Good guess Daniel. It seems driver nose up is a natural tendency. I have the same problem left handed. I throw putters and mid-range fine, but when I switch to drivers the nose pops up. Another problem that happens frequently when we try to throw farther, is starting our forearm motion too soon. The shoulders should be leading the arm motion all the way through the snap. If they don't you will get a weak snap.

Blake, I would never recommend a closed wrist position. I feel neutral or slightly open is strongest. As for consistency or control, I think that is a matter of getting used to the feel and doing it the same way. Any time you change some mechanical thing in your throw, you have to get used to it until the new feel, feels right.

I tend to agree with Dave in that I think my problem when I go to the bent-elbow with drivers is that I'm rushing and pulling my arm forward before my shoulders. It's not that I'm throwing with the nose up, because all of my drives with, say, Teebirds, are line drives. (When I want them to be, of course...) It's simply that they don't go as far as I want them to!

Dave, let me ask you about a particular pro's form. I'm from Louisville, KY and have played with Dave Greenwell on several occasions. I know he's been playing since God created the world, but his motion is very, very rythmic (it's almost like a dance!) and very smooth. Do you know offhand if he uses the bent-elbow technique? (I haven't seen him in several months, but what I do remember of his form, he does seem to use it.) If so, I can try and emulate his form.

Thanks again!

Sorry Daniel, I'm not sure about Dave's form. I know his game is excellent and he throws just about every shot in the book, but I don't have a mental picture of his form. It can't be bad or I would have noticed, I've been playing with Dave off and on for over 20 years. He used to use the straight reachback method, but that was a long time ago. He had a hard time reaching 400ft at that time.

In this picture of Christian Voigt (http://www.dtworld.com/Max1.jpg), is this a straight back method stance, with a cocked wrist a closed palm?

Trying to understand the lingo here.

Dave Dunipace and Scott Stokely (on commercial tape) agree with each other, but contradict what Christian is doing here, right? Not a problem, just trying to understand this stuff a little better.

I've played many rounds with Dave G since 1985.
He has an old school frisbee type throw, kinda nose up with tons of snap, which is why he is so accurate. His throw is real handsy but his timing is right on every time.
Of course Dave can throw nose down, sky rollers and what ever style he wants, but his natural throw is more of a frisbee toss!!
Since he learned to throw with extremely understable discs compared to todays drivers you would have a very hard time immulating his style. That is unless you wanted to forget everything you have ever learned and start all over ( which is what a lot of players should do).
Dave would be closer to this bent elbo technique than a berry shults or ken climo.
Dave creates lot of momentum from his hips and shoulders and always finishes forward even on 60' approach shots.
Daniel:
If your losing distance because of the disc falling off at the end of the flight either your discs are too heavy, too overstable and or you did not create enough revoloutions for the height and angle of the flight path to fully execute the shot.
\What discs are you trying to throw, how far and how high do you throw them??

David MAC.

There is nothing wrong with Christian Voigt's style for him. Christian is extremely strong, and can throw powerfully, any way he wants. He has a very long, very athletic throw that is not particularly accurate, but very powerful. It is not a good style for golf considering the sometimes restricted tee areas. The throw I am advocating is much more compact, doesn't require a run up, doesn't require unusual flexibility or power. It is not more powerful per se. It is much more efficient and will allow mere mortals to throw their longest and most accurate shots with a minimum of movement and effort.

Quick question Daniel - do you turn stuff over or can you throw a DX TeeBird into a decent headwind?

I am curious as I too have almost as much D with ALL of my plastic rather than the huge advantage with the xtra super duper special long distance dirvers.

magnet/Ram up to 300
Comet 310
Cyclone/XS/KC TeeBird 330

I KNOW that no fast twitch muscle fiber exists in my body, but i do get good spin and can blast my Cyclone in to most headwinds (ala not Round Rock). So am curious about the turnover aspect of your throws. I'll admit I am a pure reachback tosser and am more confused than anything else with the bent elbow stuff. Having listed my plastic above, DD will probably ignore my post (Dave D, sorry about all the stuff I said about you when the Ram was discontinued - stocked up recently - you are obviously not evil incarnate) but i do plan to investigate elbow bending this year.

Hey Blake, sounds like a rare off weekend for me. I should be in town Sat. night, but I'm not sure at this point. We can throw some drives this weekend, I'll get you some footage from prev events, and you can get my scanner running maybe /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

I might go play golf with a friend in Cedar Rapids and/or I may go look over the course I layed out in Centerville (So.Iowa) I'll definately be at the Sunday GDS tournament, so if nothing else I'll see ya there.

Dave D. - I tried the cross finger grip tonight! Wow did I pop some off! A little too powerful, I'm more dainty when I drive. The comment I get most is that "I look so effortless" and I attribute alot of that to the Bent Elbow (which I think I use - I keep it close to the body) Maybe Blake can help me with an analysis this weekend.
I've had mechanics in my throw that I didn't know how to express and some that I wasn't aware of at all until I started reading the compilation and some of the threads

Dave M. - Your comment on throwing Aviars 400ft by getting them high and flat is right on. I learned how to do that about a year ago (?) and it instantly changed my game. (I now can throw a beer cap 150ft using that technique - I throw them high enough to land on my 3 story Apt)

thanks dave, i guess i'll experiment more with the openness of the wrist and see what i come up with. i haven't been able to throw nearly as often as i would have liked lately and i spend much of the round trying to get my timing and balance back after going for a while without throwing.

chris: yah, i'm not sure exactly how long i'll be in the area but i can let you know tomorrow after the tournament. i'm staying w/ hogan right now. drop me an email at [email protected] if you wanna hook up and stuff. you need to teach me how to throw aviars high :P i may or may not be here on sunday but i can let you know. if i remember your throw correctly you incorporate the same principles of the tendon bounce but your elbow is at like a 160 degree angle (not totally straight but not bent enough probably to call it "bent"). i'm sure i can pick up more if i see you throw again.

blake t.

Chris, you stated something I had neglected to say earlier. You keep it close to your body. That is the most important part of a compact throw, not how much you bend your elbow to start. Another part is standing up straighter. Andrew's picture of Chris Voigt is the antithesis, leaning back, reaching back, needing a long run up. Not compact. I think a better name for the technique would be something like "upright compact drive" rather than "bent elbow".

I think your right. It's the Figure Skater analogy (tight and compact to generate max speed)

I noticed that new players were being taught to pull across the chest. Most were doing this even if it was uncomfortable. I actually believe in pulling across lower (or where I'm most comfortable) Do you have anything to add this?

I do start from behind the pad on drives (I don't need to) but I'm 6'3" and I think it helps my timing and weight transfer. I also noticed that much like a kicker in football, that I have developed an awareness of my spacing and always end my warm-up by stepping back to my start position. I think it helps me to confidently hit my foot behind the mini in the fairway.

chicken wing (http://nebdisc.7host.com/tournamentarchive2002/blue02/Pages/Image10.html)

Here's a picture I feel compelled to share. A few Pro Masters & Advanced Masters in the area often, if not always, drive with this style. It's become known as the "chicken wing".

This particular shot is a temp C tee around the club house. It requires an anhyzer for right hand back hand throwing.

I've heard of some extraordinary people who can throw a disc 400 ft. using a chicken wing throw.

Chris, I think pulling high across the chest is better. It doesn't help with hyzers, but it helps alot with flat and level shots and especially turnovers and rollers. The only way I can think coming from lower might help,(other than you are comfortable with it), is if you came up and over to get the nose down. As for starting behind the pad: if you have a nice large flat pad, it certainly doesn't hurt. But many times the run up is constricted, and especiall those of us with longer strides are going to suffer, especially with turnovers and rollers. Linear momentum is almost completely unnecessary for anything but getting a rhythm and timing. Rhythm and timing are very important, but can be changed with practice. Centrifugal momentum is what really counts, and that doesn't take much linear distance. Also on fairway shots, the ground can tend to be rough and uneven. It's nice to be able to throw 400 ft with two small steps instead of a longer, more treacherous run up.

Excellent points Dave-

I just realized that I probably do pull across the chest, but I also get my head so far forward (much like Climo in his follow through) that it feels lower. And when I refer to pulling across the chest "lower" I mean I throw from below the nipples and above the solar plexus. Part of that is the "bent elbow" technique, which keeps the elbow in close (I can wedge a fist between my elbow and ribs except on big anhyzers or rollers) If I try to pull across my chest higher, I have to tilt my forearm up or I have to move the elbow higher and away from my body (both would be poor technique for me). Some new players that I've seen are throwing unnaturally high, almost forcing it above their nipples. (Butthead is giggling somewhere)

As for the run up, the Des Moines club went all out on tee pads (15ft tapered tees on 4 of 5 courses and the other has 14ft no taper) But as much as I travel, I've learned to rely less on the linear as you put it and focus solely on my weight transfer, knowing that my plant foot, hips, arm, and release point are all grooved from practice (Santa Cruz tee pads come to mind). We also play year round in the frozen tundra of the midwest and so I've had extensive training with little or no footing (ice,slush, mud)Upper body centrifugal momentum is all you have sometimes.

Either way, Spragie still throws like a school girl!

titleDisc and David MAC--

I normally throw TeeBirds (KC Pro or the latest CE, anywhere from 170g to 175g, the more overstable ones), an occasional Valkyrie, and Rocs. I can get ~360' out of my TeeBirds in most any wind, up or down. If I go much lighter than 170g, I start to turn teebirds over. (Meaning they will fly straight, then get flippy in the middle.)

I played a few rounds this weekend at a major distance course (Harrodsburg, for those that are familiar) and found that I think that my timing is off, in that I'm not letting my shoulder pull my arm through the shot. I sometimes do, and I had several 400' shots, one with a Discraft Storm! (Sorry Dave D...) =)

The one thing that I was (and still am) amazed by Dave G. is that his timing is so spot-on. I can absolutely see where that is very, very important. I just wish I could develop that type of rythm. Maybe after 26 years, I can too! >=)

Thanks!

daniel l: when you throw teebirds do you throw em flat or hyzer?

also, i agree with you about timing. that big spiel i gave up above about incidental motion is what i use to try and ensure my timing is on. i still struggle with timing ---> i'm inconsistent. hehe.

i too get amazed with the consistency of the guys that have tons of experience. one of my regular playing buddies is a 25 year vet and his throw variance usually spans about a 5 degree arc while mine still spans about a 40 degree arc.

blake t.

Blake,

It really depends on what I want them to do. For distance, I release them flat. Normally, they'll go arrow straight or S-curve slightly. For constant hyzer or a headwind, I'll hyzer them to about 20 degrees, but not much more than that.

My accuracy consistency is really good, in my mind. I'm in the 15-20 degree arc range. However, this can depend on what type of disc I throw. When I throw rocs/storms/aviars, it's that or lower. Drivers may be a bit higher. I just want to be able to lengthen the range of that arc... =)

daniel:
have you experimented w/ a nose down hyzer for distance? that way, when it hits "flippy" middle section they flip flat and stay flat instead of flipping over and turning. the dx teebird has currently displaced my dx valk as my longest disc but i need to throw it hyzer to get the lift needed for a max D toss and to avoid turning it (but the flight is dead straight).

my 40 degree arc only happens when i'm gunning for max D. usually it's because i lose my focus on what i should be focusing on (timing/balance) and start focusing on other stuff (power/finishing/snap). hopefully i'll be able to break 400' consistently soon so i can stop worrying about D and work on making the arc smaller hehe.

blake t.

I do have a 168g KC TeeBird that tends to get a bit flippy, especially when thrown flat. To counteract this, I do throw this disc with a touch of hyzer so that it does go straight with maybe just a slight fade to the right in the middle.

I developed this from the discs I learned on, like Leopards, TLs, and XSs. The old-school (first run) TLs with the harder/stiffer flight plates were great for this type of throw.

(Dave D., if you read this, you have my blessing to make the TLs with the stiffer dome... =) Those discs take a beatin' and keep on tickin'...)

I see the Dude has recovered nicely from the whippin I put on him in California. How soon we forget! You must have been licking those wounds since the moment you dropped me off at the airport. You know I really shouldn't pick on the physically challenged, but since it's you.

By the way, did Chris Hysell win your weekly mini? I know you were letting me stay with you and taxi driving me around all week, but according to the PDGA I only had a 1 in 10 chance of missing that 35ft putt for the win. Maybe next time?

