NOTE: I posted this a few months ago just hours before one of the Message Board Server Crashes. I didn't ever see any responses, so I'm posting it again.

Does anybody remember this famous thread from rec.sport.disc:
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&[email protected] com&rnum=1&prev=/groups?q=lebeau yadda distance group%3Arec.sport.disc&hl=en

Now that over 5 years have gone by, I'm wondering:
- Where is this guy (Rick LeBeau) now?
- What was this Distance scam all about?
- If it wasn't an out-right scam, what exactly was his "radical" new technique that will easily add 20m to your throws? (I'm always in the market for an easy way to get more distance.)

Anyone?

Thanks,
rodney

hahahaha, I remember that thread. Boy, he took some s*** for posting that, didn't he?

I bet it's a Chicken Wing.

Dave Dunipace, do you remember this guy? He mentions that he trained with you.

oops, double post

<FONT COLOR="ff0000">����</FONT>, I was funny back then:
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&amp;[email protected]&amp;rnum=157&amp;prev=/groups?q=garnett&amp;start=150&amp;hl=en&amp;group=rec.sport.d isc&amp;rnum=157&amp;selm=9511151720591.The_Win-D.ruck%40delphi.com

I don't know if I was funny, but I was funnier than I am now:

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&amp;threadm=19990830145727.08360.00002114 @ng-cc1.aol.com&amp;rnum=1&amp;prev=/groups?as_q=tune%20up%20hotels%20dogs&amp;as_ugroup=re c.sport.disc&amp;hl=en

Man it was fun messing with the Ulty Dudes.

rodney

Yes, I know him and did mentor him for a while, as I did for many world champions. I did it for free.http://pdga.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif

Rick is still kicking around San Diego. Mainly in the secret "San Diego Free Flyers" frisbee club. He was around a lot for WFDF last summer.

Can he throw? What's his secret?

Yes, he can throw very well, but I am skeptical about the 'secret'.

Here are a couple of distance secrets Morgan. You can take them or leave them.
1. (Already told you)Use your fingers and wrist as springs rather than hinges.
2. "Arm speed" comes from elbow motion rather than arm motion per se.
3. Very little momentum is necessary and can be counter productive. IE. reaching back with the disc or a long run up. Finishing is much more important.
4. Power is generated mainly by pulling through the whip with your hips and shoulders.
5. The whip is created from elbow down.
6. Prepare your shot from the whip back. In other words, find how you want to position your body such that you have the most power pulling at the very end of the whip rather than the beginning.
7. Aim with the whip momentum not the motion of the disc up to the whip.
8. Load your wrist and fingers lightly with the disc in the "launch" position.
9. The launch position includes the position of the flight plate and most importantly the back of the disc at the time of launch.
10. Never take your focus off the disc position and back of disc which will leave latest.
11. Don't think. Feel. Fluid, rhythmic, integration is probably impossible while you are thinking about what you are doing.
12. You can't throw the disc with your brain. No matter how much you know about technique, you have to perform, not recite.
13. Do think before you throw. Make sure you know what you want to do, and have the ability to do it. (footing, injuries, wet disc, etc.

There are probably a few more 'secrets' that are only secret if you don't know them.

Rick was fourth in distance at the World Masters Overall in Boulder this year, his longest throw was 148 meters.

I've noticed that there is a point of diminishing return for arm speed (forehand throws). I think the problem is that arm speed does not equal extra spin on disc, and no matter how hard you throw, once the disc stops spinning it stops flying. Arm speed does help a disc fly straight through a small space or under a canopy of trees.

Hi Dave,

Concerning point 5 in your previous post, I'm assumming what you mean is that the wrist should be tilted down a little (toward the ground), causing the elbow to dip slightly. I've spoken to Tomas Eksrom about this and he recommends the same form. What is the reason for this? I do remember a picture of Chris Voigt in DGWN with him posing this form. Is it to enable the wrist to snap clean and level (no accidental nose-ups or nose-downs) or to help tense the proper tendons for optimum spring action?

As a side note, it seems that in the Martial Arts, the forward punch is delivered with that same tilt/tightness and it's actually the first 2 knuckles that strike first.

On point 7, "Aim with the whip momentum not the motion of the disc up to the whip"... Are you refering to the take-back and swing of the disc, up to the elbow whip -- that the motion need not be such a straight line pull but more natural?

When you say "load your wrist and fingers lightly at the launch position", are you refering to how tightly to grip? I know it's possible to stiffen your wrist and forearm and still keep a relatively loose grip. How exactly should the disc snap off the index finger and how critical is thumb-pressure vs. finger-pinch. What grip do you use? Should you also stiffen the fore-arm and back hand/arm muscles or will that inhibit the elbow snap?

For maximum strength at the whip, should the disc lag behind a little on the pull-through, near the left shoulder as I start to face the target?

Thanks in advance for any advice you can give.

Mike

Check out Disc Golf World News from 3 issues ago, they compare arm speed with D. There's a linear correlation but lots of deviation from the line.

Michael, no point 5 wasn't referring to that, although it is correct that you need a wrist down position to have the disc flat to avoid off axis torquing and severe loss of power. I was referring to speed versus power. Speed mostly comes from the elbow down to the fingers. Use of the extending elbow generates most of the orbital velocity necessary to oppose the gravity well (power) of the shoulders, hips, and legs down.

On point 7, the path the disc takes from gravity well to point of separation does not affect the tangent except at the point the tangent begins.

When I said load your wrist and fingers lightly, I was referring to having the wrist down and in launch position such that it is only necessary to concentrate on acceleration and not form.

As to finger versus thumb: They are one, and are critical in timing to achieve maximum acceleration before separation. Specific grip doesn't matter except that it should match your finger/thumb strength.

The upper arm muscles should not be pre stiffened, only the lower arm and wrist, and only enough to maintain the launch position of the disc. At impact (snap), the fingers, wrist, and arm is stiffened much like a baseball throw or karate chop.

Can't answer the last question.

This is some of the best information I have EVER seen on this board. Thanks from ME!!!!

Ford

Which method is better for D, or is it more of a personal preference?

1. Flipping a stable disc with Anhyser or
2. Flipping an understable disc with a fairly flat or hyser release?

In cases where D is all that matters, eliminate Flipping. When a disc is flipping it is burning thrust and rotation.

If a disc is delivered with Anhyzer, it doesn't have to expend the energy of flipping. Even more...if it is flipped during delivery, the flip itself is added spring to the drive.

Once it has been delivered...it is immediately experiencing full flight on a line that will not be altered until the disc starts coming out on it's own. (Unless you hit something) Then the disc experiences it's next unimpeded flight until the ground gets in the way or it simply stops flying and falls to Earth.

It's simply a matter of finding how much air the particular disc is going to need to get it's full two flights and figuring out how far left you have to accomodate the full right turn and fade back left. The second part is tough! Big D is not big accuracy.

To answer the riddle:
Depends on what you need to do with that approach shot! http://pdga.com/discus/clipart/proud.gif

Good answer, Thanks for the good advice Randy!

It seems like method #2 would give you more of as "S" flight path, thus more D. But I can see where the forward motion/energy is probably more important.

I look forward to experimenting more with that method this spring.

The other principal involving S flight and D is this. When a disc is thrown flat and straight it will fade off to the left at the end of the flight. RHBH In an S flight the disc will fade straight ahead giving you even more distance.

Some good posts by Chris Voight after he set the distance record:
chris voight (http://pdga.com/discus/messages/47/1859.html?988335835)

Oh...I should add that todays fast, stable discs (they will be tomorrows slow ones) do allow for a straight crush for big D. I know guys that are crushing with alot of power straight ahead. There is so much torque, the disc flips immediately after take-off, but being fast and stable, the disc doesn't make a right turn. The disc seems to be sitting on a perfect balance between the forces of fade and the forces of turnover.

For max D I think they are losing a little in the wide open delivery of the Anhyser but as the discs improve, they are catching up in a straight line.

I throw a CE Valkyrie, and I use a hyzer release. It flys straight and then flips up and turns over, and then comes back hyzer. I think that flight gives you most distance.

the famous <FONT SIZE=" 2">~</FONT> curve

We can call it the tilde curve of Brightbill

Dave, or someone. I have read about the spring thing ( I think in an old article Dave wrote in DGWN). I don't really understand it, could someone expand on this in some detail. Thanks and Happy Holidays.

Thanks Dave,

You have given me a lot to think about. It's these subtle points that really add up to distance and control, and I think a lot of people don't realize this. The way I see it, you're only gonna get 300-350 ft from the "speed-arm" technique - which many people use. This inevitablely leads to injuries.

As the wrist flexes naturally during the quick acceleration of the elbow snap, is there a critical angle of dimishing return. For example, "beyond 15 degrees is counter productive."

Dave,

How important is the spin move at the end of the throw? I've noticed Ken and Barry actually are able to plant and spin on their heels. It seems more stable. I've always tried to spin on the ball of my foot and sometimes I break my knee to help follow through. It sometimes seems that balance is lost, too. Am I losing significant energy by not spinning properly?

Thanks,
Mike

Here's an idea,,,why doesn't someone put together an instructional video explaining all of this. Show in detail and slow motion finger spring, elbow snap and everything else. Innova has enough players in their stable to put on a good show. I know I would shell out good money for such a tape and I would guess there are others that would too.

The spring or tendon bounce works by using gravity or momentum to build up a force that is released to do work. A kangaroo jumps using this force. It is a rebound force added to the forward velocity of the hand. Even if the disc were spinning, it would be extremely difficult to throw very far at all without the use of this force. All throwers use this force to some extent whether they are aware of it or not. My point has always been to become aware of it and use it to its fullest potential. Explaining the motion is more difficult than telling you to stiffen your wrist and fingers as you hit the whip. But I'll try.

. The faster you can accelerate the disc forward, the more it will resist acceleration against your wrist and fingers. If you take a strong spoon and hold the handle with your right hand while your left hand attempts to bend it back, it will spring forward when your left hand releases it. This is essentially what is happening when you throw a disc. The disc's mass and momentum is what holds your fingers and wrist back until they spring the disc forward. Speed will not work the spring. Acceleration does. That is the change in speed over time. The greater the change in speed over the shortest time frame will produce the most force against the spring to be utilized as a bounce along with the velocity vectors.

Michael, the spin move is part of the 'velocity vectors'. In order to pull through the end of the snap, your hip and shoulder will take your knee to a place it doesn't want to go. The tension is released with the spin. Personally, I would use the ball of the foot, but many throwers do spin on the heel. Yes, you will lose energy by not spinning properly, but there is more potential energy and flexibility in a slightly bent knee and the weight on the ball rather than the heel.

Thanks Dave. I understand what you're saying, now I'll try an apply it.

I tried today to use my wrist and fingers as springs like you said. I discovered one really weird thing...on the throws that went really far I heard a snapping sound from the tips of the fingers when the disc left my fingers. It was like the sound you make when you snap your fingers. But on the weak throws I didn't hear that sound. Whenever I heard the snap sound I knew it was going to be a crusher, but the problem is, I don't know what I did to make it snap. When it makes the snap sound it goes 375 to 400, but when it doesn't I'm lucky to crack 275. What do I have to do to make it snap every time?

The "snap" happens when you keep your grip at the leading (front) edge of the throw as long as possible. When done properly, the snap just happens at release like the crack of a whip. At this point, you've managed to put it all together so that the disc is at max speed and good spin at release.

What probably causes most folks to have trouble getting a good snap is they are 'forcing it' rather than "letting it happen".

Forcing a snap with conscious wrist action (which starts way back at the beginning of the throw with an effort to over **** the wrist) requires too much split second thinking to do consistantly. This also causes throws to be less accurate, with varied spin, and with marginal control of the flight plate.

"Letting it happen" requires learning to let your wrist relax while holding a reasonably strong grip that controls the flight plate. Letting the disc guide the release provides power, control and spin (snap).

In my hands, the full power grip tends to lock my wrist, which causes me to try to force the snap, rather than just letting it happen.

This problem is avoided (or corrected) by learning any of a variety of grips (like the modified power grip, the flip the bird grip, stacked grip, etc).

My suggestions, don't let this info stop anyone from using the full power grip. There is a certain amount of entertainment to be gained from watching folks struggle to play consistantly... http://pdga.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif

Morgan, the snap is caused by your fingers slamming together after the disc rips out of your grip as it should. Although the snapping sound isn't necessary it is indicative of proper acceleration. The disc is pivoting between your thumb (base or pad depending) and a finger part. For me it's the second knuck of my index finger, but for many, it's the second knuckle of your middle finger. At separation (launch) the rim of the disc forces the thumb apart from the fingers. If this is done quickly and powerfully enough, the thumb snaps back against the fingers with a pop. If your finger pressure is insufficient at separation, you will neither get a snap, nor proper acceleration as you need to hold the disc as long as possible for maximum rotation and acceleration induced.

This is the coolest stuff I have ever read on here, and it validates why a lot of the guys that throw far are not overly muscular. It also explains why some guys (like me, for example) can throw a football or baseball pretty far, but have weenie arms when throwing plastic. I wonder if one of those finger-squeezie-grip-enhancing-thingamajigs would help? I guess I have all winter to find out.

Thanks Dave, now if you could only teach us how to putt http://pdga.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif

Dan, yes those finger-squeezie-grip-enhancing-thingamajigs do seem to help. The Jarvis twin use them all the time.

Its funny how we can talk about how to gain distance, change grips, change footwork, and break down all mechanics until were blue in the face (or blue in the hands) on this message board, and then all of the sudden a thread comes along like this and a big HUGE lightbulb goes off over my head and it all seems to click. Thank you very much for all of this info. If Innova was able to put together a video with some of its top players showing these (and other) techniques, I would be first in line to pay good money.

(Just 4 more days until I get to unwrap my CE Valkyries !!!)

A couple of quick obervations about distance from one who does not throw very far...

First, although most of the people who offer advice seem to recommend the "across the nipples" kind of line, many of the pictures and clips I see of top throwers show them throwing across the solar plexus at the highest, and often down across the navel. Is this one of those "try to throw across the nipples so at least you will actually throw at the solar plexus instead of at hip level" pieces of advice? Just curious.

Also, at this time of year in Ohio it is pretty wet. (Oh yeah, and windy, too, and did I mention cold?! Gee, it owuld be nice to be back at Morley Field...) Even concrete tee pads can get slippery, and my local little 9-hole course has no pads. It is hard to concentrate on the wrists, etc., when the feet are going all kinds of tangential directions! I am not complaining, just laughing about what sounds so good in theory being sometimes pretty useless in practice. Maybe we need cleats...

I played a few rounds last night in which we took little tiny runup steps and then threw almost entirely with our arms. The goal of the footwork was to keep from fallng on our keesters, not to give us max distance. But we had fun nonetheless.

Finally, I too really appreciated Dave D.'s advice, particularly about using the wrist as a spring, not a hinge. Great food for thought!

