I have a bigger issue with a toothless policy from the pdga.

I have a bigger issue with a toothless policy from the pdga.



I hear'ya there brother!

To the previous post. Sure, it's a little disappointing that the Voodoo is not approved yet. That will be taken care of very soon.

I don't have any issue with using a good disc name for another good disc. It's the PDGA process that makes it difficult ... because EVERYONE knows that the new warrior is a different disc ... It's very simple for the player ... it's not simple for the PDGA.
Maybe there needs to be a better way to designate an approved disc? Maybe a model number, instead of by name?

model number on each part of the mold seems to make sense...

can someone explain how we wound up approving names to begin with instead of something more substantive? (chuck? dave?)

Before my time.

Maybe we should go back to that time.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_hvW0K-nBVMI/SNGX3251DJI/AAAAAAAAANo/pG3qs1s8jLk/s400/flogging-dead-horse.jpg

Dave Where's DAAAAAAAAVVVVVVVVEEEEEE

By bgraham | Mar 26, 2009 | Tags: Gateway Voodoo
Tech Standards Alert - Gateway Voodoo

As of 3/26/09, the new "Voodoo" putter by Gateway Disc Sports has not been approved by the PDGA for use in sanctioned events, despite the words "PDGA Approved Golf Disc" in the hotstamp. The Voodoo was recently submitted to the technical standards committee and will be tested as soon as the testing fees have been received by the office. Use of the Voodoo in PDGA competitions is prohibited until the disc has received official certification from the PDGA.

PDGA Approved Discs & Targets: http://www.pdga.com/tech-standards

So....I guess the Voodoo is a no go this weekend. Hopefully this silliness will be resolved by next weekend because I'm playing.

How did the Apex turn out?

The facts are we just forgot about the sending in the fee.
The fee for the Voodoo is in the mail and I'm sure it will be approved soon.
We are a very small company and sometimes it takes a squeaky wheel for me to get out the oil!!

I apologize if our error has caused or is causing players or TD's a problem.
It should be approved by next weekend!


[QUOTE]

Gateway has never been afraid to rock the boat (which is one of the reasons I feel the company does great things to progress the sport), but this particular issue, with people so polarized about the company, really sheds light on how ridiculous the approval process is.





(THANKS CHRIS for making this point)
Now we are getting to the crux of a problem.


Lets say there is a player with all custom stamped discs in his bag and he wants his discs checked to make sure he's using ALL pdga approved discs!
or maybe another player wants this guiys discs checked,, either way,, whats the procedure???

So you have a stack of custom stamped discs and a list supplied by the pdga and a willing TD ( even though there is no actual rule stating he must check the discs) But lets say he is willing to give it a go.

How would he check to make sure each disc is the disc on the list?
would he need any measuring devices?
like a a scale or caliper.
Are there drawings he could use?

I know SOME TD's and players could tell you just about every disc ever made by looking at it but I don't think MOST TD's or players could do this.

A stack of discs and a list is how we check to make sure all discs used in events are within the rules?
surely we need a better plan and procedure,,, don't we???




Now that one players discs are checked wouldn't that player want everyone's discs checked?
Is it fair to only check one players discs?



Whats coming form all this now,,, is that people should be aware that there are a set of rules discs must pass to be approved but no set of rules for checking them at events.

If a disc starts out with a 5% rim depth and after so much play it is worn down to 4% ( which is now outside of the rules) should this disc be able to be used?

A discs could be factored down in 2 minutes to 4% rim depth to make it faster,, who can tell the difference between actual wear and factoring?
Both discs are under the limit, should they be able to be used?

Today there are 7 or 8 disc manufactures who's discs are used in pdga events and we all do our best to make sure we are conforming to the rules.
From time to time some discs will still get out from all companies that are TOO firm, Too heavy, or Too small due to processing and human error.
I certainly cant personally check every single disc we make.

Whats going to happen when there are 30 disc companies and some of them are making discs outside of the pdga rules because they are finding out they can make discs go farther and that there is still a demand for these discs even though they are not pdga approved???

believe me when I say this is going to happen and it will happen really soon. About 95% of all discs produced will NEVER be used in a pdga event. If a disc is eventually made that goes far or is really straight that winds up outside of our rules 95% of the players would care less and will buy and use a non pdga approved disc.
at some pint this discs that are actually outside of the rules will wind up being used by players in events.
again, trustr me when I say this is going to happen one day.
when this day comes shouldnt we be prepared for it with, rules, procedures, protocols, measuring templates,,, SOMETHING???

I think if its important to make rules for the discs used in play that we should start thinking about how we are going to be able to make sure the discs that ARE used are within the rules.


I'll pose a simple question for competitive players:

Would you rather play against a guy with all of his discs within the rules set forth but not on a list or against a guy with discs that are all on the list but outside of the rules,,,too heavy, too stiff, too small diameter, too sharp of nose radius and too small of rim depth??


BTW,,
2 wrongs never make a right but I heard Innova released the SL and didn't send it in for PDGA approval for quite sometime.
Not sure why this happened but I'm told that it did!
I don't remember hearing all the negativity about it, in fact i don't think I heard much about it all!
To me it didn't seem like a big deal and no one made a big deal about it either!

Would you rather play against a guy with all of his discs within the rules set forth but not on a list or against a guy with discs that are all on the list but outside of the rules,,,too heavy, too stiff, too small diameter, too sharp of nose radius and too small of rim depth??




The thought of someone telling me that I couldn't putt with my Voodoo in the tourney next weekend definetely had my mind imagining this scenario. I was ready to bring my digital scale and demand the same enforcement of the rules that was forcing me to switch putters be applied to everyone and all rules. I also think that the PDGA knew this and it is why they did not make a stink about this until a couple of players realized it. Many times I've bought 5 of the newest driver, threw them all in the field, only to later discover that the one that kicked butt for headwinds weighed 178g...and I own a scale. How many competitors never putt their discs on a scale? How many of their headwind drivers are overweight? I also know pros that prefer stiff discs and have a whole bag that would fail the rigidity test (this is worse than the weight issue b/c its impossible for a player to measure). Dave is right in that we have some issues to deal with as an organization.

Is there a way to rush the progress before BG Ams?? I am so use to the Voodoo that I cant see myself going back to the Warlock.

Homburg has the discs ready for testing as soon as the PDGA office says the check has been received and deposited. So the forecast looks good for BG Ams.

Sweet!!! Thanks!!!

That would be nice to see it Okayed by next weekend FDR Fools Fest is that weekend that I am going to

Here, here Dave!!! My beliefe is that you should be able to throw any disc even if it has not received the "PDGA stamp of approval" as long as it conforms to the PDGA standards. How do players test a disc if they are not allowed to throw it in tournaments? To pay for a disc that may not live up to the standards of the company is just stupid, not to mention that if you decide to modify it, you may have to repay to use the mold. I need a few Apex drivers!!! lol.

i got a SSS wizard today that i won off of ebay that is firm. i was hoping it was a little softer than my SS wizard.

just carry it in your trousers, warm it up!

i got a SSS wizard today that i won off of ebay that is firm. i was hoping it was a little softer than my SS wizard.


Throw it in the dishwasher or Washing machine

David, a question and a request...

Will you be bringing to the BG Ams the Apex prototype to sell??

And can you bring some E Illusion QC's?? I need to get a few because my other one is starting to get flippy.

If its marked sss its probably really soft on the surface but if its not as flexible as you like, you can get it a little more flexible by working it in a bit around the rim. Dont be afraid to do this as it wont lose its shape, the plastic we use has a lot of memory and will spring right back!

We use santoprene rubber its some of the most resilient rubber made!!!

We should have some of the proto types, but the name Apex is apparently too close to APX and Jim K at Discraft asked me politely if I could find another name.

Were thinking SAVAGE,,, how does that sound?

thanks david. i thought about putting it in the dishwasher but thought it might get warped too bad.

Dave,
I think savage is a solid name.

What does the qc stand for on the illusion? My qc illusions are as overstable as my other illusions.

Have you guys gotten a chance to do any medium or soft wizards yet?

Keep up the great work and thanks for the updates

Savage sounds cool, but what about Ravage as well?? Maybe when your next driver comes out you could name it that to compliment the Savage??

They did run Ms. I talked to Justin yesterday.

I have a shipment of all flexes of Wizards arriving tomorrow.

The new "Voodoo" putter by Gateway Disc Sports was approved by the PDGA for use in sanctioned events on March 31, 2009.

are the new infernos as understable as the originals? i am considering trying them again .

I still vote for some re-issued Chief stamped Wizards!

I need some help determining which version of the Wizard I have...

I assume the disc is a Wizard because it wasn't stamped with anything but a poorboy stamp and I got it for free without even ordering it.

On the back it says "Soft" in Sharpie. However, I also have a Super Soft Wizard that I ordered and it doesn't have nearly as much flex or grip of the one that is labeled "Soft." I've asked people to blindly grip and flex each disc and everyone says that the one marked "Soft" is softer and more flexible than the super soft.

I also have a Clear Evo Wizard that is way more flexible than either of the discs. It reminds me of a Champion Aero. When warm they're both like goo.

That's beside the point but basically I'm positive the disc I got for free is a Wizard...I just don't know how soft it is. I doubt I'll ever lose it but as one of my primary putters it will eventually get worn out.

The plastic kind of had a powdery peeling effect going on around the edges when the disc was brand new. It's not as noticeable now.

Thanks for any info/help.

This is why I almost always feel a disc before I buy it, especially putters, especially Gateway. Dave M. knows exactly where a medium ends and a soft begins, and a soft ends and a SS begins, and so on, but the factory workers that print the numbers on the back sometimes are not so accurate. If I didn't have access to a good selection of Gateway to pick through I'd probably talk to the guy at the shop to get exactly what I want.

Brian, Dave, and others,
Gateway Disc Sports submitted the Voodoo for PDGA testing. This disc passed all PDGA tests, so I've added it to the list of PDGA-approved discs. This disc is now permitted in PDGA competition, although formal certification will be made by the Board of Directors at their next meeting. Test measurements are listed below and a photograph of the disc and an updated list of approved discs are attached.





