chris, no plans right now, but possible in limited runs in the future. Time would have to permit.

slo, there are six different platforms for regular golf discs. The Condor/Zephyr/Lynx would be another. The Scorpion/Barracuda is another. Polecat, Birdie, Piranha is another.

Hey Dave,
I had 2 Glo Aviars that were super stiff. They had a star stamp on them and just said "Aviar", not "Aviar Putter" like all that I've seen lately. The "Aviar-Putter discs are not quite as stiff. I aced with one and threw the other in a river..ouch. These things were great, they held up to the Oklahoma wind almost as good as any of my mid-rangers. Have they been dis-continued or is there somewhere I can get some more of these? Thanks.

Cambagger, I would check with Innova East or Zonedriven. It might have been a variation of small bead putter or stiffy (Classic).

Thanks Dave.

Hey Dave,
A buddy of mine mentioned something about a new midrange, called the coyote, being produced. He said he'd heard that it was supposed to be a touch understable compared to the roc and that these were supposed to come in the players' packs at the Des Moines NT tournament here in like 2 weeks. Could you shine some light on this disc?

derek, that sounds about right. The Coyote is a 180 size midrange that has a little high speed turn and less low speed fade than a Roc or Shark. It's like a beat Roc with less fade. It's only made in candy at this time.

Sounds like a beat 2002 CE ROC. When can I order some ?

thanks Dave

gnduke, I never seem to guess this right. We have been making them for about 2 weeks, but there is the lag for shipping and stamping that always seems to take longer than I think. It should be one week, but that probably means three.

derek, that sounds about right. The Coyote is a 180 size midrange that has a little high speed turn and less low speed fade than a Roc or Shark. It's like a beat Roc with less fade. It's only made in candy at this time.



Sounds like a cobra with less fade maybe?

Dave said "Stiffy"...

Sweet. Im paid for Des Moines.

JoeT, I was thinking that myself flightwise, but it has more of the feel in the hand of a Roc or Shark.

felix,

Hi Dave,
Has the Hydra mold been tweaked recently? I picked up a replacement yesterday. Could be my imagination, but the bottom of the rim feels more rounded than I remember.




I found out that a newer version has been shipped. It has been tweaked, but not in the way that you described, or that I replied to. The nose is a little thicker at the top.

The Coyote is a 180 size midrange that has a little high speed turn and less low speed fade than a Roc or Shark. It's like a beat Roc with less fade. It's only made in candy at this time.



Dave, i am so happy to hear about this i could howl (like a Coyote) :D

Dave, I was wondering if you have ever tried to run golf weight minis in a driver mold?

Dave, I was wondering if you have ever tried to run golf weight minis in a driver mold?


There could be nothing other than a mini-Viper. :)

Rocco, no. We don't have a driver mini. We have considered it. Maybe in the future.

Re the Coyote:

What do you mean by a "180 size midrange"?

How would you compare it to a 178 SB Roc?

Thanks.

Sharky, we refer to different size discs by their maximum allowable pdga weight. Aviars are 175 gm size and Rocs are 180 gm size. Condors, Zephys, Lynx, and Jaguar are 200 gm size. Most of our discs are either 175 gm max and 180 gm max.

Hey Dave , I may have a name for a disc.

Called the : " Humm'n Bird". After the Humming Bird.

It would be a small but quick disc. Hotstamp of a Humming Bird , Flying by at lightning speed.

And of course , dyed , to match the actual colors of Humming Birds. That could come later.

Just a thought !!!!

:D
Donny Olow

Dave, a couple of questions here and perhaps some of the other members could point me in the right direction. I would really like to see a VERY overstable mid-range disc from Innova. It seems that Innova does not have a comporable disc to Discraft's Drone currently.

I must say I have not tried throwing all of Innova's plastic, but am still searching for a mid-range disc that I can forehand reliably. For longer forehand shots I REALLY enjoy the Monster for it's super overstable characteristics, but it doesn't fit the bill for short forehand shots. Am I describing any current Innova mid-range discs? I've tried the Shark, Roc, Gator, none of them are as overstable as the Drone. Thanks!

The Drone is very overstable but the Gator is very similiar. Have you tried the Gator in the Champion plastic?

PT Woods
# 20431

No I think the one I have is DX. The gator forehands well?

the Champ Gator is much more overstable (and easier to throw) than a drone. the drone will flip on me, but that overstable pig the champ gator, wont!

How about the Whippet?

A Pro Whippet in the new Pro plastic ?

Hey Cambagger - Sorry, but the glow Aviars have been out of stock for a while. You may want to check with your local Innova dealer, John Whinery, for other items.

Take care,
Harold Duvall

felix,

Hi Dave,
Has the Hydra mold been tweaked recently? I picked up a replacement yesterday. Could be my imagination, but the bottom of the rim feels more rounded than I remember.




I found out that a newer version has been shipped. It has been tweaked, but not in the way that you described, or that I replied to. The nose is a little thicker at the top.

Thanks for the info, Dave. Now I'm wondering whether I got a molding variant of the original mold, a tweaked version, or a molding variant of the tweaked version. :D

The nose is thicker: very similar in height and shape to the Bulldog's nose, but the concavity of the lower rim is less pronounced than on the Hydra it's replacing: almost like that of a Panther. Guess I'll have to pick up a tweaked version to compare it to to be sure. (Like I really need another excuse to feed my plastic addiction! :))

Public Service Announcement:

GET YOUR HANDS ON THE CFR's SL's!!!!!!!

If I'm not mistaken its a Starfire-Leopard mix and they are super sweet. They fly long and straight with that Champion Starfire stable finish. The SL's are trying to push my Champ ORCS out of my bag. GET THESE DRIVERS! THEY ROCK!

oh yeah, a leopard mix!! :D

i'm hopin you were kidding there nina...

I've tried the Shark, Roc, Gator, none of them are as overstable as the Drone. Thanks!



*Cough*... Demon (http://www.gdstour.com/store/Qstore.cgi?CMD=011&PROD=1073749195)

Donnie, I have entertained that name before, but no one else here liked it.

dg4life, you might want to try the Whippet-X. I

Donnie, I have entertained that name before, but no one else here liked it.



Who cares? You're Dave Dunipace Damnit :D!

Nina,
(IF I REMEMBER CORRECTLY)
THe "L" in "SL" doesn't exactly Mean Leapord. Although the lip will feel similar like in the case of the Teebird-L which has a much smoother lip without a curve it doesn't mean it's a leapord mix.. THe leapord lip is actually a lot different than a Teebird-l lip and an EL lip as well as probably a SL lip.

although they seem similar, Innova likes to consider the "L" to mean "less overstable" and "Longer".
It's basically a less curved lip that produces the less overstability.

hope that helped.

-Scott Lewis
(p.s. if i remembered what i read correctly)

dg4life, you might want to try the Whippet-X. I




Its not " Ask Dave D." for nothing. Listen up.

Dave does innova make anything comparable to the z-xtreme? Champion Monster is the closest ive found.

I think the CFR Viper or Champ Whippet would be your best bet.

the Champ Gator is much more overstable (and easier to throw) than a drone. the drone will flip on me, but that overstable pig the champ gator, wont!



I would like to know how this guy is flipping over a Drone? Yes, very comparable in stability, the Drone is faster like the Whippet X. For me, I could release the drone with a strong anhyzer and it would come out of it, even at full speed.

QUESTION FOR DAVE

I recently saw a few Champion Gators in our local retailers warehouse with the "normal" Innova Stamp. Does this mean the Champ Gator is a normal production disc now? That would be sweet, then I would not be afraid to lose my 1st run.