From my experience and from what I have been told, the snapping is exactly the same as if you were snapping your middle finger. Everyone should be able to produce the snap, which is a big part of getting D. The Power Grip or some version should be used. I like to tuck the pinky under for max D. A big follow through that keeps you spinning around is another factor. And follow through is achieved by Foot work. Foot work is the most important and overlooked factor that people should learn to get D. That's my 2 cents. Hope it helps. Merry Christmas, and may your discs fly far and straight.

Dave,
In BG A lot is put into the back swing in order to set up the forward swing. What do i need to do to ensure maximum velocity forward disc movement. I have been trying to bring the disc Straight (not bending the elbow) out in front of me, and then around with my arm across my chest to pull straight across the chest. are there any secrets to the backswing.

Thanks in advance

Colin

Way back when I was playing ultimate in the 1970's some of the guys kicked off with a 360 turn around shot. Also in MTA everybody used a 360. I never bothered with the 360 shot because I threw farther than they did with the Boda shot. Well, as we all now know the Boda (overhand) doesn't work well with golf plastic so I broke down and taught myself the 360 yesterday, and let me tell you........<FONT SIZE=" 2">HOLY ����!!!!!!!</FONT>

Man that's a fun throw! So easy, requires no effort, no reach back, and that disc just rockets outta your hand like a Winchester short. I feel like I found a new toy for Christmas. I have a good feeling I will be doing 360's every time now like Hosfeld does. The accuracy is good automatically because you're facing the same way as the runup.

Best thing about the 360, it cause no stress or strain and doesn't mess with your arthritic joints or . This is something a guy my age can use! Christmas came early for me this year!

<FONT SIZE=" 2">360!!!</FONT>

Colin, best advice I could give is don't do it. Do the backswing with your elbow and not the disc. The real acceleration of the disc takes place from chest out, not from out, in to chest, and out again. This is a concept that very few understand because most think the disc is accelerated linearly. It's actually centrifugal, but the disc does travel on a relatively straight line giving the impression of linear acceleration. A 360 turnaround tends to show the centrifugal nature better. Hope I didn't confuse you too much. Gotta run to ortho. Good luck.

Tomorrow I'm gonna learn how to combine the 360 centrifugal thing with the elbow centrifugal thing Dave talks about. How do you put z's on a disc? Centrifugally!

Tomorrow, 360 with the elbow thing.

One final thought...Thanks Dave, you have revealed the last pieces of the puzzle for me (I think). All that's left to do is hit the practice field.

Here are some tips that I've found to be useful:

1. Eye contact with an aiming point is crucial to accuracy. The disc should always launch at the same point within your peripheral vision (more or less). That is your "close-up" visual reference that ensures you are throwing consistantly enough to improve. Throwing Darts is a good example.

2. Once you get a grip on the disc, lock down and don't let go - even after the throw. It may take some time to get this down and you may have to put in on your pre-throw checklist until it is natural. One of my biggest problems was that I was letting go of the disc at random times during the throw -- very frustrating when you don't even know you are doing it.

Finally, don't try so hard. It shouldn't be so difficult to throw 300ft accurately. Not when you know all the secrets.

* teach us how to putt *

Consistancy is the name of the game with putting. There are lots of way to reach that goal.

For most any good putter, it all starts with foot work.

In most reasonable situations, my feet form a tee, with the back foot 90 degrees to the target, with the front foot pointed directly at the target, and in a line from the back foot to the target. Together, the feet form a tee, which is a modestly stable and functional position to make a putt.

Start out a couple feet directly behind the target and your disc and walk up to the disc, putting your feet in position as you reach your discs. If you don't feel right start over. It's a consistant and repeatable start position to whatever other technique you use.

The big advantage, besides a brain dead way to line up the putt, is the long edge of the back foot can be dug in to reduce slipping, which causes a lot of missed putts -- particularly in marginal wet and/or sloped conditions.

* at this time of year in Ohio it is pretty wet. (Oh yeah, and windy, too, and did I mention cold?! *

Forget the course, go to the soccer fields and practice. Many good players spend a lot of time off the course, at the field. Ten discs up and down, from goal post to goal post, RHBH, RHFA, RHR, RHTR, RHFA, LHBH, etc...

* advice seem to recommend the "across the nipples" kind of line *

OK, I'm not part of the 'most' crowd. For me, (baseball fastball at 63 MPH) pro stable 0 (168 gms) runs across the arm pits for about 100 yards. Pro Stable 2 (CE Fire Bird), is across the chin. Z-Xpress for me is a belly button shot.

Basically, where this magical 0 point is all depends on your arm speed.

The higher the arm speed, the higher up the body is the zero point.

Add a fist above that level for every pro stable above 0, subtract 1 for every level below.

Adjust stability according to experience. The disc stabily ratings are only modestly objective and vary greatly with weights.

Also don't forget to consider lift. For my lift happy overstable 167 CE Firebird that means across the chin and down to release at the shoulders (or some equivalent downward body movement).

I can do it over and over and over within a few feet from one soccer goal post to another. Add a few feet for various winds and cross winds...

Give the same CE FireBird disc to someone else who doesn't 'get it' and it flies way off to the adjacent field... Go figure.

Most curious is how I rarely carry a 0 stable driver disc. That's what my MRV, or Roc, or Fusion tank, or adjusted Rubber putter is for. With good disc knowledge, you can make most any reasonable driver disc of any stability fly a reasonably straight cork screw down a tunnel, so why carry a 0 stable discs... Or hammer a putter or approach disc... but that's another issue.

What a great thread! My average distance with the driver discs in the last year has gone from 225' to 300-325'. Along the way I've been telling my bud that I'm starting to get the "feeling". But I really can't put the feeling into words for him. Those throws just seem to happen especially when I just relax, take a slow 3 step walk up, keep the disc stuck to my chest, stay coiled, accelerate at the very last part of the throw and focus on a follow-thru. Sometimes I get the snap and thats when I get some really big D, out to about 400' .

This thread has helped me understand what is going on so much! Thanks to everyone for all the input. Now if I can not get too much stuff going on in the head and just let it happen...

Happy Holidays
Mike

One thing I've noted by watching BG and DG'er who can really crush it is that they really don't seem to TRY to throw/hit far. They always seem to have a little left "in reserve".


Better players achieve maximum distance through minimal effort. This comes down to balance IMO. Better players are always in balance. Watch footage of Climo, Stokely, Tiger Woods, John Daly (the best example) and they are all solid on their feet during the entire swing/throw. They could all try a little harder to get maximum D but that would probably put them in an unbalanced position and hurt both accuracy AND distace.

Personally I've found that I get my max D when I imagine swinging/throwing at around 80% of my max effort. I've measured this in BG on a launch angle tester and my clubhead speed was fastest when I tried to be smooth rather than "gorilla" it.

This summer i went to more of a BG style throw where I line up sideways, take a smallish X-step and then whip my arm as "fast and smooth" as I can. The snap happens automatically when I do it right. I'm now a little bit longer, more accurate, and more importantly not nearly as sore after a day on the course. Trying not to throw as hard and focusing on balance is the best thing I've done with my game next to tossing SE Teebirds...but that a different thread.

JH

I am up in PA right now and played Codorus State park today. I met the gentleman that runs the disc golf club up here and he let me try out the Optimizer. Holy cow, where did that thing come from, I have a KC Cheetah that is beat to the point it flips pretty aggressively and it is becoming almost a good back hand roller, but this optimizer, You can release it on it's edge and it will flip all the way over 180 degrees. It is a great back hand roller with absolutely no effort needed to flip it. The problem is it only has 2 purposes, 1 for cutting a massive right hand turn or 2 for becoming a back hand roller, but it will roll and roll and roll. My question is does anyone know what it does when it gets beat in, does it start to become more stable or does it spiral like a football.

Nah, there's a trick, that's all. It's a secret trick. It has something to do with what Dave Dunipace is talking about but I don't know what it is. I will figure it out, and I fully intend to get to the bottom of this, and find out the trick. It's a "trick of the trade" like putting your finger on the scale or something.

Two guys at Warwick know the trick. They can really, really crush without even looking like they are throwing hard or even trying. They calmly walk up to the tee pad, no runup at all, no reach back, no 360 turnaround, no follow through, no grunt, no effort, no nothing. They just do some weird little thing with their wrist and elbow, set their arm up, reach back just a little, and then calmly send the disc out 500 feet easy. Holy maloney! One guy in named Steve Brinster and the other is Mitch Sonderfan #17998. Mitch has only been playing disc golf one year and when his rating pops up in the rating document for the first time, it will be close to 1000 easy. You better watch this guy, believe me. He beats everybody.

I want to learn their secret trick so I can get my 1000 rating too.

Morgan, the "sectret trick" for a 1000 rating is practice and excellent putting. Very few of the highly rated players are even mediocre putters. Most are top notch. On the other hand. There are many booming drivers with mediocre putts that can't get within 25 points of 1000.

spellcheck is sectret for spelling secret

Everybody who was in attendance before the awards ceremony at this years USDGC was treated to a distance competition. Five or six players threw from the shack at the top of the hill out across the lake. I have no idea how far it was , as I can get a disc only about half way across the lake.Amongst the competitors was Steve Brinster. He aint tall, he aint big, he don't look look imposing nor does he look like he could throw it past a country mile. BUT , WOW !!! I don't know if any of his shots failed to go acoss and he did it with the appearance of ease. Incredibly smooth form without the huge runup or turnaround or grunting etc. At any rate, I don't think that it is a trick , it is magic. I am convinced that Steve , like Harry Potter , is a sorceror of great power. That explanation makes me feel better about my puny arm.

A big magic secret in obtaining the distance magic secret is believing that it can be a part of your reality. If you don't believe, you can not receive. If you can't imagine yourself doing it, you are very unlikely going to be able to do it in a physical reality. There are almost always multiple ways to skin cats. Your imagination can reveal limitations and alternative ways to the goal.

I returned to this sport about four years ago and added close to 75 feet to my max drive that first year back (from 300 to 375). The secret was learning how to throw the new plastic and playing the long tees at tough courses like Patapsco and Seneca whenever possible. I also hit the practice field on a semi-regular basis (where I learned that most DGers exxagerate like crazy when it comes to distance). A fun game to play is to try and throw fieldgoals from one goalpost to the other (360 feet).

I can consistently drive about 360 with accuracy, with occasional forays out to 400 or so. It would be nice to add 40 feet to that distance, however two years ago I hurt my elbow on the practice field, so these days I am more content to try and add 15 feet to my 50% putting range. As so many have said, that's the secret to succesful golf. Its easier on the body too. Putting is definitely an area where your imagination can become reality. There are no physical limitations on putting, only mental. Driving is another story. DD

Check out the USDGC scores. Some guy named McDaniel who can barely throw half-way across the lake with his "puny arm" did pretty well. DD

Stan, about that secret trick of "sorcery" that Steve Brinster knows. He showed it to Mitch Sonderfan that I mentioned above. I think they are Gemini twins in sorcery. They both throw exactly the same way, same elbow up high, same slow walk up, same everything. Both can throw a country mile without any runup or cross step or reach back or turning the head away or anything. It's all in the wrist and snap. But they won't teach "the trick" to anybody else. Those two just throw 3 times farther than anybody else, with total ease, and then just bask in all the glory of all the rest of us saying "ooh" and "aah" as we try to figure what they are doing. It's a secret. I don't know who can throw farther and makes it look easier, Steve or Mitch, but I'd put my money on Mitch. It's amazing. Really.

The reason they refuse to show anybody else the secret is, they like cash. Last weeks results in a field of 54 doubles players at Warwick:

1. brinster - sonderfan 59 51 = 110 $160
2. wolfe - lagrassa 61 53 = 114 $120
3. graham - wittman 59 56 = 115 $90
3. dussault - walsh 62 53 = 115 $90
5. lane - hogg 61 56 = 117 $50
5. phillips - polur 63 54 = 117 $50

It's organized crime!

Their 59 (long to long) and 51 (short to long) are the new course doubles records, by the way.

Just an added note on my USDGC , I am more pleased than you might think with my finish. Having torn cartiledge about one week prior to the event with surgery performed the week after the event , my finish (just finishing) was acceptable to my competitive spirit.
But , no more horn tooting, back to the distance thing. I have improved all aspects of my game over the years except in one arena , of course , distance. So , in the words of a dude I enjoy watching occasionally, "a man's got to know his limitations" I will gladly await Steve and the rest of the long arms in our woodsy Carolina courses ! Oh yes, I can run and hide !!!!! I'll take my stand and try to fend them off in the woods.

Morgan, see if you can find his magic trick here http://cheapfrisbees.com/brinster.html . All I could see was a normal throw, but it went really fast.

Yeah, look at his grip. Something is fishy about it, but I don't know what.

Well, it's probably the same magic trick that Rick Lebeau was charging money for, and it's probably the same trick that Dave is trying to tell us for free. As soon as I learn it I'm gonna keep it a secret too. It's probably a special grip or something. But you notice from those pictures, Brinster doesn't use a cross step or runup, he just plants his feet on the tee line and reaches back a little, just like Dave is saying.

Okay Dave, how much you charge to teach me the secret trick? I tried but didn't get it.

I don't know if I recognize Steve or not. He definitely looks familiar, and I wouldn't be surprised if I recognized his face from USDGC. From looking at the pictures, I can't see that he is doing anything different from what I told you. I can see that the things he is doing that are revealed in the pictures show excellent form. I can't pick up any mistakes. He does appear to spin on his heel, but his knee is bent anyway. From the position of his arm relative to his hips, (which are way open), and his shoulders (which don't appear to be finished yet) his arm was going very fast. He is almost certainly using elbow extension for speed. Either he has very strong fingers or he is using the base of his thumb.

One other thing. Shouldn't be too depressing for you Morgan. You may have to be satisfied with a consistent 400 ft. or so. When you get older, your tendons aren't as stretchy as when you are young. As a consequence, you can't jump as high, (Achilles tendon bounce), you can't throw as far with a ball, (flexor tendon bounce), and you can't throw a backhand as far, (extensor tendon bounce). Steve looks like a rubber band.

That's bad news, I was looking for a secret magic trick. I wanted to get D the easy way. But if you say I can't get over 400 with my tendons, so be it.

I STILL think there must be a trick, though.

The distance thing may be bad news for those who are a little long in the tooth , but I would refer you back to a prior Dunipace comment. Practice the putting. Great putting will bring the rest to their knees. That is a given. If you have any kind of work ethic , apply it to putting and leave the masses behind.
Merry CHRISTmas to all !!!

Yeah, it's true.

As for getting long in the tooth and losing distance on your drives, here's one fact to consider...Davis Johnson won the distance contest this year at Worlds in the Grandmaster's division. He's like 53 or 55 years old or something, I don't know, but he threw around 380 feet this year. But this same guy held the world distance record in 1974 at 385 feet with a 119 gram CSI lid when he was about 25 years old or so.

So, his distance with GOLF PLASTIC at 50 years old is LESS than his distance with tippy 119 gram frisbee plastic when he was in his 20's!! This is what we all have to look forward to!