Voodoo

Certification No. 09-10

PDGA fee: $300

Outside diameter: 21.1 cm

Inside rim diameter: 19.1 cm

Height: 2.1 cm

Rim depth: 1.6 cm

Rim thickness: 1.0 cm

Flight plate thickness: 0.2 cm

Flight plate to rim plane distance: 1.9 cm

Flexibility rating: 3.52 kg

Rim configuration rating: 62.00


Maximum weight allowed: 175.3 g

This is why I almost always feel a disc before I buy it, especially putters, especially Gateway. Dave M. knows exactly where a medium ends and a soft begins, and a soft ends and a SS begins, and so on, but the factory workers that print the numbers on the back sometimes are not so accurate. If I didn't have access to a good selection of Gateway to pick through I'd probably talk to the guy at the shop to get exactly what I want.



from time to time a disc will get marked based on the formula which is always pretty accurate to the surface softness ( or hardness).
Due to a range of processing ( lightly packed or REALLY packed out) flexibility can very.

We are working hard to get our discs in more brick and mortar stores so that people can do just what you are saying,,, get in front of a big box of our putters and your sure to find one that you really like.
the good thing about our models and flexes is that the flexes don't really change the flight within each particular model, but softer and more flexible versions will certainly wear in a bit faster!!

anyone that knows of a store or club that sells discs that does not carry Gateway,,,, feel free to forward their information along to [email protected] or direct them to our website!

Hey Dave, what is the 411 on the driver formerly known as "APEX"? How about the plans for the other drivers and mids you plan to release this season. What type of stabilities and speeds are we looking for? Any plans for a really slow turnover putter, similar to the Whitler?

I threw the new driver yesterday at club tags.

Definitely got everyone's attention.

In very light wind, it flew true to Davids description. Beast/Wraith like flight path. Very good distance and very good glide and didn't require a big arm to do so. Me likie.

We ran the NEW Driver with a different top ( sharper nose radius) on Monday and seem to have the less overstable version we were actually looking for.
With the new small bead on the wing, the resistance to turn really helped with this version and I really liked the flight. easier to pop up from Hyzer which is my preferred style and less fade. Probably not as good into a strong head wind but still performed well into a head wind and glided forever with the wind.
**
Before we added the small bead, this tighter nosed version flipped straight to the right and rolled when throw with power.
Great for players who can only throw 200 feet, but not so good for everyone else unless you are looking for a roller.
**
The name Savage is perfect for the slightly overstable version, but now we need another name of the this straighter/stable model. I'm still liking Apex, but also considering bring back the name Apache for this one, as it flies like a Flatter, Faster, longer winged Apache,, any thoughts???

New Name!

I sent you a LONG list of names a few months back. I need to think what was on that list...

Since it is supposed to be a larger winged assassin (I think I have not seen it **hint, hint** LOL) I tried to stay with that theme:

Knight
Ronin
Samurai
Cavalier
Commando
Ranger
Legionnaire

I like going to the warrior class driver names.

Samurai, Ninja, and so on. Glad the disc came out less stable...it should make for a better long turnover driver if thrown right.

I like going to the warrior class driver names.

Samurai, Ninja, and so on. Glad the disc came out less stable...it should make for a better long turnover driver if thrown right.



I like these names, but it made me think of an even better one--the Katana. It is a straight sword and kind of like a longer Sabre...

I like going to the warrior class driver names.

Samurai, Ninja, and so on. Glad the disc came out less stable...it should make for a better long turnover driver if thrown right.



I like these names, but it made me think of an even better one--the Katana. It is a straight sword and kind of like a longer Sabre...



I really like Katana that sounds and seems perfect.
When is a projected time that such discs will begin being produced.
I am really interested.
Beast is probably my farthest discs however, i have been trying to throw almost exclusively Gateway so i have been throwing a Sabre but, i cant always get the same distance.

The Stiletto snaps out and "heels" at the basket.

You just can't help yourself, can you, Chuck?

These 2 drivers surely help bridge the gap between the Sabre and Illusion not only in flight but in wing size.

We are going with the name Apache for the stable/understable model and Savage for the beefier one.
Its looking like the Savage is more of a headwind driver and the Apache for tailwind, though either can work for both depending on your power.
Under 250 the Apache is still a little overstable and if you have 350 power you can still turn the Savage.
They both have great control, a decent amount of speed and of course the Apache has a little Longer glide because its less stable.


I'm gonna need a little more time with them to get the actual speed, glide, turn fade numbers but they should be right in the beast/orc/wraith range!
If the discs would have a slight concave on the wing as opposed to a very small bead,,,, the Apache would look identical to a Champ Wraith only with a slightly smaller wing length!
*
*
I like the name Katana too and have it it on the table quite a few times (sounds like a longer winged discs to me).
Plans are already under way for a longer winged under stable driver and most like we will eventually have some different shapes for the wing on these,,, so dont be afraid to keep the names coming,,,

we are in production now and should be releasing them on the Auto ship Program this week.

I may be paranoid and I'm certainly no Native American...but I can imagine if disc golf ever gets big and you guys are making big $ off discs that the names Savage and Apache may be called into question for their political correctness. :p

Washington Redskins?

I would like a scalp please!!

Especially when used for tomahawk shots...

Well....I am only 1/16 Cherokee and I don't care one way or the other. As an anthropologist, I can say that some people believe they need to be apologetic or politically correct...I am one of those that don't have a position because I am a cultural relativist. Oh, and no I don't drive a Cherokee.

I see your point but,,,,,
Personally I would NEVER equate Savage with American Indians,, why would I??
The name Savage and our use of Apache is merely a coincidence. When someone sent me the name Savage, I thought wild Animals,,, not people.

Although Ive been told I eat like a Savage!

Here's a link to the definition where I see no mention of anything American Indian. ( guns, Games, cities, bowling balls, etc..)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savage.


We have a whole lot of Indian Blood on both sides of our family, Its probably one of the reasons I like the Indian sounding Names( Chief, warrior, Scout and Apache),,,

I'll had more time to test the 2 new discs.
*
*
I played 2 rounds this weekend, one on Ozark Mountain and one on Akita's Run using the Apache for all the shots I would have used the Illusion, Sabre or Assassin. Not quite the D as the Baby blue Illusions for me, but similar glide and speed. ( that run of Baby Blue Illusions is freakishly long). It was noticeably faster than a Sabre or Assassin, but similar control for golf style shots.
The Apache has more resistance to turn than the Assassins and since its molded in the Evolution HPP ( new clear stuff) it came away from the mountain without a scratch and I hit plenty of rocks and trees!
The disc is certainly more stable than I had originally thought and did quite well even into a headwind.
I was able to throw the disc flat with a lot of power for all the tunnel shots out there without it flipping on me and could throw it as a Hyzer flip up disc too, but needed just about full power to get it to turn some and most of the time it would still finish left if given enough time.
It would hold a nice LONG left to right when turned over out of the hand for me and will make a nice S shot disc for a player with 300 or so power!
Carl Nichols III who is 13 was able to get a little more d out of it than with his star Orc throwing it this way, but in all they are quite similar discs, especially at his power.

A few times when I tried a long left to right and didnt get on it enough or had it too nose up it hyzered off but never as far left as I thought.
I will probably need a stack of them and an open field to see how far they will actually fly for me, but I was able to get them out well over 400 on very tight glf shot lines with just a little turn and a little fade.


The Apache was working so well ( even into mild headwinds) that the Savage didn't get any work out off the tee but I threw it for several sidearm shots and a few Spike hyzer layups where I may have used a Spirit and it performed with predictability .
I'm going to need a field for more results for both discs.
The stability of the 2 seemed to work well together for discs of that speed and wing length!

Although Ive been told I eat like a Savage!



I can confirm this...you should see Dave chow down some Taco Bell :D

Not so sure on the reuse of the apache...but like the name Savage. Will these two disc's be ran in the normal "E" or the "CE"? I am guessing normal "E"...but would like to hear your take on it.

Lemme know when these new discs get approved. I will be throwing them for sure. I already really like the Savage.

That is a little more stable than I was hoping for. That puts the stability a little more stable than the Diablo DT. I would like to see a driver come out that is more understable like the Assassin for ultra long turnovers. It is easier to throw less stable plastic at higher elevation than the discs that you would throw at or near sea level.

sounds like the Apache

That is a little more stable than I was hoping for. That puts the stability a little more stable than the Diablo DT. I would like to see a driver come out that is more understable like the Assassin for ultra long turnovers. It is easier to throw less stable plastic at higher elevation than the discs that you would throw at or near sea level.



I've been throwing a new Apache prototype. I live above 6500 ft here in Carbondale, the course is higher. I haven't had any problem getting a -2 HSS out of the disc. It flies like a Beast would for me.

Hopefully they do have that flight path. Are they as easy to control as the Assassins? I like the slow turn of the Assassins because they go long without a lot of fade.

Brian, David, and others,
Gateway submitted the Savage and Apache (retooled) PDGA testing. Both discs passed all PDGA tests, so I've added them to the list of PDGA-approved discs. These discs are now permitted in PDGA competition, although formal certification will be made by the Board of Directors at their next meeting. Test measurements are listed below and a photograph of the disc and an updated list of approved discs are attached.





Savage


Certification No. 09-14

PDGA fee: $300 (new model)


Outside diameter: 21.3 cm

Inside rim diameter: 17.4 cm

Height: 1.8 cm

Rim depth: 1.2 cm

Rim thickness: 1.9 cm

Flight plate thickness: 0.2 cm

Flight plate to rim plane distance: 1.6 cm

Flexibility rating: 5.33 kg

Rim configuration rating: 30.00


Maximum weight allowed: 176.8 g




Apache (retooled)


Certification No. 09-15


PDGA fee: $100 (retooled, Apache variant)


Outside diameter: 21.3 cm

Inside rim diameter: 17.4 cm

Height: 1.8 cm

Rim depth: 1.2 cm

Rim thickness: 1.9 cm

Flight plate thickness: 0.2 cm

Flight plate to rim plane distance: 1.6 cm

Flexibility rating: 4.76 kg

Rim configuration rating: 28.50


Maximum weight allowed: 176.8 g




DISContinuously,
Jeff Homburg (#1025)

PDGA Technical Standards Chair

David, wanting to know about a certain run of Illusions. The guy who has them says they're either black or smokey grey, and describes them as $$$$. Do these fly particularly different than most Illusions??

