Bryan, I don't think anyone here is so far away that we don't agree things need to be fixed. We just disagree with the methods. It ain't as black and white as some people here think (including those with their own angry issues with the government as a whole). It also isn't a simple broad stroke maneuver.


As for 404 of SOX, leave it alone! That's the only reason we got rid of our crappy Win95 machine two years ago! :)

Because even though he will not be the next president [there is a .001 percent chance] his policies and ideas are correct.



Yes, those republicans are so naive for not recognizing Mr. Paul's brilliance. :eek:

Since when is the Presidential Election about having good or correct ideas? I always thought it was a bi-partisan popularity contest.

I am not one to buy into conspiracy rumors, but this is what I have heard from reliable sources in the GOP and in the RP campaign.

It is not so much the GOP is rejecting Ron Paul as much as it is the Military Industrial Complex, the Medical Industrial Complex and the bankers do not want someone like Ron Paul in office. Ron Paul does not vote based on lobbyist, he votes based on the Constitution and his personal values. In other words, he does not pander to those that contribute to the GOP.

This is not true for a majority of the GOP, most respect Ron Paul and love that he is bringing people into the party.

But the ''Neo-Con'' sector of the GOP that has taken over has worked very hard to make him out as being a kook, even though all his policies are correct and from past party platforms. [in fact if you read the Texas GOP platform and change a few words like ''Preemptive'' and the [censored] bashing, you have RP's platform.''

Texas GOP platform (http://www.texasgop.org/site/DocServer/2006_Plat_with_TOC_2.pdf?docID=2022)

If all the policies of Ron Paul were followed, there would be no need for Washington Lobbyists. There would be a lot of people out of work in Washington.

In other words, RP is a threat to the GOP money base. However you are starting to see them jump ship and support Democrats this year. I guess they can be bought.

I have proven with my scenerio that Americans do not want mexican jobs..heck they cannot even perform the job that the mexicans do.



Exactly what is it that Americans CANNOT do? Wash dishes, do landscaping? pick vegetables? Are you kidding me? or just yourself?

America comes second (http://michellemalkin.com/2006/03/29/the-american-flag-comes-second/)

Well I guess this is okay as well :confused:



NO, it is NOT okay. I witnessed this last year and that's when my fire was fueled and I got off my butt and got involved!

I am not one to buy into conspiracy rumors, but this is what I have heard from reliable sources in the GOP and in the RP campaign.

It is not so much the GOP is rejecting Ron Paul as much as it is the Military Industrial Complex, the Medical Industrial Complex and the bankers do not want someone like Ron Paul in office. Ron Paul does not vote based on lobbyist, he votes based on the Constitution and his personal values. In other words, he does not pander to those that contribute to the GOP.

This is not true for a majority of the GOP, most respect Ron Paul and love that he is bringing people into the party.

But the ''Neo-Con'' sector of the GOP that has taken over has worked very hard to make him out as being a kook, even though all his policies are correct and from past party platforms. [in fact if you read the Texas GOP platform and change a few words like ''Preemptive'' and the [censored] bashing, you have RP's platform.''

Texas GOP platform (http://www.texasgop.org/site/DocServer/2006_Plat_with_TOC_2.pdf?docID=2022)

If all the policies of Ron Paul were followed, there would be no need for Washington Lobbyists. There would be a lot of people out of work in Washington.

In other words, RP is a threat to the GOP money base. However you are starting to see them jump ship and support Democrats this year. I guess they can be bought.



Never a truer post was made. Those organizations that Za mentions are selling this country, it's not that they're evil or bad, they're just good businesspeople. They don't much care about this country, they care about free markets and Adam Smith and business philosophy.

BTW - while your swallowing the MIC and Pharm, and Hospitals don't want Ron Paul, remember that they have no problem with either Obama or Hillary. If you really think things are going to better with a Democratic President, you may be in for a surprise.

I think Ron Paul is nuts, but at least he understands that we aren't being served well by business, a good place to start.

Great piece form the Aspen times:



In election 2008, don�t forget Angry White Man





Gary Hubbell
February 9, 2008




There is a great amount of interest in this year�s presidential elections, as everybody seems to recognize that our next president has to be a lot better than George Bush. The Democrats are riding high with two groundbreaking candidates � a woman and an African-American � while the conservative Republicans are in a quandary about their party�s nod to a quasi-liberal maverick, John McCain.

Each candidate is carefully pandering to a smorgasbord of special-interest groups, ranging from [censored], lesbian and transgender people to children of illegal immigrants to working mothers to evangelical Christians.

There is one group no one has recognized, and it is the group that will decide the election: the Angry White Man. The Angry White Man comes from all economic backgrounds, from dirt-poor to filthy rich. He represents all geographic areas in America, from urban sophisticate to rural redneck, deep South to mountain West, left Coast to Eastern Seaboard.

His common traits are that he isn�t looking for anything from anyone � just the promise to be able to make his own way on a level playing field. In many cases, he is an independent businessman and employs several people. He pays more than his share of taxes and works hard.

The victimhood syndrome buzzwords � �disenfranchised,� �marginalized� and �voiceless� � don�t resonate with him. �Press �one� for English� is a curse-word to him. He�s used to picking up the tab, whether it�s the company Christmas party, three sets of braces, three college educations or a beautiful wedding.

He believes the Constitution is to be interpreted literally, not as a �living document� open to the whims and vagaries of a panel of judges who have never worked an honest day in their lives.

The Angry White Man owns firearms, and he�s willing to pick up a gun to defend his home and his country. He is willing to lay down his life to defend the freedom and safety of others, and the thought of killing someone who needs killing really doesn�t bother him.

The Angry White Man is not a metrosexual, a homosexual or a victim. Nobody like him drowned in Hurricane Katrina � he got his people together and got the hell out, then went back in to rescue those too helpless and stupid to help themselves, often as a police officer, a National Guard soldier or a volunteer firefighter.

His last name and religion don�t matter. His background might be Italian, English, Polish, German, Slavic, Irish, or Russian, and he might have Cherokee, Mexican, or Puerto Rican mixed in, but he considers himself a white American.

He�s a man�s man, the kind of guy who likes to play poker, watch football, hunt white-tailed deer, call turkeys, play golf, spend a few bucks at a strip club once in a blue moon, change his own oil and build things. He coaches baseball, soccer and football teams and doesn�t ask for a penny. He�s the kind of guy who can put an addition on his house with a couple of friends, drill an oil well, weld a new bumper for his truck, design a factory and publish books. He can fill a train with 100,000 tons of coal and get it to the power plant on time so that you keep the lights on and never know what it took to flip that light switch.

Women either love him or hate him, but they know he�s a man, not a dishrag. If they�re looking for someone to walk all over, they�ve got the wrong guy. He stands up straight, opens doors for women and says �Yes, sir� and �No, ma�am.�

He might be a Republican and he might be a Democrat; he might be a Libertarian or a Green. He knows that his wife is more emotional than rational, and he guides the family in a rational manner.

He�s not a racist, but he is annoyed and disappointed when people of certain backgrounds exhibit behavior that typifies the worst stereotypes of their race. He�s willing to give everybody a fair chance if they work hard, play by the rules and learn English.

Most important, the Angry White Man is [censored] off. When his job site becomes flooded with illegal workers who don�t pay taxes and his wages drop like a stone, he gets righteously angry. When his job gets shipped overseas, and he has to speak to some incomprehensible idiot in India for tech support, he simmers. When Al Sharpton comes on TV, leading some rally for reparations for slavery or some such nonsense, he bites his tongue and he remembers. When a child gets charged with carrying a concealed weapon for mistakenly bringing a penknife to school, he takes note of who the local idiots are in education and law enforcement.

He also votes, and the Angry White Man loathes Hillary Clinton. Her voice reminds him of a shovel scraping a rock. He recoils at the mere sight of her on television. Her very image disgusts him, and he cannot fathom why anyone would want her as their leader. It�s not that she is a woman. It�s that she is who she is. It�s the liberal victim groups she panders to, the �poor me� attitude that she represents, her inability to give a straight answer to an honest question, his tax dollars that she wants to give to people who refuse to do anything for themselves.

There are many millions of Angry White Men. Four million Angry White Men are members of the National Rifle Association, and all of them will vote against Hillary Clinton, just as the great majority of them voted for George Bush.

He hopes that she will be the Democratic nominee for president in 2008, and he will make sure that she gets beaten like a drum.

Gary Hubbell is a regular columnist with the Aspen Times Weekly.

Yawn!

I'm sorry but this guy mis-characterized the angry white male. Since no one has told him, the rich white guy has gotten filthy rich under the Clinton and Bush admins. Those guys aren't angry, they're scared they might lose their cash cow, the American tax payer.

They only thing that scares them worse is that the middle class angry white guy might wake up and realize that they're aren't supporting the poor in this country nearly as much as they are supporting the rich.

I gather you're not self employed?

Dave. You're not self-employed. You work for your wife and she's rich. You should have negotiated a better prenup if she's restricting your milk money. ;) :o:D

I think that if you'll check your facts I am the founder, president, 51% owner and the signature on all contracts.
It is OUR business but 2% more mine than hers. :D

Now hurry back to work so they can tell you what to do. :p

I think that if you'll check your facts I am the founder, president, 51% owner and the signature on all contracts.
It is OUR business but 2% more mine than hers. :D




I'd sell her the 2%. Then you can claim to be a minority owned business...

I should already qualify.

Lets see......... I'm married, self employed, white, have kids in college, sell insurance for a living, and pay my taxes.

Hell, if that doesn't qualify
it should at least get me a Handi-cap parking sticker. :D

That was a very funny article.... one could replace Angry White Man with Angry White Woman as well!

Thanks for the chuckle!

In the vein of light-hearted immigration whackiness that is this day....

President Felipe Calderon of Mexico has announced that Mexico will not participate in the Beijing Summer Olympics.

He stated:
"Casi cada uno que puede funcionar, saltar, o la nadada ha salido ya del pams."

Translation:
"Pretty much everyone who can run, jump, or swim has already left the country"

:eek: :o:D;)

Post deleted by Lyle O. Ross

Post deleted by Lyle O. Ross

Clients that tell me how do do my business don't stay clients. :p

Post deleted by Lyle O. Ross

Its not a question of customer service. I don't tell my doctor how to treat me and I don't need a non-insurance person telling me how to do my business. ;)

Yea, I've seen them, they are nothing new and have been around for a while. The BIG companies as you call them have tried that many times. The problem is that when you need service do you want to talk to Samjir in New Deli or do you want some one that knows what they are doing and will fight for you when you need it.
The BIG companies will not do that for you. Plus when your policy comes up for renewal, do you really think the BIG companies will shop your coverage to the market, making sure you are getting the best price and benefits and then help you understand what is being offered and advise you of your options.
I don't think so. :p

Good luck becoming yor own agent.