John Ahart couldn't throw farther than 380 ft off the tee when he won Cincinnatti Worlds. He was very acurate, and was a killer putter.

Hmm... at 51, the old BH is about as long as ever, if not longer. However, that's the first round... The second round is another story.

The thumber has lost a bit of zip and blows out the bursa if not warmed up well... A blown bursa takes about a month to ease up so you can putt again.

If anything, what really goes as you get older is the time it takes to stay in condition...

Last October I played my first round of disc golf after 10 years of not throwing frisbees at all. After the first round I was too exhausted to do the second round. I was totally wiped out, and I was only 45 then. This year, I'm in much better shape thanks to disc golf. I can go 3 rounds easy and still don't get tired.

I think I figured out Steve's secret. If you look at the 3rd pic on that page it appears that he foot faulted, doesn't it?

Here's a link directly to the pic:
http://cheapfrisbees.com/tour/brinster3.jpg

There you go Morgan. All your years of searching for the secret have come to fruition http://pdga.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif

Okay Morgan, one more clue for you. The centrifugal force created by the turn of your shoulders along with your hips can be used very effectively to help extend the disc from a lower energy orbit next to your body to a much higher energy orbit as it escapes. In other words; you want to use centrifugal force to extend your elbow as quickly as possible and timed with the movement of your shoulders and upper arm. If you start with the disc away from your body, you will have to fight against centrifugal force before you can then use it.

Morgan, a very important note. Don't lock your plant foot down. It needs to pivot just after the snap to relieve tension on your knee. If you try what I have been telling you, you will not be able to stop turning until you tweak your knee or your foot pivots. Take your pick. http://pdga.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif

Fred, I power grip all of my drivers. If I change my grip I lose all distance. After shoulder surgery this summer I tried to switch to a fork grip but I couldn't even flip my rollers. I felt that the spin and snap(not sound)was significantly less. You mentioned something about power grip being less accurate. Why? What are your thoughts? I consider my power grip to be my most accurate grip. I am constantly being told that I "have the smoothest" form but I rarely throw over 400'. I've tried everything and have come to the conclusion that my lack of distance is related to lack of strength or lack of fast twitch muscles. Dave, what do you think one could do to improve acceleration once form is not an issue? What percentage does genetics dictate distance? We've really appreciated your input. This is the most interesting thread this year.

May be some secrets can be learned from analyzing Dr. Ricks form. His form is quite different. He seems to get D with little effort and does not bend over as much when he throws. His spinning speed is very fast. Rumors claim he even wears a back brace due to an injury. But I find that hard to believe when he seems to launch those discs so effortlessly. It's just to fast to see with the naked eye. Morgan, may be a back brace hidden under the shirt is the big secret that we are looking for.

I have always been told that I have great form, but my average drive is about 360'. Slowly my D is constantly improving, but I too am looking for any way to improve. Thanks guys for all the great advice.

May I add the importance of bending you knees. After many years of tennis lessons, I know that bending the knees is very important for power. It starts with your footwork. Then the rotation should start up the body. Every part should rotate, the ankles, the legs, the hips, the mid section, the shoulders, the arm, and finally the wrist and fingers. Good shoulder rotation is very important. Everthing should be rotated together, so the timing is also important. Timing will come with practice and concentration. Some form of the power grip and the snapping sound should also be used and achieved.

One thing that I noticed that is odd about that guy in the picture is his feet. Look at how his feet are almost at a 45 degree angle facing to the left of the target upon release. My feet are usually in line or close to being in line with the target. He is possibly getting more power because he is releasing the disc at a farther point throughout his follow through. If that makes any sense. I hope this helps. We should all be giving out our secrets to help others. Guys who hold back secrets should have their fingers broken, IMO.

just grip it and rip it ..is my secret to BIG D. and bud light doesn't hurt.. http://pdga.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif

Paul, genetics does dictate distance to some degree, but not usually below 500 ft. It helps a lot to be tall, strong, and flexible when you're trying for 700 ft. If form isn't an issue, then rhythm and strength are what is left. Most throwers who cannot get over the 400 ft barrier are expending too much energy getting to the snap, rather than using it on and through the snap where the acceleration occurs. The shortest, fastest acceleration curve is most efficient with the fastest, most powerful shoulder turn initially helping to accelerate the disc centrifugally, and then to catapult the disc out against the wrist and finger tendons at the end of the snap. Strong hips, thighs, buttocks, and torso muscles help, but a strong grip, flexibility, and excellent timing help more.

Yes Chris, you do have D. However, i have seen you throw a LONG way in the WRONG way because of that Bud Light. Do you have another? No...not a Bud Light, just a BUD?

The secret for distance has been encoded in this message. I'll give you one hint, RELAX. This message will self-destruct in......T minus 10....9....8....

I got a few brainstorms from this thread about what "the trick" might be, and tried them all over Chrsitmas. None of them worked. I'm still maxing at 375 with some lucky 400's. Never over 400, and never anything comparable to the throws I've seem Steve and Mitch do. I will spend all the rest of this week trying to figure out the trick. If I don't figure it out this week, I will kill myself.

1. It's not my age because I feel fine.

2. It's not the grip, I tried 400 different grips and they are all worse than the regular power grip.

3. It's not my size and strength, I am tall and lanky and as strong as a bull. I beat everybody in arm wrestling.

4. I'm not a spaz case. I should be able to do this.

i've always thought my-hero has one of the smoothest throws i've ever seen, and you've got great distance john. seeware has the ugliest form with good results. just raw power. no run up, off balance, footwork like an elephant. if he fell down everytime it would be complete. chris, i think you and stokley have almost the same grip. index finger not under the rim? just the tip? he fans the rest of his fingers more but i'm still baffled. i would guess that hand strength has little to do with that grip. i wonder if those guy's would describe their driver grip as anything more than firm? pure arm speed/acceleration. voight too? doesn't he fan? that goes to show how possibly unimportant grip might be to distance. i just put seeware in the same catagory as stokely and voight. i should be banned from the sport!

* I power grip all of my drivers. If I change my grip I lose all distance. *

It's a matter of practice when it comes to changing grips. Most any technique change as significant as fooling around with a grip will initially cost some performance lost until you become familiar with it and properly strengthen whatever is weak. The key is to do this sort of work off the course -- field practice. Also, don't just practice distance -- practice midrange shots too.

* You mentioned something about power grip being less accurate. Why? *

Two reasons. First, the power grip doesn't give particularly good control over the flight plane as some other grips.

Go grab a disc with a power grip and see how easy it is to bend the disc up and down. Compare that to the increased control you get with the fan, stacked, or flip the bird grips.

I've see some folks who have great arm speed but can hardly use it with a power grip. When they try a full speed throw, the disc hinges at the grip to tip up because of the lift of the disc during the throw. The result is the disc leaves with an anhyzer tilt and flies off to the right.

Secondly, the release of the power grip tends to be a conscious split second movement of the wrist at release. Get everything right, and you get a good throw. Get the timing a little off and with a long drive, the resulting skew to one side or the other can be quite significant after the disc goes 300 feet or more. It only takes one or two such events to mess up a good round.

* What are your thoughts? I consider my power grip to be my most accurate grip. *

Are there some folks who are better off keeping their power grip, at least in the short term (years). Perhaps you are one.

Also consider that the power grip is probably your most accurate grip if you haven't fully worked on developing a full range of grips. It's like McDonalds saying they haven't sold too much spagetti when they don't make spagetti.

I will say that the power grip surely feels like the most controlled grip one can use because you get such a good grip of the disc. However, the strength of the grip is also part of the problem with the grip when it comes to accuracy.

BG has the a similar feature with grips. The longer hitters have a relaxed grip which allows one to get a better whip (and accuracy) to the stroke. You can try all you want to use a strong grip to overpower the clubs to hit the ball further, but can't. You'll also feel that you have more control over your clubs, but not be as accurate or long. Same thing works in DG for roughly analgous reasons.

There is another consideration in how, somewhere between a full power shot and a touch approach shot, you will have to change grips, which causes consistancy problems. If you read Climo's grip section, you'll find one of the reasons that he uses a stacked grip is it adapts to a wide range of shots. I find the "flip the bird grip" to have the similar features for my game.

* I've tried everything and have come to the conclusion that my lack of distance is related to lack of strength or lack of fast twitch muscles. *

You might also try dropping a few grams off your discs. It's not like you get more points for throwing heavy plastic. The distance records tend to be set with mid high 160s, not the 170s that most folks throw. Throwing different weight discs will take a little learning (field practice) so it's also generally best to keep all of your driving and midrange in the same weight range. You can still putt with heavy discs, assuming the courses you play don't require you to learn how to putt around obstacles (aka use lighter weights occasionally on putting).

Always, Fred Chittenden, DDS

Paul, don't get fooled by the fan grip. It relies on a very strong thumb against the second knuckle of the middle finger. There is no such thing as a long throw with a weak grip at the snap.

Fred, how far can you throw?

Paul K.
I just heard that you've been banned from all Texas Tournaments.:}

http://pdga.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif

THANKS Kreke, I soon as I figure out the run-up that distance record is in trouble http://pdga.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif ..My-hero yes I got another Bud lite, http://pdga.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif but won't see you until the LOTS tourney.. I hope..PK you back in town yet??

yes, i've even banned myself from waco. i thought chris might be missing me while i'm on vacation so i got in a few quick jabs. i'm a little worried about him. without me to drink some of his beer and eat some pistaccio's he might over do it.

Fred, i do switch to a pinch/fork grip for my putters and roc's. after surgery this summer i exclusively field trained with the fork grip for several months. a problem i have even with a power grip is that i don't turn anything over, that can be a blessing in disguise. using a fork grip i don't flip anything. i will switch to that grip for big headwinds. i don't know if it's more successful because of a lesser spin or a more fluid release. both probably. i really wanted to switch to the fork grip for all of my drives but i'm consistently thorwing 30-40 feet less and less accurate. i didn't try it just one day. i've been playing five years and i used it the first year and often since. i am a technique nut but it's been frustrating that i've been able to work magic with everyone but myself.

dave, can you give an example of what you feel is the perfect amount of reach in the backswing? elbow and hand level. how straight at the elbow. body plane compared to flight line. example, ron russel stays very frontal to the target. brad hammock more with his back toward the target or is that a mirage and they are very similar at release.

thanks guys. i'm trying to be helpful to everyone, except you danny stacey. stay out of my country. darn okie!

Thanks Mr. Kreke. How is the shoulder doing? I hope you and your family had a wonderful Christmas. Well, rumor has it that Team Evil's reign of EVIL TERROR may have to come to an end after a short but successful three year relationship. Evil One and myself somehow managed to finish 12th, 7th, and 13th at the annual National Doubles tourney. Playing on the leader card with Stokely and Russell in 2000 was definately one of our most memorable times. Also smashing the entire field by two strokes, shooting a 48 on the OLD North Course during Houck's infamous 6/6/6 final round format in 1999. We also managed to tie the doubles course record set by Stokely and Russell at Veteran's Park, shooting a -15. Thanks for everything Evil One, and i hope it's just a rumor. You truly are My_HERO! jm

In my opinion the power grip is quite over rated.... I personally have never been able to get the hang of it. My fingers are just to long for it to feel comfortable in my hand......
I use what would be called a fan grip. this works great for me except when it is raining. then I switch to a sort of stacked grip.........
When trying to teach newer players I suggest that they grip how ever feels most comfortable in the hand and work from there.........

I have been able to throw very far within a year of playing, hence I was given the nickname "magilla". Lately due to a bad back I have lost a good 100 feet to my max distance but can still throw a hyser 400 with out thinking.
Dave has given some very good advice in this thread. my advise is to take what youve heard and go to a large field, not the golf course, and experiment with grips and footwork.
As with anything practice always helps.........

Magilla

Former California State Distance Champ - 578'

* how far can you throw? *

These days, on flat ground (soccer field), no wind, about 360 - 380 RHBH air with consistancy (aka, throwing from behind one goal to the opposite soccer goal, I'll be within 20 odd feet of the goal or in the goal over 50% of the time). Rollers run by or thru...

Which is about max range for most any 51 year old GrandMaster Pro that I've run into. Add up to 10 yards for every elevated tee yard. (Last year, I threw for over 200 yards at significantly elevated tees with favorable winds, not that this counts).

While I've never really considered myself a power player, that opinion seems to vary with those who know my game. On open holes in most any foursome of decent players with reasonably equal distance abilities, I'll have the longest tee shot (aka closest to the hole) about a third the time or more -- based on combined accuracy and distance...

In terms of grips --

Take off about 5 to 10 yards and add about 10 to 15 yards more "spray" for my power grip. I've basically abandoned it about 15 years ago after finding other grips that work better.

The fan grip might actually be my longest grip by a few yards, but I'm not quite as accurate with it -- perhaps with a bit more practice? It's relatively new to me. I've noticed that it does give slightly less spin to the disc which seems to translate into less fade at the end of the throw, hence more distance. It doesn't seem to be a good grip for control shots at shorter ranges.

The flip the bird (modified power grip - MPG) is my standard grip. The stacked grip (SG is Climo's grip) works about the same for me as the MPG, but not quite as far (a yard or two).

Basically, one just slides the middle finger down from the MPG to create the SG and visa versa.

I get slightly better flight plate control with the MGP than the SG, particularly at medium to short range. This could be finger size dependent - I've got medium size hands. Larger fingers might find things working differently.

I occasionally switch between the MPG and SG on the tee without thinking about it much. The SG might help when my hands are getting tired from
playing too many rounds.

Paul, I need more help than anyone.http://pdga.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif

Okies Rule!

One other key feature of a good accurate drive is keeping a straight line disc trajectory during the throw.

To see how this works, stand about a two discs distance from a wall. (Closer is better, but more hazardous). Practice a few 'shadow' throws (not full speed -- just to get the idea).

The proper throw path will have the disc not touch the wall during the shadow throw. The disc will remain about the same distance from the wall during the throw.

The thumb is at the leading front edge of the disc during most of the throw -- starting at the back stroke. (AKA NO COCKING THE WRIST) The disc path crosses just under the arm pit for a flat throw, close to the body.

When the disc nears the wrist at the end of the throw, the grip starts to move to the side edge of the line of the disc trajectory, giving the disc spin at release.

There are two common problems that one sees with players who aren't quite there.

First, the disc path is typically some variation of an arc or pendulum of the arm.

This creates all sorts of problems. Primarily, accuracy suffers because where the disc goes is related to where it's released on the arc, which is a split second, difficult to repeat, decision.

Also, the ideal release point for accuracy with an arched throwing pattern isn't at the end of the reach. This also means one doesn't reach one's full power, speed and distance potential.

The common workaround that many with a pendulum throw use is to throw with lots of hyzer (throw crosses the belly button or lower) and use a under stable disc. This hyzer throwing pattern moves the arc of the arm to more of a vertical pattern and makes it less critical where the release is going to be as far as horizontal accuracy goes. (assuming one has made a good disc choice).