Sounds like S illusions we have had VERY FEW E that are black or grey!

The guy finally got back to me and says they are a pearly E black. Told me they fly in between a reg. Illusion and a 1st run BB. Is this from an experimental run if that's how they are supposed to fly??

The guy finally got back to me and says they are a pearly E black. Told me they fly in between a reg. Illusion and a 1st run BB. Is this from an experimental run if that's how they are supposed to fly??



The black/smoke pearly illusions were from about 4 years ago. I have a few in the closet still. By any chance, were you talking to TJ Nydle about them? These were by far my favorite run of illusions.

yep they are from me, and yes Joe they are the ones I got from you, pearl blacks

Hey dave (or affiliates),

I was wondering which gateway putters have similiar flight characteristics to a dx aviar (if you've thrown one lately). You gave me some awesome sponsorship when i was 13 years old and have gotten back into the sport. Gateway didn't have any putters then so I'd like your opinion. I was considerin the warlock or possibly the wizard. Stu who sells at my home course now doesnt have any warlocs and i'm real hard on cash so Just wanted ur opinion before I experiment. Thanks

In feel, the Warlock. In flight, the Voodoo. At least from my experience.

In feel, the Warlock. In flight, the Voodoo. At least from my experience.



Echoing what the Dude said. Do yourself a favor and get yourself a voodoo.

In feel, the Warlock. In flight, the Voodoo. At least from my experience.



Echoing what the Dude said. Do yourself a favor and get yourself a voodoo.



I love Aviar P&A's. I love the Voodoo as much or more. I always have a Voodoo -- and Wizard in my bag now.

In feel, the Warlock. In flight, the Voodoo. At least from my experience.



Echoing what the Dude said. Do yourself a favor and get yourself a voodoo.



I love Aviar P&A's. I love the Voodoo as much or more. I always have a Voodoo -- and Wizard in my bag now.



Having a Wizard and Voodoo in your bag is the best putter combination anyone can have!

Dave, what is the wing like on the apache? similar to the size of the wing on the savage?

Thanks for the input guys but the voodoo is nothing like the aviar in my opinion. A good friend let me try a stupid super soft warlock which felt like a aviar but flew like a way understable one. Wish I could have gotten the other Daves opinion but thannks anyways....

Warlock? Understable? Was it beat in?? My SS Warlock I had for over a year was still just as stable as when I bought it.

Warlock like a understable Aviar????? WHAA musta been beat cuz mine that I have been using for 2 years now is just getting beat to understable. I think the VooDoo flies like a fast aviar with out the float IMO any way Warlock is closer to the aviar in feel shape and flight

Dave, what is the wing like on the apache? similar to the size of the wing on the savage?



The apaches wing is pretty much spot on for the savage.

Hey "Doc", I'm sorry but I have to agree with the guys here. The Warlock replaced several Aviars in our club because it was faster and slightly more stable than the Aviar. The Warlock you threw had to have been beat to heck. The Voodoo in my opinion flies much closer to the Aviar during the HS portion of the flight.

Dave, what is the wing like on the apache? similar to the size of the wing on the savage?



The apaches wing is pretty much spot on for the savage.



speed pretty much the same?

Pretty much. The Savage might be a slight bit slower because of the bulkier nose, but they are pretty similar in speed.

So how is everyone liking the Apache? Did you get to throw the new version that Dave said was less stable? More curious about the newer version.

Dave, do you have a fair amount of bags in stock at the store? One of the loops on my current bag ripped this morning, so one arm of my quad shocks are useless. I plan on hitting JB tomorrow morning at 9, and wanted to stop in and pick up a bag because I've gotta have something for the stl open this weekend. Do you still give a discount to RCF members? Thanks a lot.

I'd like to apologize for comments I made in the past concerning the plastic used for Wizards/other Gateway putters. I made certain complaints that they always lost their chalkiness and started to feel like just a chunk of hard plastic after a very short time. Today, after playing in some wet springtime conditions with my Pro-D Challengers.... they developed the same feel.

Clearly it is nothing specific to do with your Gateway Plastic, it has something to do with the way weather in the springtime around here effects discs. I had never thrown the Pro D in the spring before, and it developed the same feel. I'm not sure what it is, but its clear that it is not an issue with your plastic specifically. I'm sorry about my past comments, I was definitely wrong.


-Chris.

Chris,
We typically have about 30 putters lying in the back yard of my house at any one time.
They lay on the ground or in a basket for months and months.

When we have people (well disc golfers) stay at our house,,, they usually ask if they can have one or 2 as they get a lot of use and are a little worn in.

Most of these discs do fade in color and may change a bit in surface complexion, some feeling better, but then again everyone likes a little something different.
This is an extreme case of aging a disc as most player keep their discs in their bags, a box or trunk instead of exposing them to 24 hours a day of the weather Elements.

I Am still surprised to hear a stored discs' changes over time would be anymore then,,,,, more flexible.

As Ive mentioned I would love to check out the discs, just to see what your talking about.
if you want to send us back a few discs I would be willing to send you out a few new ones for you!

Dave,

Went out to the park tonight to throw the apache and savage a little more. These are both great frisbees that will complement your line very well. I think (hope) the apache will be a hit with amateur players. It goes really straight and doesn't require a whole lot of power. I know I'll be throwing both!

Kevin

Hey Kevin, when you're in BG send me a message on Facebook. I'd like to try the Apache if you'll let me.

Ketley and I will be up there friday afternoon. I'm not sure if we'll have time for golf though.

I just got an Apache and Savage. Very nice discs. They are LONNNGGGGG.....

now, when are they going to come out in non-gummy plastic?

I have some non-gummy Apaches that I do believe that they are working on. I picked them up from the store when I was in town for the St. Louis Open. They are very nice! ; )

So, if they are happy with the results maybe soon?

Dave said they sent the autoship discs out and that they should be for sale in a few days online.

The autoship ones to my knowledge are the more gummy ones. I saw the boxes that were labeled as such and that is what was in them. They ran a small batch of the more traditional E plastic for the Apache...

We have been running some firmer E Apaches and E savages combing the exiting gummy urethane with a firmer urethane ( not using the H like we do evolution pro-line).

Some of the Savages in the AS program were sent out using the firmer materials and this week we ran more of the same in the Apaches.
The thing is when you combine 2 materials you can only get opaque discs at best.
all of the runs of Apaches are LONG, VERY similar in flight to the 1st run infernos that I personally went to Chicago and ran for quest.
Think inferno with a small bead, which gives them more resistance to turn but similar speed and that late flight glide that made in infernos go so far.

With such a high demand on clear and translucent discs we will need to evaluate how well the current more flexible urethane is being received.
we have had a lot of compliments and are basically selling the discs as fast as we are making them, especially the clear putters and the Elements and Warriors.
This specific polymer we have been using is EXTREMELY durable and has such a great grip.
I really like the way it feels when combines with other firmer materials, but unfortunately we cant produce clear discs this way.

Each individual polymer will have trade offs in flex and surface feel not too mention shrinkage and weight.
Finding JUST one polymer alone that does well in the various geometric shapes from our putters to mid-range and drivers is a tall task to say the least.

I would really like to keep our line down to just 2 polymers S and E ( hpp) but if there is a great demand for stiffer discs ( which it appears there is) we will at least start running some in a few of our models.

If you have a favorite retailer that is not on the auto ship program and you would like to get your discs from there,,, have them contact us to get set up!

I can't wait for those new opaque Apaches!!!!! I'll slaughter my rating. LOL

OOOOOOOO I cant wait to throw those new drivers!!! I miss those inferno's.

...... I threw the Savage and the Apache yesterday. I took three of each and went out to a field. For about two hours I threw all six one after the other.

The opaque e savages were more sensitive to power and snap. When I threw them flat they would rise up flip a touch and ride. At about the 400 ft mark they slowly turn back and eventualy fall.

The Clear Savages seemed to take more power. They were a bit more overstable and did not have the same glide.

All in all If you dont like Illusions for your "Golf Distance" this disc will be great and easy to control.


The Apache may instantly go in the practice bag. I used to throw Exclusivly Discraft discs and was missing the Z tracker Z Avenger line up in my bag. The Apache will hopefully fill that void next to my Sabers.

The disc was overstable, but not meat hook overstable. Think nice, pretty, perfect hyzer glide. The kind of hyzer that you kind rely on!

I will take them out today for some more practice.

I haven't had much work with the most recent runs of Savages,, are the Opaque savages you have white-ish with red swirls?

We have 2 more tops we ccould use for the new wing ( the Hybrid and Demon).
We did used the hybrid top for some of the early prototypes but we couldnt get any over 160 Grams in the clear, but even at 160 they were faster and a bit beefier than the current Apaches.

Not sure who would like or need a demon top on this new wing but it would be cool to run a few just to see how they fly!!!

I'm thinking about a convexed wing ( illusion/roadrunner-ish) of the same length so that we can have a really under-stable driver with the Apache top.
All the tweaking with the Apaches has it flying well but it is still a bit overstable for some new players!

I really like the radius where the rim meets the flight plate!

Dave, I just got a Baby Blue E Illusion
On the top it says
"Evolution Pro-Line
Illusion by Gateway" in red
On the bottom it says
176 E IL

It looks to be realitively unthrown, and I have not thrown it yet. The question I have is the dome is huge and almost a square dome that is really defined is this how they are supposed to be? I have never seen a dome that was almost square. The plastic is really hard and slick. How is this disc supposed to fly in regards of stability?

[QUOTE=gdstour;1377588]I haven't had much work with the most recent runs of Savages,, are the Opaque savages you have white-ish with red swirls?