Just so you know, the big compaies are fine for buying a term life policy or maybe even an auto or home policy.
My specialty is group health insurance and benefits.
The last thing an employer wants is BIG company noservice. They want a represenative in their corner and that us. ;)

Post deleted by Lyle O. Ross

Post deleted by Lyle O. Ross

A little bird told me. ;)

Small Employers account for about 80% of our business.
The rest are larger employers and yes we do write municipalities.

And it IS very interesting, especially around election time.
:oNothing like listening to politicians with no real knowledge about the industry. :mad:other than what they have been told by thier advisors and consultants.

BTW - insurance is one of the first things that people cut out when they have no discretionary money. This is the reason why greater than 50% of the country is no longer insured.

Let me ask you a question, what was the number of small insurance companies 15 years ago? How many are there today?

What products are you selling? Are you a general agent? A broker? Financial adviser? How do you think annuity sales are going to go given the stock market? Do you sell Med Sup? Get ready for rough times.



Lyle,

You're such a thoughtful and gracious person. ;)
I am sure that everyone reading your posts is as entertained as me, NOT.

So, let's ask you what you do everyday that affords you the opportunty to share all YOUR thoughts?

How are your kiddos doing? Are you enjoying your time at home with them?

I read and read your posts all the time, shake my head and laugh. No need to be telling someone their business unless you have more information than they do, and in this case, I doubt you have grounds. Have you ever owned your own business? Worked in an environment where you have to sell, sell and sell again? Starting everyday at zero?

When you've done those things, come back and let's talk again.

[/QUOTE]This is the reason why greater than 50% of the country is no longer insured.

[/QUOTE]

Source please.

Also, what type of insurance?

Have you seen these new web sites the big Insurance Companies are developing? The ones that allow customers to buy their insurance without an agent?



That statement reminds me about folks who invest online for themselves. Just cause you can, doesn't mean it's good. Personally, I enjoy taking advantage of the expertise of my broker, be it for stock or insurance.

Post deleted by Lyle O. Ross

Lyle,

I was a broker for over 15 years, and we NEVER recommended Enron. We couldn't understand the balance sheet and NEVER invested in that company.


Lyle, I've been a member of HFDS since 2001, when did you join? I don't recall seeing you at ProWorlds, and when I was an officer I don't remember you being around then. If you where, I'm sorry. As for the concrete, that issue has been around lots longer than either one of us. I hadn't even thought about OM when I wrote that post. As for OM concrete, that was a private venture and Andi dealt with the developer, we didn't personally or as a club.

You seem to think I'm on a "manner's" binge, but you are wrong. What's even sadder, is you don't know why I'm saying the things I am saying.

I was under the impression that you had worked in a scientific sort of field, not insurance. It's your wife's family that is in the business, right? How much time do you dovote to this business, is it your primary source of income?

If it is, you better be ready for the big downturn. etc. etc.

You always seem to be an expert on everything, and that gets old. So, we will continue to agree to disagree.

Can't argue that Sue.

I have proven with my scenerio that Americans do not want mexican jobs..heck they cannot even perform the job that the mexicans do.



Exactly what is it that Americans CANNOT do? Wash dishes, do landscaping? pick vegetables? Are you kidding me? or just yourself?



<font color="red"> I'm still dying to know exactly what it is that Americans CANNOT do? </font>

I have proven with my scenerio that Americans do not want mexican jobs..heck they cannot even perform the job that the mexicans do.



Exactly what is it that Americans CANNOT do? Wash dishes, do landscaping? pick vegetables? Are you kidding me? or just yourself?



<font color="red"> I'm still dying to know exactly what it is that Americans CANNOT do? </font>



<font color="red"> Leach off other country's apparently :D</font>

I have proven with my scenerio that Americans do not want mexican jobs..heck they cannot even perform the job that the mexicans do.



Exactly what is it that Americans CANNOT do? Wash dishes, do landscaping? pick vegetables? Are you kidding me? or just yourself?



To name a few...don't forget construction.


Take it from an employer who knows. Americans <font color="red">cannot </font> work as hard as mexican immigrants. I have hired every American applicant that has applied to my restaurant and not one has been able to perform. I didn't mention that the mexican workers have already worked a full 8 hours at their other job before coming in for thier dinner shift...whereas the Americans can just rest all day before coming in.

As far as your earlier assumptions about my work environment...2/3 of my staff has been with the company over 5 years...I pay americans a minimum of $10 per hour to start...check out Pizza's wages.

Those of you with simple solutions to immigration reform please respond.


The following scenerio is applicable to roughly 2/3 of the restaurant employers in the midwest...

Upon my college graduation I took a job with a major restaurant group in Ft. Worth, TX as a front of house manager in 2001. 100% of thier kitchen staff were mexican immigrants (not sure how many were legal but it has less than 10%). In 2004 I was promoted to Sr. Kitchen manager and moved to Tulsa, OK. The same scenerio holds true about the kitchen staff in my new restaurant.

Since the time I took over the hiring of kitchen personel I have hired every American (white or black) that has applied. Not one has lasted more than 2 months most don't last 2 days. Currently I don't have any americans working for me.

All of the mexicans that I have hired have filled out the required paperwork for employment in the U.S. (W4 and I9) in additon to those we fill out the OK New Hire form which is faxed into the state to verify citizenship. This is part of House Bill 1804 which is widely considered the stricted immigration policy in the nation. I would like to point out that it is illegal for me to ask an applicant if they are a citizen or not.

Since the time I began hiring I have done everything that I am required to make sure that we are hiring legal workers. I inherited some employment practices from the 90's and have hired every American that has applied in an effort to turn the tide. The americans have let me down as we cannot do it without the mexicans.

For those of you who think we should deport all illegals...this would put many restaurants (including mine) out of business...which in turn would leave all of the front of house employees and managers without a job. Similiar scenarios are applical amonst the construction and agriculture indusrties nation wide. Getting rid of illegals will put INNOCENT US citizens out of work.

What should we do?

Maybe instead of invading Iraq we should have invaded Mexico instead? :D

And speaking of "Angry White Women", my girlfriend is definitely anti-Hillery but not for the reasons noted on this thread. Her deal has more to do will her hatred of Bill because he screwed around on his wife and the fact that Hillery didn't divorce him.

The problem is not that Americans CANNOT do what immigrants do. The problem is that we have put it in the minds of Americans that they do not have to settle for just any job, so they think they shouldn't work at any job that is not socially acceptable. Why work a demeaning job and get made fun of when you can just sit around and let the government support you? Our government has made our people lazy and the immigrants are benefitting from it.

The problem is not that Americans CANNOT do what immigrants do. The problem is that we have put it in the minds of Americans that they do not have to settle for just any job, so they think they shouldn't work at any job that is not socially acceptable. Why work a demeaning job and get made fun of when you can just sit around and let the government support you? Our government has made our people lazy and the immigrants are benefitting from it.



^^^^^^THE NEXT PRESIDENT^^^^^
I agree hands down with this statement!

I agree. Being born and raised here tends to give some people a sense of entitlement and a fear of being considered "low class" so if someone works at McDonalds some people immediately consider them to be sub-standard and uneducated.

But we love those cheap hamburgers though. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Those of you with simple solutions to immigration reform please respond.


The following scenerio is applicable to roughly 2/3 of the restaurant employers in the midwest...

Upon my college graduation I took a job with a major restaurant group in Ft. Worth, TX as a front of house manager in 2001. 100% of thier kitchen staff were mexican immigrants (not sure how many were legal but it has less than 10%). In 2004 I was promoted to Sr. Kitchen manager and moved to Tulsa, OK. The same scenerio holds true about the kitchen staff in my new restaurant.

Since the time I took over the hiring of kitchen personel I have hired every American (white or black) that has applied. Not one has lasted more than 2 months most don't last 2 days. Currently I don't have any americans working for me.

All of the mexicans that I have hired have filled out the required paperwork for employment in the U.S. (W4 and I9) in additon to those we fill out the OK New Hire form which is faxed into the state to verify citizenship. This is part of House Bill 1804 which is widely considered the stricted immigration policy in the nation. I would like to point out that it is illegal for me to ask an applicant if they are a citizen or not.

Since the time I began hiring I have done everything that I am required to make sure that we are hiring legal workers. I inherited some employment practices from the 90's and have hired every American that has applied in an effort to turn the tide. The americans have let me down as we cannot do it without the mexicans.

For those of you who think we should deport all illegals...this would put many restaurants (including mine) out of business...which in turn would leave all of the front of house employees and managers without a job. Similiar scenarios are applical amonst the construction and agriculture indusrties nation wide. Getting rid of illegals will put INNOCENT US citizens out of work.

What should we do?


Cant say you did not try! I dont know the answer I just think it is yet another bad example or goverment is setting for it citizens and the world :confused:

What ever happened to the days where a little bit of pride was a good thing? I would rather make minimum wage and attempt to support myself and mine then be considered a dead beat. (Not saying EVERYBODY on welfare is a dead beat, but we really do need better regulations on who should qualify for assistance.)

How about a time limit on how long one can be on it :confused: instead of generation after generation :confused:

100% of thier kitchen staff were mexican immigrants (not sure how many were legal but it has less than 10%).



10% legal :confused: They were the problem.


All of the mexicans that I have hired have filled out the required paperwork for employment in the U.S. (W4 and I9) in additon to those we fill out the OK New Hire form which is faxed into the state to verify citizenship. This is part of House Bill 1804 which is widely considered the stricted immigration policy in the nation. I would like to point out that it is illegal for me to ask an applicant if they are a citizen or not.



Now you are a part of the solution. It is a 1000 fine if you DON'T have that I-9 filled out properly and restaurants are prime targets.

I had heard about OK, new policy. BTW, when filling out the I-9 unless they had false papers, you were asking them if they were here legally.

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Illegal aliens will deport themselves
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YOU GO OKLAHOMA

BTW, those homebuilders are part of the problem.

I inherited some employment practices from the 90's and have hired every American that has applied in an effort to turn the tide. The americans have let me down as we cannot do it without the mexicans.



