2 minutes at 9:30.

See you then.

Yeah scores are Up, what happened to Coda, looks like he had a real bad day.

scores?????

I had an alright day till the last 2 holes of the tournament.

I shot 6 over at the WINDY Z this morning and was just 1 down with 2 holes left to go on the back side of Weatherford.

the it suddently happened. I could not find the line. 5 missed 20ft putts on the last 2 holes to finish up 4 over (or 10 over for the day)

I wish I could blame it on the wind, but I was TOO close for wind to be a factor (that and my putts didn't even come close to the basket)

Next tournament for me will be in March, I think I better start practicing my putts.

Who won?

1. Barry
2. Nolan
3. SMITTY
3. Yeti
5. Eric
5. Dagon

thanks emac :cool:

Here are the scores. (http://www.pdga.com/tournament/tournament_results.php?TournID=5468#Open)

I will post a full report of the event later.

WAY TO GO DEANO!!!! :cool:

How come the final 9 is rated?

Smitty! Nice run! Nate? Where are you Nate? Anyone seen Nate? All the Lubbock Lee's cash...I think all Lubbock players cashed for that matter.

How come the final 9 is rated?

It should't be but I wish it was. On two of the three holes I missed I was only 20'-25' away but diractly behind a tree with no putt. :D

I was a fun tournament and the only bad thing was getting home at 2 in the morning. :confused:

[QUOTE]
the only bad thing was getting home at 2 in the morning. :confused:



yeah? Well at least you don't have to get up and go to work in the morning. ;)

How come the final 9 is rated?

it should.t be but I wish it was.

its and unofficial rating, and will not go into the official update. especially the ADV pool! :D

I really enjoyed getting to meet you Pat.
Wish I could have stuck around but my ride chose to make an early departure for home.

How you play in those sandals is beyond me. :o

Thanks Maceman! Great event,would recommend it to anyone. Just make sure to bring your game! The long tees/holes at Z Boaz is tough!

Deano...

BORO!!! BORO!!!!!

Cliff notes of the skins match? Anyone? I had to get home to the family.......and to a little football game. :D

Way to go DV!

All I heard was Barry and Danielle pulled in $300!!!

Burl and Smitty won $600 after a bunch of playoff holes with Des and Yeti

I was a fun tournament and the only bad thing was getting home at 2 in the morning. :confused:

[/QUOTE]

No joke on this one. Just my two cents but next time try to take the out of towners into consideration. Some of us do have jobs we would like to keep. Awesome final! I would stay till midnight to see a final like that one. The other three hours of getting payout to leave, not awesome at all.

Also, ams payout. I know we used part of our payout for the player's packs. That's fine. I just thought that you would try to make it more rewarding for the ams divisions to promote the sport a little more. I've played multiple c-tier events with less people in my division with bigger payouts. After all this is an A-tier. There were 100 or so ams in this event and to me this was just a little bit of an under appreciated feeling. I mean considering that we are the bulk of your players I would think that you would want to keep us motivated to come back. If you think that I'm complaining about the payout because I didn't get a whole bunch of stuff then that is your opinion. For first place to barely get his money back for any division something is wrong, player's pack or no players pack. Like I said before it is an A-tier. :confused:

the payout is not Mace's fault...in the new year you will see this more and more...the PDGA has a new payout plan that most ams are not going to like...a $45 entry will put about $20 in the payout and then you have to pay flat and deep...enjoy

you paid $50 for this one...and about $20 made it to the payout...$20 went the players pack...and the other $10 goes to the PDGA and any other fees like park usage...$521 paid out to over 50% of the field(13 out of 25 got paid) looks like Mace was right on...wait till you play "C" tier this year :o

you paid $50 for this one...and about $20 made it to the payout...$20 went the players pack...and the other $10 goes to the PDGA and any other fees like park usage...$521 paid out to over 50% of the field(13 out of 25 got paid) looks like Mace was right on...wait till you play "C" tier this year :o



$11 came out in fees to PDGA, EDGE, Series Fees, etc. all which was mentioned in the players meeting and posted above the payouts for all to read. The Players packs for Ams was a nice T-shirt(wicking) $15, Star SL $17. Over $30 and less than 2/3 taken out from payout. As Mitch says the payouts are much flatter this year.

The Pros got a free burrito from Chipotle and none was taken out of their payout, not to mention the other amenities for all players after the first day :cool:

Then obviously this is just a case we can chalk up to misunderstanding. I was unaware of the new pdga payouts. If that is how its run then I can't realy say anything.

Question; What makes this an A-tier event for ams? I can't find anything on this in the PDGA website. I probably just don't know where to look.

in that case Mace added $346 to the MA2 payout...very nice :D

flatter and deeper and they wonder why people dont RENEW or DO NOT want to Sanction their events anymore :confused:

flatter and deeper and they wonder why people dont RENEW or DO NOT want to Sanction their events anymore :confused:



exactly...nothing like winning and getting less than it cost to play :confused: (not this weekend, but some C's and B's)

flatter and deeper and they wonder why people dont RENEW or DO NOT want to Sanction their events anymore :confused:



Thank you Chris! All I was saying was that for an am it isn't worth playing PDGA events until you are a pro. We might as well just play mini's until we are good enough to move up to pro. What is the motivation for an am to play an event? If we are to grow the sport and keep more people playing how can we accomplish this in the lower leagues? Paying deep good, paying flat sorry. The first and second place got paid the same at this tourney. If payout is a reward then make it a reward. Like I said I was unaware of the PDGA standards changing on this issue. I just don't see the logic in it. I know you have heard ams in the past b!tch about payout. I'm just trying to straighten out in my head how this all comes together in the great scheme of things to help grow the sport.

Actually, PDGA sanctioned a record number of events again last year, and membership numbers are up this year over this time last year, despite the mailings going out 2 weeks later than last year.

Flatter and deeper payouts is also what players across the country have consistently asked for in the last couple of surveys, and that includes the pro divisions as well.

Chap

where would todays tournies be without am's?? we are the bulk of the player base yet the most taken for granted!! :confused:

Good players packs, contests, CTPs. etc. and trophies for AM. It should be 100% about fun for AM divs.

Want more payout and less fun? Go pro.

But of course, I never win so my opinion don't count :D

well if anyone runs a "c" tier this year and uses the new PDGA guidelines...MA2 and 3 will be playing for trophies and a players pack and MA1 will not get much payout(which will have to be paid deep and flat)

Thank you John C. I was about to say that too.

Also, Both weekend events had more players than last year. This weekend filled up the feild (plus 2 or 3)

At the PIO, the field was WAY over filled.

Only the midweek even had a small turnout. (32 players?) BUT that is in line with how many showed up last year.

And PRO's did get a players pack. I got a T-shirt the first weekend and a Towel and borrito buck this weekend.

But I have to admit, I am not a big fan of the new PDGA payout tables or entry fee charts.

This is somewhat interesting

North Texas Opener MA1 - 23 players C-Tier - 1st place $100 or $105 (not listed but I got something close to that - last years payout schedule)

Poison Ivy Open MA1 - 35 players - C-Tieir - 1st place $110

Cedar Hill MA1 - 38 players - B-Tier - 1st place $110

Z Boaz MA1 - 58 players - A-Tier - 1st place $125

Flatter doesn't equal better IMO

I didn't take into account players packs for Cedar Hill and Z-Boaz though

The PDGA payout table pays 1st place about 3 time your entry fee!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

so it doesn't matter how many are in your field, you are going to win about the same either way.

Flatter doesn't equal better IMO



Thats the truth, and I am not a fan of the players pack either.

This is somewhat interesting

North Texas Opener MA1 - 23 players C-Tier - 1st place $100 or $105 (not listed but I got something close to that - last years payout schedule)

Poison Ivy Open MA1 - 35 players - C-Tieir - 1st place $110

Cedar Hill MA1 - 38 players - B-Tier - 1st place $110

Z Boaz MA1 - 58 players - A-Tier - 1st place $125

Flatter doesn't equal better IMO



wow , that is terrible!! I guess the days of the traveling am will be chocked to death by these new hideous guidelines!! :confused: At least there are minis 7 days a week around here!! :p

BTW, the pay schedule for Novice/Rec have been about 3X for several years. Now they have it for the higher up divisions too.

Was there bonus cash for any players? I noticed 3rd in Womens Open got more than 2nd, or is it a typo?
!!!Congrats on a Huge Turnout!!!

Not a fan of the player's pack either, it's like that yellow participation ribbon, back in the track and field days.

maybe they added the skins payout!!

it was a typo
they gave her the wrong check and everything.

Rec $280
Total Payout $53

Int $1,250
Total Payout $521

Out of both of these divisions a total of $1,530 was paid in to play, with a total payout of $574. That�s a difference of $956...

No love for these two divisions! Kind of Lame!

I would rather have trophies! I know I wouldnt travel to play in the Am divisions.

VERY LAME!!! :p

I'm traveling to a $25 entry fee B-tier this coming weekend, and I know full well that the payout is going to be 1 disc to the top third or top quarter with 1st-3rd getting one or two more each.

And it will be loads of fun and (almost) everyone will have a great time.

did you add in the players package?

Wouldn't it only be fair to add the players pack and t-shirt value before being critical.

For everyone else, there is always divisions you can play for more money. Those options are out there.

I agree with Rhett, Knowing the pay out now.
These events are not for payout, they're for fun at the am level, if you're in it for money, move on up, that might be the whole idea of the flat deep scale payouts.

Wouldn't it only be fair to add the players pack and t-shirt value before being critical.




players packs are a way of forcing someone that plays in a tourney to buy what ever you want to sell them at what ever price you want to charge whether they want it or not!!The more I think about it the worse it sounds!!Basically , if you want to play in a tournament you are forced to purchase a players pack!! so to answer your question, not really!!

players packs are a way of forcing someone that plays in a tourney to buy what ever you want to sell them at what ever price you want to charge whether they want it or not!!The more I think about it the worse it sounds!!Basically , if you want to play in a tournament you are forced to purchase a players pack!! so to answer your question, not really!!


That is exactly what am payout is, too!!! Forced sales to the am division. Many times you do not even get to pick your payout!

I really enjoyed getting to meet you Pat.
Wish I could have stuck around but my ride chose to make an early departure for home.

How you play in those sandals is beyond me. :o

yeah i was good to meet the OKies in the division. i understand about the ride thing. as far as the sandals go, i can gaurantee chacos offer better foot support and overall better disc golf shoe than 99.9% of the shoes out there this weekend. they were made for this!

Wouldn't it only be fair to add the players pack and t-shirt value before being critical.




players packs are a way of forcing someone that plays in a tourney to buy what ever you want to sell them at what ever price you want to charge whether they want it or not!!The more I think about it the worse it sounds!!Basically , if you want to play in a tournament you are forced to purchase a players pack!! so to answer your question, not really!!



