how about some more sabres then? :)

Did it already just haven't ran it in anything but the lightweight/150 class stuff.
I seems to have accomplished making them less overstable, but we will see when we run them in our NEW Evolution.

We just started running our new EVO and have some totally clear Spirits and Speed demons and some translucent red/orange Elements.
this is the same material we used for the milky white Sabres a few years back,,,, grippy, flexible and REALLY durable.
We should start stamping them this week and sending them out!



Looks like Christmas came early this year. I'm gonna have to call the shop in the near future. :D

Dave,

I picked up a powder pink Wizard at a tournament this past weekend...it's S plastic but there isn't any firmness written on the back, just "844" and the weight (175g). I love the feel of this plastic...nice and chalky, kinda soft but slightly firm...but what do those numbers (844) mean?

i just got an element that was clear and very flat. it says it weighs 182 grams is that right? also is this supposed to be a very understable mid range? i also got a disc with an illusion stamp but on the bottom is says SD174 is this a speed demon? it has dimples on the rim, if that helps.

That would probably be a Speed Demon DT.

The old mold Element is a straight to understable flyer. And the E-Element does go up to around 182g.

i just got an element that was clear and very flat. it says it weighs 182 grams is that right? also is this supposed to be a very understable mid range? i also got a disc with an illusion stamp but on the bottom is says SD174 is this a speed demon? it has dimples on the rim, if that helps.





What you didn't believe me when I told you to get it?


That's the last time I help you. :p

I'm gettin some of those spirits!!!!

Mmmmmmm......I loved the Milky White Sabres!!! Been waiting for these plastics to fill the whole line of GDS discs.

Dave,

I picked up a powder pink Wizard at a tournament this past weekend...it's S plastic but there isn't any firmness written on the back, just "844" and the weight (175g). I love the feel of this plastic...nice and chalky, kinda soft but slightly firm...but what do those numbers (844) mean?



I asked David about it a long time ago and 844 was the name for a high end rubber with a flame retardent package that was meant for welding cables according him.

Throwing a fiery Wizard into the basket. My life would be complete.

i just got an element that was clear and very flat. it says it weighs 182 grams is that right? also is this supposed to be a very understable mid range? i also got a disc with an illusion stamp but on the bottom is says SD174 is this a speed demon? it has dimples on the rim, if that helps.





What you didn't believe me when I told you to get it?


That's the last time I help you. :p



LOL!!!! not that i didnt believe you but i went to the vet on sunday and it didnt fly like a speed demon! or what ive read about the flight of a speed demon!

but that was with 20-25 mph winds lol!!!!

that element is fliiiiiipppppy!!!!! how heavy do they come? that one was 182 gm.

I've got one at home that is 183g. That is the highest I have seen.

I've got one at home that is 183g. That is the highest I have seen.


The Elements are legal to 183.7 but we don't make many of them over 180 anymore!

I don't recall any missed stamped speed demons with an Illusion stamp, where did you get the disc?

Dave,

I picked up a powder pink Wizard at a tournament this past weekend...it's S plastic but there isn't any firmness written on the back, just "844" and the weight (175g). I love the feel of this plastic...nice and chalky, kinda soft but slightly firm...but what do those numbers (844) mean?



I asked David about it a long time ago and 844 was the name for a high end rubber with a flame retardent package that was meant for welding cables according him.



yes and they recently discontinued that material.
I have a line on about #7,000 lbs of it,,, I hope I can snag at least a few thousand lbs.


The recent run of hot pink Wizards were made with it and are really SWEET!!!!!!!!

Dave,

I picked up a powder pink Wizard at a tournament this past weekend...it's S plastic but there isn't any firmness written on the back, just "844" and the weight (175g). I love the feel of this plastic...nice and chalky, kinda soft but slightly firm...but what do those numbers (844) mean?



I asked David about it a long time ago and 844 was the name for a high end rubber with a flame retardent package that was meant for welding cables according him.



yes and they recently discontinued that material.
I have a line on about #7,000 lbs of it,,, I hope I can snag at least a few thousand lbs.


The recent run of hot pink Wizards were made with it and are really SWEET!!!!!!!!



I've been putting with mine every night this week, and I love the feel of it...if you manage to get the plastic, I'll definitely take some more 844 Wizards off your hands :D

I've got one at home that is 183g. That is the highest I have seen.


The Elements are legal to 183.7 but we don't make many of them over 180 anymore!

I don't recall any missed stamped speed demons with an Illusion stamp, where did you get the disc?



i got it at the BOB ROBERTSON MEMORIAL DYNAMIC DISC TOURNEY, this past weekend. that thing is seriously stable!!!! matt hall is the one that told me to get it! i was looking for something a little less stable than the spirit and he said it would be a great addition to my bag. i havent actually put it in my bag yet. it needs a little more field testing first before i trust it enough to put it in my bag. but from what i can tell it should fit nicely between my xcal and spirit.

And on another note thats 4 tourneys in a row that i have placed in top 4 in advanced. 3rd vpo 4th alex clark memorial tie 1st at piney woods and #1 at bob robertson. thanks gateway for the magic and spirit!!!!!!!!!!

i've seen older spirits and speed demons with illusion stamps. nothing recently. it was probably an older run.

so whats a more stable version of the element?

oh yeah wheres your factory in missouri? i am coming to worlds in 09 and i was wondering if i could come hand pick some sweet plasctics????????

St Louis..... I think its called Creve Core

St Louis..... I think its called Creve Core



...the other side of Missouri am sorry to say. 4+hrs on I-70 E from KC. (edit: make that 3.5 hrs! :D)

LOL

That is what I was going to say. Per Mapquest it is 250 miles.

Just up on our website for pre-order:

~Gateway Clear Evolution Element - Pre-Order & SAVE $2.00! (http://www.sunkingdiscs.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=2190)
~Gateway Clear Evolution Speed Demon (New Mold) - Pre-Order & SAVE $2.00! (http://www.sunkingdiscs.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=2188)
~Gateway Clear Evolution Spirit - Pre-Order & SAVE $2.00! (http://www.sunkingdiscs.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=1610)
~Gateway Clear Evolution Warrior (New Mold) - Pre-Oder & SAVE $2.00! (http://www.sunkingdiscs.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=2189)

We're only getting (50) total and we should have these in Friday or Monday and I'm not sure of the color selections yet so don't be fooled by the pictures, we just had to put something up...

Are the Clear Evo discs more stable than reg. E??

I'm only aware of the Sabres, but the Clear Evo ones were dead nuts straight. Probably the straightest E Sabre I've thrown. But I think a lot of their straightness had to do with the plastic.

Dave, is this Clear Evo going to be 100% urethane, or is it going to be a combination of plastics?

Hey Dave this Keith. ill be driving through St Loius Tomo Wed. If your there would love to stop by shop, and perhaps even go throw if your down in this weather.
Keith PDGA#21803 (from dallas) 682.551.2819

~Gateway Clear Evolution Speed Demon (New Mold) - Pre-Order & SAVE $2.00! (http://www.sunkingdiscs.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=2188)




Mike do you know what Gateway (well, David Mac) have done with the SD, what is the different to the old version?

The shop is located on Kingston Dr. in South St. Louis. From the north, take 270 south to the Telegraph Rd. exit and go north across the overpass. Telegraph turns into Kingston about 2.5 miles north or so. The shop is on the right side of the road at the back of the building on the left.

Plenty of Clear Evolution plastic available here at Dynamic Discs. Get the exact Clear Evolution disc that you are looking for here:

http://stores.ebay.com/Dynamic-Discs_Gat...Zkm?refid=store (http://stores.ebay.com/Dynamic-Discs_Gateway-Clear-Evolution_W0QQcolZ4QQdirZ1QQfsubZ598996017QQftidZ2 QQtZkm?refid=store)

If you would like any of these with a custom dye just send in a request and we'll get it in the works right away.

hey dave i saw a first run spirit in h plastic! what exactly is h plastic?

Hyertel, I think thats how you spell it. Its their old mid grade plastic. Think innova pro or Discraft X, but better

Yes the H is for Hytrel which is a co-polyester TPE used for the mid-grade lines and blending it with TPU for other high end polymer lines that are not clear.

We retooled the dimples off the Speed Demon making the wing LESS concave,,therefore LESS overstable, more gyroscopic and a little faster.
We also left some texture on the wing to reduce the drag, but it is not noticeable in the hand.
Right now we have the CLEAR E in the retooled Speed Demon but may experiment with some of the older E blends at some point.
The Spirit and Speed Demon are much closer now than before with the speed demons nose ( leading edge) being a little smaller. Combined this with the textured wing and less concave wing,,,,and it makes it fly faster and a little less over stable than the spirit.

We also retooled the top used for the BLURR, Blast and Rage to make them less overstable as well,,, but have not ran it in anything but the light weight "S" polymers. ( available at Marshal street)
We will be working the NEW CLEAR E into these models as well as the Sabre and Blaze soon!


Thanks to everyone for all the support this past year and we look forward to providing the players with cool new products in 2009.


BTW,,,,,
Players who are interested in our "MIXED BAG SPONSORSHIP" programs for 2009 should contact me by email for more information.

Thanks for the info dave! i cant wait to throw those new clear spirits and speed demons!!!!!!

Dave, I look forward to the blaze and sabre in the clear e plastic!!! Also is the new spirit now more overstable than the speed demon? Because for me the speed demon was the most overstable thing in my bag.

Dave, I look forward to the blaze and sabre in the clear e plastic!!! Also is the new spirit now more overstable than the speed demon? Because for me the speed demon was the most overstable thing in my bag.


I think the spirits are more overstable now!
today is the first day over 40 degrees in a few weeks so I will have some better testing conditions for all the new stuff!

Dave, Question about Organic plastic. How does it line up on your scale. Is it more durable of a putter, stiffer, grippyer...?
Is the organic a stronger blend, or will it beat up faster.

And I read your engineering about the Wizard, what are the comparison specs for the Voodoo. Meaning, Whats different about the Voodoo? The Voodoo feels beafier in my hand, i thought it would be more stable in head wind putting, but the wizard performed better in the wind putting.

And I read your engineering about the Wizard, what are the comparison specs for the Voodoo. Meaning, Whats different about the Voodoo? The Voodoo feels beafier in my hand, i thought it would be more stable in head wind putting, but the wizard performed better in the wind putting.


Yeah the Wizards still the best in windy conditions for most shots!
The differences between our putters is from the leading edge to the bead.
There is a blunter nose ( down from parting line) on the magic and 22 degree angle for 1/4".
45 degree angle for 3/8" and no bead on the Warlock.
large convex and small bead for the voodoo and slightly smaller convex and large bead for the Wizard.
The magic has 14 more cubic centimeters of mass on the nose than than the Wizard and Warlock and 10 more than the Voodoo. Basically the magic is the least overstable and most gyroscopic which is why it floats/glides more. Depending on your putting style one of the 4 models in one of the 4 flexes should be just perfect!!!
I am going to put together another document on our putters with pictures and diagrams that will spell out all the differences mentioned above in more detail.


Dave, Question about Organic plastic. How does it line up on your scale. Is it more durable of a putter, stiffer, grippyer...?

Is the organic a stronger blend, or will it beat up faster.

So far,, all of the runs of Organic ( OG ) have been prototype runs and we are still evaluating them.
We have made most runs in soft,,, a few super soft and recently ran more of a SOFT/Medium in the voodoo's.

As fas as I can tell from the protypes lying around the factory,,,, there's really no difference in the durability compared to other Wizards of the same flex and surface feel.,, some find the grainy feel of certain runs of the OG to have an ideal grip for putters, but in my opinion we have so many great feels of surface and flex that I would think it was just more of a personal preference.
All runs of the OG are made from a combination of post industrial TPV and the corn based polymer,,, just different combinations. The good thing about using the TPV as opposed to lesser quality materials, like olyfinic based TPE's and TPo's is that it does not loose its performance or degrade from being reprocessed more than once.
The corn polymer we use has a polypropylene base and is intended to be used in ad-specialty items.
Its very durable and strong but also very firm when molded by itself.
When combined with the recylced TPV ( thermo plastic vulcanized rubber) the rubber migrates to the surface, giving even the less flexible runs a nice grip and feel to the surface!!!

