Ok, I'm not sure, but it seems reasonable to conclude that the promoters made more profit on the AM Worlds this year than in years past. Lacking any convincing evidence to the contrary, I've seen some pretty convincing evidence to support that.

What is fair? I guess it depends. There are some things we can all agree on.

1. We are all thankful that for the tremendous effort that the volunteers and promoters put in. Without them we would have no tournament

2. In our capitalist society, one cannot ignore the profit motive, though other motives certainly exist as well. For this reason, the players are motivated to want the biggest payout possible, and the promoter is motivated to make as much profit as is possible within certain bounds such as his/her reputation. Therein lies the basis of the current discussion.

The promoter, to increase participation, hence entry fee receipts, is motivated to exaggerrate the benefits of the tournament and downplay the idea that any profit was made to protect his reputation as a "generous" promoter. (hence future profits)

AMs may play for the love it, but also don't like to pay more for the love of it than is necessary and don't like to feel taken advantage of or misled.

3. The PDGA is a member oraganization that is democratically elected and is supposed to represent the best interests of all its members.

4. The AM worlds is a PDGA special event - in a sense a monopoly once the right to host it has been awarded. For this reason, the PDGA in representing it's members should seek out the most return to it's members in awarding the rights to a promoter to host the AM Worlds. The percentage of entry fees returned to the players would be one consideration.

Given all of the above, I'd assert the following:

There is a large demand for an AM Worlds tournament. ... bingo ... ... we should have one on the Schedule every year ... at this-point-in-time , our organized-governing-association has NEVER had an "Amateur World Championships" Tournament ... never ... ... ... it's high time we did ... The PDGA should award the right to host such a tournament to the group that best represents PDGA members interests. The relationship of entry fees to payout, being quite important should be definitely be considered.

If there is only one group stepping up to host AM Worlds, then I'd wager that most of us would be willing to grant that group (within reason) a good profit to make sure that we have an AM Worlds to compete in.

It is the PDGA's responsibility, as it's members representative, to try to convince many potential venues, promoters etc, that hosting the AM Worlds would be valuable to them (tourism dollars, etc, etc) Then the PDGA would have some bargaining power and be able to insist for example that a promoter return a certain percentage of the entry fees as payout exclusive of any donated items they also distribute to the players.

I've seen reasonable and good points on both sides of this debate, but nothing will change by posting messages on this forum, though it may create a lot of hard feelings.


Anyone who is unhappy with the way the PDGA represents it's members in awarding AM Worlds should take it up with their PDGA reps. and let them know that they intend to vote for a rep. that represents it's members interests.

PS - Wyatt, I used your post to respond to, not because of anything you said in your post, but just because I wanted to post this message


.
.
... you had several-buncha good points throughout that post ... I just felt the need to "borrow" from your quote ... thanks ... ;)

-The courses were in great condition.
-They had great course TDs, volunteers, spotters, etc.
-The play felt like Worlds. Lots of players from all over...seeing lots of people that I only see once a year or once every couple of years, etc.
-I thought the trophies (plaques) were very cool..



Jon,

Just so I'm not misinterpreted in my prior post. I agree with all of that too, and I too was only a spectator.

Jon,

I do know that in 2004 Worlds did provide script online shopping after the tournament.

Josh



A lot of that was because Des Moines basically ran out of merchandise, and so did Todd Breiner, according to Becky Z.

Chap



I know for a fact that Linx trailer which is rather HUGE ran out of stuff during the payout because I bought a few emtpy disc bins off of them with my funny money!!! Which was awesome because then those held all the sweet stuff I got with my payout of over 200 for 21st place and my almost 100 dollars for 5th in Distance!!!

Oh and Id have to say that in 06 if 108th got 45 I must have taken almost 90 for my 78th place finish......I knew my 1st estimate of 60 was a bit low but hey I was just trying to be nice since 29th this year with the same amount of players took home 60 which is less thank what I got for 78th last year with just as kick ACE of a payout and from what I heard a MUCH MUCH MUCH better set of players partys and free food!!!

Still waiting to hear from ANYONE who wants to tell us how or why the payout was so small.

edit.

As stated before, please contact Terry Miller or the PDGA for those inquires as they are the ones responsible for that information. This was stated in many other posts, and we all know you read them, so please act on them if you are that passionate about finding out the information.

Maybe it deserves a public answer from the PDGA not a behind closed door answer :o

Maybe those involved who would have knowledge of the Am Worlds payouts and such are now immersed in the Pro Worlds, and thus everyone here will have to be more patient. Unless, of course, everyone wants them to drop everything to respond to message board scuttlebutt.

PS - Wyatt, I used your post to respond to, not because of anything you said in your post, but just because I wanted to post this message



Thanks for the Post David, as always you put it well and addressed the issues. Last night On the phone I forgot to thank you for getting Andrew to the Disc Golf Clinic, He had a great time help the new / first time Disc Golfer.

So thank you

Talk to you soon.

message board scuttlebutt.




:D:D:D

Maybe those involved who would have knowledge of the Am Worlds payouts and such are now immersed in the Pro Worlds, and thus everyone here will have to be more patient. Unless, of course, everyone wants them to drop everything to respond to message board scuttlebutt.