We have 2 more tops we ccould use for the new wing ( the Hybrid and Demon).
We did used the hybrid top for some of the early prototypes but we couldnt get any over 160 Grams in the clear, but even at 160 they were faster and a bit beefier than the current Apaches.

Not sure who would like or need a demon top on this new wing but it would be cool to run a few just to see how they fly!!!

I'm thinking about a convexed wing ( illusion/roadrunner-ish) of the same length so that we can have a really under-stable driver with the Apache top.
All the tweaking with the Apaches has it flying well but it is still a bit overstable for some new players!

I really like the radius where the rim meets the flight plate![/QUOTE


My Saveges are yellow. I like the disc alot, if my stack of BB ILL's it could take over.

As far as the Apche...... this thing is great!!!! I like the overstable flight because of the glide if that makes any sense. We have some strong winds today so after a little surf i will throw them some more

Hey, I picked up an x-out type Assassin because I had heard that it was a longer, understable driver like a long TL or Eagle-L. Is that supposed to be what the Assassin is? Because I would be more than happy to buy a couple more to find a less stable one, but the one I picked up sort of reminds me of a TeeRex, more stable and faster than what I was told. I'm not sure if it could be because it's an x-out, or if I just thought the disc is something different than it is... let me know, if it's like a longer TL I'd definitely like to get a couple more and work it into my bag. This one I have though... let me just say it's going on the "used discs" shelf haha. Too stable for me!

Also a couple more questions for you David, or anybody who wants to give me their opinion is great. I'm sure these "disc conversion" questions have been asked a million times, but I don't really want to read all the way back to find out... sorry for repeats, if so.

I'm looking to throw more Gateway because I like the plastic types and think running with the "little guy" is a cool concept... so what could possible replace these drivers:

Teebird
Surge SS
Roadrunner
Leopard

I am pretty familiar with the Gateway mids and putters and have been working your versions into my bag... good stuff.

Well the Sabre is like a mix between the TeeBird and Leopard so that covers both discs. Roadrunner, you could use a beat E Assassin (they are supposed to be understable), and as for the Surge SS, maybe the Diablo DT. I havent had much experience with the Surge SS so it's just a guesstimation.

Hey, I picked up an x-out type Assassin because I had heard that it was a longer, understable driver like a long TL or Eagle-L. Is that supposed to be what the Assassin is? Because I would be more than happy to buy a couple more to find a less stable one, but the one I picked up sort of reminds me of a TeeRex, more stable and faster than what I was told. I'm not sure if it could be because it's an x-out, or if I just thought the disc is something different than it is... let me know, if it's like a longer TL I'd definitely like to get a couple more and work it into my bag. This one I have though... let me just say it's going on the "used discs" shelf haha. Too stable for me!

Also a couple more questions for you David, or anybody who wants to give me their opinion is great. I'm sure these "disc conversion" questions have been asked a million times, but I don't really want to read all the way back to find out... sorry for repeats, if so.

I'm looking to throw more Gateway because I like the plastic types and think running with the "little guy" is a cool concept... so what could possible replace these drivers:

Teebird
Surge SS
Roadrunner
Leopard

I am pretty familiar with the Gateway mids and putters and have been working your versions into my bag... good stuff.

What is the color and weight? Some of the Assassins in certain colors came out really stable while others came out perfectly understable. I have a yellow 174 that is a gram heavier than my 173 peach Assassin. The peach has a sweet slightly understable flight while the yellow has an overstable flight closer to my Illusion. The reds are really understable. This is probably due to the different melting points of the colors and how they migrate when injected into the molds. Don't give up on the Assassin they are longer than the Teebirds in my opinion. The Diablo DT is a little more stable and much faster but does not have the glide and I actually lose D with them on flat land. The Diablo DT is similar to a Wraith or Teerex. The new Apache is supposed to be that sweet in between similar to the Surge SS. Gateway also has a few understable drivers planned so watch out for those.

P.S. What does it say on the bottom of the disc??? Where did you get it from? It could be a mis-stamped disc that says Assassin but could be a totally different disc.

anyone checked out quest's new plastic? is the inferno in this plastic like the original (understable)?

Stay away!!!

The inferno in premier plastic is of what seems to be a completely different mold and is far from understable. The disc itself has a shallower rim and is less domey.

I think that there was some discussion to this point on the "Ask Gateway" thread from about 6-9 months back. Enter "Inferno; Re-tooled?" in the tread search.

Threw the new S Apache out in the field today and this disc is dead nuts straight. It flies exactly like a Striker, and feels great in the hand. I'll probably try the Clear E Apache tomorrow, but I'm def. liking the S version. I just cant find a place for it in my bag.

There's S Apaches? Are there S Savages? That would be killer!

Hey Dave, how are the production opaque Apaches coming? When do you expect to put out the more understable driver? I need to get a couple Apaches soon.

There's S Apaches? Are there S Savages? That would be killer!

Well I'm borrowing it from Shawn Sinclair so maybe the team members got some protos?? He said though if I liked it to call Dave and order them so I guess I can safely assume they're on sell.

EDIT: Found out it is actually just regular E plastic. I guess SS accidentally told me S plastic, but it does feel firm like S plastic, and not slick at all so that was probably the reason why.

JD,
I'm guessing the color of the disc your talking about is yellow orange, is so its E!

All of the S Apaches are red except a few 150 class were ran in white.

Well the one I was using was Red I believe, but found out it was E plastic when the other one he had which was also Red was marked E plastic in the rim. Shawn had a Clear E one but I didnt throw it. He said the CE was really understable, but he was right about the reg. E Apache. No matter how hard you throw it the disc will go straight! That's what was awesome about it because I was worried it fly, then turn and burn like a Sidewinder or Roadrunner, but it's very Striker-ish. The Apache is definitely a great addition to the Gateway lineup!

There was one prototype run of E Apaches that had a little bit of S in them most 1/2 were red the other 1/2 off white. This is probably what you have and why you thought they were S.
They were the only RED that would be considered E all other red would be S!

Dave-

Someone mentioned to me Nikko was planning on playing the Greater Peoria Open. I haven't seen his registration and we are just about full (3 spots left).

I just wanted to give you the heads up and see if you could pass that info along.

Thanks and have a nice day,

Dana

We just got back from testing the latest run of E-pro-line Illusions:

This run is Evolution Pro-line ( not Evolution HPP),,,, all of them were milky white ( well,,,, low fat :) ). They have a really nice surface feel and a decent amount of flexibility in the flight plate. The rims are pretty solid and there is just the right amount of dome for the stability we were looking for.
These were a tad bit less HS stable than the long flying Baby blues but were producing similar "late flight penetration" (LSS) that made the blues go so far.


Personally I would prefer a firmer disc and more High speed stability for my own game, but the feel and flight performance is pretty much just what we were looking for.
THEY ARE HUGE!!!!!!!!!!!

We also retooled the Speed demon, making the wing Straight as opposed to concave like the spirit ( it was just too close to the Spirit in flight for 96% of the players).
I ran about 100 of them working on some formulas for weight and shape and should get them in production within a week or so.
I threw a few shots outside the factory yesterday morning and initial results were showing a less overstable but slightly faster disc than before.
We left a texture on the surface of the wing ( like the Illusions but more defined) to reduce drag and it really seemed to help.
I'll need a few more shots with them to give an accurate report, but I really liked the stability when thrown slight turned out of the hand as they seemed to hold and HOLD before coming out and fading slowly at the end of the flight!

The Illusion's sound sweet!!! Are they in between the 1st Run BB's and QC's flight wise??

I'm not exactly sure,,,, as the QC ( quick cooled) Illusions were typically just about the same stability as the baby blues and at times even less stable.
After a round yesterday where Chris boro and a local am player were using them I'd say they quite similar to baby blues in flight just not quite as firm in feel.

That may be an accurate description.

I watched 2 guys use them all day yesterday at fairly long course.
They seemed to be able to be flipped up flat from Hyzer when throw hard and the Glide was LOOOOONG witha predictable slight fade.
Again i was impressed with the late flight "penetration forward" as opposed to any quick hyzering out,,,, you will still need a spirit for that!
I saw a couple of shots that stayed on a slight Hyzer all the way that seemed to just hang which indicated they were not so low speed overstable ( but then again the Illusion is a really fast disc with a large wing)
It appears the only real difference is that they are more flexible in the flight plate.

Hey Dave, I threw some of Chris Re's Apache's at the LCO this past weekend and the Opaque ones are $$$!!! They fly exactly like my Assassin's only longer and faster. I was using the Assassin for shots out to about 450 ft. but need that extra 30-50 ft. for easy bird's. Let me know when you will have them ready...also how are the other new discs coming along?

Both the Apache and Savage discs have been available for quiet some time.
I personally like the solid color Apaches and feel the fly very similar to the 1st run Infernos but with more resistance to turn.
We have had several people tell us they can throw the Savage farther than the Apache,, I guess it just depends on the person and how they like to throw.

The Savage is more of a turn it over slightly out of the hand disc while the Apache should be released flat or slight Hyzer!
Both are very controllable and fill in the gap nicely between the Sabre and Illusion.

Speaking of Illusion, Monday we ran a slightly more flexible version than the white ones from last week. They have a bit more E in them and are more guummy.
These are yellow/orange and are fairly flat as opposed to the white poppy tops ones we ran last week. Both runs would be considered E Pro-line not E HPP, but we may try to get some HPP ran in them after our next big putter run we just started! ( can you say "SSSSS" super stupid silly squishy soft Wizards?)

Are you running any M wizards in this run?

Dave,
Is the plastic that you ran the Magics in for last year's BG Ams different than a typical S plastic? Mine is a super soft that is an orangish color. It looks and feels like an eraser on a #2 pencil. I and everyone that I know that has them, love this disc. I have a couple glow magics and they feel completely different than this one.

I would love to stock up on a few more since I throw them so much but nobody around here will give theirs up since they like them so much.

Are you running any M wizards in this run?