I have the question on my application ''Do you speak any other Language fluently [please specify]''

If they have ''Spanish'' in that space, they get moved to the top of the list. The Hispanic community is rather large in my delivery area and it is good business to have some Spanish speaking employee's.

Also, with all the other applications I tend to look for people in school or paying there own way.

Now that is just drivers.

For inside people, I only hire high school kids. I don't pay enough for someone trying to pay there own way to pay there bills. But again, if I can hire an inside kid who speaks Spanish, they get called first.

I only have one driver who speaks some Spanish. I don't get many applications or they don't work out. [you have to be able to speak/read/write English to work for me]

But at one time, it was me and one other person who didn't speak Spanish. I just am not getting those applications right now. BTW, being able to take an order over the phone in Spanish gets you a 25 cent raise right off the bat. So in other words, employees who speak Spanish are worth more to me, in fact I am hiring a 19 year old kid who comes from a Spanish family this weekend. He is living on his own and has already done pizza before. [driver of course]

Just a little mild, on-topic humor in real life: I checked on the weather for an upcoming tournament here in the land of six months of winter. On the accuweather home page Obama had a big advertisement. I guess anyone checking the weather around here is hoping for change. :D

100% of thier kitchen staff were mexican immigrants (not sure how many were legal but it has less than 10%).



10% legal :confused: They were the problem. <font color="red"> Bryan, I am still only 10% legal, the majority of my staff has been here longer than me...and NOT ONE of the legals that have been hired since can do the work. Every single one of them has quit. </font>


All of the mexicans that I have hired have filled out the required paperwork for employment in the U.S. (W4 and I9) in additon to those we fill out the OK New Hire form which is faxed into the state to verify citizenship. This is part of House Bill 1804 which is widely considered the stricted immigration policy in the nation. I would like to point out that it is illegal for me to ask an applicant if they are a citizen or not.



Now you are a part of the solution. It is a 1000 fine if you DON'T have that I-9 filled out properly and restaurants are prime targets. <font color="red"> Part of the solution? I keep getting accused as part of the problem on this board. </font>

I had heard about OK, new policy. BTW, when filling out the I-9 unless they had false papers, you were asking them if they were here legally.

<font color="red"> They all have false papers Dude. There is nothing that I can do about it. They look real and I make sure that all of the paperwork is filled out correctly.</font>




Those of you who think that I am part of the problem and should be fined heavily...can cram in up your cramhole. ;)


Now those of you who think that we should deport all illegals, I would love to hear your solution to my scenerio without putting innocent Americans out of work?

I too have been given false information. [false SS cards]

This is one of the things we will have to look forward to if a Democrat is elected. My hope is that immigration becomes the BIGGEST issue in the race. [even though I consider McCain very week on Immigration.

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Trust me, the grass root organizations are growing like wildfire, they are gaining membership and cash all the time and will be working on electing people who will actually do something to curtail the problem like Oklahoma did.

I tried to find the video where an illegal family moved from OK to AR because of the new laws.

Homeland Security Secretary Chertoff and Attorney General Mukasey have announced three new penalties and requirements for companies that deliberately hire illegal aliens:

(1) For the first time since 1999, fines on employers (any employer) who knowingly hire illegal aliens will increase:


* Previous minimum penalty: $275. New penalty: $375.

* Previous maximum penalty for a first violation: $2,200. New penalty: $3,200.

* Previous maximum civil penalty for multiple violations: $11,000. New penalty: $16,000.


(2) All federal contractors will be required to use the E-Verify system. Secretary Chertoff does not want federal contractors hiring illegal aliens to help build the fence along the southern border. He noted that 53,000 employers currently use the E-Verify system on a voluntary basis, and 1.7 million new hires were checked this fiscal year.

(3) All companies will be encouraged to follow up with workers if there are discrepancies with the Social Security numbers they use. Out of approximately 250 million wage reports the SSA receives each year, as many as four percent belong to employees whose names and corresponding Social Security numbers do not match SSA�s records.

Please send this fax to your Member of Congress and encourage them to fully fund these enforcement measures, and to bolster them by opposing any effort to reward illegal aliens with a 5-year work visa.

Homeland Security Secretary Chertoff and Attorney General Mukasey have announced three new penalties and requirements for companies that deliberately hire illegal aliens:

(1) For the first time since 1999, fines on employers (any employer) who knowingly hire illegal aliens will increase:


* Previous minimum penalty: $275. New penalty: $375.

* Previous maximum penalty for a first violation: $2,200. New penalty: $3,200.

* Previous maximum civil penalty for multiple violations: $11,000. New penalty: $16,000.


(2) All federal contractors will be required to use the E-Verify system. Secretary Chertoff does not want federal contractors hiring illegal aliens to help build the fence along the southern border. He noted that 53,000 employers currently use the E-Verify system on a voluntary basis, and 1.7 million new hires were checked this fiscal year.

(3) All companies will be encouraged to follow up with workers if there are discrepancies with the Social Security numbers they use. Out of approximately 250 million wage reports the SSA receives each year, as many as four percent belong to employees whose names and corresponding Social Security numbers do not match SSA�s records.

Please send this fax to your Member of Congress and encourage them to fully fund these enforcement measures, and to bolster them by opposing any effort to reward illegal aliens with a 5-year work visa.





I just saw an email with this same information in it. I LOVE IT!!

How about a time limit on how long one can be on it :confused: instead of generation after generation :confused:



I'm no expert on welfare, but wasn't this addressed by the welfare reforms of the 90s? Wasn't this part of what Clinton and the Republican congress were so proud of?

How about a time limit on how long one can be on it :confused: instead of generation after generation :confused:



I'm no expert on welfare, but wasn't this addressed by the welfare reforms of the 90s? Wasn't this part of what Clinton and the Republican congress were so proud of?



Smoke and Mirror's :D

Those of you who think that I am part of the problem and should be fined heavily...can cram in up your cramhole. ;)



Anyone and EVERYONE who hires illegals, either knowingly or unknowingly, is guilty of this problem! I agree with these steep fines in hopes that this will at least help curtail some of this ILLEGAL business. If you can't find a way to do business LEGALLY, then you shouldn't be in business! You dangled that carrot and sure enough, they came to get it! The problems STARTS there! If they KNEW they wouldn't be able to get work over here LEGALLY, they wouldn't have come in droves!

Those of you who think that I am part of the problem and should be fined heavily...can cram in up your cramhole. ;)



Anyone and EVERYONE who hires illegals, either knowingly or unknowingly, is guilty of this problem! I agree with these steep fines in hopes that this will at least help curtail some of this ILLEGAL business. If you can't find a way to do business LEGALLY, then you shouldn't be in business! You dangled that carrot and sure enough, they came to get it! The problems STARTS there! If they KNEW they wouldn't be able to get work over here LEGALLY, they wouldn't have come in droves!



So much for innocent until proven guilty.

Or are you just anti-business in general?

There's a great report out in the news today. The non-partisan PPI (Public Policy Institute) did a study on crime in California. It turns out the the crime rate amongst immigrants, both legal and illegal is significantly lower per capita than the crime rate amongst native born Americans. If we want America to be safe, we shouldn't be trying to ship illegal immigrants back, we should be shipping Americans to Mexico. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

The better story is the fence story. It turns out if you look at the map of the fence between Mexico and America it's not solid. There's all these breaks in it. Let's see, it goes right through nature reserves where it's going to disrupt predator prey relationships and endanger species, it goes right through the yards of middle class home owners, and it goes right through small towns with no real representation. Oh yes, there's a break, it stops right on the side of that ranch owned by GW Bush's buds and then starts on the other side. In fact it skips all large ranches and a couple of golf courses too! See, the real purpose of the fence isn't to stop immigrants from coming in, it's to direct them where they're the most needed...

There was a Penn and Teller episode on Showtime a year or so ago about the effectiveness of a border fence. They went out and found some undocumented workers and paid them to build a section of the proposed fence. It took the entire day. They then split them into teams to see if it was faster to go through, under or over the fence they'd just spent the entire day building. I don' t remember who exactly won but all were on the other side in no time at all. I guess "around" will be an option as well.

Those of you who think that I am part of the problem and should be fined heavily...can cram in up your cramhole. ;)



Anyone and EVERYONE who hires illegals, either knowingly or unknowingly, is guilty of this problem! I agree with these steep fines in hopes that this will at least help curtail some of this ILLEGAL business. If you can't find a way to do business LEGALLY, then you shouldn't be in business! You dangled that carrot and sure enough, they came to get it! The problems STARTS there! If they KNEW they wouldn't be able to get work over here LEGALLY, they wouldn't have come in droves!



So much for innocent until proven guilty.

Or are you just anti-business in general?



I'm PRO IMMIGRATION. Period.

Those of you who think that I am part of the problem and should be fined heavily...can cram in up your cramhole. ;)



Anyone and EVERYONE who hires illegals, either knowingly or unknowingly, is guilty of this problem! I agree with these steep fines in hopes that this will at least help curtail some of this ILLEGAL business. If you can't find a way to do business LEGALLY, then you shouldn't be in business! You dangled that carrot and sure enough, they came to get it! The problems STARTS there! If they KNEW they wouldn't be able to get work over here LEGALLY, they wouldn't have come in droves!



So much for innocent until proven guilty.

Or are you just anti-business in general?



I'm PRO IMMIGRATION. Period.



I should re-phrase that. I'm PRO LEGAL IMMIGRATION. Period.

I am pro LEGAL immigration too. I think they have made it too hard for the uneducated immigrant to come to the US to work. [unless you are working in the fields]

I know this first hand because I tried to get one of my former employees back from Argentina.

If they didn't make it so hard, they would not sneak across the border. [noticed I still can't spell

I am pro LEGAL immigration too. I think they have made it too hard for the uneducated immigrant to come to the US to work. [unless you are working in the fields]

I know this first hand because I tried to get one of my former employees back from Argentina.

If they didn't make it so hard, they would not sneak across the boarder.



KUDOS to you for running your business LEGALLY. Maybe those who are running their business ILLEGALLY can learn something from you!

http://www.paulunteer.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/feb-26-lowest-point-ever-usd.png

KUDOS to you for running your business LEGALLY. Maybe those who are running their business ILLEGALLY can learn something from you!



What is wrong with you...do you not know how to read?

