Hello Dave, just a note of thanks for the Glo Coyote. I got a few and began throwing a X-out version. My question about these is this: My x-out is a very domey "Poppy Top" version while the Star Stamped non-X is almost flat, similar to the regulaur runs. Why is it that I always seem to find the "Poppy Topped" version of Innova discs?

Is it a blessing from God?


I think it is. This poppy version { Yes. It pops back and forth with pressure} is more like a beat-in Shark, and is the perfect compliment to my normal Coyote. Is there a way to create a poppy top effect on all the discs or was this one just a freak?

Chase there is a way to do it. It is a new plastic that we have, but it still has to be mixed with heavier plastic to get the proper weights. Therefore, it is mix dependent to some extent unless we use more of the new material. Some discs are better domey like the Coyote and SLs, and some are better flatter like Firebirds. Of course, flatness and domeyness are also a matter of taste to the thrower. I personally like domey in all of my discs.

Dave,

I was really curious about what Chase was asking also...I throw the sidewinder quite a bit, I have noticed there are flatter topped sidewinders and domey topped sidewinders. The flat top SW fly a little more stable.

If it helps, the two Champ SW's I'm throwing right now:

171 pink which is the domey one and a 166 which is the flatter topped one...

So my question is do the flatter topped SW's come that way from the factory (rare) or could it be that the disc had been weighted down by a stack of discs or what not??

Thanks in advance,
mc

any chance Climo or others want the special edition teebird back?

Hmmmmm.........CE Red Candy TL's..............Yummy !!!!!! /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

no not ce special edition

M_Conners, the flatness could have happened in the factory or during shipping from heat and pressure changes. Domey Sidewinders are what we are trying to make. Flat ones are less desireable from our point of view.

matchu, there is a chance, but we are not planning on it at this time.

It has to be as stiff as DX. The stiffer the driver , for myself , the greater the punch through the air.

Plus , don't have to worry about the beak of the disc , bending !!!!!

Some of that soft stuff , once the rim is bent, that disc is done.

The Special Edition is easier to grip though !!!!

well, that you are thinking about is A-OK in my book, now to get scoot_ers pop to sell me his stash of special ed. tls

Scoot_Er:?

any chance Climo or others want the special edition teebird back?



That would be great. The old SE Teebirds are all-time fav disc. I only have 1 left and it is beat :confused: Please bring back the SE Teebirds

PikNik

Dave,
Why was the SE plastic discontinued? Is it just b/c the KC Pro plastic was a better plastic? Sorry if this has been answered before.

PikNik

http://i24.ebayimg.com/01/i/04/b8/6a/38_1_b.JPG

Dave-Any idea if this is a big bead or not? It is definately an Aviar.

Dave, so if Ken Climo wanted you to make Teebirds in the KC Pro plastic, you would?

Im not sure if Ken throws Teebirds, (although Im pretty sure he does) but what kinds plastic does he prefer for the Teebirds (if he throws them)

Thanks in advance, I commend you MUCH for answering ALL these questions.

Ill4mation,
From watching him play at worlds it looked like he had a 10x Teebird for rollers and an 11x Proline(candy) teebird for accurate slow fading straight shots.

The dude with the Aviar: YOu will be able to tell if you look at the bead on the bottom.. or put up a picture of it from the side so we can see the bead.. a small bead looks almost beadless and a bigbead looks like a KC pro or JK pro aviar.

-Scott Lewis

Dave , can you give us some insight as to when we might expect to see the wraith?? :D

pikNik, yes, the KC Pro was more durable.

Turn it sideways and let us see the bead . . . . ??

rendroc, I don't know, but the Seneca Soiree people might.

Ill4mation, Ken throws Champion Tees last I looked. Three or four were in his bag. If Ken wanted a different blend, I would try to accommodate him.

Esalazar, I expect the Pro Wraith to be released Monday, but stuff happens. The Champion Version will be a fundraiser for the Augusta Worlds. They won't be available for several weeks. I believe they will be $20.00 with a hotstamp. Probably more with an INNColor decoration.

Thanx dave , I am looking forward to acquiring some of both!! :D

If I had a picture of the side of the disc, then it would be pretty easy to tell

I have a few of those, they are big bead aviars. :cool:

Hi Dave, thanks for answering that one.

What about the stamping process? Im sure you have been over this before, but does that have an affect on the domey/ flat discs?

And... I got a DX Aviar that has the stamp burned on the disc itself, all the others I have do not. The stamps are easily wore off with use, and bag travel, but this Aviar has a stamp that is almost burned into it. The plastic also feels alot stiffer than my other DX Aviars. Is this one of the discs that was run iin the discontinued DX plastic? It seems to feel alot like those Rocs, but I wasnt sure if the Aviar was also done in that DX mix. Thanks Dave.

Matt-Thank you, that is what I wanted to hear.

Dave, there is rumor of pink glo discs. Is it true? Where might I be able to procure such a wonderous thing?

Thanks for your input on the Viking too. Helped a bit. I might go grab that other wonderfully colored pearly salmon Viking before someone else finds it!!

Dave are there going to be any Wraith's run in the Special Blend plastic like the night shift orc? How about the Coyote?

Hi Dave, long time reader, first time asker.

Hey I have an old Moray, which I love though I might be the only person, and an old GloShark. I love the feel of that old plastic. Both are at least 10 years old probably. Is the DX plastic the same as the old plastic. It looks shinier and feels better, almost proline or champion.

And speaking of the moray, will we ever have another?

Dave, there is rumor of pink glo discs. Is it true?


I have a pink glow Coyote, and SM Roc's too. DGA used to run the Midnight Flyer in pink glow for 40 & 70 molds.

Chase the hotstamp doesn't affect the flight plate unless it is burned on. Other decorating processes could affect it. Full color does affect the flight plate somewhat. INNColor doesn't seem to.

ajones, we haven't made any pink glo in a while.

Erron, probably yes in both, but I don't know when.

luckyg71, that was a different type of DX. Most people did not like it as it caused the discs to be slightly unstable. It did have a good feel. The Moray mold still exists and we have plans to produce limited amounts of every mold that still exists at some point. So far, our schedule has not allowed it, but sooner or later it will.

Speaking of the Special Blend plastic, has any been used in the CFR Starfire-L's, and, if so, could you tell me which tournaments have used this plastic?

I have a few of those, they are big bead aviars. :cool:

Assuming, of course, that the MADC folks only ordered BB Aviars with that stamp. :D

ajones, we haven't made any pink glo in a while.


Then my Coyote must be really rare. Was 1 of 12 that I got out of discgolfvalues.

I'm very frustrated with the whole CFR disc thing and had to vent. I have a 2003 CFR Starfire that I got for $10 from someone selling a bunch of their stuff and I love it...it's my favorite driver. Unfortunately, I can't be spending $25 per disc to get a replacement for it so once it's gone or broken in too much, then I have to get used to a new mold.

I understand the whole concept behind CFR discs, but when stuff that comes out like the new Wraith that will only be CFR (pro plastic doesn't last long in the heavily-wooded courses of Oregon) and is only available for $20/disc, it causes a lot of frustration. Why do so many different discs have to be CFR-only? We now have the TLs, ELs, StarfireX, StarfireL, Wraith, Roc, and whatever else there is. I like the concept of glow candy discs being used as CFRs because I can still throw something of the same mold even if it isn't as cool and the Rocs have achieved such a cult status that it would be unlikely that they will ever be a regular production run, but I was really excited about the new Wraith and the news that the Champ plastic will only be available at high prices is just a huge letdown :(.

