:cool:Way to go Blarg ;)

way to go!

Thanks to all for the congrats!!! I was pretty drunk when posting last night, so sorry for bragging. I just had to tell somebody.
I'm sure it'll wear off, but I'm still so happy to have this memory of my ace replaying in my head like a great movie trailer!
Again, thanks for the good wishes.

P.S.
You all owe me a dollar! :D

finally, after 2 years... i'm not sure if this thread stayed on discussion of the bent elbow technique (i know it did for the first 50+ pages of replies) but in my latest video shoot i took some video of a 1000+ rated player that throws well over 400' using it.
http://www.discgolfreview.com/resources/analysis/timmygill.shtml

Blarg, yes, that is a good example of upright compact (bent elbow). Tim's form is very good. Steve Brinster would be another.

Blake,

Thanks for the great pictures and video!! Your pictures and videos are excellent!!

Timmy Gill's success, especially winning the 04 Memorial NT, show the usefulness of the compact throwing technique. Now if I could only learn how to do it...

Sorry Blake, I should have address the last note to you.

np Dave :)

After two years of reading Dave Dunipace and Blake T's advice I am happy to say I am finally getting it. Yes, I am slower than most, but the package is finally coming together.

Thanks Dave and Blake for helping me to make significant improvements in my game. As an aside, thanks Lowe for all your efforts to bring Dave's advice in a simplified form to us.

Here is my experience. I have played for 6 years but only decided to get better when I saw the 2002 Worlds Championship in Houston. I was amazed at what the "big" guns could do and still be accurate. I started working my game but was limited to about a 240 foot throw with pretty good accuracy. I started reading Dave and Blake's advice and increased my average to 280; I was pleased but not satisfied.

I went back restudied and started looking at some videos (Theo Pozzy's) and made significant improvements. I was now averaging over 300 feet and would occasionally rip one over 350 (keep in mind that I am 5' 8" and 44 years old). I wasn't sure what I was doing right on those throws that went well but I knew there had to be something.

Last June I was given the Worlds DVD and NT DVD as a gift, and I sat and watched the pros doing it. I took what I was seeing and reread through Dave and Blake's material and it hit me. Over the last month I have increased my average to 330 feet and am hitting 370-380 foot throws with some frequency. I am also hitting 400 ft rollers. Furthermore, I have above average accuracy (relative to my own throwing career).

The final key for me was something that Dave and Blake have both emphasized, DON'T REACH BACK TOO FAR. I don't use the bent elbow technique. I simply can't make the change. I was pushing the disc behind so far that I couldn't make a good transition. This will sound familiar but it is very much like throwing a ball. A pitcher can bend way over backwards in his windup until he literally touches his hand on the ground. He might even get a decent pitch this way but the effort of getting back into his power zone will be considerable. It is much easier to start in the power zone.

If you think about your right shoulder (RHBH) as facing the basket, I was turning my shoulder 110 to 130 degrees away from the basket. I have seen many pictures and many videos of other players doing this and thought it was correct (indeed, for some it may be). Now I turn my right shoulder between 80 and 90 degrees away from the basket and am most effective at 80 degrees. My mechanics are those described by Dave and Blake as is my mental approach, speed not power, but I add to that the concept that I am throwing the disc the same way I throw a ball. This is hard to explain but when I throw a ball I can feel the entire throw and have this point where I put all my energy into that throw. This isn't something I planned out it developed instinctually after years of little league and catch. The same transition is now happening in my disc throws. I am going from a learned rote behavior to that same feel. I couldn�t get that feel until I shortened up my throw and put myself into a power zone that was built around my center of gravity.

All of that aside, I can't see this having happened without the incredibly valuable and free advice that has been made available by Dave, Blake, Theo, and many others here and elsewhere, so thanks!

Lyle,

glad to hear things are working.

Blake_T:

I have to report this to somebody, as none of my longtime friends play disc golf and they don't really care how I'm doing.
I THREW A DISC 330 FEET TODAY!!!