A question for Dave D, Blake, Dave M, or other driving doctors: I've been spending a lot of time lately field throwing to work on my timing and accuracy (reducing the arc radius of my throws). Yesterday, I discovered (by accident) that if I lengthened the final step in my run-up (the plant) from about 3' to ~5', my throws were staying lower (10-15' as opposed to 20-30'), but were going just as far or farther and were staying within a 10� arc, as opposed to my normal 20-25� arc. The other things I noticed were that I was able to take a direct approach toward my target rather than aiming 30� to the left, and that it was much harder (almost impossible) to throw nose up. I tried using the longer final step this evening with the same result, so I'm wondering whether such a long final step is "normal" or unusual? (For reference, I'm a shade over 5'6", so for me, a 5' step is long.) Thanks.

felix: i'm 5'7" and my final step is in the ballpark of 2-3'. my best guess is that it's not the step length and it's more the forward momentum leading to a better weight shift and faster hip explosion that is a result of the step length that's causing this. in the long run a longer step will be more difficult to get over your pivot foot especially when you are fatigued or throwing from upward sloping ground. i've found in my experience that a short last step will often allow your legs to go "passive" (if you aren't concentrating on it at all) and not get a quick hip thrust or the forward momentum needed to get over your foot. when you are fully over your foot your shoulders are going to stay more level on their rotation (behind the foot causes the back shoulder to drop and too far forward causes the back shoulder to lift). you might want to try taking your short step but concentrating on getting your weight over your leg as well as keeping the change in your left shoulder's height to a minimum.

i've done a lot of experimenting with footwork and i've found that step length isn't as critical as quickness in the hips. anything i add that adds hip quickness is going to add D for me. the downfalls of this are the extra motion causing timing issues if i'm not absolutely perfect with my footwork/balance as well as extra fatigue from throwing. my best guess for you is that with the longer step you are really getting rotated through well and getting your weight forward nicely causing you to be "faced up" during the throw as well as minimizing relative change in shoulder height.

blake t.

felix, I use the long final step thing too, but then I have no way to pivot over the plant foot if I do. I still am trying to figure out the whole "pivot" thing and "pull through the hit" thing. Long final step is a whole different technique from pivot and pull-through.

Felix, is this long step with a straight leg or a bent knee? If it's the lunge style it is unusual. If it's the straight leg style it's fairly normal, but that usually forces nose up throws. The lunge style requires strong legs and more athleticism than other styles, but can be very effective.

ah yes, the lunge style... that's what my big long spiel was trying to describe without knowing the terminology :P

dave: is the lunge better/worse than other styles? any additional strenghts/weaknesses of using it? that's how i do it but it's more to take strain off my knee by ensuring a clean pivot and good weight shift. i have incredibly strong legs (i maxed out my leg press/hip sled at around 1400 lbs) but i've also known people that had weaker legs/knees that had to plant on a straight leg and i'm just curious if any will be give more D in general.

blake t.

Hey Blake,

I am still trying to get my timing down...I just can't seem to get it. I did the straight reach back (my arms are really long...I can reach the disc back from my plant foot nearly 8.5 feet) last night in practice and got longer throws than the bent elbow. The only thing I'm not sure I'm doing is shifting my weight properly over my plant foot. I think I am, but...

Nice press! I thought I was pretty strong! When I worked out regularly a couple of years ago, I could get 600lbs on a sled. Of course, you need to keep in mind I look like Ken Climo on a diet...it kinda turned some heads in the gym! I might have to try and step out further...

Daniel

daniel:
if i remember the article correctly, you might be of the type that can throw farther with a reachback. however, when you said you are getting "well over 300" with your rocs with a bent elbow, it would lead me to believe you probably have greater distance potential (at least well beyond 360') with a bent elbow drive as well... i only count on 275' from my rocs and on a good day i'm barely scraping 300' with em but with my drives i can often get em out there 380' . if you focus on conceptualizing the hit and then work on being strongest at that point, that should dictate what technique will be best for you as strength at the hit is a characteristic of both the reach back and bent elbow techniques.

blake t.

Blake, I never recommend the lunge style because it takes good traction, a good teeing area, and strong quads on the plant foot. The stlye I have been advocating takes none of this. A slightly bent knee doesn't take nearly as much strength as a well bent knee. There is definitely more power available using the lunge style, but it is much more difficult in terms of athleticism, shoes, timing, and teeing areas. If you want a good workout, the lunge style will do it for you. I use it myself when I am feeling real strong. Most of the time, I use the compact style.

ah, i guess i should have been more explicit. my plant step is short (maybe 6" past my right shoulder at the outset) but i plant onto a very well bent knee and get a lot of flex in my quads/hamstrings at the hit. i guess i would call it a "micro-lunge" or "compact lunge." my focus is always on quickness, efficiency, balance, and trying to get my larger muscle groups to fire at the right times. it feels sort of like a lunge as i can really feel the weight shift and my hips firing but i also have a very slow and compact x-step. if there is more power available i will probably stick to my "micro-lunge" as i have incredibly strong, athletic legs. i started doing this because i find i'm more balanced and controlled with it rather than trying to speed up my x-step while still getting the same amount of zing.

thanks again for the insights.

blake t.

You need good traction for the lunge style, that's true. Dave saw a video I sent him of me doing the "lunge style" in the snow, and 1 out of 5 throws I fell down in the snow because you need lots of traction to stop the body weight when the front foot plants down after the lunge.

The lunge style is still my longest throw until I figure out the bent elbow style, which I am sure is longer because all the guys I know who throw farther than me use the bent elbow style.

Lowe, I have a possible grip for you and I lost your email address somehow. If you send me a message at [email protected] I can reply and send it.

I know this should be obvious, but it is amazing how a lack of practice, even just a short week and a half off makes a difference. I was throwing incredibly well the last few times out, both on the course and in an open field. My approaches were also much improved, although I had to adjust for the extra carry I was getting. Then I didn't get to throw for a week or 2 and went out 2 days ago and stunk the course up. I was throwing everything high and nose up (not a good combination!). I think I was staying on my back foot a little too long, or my legs and hips were ahead of my upper body. The few drives I threw well I ended up stepping forward off the tee (sometimes even hopping on my right foot) after the release, so I assume that means my weight was more on my plant foot.

I just hope I didn't forget everything I learned /msgboard/images/clipart/sad.gif

Dan, you should be stepping forward off the tee or hopping off your front foot. That is indicative of a good weight transfer forward.

dan: the first thing to go when you are "rusty" is rhythm/timing/balance. the common causes i have found of high and nose up using the bent elbow are:

1) you weren't getting your weight over your front foot
2) your shoulder rotation was late
3) your elbow extension was too much or too early

from the sound of it, you probably were behind your pivot foot on the bad throws so a quicker cross step or a shorter plant step should fix that up.

as for the stepping/hopping forward on your good throws, i agree with dave and those probably had a good weight shift. however (and unrelated), i have seen cases where this is a result of an insufficient weight shift. ideally you will step forward after your hips have finished rotating. on occasion i have seen players jam their pivot foot with their weight behind it and strong arm the throw without leading with their hips. after the disc has left their hands their hips are still closed and their foot is planted with no pivot and a perfectly straight knee. when their upper body continues into their follow through eventually they aren't flexible enough to keep turning and their body uncoils in reverse order, catapulting them off their pivot foot and rotating their lower body.

most of these are directed at the reach back method but there are a few parts of sections that pertain to problems with the bent elbow:
http://www.discgolf.com/discreview/technique.html

blake t.

Dave D., Blake, Morgan, thanks for the feedback. From what you've said, I suspect I have a lot of work to do since I'm definitely lunging with a deep knee bend. /clipart/sad.gif

this bent elbow throw you all have been talking about.Are you referring to how you start your "backswing".?i am trying to picture this and i am not sure if i got it right or not. some clarification would be helpful. thanks.. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

At the end of the backswing, the disc is close to your body eliminating the need to bring it to this position later as in the straight reach back throw. This compresses the acceleration phase of the throw and allows easier body positioning for pulling through the snap, generating power with less effort.

Sonny, check out the video of Larry Leonard at Disclife.com (http://disclife.com/dj020415a.shtml).

Pay attention to the very last few frames of his clip where he kicks the dirt /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif Is this a common result of the bent elbow technique? Just kidding

Now a serious question: Is this technique being applied both Golf and Pure Distance?

thanks felix, i will take a look............

> Is this technique being applied both to Golf and Pure Distance?

Dave Dunipace noted earlier that all 6 touring pros shown on Disclife.com use the bent elbow (either full or partial), so it's definitely being applied to golf. Considering Brian Schweberger finished second in the D event at last year's USDGC, it's probably safe to say that it's not unhelpful when it comes to pure d.

Felix, didn't Steve Brinster win the D event at the USDGC? He also throws bent elbow.

As I recall, Steve did win the D event. I haven't met Steve, so I wasn't aware that he uses the bent elbow. If he does, that's another plug for the bent elbow.

Please don't think that I am advocating this method as "the best" way to throw long. I'm not. I'm advocating it as the most efficient and least athletic way to throw compact golf shots, with power and accuracy, that I currently know. There is also a sidearm analogy of this same method, that works the same way.

Dave, I think those who have been following the thread from the beginning realize that you've never claimed the bent elbow is "the best" way to throw, but you're going to have a hard time convincing us out-of-shape, forty-something, non-athletic types who are scoring better and throwing further with less effort using it that it's not! \clipart(proud}

I have played with Steve Brinster a couple times and have watched him throw in person a few times. He throws with a slightly different technique. He uses a biomechanical device that barely shows under his shirt, it runs on diesel and attaches directly to his elbow, made by John Deere. It's about 75 horse, comes with front end loader, and the discs he throws are made of depleted uranium.

I wasn't disputing the effectiveness of the form. I just know that a good golf shot doesn't neccesarily equal a good distance shot. I change my grip when throwing distance vs golf.

Oops. Make that /clipart/proud.gif.

greg: the bent elbow article describes it for golf D rather than pure D and from various posts in the archives the bent elbow might not be capable of 700', but it is capable of 450 .

blake t.

Blake,

I have to tell you that using several of your ideas about form, I was able to get two consecutive 450' throws in this weekend! These weren't even with my "distance" discs! I used the straight reach back, but I kept the disc closer to my chest and gripped tightly just before the hit and the speed with which the disc left my hand was incredible! I don't know if I've ever had a disc leave my hand that fast!

Anyone doubting the validity of the technique suggestions Blake and Dave D. have mentioned should really take another look and really try it. Not necessarily the bent elbow or straight reach back, but the other, more detail-like items are crucial!

Thanks again, Blake!

wow daniel, that's the kind of D i was figuring you should be getting /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

both bent elbow and reach back throws are powered by the tendon bounce. it's just a matter of how you get there. reach back = more motion and focus more on arm speed. bent elbow = minimal motion and focus on acceleration at the hit. it's like going from point a to point b in a '74 impala or a '02 civic. both will get you there, both are powered by gasoline, but 1 is more efficient.

it does come down to the little things. i hosed my drives this weekend at the state championships by having improper thumb pressure. this was pointed out after the rounds (thanks tony). it's those dang little things that keep me inconsistent but each time i learn them, i find a new item of focus that i had previously neglected.

blake t.

Ok, got a question for you pundits out there. I was told this weekend that for max D, you need to keep the nose down, to the point that you can see the bottom of the disc as it flies.

I can understand this somewhat, in that if you see the top of your disc, it's going to hyzer out pretty quickly. Normally, I see my disc edge-on, as it is generally a line drive and relatively low (less than 20'). But, my question is, how do you "keep" the nose down? I read above where it says to (I think) finish with your hand/arm LOWER than the level at which you released your disc.

Any thoughts on this? Will the "nose-down" trick work for those who normally keep the altimeter on their discs in check?

Thanks!

Max D in a distance competition or golf? You need a very wide open hole to use a pure distance drive instead of a golf drive. Personally I would stick to the drive you are doing now. It sounds effective. (low and line drive)

When I throw distance I use an anhyzer and make sure to keep my thumb closer to the rim than the center of the disc. I also have been trying to keep my thumb more 'forward' on the disc which for me helps get the nose down at the end of the flight.

For good pictures of the compact throw (aka "bent elbow") also see the pictures of Ruth Steele, by Theo Pozzy at http://home.attbi.com/~tpozzy/prodrives.htm

to dave or anyone:

is there any comparative advantage/disadvantage (other than avoiding knee strain) to keeping your off leg back vs. stepping through during the pivot? it would appear that keeping your off leg back causes your body to "hinge" a little and would make you stronger across the chest on your pull, especially on hyzers. what i'm talking about is what climo, ken jarvis and sprague do on their follow-throughs.

blake t.

IMO hyzers are probably the only thing it might help with. It would hurt with turnovers and rollers as it would make it more difficult to finish the shot with the disc oriented properly. You could compensate with flippy discs, but that introduces variables that hurt acuracy.

Blake, I might have misunderstood what you said. The back leg steps through after the hips pivot, and after the shoulders pivot, and after the hit. The front foot pivot like wise happens just after the hit and before the step through. So I am not sure if you mean keeping the leftfoot behind the right as you pivot or not moving the foot.

Dave, he may be referring to the way that I allow my back leg to trail and lift (much like the counter-balance in putting).

Johnsolberg.com has a good illustration of this in new pool B #25. (On this shot I'm actually standing too tall to get under the nasty branch that knocked my Whippet x down - but it's still a good illustration). For me, lifting the leg balances my weight, allowing me to put more of my center of gravity forward.

I got to visit with Blake in Minneapolis this weekend, and I noticed that on his follow through he brought his back leg around in a sweeping motion right along with his hip. When I try this, I feel my energy go upward instead of projecting it outward. I don't know that it's wrong, but for me, I like to get my head and center of gravity forward over my pivot foot. On many shots the leg will eventually finish forward, but with Blake I felt like his came around too fast.