Boom...you hit the nail on the coffin. Not only is that what the player's pack is seen as (at least by seasoned players, not newbies), but inflated entry fees are seen that way too. You're "forced" to pay a high fee, white a whole lot of return...except for the top couple of people, you're basically just "buying plastic." Here's what I wrote in the "Paying out your Ams" thread...I really think the PDGA should make this a large-scale member vote before them up and change something like that.

"I'm unsure if I like the new flatter payout structures for ALL divisions. I thought it was seen as beneficial to have Advanced divisions on a steeper scale, so that Intermediate players would be encouraged to move up.

Here's what definitely there SHOULD be for Ams at a tournament:
--Trophies for first, second, and third for each division (I really like using personalized metal mini's for trophies; it's something you can use and doesn't get shoved in a closet)
--Player's packs for all rec players, possibly intermediate players (maybe different value). No player's pack for advanced. If there must be one, do a voucher so the player can pick his own; something useful. If t-shirts are to be used as part of the player's pack, they should be covered with sponsorships. For heavy tournament-playing players, they don't want $10-15 of every entry fee going towards a t-shirt. I don't have many tourney shirts that I'd consider wearing (because I don't like the color or design is weird), so maybe that's why I'm biased. I do have two sweet Mr. Jim's Open shirts that I proudly wear ('03 and '05).
--Payout in merchandise for at LEAST the top 3, but no more than top 35%. I do think that paying out prizes to amateurs is a good way to expose them to products. If it is seen that entry fees are too high, cut them in 1/2 or 1/3, and have the payout only go to the top 3. If done though, I'd make it announced beforehand!

I know top 3 (even top 5) might not be accepted by many, but think about what happens. You pay $25 (instead of the usual $50) for an entry. If there are 20 players, that's $500 total. -$200 for player packs for giving out vouchers/credit, and -$100 for player fees. If there are other fees and tournament costs, they should be absorbed with sponsorship money. The profits on disc sales should go back to the club to use how it sees fit. Now you're left with $200. Pay it out 50%/30%/20%, or 30%/25%/20%/15%/10%. That way everyone gets at least $10 towards a disc, and if they were in it for more plastic, use the $25 that you saved and get 3 discs for the $25 + $10 voucher. You still have a pretty decent payout for those that cashed, and those that didn't have much more money in their pocket to play in another tournament. Paying out half the field on such a flat scale with inflated entry fees only forces the cashing players to "puchase" more plastic. "

you hit the nail on the coffin.



A google search of that phrase only produced 1200 or 1400 hits. However, a google search for "hit the nail on the head" weighs in heavily at 1.3 MILLION hits.

That's a lot of nailheads. :D

if the're not for payout then why payout at all. you guys are getting away from what I started saying in the first place. Why would ams want to play PDGA if they get the same from a mini minus the $37+ dollar payers pack that we paid for, for everyone. I would rather play a c teir and not get a player's pack. Most c-tiers are half of what I paid to get into z-boaz. If this is an A tier then the add cash should be that and not penalized by the "Player's Pack." Why don't you put the added cash to pay for the "Player's Pack" and give us back more of what we put in. I would rather buy a disc that I need then get a disc I can't use and a dark blue shirt to wear in texas (90-110 degree weather with the sun beating down on you) that doesn't even have anything to do with the tournament I played in. Big Show?

sounds like the final nail in the head to me :D

Rec $280
Total Payout $53

Int $1,250
Total Payout $521

Out of both of these divisions a total of $1,530 was paid in to play, with a total payout of $574. That�s a difference of $956...

No love for these two divisions! Kind of Lame!

I would rather have trophies! I know I wouldnt travel to play in the Am divisions.



Wrong wrong wrong

Ok Lets start with Rec

8 players at $35 per player - $4 PDGA fee - $4 to charity - $3 to the finals = $192

What the players got
Minimum $25 players pack + $53 in MaceMan Bucks + 1st place personalized metal mini = That is at least $268 in payout. (or $76 added to the division)

Int
25 players @ $50 ($39 after fees) = $975
Total payout (players packs, payouts + trophy) = $1161

or $186 added

Advanced men
$3132 entry fees
$3563 paid out to field
$431 added

Then you get to the pro payouts.

$89 + trophy & small players pack to GM's
$145 + Trophy & small players pack to Masters
$554 + Trophy & small players pack to Open Pro.
Womens winning are messed up so I skipped that one)

Pretty good in my book

Did Pro's get players packs? I didn't...... :(

Is this the KCWO thread? :p

Was there bonus cash for any players? I noticed 3rd in Womens Open got more than 2nd, or is it a typo?
!!!Congrats on a Huge Turnout!!!



That was a typo. Third place was actually $215.

Ah, you just played in the Big Show, that is what the T-shirt was for. BTW, I love the shirt I got, I will just not be wearing it in the heat of the summer. My favorate disc golf shirts are all black. (or worn out)

Did Pro's get players packs? I didn't...... :(



Yea, these days when the TD says "pick up your players packages over there" most of us cash players don't think of asking if we get one too.

I asked if Masters got anything and was supprised at the answer. 1st time I got a players package in a while. :D

I got a T-shirt for Cedar Hill and a Towel from ZBoaz. (and that borrito buck that I have not used yet)

nice golf this weekend B. :D

Mace, I had a great time this week. 1st time I have played a 2 day event in 3 1/2 years and I did 2 back to back.

They were all the best MaceMan events I have been too. You just keep getting better and better each year.

Sorry the thread has been highjacked by a PDGA thing moreso than a tournament thing.

I don't think I am going to make the Cedar Hill Match play, but you can count on me making it out to Samuel Crawford in April. (that will be #5 :D)

Mace also annouced that trophies will be mailed out with the winners names on them.
Last year I got a nice Metal Mini that had the tourney's name, what I placed and my name on the bottom. Too pretty to use!
Don't forget that you will be getting those too.

Mace and Staff: Thank you for running a great tournament, the turnout was fabulous and the weather turned out nice...my only complaint about the z-boaz open would be playing the Weatherford Course twice, but I understand with Pros and Ams playing the same weekend it would be impossible for Amateurs to play Z-Boaz more than 1-1/2 times.

PJ Fry's band (Sally Majestic) rocked the F****in house on Saturday night at the Rec Room. If we are lucky, Sally Majestic just might perform at Tulsa Worlds.

My golf game is in shambles right now, I def have some practice sessions ahead of me. Though I did have the pleasure of playing golf with some of my favorite dudes to play golf with:

Guillermo Avalos
PJ Fry
Brad Bishop
Jake Regeir
Wagle
Big Dave
Tommy T.
Tim Payne
Gilbert
Rotan
J. Bougher
David Landis

The flat payout and everything may be a PDGA thing, but the getting home after 8:30 when it's a 20-minute drive isn't. I'm not sure what the hold up was at CH (and from what I heard at Z-Boaz too), but I've played plenty of events with the same number of players, and we were on the road by 6 almost every time.

Well, I don't know any of you...this was my first tournament outside of Oklahoma. Let me just start by saying that I had a wonderful time. I am an Am woman, and I finished 2nd in Intermediate (would've finished 2nd in Adv too, but I'm stupid!) I received, in addition to my player's pack, a $35 payout. With that, I got 1 champion, 1 star plastic disc, and a mini, which I thought was pretty good. The payout, from what I can remember, was comparable to my payout at the Oklahoma Open last year, which is the only other A Tier I've played. In that tourney, however, I won Intermediate in a field of only two. My only suggestion, from my point of view, is to have some lighter weight discs. Most Am women throw 150-160 discs. Other than that, again, I had a great time, and I look forward to going back next year! Z-Boaz is a fabulous course!

The first event I ever played was Z Boaz, three years ago. I came down with three other players. They all cashed, which was great. I finished my last round at 3:30 but since they had cashed it was 9:30 before we could leave and almost 3:00am before I got home. :mad:

Now, three years later, it still the exact same way.

I want to thank Mace for a great event and I had a fantastic time but knowiing it was a Mace event we knew what to prepare for. We had already agreed, should any one cash, too bad, we are going home after the last round, no matter what.

I'm not complaining about the pay out, that has never been a factor for me to attend an event. Its all about the competition and there was plenty of it this weekend. I know I walked away with my butt in hand. :o

But, there needs to be something done about players finishing at 4 and not being able to get their stuff and leave before 9:30. Something has got to be done about that. I don't know what it is though but surley there is a way to get them on the road sooner. Maybe do away with the final nine and just play three rounds of 18?
I know thats what we decided to do. We took our first DNF's just because we knew it was 7 hours for my buddy to get home and it wasn't worth staying an extra 8 hours for our final nine, the pro final nine, the announcements, the awards, then the payouts. it was worth WAY more to us to be home before sun up the next day. ;)


But we're old too.

I was at work by 4:30 on Sunday :D But then I didn't cash either :o

(I did cash in on the Superbowl though, best Sunday night ever)

I also had a great time, Competition was awesome, met a lot of cool people, and had a blast. I�m looking forward to the next one. Maybe next time I'll have learned how to putt.

Is this the KCWO thread? :p



Amen...can't wait until the KCWO this year..you will have to buy your own first place awards since they screw the AM's EVERY YEAR

Mace,
Thanks for putting on such a good event.
All 7 of our Gateway sponsored players that attended thought the event was well run and that the courses were really nice.

We had 3 pros in the top 10 and my Nephew Nikko came back fro 21st to tied for 7th in advanced with Devan Owens another team player! ( I think).
I believe Justin Bunnell and Nikko left before getting their cash and prizes.
Can you call or email me so I can tell you what to send for Nikko's $98.00.

Thanks for having some of the Gateway products on hand at the event, we have already heard from a few Texas guys who were at the event about our new E plastic and some of the tye dyed stuff.

Hopefully you went through some of it at prize out and will replenish your stock before your next event.

I will be around all day and night, so call when you get a chance.

Thanks again for from all of us at Gateway! :cool:

Just do like me and twoputt and on some holes three and fourputt. :o:D

from another player who doesn't use the board anymore, but had a few goog points:


The flatter payout does suck. There�s no reward for being in the top 3. When I originally started I remember them telling me it was that way in Novice as it was there to encourage more players to start the game or continue if they had just started by more people getting something from the tournament, but that was only for Novice. When you change your those same rules to apply to players who have been playing golf for awhile, they don�t care about getting 1 or 2 discs per tournament they go to, especially since that doesn�t even cover what they paid to play. They need to go back to making it worthwhile to be in the top 3 or 5, besides bragging rights. We are paying a lot of money to play.

if you think the #'s are up this year for renewal and tourney participation than I will GURANTEE they wont be next year with these LAME PDGA Ideas. oh yea it was the players who wanted this. PLEEASSE sure does not sound like the AM players wanted this. Yet another PDGA idea gone BAD.