I don't really care where the money went, bottom line is it should have gone to the players, and it's too late for that now. I just wanted to bring to light that lots of money was made.

Why thankyou paproc, will be good to see you and kid roc next year. Bless his heart, he was in it to win it. He fought hard through disc golf and illness like a champ. It was fun watching those lil guy's and competitiveness. Shamroc (wyatt) had a great time with it also. That was my Schrek impersonator outfit. LOL

stay n touch
Mini Thumber

I doubt the money made gave the staff a mininum wage rate when you figure in the actual number of hours put in by each.

I want to see the financial report right now!!!!!! Just kidding :D:p :p :p :p :p :p :p :D

I finished 7th in the Adv. division and got $170 in merch. I have no qualms with my payout, I was there to try and win a world championship. Finishing 4 strokes out of first and 2 out of fourth after the semis was incredibly rewarding and satisfied me more than anything else could have. I've been reading this board and trying to come up with some sort of constructive way to alleviate the discontent of a lot of players. By no means have I figured out a comprehensive solution that would address all of the issues players have discussed in this forum, but I have come to one conclusion. I think that all am tournaments (D-Tiers through Majors) need to have standardized retail prices for merchandise. In the current system, TDs can be incredibly generous and payout based on low end profit margins, or they can be less generous and price discs/merch at max retail, ensuring a larger profit margin. If disc golf manufacturers and the PDGA could settle on a standardized "tournament retail" price for discs/merch that would be used in all PDGA sanctioned events, people couldn't complain about disparities between disc prices tournament to tournament. With some additional tweaks, this step could also help move us toward a standardization of payout percentages. I think that the less deviation there is in payout structure, the less complaining there will be.

Thanks again to Terry, the staff and volunteers, and anyone that helped put this event on. I had a great time playing the Milwaukee courses and enjoyed my am worlds experience.

. I've been reading this board and trying to come up with some sort of constructive way to alleviate the discontent of a lot of players.



Patrick, You did just that.

Thank you. I too have been try to come up with the words that would not affend but help.

We need more post like yours. a positive way to make things work. Yours is great idea. the disc makers have a min and max that they allow there stuff to be sold at. lets pick one for payout or the middle. As long as it is the same everywhere.

Thanks again. off topic Oak Hollow Open Aug. 25th and 26th. We would all love to see play Johnson st. one more time.

No one is complaining about the cost of the plastic in the payout!!! They were selling it for MSRP which is fine........People are complaining about the size of the payout!!!

and the 'cost' (amount of $$ that was taken out of entry fee) of player packs

I probably won't be responding to this thread again. But stating that the promoter took in a bigger take this year is out of line without you knowing. Based on a GUESS!

How do you know that the PDGA didn't take in a larger chunk? Again, unless you know all the details, your best bet is to...
Email the PDGA and ask these questions directly. Then you have something valid to post on the board. Until then, you are just adding to the misconceptions and insinuations. I would suggest doing so AFTER Pro Worlds, as they are all very busy right now.

Bye. I am done with this thread, back to being a board lurker.

I probably won't be responding to this thread again. But stating that the promoter took in a bigger take this year is out of line without you knowing. Based on a GUESS!



Agreed. It would be. The only statement I made close to that was my scenario of ME running an Am Worlds. I don't know who made the money, but money that should have gone to the players did not. I never stated anything about Terry, LTDS, local clubs or the PDGA. I've met Terry a few times, he seems to be a stand up guy,a good organizer, and a good player. I have no way of knowing who got the $$, but bottom line is that there was a significant chunk (I'm guessing a 5-digit amount) profited because player packs items were overpriced.

I'm not going to email the PDGA privately because:



I don't really care where the money went, bottom line is it should have gone to the players, and it's too late for that now. I just wanted to bring to light that lots of money was made.

I'm not going to email the PDGA privately because:



I don't really care where the money went, bottom line is it should have gone to the players, and it's too late for that now. I just wanted to bring to light that lots of money was made.





Or perhaps its just easier to spout off here instead of dig into things a bit and find out the real answers.

You do not know if anyone 'profited' out of this. For all you know, there were 'costs' that had to be covered. But again, spouting words such as 'lots of money was made' is easier than seeking information, and there is no accountability here in regards to making accusations without knowledge or facts.

Didn't the PDGA tournament results pages used to show the Am prize amounts? Is there a reason why they don't show those any more? This may be the wrong thread to pose the question, but it seems somewhat relavent to the subject.

someone needs a diaper and box of tissues

OK, a great experienced being tainted by some, flourshied (sp) by others. Only real issue I noticed was the amout of merchandise/availability to use with funny money. I don't see why the vendors that set up at the fly mart were not around to accept funny money, and have many different items, and redeem them with the pdga afterwards. Of course, I am a simple player, having fun, trying to be competitive, setting a good example , I hope, and not second guessing what our leaders do. I only wait for that command. 2 MINUTES.

Mini Thumber, full of Cheese

Tour de Rizbee update:

Last day today. We're beat. 7 courses yesterday. Three courses today as we return to San Diego. Finish line at Sun Valley at 4pm!!!!!! Support EDGE!!!

60 courses, 1,000 holes in 21 days will be reached today. What an amazing experience this has been. Thanks all for the support - it will take a few days/weeks to compile all the stories, pictures, etc., but we will share our wealth.