Blake, I look forward to your analysis of the few drives you got to see!! Thanks

interesting. i have only had a chance to throw a few times in the past few weeks and i haven't been able to keep up my practice schedule and my throw has varied as of late with new problems popping up here and there that i've had to correct. on occasion, i think my pivot might be starting too early. also on occasion, my step through starts when my hips open and maybe i should start regulating that. maybe i'll have more time to hit the field after my midterm this week. it's tough to develop any muscle memory when you are making changes and only get to throw once a week :P

chris: for an in depth analysis i'll need at least 7 frames of image and/or a video.

blake t.

I'll hook it up for ya!

Hope to see ya at the Cottage Grove Tournament.
Maybe we can capture some footage of Drummond and some other guys!!

I would like to point out a slight error in the terminology we are using. I'm a doctor and studied a lot of anatomy and even disected a few cadavers, and I can tell you that tendons actually don't stretch or bounce at all. Not even in the slightest. They are made of collagen which is the same thing leather is made of. The "bounce" is actually from the rebound in the muscle tissue, not the tendon. If you don't believe me when I say tendons don't stretch, just try stretching gristle the next time you eat steak. Tendons are as tough as leather, and leather doesn't bounce or stretch. Try making a sling shot using a leather strap instead of rubber hose. Zilch.

It's actually the muscle that rebounds, whether in human arms, kangaroo legs, etc, not the tendons. We should call it muscle rebound, not tendon bounce. Muscle fibers slide past each other, tendon fibers adhere strongly and don't slide.

What you say we start calling it muscle rebound from now on? That's the term that is used in sports medecine circles.

How about the jump muscles? the feet, calves, quads, and glutes. The spring action I'm feeling is a result of muscles more than springy(?sp)/msgboard/images/clipart/happy.giftendons?

sleeping in class again!

sorry should have read your whole post

Morgan, you may actually be right, but there are numerous references in the literature that refer to tendon bounce rather than muscle bounce. Two areas of research concerned the stored energy in the achilles tendon of the kangaroo giving him the efficiency in his motion, and the other most notable concerned the mechanics of pitching which referred to the tendons of the wrist and fingers as the bouncing mechanism. The fact that tendons are much more difficult to stretch, may be the reason as there are momentary large forces involved that might overpower muscles. Or you may be correct and the literature is wrong. I learned recently that the force necessary to launch a disc around 400 ft is 20 gees.

Just as an added note, the elasticity of ligaments has been rated at around 9 to 50%. The elasticity of tendons is up to 30%. This elasticity is variable depending on age, the particular tendon, and conditioning.

For anyone interested in this topic, type in "elastic tendons" into any search engine (I used google) and you will find plenty of info.

I learned recently that the force necessary to launch a disc around 400 ft is 20 gees.

Where did you learn that Dave? Is that taking into account aerodynamic properties and the lift & glide of the disc, or is that just for an "object" that weighs 170 grams?

Have you guys checked to see if your pocket protectors are straight lately?

Jim, that's a good question. My source (who is a very smart math guy) said "force necessary to launch a disc that far". I'll have to clarify with him. He was engineering a disc launching device.

chris: whether or not i play the oakwood tourney will depend on the weather. considering that i'm the type that would drop dead before i'd DNF, based on my core temperature during the last 2 tourneys i've played in, that seems like a very realistic possibility /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

yer camera is way better than mine, you should get some of the guys to throw some practice drives and get it on video and then do a breakdown similar to theo pozzy's including john maddenesque x's and o's on the stills.

even if i don't play at oakwood i'll probably stop by.

blake t.

There is even a couple of nice wide open holes @ oakwood which should work out nice for your project

Agent Provocateur, the g's of an acceleration does not depend on mass or arodynamics, it refers only to acceleration, not force. F = ma, the g's only refer to the "a" not the "F."

I think 20 g's seems a little high. One g is 32 feet/sec^2 and 20 g's would be 640 feet/sec^2 so if the disc is accelerating in your hand for 1 second it would leave your hand at 640 feet/sec. But I could be wrong. My pocket protector is <FONT SIZE=" 2">always</FONT> crooked.

Okay here's my math. To throw 400 feet you have to throw maybe 60 MPH, which is like 90 feet/second.

1. With the long reach back and cross step run-up technique, the disc is accelerating in your hand for maybe 1 whole second, so with one g of 32 then you need to throw with 3 g's to throw 96 feet/sec. So for the long reach back, it's 3 g's

2. With Dave's bent elbow technique with less reach back and run-up, the snap is much faster, I doubt the disc is accelerating in your hand for more than 1/4 second. So to launch a disc at 96 ft/sec you need to accelerate the disc at 12 g's.

3. Dave's friend has a launching device that (if it's built anything like the trap shooters) probably accelerates the disc for even less than 1/4 second so it's easy to believe this device has 20 g's of acceleration to launch a disc at 96 feet/second with only a fraction of a second of acceleration.

So okay, my math says 20 g's for the mechanical launching device, only 3 g's for the long reach back technique, and somewhere in between for the tendon bounce technique.

According to the Pozzy Analysis published in DGWN, the "best fit" line on speed vs. distance has a 400ft throw at 64mph. There were, however, 15 or more data points in his study in which the thrower threw less than 55mph and still threw over 400ft.

So in other words Morgan, your 60mph estimate isn't bad.

rodney

I just wanted to thank blake and anyone else who has seen my throw and given me some critiques. I just had 3 monster throws (for me at least) all of which were around the 400 mark (my average is 300-325). Hole 16 at Walnut Ridge in Des Moines (468 ft) I was about 60-70 ft from the pin. I was over 100 ft further than normal easily. I then turned around and crushed my drives on holes 1 and 2. It felt really good and took almost 0 effort.

Thanks again.

Yet another update for Blake et al on my progress:

I played at Freeman Lake Park (in Elizabethtown, KY) in their random draw doubles last night. I had several monster pulls with much, much less effort than ever before. Again, these were with discs other than my "long distance" drivers!

I do have one question, though. That is, according to Chris' post, when you bring your "off" leg around with your hips, you are losing out on energy that potentially could have gone to the disc. I noticed that I am doing this same thing. To get this, do you bend a lot at the waist? In Chris' picture that he referenced, it looks as if he's bending quite a bit at the waist and also doing a deep knee bend over his plant knee. I don't think I'm bending my plant knee much, if any, at all. My question is this: where do these bends come into play in the throws? Is it in the weight transfer, stepping out with the plant foot further from your body, or something else entirely?

(Blake or Chris--if you're ever in the Kentucky/Ohio/Indiana area and really want to analyze my form, feel free...) =)

You need some time in that equation. 20 Gs applied for how long from a standing start? 1 earth gravity = 32 feet per second squared so 20 Gs is 640 feet per second squared. If a disc golfer applied a steady force (Probably anatomically impossible) of 20 Gs to a disc for .4 seconds the resulting velocity would be 640 X .16 = 102.4 feet per second or 69.8 miles per hour. Some of the force imparted goes in to spin, however. My guess is that the real G force varies from almost 0 at the point of furthest reach back, to something higher than 20 Gs when tendon bounce takes over from arm motion at the hit. A machine that replicates the human throwing motion should be really interesting. Now if I can calculate how to throw furhter than 275'. /msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif

daniel: the hip thing is something i'm currently having trouble with. i'm going to try regulating it tonight a little bit when i throw a round. there's a few things that will force a waist bend. 1) lots of forward momentum at and immediately after the hit. 2) your weight shift needed with the angle of your x-step on the teepad. 3) planting with a large knee bend.
if you look at cam todd, he has tremendous waist bend after the hit and only mild bend at the hit. he also has so much forward momentum that he generally takes 2-3 steps off the front of the tee after the hit. as for sprague, i think that his waist bend is a combination of the 3 things mentioned above, but mainly 1 and 3. my waist bend generally occurs more from #2. i do a back-right to front-left x-step and to get my weight shifted and balanced i need a slight bend. you can also force a bend by lowering your right shoulder during your backswing/closing of the shoulders.

looking at that pic of sprague, i will guess his throw line (already knowing he threw a whippet) was probably a hyzer that was going to flatten or almost flatten and ride fairly straight for 60-70% of its flight and then finish hard left and be in the 12-18' of height range. i'm also guessing that during his backswing his left shoulder was level with or slightly higher than his right.

keep in mind i can't emulate sprague. if he is a limo then i am a humvee. although if i flex one of my calves it's probably bigger than his thigh, he probably has 12" or more of wingspan on me. anyways, i'll let you know how my hip regulation works tonight.

blake t.

I've been told I have tremendous arm speed and because of this and the momentum it and the twisting motion generates, I generally spin around so that I am facing off the right of the tee pad. (I throw RHBH.)

Come to think of it, I have had it happen where my left leg did come up on a few drives. What this seemed to do is to stop my rotation, a la Juliana K.'s style. I realize the physics behind this and I guess that's why I'm curious as to why you would want your leg/core body out of line, so as to slow your rotation and potentially lessen the strength of your throw...

Yeah, ok, so I may think about this to much...

Rodney, et al, we had some of the best aerodynamic engineers in the world measuring launch velocity at approx. 69 mph. for me 15 years ago. They did not use a radar gun which is inacurate. They used high speed cameras over a grid map and did the calculations based on frames per second and grid travel from an overhead camera. I would imagine that the Christians (Sandstrom and Voigt) would be somewhere in the 70s for mph

Chris Voigt was measured at 82 MPH but that was by radar which is not as accurate as the grid photography sounds.

Matt Ambrose, the formula for velocity is:

at = v

so your equation should be:

640 X .4 = 256 ft/sec

not:

640 x .16 = 102.5

You don't need to square the time. That automatically cancels when you multiply acceleration times time, the units cancel.

More interesting (to me) than the speed at which throws are made would be the rpm. Has anyone ever taken these measurements?

rodney

Ok, so he's taking the flight properties of the disc into account, because we already know the launch speed (and spin) necessary to get the 400'flight. i.e. if you launched a rock (not a Roc) at 60 mph, it ain't gonna travel 400'.

Doesn't a launch of "20 gees" require a gallery?

Spin is directly related to launch velocity, but has very little to do with anything after a minimum rpm is reached. Only at lower speeds, can you hyperspin a disc. At higher launch velocities, you can only lose spin and speed.

Right you are Morgan. Just shows you shouldn't try to do math on half a cup of coffee. Anyway, acceleration using muscles and tendon bounce is not going to be a linear function so it's tough to get a meaningful equation to describe it.

got a grip question... i've been having trouble lately with my grip in 2 areas lately and as i haven't been able to practice at all really in the past few weeks a lot of these have developed unconsciously and i'm trying to fix them. the first is that my pinky isn't leaving the rim early enough and i'm pulling my throws. i know part of this is that i'm getting my elbow extended slightly early and not getting enough acceleration on the disc but i'm wondering if there's any little tricks to help ease this problem. i'm thinking the quick fix is to position my pinkey closer to the bottom of the rim rather than at deeper into the rim closer to the flight plate. any recommendations for modification?

the second is that i was applying thumb pressure with my tip of my thumb and at an angle which was pushing the back and outter edges down. i've since modified the thumb pressure but i have really small hands and i can't quite find a way to get the disc to pivot out nose down other than following-through lower. a lightbulb just popped on in my head and i was wondering if moving my thumb further forward would get the disc to pivot out more nose down. my current thumb placement has the thumb over the soft part of the flight plate right where it meets the rim and in line with my index finger. would moving my thumb beyond the contact point of my index finger (keep my thumb the same distance from the edge but have my thumb pressure on the far side of my index finger) help the disc pivot off more nose down?
theoretically in terms of fulcrums this should work but i'm curious if i'm on the right track.

blake t.

Blake, I suggested that exact same thumb position further up the board. It's what I use when throwing in distance competition and sometimes while golfing. It works great for me. You may need to give the shot a little more height but i'm not sure.

***Cut to Geek mode***

Back to acceleration calculations. I'm still wondering if it's possible to calculate how many Gs need to be applied to a disc to get it 400 ft.
From Theo Pozzy's article in DGWN (Spring 2001, p. 25) the median speed to get to 400 ft. was 65mph. [Although the speeds to get to 400 ft. varied from 47 mph to 77 mph.]
Velocity of 65 mph = 95 ft/sec. (65 X 5280 ft � 3600 sec).
1 G = 32 ft/sec\ {2}.

But we're missing the time factor of how long it takes to accelerate the disc from 0 to 95 ft/sec at launch. If this was known it would be a simple matter to calculate how many Gs are needed. Without it I'm stuck. Any ideas?