The new advances in disc art are popular and the intrinsic value of those are often enough to generate fundraiser sales...aren't there already enough discs that are widely unavailable than there don't need to be any new ones set aside for that purpose? A disc with the speed and glide of the Wraith would be very popular and appreciated by a lot more people if it was widely available than if it's made for a select few willing to shell out a bunch of cash for a single disc.

Props to Discraft for making the Z Avenger a regular production disc.



Just found as new thread but good question......

furthur, I don't know of any special blend for Starfires yet.

flynvegas, that Coyote was pinkish with glow, but doesn't glow pink. There are phosphorescent pigments that glow blue orange pink green etc. Our glow is green.

But, the disc itself is pink just glows a different color?

I need more pink! :D

Dave: I use to throw Ching Fusion Tanks. I now throw Rhynos by default. Anyway we can see the beadless versions, ie tanks , resurface in the SE versions???

Donnie, probably not. The name belongs to Ching. What do you like better about the Tank? Grip, flight, etc.?

The grip.. it seems to come out of the hand smoother.
Also seemed to hold the flight longer as a putter. I don't throw them as Mid-range so I wouldn't know about that.

Chase.. sounds like a classic aviar.. is it grid stamped or is it the regular DX aviar stamp?

all my classics are stiff as hell and the stamp even when rubbed off is still visible.

-Scott Lewis

Wooky, thats why I asked if the Starfire would be a regular run Champion disc. I can see a few being CFR, but when a HOT new mold comes out, make one regular production and one CFR.

Chase.. sounds like a classic aviar.. is it grid stamped or is it the regular DX aviar stamp?

all my classics are stiff as hell and the stamp even when rubbed off is still visible.


Scott, its a normal DX Aviar. It does seem a little stiffer than the normal, but is not a "stiffy". I think it was stamped multiple times, but its hard to tell, as they were nearly identical stamps, and the lettering is slightly taller than the other DXs I have laying around.

-Scott Lewis

Dave, what�s the difference between the Ontario and Rancho Rhyno?

Hey Dave. This is non disc related, but. I sent you a PM and I was just checking to see if you got. Loving those Coyotes by the way.

mf100, no difference as far as I know. Duplicate molds.

PikNik, what did you like about the SE TeeBird. Flight? Grip? Wearing?

PikNik, what did you like about the SE TeeBird. Flight? Grip? Wearing?



Dave,
I really liked the way that disc gripped. I switched to the KC Pro teebirds when the SE was discontinued but it didn't have the same feel in my hand. The SE has superior grip (in my opinion). Also, the SE seemed a little more versatile to me compared to the KC Pro and CE versions. It holds any line that you put it on...not to mention that it is a great long distance flip disc. The other plastics are great in the teebird mold...the SE is the perfect combination of durability, grip, accuracy for my game. I hope I'm not alone in this...

PikNik

WORD! on the SE Teebird

That sounds like all the reasons I loved my recently retired Pro TL. It got me my first ever ace along with an $81 ace pot. It will be replaced shortly.

Hey Dave. Will the Wraith be another wide rim disc difficult to mold in lower 150-160g weights?

Also, any ETA on the next run of ProStarfires and will you still be shooting for lower weights in that mold?

As always, we appreciate your time and efforts.

Riverdog, yes the Wraith will only go down to 170gms with the ocassional freak disc a little lower. At some point we will test it in DX to see how durable it is. We would be able to mold 150 gm in DX with no problem. We are running Pro Starfires right now. Weights go down to 165gm for now.

Is it harder to mold to 150 for the wide rimmed drivers in Champion or Pro? A 150 Champion Wraith just might be the downwind disc for me! That much speed, and glide....whew!

Thanks for the info Dave. Shoot, or words to that effect.

Following in the same vein, Innova product updates have been referring to more 150g discs in Champ and Pro plastic in the not too distant future. Specifically, or as much so as possible, can we expect discs that have previously been unavailable in the 150g class? What molds?

Once again, danke Dave.

Long range drivers damage easily compared to mid range. Some long range drivers wouldn't last a week in DX. Others might fair OK. The SL and the Wraith might do okay. If not, we won't make them. It's not that it's hard to make 150 class candy, in the big rimmed discs, it's impossible. The candy material is heavier than DX. For instance, a Candy Roc can weigh as little as 150 gms, but a DX Roc can weigh as little as 113 gms.

I found the wear pattern on the SE TLs to be slower than the Pro TLs. My Pro TL went from its original flight pattern to very flippy in short order without any help from tree hits or significant roughing of the edges. The SEs seem to get that way alot slower. My Pro TL is orange and was purchased soon after it was released. My SEs are dyed, but I don't know when they were made as I got them later on the secondary market.

The durability is what sets the SE above the Pro for me. Thanks Dave. Your questions show me that you care about Innova customers.

P.S. Props to Alex - It was a sweet looking ace resulting from a much improved drive!

Hi Dave,

i have a recommendation that might sell more Hydras: put "floats in water" on the stamp.

it says that on the Hydra.

wow, you're right . i was helping a disc seller once and thought sure a floating disc didn't say it floats on the stamp. Maybe it was the Dragon? :confused:

guess i was a little quick on offering my 'helpful' advice /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Hi Dave, back on page 18 and 19 of this thread we talked about the DX mix that was discontinued, mainly involving Rocs and Beasts. I was curious what led you to stop using this mix? I took out the DX Beast again and seen some incredible distances last night, and this disc is still new. It is still stiff as a board and is mad overstable. It is easily the most overstable Innova driver Ive ever thrown. It wasnt until we started throwing huge 25-30ft anhysers that this disc showed its real potential. Its tragic these discs arent going to be back, as they would break the distance record.




*** To everyone else: I am looking for these DX Beasts if you have them to get rid of. New only. They are stiff as a board and the top will pop/ snap when pressure is equally applied on both sides { think 10 and 2} with your thumbs. Max weight or 174g. PM me.

Chase, the problem with that material, as I recall, was running it. The operators could not get past the learning curve. Plus, it would make all of our discs dome up. Many players like the flatter lower profile type. I am still looking for a better DX material. Not so much for the dominess, but for the durability.

I would like all my discs in special blend!!!please!! :D

yea- my fave plastic is the special blend, and the dga fusion plastic is very similar.

I too would love to have the Rocs in the old DX. I know Dave said they tend to be more domey but Ive got quite a stash of Flat Rocs in the old DX and I love them...

Dave-It always felt to me as if the 11x KC Roc had a bigger bead than the DX Roc. What say you? Is there some other difference in the mold? Maybe it's not the bead, but I feel something different.

Hey Dave, have you set a date for the Roadrunner release?

Chase, the problem with that material, as I recall, was running it. The operators could not get past the learning curve. Plus, it would make all of our discs dome up. Many players like the flatter lower profile type. I am still looking for a better DX material. Not so much for the dominess, but for the durability.



Thanks Dave. I guess Im more of a dome man, myself.

Rendroc, the beads are the same, but there are two variations of edges. The old edge is more concave than the new lower outer edge. The new type is Rancho.

ajones, no. Most likely it won't be released for at least a month. They will be certified by next week and we have been testing them for two weeks, but a molding slot will not open up for several weeks. We could do a short intro run, but that would probably cause more problems than it's worth.

Sounds good Dave. Thanks!

So, is the KC Roc that is now being run a different mold than the DX Roc now being run?

Thank you Dave

Rendroc, they are both the new version now, but there are both kinds still around. The Special Blend USDGC Rocs were the older or "Ontario" type.