Hi Dave,
I have noticed the new DX rocs have that pop-top quality that the disc pops back when you hold it with two hands and push the top down with your thumbs. The first SE Rocs also did that. We call it a "heartbeat". What do you call it?
Thanks,
Axis

erron, I can't answer as I have never thrown a Z extreme.

Parkntwoputt, no, the Champion Gator will be available on a limited basis, but not in the regular line. Probably will be available through ZoneDriven or Discgolfvalues rather than through us next year.

axis, we call it pooka pooka. :o

Nina,
(IF I REMEMBER CORRECTLY)
THe "L" in "SL" doesn't exactly Mean Leapord. Although the lip will feel similar like in the case of the Teebird-L which has a much smoother lip without a curve it doesn't mean it's a leapord mix.. THe leapord lip is actually a lot different than a Teebird-l lip and an EL lip as well as probably a SL lip.

although they seem similar, Innova likes to consider the "L" to mean "less overstable" and "Longer".
It's basically a less curved lip that produces the less overstability.

hope that helped.

-Scott Lewis
(p.s. if i remembered what i read correctly)



I really don't know, and I haven't asked many questions about the L....But I know they Flippin ROCK!!!!!

Nina, Scott is correct.

Oh well............. no Humm'n Bird then.

I'll try and think of some more possible names !!!!!

Thanks again !!!!! :D

on the topic of L's...most, if not all of the new proline drivers are L- versions...correct? (sorry if this has been answered, looked but couldnt find)

denoganizer, yes most of the driver Pros are L versions.

everyone is always asking if your going to be running a certain disc in the future. but i never see anyone ask what is actually going to be run.

seems like that would be a little bit better information.

so what does the summer schedule look like dave?

: ) :

Friar, it's quite busy. We are running three kinds of Valks, Firebirds, TeeBirds, Orcs, Beasts, Starfires, etc. We also need to run a lot of Aviars, Rocs, Sharks. Some discs take a lot of time like Sidewinders as they are candy and they are popular. We are introducing two or three new discs which take a long time as we start from scratch each time. The Coyote, for instance will be in production in candy for a month. Other discs in the rotation right now are: Banshees, Cheetahs, Birdies, Dragons, Rynos, Eagles, Leopards, and any tests or other new discs.

Dave,
Are there any Teebirds being run in Champion plastic that are of the "CA" Mold and not the "CAL" mold? THe 11x Teebirds are getting a little expensive to buy and i love that mold(or maybe just the plastic at the time).

-Scott Lewis
P.s. You have any 11x teebirds lying around at the warehouse? :) PM me if so :).

Scott, the CA and CAL molds are identical. That doesn't mean runs would be identical. That is up to lots of different factors.

dave is the champion panther run anymore since i don't hear many people talk about throwing it. I love that disc and need to buy some up if you guys aren't gonna make it anymore. very versatile disc for getting out of trouble and dead on straight long approaches. :D

I heard juliana is throwing them now.. it's on her info page instead of the Spider so my guess is that they are still gonna be making them..

Dave.. I guess it's just the type of plastic int he 11x that i like. becuase they feel different than all other teebirds i've thrown.. they just seem more stable and feel better in the hand.

-Scott Lewis

Lee, no problem, we are phasing out the DX version, but we are keeping the Champion version.

Dave,

Are you going to continue making 150-class to 155g Champion Vikings? If so, when? They fly so well they keep flying away....having trouble finding replacements.

Will

Hey Slayerbill, nice to hear from you. Yes, we will continue to make 150 class and other lower (155 to 164 gm) weights. Not sure when it is sceduled to run next. I am going to La Mirada tomorrow if you care to visit.

I have a CFR glo TL from the 2004 beaver state fling that is an interesting yellow color. Its the only glo disc Ive seen that isnt white. Are there many other glo discs like this, or is this one just a freak. Thanks for any info.

Scott, the CA and CAL molds are identical. That doesn't mean runs would be identical. That is up to lots of different factors.


I assume you're running the CAL. mold right now. Any plans for the CA. mold this year?

thanks dave are the panthers selling? maybe they are more popular in other areas of the country. but anyhow thanks for keeping it around. I only throw the champ so dx going bye bye is fine by me. :D

In the 90's Innova had some Blue Glow discs - pretty cool!

Also, there were the rare pink glo and purple glo. I've got a few from Morely Field and DTW.

disctracted, it's probably a freak althought the glow pigment does have a greenish yellow tint.

rendroc, we would run either and not discriminate.

Lee, I think the Champion Panthers are an unknown for most people. We don't sell that many, but I think it is a good disc that needs a longer time to develop a market.

I agree dave and the few people I have exposed to this disc throw it on a regular basis now. Ever think of trying to advertise it with maybe a glow cfr panther. it just feels so good in the hand and the release is always smooth feeling

Hey Dave....do you guys offer an type of warranty on your disc golf bags? I was told by someone else that they had the same problem (broken strap points, broken zipper, and some tearing where its stitched up) that you guys fixed or repaired or did something for them. I got this bag for christmas and haven't been able to use it since march due to this. I have been borrowing a friends gateway bag but its not near as large as the bag that i have from you. Any help would be appreciated.

good question... my tour bag is ripping wear the water bottle holder is sew on. any info dave would be appreciated

discmandan420
From the other Dave Thread
Dear Steve -

The problems with the tour bag have been sporadic. We have dealt with folks individually on a facts-and-circumstances basis. If the bag provided reasonable value, then a replacement would not be warranted. On the other hand, if a Tour bag fails quickly, like Jaymo�s apparently did, we are glad to work on an equitable solution. If you would kindly e-mail me at [email protected], I would be glad to review the facts and circumstances regarding your Tour Bag.

Take care.
Harold

We do offer a warranty of sorts. I don't know what it is off hand, but if your new bag is having a problem, you can return it for replacement. It should be done through your dealer. I believe there was some stitching problems with some of the earlier run tour bags.

Hey Dave (or others in the know): I just picked up what lookes like a night shift sidewinder secondhand. The exact same plastic as my 05 champ sb red roc. Whats up?

I purchased a tour bag last year during the early summer. I also bought dual shock sraps to go with. The loops where the biners are supposed to clip in broke within 5 days. Also the strap that holds the clip on the mesh pouch on the outside of the bag came off as well within a week.

I ought this bag off of one our local dealers (Dave O'Shea), and he just had the same problem with his bag (brand new as well). He sent them both back to innova and they replaced them for us.

Since then, Innova has made numerous revisions to it's tour bag and now is a much higher quality.

Sorry Dave, I think I'm the one who started this whole thing...

After a bunch of emails and some digital pictures. Sam Ferrans was able to send me a new 2005 Tour Bag.

The new Tour Bags have many positive changes. Including, but not limited to, actual plastic clips on the back designed for Back Pack straps; Highly re-enforced clips on the top for the strap; 2 thermal water bottle holders etc... the new bags are pretty awesome!!! and are a great advacement over the old ones.

thanks guys :cool:

Hoppes, probably someone used the opaque colorant. If it is red, it might be the ones we did for Christmas discs.

Hey Dave, I love the sidewinder's flight characteristics, but I hate champion plastic for drivers. Will the SW ever be produced in the SWEET pro plastic?

Hey Dave, I love the sidewinder's flight characteristics, but I hate champion plastic for drivers. Will the SW ever be produced in the SWEET pro plastic?


I would like to see this produced in other plastics also, although my vote is in DX. I haven't had much luck with the pro plastic, one tree and its totally different (granted, it was right when the Teebird-L came out and I should probably give that plastic another chance). My guess is, given the sidewinders already understable flight, either the pro or dx woudl be too understable even brand new.

not neccesarily. a dx beast is definitely more overstable than champion and IMO a dx tbird is the same.

not neccesarily. a dx beast is definitely more overstable than champion and IMO a dx tbird is the same.



