Lowe, am I going to see you in Rock Hill next month? Let me know please?

1003......like may rating....lol

Dave,

On pg. 37 of the recent DGWN there is a picture of Dave Greenwell at the end of his reach back. It appears that his elbow is bent using the compact technique. Does he use the compact throw?

Lowe, I don't think he uses it. It looks like it, but I think this picture is right after the end of his reach back, where he is bending his elbow to power the snap as all reachback throwers do anyway.

Dave,
I guess it's the angle of where the picture was taken from that makes it look like a bent elbow. BTW, in that picture it also looks like Greenwell is holding the disc perpendicular to the ground instead of flat. His wrist appears to be turned at a great angle. Is that how you see it? If so, why would he do that?

Dave,
I guess it's the angle of where the picture was taken from that makes it look like a bent elbow. BTW, in that picture it also looks like Greenwell is holding the disc perpendicular to the ground instead of flat. His wrist appears to be turned at a great angle. Is that how you see it? If so, why would he do that?



Roller Perhaps?

I don't know why he holds it vertically, but I could guess. It is easier to hold it that way in the back swing and he could be rolling the disc over to get the nose down. It doesn't really matter what position the disc is in at that point, but it needs to get to a proper orientation when it is whipped.

dave, ive read your article and heard much talk about the bent elbow vs. straight reachback, and i was wondering if you might be able to help me out. ive been playing for a couple of months now and im still trying to figure out my form. ive done a lot of reading, and my distance and throws have definitely improved. however, i find when i drive, i havent really decided on which i am trying for, the full reachback, or bent elbow. i just sort of ending up reaching back partially, because i havent really made up my mind as to which to try. i suppose i should spend some time fully trying both and see which works better...but am i correct in saying that you are of the opinion that the bent elbow is the most efficient way, therefore has the most potential for distance? i read that none of the distance record holders used the bent elbow...just wondering.

stayouttamalibu1, a partial bent elbow is more efficient than a straight arm. I would not recommend the full bent elbow anyway. Not everyone can master the full bent elbow. As for your reading that none of the distance record holders used the bent elbow. Not true. Christian Sandstom uses a partial bent elbow, I believe. I used a complete bent elbow when I set the record. I usually only use a partial bent elbow. Ruth Steele uses the bent elbow which is very telling. Women have a disadvantage in upper body strength and quickness. They, more than men, need the efficiency. Ruth is the farthest female thrower in the world. Juliana is just as tall and stronger. Juliana uses straight reach back. They both practice a lot. I've watched both of them. Juliana can't turn her shoulders as quickly because she is dragging her arm with her turn. Ruth does not have to drag her arm. Big strong guys don't have to worry about this. They have excess strength. They have to worry more about grip and rythm than power production.

hm, thats cool to hear then that christian uses it. so now i have a couple more questions, sorry!

one, whats the difference between the partial bent elbow and full bent elbow? can you describe the 2 in detail?

and two, i was just reading your article again and i came across this that i was wondering about -

"Keep your wrist cocked down but not curled back. Your wrist should be more or less in a hand shaking position but cocked down. You also need a wrist down position to have the disc flat to avoid off axis torquing (disc flutter) and severe loss of power."


what do you mean by cocked down?

also just out of curiosity, how long was the throw that got you the distance record?

The difference between straight reach back, half bent, and full bent elbow is the starting position of the disc when you wind your shoulders and upper arm all the way back. That's it. No other difference. The straight arm reachback has to rebend the elbow as the shoulders start to turn. This takes more energy that weaker players can't afford to lose. Wrist cocked down is to get the flight plate or plane of the disc in the same plane as your arm swing so that the disc can fly level. Cocking the wrist back has to do with the whip. Cocking the wrist back is a weak wrist position to start from, so I don't advise it. My record was in 1980 and was done with a Frisbee catch type disc called a 119 or 41 mold. My throw broke John Kirkland's long standing record of 444 ft. I threw 458ft trying the bent elbow technique for the first time. I threw that far off the tee yesterday with no wind. Much easier now than then to throw far. :)

do you still turn your head back and away from the target with the bent reach back? ive always been told that to get enough rotation from your hips and shoulders to allow for enough speed, that you have to turn your head back. and why would you not suggest the full bent elbow as opposed to partial for beginners, if the difference only lies in the starting position of the disc? also, is there anywhere online that i can pictures or video of people doing the bent elbow? im interested in how the disc is positioned at the height of the reach back.

thats crazy that you did that in 1980...thats the year i was born :)

You have to wind your shoulders and upper arm they same way, so yes, you turn your head away. However, because the turn can be so much quicker, you can concentrate on pulling through the hit much easier. I wouldn't suggest the full bend because it can feel awkward at first. The half bend actually feels more natural than the straight arm. There are videos of Steve Brinster and Ruth Steele on line somewhere. Larry Leonard too. Steve does a half bend. Ruth and Larry do about a three quarters. But to answer, the disc is positioned close to the left shoulder for a rightie.

I just met Juliana for the first time at La Mirada this past summer. For some reason I asked her if she could throw 400 feet. She said she might have done it a few times but that she definitely couldn't just do it at will.
She is a super nice person, too. I was just some dork watching the pros and trying to learn and she took the time
to answer my goofy questions. She also signed my Roc and Putter.

Blarg, she is very nice and has the potential to throw 400' because she is so strong. But right now her technique is holding her back. She is the most accurate of our three Women players, but Des can throw just as far and Ruth can throw farther. Oddly enough, the are all the same height.

Dave, I'm trying to understand "pulling through the hit" and have some questions. If you had a birds-eye view and the intended line of flight was 12 o-clock, at what point does the hit begin? (if this is not a useful way to describe it, please use another)

I assume if the "hit" is when the wrist stops and the discs starts coming out, then "pulling through" must be the remaining part until the last finger releases. Is this correct?

Is the pull through done as the shoulder turns from parallel to the line of flight to perpindicular? and lastly

Is the pull through mainly an inevitable result of a strong grip or is it more of a conscious effort?

James, your description of the hit is correct. This is where the main acceleration occurs and therefore where the main power needs to be. Yes, the pull through is done with the shoulders turning out of the line of the throw. The pull through is against the acceleration that the grip allows to happen, not as a result of it. It is a balancing act between the two. The harder you can resist the disc coming out of you grip, the more acceleration you can produce, and the more you need to pull through against that acceleration. That creates the exlplosion.

dave -

ok, so i went out and played this weekend and tried the bent elbow. i didnt get a chance to just throw in the field, which i should probably do to try to get the feel for it first so im not learning it while also trying to be accurate...but anyways, i played on my local course here in santa barbara, evergreen. i was able to match my previous distance in only the first few throws. by the end of the game, i hadnt necessary outdriven my old throws, but i had fairly consistently matched them.

im still not really getting the "feel" of it though...a few of the throws ended up going too far right, like i held on too long or something. a couple of things im wondering after trying it - youve said two very important things are locking your wrist at the hit point, and also not gripping tight until then also, correct? because if you grip tight through the whole throw you arent able to be fluid, etc. so does that mean that you have to stop your wrist AND grip tight at the exact same time, that time being right at the hit point?

Ryan, yes, the wrist lock and the grip go tight at the same time. When you thought you held on too long, it might have been the real power. I have heard people saying they grip locked a drive or something like that and it is their farthest drive, just way to the right. That really is the one they did right. They just didn't set up for it properly. The feel you are looking for is light and quick up to the hit, then heavy and hard through the hit. It helps to keep your weight on the balls of your feet, and keep your feet light and quick too.

I've been voraciously studying videos for awhile now and I noticed something that seems sort of amazing. All the pros
I've seen still have their elbow bent slightly at the 'hit!!!'
I believe this technique enhances Dr. Dunipace's extremely well put description of the elements of distance throwing. The
whole forearm is locked as is the wrist, and then pulled through by the rotation of the hips and shoulders. Perhaps there is some sort of LARGE 'tendon bounce' occuring in the whole forearm as well as the wrist (the double-tendon bounce theory?). This may account for how so many of those nasty 'magic arm' people appear to do almost nothing and casually shred the air with 400' throws.
Dave's secrets have slowly been adding distance to my throws
and I'd say I've added AT LEAST 50-60' since first reading his article just a few weeks ago!
I've only been playing 'real' disc golf for 2.5 months, but I've been throwing plastic around since the '50's. Throwing about 225-250 standing still, but I seem to get a little longer every time out. Now I gotta work on the footwork.
Thanks Dave, for your miraculous forthcomingness (is that a word?) and for helping us all.

Dave, on an open field practicing, I experience the grip lock/longest-throw-to-the-right phenomenon on about 10% of throws. However, upon trying to duplicate those throws, I never succeed. You state that these throws are the ones that are done right, but the setup was improper. Could you expound on what might be wrong about the setup? Are you talking about plant foot placement, or timing, or what?

James, it is a combination of things. The main things are having a point in space from which you pull the disc through the hit, and second, having your lead foot, hips, and shoulder in the right position to pull at maximum power at that point. If the grip lock shot to the right is going farther, than the straight one, that's where the most power was aimed.

Assuming that the 'hit' is the disc ripping from one's grip/grasp/fingertips, then all other factors would have led up to the 'hit' and already happened...meaning that the hips, torso, shoulder, elbow, wrist would have already played their role in the acceleration process. The snap of the elbow extension would occur a nanosecond prior to the 'hit'... Dave?
In Carlton Howard's ongoing technique articles in DGWN, he states the 'hit' as "snapping the 'disc', not the wrist."

ok, well ill try and concentrate on my setup prior to the hit. another question, about grip, is the audible pop that is said to be heard from good throws the sound of your thumb and index finger snapping together as the disc rips out, because this is the last point to leave the disc? or is it the sound of the other fingers snapping into the base of the palm? i still cant seem to get the grip feeling right. ive been using the modified power grip up until now, with the middle finger extended towards the center of the disc, and i tried going back to the standard power grip when i started the bent elbow, but it felt so weird to me, so i switched back. dave, what would you say about these 2 grips compared to each other? also, are your fingernails supposed to be touching the underside of the flight plate? im trying to make sure all of my fingers are exactly where theyre supposed to be.

Ryan, the popping sound is usually finger pads against the base of the thumb. This is where the strength of the power grip is; between the finger pads and the base of the thumb. The pad of the thumb is most useful for feeling the position of the flight plate or helping to push and keep the nose down. It could be the sound of your ring finger, but I don't believe that is good for a power grip. The index finger is usually the power finger for the power grip, and is the last and most powerful rip point. As for what grip is right: there is no right answer. You need to experiment keeping in mind your own hand and finger strength. Try a grip and forcefully pry the disc out as if it is ripping out during a throw. Find out how the grip actually works. Find out where and how you need to apply pressure in order to get a powerful rip as the disc is leaving your grip. Find out how to enhance the strength of your grip. Focus on this with every throw and make sure the disc is ripping out the same powerful way each time. It's not automatic. It may become automatic after thousands of throws, but you need to practice and perfect it first.

You can also find a list of driving videos that you can download online in Appendix 2 of the article "Dave Dunipace Distance Secrets" which is a compilation of Dave's advice throughout this thread. And that article can be found at the MSN Group "Disc Golf Resources" at http://groups.msn.com/DiscGolfResources. Coincidentally, I manage the group.

lowe - thanks, i actually joined your group a few days ago, and ive read that distance article, or the compilation of posts, many times.

dave - ok, now when the fingers pop against the base of the thumb, are all four fingers popping? when i just practice the towel snap motion with my hand with no disc, like you suggested in that article, its mainly my middle and ring finger that pops and snaps against my thumb base.

i also asked about finger nails, are they supposed to be touching the flight plate?

and if the power comes from the base of the thumb, how come ive read a lot that you need to grip hardest between the thumb and index finger? if the pop comes from the fingers hitting the base of the thumb, yet the index finger is the last point to leave, then theoretically would the pop be happening slightly before the disc is fully released from the index finger, considering that the other fingers would have already left the disc?

ryan, it depends on the amount of squeeze you put into each finger, and the exact angle you have your disc in your palm. If you curl you fingers into the rim, you will tend to get less pop than if your pads are straight along the rim. That being said, finger popping is not important, not necessary, but not a bad thing either. If you curl you fingers, your nails will touch the flight plate and be more or less parallel. If your fingers are flat on the rim, only the very tip of your nails might touch, and your nails will be generally perpendicular to the flight plate. In the power grip, the power comes from the fingers pulling the rim wall and pushing the nose of the disc into the base on the thumb. The squeeeze is between the finger pads and the base of the thumb. Most likely, if there is any pop at all, on a good throw, it would come from the middle or index, or both. If it comes from the third, there is probably a problem.

i see...ok, so referring to the power coming from your fingers pulling the rim wall, i guess it would seem natural for to you be able to get a better pull with your fingers flat on the rim and not curled, right?

is there anything about having your fingers curled and the result having your nails touch the flight plate that would normally hinder the throw? ive been doing it this way all along...in pictures ive seen of grips, it seems like the fingers are usually curled.