By way of example, if the throw takes 1 second then needed acceleration = 95 ft/sec\ {2} = 3 Gs. [95 ft/sec\ {2} X 1 sec = 95 ft/sec]
At � sec. then accel = 180 ft/sec\ {2}= 5.6 Gs [95 ft/sec\ {2} X 0.5 sec = 95 ft/sec]
At 2 sec the accel = 47.5 ft/sec\ {2}= 1.48Gs [47.5 ft/sec\ {2} X 2 sec = 95 ft/sec]
At 0.15 sec the accel = 640 ft/sec\ {2}= 20Gs
[640 ft/sec\ {2} X 0.148 sec = 95 ft/sec]

Any thoughts?

***Leave Geek Mode***

(Sorry, once an engineer always an engineer, even though I've never even worked as an engineer)

Lowe, the true acceleration takes much less than one second, but you don't start from 0. The acceleration that counts is when the disc gets real heavy in your hand. Those are the gee forces. Those mainly occur in the snap.

Blake, first the pinkie thing. I put my pinkie on top of my ring finger. It makes my ring finger stronger and gets my crappy little pinkie out of the way. Second, if you use the base of your thumb to oppose your fingers in the snap, you can use your thumb pad to push the nose down and to feel the position of the disc. You will have to extend your thumb beyond your rip point. concentrate on feeling the disc rip off your fingers. You may have to use light thumb pad pressure at first, to not let past habits, (thumb pad pressure opposing) interfere with new habits.

dave: i haven't had a chance to try it but i think i conceptualized the actual source of the problem. i'm pretty sure i was letting my elbow extend too early and not keeping it close enough to my body which, in turn was throwing off the abrupt stop of the wrist and causing the disc to rip off with velocity vectors angled off to the right instead of straight out and it wasn't a grip issue. this seems to happen if i let my leg muscles tighten up and can't generate a quick enough shoulder rotation.

as for other things, i finally broke down and bought a video capture device tonight and have already begun to do some stuff with it. for those looking for a vid clip frame by frame view of ron russell's bent elbow throw:
http://www.discgolf.com/discreview/ronrussell.html
i will be adding an analysis when i get the time. i guess the big comment i'll make to those using it for reference, the down-and-up motion of his arm from the pull to the follow-through and his wrist roll under (palm down after the hit) will cause an air bounce (which is how ron throws his drives).

on a side note, i wrote a putting article last week and added some pictures/video with analysis tonight:
http://www.discgolf.com/discreview/shortarmputt.html
the article is on short arm putting which also utilizes (but on a smaller scale) the tendon bounce.

blake t.

Hey Blake,

Just as an FYI, I have been using to great effect your and Dave D's advice on driving. However, I do a "mix" of the bent elbow and the straight reach back.

On my mid-range drives and long upshots (under 275'), I use the bent elbow and Rocs, which works well, but I just can't seem to get the distance with it. If it's longer than about 275', I use the straight reach back with mid-ranges (Rocs)to reach 340' . I've been able to capitalize on my natural arm speed and get my hips and shoulders in coordination to get some serious hang time and D out of both my drivers and mid-ranges.

I was just curious if you or Dave D had experienced this mixing of styles before in any of the pros or others that you've seen, or if you have any advice, I'd appreciate it!

Thanks!

daniel: does your elbow get totally straight sorta like eric tracy (http://www.discgolfmedia.com/video/usdgc/17hy.mpg) or is it more like cam todd's mostly straight but a little bent? just curious.

in scott stokely's instructional video #1 he covers 2 styles of driving 1 for max D with a huge reachback and 1 more compact for accuracy (he calls it "the dual technique method"). my bent elbow throw isn't a totally bent elbow like ron russell as i let my arm extend a bit during the backswing because if i don't i get a ton of snap/spin on the disc but i don't get enough forward velocity. i peak with my drivers around 330-340' with a pure bent elbow and the disc runs out of gas while it still has a ton of spin on it. i throw my midranges with more of a bent elbow and i throw ~30' longer with rocs/aviars/wizards when my elbow is bent 90 degrees than when i get a longer reach.

considering you're getting the D i'm aspiring for (i've got to add about 50'...) i'd probably recommend throwing your putter for 275' shots with the technique that gets you 340' with your roc unless what you are currently doing works really well for you, then there's no reason to change.

blake t.

It's sort of like Eric's, except that I keep the disc (and my arm) a bit closer to my body, I think. Also, if the hole were longer, I think our styles would be closer. Come to think of it, his throw looks a lot like what I call the bent elbow and use for my slow, straight Roc shots.

I get both a ton of spin and a ton of speed with this method. I can keep the new CE Teebirds (with the lip) flat (or them gettin' a bit flippy) for 375' before they start to hyzer. The funny thing is that I can do the same throw for Rocs (DX plastic) and not flip them, throwing just as hard! I can't figure that one out. My guess is the spin keeps them flat.

Daniel

eric starts with a bent elbow and then at the peak of his backswing the arm goes perfectly straight. that clip is a tough angle to see it on. john houck refers to this as a "hitch in his backswing" on the 2001 worlds video and i was able to watch him throw a few rounds during the week. i can't generate nearly that kind of power starting with a straight arm.

i guess i must have developed a pretty big hyzer tendency as i'm throwing the newer CE T and 10X KC Eagles as my overstable drivers and they are the most overstable discs in my bag.

blake t.

Yes, I guess that is, in essence, what I do. The only exception is I take 2 steps and bang! there she goes. I'd like to develop a run-up, but all I do is right-left-plant-whip. Make is pretty tidy, I will say...

I agree with you, Blake on the new CE T's, that they are the most overstable disc in my bag. I used to carry CE Firechickens, but the Teebirds just are so much easier to hyzer and glide and glide and glide...

Daniel, I wouldn't change your run up if I were you. Shorter is better for golf. Whether your arm is straight to begin with or not, the important thing is to have the disc close to your body and not waste any shoulder turn on rebending your elbow into position, but instead use the turn of your shoulders to aid (centrifugally) the opening of your elbow. A shoulder and upper arm windup is important, but the disc doesn't have to be back.

To finish the last thought; if you reach back with your elbow in your backswing, you will have all the power you need. If you keep the disc close to your body when you do this, you will be wasting less of it. An easy way to do this is to extend your upper arm away and back at the same time, by rotating (slumping) your right shoulder forward.

Blake-- What Capture card did you buy? And what software are you using?

greg: after being burned in the past with buying expensive capture devices and having them go obsolete in the past (i have an mpeg wizard i paid $200 for years back and it wasn't compatible beyond win95) i bought a dazzle dvc 80 usb adapter and i'm using their supplied software mgi somethinorother 4. it's not great but gets the job done for $69. i specifically chose real format as the medium since it's small (albeit low quality) and i really didn't feel like posting a "how to use the divx codec" tutorial with the video clips. what do ya think of em so far so i can get ways to make it better...

also, are you going to be at oakwood tomorrow?

blake t.

I was toying with the idea of getting that same adapter but was afraid of the quality. I think the clips you have look fine. What kind of quality is possible? Something that would look decent on a tv?

I tweaked out my shoulder somehow throwing forehand so I think I'll skip Oakwood. (I imagine myself needing a forehand on several holes at Oakwood). My next tourney will be the Millstream Open in St. Joseph.

Blake thanks for the short arm putt article. I think it fixed my biggest problem. I was basically doing the exact putt but not squaring my shoulders. I find it is much easier to get the momentum rock motion with my shoulders squared. And the release elevation advise helped to. There is more I could say but, for me, it is the best advise on putting I have read.

greg: the quality is okay. the max res is some weird number like 384x255 but the only ones that allow for compression are 320x200. i may redo the clips as the contrast is off on those ones. if you don't use compression you might be able to squeak by with this stuff on tv if you don't sit too close to it.

shane: glad you found it helpful. it's always the little things that seem to matter which is why i'm so wordy on my articles /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif
i should be writing more soon but i'm not sure yet what it's going to be. the recent slew of people i've played with that don't throw their putters off the tee has me leaning towards something on finessing approach discs for D.

blake t.

i added a small video clip and a couple of frames showing the tendon bounce to my bent elbow follow-up article. here's a link directly to that section

http://www.discgolf.com/discreview/bentelbow2.html (http://www.discgolf.com/discreview/bentelbow2.html#action)

i'm also looking for any volunteers who would like their driving or putting techniques to be featured on video in a couple of new sections i will be adding to my website. it would probably be similar to theo pozzy's dgwn article but it'd be open to players of all levels and not just pros that can throw 500'. alternate techniques would be great too (sidearm, tomahawks, etc.).

i'm going to be posting some footage soon from the 2002 minnesota majestic of cam todd, avery jenkins, tim schreder, shawn sinclair, ron russell, and barry schultz soon. i'm going to redo a lot of the video i've already captured as i've started to better understand my editing software.

blake t.

Dave, et al, I've been diagnosed with a severe case of tendonitis in my right index finger. The doctor says don't play for three to four weeks (ouch!) I throw with three fingers inside the rim, and the pinky curled (hurts like heII!) Can you suggest a grip that won't torque my index finger as much, or maybe I'm just throwing wrong?

I can, but I'm just a lowly a adv master. What do I know. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif I don't think describing it would do the trick. Guess you're not coming for Worlds?

Brian, there are several grips that don't torque the index finger. Fan grip, fork grip, stack grip, three finger power with index on outside of rim, and Bonopane. I would suggest the Climo stack or the three finger power grip.

Thanks, is there a refernce web site, that describes these grips?

Colonel, I'll be at Worlds strictly as a member of the gallery!

brian: the best grip site i have found:
http://newhanoverdiscgolf.tripod.com/pages/golfschool.htm

dave: got yet another question about bent elbow throwing /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

i've been looking at the strength of the hit and resulting margin of error from various starting points (at rest positions) of the disc and i was curious if there are any rule of thumb suggestions for maximum power and minimum error. the 3 starting points i was looking at were, if your shoulders were perpendicular to the target and elbow close to your body, outside (disc beyond your body), on line (disc at your body) and inside (disc breaks the straight line plane on the inside). i feel strongest starting outside, but i've found if my hit timing and elbow extension are not perfect, i will pull the disc to the right and expose flight plate early. starting online, i feel medium strong but if my shoulders don't come through perfectly i will "chest" the disc, bouncing it off my left pectoral, killing the power, but the disc will fly perfectly straight. i did some experimenting with starting inside and that feels very weak, but it seems like the best choice for a nose down hyzer as its natural tendency will propel the disc either straight out or towards the top of the disc. from the 2001 worlds video it appears you use an on line start and compensate for the "chesting" by starting above your shoulder while the video of steve brinster seems to start inside. i know in the article it says that the line of the pull will not matter, but a repeatable perfect hit also requires consistency that i (and i assume others still on the learning curve) definitely do not have so i'm assuming there's an error minimizing train of thought on this. i know with a perfect throw, all should fly with the same line but their error tendencies with less than perfect throws differ greatly.

thanks,
blake t.

Blake, I am having a hard time understanding what you are doing this time. First, I don't know why you would want your elbow close to your body. I might start with the line of my shoulders pointing at the target, but my shoulders will wind up where my back would be facing the target approximately. During the first part of the shoulder turn, bring the disc to the point from which it will be whipped. You can do this the hard way starting with a straight arm, or the easy way starting with a bent arm. Either way, the disc starts into the whip from in front of the chest. Brian Schweberger does this very well. The elbow gets to its maximum bend during this phase. As for accuracy. It is timing and feel. All the mechanical things can not match timing and feel. The quicker the whip and hit, the easier the timing, and the more efficient is the use of developed power. Once you can feel the disc ripping off your fingers, you can time and aim with this feeling. Everything else you do during the throw is to power and accommodate that feel. I don't know if I've answered your question or not as we may be speaking of a slightly different way of looking at a throw.

i guess what i'm referring to is at the peak of the shoulder rotation where the shoulders are most "closed" and back is somewhat pointed at the target and before the opening of the shoulders has begun. at that furthest back point, where should the disc be? this depends on the angle of the upper arm and bend of the elbow. if the upper arm is reached back as far as possible and the elbow kept bent, the disc will be on the "inside" of where the hit will occur. when i used to throw reach back, i would put the disc back directly on the line of the hit and my arm straight and the angle between my upper arm and shoulders from the top view would be ~90 degrees. when i started throwing bent elbow, i used approximately the same upper arm angle but with a bent elbow and less shoulder rotation. this put the disc starting point farther away from the body and "outside" the line of the hit. while the velocity vectors generated by the tendon bounce should be linear, if the hit isn't as strong as it should be at that point, it seems the momentum carried from the starting point to the launch would come into play slightly. i know that mechanics aren't as important as timing, but you can set your mechanics in a way to make them less succeptable to and reducing the effects of timing errors. i know the feel, but i don't always have the feel "that day."

btw, when i referred to "elbow close to the body" that was in reference to the elbow extended (straight arm) and far away from the body. hope this clears up what i was asking somewhat. i'm big on the conceptual side of things as then i can create mental checklists of what is most important to run through when my throw is malfunctioning and hopefully adjust during an off round.

thanks,

blake t.