What varies with this workaround is one creates a more vertical angle than horizontal angle to the arc during the throw. So one achieves a compromise of distance and accuracy. It's not a substitute for good technique, but better than nothing.

It's also a start towards getting the notion of a straight line delivery, although perhaps not the most direct path towards that goal.

Paul, I found your post in archives. I'll try to answer it, but there really isn't a blanket answer for everyone. Just like grips. As for reach back, the only reach back that counts is elbow reach back, and that should be only as far as you feel powerful starting from. Keep the disc as close to your body as you comfortably can. Generally keep your elbow in the throwing plane and bend it as much as you can before you accelerate the disc into the whip. If you're throwing hyzers your elbow will be lower than if you're throwing turover or rollers. I imagine you know all of this and are just missing a feeling in the end of the whip that you may have had before.

what happens to good throwers all the time is that they get caught up in foot placement, arm motion, body position, etc. and lose track of the most important focal point that determines all the rest. It's very hard to describe the focal point to someone who hasn't felt it but I'm sure you have. It's that quick pivot and rip disc movement/sensation that we use to time and aim our shots. That is where all of our energy is going; to power the pivot and rip of the disc out of our hands. My rip point is my index finger opposed by my thumb and backed by my middle finger. The rim of the disc forces its way out and off my index finger. Yours my differ. But everyone has a place from which the disc rips off and out. Refind it and focus on the feeling of the disc accelerating and ripping out and let that feeling guide everything that you do.

dave, can you explain more about the "elbow" in your reach back. i've read many articles saying you should try to extend your disc back as far as you can before your pull thru. is this not correct? this would cause your elbow to straighten out and bend thru the pull. are you saying keep it bent during the pull back? please explain. thanks for all your insight.

Most people concern themselves with getting to the whip/rip. They believe if they reach back farther or run up faster or try harder or swing their arm faster that it will automatically translate into a longer throw. Not true. Putting more power into a slower whip will not result in a longer throw. Just a more tired thrower. If instead you will concentrate your efforts into pulling through the whip/rip [created mainly by your elbow motion(large), wrist/finger motion(small but strong), and disc pivot motion], you will get much better results. This is presupposing that your disc is not slipping out, but ripping out.

Aaron, yes I am saying that is does not help to extend the elbow and disc backward only to drag it back to the body before then extending the elbow again. You are fighting centrifugal force that way. If instead, you keep the disc as close to your body as you can during your wind up with your shoulders, upper arm and elbow, you will have a centrifugal assist as you extend your elbow in time with your rotating shoulders.

Reading these posts are amazing, I can't wait until I get out on the course and the field to try some of the things mentioned. I have a question that I hope can get answered here. I can as of now only throw about 275 on a flat plane with no wind. I have a fairly small hand and fingers and I have callouses in the center of my palm, and on the upper inside part of my pinky. They're probably caused because I grip the disc really tight, and if so, is this a bad thing?

I tried for the whole lunch hour today to do what Dave says. I think I figured it out. - Throw with the elbow - !! If I figured it out correctly, there are two ways to throw a disc for D:

1. The arm-speed method. The more the arm speed, the farther the disc goes. Arm straight, don't worry about the elbow, maybe bend it a little, it doesn't matter. Forget about pulling the disc towards the chest, ignore everything Dave says, run up 20 feet, cross step and turn your whole body away from the pin, reach back a mile, grunt, snort, follow thru a mile, rip your arm out of its socket. This throw has tremendous velocity but fades quickly because the disc has no spin. Disc flies for 7 or 8 seconds and the distance depends on how far the disc travels in 7 or 8 seconds. If you throw the disc at 100 feet fer second initially, you might get 425 feet out of this method if you are very strong and have lots of fast twitch fibers. Most people get 350 feet. Not everybody can throw 100 feet per second (68 MPH). Tall people with long skinny arms excel with this method. I've worked all year to improve myself with this method with fairly good success. My absolute max is 400 on level ground. Sometimes I even hear newbies standing behind me say "Holy ����" when they see me throw this way. Sometimes.

2. Dave's way. Forget about a long runup, just set your wrist and hand real hard (GRIP) and reach your elbow around and back as far as it goes, (the reach back is with the elbow, not the disc!), walk up a little to get a little momentum to your whole body, get the disc to your chest while walking up and keep the reach back with your ELBOW as far back as it goes, and then EXPLODE by twisting the whole body like crazy at your hips and shoulders (RIP). The disc has low velocity but flies for 10 or 15 seconds because is has HUGE spin. The distance traveled is farther because it flies longer even though it doesn't have the huge velocity of the arm-speed method. With this method, your arm doesn not rip out of its socket, and it looks like you are not even throwing very hard. People who watch you will think you are superman or a sorcerer for throwing so far with so little visible effort. This method is good for 450 feet for a normal person who is not tall or strong. It's the method I have seen Brinster and Mitch use for 550 (600?) feet. However, they are mutants.

3. Combine the two ways. Good for 700 feet if you are Chris Voigt or Stokeley any other mutant.

At this point, with only one hour's practice, I can already throw Daves way as far as I could with the "arm-speed" way. One whole year of arm-speed technique out the window after one hour of Dave's way. Another advantage to Dave's way is, because the spin is so much greater it doesn't hook and fade as much. It goes straighter and therefore improves your accuracy and scores.

I think I figured out the trick, now all I have to do is practice it. Dave's way requires a whole new set of muscles, so if I practice Dave's method for a whole year and build up those muscles, I'll be rippin' 'em!!

THANKS DAVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You're welcome Morgan. And you will have a sore but for a while.
Pete, you only need to grip real tight as the disc wants to escape, and only with the area opposed to your thumb. Before that, you only need enough grip and tension to keep the disc oriented properly. The marks on your palm probably mean you are holding it too tight too soon.

I have been following this thread for a while now and it's easily the best that I've read. Just one quick clarification....

With "Dave's way" how does the x-step factor in? Is it still necessary, optional, or unwanted?

The x-step is not necessary, but it is very useful. I personally use a short form of the x-step. I stand in the position I want to throw in about 3 or 4 feet from the front of the tee, rock my weight from left foot to right, then a quick left and a gliding right. The rhythm of the steps is easily as important as the position of the steps.

I agree with Morgan's last post. I stopped on the way home yesterday to try and put together what I am learning on this thread. I only had a 1/2 hour of sunlight, but I was throwing just as far, if not farther, than I normally do AND my discs were all going STRAIGHT without nearly as much fade. I also discovered why people use a power grip, as my normal 3-finger grip did not suffice for holding onto the disc long enough. I also threw my ROC better than I ever have. I can't thank Dave Dunipace enough for all of the insight. I have been very frustrated the last year or so because my game was not improving.

WAHOOO! My boss just came by and said I could leave early! Off to the course to try out the new form!

Oh yeah, I am not sore from yesterday at all. I usually feel a little soreness after a practice session on the field.

* I have callouses in the center of my palm, and on the upper inside part of my pinky. They're probably caused because I grip the disc really tight, and if so, is this a bad thing? *

Assuming the callous is from DG and not from your day job, there is something that could be adjusted in your throw to improve things.

The disc doesn't have to be gripped that hard to get a good long accurate throw.

If anything, the typical finger to get the most work is the index finger, not the pinky.

I'd suggest that you try a few alternate grips with some field practice.

There is throwing a disc in a straight line, for distances beyond what a player has been able to achieve.

There is throwing a disc for distances beyond what a player has been able to achieve.

There are many different levels of learning in the course of achieving distance.

If you are a person that wants to achieve more distance...pure, unadulterated, more distance...then pay attention to what is stopping your disc. If your disc is stopping because it has run out of gas and is falling to the ground...work on the x-step, leading with the hips while reaching back, and all of Dave's great tips.

If your disc is stopping because it is hitting the ground while still moving forward (this is the case with most people that know how to throw and do achieve some success with distance...many times alot of distance), then you need more air. There are few people that I watch throw for distance that are getting the full benefit of what they already know how to do...simply because they do not give the disc the space and time to complete it's flight.

I know it's simplified and sounds silly...but I would encourage anyone that wants to experience more distance to go to an open area and start crushing high Anhyzer. Start out allowing NO fade whatsoever on your throws. The disc has to hit the ground on the Anhyzer turn. If you're successful...pat yourself on the back. You're on your way to a crushing roller with max distance drivers instead of slow turnover discs.

Begin working from there, refusing to allow any fade...go higher with your trajectory...turn the <FONT COLOR="ff0000">������</FONT> over and...at some point you will get the full Anhyzer flight occuring in the air...now the disc will fade after it is done with the full Anyzer crush and it will fade forward into more distance. Hopefully, the disc will hit the ground because it is simply finished going forward. If this isn't the case...you need more air. If the disc is fading while it is too high in the air...you need more Anhyzer. More Annie. More air. I guarantee you will have more distance. All that for $19.99! If not fully satisfied...you need to throw more Annie with more air.

Great. The last thing we need from Wimm is more air.

I bet all the top pros are reading this board and saying, "Look at all these newbies like David Gentry and Morgan Wright and Danny Schrider, just finding out for the first time about throwing with the elbow. Dave's been telling us the same old thing since he invented golf plastic 20 years ago. Ho hum. Yawn."

Well, I can tell you, of all the people I meet on the courses only about 5% throw with the advice that Dave gives. The other 95% try to strong-arm it and grunt. Of the 95% who try to strong-arm it, only 25% actually have strong arms. They weak-arm it!! They really could use Dave's advice.

Me, I'm glad to be among the elite 5% who have learned from Dave and know about Dave's "throw with the elbow" technique. It will improve my scores.

Randy, something you didn't mention about the anhyzer throw is the importance of getting the nose down. The nose down will delay fade and keep the speed up. It's the combination of altitude and nose down that makes the anhyzer distance shot so effective.

Hi Dave. I didn't mention anything concerning technique and the Annie. That's your job. I work with players to get the Annie 25' to 35' (most of them aren't Voight-like) off the ground while aiming 45 degrees off target. I want to force them to commit to the turnover during delivery. Delivery is taking place head high (like a power 360).

I believe what I'm calling turnover during delivery (caused by a number of factors) is getting the nose down but it is a difficult expression for someone to understand when they are crushing a disc in a right turn, 30' off the ground, NOSE DOWN!

I know what you mean but give us more insight.

Morgan, as a point of clarification, I was not talking about distance driving when I was telling you that you might have to be satisfied with 400 or so feet consistently. I was talking about line drive, no wind distance. Randy is talking about distance driving which is a different story involving angles of release, wind vectors, disc lift, characterists, weight etc. You will be able to throw as much as 100 to 200 feet farther under the right circumstances using the technique Randy is describing. I was describing ways to get more energy, more efficiently, into the disc. Randy is describing a way to throw farther with the same energy in a more efficient flight path.

great posts guys. seeing people being excited is inspiring, too bad it's freezing outside. yes Chris, still in STL. Danny, you better not have the Okie patrol out for me when I travel back through.

Dave, your input has been fantastic. We've come close to carding together the last two National Doubles. Maybe next year.

Before anyone wastes a lot of time trying to leap frog good foundational distance skills in search of an ellusive couple extra annie yards, annie skills are something that one builds on after you've solidly nailed down good straight line distance skills.

It just requires a few minor modifications of the good line drive technique that has been described here by Dave and others to get a good annie.

For me, (with a 167 Firebird) a chin high delivery with the front shoulder pointed slightly down, aiming about 12 yards left and perhaps 5 yards into the dirt at 100 yards works to get about 120 yards in windless conditions. The "spot" and ideal technique adjustment varies greatly from disc to disc and wind condition to wind condition.

The important part to know about an annie is that if you screw up using it where it shouldn't be used, misinterpret wind conditions, pick the wrong disc, etc, you are likely to sacrifice at least one, if not more, strokes over simpler more reliable straight line shots. Good Golf is generally more about consistant distance and accuracy than inconsistant/illusive long distance.

For every one time that an annie (or the opposite high/low hyzer) MIGHT help your game, there are many more times where you will NEED good reliable straight line distance skills. Don't get me wrong, I've used the annie to win more than one event or round, but it's generally not the shot that got me in the position to win.

Also, the annie is not really just one shot. Rather it is one member of a full range of power skills that are best learned to reasonable perfection and reliability on the practice field, with a variety of discs and wind conditions, before being tossed into one's game on the course. When one feels ready to incorporate the annie (or any other power skills) into one's golf game, one should be willing to sacrifice a couple rounds of play.

When you feel you've mastered the annie on the field, my suggestion is to pick your favorite annie disc and a midrange/putter and play a couple rounds with just those two discs. Because the typical annie disc is also very overstable, out of necessity to make a straight line shot, or whatever, you'll quickly learn how to make your technique work for you and where the annie will or won't work and where it can and can't replace other shots. Aka, where are the limits...

Basically, you'll come to be able to solidly know when and where to use it by the end of a couple rounds, rather than spreading the pain of learning over a couple months of inconsistant frustrating play.

Aka, if you carry your regular bag of discs while trying to raise the level of your game to the next level, you'll never be forced to learn the full spectrum of shots that an annie (or any other new shots and/or discs) might afford you. Instead, you'll be using lots of discs with narrow skills, not broad based skills, as the foundation of your game.

Broad based, well rounded, well understood skills are the foundation of most every winner, more than pure distance, more than a large bag of discs. More than any particular ellusive distance shot...

Thank you everyone who has been contributing to this string (Thanks Dave, and Morgan, great clarification on the two different methods of throwing). I had been struggling with the arm speed method and killing my shoulder (torn deltoid muscles from Ultimate didn�t help) trying to increase on my average 380. I was determined to rebuild my toss and the advise that I�ve gotten from y�all has helped immensely. I agree with Morgan that most people don�t know about this method and someone should really put together a good description of it (including visuals) on the PDGA site.

I do have a couple questions for Dave:
How far should one extend the elbow (upper arm directly out sideways from the body or less)?
Should one wait until the elbow is fully extended before uncurling the forearm, or should this start while the elbow is still moving forward?
Is the forearm movement passive (like the wrist) or active like the elbow?

Thanks so much for the tips, and here�s one of my own.
While practicing on a field can be very beneficial, shagging all the discs takes time. Alternatively, I have started throwing into hammer cages (often located at University track fields). While one can�t see the whole flight of the disc, the nets are big enough to that one can safely throw from a moderate distance. I also use old discs as this can slightly warp the plastic (not by hitting the net, but the poles behind it). This way I can get in about 75 throws in a half an hour (alternate forehand (sorry, sidearm) and backhand to avoid injury and soreness).
-jv

Thanks for the clarification Dave. Ultimate distance throwing is rarely used in disc golf. (Voight has said he rarely uses it during a game)

At the same time...we were playing wolf today with Trevor Lawhead (a major annie crusher). An up and coming Am player was playing with Trevor for the first time. This Am player is very good and throws over 400'. Trevor was busting some big annies off the tees (wolf is a little more free-wheeling than playing singles...there is alot of room for taking risks). The Am player was trying to do the same because he was seeing distance that was unattainable with the accomplished golf shot. He hasn't ever practiced the shot.

