* This puts you in the elbow bend postion even if you start in the reach back postion. *

It's generally irrelevant that both use a bent arm from midpoint on.

There are several important features that seperate the typical reach back from the typical bent arm start.

One, the disc in the reach back is going in a straight line all the way to release and is building up momentum all the way that doesn't have to be redirected one way or the other for the entire throw. The bent arm start requires the player to redirect the momentum of the disc during the throw, and thru out the throw.

The typical bend arm start also has the grip on the outside edge wrist cocked at midpoint, which also adds some more complexity to the finish process necessary to get to a good consistant release point with the grip crossing the leading edge and arm fully extended at the same time.

Sure, there are some folks (like Dave Dunipace, Ruth Steele, and your friend John) who apparently can control all of this and do it reasonably well much of the time. Kudos for them...

Historically, I started out (1970s) as a roller player with very poor flying skills. I used the full bent arm technique with a BH roller using Moonlighter 80 mold discs weighing up to 215 gms. (Actually, the thumber roller was my best shot in my early years).

As I forced myself to play tighter, more curved and longer flyer courses, and as discs changed, my BH technique shifted to the reach back. It provides me with better distance, repeatable accuracy and very good control of the flight plane -- all of which are necessary when facing the full diversity of challenges one might face on challenging technical courses (long and short).

While I doubt few of today's players will go thru the entire evolution of throwing techniques as some of today's older pros, it appears the majority of new higher end players end up using somewhat similar reach back techniques.

As a GMP, I can't recall anyone with a bent arm technique ever beating me, but then that doesn't happen too often anyway. Perhaps I should get out more... Or perhaps my memory is suffering early alzhiemers?

* Johnny starts with a bent elbow. *

There are exceptions to every rule.

There are also more top reachers than bent armers.

The diversity of techniques used to accomplish the intended goal is part of what makes any sport fun to watch. It would be boring if everyone were the same.

I'm confused...first you say the most important thing is "the hit" then you say it's beer. Which one is it, the hit or beer?

My theory is that as more brain cells are killed by the alcohol in the beer, you think less about "the hit" and thus it comes more naturally. That's probably the root of my problem since I never drink beer on the course. I'll have to give it a try. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

Hit the course, hit your shots, if that doesn't do it, hit the Disc Golf Doctor Attitude Adjuster. (Always drink and drive responsibly. YMMV. Must be over 40 and comply with all state and local laws.) /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

Bill(y) Ragan,
I don't know if you remember me, but I remember you from the old days, playing ultimate and freestyling. Did you live in Athens and play for UGA? I was the kid from Augusta. That was a long time ago. You're just now getting into golf?

What does "YMMV" mean?

Your Mileage May Vary?

Don't forget that the bent elbow technique also works with consuming beer.

Keep the arm close to the body.
Make sure the wrist is locked in a position that keeps the bottle on a vertical plane.
Use the power grip as the "flip the bird grip" could cause problems with fellow players.
There is no need for a 3 step aproach, however a 2 step works well when practicing in country western bars.
Be smooth and fluid.
The follow through is very important as to not injure yourself or anyone else for that matter after the hit.

And remember to practice. This is not a delivery for mere amatuers. Juniors should never try it.

Practice, practice, practice. YMMV does literally mean "your mileage may vary", but on the chat board it means about the same as IMO or your results may differ. Juliana taught me that one./msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif

Fred, you say, "I can't recall anyone with a bent arm technique ever beating me, but then that doesn't happen too often anyway." How many quality opponents have you played that use the bent arm technique? Just because no one using the bent arm technique has beat you doesn't mean it doesn't work. With the straight reach back my distance maxed out at around 360, with a consistant 320. With the bent elbow technique, I max out(for now, I am still working on it) at around 400, with a consistant 360. I don't think that is a coincidence.

...using 'wyzer is only a matter of preference.

Dan,
It's a small world. Athens, Ga what a place. Seven years of college, frisbee and lots of fun. Didn't play much disc for a while with work and a family. I always had a love for just throwning a frisbee and watching it fly, now it's turning into a passion to play golf (as much as two kids, a wife and work leave-the real important things). Hope to see you at a tournament. I bet you're not a kid any more.

Jedidiah- This new found distance could also be due to increased practice in general or perhaps you just naturally made a step up in skill. I'm not familiar with your routine but I wouldn't give the bent arm all the credit just yet.

A year or two ago I went out in the spring, after not playing at all during the winter, and threw at least 50 - 70 feet further than what I had the previous fall. I accepted this added distance with a wink and a smile but didn't give any credit to sitting on my arse all winter.

Always try new ways of throwing. Practicing any type of throw (well almost any) will add distance in the long run

Quoting Jed to Fred:
["Fred, you say, "I can't recall anyone with a bent arm technique ever beating me, but then that doesn't happen too often anyway." How many quality opponents have you played that use the bent arm technique? Just because no one using the bent arm technique has beat you doesn't mean it doesn't work."]

Jed- great logic! I agree with your very sound thinking.

Fred, since you've said you don't play many tournaments, how many top level players have you played who use the bent arm technique?

We, at least in the midwest, had a bitterly cold winter in '00-'01. That was the first time in the 4 & 1/2 years (as of now) that I took over a month off from playing. My first round back, I was -5 after 8 holes on a difficult course (Rosedale in KC, set medium long). Now believe me, I was on cloud 9 even though I finished -3 (the back nine will kill you... quickly and painfully). I was operating from an unconcious level as I watched muscle memory work its charm. Everything felt smooth and "fluid" - drives, ups, putts etc...

Of course it took 8-10 more rounds/days to feel that consistent, though fleeting, feeling of confidence that I call "fluid". The noises, thoughts, annoyances are all there, but they do not register on a conscious level. They were easily discarded- "The Zone"!!! This is a place I would like to visit more often, as would we all.

But, you know what?? If it requires me to take a month off to experience "fluidity", then I would rather struggle through 5 rounds a week with momentary relapses of fluidity and covet every shot; whether it's a parked drive or OB in a tree.

I would like to think that we've all had our moments. I haven't kicked my bag or freaked out in a long time. I cherish my DG sanctuary time. The mental game is probably the most challenging "course" you'll play.

Once that disc leaves your hand... there ain't a gosh dern thing you can do about it...(Long pause) except pray... and I pray a lot.

I guess geometry proofs are good for logic if nothing else. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

Switching to the bent arm technique may not have been the difference, but I know one thing. After switching, I added 50 feet in distance.

* "I can't recall anyone with a bent arm technique ever beating me, but then that doesn't happen too often anyway." How many quality opponents have you played that use the bent arm technique? *

If the Posy pictures are any indication, the bent arm folks are out numbered 4 to 1 by reach back players.

In the competition I was in last year, everyone in the top 4 of the final rounds (as a GMP, I played down to either Masters or Open) that I played with used the reach back technique. There seemed to be plenty of bent arm folks in the preliminary rounds. Seems to be a trend there somewhere... I finished 1 or 2.

Back in the 80s, I held or shared every course record of the 4 object courses at Lower Woodland Park in Seattle. Lowell Shields, who I shared some of these the records with, is a reach back guy. Back then there were plenty of players using bent arm. To some extent, I copied his reach back technique as I started out a thumber roller and backhander using the bent arm.

I really think my reach back technique was beat into my brain while playing time plus strokes rounds on one of Woodlands par 4 courses, which I played for several years on a daily basis. When you are running for time plus strokes, you end up lining yourself up behind the disc, in line with the target, about 20 yards back and then reaching back and throwing when you reach your disc. You can't afford to be offline. It costs you time PLUS strokes...

* Just because no one using the bent arm technique has beat you doesn't mean it doesn't work. *

I'm not saying the bent arm doesn't work. It just doesn't work as well in DG. Few, if any, champs use it. Go figures...

Given this thread's ongoing debate on this issue, I was somewhat amused today to run into an old timer regional DGer at Lake Stevens who turned out to be a bent arm guy. His best at LS was minus 2. My average is minus 4. Course record minus 9 (mine). Today, I was minus 6, he was 2 over. John, another 'pro' (reach back) was minus 2.

This twosome is part of a curious gaggle of regional DGers who run around and try to win key chain bobbles from everyone they play with. They got tired of playing for money from each other, which they'd then blow at some local pub. So they decided to play for something of value that everyone cared for -- key chain bobbles.

Their bobble ring had nail clippers, mirrors, collectable logos, minis, swiss army knifes, etc. I opted not to be part of the ring deal. John was already complaining about carrying this 2 pound ring around... Like I want to end up owning some bucket of keys.

Anyway, John wasn't dumb. He gave his girl friend an 18 stroke handicap. She beat him by a stroke. So now she owns the ring. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

She was attempting to learn a backhand. As a softball player, the thumb hook was a natural to her and was her regular shot. It was interesting to see her trying to learn the a backhand -- using the bent arm technique. She was all over the place. It would have been interesting to see her play my 11 year old son who is learning the reach back, but hasn't figured out the shoulder body turn just yet.

Curiously, I watched John's technique. He was a reach back guy with a power grip, thumb on the rim. I figured it best not to fool around with trying to suggest technique to him to teach his girl friend. Obviously, there was something going on there.

It did bring to mind how I've got emails from folks (like a lady DGer) who thanked me for the modified grip suggestion. She mentioned how it allowed her to rise to the next plateau as she was able to get the reach back to work after being totally frustrated with the power grip/bent arm. She was throwing further and much more accurately. Go figure...

To each their own.

If you are getting further with the bent arm, fine. Go with it... and notice how often you end up in the top 4some with other bent armers...

Distance AND accuracy is the name of the game...

Fred, I understand that you and others have good success with the straight reach back technique, but for some of us, it just doesn't give the disc enough spin. Maybe you have figured out some other way to get the z's on it, I know Barry Shultz uses the straight reach back and sends it into the next county, but I can't. With the straight reach back, for me anyway, the disc rockets out of my hand with super high velocity, flies about 5 seconds, and falls off to the left when it still has lots of velocity. But if I add a little of Dave's pre-bent elbow technique, the increase in spin makes the disc fly straight until it's done, and yes, it flies a lot farther. I found that out the first day I tried it. Lots of people use the straight reach back with success but the real freaks that's I've seen in person all use some sort of pre-bent elbow to get the z's on it.

The two techniques can be combined anyway. You prebend your elbow, reach all the way back until the elbow is not even bent anymore, and then when you start to throw you set the elbow again up high. Bingo, you are doing it both ways. That's what Brinster does.

jedidiah, I appreciate the support, but the pre-bent elbow technique isn't for everyone. As I said before, some people will never get it. Habits and patterns are tough things to break, once they're established, and that goes for thinking patterns too. It took me a long while to teach Johnny and Geoff Lissaman to pull through the end of the snap when they drive. I had to show them each other's throw next to the long distance throwers. Only then, when they could see the difference, did they believe. It still took a long time for them to begin to incorporate it into their game. This is very understandable as they were already very successful in all other facets of disc golf, including accuracy and didn't want to jeopardize that. Juliana is another case. She is very successful now. For her to incorporate any new techniques seems to be a gamble. The Winnicrew is a little different. Especially the younger two. They are young enough to be flexible in their thinking, so they are going to allow themselves to benefit from improvements in their technique. The two younger Winnies don't need the pre bent elbow as they are very flexible and very strong. Todd could use it. He is a perfect candidate for it. He is smaller, not as flexible, but still very strong. If he were to incorporate it into his throw, he would definitely get better results on an already pretty good drive. Tita Ugalde is probably the best example of the benefit of the technique. She is the current two time Womens Pro Masters World Champion. She is over forty, short, and overweight. When we play at La Mirada, she literally stops traffic the way that Juliana does; she out drives most of the men at the park. It works very well for girls as they tend to be slower than guys, it works great for old guys like me who have slowed down, have back problems, are not as flexible, etc. It doesn't work at all for anyone who doesn't get it. That's okay. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

* but for some of us, it just doesn't give the disc enough spin. Maybe you have figured out some other way to get the z's on it, *

There's no big secret. I dumped the power grip in favor of the flip the bird grip.

Where you've got to consciously uncock your wrist with the power grip to get spin (or adopt the bent arm that automates this process), the disc **** isn't a problem with a modified power grip and the reach back with a straight delivery to release. The disc fully cocks at the end of the full extension (just before release) and then snaps out of your hand with very high spin as your relaxed wrist unsnaps.

Imparting spin to the disc with this technique isn't a conscious process as it is with the bent arm/power grip.

The problem for those who are used to consciously giving the disc spin with a power grip that locks up your wrist muscles is to learn to relax the wrist with the modified power grip and let the reach back technique do the rest for you. Some can do it, some can't.

* With the straight reach back, for me anyway, the disc rockets out of my hand with super high velocity, flies about 5 seconds, and falls off to the left when it still has lots of velocity. *

Too much tail would be an indication of too much spin, not too little. With higher spin a disc will tail off more, not less. Perhaps your need is to look into a reverse annie, or different (less stable and/or lighter) disc choice or different grip.

I've mentioned that using the fan grip seems to provide less spin than my favored Bird grip. The fan doesn't allow the same degree of wrist flex, hence slightly less spin. The result with the fan's slightly lower spin is a disc that tails off with the higher spin Bird grip may tend to fly straighter with the Fan grip. Dave says that the distance guys typically use the fan, perhaps for the slightly less spin it provides than other modified power grips.

Disc weight may also be a factor. The distance record is also set with an 168 XS, which isn't a particularly overstable disc. It's also lighter than the 170s that many folks throw. My 167 XS doesn't tail off notably. A 172 XS tails off for me without much 'float'. I throw a 159 Valkyrie because it flies almost straight and far. My 170 V flew like a left turning brick. I've got a 127 gm Z1 that flies nice and straight AND easy at 100 yds. See a trend?

* The two techniques can be combined anyway. You prebend your elbow, reach all the way back until the elbow is not even bent anymore, and then when you start to throw you set the elbow again up high. *

It's no longer the prebent elbow technique at this point -- it's a variant of the reach back that perhaps uses a precocked wrist in a power grip. The precocked reach back variant is a reasonable solution for those that use a power grip who haven't fully figured out how to use a modified power grip with its relaxed wrist, or who have chosen to use a precocked power grip for one reason or another.