Blake, I am exactly the same way conceptually, but I try to turn that part off and make it an observer rather than a participant. As for the discription of your throw: It does not make any sense to bend your arm in the backswing and have the disc farther away from your body (center of your rotation). One of the two points in prebending the arm is to get the disc and hand close to your body to enable a quicker shoulder turn, like the previously mentioned ice skater's arms close to her body to enable a quick spin. The other point is to keep the entire portion of the windup, upto the beginning of the whip generation, as compact as possible. If you can send a video clip of your throw to me, I will be able to see exactly what you are doing, and I may be able to suggest improvements.

light bulb just clicked on. i was thinking about it in a different way. the way i was seeing it before was to use the bent elbow to get the most tendon bounce acceleration on the disc over the shortest physical distance and in doing so i was missing it. the conceptualization of the hit i had before was without a disc in hand. i see now that the hit i was getting did have a lot of tendon bounce to it but it did not have a natural stopping point which i was having to control by elbow placement and fighting some of the natural tendencies of the motion and causing inconsistency. i've found now if i put the disc at or over my left shoulder and then force all upper body motion to be incidental there is a very powerful, compact bounce that occurs and a very natural stopping point for the wrist and also a better feel for thumb placement and how it affects the throw.

i'll try to shoot some video of this on tuesday. trouble i'm having is that my throw has been so off lately that the video i have from 6 weeks ago is no longer accurate. i get to throw so infrequently now that i spend most of the time that i do play trying to get my throw "back."

thanks again,

blake t.

Dave,
I read soooooo much about overstable discs. Everyone seems to want CE-Max Weight-Overstable drivers and Rocs. Nothing seems to be overstable enough for them. I got fooled into thinking understable discs are no good. I spent the last 2 years struggling with these overstable discs. I recently started throwing understable/stable discs again and my game is finally improving (CE Classic ROC is improving my game more than any other disc I have owned). Do you find that a certain stability works best for the 'bent elbow' technique?
Thanks!

Danny, I personally think the overstable disc is overused. I know that at least three of our top players including Cam Todd use Tee Birds for most of their drives and it is just a straight flyer. There are times when overstable is a good choice, and that is in very windy conditions or when you need to turn a shot over and have it come back. As for stability of discs combined with the compact (bent elbow) style of throwing; I don't think so, but I don't throw too many overstable discs myself and I drive well over 400 on a line drive type throw. Also, I get much better distance with straight or slightly unstable discs, such and JK Valks or TeeBirds as opposed to FireBirds or Banshees.

Thanks for the grip resource, Blake!

Thanks Dave! I just started using the JK Valk as well and I am getting a good 30-50' more than my CE Valks on the open field. JK Valk, CE Classic Roc, and a couple rollers (BH and FH) seem to be all I need lately.

danny: a lot of it has to do i think with the tendencies of your throw. if you throw flat and nose down you'll need something overstable and with a stronger finish fade for when it hits the turnover. if throwing with hyzer tendency you can get away with less overstable discs. i've found more of it has to do with the disc's ability to "plane out" by flipping up to flat and holding instead of flipping up and over. the teebird T, JLS, jk valks, and the 1st/3rd/4th run ce valks are great for this type of a flight without too much fade at the end. when i'm off with my drives, i throw the dx valk for max d, but when i'm on, the valks turn too much when the reach cruise (even with a ton of hyzer on them) and i use dx eagles and teebirds for 90% of my long drives. i guess my ideal is whatever is "overstable enough" for the situation as given the option, i'd much rather throw a hyzer than flat or anhyzer. i can say however, that if i had the power the guys w/ the really big arms do, i might want to throw more overstable stuff. but i also agree that overstable discs are a tad overused and i see too many players out there trying to force s-curves rather than going for a more predictable line.

blake t.

i added a new frame-by-frame breakdown from multiple angles as well as new videos of ron russell's bent elbow throw to my website:

http://www.discgolf.com/discreview/resources/analysis/ronrussell.shtml

blake t.

That third throw seems like it could be a foot foul. Do you know if anyone called it?

I HEARD SOME SWEDE TREW A 169GR VALK 810FT
NEW DISTANCE RECORD,ANYBODY KNOW........

Woody, that Swede is Christian Sandstrom, the disc is a dx teebird upper 160's gram weight. The throw was 250 meters = 820 ft.

I thought it was a 150 DX Valk???

The Inova ad in issue 62 of DGWN says it was a 169g DX Valkyrie.

don't forget about the 25MPH wind. Still a huge crush but just wanted all the facts out there..and training at a sport institute with instruments to measure disc speed , angles of your body which techniques give you most spin and so on. Just doesn;t sound FAIR to us guys without access to that technology.. NICE Throw Christian,,

Let's start a controversy here ,what kind of disc was it. I heard it was a 169 valk, but I believe
The number "1" ranked golfer in the world would know before DGWN.........

Ken Jarvis held the record for less than a day with a DX Teebird at 806 feet.

Christian broke that record with a Valkyrie, and as you'll notice in the new DGWN (arriving soon if not there already), Christian says himself in an interview that he threw a 169g DX Valkyrie to break the record.

Just read that.NUFF SAID.....

Wow was I wrong! I thought that the disc golf world had come together like never before when Innova players were allowed to throw Discraft's z-mrv to break the record in a token of unity.

169 DX Valk? Sweet. That's been my longest disc since they came out! About time somebody good proved it was long disc.

Blake, Thanks for the Player Throw Analysis on you web site. Any plans to add more players?

steve:
aside from the 4 i've posted, i have 2 more i'm going to post from my current video stock and they are cam todd and barry schultz. 4 people are supposedly sending me videos but most of them have been along the lines of "when i get access to a camcorder" so i'm not sure how long that will take. i posted to our local email list to see if anyone would be willing to let me shoot em on video and hopefully that will start to pan out. it basically comes down to what i can get footage of or if someone wants to dig up copyright info on things to see if i could legally pull images from the worlds videos, etc. i know with music you can do 30 seconds, but i'm pretty sure that it differs for visual media.

if more people can send in footage i'll post it but i'm hoping to get multiple angles of stuff so i can do what i've been doing. luckily the pros i've videod so far are quite consistent so i've been able to match up frames from different shots fairly well.

blake t.

i threw the most rounds i've ever thrown in a week this week and for the first time ever i have pretty big pain in my index finger. i assume this is probably similar to brian s.'s index finger torquing problem and i have been throwing with a different grip for the past 2 weeks. i guess i have a grip question about that, which angles between the finger and disc will lead to the least amount of torquing? do i want the index finger to be closer to a 90 degree angle with the rim or should it be more parallel to the edge of the disc to alleviate this problem?

thanks

blake t.

Don't take this as an authoritative answer, (I haven't studied it), but right off hand I would say most good players would be at approximately 45 degrees. I don't know of any at 90 degrees and I know a few, including myself who are less than 45 degrees.

I've noticed a pain in all my fingers on my throwing hand when throwing for maximum D. Its hard to explain, but when I focus on a VERY firm grip and good snap, I almost jam my fingers with the centrifugal force. I don't always get this, just when I'm working on distance and ripping the disc as hard as I can. Now when I'm really focusing on distance I seem to grip the disc slightly differently, and noticably harder. I have noticed that when I do feel this pain the disc flys at least 100ft farther. I guess it would be a pain between the first and second knuckles. Is this what your experiencing Blake?

chris: that is exactly what i am feeling. i've had a lot of joint injuries before so i know this is a tendon/ligament/cartilage problem and i really really want to avoid anything permanent or long term. it's sort of like a constant throb. i had some slight pain while i was throwing last night and it's been pretty constant today. it's bearable but something tells me it's not right and i should take it easy for the next day or two. i wasn't really getting big D the last few days but i have been feeling a lot of rip off my index finger to the point where it's twisting.

dave: the "most good players" part is enough for me to make sure i'm at 45 or less.

thanks

blake t.

i've also added a few more players to the throw analysis section on my website:
http://www.discgolf.com/discreview/resources/throwanalysis.shtml

should have a few more up within the next week.

the pain I was experiencing was really only on the course or for a few hours after the round or practice. Not the next day. I think i was holding my fingers at close to a 90 degree angle to the disc and this added to the pressure in the area.

i think part of it was that i threw more than i usually do this past week. i'll often play 5 rounds in 7 days but this past week i played 15. i could feel a lot of rip off my index finger last night and i don't think the disc was leaving my hand as cleanly as i would have liked as i was pulling a lot of my drives. i'll try some minor adjustments next time i throw.

blake t.

I have a question regarding the hit in my golf swing. If I understand Dave D. correctly, my forearm/wrist should be loose up to the hit, and at the point of the hit, should tighten. I'm having a problem with reaching the hit, and tightning my grip/wrist/forearm, and continuing my follow-through in one smooth motion. I encounter a moment of hesitation at the hit when I tighten, and this causes me a loss of momentum on my follow through. Is there something wrong with my swing, or is this something I need to work through. My distance is only about 280-300ft. so any helpful advice is appreciated.

Disctint, you need to focus on the disc as the tip of the whip powered by your shoulder and hip turn and snapped by your elbow extention and wrist motion/disc pivot. Your wrist stopping and stiffening will cause the disc to pivot and rip off your fingers aided by the catapult action of your wrist and fingers. This will only happen if your grip is sufficient to allow a powerful pivot and rip, your acceleration is sufficient, to work the catapult of your stiffened wrist and fingers, and your pull through the pivot and rip (by continuing the shoulder turn and arm pull) is sufficient. All of the things that you need to do have to be guided by the feel of the disc through the rip. In other words, your primary focus has to be on the disc. Your secondary or peripheral focus can be use to help you do what you need to do to operate the disc whip.

"Your wrist stopping and stiffening will cause the disc to pivot and rip off your fingers..."

Hey, I made this work and now I have to throw lefty! Anybody want an O-negative dyed Valkyrie? /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

Thanks for the advice. Those answers were posted faster then the scores for Pro Worlds, and those scores were posted fast.

Before this thread started, I had looked at photos in old issues of DGJ, and DGWN, and came across a few photos of touring pros throwing a drive, and being photographed right at the point of the hit. I didn't know what the hit was at the time, but I noticed they all had their wrist in what looked like a locked position. I had already been playing for a couple of years, and had to train myself to lock my wrist as my arm was reaching full extension. It's good to get information here that explains, and breaks down the throw into concepts you can focus on.

for those interested in pure distance technique i posted some footage and frame breakdowns of jon drummond on my throw analysis section doing a 360 turnaround drive:
http://www.discgolf.com/discreview/resources/analysis/jondrummond2.shtml

both of these throws were over 500' with the right column's throw being well over 500'.

blake t.

Just love those photo series. Thanks Blake.

On to a brief comment on the frames of Jons 360: In the pics I think it looks like his weight shift over to the right leg in the actual throw could be optimized. He seems to do a really long last step, a very hard right foot plant, and then his body gets somewhat stuck in that position. A more pronounced weight shift would probably give a more upright body position which would allow for a faster spin, and hence more speed. Compare to a figure skater in a pirouette, the body spins around some kind of "center axis of rotation", and if body parts (like legs, arms, and shoulders) are further out from that axis, the rotation speed is much slower.

Of course technique varies a lot, and a hard right foot plant is also good (compare to javelin throwers...) when you try to get the power from the run-up transferred into the disc. This needs a lot of muscle power in your back and abdominals though, and will even cause your hip to hurt a bit if you plant too hard. The trick is to find the perfect balance between the foot plant/power and the rotation/speed. If you've had a chance to see Christian Sandstr�ms 360 you know what i mean. An interesting comparizon is also with Ken Jarvis, who throws more with technique than raw power, and in a very upright position.

If you study Jons 360 and his normal throw on Blake's web pages, you see that from the last step and on, his throw is almost identical. I think Jon has the potential to get even more pure distance in a 360 if he experimented a bit with a slightly shorter last 360 step, a more upright body position, and maybe a somewhat later release.

Of course this is just for pure D. Nothing to really use on the golf course... ;)

Really interesting too see the different frame-by-frame video excerpts of different techniques. Nice work Blake.

Spinning: Heel vs Toe

Started doing the X step this year. On the plant foot, I end up spinning on the ball of the foot as opposed to the heel. Most footage I see, like frame 6 of Jon's 360 that Blake has, shows people spinning on their heel.

The toe spin came naturally, or maybe just a result of doing a bad bent arm for years.

When playing in cross trainers that are too loose, with thin socks, invariably there will be pain in the ball of the foot. When wearing hiking boots and boot socks, I seldom have a problem. One painful episode came this summer in leagues (tennis not boots) from a temp placement on very rough pavement. The extra grip halted my spin, folded the ball of my foot, and as a result the disc came left of the target (RHBH X step).

Anybody else experience this, or have suggestions as to if or why I should learn to spin on the heel instead of the ball of the plant foot?

peter: glad you like the photos. when we shot the video, jon watched a few of em playback and said that he was stopping himself at the end of the throw and he usually doesn't do that. from talking to jon about it, i do know that he focuses more on a push off of his cross step into the hip rotation than focusing on the weight shift alone. i have seen christian and ken throw and i do know what you are referring to.

andrew: from the sound of it, you might not be getting a clean pivot, i.e. jamming your pivot foot and forcing the pivot to occur. i've asked several players that are much better than me about pivoting on the heel vs. ball and most have said to stay away from the heel for injury reasons. the pros that i have seen that successfully pivot on their heel all carry a tremendous amount of momentum into their pivot.

blake t.