My posts on this thread are simply to encourage players to add it to their arsenal. It is the easiest way to add distance. Like most shots, it is limited by the elements of nature. Not a good shot in a strong head-wind. Not a good shot in a wind that is crossing over the top of the disc. But if you are faced with a 500' shot...in a clearing...and you have a tail crosswind (even some head crosswind) that will be under the bottom of the disc thrown with annie...you will never be able to throw a disc with a flat or hyzer flight plane as far as the annie in that situation.

I also think that if a player practices throwing annies for ultimate distance, they will be amazed at how good it feels to throw a disc while their body is opening up and their arm isn't confined against their body. The feeling of freedom that comes with the opening of the body can be translated to many of the techniques that Dave is describing.

Putting is more important than any of it. Throwing in a straight line as far as possible is next on the list. But if you feel like you are in a straight-jacket when you attempt to throw a long drive...go practice throwing big right turns that are over 20' in the air.

Good post Randy. Joe I'll try to answer your question, though I'm not sure I understand it completely. Your elbow should be as high as you can comfortably hold it. I try to hold the disc under my left ear and my elbow straight out in front of my body as far as I can without feeling strained. Nothing is passive. The spin of the hips, shoulders and upper arm create a centrifugal force to aid the active extension of the elbow which accelerates the disc into the spring (active) of the wrist and fingers. The arm and shoulders continue with as much force as possible to pull thtough the snap as the disc is ripping out of your fingers. There is a slight forward motion of the wrist into an abrupt stop which begins the pivot and rip of the disc from the fingers. The stop of the wrist is the beginning of the snap which must be finished by pulling through it as hard as you can.

By Morgan Wright on Friday, December 28, 2001 - 09:25 pm:


I bet all the top pros are reading this board and saying, "Look at all these newbies like David Gentry and Morgan Wright and Danny Schrider, just finding out for the first time about throwing with the elbow. Dave's been telling us the same old thing since he invented golf plastic 20 years ago. Ho hum. Yawn."

As a "top pro", maybe just a donating pro, I have been baffled by some of the distances put up by other people. I have been doing the straight reach back as far back as I can remember, and have been one of the longer arms in Iowa for a few years. Apparently there is a reason the Iowa distance record is 431 feet, and I don't have it. Thanks for all of the advice guys. This is one old dog looking for some new tricks. Shut up dud, that's really not funny.

Ive been hearing it and watching it in disbelief for years. No matter what I do , or more appropriately put , no matter what I try to do, I can still throw 370 with an occasional assault toward 390. I love long downhill shots.I can't jump either , but I build a mean disc golf course!
There are so many folks here , and many of them "newbies", who can outthrow me that it tests my limits of good humor. After 25 years of this I have just about conceded that you can't teach this old dog new distance tricks ...breathe deeply and exhale slowly...it's all good !!!!

Clue, are you sure the record's only 431 ft.? Harper can line drive that far. I'm positive, under the right conditions he could throw well over 500 ft.

The worst is when you show a guy how to throw who's never seen golf discs before, and his 3rd throw is farther than any of yours. This happened to me!! Guy threw 375 feet with the 3rd throw of his life! He said he was a quarterback on a college football team. Black dude about 6 foot 4, never saw him again after that.

Beleive it or not Dave, Jeff doesn't hold the record. Probably because the distance competitions are held as part of State Overalls.
BTW, Dave you are the only person I have ever seen who could consistantly outdrive Jeff. And you made it look so easy.

Suzette, you must have caught me on a good day. I've seen you throw too, and I know we could get you up to 350 accurately and consistently, in no time. Tita is now throwing consistently much farther than when you saw her last summer. I think you would be amazed. For you and Stan and the others out there I will restate what I have said before: The most important element in learning is imagining that you can.

Clue, if your "straight reach back" method is the tops in Iowa at only 431 feet, then you need to invite somebody out there to show you guys "Dave's way." I can't do it myself yet, but there are guys out here who can throw well over 431 without blinking, and they throw the way Dave talks about, *with the elbow* Nobody out here who does the "straight reach back" can throw anywhere near that far on level ground.

Morgan...it is great that you are finding good advise and I hope you have success translating it to your game. But...

Your references as to what you see seem limited. First off, there are many successful modes of operandi when it comes to throwing a disc.

Hopefully, you've had the oportunity to see Climo and Stokely on the same card. It's like watching two different sports. I think you and I would take either players disc golf careers.

Clayton Bethman has one of the most extreme "straight reach backs" I have seen. He throws for mutated distance. His gigantic throw at Veterans on hole 12 has been discussed a few times on the board. Straight reach back like there's no tomorrow.

John Maiuro doesn't do anything when he drives. He was a tournament Foosball player. His disc simply won't stop flying. Fits into Dave's category but he definitely uses an x-step with great weight transfer. (I taught him some of it...toot-toot)

Sammy Grizaffi was one of the longest throwers in the World. 5'7" 360 degree exploding bomb with a snap that sounded like a bat hitting a baseball. Sammy threw with a fan grip, index finger on the outer rim. Same grip for every shot. Good putter too. Lost to Climo by one stroke at Worlds.

It is much like putting. There are styles that will translate to some peoples minds and bodies that won't work with others.

I will add another item concerning all the throws. It's Frizbee. It should feel good and portray some semblence of freedom. Relaxation, looseness, fluidity, solid foot-work, balance and a feel for the wind.

But a person can be tense, tight, awkward, tripping over their feet, unable to walk backwards heel to toe (Sammy Grizaffi is unable to do this without falling over) and throw with total disregard to the wind...and still throw with more distance than the first person. There are that many variables.

Dave, you are right about Jeff Harper. He probably throws a roc on a hyzer line as far as anyone in the world. The problem is that he doesn't throw anything farther than that. Bob Kramer held the record for years at something like 404 and a few years ago Rodney Gardner threw 425 only to lose it 5 minutes later to the 431 by Dev Nelson (I think that's his name). Jeff Harper has not participated in the contest as far as I know for the last 7 years.

That is why he doesn't have the record or he refuses to throw high turnover. He has the speed.

Hey Stan,
I'll trade you 100' of my drive for a 1/10 of your overall game. How about it?

no kidding Randy, the first time I ever saw Sammy throw my jaw hit the ground. i've never seen him play since. that was the definition of acceleration. john, you need to come to the next round rock club championship's at Berlind's ranch. we've got some bad foos ball players.

Stan, still no sighting of Eric Marx in your part of the country?

I played in the 95 Worlds with Sam Grizzaffi and Matt Frank in the same group. We started on an uphill hole on Berry's Treasure (I think 5) and I threw a solid 375 up the hill in the middle of the fairway. It was about a 460' hole dead uphill and the pin was up and over a rise to the left, still blind from my lie. Well, Grizzaffi unleashed a BOMB that was probably 35 feet up in the air when it passed my lie hyzering right over the ridge, and parked, a ten footer! i thought and said aloud, "what PLANET are you from?!" Then Matty stands up and pounds the same shot up there, but only 35 short. He said when it left his hand that it was "a little weak"

Getting back to the pure distance throw, how does one accomplish both nose down, and an upward attitude? Is the wrist turned differently than a flat level throw?
I haven't consciously tried the "elbow, not disc back" method, but have noticed good results when it "just happens" that way. When I make an effort to reach straight back, I often turn over the disc more than intended. Is this normal?

Thanks for the offer , I would probably trade 1/10th of my game for 100'. I can't imagine throwing over 400'. I can tell you that my ego would love to brag about being able to throw over 450'. I have been trying to do what Dave is writing about. I bet I look funnier than ever. You know how hard it is to hit a fairway when your mind is thinking thoughts like "is my elbow bent ?" or "don't reach back too far" or "pinch tight and let it rip out of your grip". The next word out of my mouth is "FORE !!"

As for Eric Marx, he called me to let me know he was going to move here to NC , but I have heard nothing from him since that call , nor have I heard of any Eric sightings. I think he was thinking of moving to the Asheville area which is only about 2 hours from Charlotte. Perhaps we will see him this year.

Ha! The image of Stan McDaniel confusing himself with technique cracks me up. http://pdga.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif

Meat...I'm leaving it to Dave to talk about the nose down thing. It's a pretty funny image also.

I would say that if you make an effort to reach farther back...or gain more arm speed...or get better use from the entire body...or just about anything that is going to add power to your throw--there is a good chance you will turn the disc over because of the added power. Also, the harder a person tries to throw, the more they want to turn their wrist over (hold on longer).

That stands to reason...so does one compensate, say concentrate on keeping the wrist down, or is this a sign of trying TOO hard? On said throws, I often do a 360 AFTER release.

Meat, yes you want to keep your wrist down to keep the disc from fluttering (off axis torque) as it rips out. How you get height and nose down is by changing the position of the nose. You throw the nose about 30 to 45 degrees left, 15 to 30 feet high, with a right bank (anhyzer). As the disc turns to the right, the right side of the disc becomes the nose and flys nose down and glides downhill in a left to right trajectory. As the disc runs out of speed it will then automatically bank to the left when the left edge becomes the nose and continues downfield nose down right to left. Review Randy's post, he described it well.

Eric called me a couple days after Christmas and said he has been playing a little lately. Hopefully he will go to a tourney next year, if not worlds maybe the USDGC.

I have been trying the 'elbow' technique in my yard and found exactly what Morgan says, same distance as I was getting before, but with a lot less effort. Found one drawback to it, tho. The incredible amount of spin I now have on the disc causes it to ricochet much further off the trees that I hit, rather than just kinda fluttering to the ground. Unfortunately, I found this out the hard way yesterday, when I griplocked, hit a tree and bounced about 45 feet straight right.....right into my daughter's bedroom window. Luckily for her, the window was closed and it only shattered the glass http://pdga.com/discus/clipart/sad.gif

I guess the accuracy part needs a little fine-tuning http://pdga.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif

I'd call that a black ace.

The weather out here doesn't look promicing for a few days, but I'll be sure and work on the advice given here ASAP....

I tried the "elbow back" technique for 45 minutes today and have a few questions. When you reach back with your elbow, is your arm supposed to be curled around the disc? Your arm forms a sort of spiral around the disc. Also, it tended to have more anhyzer, but the disc didn't turn over and roll. It finished it's flight. With the "straight arm" technique I throw about 300. With the "elbow back" technique I was throwing 330 with less effort than with the "straight arm". I can't wait to try it with my Rocs.

A 10% improvement in ONE day?!?

I find that I still need to do the runup and cross step. Just plain straight elbow isn't enough, you need arm speed too. If I try without a cross step and runup, it's not even going 300 feet. I was using Steve Brinster as an example of Dave's technique thinking he didn't runup or cross step very much, but that isn't true. There is video of Brinster throwing a bomb in the 2001 World's video, and he runs up a lot and faces all the way back like in the straight arm technique, and curls his elbow back the way Dave talks about, but ALSO does a straight arm reach back and he crushes one hole called "Airway To Heaven" in the video.

In the 2001 Worlds video, after the main part of the video is over they show a bunch of clips. Houck and Stork are saying good bye, so long, fair thee well, gotta go, hasta manana, etc, and then the video fades out and the next scene is a tee sign for Oakwood hole 15 "Airway to Heaven" hole, and it shows 3 people making their tee shots on that hole. The first one is a woman who throws it down and low, the next one is a guy with a blue hat who plays it almost to the woods, and the 3rd person is Steve Brinster who sends a monster throw high over the trees. He's wearing a shirt that has the insignia that says OE or QE on the back, well, you can see that he threw it twice as far as the other two people, but there was a whooole lot of runup and reach back and cross step. I wonder if he got it over the trees.

So, to get the really big D you do what Dave says AND a runup and cross step!!

Dave, I finally got to try "it" out yesterday. So what if the windchill was below zero, I had on four layers of clothes, my babushka head wear and my snow boots. Results: Standing still with no run up, I was able to throw just as far as with a run up. I lost a bit of accuracy, but I can see the potential.

I believe I was getting most of the distance from my hips, not from my elbow. I found if I tried thinking of "The Whip", with my hips turning first, then my ribcage, then elbow, It went far with hardly any effort.

At Worlds this year, you told me to hold my wrist tight throughout the entire throw. I can't seem to hold it tight. When I reach back, up near ear, it automatically cocks. Should I leave it cocked all the way through, or try not to **** it at all?

I am squeezing the snot out of the disc, but still no snap sound. Just the pain of my flesh being scraped off by the disc. I am sure the cold didn't help. I use a power grip with
my thumb pressing just below knuckle on my index finger. Do I have to change my grip to get "the snap"?
Next, I have to figure out how to do a run-up and still get my hips to do the funky turn thing...any suggestions?

first off i'd just like to say thanks to all who've posted info on this. although i haven't been able to try it out yet, i'm looking forwards to giving it a shot and hopefully adding some drive distance or at least keeping the same D with less effort and more accuracy.

i do have a question about how this will effect the amount of spin. when reading a different thread covering the gyroscopic effect i concentrated on adding more spin to the disc and i went from turning over eagles to throwing understable discs dead straight. i would adjust the amount of wrist **** in order to get the flight path i wanted, less spin for turnovers, more spin for straight drives. i have realized that i was achieving the more spin by cocking my wrist a LOT with the disc touching my forearm. i was also having to loosen up a bit on my grip in order to keep my arm loose enough to get a lot of snap. these adjustments brought me from a consistent 340' to a consistent 380' but i also realize i'm probably not getting the tendon bounce dave has referred to. am i correct in assuming this? i'm mainly curious if this will get more or less spin than my current motion so i can adjust my throw and disc selection accordingly right off the bat. if anyone could share from their experiences if this makes the disc fly more or less overstable or if it has remained the same it would be very helpful.

i'm also curious with how the "disc under the ear" elbow placement effects the ability of a player to adjust the amount of hyzer/anhyzer angle on the disc. i have to drop my front shoulder in order to throw a hyzer that flattens and i'm having trouble conceptualizing the reach with the elbow high and still getting a hyzer angle. i might be a special case since i have very small hands and tight tendons which tend to limit the number of available positions i can contort my wrist into while still holding a disc. any tips would be much appreciated.

just for the record i use a technique similar to the ones described when throwing putters off the tee it just seems hard for me to conceptialize getting distance with a driver that way.

to suzette:
i'm by no means an expert but a couple of tips i could give are...
while using an x-step, focus on the last step with the left foot and use it to push into the hip-swivel while you plant your right foot. i found while i was learning this it helped to slow down and shorten up the steps. while i was experimenting with it i went from using 6' of teepad to 3' of teepad and my steps were VERY slow. with time i was able to lengthen the steps a bit (i still don't use as much pad as i used to) and speed it up a bit to get faster upper body rotation. hope this could be of some help

blake t.