We are going to run some SS OG Wizards and magics on Monday to go with the medium OG Voodoos we just ran.

I hope this helps!!

any plans to make an overstable putter comparable to a rhyno? i like the warlock for open straight putts. i like the rhyno for hyzer putting.

So I had a pretty good day Yesterday to work out with the new E,,,it was 60 degrees kind of windy but no sunshine at all..
The Red translucent Elements were $$$$!!!!
They are slightly overstable and longer gliding than just about any mid-range I know of. ( think glide of a comet better at lower heights)

The E spirits were nowhere near as overstable as I had thought and seemed to fly like a broken in spirit to me,,, which was really nice. The one we were throwing was 172 grams!

now the E warriors,,,,, while looking quite nice and clearer than ICE were VERY overstable, probably as much as a demon.
I threw about 10 drives with it on the course and just couldnt get it to glide very long without Hyzering out,,,,
SO,,,, after the round I took it and threw it 5 times straight into the bathroom wall at Endicott, it didnt have a mark on it and appeared to not be phased in the least cosmetically, so I threw it another 10 times, this time right where the wall met the ground, hoping to make at least a scuff on the disc and bend the nose down some,,, NO LUCK,hardly a scratch, dent or scrape and certainly no creases.
I then threw it again across the field and WALLAH!!!!,,, dead straight 300' with no turn or fade.
Just to make sure it wasnt a fluke throw,,, I threw it another 5 times back and forth across the field into and with the wind and it was dead straight only fading slightly down wind.
I know this isn't the best way to offer a new disc,,, " hey buy this disc and if you want it to fly straight just throw it into a wall about 20 times.
The thing is,, I'm pretty sure that it is NEVER going to change flight characteristics from here on out. I threw it 15 times as hard as I could into a wall and it didnt even show signs of any damage,, I could probably still sell it as brand new.
For me they are a little too flexible and flat as I like a little firmness as well as a little dome.
I would call these our winter grade of NEW CLEAR E, while not as flexible as FLX they are just as grippy.
I would say they are a little more flexible than the softer run of yellow/green CE rocs from 2001 and just as durable!!!

we are probably going to wait for some feedback from our sponsored players before running anymore, but my gut feeling is we are probably still going to need a mid-range between the warrior and Element and may produce one fairly quickly before the season gets under way!

Dave, I agree that there should be a mid between the warrior and the element.

Also, have you given any thought to the surface technology being applied in the midrange area? Or is that just something that works well on driver molds?

David, will you be offering any Ice Bowl specials this year like you did with the Wizards??

we are probably going to wait for some feedback from our sponsored players before running anymore, but my gut feeling is we are probably still going to need a mid-range between the warrior and Element and may produce one fairly quickly before the season gets under way!



Would this potential new middie be debuted for BG Ams this yr. or are you going to try and get a driver or putter out there to debut instead??

David, will you be offering any Ice Bowl specials this year like you did with the Wizards??


Yes,,, YES we have 8 discs on the Ice Bowl order form.
http://www.icebowlhq.com/ is the website,,, everyone should run an Ice bowl,,, and get some Gateway discs! :D
Its not too late contact Rick through the website above!

On the Ice bowl order form we have 5 different putters, the E assassin, and a flexible version of the "S" in the Element and Warrior!
The hot stamp looks sweet on the discs!!

These Softer S Warriors as well as the regular S Warriors are only Slightly overstable compared to the E Wariors,,, but the Elements in S are not so different than the E Elements in stability when new,, they just get broken in easier.
Ive had a regular S Element in my Bag since October and played about 30 rounds with it and its slowly breaking in to become a nice hyzer flip mid-range!

Not sure what discs we will make available for BG, getting the SS Magic in the players packs last year proved to REALLY help kick start that disc!!! ( we sold just about as many Magics in 08 as Wizards, a little over 10,000 of each)
If it were Today I would say S Warrior as this discs would be great for all ranges of player right out of the box.
Hopefully one of the new drivers in the NEW E will be a big hit and we can use one of them, but cant commit until we are actually producing the discs. Hopefully we will be running some prototypes in mid- January!

Right now I'm thinking about a new name for a mid-Range between the Element and Warrior and could use some advice,,, would recycling the old Name Scout work?
Is it COOL enough??
We may recycle the other 2 names as well one day ( I always liked the names Apache & Chief).
Since we discontinued these names over 4 years ago would it be a good or bad idea to use them for NEW discs?

APEX!

Or the Buffalo :D

I agree with Matt, APEX is awesome, and wasnt it the old name given to the Assassin before its current name?

But there is nothing wrong with using the old Chief and Apache names. Helps make your midrange linuep seem like it's all part of some middie family

Name it the Razor. Instant marketing gimmick...

"Shave strokes off your score with the Gateway Razor"... :D:D:D

Are there going to be any assassins ran in the clear E and how does the newest retool of the speed demon compare to the older runs and spirits?

Scud

Coast

Gladiator

Circuit

Trend

Jolt

Or the NL Edition FREAK

Name it the Razor. Instant marketing gimmick...

"Shave strokes off your score with the Gateway Razor"... :D:D:D



"And put it in the basket with the Gateway Gillette!"

Anyways, I guess I can try to toss in a few names...

Spear
Slam
Bolt
Rapid Fire
Ranger
Sharpshooter
Jam (or Jammin')

That's all I can think of for now. Oh, and is there any update on the possible Voodoo artwork contest??

Dave, these gummy Evo elements. Are they re-tooled elements?
They are money, They stay in the air way longer than i thought a flat top mid range would, or could. They stay in the air longer than a buzzz, and yet i can throw them lower ceiling for longer than my kc rocs. Wow these are jammmin. The evo Elelement is very controllable and stays in the air, and goes where i throw it. I parked a 350 ft all annyhyzer hole, then i parked the next hole, a low ceiling straight shot ending in hyzer ...the element threw both lines sweet. I could anny my kc roc, but never parked the low ceiling hyzer with my Roc, that fact that i did both holes with the Element, Wow....

And on the ASSASIN , im still learning. It feels beefy and i thought it would be stable like a teebird with better glide. Its more like a TL, i threw a great shot with a tail wind, about 400ft low low hyzer the whole way, stayed in the air longer than my Boss. But, i dont like the TL aspects, it flips when theres wind, i would prob replace my teebird if the assasin had more stability...but im going to see if it will work as a control Anny disc for me, it seems to have loonng glide so it might come in handy as a controllable long anny.

Furthermore, sorry guys if im long winded, but im excited about these new disc.
The new E-Spirit 175gm is crazy overstable. Its more overstable than my Ch XC, until now; nothing was more overstable than that.
I threw a 200 ft hyzer shot that if you want to park the hole your Hyzer almost has to skip back wards.. like a candy cane that you took 1 bite off of. .... most shots, Max,Firebird, Pred... skip long in the bushes and you have a 40 ft putt out of the bushes.
The spirit hit the ground where all the other drivers hit but took 2 big skips, skipping backwards......parking the whole. First time to do this. unless the head wind is flipping every thing in your bag or you need a triple skipper around the corner, the spirit im throwing is crazy overstable.

Dave, I agree that there should be a mid between the warrior and the element.

Also, have you given any thought to the surface technology being applied in the midrange area? Or is that just something that works well on driver molds?



A midrange like Discraft's Storm would be a perfect compliment. IDK if you have thrown that disc, but what's great about it is that it's dead straight, but also quite turnover resistant even when thrown hard. At least from my experience.

I have some names for new drivers too: GUN, GAT, Warpdrive, Lightspeed, Galaxy, Burn, Plasma, Freak, and The Frag!

The best part about sticking with the old names such as Apache, Scout, and Chief (other than the fact they are cool names) is that, according to questionable, seemingly absurd PDGA spec. regulations, you would NOT have to submit these ENTIRELY NEW molds for approval. Right?

The artwork on those "cowboys and indians" discs was cool, as well. Thanks for making more great discs, David.

I also like the apache scout and chief. but i already have a scout (superstable). but what about the whole EARTH WIND AND FIRE CONCEPT. the EARTH could be the ELEMENT and the FIRE could be the DEMON and now we need the WIND...what about CHINOOK or GUST also a KAMIKAZE is a japanese word translating to DIVINE WIND, believed to be a gift from god.

This could continue your stylistic names in your different discs. IE: putters are mystical :MAGICS WIZARDS VOODOO AND WARLOCKS.

your drivers are paranormal : spirits illisions blurrs blazes speed demons

and your mids could be like the trifecta of earth wind and fire!
elements demons and kamikaze's

I was lucky enough to receive the bag for Christmas and I was able to get out on New Year's Eve for my last round of the year and the bag felt GREAT on my back! There is tons of space in the bag. I really liked how 2 of the water bottle slots have zippered tops on them so that you can convert those to carrying something else. The side pockets are quite large so you can put discs, rain gear, etc in them.

I also like the apache scout and chief. but i already have a scout (superstable). but what about the whole EARTH WIND AND FIRE CONCEPT. the EARTH could be the ELEMENT and the FIRE could be the DEMON and now we need the WIND...what about CHINOOK or GUST also a KAMIKAZE is a japanese word translating to DIVINE WIND, believed to be a gift from god.

This could continue your stylistic names in your different discs. IE: putters are mystical :MAGICS WIZARDS VOODOO AND WARLOCKS.

your drivers are paranormal : spirits illisions blurrs blazes speed demons

and your mids could be like the trifecta of earth wind and fire!
elements demons and kamikaze's



I think that renaming discs and reusing disc names creates market confusion. Best off with brand new names...

But few people out there remember the old Apache, Scout and Chief names.

I do...and still have a few of each at home. I might have to bust out an apache again one of these days.

Hey Dave-
do you throw the magic? i just got 5 softs, but they feel closer to medium. they are black protos. I am a month out of shoulder surgery, so it will be a little while until i can try them. what was your intent with this disc and how does it fly. I am used to throwing aeros and cros for short shots and putts.
thanks

how does it fly



I'm not Dave, but I think it flies similar to that of the Swirl APX.

Any chance of making the clear E Spirits any stiffer? Its so darn gummy

So,
any word on who? are the mix-bag sponor golfers for 2009?

Question: Dave your making Quest Disc right?
So are they considered gateway, or??

Question: Dave your making Quest Disc right?
So are they considered gateway, or??


Actually Quest molds their own discs in Chicago.
I made over 10 trips to his factories working with Steve on some mold designs and polymer development for his discs and helped market the products to players inside the game.
We used the Gateway and Gateway/Quest names on the first runs of discs and I think the joint name is still on a few of the models.
Gateway sponsored players were able to throw Quest discs over the last few years and of course with the mixed bag sponsorships players can throw discs from all companies.

The relationship with Quest is a VERY POSITIVE and EYE OPENING experience that has brought a lot of exposure to Gateway. My Ideas for over-molded 2 part discs for disc golf, Dimples on discs and surface technology were brought to life because of Steve and I feel we have only scratched the surface of what can be developed.
I do have a few regrets about giving away some of the names we had reserved like Scream and Odyssey, but all in all things are working out well and as expected.

So,
any word on who? are the mix-bag sponsored golfers for 2009?


We are sending out discs to potential candidates for the next few months.
Official sponsorships may take several months depending on the repoire developed!
We are really looking for extensions of our marketing, advertising, and promotions that help us establish more sales accounts.
This is a big part of the mixed bag sponsorship qualification!

So you want mix bag sponsors to sell consignment for you??

Is the mixed bag sponsorship only reserved for 950+ rated players or can us lowly Intermediate's apply as well??

We are really looking for extensions of our marketing, advertising, and promotions that help us establish more sales accounts.
This is a big part of the mixed bag sponsorship qualification!


so it's really more of a mixed bag salesman position... but instead of money, you get paid in factory second discs.

So you want mix bag sponsors to sell consignment for you??


Not necessarily direct sales but certainly networking and leads for developing new accounts.