Fly free!!

Rizbee

Nice Job Team Rizbee, no payout needed, good clean fun, and special moments across the Country. Great example for all of Disc Golf. My vote for players of the Year

Mini and CupcAce, and now UN-Thumber

Has anyone mentioned that Ziggy Bierekoven would have won Advanced by like seven strokes? I was kinda baffled that he played 16 and under group. He woulda destroyed the regular AM1 division. Someone tell that kid to move up!!!

They also only played Brown Deer 1 time while the ADV division played it 3 times....But, I do believe that if he would have played in the appropriate division (ADV) that he would have been in the top 10.

Beat me to it Dana. Ziggy is definately an excellent amateur golfer who would have obviously done well in MA1, but the junior divisions played a different combination of courses and a different final 9 layout than MA1.

I don't think juniors should be pushed out of juniors while they are still juniors. Ziggy by far is the best junior boy in the world. There's no reason why anyone should think less of him for proving it and winning a world championship.

Kelsey moved up on her own decision. I'm fine with that, too. She had already won a junior worlds and did not think much of winning another.

Regardless, him playing 16 and under was an easy way out for a World Championship. There is no getting around that....

Regardless, him playing 16 and under was an easy way out for a World Championship. There is no getting around that....



:o Huh?? If the kid is UNDER 16 then he has the right to play where he wishes........... :)

Sounds like Sour Grapes to me.............. :p

Congrats Ziggy.......NOW the pressures on to WIN next year :D

Congrats Ziggy.......NOW the pressures on to WIN next year :D



But then there this kid here in the Northwest, that we call the "Chan-Man". ;)

If he stays AM he WILL be a contender next year... :D

Regardless, him playing 16 and under was an easy way out for a World Championship. There is no getting around that....



:o Huh?? If the kid is UNDER 16 then he has the right to play where he wishes........... :)

Sounds like Sour Grapes to me.............. :p

Congrats Ziggy.......NOW the pressures on to WIN next year :D



Sour Grapes? No, not quite..

Have you taken a look at his stats? He whooped up on the ADV division all year- http://www.pdga.com/tournament/playerstats.php?PDGANum=29879&year=2007

if you won your division or say placed in the top 10 in MA1 do you normally move up to Open? What have past players done? Do a lot of good ams move up to Open after worlds in general? thoughts...

if you won your division or say placed in the top 10 in MA1 do you normally move up to Open? What have past players done?



Bottom line, to anybody playing AMs. The Leader in pro worlds, is 22 yrs old :eek:

Peace to all :cool:

Age has zero to do with the decision to move to pro. I never even played disc golf until I was 22.

Regardless, him playing 16 and under was an easy way out for a World Championship. There is no getting around that....



:o Huh?? If the kid is UNDER 16 then he has the right to play where he wishes........... :)

Sounds like Sour Grapes to me.............. :p

Congrats Ziggy.......NOW the pressures on to WIN next year :D


The pressure to win is going to be NOTHING compared to the pressure to move up to Open on the kid. I hope he doesn't crack and move up too early, to be honest. He's a fantastic competitor, a great disc golfer, and a fun guy to be on a card with. I'd hate to see him move up too soon and have his attitude be ruined by it. But the fact is that he's going to be up over 980 with the next update, and by the time Am Worlds rolls around next year it is VERY likely that Ziggy will have vaulted over 990.

I understand that there is very little reason for a 16 year old to move up before he is mentally mature (going by the age he will be next summer), but 990 is difficult to ignore.

Jon,

I do know that in 2004 Worlds did provide script online shopping after the tournament.

Josh



A lot of that was because Des Moines basically ran out of merchandise, and so did Todd Breiner, according to Becky Z.

Chap



I know for a fact that Linx trailer which is rather HUGE ran out of stuff during the payout because I bought a few emtpy disc bins off of them with my funny money!!! Which was awesome because then those held all the sweet stuff I got with my payout of over 200 for 21st place and my almost 100 dollars for 5th in Distance!!!

Oh and Id have to say that in 06 if 108th got 45 I must have taken almost 90 for my 78th place finish......I knew my 1st estimate of 60 was a bit low but hey I was just trying to be nice since 29th this year with the same amount of players took home 60 which is less thank what I got for 78th last year with just as kick ACE of a payout and from what I heard a MUCH MUCH MUCH better set of players partys and free food!!!

Still waiting to hear from ANYONE who wants to tell us how or why the payout was so small.




And that was the plan... it does not make sense to haul anything home...

Our goals with the 2004 Iowa payout were to:

- Bring as much stuff as possible... trust me, we did...

- Help the Des Moines club use up their tournament merchandise FIRST.

- Provide EVERY person with a voucher that they could redeem at either the Des Moines club table, the LYNX trailer, or in the case that something they wanted was not available, online through a website set up specifically for the Des Moines payout (the PDGA logo was the only "advertising logo on the site"). Players could spend all of their voucher in one place, or split it up as they wished.

- With the exception of the small amount of remaining tournament merchandise offered on the Des Moines club table (they did not have much left by payout day (they did a good job of merchandising all week ong), all items were effectively stock items... so if we did run out of something (which we knew we would), then it could be ordered online... allowing everyone to get the items they actually wanted as opposed to what was available that day.