Id agree with that, more with the DX Beast.

Hi Dave. Do you know if the Orion is slated to be run in Quantum plastic and if so when? Thank you Sir.

Mr_Zonker, we will definitely try the experiment. I think it will be good, but you never know until you do it.

Chase, no the Orion is not slated to be done in Quantum yet. We are considering it.

Hi Dave,
If I live another day without the new Coyote I'll just die. If a guy had a Coyote and a Roadrunner could he assume they were inspired by the same Warner Brothers cartoon? :)
Thanks,
Axis

Chase, no the Orion is not slated to be done in Quantum yet. We are considering it.



Please do give it some consideration. I think it would be a excellent seller. Ive spoken to alot of golfers in my town that are eagerly awaiting a Q version.

axis, the Roadrunner name has been on tap for a few years. Geoff and Johnny Lissaman have been wanting that name on a roller for at least five years. Finally made it. The coyote came to mind from the Roadrunner.

Let's put to rest before they start all rumours the Coyote is a decendant of the Wolf! ;) Mm-mm. Distinct animal. :cool:

Dohhhhhhhhh................

Poor Coyote .................... Doesn't the Roadrunner usually beat down the Coyote ?

The Coyote does have some tricks up his sleeve though !!!!! :D

http://www.geocities.com/meat_in_socal/Generic_Coyote_Web.jpg

Dave,
I was wondering if you could tell me the 9x KC Pro discs that were produced with this stamp (http://www-personal.umich.edu/~jdobber/9xkc_gazelle.JPG). So that would exclude the 9x discs with this stamp (http://community.webshots.com/scripts/editPhotos.fcgi?action=showMyPhoto&albumID=368920815&photoID=368921086&security=GMDclt)

So far I have the Roc, Aviar, Gazelle, Eagle, and Banshee. I know there are whippets out there. Any others?? Thanks

Hey Slo ............

For the Coyote , we could always put a ACME stamp on them !!!! :D

......sorry for hijacking the thread Dave, but QD can't you just see the Inncolor version - faux wood grain with ACME across the face..... :cool:

Exactly !!!!! With permission from Warner Brothers of course.
:D There is TONS of stuff that can be created !!!!!! :D

I need a disc called Tasmanian Devil , Tweety Bird , Sylvester , Foghorn Leghorn ...........etc.

You know what I mean. Hollywood and Studio Plastic !!!!!!
:cool:

Hey Dave, what are you throwing for max d these days?

acedeucelefty, I don't know how many of any model. If there are others, it would be on discs like TeeBirds, Vipers, and possibly Leopards and Ravens. Ravens would be the least likely.

I swore I had a nine-time Firebird that had what was to be the ten- time stamp. Am I just high?

Roc Steady, I was throwing the Pro Starfire, but I have switched to the new Champion Beast and the CFR Starfire L. These two discs don't carry quite as well as the Pro Starfire, but they are better into the wind. Plus, the Starfire L is pretty darn straight, regardless of which way I throw it.

I swore I had a nine-time Firebird...


Firebird could be a missing one. Cheetah definitely is missing from your list.

new Champion Beast



Maybe this has already been covered. But when you say "new" - do you mean it's been changed from previous molds?

I swore I had a nine-time Firebird...


Firebird could be a missing one. Cheetah definitely is missing from your list.


First KC Firebird was the newer stamp, not the old circle stamp.

First KC Firebird was the newer stamp, not the old circle stamp.


I had a circle-stamp KC Firefird that came out right before the first DX Valk made it's debut. The first run of those had what was called "wet plastic", and they were understable fast super-long-distance flyers. Nothing like a DX Firebird at all. I got my first 400+ foot birdie with a putt with that disc. The problem was that they were "one tree rollers".

But man they flew understable sweet.

Matt, yes. It is more L ish than before.

I swore I had a nine-time Firebird that had what was to be the ten- time stamp. Am I just high?



You're not that high. They gave away 9X Firebirds with the non-circle stamp in the player's packs at the 2000 Worlds. I think it's the only disc that Innova produced that says "Discraft" on it, as in "Discraft presents the 2000 Worlds". Pretty unique.

Matt, yes. It is more L ish than before.



How long have these been out? Can we identify these by comparing the lip to older Champion Beasts?

James, they haven't been out that long and it's not that easy to tell by looking. Probably easier to tell by feeling the nose, which feels beefier than the original.

I had a circle-stamp KC Firefird that came out right before the first DX Valk made it's debut. The first run of those had what was called "wet plastic", and they were understable fast super-long-distance flyers. Nothing like a DX Firebird at all. I got my first 400+ foot birdie with a putt with that disc. The problem was that they were "one tree rollers".

But man they flew understable sweet.



I remember those KC Firebirds, they were absolutely nothing like other Firebirds. They flew really far, indeed! But boy did they beat up quickly; I went through them like water.

I swore I had a nine-time Firebird that had what was to be the ten- time stamp. Am I just high?



You're not that high. They gave away 9X Firebirds with the non-circle stamp in the player's packs at the 2000 Worlds. I think it's the only disc that Innova produced that says "Discraft" on it, as in "Discraft presents the 2000 Worlds". Pretty unique.


Hold on. I coulda swore those KC Firebirds at PAW 2000 were circle-stamped with a second "Discraft Worlds" stamp inside the circle.

I thought the one I had had a Maceman stamp. It was one of my first discs, so around 2000?

Matt, yes. It is more L ish than before.



Sounds interesting. I've always thought the Beast was kind of flippy, but I haven't really thrown it in a few years.

How does the new version compair to older versions as far as the numbers go? less turn, more glide?

It's listed on innovadisc.com as:
http://www.innovadiscs.com/discs/ratings/beast.gif

Still accurate?

Matt, because we use whole numbers, they still might be accurate, but I am going to have to review them. I would say, they revised version has a little less high speed turn, a little more glide, and a little less fade. Same speed The fade number would be the most likely to change to a 2 from a 3.

Dave,

Why does Climo's signature appear on the Champion Eagle? As far as I know he doesn't throw Eagles. Does he have his name on 11 discs as the 11x W.C.?

Hawk, I don't know if Ken still throws Eagles. He does endorse them. I am not sure of all the discs he does endorse now, but it's not 11. The KC Roc and KC Aviar are two in the Pro Line. TeeBird and Eagle are two in the Champion Line.

These are the ones I know Kennys signature is on. Im talking this year and not in past years.

Aviars
Rocs
Firebirds
Teebirds
Eagles

I dont know of any others off the top of my head but there may be some.

gazelles and cheetahs and whippets, oh my!

Back in the day, those were THE drivers.

dave, i heard that the Pro Orc is being disconintued, is this true? and also why were beasts retooled, and how can we expect that to change their flight? thanks again

gazelles and cheetahs and whippets, oh my!

Back in the day, those were THE drivers.

And banshees.

gazelles and cheetahs and whippets, oh my!

Back in the day, those were THE drivers.

And banshees.



and Pegasus

: ) :

dave, i heard that the Pro Orc is being disconintued, is this true?



:eek: that's CRAZY talk! :mad:

:confused: say it ain't so Dave! :D

Dave
When you change the hotstamp design does it necessarily mean that the disc has been tweaked?
For example the dx leopard now has 'Fairway Driver" and a different leopard drawing than the older ones in my pro shop. Was the mold adjusted?

Great to see you again at the HOF Classic.
Thanks

Paul, yes we are planning on discontinuing the Pro Orc as the difference in flight between the new Pro Beast and the Pro Orc is minimal and the Beast takes a lot more abuse. The Beast was retooled to take more abuse and fly longer.

mmmm. pro beast! need one! must order!

i think a pro beast is the ticket. i don't like the rim on the orcs, even though they fly hella far. and the starfires are a touch stable, yet somewhat unpredictable in a head breeze.

fossil, no, sometimes it's just because we don't like the old one. I don't believe the Leopard has ever been tweaked.