SO like the fact that I have rep'd Gateway and given three disc away already to guys that it was their first Gateway Disc?? Like that?
Ive been parking long holes with this new re-tooled E-element and guys are wigging on me that im throwing this way...way past their drivers....

Not to necessarly speak for David, but I think getting leads for new accounts would mean going into, say for example, an independent outdoors store who may only sell Innova. You would show the owner of the store the wholesale prices that Gateway discs would offer over Innova, and that if the Gateway discs arent selling then David will buy them back.

You would give David the store contact info to finalize the deal to sell Gateway discs in the store, and thus you gave him a lead and helped develop a new account.

Well thats hard with DG cause not many stores exist.....Play it Again here in Texas.. already sales Gateway.

Pat,,

as I've mentioned
The sponsorships are not direct sales, but certainly extensions of our marketing, advertising and promoting outside of just playing in events.
Sponsored players who want to sell discs wholesale or retail can do so. Those who are involved in indirect sales may be eligible for commission if they chose to take that route.
This is an opportunity for those interested in Gateway and unlike sponsorships from other companies we are trying things a little different.
Of course we are looking for good players but mostly we are looking for good people to be a part of our company. Raising awareness about our products AND the sport of disc golf outside of organized competitive golf is part of the equation!


We have a very small budget for marketing and as far as I can tell players are happy to help us with marketing advertising and promotions in exchange for products, gear and affiliation with our company.
As i have stated time and again,,we have many levels of sponsorship opportunity.
If all a player wants to do is Kick arse with the discs, i'm sure we have a program for him!!
I really don't see the reason for such a negative comment.
you can rest assured the players chosen will be eligible for a lot more perks than just a box of discs, especially if the relationships are strong with good communication.

If players interested in seeking a mixed bag sponsorship with Gateway are not interested in helping us grow our companies awarenesses outside of their competitions than most likely the mixed bag or putter sponsorship is not for them.


Word of mouth is great and turning you buds or co workers on to disc golf for their first time works well ( every little bit helps), but NOTHING grows disc golf like the pure availability of products in stores year in and year out, especially a wide range of store types.

Theres almost never enough stores in an area to sell discs:
Here in St Louis we have 25 courses, well over 40 stores that sell discs, 40 plus tourneys a year, a league night or 2 just about every night of the week and weekend leagues as well.
we have over 300 club members and are expecting 240 at this years A tier.
Most of this growth is tied to the fact that the stores have been selling discs year in and year out for a long time and the exposure of the products in the stores alone gets new players out to the courses every week.
These new players help Our club keep growing and I'm confident Its all tied together.
I feel every course should have about 3 or 4 stores.
a sporting goods, convenience store, maybe a mom and pop hardware store or specialty shop.
we also have several park departments that sell discs.
I for one rarely go to convenience stores, but i'm always in hardware stores.
people go to sporting good stores for other sporting goods and find golf discs.
the specialty shops like kraft stores, head shops, boutiques
also do really well.
as far as I'm concerned we still need 10 -12 more stores and it wont be that difficult setting them up as we have put in 6 new courses that don't even have a store selling discs yet within 10 miles of any of them.
its extremely difficult to saturate a disc golf market in a city like ours as there is still 90% of the 3 million people in this city who have no idea what disc golf is.

This opportunity may not be for everyone, but the feedback I'm getting has been much greater than expected and Ive had nothing but positive conversations about the mixed bag sponsorships so far.

Sweet Dave,
all good ideas, i can think of about 10 stores that have potential, PM me or email me Dave and tell your plan? Meaning price for the store and how you want me to pitch them buying disc for retail! I can think of stores and gas stations that would carry you especially if you are under-biding larger manufacturers up front.! Which Im sure you have a better deal anyways.

I should clarify, not all or our latest runs of clear/translucent discs are totally clear, some are translucent.
Most of the molds with this new polymer seem to run a little better with a small amount of colorant added making them more of a translucent. Its still the same material with a tint of color.

The new E is very ghrippy and Great for cold winter days, but maybe not so good for the summer.

This particular GUMMY E was intended for the Sabres and Blazes which have much thicker flight plates making them a lot less flexible. ( should be running these this week)

we still have a few other Clear E polymers to try that should wind up better suited for the high speed drivers/ mid-ranges and give us a wider range of weights.

We now have CLEAR and Translucent Magics and Wizards,,, mostly 160-170,,, very few up to weight,, but they really feel nice and GUMMY in cold weather.
Most likely these totally clear discs and future runs are going to cost a buck or 3 more than opaque and translucent.
Theres a big reason totally clear discs are not mass produced and are usually used for CFR's.
We need to polish up our molds a little better, as the totally clear stuff really shows off any imperfections on the surface of the molds and there for shows up on the discs.


Also,,,
The dye is really working well on the NEW E and doesn't seem to be fading or bleeding the least bit.

How will the Clear E affect the stability of the Sabre and Blaze??

It would be cool to see some stamped with the big old gateway arch, like on the prototype wizards, or maybe the old small wizard guy that didn't say "Wizard" underneath it.

where can i find the new translucent or clear gummy wizards? the supersoft wizard that came in today feels really good. i also got two s voodoo's. is the flight of the voodoo stable to slightly overstable? thanks

The Clear ones can be found at SunKingDiscs.com

is the flight of the voodoo stable to slightly overstable? thanks



I would say that the Voodoo when thrown for short range drives and approaches would be considered straight with maybe a very slight fade to it. If you are putting with it, I would say it is straight with a slight overstability.

Putting under 30ft it is def. overstable. I was playing the other day and I had about a 25 footer, and so I putted but apparently I didnt put enough on it, and by the time it got to the basket it faded hard left.

has any one thrown the new gummy spirit yet???

Yeah. Way too gummy, even in 20-30 degree weather. It flips to flat real fast and looks like it wants to turn, but it just hyzers hard and fast with no skip.

Yeah. Way too gummy, even in 20-30 degree weather. It flips to flat real fast and looks like it wants to turn, but it just hyzers hard and fast with no skip.


Dave, which one's do you have? I have a semi-translucent light blue one and a crystal clear one and they are beeeeeefy.

On a side note, I am digging the redesigned Speed Demon.

I agree with Joe, the light blue one I have is beef. Out of box super beef spirit in about 20 degree weather. The semi-clear elements are huge, they are great and definately add D to the midrange game

Is there any noticeable stability differences between the reg. E Elements and the CE Elements?

Is there any noticeable stability differences between the reg. E Elements and the CE Elements?



I think so. I think the Gummy/Clear are more high speed under stable. I tested one today, I brought a guy with me who is only a year into the game. He uses leopards for his main disc. He maxes out at about 300 ft. After I threw a few throws I realized that this disc would be perfect mid for less powerful throwers. He had great success instantly with this disc! I can see as his game gets stronger he will out grow it over the next year but for now its working great.

All of that to say that the disc is an awesome Anhyzer disc, and a great intermediate mid range driver!

where can i find the new translucent or clear gummy wizards? the supersoft wizard that came in today feels really good. i also got two s voodoo's. is the flight of the voodoo stable to slightly overstable? thanks



Did you mean to say wizards? Did they make clear/translucent wizards? I just looked on Sunking they weren't there.

If they haven't been made are they in the works? Dave?

We now have CLEAR and Translucent Magics and Wizards,,, mostly 160-170,,, very few up to weight,, but they really feel nice and GUMMY in cold weather.
Most likely these totally clear discs and future runs are going to cost a buck or 3 more than opaque and translucent.
Theres a big reason totally clear discs are not mass produced and are usually used for CFR's.
We need to polish up our molds a little better, as the totally clear stuff really shows off any imperfections on the surface of the molds and there for shows up on the discs.





Here ya go from the horse's mouth...

Well fine. Where do I gets em?

Call the shop and and place and order :) its that easy!

Clear Evolution Wizards, Magics, and Voodoos available at Dynamic Discs. Custom dyes will be getting listed shortly as well. This is the best plastic to date that David has produced. Super durable and just the right amount of grip; not too hard-not too soft. These are just what we have been waiting for!

http://stores.shop.ebay.com/Dynamic-Disc...Q_sidZ189230667 (http://stores.shop.ebay.com/Dynamic-Discs__clear-evolution_W0QQ_nkwZclearQ20evolutionQ20QQ_cqrZtrue QQ_nkwuscZclearQQ_nkwuscZevolutinoQQ_sidZ189230667 )

How come the Warlocks weren't molded in the Clear E? How are the Sabres flying?

Looks like they're becoming the adopted redheaded stepchild.

Looks like they're becoming the adopted redheaded stepchild.


Yeah it does appear that the Warlock often gets neglected.
Its not really intentional I guess the Wizard, Magic and Voodoo are just a lot more in demand.
We'll have warlocks in Clear E one day soon!!

The first runs of the new E seems to be working really well, but its a little too light for the Wizard and Warlock which have the exact same mass (132 cubic CM).

The flight is money and the flex and weight are perfect for the Sabre, Magic and voodoo. I'm sure it will make some really nice overstable Blazes.
My opinion is its a little too flexible for the other discs, but we would love to hear some feed back from those who have them and are throwing them.

We are going to sample a little heavier material for the Wizard, Warlock soon as well as a little lighter and stiffer material for the Element and Warrior.

Oh yeah,,,,,
We also have the midrange between the Element and Warrior that should be done this week and the 3 new assassin style driver molds ( with a slightly longer wing) that are about 80% complete. We hope to release a new disc in each of the first 4 months of the year.

Lots of cool new stuff going on with the products.

Our mixed bag sponsorship applications and bonus structures are available and we will be sending out the first wave of discs starting this week.

THANKS FOR ALL THE SUPPORT!!!! (and the patience)

:cool::cool:

Here ya go kids...these came in last Friday

~Gateway Clear Evolution Magic (http://www.sunkingdiscs.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=2233)
~Gateway Clear Evolution Sabre (http://www.sunkingdiscs.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=2235)
~Gateway Clear Evolution Voodoo (http://www.sunkingdiscs.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=2236)
~Gateway Clear Evolution Wizard (http://www.sunkingdiscs.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=2234)

DaveMac ... Gateway should have some patches made this winter that look like the new stamp! Just make the gateway swoosh and name bigger filling the circle. I'll take a few!

Hope you haven't forgotten to set aside some RED gateway discs for me.

Here is my thoughs on the clear evo:

the spirits are nice. Pretty flexy, I like the spirits in the clear flex, however think that is probably the only driver that I would like in this plastic. The others would have to be a little more firm..

the clear evo elements are $$$$. great for distance mid for beginners and is definately an addition to anyones bag looking for a turn over mid.

the clear warriors are way beef. I think they fly a little to beefy for my likings but are just like every other warrior run great!!! The warrior has become a staple in my bag.

I think that the blaze ran in this plastic would be great!!!! It would run some really good felling, beefy blazes.

Keep up the good work Dave!!!

Threw the Blaze today in the new E Plastic and really liked the resistance to turn and the glide it had when thrown hard. It had a predictable amount of fade and doest skip so much in this plastic. Several spike Hyzers I threw just seemed to stop on a dime.
The blaze is very controllable especially for a player with a lot of power. It can handle all you got and then some without worrying about it flipping over.
Its a disc that is HIGHLY under-rated. Those who use the blaze for longer mid-range shots in windy conditions know exactly what I'm talking about.
You never throw a blaze and say " WOW did you see what the wind did to that"!
Ive never been a big fan of the HIGH end plastic for mid-range and control drivers but this new stuff seems to have just the right amount of grip and the thicker flight plates in the Sabre and Blaze make it a little firmer than the putters, mid-ranges and high speed drivers.

It Ok in the putters for putting and shorter layups, but I would still recommend the regular S for shots that are thrown hard.

We have some similar material coming in that should mold up a little less flexible for the high speed drivers.

I am lookin for older wizards... the ones with the wizard stamp that has the word wizard in the cape... pm me if any one has any they want to trade for...

TJ,
what flexibility were you looking for in the older runs?