I'm 59 and have been playing just under a year. One of the goals I was shooting for was to get a drive up to 300 feet. I kept telling myself I could do it and kept on trying.
After about 6 months, I could hit 220 feet very consistently and once in awhile maybe 250 feet. I told people I could throw 250 feet, which was a bit of an exaggeration. I stayed at the 220-250 range for what seemed like forever. I began to doubt myself a bit. I'd have a good throw (I thought) and then measure it and it'd come out to 230 feet or so. I started thinking 'maybe I'm just too old, maybe my body simply cannot generate a 300 foot throw.' :( I read and re-read everything I could find about throwing discs.
I started working out a bit with 5 lb. and 10 lb. barbells while watching TV. I started hitting some 270 foot drives (rare) and was stuck there for awhile, but it gave me hope. Most of my drives still fell way short of 270. Then, a few weeks ago, I snapped one off on an open field that was around 290!
Today, somehow, thanks to Dave D., and you too, Blake, I snapped one 40 feet further than my furthest ever!
330 feet! Yaaaay!!!
I know it's nothing compared to all you guys that throw 400+, but for me it's beyond a milestone. One I wasn't really certain I'd ever reach.
The disc was a 161g X-Out SE Valkyrie. It made a loud POP as it left my hand. Not my fingers hitting my hand, but just snapping off the disc. Loooooooong beautiful helix.

Thanks so much to Dunipace and Blake for all of their unselfish sharing of information.

Next stop 400 feet! :D:D:D:D

congrats

Congrats :) didn't know old men could throw that far heh Just kidding. Sounds like you're on your way to being able to CRUSH! Speaking as someone that can throw 450 I rmember the progress through the stage you are at, but I can also tell you that the old saying "Drive for show putt for dough" is very acurate. I can't putt and my game suffers horribly :). Just don't forget about your short game. Oh BTW if you're hearing that snap then you are on the right track thats what you want. Congrats again on crushin over 300.

Good point Christian. My putting is lousy. I've also lost
a lot of accuracy in my relentless pursuit of distance.
I used to be able to throw my 150g candy Valks dead straight for 220-250' about 5 feet off the ground, with a slight fade at the end. That throw has disppeared from my repertoire somehow. Now whenever I attempt what I think is that same throw, the Valks turn over and go way to the right before coming back a bit at the end.

Guess I need to move up in weight on the Valkyries, or maybe start throwing something more overstable?
:confused:

P.S.
Thanks to all for the congrats! :D

P.P.S.
I didn't know old men could throw that far either! :eek:

Nice Blarg. I've been playing for a while but still remember when I broke 300' (with a scorpion of all things). I felt like I was really up there w/ the "big boys". One thing i have learned is as I got more power I had to throw more stable discs. That is the downside of upping your power, ya gotta go shopping for more plastic. I don't know what you throw now other than a 150 valk but maybe a heavier valk (160-165?) would be helpful. If not that perhaps a light viking or teebird. Its really hard to tell w/o seeing you throw or trying the new disc before ya go and buy a bunch of new plastic. Hope this may be some help. If not, congrats anyway :D.

Thanks Rodney!
Luckily for me, during the first 6 months of playing, I bought
way too many discs in the wrong weights for my aging weenie arm. I must have 60-70 discs by now and lots of them are Valkyries in weights from 150g up to 170g.
I guess I'll try breaking out some of the heavier Valks and see what happens.
Maybe I'll finally get some use out of all those 'wrong' discs I bought! ;)
I've also got a bunch of Beasts in all sorts of weights that I may finally be able to use for something!

Breaking the 300 foot barrier was such a thrill for me, it was almost as good as my first (and only) ace!

Again, Thanx! :)

Blarg,

Good going! You're doing great for only playing about a year.

Lyle,

Congratulations!
You're welcome, too. I'm glad it helped.
In the near future you can look for the latest updated version of the Distance Secrets article at my MSM group "Disc Golf Resources".
At the moment I'm working on a major overhaul to my MS Access Course Evaluation database.

Lyle,

Your success gives me hope because we're about the same age. (I'm 45.) I'm going to experiment with a shorter reach back. I've somehow been gaining about 30 ft. per year and my best throws on level ground are now about 280'. A few times I've gotten to about 300', so I've still got a weenie arm.
One thing that seems to have helped me is to grip the disc tighter, especially at the hit. My friend said I'm getting more snap now. I don't have much time for field practice any more, though, so I've plateaued.

