way to go ROB LEE!!!

Greg Schwartz with the W in the playoff with McBeth, keepin the title in milwaukee, congrats



Great time to get his first sanctioned win.

Did anybody hear how they measured the holes?
Was it GPS, Laser, Tape Measure, Wheel, other

I just wanted to say the final nine and playoff in ADV men was some of the best golf I have seen in a long time! HUGE putts from everyone!!! Great golf. Congrats to all. JK and I had a great time this week.

Awesome showing from the MI crew with two world champs Mark Roberts in Adv Masters and The Bagger king under 16 world champ congrats fellas and nice showing from Jamie Mosier and Pat Burke way to represent the best disc golf state in the country. :) :cool: Wish i could have been there well there is always next year in my backyard. Kalamazoo MI

Congrats to David Wiggins Jr. and family. :D

The Pinetop/Show Low AZ contingent had a great showing! Nick Duran 1st in under 10 boys, Ken Swafford 3rd in Masters, Jack Wood 2nd in Grandmasters, and Dennis Webster 6th in Sr. Grandmasters. This hotbed of discgolf produced Paul Ulibarrri last year as Advanced champ. Looks like it's got competitors lined up for years to come.

Want to mention how impressed I was to see top pros--Juliana Korver, Barry Schultz, Shawn Sinclair and others--working the tournament. Saw Juliana cleaning teapads at Dineen, spotting during the rain on hole 12 (she helped show where my shot went OB :(), and just being a great ambassador for the sport. My hat is off to all of these folks for taking the time.

Congratulations Rob, Great Win!!!!!!!!! :)

Walter

Will the semi finals round get a rating too?

Time to start practicing K-Zoo!

Thanks Jake! - and everyone who called posted or emailed their support. Go NC disc golf! and all the great players from NC I got to watch.

Thanks from David and me to all the folks who helped make the world's another great experience for me and my whole family

Awesome showing from the MI crew with two world champs Mark Roberts in Adv Masters and The Bagger king under 16 world champ congrats fellas and nice showing from Jamie Mosier and Pat Burke way to represent the best disc golf state in the country.



You forgot Kelsey Brakel

and Kira Brakel... nice showing form MI!

Nice NC with 2 in top 10 for advanced. Great job Henry and P_Byrd

: ) :

Congrats to Greg on the win!!

Great showing Greg!!

Nice NC with 2 in top 10 for advanced. Great job Henry and P_Byrd

: ) :

Doesn't P_Byrd reside in the great state of Wisconsin now?

Nice NC with 2 in top 10 for advanced. Great job Henry and P_Byrd

: ) :

Doesn't P_Byrd reside in the great state of Wisconsin now?



Only for school - he's NC for sure

Nice NC with 2 in top 10 for advanced. Great job Henry and P_Byrd

: ) :

Doesn't P_Byrd reside in the great state of Wisconsin now?



he was born in WI but grew up NC, he's gone back for school. talked to him the other day and he is definitely representin Down East North Carolina.

: ) :

Looks like Pete May has tougher competition in Am SGM than Pro SGM!
Congrats to Rob Lee and Terry for dominating the ULTIMATE SANDBAGGER!

Donna Dennis #23869 from Troy Michigan, has won the Funjet Vacations INNColor Raffle and has received the (2) round trip seats to Cancun, Mexico! Thank you for everyone that participated. All proceeds from this fund raiser were put directly into the 2007 Am Worlds!
Thanks Again!

Jon,

It appears the round ratings for the Juniors may be off. Nick shot an 88 at Brown Deer and it was rated at 491, while my (stellar) 82 was at 670.

Thanks,

Steve

Rob Lee. This is Mark Bowman. Congats Dude :D. YOU SO TOTALLY ROCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Jon,

It appears the round ratings for the Juniors may be off. Nick shot an 88 at Brown Deer and it was rated at 491, while my (stellar) 82 was at 670.

Thanks,

Steve



All of the ratings are off because of the shuffles. Well, maybe not every round, but it's not fully tweaked yet. For example, 57 at Brown Deer is not a 919 round.

Steve, all the round ratings are "temporary". Until the PDGA fixes the a few things that need to be done for the Am Worlds, consider them wrong. I would assume that sometime after Pro Worlds, all of the ratings will get fixed. But, most of their efforts this week will be focused on Highbridge this week.

I hope that everyone had a good time at Am Worlds this week!

Jon,

I figured that. Just wanted to make sure someone was aware.

That was one of the best times both me and my son has had.

Thanks to all of the volunteers, spotters, scoring officials and all others who took the time to make this tournament successful.

Steve Enk

Will the semis be rated for the advanced division? There was a full field and it would be nice to get the ratings added. Thanks.

I honestly don't know about round ratings for the semis. That is something you would have to ask someone like Dave Gentry. I would have thought that they would be, because it is a normal round with a full field. But, I can't say for sure.

Nice NC with 2 in top 10 for advanced. Great job Henry and P_Byrd

: ) :

Doesn't P_Byrd reside in the great state of Wisconsin now?



he was born in WI but grew up NC, he's gone back for school. talked to him the other day and he is definitely representin Down East North Carolina.

: ) :

/msgboard/images/graemlins/ooo.gif Oh, that's how it works. When I met him back in April he said he was from Madison. Although he did go on to mention his Carolina roots.

Never knew I was in such high demand. I'm applying for dual citizenship... DEP for life and sporting UW Badger red. Thanks for the support Rob, Max, Jay, and anyone else who's helped me develop as a player.

Additionally, congrats to Greg, awesome win man. It's been great getting to know you on the WI Tour and play alongside you at Am Nats and Am Worlds. You played solidly all week and showed real grit in the finals to stave off some great play from Paul, John, and Alan.

Thanks to my girlfriend Katie for carrying my bag all week and to Jeremy for the double Ds. Support a good guy, check out Dynamic Discs on eBay. Big thanks to all the staff as well, Worlds couldn't happen without you all.

Way to go P Byrd! (I was pulling for you on the GVDG thread) :) Hopefully you can make it down to the DEPC.

Rob Lee - way to go man!

Nice job Patrick. In some sense it doesn't matter where you came from or where you live now (except for the ability to practice the courses) it's all in how you play the game. :cool:

I just thought it was neat that your friends back in NC were claiming you when you've been back here for awhile.

See you at Mad City.

Jay

Awesome showing from the MI crew with two world champs Mark Roberts in Adv Masters and The Bagger king under 16 world champ congrats fellas and nice showing from Jamie Mosier and Pat Burke way to represent the best disc golf state in the country.



You forgot Kelsey Brakel

Kelsey and Kira were both in a car wreck three weeks ago, two weeks before the tournament. Kelsey played with considerable pain all week. I don't think she could have played better healthy. I was very impressed with her determination, not to mention her 58 at Brown Deer.

Does anyone know when the unofficial ratings will get unscrewed?

Looks like Pete May has tougher competition in Am SGM than Pro SGM!
Congrats to Rob Lee and Terry for dominating the ULTIMATE SANDBAGGER!



Which, of course - :cool:- totally eliminates the usefulness of the "sandbagger" appellation.

:cool:thanks jon



I took 579 pictures on Saturday and I've uploaded about 50 so far. I'll probably just leave it run all night to finish uploading. I wanted to take more pics of the AM1 finals but my back was hurting too bad to do it.

C'mon Nate Fellows and Chris Hoeg...under 13 is the only division I am watching! :D

ME 2 Bradley, Wiggins and Coggin are some Cackalackian youngsters who R going to be the Players of tomorrow, from the NC



I would love to see a video of these guys going at it...Where is Billy when you need him?



Just got home an hour ago. I was going to say some thank you's first but when I read your post tyson. I had to reply. The U13 was some of the most intense Disc Golf I have ever watched.

Andrew is pleased with the third spot. The World Doubles title and to play on the saturday is all he wanted.

The first ever JR/AM worlds Video will be out real soon.

Thank Brian, Thanks Tyson.

Those NC boys may be the players of the future... but what about Ziggy, at 15 the player of the future is **** good now!

Go MI.

First Thanks to Team japan you guys made this look and feel like a World Championship.

Andrew and I would like to thank Kyler and Dylan for chasing and pushing Andrew to play harder and better.

Chris, great job at your first World championship. I can't wait to see you and your father at the Tarheel next year. and at Worlds 08.

Thanks to the Fellows "father and son" I'm so glade Andrew and I got to know the two of you better this year.

Rocky and Dawn. How much fun was this! BigRock You always make it more than fun. Dawn, Great shooting. this is why I'm your biggest fan.

David Jr What can I say couldn't be happer or prouder of you. You and Andrew may be the world Doubles Champ's but you two are going down this year at cedarLake.

David Sr. What Can I say. Thanks on several holes your inspiring words helped Andrew more than Any thing I could have said. Thanks for all you did for the Coggin Family.

Eddie, Same goes for you. You knew what to say at the right time. you really helped Andrew.

Thanks to all those unnamed you made this a great experience for all that attended.

Nice job Patrick. In some sense it doesn't matter where you came from or where you live now (except for the ability to practice the courses) it's all in how you play the game. :cool:

I just thought it was neat that your friends back in NC were claiming you when you've been back here for awhile.

See you at Mad City.

Jay



Patrick will always be one of us...You would call him a local if you saw him shoot our courses! :eek:

Great Shootin' Dude!

Go Pro. Graduate. Come Back. Dominate.

I want to say thanks to Terry and his crew for putting on an excellent event. I had a great time even though I didn't play as well as I'd hoped.

I finally got to a computer to to check Field events and was confused about the lack of MM1 in all events except distance. I know I was check off the list in minigolf and EDGE skillshot as MM1 but see no MM1 listings as I'm grouped in with the MA1 guys. I was just curious how I fared against my fellow division competitors :confused:

PS I hope all the spotters enjoyed the TX minis :cool:

2007 Am Worlds Pictures (http://share.shutterfly.com/action/welcome?sid=0CctmbdwxbsXJA)

Here are my 580 Pictures i took. They are not in order of when i took them, but it should be a great overview of what went on all week.

Thanks Wyatt,

Especially for all the times you have been there to take David to and from playing when I had to work, which I'm sure, contributed in no small part to his success

Special note to Eddie Garmon from NC. Next year is YOUR year. We all know what you can do.

Congrats to the winners and everyone who made it possible!!

Way to go Rob Lee, Am Senior GM Champ. Windjammers are as proud a s possible. Congrats

WINDRIDERS are also very proud of you Rob :DCongrats to the Brooks boys also!!!

Congratulations Rob Lee! And Congratulations also to Pat Stalllman (from College Station) for being the Adv.Gr.Masters Women's Champion! Two Titles for Texas.
:D:D :)

Good fight Anthony, and Greg Brooks too! We're proud of you both :)

Plus all the rest of those great Texas disc golfers. Woo Hoo :D

Good fight Anthony, and Greg Brooks too! We're proud of you both :)

And Paige Pierce Too! Very close to 2nd, and did a good job holding onto 3rd. :D

All my Worlds pix are up in the Discontinuum Gallery. The ones from Saturday are there in their original 8MP sizes so if you want to print, crop, zoom in, use as computer wallpaper, etc. its available without asking me. If you are going to publish some where please ask me first. To get the large size, click on the thumbnail pic then click on the bigger pic that opens. Finally right click on the huge pic and select save picture. http://discontinuum.org/index.php?option=com_gallery2&Itemid=45&g2_itemId= 165438

� our governing body should now consider something I proposed a long time ago � the real deal � an �Amateur World Championships� Event �
.
.
� Players� desire seems to be there �
.
� Attendance would be there �
.
� for about 81 other reasons that I won�t delve into here �n� now ;
.
� this Sport and Players deserve it ...
.
... you likin' the numbers now ?
.
... you wanna see 'em grow exponentially ?
.
... from the "grass-roots" level ?
.
.
... do it ...
.
.
.
� so , annually there would be
> Pro World Championships
> Advanced World Championships
> Amateur World Championships
.
.
.
.
... it would work ... :cool:

Great week of disc golf! Thanks to Terry, the sponsors, the volunteers and the PDGA. Congrats to all the winners, especially Greg!


One complaint- Bag Tags! Cost 20$ and only a few prizes were given away. Did Innova sponsor the bag tags?

I wish that more people would have got in on tags. Other than my 4-5 friends that bought tags, I only had 1 other person on a card that had a tag. Maybe next time (K-Zoo), tags can be included in the players pack.

Thanks again to Terry and everyone involved with the 07 Am Worlds!

WOW, made it back. Did not go through Chicago, so I still have some energy. Special thanks to Wyatt (Shamrock), Big Wig for just being there. It couldn't have peaked in fun with out you. Man am I proud of the Carolinians. Nor sure how many awards yet, but it seems the name Carolina came up quite often. Lil Cog, and LIl Wig, you guy's rock. A definite duo to contend with. How proud of my CupcAce am I, very. World Amature U16 Girls Champion, and Long distance Drive Champion. Yes I wish I through like a girl, 312 ft, in those conditions, Yes indeed, I wish I through like a girl. Bagger will be back, until then. We now rest

Mini Thumber, proud member of team FFF

congrats to all the winners...thanks matt and jon for the pics

congrats to all the winners...thanks matt and jon for the pics



You're welcome. Check out pictures 4166 thru 4172 for a nice long putt hit by one of the jr guys at this link at Discontinuum: http://discontinuum.org/index.php?option...&g2_page=12 (http://discontinuum.org/index.php?option=com_gallery2&Itemid=45&g2_itemId= 174737&g2_page=12)
Use the slide show feature at 1 sec per pic for a cool way to view it.