In reference to Dave's comment about the Blaze being underrated, I couldn't agree more. Whenever I'm playing with people who aren't familiar with Gateway products or don't know my bag, they always ask "what was that???" after I throw it into the wind or something like that. Such a handy frisbee!

Dave, I'm lovin the Warrior. I've only got that one you gave me in Louisville. I've been meaning to contact you and get a couple more. Looks like there are some interesting things going on at Gateway (as usual).

looking for the S runs of those older wiz with the word wizard in the cape, but would take any of the flexibilities....

Dave,
When do you expect the clear evolution blaze to hit the shelves? Also, is there a certain color of your e plastic hat tends to be more stable than others?

Thanks,
Jordan

I would say that the Blaze should be out now since I have some on their way to Michigan.

I got a red translucent Element the other day and I think it will be the disc I was looking for to fill the Stingray type spot. I didn't quite get it to flip all the way over but it definately turned over for me. The clear and the plain evo plastic acted pretty similar to me so that was good to see.

I also played a round with the clear evo wizard and I'm not sold on it yet. It has close to the same softness as my beat SSS wizard but with a slicker grip. It was only about 20 degrees out side when I played so more testing is needed. Especially since it has the flight of a new wizard and all my putts were hyzering out faster and that was ticking me off. Probably not the most accurate review of what the disc will be capable of. I'm thinking upshots and short drives off the tee right now and still using my SSS for putts.

Good stuff as always Dave. Looking forward to trying the "new" new clear as well. Maybe a stiff clear Diablo?

I've been transitioning to an all gateway bag just for kicks. I'm loving the retooled Element and Warrior combo. Have been money inside 300' with those two plus the good ol' Wizard. It's been a task trying to replace the rest of the bag and I'm almost there. The only disc I don't have a replacement for is my beat up dx Valk. Can any of you gateway guys give me an idea where to go? What gateway disc can you use for the long turnover, understable driver slot?

Thanks for your help.
btw, I've recently discovered the beauty of the blaze. Great disc.

I read on Gateway's website that Matt Hall likes to use the sabre for this shot!

A Beat Sabre or just throw an Assassin.

I'd go Inferno

I am waiting for the snow to melt so I can once again go out and throw Gateway discs all over the back yard. It will be interesting to try out the new stuff. I am sure there will be several more new ones before it warms up.

One of my goals this year is to get my bag down to 8 discs instead of 14. The idea behind that goal is that it will cut down on second guessing myself.

The Gateway backpack is still holding up great after several years.

as far as for turnover shoots I throw a beat up element for everything 300' and under. For long turnover I throw a beat assassin... the inferno is just not as reliablefor the long turnover for me as I have to take a lot off so it doesn't flip all the way over

the very used assassin I have is very predictable and will stay turned the whole way good for 400 turnovers.... depending on the sabre that would also be a good choice as well just not as long as the assassin in my opinion

or you could just learn the flick shoot and go with a spirit

Dave,
When do you expect the clear evolution blaze to hit the shelves?

Also, is there a certain color of your e plastic hat tends to be more stable than others?

Thanks,
Jordan



We have the New E blazes stamped and ready to go.
aA far as I can tell there is no difference in stability based on color of the NEW E.
There are some runs of Elements and Sabres that have a little stiffer E in them that takes away from how flat the discs mold up (elements are red and there are 2 runs of Sabres, a clear Orange and opaque red). These runs are a little less stable, but its because of the polymer not the color.

the assasin is a great turnover disc, i've also used a beat illusion to.

TK

Dave,

When are you going to mold some Voodoos in some of that rubbery S plastic that is super abrasion-resistant? I throw Wizards and Warlocks in that plastic and I love the way it feels and flies off the tee. I putt with the Voodoo and I'm waiting to try one in my favorite plastic.

I am in agreement with discpeed. The rubbery SuperSoft Warlock I have is the best feeling putter ever!

we ran some SSS and Ss Voodoo's this week.
one of them should give you the feel and grip your looking for!

I was looking for a warrior and came across a "pop top" e warrior. What is the difference between this and a regular e warrior?

thanks

The poppy tops are more stable.

I have some flat top yellow ones that are pretty stable at high speed, they are S plastic, i love em

TK

I was looking for a warrior and came across a "pop top" e warrior. What is the difference between this and a regular e warrior?
thanks


There is a bit of Hytrel in the mix(one of the the materials used for pro-line) which makes plastic shrink a little more than straight TPU and therefore dome more.
They are not as overstable as the CE warriors and will probably get broken in a lot quicker.

i got a evo sabre this weekend at a little tournament. it is really flexible, and the blurr was stiff. are there other drivers that have the hi-flex? i also got a clear evo wizard that gummy, which i like. will voodoo's come in that gummy material?

yes we have voodoo's in the NEW Evolution (HPP)

the Sabre was new the Blurr was probably from an old run, we haven't ran the Blurrs and rages yet in the new stuff.

Really looking forward to getting some of the new E plastic and putting it to work. I'm also looking forward to some of the new molds to come this Spring!!

Thanks Dave!!

Hey Dave

I was just wondering if you are going to run medium/firm (8-9 gateway softness scale) Wizards at 165g anytime soon. These seem impossible to find anywhere.

I need some more bad, since a car drove over one of the two I have in that weight. So Im down to one last one.

Dave, Thanks
Cant wait to chunk this sweet stuff.
Will get back to you and let you know Thoughts.....
Dude your Dry Wick shirt rocks....

Dave, Is a rage an assasin with a bead?
If not , If you put a Bead (overstability) on an assasin! it will be my new found hero and replace my Teebird.
Either way I want a rage / or / an assasin with a bead

I got to throw my clear e warrior in tourney over the weekend and I wish I would have thrown it more. The disc really cut through the wind. I was using it for a lot of my upshots and any drives 325 or less into the wind. It really held its line well. I put it on an anhyzer edge and still ended up hyzer out, which is exactly what I wanted it to do.

I also through the clear e speed demon, but only got two throws in with it. One was a thumber and it got out of my hand pretty fast, but it stuck pretty well and didn't flutter out. The rim may be a little bit too big for fingers, but for shots that need to finish hard to the left, it will be perfect. Once it is broken in, it will be a sweet driver.


I got my new discs yesterday and I was so pumped to get them. Big thanks to Dave for them!!! The stash minis are awesome. Although it was drizzling and super windy, I had to get out to throw some of these discs. I took out the s and e illusion, ce spirit, and ce blaze for some test driving.

The e illusion was fun to bomb with and was a tad bit understable. I couldn't roll it very far in the wind, but it turned over well. I can't wait for a calm dry day. The somewhat chalky feel of disc was still grippy in the rain. The baby blue illusion was very domey and allowed me to get some serious d. I would liken it to a new star wraith or beat star destroyer. I also found my other baby blue one that I left in the field on Friday :D

I also gave the ce blaze a lot of work. It's going to be a money spike hyzer disc. I tried flipping it in the wind, but really had not luck doing so. It would start to flip, but what always hyzer out. This is going to be a great thumber discs for 300 and in. It almost felt like a whippet-x, but I liked the feel of the blaze a lot more.

The disc I was most impressed with was the ce spirit. The disc was this orangeish yellow all over except for the inside of the rim, which was yellow. Very cool looking. The disc was a lot more flat than the other spirit I own. The other spirit was domey and lot more flippy. The ce spirit was so money. I threw it through headwinds and cross winds with a very predictable flight pattern. I could not get this thing to turnover as hard is tried. I can't wait to get a few more and work them in. The ce spirits in my bag will be relied on for many differnt shots.

I really like the assassin, but I agree with hollywood, it would be cool to see a bead added to a disc just like it. Are there plans to create assassins in the ce plastic?

Keep up the good work Dave!

If you want to try a stable Assassin you need to get your hands on the S Assassins. I threw one over the wknd. and they are straight! The flat top compared to the E's makes this the disc I was personally wanting the Assassin to be.

Thanks Dave,
The E gummy Warrior Rocks. It holds a line great and is consistant into wind. Ican trust this disc to get to the basket with ir with out wind. Also doing great things off the tee.
All the warriors are working great for me. The S seem to be a good roc type disc, but I need some more practice with it. The E (pink) chalky ones are �money�, they are stable, but Roc like with good glide and stable enough to take a lot of torque. They are overstable but seem to be ablt to break in nice for a striat stble flyer. Good disc.
I probably will like the Stiff E warrior and gummy CE warrior combo.
I would love a stiff Evo Demon for my up shot hyzer�s and skipper�s. The S is nice but Ill need the disc to stay way overstable.
I like the CE spirit and speed demon, but until some beat in time these are so overstable wow�
The gummy CE elements are the only one I like of the Element, they are predictable for the anny line. Control and anny line every time for me, sweet. Its like a shorter CE Leapord, great disc.
The saber and the blaze seem like they will work themselves into my bag for good control game, but I would like to get my hands on some stiff Evo, the gummy evo seems to lose torque from my snap and does not like direct head wind�
And of course the Soft Wizards are pimp, helping my putting game.
And the Gummy CE wizard, nice good (JK Aviar) feel but more durable, good for drives and sidearm shots, sweet.
Way to Go Dave, this stuff rocks.

Got my box yesterday!! Thanks Dave!!

I did not get out to throw them yesterday due to the high wind advisory (50-60mph). But...I did get a chance to toss them around in the field after lunch. It is still rather windy, but I could not wait any longer.

I threw them into a headwind of 20-15 mph. I threw them all flat unless I knew they would dump in which case I threw with a hyzer release. They SS wizard flew nice with a little turn and a fairly straight finish. The E Wizard did about the same but a little stronger left finish. I threw the Magic with a little hyzer and it flipped up flat with a long slow right turn. Can't wait to get it beat up for that automatic right turn. I love that shot. The Warlock did about the same, but finished a hair left at the end. My biggest suprise was the Voodoo which had a little more turn than the Wizard, but pushed a little farther before it fell slightly left. I already carry Wizards and Warlocks, but will probably add the Voodoo for slightly longer straighter putter drives, and I'm gonna swap out my beaten Warlock with the Magic.

The S Element dumped into the wind, which I expected even with a lot of hyzer. Haven't tried to roll it yet. The E Element flipped up and held a nice anny line that glided forever. The Warrior held a nice flat line with a strong left finish even into the wind. That baby is a beefy mid. More so than the KC Roc. I think the E Element and CE Warrior will find a spot in the bag as well. Can't wait to track down a stiffer E Warrior. Mine is pretty gummy.

The E Blaze was nice and overstable into the wind and drove hard forward with a strong left finish. I liken it to a Whippet X with a bit more glide and less skip. Next, I threw the E Sabre which had a nice long turn to the right with a straight finish.

The Assassins were awesome!! Just like an Eagle-L with WAY more glide and therefore more D. They had a slight right turn that glided a long way. I wasn't big fan of the grip on the Illusion and did not throw it real well, but more tosses may yield more results. The CE Spirit I threw was mega beefy. It moves left the whole way out of my hand. I see this disc being useful for huge hyzers and very effective "S" forehand shots. It reminded me of a brand new Monster.

I hope to get out and play somewhere this afternoon with my new Gateway stuff in tow. I will post again tomorrow and let you know what I learn.

Thanks again Dave for the sweet plastic!! I already have few buddies wanting to try it out!!

SK

I was finally able to get out and throw some discs since the snow melted. I REALLY like the Clear Evolution Element! It is very controllable and has great glide. I was happy to finally be able to throw them. ; )

Got to play with my new plastic yesterday. Let me start off by saying that I love the Clear Evolution plastic. I unfortunately made contact with a couple trees and one piece of pavement plating with them yesterday. They still look brand new!! Serious durability.

I love the CE Sabre, CE Blaze, CE Warrior, CE Element, E Assassin and Voodoo. All six have made into the regular rotation. I found myself reaching for them almost every hole. I think the predictability, consistency, and durability of this plastic is going to shave shots off my game.

Thanks Dave!!! Keep em' comin!!!

SK

Anyone thrown the CE Wizard? I had two of them but I traded them to another team member for their dri-fit.

Anyone thrown the CE Wizard? I had two of them but I traded them to another team member for their dri-fit.