Dave, have you or are you going to make any changes to the current pro line plastic. It has wonderful grip and some of the best glide in the driver molds of any plastic I have ever used. However the flight characteristics seem to change drasticly in such a short time. I don't have any problem with it's durability but my Orcs & Starfires became really understable in only a couple of weeks of use. For whatever reason my Pro Classic Rocs have aged nicely as you would expect. Previously you you stated the new Pro Beast will be more durable but is that because of the plastic or design? thanks

Flick_N_putt: I'm not dave, but from what i know of discs Drivers are always less durable than other discs in All plastics.. They have a much sharper lip and it will effect the disc characteristics quicker when it gets worn. THe newer wider-rimmed/lipped drivers will especially wear quicker.

hope that helped.

-Scott Lewis

Scott is correct, and that is why we are discontinuing the Pro Orc. The only change we might make to the Pro plastic would be to add durability without sacrificing grip. We like the flight characteristic as is.

Paul, yes we are planning on discontinuing the Pro Orc as the difference in flight between the new Pro Beast and the Pro Orc is minimal and the Beast takes a lot more abuse. The Beast was retooled to take more abuse and fly longer.



Dave,

This is awful news! The Pro Orc has added 30-50 ft. to my drives. It's a perfect disc. I think it's by far the best you've ever made. Some of us with weaker arms can't throw a beast nearly as far. I'd better stock up on Pro Orcs!

I'm with Lowe on this one. The Pro Orcs work very well for me although I'll admit my main course is manicured lawn and mostly relatively soft trees. I tried the original Proline Beast and didn't like it at all. I'll try to get my hands on a new Pro Beast (may be tough in low volume disc sale Idaho Falls) and hope it flys like Dave says.

Paul, yes we are planning on discontinuing the Pro Orc as the difference in flight between the new Pro Beast and the Pro Orc is minimal and the Beast takes a lot more abuse. The Beast was retooled to take more abuse and fly longer.



Dave,

This is awful news! The Pro Orc has added 30-50 ft. to my drives. It's a perfect disc. I think it's by far the best you've ever made. Some of us with weaker arms can't throw a beast nearly as far. I'd better stock up on Pro Orcs!



The Pro Orc is absolutely my favorite disc, even though I generally avoid anything but Champion plastic because my home course is highly wooded. The pro Starfire just doesn't have the predictable come back (fade) at the end that the Pro Orc gives me on distance drives. I've reached holes accurately that I used to think were unreachable because of the Pro Orc. (second, more durable run). There's no disc I would miss more, except maybe the JK Aviar-x. Hopefully the new Pro Beast will help fill the void, but I will miss being able to switch between the Champ Orc and the Pro Orc which feel so similar out of the hand -- except for the superior grip and glide of the Pro Orc... I am getting distance I once only dreamed of with my Pro Orcs, and can come close with the Champ Orcs, but will really miss the Pros...

I think you all are really missing the boat by not throwing the Pro SF This disk does what you tell it to a long ways down the fairway.

ce

well i prefer the pro-line starfire DISC. its much better then the other Starfire Disk. :D:D:D

but i digress..

i find the pro starfire to be very unpredictable. maybee its just me ( 95% chance of this). although im loving my new CFR Starfire.. its not as long. but much more predictable. and since its a diff mold. more overstable. i found once my Pro-Line Starfire had a bit of use. it started flipping over and not coming back. even on a hyzer release.

I LOVE CFR STARFIRES

You should try the CFR Starfire L, same mold as the Pro Starfire but in champ plastic so it will be a little more stable and will hold it's stabilty a lot longer. It should be quite a bit less stable than the regular Starfire mold.

I've found that the CFR-Starfire-L's have been MORE overstable (hard to flip up from hyzer) than either the 2nd run, which flies almost the same as a Champ Orc, or the Pro SF. I had been expecting a longer, faster TL but I'd have to say that its quite a bit more stable, around the same speed/stability as the new Pro Firebird FL. The glide is terrific; I can throw it flat and keep a tight s-curve out to around 400 ft. Overall, pricey, but a really really great disc -- Thanks Dave & Innova!

I just got a light CFR-SFL (163) in the new "Light" blend champion plastic -- an amazingly light weight considering the massive rim on the Starfire-L. I think its great that you guys have gotten this lighter mixture to hold a truer dome with pretty good "feel." Other than their durability & grip, I was never a big fan of the light "gummy bear" drivers' flight characteristics -- too flat & hard-fading.

Kenja, have you compared that light one to heavier ones? Does it flip alot? Have you tried it Dave? I love my 168 pro. And have a 170 and 175 CFR SL which are tight!

With stiffnes comes brittless. Have you guys been able to do any cold impact tests on the new plastic? If its blended (and blends well) with urethane products, prolly no worries.

Roc Steady, yes I have tried the Starfire SL and like it. I use it instead of the Orc for power hyzer shots and flex shots. I have not tested it much into the wind, but I will tomorrow. I have been using my reguluar CFR Starfire for that. We have done several cold weather tests with candy, if that is what you are referring to, and no problems. I don't know what "stiffness" you are referring to though.

Roc Steady, I think I understand your question now. I have not tried the lighter weight blend of the Starfire L on the golf course. I have tried in in the parking lot only. I will give it a shot this week if I can.

hey dave---just got an order of dx spiders in and the light ones [155-162] are pro plastic with the dx stamp. a little more domey than dx and everything. is this a light dx blend or are you now running pro spiders? they are very nice, and definately pro plastic like. thanks

steven, they are DX, I believe. They were probably made with the domey DX blend.

i'll take your word for it---but these feel EXACTLY like my pro plastic discs. same grip, flex, more domey etc. i likes 'em

Dave-

Kevin Babbit is one of the hottest golfer playing right now. Top 4 at KC and some kick arse golf in Des Moines. He has always been nothing but the ideal Innova representative when I have been around him. When is he going to become part of team Champion?

Smitty, I agree that Kevin is an excellent representative for us. Team Champion status is based on criteria we have laid out for the team. Kevin could probably tell you how close he is to moving up, but it is not easy. Multiple top finishes in A or NT are basically what it takes.

What about Ed Burde? Hes 1000 rated and is one of the biggest fan favorites anywhere, anytime. Talk about a excellent representation of Innova.

Ed is excellent as a player and person. I don't know about the other factors we take into account. It doesn't look as if he is touring much, I don't know if he plays with Innova discs predominately, and, there are other factors.

does Coda have a chance to move up to team champion anytime soon? This year?

Well this is pretty good to know Dave. I had always wondered about when players become sponsored. Because I know it would be hard for me to give up on a few of my discs, most companies have generally similar discs, but there are a few Innova and even a few Discraft discs that I cannot live with out right now. I wondered, because eventually I would like to become a sponsored pro, granted not the level of Kenny or Barry, I am trying to concentrate on a career after grad school, but reach the level of Dean Tannock and Joe Thacker (even though Joe is not sponsored, he should be, but he just tore his achilles tendon), I think I would be happy competiting at that level. So it is glad to know that you do not force your lower level sponsored players to throw away some of their favorites, even though I imagine it is discouraged to throw a competitors discs when you are sponsored. Thanks for that info.

Omegaputt.. doesn't that requre that he wins an A-tier or NT event?? i thougth that was what defined a team champion.

-Scott Lewis

Im not sure, that sounds right i guess.

check innova's team website and click on the champion star next to the champion players.. it should define it.

