Flick, or snap, the disc with your wrist (spring), rather than using the motion of your throw to bend your wrist(hinge).

High Lowe,

Your wrist should be stiff and held motionless as the disc begins to pivot and rip out of your grip. Right before the hit starts, the wrist does hinge back slightly and then go forward slightly. This is where/when the important to remember part happens. Your wrist should not continue forward to sling the disc out, but should instead stop abruptly, causing the disc to be forcibly ejected. In order to get enough force into this ejection, you need acceleration not speed. Energy equals mass times acceleration. Most of the acceleration will come from the quick extention of the elbow.

Actually Force equals mass times acceleration ( F=ma) Using metric units F(N)=m(kg)a(m/s^2)
Where Force is measured in Newtons. Energy is measured in Joules, where J=Nm ( Newtons times meters )

So .....

The Energy equals the Forces times the distance thrown. E=Fd or E=mad

This is also known as Work ( W=mad )

Before the disc is thrown the Energy is Potential because the disc is still at rest. After the disc is thrown, then you can figure out the Kinetic Energy or Work of that throw.

Thank you for the correction Axldog. But just in case anyone is confused, the point is to get as much arm (disc) acceleration into the wrist spring and not arm speed. The difference is time. The upshot of that in a practical sense is to set your hips and shoulders for a later quicker swing of the arm and a more powerful pull through the hit.

So that's how I do it!

An abrupt stop of the arm at launch? That's sure a different story.

I guess it would work, and that's why the sidearm goes as far as it does when you stop your arm abruptly at launch. Nobody ever does a follow through on the sidearm, you just snap and pull your arm back like snapping a towel. Is that how you throw a backhand too? I think that would dislocate your shoulder if you suddenly stopped your arm like that. No? I gotta see this.

Stopping the wrist? Is this just done by keeping a really stiff wrist throughout the throw or by some other method? This is very strange since I've had people tell me that the key is to keep everything loose except the grip.

Also, I've been able to get a good ~380 snap by using mostly my arm, but when I try to get any body into it, I loose the snap and throw about the same distace. Does one lead with the hips and shoulders such as in a ball golf swing or does one use the body to pull through the disc (i.e. pull through with the hips and shoulders after the disc is released).
Thanks for the help
-jv

The proper follow thru of various full power throws is something that hasn't been mentioned too much in this thread. It's very important.

Anyone's who has been throwing for a while knows folks (power players and/or wantabe power players) who have hurt themselves for the lack of a good follow thru. There are some other fine points for safety and longevity.

What follow thru to use depends upon the throw. The basic principle is that a proper high speed throw creates enormous momentum that needs to be safely dissapated or injury will (not may) result.

For a back hand, it's fairly straight forward. After release of the disc, move your palm up. If you don't, you'll end up making a quick mess of your elbow. Then let the momentum unwind with a body spin in reverse to how the power was generated. This also requires footwear (and a surface) that allows you to spin without ripping your knee off.

The thumber roller is perhaps the most critical power throw to properly unwind. Basically, after the release with the thumb on top, you spin the thumb down and continue spinning your arm and body.

I don't have what might be called a power sidearm, so I'll defer comments on unwinding to others.

If you do a lot of practice and/or play, it's a good idea to make sure that you spend some time working on body balance. Good muscular balance is key to preventing a lot of miscelaneous body problems over the years. This might not mean much to the young DG bucks, but as you get into your 40s and 50s, what you did ten or twenty years ago to stay balanced adds up and yields dividends. A DG throw requires a lot of twisting and torquing of various body and spinal parts. If you don't have a modest balance to the opposing twisting and power moves, you will be prone to injury in the long term.

In other words, occasionally throw a few lefties if you're a rightie or visa versa. For one, it forces you to go thru teaching the bozo 'other half brain' and klutzy arm and hand how to attempt to do something well. Minimally, the process of teaching your opposite hand how to throw will teach you a lot about how to teach others how to play well. If you don't know how to properly teach your left hand to throw, it's unlikely you can teach others much of consequence.

There are also times where you might end up having to actually play with your opposite hand. As I recall, didn't Ron Russell end up playing with his opposite hand at some big event? I dislocated my thumb about 20 years ago skiing and had to play as a lefty for about 6 months since my right thumb had a pin in it. I got up to about 90 yards, which was pretty good for discs back then. I know lots of other experienced DGers who have done similarly while injured.

Bottomline, the more power that is involved, the more attention that must be paid to proper technique, follow thru and balance.

How much should you bend your arm at the elbow? Keep it closer to your body, or just slightly less than stright?

Most of these questions have been covered already, but at the risk of hogging too much thread space... Morgan, I never said to stop your arm, not even with the sidearm, which we haven't covered yet. Stop your wrist, the disc begins its pivot and rip as you continue to pull through that action as hard as you can with your arm and shoulder turn. Your arm should end up more than 180 degrees from the target. Eric your arm should be bent about 90 degrees with the disc close to your body (left shoulder) and your elbow extended away and straight out. Time the quick extension of your lower arm with the rotation of your shoulders to get a centrifugal assist.

Justin, sorry I missed yours. It is only at the hit that you become tight, before that you only have enough tension in the fingers and wrist to hold the disc in launch position. Please see previous posts.

Unfortunately I just discovered that my current e-mail account will be closed next week. So if you want to contact me about Dr. D's Distance Driving Doc please change my e-mail address to [email protected] Sorry for the inconvenience.

Let's give Dave some credit for saying "High Lowe" a bunch of posts ago.

It has probably already been mentioned, but one secret to distance is to play long courses. Speaking of which, I am heading up to La Mirada for a 12 noon tee time, any takers? DD

Speaking of proper body conditioning, does anyone know any good upper-body DG stretches? I think I have the shoulder covered, but my back has been getting really sore.
-jv

At least Dave didn't say "Hel..Lowe"

But I don't mind when those that think I'm angelic say "Hey Lowe".

Native Americans can always use the salutation "How, Lowe".

My favorite girlfriend was Beatrice Hold, who went by Bea. Can you guess what people called us? (Lowe and Bea Hold)

When I first started dating the woman who is now my wife some classmates gave her the "Sweet on Lowe" award.

Then when we got married I wanted her to say, "Lowe, I am with you always", but she refused.

Sorry if these aren't very funny, it's just that I'm depressed. But then again I'm always Lowe.

(Why oh why did my dad curse me with this name? But I got even by handing it to my son as Lowe V. How Lowe can you get?)

Or when Wayne and Garth got excited about your cool new car:

Schwing!!!! Lowe, sweet chariot!

Then there was the time that I was riding in an airplane and talking on one of those phones. My friend asked me, "Are you high Lowe?"

When taking my leave of someone they usually say, "Bye Lowe", and I reply "Sell high."

Once, while on the course I had a very tough shot that had to stay only 3 feet off the ground to stay under lots of tree branches. I took way too much time setting up and my exasperated partner said, "Throw Lowe!", so I replied. "That's what I'm going to do."

(OK, that's a pig pun. weak, weak, weak...)

So Linda Martinez <FONT COLOR="ff0000">Jr.</FONT> is also on the board now. I hope she's as funny as her mom. Who's her dad?

I supose if all the Lowe jokes can be tolerated, ya'll can bear another inane question by someone still unclear about the tech. Dave has been patiently explaining to us all.
Is the following description fairly accurate (Although perhaps overly simplified), or am I on the wrong track?
The throw starts by moving the elbow (upper arm) forward until the elbow is pointing a bit left of the target (RHBH, body facing ~90 deg. from target, elbow at 90 deg. angle). At this point upper arm movement is stopped, transferring energy to the forearm (which starts to unwind) and also initiating the shoulder turn. As the forearm unwinds (much like a whip) and shoulder rotation adds centrifugal force, the wrist is bent slightly. As the arm straightens (followed by the straitening of the wrist) acceleration stops and the disc is ripped out of the hand (this is why the wrist must not unwind as this would slow down the disc as it uses some of the energy from the acceleration of the forearm). This point where the arm and wrist are perfectly strait is "the hit". However, one must not try to stop the arm in this position, but instead pull through the throw to ensure maximum acceleration and centrifugal force (much like one does not try to stop the golf club after it contacts the ball).
Thanks for putting up with those of us who have been slow to pick up the concept.
-jv

To be honest I still don't get it, but I haven't had much time to practice either. I wish I could see some pictures.
Anyway here's a picture of Juliana Korver (in 1998) during her pull back right before release. (http://www.innovadiscs.com/juliana/Gallery/arm.html) Her arm is straight and her wrist is in a line with the arm. How does this square with Dr. D's teaching?

One last thing. Which video is better for viewing throwing tech. 2001 or 2000 worlds (I hear 2000 has some nice slow-motion sections)
-jv

Juliana is doing the reachback method. She has not as yet incorporated the bent arm method. Everything else about her form is fine. If she had her elbow bent in the picture instead of straight, she would be doing it. It is that simple. The result of doing it would be more acceleration into the hit. More acceleration is more potential force/energy to work the wrist finger springs. Also more potential energy/force to cause the disc to rip out from your grip. To use all of the extra force created by the additional acceleration, you would then need a tighter/stronger wrist with a tighter/stronger grip, and a more powerful pull through. I really wish we had some diagrams or videos as they are often worth a thousand words. The reality is though, that some people get it intuitively and some have to get it by rote. Some people never get it. Those are the ones that don't use their imagination. Step one would be to throw normally, but remember to chop your elbow later and quicker even if you start from a straight arm position.

I think you'll find it easier to start with the elbow bent once you learn to chop the elbow more quickly. Stand still in a throwing position and practice your swing as you normally do except emphasize the elbow chop. You will find that you have to bring the disc to your upper chest just to move it back out again. Very inefficient and difficult to maintain timing and acceleration. Then start with the elbow bent and do everything else the same. Same feet, hips, shoulders, upper arm. Just bend the elbow at the start. You will find that it is much easier to then uncurl the elbow quickly, powerfully, and with timing. This is the first part to develop acceleration. Next part is to efficiently use the added acceleration.

Dave, if a person was to throw some sky annies, it seems it would help them understand what you are saying about the elbow.

* I really wish we had some diagrams or videos as they are often worth a thousand words. *

It's not that difficult to put together a web page that discusses and illustrates a point and include a link in the forum.

This forum's software has the ability to display pictures (and possibly videos for all I know), and html, but, as I understand it from emails with the webmaster Marty, this would increase thru put that "might" slow down the site and/or "might" put the PDGA site over it's alloted traffic allotment.

Perhaps the PDGA might consider offering these 'extra' priviledges to paying PDGA Pros, or perhap PDGA Pros that are willing to pay for the additional priveledge. If traffic is a problem, then get a better ISP provider. It's a very competitive market.

That being said, the option of providing video, graphics and text at one's own web site has some significant advantages for all involved. For one, it provides a reference that others can easily find and refer to later. Google, and other web search engines, are reasonable to very sensitive to what sites get visited when asks for a search for particular information. (for example, search under "camp leave it better than you found it")

These same search engines typically avoid inclusion of forum sites, for who knows what reason.

Part two is working the wrist/finger springs with the added elbow acceleration. Three things need to happen in quick succession: the wrist has to stop, the disc has to pivot and rip off the fingers, and you have to pull through this action with your arm and shoulder turn. If you have pulled through properly, your arm will end up at least 180 degrees past the target.

I really want to try this stuff, but's it's been so cold outside here in Rochester. I went out this morning since it was almost 40 and finally got to experiment. A little history here. I dislocated my shoulder 5 years ago and to this day still can't throw a softball anymore. I am dedicated to getting my body back to the condition it was in before the accident.

(you gonna eat that last jelly filled?)

I went out and tried the elbow-snap technique, or at least my perception of it. As I gazed at my disc flying at least as far as before, I watched as my arm landed a good 50 feet from the pad. Dang, this hurts.....

(can someone reach the remote for me?)

so either my arm is still out to lunch or I'm missing something (other than my wedding ring which unfortunately was attached to said arm at launch).....

any advice from someone who's been there??

"Follow through" is a concept/directive that we hear all the time in sports from those of us that like to teach. I believe at best it is misleading. At worst it is debilitating. If "follow through" is used to maintain a consistent form, such as a pose at the end of a throw, then it is probably a good thing. But, if it is taken to mean "continue the arm after you've thrown" you have been mislead. Follow through should occur naturally due to the powerful pull you must exert though end of the snap. On a long throw,your arm should end up more than 180 degrees past the target because you couldn't stop it. If your arm doesn't have enough momentum to end completely away from the target on its own, you are not pulling through the snap hard enough. On a very short throw, you may want to continue the follow through of your arm to maintain consistent form as your arm may not have enough momentum on its own.