Most people have their fingers curled. I am one of the few that has flat fingers. I think that the curled fingers might actually be stronger, but for me, it bothers the tips of my fingernails and tips of my fingers.

I personally use flat fingers and I always get a good snap. I'm not a long thrower though (330-360' ave). I can't control the disc as well with the power grip but I do use all four fingers. Instead of having them on the flight plate I have them all just over the ridge, nearly touching the plate. From what I understand it's considered a modified power grip simply because all four fingers are involved. I might be wrong.

so grip hard and lock wrist at the same time just before the hit. so let me get this straight one more time, when you grip hard, the hardest focus of the grip is basically whatever point on my personal grip that puts up the most fight to rip out of my hand, because harnessing that is what results in the serious explosion? but for the most part, the focus and the tightest squeeze should be between the finger pads and the base of the thumb?

Ok dude, I'm not the expert here, but try this exercise for getting the feel of the snap: Take a midrange disc, and start by holding it back by your left nipple (assuming you're a righty). Draw the disc across your chest in a straight line. You'll notice that when you get past your right nipple, your wrist has to bend back in order to continue the line. Once the disc passes your elbow, your wrist will have to flip forward again. Do this until the motion feels smooth. Then throw for real, keeping the same motion. Right around the point where your wrist bends, the disc should pivot itself forward, ripping loose from all but your index finger and thumb. Squeeze hard with those two fingers. The disc should pop out of them, resulting in an audible snap, and a flight that seems too long for the speed the disc is traveling.

This exercise is a means to an end, not a good throwing motion in itself. It's just meant to help you get a feel for the release, after which you can incorporate footwork, body movement, etc. This method worked for me, but if there's anything glaringly wrong with it, I'd like to hear from the experts!

It would be great if somebody could shoot a powerful drive from underneath the disc as it is released. I've never seen a shot or video taken from this angle. A bit tricky to shoot, of course, as the photographer would have to lie down near the end of the tee and shoot up and hope not to get stepped on, but I think it's easily possible. The only helpful way to shoot it would be in super slow motion, so you could see the disc ripping off the fingers and maybe even the tendon bounce.
I've seen many videos of throws, yet none focus on the 'hit.'
There's a great proof of how fast the hit occurs on the 2000 world tournament video (2001? Climo won and so did Juliana. Final four included Dr. Rick and some Swedish kid who kissed his disc before every throw). They show some drives in ultra slow motion and I played the drives on my vcr one frame at a time to further slow it down.
Even at one frame at a time YOU CANNOT SEE THE 'HIT!'
This, on a film shot at at least 100 fps (probably higher). This is where I noticed that the elbow is slightly bent as the disc is released. It's astounding how fast it all happens. Super slo-mo, one frame advance at a time and in one frame the arm starts forward (from the elbow into the snap) and in the next frame the hand is a blur, the disc is a smear of color moving away from the hand, the elbow is almost, but not quite fully extended, and in the next frame, the disc is already at least ten feet out and rising and the arm is well on it's way to 180 degrees off line.

Boru has is about right I think. To me it feels just like if you try to snap a towel. My grip allows me to get the loud snap. However, you only get the snap if you get the wrist snap at the end (again try to imagine snapping a towel). I grip the disc with what some might call a week grip. I grip it tight but I'm refering to the position of my fingers and thumb. I have all four finger tip pads on the ridge under the disc so that the ridge is midway down the pads so my finger tips bend over the ridge a little. The power grip puts the finger pads on the vertical wall under the disc. Anyway, my grip lets me grip the disc hard and the momentum of the disc will rip the disc out well at the hit.

A local pro said that one has to 'pinch the disc'...and by that he showed me that he was pinching the disc between his thumb-pad on the top flight-plate 'and' the last crease on his index finger underneath the rim. From there you wrap your fingers into a comfortable grasp/grip...recommending that all four fingers be used underneath.
I had heard of pinching the disc before...but had imagined that this was occurring b/tw the thumb 'and' a finger tip...through the flight-plate. But when he demonstrated that it was the height of the vertical rim that was being pinched...I saw the light!
Hope this makes sense...

Circle 2,
That sounds exactly right. This is what it feels like I do. My fingers just aren't curled over onto the vertical wall under the ridge but rather I use my finger tip pads on the ridge. I never thought of describing the grip that way.

circle 2, your local pro was describing one variation of many different ways to do a power grip. The way he described requires a more powerful thumb, but will work very well if that requirement is met. I use the power pinch for up shots. I cannot generate enough grip using my thumb pad, so I use a fist grip, which has IMO, the most power and least touch. Some people have won the distance title with a straight pinch. They have amazingly strong thumbs. The pinch grip has the most touch with the least potential power, but some guys with gorrila hands can use it well. The point is, there are many ways to do it, with advantages and disadvantages.

alright, the other day i shot my best score so far on my local course with a 4 under, which included some of my best and longest drives so far. im getting the feel for the shots a lot more now too. i still havent hit over 300' though...oh well. ive only been playing for 2.5 months. the weirdest thing i noticed was that the best shots seemed to happen when i didnt sit there and try to focus on every part of the shot. like i normally stand on the tee and make sure my wrist is cocked down to keep the nose down, and is at the correct angle for the release i want, and make sure my elbow is at the right height, etc....and really focus on it, but a couple of the best ones i threw happened when i just stepped up and didnt really think about it, just threw it.

Ryan, eventually you will hopefully get to a point where it is all feel and no think. It helps to focus on the disc and rip point and the feeling of the power and direction of the disc ripping out of your grip.

reminds me of that Tiger Woods commercial:


Don't think, just step up and hit the ball. Well, step up, keep your head down, and hit the ball. Well, step up, take a comfortable stance with your feet about shoulder width apart, keep your head down, have a loose grip, make sure your shoulders are square, follow through...



The above may not be the actual quote.

dave - thanks for all your help. how do i get a job at innova? :)

We accept applications, but you would have a heck of a commute from Santa Barbara. :p

i know i know...still, interested to know about what its like working there though. any prior experience necessary in any other field or anything? also, what about just a tour of the factory? it would be awesome to see that i think.

Went out today testing new discs. Tested some yesterday. Yesterday averaged about 400 ft and Steve Wisecup was slightly beating me and he was testing too. Today I averaged about 440+ ft. and was significantly ahead of Steve. The only difference I can come up with was I was making a concerted effort to relax right before the hit. We both noticed the difference. At first we thought it was the new discs, but it had to be the relaxation as I was throwing all of the discs well over 400 just by relaxing before the hit. So, I would add to the distance secrets already enumerated: (15?) Relax just prior to the hit. If anyone tries this, I would appreciate some feedback on the results.

I read this today before going out to practice (looking for lost discs.) er.. distance in the snow. I was taking some video to show the flights of certain discs to people on the internet who might have never seen a particular disc fly.. Seriously, I had to look at the instant replay to see where some of them went. Look for entry craters.

Anyway-The relaxation right before the hit changed my rhythm a bit. It didn't give me more distance per se, but it DID definitely allow me to be more accurate in the snow, allowing me to change the exact moment of release when footing conditions are unpredictable- as MN winters can be. Before I was trying to accelerate my runup and release to the "hit" but if I take that slight moment before the last action then it felt more in tune. Thanks for the advice Dave.

Pete, thanks for the feedback. I had completely forgotten how cold it is in the most of the country. We were throwing in about 72 degree weather. :o

Went out today testing new discs. Tested some yesterday. Yesterday averaged about 400 ft...



What a great job! Getting paid for throwing discs!

I want to TEST some discs Dave.... :D

Come on down and play Fountain Valley on Monday Night :)

Most people have their fingers curled. I am one of the few that has flat fingers. I think that the curled fingers might actually be stronger, but for me, it bothers the tips of my fingernails and tips of my fingers.



I am one who also uses the "flat fingered grip"

My hands are to long to feel comfortable under the rim as a "True Power Grip"

I rely on the pinch of my fingers. At times I will slide my fingers into the rim a bit more, as needed for certian shots.

My best advise is to throw with what grip feels most comfortable to YOU. As with anything, the more you practice the better you will get.

The best way for ANYONE to improve their throws is to STAY OFF THE COURSE and go to an open field and Throw, and Throw, and Throw, and Throw, and Throw.. :p

Mike, I would love to be there with the discs. A few of my friends will probably be there, but I have to get up too early the next morning.

If you can find one, soccer fields are great to practice on. Throwing different shots from goal to goal has helped me out tremendously...especially on a windy day.

Hey Dave,

Although this isn't the ask Dave thread, since you've asked about relaxing I have a question concerning that. I started reading "Dave's Secrets for throwing far" about a year ago, and try as I might nothing really improved my distance. I had, to the best of my skill incorporated your suggestions but about two months ago I did a mechanistic evaluation of the throw (taking into account your suggestions I built a model on how to best incorporate acceleration and spin onto the disc). I concluded that to get the maximum whip out of a throw I had to keep my forearm relaxed (prior to this I was using my forearm to drive the disc as part of my throw). To get the best movement out of my forearm, I have to keep it very relaxed (I keep just enough tension to keep the disc in place but I do not try and incorporate my forearm muscles into the throw whatsoever. My average throw has jumped from 290 to 330 in that period and I'm hitting a good number of 340 to 360 ft throws.

I have not seen a specific discussion on this in the throwing for distance thread but I'm wondering if that notion is consistent with the relaxation idea you are testing here? Many of your comments indirectly suggest that the forearm should be relaxed but my impression was always that you still used it at the whip. This may have been a misconception on my part.

Lyle, I definitely believe the forearm should be relaxed as long as possible, and that the turn of the shoulders should aid in the extension of the elbow. That being said, I also believe that the quick chop (elbow extension) into the snap should be powered. Someone previously used an analogy on this thread to a karate chop going from relaxed to fully powered as quickly as possible. You could also liken it to a pulse of power preceded and followed by relaxation. Now, if I misconstrued what you meant by "forearm muscles" to mean the actual forearm muscles and not the forearm extensor muscles (triceps) as I took it, then I still feel that there is an active pulse in the forearm muscles which control the movement of the wrist and finger muscles. Most of the muscle power here is used to first stop the forward motion of the wrist, and then to oppose the reverse motion/force caused by the disc's launch.

Hmmm,

In that case, what do you think about the following model. I viewed the body as a series of motors. Motor one is a disk represented by the hips and torso. Motor two is a disk represented by the shoulders. Motor three is the upper arm (a lever that has motors that pull it in the direction you want the disc to travel). Motor three is the forearm (same setup as the upper arm). To get maximum distance I assumed that you had to get all four motors going in unison. Here's the problem. If each motor has a maximum speed say 10 miles per hour, then the max speed you can acheive is 40 miles an hour plus the leverage given by the length of the thrower's arm if you assume that the motor can not exceed its limit of 10 miles per hour (this is the key to this hypothesis).

Conversely, if you allow the forearm motor to freewheel then you have a different situation. The other three motors crank up to their limit of 30 miles an hour but the fourth motor freewheels. When you begin your pull through the forearm follows the upperarm lever but doesn't accelerate into the hit as quickly as if its motor was running. However, once the upperarm lever comes around the forearm begins to accelerate swinging out due to the centrifigal force applied by the torso and shoulders the acceleration starts later but comes up and past the 10 mile an hour limit because the motor is disengaged and the forearm can now freewheel. Hence, the final speed is faster than if you engage all four motors.

A better way to get even more speed (and consistent with your relaxation observation would be if you could use your forearm motor to start the acceleration then disengage once up to speed allowing the lever to exceed the limit of the motor. So by relaxing just before the hit, you allow one or more of the motors to exceed its natural limit. Obviously, if you disengaged every motor you would decelerate. If this model is correct, then I assume that you are hitting the right combination of freewheeling motors to give maximum acceleration at the hit. Furthermore, the "secret" that we often hear that some pros must have is simply a good subconsious feel for what time to allow the right combination of motors to freewheel.

This is the process I went through in my analysis. And by allowing my forearm to freewheel I have added significant distance. It may be that by using the right combination of muscle pull with disengagement I will be able to extend my distance further. On the other hand.... :D

Lyle, I've studied that same model. I think it has flaws. One flaw of the added velocity model is that the hips fly and then stop so that their function has to be expained otherwise. Momentum, shoulder orientation and power explains the hips. Shoulders are a combination of velocity and power. After that, power diminishes and speed takes over. The relaxation of the extremities allows for more speed just like snapping a towel or whip. At the very end of the whip is the tendon bounce which adds a lot of velocity, imo.

Lyle, you have Waaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much time on your hands......

I think we shoudl rename you Jack Handy, for yout "Deep Thoughts"...

Dave, It's that time of year for us in the Northern climates to spend way to much time thinking about little things with our games. These coming months are the time that I try to learn new shots and techniques. I don't like to change my game in the middle of tournament season. I like it to be a set routine and second nature.