I really liked the way that disc gripped. I switched to the KC Pro teebirds when the SE was discontinued but it didn't have the same feel in my hand. The SE has superior grip (in my opinion). Also, the SE seemed a little more versatile to me compared to the KC Pro and CE versions. It holds any line that you put it on...not to mention that it is a great long distance flip disc. The other plastics are great in the teebird mold...the SE is the perfect combination of durability, grip, accuracy for my game. I hope I'm not alone in this...



I concur. I love the last SE TeeBird I have left. It has lasted years -- even after nailing trees. It's easier to grip than the champion TeeBirds that I mostly throw today, but not as floppy as the pro-Teebird I bought when that first came out.

I do like the pro plastic that the Starfire is run in, but either because the mold is more sensitive or the plastic is softer, the Starfire is not as durable as the old SE TeeBird.

I wonder how the SB/Nightshift plastic would do in the TeeBird mold.

Is there going to be a pro sidewinder run anytime soon?

Hey Dave,
One of my favorite discs has to be the XD. It seems to be a disc that I always go to to get me out of those "sensitive" situations I find myself in so often. :eek: However, it was never made in a more durable plastic (at least that I know of). Why is that? and are there any plans to do a run of champ XDs?
Thanks!

Yardbird, no, no Pro Sidewinders soon, but we will test it in Pro and evaluate it. It is scheduled to be run soon.

agitpropdiscs, I don't believe we have tested the XD in candy or Pro. We see the XD as a Putt & Approach and have felt that DX was better for tha than Candy. We have however made the Classic Roc in Pro and Candy. The Classic is similar to the XD, but a little more stable. At least that was the case for the original runs of Classics. The Classic Roc was recently repaired and is solidly stable now instead of softly stable, (akin to the XD), as it had gotten over the years.

...The Classic Roc was recently repaired and is solidly stable now instead of softly stable, (akin to the XD), as it had gotten over the years.


Hi Dave! Thanks for your time.
When was the Classic Roc repaired? Are CE, CFR, and Pro Classic Rocs the repaired mold? Is there any way to distinguish the repaired model?

Hi Dave, I have 2 questions. First of all, who tests disc and determines whether they will be produced or not. Do you hold any kind of events like the "Discraft Ace Race" or do you or the sponsered players evaluate them? Second, And I don't want you to take this the wrong way, but I have noticed something odd about Innova. The better a disc is (and comming from an amatuer thrower), the more it costs. I have a CFR TL that I LOVE TO DEATH and it does whatever I want. However, If i ever lose it I'm screwed cause I can't shell out $20-30 for each disc. But it is one of the easiest to throw and the most forgiving. The pro plastic just doesn't do it for me. I have a pro firebird, pro teebird, and pro starfire that all 3 fly like beat up stingrays now, and the starfire has never even hit anything but grass and dirt. Have you considered making all those GREAT CFR discs as Candy, regular production discs. For me, I think it would be great if some of the CFR discs were regular production and you could still have the $25-45 CFRs as Champion Glow, Special Blend/Night Shift/CE, and/or Full Color.
Once again, I'm just a poor amatuer (in skill and money). I just think it would be better for the sport to make more discs available to younger, poorer, learning players. You could still have the CFRs and make more discs available for cheaper. Once again, I'm not trying to hit a nerve, I am just frustrated with losing my favorite discs and not having the money to replace them. I love Innova and what they do for the sport and I wouldn't be improving in the sport if it weren't for you and them. Thanks.

whorley, most of the DX, and I believe all the Pro and Champion are the newer type. They can be distinguished from the old if held side by side. The newer have a blunter nose. They can be compared to XDs the same way. The XDs have the sharper, rounder nose. The Champion Classic Roc was in the CFR line, but is not any longer.

accidentalroller, the suggested retail price range for hotstamped CFR is currently $20 - $30. We sell them to the dealers for less than normal candy prices. This is a way for the tournaments to get sponsorship. We could lessen the suggested retail to $15 - $25, but the tournaments would not make as much per disc. On the other hand, they might, as you suggest, sell more of them and thus make just as much or possibly more. We do not want to take the CFRs from the tournament promoters as it is one of the few ways they have to get sponsorship revenue, but lowering the suggested retail price might be a good alternative. As for testing: I have a group of five former World Champions, plus our Innova team members that do the testing. I usually am the one to decide if they will be produced or not. That decision is based on a number of factors besides how the disc flies. Not only does it have to fly well, it has to do something, or be something different than what we already have. And we have to be able to produce it without too much trouble in terms of molding, material, and hotstamping.

Dave,
I totally agree with the whole CFR disc idea, and I am totally for the tournament sponsership revenue. I guess there is no easy way to replace CFR mold discs except with CFR mold discs. I guess I either need to get better and place high enough to get discs to sell to replace my lost ones, or just get better and quit losing them in the first place. I think everyone needs to profit from the whole CFR program, even the people who want/need those discs who aren't pros or rich. And I am all for buying x-outs of the CFR discs, but they are getting to be almost as expensive. If you know where I can buy anykind of Champion Plastic TL X-out or Coyote x-outs, then I will be the 1st one there buying a few.

Hello Dave
I just purchased a brand new Innova tour bag. I have only used it 5 times max and now the drawstring part of the water bottle holder has separated from the insulated part. I have heard of a few other friends that purchased the same bag and had other parts of the bag fall apart at seems. My question is: is there a warranty on these bags and am I the only one with a problem that you have heard about. By the way I had a deluxe Innova bag for 3 years and never had a stitch come out.

big e, yes, there is a warranty, and you can get the bag replaced. This has happened to other tour bags with faulty stitching.

accidental roller, there probably are several places to buy those discs as x outs. Two, that I know of are discgolfvalues.com on the west coast and zonedriven.com on the east coast.

I just want to say that I had problems with my old tour bag, and Innova sent me a new 2005 one... and it rocks!!!

The new 2005 bags are sweet, they hold up much better than previous years. I have to question the logic of two water bottle holders on the same side, but other than that it's awesome!

thanks :)

I was also really excited about the tour bag and agree about the two water bottles on one side. The thing that shocked me most was the durability, I have had my deluxe bag for a few year with no sign of wear at all. But all in all I'm satisfied with Innova's quality.

Hey Dave, I was wondering if you could compare any thing to the old BB glo aviars, the stiff but grippy ones..they are the best and I love to putt with them.. but wouldn't u know it I lost one driving with it and my other is my last putter :(..anyhow I was curious if you thought of making anything the same...

Jay

Hey Dave ,

Just thrown your new disc , the Wraith.

That disc is Fast !!!!! It seems overstable into the wind , and I can trust , throwing it hard.

Thanks !!!!

Donny Olow

Hey Dave ,

Just thrown your new disc , the Wraith.

That disc is Fast !!!!! It seems overstable into the wind , and I can trust , throwing it hard.

Thanks !!!!

Donny Olow



How'd you get one of those? How would you compare it to other innova drivers?

They just came out yesterday. Fast.....Really Fast...........Overstable.............almost Monster stable :eek:
Wicked Sidearm Disc too !!!!!!!

I may try some lighter than 174 grams and see if any difference. :D

jayb, the closest we have now is a KC Aviar and a Pro Aviar. To answer your question; I have thought about it, and think it is a good idea. Probably will do it in the stiffy version, which is a small bead first.

Dave that would be great..but the bb is what u should do first..I love the kc but its a better up shot disc than a putter..the old glo plastic was a little softer and u could grip it better. the pro is a little closer but still missing that great feel..

jay

Dave, rumor has it that the Classic Roc is being removed from the CFR program. That was the last shallow-rimmed, small-diameter midrange available in Champion plastic.

Do you have any recommendations for someone with small hands, who really likes small-diameter, shallow-rimmed, lightweight discs in Champion plastic? I'm looking for something for short drives off the tess that's slower than a Panther, which seems to be all that's left. The Aviar is too tall and deep for my hands.