-Scott Lewis

Dave -- have you run the new batch of gremlins yet? I've been waiting patiently! Also -- had a comment about the coyote: I have been throwing the CFR Aero that came out in 02 for a while and love the predictable flight. The coyote seemed to be comparable, However, the coyote, even in max weight is flimsy. Can they be made more stiff? With as little stability as they have, a few tree whacks with this flimsy plastic will make it worthless. I'd love to see the Coyote in a firmer blend of plastic like the old school CE Aero.

Make with the ProLine Gremlins!

Thanks.
A.J.

Coda can move up real soon if he wins a couple of NTs. Otherwise he will have to work his way up like Kevin McCoy. Kevin has been poised to move up for a few weeks, but hasn't quite put himself over the top yet.

AJ, no, we haven't had time to run the Gremlin yet, and it will remain pushed back as long as we are behind on the regular stock stuff. Sorry. We have not settled on exactly how stiff we want the Coyote. That being said, the plastic itself is very comparable to the plastic of the Champion Aero. The structure is different such that the Aero would feel a little stiffer, even though the plastic isn't. From batch to batch, there are perceptible differences in the feel of the plastics, even though they are labled and rated identically from the manufacturer. I hope, that the plastic doesn't do what you fear it might. If it does, we will definitely have to change it.

There was a noticable difference in the CE Aeros and the Champion Aeros in stability, and I believe it to be due to the flimsy nature of the newer Champion Aeros. I don't throw the Champion Aeros because of their lack of stability, and their gumminess. I truly believe you will have a true flying disc with the Coyote if you port it over into a firmer blend of plastic. Thanks Dave for your quick response... I will continue to harass you about proline gremlins though, no offense.

AJ, no offense taken.

i'm with chase, ed burde is a good guy and would be an excellent addition to the team. i think ed throws mostly innova with the exception of maybe 1 or 2 discs. i just wanna see the Innova E-burd(e) :D :cool:

I don't think stiffer necessarily means more durable. look at the grand canyon and the colorado river. rock is stiffer; water more durable. Dave I am happy to hear the Coyotes are flexible. Don't gummy champion discs have good durability?

Cool ..............my Coyote flys great. Nice and straight.

If I throw with a bit of Hyzer , it holds !!!!

Long distance Turnover , no problem.

It is just stable. :D

Fun Disc to have Dave !!!!!!

Thanks !!!!!!! :D

robj, yes the plastic itself is durable, but the gummy stuff, in the past, tended to mold up less stable to begin with. That could easily give the perception that it is less durable. We have a new plastic that corrected that in lighter weights.

Hey Dave,

When is innova going to do another run of the coveted CE plastic? I've heard it will never be made again but I know innova has thought about it and how much revenue it could generate.

I've heard it will never be made again



It won't be made again because they ran out of the plastic. You answered your own question in the question.

Yea, don't feel bad. I asked the same question when I first started playing. Shame realy.

Now I will post another, why doesn't Innova offer a "trade in" program? Then when we beat up the old ce plastic to the point it is unusable they can set it aside, grind it up, and make small batches of "low run resurrected CE discs" like for the USDGC rocs. How cool would it be to have a USDGC roc in old school CE plastic, like the 2001? Is this plastic recyclable?

Chariots, we didn't exactly run out. We are using the identical plastic according to the manufacturer, but it does seem to have changed slightly from the original batch. One thing we noticed was that it wasn't quite as stiff. That turned out to be a good thing as we were informed by the PDGA, that the discs we were making at the time were borderline too stiff.

JoeT, the plastic is recyclable. However, it is most recyclable initially with unhotstamped bad original parts that havent been out in the sun and/or getting little dirt particles imbedded in the plastic. The UV tends to degrade the plastic over time. Also, it would take work to sort, and grind the plastic. Between this stuff and the freight to get it all back it would be more practical to recycle them some other way, like giving them to new players.

Ed is excellent as a player and person. I don't know about the other factors we take into account. It doesn't look as if he is touring much, I don't know if he plays with Innova discs predominately, and, there are other factors.




Since I started the lobby: Dave, I played with Ed last week and hes still all about throwing Innova. I think I got him on the Bulldog as well. He has been selective about touring because of the Tye Dye business. He took 2nd at Peoria { Heeron won in the final 9} and was the only player to hit 3 1000 rated rounds. Hes a friend and ambassador to the game. Not that you dont sponsor great reps, but the only Pro Ive met thats even close to Burde in the sense of personality and being a fan favorite without National titles is Schweb. Thanks for the chance to talk about a great guy! Everyone who doesnt, should know Ed.

It doesnt matter

If you throw enough R&D $ at it there is no doubt it could be made again.

Thanks though for trying to make my question look stupid.

I've heard it will never be made again



It won't be made again because they ran out of the plastic. You answered your own question in the question.

Actually, unless one or more of the ingredients are no longer available or the formula has been lost, Innova could make more.

Dave mentioned in an earlier post that a not insignificant consideration that prompted the switch actually, not so much a switch as a tweak to the plastic blend) from CE to ProLine/Champion is that the CE plastic blend was borderline too stiff to pass the flexibility test (see PDGA Technical Standards). In light of that, I would presume is that, short of a change in the flexibility standard, we won't be seeing runs of "true" CE any time in the near future.

Dave, has there been any thought to a collaboration effort between disc manufactures to produce a fundraising disc for worlds or something of that nature? Seems as it would be great to have all the manufactures working together with ideas and sharing cost of these ideas.

food for thought

Dave mentioned in an earlier post that a not insignificant consideration that prompted the switch actually, not so much a switch as a tweak to the plastic blend) from CE to ProLine/Champion is that the CE plastic blend was borderline too stiff to pass the flexibility test (see PDGA Technical Standards). In light of that, I would presume is that, short of a change in the flexibility standard, we won't be seeing runs of "true" CE any time in the near future.



correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't the PDGA flexibility test a safety issue and therefore it is highly unlikely they'll ever lower the bar? also, it seems like the post CE Champion line may have been much closer to CE plastic than we tend to think. the mystique of the CE hotstamp may be the secret :D

speaking of mystique, with the 01 Roc stamp resembling the old football stamp and the 02 Roc with the classic star stamp,How cool would it be to have the one of the stamps on the next batch of Rocs look just like the old CE stamp, just a thought

speaking of mystique, with the 01 Roc stamp resembling the old football stamp and the 02 Roc with the classic star stamp,How cool would it be to have the one of the stamps on the next batch of Rocs look just like the old CE stamp, just a thought


We still need the "looks like the inside of the football without the footbal around it" stamp and the bar stamp. Those were used on proto runs also. :)

What about Ed Burde? Hes 1000 rated and is one of the biggest fan favorites anywhere, anytime. Talk about a excellent representation of Innova.


I wouldn't 100% agree with this statement, but I am wondering where Ed is at these days... Is Innova considering picking him up? He and I used to frequent one of the same draw doubles minis, and he was my partner a couple of times. great golfer... "no comment" on his attitude towards newbies. I know he was part of DGI at one time, as that's where I first met him. Last time I talked to him, he was moving to Lake Tawakoni and was going to be building a course there... I never heard anything after that. Does Innova have anything to do with that project? Does anyone know what happened with that project?

baldguy, I don't know if Innova has anything to do with the Lake Tawakoni project. If we did, it would be through the East Coast.

Burde has been playing a lot of tournaments on the East Coast, mainly the Charlotte area. Maybe he's moved AGAIN!

I've known Burde for 12 years now, spectacular, quality guy......just moves too many times! :DBest wishes My_Burde!

correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't the PDGA flexibility test a safety issue and therefore it is highly unlikely they'll ever lower the bar?