After two years of reading Dave Dunipace and Blake T's advice I am happy to say I am finally getting it. Yes, I am slower than most, but the package is finally coming together.




Well I have a confession to make... I just can't do the Compact Throw. I've probably studied the material as well as anyone, and I got a few tips from Carlton Howard once. I may be in Dave's category of those who just never get it.

I have been able to apply many concepts that have helped me gain distance, though.

When I use the compact throw on the practice field my shots just don't go as far. My arm speed is pathetically slow. It seems that a full reach back gives the disc a longer time to accelerate.

There...I've confessed, and now I feel better. If only that would add 30 more feet to my drives!

I had sort of a funny revalation this weekend while I was playing. Hole #8 of the couse I play the most is a 400' shot that goes maybe 10'-15' downhill. There's a path perhaps 50' from the pin (I'm bad at estimating distances, perhaps someone can correct me, it's the Edina, MN course) and my goal is to get it over the path. I've been stretching it out so I'm getting to the path pretty consistantly with a good throw (it has to be accurate too because of all the trees). Yesterday there was a bit of a headwind and there were people about to play on the hole to the right of the fairway so I chose an X-tra instead of the normal JLS or Beast. I threw about half power with a shorter run-up to make sure I stayed on the fairway and ended up at about the same spot I normally do when I'm trying harder.

Lowe,

the difficulty with the compact motion is that it throws off timing since it takes the disc much less time to get from start to the hit. i usually find that i throw better with a little more speed on the disc (elbow not fully bent at max reach back) to help with timing, but never fully straight as that usually makes me lose feel for the hit.

the real trick lies in two places. first, your upper body MUST follow the hips, and the upper body rotation will start even later than with a standard reach back throw. second, the elbow must move with the shoulders from the start. many players lead with the shoulder and let the arm lag due to gravity, but for the compact technique, the elbow has to act more like an extension of the shoulder... that is, the angle between the upper arm and the shoulder shouldn't change until the elbow begins its extension. the greater the elbow is bent just before the extension, the more potential force you can generate.

for some examples of what i'm talking about, your arm should at some point look like this (regardless of your technique) if you want to maximize snap:
http://www.discgolfreview.com/resources/images/tgill1-5.jpg
http://www.discgolfreview.com/resources/images/cheeren1-5.jpg
http://www.discgolfreview.com/resources/images/csprague1-5.jpg
http://www.discgolfreview.com/resources/images/jdrummond1-4.jpg

the thing with a compact motion is that it will exaggerate any timing issues and footwork inefficiencies. i recommend trying to harness it by throwing with just a hip rotation (no steps) and avoiding all of the conscious motion parts that are the keys to 400+, such as accenting the chop and finishing strong (keep your body relaxed and let the motion flow). once you begin to gain a feel for it, you should be able to throw ~300 or more without an x-step and at like 50-60% power. once you can feel the hit, start adding an x-step until you get the same feel as you did without it. i found i was easily hitting 360'+ without a strong finish or fast footwork. after you have the timing, then slowly integrate a stronger finish and quicker chop and that's when everything comes together.

after getting a chance to converse with Dave at the worlds, i've thought about writing a 3rd bent elbow article as i think i have a better understanding for it now... but that's on the back burner as i haven't had much demand for it as well as me being in the middle of my grip article and another article.

Blake:
I think many of us would welcome any articles on distance techniques from you and I look forward to reading it if/when
it gets done.

Here's a technique question:

When I hit my 'breakthrough' 330 foot shot last Friday (first time ever throw over 290'), I did something that added a lot of snap, but I'm wondering if it was bad technique.
I was using a very simple 3 step x-step and being very deliberate about it. Not moving very fast at all, but trying to stay relaxed and smooth. Here's the possibly 'wrongish' part. I'd noticed many long arm throwers doing something I'd never tried. A lot of guys turn the disc over completely on the back swing or turn it at least 90 degrees. Then as they move the disc towards the hit, their wrists rotates clockwise (RHBH) and finishes level at the 'snap.' When I tried this it caused the disc to be 'snapped' into a nose-down release. A loud 'pop' was heard, the disc flew with a gradual left to right curve before flexing back more or less straight for awhile and finally faded left at the end. The result, for me, was a 40 foot distance increase.
One of the videos that shows this technique (there are many)
is the one of Timmy Gill from your site (I think that's where I got it).
I also had the feeling, possibly bogus, that bringing the disc forward and rotating it 180 degrees clockwise gathered air under the disc and somehow added forward impetus. Something like an air bounce, yet with no visible 'bounce.'
Is there anything to this feeling or am I nuts?