Im fairly certain we have medium Wizards at the shop

Dave,
Is the plastic that you ran the Magics in for last year's BG Ams different than a typical S plastic? Mine is a super soft that is an orangish color. It looks and feels like an eraser on a #2 pencil. I and everyone that I know that has them, love this disc. I have a couple glow magics and they feel completely different than this one.

I would love to stock up on a few more since I throw them so much but nobody around here will give theirs up since they like them so much.

The SSS putters we have right NOW should be real similar.

("SSSSS" super stupid silly squishy soft Wizards?) LOL....mmmmm....do those come in flavors too. Cool....I'm gonna need that Apache by next week to practice before the Canadian tour....lol.

Dave...those Apaches are "PERFECT"!!! They filled the gap where I needed it...right between my Diablo DT and Assassin. They have a great resistance to turn while still allowing for a slow turn when thrown on an anhyzer route and the fade is slight but predictable..THANKS!!!

We just got in some disc golf bags and have plenty of cool stencil dyes on our ebay store.

There are more colors of bags and more quantities on hand,, if anyone is interested they can call the shop 314 487 5204.

Bags come and go quickly so if youre looking for a new Gateway golf bag,, now is the time.

http://stores.shop.ebay.com/gatewaydiscgolfdirect_Disc-Golf-Bags-and-Straps_W0QQ_fsubZ228077419QQ_sidZ38764859QQ_trksid Zp4634Q2ec0Q2em322

BTW we have some STUPID soft putters coming off the line right now and they should be ready to ship soon.

By stupid I'm talking SSSS,,, some maybe even should have another S as they melt when they hit the chains.

the Blue and Yellow are the most flexible, then the white and the black are closer to regular SSS.

right now we have them in Wizards and Warlocks.

We also have some SS organic Wizards probably the most flexible OG we have made, They are all GREEN!!!!

LOL...so with the extra S would you have to have a new putter after every hole? I mean with the whole melting issue....lol. Seriously though...SSSS plastic sounds fun to play catch with...practice before rounds.

ANy chance of sum OG VooDoos in the same SSS like the frist run black ones??

Dave, I've seen the Revolution back pack, but only pictures of the Gateway back pack. Any additional info you can tell me besides what is on your web page?

Thanks

How does SSSSS compare to the "rubber vomit" Vibram VP as far as floppiness & gumminess?

i assume you threw a VP for more than a couple of rounds to be able to come up with that opinion of it?

i assume you threw a VP for more than a couple of rounds to be able to come up with that opinion of it?
I think you misinterpret my post, o basker in the shadow of Falwell. I LOVE the hyper-floppy VP (the "A" & "B" VPs are not-too-bad, as well) & it has been firmly entrenched in my bag since its initial tryout a couple of months ago. The plastic is the same color & consistency as rubber vomit, including small "chunks" of color (see NOHalfFastPull's avatar), thus the moniker.

Dave, I've seen the Revolution back pack, but only pictures of the Gateway back pack. Any additional info you can tell me besides what is on your web page?

Thanks

I own one. What would you like to know?

I think you misinterpret my post, o basker in the shadow of Falwell. I LOVE the hyper-floppy VP (the "A" & "B" VPs are not-too-bad, as well) & it has been firmly entrenched in my bag since its initial tryout a couple of months ago. The plastic is the same color & consistency as rubber vomit, including small "chunks" of color (see NOHalfFastPull's avatar), thus the moniker.

I have one of these... you can fold it up and put in your pocket... it folds into into a quarter-wedge and then pops back into shape... never threw it but if you ran out of room in the rest of your bag - you could put in your insulated drink holder...

I think you misinterpret my post, o basker in the shadow of Falwell. I LOVE the hyper-floppy VP (the "A" & "B" VPs are not-too-bad, as well) & it has been firmly entrenched in my bag since its initial tryout a couple of months ago. The plastic is the same color & consistency as rubber vomit, including small "chunks" of color (see NOHalfFastPull's avatar), thus the moniker.

i do apologize. i did misunderstand. glad to hear of yet another lover of the VP! and again. my bad.

and yes. the shadow of falwell does loom over most of what happens here. prob the one reason i dislike the area. everything else is great! disc golf especially.

and yes. the shadow of falwell does loom over most of what happens here. prob the one reason i dislike the area. everything else is great! disc golf especially.

It even looms over disc golf. Why do you think the sound of a sweet putt is the same as that of money hitting the collection plate?:p

I haven't seen the vibram putters yet ( steve wont send me any)

Several of the recent SSS runs are extremely flexible and could be marked with 1 or 2 more S's.
I'd say you could fold them up and put them in your drink holder if you had to!!

They will also go into the basket from the side, which is fun to do at the factory when your bored :)

Heres a list of some of our latest runs besides all the stupid soft putters!

Organic Voodoos and Wizards ( mostly between ss and SSS with afew runs between soft and SS, no medium this time) all are shades of green with a few do do brown!

Glow Pro Line Elements, these things are really bright and not so understable.

Pro line Warriors , a bit beefy for pro line but less overstable then the clear E HPP.
They have a bit of dome and glide out really well when reversed slightly!

Pro line Illusions and the Retooled Speed demon!
The Speed Demon now has a less concave wing ( in fact it's flat) and we added surface technology to the new shape which greatly reduces drag.

We also just got in the Assassins and Diablo's, probably the best 2 runs of these discs so far in terms of plastic.
The assassins are "DEAD" straight and the diablos are EXTREMELY FAST!!!!!
With the low profile & surface technology on the top and and wing, this could be one of the fastest discs on the market today and will maintain its speed longer than any other disc on the market.

Wait...so the Assassins have become more stable with the new runs and the Diablos are faster than the first runs? Oh...and if the new putters can flex into the side of a basket that will take at least 3 strokes per round off my game....lol.

Are the new E Assassins stable like the Proto S Assassins??

I'm thinking this run of Assassins are just straight flying and landing stable and not really anymore over-stable than before. The flex is a bit firmer and they are really durable.

The Diablo's have a nice smooth transition from nose to dome and feel really solid in the hand.
Not too stiff and not too flexible:
We went back to the original top for the Diablo which is not as domey and they look sleek and are EXTREMELY FAST and LOOOOOOOOONG!

Love the new plastic! It might be old for you but we are in nowhereland and I just saw a disc of yours with that plastic....pretty cool!

Arthur

is the bullseye target a production run? that is the narrow-chained basket on a couple holes on akita's run, right?
if not, why not? i can't find a narrow practice basket anywhere.
thx,
brandon

Bulls eye

We are actually working on a metal basket (the wire assembly below the chains) as the plastic ones wouldnt Stay round and together with out tape and such.

We are also working on a few different bases and hope to have some Bulls EYE's at worlds.

awesome. thx

WOW...its been quiet in here for a while...what is going on? I'll start...what is coming out in the near future Dave? I'm wishing for a mid that falls between the Warrior and the Element!!!

working too much:
moving into the new shop:
biking and kayaking:
getting ready for worlds:

Yeah...I heard about the new shop...that location will make it easy to help out when I come home in Dec. Kayaking??? You come up here to Montana and I'll take you kayaking...I have a great Dagger Mamba Creeker that we can take on any creek, river, or waterfall you want!!!

Oh...and in response to my July 22nd post...I realized I had the mid-range already...The old Element X falls in between the Warrior and the new Element in terms of stability. If you were still producing the old mids you would have a solid mid line-up. The Warrior is your over-stable mid, the Element X is your stable mid, the re-tooled Element is your slightly under-stable mid, and the old element is your under-stable turnover mid....it would be solid...but you could cut out the old element and still have a solid line-up.

Gateway Disc Sports has a new location!!!

Gateway Disc Sports
2661 Metro Blvd
Maryland Hts, MO 63043

Just off of I-270 and Dorsett Rd.
From I-270 go East on Dorsett to the third road on the left...just past Zion Luthern Church.

Ok....all you organic fans out there....be on the look-out for the new Red Organic Wizards with a newly designed Wizard stamp!!!

Ok....all you organic fans out there....be on the look-out for the new Red Organic Wizards with a newly designed Wizard stamp!!!

Do you have a pic? Any in medium?

David,

Do you have a new disc in the works called The Edge?? I ask because on Discaroo some guy has a disc on there listed as Gateway Proto Driver, and in the Comments area lists it as being named the Edge.

The edge were the original Speed Demon Protos

Unfortunately I don't have a pic....I just get info to pass along.

Originally Posted by poisonelf on innova thread
I know at one time that innova use to run molds for whamo, is there even the slightest chance that you all might ever run 86 softies again? (hopefully in some more durable plastic, last i heard was the DTworld has the mold)?


Dave Dunipace's reply
We have already turned down that oportunity twice. We really don't have the facilities or time for it. We mold our own discs, plus discs for three other companies. We are booked. I believe that DTWorld does currently license the mold.


Dave Mac you should really look into a specialty run of these in CE and S plastic...I'd probably buy as many as i could afford and it sounds like they want someone to actually run these things again. It would be a joy to have 86 softies that dont shatter when it gets cold.

Originally Posted by poisonelf on innova thread
I know at one time that innova use to run molds for whamo, is there even the slightest chance that you all might ever run 86 softies again? (hopefully in some more durable plastic, last i heard was the DTworld has the mold)?


Dave Dunipace's reply
We have already turned down that oportunity twice. We really don't have the facilities or time for it. We mold our own discs, plus discs for three other companies. We are booked. I believe that DTWorld does currently license the mold.


Dave Mac you should really look into a specialty run of these in CE and S plastic...I'd probably buy as many as i could afford and it sounds like they want someone to actually run these things again. It would be a joy to have 86 softies that dont shatter when it gets cold.

There could be the 86 Softie, 86 Super Softie, and 86 Super Stupid Softie.

which would rule in like 15 different ways

LOL...yeah...I know quite a few people that would buy those discs....especially the old school guys.

so come on Dave..what you think?

CONGRATS to Nikko on his first USDGC win!!!!!

I want a USDGC Champion Series Wizard

Congratulations Gateway and Nikko!

Congratulations Gateway and Nikko!