Yes; so what does that tell you about the chances of seeing a rung of "true" CE discs again?

right, that was my point

speaking of mystique, with the 01 Roc stamp resembling the old football stamp and the 02 Roc with the classic star stamp,How cool would it be to have the one of the stamps on the next batch of Rocs look just like the old CE stamp, just a thought



That's a great idea, maybe innova should pick you up. :cool:

hey dave, are champ birdies possible, and when can we see some stiff champ avairs?
which state is the mecca of discgolf?

k

Hey dave.. I was wondering if you'd be able to explain something that you wrote on Innova's site a little more for me:

-Prepare your shot from the whip back. In other words, find how you want to position your body such that you have the most power pulling at the very end of the whip rather than the beginning.

I'm not sure what you mean by that? Does that mean standing more open/close, not turning your body away from the target too much.. Not quite sure what you mean and a good explanation would be great..

-Scott Lewis

p.s. can't wait for them Gremlins :)

JoeT:
Good thought, but I have yet to see CE plastic that has become
unusable.

One-armed-boxer, you can get Champion Birdies through Zone Driven or Discgolfvalues. We still have some Champion Aviars. We don't plan on running any stiff ones. Which state is the mecca of discgolf? Texas and Iowa could lay claim with all their courses.

Scott, the most important part of any throw, is when the disc is coming out of your grip. That is the point of most control and power. That point, essentially, is the throw. That point determines line, altitude, hyzer, anhyzer, nose up, and power. So, you need to make sure that you will be in the correct position regarding your foot, arm, wrist, fingers, hips etc. when you want the disc to rip. There is no point to anything else you do in your throw if it does not accommodate that point. If you go to that point first, even if it is in your imagination, you can make sure you are in the most powerful and accurate position when it counts.

Hey Dave, I have heard great reports on the new Starfire-L. I have yet to test one myself. My question to you though has to do with the star stamped ones. I saw a few people testing these with the star first run style stamps. I love collecting these star discs. I have searched all over and haven't seen any of these available for purchase. Is there a place I can go online or otherwise to get one of these for my collection or was this only for sponsored players?

Also, will all new discs come out limited with this stamp (maybe one on a Coyote? ) or is this random?

JoeT, those SLs were for the team members only. The Star stamp is for first runs, but it has been random whether it happens at all or not. Discgolfvalues and also zonedriven may have a smattering of star stamps in a month or so on random discs like Champion Birdies. If you are interested in the CFR SL other than the Star stamp, you can get those at selected tournament sites or discgolfvalues or any other site that carries CFR for tournaments.

hey Dave answer the question

Burde has been playing a lot of tournaments on the East Coast, mainly the Charlotte area. Maybe he's moved AGAIN!

I've known Burde for 12 years now, spectacular, quality guy......just moves too many times! :DBest wishes My_Burde!





Hes in Tenn. Has been for awhile.

Sorry Matchu, I thought it was just "food for thought". The answer is, yes. Further than that, it gets very political, and I don't wish to discuss that.

'tis a shame, seems everything is that way these days.

thanks for answering me I do appreciate your time.

My grieving process over the DISContinuation of the Pro Orc is going better than expected. I have several in my stash of the right color (light blue w/ dark blue swirls mixed in) and am beginning to find that my broken in Champion Orcs get me the same D. A little less grippy, but no big whoop.

Dave does the color variation of the Pro Orcs i like (second run) sound like the normal mix of pro plastic?

Also, is the secret to throwing Pro Starfires to throw them high and start them well left and give them room to work?

Robj, your Pro Orc sounds like a color transition from white to blue or vice versa. I don't think the Pro Starfire needs any more room than the Pro Orc to work. I didn't think either was particularly good into a wind as they would turn and make the line read difficult. Both get a lot of glide and are easy to throw in non wind situations. The big difference for me between the two was the low speed characteristic and the longevity. The Pro Starfires hold the turn longer and last longer. The Pro Orcs become flippier with age fairly quickly, but still come back harder if you don't lose it entirely. So, to answer you question: I think there are two ways to use the Pro Starfire's characteristic to a great advantage. Neither involves throwing into a wind. First, line drive hyzer flip works great. Second, medium high left with a little turn will go far as it will hold the nose down turn for a long ways. Right left crosswinds work well for the hyzer flip too, as it does for the Sidewinder.

Dave, I seem to notice a trend (I think) at least with your company and Gateway.

Are understable to straight discs the "new era" in disc technology? Have you "ran the gauntlet" of overstable discs and feel that there is enough overstable plastic out there and that players desire less stable discs. For example, all the new Proline discs are less stable then their counterparts, the Sidewinder, Coyote. Gateway has the Element (similar to a Roc) and a driver which the name elludes me.

Personally, I would like to see Innova make an overstable midrange in the 180 weight size. I love the Gator, but that is too overstable for the 350ft range like the Roc, and the gator is a smaller disc. However the Roc while it is a great disc is still pretty much a straight disc. I am talking about something you can just really crank on and not have it flip over. Or do you think that coming out with an overstable 180 size midrange would hinder sales of the Champion Rocs (the Champ Glo Rocs are a great driving midrange).

Just wondering your thoughts on this one.

IMO, if you want a more overstable mid-range than the Champion Gator or Champion Whippet, learn how to underthrow a Monster. And if not, you might want to try a Champion Glo Roc from '04. { Heroic Battle] I found these to be really overstable, even after abuse, it still is really dumpy.

Parkntwoputt, have you tried a CRF Viper? It's classified as a fairway driver, but, IMO, it's more of midrange than a driver, and it's available up to 180g. The DX Viper is rated +1 high speed turn, +5 low speed fade, so it's MORE high speed overstable than a Champ Monster (HST 0 , LSF +5), and the CFR Vipers I've thrown are more overstable than the DX.

Also check out the current ('04/'05) Super Roc. I have several of each, and for me, they're significantly more overstable (and slower) than all but my '01 CE and '04 Glo Rocs. IMO, that's a bad thing 'cuz the very LAST thing I'm looking for in a Roc is a high overstability, but if if that's what you're looking for, the Super Roc just might be the ticket.

Thanks for the responce Chase and Fore. Chase as you recall I was looking for a disc in the 180 size, Whippet and Gator, which I have both in champion plastic do their respective jobs, but I was looking for something more multipurpose. I use these for trick shots and extreme +30mph head winds.

Fore, Vipers are heavier then 180, I am not sure about the true max but the one I threw was 183g.

I was asking Dave, maybe I did not make it clear enough, about a midrange that would just finish left. Vipers, Whippets, Gators, (and Monsters) are all meat hooks. And none of them come in regular production runs of champion plastic (except Monsters), thus making them harder to get your hands on. I specificly asked about a disc similar or slightly more stable then a CFR Glow Roc. All the other Rocs, DX, KC and the Super (I have both '04/'05) are just basically dead straight with very little fade, for me except when thrown with 50-60% power. I like to use a midrange for for holes up to distances of 350ft on level surfaces except into adverse winds.

Basically a disc that has a similar feel and glide to the Roc, but resists turning over and always finishes left, but not a meat hook.

Basically a disc that has a similar feel and glide to the Roc, but resists turning over and always finishes left, but not a meat hook.



Like a Champion Gremlin?

Basically a disc that has a similar feel and glide to the Roc, but resists turning over and always finishes left, but not a meat hook.



Like a Champion Gremlin?

Nah. I throw Champion (Pro Line) Gremlins, and, IMO, they're less overstable than Rocs.

Under the rating scale (http://web.archive.org/web/20030419052731/www.innovadiscs.com/discs/comparison.html) used during the time the Gremlin was on the market, Rocs were rated 4/4/0/+2 (speed/glide/high speed turn/low speed fade); Champion (Pro Line) Gremlins were rated 5/3/0/+2 (http://web.archive.org/web/20030426091031/www.innovadiscs.com/discs/championGremlin.html).