I have no problem with snap using the bent elbow technique. For my long distance drives I use a 3 finger grip. Going back to the bent elbow vs reach back, most people don't use the elbow method. If 25 people out of a field of 100 use the elbow back method, you would expect to only see only 1 person in the final 4-some. It is simple statistics. Most new players are taught to reach straight back as far as you can. That is how I originaly learned. But the reason you don't see more elbow back is that when new players are helped out by players at their course, they are taught the straight reach back. If the new players keep learning the reach back, then you will not have any inflow of people using the elbow back. In the seven months since I have started playing, I have gone from 160 feet at the start, to 400 feet. The latest 50 feet of distance came with the elbow back technique. The previous 350 came from improving the rest of my technique. The elbow back has just taken my past the plateau I had reached. If changing my technique caused the other facets of the form to get better, than great. It just might do the same thing for someone else. Who can say it won't?

Fred, I think increasing the spin makes it fly straighter because of gyroscopic stability. So, even as the disc loses velocity is doesn't go nose-up as soon. Nose up is what causes tail off.

Maybe increased spin would cause it to tail off faster if it goes nose up, but the increased spin prevents it from going nose up in the first place!

Dave, you mentioned flexibility. As an older guy with very little flexibility (never in my life have I been able to touch my toes) can you (or anybody else) recomend any ways to increase flexiblity? I'd especially like something that I can see, so either videos that I can buy or websites with pictures are best for me.

Lowe, I would definitely recommend yoga. There are several programs on television and I'm pretty sure you can buy videos. Richard Hittleman is one that comes to mind immediately.

Why don't all of you distance freaks try getting more speed off the hand than worrying about spin. Legs, hips, back and shoulders use all of these to create max speed, and spin will take care of itself. Also being an avid freestyler I can put tons of spin on a disc and make it go nowhere, conversely you can't put tons of speed on a disc without spin. Proving my point beyond a shadow of doubt, go try it.

I know this is not the thread but seeing how the two people that have the most to do with the disc in question have just posted I see no harm... Dave what the heck did you guys do to my KC EAGLE... I got some of the "new mold" KC EAGLES yesterday and although I have not thrown them I can tell they are not the same disc... The lip is seems to be a TL or even a kc teebird not a KC eagle. If I wanted a TL or any other disc I would have bought that disc, why are you taking my favorite disc and changing it... I can understand CE and DX and Special addition, but why are you taking one of the best selling disc and best flying disc and changing it... I'm not trying to whine too much, but it seems everydisc that you come out with that I like you either stop making it or change it one way or the other...

Pepper, I defer to DD on that one. Most of the high tech discs these days are fairly similar anyways. DD has been tweaking molds for about 20 years and thats why you have something like a KC eagle instead of some 141gm catch disc to play with now. Be appreciative of what you have now when I started I played with one coupe for three months until another purchaseable disc was available. Ever heard of the "coupe"?

I've heard of it, never seen one. Thanks for responding to my question. Believe me, I love all the work Dave does and appriciate it, I just appriciate the old mold KC Eagle a little too much..;-) I will give the new one a try, I may even like it better, but you always want to go with what you know...

It would be interesting to read Dave's response. We should defenitely appreciate the experimentation and tweaking, its evolution baby! I do think its unusual that Innova changes the critters they already have like the eagle and valk rather than introducing new critters, or variants of them like CE or SE. Is there anything new or interesting that Innova is working on?

I want to throw with more speed!! I was playing with some pros this week end and even though they only outdrove me by 30-50 ft or so, their speed and level flight path was amazing. The way the disc just shot out of their hand made me realize that I am not getting a good snap at all. If I post videos of my throw on the web could you guys tell me what I'm doing wrong?
Also, my shoulder/hip/arm coordination is terrible. I've been studying Theo's vids (is it just me or do the Jarvis twins have awesome form?), but have been unable to tell the progression of the throw (the actual foreward motion). Is the throw initiated by turning the hips, then shoulders, then arm. Or is it hips and elbow followed by shoulder turn and forearm motion or just some other combination?
thanks for the input,
-jv

Justin: hips, shoulders, forearm (elbow)

A hec of a golfer told me that he practiced with a golf/bath towel. The golf towel is the way to start, its the smallest and lighest. With the towel you can achieve a grip very similar to they way you would hold your drive. Go outside, in the garage, or anywhere you have enough room. With the towel, go through the motions of your drive. The towel will basically behave like a drive, you can tell when you drove too high/low and side to side. If you try it a few times, you'll see the how you can snap the towel. In my opinion this motion is very similar to a good long drive. As your form and hand speed improve try larger and heavier towels. If your snaping a big bath towel, you won't be disappointed when you take to the course! I bet Climo, Stokely, and Voight, could snap a kingsize bedsheet(now that would require some seriously good form, and massive amounts of handspeed).

Take this for what its worth, not much coming from me, but give it a try.
Chris

Pepper, sorry I thought I already posted. If we used the L Eagle on KC's, we screwed up. It could have happened, but it was not intentional.

Has anyone else tried practicing with a towel as I described? DD, KC, anybody?

Thanks, I guess I have 13 L KC Eagles, I will learn to use them or trade them off...

Everybody must be flinging towels around, works doesn't it.

THE COUPE ROCKS!

What would you compare it to?

A slightly thinner aviar type of disc.

Towels, yes. Not like rattailing someone though.

Sorry about my persistence, wanted some feedback from more acomplished golfers on the subject. This discussion board rocks.

The Bullet was a great distance disc. It's to bad they made it illegal. Does anyone remember this disc, if so how can I get one for the collection?

I've never thrown one, but their small diameter kept the disc from getting PDGA Approval. I'm pretty sure the guys at DISC GOLF WORLD have them.
go to discgolfworld.com or call them at 1-888-237-6884.

Is that you Craig Noputtinsavage? If I'm right just say yes.

OK, I think I might have found my problem.
I noticed that I hardly use my shoulders at all. Sure I rotate them to get the right release, but I throw mostly with my arm and then let my arm pull my shoulder around. To practice using my shoulder, I let my arm hang almost limp and just rotated my hips and shoulders without actively moving my arm. I threw it just as far or further as when I threw primarily with my arm (but threw it in a high anhyser as my arm stayed strait)!!!!! I tried to incorperate the arm into the shoulder turn throw but was unable to do so. It just seemed as if my body was moving too fast and that I could not actively thrust my elbow foreward.
Any advise on how to practice using both the shoulder and the arm?
thanks so much for the advise,
-jv

KC....yeah That's him!

Yes Ken it's me. That is the nickname i have earned the hard way. I was in your neck of the woods not to long ago' but you were going to Miami for a tourney. Next time I will call ahead.

* Fred, I think increasing the spin makes it fly straighter because of gyroscopic stability. *

A flying disc is a gyroscope on the move, with all sorts of dynamic aerodynamic and centrifugal effects at work. Aka, there are lots of factors at work as a disc flight slows relative to disc spin, which slows, but not as fast as disc speed.

If disc spin is high relative to disc speed (as happens towards the end of the flight), the air that is stuck spinning on the disc surface will have an additive effect to whatever aerodynamic effect causes the natural tailing off of a disc as it's flight slows. The higher the spin, the more the additive effect, within limits...

With less spin, this tailing off effect is minimized, so long as there is enough spin to keep the disc flying flat.

It's sort of like how you don't want to have too much spin to a putt, just enough to keep it flying flat. Add more spin, and you get more tailing off.

Dave- That grip you said was the worst you have ever seen is exactly the grip I had been using for years. I have since moved my thumb more towards the center of the disc. I am now in the process of trying to get back my accuracy with the new grip. The new grip doesn't seem to add the distance as much as slowing down the run-up and increasing my arm speed only after the reach back. I used to figure if you reached back quick you could get more snap. But I now believe that the slow reach back makes the forward accelation more focused.

I think I want to take a larger step at the end. I noticed all the examples on the video, everyone has taken a verrry long step. What is your thinking on how this would add distance?

Suzette, to be clear, it's not the power grip that is bad, it's the depictation. The thumb position, as you said, was bad, but also the finger and wrist position were about as bad as you could do it. For the fingers to be lined up correctly, the first knuckle of the index finger should be closer in line to the second knuckle of the middle finger than to the first, and so on down to the pinkie. This way the finger pads all line up with the crease in the palm. There should be some space between the index and middle finger. Then by holding the wrist down, the disc can be in line with the forearm. For acceleration, the pattern is always: step, hips, shoulders, then elbow, wrist, fingers, shoulder pull, bang. As for the last step: I wouldn't take a very large step if I were you. Those guys are exceptional athletes. Very strong and flexible. They can afford to do things inefficiently and get away with it. You and I cannot. If your drive step to your plant is too long, you will not be able to get your weight over your plant foot like Kenny and Cam do and then pivot and follow through down field. You would have to do more like Steve Rico who is compensating by leaning right, rolling his ankle, and following with a twist and arm position that is not possible for me. Barry has an in-between style. His last step is slightly too long for him to get completely over his plant foot, but he is compensating by leaning right. He is still able to pivot forward and take stress off his knee, but he is not lined up. I have seen Barry do it right when he threw a Roc off tee 5 at USDGC, so I am guessing his style varies. I recently had a training session with Avery Jenkins about this very thing. He was taking too long a step, jamming his plant foot, and was preventing a level, efficient shot. He is so strong he was able to muscle the shot anyway ala Steve Rico, but when we corrected his shot, it came out level, straight, and scarey fast. The moral of the story is: just because Avery and these other guys are throwing real far, it doesn't mean they're doing it in the most efficient manner.

No Dave, I think the moral of the story is just because Avery and these other guys are throwing real far, doesn't mean I ever can!

I was thinking by taking a bigger step I might be able to get some more lower body strength into the throw. Maybe I should do more push-ups and build my upper body strength!!

To get more lower body strength into a throw, wouldn't you want more knee bend? I know speed skating and throwing a disc are different, but bending your knees allows the power to come from your lower body. Would this apply to disc golf as well?

testing....testing...1...2....3...

is this thing on?

/msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif

Ford

SWEET! It works

Ford

Thanks for the idea Candyman!

Suzette

Suzette, yes you can get more power into the front side of the hit. But it won't do you much good if you can't finish properly. If instead, you concentrate on getting the most out of the energy you are already putting into the throw, you will easily get 50 or more feet of distance. Acceleration into the hit and power pulling out with your center of gravity over your plant foot, is the easiest on your body and the most efficient.

* I used to figure if you reached back quick you could get more snap. But I now believe that the slow reach back makes the forward accelation more focused. *

The slower reach back allows you to get the various other parts of your body in proper position for full execution of the throw.

Aka, weight on the back foot, hips and shoulders properly turned and the opposing arm extended in the opposite direction towards the target to one degree or another.

If you do the reach back too fast, you typically end up shorting one part or another of this process. Power and accuracy suffer, sometimes markedly.

Beware, that as often as you practice to perfect any drive technique, that on the 1st tee in a competition setting, nerves may take over and you'll tank the drive because you've lost track of the proper and practiced speed of execution.

If you condition yourself to have a full relaxed path to the reach back, it's easier to prevent these sort of bubers...

As for the power grip, it's clear from other's posting that the power grip picture I provided looks a lot like theirs. It may be as Dave says, a terrible version of the power grip. Perhaps that's why I don't use it often, and so many others seem to have trouble and concerns over their power grip. Go figure...

Minimally, it seems there is plenty of room for more fine tuning of the definition of a proper power grip. Perhaps I'll get a chance to fool around with the power grip a bit more at the practice field tommorrow and see if I can make sense of Dave's suggestions for the power grip and update my grip pictures accordingly.

Ken Climo, if you say it's impossible to put tons of speed on a disc without giving it spin, you haven't seen me throw. It's a pity to see a disc hit the dirt at 70 MPH on the side of the disc that doesn't roll.

Morgan, what makes you think your disc doesn't have much spin at high speed? I agree with Kenny on this. You can add spin up to a certain velocity, but after that, I was told by some pretty smart scientists, that spin is directly related to speed. If the disc is slipping out, you won't get as much spin, but you won't get as much speed either. It could be an illusion. Bamba Rico's putt doesn't appear to have any spin and yet it does travel pretty fast. If true, a new phenomenon.

I'm just thinking there must be a reason why, when I do the "straight reach back," it goes so fast and still fades left way too early, even if I give it anhyzer, but then when I change to the "bent elbow" technique with the elbow up high and the wrist cocked way down, it goes farther even though the velocity is lower (it doesn't fade until it's done). I just guessed it's because it has more spin that way. But maybe it's got more to do with the nose being down that way.

Morgan, it is the nose up/down that affects fade along with speed. A nose down shot will fade later and less. A nose up shot will fade earlier and more. Nose up shots slow down quicker too. Some of the smarter pros like Kenny and Lissaman know about this efffect and use it to their advantage.

Discette /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif I'm glad I could help! There are a few guys that I play with that are always amazed by the amount of CE plastic I have in my bag. It looks intimidating, and that's just about all it does is look intimidating. I throw a lot of CE because, unlike most Disc Golfers I hit nearly everything on the course and I got tired of buying new discs every other week! /msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif

I'm also kind of a Deadhead, so Candyman serves a dual purpose/msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

Ford

Now THAT explains it. When you use the bent-elbow technique with your elbow up, your arm is at the level of your ear, so the disc is nose down. With the straight arm reachback, the disc is nipple level or lower. Nose up, early fade.

GOT IT!!!

* when I do the "straight reach back," it goes so fast and still fades left way too early, even if I give it anhyzer, *

I'll second Dave's comment about nose down. With a reachback at high speed and high spin (which I seem to get with the reachback with a Bird grip), you've described how my CE & Z Valk, Firebird, Xtra, X2, and Reaper discs fly if I fly them hard and flat. This doesn't seem to happen so much with new Lightning HiTest series (except the Z1). I have to correct this by aiming nose down. For my 166 Firebird, this is about 3 yds into the ground at 100 yards, about 10 yards right of the target. The result is a nice helix shot that hardly gets more than 8 feet off the ground, if that.

With the reachback technique with a grip that give you a full wrist flex (for me that's the bird grip, it might be different with others depending upon individual body characteristics), all (or virtually) all of the spin is added at just before release and the rate of spin (as measured by the speed of the outer edge in feet per second) is higher than the disc speed. It's somewhat dependent upon how much wrist flex you get. More flex, more spin; slightly less flex -- slightly less spin. As mentioned previously, for me, the fan grip allows for less flex and less spin, hence less tailing off on long drives.

The bent arm technique with a full power grip has a curious feature that the spin imparted by the technique is somewhat closely related to the speed of the throw. This is due to the fact that the spin of the disc starts to be given to the disc at the midpoint, with the grip on the outside of the disc rather than the leading edge (as with the reach back). The uncoiling of the grip over the next half of the throw, gives the disc much of (if not all of) it's spin. And that spin (as measured in feet per second of on the outer edge of the rotating disc) is roughly related to the speed of the disc in flight (in feet per second).