This off season, I am working on mastering the four step approach. I have always used the three step approach. Adding an extra step, while slowing down the approach, actually seems to propel the disc as far, or farther, with less effort.

On a three step approach, I start facing left of target(RHBH), then take one step with right foot, cross step so body faces away from target, then plant right foot and throw as one motion. With the four step approach, I start facing the target, step forward on left foot planted facing left side of tee pad, then step forward(actually sideways) with right foot facing nearly 125 degrees away from target. At this point my entire body is starting to face away from the target. The third step taken behind my right foot just like in the three step approach. Only, I am more rotated away from the target, plus I got there with a more relaxed motion and less effort. Then I plant my right foot, rotate and throw almost simultaneously. Okay, does everyone have that?

What I feel, is the extra step allows me to rotate my body away from the target in a more fluid motion. With only the three step approach, I would reach back quickly, then spring forward quickly. I was also hopping on my cross step in order to face backwards. This would cause a pause or sputter in my aprroach. With the four step approach, I am going slower, but get my body in position to plant and throw with more momentum. It has eliminated the hop and the quick reach back and throw. Now, I need to work on accuracy. I find if I don't try to throw as "hard", I get more control. Being winter, I can't really tell if it is going farther, but it "feels" farther with more ease. I am also finding it difficult to be looking away from the target for that extra step. I am truly throwing blind.

Do you use a three or four step approach? And why?
Do you ever take your eyes off the target?

Okay, okay, now you are asking yourself, "How can you not tell your throwing farther in the Winter?" Well, because in the summer I can easliy park certain holes. In the winter, after I put on twenty layers of gear and huge boots, I can't reach those very same holes, no matter how hard I try. I figure for every degree below seventy, I lose one to two feet in distance. So, if it is 30 degrees, I just lost 40 to 80 feet from my drive.

Lyle, you have Waaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much time on your hands......

I think we shoudl rename you Jack Handy, for yout "Deep Thoughts"...





Nope,

I just have a job that is very similar to your's. Hours of boredom followed by intense gut wrenching activity. Also, I was trained as a classical geneticist which means I like to disect everything to figure out how it works.

BTW, nobody gets away with saying I have deep thoughts, some day, 10 or 20 years from now, my rating is going to be higher than yours, just you wait and see.

hehehe, I'll be waiting!!

I have seen you shoot, and wonder how your rating can be so low....

you arent as bad, as your rating makes you seem....

(then again, maybe I caught you on a good day)

:D

I always find this thread the most interesting and the most confusing thread of them all. I often think that I understand what is being said and later realize that I have no clue.

One area of confusion is this term "elbow extension." Please describe what this is?

Lyle, I've studied that same model. I think it has flaws. One flaw of the added velocity model is that the hips fly and then stop so that their function has to be expained otherwise. Momentum, shoulder orientation and power explains the hips. Shoulders are a combination of velocity and power. After that, power diminishes and speed takes over. The relaxation of the extremities allows for more speed just like snapping a towel or whip. At the very end of the whip is the tendon bounce which adds a lot of velocity, imo.



Thanks Dave,

Actually, given what you've said, what I have probably accomplished by being relaxed through the throw is a better whip at the hit. This approach means I don't have to time a wrist bounce and relaxation to get some of their benefits. I might still argue that to some extent, the relaxation at the hit does allow your wrist and forearm to exeed the the speed limits genetically engineered into them, but that doesn't seem inconsistent with what you have already said.

Given this, how is that you are able to lock in your wrist without impeding the powered drive of the forearm? I know this is possible but it seems to be beyond me. Any suggestions.

Happy Holidays

I also agree with this. I have spent a year reading and reading this data and one day I will interpret it one way and the next I will interpret it differently. And I have never been able to interprete elbow extension. I wish you could draw pics here, that would make it easy.

BTW, the end of this thread seems seriously messed up. Has anyone considered restarting this thread like they did with the red rock of shame line?

Yesterday at the football field I threw a disc 375 feet in the air. It landed in goose muck, dead on line, without a skip.

I don't understand half this stuff but I've gone from throwing 275 to 330 on a normal good throw just from reading and spending time at the football field throwing.

Thank you, Dave, and Merry Christmas!

Dave, It's that time of year for us in the Northern climates to spend way to much time thinking about little things with our games.



So move somewhere warm!!!

discette, I use a very short run up. Sometimes three and sometimes four steps with a very short first step. I like to keep my run up as short as possible as many teeing situations are cramped. That being said, you need to do what is comfortable and practical for you. Even though I have long legs, I rarely travel more than 6 to 8 feet toward the target. It's more about rhythm, winding up, and hip position, than anything to do with linear momentum. What you have stated sounds perfectly reasonable to me.

James, elbow extension is unbending your elbow as the beginning of the whip. Most players reach straight back, then bend their elbow as they start to rotate their shoulders, then they extend their elbow to whip the disc. I start with a bent elbow to avoid having to bend and then extend.

Lyle, the wrist lock is only a momentary pulse.

Lurker emerging from the shadows to thanks everyone for their thoughts here, its been an interesting read. Also from the Northern climes, I was doing dry runs of some of the technique in my living room. I somehow managed to put enough pressure down with my plant foot to find a carpet nail. The good news is the resulting chunk of flesh missing from the ball of my foot indicates I was planted about where I should /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Mind you, feedback like this and the resulting champion beast embedded in the dry wall at a nice, flat angle are all good indicators to improving form.


MP.

Mind you, feedback like this and the resulting champion beast embedded in the dry wall at a nice, flat angle are all good indicators to improving form.






PICTURES PLEASE!!!!!!! :eek:

Thanks. I was imagining this one completely wrong. I was thinking more like in basketball where people are "throwing bows." Therefore, the chop is more with the forearm, rather than with the elbow?

A related question in my confused mind is "what is the role of the upper arm. Is it active, or just the connection between the shoulder turn and the lower arm?" I have a real tendecy to try to actively use the upper arm to move the elbow/forearm through. This often leads to "dipping" the elbow and a nose-up swing.

Pictures? Well why not. 'Embedded' is a bit much actually, it sort of wedged its nose in there and hung on. I recommend a max weight for drywall of standard thickness, this poor 171 might never fly right again :( Also, umm... sorry for the mess. I didn't really anticipate this www.visit_to_my_home.com, but welcome in nevertheless! Now, still time to get Christmas presents b4 work, MP out... (limp, limp, limp)

http://www.members.shaw.ca/controlvoltage/foot.jpg
http://www.members.shaw.ca/controlvoltage/nails.jpg
http://www.members.shaw.ca/controlvoltage/beastwall.jpg

OK.....My mistake, the foot pics, could have been left out, i only wanted to see the disc in the wall....

TOO FRIGGIN' HILARIOUS!!!!!!!


PS...clean up you **** slob! :o


:D

I think you can appreciate that the first thing I did when I got up was to read PDGA.com. After that, its sh*t shower shave, then clean-up. I was in between PDGA and sh*t when the trajedy occured. Maybe this all ties in with the mom and the clean underwear theory. You never know when you'll be in a car accident and someone will get a look at your day old gauch. We'll, here they are :D (so to speak, no more pictures to follow)


MP.

Mother Putter says:


no more pictures to follow



Thanks to God above! :eek: But, those are the funniest pictures I have seen on the message board to date!!!! :cool: I thought you were just making that up to be funny and the next thing you know, I am staring at your bloody stump. You need to trim those toe nails.

James, the upper arm (elbow) is what is wound up (back) along with the shoulders and torso. Dipping the elbow will make nose down throws difficult. So, yes the upper arm is active and I would make a concerted effort to lead your throw with your elbow at about face level. Throwing in this manner is more compact and tends to bring the nose of the disc down. If you drop your elbow, your stroke will be longer, slower, and have a tendency to air bounce or be nose up.

Discette, yes I take my eyes off the target on a backhand drive. My upper arm has my elbow pointing almost180 degrees from the target at full wind up. I keep a kinesthetic/visual image of where in space I want to drive the disc through to the target. Sorry, I missed this part in my first post.

Dave,

After years of using the "standard" grip, I have started using the Bonopane grip on long holes. I have noticed a significant increase in my fairway distance. I am using even a shorter runup (3 step) than before. The only adjustment I have had to make is to aim slightly higher than before, since the B grip gives the disc more of a negative angle of attack than before.

Do you use the B grip, and if not, do you know the pros/cons of it (other than maybe having to tape your middle finger)?

I hope things are going well for you and yourn, and tell Tim I said "Hi, Tim!"

I nominate Kelly, aka "Mother Putter" for "Lurker Of The Year"

Everyone give this man five stars if you laughed when you read his story, and then saw the totally unecessary photos. :cool:

Hi Bill, I have used the Bonopane grip in the past. I was using it when I won the distance championship in 81. Long time ago. The B grip had a couple of advantages for me. It is easier to hold the nose down and the disc stays put without any muscle tension which makes it easier to relax just before the hit. This resulted in a quicker acceleration and a better flight path for distance. The downside for me was disc weight. I could only throw about 160 gms with it. Lighter discs work fine for distance but have disadvantages for golf. Another disadvantage is using different grips for short and long throws. It was hard for me to modulate the B grip. It worked great for high speed, but not too well for low speed.

Dave, I have a question about "The Hit". When I started reading this thread over two years ago, I changed the way I gripped the disc. I also started letting the disc rip from my hand, as opposed to me releasing the disc. I noticed great improvement.

From what you have posted recently, I understand you actually stop and pull back your wrist at the hit to create the spin. I do that on my shorter shots to get the most snap on the disc and more control. When I snap a towel, I have to pull back at the end to get the towel to snap. I am afraid if I did that type of snap (pullback) at the end of a driving throw, I would rip my weenie little bicepts and hurt my peck muscles. I am moving that elbow and forearm awful fast to then stop the momentum.

So are you saying to snap (pull back) at the hit?
How do you continue to follow through if you are pulling back your wrist at the hit? I am so confused about this. :confused:

Another quick question.

When you reach back, you curl your elbow around your face at eye level? So, it would look like your trying to sniff your pits? :eek:

I can hear what will be going on in my head when I go try these techniques out..... Okay, bend elbow, sniff pits and snap.

Or would that be bend and snap, a la Elle Woods? :cool:

Or would that be bend and snap, a la Elle Woods? :cool:






GROOOOOOAAAANNNNN..............

Discette, you stop your wrist stiffly but don't pull back. The force of the disc tries to push your wrist back, but you should be able to resist it and actuate the tendon bounce. If you pull through the hit with your arm and shoulder turn and subsequent pivot, there should be no undue force on your biceps or pec. Trying to stop your arm could hurt your throw and your muscles. This kind of injury is most frequently seen in sidearms and overheads where the follow through is minimal or non existent. To review: wrist stops to start disc ejection, arm continues through hit pulled by shoulder turn. Arm eventually ends up 180 degrees or more from the target after follow through with minimal stress.

Now I'm confused again (no no... I'm not stupid just confused ;)). I've always thought that you froze the wrist to stop it from going forward(in the direction of the throw) at the snap. This sounds like you are trying to stop the wrist from going back, towards the body at the throw.

You stop your wrist for two reasons. The first is the stop causes the disc to pivot forward quickly. The second reason is it causes a slingshot effect with the tendon bounce. If you don't stop your wrist abruptly, the disc will pivot anyway, but no tendon bounce and no big power.

The best advice I gleened from this thread in the past two years had to do with gripping the disc. Although, pulling high and striaght across the chest is very important (I was fortunate enough to have an excellent teacher that taught me that particular skill early on....Thank you Jeff Harper).

I used to use what I thought was a standard power grip. But, I discovered my thumb placement was incorrect. I was keeping my thumb on the side of the rim instead of on top.

When I held the disc improperly, I had no wrist movement. Once I grabbed the disc, my wrist became somewhat locked, in that I could not move it side to side. By moving the thumb up onto the plate, and pinching down, it freed up the motion in my wrist. Now, I can waggle my wrist in any direction while maintaining a firm grip on the disc. This also enabled me to let the disc rip from my hand rather than releasing it. It truly added distance. If I try to grip the disc the old way, I wonder how I ever got it to fly at all. My palm was absolutely facing up. Now my palm faces to the side. I can't find the exact advice Dave gave on this thread, but it went something like this: "Hold your hand as though you were going to shake hands with someone with your wirst and thumb tilted down." By keeping the thumb and wrist pushed down it changed the muscles I was using to grip the disc. Before, my forearm was extremely taught. If you make a fist and squeeze hard, the forearm is all tensed up...not much wrist flex there. Now, only my thumb is working to squeeze the disc, and I am not using all the forearm muscles and have unlocked my wrist.

Just wanted everyone who is new to this thread to know how valuable that advice was to me. I am still a weenie arm, but that advice enabled me to finally throw over 300 feet, a distance that escaped me for years. Now I'm working on pushing 350. (okay, with a tailwind, downhill)

Now, I am truly trying to learn not to reach way back, but to bend the elbow and sniff my pit. It is hard to make such a radical change in the way I throw, but based on Dave's track record of advice, I know it can only help my game. At least it should be easier on my old muscles!