Hopefully this will bring more publicity to Gateway.

Hopefully this will bring more publicity to Gateway.

if not the cover of the Rolling Stone, this should make the cover of the official magazine of the PDGA...

so how did jeremy get DD shirt on Nikko when hes throwing for Gateway? way to go Nikko and Gateway..and Destroyers...

Nikko is sponsored by DD too.

Dave, we're having a discussion on DGR about what is in the mixed bag Nikko had for is USDGC win. If you get a chance, could you post that?

I believe the only thing left in his mixed bag is a Destroyer.

http://gatewaydiscs.blogspot.com/2009/10/risk-taking-pays-off-to-tune-of-1500000.html

I guessed most of the stuff right (except the Assassin, I assumed he had a Sabre). I was curious what non Gateway molds he was throwing. Surely he's got a midrange in his bag. I think I remember him carrying a Buzz.

He picked up some Star Wraiths from me when he was here. Pretty sure thats what he used for a 450ft. flat ground ACE at Eastern Avenue Park in Davenport. Gross.

There is a new #1 ranked player in the World per the Prime Disc Ratings. None other than the 09 USDGC Champ! ; )

In addition, there are new runs of Organic Voodoos, Black Magics and Glow Wizards out today if anyone is interested.

He picked up some Star Wraiths from me when he was here. Pretty sure thats what he used for a 450ft. flat ground ACE at Eastern Avenue Park in Davenport. Gross.

It was a star boss. That shot was sick! His bag is extremely simple, makes me wonder why I carry so many discs. Heard he was putting with a magic lately. I am glad Nikko won, he puts so much work into his game.

Hey Dave, is Nikko the son of your sister, and how old was he when you said to yourself -- this kid is going to be #1-- ?

I saw Nikko play Idlewild earlier this year and he was phenomenal. Tyler Horne had an insurmountable lead though that day...

His bag is extremely simple, makes me wonder why I carry so many discs.

Simple = good.

Simple = good.

K.I.S.S. Keep It Simple Stupid. Best philosophy I have ever heard in disc golf. Has done alot for my game going in with that mentality.

Just got in some new Assassins and I am a happy guy. They are just like the one I dunked in the pond a couple weeks back. Oh happy day.

Dave, we're having a discussion on DGR about what is in the mixed bag Nikko had for is USDGC win. If you get a chance, could you post that?

This video is from earlier in the year I think. But might help you figure out what Nikko was throwing for USDGC.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0TSuRXFd3A

Thanks, I saw that on DGR this morning.

The Gateway TITAN baskets are now PDGA approved!!!

Some of Nikko's USDGC Bag- Wizards, Magics, DX Roc, 2nd FR Buzzz, T-birds (HOMIE Glow Champ and maybe a 10x), Destroyer (either Star, Echo or SB), Illusions, Spirit, Blaze

I'd say it is a safe bet that he also had either a Star Boss or Echo X-Cal in there as well.

He's had some Leopards (Star and CE) in the bag as well, not sure if they were in at the USDGC.



That 450 Ace he had was with a Red Star Boss and it was siiiick.

WOW,,,,,it's been quite some time since I posted,,,,,been busy trying to get everything moved and under one roof.
We got the machines moved on Wednesday and all thats left to move to the new location are a few gaylords and barrels of polymer and all of the colorant.

We just started work on a new mold for a long range driver called the Ninja,,,,something similar to a boss with surface technology on the wing and first 1" of the top like an Assassin. ( hoping its a bit more understable than the boss's I threw of Nikkos Today,, which actually flew more like a spirit!).

We will be looking for Ninja Text and an icon of sorts relating to a Ninja in action.
LOOK for a logo contest to start soon and a chance to win $500.00!

I'll get a drawing of the part shape up on sunday night when the contest starts.

LOL...When I get back there in a few weeks I will test them out for you...lol...that is what I need big time. See ya Dec. 12th!!!

We are just starting the process of cutting the metal,,,plans are for the discs to be ready by the memorial!

a driver with a wing this long requires lots of polymer and processing prototyping in order to get a "STABLE" flight,,, again we are hoping for something a bit under stable for a 300 foot throw.

Then I guess it will be really understable for a 400+ ft throw?

We plan to create a slightly under stable disc at a wide range of launch velocities, starting at 300 feet. ( just about any long winged driver will still be over stable for throws less than 300 or >45-50mph launch velocity)

The surface technology of the Ninja will help increase the resistance to turn and also decreases the low speed fade ( Assassin and Apache),,,,, so it shouldn't get that much more under stable at 400'. the Surface technology greatly reduces the drag on the disc ( think of the majority of an airlplane's wing surface which is slightly porous surface and not smooth polished metal, except for the moving parts when they want to change the drag and lift.
By reducing the drag on the under camber ( wing) and leading edge ( top 1") of a disc with a NON smooth surface, you are able to maintain launch velocity and rotation longer which equals more distance.

So is the disc for someone with less d? What kind of plastic will it come in?

Thanks Dave!

Ideally the discs will be for a wide range of players similar to the Assassin.

I have two questions:

What is the difference in flight between the original e element and the retooled element? I recently picked up an e element that was noticably smaller than other elements that i have had. The plastic was very stiff also. It is also more understable than other elements that i've had, flying like it is already broken in. I assume that i have an older run element but have no idea how to tell the difference.

My other question deals with sabres. I have sabres that brand new are perfectly straight as advertised. I also have sabres (newer runs) that are almost overstable and don't fly nearly as far as they should. I've read on here that there was a molding issue that has since been resolved. What am I looking for to distinguish the straight sabres to the sabres that fly like blazes?

I have two questions:

What is the difference in flight between the original e element and the retooled element? I recently picked up an e element that was noticably smaller than other elements that i have had. The plastic was very stiff also. It is also more understable than other elements that i've had, flying like it is already broken in. I assume that i have an older run element but have no idea how to tell the difference.

If it looks smaller and is firm its probably Pro line and most likey an older run, the only recent runs of firmer pro-line are all white.
there were 3 things we did in the retooling:
1) increased the rim width ( in ward_ making a longer winged by about .060 shorter inside diameter by about .120
2) we also added a larger radius where the rim depth meets the flight plate on the under side where you fingers would touch the rim. I personally love this feel when using both the Stacked grip and power grip. It just seems to come out of your hand smooth every time.
3) Top Off set these increases in mass we reduced the flight plate thickness by about .015

all 3 of these changes make the most recent runs of Elements more gyroscopic because of the weight added to the rim and taken out of the flight plate, from my testing I would say they have more resisnatnce to turn and a little more low speed fade,,, which isnt very much,, these discs are straight flyers and flat landers.
the last run off the line were in a translucent green, E- hppp ( nike) similar to the 01 ce roc in feel and look.


[/QUOTE]
My other question deals with sabres. I have sabres that brand new are perfectly straight as advertised. I also have sabres (newer runs) that are almost overstable and don't fly nearly as far as they should. I've read on here that there was a molding issue that has since been resolved. What am I looking for to distinguish the straight sabres to the sabres that fly like blazes?[/QUOTE]

Apparently there was a lip in the pocket of mold that houses the insert for the wing.
This lip wasnt letting the wing seat on the core ( inside cavity of the disc) which made the bead a little more pronounced and the runs over the last few years a little more overstable.
it seemed like no matter what we did the Sabres were beefy,,, some players cam to like them this way, but as you mentioned they were Blaze like, which is not what I want from my Sabre and what we want from the Sabre in our line.
This was really an easy fix and now the Sabre is back to straight STRAIGHT flying and can even be turned for long turnover drives 250-350 or just beyond what you can do with your element. I use the sabre a lot like a roc,,, its very forgiving and can be thrown lower than most mid-ranges with control and accuracy.
The latest runs in the E hpp ( nike) in the sabres is pretty flat and are $$$$$ if you like XL tee bird type of flight,,,
They will hyzer flip now and glide,,,,,, not fade out as quickly.
the only way to tell would be that the bead is smaller more tucked under the concave like the much older runs.

Where is the best place to get the fixed sabres? The two places that i know of in my area that sell Gateway products don't have HPP.

Not sure what stores your referring to but would like to help them get in some of the new HPP.
if you want to email me the stores names [email protected],.com I can do what I can to get them set up with the HPP.

As far as the FX, we let most of the FX Sabres get mixed in with the regular ones, but should be able to find some around the shop.
Or you could try one of the larger on line retailers who have a large selection of Gateway and ask them if the have any with FX written on them.

I believe the re-tooled Elements to be slightly more stable than the old Elements. I carry both in my bag. I also carry the New Warrior and old Element X. The Sabre is amazing...if you get a good run..I have a milky white pearl one and it has been the most accurate fairway driver...I use it on tight long fairways with pin-point accuracy. It had a very slight bead on the wing that slowly wore down to become a little less stable. Great Disc!!!

My good sabres are the pearly milky white ones from around 07. That plastic was outstanding, not showing much wear or significant changes in flight characteristics even after heavy and extend use. In early 08 i bought a stack of white evolution sabres thinking that they were exactly the same. Not even close They were so short and overstable that i stopped throwing the sabre (and gateway in general) altogether. I ordered a 5 disc x-out pack from gateway off of ebay that has a hpp sabre in it to give it another extended look (with my two remaining milky whites back in the bag). I am really hoping that they are close as they were my most thrown driver/midrange a few years ago.

Dave-
have you guys made any s sabres since the mold has been fixed? if not, do you plan on it?

Dave-
have you guys made any s sabres since the mold has been fixed? if not, do you plan on it?
Yes there should be some RED "S" Sabres since we ground off the lip on the pocket,, there are also Blazes both are significantly less overstable,, even the blaze isless overstable than the last 2 years runs of Sabre.

Very cool to hear Dave. I quit throwing the Sabre for this very reason; I had to throw it way too hard to make it fly straight, which defeats the purpose of a control driver. Perhaps I'll check some out soon again.

Yes..."fixed" s-sabres would be very nice. I am down to my last "S" G1i stamped sabre.