- Provide a smooth payout system that was fair to both the first and last person redeeming their voucher.

- Allow people who needed to "leave early" or "those who did not wish to carry their merchandise home" an alternative.

It should also be noted that the Des Moines club contacted us over a year in advance... which gave us plenty of time to plan and execute.

Breiner

He too must be cautious of NCAA obligations. Not sure what all he does, but he needs to maintain amature status to meet certain ncaa guidlines.

Mini Thumber

He too must be cautious of NCAA obligations. Not sure what all he does, but he needs to maintain amature status to meet certain ncaa guidlines.

Mini Thumber


From what I've heard, I don't think he needs to worry about that. Disc Golf is his only sport, it seems. I highly doubt he'll be competing in the NCDGU Championships though :)

not worth my time.

Thanks Team WI for a great time, and thanks to players and spotters that helped with.

Ziggy played open this past weekend, at the Flying Saucer Open. He took 3rd and turned down the cash. So he's testing the waters and knows he can play with them but I look for him to play advanced at next year's worlds.

Down on the Women's thread area I posted round by round unofficial ratings for the Women's pool. I used the PDGA ratings calculator but it would not know a gator from a non-gator so actual ratings may differ whenever the ratings get officially unscrewed.

I was going to do the same with Am Masters but then I remembered we had two pools. Since we all played the same courses by the end of the tournament, not playing the same courses at the same time should not matter much on the average. So without accounting for the F-Pool thing, I'll post average ratings later on today.

Down on the Women's thread area I posted round by round unofficial ratings for the Women's pool. I used the PDGA ratings calculator but it would not know a gator from a non-gator so actual ratings may differ whenever the ratings get officially unscrewed.

I was going to do the same with Am Masters but then I remembered we had two pools. Since we all played the same courses by the end of the tournament, not playing the same courses at the same time should not matter much on the average. So without accounting for the F-Pool thing, I'll post average ratings later on today.



If everyone played all the courses the same number of times then a total Worlds average would be pretty accurate. The round by round ratings would not be.

Here are Am Master and Am Grand Average Ratings. The Am Grands also played the same courses as the Am Masters so I included them. If they did not play our course for semi-finals, I'll recalculate without the semi-finals, but I think they did play our course.