We are having a warm spell the next couple of days here in Minnesota, so I will take advantage of the warmth (Is 35 warm to you?) and see what the reach back change can add to my game.

Maybe my best advice to folks new to this thread would be to try one thing at a time, as there is a lot of valuable information contained here. :cool:

You can see excellent pictures of backhand grips at:Juliana's Grip Page (http://newhanoverdiscgolf.tripod.com/basicbackhandgrips.htm)

Oh, I forgot to ask a question: Where does that sock go that gets lost in the wash?

One last question, at what angle to you freeze your wrist in the relase. I know that it wags back towards your body but I'm assuming you don't freeze it there, do you freeze it when it gets back to a straight line with your forearm?

Thanks!

Lyle, I freeze mine somewhat forward. Probably 30 to 40 degrees, and I don't wag/flex back farther than 15 to 20 degrees. This has got to suit your grip and particular strengths. I would say generally you want to stop your wrist at its strongest extension position. Extension is forward and flex is back.

Wow, I have been throwing out in a field lately, yesterday with my dad and today by myself. I am not throwing a lot further, but not only that I can throw side arm almost as far. I am able to throw side arm like 290-300, and my back hand is over 300 but not sure how much. Also I changed my grip a bit, just by putting my finger tips touching the inner rim with all my fingers but my pointer finger with a power grip, and now I throw further and much straighter.

I am stoked! I ordered a Rangefinder and A Radar gun so I can find out how fast we throw up here in the frozen north. Watch, we're all about 10 mph. heheh.

Discette,

how hard was it to learn to let the disc rip out of your hands rather than let go? Don't you lose control/accuracy by not letting go? It seems very counterintuitive to not open my hand during the launch. Did it feel really strange when you first started throwing like that? And Dave, how did you first learn to do that? By accident? And at what range do you let go? You *do* let go when you throw approach shots, don't you?

If I give up my illusion that I have to let go, should I really expect to see an increase in D? On level ground if I throw a Champion Valkyrie, Beast, or Cheetah just right I occasionally get near 400 feet but I'm not there yet...

Discette,

how hard was it to learn to let the disc rip out of your hands rather than let go? Don't you lose control/accuracy by not letting go? Did it feel really strange when you first started throwing like that?



First of all, I can't believe your asking a weenie armed old lady for advice. :eek: But, I will answer your questions.

It was strange at first to let the disc rip out istead of letting go. However, seeing an instant increase in distance made me determined to learn. Yes, I lost a lot of accuracy at first. It was very random. I gained back and eventually increased my accuracy. I do let go on upshots and putts. The first thing I noticed when trying this "not let go" technique was the snapping noise and the whooosh of the disc as it launched out of my hand.

Rob, you can already throw a disc a lot farther than me, so I can't answer the question about being worth it. But, it was definitely worth it to me. :cool:

Now, I'm working hard on the bent elbow technique. My discs are going farther, and they get there a lot quicker. (They are just going the wrong way. :() I am confident the accuracy will return when I perfect the new technique.

I feel the need for speed!!!

Dave, In trying the bent elbow these past days, I was throwing air bounce shots. I don't know how that happened, as I could never throw an air bounce. When the discs left my hand, I thought they were worm burners, but then, they magically lifted and went along their merry way.

What causes "Air Bounce"? Or how do you throw an Air Bounce?

robj, I didn't learn by accident. I had many other sports to draw from plus a knowledge of the physics involved. I learned the power drive very quickly. The mid range came much later and I am still working on perfecting a putt. For the mid range and putt I had to learn to let go more. Every shot has a grip and rip. The up shots need a lighter rip and the putts even lighter. It's all just a matter of grip modulation and how much you're pulling through the rip/hit. Less shoulder turn for the up shot, and very little or no turn for the putt. This grip and rip strength determines how far your shot can go with full body mechanics and rhythm. If your strength, mechanics, and rhythm are perfect, but your grip is weak, you will be limited to the strength of the grip/rip. When you get your rhythm and mechanics right to produce a whip, the disc will get very heavy at the hit and it will pivot and rip itself out feeling momentarily like it weighed about 20lbs on one finger pad.

Thanks for the reply discette. It's funny how I hear advice and then fail to try it, but having read about your progress opens my ears. I guess having been good in Ultimate at hucking made me think I already knew how to throw far. I'll let you know what happens when I try the new technique.

robj, I didn't learn by accident.



Dave, did you use this technique to throw far in Ultimate with bigger discs? The best part of my game is probably my midrange/approach. I think that may have to do with the fact that I want to get close enough not to challenge my not-so-hot putting capabilities :D When I MTA, I seem to throw as high and fast as guys with big D, and I can feel the heavy weight of the disc as I let go. I tend to air bounce everything though. I'm hoping with some work I can start to throw drives as comparatively well as I threw for D with Ultimate discs when I used to be young and could run :-)

robj, I learned to throw with an ultimate disc. The original 80 mold marketed under the name of 165 gm Classic or something. It was a great disc. I could throw it 350 ft. on a dead straight line. Even when the Night Flyer 40 molds came out, I stuck with the 80 until the Night Flyers got heavy. MTA is a good way to practice rhythm and a sharp clean release. All the little mistakes you make in golf will be amplified in MTA. It's the identical throw, just a lot easier to hold the grip. The MTA disc only weighs about 5 lbs at the hit.

MTA is a good way to practice rhythm and a sharp clean release. All the little mistakes you make in golf will be amplified in MTA. It's the identical throw, just a lot easier to hold the grip. The MTA disc only weighs about 5 lbs at the hit.



i've noticed among guys a sort of machismo which takes pride in throwing heavy discs. I am guilty of it too, buying heavy and max weights. Does more weight with proper technique automatically mean greater distance? What kind of weights have set the distance records?

Speaking of MTA, what difference is there if any with the new orange Condors (as compared to the older yellow ones)?

And one last question, do you give any hint of air bounce motion on your release for D or for MTA? I seem to do it with just about everything to get the added control of more spin.
Does that make any sense?

robj, weight is a trade off usually. For golf, usually heavier is better as long as your rhythm isn't affected. If the extra weight slows your snap, it isn't good. Heavy discs will retain their initial velocity longer which is noticeable into the wind. Lighter discs carry farther, which is noticeable downwind and uphill. Heavy discs dampen out small throwing errors, roll better, plow through fairway fluff, and handle wind much better. High 60's to low 70's is the usual distance weight. Golf weight for pros is usually max. I would recommend as heavy as you can put a quick hit on. If that is 150gm, then that is it. I don't know the difference in the Condors, sorry. As for the airbounce: It is almost always bad unless you want to purposefully stall left or do an air bounce under some obstacle. Otherwise it slows your shot down and causes it to fall left. RHBH. More spin is good, but air bounce is bad. Christian Voight (sp) is about the best I've seen at throwing MTA type distance. He gets exceptional height and with the extra spin he imparts, gets his discs to turn over and glide nosedown for big distance.

As for the airbounce: It is almost always bad unless you want to purposefully stall left or do an air bounce under some obstacle. Otherwise it slows your shot down and causes it to fall left. RHBH. More spin is good, but air bounce is bad.



Dave, thanks for the great information about disc weights. As for the air bounce, maybe i am talking about adding spin and not the downward wrist spring part. How would you define an airbounce? (Discette asked you about that too).

In Ultimate I was usually the guy who pulled into the wind. I could get the thing to go out quite a ways and then stall, hang a long time, and drop straight down rather than come back. I did this with feel, but I think it was a matter of a lot of hyzer (enough to have a strong wind turn the disc flat) and a lot of english to really spin the disc out of the hit. I thought of that as sort of an airbounce thing, but maybe I am mixing adding spin into the definition of an airbounce.

Also If you could say something about the basic difference between throwing a Ultimate disc for distance and throwing a golf driver for distance maybe that would help me too. Thanks for your time.

robj, I don't think you were throwing nose up (air bounce). You were most likely throwing high spin shots. High shots, with nose down and a lot of spin will produce the shots you are talking about. High shots with nose up will crash and burn. One big difference between throwing Ultimate discs and golf discs, especially drivers is that ultimate discs naturally fly higher and have a tendency to pull their own nose down. Golf discs, especially drivers do not pull their own nose down and have to be thrown accordingly. That is, they have to be thrown very low, turnover, unstable hyzer, or reverse air bounce to get their nose down on any shot with any height.

Dave, thanks for that reply. It is very cool to hear it explained so well. Throwing is so much about feel that breaking it down and explaining it is really quite foreign and difficult, until i hear you talk about the 'hit' and the heaviness of the disc at release and then it all starts to click. I am slowly learning. Fortunately I get to play fairly often with a pro who thoroughly kicks my butt in golf. Nothing seems to be quite as good as losing when it comes to being motivated to improve.

I can hardly wait for the little angel t get a little older, so i can get out on the courses regularly agin.....having full baby duty onthe weekends, sure sucks.....

Discette, I see I never answered your question about what causes air bounce. Sorry. Air bounce is caused by counter clockwise wrist rotation at the hit. The nose of the disc is pulled up above the plane of attack and produces nose up flights that rise, stall, and fall left. The counter clockwise rotation comes from two sources. The most common is dropping the disc in a low arc from backswing to hit. We call that action swooping. You want to maintain the attack plane on your swing. The second less common cause is rotating your wrist counterclock at the hit, even with a level plane swing. Good field practice can have you doing purposeful air bounces, reverse air bounces, and level shots at will. Controlling the plane of your disc at the hit, as well as the plane of your swing can give you much more distance and accuracy, as well as add a lot of finesse to your game. Sorry for the delayed response.

Thanks for the delayed response. :p You have a gift for breaking swing mechanics into words we can all understand. :D

I must have been "swooping". Note: Add term to Disc Dictionary

Air bounce is caused by counter clockwise wrist rotation at the hit. The nose of the disc is pulled up above the plane of attack and produces nose up flights that rise, stall, and fall left. The counter clockwise rotation comes from two sources. The most common is dropping the disc in a low arc from backswing to hit. We call that action swooping. You want to maintain the attack plane on your swing. The second less common cause is rotating your wrist counterclock at the hit, even with a level plane swing.



Dave, that is amazing to hear it broken down like that -- thanks! What I think I am doing in MTA is a slight airbounce using the second method above at the hit to help further counter the understable properties of a fast spinning, MTA-weight Condor. I throw with a ton of hyzer to what an experienced MTA'er calls the "back door" and the modified air bounce at the end seems to get the disc, at the end of its hyzer climb, to flatten, stall, and hover seemingly unable to decide whether to stall left and fall fast or flip right and fall steeply. if the throw is just 'right' it just stays and hangs, falling flat and slowly. in the hit i am using a counterclockwise wrist spring motion that is also putting as much spin as possible onto the thing.
What it does is consistent with what you described as using a lot of spin, but i think i'm doing that with a slightly counterclock wrist spring. i find that extends the time the disc spends at the peak of its flight, and it increases the spin. the hyzer release seems to dominate till the peak, at which time the wrist sprung air bounce kicks in...
Have you ever tried that when MTA'ing?

Robj, you are doing two out of three correctly, I believe. I too, do backdoor MTA. The extra spin is excellent, as is the turnover at height. Nose up doesn't help a lick as far as I am concerned. I try to take a high bite with a nose down attack. It gets plently of lift anyway and as it turns over slightly gets level with lots of spin to produce consistent 12 sec times that float gently back to earth. I got a 14 plus sec time once in competition for a masters world record using that technique.

Robj, you are doing two out of three correctly, I believe. I too, do backdoor MTA. The extra spin is excellent, as is the turnover at height. Nose up doesn't help a lick as far as I am concerned. I try to take a high bite with a nose down attack. It gets plently of lift anyway and as it turns over slightly gets level with lots of spin to produce consistent 12 sec times that float gently back to earth. I got a 14 plus sec time once in competition for a masters world record using that technique.



Dave, isn't it possible to give the wrist spring motion of an airbounce while keeping the nose down? i don't think i am really putting the nose up, as much as what i call as using the english of the spin to get the disc to hover at the end of its carry. It is the same technique I used in Ultimate to get a disc to hang in place out in front of a receiver breaking to an open area (a touch throw rather than a zoomer). I have only been MTA'ing a year, and my best times are a 12.46 and a 12.77 (the 12.77 was on Wednesday). Yesterday, my best time was 11.59. Fred Salaz and I MTA together. What type of disc do you get consistent 12's with? I get the best times with a Condor. MTA is such a blast. I have yet to MTA in formal competition, but the times above are of course ones that weren't dropped :-). Is 14 currently the Master's record or is it higher? Is the open record 18? My New Year's resolution is to throw a 14 (hopefully the wind will decide to help me out)

i keep seeing this, what is MTA?

i keep seeing this, what is MTA?