I have really tried to read and understand and follow your directives. I have studied guys throwing who throw far , like the guys who attended the USDGC this year. I realize that it is probably going to take a long time if I ever get it, but, it was killing my elbow and ribs and other stuff and my throws were not good. Bent elbow?? I don't get it. That hurts.

In ball golf the pro who knows teaches those who want to learn in person. How about some of the pros on tour who really understand the mechanics of long distance throwing show up early to super tour events. They could charge $10 per 1/2 hour for a one on one distance clinic. A hands on clinic where they move the throwers arm into the correct position , adjust the throwers stance etc. The touring guys need $$ to feed their Winnebagos. We , the weenie arms, need more distance. Seems like a good fit.

Dave , how about it ? $10 for a 1/2 hour lesson?

p.s. Marty , can we get spellcheck back ??

Stan, it shouldn't hurt at all. Maybe muscle fatigue, especially the tops of your gluteous maximus. (Where is spellcheck?) You shouldn't have to completely change your form. Minor adjustments will make major differences when they add up. Don't start with the elbow bent at first. Instead, slightly delay and emphasize the speed of your present elbow motion in conjuction with your normal form. Next, in the context of your normal motion, emphasize your wrist and finger tightening through the snap until you can anticipate and feel the disc ripping out. Next, you can emphasize pulling through the snap with your arm and shoulder turn as the disc is ripping out. Keep your right knee slightly bent and prepare to pivot to relieve the resulting stress from the increased pull through. But really Stan, considering the rest of your game, if you add much distance at all you're going to have to move up to the open at the World's.http://pdga.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif

As for the 'in person' thing, it is almost always a good thing to watch the pros throw. The best pros to watch are the smaller guys getting the big shots like Steve Brinster or Chris Brophy. Listening to the pros can be dicey however. Many of the top level pros do not know why they throw far or cannot articulate it properly. A clinic put on by the Winnebombers would certainly be good to watch. I'll talk to them about theory. Maybe this could be the start of something cool.

Hi, as my moniker states, I'm a(n) Am Master who has taken up the game in my 40s. I see quite a number of posts from people stating how far they throw but I have to say that it has been my finding that many people exaggerate when it comes to distance. People tend to remember their very best drive whereas a person's average 'full' drive would be a more accurate measuring stick.

After much observation, I think the average person in their 40's with decent technique should be able to throw 300'. The tendons are not as elastic so we middle-agers just can't bounce that disc as far as the young, lithe throwers.

For a middle-ager to throw over 300', you either need superior throwing technique or elite athletic ability or both. Put them together and I'd say 375' is probably about right. Of course, a person in the 99 percentile of technique and athletic ability will be throwing quite a bit farther than that.

Anyway, let's get to what I originally wanted to 'type' about: I think we have a considerable amount of info here on backhand throwing technique. How about sequeing over into sidearm technique? There are some pretty tight courses around my parts (MI) where a long (300-400'), accurate sidearm would really be of benefit.

I am going to attend a clinic with Barry Schultz, Cameron Todd, Todd Branch, Dave Feldberg, Avery Jenkins and possible others at the Big Show hosted by MaceMan. This clinic is the last Friday of January in the Dallas area.

Dave, are you saying that some of these players use the bent-elbow method of throwing backhand?

I am looking forward to these clinics for many reasons other than distance. Although, I would never turn down the chance to add more distance and I have been very interested in seeing what you have been articulating.

* $10 per 1/2 hour for a one on one distance clinic. *

I'd suggest trying Scott's video first.

You might also try to see if you can get your local club pros to sponsor a clinic. Group clinics are a more cost effective use of your time. Or try to play a few rounds with a local pro. Many are very open to helping out.

When I play with those of lesser skills (which I like to do), I generally observe and hold off on giving advice unless asked, at least not until the last hole or two. For one, there's no worse place to practice technique advice than on the course. Advice given at the end of a round has a greater chance of being worked on that advice given early in the round which was found 'not to work'.

Secondly, there's frequently so much to work on that it's not practical to waste a whole round instructing a player on every technique. It's best to focus on the few technique items that might help the most.

Thirdly, the biggest problem with many am's is not technique, not distance, not putting, but mediocre/poor choices and mediocre/poor course management.

Most ams don't seem to be overly interested in adopting a systematic introspective approach (http://www.dolf.com/stuff/keeping_score.htm) to identifying and working on the weaknesses in one's mental and technique game. Those that do, move along faster and migrate to higher ranks.

No Jose, I don't think any of these guys use it as a starting position, but they all use a lot of elbow for acceleration as all good long throwers do. Another thing they all do is pull through the hit strongly. Watch the finishing position of their arms. They all have a very strong hit (wrist and fingers) to pull through too. Avery and Dave are particularly strong drivers. My technique just makes it a little easier to do what these guys are doing already using a little harder starting position. As a consequence of my starting position, on a good day my distance off the tee is comparable to three of the five. I don't think I would have a prayer keeping up with them using their technique. (starting position)

Dave,

Stan's personal clinic idea is fantastic! In half a heart beat I'd pay YOU $20 for a half hour lesson in the techniques you're espousing here.

Can I be the first to sign up now for a slot on Sat. at the 2002 USDGC? Or is that time too busy with the tournament?

Provided there is time, and I'm feeling good, I would be happy to do it free of charge. Maybe we could get Steve Brinster to help demo too.

I think most aspiring disc golfers would pay a lot more than $10 for a half hour lesson with the likes of Stan and Dave if they are serious about learning. I'd pay Stan $100 right now for private putting lessons. I can't putt for beans. And I'd pay Dave the same amount for crushing tutorials in person.

I've heard Ken Climo gets like $100 per hour for private lessons and it makes sense because it's like $100 gas money already, I'm sure they'll pop another $100 for a quick hour of lessons from a disc golf superhero. Ball golfers would probably pay $15,000 for an hour with Tiger Woods. I mean heck, Yogi Berra charges $35 just to sign an autograph, Hank Aaron charges $100.

I play ball golf only occasionally. I love it. I also have a lot of friends who love to play and frequently do so. They subscribe to golfing magazines too. I play the week I go to the beach and maybe only twice the rest of the year. You would think that they would kill me on the course. Only a couple do. (that does not infer that I am good) The ones that take lessons , hands on lessons from a local course pro are the only ones that beat me. I think there is value in reading about form. I think there is greater value in one on one assistance and in general I see that proved out in ball golf.

Fred, you have a number of good points. I do look
forward to seeing Scott's video. I have watched him in person many times and the problem is that his arm moves faster than my eyes can follow. He is unreal. Beginners can be overwhelmed with information and usually only need one tip every so often to keep them on track. I love the way that I see other enthusiastic golfers helping newbies out here. There is much satisfaction to be gained from helping someone improve their game.
My suggestion (whether for $ or not) of one-on-one clinics by top pros was really for other top pros or top ams who are still missing one or two basics in the form area.

Dave, maybe if some of your team golfers are wintering down your way you can get them up to speed on why they throw far and help them learn to articulate it. I still can't believe how far Steve Brinster throws and the ease with which he does it.

Morgan, unfortunately, the value of a putting lesson from me , based on my putting as of late , would be the rough equivalent of a share of Enron stock. I think the Democrats dun it!!!

* ... one-on-one clinics by top pros was really for other top pros or top ams who are still missing one or two basics in the form area. *

Most of what many top ams are missing is not technique -- lots of them can throw a country mile, and putt along with the best.

What seperates the ams from the 'pros' is mental stuff like course management, the nuances of winds, etc. Much of this stuff is highly personalized according to one's personality.

It's also worth noticing that unlike BG, DGers don't have a caddy to help coach players along during the battle. In many respects, that's one of the unique aspect of DG compared to these other sports.

Perhaps the only other major(?) sport that doesn't have "in the heat of battle coaching" is tennis. It's just you and your rackets when you enter a court to play at Wimbleton.

Stan, I have already started with the Winneboys. The are not quite up to speed yet, but it won't take too much more. They are all real bright. So far, we have spent more time on short putting as they know where the money is.

Mr. Dunipace, what do you think about snapping a few photos and doing the John Madden teleprompter thing to them and posting them hear or your wbepage just so we can see hit, elbow bend, footwork, ect...

The last round I played the only thing I concentrated on was the uncurling of the elbow in time with the rotation of the body. I could tell when I did it right, because it went with so little effort. I could also tell I did it correct because of the exclamations of "Holy ****" and similar stuff from the group behind me after my 370 foot drive.

One more thing. After throwing about 75 or so drives in a field, the part of my hand that was sore was the print of my ring finger. I can tell that is the point where the disc is ripping out of my hand. Is that bad? I was using a 4 finger power grip at the time. (PS. The main reason they were exclaiming about my drive is that they don't see many 14 year olds throwing that far.)

Jedidiah, it's not bad that it comes off your ring finger pad, just as it's not bad to reach straight back. It's just less effiecient. The ring finger pad is the first to pop off the rim with a power grip and other grips too. Usually the ring finger is a 'lock' rather than rip finger. The index finger is usually the rip finger with the power grip, but I can tell you from experience that it did rip off the ring finger occasionally. It is more efficient to come off the index finger later in the pivot. If you put your ring finger on the lower part of the rim, it will be easier for it to slide off and let the index rip. I had so many problems with this action that I devised a grip that has my pinkie on the back of my ring, my middle finger on the back of my index finger, and separation between the ring and index, such that it is easy to do properly.

Pete, that's a good idea, but it will take a while to get it together.

Stan,
All YOU need is two good knees! You consistently and accurately throw 380 without the advantage of being able to really lean into one. Boo hoo for you, you still beat everybody! I played with Dave in Port Arthur and with you hundreds of times and you already use the same bent elbow. You use the technique perhaps moreso than most because of your lack of knees. While the REALLY long throwers are using arm, shoulders, hips, and legs, you are forced to leave out the legs part.

Morgan, Stan is one of the best putters in the world, and a super nice guy always eager to help others, but he doesn't know how to teach putting. His advice is to "just throw it right in, but not too hard, or it could go past" Gee thanks, Stan!

Wanna see a bent elbow? Go here to check out Brinster's form. (He really is a freak)

http://www.faculty.fairfield.edu/lsteffen/norwalk2002/stevedistance.jpg

Daniel

That's a good picture. He's already up on his right foot and hasn't even started his elbow. Appears he's in maximum position. His form is better than mine.

Notice in the photo how Steve still has his offhand on the disc. I was taught not to do that. Comments please.

I think the photo was taken just as he was starting his X-step.

Mark, why were you told to keep your left hand off?

Dave, actually, I'm not sure why (not a good sign , I know) I think it was because by having your off hand on the disc during the wind up it would hinder ones ability to reach back with the disc for a long pull. Also, perhaps balance would be enhanced with the off hand not on the disc. I'll ask Bryan Gawler next time I see him, (he was the crusher who gave me that advice.)

Mark, he may have a good reason that I am not aware of, or he may be recommending something that worked for him, even though he doesn't know why.

The off hand should be down when you throw!! That's why you should keep the off hand off the disc.

Scott Stokeley explains it in his excellent video by comparing it to the figure skater. The figure skater spins slowly when she has her arms out and when she wants to spin faster she pulls her arms in and even pulls her other leg in and spins much faster. It's called the conservation of angular momentum. Scott didn't say that in the video, he probably didn't want to look like an uncool braniac.

The pre-bent elbow is probably more of the same thing. Your body spins faster when your elbow is bent for the same reason as the figure skater. But the off hand should be all the way down at your side. If you want to lock yourself at 300 foot drives, hold your off-arm up and you'll never drive farther than 300.

By the way Dave, Scott gives a very detailed description of your pre-flexed tendon spring thing. He would make you proud. It's a great video, word!!

I've found that putting my off-hand on the disc does reduce how far I can reach back, but with the bent elbow technique, I've found that I don't need to reach back nearly as far as with the straight arm technique to get the same distance. Also, I've found that I throw more consistently and more accurately by putting my off-hand on the disc because I use it to establish and maintain the disc's orientation in my hand throughout the reach back and and during the run-up. It's probably more psychological than anything else, but it's one less thing for me to think/worry about. ("That's not a hitch, that's a triggering mechanism!") YMMV.