� our governing body should now consider something I proposed a long time ago � the real deal � an �Amateur World Championships� Event �
.
.
� Players� desire seems to be there �
.
� Attendance would be there �
.
� for about 81 other reasons that I won�t delve into here �n� now ;
.
� this Sport and Players deserve it ...
.
... you likin' the numbers now ?
.
... you wanna see 'em grow exponentially ?
.
... from the "grass-roots" level ?
.
.
... do it ...
.
.
.
� so , annually there would be
> Pro World Championships
> Advanced World Championships
> Amateur World Championships
.
.
.
.
... it would work ... :cool:


.
.
.
... imagine > PDGA directors and shakers : would you prefer tens-of-thousands of "current-and-active Players" -or- to remain sedentary with our ten-of-thousand ? ...
.
... ( think about it ) ...

The tournament already exists. It is called Mid Nationals.

The Tour de Rizbee continues but is now on the return leg - that's right - WE'RE STILL PLAYING!!!!

Check out the latest at http://teamrizbee.com/blog.html

We need to go back and fill in details about previous days, but you can see a taste of the current.

42 courses, 754 holes so far!!!!!!!!!

The tournament already exists. It is called Mid Nationals.



What he said.

Why did the payout suck so bad?

The PDGA needs to really look after the womens divisions. Next time try kicking some extras their way besides a players package that they pay for.

Good Job Paige!!! come out to the mini Wednesday night, maybe you can win more than you got at worlds.

Friends,

Just a quick reminder that we will be doing a Live Webcast from Highbridge Wed, Thurs, Fri, and Sat beginning at 5 pm local time (6 pm Eastern).

You can access the live Webcast from PDGA Pro Worlds WEBCAST page (http://www.audiosportsonline.net/PDGA/Broadcast.htm) .

I'll also be online with this message board if you have any questions. Tomorrow's lineup will be posted later today.

Thanks for your support.
John D.

Why did the payout suck so bad?

Because instead of adding the sponsorship to the event value, they did PDGA minimum payouts and deducted the full value of the player pack from the payouts. Basically, they kept the value of the sponsorship for themselves. Usually the discs in the players pack are donated. Deducting from the payout for donated stuff is pretty slimy. Whenever we get sponsored stuff for the IOS we add that to what we had planned rather than subtracting it and pocketing the difference.

Next time try kicking some extras their way



are you saying give the women extra stuff?

The breakout of where all the money we took in was posted with the payouts.
They got a players pack worth well over what they paid in the first place. I would say, they broke even by just signing up. Not to mention a free pizza party, innova players party, free beer at the flymart and a final 9 that was out of this world.

Too bad greed seems to have gotten in the way.........again.

Then they wonder why folks are fed up with the current situation and direction PDGA is apparently going.

Give us reasons to reconsider, not confirm our opinions. I thought this was supposed to be about "the players" and not a desire to sell us down the river.

Pretty large assumptions there.
Did you help do the payout for the event?
Does your IOS events have all the extras a Am worlds event does?
Comparing a C-Tier to a Major is not fair comparison.

The breakout of where all the money we took in was posted with the payouts.
They got a players pack worth well over what they paid in the first place. I would say, they broke even by just signing up. Not to mention a free pizza party, innova players party, free beer at the flymart and a final 9 that was out of this world.



Free pizza and beer????? I'm sure everyone travelled all that way for that. Wow, and what if your allergic? :o

And we all know that most of a players pack isn't stuff going into your bag anyway. Just more things for raffle donation in the year to come.

and what happens if you dont like pizza and are not old enought to drink?? oh yea you get screwed....

What more do players want?
you paid a bit over $100 to get a awesome players pack, and 6 rounds of disc golf along with munerous other activites. Its a great value, and they paid out very deep into the field in all divisions.

The fact is, the payout was based on $24 per player. We paid $110 to play. The player pack was three discs, a polo and a small disc golf bag. The player pack was arguably worth the entry fee if you throw those three discs, wear dark blue polos, and need a small bag.

One player at the event who also runs tournaments mentioned to me that it looked like a "big money grab." All I could do was agree and explain that we expected that going in, based on who was running the thing. Neither the PDGA nor Terry Miller has a reputation for generosity with amateurs.

The stingy payouts were a big damper on what was otherwise an enjoyable week. If this is the PDGA's plan for 2008 Worlds, I won't be volunteering in any capacity there.

I would suggest (as an innocent bystander that did not play Worlds) that anyone (including my brother) that has a problem with how Worlds was run should shoot an e-mail or place a call to Terry Miller and/or David Gentry. I don't know how arguing about the worth of a player's pack on this message board is going to change any one's opinion or be constructive criticism for future events.

Communicating with Terry might help explain why something was done. Communicating with David might help the PDGA to provide what the players want at Worlds in the future.

Free beer does nothing for me. If it's donated by a local brewery, that's great. But spending tournament money for "free" beer is a waste in my book since not all tournament entrants get value for it.

I would suggest (as an innocent bystander that did not play Worlds) that anyone (including my brother) that has a problem with how Worlds was run should shoot an e-mail or place a call to Terry Miller and/or David Gentry. I don't know how arguing about the worth of a player's pack on this message board is going to change any one's opinion or be constructive criticism for future events.

Communicating with Terry might help explain why something was done. Communicating with David might help the PDGA to provide what the players want at Worlds in the future.

... what they want is something they've never "truly" had : an Amateur World Championship Event ... c'mon , PDGA thinkers >>> go after the masses ...

Communicating with David might help the PDGA to provide what the players want at Worlds in the future.



How about....

Players packs valued at wholesale, instead of retail, especially if items are donated. I think CHARGING players retail for player packs is BS.

How does this sound?:

Want a chance at an amateur world title?
Then you HAVE TO BUY $80 worth of stuff you may not want. You DONT HAVE AN OPTION! Yay we make lots of money!

Ok, I can understand your concerns. Answer these questions for me-
How much did we pay for Uline Soccer Complex?
How much did we pay for the 3 parks for the week?
What about staff accommodations etc?
What about staff food and beverage all week?
What about course prep? I alone spent hundreds of dollars on the prep I did from Friday to Monday. That�s not to mention the thousands before that.
What about the rentals of the boat house at Brown Deer, and the house at Dretzka?
How much did we pay for the pizza?
What about the direct hit flags on the baskets?
There are many more expenses that I cannot even think of, this is just a start.

Its very hard to grasp for many people, but running such a large event like this is very difficult. I do not claim to know every expense of this event, as I did not work on the financials. But I will tell you one thing, Terry and the PDGA were committed to running a event that everyone would enjoy. I do not get it where people think he was greedy! I do not think he slept the week before the event, which sure does not sound like greed to me.

Instead of bashing him, give contrastive criticism. Example:
I do not drink beer, this is not appealing to me. I would have rather had free _____________?
The pizza party was not that fun, instead I think____________would be a great idea!
I love the player�s packs, but I think we should have had less in them and more to the payout!

Thanks!

What about staff accommodations etc?
What about staff food and beverage all week

huh they should be paying for that just like the players???? wow I want to staff next year if everything is free :confused:

I would suggest (as an innocent bystander that did not play Worlds) that anyone (including my brother) that has a problem with how Worlds was run should shoot an e-mail or place a call to Terry Miller and/or David Gentry. I don't know how arguing about the worth of a player's pack on this message board is going to change any one's opinion or be constructive criticism for future events.

Communicating with Terry might help explain why something was done. Communicating with David might help the PDGA to provide what the players want at Worlds in the future.

... what they want is something they've never "truly" had : an Amateur World Championship Event ... c'mon , PDGA thinkers >>> go after the masses ...



Go start a thread called "I want to invent Mid Nationals" and talk about this. Get a clue...the tournament already exists. If you want to help promote it to the masses, your help would be appreciated, I'm sure. In this forum most of us already know the event exists. While you're at it, Al, go invent the internet so that we have some place to keep our idiots happy!

Since the PDGA and any club responsible for running an event such as AM Worlds should be a non-profit organization, the public has the right to review all financial records for those organizations. I will be sending an email requesting such financial records. I suggest everyone else who was concerned with the distribution of payout should do the same.

It also has to be stated that this free beer was Wood Chuck Cider. Not really a top pick of beer drinkers anyway.

The fact is, the payout was based on $24 per player. We paid $110 to play.



BIG HOWDY!!!!???!!!!

I'm not sure how the payout in Tulsa was last year but the $24 payout per player with a $110 entry fee is completely absurd. Sounds like the payout for a B Tier except your paying half the entry (?).

Since the PDGA and any club responsible for running an event such as AM Worlds should be a non-profit organization, the public has the right to review all financial records for those organizations. I will be sending an email requesting such financial records. I suggest everyone else who was concerned with the distribution of payout should do the same.



I don't that non-profit is a criteria, is it? And "not for profit" doesn't mean money isn't made and paid to those involved. Just no money left at the end.

And ask Corporate America.............cooking the books to reflect what you want the public to see isn't too hard these days anyway.

I remember that at the 2004 worlds we got a really nice players pack and I placed 50 and got over 100 payout and the entry that year I believe was 100. But that was then this is now.

Everyone is complaining about payout. Maybe next time we should just give the winners thousands of dollars worth of merch, and have no players party, no players pack, no extras of any kind. I bet you the person who did not cash at all would have LOVED that option. In addition, we should not bring in experienced people to help run the event. We should have a bunch of rookies run the event. We should run the event on courses that are run down, with beat up baskets, uncut grass, no spotters etc.
I think that would go over real well with the players.
I heard at least 200 people thank me and our staff for the work we did all week, and just because a few people on this board have issues, I will not let you down play the work we did to pull this event off. You can run all the poles you want, and question everything that is done, but until you are behind the scenes, you have no validity to go from.
Yes, I am getting defensive, because our club, the GLDGC, and many other people put in work on this for over the past 2 years to prep the courses, the event etc.

If you still have an issue with our worlds, I would HIGHLY suggest you and your club put in the bid for the worlds and see how easy it is.

Thanks to those who helped on the event and i am glad that most people enjoyed the event.

Navy polo..................obviously none of those folks ever play in the south in the summer. :D ;) :D

A question that just sprung up in my head was about the Innova Player's Party. Other than the the banner out front, I didn't see anything inside. I wasn't there the whole time, did they do anything else there? (please don't correlate the way this conversation is turning with me talking down about Innova...just wondering here)

What about staff accommodations etc?
What about staff food and beverage all week

huh they should be paying for that just like the players???? wow I want to staff next year if everything is free :confused:



Car Pooling to K-ZOO!? :D

I'm In !!! :cool:

but until you are behind the scenes, you have no validity to go from.




True dat.

Let me start out by saying I had a great time at Worlds and would highly recommend it to anyone thinking about going. That being said, I did find the end of the tournament to be a bit perturbing. Getting 9th place and getting slightly more then my money back was a surprise. But equally surprising was that there was no plastic for me to buy. I didn't walk away with a single disc that I throw. I quickly grabbed two DX discs (since it was apparent that it was that or nothing), and every medium dry-fit shirt left. Why wasn't there a TON of plastic for people to buy. It was obvious how much script was going out, there should have been more then enough merchandise for people to buy. Instead everyone I know was buying items they didn't have a use for just to use their script. I also thought it tacky to have two tables that had been ransacked of script items and then four tables of items you could pay for right next to it.

I know that that all sounds very negative. Let me restate that I had a great time playing the courses and I recommend everyone to go who has the opportunity. I also see areas that could use some definite improvement.

At least you had fun, that's almost all that matters.

Come to Michigan next year. Our sponsor list is getting longer every day, and we still have a year to go.

We also have zero intention of making any money, it kind of goes along the lines of "The Best Worlds Ever"

Wow I don't understand any of these complaints!!! I wish we would follow the ball golf model and not give anything but medals. It should be changed from an "entry fee" to a "application fee". In case anyone is interested here is the link to the USGA 107th us amateur championships. link (http://www.usga.org/championships/apply_to_play/forms/usam.pdf)

Their application fee is $125 and first, second, and third get medals. There is no payout at all. hmmmmmm......

As an amateur you should be playing for the love/fun of the game. Do you really go to the Am world championships for the payout???

In addition so what if the td/club wants to make some money. Should they work for almost two years and then take two plus weeks off from work to make this event happen just so you guys can get on this board and complain? I think every td/club that runs a major event should get some kind of compensation.

Once again WOW!!! I don't get it it.

free beer



nuff said

<font color="brown"> IT only took 100+ pages for someone to make a good post such as mr sinclair's

Quit bellyachin. </font>

Comparing disc golf to ball golf is a waste of time. It would be foolish to give medals to the top 3 disc golfers of an AM Championship. What does 4th-30th get, nothing? What sense does that make?

How much profit was made?

I'm not voicing my opinion either way on the matter...just want to say that my am worlds I got 26th and I got like 120 in merch....JJ won and got a basket and 300 - 400 in merch.

The demographics of disc golfers versus ball golfers says it all. Medals just won't cut it. Players like to get something in return for their good play. Players packs are great, but 90% of the time you won't use the disc(s) you received in the players pack.

Even if you get last place cash it's still a good feeling walking into the pro shop and picking out a disc to take home with you.

pdga of the future is screw the ams with their payout so they will move up or quit playing.. kinda like what the KCWO tried a few years back :confused:

Thanks Shawn for reassuring our thoughts. You and Juliana were great helps all week long and your help was much appreciated.

what do expect with a pro running Am Worlds?

"As an amateur you should be playing for the love/fun of the game."

ultimate copout answer! How many of the participants were attending a school event? none

If it was for charity, which it shouldn't have been, I could understand the payouts.