Thanks!

I was going to send you a suggestion but your private messages are blocked.

Sorry, fixed. Suggestions are most welcome.

i was under the impression that once removed as a cfr disc, the Champion Classic Roc will be available as a non-cfr disc...

big e, yes, there is a warranty, and you can get the bag replaced. This has happened to other tour bags with faulty stitching.


Hi Dave. How do you go about getting a tour bag replaced ? I have used mine about a dozen times and the loops for the quadshocks both tore off the bag. I love the bag, just need waranty info. Thanks Dave. Bye the way, Micah and I went out to Mission trails this past week and threw the wraith around, that thing is awesome, stable, fast, and looooonnngggg.

Mark, we still have them. They will go to regular status, I believe.

bruce, my settings are marked as accepting. Not sure why yours didn't get through.

bobby, Sam can replace it for you.

whorley, most of the DX, and I believe all the Pro and Champion are the newer type. They can be distinguished from the old if held side by side. The newer have a blunter nose. They can be compared to XDs the same way. The XDs have the sharper, rounder nose. The Champion Classic Roc was in the CFR line, but is not any longer.


Thanks for the info! It was very helpful. One more question. Is the CFR Classic Roc out of production, or has it become regular production Champion?

I edited this post. We have stock now in Champ. Classic Rocs. It is being moved to regular Champion Stock. It will not be discontinued as it has its own niche. It is our lowest profile putter approach disc. It is stable, and durable. It has no real faults, and has good assets. The market will dictate how desireable it is over time. They will most likely be available in two weeks.

Thanks, Dave. Very good news indeed. Can I make a request to have them available in light weights, too, or am I pushing my luck?

Dave, I just got done crushing a Pro Starfire. I am amazed, a true believer in fast discs. Anyway the guy I was playing with and I started talking about discs a little bit. When you pick up my 168 Starfire, it feels heavier than his 174 Orc, way heavier.

We figured the Starfire must have more weight in the wing. Is this why the Starfire is so much faster than the Orc? Or, is it a profile difference?

He said profile, I said weighting difference. I started thinking about moment of inertia (I have a BS in Physics so you would think I could figure it out), that was my explanation for the difference. Who was right? Also, do subtle changes in the weight placement make differences, or do the changes have to be fairly drastic?

Just my nerdiness itch needing to be scratched.

Edited to add: Oh, and by the way, Pro plastic is the new greatest thing in my life.

Hi Dave,

i have a recommendation that might sell more Hydras: put "floats in water" on the stamp.



Dave, as another correctly pointed out: the Hydra does say "Floats in Water" on the stamp. Let me attempt to take my foot out of my mouth. :DI meant it might help if Dragons said that ...

Mark, if they are accepted generally, they will be available down to 150 gms. I am not sure what the range is right now with stock on hand, but I imagine it is 165gms to 175 gms. But I am guessing at this point.

ajones, it's hard to answer your question directly as the discs are both rated 10 speed, which means we percieve them as nearly identical in speed. Speed, simply put, is upwind distance potential. The difference you feel in your hand is the inertial moment, and yes, the Pro Starfire has more mass in the rim. But that does not influence speed. It does influence flight characteristic, however, and along with glide and speed helps the Pro Starfire outdistance the Orc in no wind, crosswind, and downwind. Strictly speaking, a lower profile, other drag factors being equal, means a faster disc. The Orc has a lower profile. So , to answer your question, neither of you were right, and subtle changes in weight placement doesn't influence speed, but it does influence flight character such as turning.

Woo hoo, thanks Dave! Sign me up for the Champ Classic Roc at 150!
(Everyone, please buy lightweight Champ Classic Rocs, so Dave keeps making 'em...)

dave, where can we find info on what innova is working on? I know discwing has articles on there ideas...where are yours? It would be great to know whats coming, as well as beneficial to you to hear feedback about the future of our equipment (and wallet thicknesses).

SL, we usually don't want to preview anything too far ahead. But we do sometimes make it known on this message board. On our website we have a coming soon section, but it is usually stuff within a month.

Dave, I know this has been asked before but I bought a Pro Firebird that is DEF. not the NEW pro plastic. It feels like Champion plastic and its a whiteish color but sorta see through, almost milky. What kind of plastic is this?

If it is lighter weight, it could be a mixture of Pro and Candy. If it is max weight, it might have a weighting agent in it which gives a milky appearance. Or, it might be glow candy.

Dave, its not glow and its a 168g. It feels nice too...

Dave,

I ran a fairly detailed search of the DISCussion archives and couldn't find anything, but I'm not sure if you've gone over this or not. Has the Monster been retooled or run with a different bottom? If so, about how long ago?

I was going through a stack of them in inventory and when I had one in each hand, I noticed a distinct difference, one had a much flatter, less concave bottom while the other had a pronounced curve and sharper edge to the rim. Any help is greatly appreciated.

Thanks!
Mike Barnett

Hi Dave,
how can I see the different between Eagle-L and the normal Eagle (Mine are just E�s)

I read that the Roadrunner is approved, do you have any release dates. :D

Sun KIng, the Monster has been run three times. The first run was regular, the second was X, and the latest run was back to regular. The x version proved to be too overstable for anything but the most extreme conditions. We are going to stay with the normal version.

mf100, the normal Eagle is the L type. We had been running X types for a while but have gone back to the original. The X type have a more pronounced concavity on the bevel, while the original type have a flatter bevel. The Roadrunner is scheduled to be released around the end of Sept. or the beginning of Oct.

Dave,

Thanks for the info on the Monster. As long as were talking about the Eagle variants, will the EL version be the primary use mold for the Eagle in the near future or will you revert back to the Eagle-X at some point?

Thanks!
Mike

Dave - Does that mean there are three Eagles (not counting the original pre Aero eagle)? I have some that have a TL like bottom which have great glide and a nice S-curve for me and those don't seem to be covered by the two types you describe. . I have a couple of them in white CE plastic and one in DX. Thanks

There are only two Eagle mold variants; the original, and the X version. Any other variation is from material or molding. The original, (L version) will be the only version in the future, unless we do a special run X type. If that happens, they will not go into regular distribution. They would be a limited run or special edition.

I have now thrown the Pro Wraith a bit more.

For myself , and don't quote me on this, My Pro Wraith is like a Monster Pro StarFire. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

yesterday i had one of my farthest throws ever with the wraith. 178 yds. 524 ft. i was pleased to say the least

How heavy you throw'n ?

Dave, Ive seen people posting on here they have thrown the Pro and Champion Wraith. Is there a Champion model?

Dave, Ive seen people posting on here they have thrown the Pro and Champion Wraith. Is there a Champion model?



On the website it says there are pro and CFR... but no champion is listed.

ill4matiion, yes there is a Champion, but it's a CFR, and it's not available yet. The only ones out so far are being tested.

There are only two Eagle mold variants; the original, and the X version. Any other variation is from material or molding. The original, (L version) will be the only version in the future, unless we do a special run X type. If that happens, they will not go into regular distribution. They would be a limited run or special edition.



When were the X's made? just one run of them?

hey dave, i was wondering if u could make me a ce roc as big as a car tire?
or maybe ce baby pool?
any ideas?

1ab

I have now thrown the Pro Wraith a bit more.

For myself , and don't quote me on this, My Pro Wraith is like a Monster Pro StarFire. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif



I've been throwning mine for a bit and i dont think its that overstable at all... My teebirds are more overstable for sure!!

I just think this is a Longer faster teebird!!!

This disc definately looks like an AVENGER profile but with the flight plane to rim ratio of the FLICK...