Hey chris, This kind of makes the sanctioning issue a no brainer now, huh??

fo sure!!!

I bet it fills , as well!! :D

Be careful with that prediction. To the best of my knowledge, these events were full.

But, there needs to be something done about players finishing at 4 and not being able to get their stuff and leave before 9:30. Something has got to be done about that. I don't know what it is though but surley there is a way to get them on the road sooner.



What about online checkouts? Players can stay until the bats go to sleep at dawn to pick up their prize, or they can go home right after their last hole and checkout via the internet. The only catch would be......you would have to pay for shipping if you chose to leave and checkout online.

Thoughts?

Be careful with that prediction. To the best of my knowledge, these events were full.



I am not talking about this event!! :p

But it is only February...the rest of the year may take some hits due to the new payout schedule...

All of these posts - IMO - don't have anything to do with Mace doing anything wrong..he was just following the payout tables, but the PDGA needs to take a look at this from the largest disc golf state in the Nation

I'll still be at CH at the end of the month for NON-SANCTIONED MATCH PLAY :D

That's a good idea. You should start a company like that. ;)

Shhhhhhhhhhhhhh. :D

The first event I ever played was Z Boaz, three years ago. I came down with three other players. They all cashed, which was great. I finished my last round at 3:30 but since they had cashed it was 9:30 before we could leave and almost 3:00am before I got home. :mad:

Now, three years later, it still the exact same way.

I want to thank Mace for a great event and I had a fantastic time but knowiing it was a Mace event we knew what to prepare for. We had already agreed, should any one cash, too bad, we are going home after the last round, no matter what.

I'm not complaining about the pay out, that has never been a factor for me to attend an event. Its all about the competition and there was plenty of it this weekend. I know I walked away with my butt in hand. :o

But, there needs to be something done about players finishing at 4 and not being able to get their stuff and leave before 9:30. Something has got to be done about that. I don't know what it is though but surley there is a way to get them on the road sooner. Maybe do away with the final nine and just play three rounds of 18?
I know thats what we decided to do. We took our first DNF's just because we knew it was 7 hours for my buddy to get home and it wasn't worth staying an extra 8 hours for our final nine, the pro final nine, the announcements, the awards, then the payouts. it was worth WAY more to us to be home before sun up the next day. ;)


But we're old too.



I would like to see TDs go the route of Des Moines Worlds. Cash out and get a certificate online to use at the online store for that event. Stipulation is: you pay your own shipping. The problem with that idea, how many people would have stuck around to watch the skins match?

Didn't see John beat me to that idea.

but the PDGA needs to take a look at this from the largest disc golf state in the Nation




Well, you heard the competition director say it was the result of a survey. So, apparently, there are a number of people that are fine with the idea. I'm all for everyone trying to get more value for their entry, but ams continually stating that payouts should be higher ought to think about playing pro.

I would like to see TDs go the route of Des Moines Worlds. Cash out and get a certificate online to use at the online store for that event. Stipulation is: you pay your own shipping. The problem with that idea, how many people would have stuck around to watch the skins match?



It's a great idea to have people watch a 9-hole skins match, but unless a lot of scores-tabulating and prize-prepping work is being done behind the scenes at the same time that otherwise would have been done anyway, you shouldn't force players to wait around that long just so there's an audience. People have families that they've already abandoned for 4 rounds of golf.

Just moving up to Pro has nothing to do with the payout in my opinion - it is skill level first and foremost

I don't need plastic as is the case with most MA1 and probably MA2's...but we would like to be rewarded more for playing well...

when I moved up to MA1 I realized I wouldn't cash at every single event even when I sucked like I was able to in MA2.

What about just /4 of the top payout in MA1?

John - good idea of course and one I tried to pitch to Himing years ago and yes...the shipping is the clincher

disc golf is one of the only sports that pays there Am's in merchandice too.

We have gone over that many times.

at 10K races, you pay $10-$20 average, get a T-shirt and get to run for fun.

then there are Foosball tournaments, only the Masters play for cash winnings. (these cash winnings are already stated BEFORE the tournament even starts, like the Japan Open)

Entries for these events can get up to $100 for a Worlds event. (there is also usually an Open division that is paid out like we do)

Then there are golf tournaments, these you can pay $100 or more to play in for one round and not be playing for anything other than trophies.

John - good idea of course and one I tried to pitch to Himing years ago and yes...the shipping is the clincher



Right on. I remember Chris doing that once.....or at least i think i do. :D

That's the kicker. You go home to your family right after your 72nd hole, it's going to cost you $5-10 to ship your prize(s)....unless you win a basket. :eek:

its all about the SKINS audience and the TOURING PRO. I am been saying that for 3 years now. SCREW the AM..the next set of players.

and Discgolfdog can't you and myhero talk over the cubicles :D

I'm all for everyone trying to get more value for their entry, but ams continually stating that payouts should be higher ought to think about playing pro.



Needs repeating.

oh man that would be nice to get paid out in some golf clubs, I'll take an R7 Taylor Made, two of those scotty camerons, oh an throw in a head cover.

I don't need plastic as is the case with most MA1 and probably MA2's...but we would like to be rewarded more for playing well...




Isn't this kind of contradictory. The greater reward would come in form of more plastic, which you have stated that you don't need.

Besides, kind of lost in all this criticism is that the advanced field was 60 something people. That is a pretty healthy sign.

Had I known I was done after three rounds and known that I could check out on line(if I cashed, which I didn't), We would have stayed for the final nine skins match and still been back in Oklahoma before 9:00pm.

I think that the combination of 3 rounds of 18, then the skins match, along with on line check out would be fine.
I wouldn't mind paying shipping for my winnings (if I had any :mad:) but I'm the type that would justify the costs for shipping to off set the time saved in travel back home.

I don't need plastic as is the case with most MA1 and probably MA2's...but we would like to be rewarded more for playing well...




Isn't this kind of contradictory. The greater reward would come in form of more plastic, which you have stated that you don't need.

Besides, kind of lost in all this criticism is that the advanced field was 60 something people. That is a pretty healthy sign.



Not really..guess I wish the trophy only division had more interest starting back last year

as for comparing with other sports do we want to be the SAME?...bring on a handi-capping system and I will play Pro all events

Dead horse beating done :D

Adam, there is interest in Trophy only options (within the AM divisions). The TDs don't because they're afraid they'll lose money.

If I knew I would be cutting my entry fees in half, that would be more money to spend on sponsorships...

Had I known I was done after three rounds and known that I could check out on line(if I cashed, which I didn't), We would have stayed for the final nine skins match and still been back in Oklahoma before 9:00pm.

I think that the combination of 3 rounds of 18, then the skins match, along with on line check out would be fine.
I wouldn't mind paying shipping for my winnings (if I had any :mad:) but I'm the type that would justify the costs for shipping to off set the time saved in travel back home.



Great idea. Now someone run with it!!!

It sounds to me like there are two simple solutions (3 if you combine them).

1. Go back to steeper scale with rec flat, intermediate steeper, and Advanced steepest
2. Cut the entry fee (also cut out the player's pack down) in half. Yeah it's a flat payout, but you saved 1/2 the fee...go play another event.
3. Do both. Low entry fee, with very steep, but exclusive payout, getting flatter for rec and intermediate. Yeah it only pays the top 25% or so, but again, you saved $25. If you really wanted plastic, spend the $25 on that or try again. This allows for a small players pack if need be.

But, there needs to be something done about players finishing at 4 and not being able to get their stuff and leave before 9:30. Something has got to be done about that. I don't know what it is though but surley there is a way to get them on the road sooner.



What about online checkouts? Players can stay until the bats go to sleep at dawn to pick up their prize, or they can go home right after their last hole and checkout via the internet. The only catch would be......you would have to pay for shipping if you chose to leave and checkout online.

Thoughts?

is that the way we're gonna do it for the Fat Man Dancing Doubles Tour?

Why are they afraid they will lose money?

Or is the fact they make money from the Ams and they don't want to lose it?

Just asking.

is that the way we're gonna do it for the Fat Man Dancing Doubles Tour?



We need to get that going........ :D :D

T-minus 23 weeks until retirement from Disc Golf...I think someone has finally become ashamed to be seen with disc golfers :o

Why are they afraid they will lose money?

Or is the fact they make money from the Ams and they don't want to lose it?
Just asking.



BINGO!!!

Why are they afraid they will lose money?

Or is the fact they make money from the Ams and they don't want to lose it?
Just asking.




BINGO!!!

:o

Did you see that big Escalade and Hummer that Mace has been driving for the past couple of years off the back of the Ams
:o

PAHLEEZE

:D

???all I ever see him drive is #$*&$! old crappy van that is falling apart. I mean he even had to borrow a truck to pull that borrowed trailer with a TON of plastic in it.

I've never seen Brian Mace driving anything other than his van...Brian is only following the guidelines that the PDGA set forth for A-Tiers, give the guy a break.

Besides, Brad Bishop is the one who drives the Hummer...Brian pays Brad big bucks for helping out with his tournaments :p :p :p :p :p :p :p :p

Just becauce he is not rich does not mean he is not making money off us. This is just a statement! Someone is gonna make money off us, thats just how things work.

Why are they afraid they will lose money?

Or is the fact they make money from the Ams and they don't want to lose it?
Just asking.




BINGO!!!

:o

Did you see that big Escalade and Hummer that Mace has been driving for the past couple of years off the back of the Ams
:o

PAHLEEZE

:D



Did anyone even remotely say anything about TD's making huge quantities of money?? absolutely not!! However it is undeniable that am entries do ,in fact, contribute heavily to tournament proceeds!!why the sarcasm, seriously?? Is it a defense mechanism?? many people were obviously unhappy about certain things and they voiced their opinion!!Is it wrong to voice one's opinion? I would certainly hope not!! If people did not voice their opinion the world would be in shambles!! Let's be realistic !!

ok let us think really hard...where does all of the money spent on disc golf go...#1 we know the TD's are not rich... #2 some goes to charities...#3 some to the "pro" players(but not much they did not pay in)...so where could the rest go?

I was only asking a question, that still hasn't been answered.


Why are the TDs afraid of losing money on Trophy only for Ams?

As an Am, I would still pay, lets say $25-$30 for a good tournament, knowing I only have a chance at a trophy for 1st -4th. If I want a shirt, I will buy one, if I need plastic, I will buy that also.

Couldn't a TD make a fair profit with this type of situation?