BTW, this is what makes the bent arm technique a very good technique for the BH roller. When the disc hits the ground, the disc speed of the outer edge is roughly identical to speed of the disc flight (in feet per second) so there isn't a lot of slippage or wasted energy as the disc hits the ground starts to roll.

This can be a problem with using the reachback with BH rollers. For one, the higher spin rate can add a notch more stability to the disc, which makes it harder to turn over to a good roller. If you do manage to turn the disc over properly, if it hits the ground with a higher spin rate, it's more likely to shoot off in a different line to that which it was flying because of the physics of external forces on a rapidly spinning object. Usually, this is undesirable.

*... I hardly use my shoulders at all. Sure I rotate them to get the right release, but I throw mostly with my arm and then let my arm pull my shoulder around. *

You've got the same problem as my son. He won't listen to me (but then he's only 11 and it's likely to get worse as he becomes a teen). I figure he'll figure it out on his own from watching me, beside, I'm not sure I like the idea of him beating me just yet (at least not without giving him a huge handicap)...

My suggestion is to walk before you run. Aka, work on your midrange approach before your drive and work up from there. Take it to the practice field.

I like placing my bag at the center circle of a soccer field and aim to hit the bag from various points on the goal line (55 yds) and get everything in the circle.

Try a 3/4 reachback without moving your feet, feet about 2 or 3 feet apart. Your left arm will end up at right angles to target at 3/4 reachback. A line from toe to toe goes to the target. This should take your vision away from the target at the reachback. It may be a little exaggerated for the distance and require you to slow the throw a bit, but that's ok -- it's only on the practice field.

It takes a bit of time and practice to get used to the feature of losing sight of the target at the full reachback. All good BH drive techniques, including the bent arm, require it to one degree or another. Your feet position is used at the guide to the target, not your vision.

After a round or two of 10 discs, move the bag to 75 yds and go to a full reachback -- no feet movement. The full reachback should include a full waist turn and full shoulder turn, left arm almost pointing at the target in direct opposition to the reachback arm. Again, this is probably exaggerated for the distance, but that's ok. It's only practice field stuff, not pressure packed DG. Bubers are just bubers not bogeys...

Then after a few rounds, add a few steps to the process and work on getting your drives towards and then perhaps into the soccer goals.

Don't expect miracles over night. It takes a couple weeks of practice field work or more to get it all together.

BTW, for those who might be looking for another way to visualize the bent arm technique, in many respects, it's a high speed power version of the freestyle throw where you end up rolling the disc off the end of the hand, either passing up to yourself, or someone else nearby for an arm roll.

The speed of the disc outer edge is the basically same speed as the throw.

"You've got the same problem as my son. He won't listen to me (but then he's only 11 and it's likely to get worse as he becomes a teen)". It will Fred./msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

Thanks Fred,
I'll try this, but I think the problems stems from my avid ultimate career (GO orEGOn). Since I learned how to throw using a ultra-star and still use the 175 at least as much as the golf disc, I am used to using a more arm based throw. Since ultimate throws are mostly shorter than DG pulls, when I try shorter shots I tend to use more arm and less shoulder (trying to incorporate shoulder turn has wreaked havoc with my mid ranges). And to not mess up my ultimate game (which is a major focus right now as we are trying to improve on a 3rd place finish at Nationals last year), it would be nice to keep practing DG at full speed.
-jv

"on the side of the disc that doesn't roll" Morgan, that would be called the top or bottom of the disc seeing as all sides are capable of rolling.

KC, can you teach me to throw far?

Craig I'm going to go back to one of my lessons about throwing far.

To maximize distance throw downhill and down wind for extra distance!

Throwing up hill and into head wind will cause you to not be able to throw as far.

Also I have been experimenting with a new solution that gives you extra gripping ability. First of all drink alout of liquids, so much that you have to relieve yourself, while relieving yourself run hands through as your washing your hands. The warmness will feel pretty good, but keep rubbing your hands until they dry thouroughly. I have found through my recent studys that the chemical that causes the yellow collering in the urine causes you to have extra grip on your discs!

Try this tip out and tell me what you think!

Kids please leave this up to the TRAINED PROFESSIONALS such as Craig!

Kevin, I really wonder about you sometimes!!!

"Morgan, that would be called the top or bottom of the disc seeing as all sides are capable of rolling."

The left side of the disc only rolls when it's on the right side. But by that time, the right side is on the left side again.

He's not really from Oklahoma. We let him with a work visa. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

The outside of the disc rolls much better than the inside.

* Since I learned how to throw using a ultra-star and still use the 175 at least as much as the golf disc, I am used to using a more arm based throw. *

You might try the bent arm throw. I find it more complicated and not as accurate but tastes vary. As I noted somewhere before, you might think of it as a power/speed version of the common freestyle finger roll throw.

Also, if you learn a seperate set of skills (aka the reach back) for DG, it may be easier to keep them seperate from your Ultimate skills.

Some of the better ultimate players that I know who play pretty good DG are happiest using generally understable driver discs thrown with hyzer to lots of hyzer -- aka golf discs with somewhat similar flight features to ultimate discs. One can get pretty good distances that way.

No offense Fred, but you don't have to keep blasting the elbow back technique. You don't have to tell everyone about how it is not as accurate just because it isn't for you. It can be just as accurate as the straight reach back, but like all things practice is needed. It seems like your comments are discouraging people from trying it. They won't try it out because you have said it is not as accurate, and that their grip won't work with it. I have no problem with you stating your opinion, but there are a lot of postives that come with the elbow back technique that you don't mention.

Dave, I've heard a lot about nose-up and nose-down throwing but, it's an area I've yet to really look into. In trying to throw a Roc dead straight at 250ft, I think I can see what you are talking about. It seems to be a subtle thing. What adjustments need to be made to my form to get this type of motion at the hit (assuming I am doing everything consistent with what you have been teaching).

Is this related to what Kenny has talked about with his thumb placement and wrist-roll technique. Is he using a higher spin rate to control the end of the flight, or to throw a nose-up drive?

Also, I noticed on Theo's videos that a lot of throwers seem to be pulling the left arm in at the start of the pull-through. Is there a technical reason for this? And, how much energy/distance would you suppose one is losing from an unbalanced finish/follow-thru? Would that be a direct result of an off-timed throw?

Michael, let's address your 1st and 3rd paragraphs that I believe are related. Kenny will have to address your 2nd paragraph, as I don't know. To consistently get the nose down, I believe it is helpful to throw with the disc coming through high and finishing level. Otherwise you have to bend your wrist down uncomfortably far. In order to pull through and finish level, it is extremely heflpful to have your weight transferred over your plant foot at the hit so that all the energy is transferred forward and not vectored upward by having your center of gravity behind your plant foot as so many pros do. Kenny, Cam, and I believe Ron Russel also have their weight over their front foot, and all finish through the throw instead of behind or to the side as many others do. Steve Rico compensates by leaning to the right and rolling his ankle, thereby avoiding most of the upward vector.

As far as the left arm is concerned, it should be in next to your body so that it doesn't slow your spin initially. Later it can be used to slow you down.

If your center of gravity is behind your front foot you will lose energy, and tend to throw high and nose up. I don't know how much, but if Avery is a good measure, it was very noticeable. Steve Rico doesn't really lose any energy, because he is off to the right, the energy remains in the same plane, and because it's centrifugal acceleration, not linear, as so many think, it doesn't make a difference. It's just harder to do.

i've been following this thread quite intently and have some thoughts and questions. first off, i'm quite pleased with my distance throws and incorporate both the "reach-back" and the
"bent-elbow" techniques depending on the particular shot. Specifically, for shorter, tighter shots the bent-elbow technique, which seems to provide me with much greater control. my own terminology for this was my "roc-shot," for i use this technique quite often with the roc (also, with the big bead aviar). despite what has been described in some of these messages, the bent-elbow technique does not require a "wrapping" of the hand and wrist around the disc as is shown in the video of (shoot, the link is gone, female disc golfer in mr. pozzy's videos, help???). i have begun to get comfortable throwing drivers with this technique and i'm beginning to reach my maximum distance with what seems to be much less effort. my interest in this thread is two-fold--first, i'm trying to teach the game to someone else, and this thread has helped in coming up with common terms and definitions of various, but closely related techniques. secondly, i dislocated my elbow last summer and i was able to throw a bent-elbow technique much more quickly than the reach-back, and with much less stress on that particular joint. my elbow doesn't straighten out anymore and when cam todd heard this, he said "that's great," and proceeded to explain how the elbow AND wrist stay static throughout the throw, using mostly the centrifugal force for power. it has done wonders for my game with regard to accuracy, especially in tense, tournament situations, there is simply less that can go wrong with the shot. i feel that developing both shots has been beneficial to me and my game. some things i've noticed are: 1) the bent-elbow technique requires a higher arm through the throw (coming with more of an anhyzer angle) with the angle of the disc at release dictating the flight-path, moreso than the reach-back which tends to allow for some flip in the disc upon release (more snap in the release). does this seem accurate, dave? maybe my "roc-shot" differs slightly than the elbow-bent, but there are always variations depending on the individual. just some thoughts, sorry about the length. whew.

Kevin, seems pretty accurate to me, except there is not more snap in the reachback. It depends how you do it. You do hit on a good point I think about the ease with which you can come through high with the bent elbow as opposed to the severe reachback. Cam gave you good advice about using the centrifugal force.

This is another reminder that I've got a Yahoo Group named resources-dg where I post the collected, edited, and rearranged version of all of Dave D's Distance secrets from this thread. The posts are all rearranged in the order of a throw. I've also added a Table of Contents, an Index, and places to insert pictures. I'm still adding the newest information, revising, and reorganizing it, so about once per week (usually Wed.) I send out the latest version. My eventual goal is to get it written into a coherent article.

The Yahoo group is set up so that only I can post to the list. Initially I will only post my updates of Dr. D's Distance Dialogue. But if there is interest, in the future I'll expand to sharing other files of various DG info that I've collected.

If you're interested in joining you can sign up at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/resources-dg

Lowe
17976

hey dave, thanks for the response. i think the snap i mention is a result of my grip than the technique itself. my grip is different for the two techniques. i use a "flip the bird" with the bent-elbow technique with all fingers involved with the throw. with the reach-back i "lose" my pinkie finger and ring finger from contact with the disc resulting in a powerful snap, but decreased accuracy. i'm experimenting with interchanging these techniques and grips with mixed results. ultimately i would like to use the grip that lends the most control and still reach distances of 425 to 450 feet. any suggestions about jiving the grip and technique? thanks in advance for all the insight you provide to everyone. kevin

Dave,
When you say that you should transfer all your weight to the plant foot to keep the disc level, does this mean that you should also step through the throw instead of rotating on the plant foot (barry instead of jarvis in the vids).
Any other advise for keeping the disc level?
j"nose up"v

Justin, yes stepping through is a much easier way to throw clean level powerful throws. It doesn't require nearly the same flexibility or knee and ankle torsion.

Kevin, I can't give you any one answer as to what grip suits you best. You need to experiment. I can tell you that at least five different grips have been used for distance and golf champions, including the flip the bird grip, power grip, fan grip, fork grip, and bonopane. These I know right off the top of my head, but I am pretty sure there are others. What this means is, no one grip is "the" right one.

Please Dave, just tell Dr. Fred his is "the" one or he may start in again.

(As a post Dr. Fred bashing comment disclaimer, I bought and like his basket.)

OK Dave more arcane terms to decipher. What is the "fork grip", and what in the world is a "bonopane"?

After thinking about the simplest way to explain why the elbow back is more efficient, this is what I have come up with. F=MA. Since all people use virtually the same disc mass(M), it can be thrown out of the equation. So you are left with F=A. A figure skater spins faster with the arms close to the body, so you will rotate faster with the elbow back method. If you reach back you won't be able to rotate as quickly, meaning less acceleration(A), which results in less force(F). Would this be a simple but effective way to explain why the elbow back method is more effecient?

The way I usually explain it is e=Mc2 where e is the energy you put into the throw, M is the mass of the disc, c is the speed of light and 2 is like, uh..the number 2 or something...

Dave,
I see the point that there is no one "best" grip. However, you've pointed out that there are "best" ways to throw a grip such as the power grip, as well as not very good ways. Does each grip have a "best" way to do it? Or does it depend on variables such as hand size, finger length, etc?

In my case I've been trying several grips lately after reading everything here and on the grip thread. I've tried to emulate Juliana's grip in her pictures, but I find the thumb placement a little awkward. (BTW her pictures are at Juliana's Disc Golf Stuff: Grips (http://www.innovadiscs.com/juliana/Grips/backhandpage.htm)) Is it "best" to place your thumb as far out on the disc as her picture? Until now I've used a power grip with my thumb close to the rim. And if the thumb is out that far should it pinch against a finger directly under the flight plate? At this point I'm getting a little muddled as to what is "best".

In an earlier post you answered this question:
Q: Where should I put my thumb, near the edge or closer to the center?
A: "Thumb position is a tricky thing to explain. The best thing I can say is that your thumb can grip and oppose in more than one place: Thumb pad, first joint, second joint, and base. This is in order of weakest to strongest point. Further complicating the picture: the pressure from the base of the thumb can be translated along the rim such that it is not directly opposed, but none the less effective. Try to become aware of where the pressures are coming from, and what you are trying to accomplish with your grip, and you may find a more efficient and/or powerful grip. At the very least you may be able to focus pressure in your current grip more effectively ."

What should oppose the thumb? In Juliana's power grip picutres her thumb would not be opposed by anything.

Thanks in advance for your advice.

I dont know how much this will help, but from what I get from watching myself in the video is that I stand straight up when I throw. Everyone else, including my bro, tends to lean over when they drive. Now, by looking at this video and not knowing the results of everyone's throw, you would probably think that I wasn't throwing all that hard. I remember throwing those shots in Steilly and my shots were consistenly going 500 feet. It looks like that I am exerting the least power out of everyone. Back to my point, imagine a center of gravity line going from the top of the head straight down to the ground. With Steve, Marc, and Barry that line would go from the top of their heads, and drop down to the ground in front of their stomachs. For me the center of gravity line would run right through my spine right in between my legs. My spine is it's own axis. Im not saying I get more distance with that technique, but I feel I can acheive a great distance with little effort. The easiest way to obtain greatest arm speed would be for your arm to go perfectly perpindicular with the center of gravity line. Im sorry if that doesnt make much sense, Dave if you could enlighten me more on my theory more please do. Ken

* If you reach back you won't be able to rotate as quickly, ... *

The reach back starts with arms fully extended with shoulders and hips fully rotated, which is an excellent starting point for getting maximum spin. At midpoint the arms are centered close to the body (enabling very rapid spin) with shoulders and hips turning rapidly. Hence one produces the same if not greater rotational potential because the arms go from full extension to tight in on the body very quickly.