Stokely advised that the non-throwing hand stay off the disc during his clinic at Buffumville. I asked him if it is critical to keep the hand free and he said definately, didn't elaborate why. Since that time I have converted. Took a while but I seem to throw better now. I have noticed it allows for a better reachback (some what out the window now) and I turn over discs less (maybe more spin?) I have also converted to "Dave's" style for long throws and after 2 rounds and one soccer field session, consistently throw as far or farther than before . On short drives I stick to the straight reach back because I have very good accuracy if I align my arm 180 deg. from the target and pull straight along the line. Dave, will I incorporate the bent arm throw into my shorter game as I increase accuracy or is it mostly for open drives? One more question, I checked the link to Juliana's grip posted somewhere on here. She places her thumb pretty much towards the center of the disc. I pinched very close to the edge of the disc and I am gradually moving my thumb more towards the center. However, I have found that I prefer the solid pinch of the thickness of the rim as opposed to the thinner top. If the thumb is on top, the pinch isn't directly between the first finger and thumb. Any thoughts from anyone? I love New England winter golf....

Felix's post regarding the off hand is right on, in my opinion. Morgan is essentially correct except it doesn't matter if the hand is up, down, or on the disc, as long as it's not away from the center of spin. If you are using the reachback method, it is important to take your off hand off the disc as it would then be away from your body along with the disc. If you are using the prebent elbow method, the disc is always close to your body and the off hand can be used as Felix describes.

It seems to me that if the off hand is up with the disc during the reach back, that it will create more drag when it's grip is released during the early stage of the forward rotation of the body.Use Stokely's analogy of a figure skater.

Keeping it tight to the body will lessen any drag from dead weight. I like to keep it in a "sling" position and bring it and the left shoulder around with force as part of the acceleration.

(Wow-double post with a similar message!)

Leftgoblin, the prebent elbow style makes short shots potentially real easy as you can basically throw from right under your chin where you can see the shot. However, any method takes practice to get a comfortable and confident feel for the timing, which is quicker and more powerful.

Leftgoblin, thumb position is a tricky thing to explain. The best thing I can say is that your thumb can grip and oppose in more than one place. Thumb pad, first joint, second joint, and base. This is in order of weakest to strongest point. Further complicating the picture: the pressure from the base of the thumb can be translated along the rim such that it is not directly opposed, but none the less effective. Try to become aware of where the pressures are coming from, and what you are trying to accomplish with your grip, and you may find a more efficient and/or powerful grip. At the very least you may be able to focus pressure in your current grip more effectively.

A little elaboration regarding the figure skater thing. The only time it matters about pulling your non-throwing arm into your bady (up or down doesn't matter as long as it's in) is during the actual throw. If your non-throwing arm is out during the reach back it doesn't matter, it's fine. If your arm is out even during the cross step or beginning of the 360, that's fine too, but when you get into the explosion part of the throw you have to pull it in to get that figure skater spin effect.

In Scott's video he actually tells you to have your non-throwing arm OUT in the beginning of the throw to GET momentum into the arm, and then when the throw continues and you pull the arm in, it transfers that momentum to the rest of the body and generates the increase of spin of the body. Makes perfect sense to me.

Angular momentum is angular velocity multiplied by the radius of the object from the center of spin and the mass of that object (your arm). Angular momentum is always conserved. When you pull your arm in the radius is decreased, the mass stays the same, so the angular velocity must increase by the same proportion, so the velocity of the non-throwing arm would increase by the same about. However, you are holding that arm firmly against your body so all the momentum of that arm transfers to your body making your whole body spin faster. In this case, the angular momentum of the non-throwing arm transfers through the shoulders and that increases the speed of your shoulders which transfers all that momentum to the THROWING arm and to the disc. The non-throwing arm is just as important as the throwing arm!

Thanks, Capt. Morgan. Just by going through the motions right now, I can see where starting with the off-hand out can bring a bit more forward momentum if done properly. If anything it feels more fluid and graceful that way.

I wonder if you had a 5 pound dumbell in the non-throwing hand, would that make your body spin even faster yet when you bring your arm in?

After think about having the off hand on the disc or not, I had a thought that may or may not work. You start by gripping the disc with your off hand with the same pressure as the throwing hand. As you are spinning before your release you don't let go with your off hand. It rips out of the off hand with the tendon bounce effect and gives more speed into the real tendon bounce and actual release. I have no idea if this would really work, but it just popped into my head tonight. Any thoughts?

I am going to test it tomorrow afternoon. I will let you know how it works.

Matching calluses.

Must be nice to be 15 and have nothing to do.

Jed is a disc golf test pilot. He has plenty to do.

Between Geometry, English, Geography, 2 Literatures, Consumer Math, and Science, I find time for disc golf.

Between disc golf, I find time for work, sleep, drinking, and sex.

in that order? man, are my priorities messed up!
http://pdga.com/discus/clipart/proud.gif

Ford

* She places her thumb pretty much towards the center of the disc. I pinched very close to the edge of the disc and I am gradually moving my thumb more towards the center *

The standard thumb position with a fan, stacked or modified power grip is one the lid midway between the balancing inner finger(s) which sit somewhere on the lid. This provides a very good and repeatable control of the flight plane. This translates into good distance AND accuracy.

It's probably not the best thumb position for a full power grip since there is no counter balancing force on the inside of the lid by the fingers.

As for the opposing arm position, if one is to use the skater (or diving) analogy, an increase in speed of a spin is created by having an extended rotating arm that moves inwards to the chest at just the right moment and then out at the moment afterwards to make a controlled follow thru (and de-spin).

There are undoubtably lots of ways to take most controlled advantage of this power source. One is to have the path of the opposing hand be like having a string that is just shorter than the length of the arm attached between both hands. "Just shorter" translates into having the arm come in to increase the whip. If the opposing arm reaches too soon or too late, the whip power is not ideal.

One starts with the opposing hand in the opposite direction to the target. When the disc is just about to reach the release point, the opposing arm is brought against the chest -- this creates more spin (or whip) which, if timed properly, translates to more (seemingly effortless) power for the throw.

The proper follows thru for the opposing arm after the release is then outwards in the direction of the disc. This dissappates the spin or whip in a safe and controlled fashion for injury free longevity disc golf.

As a final note, I'll take a significant exception to the "ideal" arm position in the Brinster picture. The wrist is outside the disc as it crosses the chest. This indicates a preliminary over cocking of the wrist -- typical of power grips. As the throw reaches the release point, the disc energy must be moved off a linear path at release by conscious timing of a wrist uncock. This all translates into distance throws of variable accuracy.

I'll admit that this is a typical throwing pattern seen by power grip users. When one locks all of your fingers under the rim, the wrist loses it's flexibility. The solution is to throw as noted, with the problems noted.

To move up to the next level, you've got to abandon the power grip in favor of any of the modified power grips (double or single fan, or stacked (Climo)). With these grips, the wrist maintains it's flex and freedom of motion during the entire throw.

This allows the wrist position of the disc hand to be at the front (target side) of the disc from the back of the throw all the way to just before release (aka controlable accuracy). With the grip at the target side of the disc during the throw, as the throw reaches the end of the arm length just before release, a natural cocking (and decocking) happens giving good repeatable snap and spin to the disc as well as distance and accuracy. This CAN'T happen with a power grip because the wrist doesn't have a proper relaxed flex to it.

With this technique (which is allowed for by one of these modified grips), the linear motion of the disc is hardly altered at all, the spin is added at the very end of the throw when the momemtum of the disc is at it's max. The end result is very good distance AND accuracy for the power player. The same motion (and grip) also works for accurate midrange and lesser distance shots (as noted by Climo at his web page).

To follow how this works in slow motion, grab the back of the disc with your opposing hand and provide some modest backpull while you slowly pull forward in a straight line with the disc hand holding the front (target side) of the disc thru the entire motion until just before the release point. At this point, the disc will almost come to rest against your straight arm and you will note a very strong cocking of the disc just before the release. (This last minute unconscious cocking is difficult to get with a power grip for a variety of reasons).

Retry this with the power grip motion if you want to find out the stuggle the power grip creates for controlable accuracy and distance.

Also, since the grip is at the front of the disc during the entire acceleration of the throw, you have excellent control over the acceleration of the disc WITH minimal grip pressure, which also helps one have a relaxed wrist, which translates into the repeatable snap and spin to the disc without sacrificing accuracy or distance.

I've got a distance secret

Tip #1 throw down wind to throw farther, you will see results in seconds!

Throw down wind in Oklahoma, to achieve maximum length, most days with that 30 mph wind throwing down wind adds at least 50 feet to your distance.

Take this student of mine: Hi my name is Peter Hertzya and I have been throwing down wind for weeks now and it goes much farther than before! If I wouldn't have given the Wizard my $100 I would have never learned such good secrets as throwing down wind goes farther! I also get more chicks now! Wow thanks Mr. Wizard!

Check back next week when I will give you tip-top professional expertise secrets like it easier to putt when your not urinating!

Get all your expert, professional tips from the WIZARD! The Wizard can be found at http://tulsadiscsports.org/

Brinster's not the only freak around here.

I've found that throwing in the nude makes my body more aerodynamic and can perpetuate more speed, thus resulting in greater distance, it isn't fun in the snow though....

My Body is dimpled like a golf ball, I can throw real far in the nude,but w/ a terrible slice

C

Kevin, why don't you go somewhere and throw your MRV in the basket.

Just wanted to thank all of you for the mental images.
Gonna need therapy after this.
http://pdga.com/discus/clipart/proud.gif

Thomas, what's the best way to get snap when throwing a BVD ?

thanks,
curious yellow

Give her the whip.

I actually overheard Thomas the other day. His secret is that he never washes them.

I use the Opposed Thumber technique I learned from Weird Al Grundy.

they're my lucky bvd's, the luck will wash off!!

OK, I think I got the grip thing down. Now I have a question about your plant foot. Should you spin on the ball of your foot? Should your toes be pointed at the target, or should they be pointed 90 degrees from the target? Any help would be appreciated!

** By Dave Dunipace on Thursday, December 20, 2001 - 10:15 pm:
Michael, the spin move is part of the 'velocity vectors'. In order to pull through the end of the snap, your hip and shoulder will take your knee to a place it doesn't want to go. The tension is released with the spin. Personally, I would use the ball of the foot, but many throwers do spin on the heel. Yes, you will lose energy by not spinning properly, but there is more potential energy and flexibility in a slightly bent knee and the weight on the ball rather than the heel.

* By Dave Dunipace on Wednesday, December 26, 2001 - 10:26 am:
Morgan, a very important note. Don't lock your plant foot down. It needs to pivot just after the snap to relieve tension on your knee. If you try what I have been telling you, you will not be able to stop turning until you tweak your knee or your foot pivots. Take your pick.

Thanks Ching. The other answer is toes 90 degrees to the target approximately. If you have knee or hip problems, I would recommend opening up the angle to 80 degrees or less. You can still pull through powerfully and not put as much stress on your knee.

Thanks guys, I know all about tweakin' the knee... Several months ago I dislocated my kneecap while attempting to launch a drive. I still can't transfer the weight onto my front foot the way I want to. I'll try ya'lls suggestions... Thanks!

'velocity vectors'

Are you sure you just didn't hear that on Star Trek last night!

Hey, this is serious stuff.

Thomas, don't overdo the tendon bounce, you'll go blind.

Hey keep your clothes on. I don't want to see Thomas' English muffin.

I just received and watched the Scott Stokely instructional video two words.... GET IT.

You're a tease Mark. Could somebody please make it into
a MPEG and put it on a site or e-mail it to me so I don't have to
fish around for it?

Thanks!

Thomas lost his favorite disc in the twigs and berries. It was pretty tacoed from too many worm burners.

Martin, I doubt very seriously that Scott put all that work, time and money into his instructional video so that you get a pirated mpeg of it sent to you via the miracle of email. Go buy one.

Hey Martin,

Weren't you one of the ones asking for the Innova Disc Golf video game for free, too? http://pdga.com/discus/clipart/sad.gif

OK � I have adopted the Bent Elbow Technique with great success over the past few weeks. I throw further and feel a little more under control during my drives. Here is the problem�

I have noticed that I have some pain in my non-plant-foot knee. (my left knee � I throw right handed). Has anyone else experienced this? Help? http://pdga.com/discus/clipart/sad.gif

I think that is being out of shape.. http://pdga.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif

I wish that was the case, but I have always been a gimpy ***** fat guy and never had a knee that hurt http://pdga.com/discus/clipart/proud.gif

<FONT COLOR="ff0000">����</FONT> gimp you are quick on the board..

Gimp, I noticed the same problem the first couple of times I threw after switching to the bent elbow. On videotape, I noticed that I was dragging my non-plant leg rather than stepping through on the follow-through, which was stressing the knee laterally (and reducing my distance). I shortened the cross-over step (left leg behind right) and worked on lifting and stepping through with it on my follow-through. That seems to have taken care of the problem. (YMMV)

Gimp, if you are right handed, then your left leg is your plant leg. That's the leg Dave is talking about. Do what Dave says.