As an example, I played in the Adv Master division. There were 18 players x $30 =$540. This doesn't consider any PDGA or player fees, so for argument, lets call it $19 x 18=$342. Trophies shopuldn't run more that $25 each, thats a $100 of of the $342., leaving him a $242 profit from 18 players.
Or about $13 per player. If the TD only made $10 per player, would that be enough?

I am not a TD, this is why I ask.
I am a player that enjoys the competition and will pay for the chance at it. This weekend cost me $70 with the Ace pot, I would have payed at least $40 for the same tourny with no players pack and trophie only.

Maybe I'm different than the majority, I am an Am and I believe the current structure corrupts the Am division.

ok let us think really hard...where does all of the money spent on disc golf go...#1 we know the TD's are not rich... #2 some goes to charities...#3 some to the "pro" players(but not much they did not pay in)...so where could the rest go?


It goes to pay for the tournament expenses so that the pro purse can be bigger.

Tournaments are measured on the size of the pro purse, and also on how much 1st place takes home. This shouldn't be, but it is.

If you don't have the retail/wholesale markup on the am prizes then you have to pay for park permits and trophies and truck rentals and food with money from somewhere else. The more of those things that are paid merch markup the better the pro payout.

Efrain,

No defense mechanism. I was trying to inject some humor into this throughly beaten horse. :D

What I'm saying is that the Maces have been working hard for Disc Golf. That is all :cool:

Very true - it is a very thankless job that most people do not want to do...at least we have great TD's like Mace to allow us to enjoy golf with hundreds of other players and friends

So, the answer is, the more money or profit you can make from the Ams, the more you can offset your expenses and give to the pros?

Is that about it?
:confused: :confused: :confused:

That is the problem with the system. Not enough sponsors or desire to obtain sponsors for the Pro divisions. I can understand now.............., why get sponsors when you can have the Am divisions become you sponsor for the pros?

Simple enough. :confused:

Very true - it is a very un-thankful job tha most people do not want to do...at least we have great TD's like Mace to allow us to enjoy golf with hundreds of other players and friends




very true. ;)


This whole topic is not about Mace but the faults with the system. Mace does a great job and I have had nothing but the best times at his tournaments. Other than feeling like crap on Monday due to travel but that was my choice.


Thank you Mace.

I'm in for trophy-only, and I don't win often enough to have big piles of discs lying around...I just enjoy the competition. So bring it on, Murph...I got a dollah, you got a Comet? :D

ok let us think really hard...where does all of the money spent on disc golf go...#1 we know the TD's are not rich... #2 some goes to charities...#3 some to the "pro" players(but not much they did not pay in)...so where could the rest go?


It goes to pay for the tournament expenses so that the pro purse can be bigger.

Tournaments are measured on the size of the pro purse, and also on how much 1st place takes home. This shouldn't be, but it is.

If you don't have the retail/wholesale markup on the am prizes then you have to pay for park permits and trophies and truck rentals and food with money from somewhere else. The more of those things that are paid merch markup the better the pro payout.



so the PDGA lowered the am fees and thus lowered the payout...making it harder on a TD to cover expenses and put on a quality event...that was well thought out...glad I am not a TD this year :o

So, the answer is, the more money or profit you can make from the Ams, the more you can offset your expenses and give to the pros?

Is that about it?





Yes, the myth that all the money is going to the pros. Hate to enlighten people, but the majority of pro purses have little to no money added. Next scapegoat, step right up.

They lowered Am entry fees, kept the player pack requirements the same for A & B Tiers, and flattened the payout a little more. No more big step from 1st to 2nd. Little steps all the way down. Winning doesn't get you a boat load of stuff anymore, and coming second is nearly as good as winning.

I was $15 off of Charles ($125 - $110) in second.

Part of the problem with the payout for he lower divisions is the fact it's an A-Tier with the required $25 player pack, When the entry fee is near $25, and you take out a $25 player pack, it does not leave much to payout the players with,

ok let us think really hard...where does all of the money spent on disc golf go...#1 we know the TD's are not rich... #2 some goes to charities...#3 some to the "pro" players(but not much they did not pay in)...so where could the rest go?


It goes to pay for the tournament expenses so that the pro purse can be bigger.

Tournaments are measured on the size of the pro purse, and also on how much 1st place takes home. This shouldn't be, but it is.

If you don't have the retail/wholesale markup on the am prizes then you have to pay for park permits and trophies and truck rentals and food with money from somewhere else. The more of those things that are paid merch markup the better the pro payout.




Then how do you explain Rhett's statement?

If there is no money to be made on the Ams, then why do it?

I think that every TD needs to make profit for his time.

So, I ask all of the TDs out there. How much per player is a fair profit for you to run a tournamnet?

$10?
$15?
$20?
$25?

How much?


Lets get down to what this really is about.............Profit.
Thats what any business is about. I am just asking how much do you need to make from each player to make it worth your time?

Rhett's statement is probably true, for some tournaments, but it is certainly not a widespread phenomenon, as many people like to think.

The obvious truths are:

There is little outside money coming into tourneys. Sponsorship is difficult to gain;

TDs/clubs generally want a financial incentive for their effort; and

Everyone thinks that they are getting ripped off. Ams and pros alike.

My opinion is that when you look at those three truths, only one can realistically change. IMO, players of all divisions need to reassess how much they think they "deserve." If they are unsatisfied with that amount that they get, then they should only play casually. The PDGA should let those people drop out. The sport would be much healthier and better positioned for real growth.

I think you're still talking Gross and not Net.

From what I've seen, the goal of most TDs is to make enough profit from disc sales and Am payout to fully cover the tournament expenses. That alone is quite often impossible.


I would really like to see a detailed cost sheet from a few tournaments. Just to give an example of how much staples, paper, scoring pencils, and inverters cost. Start counting it up, and it takes a lot of cash to put on a large event.

nah, we just borrow everything we need from you Duke :D:p (tents, PA, inverter, scoring program, grunt work)

Most TD's lose money running events. Most I know put just about everything that comes from the AMs into fees and the pro purse. I would bet that very few even make $2 per player.

Getting sponsorship is tough work and most of the time you have few volunteers from the club willing to hit up potential sponsors. Then you get to hear complaints about the payout being to flat and the players pack was weak. The lunch wasn't five star dining and etc.... At the end of the day the TD wonders if it is all worth it.

If the TD follows the pay tables and the sanctioning agreement, where is the complaint? Run a sanctioned event the way you think it should be done and lets see how right you are. :eek:

Wasn't there a free clinic where the AMs could get tips from a few top pros? I'd pay the entry fee just for that!

The problem in the amateur division starts with the top amateur players in any given division bagging that division over and over again and not being forced to move up. they then begin to be in the amateur division for the $ because they win tons of plastic and turn around and resell it for cash. The flat payout prevents this from happening and is a good thing. Hopefully it will encourage those baggers to move up since they won't be getting their usual overpayout for the repeat top finishers in the amateur divisions. If you're in it for the cash then PLAY PRO. if you're in it to be an amateur for the rest of your career then get used to a flat payout. and be sure to thank all your local baggers for the flat payout ever having to be an issue. As far as Mace goes and the Zboaz tourney... he does it right. he runs a good tourney and a lot of them. thank him!!!

I just saw that the ratings should be going up a few points as Chris Schmidt was listed as like 769 when he is 973.

The sport would be much healthier and better positioned for real growth

now that is the funniest thing I have read all year. thanks James

straight from the pdga HQ

Per the 05 and 06 Tour Standards, TDs of A B & C tiers can now take a modest cut of the event finances if said events still meet tier standards. For Worlds, provided they make a profit of at least $3000, and we make sure they make around this for the Pros, and hopefully beyond this for the Ams, then the first $3K becomes the hosts management fee and the remaining profit is split 50/50 between host and PDGA, per the event contract.

I agree with Melissa :D, you should have more lighter discs for the women. It's all about the women!!!! :D

On another note, I had a great time. Met and played with lots of golfers from OK, and really enjoyed them putting me in my place the third round. Billy and Hutch were great golfers and cool peeps. Hope to see you two soon in Wimberly and Tulsa!!!

Great courses, great people, great times!!!

I just saw that the ratings should be going up a few points as Chris Schmidt was listed as like 769 when he is 973.

that will make the ratings go down not up.

The complaints about payout in the Advanced Div. needs to be taken to another thread. I want to hear from people I saw and enjoyed playing with this weekend. Anyone have a great time???!!!!!!! :confused:

Too many people traveled from far away places to read a bunch of whining. Got fourth in ADV. and did not mind taking home $115. If you don't like the payout in AMs,,,,,,, Move up! :o

I am a player that enjoys the competition and will pay for the chance at it. This weekend cost me $70 with the Ace pot, I would have payed at least $40 for the same tourny with no players pack and trophie only.

preample: i'm not arguing against your preference... just stating mine.

at the am (MA2 and lower) level i likes the players pack. at the Adv level, we dont need more t-shirts and towels, especially ones valued at high prices.

the weekend cost me $70 with the acepot and i woulda paid $90 to play for no players pack and slightly steeper and less deep payout (say 6 or 7 of 18).

had it been a $40 trophy only event i doubt i would have played, players pack or not.

for me, i like a trophy of some sort - normal trophy, metal mini, whatever. (except for the lame glass picture frames and bagtags from TX states the last two years :) ) plus steep payout.

i believe the overall structure should strive to make the first place MA2 score close to the last place cash in MA1. those two positions should pay about the same. that motivates the successful MA2 player to move up and go for a more lucrative payday.

further, a steep, shorter payout in MA1 prepares the Adv player for the competition they will find in Open. this is more on the mental side of the game. playing for higher stakes is a learned skill.

MA2 and below is the beginners and real ams. MA1 should be like the Tour School and the *insert this years sponsor here* minor league tour on ball golf.

How when someone rated in the 700's shoots good golf it pulls the ratings down and he was playing about 965.

matt, it would mostly depend on whether he shot better or worse than you. my first answer did not account for that. if he shot better than you then you might easily see a decrease when his rating is corrected. if you shot better then you get an increase.

BUT due to the size of the field, correcting chris's pdganum and rating is not gonna make any noticable change at all.

Considering it will only apply to the Pro Pool it will go up about 1 or 2 points. :D

i just ran the numbers with the full pro pool using the club spreadsheet with the latest formulas provided by chuck. i also added pepperling's rating of 977 to the mix.

Round 1 with Chris Schmidt at 763:
Matt: 1000
Chris: 979

Round 1 with Chris Schmidt at 973:
Matt: 1000
Chris: 979
****************
Round 2 with Chris Schmidt at 763:
Matt: 1017
Chris: 958

Round 2 with Chris Schmidt at 973:
Matt: 1017
Chris: 958

sorry, no change.

with 86 players in the pool, a single change like this will make only an imperceptible change.