MTA is short for Maximum Time Aloft. On level ground you throw a disc in the air while it is timed. To count, a throw must be caught by the thrower with one hand (no traps against the body allowed). Time starts with the release of the disc and stops at the intial contact of the catch. The Fall 2003 DGWN (#67) talks about it on page 20 in the article about the 2003 World Disc Games under the Heading Self-Caught Flight.

rob, I might be confused by what you are saying, but wrist spring and air bounce are independent. An air bounce is simply a throw that has the nose of the disc above the plane of the throw or swing. Wrist spring helps cause acceleration and spin. As for the record; I believe Jim Herrick broke my record with a high 14 or low 15 sec throw. I did it with a light Classic Roc, but I can do consistent 12s with a Lynx, which is like a Condor. If the Open record is higher than high 16s, it's news to me. I haven't competed in years. When they started combining MTA and TRC, it killed me. I have the T and the C, but no R.

rob, I might be confused by what you are saying, but wrist spring and air bounce are independent. An air bounce is simply a throw that has the nose of the disc above the plane of the throw or swing. Wrist spring helps cause acceleration and spin.




Dave, probably it is me that is confused, because i included wrist spring (acceleration and spin) in when i learned to air bounce (nose up). Do you use wrist spring as a added help for hangtime when throwing MTA?


As for the record; I believe Jim Herrick broke my record with a high 14 or low 15 sec throw. I did it with a light Classic Roc, but I can do consistent 12s with a Lynx, which is like a Condor. If the Open record is higher than high 16s, it's news to me. I haven't competed in years. When they started combining MTA and TRC, it killed me. I have the T and the C, but no R.



In the DGWN coverage of the 2003 World Disc Games, I just read that the open record for MTA is 16.72 seconds (Don Cain, men) and 11.81 seconds (Amy Bekken, women). How light was the Classic Roc you threw for 14 seconds? I have thrown the Lynx and it seems more stable than Condors. Would using the "back door" be a more of a disadvantage for TRC? (I am thinking if i wanted to go for long distance the front door might make sense). The nice thing about MTA'ing is my legs are re-learning how to R (run). My lungs get a good workout too. For the Masters division, maybe they ought to consider separating MTA and TRC and combining them for a third category. I'm hoping for a 14 sometime but I doubt I'll ever get one in a competition. What year did you do that?

Rob, I try to use the wrist spring for everything. Very efficient. The Roc was about 100 gms. The competition was probably around 1986. I used to do overall Frisbee competion in the 80's. No freestyle, but everything else.

Rob, I try to use the wrist spring for everything. Very efficient. The Roc was about 100 gms. The competition was probably around 1986. I used to do overall Frisbee competion in the 80's. No freestyle, but everything else.



wow, a Roc only about 100 grams! You stopped making the Lynx -- right? What is the lightest possible Aviar that is currently being made? I would love to try MTA'ing a very light Aviar. Condors are nice too -- I think Fred said they are 139 grams ... What amazes me is he MTA's with a power grip. I feel like I get better spring control with a modified FU grip.
Do you still MTA? I cannot believe how much fun it is! I could do it all day, every day. Unfortunately strong winds aren't that common here, and it is pretty cold usually this time of year (ouch on those fast fallers :)
Sorry to ramble all over the place, but when you putt do you place your index finger on the rim, or do you do an FU grip, or...?

I used the FU grip for MTA. I don't do MTA anymore, but I could as I can still throw light plastic with no problem and the FU is perfect for light plastic. I putt with a fan grip. Baby finger and index on the rim, two middle fingers fanned on the flight plate. I use FU for approaches. The lightest Aviars are about 105 gms. Light Rocs are better. Either the Classic Roc, which is great but hard to control and throw. Or the MTA Roc which is 113 gms. Easy to throw and control. The easiest of course is the Condor, which took over for the Lynx when the mold was retooled, but it's not likely to break 17. The Classic Roc could easily.

I have a good concept of pulling through the hit with throwing-arm follow-thru...but how should one pull through the hit with the hips and legs? Are they pulling through as well...or are they freezing to create the whip?

circle 2, the hips fly open first then freeze. They follow just after the plant foot releases on the follow through.

dave, are the mta rocs available? the only ones i've seen are going for 20+ dollars on ebay.

Paul, yes they should be available now.

Paul, yes they should be available now.



Dave,

Does Innova sell any of the light 113g Rocs on the East Coast? Specifically in NC? I'd love to get one for my son.

Lowe

Lowe, you need to contact South Carolina. (803) 366-5028.

[Not a Roc question but...]
Dave, I've seen a few people talking about throwing a disc 'high' when going for distance (30 feet high or so was mentioned).
My question is how do you throw high AND keep the nose down?
:confused:

Blarg, the right side of the disc becomes the the front. You throw off high and to the left turned over. The nose is up straight away from you and toward the left, but the disc is traveling in the direction of the turnover which makes the right side of the disc the nose. The right side, or tilted down side, becomes the nose as the disc travels from left to right. This is done to gain altitude to allow the disc to cruise a long way in favorable wind conditions.

I�m videoing myself to try and work on my technique throwing drives and approaches. I�ve already found a few things with just a side view during my first video session. Is it worth the trouble to set up an overhead cam or is it overkill? Any ideas anyone?

engrhawg:
I think overhead would be great, as you could see your overall form through the shot. Potentially even more valuable (and never been done) would be an up angle shot of your forearm and hand at release, as that would show exactly what is happening at the 'snap.'

I agree with blarg, but the camera speed would have to be very fast.

Hey Guys! I just had a meeting with GGGT to take some driving videos with a Cherry picker from Above, a camera from the open side of the throw, and a camera at the receiving end! The camera are high end DV, and I will be sharing the results as soon as I can. I'm gonna try and replicate a very basic good form throw and then insert various discs... Try to ignore the disc and throw a level medium armspeed drive. We'll see how different drivers across manufacturers compare with this type of setup. I'm pumped!

thanks guys. I think i'll have to give the overhead view a try next time I have a video taping session. Word to the wise......use bright discs that contrast with your clothes when you video.

Sounds awesome....let us know when we can see it!!!

gottagogottathrow.com, I can only assume...

Gonna get Discette on there too for a woman's perspective and throwing form.

To Dave Dunipace-
What we'd really like is to see a video, available online, of you demonstrating the Compact throw that you've been describing here. Can you get someone to video you with digital video and then put it on the Innova website? I'd really love to see what some of the things you've taught actually look like. I'd also like to see the stacked grip that you describe. I never could do it.

Lowe

Ron Russell does it well and there is already a video of him throwing. :)

yeah, but who wants to see you throw, Petey? What we need is a cmaera shot of your sugar gliders when you are hiking the course...

Lowe, which stacked grip? The normal stack that Kenny uses or the double cross stack that I use? The stack that Kenny uses is also called the fork grip, i believe.

Dave,

I'd like to see both Ken Climo's AND your grip.

But I was referring to the one described in the Distance article as follows:
"Another effective grip is the fork or stack grip which Ken Climo uses and describes. This grip has the last three fingers stacked one on top of the other against the rim. You can employ different variations of the three finger positions, but essentially all three pads are exerting pressure into the vertical wall of the rim, and the rip comes from there. Climo does it middle on ring on pinkie on rim. I do it pinkie on ring on middle on rim, which is harder to do, but more powerful, and it�s easier to keep the nose down. In order to get the feel of this grip, you may have to release all the pressure (except lightly) on the pad of your thumb and index finger. The most distal articulations of the three last digits are hyper extended. The index finger may be put along the outside of the disc, or wrapped loosely around the rim. The thumb pad is out over the flight plate alone. The base of the thumb (not the pad) opposes the last three finger pads, with the rim in between. The pressure of the snap should be felt on the pads of the last three fingers holding the rim into the base of the thumb. This is a more powerful grip that will allow a very powerful, momentary rip. This will cause your fingers to be sore for the first few times you try it, but they will get used to it. The better you do it, the sorer your fingers will get with repetition. They will adapt."

Lowe are you saying that is my description?

Lowe are you saying that is my description?



Dave,

Yeah, you said it, either on this thread or in an e-mail to me. Does that suprise you? That quote is taken straight from the Distance Secrets article under "Grips". You're the only guy I know who says stuff like "distal articulations". ;)

Lowe

Lowe, it doesn't surprise me at all. It sounds exactlly like my goofy vocabulary and I agree with it completely. I just don't remember writing it. Sometimes, it just comes out, then I'm on to other things, sorry.

Hi Dave.

Snoop

Hey Walt


:)

Good night John Boy.

Thank you Lowe! After re-reading that old Dave D post about the stacked grip, I realized what I've been doing wrong with my grip lately. Now ... lets see if it actually translates to the course.

A little tip that should be helpful for both men and women. Using your hips properly can help both distance and accuracy quite a bit. Flexing, stretching, and strengthening the hip rotation can be very valuable. Using the hips properly is extremely valuable. Flying (opening) the hips, quickly just prior to shoulder rotation is absolutely necessary if you ever want to throw well. If you just practice the footwork necessarry for the hip fly with the hip fly during your address of the shot, it will help to strengthen and connect you properly to a more integrated powerful throw. I can't tell you how many times I have seen a useless disintegrated address with no hip fly and no shoulder rotation. Just a mostly useless arm motion. An integrated address can do wonders for your drive.

Dave,

Thanks for the advice on the hips. Here's a video clip of Ron Russell at the 2000 Worlds. http://www.discgolf.com/discreview/ronrussell.html.
Is it a good example of the hip rotation you describe? Also, is this a good example of the compact throw? Unfortunately it goes so fast that there it's hard to really see what is happening.

It's been a while, so I'll throw out this reminder that I've compiled the contents of this thread into an article called "DAVE DUNIPACE DISTANCE SECRETS: The Compact Throw"

I'm now in the process of revising it with Dave's latest tips. You can find it at on the internet at the MSN Group �Disc Golf Resources� which is at http://groups.msn.com/DiscGolfResources. There are also other helpful resources including Course Guides, a Bag Buyer�s guide, Tips on the mental game, and more.

Thank you Lowe! After re-reading that old Dave D post about the stacked grip, I realized what I've been doing wrong with my grip lately. Now ... lets see if it actually translates to the course.



Danny,

Can you actually do that stacked grip? I never could so I gave up trying.

Thank you Lowe! After re-reading that old Dave D post about the stacked grip, I realized what I've been doing wrong with my grip lately. Now ... lets see if it actually translates to the course.



Danny,

Can you actually do that stacked grip? I never could so I gave up trying.



Can anyone provide an actual picture of this grip? I have tried it based on the description and I couldn't do it either. Of course it's very possible that I just don't understand the description and you know how many words a picture is worth.

Sorry Lowe, I couldn't open the link, but if it is the one, I have seen, it does show everythin well but way too fast for most people to catch. Ron has excellent form and is a good example of the compact style. I don't agree with the long run up, but that is a rhythm momentum thing for him. I don't want it personally as it requires good tees that aren't always there.

david, you might try Ken Climo's site. He describes his grip I believe. That might help.

Dave,

Is there any possibility of Juliana getting some pictures of your and Ken Climo's stacked grip and adding it to her "juliana's Disc Golf Stuff" grip pictures page? Does she still work for Innova?

Lowe, yes that is a possibility. I will speak with her when I can.

Lowe:
The link doesn't work. :(

Lowe:
The link doesn't work. :(



Which link? For the Ron Russell video or for the DG Resources Group?

Lowe,

The DG Resources Group link comes back with "Hmmm, we can't find that page..."


Luke

Lowe, yes that is a possibility. I will speak with her when I can.



Dave,

I can't believe how you manage to answer so many questions! But if it would be possible for you to give us a notice when (and if) Juliana gets the stacked grip pictures up we'd appreciate it.

Lowe

Thanks for the heads up on the bad link for the Ron Russell video.
Also I gave the wrong address. Sorry. Try this link to Disclife.com and their 2000 Worlds coverage.

http://www.disclife.com/worlds2000/gallery/video_mon_01.shtml
Then click on "Ron Russell..."




Lowe:
The link doesn't work. :(

Lowe,

The DG Resources Group link comes back with "Hmmm, we can't find that page..."


Luke




(Lowe's original message)
...You can find it at on the internet at the MSN Group �Disc Golf Resources� which is at http://groups.msn.com/DiscGolfResources. There are also...



Sorry, but I didn't notice the period "." at the end. That messed it up. This should work now:

http://groups.msn.com/DiscGolfResources

Thanks! I'm gonna bookmark it this time.

Luke

Here's a link to some excellent pictures of Ron Russell's throw that I just rediscovered:
http://www.discgolfreview.com/resources/analysis/ronrussell.shtml

At the bottom of the page you can also download 3 videos of his throw.

Dave D - Are these a good example of the compact throw and of opening the hips?

Here's a link to detailed analyses of many different players throws:

http://www.discgolfreview.com/resources/throwanalysis.shtml

Great work Blake!!