Oh, I don't know, Shawn. I threw tantrums all the way through Chicago on the way home because my "payout" was so low . . . NOT!

Where do these folks come from? Here's something for the whiners (http://www.cheaptherapy.net/imagelib/sitebuilder/misc/show_image.html?linkedwidth=actual&amp;linkpath=http://cheaptherapy.net/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/WHINE2.jpg&amp;target=tlx_new), just in case they forgot to pack some to take home :D

Where do these folks come from?



My guess is they come from all walks of life...you can't make everyone happy you know.

when the financial report comes out you won't hear any more complaints.

when the financial report comes out you won't hear any more complaints.



Now that is FUNNY!!! you made me fall out of my chair MC. How long until that report is available?????? :o

The fact is, the payout was based on $24 per player. We paid $110 to play.



BIG HOWDY!!!!???!!!!

I'm not sure how the payout in Tulsa was last year but the $24 payout per player with a $110 entry fee is completely absurd. Sounds like the payout for a B Tier except your paying half the entry (?).

That is a fact, though. They had the payout calculations taped to the wall. I took the number of players in each division and divided it by the total payout to the division it came out to about $24 each time. I copied down the numbers on the back of a mini and did the math. I've got the mini.

Meanwhile, Matt Brock's hypothetical questions are kind of strange. In what sense was the Milwaukee County Parks a sponsor if they were charging you for use of all the parks? I had heard several months ago that all the courses had to be in the Milwaukee County Parks system because they were not charging park use fees. And why would you deduct from the singles for a park use fee at the field games when the people using that facility paid separate entry fees for the field games? That's just smoke and mirrors accounting.

Meanwhile, don't tell me that since I have not run a Major, I don't know squat. Your expenses are the same as mine, just on a larger scale. When you run five hundred players you get better economies of scale, better prices on merch, more sponsorship, etc. Lombard last year was about 40% the size of Am Worlds, 40% the number of players, 40% the entry fee, 40% the number of days, a lot less than 40% the sponsorship [We got 100 free discs and 200 free t-shirts.] Once we counted in the cost of Hot Rags sponsored stuff, we had done 200% amateur payouts. If our entry fees were 2.5 times what they were and if our player numbers were 2.5 times what they were, that's 6.25 times as much money to pay for fixed costs that are only 2.5 times bigger. On top of all that, we didn't charge $17 for a disc we bought for $5.

If you don't want to prolong your pain, quit trying to defend what you did. I'm just explaining it to that girl from Texas who asked.

You did a nice job getting the courses trimmed and clean. Scorecards with correct distances were a nice touch. The leaderboards got out to the courses early and scores got up on line in a timely way. You did a lot of things right. You should leave it at that and not try to defend the rest, because what she said about the rest is true. Ben, too.

As to Shawn's comment, this ain't the USGA buddy. What they do is their tradition; what we're doing is ours! :D

A question that just sprung up in my head was about the Innova Player's Party. Other than the the banner out front, I didn't see anything inside. I wasn't there the whole time, did they do anything else there? (please don't correlate the way this conversation is turning with me talking down about Innova...just wondering here)

I heard that Innova was a no-show for their own event. I was a no-show too. None of the evening festivities really worked with having to get up for 8:00 a.m. rounds almost every day. But it really makes me wonder what the Innova Am Worlds fundraiser disc was all about. I'm sure they raised funds, but for what purpose? I'm glad I did not participate in that as a vendor.

I'm not voicing my opinion either way on the matter...just want to say that my am worlds I got 26th and I got like 120 in merch....JJ won and got a basket and 300 - 400 in merch.



You'rs was the last of its kind under the current system.
And as long as the PDGA is the sanctiong body that has approval over the tournaments budget and selects the tournament venues, the trend will continue.
Payouts have gone down every year and the trend will contiue. It would appear that the goal of the PDGA is to eliminate Am payouts all together.

As for all of the opinions given about the tournament, they have tournament evaluation forms that are sent out ofter the event for feedback. Contact the PDGA and request one. Supposedly, this is what they use to make futuer tournaments better. ;)

How much profit was made?



I'll bet that the Sheraton Four Points made at least $30 a day profit out of me. The heck with them, anyway, why didn't they just provide the room for free? The maids just work for tips anyway, right? I mean, it's outrageous, I paid $110 for an entry fee and I had to also pay for a hotel room!!!!!

Worst of all . . . the tolls coming through and north of Chicago. I kept trying to explain to them that I had already paid my $110 entry fee, but they made me give them all my quarters!!!!!

always being terry :confused:

Everyone should get over it! If you have REAL issues with payouts, financials, etc etc, please contact Terry or PDGA. I am done trying to answer your questions. As a pure volunteer, it is really discouraging for me to listen to this and try to defend the event I put hundreds and hundreds of hours into. NEWSFLASH! I made $0 from this event, and am proud of it!

hey, when you dont have an argument that makes sense, you might as well try to muddy the waters. :)

Ams should play for trophys only, it would save the people who run these events a lot of time and the complaining wouldn't happen either. If you want to play for prizes (money) play Pro Worlds, even then, if you aren't finishing in the top 5-10% you aren't going to net much of a profit anyway.......if you aren't playing for the love of the game, I don't know why you are playing.

Instead of bashing him, give contrastive criticism. Example:
I do not drink beer, this is not appealing to me. I would have rather had free ROOT BEER?
Thanks!



I don't drink, so I'm always looking for some quality alternatives (other than water). I really dig Sprecher's from the tap. Hmmm... If I was thinking, I should have coerced Paige and Kelsey into illegal activity and moved up two places. Nah, I could never do that. All you Texas and Michigan golfers should be proud of those two women. They are two awesome players with great attitudes.

"Ams should play for trophys only"...

a very fast way to kill the PDGA would be to make all Ams play for trophy only. some Ams might like it, but plenty of nsanctioned events would pop up immediately and the exodus would be underway

Ams should play for trophys only, it would save the people who run these events a lot of time and the complaining wouldn't happen either. If you want to play for prizes (money) play Pro Worlds, even then, if you aren't finishing in the top 5-10% you aren't going to net much of a profit anyway.......if you aren't playing for the love of the game, I don't know why you are playing.



A message from a Pro who wants our am entry fees in the pro purse. :o ;) :o

hey, when you dont have an argument that makes sense, you might as well try to muddy the waters.



R U trying to make a point? I can't hear, water's muddy. :cool:

I made $0 from this event, and am proud of it!


so Matt you got no discs not shirts no towels nothing?? way to go .. good job



All you Texas and Michigan golfers should be proud of those two women

we are here in TEXAS

How much profit was made?



I'll bet that the Sheraton Four Points made at least $30 a day profit out of me. The heck with them, anyway, why didn't they just provide the room for free? The maids just work for tips anyway, right? I mean, it's outrageous, I paid $110 for an entry fee and I had to also pay for a hotel room!!!!!

Worst of all . . . the tolls coming through and north of Chicago. I kept trying to explain to them that I had already paid my $110 entry fee, but they made me give them all my quarters!!!!!



I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about

I thought I would catch up with what happened at AM Worlds. Sorry to see the lack of satisfaction. Ask yourself again why it was that you saved up your money and time to trek to Milwaukee? Dig really deep and think about your current disc golf game and where you see yourself.
You might be answering a lot of different ways:
--See old friends from across the country, even World
--Visit a new state and take some vacation
--Play against a bunch of like skilled competitors
--Win a World Championship

If you answered--To pay $110 and expected to at least triple that back in merchandise and it better be stuff wanted or needed, please turn Professional because you are thinking like one.

It is AMATEUR sports folks. We could argue about the definition all day, but the truth of the matter is that you all paid $110 for an experience and nothing more. I hear the the Milwaukee crew worked their tails off to make your experience most satisfying. heck they started off giving your entry back to you whether you wanted the stuff or not.

I know it is tough to fight all week long and get a Top Ten finish and not get what you feel you deserve. BUT, all the merch you could have won will be here today and gone tomorrow. Your finish, you can be proud of for a lifetime.

Congrats to all of the Champions and those that played like 'em

As my buddy says "the Ams are the future of the sport", but it seems they get screwed all the time.

Can the word Amateur be removed from the title so this argument can stop?

Nobody is asking for a payout of thousands of dollars, just one that is commensurate with the scope of the tournament. It would seem to me that a bigger tournament (550 entrants) should equal bigger payout (B tier?).

Or is it because the AMs may literally start making more than the pros because the pros cannot hook a major sponsor?

"
--See old friends from across the country, even World
--Visit a new state and take some vacation
--Play against a bunch of like skilled competitors
"

dont need to go to "Am Worlds" to do any of that. hopefully those arent the core of the event's value proposition

screwed in what? Your payout? Am's should be playing for a trophy ONLY, you want a better payout play pro.

This is what has become of AM players due to the current PDGA structure clouding all of your minds thinking you are entitled to a payout that is equivalent to what you pay in, but they are AMS...look up the definition of Amateur someday.

As my buddy says "the Ams are the future of the sport", but it seems they get screwed all the time.



I think the reality of it is the PDGA wants growth. Less AM payout equals more money for the PDGA. More money for the PDGA equals more growth. I hope we all see the benefit of this, especially paying members.

screwed in what? Your payout? Am's should be playing for a trophy ONLY, you want a better payout play pro.

This is what has become of AM players due to the current PDGA structure clouding all of your minds thinking you are entitled to a payout that is equivalent to what you pay in, but they are AMS...look up the definition of Amateur someday.



I have no problem with Trophy only...but trophy only for a $110 entry fee seems a bit ludacris.

I have an innocent question that I really don't know the answer to. Does any of the money accumulated at Am Worlds go to Pro Worlds (either directly or indirectly)? I've heard different answers, and I'm a little confused by what is true or not.

hopefully those arent (sic) the core of the event's value proposition



Actually, Pat, they are at the core of the value proposition for Am Worlds.

I think you may have hit upon the distinction between you and I that makes the most sense.

Worst of all . . . the tolls coming through and north of Chicago. I kept trying to explain to them that I had already paid my $110 entry fee, but they made me give them all my quarters!!!!!



Hey Terry, if its any consolation, I used to throw 50 cents out my window every 5 miles when I'd drive through Michigan to Bruce's house...just out of respect of all the Michiganers who pay tolls in Illinois. I stopped once I got the I-Pass. I figure if Michigan wants my 50 cents they can put up the electronic gateways that take money off my account!

screwed in what? Your payout? Am's should be playing for a trophy ONLY, you want a better payout play pro.



Kmac, I have to argue.
"SHould play for trophy only"
Maybe that would be the best way to do it. I would disagree.
Either way, that is NOT the system that is set up right now. People did NOT pay $110 for a trophy, they expect to get paid out in merch because that is what the present system IS, not should be. If you want to hold a trophy only Am tournament, good luck, noone's going to show. Not only that, if the system was changed to trophy only, a bunch of Ams would move up and the rest would quit. Then what's the motivation for a TD?
No Am payouts= No profits for a tournament= no more tournaments.

Can the word Amateur be removed from the title so this argument can stop?



Gotta admit, you made me laugh.


am�a�teur

1. A person who engages in an art, science, study, or athletic activity as a pastime rather than as a profession.

2. Sports. An athlete who has never accepted money, or who accepts money under restrictions specified by a regulatory body, for participating in a competition


.... of course i thought it meant bad quality video of wannabe models. :D

Preach on Mr. Reading, Preach on!

I am sure all of the people who played great golf, will remember the good times and what place they finished, not what they did with that ESP Buzz they won.
I remember taking 22nd place in 1998 Am Worlds. I was in the lead after the first day in my pool. It was one of my most memorable days I ever had, walking into the hotel seeing my name on top, after all, I was only 16. I have no clue what I had won for 22nd , but I still remember the good times I had at that event after all of these years. That is what worlds is about, playing golf and meeting new people. After all, it is a WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP!
Congrats to all the new Champs!

I thought I would catch up with what happened at AM Worlds. Sorry to see the lack of satisfaction. Ask yourself again why it was that you saved up your money and time to trek to Milwaukee? Dig really deep and think about your current disc golf game and where you see yourself.
You might be answering a lot of different ways:
--See old friends from across the country, even World
--Visit a new state and take some vacation
--Play against a bunch of like skilled competitors
--Win a World Championship

If you answered--To pay $110 and expected to at least triple that back in merchandise and it better be stuff wanted or needed, please turn Professional because you are thinking like one.

It is AMATEUR sports folks. We could argue about the definition all day, but the truth of the matter is that you all paid $110 for an experience and nothing more. I hear the the Milwaukee crew worked their tails off to make your experience most satisfying. heck they started off giving your entry back to you whether you wanted the stuff or not.

I know it is tough to fight all week long and get a Top Ten finish and not get what you feel you deserve. BUT, all the merch you could have won will be here today and gone tomorrow. Your finish, you can be proud of for a lifetime.

Congrats to all of the Champions and those that played like 'em



Very well put Mr. Yeti,
You as well I know, I turned pro last yr after worlds. Shoot after going to WAs 4 times just for the competition it was time to move on. I went to worlds for every one of those reasons above but, MAINLY because, I knew I would be seeing the best overall set of competition, and to see how I landed in the mix. The best statement Yeti in your whole post "Dig really deep and think about your current disc golf game and where you see yourself." Plastic is plastic, here today gone tomorrow are also perfect words. I am experiencing a learning curve at every tourny in PROs, but you also said, this would happen for a couple of years. I am telling you a fact, I am seeing parts of my game since turning pro that have improved 75-100%. If you go to AM worlds for plastic and baskets, that is definitely the wrong reason to go to this tournament. I cannot wait for next yrs worlds because I will be there stronger than ever, and then I will see where I stand out there amongst the players that play pro. When I was an AM for the last couple of yrs I expected to be on the top card and hopefully win. That does not equal the Pro world championship or USDGC Championship if you are playing in AMs. A win at this tournament is priceless. At that point I could have cared less about the plastic or payout.


enough

Peace to all

Ams should play for trophys only, it would save the people who run these events a lot of time and the complaining wouldn't happen either. If you want to play for prizes (money) play Pro Worlds, even then, if you aren't finishing in the top 5-10% you aren't going to net much of a profit anyway.......if you aren't playing for the love of the game, I don't know why you are playing.