I thought I was 1001 and 1011 on the 1st two rounds? :confused: I do like you #'s better though. :D

The complaints about payout in the Advanced Div. needs to be taken to another thread. I want to hear from people I saw and enjoyed playing with this weekend. Anyone have a great time???!!!!!!! :confused:

Too many people traveled from far away places to read a bunch of whining. Got fourth in ADV. and did not mind taking home $115. If you don't like the payout in AMs,,,,,,, Move up! :o



word.
I had fun, and I even lost my $15 shirt thirty minutes after I got it.

I didnt get to play :(

Im playing match play for sure though!

Did my 3rd round stay at the 1000 mark? :D

I will clarify a few things for you.

First and foremost Derek Henry and many of the rest of you don't even have the experience of running a weekly event let alone a sectioned event at any level. That alone is why you don't understand many of the things that have gone on at events. Any of you that have all of these great ideas step right up and take you swing at this......someone........anyone......

Every part of the event is just that part of the event. It all happens as a service to you. First the meeting, then round one, then two, then three, then four and awards and off you go. It is all important. DO you have any idea how easy it is to deal with a technical problem with the printer and 5 or 50 players breathing down your neck about "how soon is payout"? Do you realize how many people you are putting out and delaying by interrupting any of the staff and the things they are doing to finish the event and asking "can I get my payout early?". I am sorry that it is hard on you to travel out and have a good time, but it appears to be the price for the fun you had.

As for the delay in awards yesterday, they pushed to 4 extra holes. I came off the hill, signed checks and awards began. Again if you haven't done this Derek there is no possible way you would understand or know what you are talking about.

Every entry fee included the following fee's:
$4 to the PDGA
$3 to the North Texas Series Bonus Pool
$2 to Educational Disc Golf Experience
$2 to Tarrant Area Food Bank.

I choose things to give you in the players package that I saw value in. It was all quality stuff. You weren't forced to take some worthless junk disc, you got the latest Star Plastic release, a $17 disc that cost all am's $8. That is completely fair, and it equals $9 added value to the payout. The shirt is moisture wicking. Yes it is black, but it is an attempt to share with you something new that is available to you to help you feel better as you play. It is a $15 shirt that cost all am's $8, that is $7 added value. Don't forget the Burrito Buck that is good for a free meal. Add on another $6 that cost all players.......nothing. So the player packages that were shoved down your throat were a $38 value while costing you $16....what a crime. Heaven forbid that you find yourself throwing that SL better that anything else in your bag in the next few days.

As for taking care of the touring players at the expense of everyone else, put a sock in it. Do the math, we had a $1000 skins match and added $1000 to all pro divisions, the added value profit to the am players was $2332. If you want to go farther and consider what many of you think is 100% of your entry fee's you are still being paid $11 more than you paid in and you all got something not just the players that played well. If you didn't like it I am sorry, but it was not worthless. We don't carry junk and we certainly don't hand it out or force it on anyone. On top of all of that, Mace Man has never handed out payouts at any event we have run EVER. You always pick your prizes.

Many of you making complaints are asking for pro treatment as if we favor one or the other and this is simply untrue. We are very aware of who we have to make happy, the players we see day in and day out. That includes all of the other players as well, so stop acting like there is one plan for one group and another for the other. We set out to do everything that we could for EVERYONE that attended. The payout was a bit of a surprise to even me, but you all got what you earned.

Too bad only Nate had a good time this weekend, because I for one worked harder than that. Oh and just one more thing, all of you that earn a healthy living, exactly when will it be ok for me to earn a living for my efforts as well?? Any of you have a vehicle with 316,000 miles on it? Any of you willing to drop what you are doing and take my place?

Did my 3rd round stay at the 1000 mark? :D

1003. but remember these are unofficial squared ratings from the league spreadsheet version of the calculations. official ratings tend to vary by up to 3-5 points in either direction. 1-2 point changes in either direction are very common.

I have a feeling they won't move too much. :D

Hey Mace it was a great tournament and I have only 2 suggestions. The payout needs to be posted after the 1st round or at least after the 2nd. I know that there were a lot of people trying to guess where the cash line was going into the last 9 holes at Weatherford and that shouldn't have been the case. The 2nd is that there be distances marked so that you can get at least some idea of how you need to throw. I had the misfortune of having the box on the 1st few holes of the 1st round and playing the guessing game when it cam to distances.

Overall it was a GREAT EVENT.

brian, its too bad your thread had to get all off this, but it seems to happen at the biggest and best events. last two years its was TX States.

btw, those numbers were all covered at hte meeting, had they been paying attention.

i also had a blast. brian has run some good events over the years but i honestly believe this was the best one yet. two courses filled, bunches of 1000 rated players. world champs (past and future) in the house. a five year old course record broken on one of the most challenging courses anywhere. does anyone recognize the significance of -7 being a the course record, and rtaking FIVE years to get it down even that low? the mighty Z is MIGHTY and it can take out the best of 'em. this weekend history was made. being on the same courses at the same time was worth the price.

completely awesome job!

wish i would of been there. Mace is a great guy, and I had a blast just chillen and talking about disc golf with him at bear creek. In fact because of Burl, Shultz, and Mace i am moving up. Trying to improve my game. I think his events have been well run.

I just jumped in here, but FYI, players with ratings below 800 aren't used to generate ratings either unofficially or officially.

that along withthe field size would explain the minimal change in the ratings. the guy with the wrong <800 rating shot about his rating, so it washes out.

Too bad only Nate had a good time this weekend,


I had a good time Mace.

Mace, Great job as usual. I wish I had been able to play. I still had the pleasure of watching the skins though. Nothing better than seeing some of the top pros duke it out for a few more dollars while us ams kick back and knock down a few brews.

And good luck finding someone to try your job. (The shop called and said the new Bose system for your Ferrari is in)

Guys and gals,

I know some of you may refuse to believe this, but Brian has followed the PDGA guidelines to a T. He has used the PDGA approved payout tables and he has supplied players packages, as per the PDGA guidelines. Looking at the numbers, he did not even take out the allowed amount for TD's. I realize the payouts look low, but they are exactly as they should be after players pacakges and series and PDGA fees.

I have seen several people make suggestions and I am sure that some of them are good ones, which I would recommend you use at the first tournament you run. I can garuntee you that Brian was doing his best to get things running on time. If you do not like the time it takes then do what I do, step up and ask how you can help. Do this once or twice and you will get a much better idea of the things Brian has to do to run his tournaments.

Brian,

Wished i could have been to the A-Tier, but funds are limited. As always if I am at one of your tournaments, I will step up and help in anyway I can.

Jerry

BTW. Does anyone remember watching the Super Bowl? Did the Cowboys win? [burp]

As always I had a great time at THE BIG SHOW. I told Mace after the 2nd round that this was the best group of player�s, attitude wise, that I have ever dealt with while running or assisting in an event. It was great to see all of the people from out of town that I haven't seen in a while since we took last year off from traveling to tournaments. I could not have asked for a more cooperative and understanding group of players during the event.


My opinion on the payout structure is just that, an opinion. Some of you may not agree with anything I say, others may agree with all of it, but it is what it is, an opinion. I was one of the people that voted for the flatter deeper payout but would have preferred to see trophy only. If you are playing in an amateur division it's my opinion that you should not get paid, in cash or prizes, for how you play. If you want to get payed, play OPEN. Unfortunately DG started out paying AM players for their performance in tournaments and it is hard to move away from now, but changing the payout structure will definitely make more people play up. IMHO you are amateur athletes, therefore you don't get paid.

Now to address the TD making money off of the tournament, most people have no idea what kind of time and money go into this type of event. If you factored in the TD's time that he spent doing all of the little things it takes to pull any event off, much less an A Tier with 180++ players, he or she is lucky to walk off making more than $1 an hour, and that's not even including all of the volunteer help that they get. TD's like Brian Mace and Chris Himing, whose soul jobs consist of DG, and countless others like Bryan James, Terry Toolen, Joey Harrell, Billy Nelson, Jerry Power (These are just the ones I know here locally) and countless others are not in this for the money. They are trying to provide you, the player, with a great tournament experience, something to do on the weekends other than wreak havoc and if they make a few dollars in the process, who are we to complain when they have spent HUNDREDS of hours for us to have ONE fun weekend competing and hanging out with our friends?? To me that�s what the whole tournament experience is about, and I�m just your average, low rated, not so good AM player, at best. Enjoy the experience and stop trying to be accountants /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif.

http://server4.ihostphotos.com/imgt/22053.jpg (http://server4.ihostphotos.com/show.php?id=22053)
http://server4.ihostphotos.com/imgt/22054.jpg (http://server4.ihostphotos.com/show.php?id=22054)


check out my bigshow dye. I accidentally got this disc ran over so it had tire marks on the lip, so i dyed it. not bad for a first try eh?

ok back on subject

I agree with Melissa :D, you should have more lighter discs for the women. It's all about the women!!!! :D

On another note, I had a great time. Met and played with lots of golfers from OK, and really enjoyed them putting me in my place the third round. Billy and Hutch were great golfers and cool peeps. Hope to see you two soon in Wimberly and Tulsa!!!

Great courses, great people, great times!!!



Sup BIG NATE!!! Yeah had a great time playin with all the Texans......Remember GO BIG OR GO HOME!!! ;)

Great tourney Mace. I really enjoyed watching the Pro's throw. Burl's jump putt into the wind made my day. :)

The payout was a bit of a surprise to even me

If you were surprised just think how surpirsed the AM players were.
Oh and just one more thing, all of you that earn a healthy living, exactly when will it be ok for me to earn a living for my efforts as well?? Any of you have a vehicle with 316,000 miles on it? Any of you willing to drop what you are doing and take my place?

hey mace dont get these folks wrong we all appreciate the hard work invovled in running a tournament. But you are the one who chose this proffession right??? :confused:

Settle down there, boys.........

What a GREAT tournament !!! This was my 1st ZBoaz, and I'm already looking forward to next year. I don't recommend playing the ZBoaz course blind, though :o.
How 'bout all those ladies ?!?!!! AWESOME!
A BIG Thank You goes out to Disc Golf Her (http://www.discgolfher.com) for sponsoring all the pro women!
Maceman�..You Rock :cool:! Thank YOU for everything you do! It takes TD�s like you, who run events like this, to make our �little� sport what it is today (not really little any more, is it?).
Thanks also to Marshall Ray & the Staff�.you guys are the base, and without a beat�it�s hard to Rock ;)!