In any case, I got more 'snap' than ever before and A LOT more distance.

--If you can't do it at all, you ain't doin' it right.

P.S.
To all the over 50 guys out there who think they can't throw over 300 feet. You can. Experiment. Change something. You might have to lose weight or get in better shape, but I'm living proof that an out of shape geezer can learn to throw over 300 feet in less than a year.
:cool:
:D

Here's the possibly 'wrongish' part. I'd noticed many long arm throwers doing something I'd never tried. A lot of guys turn the disc over completely on the back swing or turn it at least 90 degrees. Then as they move the disc towards the hit, their wrists rotates clockwise (RHBH) and finishes level at the 'snap.' When I tried this it caused the disc to be 'snapped' into a nose-down release.




i never recommend this. TG on my site has been playing for a long time... he was '95 am champ, etc. and he has developed the timing and rhythm to execute this consistently. the downside of this is that it adds variables. roll it early and you will either yank an anhyzer or wormburn. roll it late and you'll have off-axis torque or a nose up release. roll it just slightly off timing and you will neutralize most of your snap.

i'm guessing that part of what helped you add distance was that you got more nose down. the same trajectory can be achieved without having to roll the wrist in this manner. what the roll does is it gives you a focal point on getting the disc down more. from my experiences, concentrating on the roll seems to minimize the shift in height between the shoulders. what i would recommend experimenting with is to start with your right shoulder about 2" lower than your left shoulder, and then making sure it stays that height all the way to the hit while keeping a wrist down/thumb forward orientation.



I also had the feeling, possibly bogus, that bringing the disc forward and rotating it 180 degrees clockwise gathered air under the disc and somehow added forward impetus. Something like an air bounce, yet with no visible 'bounce.'
Is there anything to this feeling or am I nuts?




this sounds like it might be off axis torque. i have experimented with a technique that i call a "reverse air bounce" (for lack of a better term) where i pull the disc downward and force an air pocket to form under/behind the disc creating artificial lift. usually i used this for high anhyzer shots as it was easier for me to get the height i was aiming for, but it also required an extreme amount of power on the disc to get it to hold the turn through the apex... this isn't something i've found a real use for just yet though.

i'll start work on the bent elbow follow to the follow-up article when i finish up the grip one.

Thanks a lot bro! You the man-Most of that made a lot of sense. I will try your technique Oh Mighty Wise ONE!
Thanks again.... :)

best.thread.evar.

Blake,

Thanks for the lengthy reply. I'll give your advice a try. Maybe someday you can get a job as a disc golf coach.

Lowe

Thanks Blake. I figured the wrist rotation was 'wrong.'
I'm also finding my longest throws feel as though I'm pulling through and a bit downward. Sort of from left shoulder height
down a few inches to top of the chest height.

Already had some humerous results with the wrist-roll technique. Tried it with a very light gummy Valkyrie and
somehow ended up releasing the thing at about waist height
whereupon the disc hyzered nearly straight up (WAAAY UP!).

I think the rotation sort of 'bent' the disc (very floppy at 150g candy) so that the release occured with the disc almost vertical. Might be a useful technique for some shot or other if I can ever duplicate it. :D

i actually find it a bit easier to get nose down starting lower and pulling slightly upwards as the disc gets launched towards the flight plate.

i'm guessing the pulling downward on your longest throws is not occurring until after the disc pulls off the lock fingers and enters the follow through.

a way to get the same kind of nose down without the downward pull is to make sure that your shoulders rotate open in a manner that allow you to keep the orientation of the disc consistent during the last part of the throw.

