim is floppy it leads to inconistent release as well. So it sounds like you're on the right track to making some putters i will enjoy banging chains with.

I'm guessing Barite is the filler.

I'm guessing Barite is the filler.


Barytes is trade name for the mineral and both answers are pretty close, but neither is the right answer,,,,








Clue,,,,, check the periodic table of elements!!!!

Barium

****, should have checked on this thread one post sooner. I second, Barium.
Put me down for a couple blue proto wizards. I've got the warm and fuzzies just thinking about a fuzzy wizard.

:confused:Drat! :confused:

I knew this one too...I can't wait to get a hold of a couple of those Wizards. I've been throwing them for a while and trying to turn on anyone who would listen!

JK

Could it be

Lanthanum

Which is usually found with rare earths in monazite and bastnasite. :confused:

Just in case Dave is feeling particular... I will answer Barium Sulfate.

I do like those chalky wizards. It's like they self rosin.

I'm confused. Barytes is Barium Sulphate, also known as Barite.

Sulfur - I read it was used to cross-link natural rubber to make it viable for use as eraser material :confused: hehe

Is it beryllium?

After closer review of the exact definition:
It looks like Mike S is the winner!

Barium sulfate is what we use and is also known as Barite.
I didn't look closely at his spelling, but knew Barytes was a trade name for the product:

heres the definition:

Barium (pronounced /ˈbɛəriəm/) is a chemical element. It has the symbol Ba, and atomic number 56. Barium is a soft silvery metallic alkaline earth metal. It is never found in nature in its pure form due to its reactivity with air. Its oxide is historically known as baryta but it reacts with water and carbon dioxide and is not found as a mineral. The most common naturally occurring minerals are the very insoluble barium sulfate, BaSO4 (barite), and barium carbonate, BaCO3 (witherite). Benitoite is a rare gem containing barium.

Mike what weight did you want the 2 chalky warlocks?

Plutonium Wizards would really bang the chains....can you say glow disc!

Sweet - I didn't even provide an answer!
170 & 174 would be great!
;)

(mike stuart)

After closer review of the exact definition:
It looks like Mike S is the winner!

Barium sulfate is what we use and is also known as Barite.
I didn't look closely at his spelling, but knew Barytes was a trade name for the product:

heres the definition:

Barium (pronounced /ˈbɛəriəm/) is a chemical element. It has the symbol Ba, and atomic number 56. Barium is a soft silvery metallic alkaline earth metal. It is never found in nature in its pure form due to its reactivity with air. Its oxide is historically known as baryta but it reacts with water and carbon dioxide and is not found as a mineral. The most common naturally occurring minerals are the very insoluble barium sulfate, BaSO4 (barite), and barium carbonate, BaCO3 (witherite). Benitoite is a rare gem containing barium.

Mike what weight did you want the 2 chalky warlocks?



Sweet!! I'd like both of them at max weight. I'll PM you an address. Thanks a lot!!!

its funny you mention the Scream-Dt, as I just put one in my again bag last week.
I really like the way this disc stands up and just glides forever, if we can get some runs made in our E plastic we may try and get a few thousand ran and start marketing this disc again!



I just read that Gateway and Quest no longer have a partnership, so if that's true how are you able to run more Scream DT's because I thought it was solely a Quest disc? But I do agree that the disc glides forever, and I loved it as a roller until I lost it.

Dave - you mentioned the 160 chalky black proto Warlocks. How and when will they be available, please?

the chalky warlocks are available+, you can call the shop or have your favorite retail location call the shop.


Steve and I talk a few times a week!
We are both into growing the sport of disc golf as well as growing the exposure of our companies and our products.

While we may not have the same partnership we have had in the past we are still working together on a few different projects, including baskets, courses and new discs!

the chalky warlocks are available+, you can call the shop or have your favorite retail location call the shop.


Steve and I talk a few times a week!
We are both into growing the sport of disc golf as well as growing the exposure of our companies and our products.

While we may not have the same partnership we have had in the past we are still working together on a few different projects, including baskets, courses and new discs!



That's good to know. The way I heard the news it sounded like there was some bad blood, but I'm glad to know you 2 are still working together to improve the sport!

Hey dave,
We were discussing on another thread about some white "E" Elements With a black stamp on them.
this is the best run of Elements that i have recieved from you, Sweet flying disc. Is this an old run or are they a new run? you need to run some more just like it if you can. can you tell me anything about this run.