I appreciate being singled out...at least I know that my posts are being read. I think there have been some much more harsh comments that I ever want to write. I worded my posts pretty carefully trying not to offend anyone, just probing responses. I suppose I am easy to single out since I'm young and obviously haven't run a disc golf event. I have, however, run (as a committee) a few philanthropic events, as well as rush week, with my fraternity in college. They are VERY similar to the inner workings of a DG event. The only real difference is what goes on at the event and all the plastic. A lot of planning, sponsor-hunting, and other hard work go on at events like these, and no one seems to notice when things go right; but they sure do notice when something goes wrong.

I'm not complaining about how Mace paid out this or that, and whether he made any money out of the event or not. He did everything by the book, and although I'm an accountant and understand that, alot of players see the top payout spot and judge too quickly. I have a lot of respect for those that are devoting their lives to promoting the sport (keep in mind they are NOT exploiting it). It takes a lot of hard work to do what Mace and others do, and I for one appreciate it.

Now, I just wanted to offer a little constructive criticism. I've been told I take criticism better than most people, so whenever I receive it, whether it was constructive or downright being p!ssed on, I ran with it just to prove that whatever it was could be done better.

I didn't play in the Z-Boaz Open. After looking at the awesome fields of players, I kind of wish I had. I wasn't counting on getting to play both events, but after the delays at CH, I figured I'd save my $70. I don't know all of the things that delayed the CH event, but from what I have been told and read, it was no different at the Z-Boaz event. I don't want to know what went wrong, I just want to offer help. Alot of the things that I've heard can be changed...and please, take this with a grain of salt (and a shot of tequilla).

Lots of players showed up on Saturday to sign up. Well for one, cut off the sign-ups at 7:30am, and let that be known far in advance. After that, charge $20 for a late entry, up until 20 minutes before the player's meeting. The man's making a living off of this, right? He has every right to charge a late fee, and has been VERY gracious not to do so yet. If you set precedents like these, people understand the onus is on them to sign up early, or endure the late fee.

If there are printer and/or computer problems, have a backup plan. If most people are signing up at least the night before, go ahead and print out the hole assignments and leave plenty of spaces for Saturday entries in each division. Only the players that have already signed up need to be set in stone. That way, if the printer or computer give you issues, you can always resort to paper and pencil. Also, having the players write down the names of others on their card for each round (as Himing does) seems to really take a load off of the tourney staff. If you can put some menial responsibilities on the player(s), do it! I doubt many will object, and actually will be happy to assist in such a way.

Consider starting earlier on either Sunday or both days. The staff is there early, why shouldn't the players get there a little earlier? If you're too hungover, tired, or whatever to show up to play at 8:30 or 9, then 9:30 probably won't be any better for you. Also, if the courses allow, be creative in the format of the rounds. The VPO has 3 rounds of 24--2 Saturday and 1 Sunday, which still totals 72 holes of golf. Even with the Ace golf on Sunday, this gets the event over VERY early on Sunday.

I'm not sure what the delay is once cards start rolling in after the last round. I would think that if you're on the ball and entering them in from the get-go, there should only be a few minutes to go when the last couple of cards come in until the awards presentation starts.

Those are just a couple of suggestions that would really move the event along a little better. I had a great time at the CH, and I'm sure I would have as well at Z-Boaz had I played. Mace gets a great turnout for his events, and always has top-quality discs available. Please don't take that away from his success. My concern is only with getting out-of-town players on the road at an earlier hour. I've had friends (some of them fraternity brothers up in Lubbock) die in accidents from driving too late and too tired. It's seriously dangerous, and we all owe it to traveling players to get them on the road quickly and safely. That's all I was really trying to say. My apologies Mace, you work very hard, and I only wanted to help make your events that much better. I had some other suggestions that are more from my experience as a business efficiency expert if you are interested, but that's totally up to you.

Too bad only Nate had a good time this weekend,


I had a good time Mace.



Everybody that I was around had a good time this weekend (excluding BB). :D Some of the people on here complaining were not even there. I wouldn't worry about them.

I heard you were haveing a VERY good time. :D

Yea just look at my score. I had the luxury of hearing Motley Crue over the PA system while I took a seven on hole nine. Thanks steve martin.

ah so the infamous music playing over the speaker system when you try to putt again. very tricky I had that happen to me at one of the TX 10 events.

I am suprised you can hear the music through all the sniffling and whimpering. :D

I had a GREAT time at this tournament!! Thank you Brian Mace and crew. I have looked forward to this tournament since last year and I had an absolute blast. ZBOAZ is not messing around thats for sure.

That skins match is so awesome! Thanks Barry!

Consider starting earlier on either Sunday or both days. The staff is there early, why shouldn't the players get there a little earlier? If you're too hungover, tired, or whatever to show up to play at 8:30 or 9, then 9:30 probably won't be any better for you. Also, if the courses allow, be creative in the format of the rounds. The VPO has 3 rounds of 24--2 Saturday and 1 Sunday, which still totals 72 holes of golf. Even with the Ace golf on Sunday, this gets the event over VERY early on Sunday.




I think these are all very good suggestions and I believe they would help in timing.

Just an ole Grand Master here, but I had a good time. The only thing I regret was it was so dark by the end of the skins match I couldn't see. Brian does what I would never do and I'm sure most of you wouldn't either. Look forward to the next event. How about that Danielle, is she hot or what? :o

I apologize for throwing you under the bus Derek. I understand where you are coming from and I too want to get things under way and out of the way as soon as possible.

Much of this is directly related to the fact that there is always going to be a hand full of people that don't want to, can't, or simply just refuse to sign up before Saturday morning. If attendance trends continue it may stop being a problem, if you all keep coming to the events than they will fill early and the Saturday sign up will not be an option...I did say if. I tried using the late fee a few years back and it backfired. It was another reason I was labeled a "money grubbing bast.ard". I was only trying to get everyone to sign up early so the events ran smoother. I didn't want the late fees, I wanted players to sign up no later than Friday so I had all of the info ready to go when I hit the park on Saturday morning and the event would run in a timely manner.

The one main reason that jumped on you Derek is that you were making a statement about the timely finish of these events as if that is what goes on at all of the events I run and that is simply not true. When I run an event, especially a one day event, I spend the afternoon round taking care of the details including the payout structure. I get all of the things out of the way that could be a slowing factor after the round so that all we have to do is check score cards, enter the info, sort it, print it, and do the awards. We usually have the awards in a very rapid turnaround.

My background in the entertainment business, specifically working on concert tours has trained me to scrutinize everything that goes on each time and trim time where ever possible. That is the only way you can get 10 semi trucks into and arena at 8am and have a show at 8pm the same day. I apply this to everything I do on site at an event. I am aware that this is a much smaller scale, but it is just as difficult to balance. I am always looking for ways to do this more efficiently and get done quickly.......believe it or not John :D. I am open to suggestions, I will give them a chance and if they don't work I will move on to the next one.

I am always looking for ways to do this more efficiently and get done quickly.......believe it or not John. :D



I had a great time. Didn't golf to my potential, but overall was very pleased with the ENTIRE Big Show.

BTW, you were late to your own birth, and will be late to your funeral. :p

That is what I am shooting for...at least 3 days late for the funeral.

One other thing, the shirt that didn't have anything to do with the event you played.....try reading the back and it may make some sense to you....the 3 events combine to make up The Big Show.

LOL.

I don't wear shirts......................

http://www.sodamnfunny.com/Animation/Gif/fbf.gif

There is nothing to complain about on my end ,This was one awesome tournament ! Great job Maceman and staff .The format was perfect and afterwards the matchplay was something to see , think it was the first time I ever stayed til it was time to go home . :) Cant wait to get a crack at z-boaz park again or it gets a crack at me . :DBrian dont forget to get your report in ;)

I would like to say a couple of things that I have been distracted from here.

First and foremost I must thank everyone that had anything to do with making this all happen.

Brandon I could not do this without you. Each year you catch more and more and do things that I can't get to to make things smoother, and you catch a lot of flack from me and let it roll off your back. Again I can't do it without you, THANKS.

Jason and Ginetta, the two of you are GOLD. It was such a good feeling not having to worry about anything at Weatherford after I set up the baskets each morning. I can't say enough about all the good things you bring to the table. I can say this again though, THANK YOU SO MUCH!!!

Brad you took a lot off my plate this year that I was physically un-able to do and it showed in the beginning, middle, and the end. I can't thank you as much as you deserve.

Steve everyone became very aware of what you bring with you every time you show up to help. I have known all along that I don't want to run another event without you.....and Brad. I can't thank you as much as you deserve either.

Ray Murray you have to be one of the best Marshalls available. It is absolutely worth the price of sanctioning and then some to get your help, and to have the weight of PDGA renewal off our shoulders.

Everyone that helped check scores, this is so helpful and easy. If you want to help the progress of future events this is the best and easiest thing you can do to help out.

Jeff Davis, you are one of the best friends I could have. This operation was so much smoother due to the use of your truck. Thanks again, and I will be off to wash it soon.

Jonathan Grubbs and Mark Rhone (Dent Empire) the use of your trailer was soooooooooo big I can't put it into the proper words. Thank You Very Much!!

Colin Evans, thanks for all the work with the art, you took such a big load off my plate it was incredible. I do miss doing the art myself, but I also see the value of your background and input.

All of you that played thanks for showing up. Everything we do is to make things better for all of you. While it makes things a little tougher when you all show up, it is so much more fun to run events when everyone shows up.

Thank you all.

Enjoy the experience and stop trying to be accountants /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif.


Thanks Mace Man and staff, great event, lots of fun.
I am sorry you even have to post defense of the way things are done. I have always stated like Jason, "Experience" is everything. You are paying an entry fee for the experience that is being offered. Could things have been better in some areas, always. There are many funny comments on this post-Big Show threads about payouts, timing, etc. Some are good feedback, others are garbage. No one is really entitled to know what profits are being made besides Uncle Sam. You paid your entry fee for the Big Show experience and it was up to you to make the most of it through organized competition, watching and learning from others or socializing with far away friends. Mace filled these events for the asking price, looks like he sold a valid product. There are so many factors to keep everyone happy it is impossible. Look at this small list that players easily feel one way or the other in a line of continuum:
--Players Pack, yes or no, big or little
--Number of rounds played--2, 3, 4, final
--Number of courses-- one and different layouts, two, three
--Payout percentage--deep, flat, 30%, 50%
--Lunch provided or not--yes, no, it sucked, it rocked, but I don't like potato salad
--Tee pads, fly pads, natural, etc
You can go on and on. So, in the end, a tournament provides an experience, you like it, you come back, you don't, you don't.
Think about World Champion, Barry Schultz. He drove down here from Sheboygan, Wisconsin (24 hours). They way I figure it, he made less than $3 an hour for all of his effort being a World Champion playing against and beating a very tough field. This doesn't even include the countless times he answers questions and signs autographs for everyone. No complaints from him you will read about. He might provide feedback to Mace, I did. But you sure couldn't tell if he was dissapointed by his acceptance speech in which he waited patiently to give at the very end and missed a rib dinner and the Super Bowl as well.
We play this game because we love it. You should be playing competitively beacuase you love playing this game against people of similiar skill. Anyone can play the game, the courses are there. Playing organized competitions takes much effort for an organizer to provide that opportunity. If you think about how much time Barry has put into his own game to bring it to this level, it should make some of you ashamed of the whining and complaining. Please realize what is going on here, both on an organizational level and at a playing level.