At the very least, reach back generation of spin is more than adequate. Just look at the Pozzy videos and see how much spin and follow thru spin off the reach back folks are generating.

However, all bets are off if you are talking about a reach back that doesn't include proper foot work, with good hip and shoulder turns as part of the reach back.

My son falls into this category. He can't seem to take his eyes of the target, hence his reach back generates little hip and shoulder preturn. As a result he generates very limited spin and throws mostly with his arm.

The result is very modest 75 yd distance (for an 11 yr old with a 52 MPH fastball) AND marginal accuracy. Aka, the reach back doesn't work well if you don't do it right, but that's true of most everything.

He'd also not do particularly well with the bent arm either. At this point it's the eye on the target thing (and not trusting his his feet to guide his throw) that he's stuck on which screws his BH up.

Why doesn't he fix it? He's to busy with soccer, basketball, baseball, etc to join Dad for a few rounds at the practice field throwing discs right now. Besides, I'm usually doing the practice field thing at a nearby field while he's at his various practices and pregame warmups. It's not like I'll get better at DG watching him practice soccer.

Just a hint for those DG Dads and Moms who are trying to figure out when to get some DG in while attending to family duties...

Lowe,
If you ask Scott stokley he'll tell you to put your thumb as close to the rim as possible for distance. Personally I think that as long as it opposes the strongest point on the index finger you're fine. You might not want to look at the strange thumb position of JK. Since she has smaller hands she might need different grips to get a good hold, but I don't think the average male golfer would benefit from that grip as it allows the disc to tear away from the hand to easily.
-jv

Ken,
You have amazing form! Do you give lessons?
-jv

I also made the same observation as Ken Jarvis about his more upright body position. Having played a lot of overall tournaments I've had the opportunity to study some of the really "big arms" throwing distance. It seems like most of them, like Chris Voigt, Christian Sandstrom, Niclas Bergehamn, Kurt Karlsson, Scott Stokely and Tyler Roddick, all undisputed top level Distance throwers, have a similar form as Ken J.

Their style being not as "crouched" as some of the top golfers, but much more upright, with the "center of gravity" closer to the spine just as in the video clip (btw, nice job Theo!) showing Ken J's throw.

This might be a necessity using the 360 run-up almost everyone uses for max distance in the Distance event, but it's interesting to ponder on the difference. From what I've seen (and experienced myself) I have to agree with Ken J's theory that the more "body-straight-up" technique seems to give more distance with less effort. Any other theories on the "upright" vs the "crouched" form?

Lowe, the fork grip is the same as the stack grip and is what Kenny Climo uses. It's a modified fan grip that slides the ring and middle fingers against the pinkie such that they stack up. Only the pinkie and index touch the rim which provides a clean snap, good touch, and if used correctly, good power.

Jedidiah, you explanation is correct but incomplete. Also calling it "elbow" back is a little misleading as both methods have the elbow back. In addition to what you said about the acceleration is the ease with which you can get the disc into the elbow bent drive position that every good driver must get to anyway.

Lowe, as to the thumb issue: Yes, each grip has better way to do it depending on hand size and strength. Points to look for are: Good feel for the position of the disc in your hand, ie. nose up/down, hyzer/anhyzer, good lock and release to pivot point that allows for a clean linear release and pivot to the rip point, and finally a strong rip point with good feel. The thumb is almost always on the flight plate from close to the rim to more central. Juliana'a grip and thumb position is very close to Sam Ferran's grip. They feel the plate with their thumb and grip with the base and thumb knuckle. The Bonopane is kind of like the power grip but the index finger is on top of the thumb which is in the normal position just behind the rim on top of the flight plate.

Ken J, I think you can use the ice skater analogy again. Much easier to spin quickly in an upright position, plus at the hit it is easier to direct the energy forward instead of vectored which causes a loss. You spin more quickly than just about anyone I can think of, have tremendous elbow drive, and have an awesome tendon bounce off your very strong fingers.

Peter, if you think about it, the upright form, along with the prebent elbow is pretty much what you do when you throw 360 distance, the difference is the x-step versus the turnaround. I just eliminated the turnaround. However, the turnaround for golf is not unknown. John Ahart, a former world champion, and Randy Amman, a regional champion, both use it on the tee, with great accuracy and very good power that they could not get otherwise as neither is a particularly strong athlete.

For me to get enought hyzer to make my discs fly straight, I usually bend over. If I stand upright, I don't see how I am going to keep my discs from rolling.

More stable to overstable discs and cleaner snap if needed. You don't need to bend over to throw straight, only hyzers.

* If I stand upright, I don't see how I am going to keep my discs from rolling. *

Some folks have body types and musculature that works better bent over with hyzer discs. You might be such a person. I've scene some folks who can really throw this way. However, I also recall them having accuracy trouble.

You might also check the disc position as it crosses your chest. While the ideal flat and straight position varies from person to person and disc to disc, in general under the arm pits is what is needed for a good long flat flight to about 100 yards, when standing up straight.

If it doesn't fly flat, keep raising the crossing point up a couple fingers in height until you see a good flat flight line. (or get a more stable disc).

When you get a repeatable technique nailed down (whatever that technique is), most every disc has a chest crossing point where it will end up just about where you aim it at about 100 yards (before the tail).

As far as that goes, a fist higher or lower in delivery is what is generally required for adjusting your technique for each stability range for discs of the same general weight range.

Aka, if you find you throw an zero rated disc flat at the arm pits, a #1 rated disc will end up pretty much where you aim it (at 100 yards, albeit with some sort of a curved flight path) one fist up from the arm pits, and a 2 rated disc 2 fists higher than that. A minus 1 is down a fist, etc...

If your arm pit crossing requires a #1 stability disc to get a flat flight, then just move the rest of the scale up or down accordingly.

It's not an exact science, but it generally works pretty well as a guideline with discs in the same wieght class.

Where this "science" has it's limits is when you have a disc that has lots of lift, which require a downward trajectory adjustment that can only be determined by familiarity with that particular disc.

Also, if you haven't noticed it, beware, discs of the same mold and run can vary in their lift according to how much or little the dome pops up upon cooling after molding. Dave could probably go thru the art/science of how the molding process can be adjusted to maximize or minimize this effect.

In regards to grips I just read some notes that I already had from Scott Stokely.

Scott wrote somehere:
"One of the biggest misconceptions of disc golf technique is which grip is best. The truth is, there is no one right grip. This is because everyone's hand is shaped differently, and everyone's fingers are different sizes. On top of this, we all prefer discs with different rim depths and rim configurations.

What this means is that there will never be any universally perfect grip for every person. You have to choose a grip that works with your hand with whatever discs you throw. There are however three rules to follow no matter which grip you choose:
1) Grip the disc firmly.
2) Keep your thumb close to the rim. This is a subtle trick to keeping the nose down on the disc. The closer the thumb is to the rim, the lower the nose will be. The closer the thumb is to the center of the disc, the more the nose will be up. This is by no means the only way to adjust the nose on the disc, but it is the only one that relates to grip."

He also answered the thumb position question.

Lowe, I agree.I dont think there is a right way to grip the disc.Take mine for example. I throw backhand and I grip the disc with "only" my ring finger on the bottom pressed against my thumb on top.I know it sounds unorthodox but I dislocated my little finger to the point that I cant fully bend it in.Therefore the "power grip" is out of the question.I,m currently throwing in the high 300 to low 400ft range.Whatever works right!Hey Dave have you ever seen anyone in all your travels with a similar style?

I don't have the problem when I am throwing under 300 feet. I think I could stay straight up when throwing -300. It is when I am trying for 300 distance that I sometimes turn it over too much. When I don't flip them, they end up near 400. I will just have to practice it to find out if I can do it well.

JONJON, you got me there, and I have seen a boatload, including a grip with no fingers on the flight plate and no fingers touching the inside of the rim.

Dave I'll have to show you at the AZ tourney.My run-up is a little different too.I start with my back turned to the target and pull my arm straight back and through.I have good results on straight shots but have a little trouble with booming hyzers(accuracy).Maybe you can give me a few pointers over there.

Dave D, just want to say a BIG "Thank You" for your advice on emphasizing the pull through following the snap.

Mid-range and approach shots have always been the worst part of my game: I'm all over the map. About the only consistent thing about it is that the disc is going to go looong or it's going to fade right well short of the basket.

Yesterday, I noticed that I was pretty much stopping my arm following the snap on approach shots instead of pulling through, so this afternoon, I grabbed a dozen Rocs and went to a field and spent about three hours throwing 50-200' approaches, concentrating on pulling through. WOW!!!! High, low, hyzer, ani, straight, floaters, line drives: they pretty much all did what I intended, and went where I aimed! If I can translate that performance to the course, it'll knock 4-6 shots off my score!

THANKS, DAVE!

I played a tourney round with JONJON and have to say he has one wild grip! It looks like he isn't even holding on to the disc. I watched intently for about four drives in a row, trying to catch when he snuck in a "quick grip" at release. It just didn't seem possible to boom big shots with that "grip", but he was.

Is this a great game or what?

Rhett, Yes. Felix, remember the feel. All of my advice points you in the right direction, after that, it's all feel.

I managed to post some vids of my throw on the web at my site (http://gladstone.uoregon.edu/~jvalasek/).
Pleeeeeaaaaaase, take a look at some of the shots and tell me what I'm doing wrong. I would recomend looking at trfront and trabove. These are shots of my throw in slow motion from the front and from above.

The files are fairly big, so if you have a dial up connection, you might want to wait until I cut out the audio to make the files smaller.

I used quick time which is cool because one can pause and then use the arrows to go from frame to frame.

The above shots are pretty cool as they show what the arm is doing really well.
thanks for looking over the vids and please give me some feedback!
-jv

Nice Video-clips! You already have a quite good form there Justin!
One detail I noticed: I get the feeling that you start the turning of the torso and shoulders just a little early. It seems a little off-sync somehow. Almost at the same time as your hips starts turning, you also turn your shoulders and starts the throwing motion with your arm.

To get the best acceleration through the throwing motion, make sure you lead with your hip rotation, _then_ follow with your torso, shoulder, and arm, in that order. Just need a little work on the timing there and you'll probably get quite a few extra yards.

It's especially clear in "trabove.mov"; notice how your shoulders and your hips turns simultaneously, if you would draw a horisontal, straight, line from the left hip through your body to the right hip, and another from left shoulder through to the right shoulder, the imaginary lines would turn in parallell, almost at the same time at the same speed, in the throw. Instead, the hips should turn before the shoulders for that whip-like effect.

You already have a good reach-back, and an excellent follow-through. A little work on the timing as i said above, and I'm sure you have the potential for 450 feet. (Hope you don't already throw that far, and I make a total fool of myself ;-)

It will be really interesting to also hear other analysts comment on your videos here...
Good luck!
-p.

You need to talk to Kevin "MRV in the basket" McCoy about converting the video clips to streaming format. Real player.

No way am I gonna download 1.5 Megs.

Yeah, slow connection is a bummer... ;-)

I had a second look at the video together with a friend (Hi Roger), and although it's very hard to tell, even in slow motion, he pointed out that the throwing motion/hip rotation might also be started a fraction of a second too early. It seems like Justin initiates the hip rotation/forward arm swing while the plant (right) foot is still in mid air, i.e. kind of "jumping" into the throw, which would make it a bit harder to get all the power from the legs into the throw. Anyone agree? It's a close call for sure...

Justin, your form is very good. You are using your center of gravity and follow through better than many pros. Your footwork and body position are excellent. What makes you think there is anything wrong? If you are not already over 400 ft. it has to do with rhythm, as Peter said, and your grip/finger/wrist/disc interface through the hit. The latter is something we can't see, but is where a lot of energy is lost in some people's throws.

Thanks for the comments and advise!
I am working on converting the clips from quicktime to other formats, but imovie isn't being helpful. As soon as I can get rid of the audio track and reformat I'll repost the link.

Right now I max out at about 380, I hope to get that up to 450 eventually.
It seems as if something is off with my throw, and I'll have days where my rotation feels much better and my distance inproves by about 40 ft!
Somehow I can never hold onto it though /msgboard/images/clipart/sad.gif.
I also noticed that I throw in a non-horizontal plane (arm starting low ending up high), could this be something that is affecting distance?
-jv

Justin, to my untrained eye it looks like you have great form. The only thing I noticed (when comparing your video to the one of Barry Schultz) is that Barry gets a lot more shoulder turn than you do. By that I mean his right shoulder goes further back (counterclockwise if viewed from above) than yours does on the backswing. I think if you concentrated on more upper body twist it would be worth some D.

Of course, I can barely hit 300', so that's just my opinion, I could be wrong /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

Hopefully more folks will post their vids like this, it's a great idea.

Oh, and don't worry about converting the clips, at least not to Real Video format. That Real Player adds a lot of hidden junk to your PC and should be avoided at all costs!

Hey Justin, if you have QT Pro, you can open the clip in QT Player and export it, saving only the video track. Alternatively, you can use the shareware program Sparkle to split the clip into separate mpeg audio and mpeg video clips, then convert the mpeg video back to QT. You'll lose a bit of resolution that way, but you can adjust the frame rate in Sparkle and the final QT file will be about 30% smaller than doing it w/QT Player.

If I had a video camera/digital camera I might put my throwing motion on my website. Being 15, for me to be able to throw 400 feet should mean relatively good technique. I can't "muscle" a disc as far as older players, so my technique has to make up for it.

hi everybody. my name is jason. i started playing disc golf a couple of months ago and now im hooked. i can drive over 300ft consistently somtimes hitting around 400ft. but i want to learn how to throw 600ft. if someone has advice please send it my way. i keep reading-use your wrist and fingers as springs not hinges.not to sound stupid or anything but i cant visualize it so if someone can explain it differently i would appriciate it. for drivers i throw a bomb good and a firehawk really good,should i try something else? i also started using a elite pro x2
my email is moosebascom1@aol.com so email me or leave a message for me on this site-thanks

The best way to throw 600 feet is make sure it's down a long steep hill.

The best person to ask here is Dave Dunipace.

ASK SCOTT SROKELY on Discrafts website..