Local
Avg Avg Hole Player
Player Name Rnd Score Rating

Mark A. Roberts 50 2.778 990
Don Barrette 50 2.778 990
Ken Swafford 50 2.786 988
Dieter Neumann 50 2.802 985
Tom McGraw 51 2.810 984
Johnny Macmillan 51 2.825 981
Dale McGuire 51 2.849 976
Steve Nichols 51 2.849 976
Larry Doc Harman 51 2.857 974
Brett Boedeker 51 2.857 974
Matt Kelly 52 2.865 973
Carl Mueller 52 2.865 973
Peter Charlton 52 2.873 971
David Martinez 52 2.873 971
Barry Hancock 52 2.873 971
Doug Heckenlaible 52 2.889 968
Scott Jatczak 52 2.889 968
Wilbur Wallis 52 2.889 968
Kyle Mayborn 52 2.889 968
James Fellows 52 2.897 967
Richard Hemlock 52 2.897 967
Jack Tabor 52 2.905 965
Steven Jewell 52 2.905 965
Daryl Siddon 52 2.905 965
Steven Parker 52 2.905 965
Mark Janssen 52 2.913 964
Bruce Brakel 52 2.913 964
Gary Carmichael 52 2.913 964
Bill Sherman 52 2.913 964
Will Wasserstrom 53 2.929 961
Gawain Stern 53 2.929 961
Philip Shelton 53 2.937 959
Dana Lanahan 53 2.963 954
Aaron Murry 53 2.963 954
Edward Schroer 54 2.972 952
Bryan Wagler 54 2.991 949
David C. Lee 54 3.000 947
Scott Homberg 54 3.019 943
Elliot Fu 55 3.028 942
Chris Jaskolka 55 3.028 942
Jim Simpson 55 3.037 940
Pluto Pat Brown 55 3.046 938
Brian Frederick 55 3.046 938
Jim Bassett 55 3.046 938
Jeff Shattuck 55 3.046 938
Brian Anders 55 3.056 936
Lloyd Sitkoff 55 3.056 936
Jack Hicks 55 3.056 936
Gary Mueller 55 3.065 934
Mike Michalak 55 3.065 934
Allen Risley 56 3.083 931
Keith Gudenkauf 56 3.093 929
Bob Normington 56 3.093 929
Daniel Richardson 56 3.093 929
Mark Thompson 56 3.093 929
Stuart Krall 56 3.102 927
Michael Melkers 56 3.111 926
Mark Nielsen 56 3.120 924
Steven Dufrane 56 3.120 924
Jay Joseph 56 3.130 922
Richard Rasch 56 3.130 922
Des Cooper 57 3.139 920
W.Ray Murray Jr 57 3.148 918
Paul Owen 57 3.148 918
Mark Kruse 57 3.148 918
Jeff James 57 3.167 915
Craig Shaon 57 3.176 913
Ross Boscoe Hansen 58 3.194 910
Greg Wells 58 3.204 908
Dan Mitchell 58 3.204 908
Leroy McNamer 58 3.222 904
Timothy Felten 58 3.231 902
Marv Adams 58 3.241 901
Craig Forsander 59 3.250 899
Jake Jacobs 59 3.259 897
Jim Sherwood 59 3.259 897
Mike Cox 59 3.269 895
Ron C. Miller 59 3.278 894
Mark Hoffmann 59 3.278 894
Daniel Duda 60 3.333 883
Sean Joice 60 3.343 881
Dallas Britt 60 3.343 881
Larry Fedikovich 61 3.380 874
Kenneth Martin 62 3.435 863
Ippei Yokota 62 3.463 858
Roland Schonmayr 63 3.509 849
John Birkrem 74 4.093 737
Mark Steddom 52 2.889 968
Mark Hauser 53 2.929 961
Jack Wood 53 2.937 959
Greg Brooks 53 2.937 959
Guy Griner 54 2.984 950
Brian Thompson 54 3.008 945
Randy Quantrell 54 3.024 942
Gene Fackler 55 3.032 941
David Hamilton 55 3.048 938
Gary Camp 55 3.048 938
John H. Jordan 55 3.056 936
Chuck Fairway Marquardt 55 3.063 935
Phillip Bryan 55 3.071 933
Al Babbe 55 3.071 933
David Hadder 55 3.079 932
Doug Singleton 55 3.079 932
Nick Repar 56 3.103 927
Steve Timm 56 3.103 927
Larry McCourt 56 3.135 921
Michael Helm 64 3.540 843
Neils Johnson 57 3.148 918
Damon Short 57 3.148 918
Jim Brady 57 3.148 918
Tom McManus 57 3.148 918
Michael Schuette 57 3.148 918
Greg Wheeler 57 3.157 917
Jeff Jansky 57 3.167 915
Richard Sheets 57 3.176 913
Ron James 57 3.185 911
David Frazer 58 3.194 910
Mel Back 9 Holton 58 3.194 910
Kurt Krasinski 58 3.204 908
Ron Put 58 3.204 908
Rocky Geist 58 3.204 908
Dennis Miller 58 3.204 908
Terry Riege 58 3.222 904
Greg Hettmansberger 59 3.259 897
Jan Baumgardner 59 3.259 897
Mike Wulbecker 59 3.259 897
Daniel Madden 59 3.269 895
Jeff Colston 59 3.287 892
Jeffrey Viggers 60 3.324 885
Bill Block 60 3.333 883
Gene Halaska 61 3.361 877
Frank Ammon 61 3.370 876
Tim Fry 61 3.389 872
Tim Schmidt Sr 61 3.398 870
Hideo Kawachi 61 3.407 869
Johnse Holt 61 3.407 869
Mark Parrish 63 3.481 854
Mike Ellery 63 3.491 853
Tomohiko Komuro 63 3.500 851
David Barish 64 3.574 837
Mike Stallman 74 4.130 730

O.k., this is showing your round average rounded off, your hole average to three decimals and your average rating for the week, calculated off the E and F pool players. Anyone who knows how to make pretty tables here can have at it.

To me the numbers all seem about 20 points high, but I just plugged the numbers into the PDGA ratings calculator and let it do its magic. I wonder if I also had to say the magic word... :D

the last two times i ran event numbers thru the local spreadsheet, they looked 15-30 points high also.

If Ziggy hits 980-990 range, there should be no question if he should move up or not. We have some local guys here in Columbus that are still in there teens and decided to move up to Open cuz they were just dominating the advanced field every tournament.

I think every amateur thinking about moving up should wait to see what the 2008 competitive format looks like. The PDGA will be unveiling it next month. From what I understand, there will be no bagging in Advanced next year. About the only divisions where there will be a safe haven for baggers will be the age and gender limited divisions.

Its too late; he's already bagging...Greg in MA1 looks to be the only AM Champion in the last 7 years that hasn't been bagging for at least a year or two before their Worlds

Let me know if the one you are looking for is not here yet: http://2007amworlds.blogspot.com/.

They may be bagging this year, but next year there won't be any bagging in advanced. None. Unless the naybobs shout down the plan and the new Board caves.

next year there won't be any bagging in advanced. None.



That's a bold statement.

Force players to move up? Create a new division not called advanced? Come up with a new meaning for the word "bagging"? Please, a former advanced player who just moved up wants to know. Give us a teaser.

They may be bagging this year, but next year there won't be any bagging in advanced. None. Unless the naybobs shout down the plan and the new Board caves.


Bruce, can you please "name names" since you obviously know so much about the upcoming changes? The whole "in crowd" or "good old boy" stuff really grows tiresome when people are constantly claiming to know stuff that no one else knows, but then they don't even go on to tell what all this new insider stuff is. :p

They may be bagging this year, but next year there won't be any bagging in advanced. None. Unless the naybobs shout down the plan and the new Board caves.


Bruce, can you please "name names" since you obviously know so much about the upcoming changes? The whole "in crowd" or "good old boy" stuff really grows tiresome when people are constantly claiming to know stuff that no one else knows, but then they don't even go on to tell what all this new insider stuff is. :p



It's all about perceived power, he tells and poof it's gone. ;)

Can you feel it? :D :p :D

They may be bagging this year, but next year there won't be any bagging in advanced

now that there is FUNNY I don't care who you are

Hey, this is proof that I am not in the "in crowd" or a "good old boy" since I know nothing about what Bruce is talking about.