A message from a Pro who wants our am entry fees in the pro purse. :o ;) :o



I could honestly careless about what division you (or anyone else) play in. Like I said, I'm not playing for the money, prizes, etc.

I have an innocent question that I really don't know the answer to. Does any of the money accumulated at Am Worlds go to Pro Worlds (either directly or indirectly)? I've heard different answers, and I'm a little confused by what is true or not.



Not true. While the PDGA may support both events, the Am worlds does not provide any support to the PRO worlds. At least NOT from the hosting club. The PDGA may take the money they themselves made from one and apply it to the other but you have to ask the PDGA.

"Ams should play for trophys only"...

a very fast way to kill the PDGA would be to make all Ams play for trophy only. some Ams might like it, but plenty of nsanctioned events would pop up immediately and the exodus would be underway



Proof?

If you want to hold a trophy only Am tournament, good luck, noone's going to show. Not only that, if the system was changed to trophy only, a bunch of Ams would move up and the rest would quit. Then what's the motivation for a TD?
No Am payouts= No profits for a tournament= no more tournaments.



Not entirly true. I just ran a trophy only event for the Am side, and we had the biggest turnout for an event that Abilene had ever seen. In fact, it almost filled. Everyone got a great players pack (250% of entry fee), lunch provided both days, chance at CTP's, Ring of Fire, and trophies to the Top 3 in each division.

There were some who purposfully didnt show up because of the payout style, but thats fine...no hard feelings. And, I'm sure some walked away feeling unsatisfied, even though they didnt voice their displeasure. But, I can safely say that the biggest majority of players enjoyed themselves.

Did we make money? Not really. But, that was known up front. We added a small amount to the Pro purse, and walked away with slightly more than we started with. But, there are plenty of ways to raise money for your club. We wanted to gie everyone some stuff and provide everyone with a good time, from the winner in Open to the last place Rec player who worked his ***** off just to play 700 rated golf. And, we did that.

Would this be accepted on a national level? Probably not, but I'm a firm believer that it could be.

screwed in what? Your payout? Am's should be playing for a trophy ONLY, you want a better payout play pro.





I do play open. Unfortunately I suck and never get any payout, but I dont care. I hate to see the Ams being taken advantage of.

Is this finally the thread that I've been waiting for where we will definitively decide as a group what an amateur is and should be? Will we decide what we should all be playing for as Ams and Pros? It's never going to happen. A thread like this just makes people frustrated and can hurt the feelings of many volunteers who had no say in the way this was run.

When Ams or Pros play a tournament they want a value equal or greater than what they paid in. Probably each and every one of us has a different formula in our head as to what makes up that value.

Maybe there is a better way of constructively communicating your ideas about Worlds than just sending an e-mail to Terry or David, but I just don't see the point of 90% of this discussion in this forum.

When they do it, you'll see your proof. I've run plenty of trophy-only events. They draw about 1/4th the players you'll get at a normal gambling for cash and prizes tournament. It is why I don't run a lot of Michigan tournaments anymore.

You can get away with it in Maine if you own the course and don't have any competition. You cannot really compete with a traditional gambling for prizes format running trophy-only. I've tried. You want proof, you try.

Consider this: the USGA. They've done trophy-only long enough that very, very few golf tournaments are sanctioned. The golf course where i run my Big D tournament has dozens of outings every year but never a sanctioned tournament. That format just cannot compete with beer tents and big prizes. The USGA has gone trophy-only so long, they've given up and come around to our format. You can now win $750 worth of prizes at a USGA and still be an amateur.

Yikes, it sounds like people were really unhappy, unless you won your division, with this years AM Worlds. I just hope those who played, payout aside, realize how much work was done by the many VOLUNTEERS to get these courses done in a professional manner on time for the event. Funny thing is with the exception of myself and a few others, most of the volunteers had nothing to do with the tourney (didnt play, werent staff members) A lot of great people who would see no financial gain at all from this we out there early in the morning doing great work. So much was placed on the shoulders of GLDGC, the local club, and the few volunteers that came out for months doing work. I honestly dont feel that the the tourney haters and Am Worlds staff truly appreciates how much work these volunteers did. I am not looking for any pity or a pat on the back, just saying what i think. People like T Kiefer, Mark Peterson, Tim Strait, Mike Batka, Charley Radtke, the Lopers and many other volunteers are the ones who made this event even happen. We took the bid for Worlds and the volunteers and the club ran with it. To hear the event be bashed so much is irritating because it reflects on Milwaukee and the local golfers negatively. We did a lot of work just to get this ready in time.
With that said, i thought the number one CON of this event was the selection of plastic, or for better words the lack there of. I dont know about the payout bc this was my first worlds and for 81st i didnt expect anything but still got $20 but the selection was so bad i dont know how someone could spend $100. An example the 7th place finisher for AM Masters got a stack of 100 Innova stickers with his winnings bc there was NO plastic left, but a surplus of t-shirts that have been with Lifetime Disc Sports inventory since i joined the pdga. It seemed like AM Worlds was a great opportunity to unload all the crap that no one bought earlier in the year.
Question....
With the ace pool being funny money, where does the extra money go? ex---if an ace got you $200 funny money, does the td reap the benefits of the plastic exchange for purchasing wholesale discounted prices? bc at $15 a piece for us, the player, when the td gets the plastic for $8 a piece. bc if that is how it goes that td could add the extra money back to the payout to silence the dissenters. Hopefully those who attended are not salty to milwaukee, because we loved having you all here. It was a lot of fun.
p.s. i would quit FOR SURE if all am events were only for trophies. i really like looking through bins of plastic and picking stuff out. chill

For everyone CRYING about the ACE POOL! Being the scoring director, and in charge of all the script/funny money I can say for a FACT that the ace pool amounted to $1,875 (375 players @ $5). We had planned on paying out 16 players, $160 each.
160 * 16 = $2560
Then due to 2 overlooked aces and one registration mistake we paid out an additional 3 aces @ $480 dollars. I discussed the problem with Dave Gentry of the PDGA and he stated to just GIVE the players $160 each. We had planned on paying out the Ace Pool of around $2500 and instead paid out $3000+.
Greedy? I don't think so.

And as far as people COMPLAINING about the selection of merch at payout? We held back stock and slowly refilled the bins as the day went on, to make it FAIR for the players finishing later. It was a decision made by Terry and the PDGA, based on a few complaints about Tulsa that they heard. How else would you like to see it? First come first serve? Maybe a free-for-all that would result in people crying about being stuck in the back and make for complete chaos? How about a lottery system for payout? I am all ears. How about the tournament purchase a WHOLE bunch of stock that they are stuck with after the event, just to make YOU few happy.

Thanks to everyone who enjoyed themselves and played. And congrats to everyone that came and cashed (114 out of 250? in ADV).

Thanks RJ29274! I appreciate all the work you did. Please don't let this discussion (no comment on the content so as not to detract from my purpose) detract from the gratitude many of us feel for your efforts. I had a great time and paid over 3k to participate - as a CADDY! (that sentiment goes for all the other volunteers as well)

it was just a suggestion, and you didnt address my question. pass the kleenex ;)

Paying out merchandise and being fair about it at AM Worlds is a really tough job. I had a late payout last year in Tulsa and honestly there was not much of a selection, mostly firebirds and star starfires and other stuff that obviously nobody wanted. All the rocs and tee rex's, wraiths, sidewinders and Twistd Flyer gear (stuff i throw) were gone. But I'm glad I got to pick what I wanted even though it was down to hardly nothing. Iowa was just as bad, I heard many, many complaints about that payout as well.

It's hard paying out 300 amateurs especially when it's pick your own payout.

Milwaukee pulled off a good AM Worlds, but just like any other AM Worlds your going to hear some chin music about silly or serious issues.

Like Matt keeps saying; CONGRATULATIONS TO ALL THE WINNERS! Being a World Champion is something to be proud of, so be proud!

I would suggest (as an innocent bystander that did not play Worlds) that anyone (including my brother) that has a problem with how Worlds was run should shoot an e-mail or place a call to Terry Miller and/or David Gentry. I don't know how arguing about the worth of a player's pack on this message board is going to change any one's opinion or be constructive criticism for future events.

Communicating with Terry might help explain why something was done. Communicating with David might help the PDGA to provide what the players want at Worlds in the future.

... what they want is something they've never "truly" had : an Amateur World Championship Event ... c'mon , PDGA thinkers &gt;&gt;&gt; go after the masses ...



Go start a thread called "I want to invent Mid Nationals" and talk about this. Get a clue...the tournament already exists. If you want to help promote it to the masses, your help would be appreciated, I'm sure. In this forum most of us already know the event exists.


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� oh yeah � Mid-Nationals � ? � and that�s for the �Championship of the World� ? � does it change venues ? � rotate around the country geographically ? � promote itself to all �Intermediate� -and- �Recreational� Level Players everywhere ? � all ages and gender ? � is it lauded as one of the PDGA �flagship� Events ? � entry gained by �PDGA Invitation� ? � earned by PDGA-accrued point totals to qualify ? � the �Big Cherry� at the end of your season-of-play ? � is it held over a week of Competition and Events ? � with Field-Events , Distance , Doubles , Putting , etc. all offered with �World-Championships� to be won ? �
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� thought so �
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� note the Title of this post �
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� note that ALL of the World Champions (except juniors) that were crowned last week (congrats to all , by-the-way) feature the word �ADVANCED� on their division , in the record-books , and on their �World Title� �
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� do the right thing � create some real growth � from roots up � wanna see gobs-of-players attain PDGA-current status ? � wanna see gobs-of-players retain PDGA-current status ? �
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� build it ; they will come �

I remember that at the 2004 worlds we got a really nice players pack and I placed 50 and got over 100 payout and the entry that year I believe was 100. But that was then this is now.



I finished in 21st and I believe I got paid out over 200!!! And I believe I got something like 50-75 for 5th in Distance as well!!! And Im almost positive the entry fee was 100.

Everyone is complaining about payout. Maybe next time we should just give the winners thousands of dollars worth of merch, and have no players party, no players pack, no extras of any kind. I bet you the person who did not cash at all would have LOVED that option. In addition, we should not bring in experienced people to help run the event. We should have a bunch of rookies run the event. We should run the event on courses that are run down, with beat up baskets, uncut grass, no spotters etc.
I think that would go over real well with the players.
I heard at least 200 people thank me and our staff for the work we did all week, and just because a few people on this board have issues, I will not let you down play the work we did to pull this event off. You can run all the poles you want, and question everything that is done, but until you are behind the scenes, you have no validity to go from.
Yes, I am getting defensive, because our club, the GLDGC, and many other people put in work on this for over the past 2 years to prep the courses, the event etc.

If you still have an issue with our worlds, I would HIGHLY suggest you and your club put in the bid for the worlds and see how easy it is.

Thanks to those who helped on the event and i am glad that most people enjoyed the event.



See previous post!!! Iowa Worlds in 2004 had from what I hear EVERYTHING this worlds had an MORE and still payout out amazingly!!! I just wonder where all that sponsorship money went because from what it looks like and what I have heard from people who attended it did not go back to the players.

Wow I don't understand any of these complaints!!! I wish we would follow the ball golf model and not give anything but medals. It should be changed from an "entry fee" to a "application fee". In case anyone is interested here is the link to the USGA 107th us amateur championships. link (http://www.usga.org/championships/apply_to_play/forms/usam.pdf)

Their application fee is $125 and first, second, and third get medals. There is no payout at all. hmmmmmm......

As an amateur you should be playing for the love/fun of the game. Do you really go to the Am world championships for the payout???

In addition so what if the td/club wants to make some money. Should they work for almost two years and then take two plus weeks off from work to make this event happen just so you guys can get on this board and complain? I think every td/club that runs a major event should get some kind of compensation.

Once again WOW!!! I don't get it it.



Shawn I understand what your saying but you also have to realize that the caliber of the courses that are played in that event may run 125 dollar greens fees for just ONE round of play not to mentions the entire weekend it takes to play in the USGA Championship.......They play 126 holes from Wednesday to Sunday so if the Greens fee for just one rounds on that course is even 50 dollars then just to play that course for seven rounds would cost 350 dollars so in all actuality they are getting a DEAL at 125 for the competition and amout of golf they get to play if they make it to the final days!!! You can compare am ball golf to am disc golf because it actually costs money to play ball golf and disc golf costs nothing to play. Basically the players at Junior and AM Ball Golf tournaments are paying a discounted rated to use the facilitys for the tournament and in some cases do get paid out very well and I know this because my dad competes in what I would consider alot of am ball golf events across the country.

Im just saying look at what the Iowa Team did and provided in 2004 and look at the payouts and then look at what was provided and done this year and look at the payouts!!!

I'm not voicing my opinion either way on the matter...just want to say that my am worlds I got 26th and I got like 120 in merch....JJ won and got a basket and 300 - 400 in merch.