Does anyone have a noticeable "flutter" when they are throwing hard? If so how did you stop that or what am I doing so different? I have played long enough to know grips and technique, but something is not right. Please no jokes on this, I realize my 350' max distance may be funny to a lot of you...punks


thanks

If this is a recent thing, it is most likely wrist supination (rolling out palm up) or pronation (rolling in palm down) through the snap. The most common is pronation. Another potential that is unlikely on drivers, but much more likely on deeper rimmed discs, is to put your finger pads too high up on the rim such that you are smashing them into the corner of the rim and flight plate. This causes flutter with some grips.

I thought Dave would recommend a change in discs /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

A thought just occured...My wife pivots on her heel, follows through on the ball. I pivot on the ball, follow through by bringing the left foot forward and stepping down. Her pivot knee is straight, mine is bent, she stands more erect on the drive, I am in a little bit more of a crouched position. Would guess that most heel pivoters stand erect and have a straight knee.

Side note: I buy shoes to fit the left foot, which is 1/2 size larger than the right pivot foot. As a result, I need to snug up the right shoe and pad the inside by wearing thick socks. They say it's a common problem.

Blake, thanks for the feedback.

I have a pivoting technique that has been effective for me with my arthritic feet, knees, and hips. Instead of putting your plant foot 90 degrees to the target, you might try opening it up to 60 degrees or so. At the same time you want to bend slightly at the knees and waist. When you step on your plant foot, step on the heel and roll to the ball and pivot.

On a related topic, power is directly related to the size of the whip you use. If you whip with your arm only, (as many beginners do), you have little power available, but the throw is easy to coordinate. If you throw with arm, shoulders, to waist, you have more power and a little more to coordinate or time. The more advanced throwers use a lot of hip motion to drive and anchor the whip. The whip is longer with more articulations and levers so it is more difficult to time or coordinate, but available power is much higher. The longest whip travels from the ball of your plant foot right to the disc. You can feel the whip pulling on your plant foot instead of your hip, which is usual for advanced players. Each time you add levers and articulations (joints like knees, ankles, hips), you change the timing and coordinated motions, but you add potential power.

That's great insight Dave! Keep it coming. Sometimes a point needs to be expressed a couple of times before us dummies get into our heads /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

Another related topic to the plant foot is the order in which things occur. Plant foot comes down, hips pivot, then disc is accelerated. Although the disc does move when the hips are turning, it should be (or remain next to your body with elbow bent) until the hips have opened.

Brad,
One guess is you are not gripping the disc tight enough.
Another thought would be your angle of the disc in your hand.
You throw noze up, which is great for control and accuracy but not that good when it comes to penetration.
Take your sparkley grey wildcat and grip it with your normal grip, then try and get the back edge up higher in the groove of your hand so the disc is more nose down in the hand.
Try to eliminate all gaps of light between the disc and your palm, one way to do this is move your thumb closer to the center. Then grip it tighter than you ever have before!!
Since you have been throwing YOUR way for sooooooooooooo long it will be very difficult to actually change without losing the accuracy you have.
If you want more D you must COMMIT and be willing to lose accuracy at first.Most players who have been playing as long as you are not willing to sacrifice their level of play during the transition period, ARE YOU??

Heel Vs Toe issue:
after listening to a friend who has watched my drive progress rather closely over the last year or so, i have come to the understanding that when you use your heel you get more distance on your drive, however when you use your to you get more accuracy on your drive. I can't really describe the reasonings for this conclusion cause i was just told by a friend, but i do know now that naturually without even thinking about it i pivot on my toe for anything under 350 and my heelf for stuff that is much more. as always thats my 2 cents.

I've been reading ball golf books. Up until 1940 or so everybody used a full hip turn, now they all use minimal hip. The key thing is to get as much torso twist as you can and that's easier the less the hips do. So I tried that, added 30 feet to each shot.

It also helps to stay upright and balanced when reaching back, instead of leaning away from the target.

i can consistantly throw my valks 420 /- and am fairly happy with my distance and control. here is my dilema-- the other day i tried a 133 leopard and 150 jls. i just put a vertical hyzer on them and they stood up and went as far if not further than my valks. they also went alot higher. i figured with practice i could throw these consistantly further than my valks, albeit with less control. my question is why? could it be the narrower rim which maybe gives me more spin on my snap? maybe it is the fact that i usually play at 5500-8000 feet above sea level and the lighter discs go further up here?

Steven, lighter discs carry better, launch faster, slow down faster. At altitude, with less air to slow them down, and the same amount of gravity, light discs will fly farther, especially up hill. Down hill doesn't apply. It's not the difference in disc types.

A couple of questions concerning open field practice: 1.What distance should us Ams aspire to (4,5,6)? 2.When practicing 4-500 ft. how big of a landing zone radius do you find acceptable? 3.As a result of a lot of open field practice, I've lost my release point to comfortably navigate 300-350 ft holes in the woods. Where should the release point be, at the chest or out at full arm extension? 4.When I throw my farthest I'm tweaking the heck out of my knee, what am I doing wrong? THANKS

Paul, your release point is much more important than distance per se. Sometimes when you try to crank it up for distance you inadvertantly tighten up, change your rhythm and therefore your release point. Use quick acceleration (whip) even for short throws, and don't change it for long. For long throws, pull through the whip harder, but keep the whip quick. As for your knee, bend it slightly and make sure your foot is pivoting.

You might want to try finding a field with a FEW trees in it. Imagine that it is a fairway with imaginary trees on one side (to save plastic). Picture a basket somewhere and play it. Acceptable distance from the "basket" is determined by you putting, upshot abilities.

I have lately noticed something that has added a lot of consistant distance to my drives. As I am uncoiling my hips and shoulders, I delay the shoulder rotation until my hips are almost fully opened to the target. When I do this, it creates a much much quicker acceleration of the disc because of the increased shoulder turn. This of course translates into more speed.

I am trying ot become good at disc golf, and my disc throwing techniques were learned playing ultimate. are there others out there who started out throwing ultimate discs and can give me some tips on the transition -- especially throwing for distance?
Right now i can throw putters as far as drivers.
Why is that?
Ultimate throwing seems to have conditioned me to make throws receiver friendly. my natural inclination is to throw flat to anhyser and use a lot of snap for control. do i need to throw as fast as possible to get better distance? any advice will be appreciated.

Rob I don't remember where it started on this thread so you'll have to go back and look for the advise of Dave Dunipace. He basically gives you most of what you need to do to add distance to your game.

Rob,

are you trying to throw mainly backhand or forehand? and as a word of encouragement, most can players throw their putters about 75-80% of the consistant distance of their drivers--there really isn't as much difference as it seems like there should be.

If you can throw putters well, then I would encourage you to slowly step up using the same throwing style to some neutral midrange and then driver discs. Worry about form more than about distance right now. Most disc golfers make the mistake early on in their careers of learning incorrectly how to throw and then end up spending years unlearning bad habits. It is really important to be able to control a clean release, which is something long-time ultimate players should have learned; the trick is to transfer those skills to disc golf.

Try a neutral mid-distance disc like a Sabre, a Shark, a Comet, or a Storm. Work on getting a little more distance out of it and then work your way up to a controlled distance driver, like a 16Xg DX Teebird, or a 16Xg wildcat. These discs will reward precision and finess on your release.

Once you feel confident that your ultimate form is transferring consistantly to disc golf discs, work on distance. Dave Dunipace wrote an excellent article on backhand form for control and distance (http://discgolf.com/discreview/resources/articles/distancesecrets.shtml) that I highly recommend reading.

It also might help to find some videos on the web of professional players driving with good form--BE Careful though in looking at professional disc golfers, because most of them have some bad habits in their form that they've just learned to compensate for over the years. So read Dave Dunipace's article first, because it is a much better teacher than a video... though if you are looking for a good video example, Larry Leonard's drive here (http://www.disclife.com/dj020415a.shtml) is the best example of form I've been able to find on the web. Compare it to all the suggestions that Dave makes in his article, and you will find it virtually perfect.

If you want thoughts on how to drive forehand, LMK, and I will be happy to post up some suggestions. I'm still a current Ultimate player, so I struggle every week with how to swap between the two sports I love...

Rob, it seems to be generally accepted wisdom that you get about 10% more distance with drivers than putters or midrange discs, so being able to throw your putter as far as your drivers isn't unusual (assuming you're getting reasonable distance with your putter /clipart/wink.gif).

The "ideal" flight path for distance is a helix (reverse s), where the disc starts out anhyzer and flattens out as it slows down, nyzering off at the end. In effect, as the disc runs out of steam, it ends up falling forward, rather than off to the left (throwing RHBH).

A few of tips I've picked up from some of the monster arms in the area that have helped me stretch out my distance (disclaimer: YMMV):

First, think "smooth," not "hard." The key to distance is a smooth, flowing motion rather than brute force. (Yeah, muscles help, but not as much as solid technique.) Most beginners try to get more distance by throwing harder, meaning they grip the disc tighther, speed up their approach (run-up), and try to put more muscle into the throw. Usually, that results in a short, choppy throwing motion, which robs them of power, and consequently, distance.

One of the things that surprised me when I first watched Brian Schweberger throw is how effortless everything looks. Even when he's throwing distance, it doesn't look like he's throwing hard! But if you watch closely, you see that there's no sudden movement or jerkiness in
his throwing motion: just "smooth" from start to follow through. (BTW, there's a video clip of Brian throwing here (http://disclife.com/dj020415a.shtml). The Larry Leonard and Todd Branch clips also illustrate the "smooth, not hard" philosophy.)

Second, "whip with the hip." Dave Dunipace of Innova gave me this tip/mantra. Basically, your hips should rotate to their fully opened position
when you transfer your weight from your drive leg to your plant foot. I've discovered that not opening up fully costs me 30-50' and results in loss of control becasue I can't follow through completely.

Third, try taking a longer final step. (DISCLAIMER: This technique generally isn't recommended unless you have good knees, strong quads, and very good flexibility, since it really stresses your knees, hips, lower back, and quads.) I'm 5'6", and my final step is just under 5'. One of the results is that my disc comes out much lower and flatter than if I take a normal step (it doesn't get much higher than 12-15'), but I end up throwing 350-400' line drives with little to no fade at the end, rather than fly balls.

Finally, throw five putts for every drive you throw on the practice field. In the average round, you're going to throw more putts than drives. What good is throwing a 400' drive if you end up missing the 30' birdie putt?

Go back abd find everything that Dave Dunipace has said! I have been listening to him for over 20 years, if he can't help you no one can!!!!

Get Scott Stokely's instructional video. He has lots of good ideas.

I'm also looking forward to getting Juliana Korver's video. She mentioned it at Juliana's Disc Golf Stuff.

Then video yourself and compare your form.

Thanks everyone for the advice -- this is a great forum. my best throw has always been RHBH. in Ultimate, because i was throwing through a marker (someone standing in front of you trying to get in the way of your throw), i have a tendency to keep the disc far from my chest and pull the disc forward in an arc out and around motion. i may be keeping my elbow too high -- what heighth do you usually release a drive at? i tend to **** my wrist a lot and air bounce everything because that way in ultimate i used english to make those
throws hover and be receiver friendly.
i have done a little reading of past threads and picked up enough to confuse me until i get my arse outside and practice. (snow and age is turning me disconcertingly wimpy -- hopefull it's just a phase :-) i think i am keeping my shoulders too closed on release due to being used to someone standing next to me trying to keep me from getting off a good throw (ultimate).
the nose too may be a problem -- i tend to keep it up.
right now i can barely throw a golf disc further than an ultimate disc (350 ft.) my Aviar putter goes as far as my drivers. Pulling (kicking off) in ultimate though taught me to throw far and then have the disc stall and get hang time since pulls that go out the back of the endzone usually get the equivalent of a touchback.
i think my mechanics try to utilize domey shaped properties that are not present on drivers. i will practice really whizzing them since in Ultimate i avoided that (too fast to catch).
Thanks again for the pointers and any further suggestions will be great.
i'm starting to think that increasing the number of discs in my bag isn't half as important as more practice. oh, and it's not like my putting isn't sad either :-) but driving is sooo much more fun...

Rob, if you are getting 350 feet out of your putters, what you may want to try is to not worry about drivers for now and just try a slightly faster, slightly domier disc with a lot of float and carry... I recommend a CE-Aero, or a QMS. Either of those has a sick amount of float, and is slightly faster than a putter--just enough that you might be able to sail it out to about 400 feet using the throw you have now, and 400 feet of ACCURATE distance is enough for you to play competitively with any of the big dogs.

just remember that it doesn't matter how cool or how fast a disc looks getting there. it matters where it lands.

well, throwing a putter far, and throwing a driver far are 2 different things. when I want to throw a putter far, I put the nose up and throw it fairly high because it floats down. you can't do that with a driver. drivers fly more like darts. For me, I had to unlearn my ultimate throw when I started playing golf. Keep working on the drivers. Throw them lower with the nose down.