I ordered one about a week ago and it should be here tomorrow. I'm hoping I like it as much/more than my current Wizard :)

Did you never throw them?

I have two that I have played about 3 rounds with plus practice. The CE plastic has an edge on the bottom of the rim that doesn't want to wear off. It does seem to cut into the hands a little bit if you have extremely dry hands. I'm about read to take some sand paper to it if it doesn't wear off soon. ;) That is my ONLY complaint.

I like the gummy-ness because it feels like my beat in SSS but when it gets warmer it may be a little too gummy. I use it for my putter-driver right now until I get more used to it. It seems a little bit more overstable than my SSS Wizards but that may be because of how beat my SSS's are. I don't have a fresh SSS to compare it to.

Dave,

I think it would be cool to stamp some hard wizards as chiefs again, instead of reusing the name on another disc. Just my .02!

Chris

I will try address some of the scientific or aerodynamic differences between the Wizard and Aviar.

First of all I believe the Wizard is a bit longer in flight than either aviar and just about all putters.
Most guys who can throw big with a putter will agree!

It is more based on Gyroscopic effect, balance of air deflection and the materials on the surface of the discs.

The more matted the finish on the discs the less contact the air makes with the actual surface. We do this with the rubber in our materials. It causes less surface friction and a reduction of drag!
The Wizards balance of air under and over the leading edge is much closer to Equal than the Aviar and that certainly adds to Glide on decleration. The Wizard has better stabity for a wider range of Speeds.
A P& A will flip pretty quick when thrown hard and a Kc will fade left more than a Wizard at low speeds.
Keeping in laymans terms the wizards stability covers a much larger velocity range than either aviar p&a or a big bead.

As for the techniical reasons why, most are based on the angles of the deflection {wing vs top or dome VS bead)!.

Here are a few others:
1) The Wizard is smaller in mass around 125 cubic CM and the Aviar is around 140 maybe 145.
The equates to less over all space taken up by the object.
If both discs were to weigh 175, the wizards denisity would have to be 1.4 while the aviar is only 1.2. even with both discs weigh 175g our plastis in ours is heavier and even distributed much differently.

2) besides the shape of the nose which is quite different the rim is still close in mass or size, to the Aviar.
The wizard has a .063 thick flight plate though and the aviar is over .075. At 1-1/2" in from the outer edge of the Wizard, the flight plate begins to thicken and by the time it gets to the shoulder, (where the inside rim meets the flight plate) our thickness is up to .125 heading into the rim! Even soft wizards feel beefy at first, but you can break them in by flexing them. Because we use such high end rubbers the rebound resillancy( memory) is greater as is the abbrasion reistance, so they come right back to shape only a bit more flexible.
The surface, even on firm wizards is still very grippy and tacky for grabbing chains.

The added thickness in the outer part of the rim helps tremendoulsy in 2 different ways over the aviar.
1st,, it adds structure stability to the over all shape of the disc by reinforcing it, because of the added thickness. Even a very used wizard will remain close to perfect roundness)
The 2nd function is adding to the gyroscopicness of the disc, Flat out a more gyroscopic disc will spin longer. The longer the spin, the longer a disc can hold a flight pattern. Bottom line, The Wizard is straighter and flies with a much tighter "S" pattern and will hold just about any line you put it on for a longer period of time whether its 30 feet or 300 feet, 20 mph or 70 MPH!!!!.

3rd)The thickness of outer part of the flight plate thins down quickly at the 1-1/2" mark to the thinner .063 ( compared to the .075 of the aviar) This allows for a much better feel between your thunmb and fingers when pinching the flight plate for putting, because they are closer together. You can get better touch witha thinner flight plate.

Besides all the technical mumble jumble, the real reaosn we feel our putters are more successful is the range of grips and feels. Its like buying a good micro brew compared to the same old bud light! ( No offense dave D, but we spend hours dry blending formulas for 200-1200 disc batches and I'm sure your way past that stage for the putters)
It takes up a lot of time and cuases funky wieghts and blended colors!
We may run a 60 disc batch and make it softer or firmer and then blend and run a 300 lb batch.

Every player seems to like a different aspect of a putter.
You wind up using it on every single and sometimes more than once, so you better really like it!!!!
A lot of people arepalying iwth and liking the wizard for all shots under 300 feet!
We sell a lot of them and will soon be selling a lot more!

We are working on some packaging for the wizard and they should wind up in some of the big box retailers and more existing disc golf outolets.
We have some verbals from interest form Target, Sports Authority and sveral other national corporations
The wizards wont be so hard to get one day real soon!!!!!!!!!!! :D/msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif



Dave, I was reading this post again (someone asked me "why" Gateway discs?), and I was wondering if you use this same method [thin-thick] flight plate in your other discs like the Voodoo, Element and Warrior. Can you tell us what makes the Element/Warrior different from other midrange discs? And if you use this technology in your drivers as well?

David,

i was able to get out this weekend and throw some of the new stuff. the sabre is a permanent staple in my bag now!!! the blaze is working its way in and the voodoo is a great upshot disc. i tried out the e wizard but it wasnt as stable as i had hoped for those hyzer up shots but it is a very straight flyer with a small bit of hyzer at the end!!! the spirit is way more stable in the new hpp plastic than any other spirit i have thrown(even the nike plastic)!!!! the hpp warrior is kind of like my rocs but i still like it, i prob wont throw it in the bag since its so much like my other discs but it feels super grippy! the new hpp clear red elements feel very nice. i havent been able to try them out yet but i will be doing that in a few weeks along with the s warrior.

i hope you are having fun in colorado putting in that course!

see you around

[QUOTE]


Dave, I was reading this post again (someone asked me "why" Gateway discs?), and I was wondering if you use this same method [thin-thick] flight plate in your other discs like the Voodoo, Element and Warrior. Can you tell us what makes the Element/Warrior different from other midrange discs? And if you use this technology in your drivers as well?



Yes the Elements have a little thickness added in the flight plate just before it meets the rim, similar to the putters (all 4 putters have the same top and bottom so the added thickness is on all 4).
this thickness reinforces the shape of the discs preventing them from getting tweaked out upon impacts as well as adds more weight to the perimeter of the disc, making it spin longer which makes it stay in the air longer!

I'm especially liking the "S" warrior, I can throw it pretty much as hard as I can flat and it just goes straight.
The nose has a more rounded radius and is quite beefy and with the thin flight plate .070,,,, it just seems to stay spinning forever.
The adding of the radius where the rim depth meets the flight plate reduces the drag on the discs ( on both the element and warrior) making them a bit faster than before, plus they really feel comfortable with all grips ( power, fan, modified fan, pinch or stacked grip).
The newer players notice the radius where the rim meets the flight plate the most and most seem to REALLY like the feel.
Players with good technique and not as much power are throwing the Elements as far as they are their drivers as they don't fade off much after gliding!

The Sabre has a .090 flight plate thickness which is about 25% thicker than other fiaiway drivers like the TL and XL.
This keeps the discs flight pattern tighter not allowing it to move left or right as much. It also allows for higher flights, but thats also due to the dome on them.
the newer flatter E cannot be thrown quite as high and therefore stay a little more stable at the lower trajectories.
The Hybird only has a .063 flight plate which is why we have such a hard time getting the weight up in the NEW clear E and have decided to discontinue full production of them.
This sharper nose and thin flight plate will be used for one of the NEW longer winged drivers.
We are just finishing up the final shapes of the wing on these NEW drivers and will start cutting the mold next week!
The wing length and rim depth with be really close to a wraith and we hope to have an under stable high speed driver right out of the box when its all said and done. ( think longer winged sharper nosed assassin, but in the NEW Sweet Clear E!!!)

We are looking for a few new names, (will probably need 3 and might even have a contest, so you might want to keep them to yourself for now),,, right now BIG BOY is on the top of the list of new names along with G1 and GIANT!

Any thoughts on these names? :confused: :confused:

Well if you want a pattern similar to the ones mentioned or something sounding massive and/or god-like the ones I suggest are...

Biggin'
Goliath
Mongol
Boost
Colossus
Behemoth
Mammoth
Juggernaut
King
Supreme
Dozer
Apex (although I do know this one has been tossed around)
Conqueror
Barbarian
Desperado
Pinnacle
Vertex
Vortex

Thank goodness for the Merrian-Webster Thesaurus

I'm especially liking the "S" warrior, I can throw it pretty much as hard as I can flat and it just goes straight.



I would like to echo this sentiment. As a long time buzz thrower, I recently bought some S warriors to replace my wasp (which i've never really liked). The warrior ended up being so straight after a week or so (Texas can be hard on discs) that it is now taking care of all mid range duties (I have a E warrior in a clear bendy plastic that is crazy overstable). I do have one question though. Have you been able to get one to beat into understable yet? If so, how does it handle the job?

Vortex




Discraft had a driver a couple of years ago with that name.

Dave,

I just wanted to report that the plastic my organic Voodoo is made of is holding up at least as well as any of your standard plastic models. I really prefer the feel of that plastic over any other as well, although it does not feel that different from your other putter plastics. I have 9 of them at max weight and I don't think that you made too many, so when will you be running them again?

are you talking about the firmer ones that are either green / blue-green??
or are they black?
what flexibility on our scale of 1-10?

We should have some of the green and blue green (like army green), they are between soft and medium,, like an 8

We will get some of the OG ran in all of the putters during March,,, about 300 of each to start and we will see how they go!

I'm especially liking the "S" warrior, I can throw it pretty much as hard as I can flat and it just goes straight.



I would like to echo this sentiment. As a long time buzz thrower, I recently bought some S warriors to replace my wasp (which i've never really liked). The warrior ended up being so straight after a week or so (Texas can be hard on discs) that it is now taking care of all mid range duties (I have a E warrior in a clear bendy plastic that is crazy overstable). I do have one question though. Have you been able to get one to beat into understable yet? If so, how does it handle the job?



I did get a few broken in to where they were flying straight, but not understable.
In fact some of the 2nd run are not quite as overstable to start with. (most of the 2nd run E warriors are a bright Yellow).
personally I prefer the S plastic, especially for mid-Ranges.
I have a 2 "S" Element 1 "S" warrior mid-range set up right now that seems to be working well for me.
I prefer a bit of dome over flat, but I know a lot of players like FLAT TOP discs,,, unfortunately there is not as much lift on flat discs and to me they are not as controllable when throwing FLEX S-shots with fan grips where you are stalling out the disc to cut at just the right moment on tight wooded courses.

Nikko likes the softer flexible NEW E stuff and has one of the E warriors I broke in and says he can do whatever he wants with it,,, but then again he's playing 40 plus hours a week :D:D

Rapier

are you talking about the firmer ones that are either green / blue-green??
or are they black?
what flexibility on our scale of 1-10?

We should have some of the green and blue green (like army green), they are between soft and medium,, like an 8

We will get some of the OG ran in all of the putters during March,,, about 300 of each to start and we will see how they go!



I have black ones that are between soft and medium. Definetely a bit stiffer than the large run of S softs. Although they are black, they reflect white in the sun...

BTW--I would like to pass on some experimental observations regarding the plastic. My friend threw one of my OG Voodoos in the canal behind my house in December. I found it yesterday, and despite being "organic", nothing had managed to start growing on the disc and it looks and feels perfect after a wash.

Hey Dave,

I loved the feel of the gummy E plastic that you had at the shop, but I would like to see them opaque. It is hard enough to find a disc thrown on holes that are blind and even harder when the discs are clear. Do you have any way to make the really gummy E plastic without being clear or transparent?

Is the stamp that's going on the voodoos the real stamp, or one to to take up space while a real on is being drawn up?

are you talking about the one we just started using that with the voodoo mask?

I have a quest question: Do the double d discs float above 165?

I had one that floated at 174g so from my experience yes, but it could have been an anomaly.

I stopped by your shop the other day and felt some of the gummy clear discs you had, felt pretty nice! How do they fly? Any scientific advantages from a gummy plastic?

What are the shop hours? I will be in StL the 16th-20th. I'll probably only get to get in a roun on the 16th. I plan on playin all day. I get in around 12.