So you pull your left leg a shorter distance past your right on the cross step and concentrate on lifting the leg through on release. Do I understand correctly? Wow, if it were to add distance too that would certainly be an added benefit.

Does the left leg have to be on the ground when I release for maximum distance?

If we are considering the left foot on a right handed thrower to be the plant foot, that means I need to close that angle up a bit. Currently I am over 90 degrees from the target with that foot, about 135 degrees I suppose.

Yes, Gimp, you understand correctly.

As to where the added distance comes from, my guess is that the friction of my non-plant foot against the ground was slowing my spin and momentum, thereby robbing power from the throw.

> if you are right handed, then your left leg is your plant leg.

Hunh? Did I miss something here? I thought for the right leg was the plant leg for RHBH. At least that's the impression I got from the terminology Rick Bays uses in "License to Drive" (http://discgolfonline.com/driving.html). Will somebody clarify, please?

Gimp, your plant foot, for a right handed thrower is your right foot. Left foot would be doing the shortened x step. Personally I would not plant your right foot more than 90 degrees from the target. Your left foot should come off the ground and your right foot pivots. Next is optional. You can step through with your left foot as you follow the spin of your arm and shoulders over the pivot on your right foot. Or, you can bend your left knee and follow through with your knee keeping your left foot on the back or side of your right knee.

question....what contribution is my left arm making while am throwing with my right and doing the twist and release with legs and body?

whoosh, read the archive: 1/15/02

Well I'll be a monkey's uncle. When I throw, my left foot is planted firmly on the ground and my right foot is in the air taking a long step forward. My right foot never touches ground until the follow through. The right leg is my plant leg during follow through, but during the actual throw the left foot is the only foot on the ground, carrying my weight as well as the force of the throw and the step I'm taking with my right foot, which touches ground right around the time the disc leaves my hand.

What am I doing wrong?

Morgan, I cound't help but noticing that in all the pictures of the pro's follow throughs (why are all the pictures of the follow through and not of the actual throw?) they have their left leg off the ground and bent at about 90 deg. Correct me if I'm wrong but it seems that this is a result of pushing off and following through with the left leg. It seems as if the left leg push might be one of the motions that initiates the throw (which would make sense if you are aiming to lead with the hips). I don't really know what I'm talking about but I thought I'd throw my hypothesis out there.
-jv

Morgan, you need to release after your follow through. Then follow through.

LOL, yeah, we need to listen to Randy. He's got this down pat.

The transfer of weight from the left leg to the right leg needs to take place before your release. Otherwise you lose all that momentum that you would gain with that weight transfer. This was one of the things I had to force myself to learn when I was first playing. I used to throw in the middle of the weight transfer. I would never get the most distance out of my throw, and I was usually off balance.

I fooled Rhett and Martyr with the lamest troll ever. Bwwwwaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhh! http://pdga.com/discus/clipart/proud.gif http://pdga.com/discus/clipart/proud.gif http://pdga.com/discus/clipart/proud.gif http://pdga.com/discus/clipart/proud.gif

Martin Roland = Roland Martin = The most renowned TV fisherman of all time. I still remember the time he was fighting that 80 pound Muskee only to have the line break and the pole snap back in his face. Riveting.

Plus, the first word of each line, when read top to bottom, says "You're a fish".

Plus, nobody is dumb enough to actually ask for an MPEG of a copyrighted video. Oh wait, this is the disc golf message board, scratch that.

Rhett, I expect better from you. And Martyr, if you're going to be hanging around Houck, you better sharpen it up, you'll be mincemeat in minutes.

I suppose none of you even noticed that lame attempt to dethrone me with a Double Winter Daylight Savings post in which the first letter of every paragraph spelled out "APRIL FOOL". Sheesh, come on people, you can't beat me that easily.

I am the King of the Trolls! Off with your heads!

Yeah I guess my right foot comes down during the end of the throw. But, I still can't figure out why the RIGHT foot is called the plant foot when the left foot does all the planting (except in the follow through).

I guess maybe it's because the right foot gets planted during the cross step part. Whoopie

Remind me never to dance with you ever again.

Hey Morgan, your left leg IS your plant leg for a chicken wing! http://pdga.com/discus/clipart/proud.gif

Seriously, though, I'm not a big arm, and certainly am not an expert when it comes to D or technique, but based on what I've observed breaking down video of NC pros like Larry Leonard, Walt Haney, Brian Schweberger, Kirk Yoo, and Carlton Howard, it sounds to me like you're opening up and getting to the release point early. (Probably robbing yourself of 30'-50'!) When I throw, my hips are just beginning to open up when I plant my right foot. Of course, from there, the plant-pivot-rip-pull through all happen pretty quickly, but my right leg is definitely planted before my elbow passes my shoulder. So my guess is the right foot is called the plant foot (RHBH) because you PLANT it, pivot, and let 'er rip.

BTW, all, the best thing I've ever done for my game was to get a video camera and follow the aforementioned pros (and others) around the course during a tournament and shoot scads and scads of footage from every possible angle. Get thee to a store and buy a video camera if you don't already have one! There's nothing like watching a particular sequence over and over again, rather than simply trying to remember what they did and how they did it, or to compare/contrast what I'm doing with what they're doing to correct flaws in my technique. (Except maybe Dave D.'s distance tips, and Randy's sky annie tips, and Scott Stokely's video, and field throwing with Dave McQuay, and ... http://pdga.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif)

Quick comments on the leg plant. IMHO, for energy to efficiently transfer from an approach to the disc, the front foot (right foot RHBH) must be planted firmly at the appropriate time during the throw. This stopping or planting of the foot can be thought of as "loading" the muscles in the leg. The greater the load, the the greater the energy transfered. Think action/reaction. The harder you push against the ground, the harder the ground pushes back. Same theory as the wrist stopping talked about by Dave (try throwing while in a continuous run, doesn't work too well.) It is improtant to note that the appropriate load is the greatest controllable load. If too much pressure is put on the leg and not transfered appropriately, the energy will be released often via over-bending of the knee, or unfortunately snapping of a tendon/bone. Everything said in prior posts about continuing the spin is very important to release excess energy. This loading of the leg is vital in dunking a basketball, high-jumping, throwing a shot/javelin/discus/hammer etc. A key teaching point for all t&amp;f throwing events which applies to fris. discs as well is--> After the foot plant, concentrate on first rotating the HIPS toward the target, then the shoulders, and finally the arm (acually--> shoulder, elbow, wrist, disc.)This causes the whip. It sometimes helps in practice to concentrate on delay of the arm and really whipping the hips forward. The rotation achieved can be tremendous. I must add that I have not had world class success at applying these techniques to disc golf( at least not yet.) They are scientifically accurate. Take what you can and tie a bunch of the tips from this thread together and we will all be (hopefully) better.

Well I feel good now that I know that my technique is so terrible and I still rip 'em. I bet I can throw farther than anybody on earth who has such bad technique http://pdga.com/discus/clipart/smile.gif.

How bad is my techniqe? I don't plant the right foot and pivot at all, I take a loooong step with the right foot and push off with the left leg like I'm launching a boat and climbing into it at the same time, and do a sort of Groucho Marx thing with my left knee down to the ground to stretch out the acceleration of the disc, and as soon as my right foot finally hits the ground it's bye bye disc.

Follow through? I usually just fall face down in the mud (same thing happens when I'm launching a boat that I'm climbing into).

* stopping or planting of the foot can be thought of as "loading" the muscles in the leg. The greater the load, the the greater the energy transfered. Think action/reaction. The harder you push against the ground, the harder the ground pushes back. *

One of the biggest faults of many players is how they plant their front foot with a stiff and relatively straight leg. A stiff leg foot plant puts lots of force on the ground, but as one's weight moves forward, it also causes one to become taller and the throw to take an upward trajectory, which then accentuates the natural leftward fade (RHBH) at the end of the throw. The result is a significant limiting of both distance and accuracy, especially accuracy.

The proper foot plant is one part of a relatively smooth process that includes a bent forward knee. As the center of one's weight crosses the forward foot plant location, you start to transfer energy forward on the foot plant by straightening out the leg, not before. One should focus on not having any 'bounce' to one's body height during the process -- the head should stay about the same level through out the throw.

This also applies to medium and short range shots. A stiff leading leg with an overly stong foot plant routinely causes high shots with strong left fades regardless of how far one is trying to throw the disc.

Fred is absolutely correct about a stiff/straight front leg causing high trajectory throws. The transfer of energy to the disc should be in a horizontal rather than vertical direction. The point of my previous post which was intended to be in reference to the posts about which foot is the plant foot was :The front foot is the plant foot: It was kinda lost in my rambling. It is possible to have a solid/strong plant with a bent knee that transfers the energy horizontaly. Most people do it naturally. Concentrate on the wrong feeling and you get what Fred is talking about and propably happens more often than not. Morgan was arguing for the left foot being the plant, but I believe what he is actually talking about is the push that comes from the left foot which is basically the second last step or penultimate step. The left pushes forward, the right foot plants. Again, the plant needs to be solid "strong" or the energy isn't transfered as efficiently, which is one of the reasons a throw doesn't go as far if your front foot slips. I would guess that anyone would have a really hard time throwing without the front plant happening before the release of the disc. I will try throwing a few tommorow without planting my right foot.

Morgan, you've got to video tape your throw and send it to me please. For everyone else, the plant foot is what you twist against. Without the traction of the plant foot, it would be like throwing in zero gravity.

I'll make the tape tomorrow. You oughta get a kick out of it.

http://pdga.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif

So is clue right? Thumb closer to the edge for less stability, closer to the middle for more stability?

I've still been working on editing Dr. D's advice. Currently I've rearranged the posts to be in the same progression as a throw. It's still under construction, so it's not as clear as it will be one day. But if you'd like a copy please send me an e-mail to my NEW address of [email protected] (The old address I gave earlier has been discontinued.)

I've also got another file with the pictures mentioned of Steve Brinster and Juliana Korver, but they may be too big to send as attachments.

If I sent you the file in the past and you'd like the updated version you'll have to send me another e-mail because I didn't save any of those addresses and the account is no longer in service. Sorry.

I'm also starting a distribution list where I'll periodically (about once/week) send out updated versions. If you want to be on this ongoing list please say "Add to Distr. list" somewhere in your message.

Gimp, I think you reversed what Clue said. He said thumb towards the middle for less stability and towards the edge for more stability.

cool - I'll have to try that.

Update: I've now created a restricted Yahoo Group (which will soon be automatically changed to a club). It is named: resources-dg

It is set up so that only I can post to the list. Initially I will only post my updates of Dr. D's Distance Dialogue. But if there is interest, in the future I'll expand to sharing other files of various info that I've collected.

In order to join you must provide a legitimate first and last name. No nick names please. If you're interested send an e-mail to resources-dg ([email protected]). If you've already sent a message to me at [email protected] I'll relay it over.

Lowe, #17976
\ {<BLINK>>>>></BLINK><FONT COLOR="0000ff">O</FONT>}<FONT SIZE=" 2"><FONT FACE="SYMBOL">Y</FONT></FONT>

Lowe -- you're mixing apples and oranges if you are mixing Juliana's pictures of a modified power grip (fan grip) and the power grip.

The various modified power grips use a generally different (and incompatible) technique from the bent arm power grip that Dunipace has described.

The modified power grips generally use a straight line delivery from a deep reach back. As such, don't forget that Dave also noted that Juliana outthrows him with a straight reach back, undoubtably using the modified grip. Dave also notes that those folks setting distance records are using the modified fan grip, hence a different set of body mechanics than that of the power grip throw that he describes. It should also be noted that KC doesn't use a power grip, he uses a modified power grip using throwing techniques other than Dave describes.

This isn't to say that Dave doen't have a viable technique, only that there are others with different techniques who have also been very successful.

I've got another question to add to this. I've been trying to get incorporate some of the advice from this really long thread into my drives, and I think I have more snap (from the feel of the pads of my fingers I do!), but now I've got a new problem. I'm turning everything over. And I mean everything. Rocs, Teebirds, Valks, Firebirds, and even Whippets. The Whippets and Firebirds usually come back at the end, but the others don't. Is this a natural effect of more snap? Do I have to start putting hyzer on every shot to just try to keep them straight? I've been usually trying to release as flat as possible unless the shot needs to curve a lot. Thanks in advance from a slightly confused am.

Fred, either I don't understand what you are saying, or where you got it, or you are quoting me incorrectly. I never advocated any one grip over another. I have tried and been successful with many grips. I currently use several different grips, none of which are the classic power grip. Juliana does not out throw me, or even come close. People have used many different grips to break the world record. Any grip can be used with my throwing method, just as any grip can be used with the reach back method. I have never corrected you before as I believe you are entitiled to your opinion, but you are not entitled to mine. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

Jason, I have the same problem. You are correct about throwing with more hyzer(I think). Try bending at the waist a little more. This has helped me recently. I also try to use some tention in my wrist/thumb to hold the disc with a little hyzer as well. This is hard to explain, but that is the best I can think of right now.