I will try to answer one at a time. First, I never said the cross step wasn't very useful. It is and I do it. I also tend to approach at a 45 degree angle from right to left, which often doesn't leave much space. With more room, I might take three steps or even four. I try to take as few step as possible because uphill tees screw with my rhythm, uneven tees screw with my rhythm, slippery tees screw with my rhythm, etc. I'm just like all of you, I need momentum. But the run up really doesn't get much momentum in a physical sense. It mainly gives momentum in rhythm and psych up sense which is also necessary. On particularly bad tees, I can stand on the front of the tee and throw 300-330ft without moving my feet at all. I still have to shift weight, psych up, and feel the power and rhythm of the snap. Also, my elbow isn't bent past 90 degrees because I start to loose the feel of the shot. It's not the exact amount of elbow bend per se that counts, it's the speed, power, and rhythm of the unbend that counts most.

I have to repost this next as I seem to have lost it somewhere in the ether of the net.

The most important part of any throw is the 'hit'. It is a collective term referring to the rhythm, orientation, placement, power, and feel of the disc ripping out of your grip. Everything else is done to accomodate the hit.

All of the questions you ask me, you could probably answer yourself by asking yourself questions like "Does the hit feel quick powerful, oriented, and properly directed?" If the answer is no to any of those questions, find out why. What can you do to better accomodate the hit? Better starting mechanics, better finishing mechanics, better grip mechanics, more compact hit, better foot placement, better shoes, better pivot, better arm position, better focus on the hit, etc. The two most important places to look first would be directly before and after the hit. That is assuming you have the sharp rhythm of the hit first.

Suzette the Viking out in the cold. Are you crazy? Hand warmers or neoprene sports gloves will help to prevent the pain of throwing in the cold.

As to your question which pertains to the front (injection side)of the hit. Keep your wrist cocked down, but not curled back. Your wrist should be more or less in a hand shaking position but cocked down. You should only be using enough tension in your wrist and fingers to maintain the orientation of the hit. Just before the hit starts, the wrist will wag back slightly, then go forward to an abrupt, steely stop, which begins the pivot and rip out of the disc. This by no means is to indicate that your arm stops just because your elbow and wrist motion stop. This is the START of the hit. To finish, you must continue to pull through the back side (ejection)of the hit with as much power as you need to get the disc to the destination you want. On the injection side of the hit you want compressed acceleration. On the ejection side you want power.

To get more acceleration into the hit. Look for ways to move the disc more quickly in a shorter amount of time into the hit. This is where the elbow motion comes into play. In my opinion, it is much easier and more efficient to start with the disc close to the body. It is not necessary. It is just more efficient. If in doing this, you lose the feeling of momentum, power, and rhythm it won't do you much good. But if you incorporate it into the rest of your throw, it will do a ton of good.

Blake, for hyzers bend at the waist. For turnovers and rollers with stable discs, arch your back. Some people have trouble arching their back, so your can stand staight, lift you arm up to your face and use turning discs also. The higher your arm is, the more your can use your powerful lat muscles along with your traps.

Also, everyone but rank beginners uses the tendon bounce to some degree. I use it as much as I can.

Spin maintains the orientation of the disc. The more spin, the more that spin will resist changing the orientation of the disc in flight.

Thank you, oh wise one.

The above post is your best yet Mr. D, or should that be ..............Dr. D?

BTW, I do use a handwarmer, but no glove on the throwing hand.

Thank you Suzette for being part of my good disc golf memories of 2001. I'm now going to La Mirada to play in 65 degree weather.http://pdga.com/discus/clipart/proud.gif

I'm really asking for trouble here...but honesty is the best policy. Or at least it should be!

One of my favorite things is watching the women play. I know what we're thinking...but the reason is because most of the women learn to throw very straight and with good technique. I think it is cool to watch the fluidity and grace that is demonstrated in their throws.

But when it comes to fun distance or weapon distance, I'm usually thinking the same thing while watching. The need to open the body up and throw with some wild abandonment. It seems that the same styles are used whether throwing a 300' tunnel shot or a wide open 500' shot. (Of course there are many guys that do the same thing)

There are very few instances where I've seen women throw the big annie. I've told the story of when I played a round in a handi-cap mini at the big Round Rock course. A girl on my card was throwing with very good power and complaining because the disc was turning over. I told her that she was throwing great but didn't know it. I told her to aim way left...I would usually point out her line off the tee...and throw the same shots she was doing but with even more power. I told her to give the disc more height so it wouldn't run into the ground on it's right turn. She promptly went on to destroy the field that day, shooting a nine down with her handicap on a huge driving course.

I know I'm being redundant, but I believe the air annie should be one the most important shots for an advanced woman player to develop.

Dave knows I am not in conflict with his advice. We are talking about two different things (alot of his advice definitely translates into the air annie shot). Listen to his advice first...but be sure and bust a few sky annies while practicing...if nothing else it will feel good to let a few go without having to think about anything other than throwing the snot out of the disc and giving it the space it needs to work it's magic.

Annie in delivery. The disc turns over BEFORE it leaves the hand. I wanted to cover one piece of technique (the nose down issue). I don't care what a person does with the disc while reaching back. If you have it pointed down (hyzer delivery) and commit to it leaving your hand with annie...you will discover a wrist snap that exceeds any you have experienced. But...such torque can also be painful. Don't over do it!

You said to bend at the waist to throw hyzer? When I did this I threw the disc into the ground. Should I lean back a bit, or what?

thanks dave.
looks like i'll have less adjustment to do than i previously thought. when i drop my front shoulder to throw a hyzer i also bend at the waist, i guess i was just thinking about it differently. i will, however, try to pull from higher and take advantage of the stronger muscle groups.

i'll also try focusing on the tendon bounce vs. generating spin with greater wrist ****. sounds like it's done the trick for many. i guess i'll find out with some experimenting whether or not this yields more or less spin.

thanks again,

blake t.

Esteemed Mr. Wimm.... I can and do throw big crushing annies on big, wide open holes. But here in Minnesota and the Midwest, we have these things called forests. When you gotta get the D, but go fairly straight, or make sharp left turns, you need something different. Your advice is good, but I can't do that all the time.

Dave, oh wise one... I went out again today. I tried to throw with my usual run-up and style. The only thing I really changed was the way I held my wrist. I held my wrist down like you said. It automatically made me change my grip a bit. But it also made me push down harder on the disc with my thumb. It also prevented me from bending my elbow past 90 degrees. I actually snapped the disc!!! The results were still erratic, but I did get more distance on the ones that didn't smack into trees. Thank-you, thank-you, thank-you.

Do you feel like Dear Abbey?

Jedidiah, generally your lower arm should dictate the angle of your disc. In order for you to throw your disc on a hyzer from high on your chest, you would need to bend at the waist. The only way you could hit the ground would be to drop the disc instead of rip it. Never lean back to throw hyzer.

Blessed Suzette,
If you are crushing annies in the open...then you are agreeing with me. Happy New Year!

Blake, the tendon bounce can only be accomplished by the sudden, abrupt stop of the wrist motion. The combination of the elbow motion and small wrist motion is sufficient to bounce the disc out and have it rip off your fingers as long as you don't let it slip out.

Randy, we always teach our beginners to throw anhyzer as it help the disc to carry farther and makes it a lot more fun for them while they are learning to get more power. My favorite high anhyzer hole is in your neck of the woods. Round Rock number ten of year before last numbering system. It's a long dogleg downhill right after the sand pit hole coming away from the dam. They were changed last year. Anyway, both my partners Sam and Rob have come close to acing that hole with that shot.

Suzette, you're welcome. I just wish I could see you and the others when the magic happens.

Dave, I feel the same way about beginners and old hole ten at Round Rock was one of the best.

Once again I have to say that Suzette is the coolest chick (and I don't use that word with ANY disrespect whatsoever) on the planet. She loves DG, isn't too adverse to porn, and used the word **** twice in one post http://pdga.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif

BTW, I went out again yesterday and worked on this technique some more. Found that the high annie that Randy talks about works great when I feel the 'hit'. I also tried some forehands, but with more concentration on the elbow/wrist timing and seemed like I added D there too, but only if I extend my backswing a little. I haven't been able to get into a wide open field to see the exact change in distance, but I think it will be monumental.

As an added bonus, I didn't break any windows this time, so I guess the accuracy is coming around as well.

Happy New Year everyone!

The most important thing about getting big D is health and fitness. I was drinking like a fish early this summer and was drunk every night, hung over every day. I couldn't throw over 330 feet during that time. I had the ambition but the muscles just were not there. Then in October I quit drinking and couldn't believe how strong I was again, I was throwing 400 on level ground and sent many 450 to 550 footers down hills (17 Warwick and one went 590 at Buffomville Dam down a long steep hill). Then in December I was drinking again and the muscles are weak again. Gotta stop again.

Top level athletes don't drink at all. Not a drop. Alcohol robs you of your strength. How far do you think Mohammad Ali would have gotten if he drank every night? What about marathon runners, how far would they get? Nowhere!

Morgan, distance secret #14 is WATER. Water is power. Before you play each round, drink at least one quart of water. Even when I drink beer, I drink an equal or greater amount of water at the same time. Lotsa pee, but lotsa power.

Master,

Are we up to #14 already, oh wise man? What happened to 9 through 13? I don't want to advance to 14 until I have perfected myself with 13.

Grasshopper

Frank Shorter drank 2 QUARTS of warm German beer the night before winning the Olympic Marathon; I think he qualifys as a "top level" athlete....

He was just that much better than everybody else at the time...

Paul Hourning &amp; Mickey Mantle also come to mind as exceptions, but it's still scary to think how much better they could have been.

Great thread! I finally figured out my MRV. Thanks for the advice, Randy!

Have another beer.

http://pdga.com/discus/clipart/smile.gifway ahead of ya...

Dave said "Before you play each round, drink at least one quart of water"

I hope you check to make sure the bathrooms are unlocked. Not every course has woods, you know.

Thanks again Dave for the advice. I went out again yesterday. I can finally make the disc whiz and snap out of my hands.

All I had to do was hold my wrist down like you said. I used to grip the disc with my thumb barely on the rim, and it was very unnatural to put the wrist down. When I would try to squeeze the disc tighter, I was just making a tighter fist. Now, I have moved my thumb over on top of the disc and the wrist naturally bends down. All I have to do is push my thumb down to get a tighter grip on the disc. Who knew that by just moving my thumb that I could increase the distance. I also used to let go of the disc, now I let it rip from my grasp and feel the snap.

Yesterday, I was throwing farther than I ever could in the summer. (With all the extra winter gear, and hazardous footing, I usually loose 25 to 50 feet in the winter). On one hole, I have never reached the tree near the pin, not even with tail winds or my farthest flying plastic. Yesterday, almost all my drives went past the tree. Even discs I don't consider using for big distance. I didn't have great accuracy, but I can work on that now that I know what "The Hit" feels like.

One last question: Can you tell me how to heel the painful blister/callous that is forming on my index finger from the disc ripping out of my hand?

Keep it up, it will form a good callous....until then, it will blister a bit. Its not pretty on a mans hand, let alone a woman.....but its the mark of a good golfer!!! http://pdga.com/discus/clipart/proud.gif

Suzette, I'm very happy for you. Believe me, not everyone gets it. As for the blister, as Cong-TX says, it will eventually form a callous. Until then, there is Tough Skin and tape. Tough Skin is a product you can buy in sporting goods stores. Sports tape works well too.

callous is an adjective.
callus is a noun.

same with mucous/mucus

I'm not usually a spelling narc, but 3 people in a row got it wrong so I had to step in.

Thank you Morgan.http://pdga.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif

I didn't get to practice the "elbow, not disc back" method as planned, but did try it several times today in a casual round...with mixed results. It messed with my timing, but that needs work anyways. After a bit of compensating for what seemed to be a higher tendency to turn over, I threw a drive on #12 @ Eldo that was as far as any I've thrown there.
Not exactly auspicious, but the potential for improvement is apparent. And for my brain, it's easier to "think" the elbow back than the disc.

Hey Morgan....BYTE ME!! http://pdga.com/discus/clipart/proud.gif

Guess thats what I get for just reading here, and spelling the word out of the blue. Cant say I have EVER spelled/written/typed it before yesterday......and I was using faith in Suzette.
http://pdga.com/discus/clipart/sad.gif

I suppose there are worse things to trust.......

Hey, the spellchecker didn't cache my mistake.

Probabely wasn't in it's dictionery.

I need one more clarification on the grip. When applying pressure with the thumb on top of the disc, should the pinch come from the tip of the thumb or the knuckle of the thumb?
Thanks again for all the advise.

Randy, the possessive for it is its, it's how you spell it, it's means it is and its means its.

Danny, no set answer, but your thumb does get stronger toward the base because of more leverage. I personally press under the knuckle,but you should experiment to find out what works best for you as far as grip strength, comfort, feel, and the ability for you to hold the disc level through the snap.

My scores are going up. At Kaposia yesterday I shot 11, compared with 3 a few weeks ago. Maybe distance is overrated. If I'm not accurate, it doesn't mean a whole lot. Guess I need a lot more practice, and a few less beers.

Congratulations to Chuck Kennedy on his ace on Winter #14 during league.

Distance without accuracy is definitely overrated, but beer isn't. Quit drinking that fruity beer and try a good lager.http://pdga.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif

Dave, you could cut your disc golf beer/water intake in half by switching to Bud Light exclusively, except you would need to carry twice as much around.

BTW, thanks! for the "secrets".

I noticed another unfortunate side effect of the new technique. You might just throw it too far. I drove it way past the basket on two holes and missed my birdie putt. I need to hold back on my throws, or start throwing shorter discs. Also, I learned to throw hyzer with the new technique. I threw a 7 over the first time I used it, and the second time I threw a 1 under. Now maybe I will start birdie-ing the holes I should be.

Bud Light is definitely a good disc golf beer, but Killian's Red is better with pizza.

I don't know if this is a secret or not, but accuracy is basically timing, and timing can be screwed up by slow or otherwise poor footwork. Light quick feet, especially the left foot doing the x step.

A small warning to those that are beginning with the x-step. I started using it a little while ago and noticed a nice improvement in my distance, which was great. One other thing that started happening was my right knee had begun bothering me after rounds. It was stiff and got progressively worse the more holes I played. After a long drive home it was almost unbearable to walk up the stairs into the house. I originally thought it was from the rocky, hilly terrain at Warwick and Mt. Kisco, but after talking to a doctor it seems it is from how I was throwing. I had been planting the right foot flat, rather than just using the ball of my foot, and the strain of twisting on it was being forced upon the knee.

Now that I know not to plant that foot I haven't noticed problems with the knee, but my timing and balance are off so I need to relearn it all over again.

Bummer.

* I had been planting the right foot flat, rather than just using the ball of my foot, and the strain of twisting on it was being forced upon the knee *

In muddy NW winters, I used to play with some Nike Sharks (they have huge hard rubber cleats). They worked fine until it stopped raining. When the ground hardened up, I started to have knee problems for about the same reason that you are having.