Stokely ,,,Doh

Jason,

The distance throw is a different throw than a golf shot. It's a big S shot with very little accuracy.

The X2 is a great golf disc, but not a great distance disc. Stokely and Voigt are throwing the XS for distance.

Jason,

It is impossible to throw golf discs very far. If you want to throw 600 feet just use two or three shots, you'll get there soon enough. Don't be so impatient.

It definetly takes some practice, patience and time. as for throwing over 600', that is going to take alot of practice and time...

Dave D-- I'm curious about your take on biomechanical limitations. Do you feel that it is even physically possible for an average player (in terms of physical build) to throw that far (600 ft.), even if they have PERFECT technique? Or is this something that requires a more optimal body type (tall, long arms, wide shoulders) and much greater muscle power, along with the technique?
The reason I ask is that Jason and other new players may injure themselves trying to do this without first developing better muscle balance in their bodies. Also, since you design and manufacture discs, you certainly recognize that the more overstable we keep making discs, the more this encourages beginners to try to throw too hard early on.

Jason,
I'd like to invite you, and anyone else who is interested, to join my Yahoo group called "resources-dg". I've collected all of Dave Dunipace's advice on getting better golf distance. Currently I'm transforming this into an article that flows in a coherent form. It contains some good explanations of what Dave is trying to teach. There are currently 31 people in the group and I'll be sending the latest version of the article soon.

I'm trying to learn about getting better golf distance which is different from trying to get pure distance. To throw 600 ft you're going for pure distance. There is an appendix in my article on how to get pure distance, though. I'm not sure that it describes the 360 degree turn runup, but that is one essential techhique for pure D.

You can join by sending an e-mail to resources-dg-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Or by going to the website at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/resources-dg

Dan, I don't think it is possible for the average guy to ever throw 600 ft off the tee even with perfect form. I do think it is possible for the average guy to throw 400 ft off the tee with proper technique and training. This is all for flat ground and little to no wind.

"I don't think it is possible for the average guy to ever throw 600 ft off the tee even with perfect form. I do think it is possible for the average guy to throw 400 ft off the tee with proper technique and training. This is all for flat ground and little to no wind."

I agree with Dave I feel a little above average and I can get 500 barely with a 360 turn around and flat ground and no wind. And I have been told lot's of times I have pretty "good" form. In fact I have only thrown 600 feet on flat ground with a constant 30MPH wind and all I did was throw a X-Clone as High as I could with it turned over and watched it pan out and hit the ground at aprox 615ft. Fred Salaz had two 300' tapes tied together and he ran out of tape measure. So we guessed 15' after the tape. I still have the disc, I figured I would never throw that far again on flat ground. OH and by the way this was in Dayton, OH not at High Altitude.

i was just out practicing the bent elbow technique and i had a question for dave or anyone else that uses this. when throwing this way i was no longer getting screaming line drives that had a ton of velocity on them as they left my hand, is this a good thing? i was getting the snap sound out of my hand and concentrating on the chop but the disc was taking more of a straight, hovering line that had a ton of glide but less zip. if this is not a good thing, any ideas on what i'm doing wrong? my D was down a bit but i felt tons more accurate.

thanks,

blake t.

Concentrate on the end of the shot where you are pulling through the snap as hard as you need for the distance you want.

thanks dave. i'll try that tomorrow. what about the disc speed? i remember morgan posting a while back about the disc flying slower but just as far or farther... should it be more of a rocket or more of a glider?

when i was out practicing it today there were 50-60mph gusts so i wasn't too worried about distance. when there were a few lulls i did notice my disc going slower but with more glide which reminded me of when i first learned to throw an aviar over 250'

thanks

blake t.

It should be going like a rocket. Spin should be directly related to launch velocity. The glide is probably related to a lower pitch angle which translates into longer straighter glides. The velocity is the same or greater depending on the individual's physical attributes. The worse shape you are in, or the more you don't resemble a tall wirey athletic young strong male, the more the pre-bent elbow technique will help. If you are a gifted athlete, this technique may not help you.

k, thank you very much for the info. i'm more linebacker type athletic than tall/wirey athletic so i figure i should learn this and do what will get the most out of my body.

i have another quick question. should i be focusing more upon getting my elbow through as fast as possible or should i be trying to get as much into the "chop" as possible?
it seems like when i focus on the chop i am strongest at the hit but i don't finish as well but when i go for more upper body speed i get a better finish but am not as strong during the hit. i guess i'm having trouble visualizing it but i'm willing to work and work until i get it.

thanks again

blake t.

Dave, I played with Ken Jarvis in Santa Cruz and his elbow seemed glued to his body. He blasts through with his hips so fast that the combination of his elbow and wrist speed make him exponentially faster than most! At Worlds his reach seemed to be more elongated (using the 360)

I think Bruce Lee said it best in the "Tao of Jeet Kune Do" (Verbatim)

"The whiplike or coiled-spring action of the human body in its striking (throwing) movement-pattern is a remarkable phenomenon. The movement of the body may start with a push of the toes, continue with a straightening of the knees and the trunk, add the shoulder rotation, the upper arm swing, and culminate in a forearm, wrist and finger snap. The timing is such that each segment adds its speed to that of the others. The shortened lever principle is used to accentuate many of the particular speeds of this uncoil of whip. The rotation of each segment around its particular joint-fulcrum is made at high speed for that particular part; but each segment rate is accelerated tremendously because it rotates around a fulcrum already highly accelerated."

Blake, they are both important and need to be incorporated into a whole whiplike movement. It needs to become a feel thing. Rhythm and timing are very important. Arm speed generated by the elbow chop has to be timed with hip and shoulder turn. And all of this has to be connected to your center of gravity leading the disc's rip off your fingers.

Chris, Ken also has an excellent grip that maximizes the acceration he produces by allowing a quick fast disc pivot in his hand followed by a powerful and efficient rip from his fingers. He is a throwing machine. A 150 lb. throwing machine.

Dave,

Don't let Blake fool you--I played with him in a tourny last summer/fall and he could toss a disc a long way back then. If you help him throw longer/more accurate, it will be scary.

BTW thanks for all the tips.

Hi Blake!

JK

hi john. unfortunately my consistent 380' low line drive has gone down the tubes and i figured if i gotta relearn how to throw this spring/summer for the the umptheenth time, i may as well learn to do it better. each year i come up with a gigantic technique revision that is 1 step better than the summer before but it takes me most of the summer to get it down. my goal for playing/cashing in pro open by sept 2003 isn't looking all that likely but it is still a goal /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

i just got back from practicing the bent elbow technique and i think my main problems are coming from my center of gravity and my grip. i ended up with a blood blister on my middle finger halfway between the knuckles (i use a pinch grip) and i think that may be interfering with a clean snap. will work on it more next week.

thanks again,

blake t.

btw john, your putt has saved me many strokes getting out of a rough lie.

I will also add that Ken was a great sport! He took a couple of bad breaks at the Masters Cup and it didn't phase him. I also enjoyed playing with Donald Smith, we were all pumping each other up the whole round (I wish every group was like that).

Another Bruce Lee quote (the disc golfer that never was!)

"After momentum in a throwing or elliptical striking movement has been generated by a long radius and a long arc in the swing, the speed may be increased without applying additional force by suddenly shortening the radius of the arc. This effect is seen in the "pull-in" at the last of the arc in the hammer throw, in the backward thrust against the forward leg by the batter in baseball, and so on. Snapping a towel or a whip are common examples of the same "shortened lever" principle."

Blake, this may apply to your center of gravity reference.

"The secret of a proper balance in the proper stance is to keep the feet directly under the body, which means they should be a medium distance apart." "With the bending of the forward knee, the center of gravity moves forward a little." "This position permits relaxation, speed, balance, and easy movement, as well as a mechanical advantage, making possible tremendous power." -Bruce Lee, Tao of Jeet Kune Do

Can you imagine Bruce Lee throwing discs with his understanding of the human body! Hope this helps!

Blake,

I'm glad to hear my goofy putting style has helped. I still get double-takes and comments whenever I play with someone new. Just be sure to give me credit when you're being interviewed on ESPN after winning some huge tourny with it.

JK

Isn't Ken Jarvis a <FONT SIZE=" 1">135</FONT> lb. throwing machine?

Couple of questions:
Elbow chop?
Does this mean a quick foreward movement of the elbow during the middle of the shoulder turn? Is this something I should focus on, because I'm pretty sure I don't have a very active elbow.

Pivot foot.
Traditionaly I have always run through my throws without stopping (or putting much pressure) on my pivot foot. I have noticed that most top distance throwers will pretty much stop and throw around their right foot. I have tried this and do seem to see an increase in distance, but I'm wondering what this does for accuracy. Do pretty much all top Disc Golfers throw around a strong pivot, even when going for accuracy?
thanks for any info,
-jv

Elbow chop is a way of saying quick extending elbow. It is done properly in concert with the rotating shoulders such that centrifugal force aids the extension of the elbow and therefore the movement of the disc from close to your body to away. The shoulder turn always leads this action rather than trails or turns with the disc, as beginners do. I don't understand the foot pivot question, but as far as pressure goes, it's not necessarily a good thing, nor is stopping. There is a video of Christian Sandstrom that has a link on another thread. Ignore the turn around part of his form and just look at the last part after his right foot touches. His form is very good for distance or golf. Pay particular attention to how far his hips and shoulders travel past the shot.

the thread is new distance record 806ft. Post is Peter Henricksson.

Sorry, it's Henriksson.

Dear Dave et al.,

I want to thank you all for your precise and informative instructions on throwing discs....I am 41 and (somewhat sad to say)just began playing dg last august....this past winter I discovered this thread and studied it and had to content myself with some indoor shadow practicing until March when I could get out to a football field for practice....when they put the baskets in at Plamann the first week of May I was there and much to my delite found myself deuceing holes almost immediately....and just last week I hit the chains for the first time on the eleventh hole at Plamann... a 195 feet with a blind approach...

This past weekend Plamann hosted the Fox Valley Open which DiscTV taped for airing on June ninth and my son, Julian, age 7, with whom I have been working diligently on his throwing technique, got his first par 3 on a 185 hole and John from DiscTV had his camera rolling has he drained a 35 foot putt! Should be on the highlight reels for the day...

thanks again.....

I'd also like to thank Dave for all the info he has posted on this thread. Yesterday I overthrew a 348 foot hole at FDR Park in Yorktown Heights (although it was right of the hole, and I missed the putt). I have never been able to even come close to reaching this basket before.

BTW, it was a DX Valk - my new favorite disc /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

Thanks guys. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

Dave, I found another Bruce Lee quote that describes Ken Jarvis (IMO).

"A powerful athlete is not a strong athlete, but one who can exert his strength quickly. Since power equals force times speed, if the athlete learns to make faster movements he increases his power, even though the contractile pulling strength of his muscles remains unchanged. Thus, a smaller man who can swing faster may hit as hard or as far as the heavier man who swings slowly."

Good news! After many hours, I've finally finished converting all of Dave D's advice on this thread into a coherent article. The article is organized in essentially the same order as the throw. Dr. D has graciously added his revisions. You can read it by joining my Yahoo group, resources-dg. Subscribe by:

1) Going to <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/resources-dg (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/resources-dg)" target="_blank">http://groups.yahoo.com/group/resources-dg</A></a>
or
2)send an e-mail to:
resources-dg-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
I'm pretty sure you need to say "Subscribe" in the subject line.

If you wouldn't mind including your name and City, ST I'd appreciate it. I just like to know where people are from and won't use that info for any other reason.

Currently the article is in a Word doc but soon it will be posted on the Web as a PDF file. Soon I'll also give you some URLs where you can find it.

i posted a formatted copy on my site at:

http://www.geocities.com/discreview/distancesecrets.html

let me know if there's any broken links and such

blake t.

Thanks Blake, I've had some interest in finding the time to read thru this tread, your compilation allowed me to print a copy and now I can have it with me to refer back to during practice. After some time given to reading through everything here, (10 pages) I'll check out some of the many links that you included.

Allen B.

Yet another question,
I have been using a version of the fan grip, but lately I have had trouble with the disc slipping out early. Therefore I switched to the stacked grip, but have noticed that sometimes the grip between my pinkie and the rim is sometimes too tight, making it harder for the disc to pivot towards the snap (I get a audible snap from the pinkie, but not the index finger).
Dave, you mentioned earlier that Ken Jarvis uses a grip that gives little resistance as the disc pivots in the hand, but still has a strong tear away point between the index and the thumb. What is this grip? It must be a good one given the results!
again, thanks for any info.

Allen, thank Lowe and Dave more /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

Dave for the info, Lowe for compiling it to a word document. i spent about an hour last night formatting it with links to html, but that's minor in comparison to their contributions.

blake t.

Justin, it's not the grip per se, but the strength of Ken's fingers and the way he uses the grip. The fan grip is one of the best grips to allow the pivot, but one of the worst if you don't have a very a strong thumb. The world record has been set at least twice by guys using the fan grip. Ken uses a power grip. The world record has been set many times by guys using a power grip. The stack grip is a good combination control and distance grip for golf drives, but not particularly good for distance per se. Guys with strong thumbs can use any grip for distance, but if you have a weaker thumb, as I do, you have to experiment with different grips to find the one that is most suited to your finger and thumb strength. If you are concerned with golf driving distance, you should remember that accuracy is much more important that distance alone. Don't sacrifice accuracy for distance. When it comes to throwing a disc, the grip is counterintuitive. Instead of letting the disc go, you squeeze at the end of the pivot.

My turn to thank you Blake!

Lowe and Dave, Great Job! This is truly the Tao of Disc Throwing! /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

I was introduced to Disc Golf in 1997, but played Ball Golf for all of 98' and most of 99'. Since July 99' I've been playing non-stop, and have played Open for going on 2yrs.

One of my favorite parts of the game is helping other players "Feel it". The hard part for me is that I feel like I'm a beginner, and to offer "Pro" advice to other players is strange.(Blake you may have noticed that, but I'm glad it helped! 80ft WOW!)

Now, after reading some of the compilation, I've been able to analyze parts of my own technique.
Can't wait to see if I can add some distance to my own throw, and it should definately help me teach other players.

Justin, Ken taught me a fan grip when I threw distance at the 2000 Pro/Am Worlds, and I immediately added 50ft to my drive. I throw with what I call a "2-finger/4-finger" (most people comment that it's unique - but I doubt it)
My pointer and middle act as one finger, while my pinkie and ring act as the other. It's similar I think to Climo's, but with a definate gap between the sets of fingers (like Spock) My release point is over the pads of my 1st two fingers, and I found that the less friction (pop) the cleaner and faster my release became.