The fact that the LSF numbers are the same is probably more a reflection of the fact that Innova uses only whole numbers in its rating scale than it is a reflection of their relative stabilities. IMO, the Roc's "+2" would have been in the mid- to high twos, whereas, again IMO, the candy Gremlin's "+2" would be in the low twos. YMMV, but I throw Gremlins when I need something faster than a Roc or that absolutely, positively, must finish dead straight. (Note that I have four unthrown Pro Line Gremlins in my backup stash, two in my field practice bag, and one in "game" bag, so I'm not comparing the stability of beat, two year old Gremlins to new Rocs.)

Parkntwoputt, I don't think we have "run the gauntlet" at all with what you are calling "overstable". I assume you are talking about a very stable Roc like mid. I don't know if you have tried the Champion Shark, but it certainly fits the bill for 180gm, unless you don't like the feel. And, I have not abandoned the Candy Gremlin for 175gm. Just haven't had time. What we have been doing lately, in develeoping new discs, is filling a huge hole in our line for slightly turning and turning discs in candy plastic. In the past, we relied on our DX plastic to wear and become turning models from their original stable beginnings. Candy doesn't do that very well. I have not been able to play enough rounds with my candy discs to even break in a Sidewinder, let alone, something overstable. I assume many others are in the same boat. A disc that works for straight and turnover in candy out of the box, is what we have been developing. We probably won't make a DX version in any of these, unless there is a demand. The Leopard is the forerunner of most of the new discs we are producing. The Coyote is the mid range.

Just a note on technique regarding cranking on a disc and having it go straight or flip: Except for the high face wind shot, most all of the discs that we make, (models with torque resistance) can be cranked pretty hard, if done with the proper technique, and not flip and roll, even if they have a turning characteristic. It has to do with the angle of attack. Any nose up attack will work with a turning disc. Nose up with a stable disc will kill the shot or stall it. Nose up into a wind is difficult because it will turn your shot into an MTA floater. So, unless you have to throw low line drive shots with the nose down, or low into the wind, an unstable disc can be thrown as hard as you want with the nose up, and it will go straight and far. It does take some amount of finesse. And you have to know your disc.

Thanks for letting me pick your brain Dave.

I do have some slight mechanics problems. My coach says I have a small degree of break to my wrist when I release. Good thing about that is I get a ton of spin on the discs and it keeps them straight and floating longer. Bad thing is that I basically throw all max weight, and overstable discs except for my few turnover discs. My coach says that with time I will stop breaking my wrist, but if a local pro from Birmingham with my same "problem" can place 20th at USDGC last year, then I am not fretting too much about it.

Thanks for the responce Dave.

BTW - A beat up Champion Leopard is a SWEET disc. I can make that thing do a right turn hook (RHBH)! Of course, like you said, it took a long time to get it beat up that way.

My Coach...LOL.

Nice hearing the Gremlins not dead. Thanks Dave!

Hey Dave, how different is the Coyote from a QMS -- both in terms of flight characteristics and in terms of the mold?

robj, the mold is similar, and so is the flight characteristic. I would say that the QMS is between a Roc and the Coyote in flight characteristic. The QMS is more high speed stable than the Coyote, and more low speed overstable too.

Dave,
Have you heard anymore on when S. Johnson may release his new book? Thx

robj, the mold is similar, and so is the flight characteristic. I would say that the QMS is between a Roc and the Coyote in flight characteristic. The QMS is more high speed stable than the Coyote, and more low speed overstable too.



Sounds more like the Aurora MS -- which i really like. For some reason it's the perfect forehand disc for me.

if i can get you back on throwing understable plastic nose up to fly straight (rather thsan flipping) -- is the JK Valkyrie easier to throw nose up than the Sidewinder in terms of it requiring less finesse? (i think you once mentioned some discs which were less nose angle dependent than others...?)

flynvegas, no I haven't heard anything for a while. He hasn't asked any questions either, so he might have gone to print. He's overdue from his estimation a year ago.

robj, most drivers are nose dependent, especially low profile, sharper nosed drivers. It doesn't matter which particular characterist. A Monster is very nose dependent as is a Sidewinder. A Sidewinder can be thrown slightly nose up as the characteristic turn will allow it to bring its own nose down as it turns. The Monster is DOA with nose up, and will be going hard left (RHBH). In term of how much finesse a disc requires: I think it depends on the rate of turn and the domeyness of the individual disc. IMO, domey discs make better finesse discs as they are easier to read and fade back more predictably. It used to be the case that a domier disc would invariably have more high speed turn. But that is not always the case anymore with high speed drivers.

When will the BS leopards be out. Sorry if this has already been asked.

The Barry Leopard won't be out for a while as we have to sell through our existing stock of previously stamped discs. Probably six months. Maybe less.

The Barry Leopard won't be out for a while as we have to sell through our existing stock of previously stamped discs. Probably six months. Maybe less.




Was there any tweaking done to this disc, Dave? I really love the Leopard, but havent liked the newer plastic versions, and still only throw CE versions. Any chance in seeing the Leopard in the opaque plastic that the Eagles, Panthers, Banshees and a few others came in? Thanks Dave.

Chase, no tweaking. Not sure which plastic you are referring to, but it is run in the same stuff. It's not usually opaque, but sometimes colorants make it opaque in yellow blue and red.

Dave, was there any tweaking done to the two time beast?
I have the watermelon color and it fades left. Seems more predictable than when I threw one a few years ago

matchu, yes the Beast has been tweaked twice.

I just picked up a champion beast, it seems longer, more stable and thus more predictable than my dx beast. The champ. also seems like it may be a bit wider, I'm wondering if this is accurate and how to tell which version it is.

The lastest version has the thickest nose. Not any sharper, just more meat through the center. Same width from rim to nose tip.

How about the SE Leopards? Any chance of running some new ones? My buddy has one and the plastic seems to be super durable. He's been using it for about a year and it still flies very straight.

Blarg, I am not sure which SE that was. It could have been the original candy material.

Which run of SE plastic was the original CE? I'm guessing it was a blend of the '99 SE with CE, is that correct? Was there a difference in the feel/grippiness?

Wow, I never knew.

Thanks for your reply to these mundane questions.

Ray

The original CE was fairly stiff and opaque in heavier weights. SE was and is Special Edition. It could be made with any plastic, but is usually a Pro blend or candy.

Chase, no tweaking. Not sure which plastic you are referring to, but it is run in the same stuff. It's not usually opaque, but sometimes colorants make it opaque in yellow blue and red.



Im referring to the plastic Ive been bugging you about for some time. First I asked about the newest Champion Eagles, ect. If you want to PM me your address, Ill send you one for a definite answer. I know it sounds funny, but Im serious.

hey dave,
thank you for your reply to my question about the whip.
My other question is about the Classic Aviar.
How many different types of classic aviars are there?
I have been using them for about 2 years now(about as long as i've been playing disgolf) and i've run across a few types.

The only ones that i play with are the Super STiff Small bead. They have almost no bead like an AviarP&A.
The other I have picked up was a softer version that was Big beaded. I didn't like these at all.

I just bought a PRactice set from zonedriven of classic aviars and came across about 3 different types in the 5 discs i got.
2 are exactly like my classic aviars(super stiff)
1 is a little softer
and 2 of them are soft like omega drivers.

Are there that many different types of classic aviars or all the small beads the same and they just vary in stiffness depending on drying conditions and such in the factory?

thx again for your replies and all your knowledge that you have in discgolf technique and discs.