Hope I'm not wrong, and this helps.

Ford

Jason, there are basically two reasons why you may be turning your discs over. First, you are throwing significantly faster with worn, speed sensitive discs. Second, and more likely, is off axis torque or flutter along with more speed. If it is the latter, you may need to adjust your grip or your wrist position. To test whether it is wrist position, throw and monitor your thumbnail position. It should stay relatively flat and level to the ground on a flat and level throw. If it rolls to the right, you are rolling your wrist. If it doesn't roll left or right, but points upward, you are lifting you wrist. Most likely you are rolling. Ideally you want a clean (no flutter) in line snap.

Discraft's web site had a Q &amp; A with Juliana and Scott(when she was with"them")and someone asked about 400' drives. Juliana deferred to Scott saying she could only throw in the 350' range.

Dave, Fred was born without a thumnail, so now what???

Listen to Randy Wimm...that's the secret for distance. Oh, BTW just don't watch how HE throws, just listen....

Hi Mike /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

All right. Who's hanging out at John's house in the middle of the afternoon.

Hi Dave...

* Fred, either I don't understand what you are saying, or where you got it, or you are quoting me incorrectly. I never advocated any one grip over another. *

Hmm... Sorry for any misquotes and misunderstanding.

However, the point that I'm trying to make is that when you use one of the modified power grips, it's very likely one will also adapt a slightly different set of body mechanics to make a different throw than the power grip and bent arm technique that you describe.

The reason for this is the modified power grips as a group allow for a much more relaxed wrist with a wider and quicker range of motion. What is most important is the "relaxed and quick" part of the equation.

The modified power grips may not provide an adequate grasping of the disc for the cocked bent arm technique you've described. Rather, the various modified power grips allow for an slightly different set of body mechanics that take advantage of the 'relaxed and quick' wrist, which is not afforded by the power grip.

There are all sorts of variations depending upon windup, distance, needs, players, etc, but the basic technique is as follows (and is relatively simple to learn).

* Grip the disc on the target side of the disc from the reach back all the way up to just before the release point. This makes it so you don't need a death grip on the disc during the throw. You need just enough grip at the front of the disc to smoothly accelerate the disc along the entire path of the throw. Hence, no need for a full out power grip.

* The disc path is straight at the target. You can practice the disc path in slow motion standing about two discs distance from a wall. The disc path should be about the same distance from the wall during the entire throw. Also, with the grip at the front of the disc, there isn't any chance of scraping your hand or knuckles on the wall. Knuckle scrapping only happens if you prematurely (and improperly) **** the disc during the throw. BTW, it's best to not attempt to throw this close to a wall until you really have it down.

* When the disc nears the forward release point, the relaxed wrist allows the disc to come to be fully cocked against (or almost against) the arm. The forward momentum of the disc naturally finishes off the throw as the "quick and relaxed" wrist is uncocked as the disc is released.

* This uncocking provides more than adequate spin and snap at release.

88888888888

The amount of spin provided varies with the modified grip used.

* The "flip the bird" grip provides the most wrist flexibility, hence the most **** and most spin.

* The fan grip provides the least wrist flexibility of the modified grips, hence the least **** and least spin of the group.

* The stacked grip falls somewhere in between.

It's also true that all of these grips provide for more than adequate disc spin. They also provide for excellent control of the flight plane.

* It seems to me that the fan grip, having less spin also has milder tailing off at the end of shots, so they might go further.

* The flip the bird grip provides for the most spin, which might be valuable in head wind shots as well as shots when you need lots of tail, or skip.

It's also important to reemphasis that this technique and various modified grips work for all sorts of distances, from drives to approach shots, with little to no variation. Some players (aka Climo) carry basically the same modified power grip all the way up thru putting. I usually end up moving my index finger to the outer rim at putting distances, but then typically use the 'flip the bird' not 'stacked' grip that Climo uses.

Jason, one reason many folks have trouble with turning over discs with the power grip is that the power grip provides very limited control over the flight plane.

When you reach higher arm speeds, the disc is going fast enough to generate sufficient lift to overpower the weak flight plane control that the power grip provides.

For example, last summer I was playing along with a up and coming local teen who was having all sorts of trouble like you've described. He had a nice arm pit high release, like you generally should -- but his long drives all ended up going way right. My first thought was like Dave's, he must be throwing beat up discs. I gave him one of my overstable CE Firebirds to throw. To my amazement, it still went hard right. Something else was wrong.

I checked his grip. He was using the classic power grip. I figured he was having flight plane control problems because of the weak flight plane control of the power grip and the high arm speed he was generating. I showed him the modified power grip (probably the flip the bird), handed him another CE Firebird and he immediately ended up making a nice flat shot that tailed off hard left into the parking lot and hit a car... Opps.

However, the disc flight was just as you'd expect for a CE Firebird thrown flat. I just left out the extra complication of throwing a reverse annie, but then I didn't figure the grip change would result in such a radically fast correction to his problem. Also, he didn't have any similarly overstable discs to my CE Firebird, so teaching him that trick wouldn't be of much use... Perhaps next summer? However, after that little lesson, he could throw 340 odd feet straight and reasonably flat with his own set of discs.

Must be the maintenance man.....See you at the icebowl Randy.

Fred,
I hate to say it, but you lost a lot of credibility through the incorrect remarks you made to Dave D.

Lowe, you must first have credibility to lose it. If you need your teeth fixed ask a dentist, if you want to perfect your throwing ask a pro.

The only incorrect remark I made was probably about Dave playing with Juliana in some event this year. I recall him saying she was outthrowing him, but apparently I was wrong, or perhaps misunderstood the comment. Whatever -- my fault.

Dave is undoubtably correct that he uses all sorts of grips when he plays, and is aware of the same with other high end players. It's probably also true that when he uses these other grips, he 'unconsciously' alters his technique to adjust for the weakness and strength of the grip he uses.

The bent arm technique he has been describing is primarily limited to the 'power grip', for the various reasons noted. It's quite possible that he's not aware of any technique adjustments he makes when using other grips.

It's also possible that "outthrowing" doesn't mean throwing further, but throwing more accurately with distance.

Disclaimer -- Most who see me play will say I've got a power arm. There are a few young whipper snappers at the highest levels of play who can throw further. As a GrandMaster Pro, the only time I'm outdriven with any regularity is when I play down to Masters Pro, or lower... And that doesn't happen often.

I've been playing full length par 4 courses (http://www.dolf.com/stuff/y_trees.htm) for more years than most folks have been throwing golf discs. I designed a full length par 4 course before Dave came out with his discs. One of them (the Y course) remained a par 4 course thru out it's lifetime, with only 3 players ever breaking par 4. Aka, distance without accuracy is of limited use.

Disclaimer 2 -- This discussion has caused me to pay much closer attention to the fine points of some techniques I've been using for quite a while (almost 20 years). As noted previously (perhaps in another thread), I typically evaluate (and refine) various techniques and grips by using my left hand as the trainee. I'm now driving about 90 yards left handed with about a 10 yard spread, which is about a 10% improvement. I can throw for about 85 yards with the power grip using Dave's techniques, with about a 15 yard variance of accuracy. I've also noted that my index finger hurts more after using the modified grip than the power grip. Oh well, as I see it, it's weak and needs strengthing.

Sorry, I'm not the sort to be all that interested in PDGA competition, but that's the nature of the beast. I'm more about moving the sport forward, beyond it's limited original vision. I basically like to play. Organized competition for any amount of money doesn't mean that much to me. Never has. I play for the fun of it all -- and I turn any winnings back into the sport at the 100% level. So I guess I'm a "non-profit" pro player as far as competition goes.

Those who play for pocket money, well, I don't want to take anything away from their fun... I have more fun watching my 11 yr old son play soccer, listening to my 13 yr old daughter play the piano, coaching her basketball team and/or playing a match game of DG with my son giving him an 18 stroke handicap.

Also, for those who do count money as a measure of being 'professional', it should also be noted that by working a few hours a week making targets over the last year, I grossed more than the leading PDGA pro's purses. As far as I'm concerned, this only means that I've got to figure out how to "dispose" of the profits by spending more on DG development to cut down on taxes...

Fred, two clarifications. Juliana has out played me several times by playing smarter, throwing shorter and more accurate shots, playing more consistently, and hitting more of her putts. She also outplayed most of the Pro field at the same events. As for distance, she can't compete. Clarification two: My throwing method doesn't necessitate any particular grip. It works with any backhand grip. My method does change throwing mechanics slightly, but has nothing to do with any specific grip mechanics. The only change that may have to be made would result from more power and that usually means just squeezing a little harder on the hit.

Well said Dave. Fred you continue to baffle people by continually trying to justify your lack of credentials and pushing your own products. Nobody cares. Jade was right, stick to dentistry and let a disc professional teach disc.

Hey guys, to quote Pat Benatar:

Cut it out, drop it
Tell me how, baby stop it
Life is too short, so why waste precious time?

Dave and Fred have both contributed a lot of good stuff to this board, but it blows to see dimwits constantly bashing Fred every time he offers an opinion. If you don't like his opinions, fine. If you don't like his targets, fine too. Understand that not every one agrees with you. Read his posts and you might learn something from them, just as you might learn something from Dave's ideas and observations. Maybe you won't learn anything, and if that is the case then move on to the next post and shut the F up.

well said Dan..

well said Dan.. except for the Pat Benatar part. (Like HE said that, it was Patsy Boone ... but sadly she just passed.) . . .. . oops.

Ditto

1. Credentials are what is said in the post.
2. Fred has been quite pleasant of late.
3. I invite anyone that wants to tell people how to post to try doing it sometime. I'm talking about putting forth some opinions in a few paragraphs and leaving yourself open to scrutiny.

Here's to all of those that post for real and attempt to deal with the responses.

ps...I enjoyed the exchange. I also thought Fred's defense of himself was well done. That's the hardest part. Dave's last answer was great.

On with the distance thing!

Can you grip a disc too hard and lose spin/distance?

Thanks,

Ford

JBR, of course you can grip too hard on a short shot, but I believe you mean on a max shot? If so, the only way I can think of is to not let the disc start to pivot. That is, to grip too hard with your lock finger or fingers (which is usually your ring and pinkie) such that the disk never starts to pivot under you thumb and around your pivot point. Pivot point is usually either your index finger or the second knuckle of your middle finger. Once the disc starts to pivot, I don't think you can grip it too tight for max throw, at least I can't.

*Also, for those who do count money as a measure of being 'professional'*

Perhaps I should have been more clear than the word pro.

What I meant was


Having or demonstrating a high degree of knowledge or skill: adept, crack, expert, master, masterful, masterly, proficient, skilled, skillful.

There have been great coaches in many sports that rarely played the sport in which they coached.

There have been great athletes that couldn't coach at all.

Word of the week...irrelevent. /msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif

*Most who see me play will say I've got a power arm. There are a few young whipper snappers at the highest levels of play who can throw further. As a GrandMaster Pro, the only time I'm outdriven with any regularity is when I play down to Masters Pro, or lower... And that doesn't happen often.*
*Word of the week* *There have been great athletes that couldn't coach at all.*

Of course...there have always been coaches that highly irritated some players.

So,
Am I interpreting this right?
It seems that Dave's post alludes to the fact that the main thing that matters in the grip (for distance) is the strength between the thumb and the index finger (tear away point). The other fingers are just there to make sure that the disc pivots at the right time?

Would not the strength of the grip (thumb-index) be incredibly important for accuracy since if the disc tears away too early or too late this would cause the disc to go (respectively, RHBH) left or right. Is this degree of precision really possible? It seems as if a ten-yard difference in distance would then necessitate different grip strengths?????????
-jv

Justin, you got it right up to the last sentence. Yes, every distance necessitates a different grip strength from short putt to long putt and so forth. Yes that degree of precision is possible if you get used to, and concentrate on the hit. Again, as I have said before, your main focus is on the disc at the time of the 'hit' (snap rhythm, power, plus disc angles and position in space) everything else that you do is to accomodate the hit. When you are on your game you can put the disc right on the beam at any speed or distance. Just like magic. But real.

* Would not the strength of the grip (thumb-index) be incredibly important for accuracy since if the disc tears away too early or too late this would cause the disc to go (respectively, RHBH) left or right. *

Depends upon the technique used. If you use a straight pull technique (typically with a modified power grip), there isn't as much a requirement for modifying the strength of grip as the disc is constantly accelerated in a straight line for the entire throw with the grip at the leading edge of the disc, except for the release where the spin is added and grip is broken by the disc snapping out of the hand.