Sorry but I had to post this here Dave. Go Nikko!!! Throwing a 1089 rated round today at The Memorial.

Hi Dave,

Gateway has the best putters on the market... period.

I am very impressed with the few E and S Warriors I saw in the store. I see this as being a great disc for Gateway. It molds very nicely, and your new blends of E are really outstanding. Outstanding!!! Keep it up.

I would like to comment on one thing. The thin/thick flight plate. I am a huge fan of the THICK flight plate. I have my doubts how much it really effects the flight, but I do know that discs with thick flight plates mold ten times more consistently. The shrinkage is just so much less that the disc comes out of the mold and holds its "proper" shape. The discs with thin flight plates are all over the map (flat, domey, poppy top).

A good example is the Leopard. It appears to have a very thick flight plate, even more than the Teebird, Eagle, etc. Now that it is being molded in Star and Champ, I never see a bad one. They all look exactly the same (even in 150 blend they look the same). They are also basically indestructible in premo plastics and never break into squirrely.

I am not a molder like you, but this is what I see.

I still think the wide winged drivers with a thick flight plate, and some kind of hollow rim would be superior to the current drivers. That way even more dense plastics could be used for ruggedness, and the disc would be LESS gyroscopic not more.

It seems to me that more snap would be applied with less gyroscopic discs because there would be less angular resistance. Imagine a Wraith that could be snapped as hard as a Wizard.

Congrats to Nikko and Team Gateway for their win at the Memorial. Starting off the new year with a Gateway win! Keep those great discs coming Dave!

WHOOT!

Heck yeah! Way to go Nikko!!! : )

Keep it up, Nikko! Take it all the way to Worlds and USDGC!

Congrats to Nikko ... impressive win man! Was fun watching the score from afar.
Go team Gateway!
I see good things happening.

NIce win Nikko and Gateway.

Dave i was excited to see gateway produce the clear EVO but was dissappointed when I felt the wizard in this plastic real gummy. I thought it was gonna be like Innova's champion and discraft's Z but it is way gummy. Any chance that it'll get retooled and made into a stiffer plastic? I love your other putters just switched from warlocks to the voodoo and would really like a voodoo in the new plastic if it was stiffer.

we shold be running a stiffer E in a few molds,,, specifically the Element and Spirit.
Most players like the gummy stuff for putters, but I know I would prefer a stiffer E for off the tee and lay ups!.
There are some Milky White E Wizards that are a bit stiffer and some OPAQUE red that are a lot stiffer. They still all E ( no pro line mixed) and are even a bit more overstable.
You would love them,,, we just haven't stamped many of the red yet as players just seem to have to have Clear or translucent at the very least!

Dave, I finally got my hands on one of the CE Blazes. This thing performs like a dream! I have some pearly Blazes that just don't behave as overstable as I would prefer from this mold. The CE is very overstable, and is very nice for spikes and predictable controlled skips.

Great work on the clear plastic. Is there any way to brighten it up though? I've lost 2 clear Sabres (one orange, the other clear) because I couldn't see them once they hit the ground. I really love this plastic, but I can't justify buying more of it if I can't find it in the woods or some loose leaves.

what was in nikko's bag? i watched the final round and saw him pull out what looked to be an innova star disc (boss) for the giant hyzer on #15.
congrats to him!

we shold be running a stiffer E in a few molds,,, specifically the Element and Spirit.
Most players like the gummy stuff for putters, but I know I would prefer a stiffer E for off the tee and lay ups!.
There are some Milky White E Wizards that are a bit stiffer and some OPAQUE red that are a lot stiffer. They still all E ( no pro line mixed) and are even a bit more overstable.
You would love them,,, we just haven't stamped many of the red yet as players just seem to have to have Clear or translucent at the very least!



Dave, Oh yeah ... OPAQUE red Wizards. I'll be giving you a ring.
I too would like to see some stiffer opaque red Elements, Warrior and how about a Saber?

we shold be running a stiffer E in a few molds,,, specifically the Element and Spirit.
Most players like the gummy stuff for putters, but I know I would prefer a stiffer E for off the tee and lay ups!.
There are some Milky White E Wizards that are a bit stiffer and some OPAQUE red that are a lot stiffer. They still all E ( no pro line mixed) and are even a bit more overstable.
You would love them,,, we just haven't stamped many of the red yet as players just seem to have to have Clear or translucent at the very least!


SOft is good but I'd like to see a stiff warlock or Voodoo for up shots stiff I mean like a KC Pro Aviar I do have a opaque E Voodoo and love it.

we shold be running a stiffer E in a few molds,,, specifically the Element and Spirit.
Most players like the gummy stuff for putters, but I know I would prefer a stiffer E for off the tee and lay ups!.
There are some Milky White E Wizards that are a bit stiffer and some OPAQUE red that are a lot stiffer. They still all E ( no pro line mixed) and are even a bit more overstable.
You would love them,,, we just haven't stamped many of the red yet as players just seem to have to have Clear or translucent at the very least!


SOft is good but I'd like to see a stiff warlock or Voodoo for up shots stiff I mean like a KC Pro Aviar I do have a opaque E Voodoo and love it.


I thinking your looking for Medium Sure grip ( well its actually stiff), which almost identical to 9X, 10X, 11X KC aviar material.
Stiff E will feel nothing like those!

Nikko grabbed one of those Opaque red E Wizards when he got back and saw him throw it today at Unger.
It looked pretty overstable and held up great in the wind!

I saw Nikkos bag today.
it looked like he had a peach Star Boss, an excaliber, 2 destroyers, an E spirit, an Illusion ( rollers I'm guessing), an E sabre, E Blaze, E Warrior, A cyrstal Buzz, an Element and about 6 different Wizards

Will the shop be open on Monday? I will be in STL next week , and weather permitting, I'm hoping to play JB and Endicott and go to the shop and hand pick some stuff

Hey Dave, Any chance on running the gummy opaque E plastics for the Diablo DT or the Assassin?

Actually we prototyped the new driver today "the Apex" in the NEW E and another small batch with a little H ( pro line) in the mix,, they fly similar to a surge/wraith, which is similar to an Assassin.
so YES, but the wing in the apex is a little longer than the Assassin!!
Initial testing was promising,,,,a very long glide with a lot of control!!!

We still have a little work to do on the mold but they should be ready to ship out next week!

Will the shop be open on monday?

That is perfect Dave. I had been waiting for a disc similar to the Surge/Wraith and the Diablo was close but it was a tad stable and the Assassin has proven to be a consistant long range driver with insane glide that is predictable. By getting the best of both of these in one disc my game should come together nicely this year.

Dave,

Is the Voodoo approved? Or have I been illegal for the past several tourney by putting with it? It evidently is not on the updated "approved" list. http://www.pdga.com/files/documents/PDGA_approved_discs_30109.pdf

When the VooDoo was released, it hadn't been submitted to the Board for approval. Not sure if it has been submitted by now, or not.

When the VooDoo was released, it hadn't been submitted to the Board for approval. Not sure if it has been submitted by now, or not.



so they're making discs marked pdga approved that aren't??? for shame!

Dave was contacted again today to get the Voodoo on his "To-do"

So I've been putting illegally??

If somebody called it.

C'mon Dave...Your company's reputation has steadily gained prestige since I've been playing. I often advocate for you to people who view Gateway as "something done in a garage". This does not present an image of professionalism. PLEASE SUBMIT THE VOODOO! I love them and I want to continue putting with them, especially in tournaments. Thanks Dave!

Interesting stuff ... should we be worried about using any other Gateway discs at tourneys coming up?

Is the Warrior approved?

I've been putting with the Voodoo for months ... I'm concerned about the approval.

Once the name of a disc is approved, then mold changes can be made without re-approval. (Like the Gator/GatorX Firebird/FX Eagle/EX etc.) So Warrior is cool! But if Discraft started calling Magnets, let's say Magnuts, they'd have to submit for re-approval, even though the same mold.

COme on Dave get the VooDoo in I have switched to them from the Warlock

Well since us Voodoo throwers have just discovered we have been playing with an illegal disc not just once, but for entire rounds at a time should we turn ourselves in, or will we be forgiven and granted amnesty?? I would have no problem simply putting my Warlock back in the bag, but I played a tournament and won in January using the Voodoo as my main putter, and now I feel as if I cheated. Granted, its not like the Voodoo caused me to win, but I hate knowing that I broke the rules.

Read 804.03 G(1) and see what you think.

I'm sure the disc was so good it shaved 10 strokes of your score.............half the people you played with probably had an illegal disc too.

SotD...

Once awards have been handed out, the tournament is over.

No worries.

Once the name of a disc is approved, then mold changes can be made without re-approval. (Like the Gator/GatorX Firebird/FX Eagle/EX etc.) So Warrior is cool! But if Discraft started calling Magnets, let's say Magnuts, they'd have to submit for re-approval, even though the same mold.



...a completely silly and backwards rule...

When a company makes a product called the X-Static, they may have multiple suppliers for the same materials or components needed to make X-Static. They do not tell the consumer which suppliers' components and materials were combined for each production run. To the consumer, it's still an X-Static. How many versions of the Ford Taurus or Acer A2100 computer do you think are out there that were made with different combinations of components? Now when the Ford Taurus is called the Mercury Sable, even if it hasn't been tweaked much if any beyond the name change, it becomes a new product.

David Mac remember to send in the new retooled Element and Element X (renamed Warrior) also for approval?

Vever for Kalfu
Original ring of fire inspiration
http://www.voodooshop.com/images/vevers/kalfu.gif

Secret ritual held recently
http://www.voodooshop.com/gallery/oct_2002/thumbnails/DSCN1008_t.jpg
Moving basket adds to challenge.

Chuck,

I think I know what you're getting at, but your analogy is not relevant (or misleading at best). A Taurus has many parts (thousands) to it; a golfing disc has 1 (or maybe 2 in the case of some of Quests/Gateways).
And what is important (in reality) is how the "product" performs - whether to the customer's expectations or not. In the case of the Taurus vs. Sable, everyone know they'll "perform" (basically) the same. The most important aspect of our product - the disc - will NOT perform if "tweaked" much at all (thus customer expectations are blown out of the water).
NG from a PR standpoint...as is the crux of this discussion (I think).

Karl

Just changing the paint or upholstery color can change the heating/cooling aspects of a Taurus and the probability it will be stopped for speeding in the same way a different colorant in the same mold might change the characteristics of a disc. I doubt anyone would disagree that whacking a tree with a DX disc changes its flight characteristics more than some plastic change.

A new Warrior mid-range cannot be legal just because there was driver in the past named Warrior by the same company.

If that is truly the case - then disc approval is a joke and the money spent on it should be redirected to larger pay-outs.

A new Warrior mid-range cannot be legal just because there was driver in the past named Warrior by the same company.


Agreed. This is more like a gallon of milk being called a Taurus and costing $12,000.

I think mold pieces should be taken into consideration. Each mold piece has quantifiable characteristics visible on the molded product, and there should be reasonable allowance for run/material variation. But when a Firebird is re-topped into say, an Orion LF mold... then obviously that mold has changed. A wing change, top change, even many core changes are obvious. A simple retool or a name-Lazarus like Warrior should need approval (for a greatly reduced fee). Approval solely by marketed name doesn't work, Warrior II proves it... same name, not a single mold piece in common. That means none of the specs for the approved Warrior are correct now, are they?

In this whole situation, I think the "approval" process is more of a joke and fiasco than Dave spacing the V-doo.

the question should be, can quest rename the mold used for 'the wheel' or the 'turbo putt' and call it the 'defender' and make it legal for use? just because theyve used the name 'defender' and had it approved??

If you could create a new policy regarding when discs or targets that have new names, parts, plastics or molds, need to be resubmitted for testing and approval, what would it be?

If you could create a new policy regarding when discs or targets that have new names, parts, plastics or molds, need to be resubmitted for testing and approval, what would it be?



Pay us some consulting fees 1st.