Lowe, yes the still shots are very good. Ron has very good form. I would only look at the right column to see how much he uses his legs, otherwise it doesn't show much. The center and left columns have most of the necessary information. If I were coaching Ron I would see if he could raise his elbow slightly, but otherwise perfect. He uses a heel spin plant very well as he flies his hips open and is in very good postition throughout the throw and follow through. His run up is light and his x step and foot position excellent. This is not a light man, so if he can do the foot work, so can most others. As I have said before, the run up is not necessary, but he uses it well.

Wow, this is a great thread! I started reading it about a month ago and just finished. (ok, I have had a lot of time on my hands the last couple weeks. I have been sick and could not go throw, so reading this was the next best thing.)

I played in an Ice Bowl this weekend and was able to make some subtle changes to my drive. I did not want to change too much before I get a chance to practice. I was able to relax up until the hit (I usually keep my fingers tight the whole time). I noticed the snap sound on most drives where before, it was not there very consistently (by the way, I always hear the snap on my roller, and looking at my technique, I think I throw a bent elbow roller. I throw about 80% power and always here the snap because I am concentrating so hard on the angle of release, and leaning back without falling.) I pulled my arm through higher and tried to accelerate my arm through the hit. I ignored my reach back, in fact, I don�t really know how far back I go and if my arm is straight or not. During a tournament is not the time to mess with it. My footwork seems fine (slow x step) but I concentrated on leading with my hips. My drives had normal distance but were more accurate than usual and with less effort (I did not want to slip on the pads that had been shoveled but were still slick). I hit fewer trees and was able to put the disc where I wanted. I will work on distance later. I had two drives that turned over and did not come back. I think those are the two that would have gone the farthest (loud snap on both). Got to get the air under them and aim further left.

I have one question for Dave. Where is the hit, left of center, dead center, or right of center and how far? Maybe it is in the same place on every shot. I am sure mine is left and high for anhyzers and right and lower for hyzers. If you have gone over this before, sorry, I must have missed it.

Thanks for all the info. Can�t wait to get out on the practice field!

dm4, I don't think anyone has asked that question before. Thank you. The hit is the disc exploding or ripping from your grip. It would be in front of your face and left of center for turnovers and rollers and right of center for hyzers. The distance in front is optional but I would try to feel it as far in front as possible

Thanks for answering that for me Dave. I thought I was doing it right but wasn't sure. A couple years ago I hyperextend my elbow. For a few weeks I was a lefty, which I have heard a lot of players do when they are injured. When I started throwing again I was convinced I had to throw with my elbow locked out (through the entire motion!). My only source of power was the tendon bounce. I could maybe get 325 throwing this way. All my drives cut hard left at the end. I tried to work on the elbow with some stretching and exercise bands. Now I can use the elbow as I need to and throw with full power. The problem was follow through. This year I will work some on D (birdie grip or one of the stacked grips, and bent elbow), but my main focus will be practicing mid range and PUTTING.

davei, when you say the hit is 'in front of your face,' does that mean it occurs while your shoulder is still pointed at the target, or a bit later when your body has begun to turn to face the target?

Blarg, the hit shoud occur as your shoulder is pulling your arm through the hit as hard as it can. Shoulder will be open slightly at this point and going to 180 away from target

davei:
Thanks! That's about how it appears in the videos I've studied, but the actual 'hit' is always hard to see as it happens so quickly it's always a blur, even in slo-mo.
Another question: I've seen several players make a disc start with a bit of hyzer and then 'flip' up level and travel a long way in a straight line.
I can do it myself, but I'm not sure how I do it! More often than not, when I try to do it, I end up with a big left-turn hyzer shot.
Is there a special technique involved, or is it just the right kind of snap with a slight hyzer release? :p

blarg, that could be many things, including hypersnap, the disc charateristic, nose down, or a combination. I would have to see it myself to tell.

Davei:
There's a good example of the disc 'flip' in a small video here:
Shannon (http://www.discgolfreview.com/resources/analysis/shannonduren.shtml)

Blarg, if I looked at the right video of the girl, I didn't see anything like what you described. Disc characteristic is the most likely cause of what you describe. Next most likely is a combination of disc characteristic and nose down snap. Least likely is hyperspin. The best women in the world don't do hyperspin. Most men don't either. Christian Voigt does and quite a few of the distance throwing finalists at the USDGC. Quite impressive.

Dave, even though I suspect I'll never have either, what are you talking about when you say hypersnap and hyperspin? Is this just a lot of snap and spin, or something else?

James, Nolan has some hyperspin. expecially on Rocs.

James, yes it is excess spin on a disc that is going very fast anyway. Theoretically, it shouldn't happen, but I have seen it many times and have done it myself. The disc flies about 250 ft then turns and lifts and then goes forward. It is the only way I can throw 500 ft without having a lot of wind. The turn and lift puts the disc in a perfect gliding position for very long throws. It's a rare day when i can do it myself but, Craig Leyva can seemingly do it all day long.

Davei:
Sorry, I should have been more specific. There are 3 little videos of Shannon at that link. The third (last on right) one
shows the disc flight with the slight 'flip' to horizontal from
hyzer. Shot from behind her.
I didn't realize there were 3 different videos until now. :p

Blarg, If you look at the last video of me on that site, my drive is thrown very nose down hyzer and it flips a lot and does the S curve. However, I will be the first to say that I do not have hyperspin or hypersnap.

Blarg, Kid Roc probably has the right explanation. Nose down with a disc that has a slight to moderate turning character will mimick the effect. Not as good as hyperspin, but very effective none the less as it gets the disc in good glide position.

i have a few questions:

1.what is hyperspin or hypersnap :confused:
2.if the nose is down wouldn't you be throwing into the ground. :confused:
3.how can i get 500ft out of my arm :D

i have a few questions:

1.what is hyperspin or hypersnap :confused:
2.if the nose is down wouldn't you be throwing into the ground. :confused:
3.how can i get 500ft out of my arm :D



answers:

1. lots of spin or snap
2. no
3. you can't

just kidding :D

[QUOTE]
i have a few questions:

answers:

1. lots of spin or snap
2. no
3. you can't

just kidding :D




ha ha kid :D

1 :is there a technic to spin and snap
2 :i would probily need a visual on that one
3 :i'll show you if it's the last thimg i do

I don't really know how I do it when I do. It does involve a lot of power so I have to feel real good that day. And it does involve a real good grip and rip. Complete power transfer through the hit. Most days I just don't seem to have enough excess power to pop the hyperspin. Much easier to gain altitude and cruise position by using an unstable disc to climb and turn or stable with turnover. Christian Sandstom did not use hyperspin, he was just brutal. Christian Voigt does use hyperspin. Hyperspin is better if you can do it. If you can't, use the other techniques.

you say "if you can do it"....well whats doing it? like, what is the technique for it, how do you actually accomplish it?

ryan, like I said, I don't really know how I do it at will. I just know that when I pass a certain threshold of power in the whip, it starts to happen. It is not very often for me, and I can't do it at will. Wish I could tell you more. Much easier to do with light discs, but much more effective with heavier.

Wow. After 119 pages, someone finally comes up with an aspect of throwing Dave can't quite explain. Perhaps understanding hypersnap will be the challenge of the next generation of great throwing gurus.

DGWN, March 2035: "In a paper presented last month to the applied sciences committee of the PDGA, a team of researchers from Ann Arbor, Michigan, documented the first reliable method for achieving hypersnap. Disc scientists have been pursuing an understanding of this elusive phenomenon since late in the last century. Dave Dunipace, the preeminent discologist of the era, was able to observe hypersnap sporadically in his own throws and those of his Innova graduate students, but could neither explain nor consistently reproduce it . . ."

Or something like that.

davei and everybody:
Here's a theory that may partly explain how the 'flip' occurs.
I'm not an aeronautics engineer, but I've read a bit about the science of flight. Assuming a rhbh throw, the disc is rotating in a clockwise direction. As the disc is a wing, the forward momentum through the air, if sufficient, will provide lift. However, since a disc is a spinning wing, the left edge of the disc is rotating against the air flow over the disc and effectively is moving against the air faster than the right side of the disc which is rotating away from the flight path and therefore should have less lift than the left edge.
The result, if the theory is correct, would be that the left edge
would rise.
Does that make sense?

Blarg, that makes sense, but doesn't happen in reality. I have seen tons of data from many different sources. And from different countries too. I have a theory for why it happens, but don't want to go into it as I use it to design discs which act as if the theory is correct. But no proof as yet. For now, let's just say it happens, and takes a real big pop to make it happen. :)

it's all smoke and mirrors if you ask me :mad:

davei:
I was afraid of that :). If the theory I proposed were correct then more spin would equal more turnover, which in fact, does not happen. :mad::confused: :p

Dave, if the hyperspin is something you can only do on occasion, does that mean when it doesn't work you end up with too much hyzer and your throw stalls too early and falls left? Or does it force your flat throws to flip too much and end up too far right? I guess this is something you mainly use to gamble for extra distance...?
One last question -- can you give me some tips to keeping the nose down. I'm having trouble doing it consistently, and though practice is the best teacher, some extra cues to get my release mechanics correct will be appreciated. Maybe you could also point out what the main causes of *not* keeping the nose down are. Thanks. I know you have covered this before but I feel like I need a "guide to keeping the nose down for idiots" because often when I go for extra distance I end up throwing high with nose up and the dang things crash and burn. :confused:

robj, I don't even try to do hyperspin when I don't have it. When I do it, it is for max distance. Most of my throws without it do tend to stall and fade left anyway. As for getting nose down: two main things to do. First, is to keep your wrist down as far as it wil comfortably go such that the plane of the disc is lined up with your forearm or is tilting down a little if that is possible for you. Next is to lead with your elbow high so that as you pull through the snap you will naturally drop your elbow and pull the nose down through the snap. The last thing is to try and throw the back end of your disc over the front through the snap.

Tomas Ekstr�m (swedish disc legend TM ;) ) has made a good illustration on the disc/wrist/forearm alignment Dave mentions. Still available at: disc and wrist angle picture (http://biphome.spray.se/discgolfer/vinkel.jpg) . Clues to understanding the pic: "R�tt" = correct, "Fel" = wrong, "Vinkel" = angle.

Thank you peter, an excellent illustration. Top one for english speakers.

I have a question about keeping the weight over my front foot during the throw and follow through. Is it better to push off my back foot after I plant and start hips, or should I just use forward momentum from approach to get weight over my front foot?

Discette, you should do both at the same time. A good X step will help that.

I just posted on another thread how a lightbulb has gone off over my head and I thought this would be a better thread to express my findings. I now realize the importance of officially (in my own mind) defining my own style. I think I have confused myself in the past because I was trying to incorporate every technique I learned of into my own game when really only certain techniques will be effective with certain styles of throwing. For the last two years, I have been a bent arm guy, so there is no point in trying to learn how a straight reach back, long run-up player does his/her thing. It is much better for me to identify a pro that utilizes my style and try to learn from them. Anyway, as obvious as this sounds, I thought I would share in case anyone else out there is a slow learner like myself :)

I know this sounds really lame, but I was goofing around at my desk with one of those flair pens. Using my thumb under the clip, I was able to shoot the lid up in the air several feet (stay with me here for a moment). See, the pen cap stays in place when completly on and when you apply force, it shoots off. Now, I tried it again with the lid on only a little, and no matter how hard I flicked the lid, it would only go a few inches. To me (and I know I am reaching here) this is like the snap during the hit. Ok, I have way too much time on my hands. I will stop now and let you go back to real throwing stuff. :)

Teacher + Holiday = Trouble! :o
:D

Theres no holiday! This is a "regular" day for me. Too much planning time I guess. :)

dm4, your analogy is correct. You are compressing the force.

You know it's really easy to do with a pen cap, but with a disc... /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

I'll keep trying.

You are compressing the force.



...and Yoda is not amused!

So it seems like we might have two forces working together here. I'll call the first one the trebuchet effect. A trebuchet (http://www.trebuchet.com/kit/warwolf/), for anyone who doesn't know, is a style of medieval catapult. Basically, it had an arm with a big weight on one end and a sling on the other. The weight would drop, pulling the arm up until it pointed vertical. If the payload had been in a basket at the end of the arm, it wouldn't have gone very far. But when the arm stopped suddenly, the sling whipped forward, launching the projectile with enormous force. This, to me, is analogous to the body->arm->wrist progression in throwing a disc. By keeping the wrist loose, you cause it to act like the sling on the trebuchet.

The second force would be the pen-cap effect described above. The trick is that to achieve this pen-cap "pop," you have to stop your wrist during its sling motion.

So perhaps the best throws are the ones that make the most effective use of both of these forces.

Well, I don't know if that's going to help anyone throw farther, but for me, breaking it down into models like this helps to reinforce just how complex throwing a disc is. I can't think of another throwing/launching device or technique that requires so many elements to come together perfectly.

I now realize the importance of officially (in my own mind) defining my own style.