I think this is the thinnest flight plane INNOVA has ever made!

The Xs were made after the first two runs, and until recently.

Dave, I recently scored a mint '97 Innova DX driver from World Doubles (orange w/ the 2 Sharks in the black hotstamp) but I'm not sure what model/mold it is. It looks like a smaller diameter Viper in that the lip is very concave...moreso than a Cheetah or an old beat-to-poop Pegasus that I have in my archives. Any idea(s)? Thanks.
doc

circle 2, first thing that comes to mind is a Whippet.

Hmmm?! I'll have to compare those tonight.

Dave was there one or two Pegasus molds...I seem to remember 2 different lips on the wing...kind of like an X-Clone in that it kinda 'stepped up' onto the flightplate...?

circle 2, as far as I know there was only one Pegasus. If there was any change, it would have been on the beveled edge. It had the same edge as a Gazelle. There is a top that has a slight step, but I believe that was an original Tachyon.

Circle 2, I checked on the cavity piece. It was not the Tachyon, but was the Pegasus that had the flat area. It is very subtle and may or may not show up. That is the only top used with the Pegasus.

Dave,

I purchased a very interesting disc tonight. It is labled as a Champion Beast with the Barry Schultz 2 time DGWC tag on it, however, while the top looks like a Beast the bottom does not. It does not have the typical claw shape that modern discs have. If anything, it is convex not concave, reminiscent of the Quarter K. Is this disc a sport or is it something else?

BTW - it doesn't look like a Starfire or any other Innova disc I have seen. The only discs out that I haven't seen are the Wraith and the Starfire SL (although I haven't looked at much of the Pro Plastic except the Starfire).

Finally, I haven't gotten to throw it yet so I don't know anything about stability.

Lyle, you might just have the new Beast. It was retooled, and does resemble the Starfire SL

Dave, is there any truth to the rumor that they might start testing discs for steroid use, and that if they do the Wraith, Starfire, Orc, and Beast are all going to need a lawyer? :DOr, is the rumor spawned by the jealousy of competitors from other lands (a la Lance Armstrong)?

Hey Dave! First, congrats to Innova for some of it's recent winners (for me anyway). I'm loving the Coyote, Sidewinder, Starfire (pro & champ) and now the Wraith. You guys are on a roll!
My question is, where are the discs actually made? I thought they were made in the US, but a friend of mine was questioning the cost of making them here. Are they actually made overseas? And if so, where? Are most manufacturers making them overseas, and who if any of them are not.
Thanks again! Looking forward to the Roadrunner, and any other new discs in the works. :D

Bump

Our discs are all made in Rancho Cucamong, Ca. The only two manufacturers that I know of that are not in the U.S. are Wham-0 (Mexico) and Quarter K (England).

Dave,

I purchased a very interesting disc tonight. It is labled as a Champion Beast with the Barry Schultz 2 time DGWC tag on it, however, while the top looks like a Beast the bottom does not. It does not have the typical claw shape that modern discs have. If anything, it is convex not concave, reminiscent of the Quarter K. Is this disc a sport or is it something else?

BTW - it doesn't look like a Starfire or any other Innova disc I have seen. The only discs out that I haven't seen are the Wraith and the Starfire SL (although I haven't looked at much of the Pro Plastic except the Starfire).

Finally, I haven't gotten to throw it yet so I don't know anything about stability.



Lyle, it is a retooled beast. I think dave mentioned it several pages ago. I think it is supposed to have more glide.

Isn't there a Canadian discmaker [?] .

there's a disc company, but I think Innova molds them???

Our discs are all made in Rancho Cucamong, Ca. The only two manufacturers that I know of that are not in the U.S. are Wham-0 (Mexico) and Quarter K (England).



Hi Dave. Was Innova responsible for the current Wham-O molds as well? Also, what are your thoughts on disc golf becoming more mainstream from a business perspective? Do you forsee Innova working on joint ventures with other companies like Nike and Gateway? { Actually, Im not certain wether or not there is any kind of agreement between Nike and Gateway other than the fact they have tested plastic recieved from them, so obviously the potential is there.} I understand if you dont want to comment on what other companies are doing, but do you feel things like these will benefit disc golf and why? Thanks.

When will we see the first CFR wraiths? I have a feeling that these are going to be hard to come by for a while:mad:, but this sounds like a disc that really sounds fun.

Although some dont like them and they are not too common, I always look forward to a hole where I can just tee off with 100%.

I currently use an orc on the long open holes.

Jaymo, we distributed for the Optimizer, but we didn't make it. It was a Canadian company, but I don't know if they are still around or not.

Chase, we were not directly responsible for the current Wham-0 molds, and have no agreement with them. As for joint ventures; we have had negotiations in the past with companies like Adidas and Nike. These were high volumn type discs, not golf discs, that we were not in a good position to do. We have had joint ventures with the Optimizer people, DGA and Wham-0 in the past, and there is nothing to prevent that in the future. A joint venture between disc golf and a big market player like Nike, Adidas, MacDonald's etc. could get a lot of exposure for disc golf. Just having an advertizer of that magnitude would be huge.

The CFR Wraiths have been produced. We are awaiting artwork at this time. That being said, I can't definitively answer, but I hope it is soon.

Ching make their discs in China.

Aren't the in-step discs also made in china?

I stand corrected about Ching. I don't know anything about in-step.

Aren't the in-step discs also made in china?



I found a pluto driver made by instep and it is made in china. I also found that it is also a P.O.S.

Dave, I want to thank you for making the Sidewinder. I'm a 40 year old player who started in 1980. This disc has the glide which allows me to compete with bigger arms. I don't have any problems controlling it either. I tell fellow golfers, that Dave designed this one just for me.

Keep up the good work....

hello dave--is there a maximum rim width allowed by the pdga? if so, how much wider can the rim be than the wraith, illusion, quarter k, etc.? and also if so, how did the epic get by? maybe they only had to measure it in the narrowest [sic] part of the rim. thanks again

Steven, there is at present no restriction for the rim width. It was being discussed for the past year or so, but nothing has been done.

Hey Dave, I've been using the Bulldog for quite a while now and love it for putting. The only downside is that the stiffness sometimes causes a good bounce and roll on missed putts.

I know you're using the same plastic as the hydra and dragon for these things. Can you run them in a softer JK Aviar type plastic, or is the volume of the mold too big...

Cheers,
DB

Donnie, it's a good idea, and I believe the results were poor when we tried it. It was too difficult to mold them. If we could mold them, I believe they would work well as putters.

Dave, does Innova carry certain models in a "women's classification"? I'm having trouble finding discs for my wife, and kind of wish you made a Pink Ch. Coyote, and other lightweight drivers, etc. Something the lent itself more towards women's interests for a way to bring more women into the sport possible... Also, maybe a web forum/ instruction spot for women as well? I am just rambling, but it might be a good marketing thing, maybe you've already addressed or decided against it.

Thanks for answering my question.

Get her 150 class DX plastic. Not only is it cheap but it only gets easier and easier for her to throw. (as it beats up) I would say get her a 150 Archangle a 150 Roc and a 165-170 gram Aviar to start her out if you want Innova and let her throw those untill she can master them or untill they get to beat up. Then you can either buy new ones of those or start her on some different discs.

hey dave could you please tell me what the ratings for the road runner will be, like this 9,2
-1,4

Ghost, we don't have a women's classification per se, but we do carry colors, weights, and disc types that women prefer. Generally, women seem to prefer lighter weights in drivers, and discs that are not overstable. 150 Class Ch. Valkyries or Sidewinders might be a good choice for her.

gunit, I believe the Roadrunner's numbers will be the same as the Sidewinder except the high speed turn will be one number higher. 9, 5, -4, 1.