If you could create a new policy regarding when discs or targets that have new names, parts, plastics or molds, need to be resubmitted for testing and approval, what would it be?



any mold changes would need to re-submit, name changes to existing mold would not. plastic would be approved by type, not by mold and type.

Pay us some consulting fees 1st.


Glad to do it but you'd have to reimburse me for the cost of the stamp since I couldn't deduct it from the zero $$s I would send as your 5% of my Tech Standards consulting income.

Pay us some consulting fees 1st.


Glad to do it but you'd have to reimburse me for the cost of the stamp since I couldn't deduct it from the zero $$s I would send as your 5% of my Tech Standards consulting income.



Wow that was phunny Chuck.

When is that PDGA election? I saw that they had a call for candidates and was wondering if anyone had voiced that they would like to run for Executive Director?

any mold changes would need to re-submit, name changes to existing mold would not. plastic would be approved by type, not by mold and type.


Seems like we would have to require the manufacturers to identify mold parts with a code stamped in the disc to confirm compliance?

When is that PDGA election? I saw that they had a call for candidates and was wondering if anyone had voiced that they would like to run for Executive Director?


That's not an elected position. You would need to get elected to the Board and have at least three other Board members vote not to renew his contract whenever it was up for renewal. I believe election is in July.

When is that PDGA election? I saw that they had a call for candidates and was wondering if anyone had voiced that they would like to run for Executive Director?


That's not an elected position. You would need to get elected to the Board and have at least three other Board members vote not to renew his contract whenever it was up for renewal. I believe election is in July.



Oh ok, well it would be nice to see the Pdga try something different in order to speed up the "slow and steady" that hasn't gotten us to far.

Remember that Brian is only one part of the PDGA operation. The Board influences how "fast" changes are made along with the committees and staff. The only things that can be done faster than normal are a project you take on yourself that the PDGA agrees are worth supporting and uses few of their resources. The Super Class initiative is a recent example and data sharing with DGcoursereview.com is another. Since this is a Gateway thread, I think Dave is hoping to produce a Super Class disc when he can get to it.

SuperClass! I told you!

If you could create a new policy regarding when discs or targets that have new names, parts, plastics or molds, need to be resubmitted for testing and approval, what would it be?


Honor system, appended to the bulk of the current approval process. No big fees either.

If a manufacturer changes the mold configuration (excluding mold piece duplicates, like the multiple Aviar cores) then they should submit one for re-examination, at least to have the specs updated, and some note made in the Approved list of a change in configuration. It should be free, or greatly reduced, for any disc that is going to continue being marketed under the old name, or is a renamed but previously approved configuration.

If a manufacturer starts swapping mold pieces or retooling without an updated submission, then disc golfers can get in a huff and cause bad press for the manufacturer, and the PDGA can kindly request that a frisbee be sacrificed for testing.

If people swear on their lives that, for example, the domey Firebirds have a different mold top than the flat Firebirds, then Dave D can state that it's an unintentional run variation, and at his choosing send along a modern molding for updated specs, free of charge. No mold piece identification, and all respect toward trade secrets.

I think this would work for mold configurations, materials, and molding techniques (stabilizing or cooling). One-time model approval, and free/cheap updates, in the spirit of keeping the most reasonably accurate specs on the list of approved discs.

any mold changes would need to re-submit, name changes to existing mold would not. plastic would be approved by type, not by mold and type.


Seems like we would have to require the manufacturers to identify mold parts with a code stamped in the disc to confirm compliance?



sounds reasonable to me. grandfather the old stuff with the caveat that when they break and have to be remade they have to be remade with the code.

If you could create a new policy regarding when discs or targets that have new names, parts, plastics or molds, need to be resubmitted for testing and approval, what would it be?



Pay us some consulting fees 1st.




^^^^^^^^The best rebuttal ever :D^^^^^^

SuperClass! I told you!


Just for you. :D

sounds reasonable to me. grandfather the old stuff with the caveat that when they break and have to be remade they have to be remade with the code.


Except as I understand it, there are interchangeable tops, spacers and bottoms. Wouldn't we need to have those codes molded or stamped on each part of the disc as opposed to a single identifying mark?

that's what i meant (except for not knowing about the spacers)- different codes for each top and bottom.

I hope Dave is busy sending discs to the PDGA since he has not been here!! :D:D

I just talked to him on the phone ... he's BUSY!

Business is rocking this so far this year.

He was supposed to meet up with me on monday, but he got too bogged down with business. JB was rockin that stamping press. There was a ton of stock to stamp. No M wizards though :(

Yeah I know. I have been after them for about 10+ days now (M Wizards).

I hope they run some black m wizards when they get a chance. I am interested to hear more about the new driver.

Dave said it's looking good. Kind of Beast/Wraith like, good for players with 350' or so distance. There are still some mold issues and only a test batch has been run.
They're sending me a proto to try out ... I'm old and 350' on flat ground is pretty good for me, lol. I throw Beasts and Wraiths now.

Apparently there was some issue with the name Apex (does that sound like a discraft disc to you?). Poo-poo ... I like the name Apex.

Rapier

Yeah we are spacing on the Voodoo approval.
I sent the voodoos in to Geoff H for approval 3 months ago but didn't send it the forms with OUR measurements.
I'm fairly certain they are well within all the rules,in fact he told me they passed.
We will get the forms sent over to Geoff the first part of next week.

As far the Warrior goes, we retooled the nose of the Element X and brought back one of our old names we used to use.
It seems people thought element X's were x-outs so we wanted to avoid this and we re-used an old name ( the Warrior),,,,, that in my opinion,,, we already paid to be able to use.
We paid for 2 disc names and now I'm only using one of them, should I have to pay for the warrior name again???
I know its like a looking for a loop hole in a law but most people I know,,, including me need to save every $$$$ they can save!



In my opinion the only thing that should really matter is if the mold and discs produced from it meet all the required rules set forth, how we market them through polymers and such should be our own business,,, I'm certain the other disc manufactures would agree if you asked them!

I was a big fan of the Element-X in S Plastic but the PDGA should give a pass because of a marketing mistake made by GDS?

Because of confusion over x-outs the PDGA should allow GDS a pass on the renaming of a retooled disc?

So the plastic is different, the nose is different, the name is different, the line is different, the purpose is different - but it should get a pass because GDS picked a bad name?

That's weak.

I guess your right Jim,,, its weak,,, but it never hurts to ask, after all we did pay to use the name Warrior.

The retooling of the ELX made the disc more overstable and have more resistance to turn , but its basically the same mold.

I guess your right Jim,,, its weak,,, but it never hurts to ask, after all we did pay to use the name Warrior.




Maybe I am just confused since I have never produced an approved PDGA disc.

Is the disc approved per exact specifications or is the disc's name registered for a fee on an approved list?

Is it a governing body or a racketeering organization? As long as the PDGA gets its cut "it's all good"?

I am hoping that it is a legitimate governing body... But I don't know much sitting here in fly-over country.

Haven't seen much from the PDGA in our neck of the woods - we pay our tourney dues and get our event insurance hoping that it will "work" for us if we every have to use it.

And the rest of it is basically on blind faith and what I read here.

And don't get me wrong, I think it is a bad reflection on the PDGA, itself, that there is question at all when it comes to this.

This type of issue should be cut and dry... how can there be any question as to what is or is not an approved disc.

And how can there be any question as to what the "rules" are when it comes to approved discs.

But what should be expected? Since basically there are only baskets/targets and discs when it comes this game. And there are exceptions and total ignoring of the rules for both at "sanctioned" events all over the country.

It is a "Professional" organization or it is not... there is a defined approval process or there isn't.

The PDGA should be a Professional Disc Golf Association or it should end the charade and change its name.

It should not be up to Chuck Kennedy to comment repeatedly as to what he thinks the PDGA thinks...

How can this even be an issue after the Blow Fly II or the SL deal?

PDGA - Make a call... this is sad, why would David McCormack even have to ask if his new "Warrior" is legal?

Anything related to GDS is posted right on this thread - we even know when a GDS disciple thinks that an upside down Wizard is the best dog bowl on the course - of course his opinion changed when the Magic came out and now that the Voodoo has been released - that is the best disc to use for watering a dog because of some variation in gyroscopic tendencies...

How many months has GDS folks been talking about the "Warrior"? The PDGA can't even monitor its own boards and maybe remind or inform GDS of what will be necessary to make that disc legal?

No, the PDGA just lets the problem fester... and let's confusion rule the day.

Same goes for the Voodoo. There is zero excuse that the PDGA can't make its members aware that the voodoo isn't an approved disc when it has been discussed for months on its very website.

And what is the ramification of stamping a disc approved that isn't? What are rules worth if there are no ramifications for ignoring them?

The whole thing is just so amateurish... a hobby pretending that it is a sport.

Yeah we are spacing on the Voodoo approval.
I sent the voodoos in to Geoff H for approval 3 months ago but didn't send it the forms with OUR measurements.
I'm fairly certain they are well within all the rules,in fact he told me they passed.
We will get the forms sent over to Geoff the first part of next week.

As far the Warrior goes, we retooled the nose of the Element X and brought back one of our old names we used to use.
It seems people thought element X's were x-outs so we wanted to avoid this and we re-used an old name ( the Warrior),,,,, that in my opinion,,, we already paid to be able to use.
We paid for 2 disc names and now I'm only using one of them, should I have to pay for the warrior name again???
I know its like a looking for a loop hole in a law but most people I know,,, including me need to save every $$$$ they can save!



In my opinion the only thing that should really matter is if the mold and discs produced from it meet all the required rules set forth, how we market them through polymers and such should be our own business,,, I'm certain the other disc manufactures would agree if you asked them!



Thanks for being accountable to the peanut gallery here! It makes us feel important... ;)

Same goes for the Voodoo. There is zero excuse that the PDGA can't make its members aware that the voodoo isn't an approved disc when it has been discussed for months on its very website.


The Voodoo was never on a PDGA Approved disc list. That's as much notification as members ever get on disc models. Would you think we should notify members of discs NOT on the list? How can the PDGA be at fault for manufacturers producing discs with the PDGA Approved stamp on them and not completing the approval process? The PDGA can be at fault for not taking action once discovered and that's underway.

The sport is self officiated. If anyone was at fault over these past months, it was the players and TDs who saw the Voodoo being used and not calling players for using an illegal disc and not notifying the PDGA. Granted, they would have to have seen that the disc was not on the Approved list. And yes, in this case I can comment for the PDGA regarding this issue as a member of the PDGA Tech Standards Committee.

Same goes for the Voodoo. There is zero excuse that the PDGA can't make its members aware that the voodoo isn't an approved disc when it has been discussed for months on its very website.


The Voodoo was never on a PDGA Approved disc list. That's as much notification as members ever get on disc models. Would you think we should notify members of discs NOT on the list? How can the PDGA be at fault for manufacturers producing discs with the PDGA Approved stamp on them and not completing the approval process? The PDGA can be at fault for not taking action once discovered and that's underway.

The sport is self officiated. If anyone was at fault over these past months, it was the players and TDs who saw the Voodoo being used and not calling players for using an illegal disc and not notifying the PDGA. Granted, they would have to have seen that the disc was not on the Approved list. And yes, in this case I can comment for the PDGA regarding this issue as a member of the PDGA Tech Standards Committee.



Chuck,

The disc says PDGA Approved in the tooling. What if anything has been up to date and working on the PDGA website until recently?

There are members scores and ratings that are wrong going back 9 months...

But it is the TD's and Players' fault for not calling these discs illegal when the PDGA hadn't made comment - simply, wow...

You are all over these boards... and on the Tech Standards Committee? Then you are part of the problem...

There are pages and pages on this forum of people talking about throwing the VooDoo - and silence?

You will comment and add two cents on any subject under the sun - on any number of boards/forums, but a disc being discussed on the PDGA Forums that isn't even on the list - silence for months?

And the Warrior - no discussion as a member of the vaunted Standards Board?

So it isn't the PDGA's fault, it isn't even Gateway's fault - in Chuck's world it is the army of VOLUNTEER TD's fault?

Again - a hobby masquerading as a sport...

How many pages of discussion on this official PDGA board with no official word on the VooDoo or Warrior Status?