I couldn't agree more! I was having a really hard time trying to add distance to my backhand throw. Not only was I not throwing any farther, I had lost all sense of accuracy! Finally, when that video of Ron Russell came up here a couple weeks ago, I started to groove the bent-arm technique. By combining elements of that, and a few other things I'd read on here/observed in person, with what felt most "natural" to me, I've been able to make huge strides really quickly. I haven't necessarily seen a big increase in power, but I'm much, much more consistent.

So thanks Dave, for all your time on here answering questions, and thanks to everyone for throwing your insights into the pot.

boru, first thank you, and second, I agree with your analogies of the two forces. But throwing a disc is no different than throwing a football or baseball. I got my inspiration from these sports and translated it directly into disc throwing. It was really the stiff wrist and fingers from football and baseball that made it easy for me to throw far. Those are the two things that gave me a fastball in pitching and a 60 yard plus throw in football. All competant throwers can do the hip, shoulder, and arm mechanics, IMO, I believe it is the wrist and fingers that separates the top throwers from the mediocre.

I guess what strikes me as different about throwing a disc, versus a football or a baseball, is the precision necessary at every step of the way. For instance, you see some very long passes in football that don't travel with a perfect spiral. But if you get the nose up on your disc, it goes nowhere.

The javelin might actually be a pretty close match with disc throwing. It's a light implement where technique matters a lot more than strength. There are also some very strong similarities between javelin footwork and the X-step.

Your comment about the legs/hips/shoulders vs. arm and wrist in throwing a ball is interesting, because I was always the opposite. I had a quick release, which gave me a decent arm, but I had a hard time connecting my lower body to the throw.

Thank you peter, an excellent illustration. Top one for english speakers.



Dave, this may be a stupid question, but how do i hold the disc at that angle and get anhyzer? Pros tell me I throw with hyzer (even when I think I am throwing with anhyzer -- i guess compared to throwing an Ultimate lid it only feels like anhyzer).

O.K. I've been working on my drives for about a month now. I go to a park on my lunch break and throw back and forth across the softball fields about 6x / 70 throws or so and all I got to say is I HATE THIS GAME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :cool:

I'm throwing great in the field but when I take my game to the course its not all coming together. Just as a Ball-Golfer hits the ball well at a driving range and then shanks it on the 1st hole.

It's cool to get into a/th' groove practicing...but it'll build confidence for the course and league/tourney situations.
The more you practice, the luckier you get!

robj, if you hold your disc high you will get anhyzer, low for hyzer, very high for roller. Your disc should be in line with your forearm. So, you should know the angle from the angle you get from extending your forearm.

Dave, thanks for the answer. that would explain why i have trouble throwing backhand rollers :D

robj:
Here's something that may sound obvious, but it may help.
Keep adjusting your practice throws until you can make a disc turn right (rhbh). Once you can do that consistently with some snap, you can try to work your way back to flat from the right turn angle. Eventually you will find that any disc can be thrown right or left and the 'compromise' of both curves will produce the ever popular flexed out distance 'S.'
All the brand new players I've tried to help have trouble with this (including me). They try to throw with anyzer and often still throw with a LOT of hyzer.

Blarq, thanks for the help. I think one of my problems is my Ultimate background taught me to really hyzer anything thrown especially hard since a lid flips so easily. Even what I think is anhyzer turns out to be too much hyzer. My muscle memory seems to know better than to throw with a lot of annie because it won't work on any hard throw (with an ultrastar). I do okay throwing Valkyries and Beasts because they flip some even with hyzer, but I need to get over my dificulty with really giving some annie to the stable stuff.
I play with very helpful pros occasionally but I have this terrible habit of thinking about technique more when i am behind a computer than when i am on the course :p

robj:
Well, you're not alone. I thought discgolf would be easy to learn because I'd done so much freestyle, long range catch and some Ultimate too. I was wrong, even though I could do all sorts of throws with either hand. I had to relearn pretty much everything and I think most players did unless discgolf was their first ever disc sport.
Another tip that worked for me is to go way down in disc weight. 150-160g discs will turn right (or turn over!) easier and you can get a real 'feel' for how that happens.

P.S.
If you can flip a Beast already, you are destined for great distance. :D

All the brand new players I've tried to help have trouble with this (including me).



Ah, the blind leading the blind . . .

There's a lot of value in this though. Many of the more experienced players I've asked for tips can't explain exactly how they do what they do. Or the technique is so second-nature that they leave out important elements when they try to describe it. As newer players, the learning process is still fresh in our minds, so we remember the steps we took to get to a given point. Plus, trying to teach a skill to someone else reinforces it in your own mind - and reveals gaps in your knowledge!

We're really fortunate to have someone like Dave, an expert who has thoroughly dissected the throwing process and will take the time to explain it - again and again - to new players.

We're really fortunate to have someone like Dave, an expert who has thoroughly dissected the throwing process and will take the time to explain it - again and again - to new players.



Amen! It is simply amazing how patient he is too given how often people like me ask him the same stupid questions :DI feel especially fortunate to be able to talk to the such an innovative disc golf design expert, and a former world distance and MTA record holder to boot. We all ought to pitch in a dollar or two and get the guy some kind of plaque recognizing him for excellence.

There are a lot of really good players out there, but surprisingly few that has actually attempted to analyze the throwing mechanics, and even fewer can actually explain their findings to others (of course Dave D is one of the best examples of this rare specimen :) ).

Regarding the anhyzer problems: A very common mistake, especially by people used to throwing lids/old-school-midnight-flyer-era- , or other understable discs, is a tendency to lean the upper body forward. (Which is almost necessary to get enough initial hyzer for that kind of disc.) Another common problem is starting your throw from too low, i.e. at the far point of your reach back your muscle memory tells you to start low at around or below waist height, which does no good when getting a 21st century golf disc to fly straight or in an anhyzer arc.

So I think the key things to focus on for players adapting to modern dg plastic, or simply trying to develop a good anhyzer throw with overstable disc, are:
1) adapt an upright posture -don't bend your upper body forward at the waist .
2) as already mentioned: keep your arm and disc up all through the throw -starting around upper chest/shoulder height is not wrong.

But take care, it's easy to fall in the trap of doing a wider arc swinging motion by not letting your elbow joint bend enough in mid-throw, instead of the better straighter pull where the elbow joint will more or less automatically be almost fully bent before extending into the final pull, when going for anhyzers.

Hope this was to any help for someone... :confused: ;)

Could it be that yer tryin' too hard? I had the same problem with my game. Did great on practice drives. Even better on practice putts. When I got to the course, my game went into places unknown by humankind. I realized that I was too busy thinking about why my game disappeared rather than playing the course. When I adjusted my 'tude, game returned! Go figure.... :p

kingrat tipz (http://www.geocities.com/kingrat6931/)

sorry to disagree, circ_2.
The more you practice, the less luck is involved!

SwePeter, thanks, your advice is so good it makes me wonder if you've been watching me throw :D

That gives me a lot to go on, I can't wait to try it out later today. Thanks again for your help!

Just needed to post here... I went out yesterday (60 degrees in Feb. in Ohio niiiice) and practiced (first time since I hurt myself on New Year's Day). At first, I was throwing just like I had at the end of last year...drivers 200-220', midranges 150', putters <100'. Not really happy with that anymore (you guys are ruining my self-esteem :P) , I started looking at the different parts of my game a little more closely, breaking down my release and such.

After a while of trying to increase my arm speed..take a faster approach, longer reach, longer follow through, cocked wrist, bent elbow etc. basically getting nowhere except a sore shoulder...

I took a throw, maybe 70-75% power...with just a small hop step, just working on trying to add some snap to my disc, throwing my favorite Elite-X X.S. disc (which goes about 200-220 when I'm lucky), I let it rip...it started at about 6 feet high...dead flat...and it started to rise to about 20 feet. After a few seconds, I noticed it had already flown OVER MY HOUSE (250' away from my release point)!!! I'd have to guess it came to rest at about 325-330' just left of my target line.

By far it's the longest throw I've ever had. By about 75'

I did a little more work, couldn't really duplicate that same kind of throw again (I did get it out to 270' again), but I was very happy how straight and accurate my throwing was overall. Can't wait to try things out on a course...

Have you guys to thanks...your tips, advice, and just random discussion is really helping me out :D

The secret to distance is practice. I know guys that use a 9 step run up and put the disc over 400' and I know guys who throw stationary and put the disc over 350'. I use a 5 step X step and put the disc consistantly 360. I know I can throw farther just by increasing my armspeed, but I know that the only way to do that is by lots of practice. It just takes time...be patient!

The best way I've found to get an overall distance, accuracy, consistancy boost is to leave all your discs at home and take nothing but DX Aviars, S Wizards, D Magnets. Force yourself to throw a putter on every single throw. Don't even toutch your drivers or mids. Play this way for a couple days or a couple months. Don't worry about your scores...just throw. When you've had enough, bring back your longer discs. Improvement? I THINK SO!!!!! :cool:

I agree with the putter comment. I tried that once and it did help me.

I am beginning to understand how learning the putters helps the overall game...once I get another chance to go play, that is what I'll do :)

Putters and midranges do not lie. If you have a lack of spin or some other fundamental problem, it will be obvious when throwing a putter. Drivers can correct your problems somewhat and make you think that you are throwing well.

I'm sure I have plenty of fundamental problems :D

I tossed a couple discs in the driveway, and my Skill Shot held onto an XD I threw from about 160' . Woop...time to go pro I guess ;)

I remember when Dave D was first explaining the 'coffee pot' wrist angle way back when in this thread and I remember Discette coming back and saying that it worked really well. I never quite visualized this correctly. The picture from the Swedish website has done wonders for my game. My drives are flying correctly again. Using the Ratt Vinkel also seems to make me pull higher across my chest, which is good. So, I want to give a big thank you to that picture! It has helped my wrist angle and helped me pull across higher resulting in 20-25% better drives.

I find that I am getting more D on the practice field, but in last weeks tourney, I still went back to some of my old habbits. This was not all bad, I just would have liked the greater D. Back to the practice fields for me!!! /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Peter H, your advice on how to transition from throwing old school lids and understable stuff to disc golf drivers has been a huge help-- thank you! I stopped bending at the waist just before the release and I am making sure I keep the disc high and bend my elbow. Wow, what a difference! Not bending is the hardest thing to change because of muscle memory but it is working wonderfully.
Do you have any similar advice for forehand throws? I tend to get the nose up too much and am trying to figure out what I am doing wrong when trying to throw forehand for distance. I can throw putters for short and approach shots well, but I am having trouble with drivers. Do you have tips for transitioning from old school understable lids to drivers when throwing forehands ... and hammers (tomahawks)?

Hey robj,

I read through a number of the replies to jour hyzer problem and I might suggest a slightly different approach. Go back and take a look at Dave D's discussions, and where he says your focus should be. The focus on the throw should be at the hit, and where the disc comes from and at what angle doesn't matter except at the hit. When I first started adding distance to my throws I would start by lining the disc carefully at the back end of my reach-back. That made sure everything was lined up and that the disc came out flat. It was very effective for clean drives and good accuracy. The problem was that I limited out at about a 300 average with my longest throws occasionally hitting 350. The problem is that your focus is behind you and not at the hit where it needs to be. I couldn't break this habit so I changed my approach. I actually bring the disc to a vertical position at my reach-back now (I think Dave would tell you to bring it to a comfortable position) this forces me to focus on my hit and getting the disc in the right position at the hit in my throws. I immediately jumped my average to 350 ft and I am hitting some 380 ft drives. This change caused a disruption in some of my other mechanics so I know I will get better as I go but I can really feel the hit now like I never could before. The other thing is that by having my focus at the hit I am thinking more about where I want the hit to be thus giving me even better accuracy. Finally, by focusing on the hit you will know at what angle your disc is leaving your hand (I consciously choose an angle at the hit). If that angle leaves you with a hyzer then you simply adjust the angle.

It has taken me a year and a half to be able to break down the hit and really know what was happening there (although I worked on many other aspects of my throw first) . If you can do this you will find that you have a level of control over your throws that will astound you.

Do you have any similar advice for forehand throws? I tend to get the nose up too much and am trying to figure out what I am doing wrong when trying to throw forehand for distance. I can throw putters for short and approach shots well, but I am having trouble with drivers. Do you have tips for transitioning from old school understable lids to drivers when throwing forehands ... and hammers (tomahawks)?



Try bringing your release point up. For me, releasing below the waist = huge hyzer, waist level = moderate hyzer, bottom of the ribcage = flat, nipple level = moderate anhyzer. Depending on the disc and the conditions, I stay mostly between the waist and the nipples. The extra hyzer I get from releasing very low would be useful, but it's too hard to keep the nose down. Anything higher than the nipples is a guaranteed turn-'n-burn.

As an exercise, I'd suggest getting some overstable plastic and throwing it hard, with a flat or mild anhyzer release (based on release points above). Concentrate on getting the same wrist action you use when you throw a lid forehand, but hook it up to a good, fast arm motion. You don't have to reach way back or use a lot of muscle, just whip it through nice and quick. Like any aspect of throwing, it'll take plenty of trial and error to find the right balance. Your disc will tell you what you're doing wrong. If you're using too much muscle, too much anhyzer, or not snapping enough, your throws will flip really hard. If you're underthrowing, or getting the nose up too much, you'll have the same problems you've been having.