Has the plastic for the dragon been changed? I have a translucent yellow, only slightly more opaque than my 1x beast, but someone else has a red one which is completely opaque. I was wondering if it's just the coloring or if the plastic itself has been changed.

Hi Dave,

Lavone Wolfe attended a local tourney in the Cinci area last weekend (Flying Pig Open) and was wearing a red Innova shirt that had a regular crew like collar but was made out of hi-tech material and looked really nice. Are those shirts available for purchase or are they only for Team Innova? (i am planning on attending am nationals next week and that would be a nice shirt to wear ... :D )

Re: rim width. It seems the PDGA shouldn't mess with it as long as they don't become over wt for safety concerns. Which should be set in stone. Still, be carefull when throwing as flat blade drivers are dangerous. One accident involving death or serious injury and the gov could at the very least impose a 150 class rule like Japan. Which would suck horribly.....

The plastic for the Dragon has not changed, but there have been some variations in softness and flight characteristic. The opacity variation is due to color and not plastic.

robj, it doesn't sound familiar. LaVonne might have sent us some shirts to have the Innova loga put on.

Here you go....

innova team jersey (https://www.zonedriven.com/proshop/product_info.php?cPath=53&products_id=78&osCsid=042e1645290cf8da3abd70944170a069)

Dave,
I really like the Sidewinder. I am finding some new distance.

2 things.
1. My mid-range has been the Cobra Classic. I like the flat (flat) profile and the glide. I know this is not a hot item, but are they still being made?
2. (for Dave and anyone else) Does anyone think the Coyote would be a good replacment for my CCs. I usually try to throw them flat and let the disc do a slow turn to the left to about 200'. (The Roc and Champion Cobra don't feel right in my hand and have more turn than I want.) The other thing I do with a CC is a anny to about 180'.

Thanks again for the SW.

I've thrown both Cobras and Coyotes just to learn how they fly. If you learned to drive well with a Sidewinder you can probably learn to approach with a Coyote. You won't have any problem throwing an anny with a Coyote. A Coyote will have more glide at the end of its flight, if thrown fairly flat, than a Cobra. At medium speeds a Coyote will be really honest with you about where you threw it.

ADiscand3Plate, we are not making Classic Cobras anymore. Our regular Cobra (Ontario) will continue to be in our line.

... hey Dave ... Greetings from Tulsa ... what year did you start the QJLS ? ... I know a guy who is trying to replace what he calls "a QJLS 1.1" ... I still have some stock that I had bought in Dec.02 (stamped for "Ice Bowl 2003") ... would those be 1.1 ? ...

I thought the QJLS was a Millenium disc, not an Innova disc... :confused:

... ah yes , grasshopper : so it is ... but the following comparisons apply ...
.
... Ford / Lincoln
.
... Innova / Millennium
.
... :D

Jason,

Millenium is made by Innova :cool:

wforest, I don't recall precisely, but my source here in the office says late 2001 was the debut. My source also says that the first run quantity was only 2000 and stamped with QJLS.

Dave,

I am a bit confused.

The 2x Beast was supposed to be "revamped" and reports that I read said that the disc was similar in feel and style to the Quarter K "cough, cough". But I recently purchased a Beast quickly because I saw it was domey (I really like the domey Beasts and Orcs) and I saw that this Beast was a 2x. I put it up next to a 1x Beast and they are indentical.

Were the people online completely off their rocker when they said it was like the QK? Or did I get an old Beast with a new stamp?

Thanks,

it looks like they put the 2x stamp on both the old and revamped molds. the last shipment we got had one of the older molds and the other 3 were new.

it's a noticable different.

: ) :

Parkn2,

The were a large number of original Beasts stamped with the 2X stamp before the design was changed. before you buy another one, look at the bottom lip, not the dome. if it is close to a straight line from rim to lower lip, much more like a TL, that is a NEW BEAST. It also seems many that I have seen were marked with weight on the inside rim, not on the center of the flightplate. Hope that helps.

Dave,

I am a bit confused.

The 2x Beast was supposed to be "revamped" and reports that I read said that the disc was similar in feel and style to the Quarter K "cough, cough". But I recently purchased a Beast quickly because I saw it was domey (I really like the domey Beasts and Orcs) and I saw that this Beast was a 2x. I put it up next to a 1x Beast and they are indentical.

Were the people online completely off their rocker when they said it was like the QK? Or did I get an old Beast with a new stamp?

Thanks,




I talked to a guy who told me they were more like the original Pro Line Beasts. He made no mention of them being like the QK.

I made mention of them resembling what the QK was supposed to look like.I put a straight edge on my 2X Beast and the lip is straight as it gets and if anything a little convex.I also have a 2X in the original mold

the original pro line beast and the 2nd run beast are nothing alike. the rim is a little convex.

The original pro line beast was more stable/overstable than the the champ beasts.

if I remmeber corrently I read on here a long time ago that that the 1x BS beasts were a tweaked mold(slightly) from the pro beast and early champ beast.

So if that is true, then this is the third variation of the disc.

Thanks Dave for making the Best , Original Golf Disc's on the Planet !!!!!!

I hope other's see that , creating a fundraiser disc , help's put money back into the Sport and for the clubs that work with you guy's , not just in the Manufactures hands !!!!!

Your Original and Innovative Ideas are , infact copied , but I'd rather drive a Ferrari over a Renault , any Day !!!!!!! :eek:

Thanks again ,

Innova Disc's Roc.............

Donny Olow :D

Thanks Dave for making the Best , Original Golf Disc's on the Planet !!!!!!

I hope other's see that , creating a fundraiser disc , help's put money back into the Sport and for the clubs that work with you guy's , not just in the Manufactures hands !!!!!

Your Original and Innovative Ideas are , infact copied , but I'd rather drive a Ferrari over a Renault , any Day !!!!!!!

Thanks again ,

Innova Disc's Roc.............

Donny Olow



HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.....are you sponsored by them or something? I cant come up with another reason why someone could be that biased. WOW

Thanks Dave for making the Best , Original Golf Disc's on the Planet !!!!!!

I hope other's see that , creating a fundraiser disc , help's put money back into the Sport and for the clubs that work with you guy's , not just in the Manufactures hands !!!!!

Your Original and Innovative Ideas are , infact copied , but I'd rather drive a Ferrari over a Renault , any Day !!!!!!!

Thanks again ,

Innova Disc's Roc.............

Donny Olow



HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.....are you sponsored by them or something? I cant come up with another reason why someone could be that biased. WOW



maybe it is because Innova was founded by the disc golfer who brought us beveled edged discs, and who to this day continues to design the best discs available and to focus on making disc golf grow and prosper. not only that but Dave fields our questions on a daily basis, regardless of how trivial or redundant the questions become ... :p

with the Orc, Starfire, Sidewinder, Coyote, and Wraith adding onto an already stellar line-up of plastic what's not to love about Innova? :confused:

The other companys are just as good. They also answer questions in this forum. I throw whatever does the job the best.......which means i have a pretty diverse bag. Yes, maybe 10 years ago they were the best and only company making golf discs but now the others can compete. This just makes the discs that are coming out better because of the level of competition. "Whats not to love about innova?" The fact that half their discs are CFR's... but then again discraft or gateway makes the same thing for regular price, so ill go for that. Though i don't think ill ever find a replacement for the teebird, aviar, and eagle.