I can throw a putter 350' but that doesn't mean that I can throw my putter on any hole less than 350'. You have to know drivers too. If you play a low ceiling or skip shot, a putter won't go 200'.

When I played ultimate, i used to play disc golf recreationally once in a while and i had a Discraft Skystreak 175g that was my everything disc. I've tried to find one but of course they disappeared with the dinosaur. Would you say Skystreaks's had lots of float? Is an Aero like that? How about a Stratus?
Thanks Kid for the driver / dart advice. I could stick with putters but i'd really like to learn to throw drivers. i get a little sick when i see guys who can throw golf discs 500 feet because i used to think my RHBH was pretty [*****] good.

Kid, you mentioned throwing a driver is different than throwing a putter for distance and is like throwing a dart -- would it be like the difference between throwing a line drive and a long fly ball when throwing a baseball? is keeping a driver low and fast the key?
how about ultimate skills and putting? do you airbounce/anhyser your putts or do you hyzer them (which would be an "inside-out" throw in ultimate)?

For me the big difference between throwing an ultimate disc and throwing a disc golf driver is what I do with my wrist at the release point. When throwing ultimate discs and Aeros, I have to concentrate on putting some snap and rotations into the disc to get it to go any distance.

Disc golf driver distance is completely the opposite. All the people who talk about technique (Dave Dunipace, Scott Stokely, etc.) suggest trying to hold your wrist stiff when throwing. By doing this, as you pull the disc through near your body about chest high, the tendons in your fingers and wrist will feel the tension of the discs inertia resisting the forward movement. At the release point, the energy stored in these tendons spring loads the disc off your fingers.

There really seem to be two schools of disc golf driving: the hideous arm speed, overstable hyzer that gets 400ft in a couple seconds ; and the smooth controlled gliding flight that takes 2 or 3 times as long to get down the fairway.

It may help if you tell us what disc you're using to drive with. A Discraft Storm should certainly help your distance, for pure drivers I'd stick with J/QLS, Leopards/Gazelles or other neutrally stable discs.

Most schools of thought on putting involve an easily repeated motion. For some people this is a quick release hyzer putt, for some it's a high dependence on weight shift toward the basket and a level release. Most people feel an anhyzer has a greater chance of flying farther past the basket on misses.

Thanks for the comments Nick. Right now i have a KC Pro Cheetah, CE Valkryie (175g), CE Leopard, JK Pro Valkryie, XL, XS, Xpress, Reaper, TeeBird, Comet, Stingray, Panther, HD Hawk, Aviar Putter, X Puttr, Beast, etc. (some of which i've won)
I have thought about a Stratus, a Cobra, and a Storm. I guess I'll get a Storm. How about Classic Cobras?
as for anhyzer putting -- my tendency is to let it float up and die (drop) at the basket so if i miss it is close. it is more of a slight anhyzer with a lot of air bounce. i notice though that hyzer's are popular and since there is no defender to worry about -- i may need to re-think my putting and throwing techniques.

Yes Rob, throwing a driver is more of a line drive shot. The drivers are faster and have more lift so you can throw them 400' or more without them going much higher than the top of your head. If I throw a putter the same way, they will drop pretty fast.

A lot of the advice I have seen on this board is really good but some of it seems to be a little too complicated. I try to keep it simple because most beginners don't understand all we do about disc physics.

DISCLAIMER: this is how I throw, there are multiple ways of doing just about anything and disc golf is no different. This may not be the best way, but it IS the best way for me.

This is the way that I throw for distance:

I use the power grip. The fan grip and pinch grip work fine too. Just make sure that all 4 fingers are under the disc. Put your thumb near the rim of the disc (not too close, because you can't grip as tightly). Grip the disc very tightly. I have found that the tighter I grip the disc, the more spin I can generate at the point of release. More spin = more lift. Make sure that you are doing the X-step. When you are on the next to last step, turn your back from the target and reach back as far as possible. The farther back you reach, the more time you give the disc to accelerate.

Then, you will pull through as fast as possible. This is quite different than an ultimate throw. Try pulling the disc in a straight line from the farthest point in your backswing to the release point. I try to imagine that I am pull starting a lawnmower. You want to keep the disc as close to your chest as possible. Sometimes, I will even hit my chest with the disc when I am trying too hard. I don't think about snapping my wrist. I find that if I pull in a straight line and keep the disc close to my chest, my elbow and wrist take care of themselves. When I am totally reaching back, my arm is completly extended and straight. Pulling through, when the disc is in line with my chest, my wrist is still straight but my elbow is bent (about 90 degree angle). When the disc begins to go past my body, my wrist starts to bend and my elbow starts to extend back straight. When the disc is as far forward as possible, my elbow is completely straight and my wrist is completely bent. At that point, I allow my wrist to straighten and that is the point that the disc rips itself out of my hand.

Experiment with using your shoulders, back and hips to add more power. Your arm is more of a whip that reacts to the power from your body rotating. This pull-back and rotation is a good thing to practice without a disc. You can do it anywhere.

At the point of release, don't let go of the disc. The disc should be moving so fast that it rips itself out of your hand. When a good distance thrower throws, you can hear a snap when he releases. That is your hand squeezing together after the disc rips out.

Keep your hand, arm and body moving through the release and keep rotating. Let your arm finish in a downward motion (helps to keep the nose of the disc down) and take a step or 2 off the tee. A good checklist for followthrough is: your hand moves in a downward motion, your shoulders, back, and hips keep rotating and your body keeps moving forward.

I hope that wasn't too complicated. I tried to break down every part of my swing. I basically used the stuff I learned from a couple people and Scott Stokely's video. I give that the highest recommendation. He can actually show you all the stuff I just said.

With putting, I try to push the disc towards the basket with little spin. The disc even wobbles in the air sometimes. I have found that the less spin the disc has when it hits the chains, the better chance it has of staying in the basket.

I try to imagine a straight line from my naval to the basket. No hyzer or anhyzer (unless there is an object in the way). Keep your eyes concentrated on the center of the basket (many baskets have orange or red tape on the pole). When I let go of the putt, I reach my hand at the basket like I am trying to grab onto it. That keeps my putt online about every time.

The height of your putt is pretty much all feel. You have to practice a lot of know how hard to throw it for the needed distance.

Go to www.kenclimo.com (http://www.kenclimo.com)

He has a lot of tips. I like what he says about putting.

Rob, are you USING all the discs you listed or is it just a list of discs you own? I suggest you pick a few models and stick with them, rather than throwing so many different discs. See this article (http://www.radl.biz/article_disc_select.htm) by Carlton Howard for the rationale.

Thanks Kid Roc -- that helps a lot. I'd heard and read advice before about keeping it close to my chest and about letting the disc rip itself out but it sounded so foreign to the way i throw that i haven't given it enough tries. Now i have something to play with. thinking through what you are telling me shows me that i am using only the last part of my arm motion to generate speed and strength when i could use all of it. Nose down is a bit foreign too, but i will also work on that.
as for putting, i notice a lot of people putt very low into the basket and maybe they keep the nose down too. reading the Howard articles on putting (see link from felix) gives me a lot to work on for putting too. reducing movements that add more variables in which things can throw my putt off makes sense. right now i kind of let a lot of spin hit the left center of the chains and then slight anhyzer spins right into them. but now i am considering working on letting the disc die at the end of its flight into the chains.
and thanks for the link felix -- it makes a lot of sense and is something i needed to hear.
it's amazing how many ways there are to improve, and encouraging too.
One last question -- how would you contrast a Cobra to a Storm?

storm has a lot more float than a cobra, and is capable of greater distances with much less effort. A cobra is a great straight-midrange if you put a little power into it, but I think there are better midrange discs around. a storm has enough float that it works well as a very straight driver, but as a warning, the ones I've thrown seemed to warp faster than a lot of other discs after a few trees... it has been a while since I tried one, though, so anyone who has thrown a more recent storm might can comment on the longevity of the current plastic.

My girlfriend has been learning to DG and she currently has two Storms in her bag. She swears by them for their straight line predictability. I would add to Tim's post above by saying that the Storm is also faster than a Cobra. As far as durability goes, my girlfriend seems to whack them into everything that will stand still, but claims they go muy straight. Go figure.

The storm is a great disc that will fly straight and has good carry(better than cobra). It does get understable pretty fast when you whack things(faster than cobra)IMO. There is a fine line with disc like the stingray, wolf, stratus, etc. When new they will fly straight, if you don't over throw them. The same characteristics(not being stable) that make them fly straight with out falling hard left put them on the verge of being understable(turning over). If you learn to throw with these disc your game will be alot better down the road, because it teaches you good technique. Remember the above disc don't fly good into a head wind, but do with a tailwind. Good luck!

With good techniqe a Storm can fly as far as most drivers.I consider it a driver, not a midrange. Thrown flat it will turn right, but thrown with a small amout of hyser it will flip up and fly straight and fade very little at the end. Best disc for long straight shots.

I personally wouldn't coach players to use the straight reach back method. It takes more effort to get the same distance you can get with bent arm. I was giving a new player some driving tips while playing a casual round last week (Me giving a beginner advice, never thought that would happen). Anyway, he had a frisbee background, and had always thrown bent arm. Since he had started, he had always been taught by locals to use the straight reach back. I gave him a few tips on bent arm. Don't hold the disc farther back than your left shoulder(RHBH), delay shoulder rotation until hips are fully open, and try to maintain a flat plane of release. He liked those suggestions because he really wasn't changing much from frisbee form. I told him that it is much easier to generate disc speed that way. If you want to test this, grab a 5-10 pound dumbell. Go through a driving motion using both reach back, and bent arm. You will find that it is ridiculously easier to accelerate the weight when using bent arm. It is counter productive to reach back. Test it for yourself. I believe that after trying it, there should be no doubt in your mind that bent arm allows for much easier acceleration, hence more speed, and more distance than reach back.

Play a Fly 18 course and your distance will improve.A great place to use your drivers over and over again!!!No luck here/msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif/msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

no skill either

"no skill" ?

no skill?

Playing a fly 18 course doesn't improve your distance. Thats idiotic.
Throwing in an open field is the only place you're going to learn distance.
Reese stick to unsanctioned disc golf events at your courses rather than trying to give advise on throwing techniques.

The bent elbow is a good technique, I guess. I don't throw that way and I never could. I reach as far back as I can and I can throw 450'. I am sure it works well for some people but you can't say it is definetly the best way.

One thing i think i have been doing trying to get the distance missing from my shots is overthrowing. the advice here has given me a lot to practice with (including putting and midrange shots and disc selection instead of just driving) i will work on not cocking my wrist so much, keeping the nose down and throwing lower / line drive type shots when driving. One last question -- i seem to have started messing up my elbow -- hyperextending it -- by trying to throw harder instead of smarter. what tricks / techniques can i concentrate on in order *not* to hyperextend / injure my elbow?

fly 18 will improve your long distance rollers baby!!! yeah on that green carpet... man there is a lot of hostility on the board towards Reese, I really don't know him or what he has done to yall but it seems like a lot of people take this stuff pretty personal, look, its all cool, tight wooded coureses, long ball golf courses, i enjoy them both, don't be hater! i think one interesting point that I never forgot, Brian Sullivan told me several years ago, "people like to see the toy fly far."

I am sure it works well for some people but you can't say it is definetly the best way.

It is by far the most efficent way. And if you get more efficency, you can then generate more power. Dave said somewhere back in the thread that it is the most efficent.

About the elbow, that could be a result of not following through enough.

Did I just spell "efficient" that wrong? I realized after the post.

David,
Peoples hostilities towards Reese are not based so much on their dislike of the concept as it is his obnoxious posts and constant self promotion. Go back and read many of his posts. It's like a broken record. "The PDGA [*****], my way is the future of disc golf, we have carts and beer". Reese is noe of those pitiful people who trys to build up himself by attacking and tearing down everyone else. Kind of like negative campaign ads in politics.
I personally like the concept of Fly 18 but am so turned off by Reese's obnoxious behavior that I could never support him or one of his events. I suspect that a lot of people feel the same way.

Sorry you feel that way David your loss and mine..And as far as the PDGA I have supported them for years at every worlds for 3 years with my pads and more..I want to see more from the pdga as a coustomer I do not agree with all that they do for our sport.I am not the end all for disc golf but I am one of the most important directions towards sponsorship,spectators,and tv .My approach may be crass I appologize.I hope you will reconsider I will be it TEXAS this year with at least one course.Fly 18 is not for everyone.Dont judge a book by its cover.I love this sport we are all in this together lets make it work./msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif/msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

My elbow never used to hurt from throwing a disc -- i think i may be trying to get too much on the throw instead of being smooth and effortless.
What is the proper follow through in terms of the elbow? when you release the disc is your arm completely extended or is the elbow still slightly bent?
Someone said something about either finishing with palm up or palm down, but i have read so much stuff lately i can't remember where that was.