As mentioned before, with this technique, it's possible to use the same grip regardless of distance thrown. The grip strength may change, but it's an unconscious process of exerting just enough grip to hold onto the disc thru the entire acceleration of the throw, which is a relatively smooth process.

If you use a bent arm technique, you've got to have a reasonably strong grip that may increase markedly with distance. This is because when the disc crosses your body, the grip is on the side of the disc, not the leading edge. As the disc reaches the release point, you've got to have sufficiently strong grip to have accelerated your grip foward to the leading edge of the disc just before release. There are lots of ways to goof up in accuracy with this technique, not enough or too much grip strength being two.

When you hear (or see) someone who tees off and the disc ended up going behind the tee, it's usually a symptom of too much strong a grip, or too slow a release, or too fast a unwinding... All symptoms of the complexity of the technique.

* Is this degree of precision really possible? It seems as if a ten-yard difference in distance would then necessitate different grip strengths? *

I doubt one needs to be that precise. I fall in the same opinion as Mr Climo, who claims to use the same modified power grip for most every BH throw, regardless of distance. He claims to use a stacked grip, I use the flip the bird grip, which is basically the stacked grip with the finger slightly extended.

The extended finger relaxes the wrist tendons bit, which seems to provide me a notch more control of the flight plane for hyzers and annies. I find myself sliding the middle finger down to the stacked grip for power BH rollers for a balance of grip and flight plane control.

What modified power grip works for any situation is a matter of personal preference and experience. I can play an entire round with either the stacked or flip the bird without much thought one way or the other about the grip, with the same technique otherwise...

There are undoubtably many other players who fool around changing grips by distance. To each their own...

Grip is whatever you feel comfortable with. I use different grips. For tailwind drives with my CE Valkyrie, I use a power grip. For headwind drives with my CE Valk, I use a 3 finger grip. For drives with my Z-XL, and all throws with my Roc, I use a fan grip. I think, you should use whatever grip gives you the best feel for the disc.

What grip do you use with your MRV ?
<FONT SIZE="-2">had to ask</FONT>

* Grip is whatever you feel comfortable with. *

Don't limit your technique by your grip.

First choose your technique, then sort thru the various grips that work best for you with that chosen technique.

Not every grip works equally with every technique.

Every technique has some grips that are better suited for them than others.

-------------------

What grip works for one guy, may not work for you and visa versa.

This is because there are a wide variety of finger sizes AND digit lengths AND total finger lengths AND hand sizes, wrist lengths, etc.

For example, I've got medium to small fingers that get lost (stuck) in the deep lid of Aviars and can't grip a basketball with one hand for a stuff shot. My smaller fingers work better with the shallower Tank, Rhyno or U2 (pro) for approach and putting. I don't have any trouble at all getting a good grip on a thin lid driver like the Valkyrie.

Someone with bigger fingers will probably have to adjust their grip accordingly. They may find the deep lid of the Aviar or other deep lid putt and approach discs more to their liking than the narrower rim putter and approach discs. They may find the narrower lip discs shoot out of their hand to easily.

As far as that goes, one of the under appreciated features of disc choice is to have a bag of discs that have about the same rim depth (as well as around the same weight). This way they will all have about the same feel and release speed. The exception would be for putters (which are typically heavy) and perhaps a special lighter wieght disc for going sharply around corners in short distances. You know, fly discs, not flying bricks...

Yes, I meant on a big drive. My 'pivot' point is the tip of my middle finger. I think it is anyway. When I get a pretty good rip on a drive I can feel a blister/pain on the tip of my middle finger. I use a power grip on most everything except puts and short approaches. I think that I have been trying to grip and rip so hard that I am sacraficing spin. Any thoughts O' Driving Masters?

Thanks,

Ford

By Jedidiah L. Brightbill on Friday, January 25, 2002 - 12:32 am: "Grip is whatever you feel comfortable with..."

It's a school night Jed. what are doing up after midnight? are you coming to the Ice Bowl at Lakeview.?

<FONT SIZE="-2">sorry for the thread stray.</FONT>

Unfortunatly, I am not a member of the PDGA, and not a Sky Pilot, so it would cost about $60 to play the tournament. If it was just the 20 juniors fee, then I would play.

Wait, the Ice Bowl is at Lakeview? Or is it 1 round at each course. It it is Lakeview, I would have to throw all Rocs(160 foot shots over water).

For my MRV, I use the fan grip for all shots but rollers, which I use a power grip.

Sorry for the four posts in a row, but I think you are misunderstanding my comment about grips. I didn't say "Use whatever grip you feel comfortable with." I did say, "Use whatever grip gives you the best feel for the disc." Since Rocs are deep rimmed, I use a fan grip so I don't grip lock it. The Z-XL doesn't have a wide beveled edge, so I can get a good release with a fan grip. I can't use a fan grip on my CE Valks, because the wide beveled edge and low profile keeps my from getting a strong grip(It rips out too early). How about, "Use whatever grip gives you the best control over the disc", which is what I do.

I just sent a video to Dave Dunipace yesterday of me throwing (as he requested) just to show him the worst backhand technique in history. Just for fun, I'm throwing chicken wings and sidearms too (hey, why send a 2 hour video of just a few backhands?)

What he will see is me throwing in 8 inches of snow, but that won't stop me, the mountain man of the Adirondacks. One of those backhand drives in the video was measured at approx 400 feet (the last one I threw) and one of the chicken wings was around 300 and one sidearm was around 350. The folks at Innova will enjoy it for a hoot. "Check out this old guy from the message board, still thinks he can throw. He's as old as us!"

Oooohhhh. Crunch time. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

Dave, I finally got a chance to get out and try your advice from a few days ago (what is the position of your thumbnail after release). I should have realized right after reading your post that I'd never be able to check for sure, since I tend to hit myself in my back with my follow through. Although I'm sure trying to look at my hand on my back would amuse my friends /msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif. What I was able to do was just concentrate on keeping it level (or what felt like level as it was moving), and my drives have straightened out a lot.

For further amusement: While playing this weekend with some friends, some of them weren't watching my drive on the 6th hole (which was the first open/non-forrest hole on this course). Well, when I drove, I got a pretty good snap sound on my drive. They immediately jumped around yelling "What the heck was that?!?". They hadn't heard that before, and were completely confused. /msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif

Thanks again for all the advice!

-Jason

Dave, do your shoulders hold constant speed during the throw or do you accelerate the shoulder turn going into the hit?
I'm still not getting better distance, but yesterday I threw 5 discs 380 and they all ended up in a circle with a diameter of about 6ft! That brings me to a different issue, I throw all my discs in identical flight paths now.
-jv

Justin, I am not sure, but I think the shoulders turn at a relatively constant velocity. The most important part of the shoulder turn is pulling through the end of the snap. If you do this properly, your right shoulder will end up about 180 degrees from the target. This presupposes that your weight is up on your pivoting right foot.

Dave, I keep messing with my form and I don't know if this old mule is ever going to figure out better technique. However, the Archangel is the best disc you've designed yet for me. When I let it go with smooth hyzer it just comes over and glides straight until it is done spinning. Awesome disc.

Thanks Stan. You're a young mule./msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif I hope you're still taking the magic elixer I told you about.

Yep, just about as often as I do the exercises my therapist told me to do. Danged mule.

I have seen Morgan's video tape. He can throw. He was throwing in snow, but he was throwing fairly well. His overhand wrist flip was pretty good. His sidearm was very good. His backhand needs a little help, but it wasn't bad. He does throw off his front foot like everyone else, but with no follow through. If he learns to pull through the snap, he will be able to throw pretty far as I saw no physical problem at all. Morgan had taped Steve Brinster too. Brinster's form is the same as mine, he is just younger, quicker, and more flexible.

Dave,

It was suggested that I come hear to give some tips on distance, But I can see that you are doing a great job already. I know that the advice you gave me years ago is still an integral part of my game today. I just wish that you could help me with my putting!

Craig, is it true that you can throw an Aviar 400'?

Actually Stan, I can throw an aviar about 450' but my longest throw is about 500'

I just have a problem putting from 30' or closer!

Okay, now I need to add three more things to my list of distance secrets: Be younger, be quicker and be more flexible. Dave, would you please give me a few hints on how I could become younger?

Hey Dave, I actually follow through a little better when I'm not throwing in snow. The main thing I was trying in that video was not to fall on my tush. Thanks for saying I can throw. Gives me a good vote on confidence coming from you!

Needless to say, I can throw a lot better on a concrete tee pad or rubber pad than snow. You really can't get a good cross step in snow. But the two times I slipped on the snow, that was comic relief, pretty funny stuff huh?

Suzette, yoga/stretch, aspirin/alkaseltzer, calcium citrate. Think young feel young. Excercise and drink beer. I don't do the yoga cause I'm lazy and stupid. (All the advice is serious and scientifically based except beer. That's fun, but that will keep you young too.)

Hi Craig, nice to hear from you. I'll see you at the National Doubles hopefully. Maybe we can do something for your putt./msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif

Stan, Craig could throw an Aviar over 400ft when he was a little whipper snapper back at La Mirada. I wasn't as impressed with that as I was when he would throw right through trees. He would blow the leaves right off the trees and park his disc next to the basket. Then miss the putt./msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif

I find that Liquor is better than beer for keeping you young. If you're pickled then you can't get any older! /msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif

'I don't wanna' play anymore. Let's go drink and throw darts'

Ford

Dave,
If only I could lose my pttuing reputation, it has haunted me on and off for years as you know. If you could help me with my putt , I would be forever grateful not only to you, but the awesome plastic you make that allows me to throw like I do!

Craig, I tried to email you, but it bounced back. Waassup?

Drive for show putt for DOUGH!

Remember all, throwing far just means you can throw it farther into trouble!

I can't throw very far! but keep collecting!

Is noputtinsavage the same as Craig? What a nickname ! For years I was a poor putter and I stole a phrase from Outlaw Josie Wales to write on my putters , "Endeavor to Persevere". I finally decided to endeavor to practice and I don't have to write that on them anymore.(most of the time)

yep he be the same guy..

Stan, what did you do to lose the poor putting syndrome?

Ah, sit back and I'll tell you the tale. How after a tournament in Columbia S.C. I had blown yet another chance for a win. Winless I was. 5th's and 4th's and 3rd's and 2nd's but somebody always outputted me and I remained winless. I analyzed the number of putts inside 30' that I had missed during that 4 round tournament. I had missed an average of 4 putts per round from inside 30'. Pitiful you say? Indeed I says. This wasn't the first time, but for some reason, something snapped. If only I had hit half of those putts I would have finished 8 strokes better! That would have given me a 3 stroke win. Why was I so bad at putting? For starters, the basket outside in my driveway had never really seen action. Neither had I really done any putting practice other than the frantic search for a putt just before the round starts at various tournaments. I developed a plan based on some advice from Johnny Sias, a not-too-shabby putter. Johnny is ,in fact, an incredible putter who put me away with his putting on many occasions. I purchased 5 identical putters.(glo-aviars) I marked a spot on my driveway 30' from the basket. I warmed up for about 3 or 4 minutes and then went to the 30' mark.I putted 100 putts and counted how many I hit. I started out with 50% or less accuracy. That gave me a measure to guage my progress by. Keeping track of my progress really helped keep me motivated. By the time I quit practicing, a few years ago, I was in the upper 70 to mid 80% range. I used this routine of warming up briefly and then putting 100 putts 3 times a week. It only takes about 35-40 minutes to warm up and then take 100 putts. Putt the 5 putters and then go pick them up and go back to your mark. Repeat. It was about 6 months after I started this routine that I finally began to get the 30' putts into the basket during tournaments. Winning is cool. Although I would recommend what worked for me, the main thing is disciplined routine practice. There was no shortcut for me, it took following the advice of someone who could back it up with performance.
Game on ! Get out and practice!

thanks Stan I will be applying your words of wisdom as well.. Since putting is my downfall..thanks again

My pleasure. Johnny Sias told me to go to 10' and putt til I could hit 10 in a row. Then to back up one step until I could hit 10 there , and so on. I just modified slightly what he suggested. The main thing is a consistent disciplined practice routine.(I'm too lazy to do it anymore.Do as I did, not as I do!)

I love to practice putting! But alas, I have no basket and no where to put one. I normally warm up with about 40 putts and then play putting games. One fun one is to start from 4m out and throw 5 discs, for every disc you make, move back one m (next round), for every disc you miss move in one m if you hit metal and 2m if you don't. You win the game by getting to 15m. I have yet to get to 15m, 14 I can hit though. Playing games and moving distances makes it more fun and gives you structured practice at every length.
-jv

Stan, I have always found it difficult to focus just putting in the yard, that's why I sold my basket. I seemto do better going to the course and putting 30' from 10 different positions on each hole on the course. This gives you a variety of shots to work on.