I would have to say you recieved more than that because for 21st I believe I got 200 or more but I may be wrong and you are the one with the photographic memory!!! What was I wearing again the 1st time I met you??? :eek: :eek:

I'm not voicing my opinion either way on the matter...just want to say that my am worlds I got 26th and I got like 120 in merch....JJ won and got a basket and 300 - 400 in merch.



I would have to say you recieved more than that because for 21st I believe I got 200 or more but I may be wrong and you are the one with the photographic memory!!! What was I wearing again the 1st time I met you??? :eek: :eek:

A skirt and halter top

I'm not voicing my opinion either way on the matter...just want to say that my am worlds I got 26th and I got like 120 in merch....JJ won and got a basket and 300 - 400 in merch.



I would have to say you recieved more than that because for 21st I believe I got 200 or more but I may be wrong and you are the one with the photographic memory!!! What was I wearing again the 1st time I met you??? :eek: :eek:

A skirt and halter top



:eek: :eek: :eek:

When they do it, you'll see your proof. I've run plenty of trophy-only events. They draw about 1/4th the players you'll get at a normal gambling for cash and prizes tournament. It is why I don't run a lot of Michigan tournaments anymore.

You can get away with it in Maine if you own the course and don't have any competition. You cannot really compete with a traditional gambling for prizes format running trophy-only. I've tried. You want proof, you try.

Consider this: the USGA. They've done trophy-only long enough that very, very few golf tournaments are sanctioned. The golf course where i run my Big D tournament has dozens of outings every year but never a sanctioned tournament. That format just cannot compete with beer tents and big prizes. The USGA has gone trophy-only so long, they've given up and come around to our format. You can now win $750 worth of prizes at a USGA and still be an amateur.



This is a very good subject :D

Wish I could have gone to Am or Pro Worlds just to be a part of it; maybe next year- Anyone from Michigan that can tell me an estimate on driving time between Manistee and Kalamazoo? Have to start making plans. Thanks!!

steve mills everybody!!!!!!!!!

Yes steve mills everybody!!! ;)

I do remember getting $70 or $75 for 88th place at Iowa Worlds 2004. Great shooting that year also Steve!! Way to step up!!

I just wanted to say I had a great time shooting with everyone every round at worlds this year. I met some cool people for all over again!!

Michigan here I come next year!! hehe...

Hamm

Why did the payout suck so bad?

Because instead of adding the sponsorship to the event value, they did PDGA minimum payouts and deducted the full value of the player pack from the payouts.



This has never made sense to me. Players packs are straight up advertisement. The cost should fall on the participating companies.

Wish I could have gone to Am or Pro Worlds just to be a part of it; maybe next year- Anyone from Michigan that can tell me an estimate on driving time between Manistee and Kalamazoo? Have to start making plans. Thanks!!



Manistee to Kalamazoo is probably around 2 and a half hours from what I last remember.

I do not get it where people think he was greedy!



Who were the venders at the payout?

Go Steve Mills!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Their application fee is $125 and first, second, and third get medals.



Those winners go onto the PGA with a chance to win millions. It isn't comparable on that level. Winners of am disc golf might get a sponsorship or two and win a couple thousand dollars while working full time.

... b-sides my "chin-music" on the subject of what I view as a "traversable chasm" in our PDGA-World-Championship-Tournament offerings ; I would like to chime in on goings-on in Wisconsin this past week ...
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.
.
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... Congratulations to Terry Miller , ALL STAFF , Volunteers and your whole "AmWorlds Team" for gitting 'er done ... Kudos to all responsible for your accomplishment ... and a big ol' Pat-On-The-Back to every one of ya ... the PDGA and all Members and Players owe you a great-deal-of-thanks for your efforts ...

I can't take the time to read all of the whining posts about payouts. I totally agree with Jay and Terry C. I had a very fun time attending my first Worlds after playing for 31 years. I did not enter to make money or get "stuff", I came to have fun and interact with a lot of like-minded fellow disc golfers. I accomplished just what I set out to do. If you watched Terry Miller, or any volunteer for that matter, throughout the day, he was handling one petty problem after another (that includes petty problems I brought to him as well). He would look into each one or assign it to one of his staff, but he would always handle it. I would hope that he made something out of all the work he put into this event. I, for one, feel it was worth every penny I paid to play in this event.

Having been playing this great sport for over 30 years, I still agree with the main motto of disc golf, "The most fun wins!".

I feel like I was a winner, because I had lots of fun in Milwaukee at the Am Worlds. Thanks for everything!!

For everyone CRYING about the ACE POOL! Being the scoring director, and in charge of all the script/funny money I can say for a FACT that the ace pool amounted to $1,875 (375 players @ $5). We had planned on paying out 16 players, $160 each.
160 * 16 = $2560
Then due to 2 overlooked aces and one registration mistake we paid out an additional 3 aces @ $480 dollars. I discussed the problem with Dave Gentry of the PDGA and he stated to just GIVE the players $160 each. We had planned on paying out the Ace Pool of around $2500 and instead paid out $3000+.
Greedy? I don't think so.



So you paid out (about) an extra 38% in RETAIL PRICES?
And what was the markup on plastic? You make it sound like the ace pool was very generous to the players, and the tournament lost money.
If the markup was 40% (it was probably larger), you can do the math.

Assuming they got the 500 rate from Innova, the mark up was about 100%. Assuming they got the tournament special pricing from Discraft, there was stuff they bought for $5 priced at $15 and $17.

Great week of disc golf! Thanks to Terry, the sponsors, the volunteers and the PDGA. Congrats to all the winners, especially Greg!


One complaint- Bag Tags! Cost 20$ and only a few prizes were given away. Did Innova sponsor the bag tags?

I wish that more people would have got in on tags. Other than my 4-5 friends that bought tags, I only had 1 other person on a card that had a tag. Maybe next time (K-Zoo), tags can be included in the players pack.

Thanks again to Terry and everyone involved with the 07 Am Worlds!



Just a follow up

- If you purchased a bag tag, you also received a micro-fiber towel
- you could have challeneged outside your card
- there were only 200 tags available (a handful were not sold)
- 10 people won prizes (including the Kicker Stereo, mini - baskets, discs, funny money, and more)

Good idea for next year's player's pack.

Great week of disc golf! Thanks to Terry, the sponsors, the volunteers and the PDGA. Congrats to all the winners, especially Greg!


One complaint- Bag Tags! Cost 20$ and only a few prizes were given away. Did Innova sponsor the bag tags?

I wish that more people would have got in on tags. Other than my 4-5 friends that bought tags, I only had 1 other person on a card that had a tag. Maybe next time (K-Zoo), tags can be included in the players pack.

Thanks again to Terry and everyone involved with the 07 Am Worlds!



Just a follow up

- If you purchased a bag tag, you also received a micro-fiber towel
- you could have challeneged outside your card
- there were only 200 tags available (a handful were not sold)
- 10 people won prizes (including the Kicker Stereo, mini - baskets, discs, funny money, and more)

Good idea for next year's player's pack.



It was tough to challenge the 4 of 5 age restricted winners that won though. I had fun on the challenges I had, but they were only with the same people!

I can understand that, especially if they had a lot of people who wanted to challenege them, or if they were not at the same course as you.

That's one reason the Kicker Stereo and some of ther other big prizes went to the random drawing.

I like the idea of everyone starting with one in their player's packs - though I can see some people getting fussy about the number they started with and how it would be done fairly. I like how ours was randomly drawn by the player.

I thought the worlds was great. I caddied for my son and the only payout we were concerned with was the title of world champion. I can get disc and bags every day. The staff did a great job and the courses were fun to play. We cant wait to get to Kalimazooo.

I can't take the time to read all of the whining posts about payouts. I totally agree with Jay and Terry C. I had a very fun time attending my first Worlds after playing for 31 years. I did not enter to make money or get "stuff", I came to have fun and interact with a lot of like-minded fellow disc golfers. I accomplished just what I set out to do. If you watched Terry Miller, or any volunteer for that matter, throughout the day, he was handling one petty problem after another (that includes petty problems I brought to him as well). He would look into each one or assign it to one of his staff, but he would always handle it. I would hope that he made something out of all the work he put into this event. I, for one, feel it was worth every penny I paid to play in this event.

Having been playing this great sport for over 30 years, I still agree with the main motto of disc golf, "The most fun wins!".

I feel like I was a winner, because I had lots of fun in Milwaukee at the Am Worlds. Thanks for everything!!



I have to agree with this one. I am a bottom feeding player. I have no expectations of cashing (or plasticing) unless I am playing in the special ed divisions that Bruce offers- thanks Bruce. Accordingly, I really can't comment on the payouts. I rarely participate in payouts. :mad: All I can say is that there seems to be enough chatter here about them to look into the issue. This is a legitimate issue that is completely separate from the quality event that was held last week.

What I do know is that Terry, Shark, GLDC, the Milwaukee Minions etc put on a great show. They worked their individual and collective tails off to get one existing and three new courses ready for over 500 demanding players and to make a logistical challenge play clean. I thorougly enjoyed myself. I figure for $110 I took a cheap vacation. I was lucky enough to stay with friends locally so I had no lodging expense. For the cost of food,beer, gas and $110 I got to throw things for a week, meet diverse and interesting players from all over the world and walk around with a @%&amp;* eating silly grin on my face 24/7. It was one of the cheapest vacations I have taken since I drove to New Orleans on Spring break while in college while camping every night and takng showers in the bus station. Thanks to Avery, Valerie, Burl and Dave for a great pro demo. I am still absorbing the lessons they gave. Thanks to Julianna for signing my Valk. As they say, that was worth the price of admission.

Value is a funny, and relative, thing. I understand why players who expect to win may feel shortchanged. I got tremendous value for my money and time. Thanks guys and gals.

I can't believe all the smack over payout. If you play for the payout, your playing for the wrong reason, and need to move up. It is nice to be paid out, but this is not the reason to play. Milwaukee, You have done a great job on the courses. These were some of the best courses i have ever played on. Debris free, Beautiful, and challenging to the real am. You know the one's rated BTW 700-900. May have been a pitch and Putt to some, but to the true am's, challenging. If you think it was a pitch and putt, you should have played a week later a little farther North. It was fun watching the 8-15 yr olds birdie, and show a facial expression of accomplishment. Courses were top of the line, thanks Milwaukee staff for having us there, and the care and maintenance you put into those courses. Weather, does it get any better. Took 6 cans of bug repellent, returned to carolina with all 6. How does that happen. Brought back 14lbs of cheese, LOL. I met some awsome people, from registration, to big weenie looking things called sausages. I play for the experience, comaradie, socialization, and competitiveness. Plus its pretty darn fun too.I thought all of team Carolina did pretty good at AmWorld.

Mini Thumber

If you play for the payout, your playing for the wrong reason, and need to move up. It is nice to be paid out, but this is not the reason to play.

That may be true. But if you are running a tournament so that you can put the value of the sponsorship you raise in your back pocket instead of giving it to the players, you need to move on to more profitable scams. The payouts sucked because they deducted from the payouts the value of stuff they got for free. Any sponsor who thought they were adding value to the tournament was mistaken. They provided a lot of sponsorship to the tournament promoters but not much at all to the tournament players. :(

I'm guessing that you were the one yelling 'Carolina in the House' over and over during the awards ceremony?

AMs cannot complain about anything without coming off as greedy. There has been a big backlash against the 'complainers' on the board. Such as Brakel, Stahlin, et al.

I would not have a problem with AM Worlds 2007 at all if this question can be answered: How much profit was made and who received it?

I would not have a problem with weak payouts as an AM if i knew where the money was going in the end. Tournament expenses, new courses, charities and club funds are all acceptable. I would have a problem with weak payouts if I knew a substantial portion of my $110 entry fee was lining the pockets of a person seeking exhorbitant profits to the detriment of others.

Worlds was an amazing experience, and I am definately making the trek to MI next year. Thanks to all the volunteers. I want to extend a special thanks to Juliana. She's always been my favorite disc golfer, and I thought it was really cool of her to donate her time to the Ams.

About payout... I will not publicly comment about whether or not I thought the Am Worlds payout was fair. That's irrelevant. But, I do think that it's hard to design a payout that will make everybody happy. It seems no matter where I go somebody, whether pro or am, is not happy with the payout. While it may seem that players are greedy when they complain, I'm not sure that's the case. Many disc golfers I know are students or are just starting out on their own. For these golfers, paying $110 for a tournament is a huge deal. I think when they pay a significant chunk of change for an event, they want to know how their money is being spent. Is the money going to players' packs, food, course reservation, payout, etc? I think they want reassurance that their money is being spent properly and not being pocketed or transfered to another division.

I am also a huge fan of the trophy-only option. Of my six tourneys this year, I have played trophy-only in 4 of them. The entry fees are only about $10-15 a pop. In my mind, that's a reasonable price to pay for an afternoon of fun. Heck, you can't even go to a movie for that price anymore. Would I play Worlds if it was trophy only? Yes, but only if entry fees were reduced...maybe not to $10, but $30 or $40 would work.

You are correct, you may proceed to the next station. I am the one that is usually loud, but a teddy bear in reality. I have a helluva lot of fun playing regardless of the outcome. Just ask those that I played with. My hearts into socialization, saying a good word to someone, and always doing something everday for someone, without expecting anything in return.

Mini thumber

If you play for the payout, your playing for the wrong reason, and need to move up. It is nice to be paid out, but this is not the reason to play.

That may be true. But if you are running a tournament so that you can put the value of the sponsorship you raise in your back pocket instead of giving it to the players, you need to move on to more profitable scams. The payouts sucked because they deducted from the payouts the value of stuff they got for free. Any sponsor who thought they were adding value to the tournament was mistaken. They provided a lot of sponsorship to the tournament promoters but not much at all to the tournament players. :(



Great post. 10/10.