Again THANKS!

the spock grip...

throw long and prosper.

/clipart/proud.gif

The article of Dr. D's Distance Secrets really needs some pictures, so that we can see it. I'm trying to find info on pros that use the bent elbow reach back. It seems that Steve Brinster uses it. Ruth Steele and Timmy Gill use it. If anyone can get video taken with a digital video camera it may be possible to get stills of their technique.

Are there any other pros that use the bent elbow reach back? and can anyone get any pictures of pros using it?

BTW, I've enjoyed compiling and editing Dave's advice. It's helped me start to learn it. I'm also glad that others find it useful too. It's my small way of giving something back to the disc golf community.

Hey Lowe, great job!

When (if) you update the compilation, you might want to add Larry Leonard to the list of top pros who use the bent elbow technique. (I've got 6 different clips of Larry teeing off at at last year's Sneaky Pete in Burlington, and downloaded a clip of him teeing off on #13 at the Tar Heel Tournament, and in every one, he's starting with a bent elbow, so it's clearly something he uses regularly.)

Lick your fingers!!!

About 20 seconds before you throw, lick your fingers, and then wipe them on your pants to get the excess water off, and then quickly grip your disc to get a little water on the disc, squeeze and lock into the disc with the small amount of dampness and right before it's all dried up, you will find a point where your fingers really lock into the disc like glue, from the water. At that point, you have about 10 seconds to throw or it gets too dry. If your fingers lock into the disc from licking them, your disc will go much farther than without licking them.

lowe: i know i emailed you this before, but i'm pretty sure ron russell and larry leonard throw bent elbow as well. i see felix has chimed in about mr. leonard.

must be rough on chris to feel like a beginner and be able to throw 500' /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

i guess i'm the opposite in that my game sux but i find myself giving out tips left and right to those that ask as i seem to understand what should be going on, i just haven't been able to do it the way i want to yet. maybe it's that i know that just because a particular disc or technique doesn't work for me it's because i'm bad and not because there's anything wrong with the disc or the technique.

blake t.

I was wondering if anyone else noticed in the videos at http://www.disclife.com/dj020415a.shtml that it seemed that when they used the power grip the index finger didn't touch the other fingers. Also that they all rotated on their heels.

I've been trying to get things right, but I got a ton wrong with my form that used to get me about 300 feet with good accuracy. Now that I'm trying to change my form (not all at once, want to get grip and footing down better right now) I can't get a good throw when gripping the disc hard with a power grip. Comes out fluttering for oh, 150 feet. With a less firm grip I either get no flutter or around 30-50 feet of flutter. Although all four finger tips are lined up right next to each other on the rim for me. Also, my pivot foot doesn't start at 90 degrees like theirs and then rotate, mine likes to be at 45 degrees for some reason. Am I working on the right things right now? I've always seemed to have a good elbow bend which is about the only part I feel comfortable with.

it sounds like you may be gripping too tightly at the wrong time. i had this problem a few weeks ago as i was trying the bent elbow technique and it messed up the rest of my throw by having my forearm rigid at all times (this is one of the things chris sprague helped me with). when i tightened my grip down i was getting a very loud snap sound and blisters but very little D.

i've recently added some of this to my technique troubleshooter.

Try a couple of light but firm practice swings without a disc in your hand. Your hand, wrist, and forearm should be loose enough that you hear a snapping sound of your fingers slapping against your palm at the would be hit. The spot to tighten your grip is at the point when your fingers slap against your palm. Keep in mind that the momentum of the disc will naturally press it tighter into your hand at that point so you may not need to consciously tighten your grip too much to get good snap, although from what Dave has written, it's probably necessary for bigger D.

blake t.

actually, i guess i'll chime in with the other wisdom chris helped point out.

as for spinning heel vs. ball of the foot and planting 90 degrees vs. 45 degrees, the one thing most pros are able to do is get their weight shifted over their pivot foot either that (as dave pointed out earlier on this thread) or they have developed something else to counter the upward vectors caused by failing to do this (i.e. leaning right, rolling ankle, etc.). as for the angle and feet, i think this is where runup speed might come into play. i tried the 90 degree angle plant and it just helped me twist my knee on every throw because i wasn't able to get my weight shifted properly and that locked my leg straight and drove my foot into the ground, "digging it in" and preventing it from getting a clean pivot which in turn decided to torque my knee when my foot didn't move. i have a very slow x-step and i'm thinking if i sped it up just a bit, my momentum might help me get my weight shifted, but instead i've just started planting at 45 degrees as i feel i can achieve better accuracy that way possibly at the expense of a little power. when i look at the mechanics of it, pivoting on the heel is the same deal. if you aren't moving foward enough to get a full weight shift, planting on your heel will lean you back. planting on the ball of your foot at an angle smaller than 90 degrees and onto a bent knee helps you get your hips through faster and your weight forward more easily. if you do have the forward speed to get the weight over your foot, then the heel is possible to pivot on.

i'm wondering if Dave has any comments on this if i'm understanding the mechanics of it correctly...

blake t.

Blake it sounds good. And for your steps, it is only necessary to step quickly with your left foot doing the x-step. This is what keeps your momentum moving forward.

i'm sooooo almost there with this whole bent elbow thing... got another quick question for ya dave regarding disc line...

when i concentrate on finishing the disc does not commit to a line until it has travelled ~75-150'. i hear it come off my hand and it sounds like it has too much speed and not enough spin, sorta like when someone overpowers and rolls an aviar without it wobbling... the disc then flies with the line i release it with but then it stabilizes and accelerates with the tendency of my follow-through and commits to that line. i.e. if i throw from lower with a bent waist and a hyzer angle and then follow-through straight across, the disc leaves my hand hyzer, flies ~100' straight and then flips over i'm guessing since the trajectory of my follow-through was on a different plane and it acts as a wrist roll-over. when i play the angles right these are defintely my longest throws.

when i don't concentrate on finishing i'm able to get ~320-360' low line drives that fly almost perfectly straight with no turn (even on beat dx valks) and hardly any fade.

i guess the questions i have are 1) should the disc committing to a line later in flight be happening? 2) if that answer is no, is the turnover caused by off-axis torque or is it because of the plane of my follow-through being inconsistent with the angle of my throw? 3) if the answer to #1 is yes, i guess the #2 follow-through question still applies.

and i guess a follow-up question assuming this should be happening... should i be using both techniques in sort of a 1-wood vs. 5-wood fashion? or should i try to use this technique to poke my midranges out there farther?

sorry for all the questions... i just feel i'm on the verge of breaking through... i did have a few near 400' throws into a 30mph headwind at what felt like about 50% power/effort.

thanks again,

blake t.

hrm... i just chatted with a a couple of people i know that can throw over 450' and from my description they said that the line i was getting with the emphasis on finishing was correct and that i just wasn't used to the line that "real snap" gives. i guess i'll wait for some verification from dave before i jump up and down though, but it seems as if the disc is starting the fly after it's already gone 100 feet vs. flying with 1 line immediately out of my hand and i was told "yah, that's what happens with big snap"

blake t.

Blake, I think at least two things may be happening. First, the higher the initial velocity, the longer the disc takes to reach cruise. This is especially true of unstable type drivers, but not true for ballistic discs like Aviars or Gators. Second, high speed drivers are especially nose sensitive. A slight difference in nose up or down angle can make dramatic differences in the flight pattern. Finishing strong can help to bring the nose down, especially with throws that come high accross the chest or under the chin. A nose down throw will maintain a much longer turn and fade less. If the turn is caused by off axis torque, the fade will be more dramatic, than if the turn was caused by velocity or nose down, as it should be. Finally, you should concentrate on finishing all of your throws including putts. That's where the magic happens.

cool, thanks a ton dave! i think "reaching cruise" is the disc vocab i was looking for to describe what was happening

sorry to keep picking your brain, but i figure if i have the chance i should probably try to learn as much as possible... but for a ballastic discs like an aviar, is the key to gunning em long to throw em sorta like an air bounce and getting em to fly nose up and straight for the first 200' and then flipping slightly and flying flat/nose down for the rest of the flight?

another quick question... is it possible to get your weight moving too far forward even if you are still balanced and with the majority of your weight over the pivot foot? (i'm assuming this would lead to anhyzer tendencies if it is a problem)

thanks

blake t.

just got back from throwing for 2 hours of throwing on a field and i have to say that snap is painful. got 2 blood blisters on my throwing hand and i think a grip change is in order...

PS: geocities decided to to limit the size of html documents so i had to remove part VIII (questions/comments) and the appendices from the distance article temporarily. my site hopefully will be relocated by the end of the week, either that or i will parse the file in order to retain its completeness. sorry for the inconvenience.

Blake, nose up is never the key to throwing long with any disc. That aside, you can use a beat up disc to turn and fly or new one that you launch slightly turned over. Some guys, like Sam Ferrans and Craig Leyva can throw high hyzer nose down and get tremendous distance with Aviars.

To answer the second question: If you are balanced with the majority of weight over your front foot, it is not too far forward. As for throwing anhyzer with your weight forward, this is not a problem. What might be a problem, is not recognizing whether your center of gravity is left or right. Hyzer throws may require a left shifted center of gravity, and turnover may require a right shifter center of gravity. Both require leading with center of gravity that shifts past the front foot at the hit such that it causes a follow through.

cool, thanks again. i think i'm gonna have to work on getting my aviars and rocs higher off the ground than i have been. i have too large a gap now between my drivers and midrange and i think that might be it. most of my throws with a roc or aviar are under 10' off the ground slight hyzer or flat and i'm able to go 270/250 with them respectively but i'd like to add 50' to each. i was curious because i've seen some funky air bounce stuff with aviars that seemed to work well for the throwers (aka, farther than i can put em).

i was curious with the weight shift... i threw 162 drives on thursday and 198 drives yesterday (yes, i'm a dork and i counted them). i found a noticable trend on throws with my weight shift and follow through. if i followed through and stayed over my right foot finishing well-balanced over my pivot foot after stepping through my throws were more stable and straight. if i found myself continuing forwards after stepping through the pivot and having to shift from my right to left foot very soon after the hit due to forward momentum and i found myself turning stuff over more. i wasn't sure if that should be happening... they were about equal d but the first was more accurate and used less energy. i'll focus on the left/right aspect of the weight shift next time i hit the field. the neat thing is... after 360 drives and about 50 throws with midrange/putters my right arm isn't sore. my pectoral is a hair tight but the only pain i'm in is from the blood blisters on my throwing hand hehe.

thanks so much,

blake t.

Blake,
Good luck teaching yourself to throw high AND nose down.
If you would have learned to throw regular frisbee discs from the beginning before golf discs, this would be a lot easier to do.
Throwing real high and nose down is why I am able to throw putters well over 400'.
I learned to throw with a 119g whammo in 1974.
Throwing down the street with all yards O.B. and tree branches hanging down, making it flip , fly. land then slide.
Learning to do this when your 10 sure helps a lot.
The trick is making the disc climb from hyzer to reverse with velocity and revoulution, without any wobble.
To throw a putter nose down 60 feet high you better be able to throw one smooth 50 plus miles an hour with tons of snap!!!
Also if you can learn to throw a putter nose up with hyzer very hard your short driving and approach game will improve tremendously.

Thanks for all of the testing of the discs
and the report so far.
Do you mind if we use some of it for our site??

hey dave m. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif
i actually have posted around a few places trying to learn high and nose down but i haven't really gotten a response on it other than "move your thumb closer to the rim". i think i'm starting to get it... i started to pick up on this last fall but i couldn't do it consistently. i was able to pump my aviars out there ~300' when i was on and was getting better D with them than my rocs at the time.

is the key the finish on this? i've noticed if i keep the disc higher and slight nose up to flat and then follow through lower the disc gets more of an upward spring and it seems that my follow-through jerks the nose down and forces it to reach cruise with the nose flat/down. how much does the trajectory of the pull line have to do with this if any? i'm a midwest bred player, so i've never (intentionally) thrown over 35' in the air or so. i used to be able to throw hyzers that would rise on their own before flattening but unfortunately it has escaped me. i'm working on getting it back, but haven't been able to do it yet.

as for the discs, thank YOU for sending me some to test. i'll get crackin on the rest of em soon (when my hand starts to heal up). you are completely welcome to use any of the disc info i pump out on your site. i need to make some revisions to my sabre review/rating though. i was a little more fatigued from the past 2 days than i thought i was today and i played my first rec round in about 4 weeks. needless to say, my throw was weak and i have some more info to add and ratings to tweak a little since i finally got a chance to see how it flies without enough snap /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

blake t.

Since I'm more of a natural thrower. I never have had to think about my hand, arm, wrist or any specific body part. I Only think about where I want the disc to go and maybe finishing forward with my body. All of the thoughts about the mechanics during the throw will destroy your golf game. Hopefully you can leave them on the practice field.
If you get a stack of 10 putters and just keep throwing them as high as you can get with out losing the foreward momentum of the disc, you will eventually get it down. You will need a lot of room left to right because this shot is level 10 and will create some shanks.
Confidence in a shot thrown this high has to be developed through experience.

Blake or Dave D,
Have you noticed what effect the flexibility has on the stability within a certain model??
Unfortunateley discs from the same plastic blends that end up softer or firmer usually mold up with more dome or are flatter. Usually flatter is softer and more overstable in our discs.
But these flatter ones loose their shape easier when smacked into trees.

i'll give that throwing high thing a test next time i hit the field. should i be trying to release the disc flat? or should i shoot for hyzer nose down? right now my highest throws are anhyzer...

actually, every time i see a trend in a type of disc it gets broken somewhere down the line. i thought flatter was more overstable until i threw the kc firebird, se valkyrie, etc. i think it's probably a rigid vs. flat support type of a deal. i'll stop talking about this now since i really don't know why, i just know what i've seen /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

blake t.

i have question number 859 for you guys /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif
(this one doesn't have to do with throwing putters)

is the trick to getting more control on the turnover altering launch trajectory and nose angle before the follow-through?

i'm really feeling like i'm ripping the disc now but i'm having trouble taking advantage of the extra D potential as i'm not sure on what i should be trying to get the disc to fly like pre-cruise as i'm getting quite a bit of turn with my normal slight hyzer/nose down orientation.

any input would be helpful

thanks

blake t.