My hiring practices are as legalas it gets. I make sure all new hire paperwork is filled out correctly ( including the OK new hire form which is part of the strictest immigration laws in the nation). I am not allowed to ask them thier country of origin or citizenship status.

We just all assume that they are illegal because they are hispanic...oh wait, that's discrimmination. :confused:

1. $11 Billion to $22 billion is spent on welfare to illegal aliens each year. http://tinyurl.com/zob77%20

2. $2.2 Billion dollars a year is spent on food assistance programs such as food stamps, WIC, and free school lunches for illegal aliens.
http://www.cis..org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html

3. $2.5 Billion dollars a year is spent on Medicaid for illegal aliens.
http://www.cis..org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html

4. $12 Billion dollars a year is spent on primary and secondary school education for children of illegal aliens and they cannot speak a word of English!
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.0.html

5. $17 Billion dollars a year is spent for education for the American-born children of illegal aliens, known as anchor babies.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html

6. $3 Million Dollars a DAY is spent to incarcerate illegal aliens.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html

7. 30% percent of all Federal Prison inmates are illegal aliens.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html

8. $90 Billion Dollars a year is spent on illegal aliens for Welfare &amp; social services by the American taxpayers.
http://premium.cnn.com/TRANSCIPTS/0610/29/ldt.01.html

9. $200 Billion Dollars a year in suppressed American wages are caused by illegal aliens.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html

10. The illegal aliens in the United States have a crime rate that's two and a half times that of white non-illegal aliens. In particular, their children, are going to make a huge additional crime problem in the US.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0606/12/ldt.01.html

11. During the year of 2005 there were 4 to 10 MILLION illegal aliens that crossed our Southern Border also, as many as 19,500 illegal aliens from Terrorist countries. Millions of pounds of drugs, cocaine, meth, heroin and marijuana, crossed into the U.S. from the Southern border.
Homeland Security Report:
http://tinyurl.com/t9sht

12. In 2006 illegal aliens sent home $45 BILLION in remittances back to their countries of origin.
http://www.rense.com/general75/niht.htm

13. The Dark Side of Illegal Immigration: nearly one million sex crimes are committed by illegal aliens in The United States.
http://www.drdsk.com/articleshtml



The total cost is: $338.3 BILLION dollars a year.

Where are the dollar figures for legal citizens? :confused:

a clip from Australian TV

<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/RMD_X49InCQ"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/RMD_X49InCQ" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>

1. $11 Billion to $22 billion is spent on welfare to illegal aliens each year. http://tinyurl.com/zob77%20




That is a major disparity in money spent...especially since you have to be a citizen to recieve welfare. :confused:

Here ya go (http://immigration.about.com/od/ussocialeconomicissues/i/WelfareHealthC.htm) champ...

1. $11 Billion to $22 billion is spent on welfare to illegal aliens each year. http://tinyurl.com/zob77%20




That is a major disparity in money spent...especially since you have to be a citizen to recieve welfare. :confused:



Ah, can't read eh


Some people mistakenly think that immigrants are not eligible for welfare. Several years ago, Congress did attempt to render immigrants ineligible for most forms of welfare. However, subsequent backpedaling by Congress and the executive branch has undone most of those reforms. Furthermore, many immigrant families get welfare through the eligibility of their U.S. citizen children. (It is also important to realize that even when immigrants are ineligible for federal welfare programs, the burden of their support is simply shifted over to the state and local welfare agencies.)

KUDOS to you for running your business LEGALLY. Maybe those who are running their business ILLEGALLY can learn something from you!



What is wrong with you...do you not know how to read?

My hiring practices are as legalas it gets.



Can't YOU read? IF you're running your business LEGALLY, then you've obviously figured out how to run a business legally as well. I'm talking about the ones who run their businesses ILLEGALLY by knowingly hiring ILLEGAL ALIENS!!!

1. $11 Billion to $22 billion is spent on welfare to illegal aliens each year. http://tinyurl.com/zob77%20

2. $2.2 Billion dollars a year is spent on food assistance programs such as food stamps, WIC, and free school lunches for illegal aliens.
http://www.cis..org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html

3. $2.5 Billion dollars a year is spent on Medicaid for illegal aliens.
http://www.cis..org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html

4. $12 Billion dollars a year is spent on primary and secondary school education for children of illegal aliens and they cannot speak a word of English!
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.0.html

5. $17 Billion dollars a year is spent for education for the American-born children of illegal aliens, known as anchor babies.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html

6. $3 Million Dollars a DAY is spent to incarcerate illegal aliens.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html

7. 30% percent of all Federal Prison inmates are illegal aliens.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html

8. $90 Billion Dollars a year is spent on illegal aliens for Welfare &amp; social services by the American taxpayers.
http://premium.cnn.com/TRANSCIPTS/0610/29/ldt.01.html

9. $200 Billion Dollars a year in suppressed American wages are caused by illegal aliens.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html

10. The illegal aliens in the United States have a crime rate that's two and a half times that of white non-illegal aliens. In particular, their children, are going to make a huge additional crime problem in the US.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0606/12/ldt.01.html

11. During the year of 2005 there were 4 to 10 MILLION illegal aliens that crossed our Southern Border also, as many as 19,500 illegal aliens from Terrorist countries. Millions of pounds of drugs, cocaine, meth, heroin and marijuana, crossed into the U.S. from the Southern border.
Homeland Security Report:
http://tinyurl.com/t9sht

12. In 2006 illegal aliens sent home $45 BILLION in remittances back to their countries of origin.
http://www.rense.com/general75/niht.htm

13. The Dark Side of Illegal Immigration: nearly one million sex crimes are committed by illegal aliens in The United States.
http://www.drdsk.com/articleshtml



The total cost is: $338.3 BILLION dollars a year.



Thank you for posting this! It's a real eye-opener to those of us opposed to ILLEGAL ALIENS turning this country into a toilet. For those who are pro-amnesty - WAKE UP AND READ THE NUMBERS!!!!

KUDOS to you for running your business LEGALLY. Maybe those who are running their business ILLEGALLY can learn something from you!



What is wrong with you...do you not know how to read?

My hiring practices are as legalas it gets.



Can't YOU read? IF you're running your business LEGALLY, then you've obviously figured out how to run a business legally as well. I'm talking about the ones who run their businesses ILLEGALLY by knowingly hiring ILLEGAL ALIENS!!!



You also lump people who unknowingly hire illegals in with those that knowingly do.

Yeah that�s right. Let's all jump on the hate wagon and burn their neighborhoods and businesses that can�t advertise in English. Or maybe we should just go ahead and invade Mexico all the way down to Mexico City so maybe then we won�t have as much fence line to guard. :)

With all due respect I think this country is capable of turning itself into a toilet with or without the illegal aliens. How about a little population control? How about a little government forced abortion to take care of the LEGAL welfare mothers popping out a illegitimate child every year and a half? How about a little government forced castration for all the LEGAL dead beat dads that aren�t paying their child support and blaming the illegal�s for stealing his job? Right. Like he�s really going to pick fruit or go work in a restaurant for minimum wage or less.

And while we�re at it, let�s show the world that we can be mass killing vengeful fanatics too by flying a couple of 747�s into Mecca, the holy site of Muslims. What a movie that would be. Maybe they could even get Harrison Ford to play the angry white man? :cool:

1. $11 Billion to $22 billion is spent on welfare to illegal aliens each year. http://tinyurl.com/zob77%20

2. $2.2 Billion dollars a year is spent on food assistance programs such as food stamps, WIC, and free school lunches for illegal aliens.
http://www.cis..org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html

3. $2.5 Billion dollars a year is spent on Medicaid for illegal aliens.
http://www.cis..org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html

4. $12 Billion dollars a year is spent on primary and secondary school education for children of illegal aliens and they cannot speak a word of English!
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.0.html

5. $17 Billion dollars a year is spent for education for the American-born children of illegal aliens, known as anchor babies.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html

6. $3 Million Dollars a DAY is spent to incarcerate illegal aliens.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html

7. 30% percent of all Federal Prison inmates are illegal aliens.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html

8. $90 Billion Dollars a year is spent on illegal aliens for Welfare &amp; social services by the American taxpayers.
http://premium.cnn.com/TRANSCIPTS/0610/29/ldt.01.html

9. $200 Billion Dollars a year in suppressed American wages are caused by illegal aliens.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html

10. The illegal aliens in the United States have a crime rate that's two and a half times that of white non-illegal aliens. In particular, their children, are going to make a huge additional crime problem in the US.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0606/12/ldt.01.html

11. During the year of 2005 there were 4 to 10 MILLION illegal aliens that crossed our Southern Border also, as many as 19,500 illegal aliens from Terrorist countries. Millions of pounds of drugs, cocaine, meth, heroin and marijuana, crossed into the U.S. from the Southern border.
Homeland Security Report:
http://tinyurl.com/t9sht

12. In 2006 illegal aliens sent home $45 BILLION in remittances back to their countries of origin.
http://www.rense.com/general75/niht.htm

13. The Dark Side of Illegal Immigration: nearly one million sex crimes are committed by illegal aliens in The United States.
http://www.drdsk.com/articleshtml



The total cost is: $338.3 BILLION dollars a year.

oh, don't worry about all that money Cent, "The Government" pays all that! :D

With all due respect I think this country is capable of turning itself into a toilet with or without the illegal aliens. How about a little population control? How about a little government forced abortion to take care of the LEGAL welfare mothers popping out a illegitimate child every year and a half? How about a little government forced castration for all the LEGAL dead beat dads that aren�t paying their child support and blaming the illegal�s for stealing his job? Right. Like he�s really going to pick fruit or go work in a restaurant for minimum wage or less.




I agree! Brittany Spears comes to mind....she'll be on welfare shortly.

Great news for Americans and Legal Immigrants!!

There is a little bit of good news today. All of you who have been faxing and phoning all week are really having an impact.

We are getting a lot of feedback that Democratic leaders in the House are getting discouraged by the huge outpouring of public disapproval of news that Speak Pelosi is considering a 5-year amnesty for most illegal aliens, plus huge increases in foreign worker visas.

Also, Rep. Heath Shuler (D-N.C.) is standing firm in the face of tremendous pressures from within his Party to make compromises.

We now have 48 House Democrats standing against Pelosi and her open-borders wing of the Democratic Party -- 48 Democrats signed on to Shuler's SAVE Act (H.R. 4088) that would have three layers of employment verification that would effectively drive most illegal aliens out of American jobs.

But at the moment of greatest opportunity, it is the REPUBLICAN leaders in the House who are holding things up.