For me, pulling at all upward still tends to make the disc go up. I guess I end up throwing with the nose up a bit.
Pulling downward seems to get the nose down more, especially if my thumb is near the edge of the rim. When I've done it right, I get a laser straight long throw that stays 3-5 feet off the ground.
The downside is when I 'miss' by just a little, I get tremendous lift. The motion is downwards and the disc
stays level but rises like crazy and will eventually fall off left.
Not a good shot on most of the holes at my local (zillions of trees).
The rolling wrist snap seems to lock my wrist at just the right angle for a fast nose down release. My wrist can't 'hyper-supinate' any further and I'm getting a great snap.
Maybe I can do the same thing without the wrist-roll, or with a more subtle roll, as many long throwers seem to do just at release.
Kind of a snap with a small rotation towards palm up.

ah, from the sound of it, you are probably harnessing the same principles as throwing down hill. downward trajectory = more nose down. the disc's lift is keeping it off the ground.

there are definitely ways to keep the nose down without the wrist roll, and also get a bit more height which usually translates into more D as well.

if you've ever seen any big guns throw distance hyzer flips with discs like the valkyrie, xl, or xs, they are a good example of it. watching a disc go 60'+ high and still be nose down and turn over...

due to requests, i've whipped up a couple of stills from a throw that encompass 'the hit.'

these 3 frames cover 0.1 seconds of video that i pulled from justin jernigan's video clip. this was a ~430' controlled D throw with a kc teebird that peaked around 25' high and was pretty much a straight line drive for its entire flight.
http://www.discgolfreview.com/resources/articles/thehit.shtml

from a conversation i had with Dave D. at the worlds, he said that the more bent your elbow is, the more you can accelerate the disc during the elbow extension.

also, with most throws should look similar to this during this period, regardless of it being bent elbow, reach back, etc.

You know Blake, if your hobbie was making money, you'd be rich by now... :D

Thanks Blake, Those are the best pictures of the hit that I've ever seen. They show a lot of what Dr. D. has described. It happens so incredibly fast that it's impossible to see otherwise. Amazing that it all happened in 0.1 sec. (Maybe the fact that the hit takes me about 5 seconds might be a reason why my discs don't fly too far.)

Lyle, i'm actually an economics major :)

i posted 4 stills from Chris Heeren's throw that cover ~0.13 seconds of footage on http://www.discgolfreview.com/resources/articles/thehit.shtml

Chris leads more with the shoulder (while JJ leads more with the elbow) and so the similar start to finish points are over a slightly greater period of time.

Thanks for posting the stills. They have made me realize exactly where the weaknesses in my own drives are. I went from the stills of the hit and started looking at the player throw analysis pics. It made me realize (mainly from looking at Cameron's and Barry's throws) that my biggest problem is footwork. I can already get 400-450 and have had 3 or 4 throws that have gotten out near 500. Yeah, I know, I have no right to complain about that. The problem is that I drag my back foot and I believe that may be keeping me from getting even more D. That and I'm hell on shoes. I'm not a big guy (6' 140 lbs) so I should be a little lighter on my feet. Any advice on how to get there?

Rodney, it might sound corny, but a dance class could probably help with your "light on your feet" problem. Anything from the waltz to breakdancing.
If you don't want to dance, try Karate or Judo or a similar self defense class.
My two cents.

I don't dance. But I do t'ai chi. And I still drag my foot.
Besides, I might need the martial arts so people don't talk smack about dance classes. :D

Yeah, a little judo goes a long way when someone calls you a pansy for doing ballet. :)

Rodney, it might sound corny, but a dance class could probably help with your "light on your feet" problem...



It sure worked for Fred "Twinkle toes" Flintstone. (But that was only to improve his bowling.)

Ok. This is a really great thread so lets not ruin it w/ some dancing ninja stuff. Thanks guys but I don't think I'll be dancing any time soon. Dave, Blake, any other D-monsters that might be here, any suggestions?

Rodney,

pick your left foot up? :)

not sure where you are having the foot drag problem, but,
going to go out on a limb here and take a guess that you either
1) throw quite upright and slightly behind the pivot foot with a straight knee) or
2) throw with a lot of knee bend and a bent pivot leg but with a very large plant step?

without seeing your throw, i can't say if you are losing power due to it, but there are some long term joint issues that go along with dragging the foot such as damage to the MCL, patella tendon, or hip. a question to ask is when you throw without taking a step and using just the hips to power it, do you still drag your foot?