TK

Hey dave,
We were discussing on another thread about some white "E" Elements With a black stamp on them.
this is the best run of Elements that i have recieved from you, Sweet flying disc. Is this an old run or are they a new run? you need to run some more just like it if you can. can you tell me anything about this run.

TK



Me too :).

is the surface a little pearly or are they the more solid white ones?

what color marker was used and exact writing is on the bottom of the disc?

Dave,
they are solid white, Black Stamp, slightly domey, fairly stiff.

Black marker on bottom that reads, 180
E
EL

TK

The best run of Elements were the E element for the bolwing green red with a bud select or energy drink stamp...wow great disc...user misfire caused mine to be donated somewhere in OK....on the bright side it does have my # on it :p

Dave,

What are the hours for the Gateway ProShop? I will be in St. Louis next month and am hoping to play Barraks(if the weather will let me) and stop in to the shop.

Not sure what the hours are. If I can remember right they were from 10-5 M-F. It is a little hard to find, as you get close look for a small office building it is on the back left side of the building.

it is just off of the 18th fairway at barraks has discgolf stickers all over the door

Dave- I got the proto-style warlocks you sent. They feel great! Just like some early-run wizards that I've been putting with for a long time. Do you plan to run any wizards in this material??? Thanks a lot.

Hey Dave,

I just received this proto disc and it's really confusing me on what it is. Like I said, the stamp says Gateway Disc Sports Prototype, and on the on the bottom Hybrid is written on it, but the disc flies like a Sabre. Was there some sort of misprints on Sabre's or did proto Hyrbids fly like Sabres??

should be faster and more overstable. You might be throwing it wrong

Hey Dave,

I just received this proto disc and it's really confusing me on what it is. Like I said, the stamp says Gateway Disc Sports Prototype, and on the on the bottom Hybrid is written on it, but the disc flies like a Sabre. Was there some sort of misprints on Sabre's or did proto Hyrbids fly like Sabres??



I'd say the proto Hybrids fly more like Blazes than Sabres. Faster, but they were pretty beefy. The mold was retooled to make them less overstable.

should be faster and more overstable. You might be throwing it wrong



Throwing it with hyzer, and it still flips up like my Sabre.

hmmmm....... wish i could help you. whats wrong with your sabers?

hmmmm....... wish i could help you. whats wrong with your sabers?



Nothing wrong with them. I use Sabre's for more accuracy/controlled distance/tunnel shots, but use Hybrids for more controlled hyzer shots.

Maybe the disc is actually a Sabre and someone goofed up on it.

could be.

I doubt it is a miss stamp, I dont remember any Hybrids being missed stamped.
I'm guessing its white with a purple or black small stamp that says Gateway prototype, which were the 1st run of Hybrids after we retooled it making the nose smaller and flight plate thinner. they are a blend of S and H similar to the 8X KC roc feel. These were not that much different than an S Sabre.The Hybrid has a much thinner flight plate than the sabre and is a lot more gyroscopic, so JD, you must have a pretty good snap!
We haven't really worked that hard developing the hybrid or spent much money marketing it, as it was just too close to the Sabre for most players or the Blaze for others depending on their power and technique.

Once we build a new flatter wing I think the Hybird will be a much more popular disc!

On the Chalky Wizards:
We are just finishing up with the last of our latest putter runs and will run the regrind ( factory reject discs) using the dry weight filler for that chalky feel in the Wizard mold. Its looking like we will have about 400-500 of them.

It's green with silver stamp so I guess I must do have awesome snap. Compliments of Shawn Sinclair!!! :DGuess that's why my Sabre's are like Valkyries/Sidewinders when I throw full power. Go me!!! LOL!!!

Actually that particular plastic is the same as the run of milky white sabres that were popular.

I would check the wieght as it may be less than 170G

Actually that particular plastic is the same as the run of milky white sabres that were popular.

I would check the wieght as it may be less than 170G



The weight says 171. Could that be the mistake? Just a simple typo?

I keep holding this disc up to a Sabre and its too hard to tell the difference.

My Sabres also turnover quite fast if I put alot behind it. They are more for controlled drives and not max power. I have turned over my Blaze on occasion too when I put some stank on it.

My Sabres also turnover quite fast if I put alot behind it. They are more for controlled drives and not max power. I have turned over my Blaze on occasion too when I put some stank on it.



Its because you have form issues. I can throw my sabre 100% wothout it turning too much as long as I hyzer it.