If they would get behind a Discharge Petition (that would force a vote on H.R. 4088 on the House floor), there now appear enough Democrats to get the 218 required signatures. In other words, the minority Party could force a vote.

But the Republican House leaders are dragging their feet out of various petty political considerations and perhaps as a favor to the U.S. Chamber of Commerce.

Already 90 House Republicans have signed H.R. 4088, led by Rep. Brian Bilbray (R-Calif.), the chairman of the Congressional Immigration Reform Caucus.

Friends, this is not the time to let up. Rep. Shuler believes he has a chance to pass this great enforcement bill to truly reduce the illegal population in our communities.

That is why we have put on your Action Buffet corkboards some special actions, based on your own Member of Congress.

We have one set of actions for those of you with Democratic Representatives.

We have another set of actions for those of you in a state with one of the House Republican leaders.

And another if you have a Republican Representative who has signed the SAVE Act.

And there are other actions to take based on local and state issues, as well as other immigration issues.

Please go to your customized Action Buffet corkboard now and send faxes.

Then, make those phone calls Friday morning.

You are making a difference in a very difficult time on the Hill. The open borders forces thought they saw a big opportunity to spring a disaster on the nation while it was distracted by the Presidential Primaries. You proved them wrong.

Now, let's push the SAVE Act to a vote.

It is enforcement-only. It will immediately open up hundreds of thousands of jobs to American citizens and legal immigrants who already are here.

You know how wonderful have been the results of state laws passed in Oklahoma, Georgia and Arizona. The SAVE Act essentially does what those state laws do, except on a national level.

I can read fine.

Here is a quote from the same article
"Illegal immigrants are barred from the following federal public benefits: grants, contracts, loans, licenses, retirement, welfare , health, disability, public or assisted housing, post secondary education, food assistance, and unemployment benefits."


Most of those figures appear to be unsubstantiated anyway. Anything from the FAIR or alipac websites are going to be skewed in thier own direction and are not to be trusted.

KUDOS to you for running your business LEGALLY. Maybe those who are running their business ILLEGALLY can learn something from you!



What is wrong with you...do you not know how to read?

My hiring practices are as legalas it gets.



Can't YOU read? IF you're running your business LEGALLY, then you've obviously figured out how to run a business legally as well. I'm talking about the ones who run their businesses ILLEGALLY by knowingly hiring ILLEGAL ALIENS!!!





As quote from Winnetka Girl" <font color="red">
Anyone and EVERYONE who hires illegals, either knowingly or unknowingly, is guilty of this problem!</font>


How come you cannot come up with a solution to the problem. I laid out my specific scenerio and you just back peddle and repeat yourself talking about dangling carrots. Just one complaint after another; no realistic solutions.


You're a real Renaissance man. :confused:

Well Jake if not the Oklahoma law then what do you recommend as a solution to the problem? I understand where you're coming from with your business but if you were going to move to another country to make a living wouldn't you try and learn the language first? :confused:

I can read fine.

Here is a quote from the same article
"Illegal immigrants are barred from the following federal public benefits: grants, contracts, loans, licenses, retirement, welfare , health, disability, public or assisted housing, post secondary education, food assistance, and unemployment benefits."


Most of those figures appear to be unsubstantiated anyway. Anything from the FAIR or alipac websites are going to be skewed in thier own direction and are not to be trusted.



Here you go...


Although illegal immigrants are ineligible for welfare, food stamps and other public service programs, they can obtain some of them by using false identification papers.

How come you cannot come up with a solution to the problem. I laid out my specific scenerio and you just back peddle and repeat yourself talking about dangling carrots. Just one complaint after another; no realistic solutions.



Here's the plan...

Back off and let those men who want to marry
men, marry men.

Allow those women who want to marry women,
marry women.

Allow those folks who want to abort their
babies, abort their babies.

In three generations, there will be no
Democrats !!!

How come you cannot come up with a solution to the problem. I laid out my specific scenerio and you just back peddle and repeat yourself talking about dangling carrots. Just one complaint after another; no realistic solutions.



Here's the plan...

Back off and let those men who want to marry
men, marry men.

Allow those women who want to marry women,
marry women.

Allow those folks who want to abort their
babies, abort their babies.

In three generations, there will be no
Democrats !!!




There is a good one.

Well Jake if not the Oklahoma law then what do you recommend as a solution to the problem? I understand where you're coming from with your business but if you were going to move to another country to make a living wouldn't you try and learn the language first? :confused:



There has to be some sort of amnesty/increased visa system. It is basically the same thing your just calling it something different. There has tobe some middle ground on this issue, nobody thinks that it is right for them to leach off the US not even themselves.

With a combination amnesty/increased visa the major issues will be addressed. They can pay taxes, get drivers liscenes and insurance, be in the crimnal system and be prosecuted accordingly, and if they qualify for welfare then so
be it...it will all be done legally.



As stated earlier, I beleive that US unemployment rates will rise without mexicans. No matter how much money the the illegals cost the taxpayers that money is already allocated. We already pay taxes. Does anybody think that we will see a tax cut if we deport all of the mexicans? I think not. What about a decrease in health care costs? I think not. However, you will see an increase in the price of food.

Long story short it will cost us more to get rid of them than to keep them.
&lt;post edited for offensive material&gt;

Ok then there will have to be some strictly enforced laws.

1. You must speak English and not depend on your 8 year old kid to interpret for you.

2. Thou shalt not park thy car on thy lawn.

3. No more than 2 illegitimate kids per every 3 year period.

4. Do not have your family picnic in the middle of a DG fairway.

5. No glass bottles in the parking lot when you and your buddies gather in the local park parking lot.

6. Your women must have freedom to date hairy white guys without those guys having to worry about getting a bullet in the back.

7. All your business signs are to be written in English so hairy white guys can know what you are selling.

8. No talking about gringos in Spanish when they are standing right in front of you and they don�t understand what you are saying.

9. No more than one family per household or apartment.

10. No running back to Mexico after a hit-and-run or other criminal offense.


I�ve got others but everyone feel free to add to this list while I�m thinking of them. ;)

To those who are pro-amnesty, what if this were <font color="red">YOUR </font> kids on this bus?

"The local Fox affiliate in the Twin Cities finally confirms what the local papers didn�t seem to want to mention about the horrible school bus accident that killed four children. It didn�t have to happen:

Authorities have confirmed that the the driver of the van that struck the school bus that killed 4 students on Tuesday is an illegal alien.

Officials at the Immigration and Customs Enforcement are checking to see where she came from and how long she�s been in Minnesota. FOX 9 has also learned that the name she gave to police, Alainiss Morales, is an alias.

23-year-old Alainiss N. Morales was taken into custody on suspicion of criminal vehicular operation. She was arrested by the State Patrol Thursday afternoon and is being held in Lyon County Jail. County Attorney Rick Maes told the Marshall Independent charges could come later Thursday or Friday�The van was driven by Alianiss N. Morales, 23, of Minneota. The Fox 9 Investigator found Morales pleaded guilty in Chippewa County in 2006 to driving without a valid license.

TOPICS: Illegal Immigration, Illegal Immigrants, illegal aliens, death, murder, driving, fake id, school children, Alainiss N. Morales, school bus accident, Lyon County Jail, Minneota, sanctuary city

State Patrol officials said Thursday they were not immediately able to confirm if Morales was unlicensed, nor could they confirm whether Morales ran a stop sign. Lt. Mark Peterson said that was still under investigation, but that the investigation was �moving forward very quickly.�

The school bus was carrying 28 students. Cottonwood Fire Chief Dale Louluagie confirmed that 3 fatalities of the crash died immediately upon impact and the fourth victim died around 8 p.m. Tuesday night.

Minneapolis is a sanctuary city. In 2003, the city voted to bar police from asking about immigration status or enforcing immigration laws. The mayor, R.T. Rybak, even asked federal agents to stop wearing vests labeled �police.� St. Paul and Worthington are also sanctuary cities.

Open borders, deadly consequences. When will they learn?

More questions:

What did �Morales�s� employer know about her illegal status and when did the employer know it?

Has she evaded deportation orders? How many?

What didn�t local police ask about her immigration status when she pleaded guilty to driving without a valid license two years ago�and will the parents of the schoolchildren hold officials accountable?

Discuss this article in our Discussion Groups and meet CITIZEN ACTIVISTS!

JOIN in the Fight, Support ALIPAC: Volunteer or Contribute Today"

You do realize that the driver's status has ZERO bearing on the accident occuring.

Hey Einstein, if she wasn't in the country it wouldn't have happened.

KUDOS to you for running your business LEGALLY. Maybe those who are running their business ILLEGALLY can learn something from you!



What is wrong with you...do you not know how to read?

My hiring practices are as legalas it gets.



Can't YOU read? IF you're running your business LEGALLY, then you've obviously figured out how to run a business legally as well. I'm talking about the ones who run their businesses ILLEGALLY by knowingly hiring ILLEGAL ALIENS!!!





As quote from Winnetka Girl" <font color="red">
Anyone and EVERYONE who hires illegals, either knowingly or unknowingly, is guilty of this problem!</font>


How come you cannot come up with a solution to the problem. I laid out my specific scenerio and you just back peddle and repeat yourself talking about dangling carrots. Just one complaint after another; no realistic solutions.


You're a real Renaissance man. :confused:



First of all, I'm not a man. My name here is Winnetka FrisbeeGirl. There's a hint in the FrisbeeGirl portion for you.

Secondly, it is not my job to come up with solutions and not what this thread is about. It's about finding our next president who has experience and knowledge to deal with these issues.

Thirdly, I say "unknowingly" in a sarcastic manner and it appears you failed to pick up on that.

Hey Einstein, if she wasn't in the country it wouldn't have happened.



THANK YOU VERY MUCH! SOMEONE SEES THE LIGHT!!

Ok then there will have to be some strictly enforced laws.

1. You must speak English and not depend on your 8 year old kid to interpret for you.

2. Thou shalt not park thy car on thy lawn.

3. No more than 2 illegitimate kids per every 3 year period.

4. Do not have your family picnic in the middle of a DG fairway.

5. No glass bottles in the parking lot when you and your buddies gather in the local park parking lot.

6. Your women must have freedom to date hairy white guys without those guys having to worry about getting a bullet in the back.

7. All your business signs are to be written in English so hairy white guys can know what you are selling.

8. No talking about gringos in Spanish when they are standing right in front of you and they don�t understand what you are saying.