You're great, Mini Thumber! Ben and I had so much fun when you followed our group. You are definately one of the most memorable people I met that week! :)

lets see the financial report then and settle this, checks and balances, btw, if you are a local then you are not surprised with what happened.

No need to get fired up, mini thumber..just asking a question. While I have your attention- you mentioned 'true' and 'real' AMs...I'm curious as to what you ment about 'true/real' AMs?

Everyone concerned with payouts, expenses, etc etc, please contact the PDGA and Terry Miller directly. There are a bunch of great people on this board discussing the positives about the event and the few of you worried about expenses/payouts are bring it down. Its very frustrating to continue to read this bashing, so instead of publicly asking for it, go to the PDGA and Terry for the information.

Great tournament!

$24 back-end payout (using Bruce's math....I didn't bother to check it)
$130ish front end payout (player's packages)

$154 per head total

Sounds like you guys are bickering about the DISTRIBUTION of the payout, because to me the overall payout looks pretty good overall (About 140% by my calculation) . And, of course, that's with retail prices...sheesh...I don't pay $4.00 for a retail disc, and neither do you. If a prize is donated, that means staff can use some of the entry fees to pay other expenses (of which I assure you are numerous....we've run two of these in Kansas City, and are going to run another one in 2 years, oh yeah, we've invited Pros this time also)

If they (Lifetime Disc Sports or GLDGC) made a profit, and a lot of it goes back into infrastructure (ala Tulsa putting in a couple of courses at Mohawk), then fantastic for them. That's where the profit from Am Worlds 1999 and 2003 went for us...to improve courses, add new ones, and keep disc golf thriving here. And that's what will happen in 2009, if we make anything.

Are donated prizes worth less than something you paid for? I'll bet the sponsor wouldn't like to hear you say that. I certainly don't appreciate them less because some sponsor was generous enough to donate them.

Thanks again to Terry Miller, Mark Peterson, and the GLDGC for putting a fun, and well-run event. I'd come back to Milwaukee anytime.

Chap

Everyone needs to be held accountable.

Please explain RJ

Are donated prizes worth less than something you paid for? I'll bet the sponsor wouldn't like to hear you say that. I certainly don't appreciate them less because some sponsor was generous enough to donate them.



Well then, good thing noone said that, because the AMs PAID FOR THEM.
A valid point someone did bring up is that the donated items' value was deducted from the players' entry fee. Does that seem right?

Are donated prizes worth less than something you paid for? I'll bet the sponsor wouldn't like to hear you say that. I certainly don't appreciate them less because some sponsor was generous enough to donate them.



Well then, good thing noone said that, because the AMs PAID FOR THEM.
A valid point someone did bring up is that the donated items' value was deducted from the players' entry fee. Does that seem right?



Huh? How do you know what items were donated, which were bought, and which were bought at cost? I certainly don't know that. The TD might. And why does that even matter? You don't get it. The players package IS payout. The payout was good....about 140% at retail, which is more than being generous.

Chap

Accountability is simple. Much like checks and balances that many organizations and our government embrace. Basically, it prevents those who have the power from exploiting and/or taking advantage of those who have no voice. In this case accountability would be the td explaining how the entry fees, payouts, and everything else is divided. Instead, we have a situation where he who has the gold makes the rule and that is b$. We just have to wait for the public finance report. Either way im over it, if you dont want to be cheated move up and thats what ill do, open time.

I have been following the board all day. there are several issue about the payout and how and what Am's should get.

I didn't play. My son was ok with his pay out. But he didn't have to pay his own entry fee.

He has two things that mean more to him than anything else.

#1. 10 and under world champ Basket 2006 tulsa.
#2. Gold medal 2007 North Carolina state games.

Andrew Plays because he loves the game and he plays to win. payout is just a bonus to him.

If I had to guess he likes trophy's better. Plastic can be lost and you don't always get the disc you want.

Ryan, you are 100% correct. I agree there should be accountability for the event, and there is. The common misconception is that one person, the TD, controls the entire event. That is not true, as the PDGA is involved with the process and they have a system to maintain those checks and balances. Consider yourself informed.

Huh? How do you know what items were donated, which were bought, and which were bought at cost? I certainly don't know that. The TD might. And why does that even matter? You don't get it. The players package IS payout. The payout was good....about 140% at retail, which is more than being generous.

Chap


Oh I understand fully that player packs are payouts on the front end and should come out of the entry fee, but retail values should not be deducted from the entry fees. How does this sound?:

I'm going to run an Am Worlds. Want a chance at an amateur world championship? Then you HAVE to buy $80 worth of stuff that I got sponsors to give me a great deal on, or just donate. I could charge you players for the exact amount that I paid for the packages, but I am going to charge retail prices and make a profit off of this stuff that you HAVE to buy to compete at worlds. Thanks for the cash suckas!!!

Why thankyou LIL Schwinn, and congrats on your great finish both in singles and doubles. Sorry your partner was so heave to carry LOL, just kiddin, great guy. You guys did great, and were a blast, and pleased to have met.

On another Note, Sorry Dana, I have my own opinion, I think when you have a rating of above 950, can throw 400 ft, make 4 out of 5 putts from 35ft. Move up. Sorry Bro, just my opinion. Not sure how fair it is, but they makes the rules, and I am proud of this Organization, and will support in any way i can.

Mini Thumber

RJ is just playing along the lines that Terry somehow isn't fair to Am players. He doesn't know what he is talking about. What he doesn't know about Am Worlds (could fill the grand canyon) is that the PDGA sets the payout. The PDGA watches over EVERY STEP of the process. This is not a "money grab" as you so elegantly call it. Anything that happens with this event is monitored by the PDGA. If you have an issue with it, contact them. But personal insults and insinuations against Terry are unwelcome and uncalled for.

I don't know what kind of profit was made on this tournament, I wasn't in charge of the accounting. But, how much is too much? Does anyone EVER consider the amount of time that Terry has put into running this event. HUNDREDS OF HOURS! Time that he can not put towards his own disc golf business. Would you be angry with him if the tournament netted him personally $1000 or $2000? How much does he have the "right" to according to you for organizing a close to FLAWLESS event for 530 people?

As far as donations to the tournament. You DO NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO WHOLESALE PRICES, regardless what the tournament gets them for! The disc makers have MSRPs that they expect vendors to follow. Feel free to walk into any retail outlet and ask for whatever they pay for a product. See how that goes for you. And anyone that doesn't abide by these MSRPs is devaluing their products. There is a new minimum mark up law, maybe this will help disc golfers "value" what they pay for.
http://m.thejournalnews.com/news.jsp?key=52086&amp;rc=bz

And as far as the vendors at the awards. The disc golfers already have a tenuous relationship with Milwaukee County Parks, and it was the Milwaukee County Parks decision to not let other vendors at the awards.

Thank you Yeti, Chappy, &amp; McCoy.

PS. McCoy... how long until the Cubs fold??? GO BREWERS!!! :)

As far as donations to the tournament. You DO NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO WHOLESALE PRICES, regardless what the tournament gets them for! The disc makers have MSRPs that they expect vendors to follow. Feel free to walk into any retail outlet and ask for whatever they pay for a product. See how that goes for you. And anyone that doesn't abide by these MSRPs is devaluing their products. There is a new minimum mark up law, maybe this will help disc golfers "value" what they pay for.
http://m.thejournalnews.com/news.jsp?key=52086&amp;rc=bz




I assume you are talking about funny money payouts. That's fair. Are there any guidelines about charging wholesale for player packs? I would bet not. Refer to "Thanks for the cash suckas."

As far as donations to the tournament. You DO NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO WHOLESALE PRICES, regardless what the tournament gets them for! The disc makers have MSRPs that they expect vendors to follow. Feel free to walk into any retail outlet and ask for whatever they pay for a product. See how that goes for you. And anyone that doesn't abide by these MSRPs is devaluing their products. There is a new minimum mark up law, maybe this will help disc golfers "value" what they pay for.




Sorry I have to reply to this one.

So as long as I meet the Min Sale price I can sell the Disc for what ever I value it at.

I get t-shirts Printed for tournament to give out in players packs. the screen printer is my son's sponsor. I get a very sweet deal on shirts. so you are saying I can charge $30 for a $5 shirt. After all I am the retailer now.

.

Yes, I am assuming you can. And it will be your right. But you will have to explain it when the time comes for payout why you INFLATED the cost of the t-shirt. Last time I checked Am Worlds merch wasn't inflated, it was what the manufacturer normally sells them at. I would understand if people were bitter if the tournament stopped all other vendors and then charged $30 for all discs, but again, they just charged what the manufacturer recommended.

For $30, that t-shirt better teach me to putt!

What time is the players meeting?

I had a great time in Milwaukee. It was my first worlds, and although I wasn't real impressed, I still had a good time.

The main question I have is the payout sheet posted at Dretska listed $50,000 collected in entry fees. And the payout was $12,000 across the divisions if I was reading the sheet correctly. I do assume there are alot of costs with running worlds but it would be nice to see where rest of the money went. Not to mention the $20,000 or so from the fund raising squalls. Those are just some big numbers that stick out to me.

Either way I will state again I had fun.

As far as donations to the tournament. You DO NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO WHOLESALE PRICES, regardless what the tournament gets them for! The disc makers have MSRPs that they expect vendors to follow. Feel free to walk into any retail outlet and ask for whatever they pay for a product. See how that goes for you. And anyone that doesn't abide by these MSRPs is devaluing their products. There is a new minimum mark up law, maybe this will help disc golfers "value" what they pay for.




Sorry I have to reply to this one.

So as long as I meet the Min Sale price I can sell the Disc for what ever I value it at.

I get t-shirts Printed for tournament to give out in players packs. the screen printer is my son's sponsor. I get a very sweet deal on shirts. so you are saying I can charge $30 for a $5 shirt. After all I am the retailer now.

.



That depends on if you have a soul or a concience (sp?). I dont mind when a tournament director makes a personal profit.......I would hope that he would take what he thinks his time is worth but I dont however believe that they should make a KILLING on a tournament.......I mean EVERYONE knows that Am tournaments are a FORCED sale!!! You pay to get in and your paid out in funny money that you can only spend at that tournament or online at that persons store........This is all fine and dandy because eveyone who runs a tournament should make enough money to make it worth running another. What I have a problem with is the over priced plastic at payout time and the TD over pricing the players packs!!! I heard people complaining about 15 Dollar Champ and Z and 17 Dollar Star and ESP.......What I say to those people is SHOVE IT........Thats suggested retail on discs and for a TD to sell them for less than that is going against what the wholesale distributor is asking and believe their product is worth at retail........Some TDs do it and god bless them for making less than what they should on a disc!!! But I dont think its a matter of how much discs cost in the payout but how much of a payout there was. I got an AMAZING players pack both in 2004 and in 2006......More so in 2006 cuz of the Revolution Mini bag and the introduction of Star and ESP plastic!!! And both of those years I cashed and was pretty happy with both payouts........2004 was 21st and around 200 with a 100 dollar entry fee and amazing players pack.........2006 was 78th (didnt even make the semis) and I believe I got around 60 or so along with I believe a 110 or 125 dollar entry fee and AMAZING players pack!!!

Oh and both events had amazing players partys and free food and field events all all of that!!! Iowa a little more so just because I feel like there was more to do there than in and around Tulsa but hey they both were great!!!

Now look at this years...........110 Dollar entry fee and great players packs and from what I heard the players partys were not so great.........29th took home 60 and a great players pack with a 110 dollar entry fee......Now thats 8 spots behind what I took in 2004 and the payout dropped almost 140 dollars with just about the same amount of players and a similar entry fee??? Something just doesnt add up to me!!! And god knows what 78th place took home this year.

Again I think the TD and staff should make enough to make it worth their time but I dont think they should make as much as it looks like they have made this year.

Mills, you make some very good points. What I can't answer is how DEEP the payout was in 2004 &amp; 2006. We paid out 114 players (in ADV). If their payout wasn't as deep percentage-wise, then that could answer the question. Or maybe they raised more money than Milwaukee. That could also contribute to a different payout. Again, I can't stress this enough, the payout is decided by the PDGA.

I personally had a blast at the player's parties. The Innova Players party, I got to play in and witness the game of Disc Dodge. I couldn't stop laughing while I watched Ziggy and others dodge full speed putters and rocs. All the while I was thinking, "This kid has to go out and play in the finals tomorrow!" You would NEVER see something like that at a pro worlds. Crazy people.

And the other player's party had all the free pizza you could stuff in your mouth. It was just unfortunate the weather put a slight damper on the first ever Am Worlds Glow tournament.

BTW: Players pack consisted of at least...
Unique Revolution Bag (they will never do Red and White again!)
3 Discs (First Run Star Cro, Midnight Avenger SS, &amp; Rouge)
Polo Shirt
The FIRST EVER DGTV DVD of Am Worlds (will be sent out in Sept. sometime.)
Caddy Book of all the courses.
Mini, stickers, &amp; coupons.
Plus I am sure I am forgetting something.

This was one of the BIGGEST players packs in Am Worlds HISTORY.

sorry for making it personal to Terry, I still had fun, and Im just asking questions, I know you staff members did a hell of a lot of work, your scoring updates jv were done insanely fast. These other poster raise some good points that should be addressed, good and bad, but again sorry for insinuating that terry alone conspired to make his salary at am worlds.
He did rip up his first round, 1040!

Sounds like a nice players pack. Anyone have a pic of the Red &amp; White Revo bag?