Amen...can't wait until the KCWO this year..you will have to buy your own first place awards since they screw the AM's EVERY YEAR

[/QUOTE]

Interesting comment from someone's who's never been to the Wide Open, and never played any PDGA event outside of Texas or Oklahoma.

That being said, we're simply doing what the vast majority of amateur events around the country have been doing for the past several years. I realize that Texas events have until very recently traditionally paid out extremely heavy on the back end with little or no players packages. But Texas is the exception, not the rule. Your argument is with the DISTRIBUTION of the payout, not the actual payout. Rhett made a good point...whether or not the payout is made in player packs or all on the back end, the payout is the same...Ams are still pre-paying for their prizes.

Example: $400 in player packs + $400 in prizes = $800 payout.

$0 in player packs + $800 in prizes = $800 payout

$800 in player packs + $0 in prizes = $800 payout

The payout is exactly the same in all 3 cases. The distribution of the payout is different. Most amateur players prefer scenario #1, and the increase in the number of tournaments and PDGA members are helping to bear that out.

All of this talk is taking away from what I've heard was a very well run and attended event. Congrats to Brian and all of his staff for running a top-notch event.

Except for Brandon, who is a dirty go-kart driver. :)

Chap

That is what I am shooting for...at least 3 days late for the funeral.



You know at my age you start to think about the things you would like people to say about you at your own funeral, but there really is only one thing that is important. I hope that at my funeral they say......




"****, did you just see him move?"

I'll be happy if the td report says I won instead of Charles.
"Brandon's a dirty go kart driver" That's funny.

Example: $400 in player packs + $400 in prizes = $800 payout.

$0 in player packs + $800 in prizes = $800 payout

$800 in player packs + $0 in prizes = $800 payout

The payout is exactly the same in all 3 cases. The distribution of the payout is different. Most amateur players prefer scenario #1, and the increase in the number of tournaments and PDGA members are helping to bear that out.


I really think the more preferred option would be
$200 player packs (deducted at wholesale value) + $600 payout.

Let's see, that's 20 players at $50 a head (B-Tier).
$3 -> PDGA, $2 -> Charity, $5 -> Ace Pot, $40 -> Payout.

$10 -> Player's pack
$30 -> Purse


Here are examples of 20 players.
Columns below represent $20 retail value player's packs ($10 wholesale).
$800 payout plus fully donated player's packs. ($1200 total payout)
$600 payout plus $200 player's pack(wholesale). ($1000 total payout)
$400 payout plus $400 player's pack(retail). ($800 total payout)

<table border="1"><tr><td>Place</td><td>$800</td><td> $600</td><td> $400
</td></tr><tr><td>1st</td><td>$120.00</td><td>$90.00</td><td>$60.00
</td></tr><tr><td>2nd</td><td>$112.00</td><td>$84.00</td><td>$56.00
</td></tr><tr><td>3rd</td><td>$104.00</td><td>$78.00</td><td>$52.00
</td></tr><tr><td>4th</td><td>$96.00</td><td>$72.00</td><td>$48.00
</td></tr><tr><td>5th</td><td>$88.00</td><td>$66.00</td><td>$44.00
</td></tr><tr><td>6th</td><td>$72.00</td><td>$54.00</td><td>$36.00
</td></tr><tr><td>7th</td><td>$64.00</td><td>$48.00</td><td>$32.00
</td></tr><tr><td>8th</td><td>$56.00</td><td>$42.00</td><td>$28.00
</td></tr><tr><td>9th</td><td>$48.00</td><td>$36.00</td><td>$24.00
</td></tr><tr><td>10th</td><td>$40.00</td><td>$30.00</td><td>$20.00</tr></td></table>

Maybe it's time to start a KCWO thread and start posting all of this stuff there. Go ahead and get a headstart on the complaints so they will all be out of the way before the event. :cool::cool::eek: :eek: :D :D :D:D

Yeah, G-Money. That'll work. (Where's the emoticon with the eyes rolling?)
The same players will attend and gripe again regardless of what's posted.

http://www.ediblemedia.com.au/phpnet/images/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif

leave it to my hero to come up with all your animated Gifs, Smilies, and anything else under the sun, and he will come trough.

It was my first tourny outside of Oklahoma and my first A tier, and I think everything went smooth and it was a fun tourny to play in. Though we did get a speeding ticket trying to make the first round on Sunday at 9 but at least I wasn't driving.

Good Job Guys!

Though we did get a speeding ticket trying to make the first round on Sunday at 9 but at least I wasn't driving.



Though it does suck that the round didn't start until 9:30! You guys rushed for no reason!

Though we did get a speeding ticket trying to make the first round on Sunday at 9 but at least I wasn't driving.



Though it does suck that the round didn't start until 9:30! You guys rushed for no reason!




ahhh haha. thats funny.

sucks about the ticket though, radar detector? they save you $ in the long run

Not me, I got more tickets with one than without. I just don't do more than 10 over or faster than the car in front of me.

whatever works. haha

Yeah but at least we wernt the only ones who got a ticket I heard a few more did.

Sorry for the repeated Houston remarks at various times during the weekend over the PA.

Hey everyone, Come down 2 the Victoria Open. Bound 2 Be a good time!!!! We got our weekend back, No Excuses Now!!!!! :D

Someone came up to me and told me they found a digital camera this past weekend. I know who it belongs to so please get back in touch with me so we can get it back to the owner.

One other thing I would like to talk about. It is all the talk since the event. Not only do I not mind any of you voicing your opinions about the way things went in the last few weeks, I encourage it. Much of the time people want to grumble and complain among themselves and then nothing gets resolved. If you talk about it here and give me or anyone else for that matter to explain some of the factors that you are unaware of then issues get resolved and bitterness gets removed. If you have comments good or bad lets hear it. We are always doing whatever we can to make things better and we will continue, but only if we know about it.

Is this going to be a Pro/Am event next year?

I am not trying to be a whiner but I liked playing 3 1/2 rounds at Z-Boaz than 2, and the Adv players only got 1 1/2 rounds at z-boaz.

We did have 89 pros in this event. That is 3.833 players per hole on one course. Plus the 111 Ams that we had this year.

Wow that is a lot of people!!

I think it definitely earned the right to be a separate Pro/Am again. The only thing is that this year it seemed easier on everyone to just deal with 2 weekends and one weekday, whereas when it's split up there are 3 weekends and two weekdays. If the same amount of total people show up for the Big Show over a 9-day stretch, extending it to 16-days seems unnecessary. It would allow room for growth, but so would adding a 3rd course or more holes per course to the mix. That's where a 54-hole complex like the one used in Houston at States comes in REALLY handy...

Maybe someday we'll have 3 or more courses that close together for a mega-event. Let's just hope there's enough parking too!

and the people who missed the "Super Bowl" should be thanking Mace :D

One other thing I would like to talk about. It is all the talk since the event. Not only do I not mind any of you voicing your opinions about the way things went in the last few weeks, I encourage it. Much of the time people want to grumble and complain among themselves and then nothing gets resolved. If you talk about it here and give me or anyone else for that matter to explain some of the factors that you are unaware of then issues get resolved and bitterness gets removed. If you have comments good or bad lets hear it. We are always doing whatever we can to make things better and we will continue, but only if we know about it.





Now that's what I'm talking about, a tournament director (or a person for all that matter) that is open to hearing constructive criticism...some people take criticism like an insult, it is better to take what good you can from players comments without getting an attitude about it...granted, some people give criticism with personal insult and that's when it is taken too far.

Thank you sooooo much, Brian!!!

Hey Mace......do you know if any of the pics taken by the Marshall are gonna be posted?? thanks...... and thank you for another great tournament!!!!

As you know the last two editions of The Big Show had split weekends for The Z Boaz Open. The decision was made to split the weekends because of what Chris mentioned another course diluted the amount of Z Boaz golf you got to play, especially the ams and that bothered me.

By the way your numbers are a little off Chris, there were 69 in all pro divisions, and 116 in the am divisions. It is strange that the pro field has stayed pretty much the same over the years, but the ams got their own weekend and skins match and they stayed home. The three times it was held on combined weekends we had Adv Masters and the Pro fields in the same pool and it made the balance work.

So we did it that way and the attendance dropped for the am weekends two years in a row. It is nearly impossible to single out one factor that caused this and that is not the point. The point is that there are so many events on the schedule in Texas and I believe that many of them needed to go back to only one weekend for many reasons, The most obvious one is that attendance was not justifying the extra work involved with the extra weekend or the extra time off of the calendar. Therefore we did what I have recommended to other TD's. I am not ruling it out for the future, but for now I want to keep it on the same weekend.

There are other factors that many people don't think about, but a big one is that if all divisions are available then you can travel with anyone am or pro and this will cause attendance to rise making bigger divisions for everyone. I also believe that the atmosphere at an event is better when you have more people there and from all divisions.

The biggest reason for the combination of the two weekends is what Derek pointed out, the length of time that I have to work this if it is 3 weekends is far too grueling. It is tough enough doing it for 10 days let alone adding another 7 on top of it.

I have a tentative plan that I think everyone will find appealing. While working with Colin on the art he showed me an idea that would involve using a different and large portion of the north part of the park for a temp course. I did a little research this past weekend and found that there are very few activities going on over the tracks this time of year. I will be discussing with the city setting up a temp course that should be more on the lines of the permanent course that we all love.....well most of us anyway. This would shorten the drive and enable us to operate from one HQ for the most part. All things that will lead to a better event and all on the same weekend.

In answer to Conners, I think that there is far too many witch hunts in Disc Golf. I have seen this everywhere, people get what they think are all of the facts and jump to conclusions and then get mad. Then they tell a bunch of people their conclusion and they get mad too. Next thing you know they are rounding up a posse to go and get the person that has wronged them. This has been the single most effective way of weeding out and eliminating many of the people that have tried to do good things for the sport in their area in the past. Why would anyone do this?!?!? How long would you put up with a bunch of mud flying in your direction when all you were trying to do was make things better? In most cases there are many pertinent facts that have been left out that will explain everything, but they want blood and by this time it is too late for talking.....get a rope. That is why I want to talk about all of this and have the opportunity to explain the decisions we make, and to listen to the feed back from all of you. This will lead to better events and that is what I want to see and present.

hey brian, adding temps to the MightyZ could be cool.