So the official position of the Tech Standars board is it isn't their job, it isn't the PDGA's job, it isn't the manufacturer's job - it is the volunteer TD's job.

The guy sitting at the picnic table, in the shelter or on the tailgate - he is front line and the last line of defense on the subject... fascinating.

The Discussion Board is not an official channel for members to communicate with the PDGA. I'll say it again. The Discussion Board is not an official channel for members to communicate with the PDGA. Simple as that.

There are official Contacts on this website to send concerns to the PDGA. TDs and players are more than willing to email the PDGA when there are other rules infractions. Why not illegal discs? It's just another rule that players and TDs have difficulty taking responsibility for. Granted, they have to carry a list. However, suggest another way to let players know what discs are legal, especially when a manufacturer puts PDGA Approved on the disc and it hasn't gotten it approved?

The PDGA can apply penalties but does not call the rules with the exception of marshals. Even then, marshals expect players to make the calls with marshals backing them up or resolving disputes. It wasn't until someone directly asked about the Voodoo that I heard about the problem and took immediate action.

"PDGA - Contact Us



Email this page Print Official PDGA Announcements"

This what my screen shows when I try to contact the rules folks following the link in the Contact header...

Nothing...

The question I wanted to officially ask, "Is the new 'Warrior' a legal disc or not?"

Try this link: www.pdga.com/contact (http://www.pdga.com/contact) I'm not sure all of the menu items work from the D-Board menu. Hopefully, they'll be able to get new D-Board will be online sometime in April.

Here's the procedure. The Warrior is an Approved disc. If any changes were made in the Warrior mold per the wording below, then the manufacturer is expected to submit new discs for retesting. It may not require a new testing fee. We only know if those changes are made based on communication from the manufacturer or people who formally contact the PDGA asking the Tech group (Homburg) to check into it.

(E) Retesting
There are several circumstances under which a disc that has been previously approved is required to be submitted for a retesting procedure:
(1) Mold, Material or Production Technique Changes - If there are changes to a mold that has been producing an approved disc, the discs produced by the changed mold may have to be retested for approval. Not all such changes require approval. Retesting is only required if a mold includes the addition or removal of a new structural feature such as a bead, or results in a measurement that may violate any of the technical standards.

The requirements, procedures, schedule, and fees of the retesting procedure are identical to that of the initial testing procedure outlined above. If it is demonstrated that the disc in question does not meet the requirements for retesting there will be no fee due from the manufacturer.

I directed my question to the committee using the contact screen...

It says I will have an answer in a few days... I guess all the other TD's and players can send their request for an answer regarding the Warrior the same way...

Not that a Bulletin or Notice would be more efficient... I am sure Jeff Homburg really doesn't want an email from every concerned player and TD on the subject, but if that is the official way things get done.

I guess that is how it gets done.

Chuck,

It was a driver - it is now a midrange... your answer is a non-answer. How is a TD or an official - like myself - suppose to make a call based upon that information?

Jim Trotter
Springfield, IL

You go "Wow, that new Warrior certainly isn't like the one I've seen/thrown before. Probably should contact the PDGA to see whether there's a change that got approved." In the mean time, you pretty much have to allow the disc if the name marked on it is on the Approved list. You've done your job as an official or player.

hi Jim :)


how are you?

check you pm

OK, I am getting tired of everyone making a fuss over something so small like a re-tool. I don't see any of the stats from all of the re-toolings to every Innova or Discraft disc. What about the multitude of Rocs, Aviars, and such. It seems to me that people are just out to put Gateway away. I have had similar discussions with people here in Montana. Now, with that said, I do think that the updated specs should be sent in with the name change so they can be updated by the PDGA, but the company should not have to pay for a complete tech. spec. inspection. I remember the changes to the Beast and the Starfire not too long ago. Just leave the companies alone so they can continue to make discs. Get over it.

OK, I am getting tired of everyone making a fuss over something so small like a re-tool. I don't see any of the stats from all of the re-toolings to every Innova or Discraft disc. What about the multitude of Rocs, Aviars, and such. It seems to me that people are just out to put Gateway away. I have had similar discussions with people here in Montana. Now, with that said, I do think that the updated specs should be sent in with the name change so they can be updated by the PDGA, but the company should not have to pay for a complete tech. spec. inspection. I remember the changes to the Beast and the Starfire not too long ago. Just leave the companies alone so they can continue to make discs. Get over it.



Unfortunately you have way to many disc golfers who believe the disc makes the player, and since Innova and Discraft have all the world champions then everyone assumes its because their products made them better golfers. I think we'll see more respect for Gateway and all of Dave's products if Nikko can tear it up this season.

OK, I am getting tired of everyone making a fuss over something so small like a re-tool. I don't see any of the stats from all of the re-toolings to every Innova or Discraft disc. What about the multitude of Rocs, Aviars, and such. It seems to me that people are just out to put Gateway away. I have had similar discussions with people here in Montana. Now, with that said, I do think that the updated specs should be sent in with the name change so they can be updated by the PDGA, but the company should not have to pay for a complete tech. spec. inspection. I remember the changes to the Beast and the Starfire not too long ago. Just leave the companies alone so they can continue to make discs. Get over it.



Unfortunately you have way to many disc golfers who believe the disc makes the player, and since Innova and Discraft have all the world champions then everyone assumes its because their products made them better golfers. I think we'll see more respect for Gateway and all of Dave's products if Nikko can tear it up this season.



Don't forget Gateway's best player who actually throws ALL Gateway JohnE McCray...He beat Climo in a playoff last weekend for his 82nd open win and is rated 1034. He's playing some inspired golf this year, even compared to his usual high standard.

OK, I am getting tired of everyone making a fuss over something so small like a re-tool.



Not a single part of the mold is likely to be the same as the Warrior that was approved as a driver and the Warrior now being sold as a midrange - but that is "something so small like a re-tool?"

Perception is reality, I guess. It is a pretty sure bet if you can drive a truck through loopholes in the rules - the rules are bad.

Point me to a driver on ebay that was sold as a Roc or an Aviar and I will put a bid on it...

Although, that would explain some of the Bulletin Board Distances we read - somebody throws their Roc on 550' tunnel shots slightly uphill or 90' hyzer skips from their favorite Champion Roc...

Why else would somebody carry 15 Rocs around in their Revo Back-Pak if it wasn't because the mold variations take approved Rocs all the way from putter molds to wide-rim wicked fast driver molds?

You might be on to something there - that sounds like proof positive to me that Roc variations are the exact same situation as to what is currently being discussed in regard to the Warrior.

The re-tool issue is not about calling it the Warrior. The mold that was re-tooled was the Element X. Now, you claim that because Gateway changed the name from the Element X to the Warrior they should have to pay to have the disc mold re- certified. I understand the issue of calling the new mid-range the Warrior since the old Gateway Warrior was a Control Driver, but should they have to go through the re-evaluation procedure just because they changed the name of the disc? Imagine if you had a patent for a product, then changed its name after you patented it. Do you have to pay for a new patent because of a name change? No, you own the patent for the design, not the name. Since Gateway owns both the name and the design, they have the right to inform the PDGA of their changes and the PDGA has the duty to make modifications to their list of approved disc as long as the new disc conforms to the PDGA standards as stated by Chuck K.

I don't really see this as a bash on Gateway. It just so happens to be Gateway that (1) made a change to a mold of an approved disc- OK, (2)changed the name of that disc to the name of a different, also approved disc's name- confusing (3)didn't notify the PDGA of said change for 9 months?- not good/ already noted by Gateway. So, now it and the Voodoo isn't approved? Should be fixed pretty soon, as posted by Dave. I think any disc that's been available for any length of time that isn't approved would cause the same discussion. I know that if I had been playing with a disc for months, just now finding out it's "illegal", I would be pretty upset.
Not everybody is bashing Gateway.

The discs have only been available for approx. 4-5 months. I still say that according to PDGA tech. standards, the Warrior is a legal disc. Now the name change may be a different story, but how hard is it to update the disc list??? Dave should not have to pay to re-use an old name. Not really saying everyone is bashing, but it seems like some come out of the wood work to say something against Gateway and they rarely ever post on the Gateway Forum Topic but seem to frequent other disc company forums.

Some people just passionately hate David and all of Gateway. No matter what good he does for the sport, because he doesnt have the largest product selection and a 12x world champion he'll automatically be condemned by the disc golf community. Disc golfers dont really care for change and hate challenges to the status quo.

You wouldnt believe the crap I take for throwing a primarily Gateway bag. I've had people tell me how stupid, [censored] and retarded I am for throwing Gateway products and I'll ask if they've ever thrown them to which they respond 99% of the time "I dont need to throw them to know they all suck." I too, though, had the same mentality until I decided to try a few of his products exclusively for about a week and was hooked.

Some people just passionately hate David and all of Gateway. No matter what good he does for the sport, because he doesnt have the largest product selection and a 12x world champion he'll automatically be condemned by the disc golf community. Disc golfers dont really care for change and hate challenges to the status quo.

You wouldnt believe the crap I take for throwing a primarily Gateway bag. I've had people tell me how stupid, [censored] and retarded I am for throwing Gateway products and I'll ask if they've ever thrown them to which they respond 99% of the time "I dont need to throw them to know they all suck." I too, though, had the same mentality until I decided to try a few of his products exclusively for about a week and was hooked.



If you didn't throw all Gateway, people would find something else to give you crap about. ;)

The discs have only been available for approx. 4-5 months. I still say that according to PDGA tech. standards, the Warrior is a legal disc. Now the name change may be a different story, but how hard is it to update the disc list??? Dave should not have to pay to re-use an old name. Not really saying everyone is bashing, but it seems like some come out of the wood work to say something against Gateway and they rarely ever post on the Gateway Forum Topic but seem to frequent other disc company forums.



I think there are 2 separate issues. You are correct that within the pdga guidelines, Gateway can use the old Warrior name with any mold they prefer (in this case, the retooled ELX). The company is not required to re-submit it for testing. The question to me seems to be that if you have a change in the mold, why shouldn't the pdga make you re-submit it? Perhaps there should be no fee at all, or a small fee (that's probably a political/logistical decision), but it just doesn't make sense to me how a retooling of a mold shouldn't be resubmitted. This applies to all companies, not just Gateway (you'll find that the majority of the X/L molds from Innova aren't listed on the approved disc list, but the company doesn't brand most of those discs as X/L molds. ex: Gator, not the Gator-L or Gator-X).

Gateway has never been afraid to rock the boat (which is one of the reasons I feel the company does great things to progress the sport), but this particular issue, with people so polarized about the company, really sheds light on how ridiculous the approval process is.

Read the Tech Standards. Manufacturers are required to resubmit when they make mold changes under the same name. They may not have to pay a fee either.

(E) Retesting
There are several circumstances under which a disc that has been previously approved is required to be
submitted for a retesting procedure:
(1) Mold, Material or Production Technique Changes - If there are changes to a mold that has been
producing an approved disc, the discs produced by the changed mold may have to be retested for
approval. Not all such changes require approval. Retesting is only required if a mold includes the addition or
removal of a new structural feature such as a bead, or results in a measurement that may violate any of the
technical standards.

The requirements, procedures, schedule, and fees of the retesting procedure are identical to that of the
initial testing procedure outlined above. If it is demonstrated that the disc in question does not meet the
requirements for retesting there will be no fee due from the manufacturer.

So this issue with the Warrior having the same name isn't the 1st problem with this? I don't see a lot of the Innova X/L mold variations on that approved list.

I don't have any problem with Gateway. But to all the people that LOVE Gateway, don't you find it just a little upsetting that they have a good putter that you may have been using for several months, just to find out it's "illegal"? And I have no problem with retooling a disc or even changing it's name. But changing it to another previously approved disc's name is just confusing. What if Innova retooled the Roc (I know-already done) but then changed the name to Leopard? How about Discraft retooling the Wasp (I know- it's called a Buzzz) and called it a Talon? Would you be confused and/or just think that's stupid? Come on, Gateway is better than that. Hopefully, all of this will be fixed soon