9. No more than one family per household or apartment.

10. No running back to Mexico after a hit-and-run or other criminal offense.


I�ve got others but everyone feel free to add to this list while I�m thinking of them. ;)



11. Know that it's okay to turn right on a red light.
12. Stop harassing the women as they go into Home Depot to shop.
13. Stop harassing women as you stand on the street corner waiting for work.
14. Stop gambling, throwing trash and peeing on our city streets.
15. Stop putting your unwanted furniture and applicances out on the curb when you move.

That's just for starters... but my biggest pet peeve - LEARN THE LANGUAGE!!

16. Respect our laws!

I love this letter from Gheen:

Immigration Enforcement Saves American Lives

To The Editors:

I am writing in response to the Mankato Free Press editorial that wrongly claims immigration enforcement is not a factor worthy of consideration in the horrific deaths of four young students in Cottonwood. Our organization, ALIPAC, represents many family members of victims of illegal aliens who now fight for immigration enforcement.

First and foremost, our hearts and prayers go out to the families of the lost children and I write today in the hopes that our message will lead to changes in Minnesota that will protect other American families from tragedies like this.

<font color="red"> The Federal government is failing our citizens on an unprecedented level as the Executive branch refuses to adequately secure our borders and enforce our existing immigration laws. This has created an illegal immigration crisis in America and it is incumbent upon our state representatives to take action to enforce these laws.

The children lost in Cottonwood would be alive today if the Federal government or the state of Minnesota had enforced our existing immigration laws. Most crimes committed by illegal aliens are preventable crimes.

While legal immigrants commit fewer crimes than US citizens, they have shown a pattern of respect and reverence for US laws. Illegal aliens commit more crimes because they have intentionally bypassed the required background checks and engaged in a pattern of criminality.

While illegal aliens come from many nations and represent many races and cultures, they all display a wanton disregard for our laws and demonstrate a pattern of criminality is reinforced and strengthened by the fact they are shown they can break many of our laws without fear of enforcement. </font>

The illegal alien driver responsible for these deaths broke a series of US laws long before she ran the stop sign and struck the bus.

It is time for the state of Minnesota to stand up on behalf of the majority of citizens that want action taken on every level of government to curtail and reverse illegal immigration. Many states are rushing to pass laws similar to the legislation in Arizona, Oklahoma, and Georgia. The fact that 40 states have passed some form of immigration enforcement laws illustrates the popular demand for such actions alongside polls showing super majorities support enforcement!

In an effort to prevent tomorrow's tragedies and save American lives, we hope Minnesotans will stand up and demand their state lawmakers take action now to protect lives, property, jobs, wages, and tax dollars in Minnesota from illegal immigration.

William Gheen
Americans for Legal Immigration PAC (ALIPAC)
www.alipac.us (http://www.alipac.us)

<font color="blue">post edited due to a personal attack / offensive material</font>

Hey Einstein, if she wasn't in the country it wouldn't have happened.



I have to disagree with this. I mean, I agree with you,
Tony's a smart guy, but Einstein? I suggest Newton. Actually, I was thinking Darwin, but then we'd have to go through the whole evolution debate and you know how that goes. You guys do believe in gravity, right?

[QUOTE]


<font color="blue">post edited due to a personal attack / offensive material</font>



I take that as a personal attack and you should be banned if you can't act like a grown up.

Unfortunately, we could post these stories all day long. I should write to them and tell them there's a nice gentleman in OK who would gladly take in all these criminals and feed them and educate them and give them jobs and pay for their medical bills. THEN this would all be a-okay with me!

LOS ANGELES -- A week-long federal law enforcement operation targeting immigration fugitives, criminals and violators netted 345 arrests in five Southland counties, customs officials announced Friday.

During the operation, which concluded Thursday, Immigration and Customs Enforcement officers arrested 194 people in Los Angeles County, 43 in Orange County, 68 in Riverside and San Bernardino counties combined and 40 in Ventura County, ICE reported.

Of those arrested, 238 were suspected immigration fugitives -- people who allegedly had ignored final orders of deportation or who returned to the United States illegally after being deported. About 20 percent of those arrested had criminal histories in addition to being in the country illegally, ICE reported.

Among those arrested was Jose Perez-Padilla, 46, a previously deported Mexican citizen and gang member whose criminal history includes felony convictions for drug sales and assault with a deadly weapon, according to ICE.

Perez-Padilla was arrested by ICE agents on Wednesday when he arrived at the Superior Court building in downtown Los Angeles to respond to state charges of possession of marijuana for sale.

He now faces prosecution by the U.S. Attorney's office for re-entry after deportation, a felony that carries a maximum penalty of 20 years in prison.

The people arrested were from 18 different countries, including Mexico, Colombia, Indonesia, Armenia, Thailand and India.

Because many of the suspects have already been through immigration proceedings, they are subject to immediate removal from the country, according to ICE.

"We want to send a strong message to those who ignore deportation orders handed down by the nation's immigration judges -- that ICE is going to use all of the tools and resources at its disposal to find you and send you home," said Brian DeMore of ICE's Los Angeles field office.

So far this year, the ICE fugitive operations teams in the Los Angeles area have made more than 1,000 arrests.

[QUOTE]


<font color="blue">post edited due to a personal attack / offensive material</font>



I take that as a personal attack and you should be banned if you can't act like a grown up.



Calm down...its the MB. :p

[QUOTE]


First of all, I'm not a man. My name here is Winnetka FrisbeeGirl. There's a hint in the FrisbeeGirl portion for you. <font color="blue"> Trust me we ALL know that you are female. I just figured that you were a butch because you are so stubborn and close minded. </font>



I take that as a personal attack and you should be banned if you can't act like a grown up.



Calm down...its the MB. :p



And what pray tell is an MB? another personal attack?
MODERATOR: Please take note!

Basically we should have started enforcing immigration laws about 516 years ago.

[QUOTE]


<font color="blue">post edited due to a personal attack / offensive material</font>



I take that as a personal attack and you should be banned if you can't act like a grown up.



Calm down...its the MB. :p



Since I've never had to do this before, I don't know how it works but I'd like to report this personal attack. And it's probably done twice since I don't know what he's referring to by "MB".

[QUOTE]


<font color="blue">post edited due to a personal attack / offensive material</font>



I take that as a personal attack and you should be banned if you can't act like a grown up.



Calm down...its the MB. :p



Since I've never had to do this before, I don't know how it works but I'd like to report this personal attack. And it's probably done twice since I don't know what he's referring to by "MB".




Message board. Good luck with reporting it. I was called brain dead today and nothing happened to that guy.

[QUOTE]


<font color="blue">post edited due to a personal attack / offensive material</font>



I take that as a personal attack and you should be banned if you can't act like a grown up.



Calm down...its the MB. :p



Since I've never had to do this before, I don't know how it works but I'd like to report this personal attack. And it's probably done twice since I don't know what he's referring to by "MB".




Message board. Good luck with reporting it. I was called brain dead today and nothing happened to that guy.




With 6 moderators, someone should take notice. I didn't call him any names, as much as I'd like to! In fact, I'm taking back the "nice gentleman in OK" I posted earlier!

Oh BTW to report you click ther little Icon at the bottom of the post.

To those who are pro-amnesty, what if this were <font color="red">YOUR </font> kids on this bus?

[b] "The local Fox affiliate in the Twin Cities finally confirms what the local papers didn�t seem to want to mention about the horrible school bus accident that killed four children. It didn�t have to happen:

Authorities have confirmed that the the driver of the van that struck the school bus that killed 4 students on Tuesday is an illegal alien.

Officials at the Immigration and Customs Enforcement are checking to see where she came from and how long she�s been in Minnesota. FOX 9 has also learned that the name she gave to police, Alainiss Morales, is an alias.

23-year-old Alainiss N. Morales was taken into custody on suspicion of criminal vehicular operation. She was arrested by the State Patrol Thursday afternoon and is being held in Lyon County Jail. County Attorney Rick Maes told the Marshall Independent charges could come later Thursday or Friday�The van was driven by Alianiss N. Morales, 23, of Minneota. The Fox 9 Investigator found Morales pleaded guilty in Chippewa County in 2006 to driving without a valid license.





you can add liar and thief to her resume also...



MINNEAPOLIS � Federal prosecutors filed identity theft charges on Friday against the woman accused in a school bus crash that killed four students.

Olga Marina Franco del Cid, 24, of Minneota, was already charged in state court with four counts of criminal vehicular homicide.

The new charges accuse her of giving authorities a false name and Social Security number after the crash Feb. 19, when four students were killed when a van she drove crashed into their school bus near Cottonwood in southwestern Minnesota. She was charged with two counts of aggravated identity theft and two counts of false representation of a Social Security number.

Prosecutors filed the same federal charges against her live-in boyfriend, Francisco Sangabriel-Mendoza, 29, also of Minneota, who prosecutors say was the registered owner of the van. A warrant was issued for his arrest, and authorities asked anyone who knows his whereabouts to call the Immigration and Customs Enforcement toll free hot line at 1-866-347-2423.

Franco's attorney, Manuel Guerrero of St. Paul, declined comment on the new charges, saying he hadn't seen them. Franco did not immediately return a message left at the Lyon County Jail in Marshall.


Both of Franco and Sangabriel-Mendoza face maximum potential penalties of five years in prison on each false representation count and two years on each identity theft count.

Right after the crash, Franco identified herself as Alianiss Nunez-Morales. But immigration investigators found the real Nunez-Morales in Connecticut. She told them her purse and identification documents were stolen more than six months ago when she was living in Puerto Rico, according to an ICE affidavit.

The affidavit alleges Franco used Nunez-Morales' Social Security number to obtain a Minnesota identification card, an ID that is not a driver's license. Franco allegedly was not licensed to drive in Minnesota. She also allegedly gave the Social Security number at two Minnesota companies where she worked.

When ICE agents searched her home in Minneota last Friday, they found a Guatemalan birth certificate, a certified Guatemalan ID card for Franco, correspondence to and from Guatemala in the name of her parents, and numerous receipts showing money transfers to her mother in Guatemala, the U.S. Attorney's Office said in a news release.

Authorities earlier said Franco is in the United States illegally.

The complaint against Sangabriel-Mendoza alleges he used the Social Security number of a Puerto Rican man to get work at two Minnesota companies.