It's also worth noting that some shoes have treads that are better designed for spinning on the ball of the foot that others. Many shoes are more focused on getting a good all purpose grip without promoting much ball spin.

The sole should also allow for a proper amount of bending and twisting -- not too much, not too little. Ditto for ankle support.

Too soft and one might cause ankle problems -- too stiff and the problems might be relocated to one knees.

Shoe selection in DG is all very personal matter of choice that many take too lightly, IMHO...

As one throws for more and more distance, proper shoe selection (with adjustments for course conditions) becomes a more and more important part of the game.

Beware, your wife and kids may start to think you going goofy with all of the shoes you are buying in search of the best DG footware for every condition.

My current favorite is a light weight midhi hiking boot with medium stiffness and torsion. It seems to allow good ball spin well in most all conditions.

While a slightly softer cross training/running shoe might give me a bit more flex (and power) for toe push giving me perhaps 5 more yards max distance, I find that the slightly stiffer sole gives me a much better feel with the ground which translates into more consistant distance AND accuracy.

Aka, what good is another 5 yards in distance that is 10 yards off the mark?

From one Dave to another, I've found that switching from Busch to Amber Bock, my distance and acurracy have both improved ~ 15%! http://pdga.com/discus/clipart/smile.gif

Shoes make a lot of a difference. I always wear the same K-Swiss shoes, but one time I forgot and wore my Reebok running shoes. I was throwing terrible because the shoes are different and I didn't get the feel for the run-up.

Amber Bock is good with pizza too. http://pdga.com/discus/clipart/proud.gif

Thanks Dave. I moved the "pinch" from the tip of the thumb to under the knuckle and it worked great. Straighter throws and a little more snap. I never really considered how important the placement of the thumb can be. I was always tinkering with the fingers under the disc and ignoring the all important thumb.

I added 60 feet to my drives in 2 days.. with one little change, I just took the

Very nice Mike, you and old what's his name that got kicked off the board should get together ;~)

I finally went out to throw and felt that elusive snap. I just have one word to say
OOOOWWWWWWWWW!!!!!!
The tip of my index finger went numb once. At least it quit hurting for a little bit. These Kansas winters are brutal compared to Alabama. It's a good thing I built up some callous on my finger before I tried Dave's technique. At the risk of repeating some earlier advice, in the words of Frankie Goes To Hollywood, "RELAX". Every good drive I had, including the one that felt like it took my finger off, was one where I concentrated on a smooth, relaxed motion into the "whip". I was getting better acceleration when I didn't tense up and try to power it. As my judo sensei says, power and strength are the enemies of of speed and technique.

" Every good drive I had, including the one that felt like it took my finger off, was one where I concentrated on a smooth, relaxed motion into the "whip". *

One key you'll probably see some of the better players do when they are getting ready to throw is to 'shake' the disc in their hand to check for the proper relaxation. For each person, the proper degree of relaxation is more of a feeling that really has to be experienced rather than described.

Mr. Dunipace is there any where you can get these tips down on paper or film. We need to spread the word about these techniques and you could describe them to us on here but what we really need is to see them. As a part of our distance and accuracy field we installed at Rosedale Park in Kansas City with the Parks Department permission, one of the reasons they allowed it was our club puts on clinics for the people using the course. These started off with a good turnout but the numbers fell off. The clubs need help with correct techniques to pass on to the general public. This course gets 100 plus rounds a day and the numbers keep growing. Seems to me like a great article for the next Disc Golf World News.

Dave, maybe if you started touring and giving clinics showing your technique, maybe you could get a sponsor like Discraft or Lightening or Omega Disc, or Millennium or Gateway, or Ching. http://pdga.com/discus/clipart/smile.gif

Pete, I'd like to be able to say that I could get something coherent on paper, but I'm not a very good writer. You can copy and paste from this thread starting from the archived stuff, and use that if you like. As for film, I don't think that's going to come from me, but I think it's a good idea. Maybe Disc Golf World News.http://pdga.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif

Morgan, I think I would prefer a beer sponsor. "Drink Amber Bock and drive better" "Killians Red is what you need for those long drives" <FONT SIZE="-2">and water</FONT>

From CWare: Jeff Jones hit an ace on New years day at Bartholomew park Austin, Texas redesigned hole # 3 about 400ft or so big anhyser.. around 12:30 central time. I think that is the first TEXAS ace of the year.. WAY TO GO Jeff Jones..

http://pdga.com/discus/clipart/proud.gif couldn't resist

Dave, if you don't stop drinking so much beer you will become a wino.

Dave,
Think it is possible to have someone else write everything out for you and then you read over it and make changes as needed? This way we can have one nice complete package?

Matt, I've thought about doing that for a long time, but I haven't found anyone yet.

Matt, we all just wrote it out for Dave right here in this thread! And Dave read it all over and made changes, just like you said. If you just print this whole thread out and bind it into a nice little booklet, you will have it all.

Morgan, no worries, most of my drinking involves disc golf. I rarely drink at home and I don't go out much as I am a full time dad. However, in the Bud Light Driving School: "If you drink enough Bud Light you could drive through a brick wall." Is this in bad taste?

Personally, I think all beer tastes bad http://pdga.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif

Give me Diet Pepsi or give me death!!

You're driving.

I've collected all of The Master's wisdom (Dave, of course- not Morgan) and I have it in a Word doc. I've edited it slightly, and it's about 4 pages long. Would anyone like me to post it here? I only hesitate because it's so long.

Alas there's still much of The Master's wisdom that I don't understand. I've not yet reached a high enough level of enlightenment. I'd really like to see it. Having it on video would be priceless.

Also, how does what Dave's been saying here square with what Scott Stokely has on his new instructional video?

Hi Lowe. I would love to have a copy if you don't mind sending it to me http://pdga.com/discus/clipart/proud.gif Thanks http://pdga.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif

yes Lowe could you email it to me as well...thanks

If you'd like me to e-mail you a copy of "Dave Dunipace Distance Secrets" please send me an e-mail to [email protected]

It's a 5 page Word doc that is just a compilation of Dave's posts on this thread with some very minor editing.

You'll have to wait a few days, though, so that I can send them all at once. I just don't have much time.

OK, since there seems to be interest, here's Dave's Distance Secrets: A compilation of his posts here. Sorry it's so long.



DAVE DUNIPACE DISTANCE SECRETS

Friday, November 09, 2001 - 02:21 pm:
Two things you don't need to throw 400 ft. are a big run up and a big reach back. Timing, quick hips, proper body position, good elbow drive into the hit (snap), and maximum pull with your hips and shoulders out of the hit are what you do need. Two or three short quick steps are the most efficient and useful. Minimal reach back with anything but your elbow keeps everything going in the right direction.

Tuesday, November 27, 2001 - 08:01 am:
There is definitely a trick. It's not 'smoothness'. All other things held equal, long arms and wide shoulders help a lot. It is usually more difficult for the tall guys to pull quickly, but when they can...The whole trick is to spring the disc off of the wrist and fingers. i.e.- use your fingers and wrist as springs and not as hinges. Force as much pressure in as short a time frame as possible onto as tight a spring as possible, and...magic.

Tuesday, November 27, 2001 - 06:22 pm:
It's a tendon bounce. Baseball analogy...A pitcher's fingers and wrist are used to bounce the ball to the catcher. There is very little wrist motion. You can try it yourself with a ball or a disc. Force the weight of the disc or ball against your stiff wrist and fingers and it will bounce out. Your wrist and fingers only need to be stiff at the moment of impact. Throw your normal grip and action, but try to stiffen your wrist and fingers as much as possible at the snap. There are many things you can do before and during the impact to increase power and efficiency, but the trick really is the bounce.

Wednesday, December 19, 2001 - 08:46 pm:
Here are a couple of distance secrets:
1. Use your fingers and wrist as springs rather than hinges.
2. "Arm speed" comes from elbow motion rather than arm motion per se.
3. Very little momentum is necessary and can be counter productive. i.e.- reaching back with the disc or a long run up. Finishing is much more important.
4. Power is generated mainly by pulling through the whip with your hips and shoulders.
5. The whip is created from elbow down.
6. Prepare your shot from the whip back. In other words, find how you want to position your body such that you have the most power pulling at the very end of the whip rather than the beginning.
7. Aim with the whip momentum not the motion of the disc up to the whip.
8. Load your wrist and fingers lightly with the disc in the "launch" position.
9. The launch position includes the position of the flight plate and most importantly the back of the disc at the time of launch.
10. Never take your focus off the disc position and back of disc which will leave latest.
11. Don't think- Feel. Fluid, rhythmic, integration is probably impossible while you are thinking about what you are doing.
12. You can't throw the disc with your brain. No matter how much you know about technique, you have to perform, not recite.
13. Do think before you throw. Make sure you know what you want to do, and have the ability to do it. (footing, injuries, wet disc, etc.)

Thursday, December 20, 2001 - 10:05 pm:
The spring or tendon bounce works by using gravity or momentum to build up a force that is released to do work. A kangaroo jumps using this force. It is a rebound force added to the forward velocity of the hand. Even if the disc were spinning, it would be extremely difficult to throw very far at all without the use of this force. All throwers use this force to some extent whether they are aware of it or not. My point has always been to become aware of it and use it to its fullest potential. Explaining the motion is more difficult than telling you to stiffen your wrist and fingers as you hit the whip. But I'll try.

Thursday, December 20, 2001 - 10:07 pm:
The faster you can accelerate the disc forward, the more it will resist acceleration against your wrist and fingers. If you take a strong spoon and hold the handle with your right hand while your left hand attempts to bend it back, it will spring forward when your left hand releases it. This is essentially what is happening when you throw a disc. The disc's mass and momentum is what holds your fingers and wrist back until they spring the disc forward. Speed will not work the spring. Acceleration does. That is the change in speed over time. The greater the change in speed over the shortest time frame will produce the most force against the spring to be utilized as a bounce along with the velocity vectors.

By Dave Dunipace on Thursday, December 20, 2001 - 10:15 pm:
The spin move is part of the 'velocity vectors'. In order to pull through the end of the snap, your hip and shoulder will take your knee to a place it doesn't want to go. The tension is released with the spin. Personally, I would use the ball of the foot, but many throwers do spin on the heel. Yes, you will lose energy by not spinning properly, but there is more potential energy and flexibility in a slightly bent knee and the weight on the ball rather than the heel.

Friday, December 21, 2001 - 08:14 am:
-the snap is caused by your fingers slamming together after the disc rips out of your grip as it should. Although the snapping sound isn't necessary it is indicative of proper acceleration. The disc is pivoting between your thumb (base or pad depending) and a finger part. For me it's the second knuck of my index finger, but
for many, it's the second knuckle of your middle finger. At separation (launch) the rim of the disc forces the thumb apart from the fingers. If this is done quickly and powerfully enough, the thumb snaps back against the fingers with a pop. If your finger pressure is insufficient at separation, you will neither get a snap, nor proper
acceleration as you need to hold the disc as long as possible for maximum rotation and acceleration induced.

December 26, 2001 - 10:20 am:
The centrifugal force created by the turn of your shoulders along with your hips can be used very effectively to help extend the disc from a lower energy orbit next to your body to a much higher energy orbit as it escapes. In other words; you want to use centrifugal force to extend your elbow as quickly as possible and timed with the movement of your shoulders and upper arm. If you start with the disc away from your body, you will have to fight against centrifugal force before you can then use it.

Wednesday, December 26, 2001 - 10:26 am:
A very important note: Don't lock your plant foot down. It needs to pivot just after the snap to relieve tension on your knee. If you try what I have been telling you, you will not be able to stop turning until you tweak your knee or your foot pivots. Take your pick.

Wednesday, December 26, 2001 - 03:20 pm:
If form isn't an issue, then rhythm and strength are what is left. Most throwers who cannot get over the 400 ft barrier are expending too much energy getting to the snap, rather than using it on and through the snap where the acceleration occurs. The shortest, fastest acceleration curve is most efficient with the fastest, most powerful
shoulder turn initially helping to accelerate the disc centrifugally, and then to catapult the disc out against the wrist and finger tendons at the end of the snap. Strong hips, thighs, buttocks, and torso muscles help, but a strong grip, flexibility, and excellent timing help more.

Thursday, December 27, 2001 - 04:43 pm:
As for reach back, the only reach back that counts is elbow reach back, and that should be
only as far as you feel powerful starting from. Keep the disc as close to your body as you comfortably can.
Generally keep your elbow in the throwing plane and bend it as much as you can before you accelerate the
disc into the whip. If you're throwing hyzers your elbow will be lower than if you're throwing turnover or
rollers. I imagine you know all of this and are just missing a feeling in the end of the whip that you may
have had before.

Thursday, December 27, 2001 - 05:01 pm:
What happens to good throwers all the time is that they get caught up in foot placement, arm motion, body position, etc. and lose track of the most important focal point that determines all the rest. It's very hard to describe the focal point to someone who hasn't felt it but I'm sure you have. It's that quick pivot and rip disc movement/sensation that we use to time and aim our shots. That is where all of our energy is going- to power the pivot and rip of the disc out of our hands. My rip point is my index finger opposed by my thumb and backed by my middle finger. The rim of the disc forces its way out and off my index finger. Yours may differ. But everyone has a place from which the disc rips off and out. Find it and focus on the feeling of the disc accelerating and ripping out and let that feeling guide everything that you do.

Dave Dunipace on Thursday, December 27, 2001 - 05:20 pm:
Most people concern themselves with getting to the whip/rip. They believe if they reach back farther or run up faster or try harder or swing their arm faster that it will automatically translate into a longer throw. Not true. Putting more power into a slower whip will not result in a longer throw. Just a more tired thrower. If instead you will concentrate your efforts into pulling through the whip/rip [created mainly by your elbow motion (large), wrist/finger motion (small but strong), and disc pivot motion], you will get much better results. This is presupposing that your disc is not slipping out, but ripping out.

Thursday, December 27, 2001 - 05:27 pm:
It does not help to extend the elbow and disc backward only to drag it back to the body before then extending the elbow again. You are fighting centrifugal force that way. If instead, you keep the disc as close to your body as you can during your wind up with your shoulders, upper arm and elbow, you will have a centrifugal assist as you extend your elbow in time with your rotating shoulders.

Friday, December 28, 2001 - 10:15 am:
The x-step is not necessary, but it is very useful. I personally use a short form of the x-step. I stand in the position I want to throw in about 3 or 4 feet from the front of the tee, rock my weight from left foot to right, then a quick left and a gliding right. The rhythm of the steps is easily as important as the position of the steps.

Dave Dunipace on Friday, December 28, 2001 - 11:15 pm:
With the anhyzer throw is the importance of getting the nose down. The nose down will delay fade and keep the speed up. It's the combination of altitude and nose down that makes the anhyzer distance shot so effective.