I think it's probably more like #2. It's kinda like I'm "puting on brakes" with my left foot. That being the case it seems to me that some of the energy that could be going into my throw is being wasted by the foot drag. I wish I had a digital video camera so I could just send you some video of my throw. Oh well... From what you are saying it sounds like I just need to shorten my plant step. That would probably speed up my turn, therefore giving me more arm speed and maybe even giving me more D :D. I'll try it.
As far as throwing w/o any steps do I still drag? I don't know. I do throw w/ no runup quite a bit. I'll have to really pay attention next time I'm out and get back to you.

Rodney,

i guess it depends on what type of a pivot you get... either an axis-pivot where your left foot doesn't leave the ground much until late in the follow through or a step-through pivot where you get more of a push off of the left foot with your momentum carrying forward.

the only time you'll be sapping a lot of power is if you use more of the latter. the possible solutions are either a shorter plant step or a stronger push out of the cross step... or just lifting up your left leg a little :)

Cool, thanks Blake. I'll give it a try and see how it goes.

There are a lot of really good players out there, but surprisingly few that has actually attempted to analyze the throwing mechanics, and even fewer can actually explain their findings to others (of course Dave D is one of the best examples of this rare specimen :) ).

Regarding the anhyzer problems: A very common mistake, especially by people used to throwing lids/old-school-midnight-flyer-era- , or other understable discs, is a tendency to lean the upper body forward. (Which is almost necessary to get enough initial hyzer for that kind of disc.) Another common problem is starting your throw from too low, i.e. at the far point of your reach back your muscle memory tells you to start low at around or below waist height, which does no good when getting a 21st century golf disc to fly straight or in an anhyzer arc.

So I think the key things to focus on for players adapting to modern dg plastic, or simply trying to develop a good anhyzer throw with overstable disc, are:
1) adapt an upright posture -don't bend your upper body forward at the waist .
2) as already mentioned: keep your arm and disc up all through the throw -starting around upper chest/shoulder height is not wrong.

But take care, it's easy to fall in the trap of doing a wider arc swinging motion by not letting your elbow joint bend enough in mid-throw, instead of the better straighter pull where the elbow joint will more or less automatically be almost fully bent before extending into the final pull, when going for anhyzers.

Hope this was to any help for someone... :confused: ;)



Sweden Peter, thanks for your help. The advice Dave D, Blake T., and you gave me is finally paying off. Today I threw my Pro Orc 495 feet (range finder measured) with no real wind assistance on a flat to slightly uphill throw. 5 bucks for 5 throws distance contest in which i almost got all of my Pro Orc... I didn't win -- John Kuhns threw 546 feet, and Fred Salaz 510 feet, but if was fun to be able to not be completely smoked by them. And, I am thinking i may learn the high anhyzer or even a hyzer flip to better advantage in the future, or at least i can dream.

Blake_T
WOW! Nice footage of the 'hit.' Unfortunately, the camera is still way too slow to actually show what's happening. The disc, arm and hand are one huge blur at the rip. I'd love to see the same thing done with a camera that can capture a hundred frames a second. Then you might capture the tendon bounce, the fingers coming off the disc one at a time or all at once and the angle of release, etc.
One thing that is quite informative in the pictures is the moment the disc is released can be seen. It seems to happen quite a bit before the elbow is fully extended, unlike what my longest throws feel like. One might assume that the greatest speed would be achieved at the full extension of the elbow and arm, the full uncoiling of the whip, so to speak, but that is apparently not necessarily the case.

congrats rob


Blake_T
WOW! Nice footage of the 'hit.' Unfortunately, the camera is still way too slow to actually show what's happening. The disc, arm and hand are one huge blur at the rip. I'd love to see the same thing done with a camera that can capture a hundred frames a second. Then you might capture the tendon bounce, the fingers coming off the disc one at a time or all at once and the angle of release, etc.
One thing that is quite informative in the pictures is the moment the disc is released can be seen. It seems to happen quite a bit before the elbow is fully extended, unlike what my longest throws feel like. One might assume that the greatest speed would be achieved at the full extension of the elbow and arm, the full uncoiling of the whip, so to speak, but that is apparently not necessarily the case.



to blarg:

the nuances of the disc rip can't really be captured in static frames, even if they were shot at 1000 fps. as for the disc rip, it occurs when the wrist changes direction, usually from the forward direction to sideways.