Okay i just found the answer under the tennis elbow thread, and see the advice is to finish with palm up (not vertical) and to turn after release 180 degrees to follow through.

sorry to ask questions already answered.
now if i could just figure out how to get my discs to be chain hungry ... oh the answer to that is here too -- practice.
Anyone know any tricks to make a good poor man's basket to practice putting?

Jed, if the bent elbow is the best way to throw distance then why have all the distance record holders thown with a full reach back? Bent elbow is great, for some people. Full reach back is great, for other people. Forehand is great, for other other people. It's all a matter of preference, dude.

Pitch putting is great. I have been sinking almost everything now that I switched. I use a 175g Soft Magnet. It works great.

Dan &amp; Kid Roc, When you reach way back, you still pull thru in a straight line, right? When the disc is passing your chest its close to your chest, right? Then you are finishing with a bent elbow, right? I throw with the reach back, too. It helps me get in rythum for a hard pull thru, but aren't you still finishing with a bent elbow technique?/msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

> if the bent elbow is the best way to throw distance then why have all the distance record holders thown with a full reach back?

Dan, the fact that they use a full reach back proves nothing in and of itself. It would be meaningful if it could be shown that they throw farther using a full reach back than with a bent elbow. But even that would only be meaningful if they first mastered the bent elbow technique.

Also, "best" does not necessarily mean "longest." As Dave Dunipace explained very early in the life of this thread, the bent elbow technique is the *most efficient* way to throw since, at some point, using a full reach back, you are going to have to bring the disc into the bent-elbow position anyway.

Having said that, I agree that the technique one uses is largely a matter of personal preference. Do what works for you.

Reese, Your last post actually sounded like it came from a sane individual with good ideas and intentions for the betterment of the sport. I suspect this approach will win you over more support than your previous negative tactics. I hope for your benefit and the future of Fly 18 you can keep it up.

Dan, it's not true that all the distance record holders used straight reachback. Most all used a turn around which is a different type shot all together and some used a partially bent elbow. I used a completely bent elbow without a turnaround when I broke the world record myself. I was also the coach of two of the world record holders (Van Miller and Sam Ferrans) when they broke the record. Just for the record. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

>>>Dave said somewhere back in the thread that it is the most efficent.

No offense to Dave but I don't think he is the God of disc golf. I am sure he knows more about it than I do but I have to play my game.

When I originally described my method of distance throwing, I said that it may not be the best way for everyone, but it IS the best way for me. I can throw 450' all day long and never get tired. I don't really care what makes more sense in theory. All I know is that it works very well and there is no way I am going to change because something else sounds good in theory.

Bill, yes I do pull straight through and my elbow bends when the disc passes my chest. I don't know if this classifies as the bent elbow technique or not. I don't know much about it.

Kid Roc, what works well for you and what is most efficient are two different things. To say one technique is more efficient than another is a descriptive statement rather than a prescriptive one, i.e., it is an empirical statement about the biometrics, kinesiology, and mechanics of the techniques, not a statement about which technique a person should use.

> but it IS the best way for me.

How do you know this? Have you spent time working on the bent elbow technique to know that it doesn't work as well or better than the straight reach back, or are you simply not interested at this point in trying something new?

> All I know is that it works very well and there is no way I am going to change because something else sounds good in theory.

No offense, but that attitude's ridiculous. When a new ultra-long distance driver comes out, do you not try it because it sounds good in theory but your current ultra driver works very well?

You say you can throw 450' with your current technique and you seem to be satisfied with that for now. Great. Keep doing it. But don't be afraid to experiment with different techniques and don't prematurely foreclose switching to a different technique such as the turnaround (360) or bent elbow on down the road when you're gunning for 550'. You may (note: "may") find one of them works better for you, or you may not; or you may discover that one works better, but decide, for various reasons, not to use it. (I can throw about 50' further using the turnaround than with the bent elbow, but I don't use the turnaround on the course because the accuracy is not there, and, owing to the nature of most courses in this area (tight, narrow fairways through the woods) accuracy is more important to me than distance.)

Hmmm.. are you sure about being able to throw 450', Danny? It looked more like 400' this weekend in Arlington, and most of those were downhill with a tailwind.

I'm sure you were just having a bad day /clipart/proud.gif

That 400'er downwind with a tailwind was with my Wizard.

Ryan, how did you do yesterday. We blew up the second round. Nothing seemed to go right. I am not a wind putter. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

Felix, the reason I am not rushing out to try all the other distance techniques is that distance is the strong point of my game. My accuracy needs work and my putting is very inconsistent. I just think that I need to forget about trying to throw farther right now and get my weaknesses better.

Another reason for not trying the turnaround and bent elbow is that I don't know anyone around here that throws 500' using that method. I am sure they are out there, but without someone to teach me how to do it the right way, I won't be able to do it correctly. I can't just pick it up from reading how to do it. If someone saw me throw and said that I could throw farther by doing this, then showed it to me and helped me learn it, that would be a totally different story.

Maybe when I think my short game is great (never), I can start to go for 500'. Most of the pros around here tell me that I will get to 500' one day and it won't be from trying something new. It will be from continuing to throw the way I do and it will eventually come. I believe what they say becuase they have seen me throw and they throw with the full reach back.

I don't want to come off like I know everything about it but I am trying to improve on parts of my game that will shave strokes off my score.

Experimenting with new distance methods is not something that is going to make me a better player on the golf course.

So, maybe I shouldn't have said that the full reach back is the best method for me. It does work very well for me and maybe one day I will try something else.

Thanks for your advice. Maybe I will video myself and send it to you so you can see how I throw. Bill wrote something earlier about that if I pull the disc straight across my chest, my elbow does bend (which it does) and that is part of the bent elbow technique. I am not sure if that is right or not.

I think we finished second, but I'm not sure... I had to bug out early and come into the office for a few hours last night, so we didn't stick around to find out.

Yeah, that wind was sure fun, wasn't it? I don't mind putting into a headwind, but I can't stand putting with that strong of a tailwind. I think I've been burned too many times throwing it hard enough to get it there, and then the wind suddenly dies and my putt sails 40' past... makes me too nervous. /clipart/smile.gif

I assume you saw Nolan crushing his putters like 450' from the pavilion down past 17's basket, didn't you? That was amazing to see.

More efficient should translate into more distance. That means you can put less effort into a throw and get the same distance. If you then bump the effort up to the original level, you should be throwing farther.

When throwing objects at a relatively light weight of 165-180g, you can't really notice the ease as much. I really suggest you try my experiment of going through the 2 different driving motions with a 5 lb dumbell. The heavier the weight, the more pronounced the efficiency difference will be noticed.

I never said you had to change your driving motion from reach back to bent elbow. The point I am trying to make is that new players should be taught the bent elbow from the very beginning. Why teach them a driving method that will be handicapping them from the start? All that does it create more players like Kid Roc who get set in their current ways and don't want to change what is working for them (note, that was not an insult or an insinuation). I understand the "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" viewpoint you have. But if we as a group of experienced players teach the more efficient method from the start, it can only help the new players improve faster.

Nolan is a freak. He and Clayton sure are fun to watch throw.

Kid Roc, I understand your reasoning, and I agree that working on accuracy will improve your game a lot more than added distance (which is true regardless of what driving technique or grip one uses), because there are only a handful of throws in any given round where an exgtra 30-50' may save you a stroke, whereas accuracy matters on every throw, regardless of how long or how short the throw is.

FYI, check out the video clip of Larry Leonard on Disclife.com for a textbook example of the bent elbow technique. Then check the video of Todd Branch. Todd uses the straight reach back, but if you step through the video frame by frame. On the 24th frame, you'll see that his arm is in the bent-elbow position. Essentially, the difference between the straight reach back and the bent elbow is that with the bent elbow technique you start with the elbow bent, while with the straight reach back, your arm moves through the bent elbow position in the process of making a throw.

Thanks for the info. My style is much like Mike Young's video on that site. That is very interesting. I have seen those clips before but I have never noticed that Larry threw like that.

Dave, could you chime in on this discussion and tell us you opinions about the bent elbow technique? I read that you use it. Do you think that it is a preference issue or do you think that anyone can throw farther with this method (even Cam Todd and Barry Schultz)?

Dave, thanks for the clarification. I was thinking of Stokely and Voigt when I wrote that and didn't know about the others. For the record, I vary between the 2, with bent elbow giving me more accuracy but the straight pull seems to get me more D when there is room for error. For whatever reason (poor mechanics I'm sure) I find my legs get more involved when I reach further back. I have a pretty weak arm (for disc golf anyway) so I might not be the one whose advice should be taken on this subject, however. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

BTW, for others like me ( /- 300 feet or so), the Archangel is a disc worth looking into.

Kid Roc, it's kinda hard to switch styles once you have groved one, but the main difference is the compactness of the bent elbow start. Both throws are identical from the middle through the finish. The start of the bent elbow is shorter and quicker and takes less athleticism to achieve similar results. What most people don't understand when they reach back and get better results than their usual poor form, is that they are throwing from a better starting position with their shoulders hips and elbow. All of this is good. The only thing that is not necessary is to have your arm straight when you reach back. You really only need to reach back with your elbow exactly as you do with the straight reachback except you leave the disc (with elbow bent) close to your body so that you don't have to spend time and energy dragging it back there anyway with the straight reach back. Most of the players that I coach don't use my technique and I don't try to get them to change unless I know they can benefit significantly. If you have already developed good power and accuracy with the reachback, stay with it and work on putting. If you are not satisfied with your current driving, it is definitly a good option, but not the only one.

Well said. I wasn't advocating technique change when there are already good results. I was advocating teaching it to anybody that wants more distance, or is just learning to throw golf discs.

new member,
seeing if it works

i've been reading this thread for about a week. and i use the straight pull back and it works awesome. i'm now trying the bent elbow but i don't think i'm doing it right. anybody have helpful hints?

The following link is to an article that is a compilation of the posts by Dave Dunipace in this thread. It might help you to understand it.

http://www.discgolf.com/discreview/resources/articles/distancesecrets.shtml

thanks alot. it really helped me in finding how i could improve my distance.

I would also like to mention, to make it easier on others maybe someone should put a video or maybe even some step-by-step pictures on a website or video. just a thought. by the way thank you to everyone who helped in getting this information to others.

If you browse around the website I gave you, you will find videos of people driving. I belive one or two use the bent arm method you read about.

you are very welcome brady, and also, i'd like to thank my sponsor.

For years I played with an undefined, beginners style. Last spring I started working on the straight pull back. Besides improving distance and accuracy, it greatly improved my endurance on the course.

I bet the bent elbow could do the same, improve endurance.

Does it take an understanding of the straight arm techniuque to understand and execute the bent elbow? Hmmm.

Bent elbow can be simplified to say it is a straight reach back technique without the reach back. Use the same mechanics, but only reach the disc back to your opposite arm. In addition to the ease of this method, you can also rotate your body farther around.

i think you are supposed to reach back with your elbow instead of your hand. i think.

Correct. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

I meant that. /msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif

When I first started out throwing backhands, my timing was horrible, I wasn't using my legs at all, and my distance was extremely poor.

The biggest thing that helped for me initially was to start throwing with a 360 degree spin beforehand. After working on that for a few days, I found my legs and arm knew the motion well enough to throw much better without spinning.

My latest hint is to move your feet quickly. I had gotten lazy and had been throwing with a very minimal run up. My upper body technique had gotten better, so my distance hadn't fallen off any...but it hadn't improved greatly. Every pro I've ever seen throw has a nice fluid and quick cross/X step.

I've just started a new MSN group called "Disc Golf Resources". I'm moving all the material from my old Yahoo group there. Just to update those new to this thread I've compiled all of Dave Dunipace's advice here into an article of his Distance Secrets. I have it on the MSN Group in Word and PDF. Go to http://groups.msn.com/DiscGolfResources to join. I'll also be adding many more resources as well such as my updated Bag Buyer's Guide and an all new MS Access database of detailed evaluations of over 80 disc golf courses, plus much more. So join today.

I've been trying the bent elbow technique for about a week and it has improved my distance dramatically. with the straight pull-back i was barely able to break the 400ft mark, but now with the bent arm with a little tweakage and torqueing i can reach pretty close to the 600's. thanks alot everybody.

Can someone point me towards the distance secret article? The link above does not work.

<a href="http://www.discgolfreview.com/resources/articles/distancesecrets.shtml (http://www.discgolfreview.com/resources/articles/distancesecrets.shtml)" target="_blank">http://www.discgolfreview.com/resources/articles/distancesecrets.shtml</A></a>

You can also get Dave Dunipace's article, which I edited, at my MSN Group called "Disc Golf Resources". Go to http://groups.msn.com/DiscGolfResources to join.

There are also many other resources there as well such as my updated Bag Buyer's Guide. Soon I'll have an all new MS Access database of detailed evaluations of over 100 disc golf courses.

This thread now has 996 posts!

Lowe, you should come to play the Hotlanta event this weekend!

noputtin,

I wish I could, but 2 trips to Atlanta in June was enough.

999

1000 /msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif

1000 /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif Woo Hoo!!! /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

Please let this thread be saved on the new server and the new message board!