For all who can't be happy unless you're playing for free (that is, returning home with more value than you paid in), there's someone out here who would have loved to pay $20 per day for someone to put on a great event for me. No player pack, no expectation of winning, just to play and compete in a great event. I've missed AmWorlds due to injuries and commitments since 2001 and would have loved to have been there and endured all this grief in your place.

Amateur is for the love of the game...and pro is for the love of $$ and the game :)...looks like its time for a lot of you to move up and quit biching

Sounds like a nice players pack. Anyone have a pic of the Red &amp; White Revo bag?



Check out Terry's blog, he has a nice picture and description of the player's pack - bag included. (Thanks Terry!)

http://2007amworlds.blogspot.com/2007/07/registration-players-package.html

The only exception is that the micro-fiber towel came with the purchase of a bag tag.

One thing that I am well aware of after last week. Everyone loves the staff. I don't think that one person took us for granted. Our staff was great.

I am not trying to put down people that question the tournament. Everyone has the right to question the payout. I just want to make sure that it isn't personal. Unfortunately, because Terry was the head of the operation, certain insinuations make him look bad. And knowing Terry for over 13 years, I know that he did not look at this as a way to make a fortune. Terry looked at this as a fantastic resume builder for the future.

Terry wants to get rich through disc golf. But he wants to do it on the promoting, teaching, and demos. Selling discs, running tournaments, and playing doesn't really pay too well.

Terry, Hartman, and Daddy Jenkins all are playing fantastic! Keep it up.

I wanted to say thank you to all of the Milwaukee crew who took time out of their lives to help run this event. I had a great time playing my first AM worlds and enjoyed the courses.
As far as payout goes, I will start by saying they did what is allowed at PDGA events. WHether i agree with it or not, i would bet the "numbers " will be justified. To me it looks like they made the numbers work better for them than the player.
Let me start by saying ANY item sponsored to an event should not have its"value" be taken out of entry fees. It should be an ADDED value to the tournament , above and beyond the entry fee. IF i sponsor discs to a tournament, i do so the discs can be givin away, NOT for the TD or host club to make money on.
I think that players packs should not have their full retail value deducted from entry. This retail value can be used at the end to boost tournament value. If a players package costs the club 50 dollars, the club should deduct about 60 or maybe 70 dollars from the entry fee to cover the cost of the package and to make a little profit. The host club or td would still make 10 to20 dollars per person, for a 500 person field that would be about 5000 to 10,000 dollars made on the players package. This should make any club happy. and would still leave alot more money to add to the payout. The thing that i see is clubs and tds deduct full retail for players packs which does not leave much left over for payout.
IF Lifetime disc sports was the only vendor then i would guess that business made profit on all merchandise bought with funny money.
I was happy with my player pack which i could not have bought in a store for $110 but i did think the payout would have been better.
For all those who say if you want to play to win stuff move up, that is a big joke.
I would be interested in seeing the number for the field events, such as number of players for each event and the payout for each. I think $40 in funny money and a trophy for winning mini golf was a bit low. There was no players packs so i am not sure where that money went. If anyone from the Worlds staff could post that information here that would be great.
I was very happy with the results of rounds being posted promptly but it would have been nice to see the results of the field events posted during the week.
Anyways Mark, terry, GLDGC, the numorous staff and spotters and milwaukee county parks I thank you for the time i had.
Mike ( 2007 Am world mini golf champion)

dthrow, I posted the field results (except for doubles) at the players meeting on Tuesday, it was to the right of the score boards, taped to the bleachers. Maybe you were distracted by the walking sausages! ;) They did not have the payouts at the time, but did have results. And the results were posted online here even before then.
http://www.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?Cat=0&amp;Number=718014&amp;an=0&amp;page=0#Post7 18014

It was an over site to not have the field results posted at Dretzka with the other scores during the week. They were there for the finals.

Just quickly looking at the numbers for mini-golf (in MA1)
45 competitors * $10 = $450
19 players * payout = $442
$450 - $442 = $8
3 AWESOME trophies &gt; $8
Tournament pays out more than entry fees. I believe it was the same way for all field events. Not bad for throwing a mini.

Where are the pictures and videos???
Did I miss something?

You are correct, you may proceed to the next station. I am the one that is usually loud, but a teddy bear in reality. I have a helluva lot of fun playing regardless of the outcome. Just ask those that I played with. My hearts into socialization, saying a good word to someone, and always doing something everday for someone, without expecting anything in return.

Mini thumber


I can vouch for Rocky, as he was a blast to play with, as was everyone I played with at Worlds. I don't know what's "mini" about his thumber though. I just loved watching him throw that!! Hope to see you next year Rocky, 'cause Sarah and I will definitely be going to Kalamazoo. I just love saying Kalamazoo.

Huh? How do you know what items were donated, which were bought, and which were bought at cost? I certainly don't know that. The TD might. And why does that even matter? You don't get it. The players package IS payout. The payout was good....about 140% at retail, which is more than being generous.

Chap



Oh I understand fully that player packs are payouts on the front end and should come out of the entry fee, but retail values should not be deducted from the entry fees. How does this sound?:

I'm going to run an Am Worlds. Want a chance at an amateur world championship? Then you HAVE to buy $80 worth of stuff that I got sponsors to give me a great deal on, or just donate. I could charge you players for the exact amount that I paid for the packages, but I am going to charge retail prices and make a profit off of this stuff that you HAVE to buy to compete at worlds. Thanks for the cash suckas!!!



Or the TD can use the profit to make your courses nicer for the players at the event, add amenities such as a player party, etc..., and maybe, just maybe you can pay your other expenses such as paint, tee signs, caddy books, programs, pencils, water coolers (there's lots more than that, these are just some examples), and then maybe, after you've put in 2 years of hard work and planning, just maybe, your club, or even you (the TD) can make a little money from the from the event. There's absolutely NOTHING wrong with that! The players have a great time, get paid out well (you say you had to buy the stuff...well, whatever, under your system on here, you wouldn't even get ANYTHING, so $80 would go to other players). I guarantee you the staff for this tournament, no matter what profit they make, don't even get 5% of the worth of the toil and sweat they put into it.

Again, you don't seem to get it. Here's how I see your argument:

ACTUAL PAYOUT: You pay $110 entry fee. 530 people get $130 stuff each, about 200 people get roughly $50 more each in payout.

YOUR IDEA: You still pay $110 entry fee. 330 people get nothing (why should they have to buy anything?). 200 people get roughly $400 each.

Again, your argument comes down to the DISTRIBUTION of the payout. Whether the swag was bought, donated, paid for, or whatever, whatever it is is going into the prize pool. In the actual way, 530 different people get stuff from the various manufacturers. In your way, 200 people do. Which way do you think the advertiser (the sponsor) prefers? I guarantee it's the actual way, because he gets his product in the hands of more people. And it gets closer to the thought of amateurism...people getting a nice bang for your buck, but not playing for personal monetary or large material profit.

If you want to go to a Worlds with a $20 entry fee for trophy only, and you don't have to "buy" anything, we can talk about that. But I don't sense that's your argument.

Chap

Why thankyou Bagger, I mean Larry. You may officially join the bagger group (players that have great shots sometime too). I may even make you my assistant. Kalamazoo, yes sounds nice. Will we need Bug spray up there. I could not believe Milwaukee. Take 6 cans of bug spray, bring home 6 cans, go figure. It was a blast being around you and Sarah, you both bring the true meaning to Disc Golf, have fun, make a friend, appreciate others shots too. Tell her I said hi, and Kazoo, is that what they say. getting my Passport now for Kalamazoo Mich.

Mini Thumber

Mills, you make some very good points. What I can't answer is how DEEP the payout was in 2004 &amp; 2006. We paid out 114 players (in ADV). If their payout wasn't as deep percentage-wise, then that could answer the question. Or maybe they raised more money than Milwaukee. That could also contribute to a different payout. Again, I can't stress this enough, the payout is decided by the PDGA.

I personally had a blast at the player's parties. The Innova Players party, I got to play in and witness the game of Disc Dodge. I couldn't stop laughing while I watched Ziggy and others dodge full speed putters and rocs. All the while I was thinking, "This kid has to go out and play in the finals tomorrow!" You would NEVER see something like that at a pro worlds. Crazy people.

And the other player's party had all the free pizza you could stuff in your mouth. It was just unfortunate the weather put a slight damper on the first ever Am Worlds Glow tournament.

BTW: Players pack consisted of at least...
Unique Revolution Bag (they will never do Red and White again!)
3 Discs (First Run Star Cro, Midnight Avenger SS, &amp; Rouge)
Polo Shirt
The FIRST EVER DGTV DVD of Am Worlds (will be sent out in Sept. sometime.)
Caddy Book of all the courses.
Mini, stickers, &amp; coupons.
Plus I am sure I am forgetting something.

This was one of the BIGGEST players packs in Am Worlds HISTORY.



Im sure with some digging we could see how deep the payout was in 2004 and 2006 but from just a quick look I cannot find nor can I remember how deep it was but I do know that both years it went farther down than the people who qualifyed to play in the Semis if that means anything. Sounds like the players pack was almost identical to that of the 2006 pack in Tulsa........A Custom never produced again Revolution bag........3 top of the line discs and Caddy book of all the courses and stickers and minis. Which was pretty close to the Iowa players pack but Iowa gave a duffle bag instead of the Custom Revo bag.

And if what you say is true and the PDGA picks the payout it would seem to me that either Terry Miller and crew made off with alot of money or they just didnt get the sponsorship that the 2004 and 2006 worlds had since all the divisions were close to the same in attendance all three years!!!

Just be nice to see how the math was done and see if Terry and the Wisconsin were just mearly lacking in Sponsorship compared to the Iowa and Tulsa crews or if Terry and the Wisconsin crew just have really fat pockets after putting on this years Am Worlds. If sponsorship and attendance and everything else was just about the same then the payout leaves alot of money unaccounted for. But I have yet to hear anyone say that they were lacking in sponsorship or any other area of support for that matter.

I would say that any state or crew offering to run a Worlds would to well to consults the teams from 2004 and 2006 as I attended both worlds and was VERY VERY impressed by both and the payouts along with EVERYTHING else was TOP NOTCH!!!

Oh and EVERYONE come to worlds in KZOO I hear rumors of some pretty big things in the works for next year and if all goes as I am hearing it will be a worlds no one will want to miss no matter what they think of the courses!!!

Hey all, just wanted to sound off on how great a time we had on our adventure to Milwaukee. Thank you to all the staff and volunteers for their hard work on a very smoothly run tournament. We traveled 4000 miles round trip and are very happy we did. The time we spent on the road as a family was absolutely priceless. A world champion (Nick Duran, my son) in the car made the ride home alot better. It was a pleasure to have met all of you and hope to meet you all again next year in Michigan.......Manny Duran

on the operational side, would players like to redeem their winnings from their choice of retailers? that would guarantee everyone gets exactly what they want, altho they might wait a few days.if they went with an off-site or online store. if i had $300 coming to me, a great selection would be more important than having them immediately.

Manny, it was a pleasure watching your son win the championship(I was the one taking score during the final 9)
Conrgats and i am glad you had a good time!

I know the payout for both 2004 and 2006 worlds was at least 100th place.

2006 I took 106th plave and still got 45 in funny money.

Thank you Terry and crew. The week ran smooth as silk.

Thank you Terry and crew. The week ran smooth as silk.



I agree. :cool:

Just curious as to how the MM1 division in minigolf and edge did. I entered in MM1 and am listed in MA1 with no MM1 listed. :confused:

Who do I contact about getting this information?

Thanks for a great week Milwaukee Crew and PDGA!

Thanks Wyatt,

Especially for all the times you have been there to take David to and from playing when I had to work, which I'm sure, contributed in no small part to his success

Special note to Eddie Garmon from NC. Next year is YOUR year. We all know what you can do.



Your welcome David Sr. It's always may pleasure. You know I think of David Jr. as an adpoted son.

And thank you in return. Andrew spends as much time at your house as David at our's.

I agree Eddie in 08. I just hope he can follow the u13 final again. His support and encouragement for the boys was priceless.

....or if Terry and the Wisconsin crew just have really fat pockets after putting on this years Am Worlds.



I can personally report that I saw Terry and his closest staff members heading for the Pro Worlds in the new Lifetime Disc Sports private jet purchased from the Am Worlds profit. An insider told me that the trip included fresh lobster flown in from Maine and imported Russian caviar. I'm also under the impression that the stewardess staff dressed in lingerie was paid for more than flight support services!

As for the rest of the staff that stayed back, we have almost finished the champagne from the 'after worlds' party, and still have some leftover Kobe beef. Perhaps we can send some down to you? :p

I wasn't there. I don't care about plastic, payout, or Am Worlds. Just send some cheese!!!! :D

Some Wisconson brats and a Packer cheesehead would be cool also. :)

Thank you Terry and crew. The week ran smooth as silk.



I agree. :cool:

Just curious as to how the MM1 division in minigolf and edge did. I entered in MM1 and am listed in MA1 with no MM1 listed. :confused:

Who do I contact about getting this information?

Thanks for a great week Milwaukee Crew and PDGA!



I noticed for the Pros that the divisions for Mini Golf and EDGE were open, then Seniors (50+). I am assuming that they did the same for AMs, so the MM1s would be in the open div for those events.