Yes..."fixed" s-sabres would be very nice. I am down to my last "S" G1i stamped sabre.
found a whole box of these old G1 i stampoed sabres or some from the same run.

we should have all of our Older stuff we have laying around on the www.gatewayunderground.com site soon.

we have a bunch of stuff up now but mostly just sets.

Feel free to send me some of those that were found in a box ;-)

Hey Joe,
which stamp is on the ones you prefer?

Dave, the new run of spirits that are hard and very similar to the old nike runs are awesome. I have smashed on these things and still show no sign of any kind of rash or nicks. Plus they are hogs!

Are the spirits in ce plastic? Can anyone call the shop and get their hands on the G1 stamped stuff?

Dave,

I just got some new M Voodoos. They are not like the porous S plastic that is most commonly used, but rather have a rubbery surface texture and are more durable. I've also had Wizards and Warlocks in this plastic...Is this plastic the result of an S/hytrel blend? That's what I've always guessed, but I thought I'd ask to be sure. Anyway, this is my favorite plastic for putter-drivers.

Hey Joe,
which stamp is on the ones you prefer?

Dave...these are the one's I dig on. This is a picture of my very first dg disc I ever bought back in 2002(Bought a G9i Wizard too that I still have). I got it from a friend that used to run GDS events.

Also, one more thing for you chuckers out there, you'll need to get your hands on some Apache's. These things are pure sweetness. Be sure to check out both the Proline and the HPP as they compliment each other very nicely.

Dave,

I just got some new M Voodoos. They are not like the porous S plastic that is most commonly used, but rather have a rubbery surface texture and are more durable. I've also had Wizards and Warlocks in this plastic...Is this plastic the result of an S/hytrel blend? That's what I've always guessed, but I thought I'd ask to be sure. Anyway, this is my favorite plastic for putter-drivers.
I'm pretty sure there wouldn't be any H in a Medium Voodoo,,,maybe some older Medium Wizards would have a little H in them.
Are they stiff?
What color?
Do you have a picture of the disc?

By the time we put enough polypropylene in the mix to make them medium, the surface isn't so matted, but some recent runs of Medium have a very VERY tiny bit of SSS in them just to add to the grip.
I'm thinking thats what you have and most likely what mediums will feel like from now forward. I like the firm no flex feel of the flight plates ( in the summer) and grippy surface.
Some players like the mediums to be a little smoother!

In the summer...big fan of a firm flight plate with a soft/grippy touch.

I'm pretty sure there wouldn't be any H in a Medium Voodoo,,,maybe some older Medium Wizards would have a little H in them.
Are they stiff?
What color?
Do you have a picture of the disc?

By the time we put enough polypropylene in the mix to make them medium, the surface isn't so matted, but some recent runs of Medium have a very VERY tiny bit of SSS in them just to add to the grip.
I'm thinking thats what you have and most likely what mediums will feel like from now forward. I like the firm no flex feel of the flight plates ( in the summer) and grippy surface.
Some players like the mediums to be a little smoother!

It is the one on the right.
http://photos-d.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs063.snc3/13068_1068488489533_1745723576_137846_7623805_n.jp g

Yeah that one is from the latest runs,, and should be what the mediums will be like in all of the putters.
I know the Medium Wizards are pretty beefy, some of the most overstable we have ever ran including runs of E!

the one you have looks brand spanking new,, have you played with it much?

Yeah that one is from the latest runs,, and should be what the mediums will be like in all of the putters.
I know the Medium Wizards are pretty beefy, some of the most overstable we have ever ran including runs of E!

the one you have looks brand spanking new,, have you played with it much?

That one is unthrown. Since I had Wizards and Warlocks in that plastic, I had been waiting to find Voodoos like that for almost a year. When I finally saw some I bought several. One I have flexed and beat in on purpose and its pretty straight now. I have another one in my bag in new condition and it is quite overstable. I really like how they fly. They really stick on their line and fly through the wind really well. My SS's that I putt with will glide farther if I air them, but the M's fly better on low line-drives.

played a 9 holes today in 32 degree weather used a SS magic and ss Voodoo for one of the first times.
really liked how they felt in the cold weather and how straight both discs were even when I didn't get enough spin on them.

Ive never really used flexible putt and approaches even when its been cold Ive stuck wizards with soft, but these 2 were so accurate I almost made like 4 putts ( throws)from outside of 50

Since I havent had a chance to play a lot over the last few months, I am wanting to know what type of distance players are getting out of the latest runs E-HPP or E-pro line apaches, how and when you use them and what differences players feel are in stabilities in the 2?

Both Apaches I throw are E hpp and are broken in slightly and are very similar to the beefiest inferno's (white,,, small Gateway bar stamp no dude on fire) with the same amount of speed and glide, just a lot more resistance to turn. I can get these things out there with plenty of control about 400'- 430' in normal wind conditions, which is not quite as far as I can throw an illusion,,,, but close...
I can also use them for drives of 300- 400 where I use to muscle up on a Sabre.
For me its a really versatile disc as I like throwing with a little nose up hyzer and can give it just about all I have without fear of them flipping at 30-40 feet off the ground

Anyone else with any reports on how you use your apache and how the different platics compare???

I have been throwing an HPP, E-HPP Blend and a straight E-Proline apache over the past few months. Here are my findings:

Best Distance:
1. E-Proline (400-450)
2. E-HPP Blend (380-400)
3. E-HPP (350-370)

Stability:
1. E-HPP
2. E-HPP Blend
3. E-Proline

Glide:
1. E-Proline
2. E-HPP Blend
3. E-HPP

Overall, I would say that the E-HPP Blend is my favorite. It is very teebird like in stabilty, but with better speed to it. The E-Proline is great for crushing some gliding bombs. I do need some room to work with it though. I parked hole 1 long to long at Grandview Park with an E-Proline Apache a month or so back. The hole plays 499 ft. with an 8 ft. drop in elevation.

Dave...any chance of some S/H mix Apache's?

Joe,
there are a few prototype runs of apache that have a little S in them, most of the discs are Yellow and have a very noticeable velvet feel to the surface. since it was just a prototype run we didnt get the material all the way dry so there are a few moisture marks on them.
they in amongst these discs:
http://gatewayunderground.com/blog/2009/12/09/x-out-apaches/

Joe,
there are a few prototype runs of apache that have a little S in them, most of the discs are Yellow and have a very noticeable velvet feel to the surface. since it was just a prototype run we didnt get the material all the way dry so there are a few moisture marks on them.
they in amongst these discs:
http://gatewayunderground.com/blog/2009/12/09/x-out-apaches/

Are they from the same run, or at least similar to the early proto Red Apache's with S and E mixed in?? Shawn has 2 of them, and I love those discs, but there's no way he's ever giving them up.

Yeah...those Apaches with the grippy S in them are money...Dave and I were throwing them out at Lindenwood...Not sure to the D...what do you think Dave? I really like the new runs of Magic in the SSS...a little lighter than normal...160's I think and were like SSSS...lol. Nailed Dave on a few long upshot touch putts.

I have been throwing the clear Apaches and the clear Savages for a few months now. For me the Apache is not as overstable as the Savage. I am using the Apache to extend shots that I would want to power up on a Saber. As far as Savage... I am trying to figure out if i need it. Between the Illusion and the Spirit, not sure how this disc fits for me yet.

Yeah...those Apaches with the grippy S in them are money...Dave and I were throwing them out at Lindenwood...Not sure to the D...what do you think Dave? I really like the new runs of Magic in the SSS...a little lighter than normal...160's I think and were like SSSS...lol. Nailed Dave on a few long upshot touch putts.

Yeah they are from the same run, or yeah you're agreeing with me??

I was commenting on Dave's response. The Apache's with the powder are $$$....they feel like the eraser plastic mixed with a little more rubber and have the powder like the old black Wizards did.

We only had about a few dozen of those RED chalky Apaches but do still have a few boxes of the Yellow ( not quite as a flat but they have a REALLY LOOOOOOOOOONG GLide).
The S doesnt really work so well when ,mixed with the E without causing cosmetic blemishes, but I agree the grip is money,, they just cant be sold full retail so we wont be running them again anytime soon..

We only had about a few dozen of those RED chalky Apaches but do still have a few boxes of the Yellow ( not quite as a flat but they have a REALLY LOOOOOOOOOONG GLide).
The S doesnt really work so well when ,mixed with the E without causing cosmetic blemishes, but I agree the grip is money,, they just cant be sold full retail so we wont be running them again anytime soon..

Can I email you or call the shop if I want to order a couple of those yellow Apaches??

The Soft and SS magics are money. Im playing in COlorado and colder weather than Im used to. I was wondering what type disc to go with and the SS Magic in the cold is Sweet. I was making putts from 50 out and banged a 80ft up shot for Bird, Dave Im lovin these magics....
CAnt wait to dial these Apache's in, will get back with info.

The Soft and SS magics are money. Im playing in COlorado and colder weather than Im used to. I was wondering what type disc to go with and the SS Magic in the cold is Sweet. I was making putts from 50 out and banged a 80ft up shot for Bird, Dave Im lovin these magics....
CAnt wait to dial these Apache's in, will get back with info.

The recent runs of Evo Apaches are really sweet. they have a nice resistance to turn and a huge glide with very little fade. They remind me of the 1st run "WHITE" Infernos, without the worry of flipping them over. They are NOT translucent,,,more of a solid color red, orange and variations of these 2 colors.

Yeah the magics has been gaining in popularity over the last 2 years, starting when we gave them away at BG ams in 08!
They are really good for new players because of how straight they fly and land and also ideal those that can control a non beaded lay up disc with hyzer flip!

http://gdstour.com/blog/2010/02/09/guess-what-hole-this-course-is-at-for-a-free-set-of-gateway-discs/

So this contest is not going to be easy but I'm sure some of you can get resourceful enough to figure out what holes and what courses these pics are from.

http://gdstour.com/blog/2010/02/12/contest-4-name-the-holes-and-courses-of-each-of-the-3-pics/

Yes the E Apahce's slick orange and red are money. they feel great and glide amazing.
I do have a desire in the future if you can make it happen or if you have plans. I love the Magic, I love the thick flight plate it feels good and solid in Hand. I always enjoyed the Wizard but kind-of thin in flight plate and this also made it fast, which for my loft putting wasn’t always good. My misses were long. So i love the magic cause it feels solid and has good glide with out being to fast. It stays close to target. My question would be: If you could add a "Bead" of stability to a Magic I could putt, and approach with it, In other words it would replace my Wizard for up-shot and driving. And I bet this would compliment Nikko really well with what he is doing?
Is that possible to have a "Magic with a Bead" stability???