An ICE affidavit alleges Sangabriel-Mendoza is a Mexican citizen who's in the U.S. illegally. It says he married a U.S. citizen in 2004, but they divorced, so his petition for permanent residency was denied last September and he was given 30 days to leave the country.

During the search last Friday, ICE agents also found the Puerto Rican man's birth certificate, as well as other documents, including a Minnesota driver's license, a Mexican passport and a Mexican birth certificate in Sangabriel-Mendoza's name.

"ICE aggressively investigates those who commit identity theft to circumvent our nation's immigration laws," Claude Arnold, special agent in charge of ICE's Office of Investigations in St. Paul, said in a statement. "... Today's charges reflect ICE's commitment to investigating those who assume other people's identities to skirt the law."

16. Respect our laws!

<font color="red"> The Federal government is failing our citizens on an unprecedented level as the Executive branch refuses to adequately secure our borders and enforce our existing immigration laws. This has created an illegal immigration crisis in America and it is incumbent upon our state representatives to take action to enforce these laws.



<font color="black"> how about a new law taxing money wired across the border or set up armed forces recruiting offices at the border and sign them up for military service and let them earn their citizenship

Calm down...its the MB. :p



And what pray tell is an MB? another personal attack?
MODERATOR: Please take note!

[/QUOTE]
MB=message board...please keep your pants in a whad...do not over_react.

Take note:

Charles Schwab Suspension 1/23/2008 4/23/2008 Abuse of 'Notify Moderator' function

Hey Einstein, if she wasn't in the country it wouldn't have happened.



I have to disagree with this. I mean, I agree with you,
Tony's a smart guy, but Einstein? I suggest Newton. Actually, I was thinking Darwin, but then we'd have to go through the whole evolution debate and you know how that goes. You guys do believe in gravity, right?



Tony is Einstein compared to you Zippy...

Please do not hesitate to utilize the "Notify Moderator" button. It is there at the bottom of every post along with three other icons (print, remind, and eMail icons). The case he mentioned of "abuse of 'Notify Moderator' function" was an extreme case. You will not be punished for appropriate reporting of posts that may be offensive or contain personal attacks or in any other way do not follow the guidelines for these forums.

But please note that we can not moderate a post unless it is reported. If you do not report it, do not expect us to do much about it. It is a checks and balances system to keep any moderators from potentially overstepping their bounds.


-Chris.

A little bit a humor for this thread

<embed src="http://www.theonion.com/content/themes/common/assets/videoplayer/flvplayer.swf" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowScriptAccess="always" wmode="transparent" width="400" height="355" flashvars="file=http://www.theonion.com/content/xml/74800/video&autostart=false&image=http://www.theonion.com/content/files/images/DIEBOLD_article.jpg&bufferlength=3&embedded=true&title=Diebold%20Accidentally%20Leaks%20Results%20O f%202008%20Election%20Early"></embed>
Diebold Accidentally Leaks Results Of 2008 Election Early (http://www.theonion.com/content/video/diebold_accidentally_leaks?utm_source=embedded_vid eo)

Since I've never had to do this before, I don't know how it works but I'd like to report this personal attack. And it's probably done twice since I don't know what he's referring to by "MB".



Wow. Are you truly that out of touch with the real world?


And Dave, I'm fairly certain that citizen bus drivers have had and will continue to have accidents, some of which result in death.

Remember, her real crime was only a misdemeanor. (It's hard to comprehend that existing on the wrong side of an arbitrary line is worse than crimes that semi-regularly result in the deaths of innocents.)

Maybe so, but she wouldn't have killed those children if she was in her country...

Nevermind, can't read.

Again, that's hypothetical. She just as easily could have run a stop sign in Mexico while driving a bus.

Honestly, the accident brings up these questions:
1. Did the company/school district/whatever check her out according the law?
2. Did they make sure she was properly trained to operate a school bus?

Houston has trouble getting drivers too, and at least once a year each news channel does a story on a driver (or district) who isn't licensed to drive at all or certified to drive a bus. Judging by the color of those drivers, some are US citizens. Unless we need to fence ourselves off from Europe and Africa. I'd love to see where Michelle would want those built.



You and Lyle must have the same Kool-Aid recipe...Your questions are inane. Maybe the USA needs to adopt English as the official language, and make its citizens pass a reading comprehension exam to keep their citizenship. Maybe then you would understand that she was not the bus driver in the accident. She was driving a van that struck the school bus.

My apologies about those questions, then. That post will be deleted. You're absolutely right, I didn't read it close enough, although I did wonder about her being a bus driver at such a young age--which led to my sidebar about Houston and the lack of drivers. Must be the overused bold type...

Still, the fact that she could have run a stop sign in Mexico and killed 4 children is just as likely as her running the stop sign in the US with the same result. In either place it is a tragedy, unless you're such a person that you don't really care about the overall world and unnecessary loss of life.

You're right, it's a tragedy regardless of the location, and I care about all people, but it wouldn't have happened if she was in her country of citizenship.

And no, Lyle and I both tend to realize that there is this place called reality. And in this place, things aren't black and white and often times the grays are caused by those supposedly enforcing the black and white because it benefits them and others (including every one of us) positively. Could it be better and without being binary? Sure, but there is no way without compromise.

Folks like Michelle and you, apparently can't grasp that.

Nice try...

Hey Einstein, if she wasn't in the country it wouldn't have happened.



I have to disagree with this. I mean, I agree with you,
Tony's a smart guy, but Einstein? I suggest Newton. Actually, I was thinking Darwin, but then we'd have to go through the whole evolution debate and you know how that goes. You guys do believe in gravity, right?



Tony is Einstein compared to you Zippy...



LOL Zippy was one funny dude! The epitome of Americanism, he does whatever is hip and popular. For example, if it was easy, hip and popular to bash illegal immigrants for America's problems, Zippy would be doing it.

Actually, Zippy wasn't even that sharp, he would have been out cleaning his handgun or riding on his ATV.

Take note WinniFrisbeeGirl, In the last couple of years, CENT has talked about scientists while cleaning his Glock (surprisingly enough, my profile says I trained as a scientist), and called me many names, and I've yet needed to run to the MB Moderator to get them to take care of me.

What it means to be American; it's the belief that there are better ways to make the world a better place than by being threatening and hating the poor (not that I'm saying anyone here is doing either of those things).

Hey Einstein, if she wasn't in the country it wouldn't have happened.



I have to disagree with this. I mean, I agree with you,
Tony's a smart guy, but Einstein? I suggest Newton. Actually, I was thinking Darwin, but then we'd have to go through the whole evolution debate and you know how that goes. You guys do believe in gravity, right?



Tony is Einstein compared to you Zippy...



What it means to be American; it's the belief that there are better ways to make the world a better place than by being threatening and hating the poor (not that I'm saying anyone here is doing either of those things).



Too bad you advocate illegal activities, there goes your credibility...

YAWN!

And where have I posted that? Tisk-tisk, just because I can recognize that what we're doing isn't working doesn't mean I advocate for illegal behavior.

BTW - on the whole van bus thing, a tragedy yes - I wonder how many civilians have died in Iraq, an illegal incursion by international laws. Are we saying that if Americans do it it's O.K. but if Mexicans/South Americans do it it isn't?

BTW - on the whole van bus thing, a tragedy yes - I wonder how many civilians have died in Iraq, an illegal incursion by international laws. Are we saying that if Americans do it it's O.K. but if Mexicans/South Americans do it it isn't?



I'm pretty sure our troops are held accountable for their actions, and punished if a criminal act was committed. If you don't want to stand behind our troops, please feel free to stand in front of them...

This thread, as well as a couple others, are so full of self-centered piety, intolerance, and hatred for others that it saddens me to think that this may be what our society is becoming. The intolerance and hatred here is appalling.
The list of 10 + 5 + 1 "...more strictly enforced laws..." that a couple of you listed, if not meant to be completely humorous, is built upon prejudices and near-sightedness.

On the example of the school bus being hit by a driver that was not licensed nor documented and using an alias. That driver was wrong, but no one, NO ONE, can say without a doubt that it would not have happened had she not been in this country. All they can say is that it would not have happened with her had she not been in this country. She may have hit a bus wherever she was, and someone else may have hit that bus.

Why not learn another language ?
Why not learn another culture ?
Why not broaden your experiences and your knowledge and your tolerance of yourself and others?
Why not get to know people before you completely discredit them and break them down with generalities?

I am not saying that it is okay to be an illegal immigrant. I am not saying we should have completely open borders. I am saying we should re-examine the policies regarding immigration. I say we should re-examine wasting resources on building walls. I say we should re-examine our own prejudices and own realistic expectations on what really is needed in this country. I say we should examine carefully what we want in the next election and the election after that and all the time in between and inform ourselves as best we can on all issues -- using an open mind -- then inform our elected officials -- in federal government, local government, and on the board of the PDGA -- what we want from them. If what you have stated here is truly what you want, even after educating yourself, so be it. I, and those that are like-minded, will have to be more vigilant in vocalizing our beliefs to those in power.

BTW - on the whole van bus thing, a tragedy yes - I wonder how many civilians have died in Iraq, an illegal incursion by international laws. Are we saying that if Americans do it it's O.K. but if Mexicans/South Americans do it it isn't?



I'm pretty sure our troops are held accountable for their actions, and punished if a criminal act was committed. If you don't want to stand behind our troops, please feel free to stand in front of them...



Ahhhh, ya still didn't answer the question Dave Vincent. Is it better when we illegally invade a country or when illegal immigrants from Mexico invade ours?

BTW - most of the deaths are via collateral damage and through the disruption of the legal systems that were present before the war. And the real culprits in directed mistreatment of civilians are our military leaders. Yes, I'll stand in front of Bush and Cheney, not to mention the generals and other military leaders who've let this happen to our troops without standing up and saying, "this is wrong." Yep, they're so brave that they wait till they've retired to speak out against this war.

Of course that's still better than putting on a flight suit and flying out to a carrier to brag about yourself.

If you don't want to stand behind our troops, please feel free to stand in front of them...

BTW - just to make sure we're clear, you may think it's our troops doing when they are involved in an illegal war but I do not. Our troops are doing their jobs, they were sent into this war by our leaders, and it was the American public that allowed our leaders to do this. You're right in one sense, we should be the ones between the troops and what is happening to them... we let it happen.

Did you vote?

Did you vote?



That's three accounts you have Dave Vincent. Jeez, how many do you have. Do you measure your success in life by the number of accounts you have on the PDGA MB? :D

Yes I vote. What's your point? Regardless of who's in power, if the public had stood against this from the start it wouldn't have happened. You can see, now that the majority of the public is against it, the direction we are going.