-Scott Lewis

I love BB soft classic aviars. I have 16 of them. Since David said that there will be no more BB only stiff SB. But 16 will last me forever :D

scott, we have in the past made many "feels" of small bead Aviars, but now we are only making a small bead classic we call the stiffy, and our Putt & Approach. In the past we have made small beads with several variations of plastic including the Omegas AP and SS. We dropped the big bead Driver, and replaced it with the small bead Classic which feels and flies most like the original Aviar. There are still three versions of big beads left: JK, KC, and Pro. JK is soft, KC hard, and Pro in Pro type plastic in between.

Hi Dave,

I hope you can help me out on this one, i am running the British Open this year and have been kindly donated some old discs, one of which i haven't the foggiest what it is other than it's an innova disc, this is what it says on it

1994 PDGA World Disc Golf Championships Pleasure Island, Port Arthur, Tx. this is the stamp, the weight is 179g and on the top it has 5 circular grooves all the way around and states on the top side that it is "Designed and produced exclusively for wham-o by Innova Champion Discs inc.

We are going to raffle this disc off but would like to let everyone know what it is and other than historical value is it worth anything? I can email some pictures to you, but haven't worked out how to embed them on this forum yet.

Thanks in advance

Tim
Only 10 spots left...

Sounds like it may be either a Whamo 44, 77, or 78 mold. The value will be that it's from the Worlds. $15 to $30 US.

Sounds like it may be either a Whamo 44, 77, or 78 mold. The value will be that it's from the Worlds. $15 to $30 US.



Thanks for that, how do you find out what mould it is? It would be nice to be accurate about what we are offering for people to win.

Tim

Is there a mold # on it like the old 40 & 50 molds had? If not it may be hard to describe, the 44 is 21.6 dia. the 77 and 78 is 21.7.

I tried Steve Hatwell's Worlds catalog and these were not in there for that year. http://wdgc.home.comcast.net/wdgc.html

There are pictures of these molds in other years, maybe you can tell from them.

Could also be an Apollo. The Apollo also had the 5 ribs and came up to 180 grams.

Just answered the question, it's a 91 mold. Look into the '94 Worlds.

Just answered the question, it's a 91 mold. Look into the '94 Worlds.



Yep, that's a good site with all the different discs from the worlds and yep mine is a 179 Wham-O 91 mold, yellow, should be a good raffle prize, thanks for helping, i also have a special edition 2001 Pro Worlds Z Reaper that looks very sweet that we are raffling also, all the discs will be on the site over the weekend for anyone that's interested, a big thanks to all the Southern National DGers who donated these discs.

Tim

Hey Dave, i just received two slightly used 10x Eagles in the mail yesterday. One is dyed, the other is all black with a hotfoil stamp. They have noticeably different rims. The dyed one has more of an Orcish rim, a little more curvy, while the black one is straighter and more blunt. Do you know anything about this? And if so, which would/should have more stability? Thanks.

Just got an Ebay disc and it says BB on the back. Its old and has the Ching flying eye stamp. It looks kind of driverish. Is this a Ching Bomb? Thanks to anyone who answers.

Tim, if the disc is the same size as an Aviar, it is most likely an overweight 91. (Legal to 175gm) If it is the size of a Roc, it might be a 77, 78, or 44.

FlyinHigh, the second sounds like an L version. The more curvey x version should have more stability, especially low speed.

Roc Steady, it should be a bomb, as BB was the marking. A Bomb was a pretty line drive type disc similar to a Banshee, but with a straighter finish.

Cool, thanks Dave.

Tim, if the disc is the same size as an Aviar, it is most likely an overweight 91. (Legal to 175gm) If it is the size of a Roc, it might be a 77, 78, or 44.



Hi Dave, it's definitely nothing like an aviar, the profile is more roc like, did they do different discs that year with the same stamp then? :confused: My stamp is that of the outline of the states, the same one they have on that website flyinvegas posted, how do i find out for sure?

Tim

Dave, why is it that I love Valkyries so much? I try to throw other drivers, but I always come back to the Valkyries. I especially notice this when I am having form issues. The Valk just seems to be more consistent for me than any other disc.

Is the Valkyrie less touchy when it comes to form problems than some of the other discs?

Oh yeah, one more thing...keep making these softer JK Aviar-X discs. They are absolutely magical. I think I might cry if I lose any of them and find out I can't replace them.

Tim, I'm guessing a little but, I believe the 91 had San Marino engraving on the bottom, an XD looking bevel edge and looked a little like a smaller Stingray. Flew like it too. It was only the diameter of an Aviar, but didn't look like it. I think the other discs had Ontario engraving on the bottom. The 44 was like a Viper and the 77 and 78 looked like a Stingray and Cobra respectively.

ajones, no worries about the JK Aviars. The recent run was the best we have ever done. The Valk does tend to forgive one classic problem: nose up throws. If your form problem involves crashing to the fade, then you are probably throwing nose up.

Dave, are you stalking me? Nose-up does seem to be my main issue when I really get down to it. Are there other discs that I can use as a crutch until I figure out a way to rid myself of nose up throwing?

matchu, yes the Beast has been tweaked twice.



What does this mean?

The Beast is my go to driver, it is just stable enough to keep from flipping on me. I've been using discs all purchased approx a year ago but just bought a new one. Is it going to fly differently?

ajones, yes, a Sidewinder or Pro Valkyrie.

thanks Dave

ajones, yes, a Sidewinder or Pro Valkyrie.



Really!?! I've always felt that my sidewinder was very nose sensitive, almost as much as my orc. If you get the nose up a touch, the "S" is small, and the glide is gone. maybe it's more height sensitive than nose sensitive, as it's more my weight shift than nose angle that sends them skyward for me.

Maybe it's me, maybe I got a freak disc...It sure did fly great today though (I think I may have tickled the 400' mark for the first time ever)

Hi Dave,

Question about patents:

I bought an early Piranha (tall, narrow Thumbtrac) the other day that has the notation "Pat. Pend." on the Thumbtrac and lacks the "Patent No. 4.568,297" on the bottom of the flight plate. Am I correct in presuming that the "Pat. Pend." notation refers to the Thumbtrac patent rather than Patent No. 4,568,297?

Also, in checking my other Piranhas and Birdies, I noticed that none of them have the "Patent No. 4,568,297" notation on them, either. Were there other disc models introduced after the patent was granted that do not have the patent number?

Thanks for your reply.

I find the same thing. My Champ Valkyries are less nose angle sensitive than Sidewinders which are faster but seem to require more finesse. I just put another Champ Valk in the bag and am considering putting back in my Champ Cheetahs too. Dave are they another disc you can throw nose up to get to fly straight?

Hi Dave,

Question about patents:

I bought an early Piranha (tall, narrow Thumbtrac) the other day that has the notation "Pat. Pend." on the Thumbtrac and lacks the "Patent No. 4.568,297" on the bottom of the flight plate. Am I correct in presuming that the "Pat. Pend." notation refers to the Thumbtrac patent rather than Patent No. 4,568,297?

Also, in checking my other Piranhas and Birdies, I noticed that none of them have the "Patent No. 4,568,297" notation on them, either. Were there other disc models introduced after the patent was granted that do not have the patent number?

Thanks for your reply.



I think that the 4568297 patent is for the sharp nosed driver style of disc, with the patented triangular shaped rim. The two you listed are stub nosed up discs. I could be wrong though.

ajones, yes, a Sidewinder or Pro Valkyrie.




You wouldnt lump a Champion Viking in this category?

Dave -- is there a reason you don't make beadless aviars anymore? My first JK that I acquired, I still putt with today, and its bead has worn completely off. I can't putt with my new ones!

Felix, I was talking to Mike N. about this a few weeks ago and he mentioned that the patent was for the nose of the disc. He also said that he thinks the patent ran out.