Hey, this is proof that I am not in the "in crowd" or a "good old boy" since I know nothing about what Bruce is talking about.


Yeah right...I'm sure it was formulated and decided in a naked hot tub session! :D

I think GMs played Dretzka New for the semifinals. Didn't Masters play Dineen again?

I played w/ the ratings calculator (don't know which version) for the GMs alone and the avg was about 15 pts less than what you've got. I have no idea what that means. I prefer your version. :cool:

I think GMs played Dretzka New for the semifinals. Didn't Masters play Dineen again?

I played w/ the ratings calculator (don't know which version) for the GMs alone and the avg was about 15 pts less than what you've got. I have no idea what that means. I prefer your version. :cool:



a proposal is being made to the board to add another level of amateur golf:

Currently we have: Advanced, Intermediate, and Recreational.

The proposed new levels would be: Expert, Advanced, Intermediate, and Enthusiast.

I'm still hoping they'll change "Expert" to "Elite", and change "enthusiast" to anything else.

So when Bruce says there'll be no sandbagging in Advanced anymore, he's technically correct, as the new "Advanced" will have a ratings cap on it. Essentially, they've just attempted to rename what the current Advanced division is, and start calling it Expert, so in reality, nothing has really changed except the names of the levels, and the ratings breaks (slightly).


And nothing changes at all if the new board doesn;'t approve it.

Chap

As the sport grows, sometimes the standards have to as well. I personally think it's a great idea.

Have to laugh as a woman, we can't field three divisions as it is, guess we'll have to drum up some more girls to round things out.

How will that affect anything?? They will just be sandbagging in am-Expert (extreme oxymoron) and intermediate will play advanced and so on. It will just spread out the divisions and make them smaller and make it more confusing for a new player to pick which division to play in. Very dumb idead

That is stupid.

It will just create another stepping to stone between Adv and Pro (actually moving up), while diluting both Adv and Exp divisions. Retarded.
"Well, I won 4 Adv tournaments. Time to move up to a higher Amateur division."
instead of
"Well, I won 4 Adv tournaments. Time to move up."

... change "enthusiast" to anything else.





Oh God yes. There's already far too much cavorting around among the Rec players as it is. We don't want them getting overly enthusiastic.

Advanced" will have a ratings cap on it.

doesn't the old adv have a rating cap of 955 that is never enforced? also it really doesn't matter as "Amnesty" is what will create all the sand bagging.

No. The 955 limit is only for pro's playing in Advanced. Ams in Advanced can be rated higher.

How will that affect anything?? They will just be sandbagging in am-Expert (extreme oxymoron) and intermediate will play advanced and so on. It will just spread out the divisions and make them smaller and make it more confusing for a new player to pick which division to play in. Very dumb idead



It will also slowly but surely bring Open numbers down to make it the smallest division every weekend :(

a proposal is being made to the board to add another level of amateur golf:

Currently we have: Advanced, Intermediate, and Recreational.

The proposed new levels would be: Expert, Advanced, Intermediate, and Enthusiast.

I'm still hoping they'll change "Expert" to "Elite", and change "enthusiast" to anything else.

So when Bruce says there'll be no sandbagging in Advanced anymore, he's technically correct, as the new "Advanced" will have a ratings cap on it. Essentially, they've just attempted to rename what the current Advanced division is, and start calling it Expert, so in reality, nothing has really changed except the names of the levels, and the ratings breaks (slightly).


And nothing changes at all if the new board doesn;'t approve it.

Chap



I personally don't think there is room or a need to further expand the Am division.

I think GMs played Dretzka New for the semifinals. Didn't Masters play Dineen again?

I played w/ the ratings calculator (don't know which version) for the GMs alone and the avg was about 15 pts less than what you've got. I have no idea what that means. I prefer your version. :cool:



You are correct Damon, Bruce was wrong. (just like to point that out once in a while :D)

It will also slowly but surely bring Open numbers down to make it the smallest division every weekend :(



Turn that frown upside down K-mack. with the way this sport is growing the Pro field needs to eventually quite playing for each others entry fees and let TD's start to more aggressively pursue added cash to the pro purse. aka business and corporate sponsorship

He too must be cautious of NCAA obligations. Not sure what all he does, but he needs to maintain amature status to meet certain ncaa guidlines.

Mini Thumber



I agree! He JUST turned 15. What if in 3 years there are some schools offering disc golf scholarships. It would be a shame that we would not be eligible because he turned pro when he was 16...

I agree, there are too many as it is...

All that really needs to happen is a bit of good old fashion bagger bumping.... All we need is a bump rule. Ratings based, or otherwise. Break 970 and bye bye.... If a player then wants to stay with the Ams and still play in an event, we could then offer a celebrity division for them with no prizes. It won't be long and they will either stay am and play celeb, quit attending events altogether or go open.....