The number 2 disc manufacturer does not have disc golf as the central focus of its business. It sells a lot more Ultimate plastic. Innova has constantly done all it can to promote disc golf. That is why you have a CFR program. The money CFRs generate goes to TD's and disc golfers attending PDGA events. If you don't want to help support the growth of disc golf through buying CFR's, or if like me you often find CFRs hard to afford, there are many <font color="blue"> Innova </font> options which are available to you. (i only have one cfr disc in my bag and that was a recent addition) Other companies make decent plastic -- yes. Much of it though is cloned Innova innovation. And when you look at how much of disc golf today is the result of the fine folks at Innova -- and you want to support the company that supports disc golf -- Innova is the easy choice. It doesn't hurt that they make the best plastic available. :D

I'm not saying I want to see Discraft or Gateway sell no plastic. Both of those companies do support our sport and that's great. But Innova made disc golf.

Yeah, i play disc golf for the fun of it. I buy the discs that i think will help my game improve.......i won't limit myself to one company. Since when does making other products make the company not good for disc golf. All businesses are for the profit, I guess Innova sees it a little more long-term than others. Get the sport huge, claim that theyre the best, and thats all there is to it......mucho dineros for innova. I really dont care about either companys profit margin, i just throw the discs that I like.

Oh, and I throw a Z wasp so that i can have a Roc that will last forever and not have to pay out the [I'm a potty-mouth!] for it.

then you have a Clone that is a z wasp not a ROC /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif :eek: :p

plus i just looked at Ebay and the least a Z wasp was 12.99 not incl. shipping, up to 19.99 not incl. shipping

So really i guess u could compare the price diff. between the 2 Disc's sorta like comparing a Honda Accord to a Kia Spectra??????? :p

The price's are fairly close.
IMHO i would rather spend a couple of dollars more to Support the sport and to THROW an Original. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif :cool: :p

ps
those were for buy it now price's not auction price's. I did go back and find a couple that were starting at like 9.00. So more power to ya. :D/msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Yeah, i play disc golf for the fun of it. I buy the discs that i think will help my game improve.......i won't limit myself to one company. Since when does making other products make the company not good for disc golf. All businesses are for the profit, I guess Innova sees it a little more long-term than others. Get the sport huge, claim that theyre the best, and thats all there is to it......mucho dineros for innova. I really dont care about either companys profit margin, i just throw the discs that I like.




Your a [I'm a potty-mouth!] [I'm a potty-mouth!]. You come on the Innova thread and talk [I'm a potty-mouth!] about thier products and whine about prices. Your only in it for fun, fine, then obviously you dont need a CFR disc or understand the point of them and why they are 25$. CFRs are made and sold to benefit tournaments, clubs, and or other charitable causes. It would be different if thier standard Champion releases were 25$ or if the quality of disc was DX like, but they arent so crawl back to recreational land and shut the hell up.

Oh, and I throw a Z wasp so that i can have a Roc that will last forever and not have to pay out the [I'm a potty-mouth!] for it.




Why not save the money you spend on copies and actually pay for a PDGA membership? Or will you just continue taking advantage of this message board to insult someone that devotes a great deal of time to answer questions on all levels of this sport ? Your the biggest [I'm a potty-mouth!] Ive ever encountered on this board. I havent seen you post for awhile and hoped you had died like your previous forum.

I am a member, thanks for asking.

and i dont believe i insulted anyone, just stated that i buy discs form different manufactures. "i thought this was america" "what? this isn't america? I dont have free speech?"

I didn't see it in the thread so I'll ask far how a Pro Firebird-L compares to a Champion Firebird. I thought I just had a FB but now I see I've been throwing an FL. So now I got a Champion FB but haven't had a chance to fly it yet.

Thanks,
Bill

I haven't thrown a Pro Firebird(they are only FL) Yet, but from watching other's throw them they seem to be nothing like a regular FB or FX for that matter...
They seem to float longer and i've seen them turn over.. They definately arne't a hyzerbomb disc like the Champion Firebird of the CE FX's, but I would have to stay they are most stable than most newer Pro Line Discs..

That's just my 2cents... i've never thrown one so i can't comment from personal experience.

-Scott Lewis

p.s. I just added a CE FL to my bag and it is a friggen Hyzer Bomb.. The flatest and most stable disc i've ever had and more stable then my Monsters used to be.

The Pro FL is nothing like a Champ firebird... I've thrown a 166g Champ firebird, and it is still cuts hard at the end of it's flight, where as the FL if thrown hard will flip over even if thrown with a bit of hyzer.

they're more like a fast teebird for me (less glide though)

I liken them more to the KC Firebirds of old. The 10x before the hybrid plastic. They are more overstable than the 9x version,though.

Hi Dave,
What is the optimal height for the wraith to be thrown at?

Thanks for your time

Jeremiah, the Wraith, likes low rather than high. Five to ten feet. However, if you have a good nose down throw , you can throw a little higher. The nose angle with respect to ground (and speed) will determine how long the Wraith will travel straight before fading out. This is true of all discs, but is more noticeable for long range drivers.

Dave-What type of throw (in a field, in no wind) gets you the biggest D with the Wraith? Big Hyzer, Sky Annie, S-curve, Straight, Hyzerflip?

Dave, I have only thrown the Wraith a few times so far (172g), and i was impressed by how fast it flies. I drove into a moderate headwind, and the disc popped up and down a little (sort of like when a MTA throw takes the elevator but it didn't keep rising) about 2/3rds of the way out. Is that just wind effect or might it be something i am doing with my wrist or technique that causes it? I was impressed with the distance too...

Thanks Dave for making the Best , Original Golf Disc's on the Planet !!!!!!

I hope other's see that , creating a fundraiser disc , help's put money back into the Sport and for the clubs that work with you guy's , not just in the Manufactures hands !!!!!

Your Original and Innovative Ideas are , infact copied , but I'd rather drive a Ferrari over a Renault , any Day !!!!!!! :eek:

Thanks again ,

Innova Disc's Roc.............

Donny Olow :D


Well put Donny, and I agree 100%. People that dont understand where we are coming from just dont get it. 100 % Innova, always have been, always will be. These other guys will get a clue someday.

robj, the up and down probably wasn't you. If it was you, it would most likely be in one direction (up). Micro drafts do that and if you are throwing with a swirling wind.

Hi Dave, Bobby B. here. I have been throwing the Pro Wraith lately and can't say enough good stuf about it. The Wraith is going to change alot of peoples games. i threw it on a 1100 foot hole for the tee shot and second shot and was left a 100 foot eagle putt. My question is how are yours holding up after throwing for awhile now ? The plastic on the two I have seems to be more durable than say the Pro Orc plastic. Is the plastic the same or is there a difference with the plastic on the Wraith ?

Rendroc, sorry I missed your post earlier. The hyzer is the weakest throw for distance with a Wraith. The Wraith would have to be pretty beat or you would have to be a very big arm to get it to hyzer flip in no wind. S turn starting with anhyzer will work well. I haven't tried sky anhyzer, but if you could get the nose down, it might work too.

Bobby, the plastic is different from the first run Pro Orc. It is the same as the Pro Starfire. The plastic will wear over time, but will take a little longer than on the Pro Starfire because of the way the disc is built.