BUT, it is awesome to play Weatherford in its full 18 configuration. thats a real treat. that course is not as easy as it looks at first glance. maybe this is off topic, but has there ever been any serious talk of a perm 18 out there?

It will be permanent as soon as they can raise the money to pay for it.

I would entertain the idea of expanding the course with some temp holes in a different part of the year, but we have a daylight issue this time of the year and I think that will mandate an earlier meeting and start time for next year's events.

you are smoking crack man.

That course sux.

Any chance tee signs going up at the Z? Even 4x4 posts with
numbers on them would help. Being out of town,had some
difficulty with parts of the course.

Thanks again for all your hard work Brian!!!

Deano... :cool:

you are smoking crack man.

That course sux.





Now that made me smile.

Comparing it to Z-Boaz, yes.....it's no good.

i'm not saying its as great as Audobon. just that its a fun diversion.

I for one like Weatherford. Some of the holes could be redesinged, but in all it is a good park and a decent course.

Brian, are the Crowly folks dead set against using there course as a second???

How about the new Ft Worth course that is going in, is there room for 18??

what about Ideal Golf Ranch, would he consider making a deal for the tournament (or even the midweek)

Crowley is getting concrete tee pads paid for by the city. They will be for white and red. I would like to see more events out at Crowley and I know a bunch of people out there that would also like to see more events out there!

It will be permanent as soon as they can raise the money to pay for it.

.



Who is they? The city or do they have some golfers out there?

Are they done "improving" Crowley's layout?

I haven't seen it lately, but I wasn't too thrilled with what they did to holes 8 through 10... those holes were just fine the way they were, and I certainly wouldn't call them "improved" now.

The city was doing construction back there and they put those houses in along 8 and a bunch of people where ending up in there back yard. But I am not sure what they are going to do back there I agree I am not to thrilled about hole 10, but the rest I like. I know they changed around hole 4,5&amp;6 but I have not been out there to check it out!

Yeah, if Crowley was to be used in a tournament of prominence, it would definitely need to be re-designed. There is alot of potential out there, and the course from the red (and in most cases, gold) teeboxes WAS good up until a few months ago, when the changes were made. I could see it being used in a big "Tarrant County Disc Golf Blitz" where you played one round each at Weatherford, Z-Boaz, Veteran's, and Crowley. Yeah, that's a little bit of mileage between the courses, but the area around the Crowley course actually does bode well for a headquarters, and I guess it's the most central of the four. Truly central would be somewhere between Z-Boaz and Crowley, but from Crowley, I don't think any course is more than 35 minutes away. Crowley has a TON of parking, and that rec center is probably cheap to use...I went to a family reunion there once, and let me tell you, it wasn't the loaded part of the family. I mapped the courses out from Crowley and from Z-Boaz as HQ:

Crowley to:
Weatherford - 28 miles/35 min.
Z-Boaz - 13 miles/19 min.
Veteran's - 20.5 miles/26 min.

Z-Boaz to:
Weatherford - 16 miles/20 min.
Crowley - 13.5 miles/20 min.
Veteran's - 21.4 miles/25 min.

So nevermind, Z-Boaz is more central. But the parking and rec center might give Crowley the edge. If an event like this ever prospers, it would definitely atract some major interest. I would think it would make one awesome autumn-time event.

That is a great idea but I doubt if it will ever happen.

Brian

Thanks for a great weekend. Today is the first day that I haven't falling asleep at 5:30. That ride home was a biiiaaattcch!

ZBOAZ kicks butt, for sure in my top 10 of courses. I will be back next year, if you have room on the couch.

I still owe you some Italian food, yours tasted great!

NIce play'n with you Smitty, and good shootin all weekend.

ce

Yes we will be installing tee signs this spring. We will also be doing some other improvements as well. It is a pet peeve of mine as a player and TD to present the course in an "under construction" state for an event. SO we have made tentative plans to do the improvements this spring, after the event is over, so the earth can heal before the next event we hold out there.

The other ideas are good and they deserve some more consideration. We can discuss them as time goes on.

I am very convinced that the temp course option north of the tracks is the best right now. If it is possible I would like The Z Boaz Open to be about golf at South Z Boaz Park. I am hesitant to include any other courses in the mix for various reasons. The main reason for Weatherfod is that it is not too far away and there is no heavy traffic problems.....unless you are going too fast. And it is a good course, it may not be as good as The Mighty Z but it is a good course.

so whos ready for match play?

It's not nice to play with matches while there's a burn ban.

Can someone please explain to me how this match play thing works?

so any updates on the REDSKINS Z flick????

You are playing heads up against one other player on your card. It's like skins, but there is no carry-over. I think the way Mace does it, there are no half points either.

With a foursome on your card, players a, b, c, d. Hole 1-6 goes a-b, c-d, holes 7-12 are a-c, b-d, then holes 13-18 are a-d, b-c. You score a point for each hole you win outright, I don't think there is any score for matches won.

Two rounds, the highest score in points wins.

At least that is my understanding of the process. If it is in error, I am sure someone will be along shortly to correct it.

You are correct for the most part. You will get a point for every hole you win in the match, and you will also get two points for each match you win. Same score ties the hole, better score wins it.

If you have played Team Golf at San Saba or Wimberley, or Team Golf on the holidays at Veterans you have played match play. If you have any of the Tiger Woods Golf Games you can play match play on that to get yourself familiar with the format. The format is very fun. You don't have to put an entire round of good golf together just good holes.

You better get Joel to start on another one, I have heard nothing on it.

thanks yes called Joel last night he is making me 2 of them this time.

Im excited. cant wait to get back on the course with some kind of organized event.

Anyone with a high resolution photo of someone playing at Cedar Hill could get it in The Dallas Morning News local edition for that area. If you have this photo please let me know asap.

I've got some photo AND short-clip video out there...just let me know where to send the files.

That was the 2 things I was not sure of, Match points and ties.

Still not completely sure of ties. Do ties halve the hole/match (1/2 pt each per hole; 1 pt each per match), or get no points ?

Perfect round = 18 hole pts + 6 ( 3*2 ) match pts. = 24 pts ?

1 point each for ties. Overall ties for the win will be played off.

I have several also Brian.
:cool:

I've got some photo AND short-clip video out there...just let me know where to send the files.



Send me some. [email protected]
Thanks
:D

It is time to get ready for Match Play.

I will be running pick your partner doubles at Cedar Hill flex start between 3pm and 4pm.

Hey where did everyone go?

Here is a weather forecast. (http://wwwa.accuweather.com/forecast.asp?partner=accuweather&myadc=0&traveler=0&zipcode=76001&metric=0)

We are here and ready to play...I know we have atleast a 1/2 dozen or so of our group that is going to play. Glad to see the forecast got even better since yesterday and the day before.

How many pro's already signed up Brian?

Sounds like everyone is ready to play, but scared to commit until they see what the weather is going to do.

If you're planning to sign up Saturday, get there very early. We need all of the daylight for playing this time of year.

Can't be worse than the downpour last event out there - I hope...actually it looks like it will be great out there...hope to see a lot of players out for this.

What time will registration end on Sat? How late will you be at the park on Friday?

I will be at the park until around dark. Registration will end at 8:30 am on Saturday.

It looks like who ever is planning on playing is waiting to sign up on Saturday. I have heard form several people who say they will be there.

I hope that people are not balking at the format. You will have a good time, it is a very fun format.

I would love to play, but once again I need to work. But Friday afternoon may be an option. Can Juli and I play AM together? :D

Dang Cub Scout Blue and Gold banquet that night, I am going to have to skip this one. (for my marrage sake)

This is a fun format, too bad I didn't do that well last year.

See you are Samuel Crawford Mace.

So who is playing open this Sat?

I think that a couple of Tyler guys are coming up. Don't be skared. :D

what time is the players meeting??

9 AM and I am going ot talk a lot. :D

now what time is it really going to start??

You just never know.....it all depends on how many people show up at 8:58 and expect to get in.......but it will not be as late as last time. :D

Do EWES have an extension cord long enough so i can keep my electric blanket plugged in? It's cold in Texas. Or do i need to say:

Hace' frio en Tejas!

Tu eres una Sissy!

I'll be playing in Houston this weekend since my wife is at a baby shower. I'll be at the disc golf shower.

Have fun in Cedar Hill!

Yo mace! Enjoy your new division...........

They have you 5th from the top on the Master's List! :D
http://www.pdga.com/tournament/tournament_results.php?TournID=5452

Here are the results.

These guys are hard core.

Thanks for coming out.

MPO 1 Shawn Robertson 10 15 25 $75.00
MPO 2 Chris Farnham 13 2 15 $45.00
MPO Brice Longerbone 6 5 11
MPO Chris Flesner 0 9 9

MA1 1 Terry Toolen 8 19 27 $85.00
MA1 2 Jack Tabor 12 11 23 $70.00
MA1 3 Clay Brumit 12 8 20 $55.00
MA1 4 Pat Brenner 7 12 19 $45.00
MA1 5 Jeremy Ellis 11 7 18 $20.00
MA1 5 Ike Eaker 10 8 18 $20.00
MA1 5 Gary Watts 3 15 18 $20.00
MA1 Larry Owen 2801 8 7 15
MA1 Ken Regan 6 9 15
MA1 Jim Bridges 26803 6 9 15
MA1 Britt Browning 7 7 14
MA1 Ray Murray 6 2 8

MA2 1 Michael Brownlow 9 16 25 $50.00
MA2 2 Todd Yantis 10 10 20 $40.00
MA2 3 JC Mitchell 28885 9 8 17 $20.00
MA2 3 Luke Grier 26800 8 9 17 $20.00
MA2 Darren Manning 6 8 14
MA2 Matt Weinberg 7 2 9

brian, dat was a blast. i'm glad i made it. how many did chris give up while taking 0?

I'll give u the low down.

First hole birce makes a 70' side arm out of the woods putt for the push. 3rd hole Brice hits a 60+ birdie putt and forced me to make my 30' putt for the push. 5th hole my birdie putt goes in the bottom of the pan for the win and roles down past 7 tee for the bogie push. Next hole birdie spit through the middle of Cedar Hills ***** baskets, so Brice wins 2 holes and the match. :mad:

Then Chris birdied 10,11,and 12 on me and I gave up by that time. 5 birdies the first round with 0 points. :(