Ok all your KC whippet throwers, you FLX Drone guys, you Champ Gator guys , and those few Champ / DX -- Viper guys/….WATCH OUT. Gateway just made a disc that might just trump all your dreams. Dave finally “after years of me whining”…put out an E—Demon. It skips, its crazy over stable, yet controllable. DUDE s its off the CHAINS. It is controllable and over stable to handle any up shot with precision you need or can handle. Please for your good try one..
E Demon…..

Ok all your KC whippet throwers, you FLX Drone guys, you Champ Gator guys , and those few Champ / DX -- Viper guys/�.WATCH OUT. Gateway just made a disc that might just trump all your dreams. Dave finally �after years of me whining��put out an E�Demon. It skips, its crazy over stable, yet controllable. DUDE s its off the CHAINS. It is controllable and over stable to handle any up shot with precision you need or can handle. Please for your good try one..
E Demon�..

E Demons have been out. I've had one in the bag for a while. Love it!

Dear David -

I've been looking for a putter for forever.
The Gateway Magic Prototype has changed my life.

I had a couple questions.


Is this model considered "firm" or "soft"?

What constitutes a "prototype" designation?

What would be a non-proto version of this be?

Does the "black" make a difference with these?
Are they unique?

They are beautiful.

Are they no longer in production?


Thank you -


Harry

I love the Magic, I love the thick flight plate it feels good and solid in Hand. I always enjoyed the Wizard but kind-of thin in flight plate and this also made it fast, which for my loft putting wasn’t always good. My misses were long. So i love the magic cause it feels solid and has good glide with out being to fast. It stays close to target. My question would be: If you could add a "Bead" of stability to a Magic I could putt, and approach with it, In other words it would replace my Wizard for up-shot and driving. And I bet this would compliment Nikko really well with what he is doing?
Is that possible to have a "Magic with a Bead" stability???

I love the Magic, I love the thick flight plate it feels good and solid in Hand. I always enjoyed the Wizard but kind-of thin in flight plate and this also made it fast, which for my loft putting wasn�t always good. My misses were long. So i love the magic cause it feels solid and has good glide with out being to fast. It stays close to target. My question would be: If you could add a "Bead" of stability to a Magic I could putt, and approach with it, In other words it would replace my Wizard for up-shot and driving. And I bet this would compliment Nikko really well with what he is doing?
Is that possible to have a "Magic with a Bead" stability???

That would probably be the Voodoo, or Warlock. I'm not entirely sure which one is more stable than the other though.

well a Warlock is a Wizard with no bead so it is under-stable.
A voodoo I have htrown, did not seem overstable...but
they could be more than a Magic?

I wouldn't call the Warlock "understable." It's probably the most stable beadless putter I've thrown.

The Voodoo is more overstable at putting ranges; the Voodoo has some LS fade, while the Magic goes straight.

As for driving, the Voodoo is pretty straight, while the Magic tends to turn right (RHBH).

couldn't agree more

I wouldn't call the Warlock "understable." It's probably the most stable beadless putter I've thrown.

The Voodoo is more overstable at putting ranges; the Voodoo has some LS fade, while the Magic goes straight.

As for driving, the Voodoo is pretty straight, while the Magic tends to turn right (RHBH).

I wouldn't call the Warlock "understable." It's probably the most stable beadless putter I've thrown.

The Voodoo is more overstable at putting ranges; the Voodoo has some LS fade, while the Magic goes straight.

As for driving, the Voodoo is pretty straight, while the Magic tends to turn right (RHBH).

The Voodoo is one weird putter though. Low speeds you cant really tell the difference between it and the Wizard, but at high speeds it has some turn. The Warlock though on short putts has fade similar to the Wizard, but on drives it is dead nuts straight. At least from my experience.

So better putter all-around, with no wind and still use in headwind...Warlock or Magic?

Best putter for putting? The one that goes in the basket the most for you.

Best for all around play (driving and such)? Probably the Warlock.

So better putter all-around, with no wind and still use in headwind...Warlock or Magic?

Warlock.

so why is Nikko jammin with Magic...?
what does he Know that we dont....I putt stratle with loft strait to basket like he does.
but we do have to change slightly in windy cond's

so why is Nikko jammin with Magic...?
what does he Know that we dont....I putt stratle with loft strait to basket like he does.
but we do have to change slightly in windy cond's
It's what works best for him. He probaly dosen't put much spin on it and its a straight flyer with little to no fade. You may need the extra stabilty so it fades back into the basket. Don't know how you putt but just what Im thinking. If you putt hard more than likely there is a fair amount of spin on your putters.

so why is Nikko jammin with Magic...?

Like I said above, inside of 30', you should be able to putt with most any putter on the market. I would assume Nikko doesn't like the feeling of the bead, and likes the straighter flight out of the Magic. But remember that he played with the Wizard (Gateway's only putter) for a number of years, and shot lights out. Inside that distance, it's the Indian, not the arrow. Nikko could putt with a paper plate and make it 98% of the time if that's how the game was played.

You're almost a 1000 rated player though, so I'm sure you're aware of this.

Yes but thanks, I do very little spin on my putter, Per Ken Climo atricle about making more putts,,,,I dont get nearly as many spits now that i spin less and drop more in...
but in wind i still need overstable (bead) putter, Magic is money but not for breezy days

Busy Dave, email me back about Texas States???

So, far the black prototypes (I have 2) have been my favorite run of this disc. I own probably 5-6 other magics in various flexes. The BG AMs run is a close second...

Dear David -

I've been looking for a putter for forever.
The Gateway Magic Prototype has changed my life.

I had a couple questions.


Is this model considered "firm" or "soft"?

What constitutes a "prototype" designation?

What would be a non-proto version of this be?

Does the "black" make a difference with these?
Are they unique?

They are beautiful.

Are they no longer in production?


Thank you -


Harry

The black S plastic does come out more firm than others. The black Magic is similar to medium...but I have some carbon black Wizards that are really firm. For those of you who are just getting familiar with the Apache it was a staple in my bag last year. Looking forward to the Ninja hoping to get a little more D before it starts to fade.

Hey Dave, Which Warrior is Nikko throwin?
CE Warrior, stiff flight plate? The E-(pro) domey type?
or the E- (flx) flexible flight plate?
Which one do you like?
Which Warrior is peopls favorite? (better D,more consistant into wind)???

Interested to hear about people favorite warriors, I like them all but each one is a little diff for me.

I bet Dave's favorite Warrior is an S one.

but there so domey, I feel I can throw an FLX flexy type in winter better and a stiff E one in warmer weather

Dear David -

I've been looking for a putter for forever.
The Gateway Magic Prototype has changed my life.

I had a couple questions.


Is this model considered "firm" or "soft"? ( id say if they are white or Red and have first run on them that that are between soft and medium)

What constitutes a "prototype" designation? ( just a shorter run where we me be experimenting with a blend or one of the first time we run a new mold)

What would be a non-proto version of this be? ( a production run where we are not expewrimenting, basically trying to reproduce a previous production run)

Does the "black" make a difference with these?
Are they unique?

(Often, but not always, black discs come from us running black regrind parts of the secondary colors green and purple along with black.
most blacks could be considered prototype runs, but again not all.)

They are beautiful.

Are they no longer in production?

(are you talking about black magics? if so what stamp is on them?)


Thank you -


Harry

answers are above in parenthesis (____)

Dave which E Waarior does Nikko throw? Which one do you prefer?

So better putter all-around, with no wind and still use in headwind...Warlock or Magic?


for my style of putting and laying up I'd say the Warlock would be better in most wind conditions as it is more overstable

Like I said above, inside of 30', you should be able to putt with most any putter on the market. I would assume Nikko doesn't like the feeling of the bead, and likes the straighter flight out of the Magic. But remember that he played with the Wizard (Gateway's only putter) for a number of years, and shot lights out. Inside that distance, it's the Indian, not the arrow. Nikko could putt with a paper plate and make it 98% of the time if that's how the game was played.

You're almost a 1000 rated player though, so I'm sure you're aware of this.

Nikko's choice of the magic over the Wizard for regular putting has nothing to do with the bead.
For him he wants to release with Hyzer,,,, and the magic just pops up perfectly with the amount of pace he puts on it, when throw putting or in windy conditions he will switch to the Wizard. He says the magic stays up longer ( more float) and because his putt is between a flick and a push it never really has too much spin and turns over, just up!

From what we are told from our customers its the blunter nose on the magic that makes the fingers wrap around farther that will give the impression that the disc is shallower,, ist NOT and the flight plate is not thicker in and is the same in all 4 putters, The mold has the same thickness, polymers or packing may give this impression and the way your hand warps around the nose will give it a different feel.

We have 2 plans for adding to our putter line, one is a beaded on a Magic type wing and the other is a flat spot above the wing like the magic has below, which will add the distance your hand will have to wrap around again,, giving the impression the disc has a shallower grip. by making a new blunter nosed top it will give us the ability to make 4 more putters models if we choose ( 5 if we add the beaded Magic)



I'm under the impression any more shallow of a rim ( like an XD or rhyno) will only add to the low end fade , which we already have in the Wizard and Warlock.
The blunter nose will slow the disc down which should allow for more margin of error especially useful on 30-40 foot putts.


FYI,
The only time ( that I know of) Nikko used the Warlock for putting was the last round at waterworks at at last year worlds. he had never used that disc for a round before that day,,, not sure if ever even practiced with it,,, he said he picked it up threw in in and kept throwing it in!