My Sabres also turnover quite fast if I put alot behind it. They are more for controlled drives and not max power. I have turned over my Blaze on occasion too when I put some stank on it.





Its because you have form issues. I can throw my sabre 100% wothout it turning too much as long as I hyzer it.



+1 on this. I have some fairly beat in sabres that I can still throw almost 100% and have a predictable flight if I put a good angle on it.

I just started putting some more hybrids in my bag, loving the Hybrid-FX's I have. Don't know why I never caught on to these, they flip up great and go straight and long.

Other news... Hows it going Dave?
This winter is going to be long... I am looking forward to anything new you come out with next year Dave. I am graduating tomorrow and just got a job for a software company. I will get to travel internationally 75% of the year, hopefully that means getting in some golf in many locations.

congrats on graduating soon...
I need to get my butt back in college.. only have 1 more semester to finish my associates then i can finish my bachelors :)

Dave,
any plans on running minis? i'm not sure if you guys have any, but I make mini baskets and have a mini course at my house. I'm always looking for new minis. I wish someone would make one the size of the ultrastar mini.. they glide for days.

-Scott Lewis

congrats on graduating soon...
I need to get my butt back in college.. only have 1 more semester to finish my associates then i can finish my bachelors :)

Dave,
any plans on running minis? i'm not sure if you guys have any, but I make mini baskets and have a mini course at my house. I'm always looking for new minis. I wish someone would make one the size of the ultrastar mini.. they glide for days.

-Scott Lewis



I know that Dave has always talked about it, but there are ful size molds that probably have the priority.

If someone makes a putter softer than the Stupid-SS we will make them SSSSS (silly squishy super stupid soft) if we have to!!!



Looks like you might have to release your Silly Squishy Super Stupid Soft after all...

http://www.sunkingdiscs.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=1701

"Equal in flexibility to DGA Gumbputt plastic, this unique plastic is softer than anything available today including Gateway's Super Stupid Soft material."

I have never seen the woodchuck or any other golf disc from daredevil discs, but I have a hard time believing its that much MORE flexible than the the latest runs of SSS Wizards and Warlocks. If The King says its that flexible then it probably is, but with The woodchuck(?)only weighing 165-167 grams, It couldnt have that big of an impact on the game or our sales.
Even new players prefer 170g and up for their putters and most want 174-175g.

Actually that particular plastic is the same as the run of milky white sabres that were popular.

I would check the wieght as it may be less than 170G



The weight says 171. Could that be the mistake? Just a simple typo?

I keep holding this disc up to a Sabre and its too hard to tell the difference.


I guess without actually seeing this green disc I now cant say for sure.
The best way would be to hold it up to the light and if it gets a little lighter in color about 3/4" in from the rim towards the center of the flight plate, than its a Sabre.
This may be hard to tell, and may take a bright light.
There are some 150 class Hybrids that are green and I think a few got close to 170g, but only a few!
The Hybrids are MUCH thinner in the flight plate and look different right on the nose and for the 1st 1" towards the center from the nose, ( its less abrupt of an angle)

maybe someone can help me in this thread..
i have been playing almost a year and have thrown all innova. I am looking to give gateway a try so i was wondering what discs were most compatiable with my current bag.
current:
teerex (distance) 400+
teebird
firebird
roc
jk aviar-x

i know i want to try an illusion and wizards for sure.
any other suggestions would help.
thanks.

maybe someone can help me in this thread..
i have been playing almost a year and have thrown all innova. I am looking to give gateway a try so i was wondering what discs were most compatiable with my current bag.
current:
teerex (distance) 400+
teebird
firebird
roc
jk aviar-x

i know i want to try an illusion and wizards for sure.
any other suggestions would help.
thanks.



Blurr
Hybrid or Sabre FX
Blaze
Element-X
Wizard

Max distance, I and probably anyone else who throws Gateway, would recommend the Diablo DT. Fastest, farthest flying driver EVER!

I don't have a problem with form, I just have more snap than arm speed. I have huge rotation and can flip most discs from a hyzer snap. I have turned over the Demon a few times throwing in wind with hyzer. I don't believe I will be able to do that with the new Blast DT.

I don't have a problem with form, I just have more snap than arm speed. I have huge rotation and can flip most discs from a hyzer snap. I have turned over the Demon a few times throwing in wind with hyzer. I don't believe I will be able to do that with the new Blast DT.



Yeah that would be considered bad form dude.