Tim, I think that is uncalled for, and trying to imply thoughts that are not valid, or supported with facts. It is not fair to just mention the thorns on a rose bush without identifying the flowers bloomed. I personnaly think your comment is out of line, and you should take your comments to the source, not this thread. I had a great time, the cost was appropiate, the Team from Milwaukee did a great job on the courses. Wish I could have rewarded them more in thise efforts. Because of them, we get to compete.
Mini Thumber

Or the TD can use the profit to make your courses nicer for the players at the event, add amenities such as a player party, etc..., and maybe, just maybe you can pay your other expenses such as paint, tee signs, caddy books, programs, pencils, water coolers (there's lots more than that, these are just some examples), and then maybe, after you've put in 2 years of hard work and planning, just maybe, your club, or even you (the TD) can make a little money from the from the event. There's absolutely NOTHING wrong with that! The players have a great time, get paid out well (you say you had to buy the stuff...well, whatever, under your system on here, you wouldn't even get ANYTHING, so $80 would go to other players). I guarantee you the staff for this tournament, no matter what profit they make, don't even get 5% of the worth of the toil and sweat they put into it.

Again, you don't seem to get it. Here's how I see your argument:

ACTUAL PAYOUT: You pay $110 entry fee. 530 people get $130 stuff each, about 200 people get roughly $50 more each in payout.

YOUR IDEA: You still pay $110 entry fee. 330 people get nothing (why should they have to buy anything?). 200 people get roughly $400 each.

Again, your argument comes down to the DISTRIBUTION of the payout. Whether the swag was bought, donated, paid for, or whatever, whatever it is is going into the prize pool. In the actual way, 530 different people get stuff from the various manufacturers. In your way, 200 people do. Which way do you think the advertiser (the sponsor) prefers? I guarantee it's the actual way, because he gets his product in the hands of more people. And it gets closer to the thought of amateurism...people getting a nice bang for your buck, but not playing for personal monetary or large material profit.

If you want to go to a Worlds with a $20 entry fee for trophy only, and you don't have to "buy" anything, we can talk about that. But I don't sense that's your argument.

Chap



OK, I didn't communicate my point yesterday:
You can't convince me that all the items in the player packs were bought at wholesale, or even close. They were sold to players as retail? If they made JUST $4 profit on each player pack, that would be over $2000 total. Of course I don't know exactly how much they paid for each item, but Bruce gave a pretty nice price breakdown. I can't believe they would have made less than $20 per player pack. That's $10,000. Count nearly 100% markup on payouts. 100% markup on payouts at $20 per person is $5,000 alone (This is not greedy, as they can't control retail prices. But bottom line they made 5 grand on payouts.) So that's $15,000 PROFIT right there. Don't tell me that all goes to expenses, the PDGA gives thousands of dollars to the Am Worlds to cover those expenses, which comes out of our yearly member dues. Don't exaggerate about private jets and kobe beef, obviously there was lots of money made from the players at Worlds. That money could have been given back to the players that support the PDGA and this event.

[begin thread drift...}

For those of you who met Team Rizbee last week, here's an update. WE'RE NOT HOME YET - STILL PLAYIN'!!!!!!

Check out the great media coverage the Tour de Rizbee received at: Hancock Couty Journal-Pilot (http://www.journalpilot.com/articles/2007/08/01/sports/sports1.txt) .

Today (Thursday) is Day 19. Totals so far:

47 Courses
826 Holes

We're heading down the home stretch!!!!! We have met so many wonderful people and have lots of stories and memories to share. See you 4pm Saturady at Sun Valley!!!

[end thread drift - return to previously scheduled grousing about payouts...]

Tim, I think that is uncalled for, and trying to imply thoughts that are not valid, or supported with facts. It is not fair to just mention the thorns on a rose bush without identifying the flowers bloomed. I personnaly think your comment is out of line, and you should take your comments to the source, not this thread. I had a great time, the cost was appropiate, the Team from Milwaukee did a great job on the courses. Wish I could have rewarded them more in thise efforts. Because of them, we get to compete.
Mini Thumber



Actually, if you look closer at the context of the post (and note its sarcastic nature), you will probably conclude that it is in made in response to posts that were uncalled for and should have been taken off-line. That's the main point of it.

Oh, and I am part of the staff (Team of Milwaukee) you mention, so thank you for your comments!

Among other things, Tim spotted Hole 12 at Dineen and suffered some nasty stings recovering a disc for Chuck Hornsby. Thanks again, Tim.

Quote:

Don't exaggerate about private jets and kobe beef, obviously there was lots of money made from the players at Worlds. That money could have been <font color="red"> given back </font> to the <font color="red"> players that support the PDGA </font> and this event.

No problem, and it was great meeting you and many others!

I have to say, the Senior Grand division (among others) really displayed what a DG tournament should be all about. Everyone pulling for each other and encouraging each other, and everyone out enjoying the special occasion that such gatherings really are. Maybe getting older makes you appreciate more how fortunate you are to be there, especially if you know of others who are only participating in memory.

Quote:

Don't exaggerate about private jets and kobe beef, obviously there was lots of money made from the players at Worlds. That money could have been <font color="red"> given back </font> to the <font color="red"> players that support the PDGA </font> and this event.



Obviously there was lots of money made from players at Worlds? You don't know that, and I don't know that. So to state it as fact is inappropriate and disrespectful. You know your avenues if you have questions, so please pursue them if desired.

Josh, I just edited this as I am not 100% sure of your intent. I hope I am misreading what you are trying to communicate here, with the 'quote' as the first part of your post putting the doubt in my interpretation. I hope this is so, and if so I apologize for what was here and what is stated in the paragraph above.

Yeah that is fine.

I was just trying to see what he was getting at. Same as what your asking. So No worries Tim!!

Thank you again for helping out this year!!

Thanks Tim for clearing that up for me. I was reading into it, and am very appreciative of the Milwaukee staff and all staff that do tnmts. I was just lookin out for them, didn't like all the bashing that I was reading. Thanks also for spottin, and all you do.

Mini Thumber

Cool, Josh. Hope to see you soon.

Hey, I got a kick out of the Widye 'sponsored' players at Worlds!

I was just trying to see what he was getting at. Same as what your asking.



I'm not going to make accusations, just present some basic calculations. You quoted my point.

Those Revo bags are the bomb!

Does anybody want to sell theirs? were there any extra left over which will be available for purchase?

I do! ill pm you some details. RJ

Those Revo bags are the bomb!

Does anybody want to sell theirs? were there any extra left over which will be available for purchase?

Mine's for sale. Kelsey's might be for sale too. They are small bags.

For getting second in singles, Kelsey got a voucher for 100 funny. She sold it for $50. She helps with inventory and ordering, so she knows what funny money is worth! :D

Save on shipping. I might be willing to buy it from you.

Dana Vicich has 2 for sale as well I believe. PM dvicich

No problem, and it was great meeting you and many others!

I have to say, the Senior Grand division (among others) really displayed what a DG tournament should be all about. Everyone pulling for each other and encouraging each other, and everyone out enjoying the special occasion that such gatherings really are. Maybe getting older makes you appreciate more how fortunate you are to be there, especially if you know of others who are only participating in memory.



Before the finals for Advanced women, 3 of the top 4 were playing catch to warm up before the round. They were talking and joking and having a good time. Those women know what they are playing for! You can see pictures of them and more at http://discontinuum.org/index.php?option=com_gallery2&amp;Itemid=45&amp;g2_itemId= 165438

Just as soon as we arrived in Carolina. My wife decided she wants to play Disc Golf. She stated that my new revolution bag was now her's. So for me it's a win, win sit-che-ation. Now it will be easier to convince her we need to roll. Nice Bag

Mini Thumber

Just as soon as we arrived in Carolina. My wife decided she wants to play Disc Golf. She stated that my new revolution bag was now her's. So for me it's a win, win sit-che-ation. Now it will be easier to convince her we need to roll. Nice Bag

Mini Thumber



Bigrock, let Dawn teach her. trust me on this. Your not a good Hand holder when it comes to teaching.

Love ya Brother,

I have been trying to talk my son out of his bag since he got it. It's plenty big enough for me He is still using last years bag he picked up in Tulsa and loves it.

Big Rock- I will never forget that outfit you had on Saturday. I could see you coming a mile away.. You are truly one unforgetable charactor. Good luck on teaching your wife. Wait till she starts telling you and Dawn what disc to use and shot to throw.

Mr Coggins- It was great to see you and the family again. Andrew has picked it up quite a bit this year. How does it feel knowing that you are going to get smoked by your son for the next 30 years? Mabe you will be able to get him to spot you a couple of strokes now and then.

I have been trying to talk my son out of his bag since he got it. It's plenty big enough for me He is still using last years bag he picked up in Tulsa and loves it.

Big Rock- I will never forget that outfit you had on Saturday. I could see you coming a mile away.. You are truly one unforgetable charactor. Good luck on teaching your wife. Wait till she starts telling you and Dawn what disc to use and shot to throw.

Mr Coggins- It was great to see you and the family again. Andrew has picked it up quite a bit this year. How does it feel knowing that you are going to get smoked by your son for the next 30 years? Mabe you will be able to get him to spot you a couple of strokes now and then.



Well PapaRoc, I tried the same thing with Andrew, I get last years at special deal through his used disc and used bag pro shop. I second the Bigrocks out fit. The good thing is we could see him a mile a way at germanfest saturday night.

As far as Andrew beating me. well the the last two events we both played, Horizon classic I placed 20th, Andrew 15th. in Am.
Sanford monthly. me 2nd in adv Masters, Andrew 1st in AM.

so I am already use to it.

Can't wait until next year.

Please remind KidROCk I proud of him. he play his heart out again. as he always does.

Brock lost 7 pounds last week. He would'nt eat and threw up all thursday afternoon. Not to take anything away from Nick Durran. He is an awesome talent and Manny is an excellent caddie. Congrats Nick on the World Championship. Next year will be quite a battle. Look out next year in doubles.

Look out next year in doubles.



Not saying this because Andrew is my son and I consider David Jr. an adopted son. But these two have many local "NC" Doubles wins. And these wins are agaist Adv mens teams.

For Brock and Marc to do what they did in the second round was something to be proud of. The only edge we have is Andrew and David Jr. train together as a team leading up to worlds. And Against David Sr and Myself when we can.

Ok, I'm not sure, but it seems reasonable to conclude that the promoters made more profit on the AM Worlds this year than in years past. Lacking any convincing evidence to the contrary, I've seen some pretty convincing evidence to support that.

What is fair? I guess it depends. There are some things we can all agree on.

1. We are all thankful that for the tremendous effort that the volunteers and promoters put in. Without them we would have no tournament

2. In our capitalist society, one cannot ignore the profit motive, though other motives certainly exist as well. For this reason, the players are motivated to want the biggest payout possible, and the promoter is motivated to make as much profit as is possible within certain bounds such as his/her reputation. Therein lies the basis of the current discussion.

The promoter, to increase participation, hence entry fee receipts, is motivated to exaggerrate the benefits of the tournament and downplay the idea that any profit was made to protect his reputation as a "generous" promoter. (hence future profits)

AMs may play for the love it, but also don't like to pay more for the love of it than is necessary and don't like to feel taken advantage of or misled.

3. The PDGA is a member oraganization that is democratically elected and is supposed to represent the best interests of all its members.

4. The AM worlds is a PDGA special event - in a sense a monopoly once the right to host it has been awarded. For this reason, the PDGA in representing it's members should seek out the most return to it's members in awarding the rights to a promoter to host the AM Worlds. The percentage of entry fees returned to the players would be one consideration.

Given all of the above, I'd assert the following:

There is a large demand for an AM Worlds tournament. The PDGA should award the right to host such a tournament to the group that best represents PDGA members interests. The relationship of entry fees to payout, being quite important should be definitely be considered.

If there is only one group stepping up to host AM Worlds, then I'd wager that most of us would be willing to grant that group (within reason) a good profit to make sure that we have an AM Worlds to compete in.

It is the PDGA's responsibility, as it's members representative, to try to convince many potential venues, promoters etc, that hosting the AM Worlds would be valuable to them (tourism dollars, etc, etc) Then the PDGA would have some bargaining power and be able to insist for example that a promoter return a certain percentage of the entry fees as payout exclusive of any donated items they also distribute to the players.

I've seen reasonable and good points on both sides of this debate, but nothing will change by posting messages on this forum, though it may create a lot of hard feelings.


Anyone who is unhappy with the way the PDGA represents it's members in awarding AM Worlds should take it up with their PDGA reps. and let them know that they intend to vote for a rep. that represents it's members interests.

PS - Wyatt, I used your post to respond to, not because of anything you said in your post, but just because I wanted to post this message

good analysis.

My outsider's perspective (I took pictures on Wednesday and Saturday but did not play):

-The courses were in great condition.
-They had great course TDs, volunteers, spotters, etc.
-The play felt like Worlds. Lots of players from all over...seeing lots of people that I only see once a year or once every couple of years, etc.
-I thought the trophies (plaques) were very cool...I thought that if everyone would get together and point the reflection off them in one place they could have started anything on fire! :D
-The amount of merchandise that they had out on Saturday did not seem like enough for Worlds. I know that they said that they were holding some back, but it seemed like it was only two regular tables of merch and that just doesn't look right. It would be nice to have some type of online method to redeem Worlds script later at home if you don't see what you want at the tables. This would also alleviate the need to haul back a bunch of stuff. I think the option should be there for immediate gratification, but it would be nice to offer other methods as well. For that matter it might be nice to offer shipping for those people that won a basket.

Jon,

I do know that in 2004 Worlds did provide script online shopping after the tournament.

Josh

Jon,

I do know that in 2004 Worlds did provide script online shopping after the tournament.

Josh



A lot of that was because Des Moines basically ran out of merchandise, and so did Todd Breiner, according to Becky Z.

Chap

Yep that's what I was told too John.

It was very nice to have the option.

Peace...