Seeware, from what I hear, it's not just your putting game that's needing help. LOL (:0

Good work Stan. Did you notice a change in how you mentally approach a putt as well.

alright Laviar don't get me started on you .. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

One mistake I see some beginners make when practicing putting is they practice these 50-60ft putts and then can't understand why they choke on 10-20ft putts in a tournament.

I like to take about 8-10 putters, and start at about 7paces (20')and putt all the discs. 0-1 misses move back a step and putt. 2 misses stay put and putt. >2 misses move up a step and putt. Play for about 15-30 minutes. Work on your standard style most of the time, however throw in some alternate stances and shots that you need to work on. If you typically throw with one foot ahead of the other, than throw in some stradle putting. Likewise work different shot angles (you'll need them around obstacals and on windy days!). I prefer to start and finish with my typical style. I also like to finish on a positive note, so when it's time to quit I'll continue until I hit 'em all (OK so I might have to move in pretty close some days)

After some time on this regiment you're going to be getting more confident on those 15-30' putts. Your confidence and ability to hit the shorter putts will now translate into more confidence and ability at hitting those longer putts. Why? First you are not going to be scared at the prospect of needing to hit a 15' comeback putt. Second, and more importantly, you now have greater control at hitting a spot 15-30' away. How will that help out on a 45 footer? Think of a bowler. They don't aim for a spot on the pins, they aim for their mark on the boards. Likewise, when you know the flight pattern of your putts you can pick a spot 1/2 to 2/3 of the way to the pin and hit that mark with the right angle and speed and CHING! You'll be turning those 40 footers into 20 footers.

I have an efficiency question for Dave about the elbow back technique. I have been trying to get my dad to try it, but he doesn't want to. He says he doesn't need to, because every baseball power hitter has a different swing, and they still hit home runs. He also says that he doesn't think it is more efficient than reaching straight back. I have tried to tell him that when you reach straight back you lose centrifugal force by having to bring the disc back into your body again. He then says the line about the baseball swing, and "If it was so great than everbody would be doing it." So I would like to know exactly why it is more efficient, and what the benifits are. I also tell him if his form is as good as mine, than why can his 15 year old son consistantly outdrive him by 50 feet. It certainly isn't because i'm stronger than him. If he would listen to what helped me so much, he would throw much better. I know he can throw better than he does now, but his mental block is keeping him from trying what I have been attempting to teach him.

Jed,

See the archives at:
Sunday, January 13, 2002 - 08:40 pm
Friday, January 11, 2002 - 06:23 pm

But here's some info for your dad from those discusions:

Pros reach back techniques
Q: Do any of these pros -- Barry Schultz, Cameron Todd, Todd Branch, Dave Feldberg, Avery Jenkins - use the bent elbow technique?
A: No, I don't think any of these guys use it as a starting position, but they all use a lot of elbow for acceleration as all good long throwers do. Another thing they all do is to pull through the hit strongly. Watch the finishing position of their arms. They all have a very strong hit (wrist and fingers) to pull through too. Avery and Dave are particularly strong drivers. My technique just makes it a little easier to do what these guys are doing already using a little harder starting position. As a consequence of my starting position, on a good day my distance off the tee is comparable to three of the five. I don't think I would have a prayer keeping up with them using their technique (starting position).

� Juliana Korver's reach back:

(Picture of Juliana Korver's reach back [1998] at http://www.innovadiscs.com/juliana/Gallery/arm.html)

Dave D's response to the picture of Juliana's reach back:
Juliana is doing the reach back method. She has not as yet incorporated the bent arm method. Everything else about her form is fine. If she had her elbow bent in the picture instead of straight, she would be doing it. It is that simple. The result of doing it would be more acceleration into the hit. More acceleration is more potential force/energy to work the wrist finger springs. Also more potential energy/force to cause the disc to rip out from your grip. To use all of the extra force created by the additional acceleration, you would then need a tighter/stronger wrist with a tighter/stronger grip, and a more powerful pull through. I really wish we had some diagrams or videos as they are often worth a thousand words. The reality is though, that some people get it intuitively and some have to get it by rote. Some people never get it. Those are the ones that don't use their imagination. Step one would be to throw normally, but remember to chop your elbow later and quicker even if you start from a straight arm position .

This is a reminder that I've got a restricted Yahoo Group named: resources-dg where I will post the collected, edited, and rearranged version of all of Dave D's Distance secrets from this thread. The posts are all put in the order of a throw. I've also added a Table of Contents, an Index, and places to insert pictures. I'm still revising and reorganizing it, so about once per week (usually Wed.) I send out the latest version.

THe Yahoo group is set up so that only I can post to the list. Initially I will only post my updates of Dr. D's Distance Dialogue. But if there is interest, in the future I'll expand to sharing other files of various info that I've
collected.

In order to join you must provide a legitimate first and last name. No nick names or aliases please. If you're interested in joining send an e-mail to [email protected]</a>

Lowe
17976
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* If she (Juliana) had her elbow bent in the picture instead of straight, she would be doing it. It is that simple. *

The picture you refer to is of her just at or after the release of the disc (the red blur). In which case, it is normal for the arm to be straight, as it is in most anyone's technique.

It's also very inaccurate to say that the reach back straight pull technique doesn't use a bent arm. Your comments show a general misunderstanding of the reach back/straight pull technique.

For one, the reach back technique has a very powerful use of a bent arm. A strong bent elbow is the only way you can get from the reach back to the release in a straight line pull of the disc.

As far as the bent elbow goes, the reach back technique provides for a very late maximum bend to the elbow. This occurs when the elbow points to the target and the disc is at the center of the spine. The uncoiling of the elbow from that point on, coupled with proper foot action, waist and shoulder turn provides for enormous whip and acceleration at the end of the throw. This is also accomplished without need for an overly strong grip.

In fact, an overly strong power grip actually interfers with the ability to properly execute this technique, starting at the reach back. If you use a power grip with a reach back, you end up prematurely cocking the wrist, which puts the grip on the outside of the disc, which in turn adds all sorts of timing/accuracy problems to the technique. You "might" get good distance, but with accuracy that varies.

The result for a well developed reach back/straight pull drive is effortless distance coupled with deadly accuracy.

Hey Iq, I know we are deviating from this thread, but, yes. I got so confident that I never had to think about how my feet were pointed or if my grip was too tight or how much bounce to get in my knees etc. Therefore my mental approach was "I know this putt is going in." There are numerous variables in body posture and form that I was only able to identify and then practice them until they became part of my putt, by going through the practice routine I described. I am able to execute all those variables (when I am on) without thinking about them. If there are weaknesses in your form and you are thiking about them while preparing to putt, your focus is not entirely on that one sweet link.Some people like to practice from all over the place, short and long , behind the hedge and over the car. That is great if you have time. From my experience, the gotta hit putts are from about 30' and in. Get those down pat and see what happens to your game.
As for the back yard being more difficult, I recommend that you conquer the backyard and then the course will be a pushover. My kids used to ride bicycles around me at times when I was putting. My daughter would come out and practice cheerleading,while I was putting. Almost nothing bothers me out on the course. It was great training for developing focus and concentration. Try it, or some variable thereof.

jedidiah, there are two things you can show your father or have him try. Have him try to spin his shoulders quickly with the disc at arms length. Then spin with the disc in tight. Then have him try to throw without bending his elbow. Then have him throw by accentuating the elbow chop and pull through. If he doesn't get it at that point, he's probably not going to.

He knows that he should keep is close to his body as he is pulling through so the disc will have faster acceleration. He just doesn't think that keeping the disc close at the start of the motion makes a difference. He says that the little bit of centrifugal force lost in bringing the disc back to your body again is insignificant. If you could, will you give the exact physics reasons why the elbow back is more effecient. Examples don't work for him, because my throwing is enough of an example as it is. I have also used a figure skater's spins as an example. He was a math major is college, and taught math for many years, and he needs logical reasons, not examples. The only way to convince him is to have the physics reasons laid out in front of him. Would you be able to do that?

Can the moderators delete certain posts from within these threads? If you can, please delete that turd Morgan just laid on the most useful thread ever on this board. Morgan, please go back to the other threads that have already degenerated into pissing matches.

Stan, I seem to have the touch in the backyard. I have attempted to do the exact same routine that I use during play when setting up my putt in the backyard. Recently, it has not translated onto the course. It is like I forget what I was doing in the backyard. I am a student of the putt and really feel like I know what I should be doing when out on the course. Did you ever have this problem in your transition from bad putter to good putter?

Ahem...to you folks interested in putting, may I make a polite request? Do you think that you can start another thread to talk about putting? You have good ideas, but I'd like to be able to check this thread for ideas about distance. I don't mean to be rude, but I'd just like to stick to this good conversation.

(For me personally, since I'm also collecting and disseminating all of Dr. D's wisdom on adding D it makes my job easier if we stay on track.)

This may be off the subject, but someone's pet peeve in another thread was about people who couldn't create hyperlinks. Mine is monitor wannabe's. Why not create the putting link for them?

Thanks Stan. Excellent advice on putting. I'll be sure to include you in my acceptance speech when I win my next tournament.

Chris-
Done. The new thread
"Throwing Tecniques: Putting practice" (http://pdga.com/discus/messages/621/4475.html?1012421152) is now in operation.

Your wish is my command.

To those who don't have ready access to a basket, my father suggested a novel idea. Take a strap or rope and hang it somewhere in your yard. To make it more realistic, I painted the strap at about mid-chain heighth. After a while, I noticed that I was developing a basketball-shot type of putt. So, I tied the strap to a block of wood and planted a brick under the wood. Now, the putt doesn't "count" unless I hear the wood knock the brick. After throwing numerous practice putts at a one inch wide strap, when I make it out to the course, the baskets look HUGE.

Sorry, I didn't see the new thread.

Jedidiah, the math would be the same either way. The most pertinent formulae would be F=ma and (Pi)D/T=V. Both of these heavily depend on arm and shoulder turn speed. Acceleration/timing is pivotal to both formulas as D gets larger we also want T to get smaller, but that is impossible unless you are super strong or very quick in moving the disc from close to your body to its distal position at launch. In order to be very quick, it is helpful to have the disc close to spin the shoulders quickly even before the elbow moves. The elbow motion along with the shoulder turn and upper arm motion produces the acceleration needed to produce a big Force. All this aside, there are many other things that can add significantly to distance, besides the starting position. Get your dad to try those and let him start with a straight arm. There are many excellent drivers that start with a straight arm.

LIKE ME!

/msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif

FORD

oops! Forgot....WHAT'S UP DOC!?

Ford

Dave, can a high velocity throw be outdistanced by a slower throw with more spin? (Of course all other variables shall remain constant)

There must be some relationship between velocity and spin. Are we dealing with gyroscopic properties? Why a gyroscope defies gravity still blows my mind; just as it did when I was a kid...

Are some discs better suited for hi-speed/med-spin as opposed to med-speed/hi(er)-spin?

I seem to do best with T-Birds and Valkyries. On calm days I prefer the TBs. When there's some wind, I feel I can use that wind better with the Valks. (Stronger headwinds call for my Firebird) Is there some rationale here or am I still just (pause) full of it...

Circle 2, tough questions. The first question is too difficult answer in a short space, but yes in several different scenarios. There is a direct relationship to velocity and spin for each throwing style. For some discs, the spin does impart some lift. Most of our high speed drivers are suited for hi speed med spin as opposed to our Roc, which is better suited for higher spin medium speed. Wham-O type discs are ill suite for high speed medium spin as many disc golfers would find if they tried to throw a regular Wham-0 like a golf disc. Your choice of discs is the same as mine.

The upcoming edition Winter 02 #60 issue of the DGWN has a section that includes various 7 frame pictures of different pros driving by Theo Pozzy. See below for info on the web link.

Most of the guys (like Steve Rico &amp; Barry Schultz) use some variation of the straight reach and pull I've described.

If anything is different from my technique, the trend for grip position is to have the little finger of the grip at the leading edge of the disc at reachback with the rest of the grip towards the outside. It works... I use it sometimes without thinking about it.

Ruth Steele, a lady DGer, is the only example of a player using the bent arm technique that Dave seems to be describing.

It's hard to see exactly what grips anyone is using. Barry's grip seems to have the thumb in the same place on the lid as I have for either the flip the bird or stacked grip. The other's seem to vary between some sort of modified power grip (stacked, flip the bird, fan), and the power grip.