TD's start to more aggressively pursue added cash to the pro purse

which in turn will drive TD's away ;)

Yea, we wouldn't want them to have to go out and beat the streets. Its much easier to just take their profit from the Ams.

a proposal is being made to the board to add another level of amateur golf:

Currently we have: Advanced, Intermediate, and Recreational.

The proposed new levels would be: Expert, Advanced, Intermediate, and Enthusiast.

I'm still hoping they'll change "Expert" to "Elite", and change "enthusiast" to anything else.

So when Bruce says there'll be no sandbagging in Advanced anymore, he's technically correct, as the new "Advanced" will have a ratings cap on it. Essentially, they've just attempted to rename what the current Advanced division is, and start calling it Expert, so in reality, nothing has really changed except the names of the levels, and the ratings breaks (slightly).


And nothing changes at all if the new board doesn;'t approve it.

Chap



I personally don't think there is room or a need to further expand the Am division.



The theory is if you put a cap on Advanced, the player base that is above Advanced is small enough that they become a small division. The plastic won by the top of the division above Advanced won't be as much of an incentive to play the division and they will have more incentive to move up to pro. However, it gives players that want to play one more Am Worlds a division to play in until then.

a proposal is being made to the board to add another level of amateur golf:

Currently we have: Advanced, Intermediate, and Recreational.

The proposed new levels would be: Expert, Advanced, Intermediate, and Enthusiast.





Possibly the worst idea I have ever heard

So try this:
Amateur Elite: 970 and up
Advanced Amateur: 915 - 969
Advanced Amateur age protected: 969 and below
Intermediate Amateur: 914 and below
Novice Amateur: 875 and below

Possibly the worst idea I have ever heard

no I think the worst idea was amnesty :D



Yea, we wouldn't want them to have to go out and beat the streets. Its much easier to just take their profit from the Ams

whats stopping the players themselves from beating the streets. aren't they the ones tired of playing for entry fess :confused:

This is a great conversation, but could it please be transplanted to a new thread, as it does not pertain to the 2007 Am Worlds.
Thanks

Hey Matt let me know when you can mail back the KICKER Banners and their event goodies etc. We need to get the banners to Innova East for USDGC. Shoot me a PM how many you have left (including lanyards and pouches) and I will shoot you a ship to... Thanks again.

Joe

I mostly agree, but think thier should be a age specific split of 900 to seperate ADV GM, and AM GM. Only my selfish opinion, as my performance improves ever so slowly.

Mini Thumber

Hey Matt, do you know if any more pics will be posted from am worlds? the website says "more coming soon" or does anyone have any posted anywhere? Also will any of the tournament discs be available for purchase. Not the full color discs, just the candy plastic am world stamp. Thanks again for everything, we're all still on cloud nine here from the awesome experience. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Manny - if they scrounge up more tourney discs I'll pick one up for you as a token of appreciation for finding my wayward shoe in the middle of the road in Show Low!

Here are my 580 Pictures i took. They are not in order of when i took them, but it should be a great overview of what went on all week. 2007 Am Worlds Pictures! (http://share.shutterfly.com/action/welcome?sid=0CctmbdwxbsXJA)

As for discs left over, i know they had a "inventory night" last night since terry just got back from Pro Worlds. I would hope that he reads this thread and responds, as i am not sure whats all left. Otherwise you could e-mail him.

So try this:
Amateur Elite: 970 and up
Advanced Amateur: 915 - 969
Advanced Amateur age protected: 969 and below
Intermediate Amateur: 914 and below
Novice Amateur: 875 and below


As a hypercompetitive advanced player rated well below the Elite-Advanced cutoff I would like to say that I outright hate that idea. I do this for the competition, as a competitive outlet. I enjoy the chase and going after those big guns with high ratings in my division. It is a motivator.

Congrats Ziggy.......NOW the pressures on to WIN next year :D



But then there this kid here in the Northwest, that we call the "Chan-Man". ;)

If he stays AM he WILL be a contender next year... :D


I don't know if he accepted or not, but he took 3rd behind Critter Bill Themm and Marty Peters at the Flying Saucer Open this past weekend.

He didn't take the money

I received my patch today "yea" for the Edge skill shot competition. Who know's the order of precedenance on how they are worn. I think I should have a Bagger patch to put on top, Ill get one.

Thanks
Mini Thumber

I agree! He JUST turned 15. What if in 3 years there are some schools offering disc golf scholarships. It would be a shame that we would not be eligible because he turned pro when he was 16...

How many colleges have 'club' disc golf teams that participate against other schools? This has to happen for a number of years (and build up to very large proportions) before the NCAA sanctions the sport. I don't think anyone older than 2 has to worry about this...

He didn't take the money


interesting

I agree! He JUST turned 15. What if in 3 years there are some schools offering disc golf scholarships. It would be a shame that we would not be eligible because he turned pro when he was 16...

How many colleges have 'club' disc golf teams that participate against other schools? This has to happen for a number of years (and build up to very large proportions) before the NCAA sanctions the sport. I don't think anyone older than 2 has to worry about this...


Very common here in the NW Ohio/SE Michigan area. University of Toledo, where I'm Club Head, participated for the first time this past year. Thanks to our participation the series has actually grown from being the Michigan Intercollegiate Series to the Great Lakes Intercollegiate Series and I'm hoping to recruit the clubs from a couple of local colleges to increase its reach.