Just an update. After trying what blake told me on here and through emails I get about the same distance again, but with a slower technique and not throwing anywhere near as hard to do it. Had one hard throw that popped (my first ever, woohoo) and it was gonna soar so far, but there was a tree line a little over 300 feet away that it hit at about 10 feet up and it hadn't dropped down at all yet or even started to fade left. No idea how far that one was gonna go. But more importantly, my accuracy is a little better (have a cheapo basket that's easy to take apart and put together).

The best part is that I have better wrist action now so while practicing from about 50-90 feet in the back yard I've been able to get closer easier.

Oh yeh, my problem was gripping the disc too tight, too early. Also that I haven't gotten a good fast x-over step down. When trying to go fast I get a pause that robs all of the power that I was trying to generate with it.

Blake,
I just read the report on the sabre.
I wasnt quite sure of your ability to rate a disc,
Especially since I have never seen you throw. After reading what you had to say about the sabre and its ratings, I think your very Qualified!!!
You pretty much hit it on the head except for its ability to preform realtively the same even when thrown higher. Do you also test how bad a shot goes off course when not thrown correctly??
1 thing is that you would get better distance and more glide by throwing the Sabre higher. You will soon see the fade at the end does not change that much even when thrown 30 feet high.
They truly are the flattest FLYING and LANDING sharp nosed disc on the market.!!!!
Tim and I are very impressed with your writng and will definateley use some if it for our website, and more!!
Thanks again, David

thank you for the compliments. as for the height thing, i struggle with throwing high unless i'm throwing a sweep/knife hyzer or an anhyzer. the distance i measured it on was compared to other discs thrown at the same height and on straight throws. i was shocked to see that a 25' high hyzer went further than my 8' high line drive though. i will give it another go this week and see if i have any revision to my review and ratings, hopefully tomorrow if the rain holds out in the late afternoon/early evening. i didn't have an errant throw with it until i took it to the course and i found that it did have quite a hard left bite if you get the nose up. i try not to incorporate that into ratings because it's human error vs. disc design unless i feel it's a freak occurrance or defining characteristic of the disc (like the new innova ace flattening on nose up hyzers or getting an XL turned over too far and never coming back). i hopefully will have reviews for more of the discs by the end of the week. i threw with a pro grandmaster yesterday on a field for a few hours and he was thinking i can easily break 400' this summer if i can just get the whole trajectory/height thing down as i'm able to go close to 350' with the disc at 8' off the ground on a good rip, which leads to my next throwing question...

after studying some film, i've noticed that i have similar form to ron russell and i've seen that his longer throws that get a lot of height almost look like giant air bounces before they reach cruise. i went through my videos and also saw that he seems to control his trajectory with the relative height of his left shoulder, starting with the shoulders somewhat even and then dropping his left shoulder for a more upwards trajectory and finishing straight across. am i on the right track for throwing with more height here? since i have a baseball background i discovered the whole drop back shoulder pop-fly thing early on while throwing stall outs when i first started disc golf so i consciously kept my left shoulder level or higher than my right shoulder to keep my throws low and flat.

thanks,

blake t.

Blake,
Ron does throw almost all of his shots with an air bounce. This helps a lot with control but takes away from the overall penetration big time.
Ron probably max's out at 425-450 but is throwing with enough speed and spin to throw well over 500.
I cant really give advice on the postioning of hand, arm and shoulder. I can say to make sure you explode through the shot like a pitcher off the mound, especially when throwing high nose down.
If you do not finish you will either jerkyboy to the right or stall nose up and fade left.
I would just try to throw your normal technique just higher and maybe with increased snap. **** your wrist, reach back straight bend at the waist( to get a slight hyzer while remaining in your power zone) grip it tighter and attempt to lose control on a few of the throws. i'm sure this goes against the bent elbo technique, which is for those with slow X-step or hips and lack of an athletic run up!!

k, i'll keep that in mind. the first night i got the bigger snap i found i was unable to control the throws unless i threw an airbounce and those were getting an extra 50' onto my other longest throws. i'd be totally content with 425-450' so i'll keep experimenting. i'm finding that most of my throws are right online unless i lose my concentration on finishing.

i ran through some drills in order to isolate my power sources and try to find ways to exaggerate what i was doing and i found some things out. i'm a slow x-stepper and adding longer steps or changing to faster steps threw off my timing. although if i did put an emphasis on quick hips and add 1 leading step to my x-step to gain momentum without having to concsciously step faster, both of those items were able to add 10-15' to my throws. i also found that i am now keeping the disc above or in front of my left shoulder with the elbow bent ~90 degrees. if i try a longer reach i lose snap as i'm starting to see the added difficulty of trying to start with the arm straight then bending it only to unbend it again vs. the bent elbow. it just seems to work best for me. i'm short, short arms, extremely wide in the shoulders and chest, and very strong in the legs. i guess this is causing me a little more adjustment than i expected because i've never had this much snap before.

blake t.

Rather than read the novel above, I will just ask my question (although it may well be addressed above):

What is the SECRET to throwing high and avoiding having the nose of the disc up. Typically my annie's will hit the ground with a lot of velocity left, and I can't help thinking that if I got more altitude I could squeak some distance out of them. Especially with midrange discs, like my Roc's.

I read novels to the Lazy for a nominal fee!

/msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

Ford

Hey Brad! I am VERY lazy, but also broke, so I can't take you up on your offer. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

Ditto' that! Why do you think I read novels to the Lazy? /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

Ford

my "guess" as the trick to nose down with altitude is to control trajectory with the height change in your back shoulder during and then make sure to finish strong with your follow through straight across or lower depending upon the hyzer/flat/anhyzer angle to get the nose down.

i'm not quite sure how this works but i'm hoping to learn if anyone can help with the trick... we need someone with more know-how to chime in /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

blake t.

Dave D., thanks for the tip on pinching the disc with the base of the thumb rather than the tip or the knuckle. I've made the switch and not only am I throwing farther with less effort, I'm getting a cleaner release and a MUCH louder snap. One thing I've noticed, however, is that the disc seems to rip out of my hand much later in the throw than previously, so much so that I've had to shift the angle of my runup and my aim point 30-40� left of the target, whereas previously, I pretty much aimed right at the target. Is this normal, or does my form just s**k? /clipart/happy.gif Thanks.

hyzering the disc and trusting it will turn, so as it does turn the nose flips right and walla, nose down. I have seen it done, still working on it myself. oh and practice. The advice my friend gives me is: if you don't have the snap you don't have the line!

walla = voila?

THANKS DAVE!

I used to be a 270 kind of guy with good throws up to 300. I've been working at the football field with Dave's wise words in mind and now I seem to get a 340 drive once or twice a round, although sometimes its on a 270 kind of hole!

I'm driving farther with less effort and a slower run up. The throw puts less stress on my lower back as well. I think I can get more out of this drive too, with more time learning the feel of it.

I'm driving so much farther, I'm going to have to start practicing my putting!

For some reason, the changes I'm making have not worked for my backhand roller, but rollers should be outlawed! /clipart/proud.gif

why do feel rollers should be outlawed?
in twenty words or less please?

oh Bill B.,
nice to meet ya,

thems how we pernounce thangs here in TEXAS

i have moved the distance article and there is a full copy uploaded again:

http://www.discgolf.com/discreview/distancesecrets.html

thanks marty for the webspace

blake t.

Back when I could only get 300 by rolling, there was always some goofball arguing that rollers should be outlawed. (20 words) It was a joke.

well, I got to show some big arms the roller technique last night.... and enjoyed it! Although I like to see em fly

HOOOOOLLLY CRAP!!!!!!!!!!!
Change one little thing about your toss and WOW, total different feel. I had always been confused because I was not getting much of a whip like motion and "the Hit" was pretty much non existant as far as I was concerned.

After I posted some vids of my throw, people were telling me that I needed to separate my upper and lower body motion. Although I spent hours on this, just trying to speed my hips up and delay my shoulder turn was just not helping.

And then earlier today I was studying Theo's slo mo vids (remind me to thank him, these are the only vids on the net that I have found that have enough frames to actually show the whole throw), I noticed that the pros only turn their hips about 100 deg instead of my 180 deg.

In trying to modify my throw to have less of a hip turn I noticed my major error.

I used to turn my whole body during the X step, plant and then turn my body (the body turn being pretty much one motion). Instead I started to turn my hips as I planted, so that as my plant foot hit, my hips were 90deg away from the target instead of 180 (my shoulder, arm and head were still pointing back).

All of a sudden it fell into place, THIS was how i could get upper/lower body seperation. THIS is how I could feel "the hit" and use my body as a whip. THIS is why I need to be flexible and have a strong torso.

While I'm sure this will not translate into an immediate distance jump, I now feel as if things are clicking and all the info that I have absorbed from this thread is starting to fall into place. THANK YOU everyone who has helped me out.

This is a case study how one little detail can revolutionize your whole throw.

/msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

I wish I could figure out how to get through the cross step and still be facing forward when I threw. I'm sick of facing backwards and throwing where I best remember it was, I always hit trees that way. If I could face forward when I threw I won't hit the trees. But if I face forward when I throw I don't get any distance. The top pros get good distance while facing forward. I guess I have to learn the wrist "hit" thing then, that's how they get distance and still be facing forward. I watch Ron Russel in the videos and he has almost no windup at all, he does it all with his wrist.

Or you could just learn to throw a forehand 400 ft. That way you are always facing forward.

Danm you Justin, I just found out I have the same problem and am about to leave on an hour drive to play a course in Dayton. No time for the practice field before I go, heh.

What is the effect of high elevation on the flight of the disc? Do I need to change the weight or type of disc to get the best results at elevation? I play at 6000 ft and practice at 7000 ft.

The discs are more stable...especially if you are throwing down. In which case, they maintain their stability because they are keeping their speed...if not accelerating.

Lighter discs unless you are playing on steep terrain and don't want to hike a half mile to find it if you turn it over. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

i wrote and posted a follow-up article to the distance secrets/bent elbow technique article. its focus is to aid in conceptualizing some of technique that i think is more difficult to envision when converting over to the bent elbow. i have included some of dave d.'s comments that he had on a draft and hopefully people will find the article useful.
it's located at: http://www.discgolf.com/discreview/bentelbow2.html

blake t.

Blake,

A picture is worth a thousand words. Are there any pics or videos of people that use the Bent Elbow technique throwing??

btl.

BTL, check out the video of Larry Leonard posted on DiscLife.com (http://disclife.com/dj020415a.shtml)

Also check out Ruth Steel's vid (search the forum for Theo Pozzy using the keyword search below) it has slo mo and great clarity.

All of the throwers on the Disc Life videos are throwing with either a partial bent elbow start, or a complete like Larry Leonard. None are using the straight reachback method. All are throwing with the weight over their front foot and pulling through properly. This is in opposition to the straight reachback style of Stevie Rico and others. The best forms are illustrated by Brian Schweberger, Cam Todd, Mike Young, and Larry Leonard. Todd Branch may be throwing a shorter range shot, so his form may lack some follow through because of that. Dave Feldberg brings his disc through in a dipping motion rather than high, straight and level.

Upon further review I see that Todd Branch is locking his front foot instead of pivoting and stepping through like the others. He is missing the very end of his throw and is putting stress on his knee.

The straight-reach-back style has done fairly well for Steve Rico and Barry Shultz and Ken Climo. Maybe I'm doing something wrong but the straight reach back style gets me 400 and the bent elbow gets me 250 tops. Can the "bent elbow of Dunipace" technique get me more?

I'm thinking it probably can.

Just one more...check out Lesli.

http://www.disclife.com/vid/dj02_gator_lh.mov

BTL,

there are a few players that use a very bent elbow, ron russell is probably the easiest to get footage of. the others that have been discussed are ruth steele, steve brinster, and larry leonard. there are a lot of players that use a partially bent elbow though and they contrast pretty heavily to the long/straight reach back throwers (i.e. eric tracy).

a picture is worth a thousand words, but a concept is worth a billion pictures. watching video without knowing the trick is tough to learn from. the trick and focus of my article is to be strongest at the tendon bounce part of the throw. the orientation of the hips (read as 'direction your feet are pointing), shoulders, and arm extension will vary depending upon when you feel strongest at that point and that in turn is going to vary by individual body shape, arm length, etc. basically, the bent elbow just compacts what "really" gives throwing power to the bare minimum.

i should probably thank chris sprague again. the 5 min he worked with me ended up indirectly opening a whole new world of concepts about throwing. thanks chris

blake t.

Blake. You're chance to compile MORE video with your easy to read description of the motion has arrived in town. Grab your camera and come shoot at the Minn. Majestic, that is if you're not shooting as a competitor. You can get video of just about every player mentioned above and more!

You can even thank Sprague in person again.

Laters
Keep 'Em Flyin'!!=====o {>[]---
Discmonkey

that would be great, but unfortunately my camera only has enough battery to grab the final 9 and my capture device is so old that the drivers only work in win95 and nothing more recent. i'm not playing in it as the whole time/money/skill thing keeps gettin me down hehe.

the whole bent elbow concept can be described to someone in about 5 minutes with visual aids. it basically comes down to: "try to do 'this' and be strongest 'here'" without a disc in hand. its in the attempt of finding greatest stregnth at the would-be-hit where the elbow must start with some bend. i'm sure there are players out there that can achieve greater strength with a long reach back but i'd say for the rest of us humans, the reach is counter-productive.

blake t.

Here's an interesting picture, a combination of the straight reach back technique and the bent elbow taken to the extreme, and a weird pre-bent wrist action. Would somebody tell me what's going on with the wrist? It looks like he's winding it up like a spring.

http://www.faculty.fairfield.edu/lsteffen/ctstates2002/ctst19dave.jpg

By the way it's Davis Johnson, former world distance record holder, about 1 month ago. Guy can still crush 'em, like he did back in the '70's.

Spent some time in the field tonight trying to 'find' some more distance with the bent elbow technique. Said distance was found. I am fairly sure (with out real measuring equipment) that I threw farther 2nite that I ever have before.

What was neat was the flight path of the discs (mainly valkyries) when I really connected at 'the hit'. They would almost always go about 150 feet nearly flat or with a touch of hyzer, the out of nowhere stand up and start cruising towards the right. Really cool.

btl.

For those of you that use the Bent Elbow throw, do you use it on all full power shots (with drivers and midrange?)

What about the shots that you can't throw all out - how do you adjust the throw then?

btl.