I also share Barry's initiating motion of putting the disc out in front of me before the reach back -- something that Theo says is unusual... I use it to help establish a mental reference point for the release.

Steve Rico, probably is using a power grip with a slight cocking at reach back which seems to move forward before crossing the body.
While I'm sure he's probably getting great distance, he bends over a bit much for my leaner body type.

I also take a modest exception to Theo saying that Steve Rico has a better follow thru than Barry Schultz. Rico looks to me like he's going to rip his arm off someday. He needs to get his back foot moving forward to spin off the throw more to prevent injury when he becomes an old timer.

While I've not had the pleasure of seeing Barry Schultz play, seems we have similar body types as well as driving/throwing techniques, all the way down to the follow thru.

Theo says you can view the drive videos at his personal web site. (http://www.attbi.com/~tpozzy/prodrives.htm) However, the link "http://www.attbi.com/~tpozzy/prodrives.htm" wasn't working when I tried it tonight. Perhaps it's not be uploaded yet, or he's exceeded some traffic rules for personal sites, or I typed it in wrong... Whatever...

It's an excellent article. Good work Theo.

Also, as a DGWN advertiser, I usually get my copy of the DGWN news about a week before I get my subscription copy thru my PDGA membership. So, some of you might have to linger at your mail box for a week or two more to see what I'm talking about...

Hmm... I tried the video and got aolhelled (aol crash) by the aolhell media player.

Actually, the source of the crash could have been the house of kludge (otherwise known as Microsoft). It sells the computer virus otherwise known as Windows ME. My laptop is infected with it.

That virus can be cured by an antiviral medication known as Windows XP

I couldn't get the video to load either.... Bandwidth Overload.

Those are great videos but its not letting me save them to my hard drive. How can I do it?

Hey Fred. Your problem's not with Windows, it's with AOHELL! Everyone I've ever talked to that uses it has nothing but problems. Try a different program. Real player always rocks, and Windows media is pretty good as well. That's the problem with these [email protected] computers, there's always glitches. Why I got out of programming as a undergrad degree.

HI DOC!

Ford

It seems to me that alot of people are missing the points Dave is trying to make. If you look at videos of Rico, Schultz, and Stokley they are all finishing with the techique Dave is describing. Leading with the elbow and pulling thru the hit (hard), with good follow thru. They are starting in the reach back postion which may give them momentun to get the disc started. I think Dave is trying to teach the most efficient way to start, with the disc near the body. Once you understand the tecniques he is teaching then you can tweak it to fit your skill level and athletic ability. No technique will work without practice. There is not a secret that will add 75 feet of distance with out practice. Correct me if I,m wrong.

Thanks Bill /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif That is right. They are doing everything I have been describing except the disc starting position. Watching those guys throwing is helpful, but feeling what those guys are feeling is essential. That takes practice, and knowing what to focus on.

off the subject, but was fun putting it together anyway!

'let my driving form flow, in token steps suggsting rythm'
'that will not forsake me 'til my body is old and done'

'while the sunlight will glow, strange plastic through the air is thrown'
'til distances we've only imagined become reality'

'DD's form becomes clear, and I grin from ear to ear'
'As my disc flys sweetly to the basket'

'Reach back and pull straight through, be sure to get good follow through'
'And feel the plastic rip from your fingers'

'Can't explain the feeling I feel, as I hear the snap ring clear'
'and see my disc fly WAY down the fairway'

'Dave and all, great thanks to you'
'Whenever we meet the drinks aren't on you'

'We'll drink and celebrate the great drives we've thrown'
'I can't wait for this [email protected] Ice to be gone'

'Dave can't throw the disc for you, from wind up to follow through'
'his goal is to shed light, you must master'

I tried to write this after 'Lady with a Fan/Terrapin Station' I hope you all enjoy. If not... /msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif

Ford
'You need to control your dog. You know there is a leash law!'

* If you look at videos of Rico, Schultz, and Stokley they are all finishing with the techique Dave is describing. *

The primary difference would appear to be how the grip of the disc is at midpoint (crossing the chest). Ruth Steele, who uses the full bend arm technique, is the only one shown that has their wrist/grip on the outside of the disc at midpoint. The rest appear to have the disc held towards the front to one degree or another.

This is an important point, at least as far as accuracy goes. If you start the throw with a bent arm, you've got an additional angular momentum complexity to your arm movement that the reach back technique doesn't have to deal with. This additional complexity translates into less consistant accuracy.

* I think Dave is trying to teach the most efficient way to start, with the disc near the body *

The most efficient way to start is best displayed in Barry Schultz's series of photos from behind (http://home.attbi.com/~tpozzy/prodrives.htm). (DGWN #60, pg 70) For starters, he puts the disc out in front where he wants to release it. Aka, the direction the disc is to go.

I typically add an extra preliminary step to this by relaxing with my eyes closed facing perpendicular to the direction of the throw, toes on line of throw, arms at my side. With my eyes closed, I take a deep breath, relax and raise both arms to my shoulders and open my eys and sight down my right arm to the target. If I don't have my line up right, I'll adjust my feet, go back to the relax position and repeat. When you are throwing 120 yards or more, a little tweek of the aim here or there ends up being 15 or more yards to the right or left.

What isn't readily apparent in the Barry pictures is how this disc position is also just essentially the same disc position in space that he achieves at the full reach back. In the back shots, follow the left foot plant position in #2 for verification. In the side shots, track how Barry holds the disc in the pocket of the guy with the blue shirt in the background from #1 to #3.

In other words, the wind up for the reach back dances around this point in space until the disc ends up in the full reach back position at the same point that the throw started in. The disc could almost be nailed to a post. The disc doesn't move much during this phase of the throw. What does move is the thrower's feet and body relative to the disc.

There is another fine pro tip, that wouldn't showup without more detailed study of Barry's full range of technique (but it's something I do). The initial forward disc position varies in height and angle according to the angle of the flight plane (flat, hyzer, anhyzer) one wishes to use for the throw. The adjustment is generally made by bending at the waist. When you achieve the reach back position, the disc should be held in whatever angle and position it had at the start position.

The verification of the validity of this technique can be seen in the Steve Rico pictures. He is shown throwing a strong hyzer, which requires a bending at the waist. Check Steve's disc position in #1, #2 and #3 relative to his left foot. The disc position and angle are essentially the same point in space at this point of the throw. His technique is essentially the same as Barry's only Steve is bending at the waist, with a lower chest midpoint, which results in a hyzer drive.

When Barry's body, feet and reach back position has been achieved (#3), he is fully coiled to start the forward progress of the disc, AND his body has a forward momentum of a practiced and known value (aka, the momentum created by dancing around the stationary disc position).

Note how his right arm is in direct opposition to the intended direction of throw.

Also, note how his left arm is fully extended in almost complete opposition to the reach back (#3) and how it quickly moves to his left pocket in frame #4. This translates into creating spin of the shoulder. This power is coupled with the foot movement that turns the hips. This all initiates the whip that uncoils the bent elbow at midpoint for a straight arm at release.

There are some important points to note about Barry's follow thru. His left arm moves away from his pocket and out at release to help start the unwinding of the power of the throw. This also causes his left foot to move forward. As a result, he has a more controlled and perhaps less injury prone release to that of Steve Rico. The Jarvis twins also have a somewhat similar left arm movement to their follow thru.

It's also worth noting how Barry's initial forward disc placement #1, his reach back #3, release #5, and disc flight (#6 &amp; #7) are all in a STRAIGHT line.

Distance AND accuracy is the name of the game in power disc golf.

In the interest of bringing the previous post together with the article it referenced, I've provided a copy of the previous post to the Pozzy article on distance secrets.

Nice poem Ford./msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

Thanks Dave! I never claimed to be good. But I figgered I'd give it a shot anyway (busy day in the office) /msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif

Ford

dave, or anyone.... i think alot of my problem in trying to get more distance is in the follow thru. it seems i have little to no follow thru. how much distance can i expect to gain with a proper follow thru and is it that important?

Aaron, follow through is the result of a strong pull through the end of the snap. It is one of the most important things you need to do in order to get distance.

If you are having trouble saving the videos to the hard drive. After you download them go to temp internet files (use explorer as netscape has a one meg limit for its cashe) in the windows file. The files should be in that folder and if you just transfer them to another folder your golden.
-jv

Dave, when you say follow through is the most important thing to get distance, it makes me excited, because I think that once I learn how to pull through the snap like you say, I'll get some big D numbers. I have already gone past 400 feet WITHOUT a follow through, I am only wondering how far I can get when I start to follow through. You saw my video, and without follow-through one of those throws went over 400, we measured it after.

I know that the cross-step more than doubled my distance when I first started using it. Wow, what a difference, took me to a whole new level. Does follow-through add yet another level, or just a few feet?

I can't start until my back gets better, maybe a month or two.

I got Scott Stokley's video yesterday. There are a lot of good tips on the video. I can't wait till all this friggin ice melts so I can get out there and execute some of his tips. I'm going to hid it from my friends /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif, it is all mine!!! (evil laugh here)

Morgan, I said follow through is the result of a strong pull through the snap. Then I said it (referring to the pull through) is one of the most important things in distance. From my point of view the most important thing by far is the hit, which is where the tendon bounce occurs. A quick pivot into a strong rip with strong fingers and wrist get my vote as the most important element. Next would be on either side of the hit, either a strong pull through or very quick acceleration into the hit. Following these three primary factors would be helping factors like footwork, footing, strength, flexibility, specific mechanics (such as the bent elbow start), quick and powerful hip and shoulder turn, using your center of gravity effectively, etc

The force generated by a high-powered drive must be dissipated or absorbed >>> with a follow through. At the "hit", your arm has reached peak velocity due to hip, trunk, and shoulder acceleration. That energy must be absorbed or "decelerated" by your entire body. Ever wonder why your pec muscle is sometimes sore? It is one of your primary arm "decelerators" that must stretch or negatively contract to absorb that energy. But since we are using our entire body to generate this force, our entire body must be utilized to decelerate or absorb this energy; shoulders, trunk, hips, all the way down to our follow through footwork.

Think about this analogy... If a car is hit from behind with the brakes applied, there will be significant frame damage due to rapid acceleration followed by rapid deceleration; but if the car is allowed to "follow through" (no brakes applied), that energy will be transferred into forward motion. In other words, let your entire body's musculature (and tendons, ligaments, joints, etc) absorb the force through "motion", rather than hitting the brakes and increasing the likelihood of "frame" damage.

A sound follow through is, in essence, giving your body "permission" to generate more force at the "hit". Our bodies know their limitations; unfortunately, sometimes we do not. Pain is a sign that we are exceeding those limitations. How else can our bodies communicate this back to us?...

Water is probably involved in every funtion the body performs. We lose water through breathing, sweating and urinating. If water is not replenished, then the body will intelligently "go to the bank", its internal reserves, and make a withdrawal. Those reserves may include our vertebral discs, joints, etc... We can be compromising critical systems that aid in joint protection through muscular contraction/relaxation. So drink up!! Unfortunately alcohol is a dehydrator/diuretic and is counter productive. But if you need some "aiming fluid", then we'll have to start a new thread. Make mine a Fosters!! Please!!!

Follow through is like the sprinters who don't stop sprinting until after they cross the finish line. Not following through is like the runner who sees the finish line and starts to slow down before reaching it.

My rule is an equal amount of water for every beer./msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif (Not scientific, but it works for me). The only thing I would add to Circle 2's post is to say "at the end of the hit" or after the disc rips out, to emphasize the crossing the finish line analogy Morgan posted.

Fred : "This is an important point, at least as far as accuracy goes. If you start the throw with a bent arm, you've got an additional angular momentum complexity to your arm movement that the reach back technique doesn't have to deal with. This additional complexity translates into less consistant accuracy".
If you start the disc in the reach back postion (as I do) you still have to pull it in to the body to form the straight line you refer to. This puts you in the elbow bend postion even if you start in the reach back postion. I'm an old freestyle and ultimate player who picked up golf about two and half years ago. In that time I have averaged at least one round a week with Johnny Sias. That makes 100 plus a** kickings I have taken. Johnny starts with a bent elbow. He is the most accurate player I have seen inside 300 ft(this year became eligible for the grand mule division, but usually plays open). That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Thanks Bill, this refers back to the Dec 20 archive in which I said, "On point 7, the path the disc takes from gravity well to point of separation does not affect the tangent except at the point the tangent begins." No one ever asked me to explain that at that time, but I'd like to now. What I meant was that it didn't matter what arc or path the disc took before the hit, the path the disc took after launch (tangent) was determined at the hit, not before. For accuracy, it doesn't matter if you start straight or bent, it only matters where the hit makes it go.