Saturday, December 29, 2001 - 08:22 pm:
Your elbow should be as high as you can comfortably hold it. I try to hold the disc under my left ear and my elbow straight out in front of my body as far as I can without feeling strained. Nothing is passive. The spin of the hips, shoulders and upper arm create a centrifugal force to aid the active extension of the elbow which accelerates the disc into the spring (active) of the wrist and fingers. The arm and shoulders continue with as much force as possible to pull through the snap as the disc is ripping out of your fingers. There is a slight
forward motion of the wrist into an abrupt stop which begins the pivot and rip of the disc from the fingers.
The stop of the wrist is the beginning of the snap which must be finished by pulling through it as hard as you
can.

Dave Dunipace on Sunday, December 30, 2001 - 08:37 am:
The most important element in learning is imagining that you can.

Monday, December 31, 2001 - 04:53 am:
You want to keep your wrist down to keep the disc from fluttering (off axis torque) as it rips out. How you get height and nose down is by changing the position of the nose. You throw the nose about 30 to 45 degrees left, 15 to 30 feet high, with a right bank (anhyzer). As the disc turns to the right, the right side of the disc becomes the nose and flys nose down and glides downhill in a left to right trajectory. As the disc runs out of speed it will then automatically bank to the left when the left edge becomes the nose and continues downfield nose down right to left.

Tuesday, January 01, 2002 - 09:48 am:
First, I never said the cross step wasn't very useful. It is and I do it. I also tend to approach at a 45 degree
angle from right to left, which often doesn't leave much space. With more room, I might take three steps or even four. I try to take as few step as possible because uphill tees screw with my rhythm, uneven tees screw with my rhythm, slippery tees screw with my rhythm, etc. I'm just like all of you, I need momentum. But the run up really doesn't get much momentum in a physical sense. It mainly gives momentum in rhythm and psych up sense which is also necessary. On particularly bad tees, I can stand on the front of the tee and throw 300-330ft without moving my feet at all. I still have to shift weight, psych up, and feel the power and rhythm of the snap. Also, my elbow isn't bent past 90 degrees because I start to loose the feel of the shot. It's not the exact
amount of elbow bend per se that counts, it's the speed, power, and rhythm of the unbend that counts most.

Tuesday, January 01, 2002 - 10:29 am:
The most important part of any throw is the 'hit'. It is a collective term referring to the rhythm, orientation, placement, power, and feel of the disc ripping out of your grip. Everything else is done to accommodate the hit.

All of the questions you ask me, you could probably answer yourself by asking yourself questions like "Does the hit feel quick powerful, oriented, and properly directed?" If the answer is no to any of those questions, find out why. What can you do to better accommodate the hit? Better starting mechanics, better finishing
mechanics, better grip mechanics, more compact hit, better foot placement, better shoes, better pivot, better arm position, better focus on the hit, etc. The two most important places to look first would be directly before and after the hit. That is assuming you have the sharp rhythm of the hit first.

Tuesday, January 01, 2002 - 10:56 am:
To Suzette the Viking out in the cold: As to your question which pertains to the front (injection side)of the hit. Keep your wrist cocked down, but not curled back. Your wrist should be more or less in a hand shaking
position but cocked down. You should only be using enough tension in your wrist and fingers to maintain the orientation of the hit. Just before the hit starts, the wrist will wag back slightly, then go forward to an abrupt, steely stop, which begins the pivot and rip out of the disc. This by no means is to indicate that your arm stops just because your elbow and wrist motion stop. This is the START of the hit. To finish, you must continue to pull through the back side (ejection)of the hit with as much power as you need to get the disc to the destination you want. On the injection side of the hit you want compressed acceleration. On the ejection side
you want power.

To get more acceleration into the hit. Look for ways to move the disc more quickly in a shorter amount of time into the hit. This is where the elbow motion comes into play. In my opinion, it is much easier and more efficient to start with the disc close to the body. It is not necessary. It is just more efficient. If in doing this, you lose the feeling of momentum, power, and rhythm it won't do you much good. But if you incorporate it into the rest of your throw, it will do a ton of good.

Tuesday, January 01, 2002 - 11:10 am:
For hyzers bend at the waist. For turnovers and rollers with stable discs, arch your back. Some people have trouble arching their back, so your can stand staight, lift you arm up to your face and use turning discs also.
The higher your arm is, the more your can use your powerful lat muscles along with your traps. Also, everyone but rank beginners uses the tendon bounce to some degree. I use it as much as I can.
Spin maintains the orientation of the disc. The more spin, the more that spin will resist changing the orientation of the disc in flight.

Tuesday, January 01, 2002 - 07:49 pm:
Blake, the tendon bounce can only be accomplished by the sudden, abrupt stop of the wrist motion. The combination of the elbow motion and small wrist motion is sufficient to bounce the disc out and have it rip off your fingers as long as you don't let it slip out.

distance secret #14 is WATER. Water is power. Before you play each round, drink at least one quart of water.

accuracy is basically timing, and timing can be screwed up by slow or otherwise poor footwork. Light quick feet, especially the left foot doing the x step.

Ahhhhhh...my personal editted version is 25 pages (full sheet/12 pt. type) and includes much needed interaction with other people, Randy's and Fred's suggestions, and 2 pages of dialogue with Chris Max Voigt found on the link Randy gave. All "non-essential" posts were deleted. It really didn't take long to do.

I promise not to post it.

You forgot the "�" after DAVE DUNIPACE DISTANCE SECRETS ;)

It sounds like Ching Magnet has a much better version of Dave's Secrets. And he's also right that Dave's material should be considered copywrited.

You mean I'm not the only one that has compiled all this info onto a Word Doc? I have already passed out a few copies. Of course I give Dave D and all contributors full credit for their posts. C'mon Dave, get a ghost writer to put all this into a pamphlet with some pics and diagrams and sell it to your distributors. Rumor has it that some touring pros are hanging out at Innova's plant these days to make some extra gas money. They would probably be able to pose for some pictures demonstrating your techniques. You could bundle the pamphlet with your starter sets. OK, I'll stop begging and just be happy with what I have. Thanks again.

Stokely's video is where its at for proper technique and advise. Check his website for the video. It's about time someone put together a quality instructional vid. Way to go Scott!

and I think as a nice thank you, we should all donate something, whatever is appropriate for your personal situation to a charity of Dave's choice if you think this info helped you out in any way....

Does Dave's bar tab at Hooters count as a charity??

Just a thought and a way for some of us to say thanks.....

Hmmm, I wonder if a silicone additive would make a disc bounce for extra distance (or float).

Dave get's beat by girls (USDGC) twice. I think I'll get my advice on how to play golf from someone else.

A big thanks goes out to Mr. Dunipace and Lowe! I have not read this thread in quite a while, but dropped in yesterday right before I got off work and printed out Lowes compilation...I really did not think there would be so much useful information! I really appreciate all the technical jargon that makes you think about how the physics of throwing a disc work. However- instead of making this all readily available to the public, I think all copys should be destroyed and never shown to anyone and never talked about again! Might be a little selfish...http://pdga.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif

Hey Ching, are you just thumbing your nose at the rest of us or is that an offer to make your compilation available by e-mail? If you're offering to make it available, I'd like a copy. (Heck, I'll even pay the postage. http://pdga.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif)

I agree with Timmy on that one. If I was to learn from anyone on how to throw far, I think I would take my advise from a fromer World Record Holder (Stokely). Although just because Dave got beat by Juliana (not just any girl) doesn't mean he's clueless, he probably has an idea also of how to throw, so everyone should get as much information as they can take from the experts and figure out on their own what works for them. Throwing a disc isn't something that you can program in like to throw like a robot everyone is diferent.

However, after switching to his suggested technique, I added 30 feet of consistant distance, and I set my distance record with a 400 foot roller. He may not be Voigt or Stokely, but he knows a lot more about technique than most people. An example I just thought of is this, the Tampa Bay Lightning have Nikolai Khabibulin as their goalie. Their goalie coach is Jeff Reese(a former goalie). Khabibulin is a better goalie than Reese ever was, but that doesn't mean he still can't learn from him.

After experimenting with these new techniques, I believe I was just missing the snap. Now that I know what makes the disc snap, I can do it with just about any grip on the disc. It all came down to not letting go of the disc, but letting it rip from my grasp. (Jeeez, 5 years of disc golf, and I never got that one!) I have since looked at lots of photos of the top pros throwing and notice almost every single one still has their hand in the shape of a fist even after they launch the disc. I had always opened my palm up. Thanks for the helpful hint.


Now, I need some advice on disc selection. With this new style, my lightweight Banshees have become my longest drivers. Mostly because they actually come back. Do you think a Firebird would be good disc choice? Eagles just turn over and never come back.

I also can rip my 150 regular Valkyrie reeeally far, it just goes the other way. (I threw my 325 distance at Worlds with this disc.) Maybe a heavier Valkyrie or a CE Valk would go a little straighter?
Any suggestions?

Thank you Dr. D.

Kevin McCoy, let me inform you that Dave Dunipace IS a former world record holder. He held the world record of 458 feet using the elbow technique with a Wham-O lid in 1979, and when somebody else named Van Miller beat him the next day by throwing 470 using Dave's now-patented elbow technique, he cheated by inventing the Aero so he could hold the record again, and when somebody else beat him with an Aero he cheated again by inventing beveled-edge plastic (the Eagle) and won again until somebody else beat him with an Eagle. He's spent the past 20 years trying to invent another disc that he can cheat with again until somebody else buys one and beats him with it. http://pdga.com/discus/clipart/smile.gif

These are Dave's words: copywrite Dave Dunipace:

"FYI the origin of the pre-bent elbow technique goes back to a 1979 National Frisbee Series tourney. I was out warming up for the competition, and was using the reachback technique and kept smacking myself in the chest as I pulled the disc through in order to bend my elbow before cranking. I couldn't afford to blow any of the five chances I had by hitting myself, so I tried the pre-bent elbow to avoid the problem. Not only did it avoid the problem, but it improved my speed any timing such that I broke the the long standing 444 ft. world record that day. I threw 458 ft with a Wham-0. I taught the elbow emphasis to Van Miller who promptly went out the next day and broke my record. 470 ft. We both went on to become world distance champions."

Morgan the eagle (1st mold) came out before the aviar as did the aero.

I think that some of you need a history lesson. The main difference between Dave Dunipace and Scott Stokely is that Scott is from a younger generation. Is it possible that Mr. Dunipace was the Stokely of his era?

WFDF Winners of Distance at World Overall Championships:

1981, WFC: Dave Dunipace, USA,

From http://www.wfdf.org/discdist.htm

Since Dave's been throwing with distance for over 20 years, and since he invented the modern golf disc I think that I'll listen to him.

Suzette,
Since you're starting from a 150 Valk, I think you're on the right track going heavier with the regular Valk. It would be awesome if you could get a CE around 160 but I bet it would seem pretty stable. Good luck, Crushette!

I'll listen to both Dave and Scott. I'd listen to any pointers given by Kevin McCoy and Timmy Gill as well(sorry if I left someone out).

Listen to Randy..he knows what he's typing about.

There is some interesting reading at the WFDF site for the current world distance records.

How nice to know that a girl under 12 has thrown a disc farther than I ever have-- 317 ft.

My average is about the same as the Boys: Under 11 guy.

I'd like to see the Boys: Under 1 champ in action.

I'd also like to see the sea lion that threw a disc 31.72 ft.

Nikki Ross' name sure shows up a lot as you scroll down. She's definitely one to keep an eye on.

I would've also liked to have seen the Maximum Discs Aloft (1 per person) of 1,903. Maybe this can be broken at the 2002 Worlds?

I wish they'd taken video of the disc thrown off of Mt. Everest from 8,825m

I wonder how much it hurt Tim Selinske to catch a Guts disc thrown at 119 km/hr? (How many mph is that?)

From <a href="http://www.wfdf.org/rulrec.htm (http://www.wfdf.org/rulrec.htm)" target="_blank">http://www.wfdf.org/rulrec.htm</A></a>

Morgan,

Where did you get the quote from Dr. D that starts with "FYI the origin of the pre-bent elbow technique goes back to a 1979 National Frisbee Series tourney..."

Is there more good stuff from the good Dr. at that source?

No Chicken Wing catagory.

I want to see the "disc held up by one's breath" record!
8.70 sec. Gregg Hosfeld (USA) 11/25/86

In case my example wasn't clear, I think we all can learn from Dave D.

73.94 mph on the GUTS catch by Tim

Morgan are you calling Dave a CHEATER! That's a very bad word in our sport. Just Kiddin!

I'm for presenting knowledge from all sources and trying them all out until you find out what works for you, everyone will be a little different due to size of their hands, arms, if they have to throw around thier rack or not, or just athletic ability. Face it not everyone will be gifted to throw far. I usually just tell people to go out and unload thier bags and throw as hard as you can until it hurts. It strenghtens your muscles needed to throw and you'll evintually start seeing improvements in your length. It's not conventional but I think it works. Just remember the TYLENOL! You will be sore the next day for sure! See my advice is LAME!

But just remember you can still be successful in this game even if you don't throw far.

Advice List

Dave Dunipace
Scott Stokely
<STRIKE>Kevin McCoy</STRIKE>
Timmy Gill
http://pdga.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif

Hey,McCoy!!I appreciate the info. I just finished Day 2 of Super-Chuckin' @ one of the Razorbax intramural football fields, &amp; few hundred mg's might do the trick.http://pdga.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif congrats on SQUEEZIN' past us in the Cotton Bowl! http://pdga.com/discus/clipart/sad.gif

Lowe, the source of the quote was email that Dave sent me 2 weeks ago. I know it's bad manners to post private email but hey, I was only posting what he didn't want to post because it would look like he was bragging and so I'm posting what he didn't want to brag about on this board so I was bragging for the guy and that way, he gets his bragging rights through other people.

The best bragging of all is when others brag about you!!

You notice Dave hasn't posted for a while? It's because he's just sitting back and reading all the other people bragging about him!! http://pdga.com/discus/clipart/smile.gif

and Morgan you even get to brag that you got personal e-mail from Dr. D himself! http://pdga.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif Ya just gotta love disc golf! In what other sport would you get personal e-mail from a major force in the business?

ok ok...enough about elbow speed and foot speed and hip speed....I want to know what really matters...

What is the air speed velocity of an unladen swallow??

* What is the air speed velocity of an unladen swallow?? *

Half an gnat's posterior faster than when the scat hit the fan...

Come on Fred, let me and Randy and Ching and Jeff Ash do the joking, you play the straight man. Don't try to be funny.

Trust me on this.

My real advice is to do lots of punchin the munchkin for wrist strenghtening!

What is the air speed velocity of an unladen swallow??


What do you mean? An African or European swallow?

And how did that coconut get to Mercia?

Dr. D,

Maybe we can drag this back onto the subject. I've now begun the hard part of trying to apply your advice. I wonder if you can explain a little more what this means:
"The whole trick is to spring the disc off of the wrist and fingers. i.e.- use your fingers and wrist as springs and not as hinges. Force as much pressure in as short a time frame as possible onto as tight a spring as possible, and...magic."

I don't understand what it means to use your wrist as springs not as hinges. What do you mean by "springs" and "hinges"?