Hopefully UT will also be a part of the NCDGU Championships this year down in Georgia. We're excited about the prospect. Hopefully they have half a brain this time and don't schedule it against Ultimate Frisbee (UPA)'s district tournaments, really really dumb move.

But I do agree it will be a LONG time before there's an NCAA Sanctioned event. Frankly I hope it never happens, the NCAA does [censored] all but impose ridiculous sanctions on sports other than their cash cows (Football, Basketball) and their high profile sports (Baseball, Hockey, Golf, Track & Field).

He didn't take the money


interesting


I agree. Wonder if he was gauging what he could do, or if he really went into it thinking he might not cash?

he following the advice of some wise disc golf elders(and potential sponsers) to stay am.

Hopefully UT will also be a part of the NCDGU Championships this year down in Georgia. We're excited about the prospect. Hopefully they have half a brain this time and don't schedule it against Ultimate Frisbee (UPA)'s district tournaments, really really dumb move.

But I do agree it will be a LONG time before there's an NCAA Sanctioned event. Frankly I hope it never happens, the NCAA does [censored] all but impose ridiculous sanctions on sports other than their cash cows (Football, Basketball) and their high profile sports (Baseball, Hockey, Golf, Track & Field).




The NCDGU would learn much from the UPA in setting up a viable collegiate competition structure that doesn't have the iron-handedness of NCAA regulations.

Has it been determined yet where Am Worlds will be in 2009 after Kalamazoo?

Mini Thumber

I think I saw that KC has it.

Right....KC will have combined Pro/Am Worlds in '09

We plan on being there!!

I have a feeling that KC will be the Next IOWA...the worlds to model worlds after.

TD's start to more aggressively pursue added cash to the pro purse

which in turn will drive TD's away ;)


you really think so? i think that T.D.'s today are already moving in this direction. which is a good thing.

the worlds to model worlds after.



This is what kzoo is planning to achieve.

I would start now, and ID Hotels, 1 or 2 close to the course and rreserve rooms. I missed the other participants scattered all over Milwaukee.

Mini Thumber

I would start now, and ID Hotels, 1 or 2 close to the course and rreserve rooms. I missed the other participants scattered all over Milwaukee.

Mini Thumber



It would be good to announce the 2008 Worlds main host hotel this month. Start getting prime rooms a year in advance.

It would be good to announce the 2008 Worlds main host hotel this month. Start getting prime rooms a year in advance.


I 2nd that motion! I'll reserve mine this weekend if I know where. That will help y'all negotiate free meeting rooms, and such.

I agree with the hotel comments. I will book ASAP. Try to get one that eccepts pets.

2008 Worlds, as I understand it, is split between Kalamazoo AND Battle Creek (~20 miles apart).

I am sure they'll select a main host hotel, and potentially several alternative hotels.

Point being, there are MANY hotels in this area.

Hopefully UT will also be a part of the NCDGU Championships this year down in Georgia. We're excited about the prospect. Hopefully they have half a brain this time and don't schedule it against Ultimate Frisbee (UPA)'s district tournaments, really really dumb move.

But I do agree it will be a LONG time before there's an NCAA Sanctioned event. Frankly I hope it never happens, the NCAA does [censored] all but impose ridiculous sanctions on sports other than their cash cows (Football, Basketball) and their high profile sports (Baseball, Hockey, Golf, Track & Field).




The NCDGU would learn much from the UPA in setting up a viable collegiate competition structure that doesn't have the iron-handedness of NCAA regulations.


I agree. I've had experience with both settings. I've run Cross Country Regional Championships and dealt with the NCAA, and I've played in the UPA District Tournaments and dealt with the UPA, and the UPA was easily the better group of people to work with.

I agree with the hotel comments. I will book ASAP. Try to get one that eccepts pets.




Same here we missed a lot of friends this year. with somany hotels it was not the big happy family Tulsa was.

Then it should be a no brainer as long as we don't wait till April 2008 to figure it out.

Mini Thumber

will the round ratings be updated correctly?

I recommend copying how the staff at the 2004 Worlds in Des Moines had the hotel set up. Two major host hotels that are next to each other with one having the space for fly-mart, etc. See most of the hotel can be reserved and give the discount for the 9 day stay. It would be nice for those two hotels to throw a little sponsorship money to the 2008 Worlds.

If it is like past set ups, they will but it will be in free meeting rooms, free set ups, free staff rooms ect. The larger the number of booked nights the more the hotel can offer the tournamnet in freebees, which in turn is sponsorship. It greatly reduces the overhead expenses of the tournament.

What was the projected timeline for the DVD? I think that's pretty awesome that EVERYONE that played gets a DVD!
Thanks again to everyone that made 2007 AM Worlds happen.

Did anybody else feel the ratings were low for this event? I had seen a post earlier where somebody calculated the ratings for Masters and GM, and my ratings were MUCH MUCH lower than were listed there. I figured it might be somewhat different, but did I mention, they were MUCH MUCH lower.

Still no word on the DVD??

The DVD is close to being done. Thanks for the patience as we hope to get them to you in the next few weeks.
Lots of great stuff, to much actually.

Thanks! We had a great time in Milwaukee and are looking forward to seeing it.