Dave it seems the pro plastic (while better than the original thet the Tee birds came) in beats in pretty quickly. Are you experiementing on different ratios of champion plastic and the opaque stuff that are blended together... Would that be sacrificing too much grippyness? Good job on the Wraith can't wait to get one in champ plastic ..

thanks in advance

ce

Dave,

Which disc came out first, the Rhyno or Aviar?

bandsagger, yes, that is exactly what we are doing; blending pro and candy. It did sacrifice some grip, but the additional toughness made it worth it IMO. The Pro plastic has two virtues; grip and glide. Additionally, many people do like the fact that it wears in. Power players don't like this, but they should be using candy instead which can take the extra torque and abuse that power players put on discs. Up to a certain extent, Pro and Candy can be repaired. Burrs and be sanded smooth and many rim warps can be bent back into shape if you know how, and the disc is in good shape otherwise. I don't think we are going to be able to do much better in the Pro plastic. However, we are experimenting with a special blend type plastic that may be what many disc golfers are looking for. In any case, it will be an alternative to regular candy with better grip, and the same candy durability. The Am Worlds will have a Special Blend Candy Orc fundraiser. This should be priced somewhere between $17.00 and $20.00, I believe. I have been testing a special blend candy Wraith, and so far, it is exactly what we want. Time will tell about the durability. In flight it seems to be between Pro and Champion.

atx, the Aviar came out in 1984, long before the Rhyno.

Dave ... so have you pulled any discs out of your bag, and replaced them with the Wraith? And did you replace with pro or candy?
When you listed the discs you carry in your bag ... I was wondering what you use for short-mid hyser [sidearm or bh] shots (I carry a gator)? And what disc do you use for thumbers/tomahawks?
I've been trying a lot of the same disc you use, and have been really happy with the selection. Just wondering about a couple of shots that seem to work better with the Gator, or for thumbers/tomahawk, a Firebird. Or do you just add some discs when you know you will need them? :D

And ... The Viking rocks!

atx, the Aviar came out in 1984, long before the Rhyno.



thanks for the answer Dave, just out of curiousity, around what year did the Rhyno come out?

atx, the Aviar came out in 1984, long before the Rhyno.



thanks for the answer Dave, just out of curiousity, around what year did the Rhyno come out?

1998.

It's not listed on the Jan 1998 (http://web.archive.org/web/19980114182915/www.innovadiscs.com/innova.golf.discs.html) version of the website, but is listed on the Jan 1999 (http://web.archive.org/web/20050908195649/http://www.innovadiscs.com/discs.html) version.

The Rhyno was approved by the PDGA on 11-9-98. That information is located here: PDGA Approved Discs &amp; Targets (http://www.pdga.com/documents/tech_standards/PDGA_approved_discs_and_targets.pdf)

boneman, I have taken two Starfires and one Coyote (still have one) out for now and replaced them with 2 Pro and 1 Champ Wraith. I plan on keeping the Pro Starfire for more turn with distance. I usually use my JK Aviar for short to mid hyzer up to 280, but in extreme conditions I will carry a Gator or Rhyno. For overheads I will use various discs, but until lately, I have used a Firebird. I have tried the Champ Wraith, it is very fast, but also seems to turn very fast, so it would have to be used situationally if at all. I have also used my Viking and Ch. Starfire L. I am planning on one overhead with a Ch. Wraith for the approach shot on Hole 4 at the USDGC. The quick turn is an asset there.

HI Dave,

Any thoughts about running TLs in the special blend plastic? I think you'd have an instant classic right there. I need something to replace my Glo TLs once the snow starts to fall :(

Also, when/where will the SB Orcs be available? You mentioned Am Worlds, but I believe that has already passed... /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Thanks,
Ken

PS I recently gave the Viking a whirl and was *very* impressed... Seems like you can really lean on it and it still holds the line; yet its not silly overstable. Nice disc, Dave!

2006 Am Worlds

Kenja, I think it's a good idea to run Special Blend TLs. Not sure which channel of distribution they would go in at this time. The SB Orcs should be available fairly soon. They are presently in queue for hotstamping. The 2006 Am Worlds in Oklahoma, Zonedriven in the East, and Discgolfvalues will have them within two weeks I believe.

Dave, any idea when, and where the first CFR Wraiths will be available to purchase?

Boneman, the CFR Wraiths will be available shortly also. They are also in queue for hotstamping.

Dave, I have a question about the older DX as opposed to the newer DX....

Is there any way the older DX plastic made discs more stable. For instance, I have ALOT of older DX Rocs and threw a NEW one yesterday and it was VERY stable, as most of my older Rocs are. Now, I also have a Ring of Rocs stamped DX Roc and it is NOWHERE near as stable new compared to the older DX. They are both Ranchos so they are the same mold... Thanks in advance.

Also, if the plastic is different, why the change?

It probably is a change in the plastic but when they were made can create differences for example the same mold made in summer will be a little different then a run made in the winter due to the temperature.

At a tourn. yesterday they had DX plastic in the player's packs....so I picked up a beast, and realized how domey it was, so I put it back for one that was a lot flatter. I thought about it after all the beasts were picked up, would these domey ones have been the 2x mold, or was it just the color, or custom stamp??

Ill4mation, it is probably a molding variation as none of the DX plastic we have used in the last few years makes the Rocs less stable per se.

The domeyness was probably not caused by color or stamp. Most likely it would be the particular plastic we were using for a while that made all DX discs domier or it was just a normal molding variation.

At a tourn. yesterday they had DX plastic in the player's packs....so I picked up a beast, and realized how domey it was, so I put it back for one that was a lot flatter. I thought about it after all the beasts were picked up, would these domey ones have been the 2x mold, or was it just the color, or custom stamp??






You should have kept that Beast. Those stiff poppy topped Beasts are where the moneys at. I still havent broke one in yet totally, but it will out distance all my other plastic when its broken in. They are gross.

There is a recent run of Rocs that are 'poppy-top' Rocs -- They are very stiff and when you push down on the dome with your thumbs they make a heartbeat sound. Very nice flyers!

I'd have to disagree with the poster above. I really don't like the new 'pop top' rocs at all. I find their flight to be less consistent than the flater/harder DX Rocs. Are all the DX rocs going to be 'pop top' now Dave??? I love the DX glo Rocs but found only 'pop tops' in those at a tourney this weekend. First time I had seen that in the glo plastic.

xcandy, no we stopped using that plastic as it was difficult to mold.

Hey Dave - any word if you guys will add a "favorite holes" to your players profiles on the website?

Excellent. Thanks Dave!

flyinhigh, I think it's a good idea, but when I suggested it to the guy that has to get the info, he thought it was going to be a struggle to get it from the team. We will get it eventually. One of my personal faves, is #5 at Winthrop gold. The lake hole.

?
are the inncolor discs legal for tourny play?

1ab

Hi Dave. I heard the CFR Wraith's are going to be about $10.00 cheaper than normal CFR discs. Is this true ? Either way, I cant wait to get my hands on a couple. Even at $25.00, it will be well worth every penny, after all that plastic lasts forever anyway. Great job on the Wraith Dave, and all the other Innova Discs ever produced.

Yes, INNColor discs are legal for play.

Bob, yes the CFR Wraith will be $15.99

Dave i have Tee Bird from 04 World Doubles in San Saba, feels like pro plastic but im not sure? Thanks for the help in advance.

Hello Dave,
Will these CFR Wraiths be readily available? Mass distribution?

Thanks

Erron, sorry, I don't know a thing about those TeeBirds. You might try asking John Houck.

Jeremiah, they will be available through most regular distribution channels if they choose to carry them.

Dave, out of curiosity, why not just run almost all your discs in Special Blend plastic and allow the TDs to pick the ones they want in advance? Are these going to be full colors? Thanks.

I love the special blend usdgc rocs and would love to see more discs run with that type of plastic (special blend classic roc would be great). Pleast tell me there will be more special blend rocs sometime (both the plastic and the mold were great), I only have three and these are getting expensive. Also, would love to throw SB wraiths, orcs, and sidewinders.

Your wish has been granted for the Orc (http://www.twistedflyer.com/proshop/index.php?cPath=37&amp;osCsid=75c2d9eae58f7ba0b9fb15fd b7fa5b0c) .