This, to me, is where the overstable disc is important. Technique purists will screech that you can get the same results with understable plastic if your technique is good. They're probably right, but it'll be much easier to learn the feeling of a good release with an overstable disc. Understable discs are much more sensitive, which creates more variables and makes it harder to isolate any particular element. Dealing with all the variables will distract you from the point, which is to learn the feeling of snapping a disc hard, flat, and cleanly out of your hand.

Once you have that feeling, you can work backwards, incorporating what you already know about throwing lids, etc. forehand, until you've mastered the shot.

Rob, some good advice here from Lyle and boru. Personally my best weapon is the backhand, and I'm sure there are people much better suited than me to give forehand advice. :D

But, basically I think the same goes for forehand as for backhand when going from lids to modern drivers. Don't do the arm swing perpendicular to the ground, nor start too low. Try to get your arm up.

I have had the opportunity to watch Jonas Bengtsson's forehand during many many years (One of my best friends, my regular DDC partner, and IMHO one of the world's top 2-3 forehand throwers.) His style uses a higher swing, with the elbow a bit out from the body, as opposed to the really old school forehand where you tried to keep your elbow really close to your body and the forearm pointing more or less downwards. Granted, his style is extreme, since he has thrown forehand almost exclusively for the last 25 years or so (He is capable of outdriving many top backhanders on the golf course) but maybe this is of some help anyway.

Check out this sequence:
1. Jonas in his X step (http://www.algonet.se/~area46/bilder/people/jbxstepvarnamo2003.jpg) (Yes, forehanders can do an X-step run up too...)
2. this web page (http://www.algonet.se/~area46/svenska/nyheter/n020603.shtml) (just scroll down a bit if you don't need to practise your Swedish ;) ) where I've put a pic of Jonas in his reachback just before planting the left foot.
3. picture taken just after his releasing the disc (http://www.algonet.se/~area46/bilder/people/jbdrivevarnamo.jpg)

If you extrapolate his swing from these you should get a good idea of his form. As for the grip, make sure it's the pad of your finger (i.e. where your fingerprints are) that lies flat against the rim, and not the side of the finger.

As usual, hope this was to some help for someone.... ;)

Wow! Thanks for the pictures! Just as a comparison, here's a picture of yours truly (http://www.jordanstallard.com/images/disc_golf/molokai098.jpg) right around the moment of release. You'll notice I don't get as much of my body behind the disc as Jonas does - if I try, disaster usually strikes. Still, there are some similarities, like a higher swing and more arm extension. I was throwing a Crush that day, which is a little less stable than I like, so I was keeping my motion more compact than usual. I think that throw resulted in a long left turn that never came back. Because of the elevated tee, it went about 330' before grounding out - lucky me!

When you say Jonas is "capable of outdriving many top backhanders," how far is that? Some of my best throws go almost 400', and I'm sure there's the potential for more.

If you have any other pictures of Jonas in action, I'd love to see them. There is a real shortage of good forehand resources on the web. Thanks again!

WOW! Those are some great pics. I wish someone could disect the forehand the way that Dave has the backhand. It would also be nice to see some vids of the throw.

boru, I would say that Jonas' forehand is pretty consistent somewhere in the 360-400 ft range on the golf course (at least where there's space enough for a slight forehand anhyzer), and usually with much better accuracy than me. ;)

I know there are players out there that actually can throw forehands longer than that, but I never cease to be amazed by Jonas' consistency and accuracy. (He has also won a couple of WFDF world championship titles in the "accuracy" event.)

It's great to hear there's a first-rate player out there who bases his game around the forehand. Do you know what discs Jonas throws?

I, too, would be interested in seeing videos.

That's an easy one boru, Jonas keeps a light bag... ;)
Long drives: 10x KC Pro Teebirds
Shorter drives and approaches: DX Shark
Putts and short finesse shots: DX Polecat
(he putts backhanded though...)
His Swedish golf ranking is currently 30th place.

Thanks for the "rattvinkel" and Jonas Bengtsson's forehand pics, peter! It really helped me visualize all of DaveD's tips and help me finally break the 300 foot barrier for my backhand. With some more work and some new plastic (ORC /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif ) I'm pushing 400. :eek:

I recently decided to really work on my forehand, mainly because my turnover and anhyzer shots are so darned unpredictable. The first thing I noticed is that I was really "T-Rexing" my forehand -- keeping my elbow so close to my hip that I looked like a dinosaur. I had to conciously force myself to get my elbow up and extend my arm. Also, the "rattvinkel" applies equally well to the forehand shot: the way I see it, off-axis torque is never good.

I'm wondering if anyone has tips on different forehand discs (esp midranges!), grips, wind-ups/run-ups/x-steps/360's (haha :D) etc. Right now, I'm using a sidearm fan grip and I'm throwing a DX Firebird and KC10X Eagles/CFR Teebird TLs/KC11X TBs. I'm thinking of ordering a Z-Xtreme for Buffumville's Hole 10 (a 200 ft right-to-left-to-right true S curve with a 6 ft wide fairway and 12 ft low ceiling ) but this leaves me without a forehand disc in the 100-200 ft range. What are some extremely overstable midrange/approach discs? Also, any exercise/stretching routines on how to avoid tendonitis would be great -- medical insurance won't cover Tommy John surgery ;)

I have plenty of forehand tips. Don't take these in the same way as Dave's distance secrets though, because my forehand shot is still very much under construction. So here's some stuff I think I think:

Grip - I use a two-finger grip. The pad of my middle finger presses into the rim, with the index finger behind it for support. My thumb is on the flight plate, above my middle finger. This works for my bony little Gollum hands. Another guy I know has big hands and only uses one (index) finger.

Footwork - You really don't need much here. If I'm throwing a driver, I'll do sort of a mirror-image X-step. Sometimes I'll just take one easy step into the throw. It's mostly just to get the rhythm. You can get plenty of power with just your arm, so a big run-up is mostly unnecessary (and when you're ready for one, you'll know).

Discs - There are different opinions here, and they all have some validity. If you're trying to throw far, and you've thrown baseballs, etc., before, you'll probably want something nice and overstable. My current favorite is the Monster. The Speed Demon is a little harder to control, but you can make it do some absolutely sick things. Any other fast, overstable disc will work too. I stick to candy plastic because the extra velocity you get throwing forehand really does a number on softer stuff. The Z-Xtreme is your best choice for shorter drives. Once it takes some abuse, you'll be able to get it out to 300', and it's ultra-consistent. I bought a couple from Jason at Pyramids in MA around New Years. He may still have some. Of course, you can also throw less overstable drivers with a lot of success - it'll be essential if you want a forehand turnover shot. But if all you want is a shot that will consistently go right, overstable is your best bet.

The Z-Buzzz is my favorite forehand midrange. It just comes out of my hand the best. Subtle adjustments in speed, snap, and angle will make it turn left, go straight, or fade right. You'll probably find it to be a bit too much disc for the 100-200' shots though. For those, I'd go with an overstable putter like a Wizard or a Rhyno.

Release - The key here is to make it a short, quick movement. Let the disc rip from your fingertips. You barely need any arm power, especially with a midrange (with an Xtreme or Speed Demon, you'll need some).

Avoiding Injury - This should be easy, depending on your age and condition. First, listen to what your body is telling you. Stop throwing if you feel any weird pain coming on. Second, less is more when it comes to effort. If you're using the kind of arm power you'd need to pitch a baseball, or throw a football 50 yards, you're WAY overdoing it. As for stretching/conditioning, anything that works for backand throwing, or baseball, tennis, etc., should be good. I make sure to stretch out the inside of my forearm. You can do this by holding your arm out in front of you with the inside facing up, and bending your hand down, palm out.

Well, I hope that stuff helps. Good luck!

Hi Boru,

Thanks for the pointers on forehand throws and especially the buzzz -- I had shelved mine in favor of the new Rocs but it does make a superb forehand midrange :D I'm guessing the lack of a bead keeps the release smooth.

I was like a kid in a candy store when I first found Jason's pro shop /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif I'll be sure to look there for the Z-xtreme.

I also found this Innova throwing chart on forehands: http://www.innovadiscs.com/downloads/ForehandDriveChart.pdf

Interesting chart; I'd never seen that before. The grip illustrations are really good, especially because it's so hard to describe a grip. I do some things differently than the illustrated guy on the chart in terms of delivery - I'm pretty sure I can't make my arm bend like the second picture!

I'm not sure why the Buzzz works so well forehand, but I think it has to do with the lack of dome for me. No bead probably also helps.

In Hawaii, our only "pro shop" is a guy who sells discs out of his van. He rarely has more than 50 in stock. Otherwise, we can order online or try Sports Authority . . . which gets a handful of discs (like 5) every few months! So I spent at least an hour browsing Jason's store when I played at Pyramids. I was absolutely floored by the selection, and he's not a price-gouger either. I got my Z Xtremes for $15 each, a CE Eagle for $15, and an X Wasp for $12!

If you're going to throw a lot of forehand, a Z Xtreme is a great investment, assuming you don't lose it. I got my first one back in July, and it's seen heavy action since then. Few drivers even last that long, but despite taking some decent punishment, it's just gotten better and better. I've gotten it to the point where it actually has some glide, but it still retains the incredible overstability I bought it for. I haven't even had to break out a backup yet!

Yeah, that reachback position looks kinda painful. The thing to note is the tip to lift your right heel, it helps alot! Also, the new Orc flies great sidearm!

I know shipping costs from the mainland must be pretty high, but Jason has a new online shop:
http://www.marshallstreetdiscgolf.com
I'm just a satisfied customer and don't have anything to do with his store :D(the descriptions alone are worth checking out)

Wow! That site is a riot! It's definitely worth visiting for the descriptions alone. I think this gem, about the DX Aviar, says it all:

There must be a dozen putters based on the Aviar mold, and this is the very first. If you can't putt with this disc you simply can't putt. Or the wind just kicked up, or you're hungover, or your wife just left you ... BECAUSE YOU CAN'T PUTT. Wow, talk about a vicious circle. Hey, sometimes you've got to lay up from 15 feet and bear down on the two-footer. Of COURSE that's shameful but some of us are simply too old for Ultimate. Hey, here's a strange one: Ever since I gave up drinking I feel like I'm on drugs. Please someone come over and cut off my head.

Priceless.

Try using your index finger only, single finger for your forehand drives. I played with a guy & he crushed his forehand, asked the secret he said don't use 2 fingers just one. Believe me it adds distance instantly to a forehand shot... I love CE FX firebirds and Z xtremes for my forehand, it is the most accurate shot in my bag for shots between 200-300 ft...

Hmm . . . I haven't tried a one-finger grip in a while. Maybe I should give it another shot.

The forehand is the ONLY shot in my bag for anything over 300 feet. I really like my 175g Monster for distance. The Spirit is also showing a lot of potential.

Oops, Market Street say the Champion Whippet is Innova's most overstable disc. I think they need to get their hands on some CFR Vipers.

When I first got into disc golf, I used a one-finger forehand throw..

Just "grip" the inner rim of the disc with your entire index finger and rest your thumb on top/upper rim of the disc, your thumb/pointer should almost make a backwards "C". (if your shooting right handed)

I was able to throw about 300 when I had first started forehand, I haven't checked recently but i'm sure it's gotten even better. The "trick" is a quick snap of the wrist and a good follow through to create a clean, predictable spin

I now have a upper hand on everyone having a very well-developed forehand (and backhand). I wouldn't throw forehand anyother way

I looked at our side arm throwing chart and I noticed that I should have noted to lead with the elbow and not throw over the elbow which puts a lot of strain on the rotator cuff. In other words, your elbow should be in front of you when you extend your lower arm into the snap. If it is to the side, you will stress your rotator cuff. This requires bending to the right to throw level, but makes rollers easy. This is very similar to the backhand where you lead with your elbow too.

I'll try the one-finger grip this weekend. Right now, I pretty much do the same thing you describe, but with two fingers.

To me, the trick is to pull through very smooth and relaxed until you feel the disc suddenly get heavy against the pad of your finger. When you feel that build-up of weight, pull hard. I guess it's the same "grip it and rip it" principle they talk about for throwing backhand, only I can't make it happen nearly as well backhand.

I know this is the wrong thread, but I have to tell somebody.
Today (yesterday, March 30th), I got my first ACE!!!!!!!!!!!
12th hole at Oak Grove, the first course in the world. I turned 59 today and hit my first ace!!!! I've only been playing disc golf for 6 months so it was a big deal for me. Plus, it was my birthday! Plus, I love this sport and I never expected to hit an ace so soon in my development.
Dead straight shot aimed a bit right of the pin with a 150g Champion JK Valkyrie, slight left fade at the end of the flight as always, and, CHING!

Thanks for listening!
Tequila all around. :cool:

Congrats & happy b-day :D