I think the only way ill get to 450 is with a huge sky anhyzer. I have been praticing this and have had some good rips.I'm not sure if i am using the right discs but the kcT-bird is my choice for the shot.I have only seen a few people that could crush a hyzer flat 450 or more.
PS MY 500 FT ROLLER MAKES ME FEEL LIKE IM CHEATING = )

btl: sounds like you nailed it. you should find you get quite a bit more D out of your midranges throwing this way as well, and since you don't have the big arm whip to overpower it (with too much velocity for the rpm's) you'll find you can throw em with more juice without having to worry about flipping em. as for throwing shorter, the way that will be most consistent with the regular throw is to not use an x-step and shorten up to 1 step or 0 steps (weight shift and pivot only). i have also done some experimentation with not finishing as strong by letting my arm follow-through without adding any force pulling through after the hit. i'm pretty sure the less steps thing is what players with more experience than i have would recommend.

blake t.

oops, was gonna post this with the other message but got a little click-happy with the mouse.

robert: i haven't thrown the 10X kc teebirds but from my experiences with the T mold, it's great for long straight throws but it doesn't fight very hard to come back when you get it anhyzer or flipped over unless you get em really high. the SE/CE TL seem a little more conducive to the anhyzer s-curve flight path as well as other discs in the mildly overstable range: eagle, cyclone, etc. i do know that the 10X stuff seems more overstable across the board so in the kc plastic they might be a little more s-curve friendly. however, the longest throws i have seen have all been with stable to understable discs thrown hyzer and lifting under their own power and then flipping over and s-curving after they've already flown a couple hundred feet. while this doesn't seem to give as much consistent D as an anhyzer s, by looking at the record holding discs over the past 5 years, the longest throws seem to favor this line. i'm sure someone that can throw much farther than i can will chime in on this though. i think christian sandstrom threw kc t's at the pro worlds d competition but if i remember correctly, he was throwing em hyzer and then having em flip and fly w/ a slight left to right straight line. not sure the line ken jarvis had on his 800' throw but maybe he'll tell us /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

blake t.

Ken told us, he used regular DX plastic. The cheap stuff.

BTL. There are several ways to tame your power. Two of the most common are to either use a more ballistic disc which will not fly as far and will also be more reliable and accurate, or throw softer. If you chose the second of these two, it's important not to change the rhythm and motion of your shot, just don't pull through with as much power. Also anticipate and feel how much power you want the disc to have. A third method which can be employed with the above two, is to take fingers (middle and ring) off the rim if you are using a power grip. This really only works if your business (pop) finger is your index. You then will have a flip the birdie grip with one finger removed and a fan grip with two removed. If you keep the same pivot and pinch point (index) your power will decrease. If you change the pivot and pinch point to the second knuckle of the middle finger which is most common with these grips, this won't work. Spike hyzers or ,gradations thereof, is another method used to tame distance.

Lowe, a question came up yesterday at the Masters about grip and distance. This is something I have glossed over before, but I think you, and others might benefit from the answer. The thumb is always in opposition to the fingers when gripping. The tip of the thumb is the weakest and the base of the thumb is the strongest. If you are gripping top bottom and having problems, try inside out, it is a much stronger grip. Top bottom means you are pushing down on the flightplate with your thumb pad against your fingers. You can instead, pull the disc into the base of your thumb, with the fingers on the inside of the rim. This is a much stronger grip, but is difficult to use on short range shots, so it has to be done appropriately.

Dave, you are truly the master!!!

Dave, thanks for the additional input. You are the E.F. Hutton of disc golf - when you speak, people listen. I've added your recent comments to your Distance Advice article, and I only wish it was that easy to add it to my game.

Since I haven't mentioned it in a while I'd like to remind everyone that my Yahoo Group "resources-dg" has the full text of this discussion in an article by Dave D in a Word document. There are also other useful resources in Word format such as a Bag Buyer's Guide, practice games, etc. To subscribe send an e-mail to: resources-dg-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Or go to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/resources-dg
Currently there are 87 members.

Dave and all,

I've been reading up on your discussions of late and have added quite a bit of spin and snap to my throws lately by gripping the disc hard at the moment of release--thanks for the hints! Keep 'em coming!

I do have one question, though. That is when you say to grip with the base of your thumb rather than the pad, this sounds and feels counter-intuitive to me. Can this be used for all grips, or simply the power grip?

(FYI--I recently changed from the power grip for all shots to the "flip the birdie" grip and have improved my accuracy 100%, but my distance has remained at ~360-375 ft.)

You also said that power decreases as you remove fingers from the rim of the disc. Is this correct or did I miss something? If this is right, then I *should* be able to get more D with the power grip?

Thanks!

Daniel, if you are using the base of your thumb, you need fingers against the inside of the rim to pull the rim into the base of your thumb. The more fingers you have doing this, the more potential strength you have. The flip the birdie grip still leaves three fingers on the rim, and depending on how strong your fingers are, it can be a powerful as well as acurate grip.

I got myself a 10x12 golf net from Memphis Net &amp; Twine and hung it up at the end of my patio so I can practice my throwing technique. It works great. I find it easier to concentrate on the finer points when I don't have to worry about chasing down and finding the discs. And I can pump out shot after shot until I get it down - or wear myself out trying.

Today, I played my first round since getting the net and in a brisk wind I shot a 60. My previous best was a 66. It seemed like on almost every hole, I was sending my drive out farther than ever before. I even had a couple of shots go sailing past the basket.

It sure makes it a lot more fun to play with a little extra distance. Thanks a lot for the tips!

Bill, is that a regular golf item? And, if you don't mind, could you tell us how much it costs, and how well you think it will hold up to the disc golf shots.

Are there any type of goals that you guys would suggest in the search for some big D? For example should you be looking to throw 350 ft. on a flat line, and then once you have that down look at throwing higher (as in more vertical) to achieve more D. I guess I am having trouble as to where I am and exactly what I need to be working on. Or should form be the only thing I need to use to gauge my skills? I feel like I have a half-way bent elbow technique - ala Schweberger in the Tar Heel videos. I start with a bent elbow and come through clean and hard, but do have some semblance of a reach back. I am having trouble visualizing the hit. I don't feel like the disc is really ripping out and I don't get an audible snap out of my hand. Everything feels very smooth and clean, which is the way that I learned. I feel like I need more of that ripping, whether it could be from a better grip, faster arm speed, or even faster hips (my guess). But maybe I do have these things correct. Without anyone to show me and say, yes you are doing it correct, I feel like I have no way of knowing if I am progressing. So maybe some distance goals would be in order. For instance, can you throw 350 ft. such and such disc on a flat line. If it is my form then maybe someone could explain the rip and what it is supposed to feel like. I have read the article that Lowe compiled and the rip is what still eludes me. Or maybe I am just not experienced enough. I have only been playing for approximately 8 months or so. But I don't think this should matter if my form is correct. Maybe it just takes some time. I'll be looking forward to any advice. Maybe I'll get that consistent 400 I'm looking for someday.

I found Memphis Net &amp; Twine on the web (http://www.memphisnet.net/SportsCatalog/Golfpage.html), and the 10x12 practice net seems like a no-brainer at $47. I am digging out my credit card as we speak /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

Thanks for the tip, Bill!

Dan,
Thanks for the link so that I can see the nets.

Dr. D,
What help would using one of these golf practice nets really give? I can see that they can help you increase your strength by making many throws in a short period of time. But you can't see if it's a good shot or not, so you don't know if repating a certain technique is beneficial. Reinforcing the wrong technique can be harmful. Would one of these nets be good is you're observed by a mentor? Would they be good to practice various aspects like the bent elbow, or pull through, etc...

You all are catching up to the champ. Juliana had a net in her basement, what, 5 years ago. I inherited it when she went on the road. Right now it's getting about as much use as my basket, which would be zero.

I will urge you to exercise caution, as Clue almost killed someone when he missed the net in an attempt to set a basement world speed record.

rodney

I was looking at the 40x20 for my back fence, just to be safe. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

Lowe, using a net can help technique if you know what you are trying to accomplish and can focus on the hit kinesthetically. Just like on the course, you need to have an ejection point in space where the disc leaves your hand. You need the feel of the power and angles the disc has as it takes off. You do not need to seewhere it goes, you need to be aware of how it leaves. The net is most useful for those of us who do not have time to go to the course during the week and want to keep in throwing shape. It is not useful to learn the characteristics of discs, distance judgement, wind play etc.

It is too early to tell much about the net's durablity but the quality looks very good. Keep in mind it is built to stop a golf ball so it should hold up fairly well. There are other companies that make golf nets and some will size them to order. Try doing a search for "practice golf nets".

Throwing a disc at a net is the same sensation as hitting a golf ball into a net. You can tell if you have made solid contact but to really see what the ball is doing you have to go to a driving range. The difference is that at a driving range some else will pick up the balls.

I find that if I focus through the net at a distant object, I get a good feeling for the accuracy of my throw. I can't tell exactly how much velocity or spin the disc has, but I know when I've thrown a good one.

I find it very easy to tweak one aspect of my throw at a time by using the net. Throwing one shot after another makes it easier for me to zero in on the perfect throw.

Of course these are just the observations of a rookie that needs a lot of practice so I'll leave it to the pros to discuss the benefits of using a net for the better players.

Curtis, the best place to concentrate is on the feel of the disc accelerating out of your hand. You should be able to feel where, when, how oriented, and how powerful as the disc rips out. All those answers are from focusing on the disc as a primary focal point. Peripheral focus goes to all the things you need to do to accommodate the discs' feel.

curtis: if you read my follow-up article it helps to conceptualize the hit. as for ripping out of your hand, if you don't get a strong finish, the disc won't rip out. without concentrating on the finish, you can probably throw just as far bent elbow as with a reach/semi-bent elbow. if you finish strong, that's when the rip really starts to happen. you will need to know the hit though before you try to finish strong or your timing will probably be off. the tipoffs that yer getting a great rip will be hearing the disc come out of your hand w/ a "ffffft" sound and probably a change in disc flight characteristics.

blake t.

Oh crap, this is the Distance Secrets thread? I didn't even see that before I posted my little cargo net name-drop. Dang.

Oh well, I guess I'll make the best of it and now claim "longest time and most posts between consecutive posts on the same thread" at 6 months and 735, respectively.

Now, back to your hit and your bent elbow.

rodney

Thanks for the advice...I'll have to check out the second article Blake. And thanks Dave, I guess I just need to concentrate on my form (I should have known) and let the rest just come to me. Unfortunately I am just impatient, I want to throw 400 yesterday. As for the disc flight changes, to what are you referring to? Are you talking about turning over certain discs or what? This might be a good idea of where I am at.

This may be a little off topic, but does anyone know how I could take videotape from a camcorder and put it on the web? Does it require a digital camera, or is there some way to sample analog video (old tapes) onto my computer. I thought I might video tape myself and try and get some help. If not then I'll just have to find someone in person who could help. Maybe I could hire Dave D. at Worlds in Houston to help me for a bit? I would love some pointers from the master himself, and would be more than willing to pay for them. Thanks again.

curtis: you can get USB video capture devices that have RCA inputs for ~$30-80.

as for the flight differences i put that in the article but to sum it up, most players throwing under 350' have a disc line that is gradual, i.e. they release it hyzer and the disc gradually flattens and levels out. if you nail it w/ a bunch of snap the disc is going to fly straight for the first portion of its flight regardless of the angle you put on it and then all of a sudden it'll flip up/over. hyzer angle will determine how far it flips but it will be sudden. my first few throws feeling the hit, i released the disc ~30 degree hyzer and it flew perfectly straight for about 150' holding that angle then all of a sudden flipped over to ~20 degree anhyzer angle.

if you've ever overpowered a putter or midrange and rolled it it'll give a sound something like that and feel like you crushed it. predicting the turnover takes some adjustment and may effect your disc selection.

blake t.

Ok. I'm getting frustrated.

I've got decent D, being able to get 360' with whatever I'm throwing from Teebirds to Valks to light FXs. (FYI, I have yet to improve distance from the straight reach back to the bent elbow.) I'm gripping tight at the moment of release, getting the snap, but I just don't feel like I'm getting a lot of power on it. I can feel that I'm bending my elbow *slightly*, but not a whole heck of a lot when I reach back. I think I'm twisting my hips, then my shoulders and then pulling my elbow through, but it's just not whipping like it should.

I use the bent-elbow throw for midranges and putters and can get well over 300' out of my rocs and just about 300' out of my KC Aviar. This, I have found, puts a bunch of spin on these discs and they need it to stay flat. But, when I try this with drivers, I can barely get the same amount of distance! I'm afraid I'm a bit clueless as to why this happens...

Dave D. or Blake--do you have any suggestions as to how I can cure this? Is it my pull through that [*****]? (FYI, I've been told by local pros here that my arm speed is really good...)

Thanks!

Daniel: my best guess if you are getting the popping sound and not feeling powerful is that your grip is tight before the hit (especially considering you are getting D great d from your mids). when i was trying this with a completely rigid forearm all the way through my D was way down but i was getting an incredibly loud pop and no juice on the disc. as for the motions, i've found that all body movement while using the bent elbow is incidental with the exception of footwork and finishing. the other possible problem may be that if you are concentrating on the whipping, the whip is not being generated in the right way. the forward momentum and whips are lead by the quickness and orientation of your feet. i.e. how far your shoulder turns during the "reach" period will depend on at what angle your cross step is facing (if your toes are 180 degrees away from the target your back will be completely turned away from the target at this point). the plant of the pivot foot at an angle closer to the target (assuming you have a clean pivot and enough momentum generated from a quick, light cross step) is the control mechanism of the hip explosion. the change in hip orientation (read as "direction of your feet") will naturally begin the opening of your lower body that leads the upper body.

basically what this comes down to is that my best guess is that you are doing something different when you are throwing drivers this way, probably caused by consciously focusing on something that is incidental and trying to exaggerate it. i'm only saying this because you get a higher midrange D/max D percentage than i can get. my roc/driver D ratio is somewhere from 65-75% whereas yours resides in the 80-90% range so there's a good chance you may be losing ~30' of your current D potential somewhere.

Dave: i was experimenting a little bit the other day with starting with the wrist more "open" (if a cocked wrist has the palm closer to the inside of the forearm, an open wrist has the palm away from the inner forearm and has the knuckles closer to the outter forearm). this seems to increase the potential for tendon bounce but also looks like it could decrease consistency and control. any comments on that?

blake t.

Depending on the driver, and your particular throwing technique, you may simply be showing face with the driver, due to a difference in disc depth. Some of the people I play with regularly have this problem alot.... they throw a putter and even a mid well, but drivers, they point them up, and the disc dies shorter than it should, falling left. My best guess is that the disc being "thin" messes with their grip: when you load your wrist, try cocking your wrist up a touch (and the leading edge of the disc down).

Just guessing