BTW if you want to talk credibility, hiding behind multiple accounts to try and add impact to your view is hardly the way to do it Dave Vincent.

How is having multiple accounts that are OBVIOUSLY me detrimental to my credibility?

How is having multiple accounts that are OBVIOUSLY me detrimental to my credibility?



Other than you bounce around them trying to make it look like several people support the same position; and by the way, for the casual observer, if you don't look, which I did, it isn't obvious that they're all you? Why do it, unless you're Narcissistic? Not to mention that it's against PDGA policy?

BTW - the fact that you've made some effort to do this, given your banning, might also be a comment on your credibility. I'd think, as fervent as you appear to be, that you'd spend a little more time politicking where it might be effective. Perhaps volunteering for the local GOP candidate or some such. That seems much more important than breaking into the PDGA MB.

I don't use my accounts for the purposes you mentioned, not very scientific of you state something as fact before being able to prove it. Where is it against PDGA policy? My PDGA number is on every account, pretty obvious, even to a casual observer.

I don't use my accounts for the purposes you mentioned, not very scientific of you state something as fact before being able to prove it. Where is it against PDGA policy? My PDGA number is on every account, pretty obvious, even to a casual observer.



Wow! What an effective reply. Pretend like the written MB policy doesn't exist. Now that's credibility! Is this the same logic you apply to all your positions?

BTW - the fact that you've made some effort to do this, given your banning, might also be a comment on your credibility. That seems much more important than breaking into the PDGA MB.



Where does it say I'm banned? How am I breaking into the MB? I am a current paid member, please do not personally attack me, it is against the rules.

Ahhhh, you're right, I went with what was posted, you're only on Probation.... My apologies.

I don't use my accounts for the purposes you mentioned, not very scientific of you state something as fact before being able to prove it. Where is it against PDGA policy? My PDGA number is on every account, pretty obvious, even to a casual observer.





Wow! What an effective reply. Pretend like the written MB policy doesn't exist. Now that's credibility! Is this the same logic you apply to all your positions?



Provide a link to your source, its not credible to cite rules if you can't show them in writing...

Apparently you're right, my mistake, I can find no source that says you can't have multiple accounts, just not anonymous accounts. Sorry, CENT, or was it DARK HORSE, or COPPER, which one are you now?

No problem, just glad I could show that you don't know as much as you think you do...

Appaerantly you can't have multiple users for one account but you can have multiple accounts for one user.

No problem, just glad I could show that you don't know as much as you think you do...



LOL, It'd be great if everyone would do it, as with most people, I know less than the average person does...

BTW - you never did tell us why you have multiple persona's; I'm sure it's all for a good reason, does each one donate to a worthy cause?

Yeah, it all goes here... (https://secure.responseenterprises.com/mmfence/?a=571)

Yeah, it all goes here... (https://secure.responseenterprises.com/mmfence/?a=571)



Yes, but how much from each persona? I'm sure the minutemen appreciate your generous donations, but you want to make sure that you, CENT, DH, COPPER... whichever, gets full credit! I mean what if they gave credit to TAC by accident? No one would know about your support.

I don't give for recognition...You might, but I don't.

<font color="blue">post edited due to a personal attack / offensive material</font>



So that's all that happens? The post gets deleted? Does this mean I'm now free to personally attack him back and suffer NO consequences?

http://www.americanthinker.com/printpage...memo_dispr.html (http://www.americanthinker.com/printpage/?url=http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2008/03/canadian_diplomatic_memo_dispr.html)

I know Obama isn't stupid, but inexperience can sure look like stupidity at times!

<font color="blue">post edited due to a personal attack / offensive material</font>



So that's all that happens? The post gets deleted? Does this mean I'm now free to personally attack him back and suffer NO consequences?



If it would make you feel better then go right ahead. :D

<font color="blue">post edited due to a personal attack / offensive material</font>



So that's all that happens? The post gets deleted? Does this mean I'm now free to personally attack him back and suffer NO consequences?



If it would make you feel better then go right ahead. :D



Nah, you're not worth it! Now get back to lining your pockets with the blood sweat and tears of your ILLEGAL aliens...and sleep well tonight too, ya hear?

Actually Michelle if you complained and Jake's post was deleted by the monitor, he'll probably show up on probation the next time they update the list. It's probably not equal to the public "flogging" some of us were hoping for though. :( :D

I didn't see what he posted so if it hurt your feelings enough to report him then so be it but I remember a time when you seemed to have a tougher skin and could take as much as you could dish out.....Especially on the TDSA thread when the Cali vs Okie bashing was going on. ;)

CA &lt; OK

<font color="blue">post edited due to a personal attack / offensive material</font>



So that's all that happens? The post gets deleted? Does this mean I'm now free to personally attack him back and suffer NO consequences?



If it would make you feel better then go right ahead. :D



Nah, you're not worth it! Now get back to lining your pockets with the blood sweat and tears of your ILLEGAL aliens...and sleep well tonight too, ya hear?



Thanks, nice to know that I finally have your permission. ;)

<font color="blue">post edited due to a personal attack / offensive material</font>



So that's all that happens? The post gets deleted? Does this mean I'm now free to personally attack him back and suffer NO consequences?



If it would make you feel better then go right ahead. :D



Nah, you're not worth it! Now get back to lining your pockets with the blood sweat and tears of your ILLEGAL aliens...and sleep well tonight too, ya hear?




None of the current candidates are going to do anything about our illegal problem. They are all in bed with Mexico.

&gt;One day a florist goes to a barber for a haircut. After the cut he asked
&gt;about his bill and the barber replies, 'I cannot accept money from you.
&gt;I'm doing community service this week.' The florist was pleased and left the
&gt;shop. When the barber goes to open his shop the next morning there is a
&gt;'thank you' card and a dozen roses waiting for him at his door. Later, a
&gt;
&gt;cop comes in for a haircut, and when he tries to pay his bill, the barber
&gt;again replies, 'I cannot accept money from you. I'm doing community service
&gt;this week.' The cop is happy and leaves the shop. The next morning when the
&gt;barber goes to open up there is a 'thank you' card and a dozen donuts
&gt;waiting for him at his door. Later that day, a college professor comes in
&gt;for a haircut, and when he tries to pay his bill, the barber again replies,
&gt;'I cannot accept money from you. I'm doing community service this week.'
&gt;
&gt;The professor is very happy and leaves the shop. The next morning when the
&gt;barber opens his shop, there is a 'thank you' card and a dozen different
&gt;books, such as 'How to Improve Your Business' and 'Becoming More Successful.
&gt;'Then, a Congressman comes in for a haircut, and when he goes to pay his
&gt;bill the barber again replies, 'I cannot accept money from you. I'm doing
&gt;community service this week.' The Congressman is very happy and leaves the
&gt;shop. The next morning when the barber goes to open up, there are a dozen
&gt;Congressmen lined up waiting for a free haircut. And that, my friends,
&gt;illustrates the fundamental difference between the citizens of our country
&gt;and the members of our Congress.--Vote carefully this year.

Did you know that 47 countries have re-established their embassies in Iraq ?



Did you know that the Iraqi government currently employs 1.2 million Iraqi people?



Did you know that 3100 schools have been renovated,
364 schools are under rehabilitation,
263 new schools are now under construction and 38 new schools have been completed in Iraq ?



Did you know that Iraq 's higher educational structure consists of 20 Universities,
46 Institutes or colleges and 4 research centers, all currently operating?



Did you know that 25 Iraq students departed for the United States in January 2005 for the re-established Fulbright program?



Did you know that the Iraqi Navy is operational? They have 5 -100-foot patrol craft, 34 smaller vessels and a naval infantry regiment.



Did you know that Iraq 's Air Force consists of three operational squadrons, which includes 9 reconnaissance and 3 US C-130 transport aircraft
(under Iraqi operational control) which operate day and night, and will soon add
16 UH-1 helicopters and 4 Bell Jet Rangers?



Did you know that Iraq has a counter-terrorist unit and a Commando Battalion?



Did you know that the Iraqi Police Service has over 55,000 fully trained and equipped police officers?



Did you know that there are 5 Police Academies in Iraq that produce over 3500 new officers every 8 weeks?



Did you know there are more than 1100 building projects going on in Iraq ? They include 364 schools, 67 public clinics,
15 hospitals, 83 railroad stations,
22 oil facilities, 93 water facilities and 69 electrical facilities.



Did you know that 96% of Iraqi children under the age of 5 have receive d the first 2 series of polio v accinations?



Did you know that 4.3 million Iraqi children were enrolled in primary school by mid October?



Did you know that there are 1,192,000 cell phone subscribers in Iraq and phone use has gone up 158%?



Did you know that Iraq has an independent media that consists of 75 radio stations, 180 newspapers and 10 television stations?



Did you know that the Baghdad Stock Exchange opened in June of 200 4?



Did you know that 2 candidates in the Iraqi presidential election had a televised debate recently?



OF COURSE WE DIDN'T KNOW!



WHY DIDN'T WE KNOW?



BECAUSE...




OUR MEDIA WOULDN'T TELL US!



Instead of reflecting our love for our country, we get photos of flag burning incidents at Abu Ghraib and people throwing snowballs at the presidential motorcades.



Tragically, the lack of accentuating the positive in Iraq serves two purposes:



It is intended to undermine the world's perception of the United States thus minimizing consequent support, and it is intended to discourage American citizens .



---- Above facts are verifiable on the Department of Defense web site.



......Pass it on!



http://www.defense.gov/

The Democrats have a new issue... (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080310/ap_on_re_us/spitzer_prostitution)

Ah Gocha, not to discredit that sourse, but it was from the Govenment that told us there were WMD's.

The Myth of the Surge (http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/18722376/the_myth_of_the_surge)

Now as with any article, it is slanted, but it does give you an insite into what is going on in Iraq.

Do you watch John Daily? Did you see the great piece they did on when Bush went to Iraq vs. the President of Iran? Very funny. Bush went in at night with full security and secrecy, and the President of Iran was red carpeted and met with open arms and went to the most dangerous neighborhoods in Baghdad and was met warmly...

In actuality, I completely agree with Gotcha. It sounds great there and there's all this awesome progress. Given that, isn't it about time we brought our troops and our money home?

Ah Gocha, not to discredit that sourse, but it was from the Govenment that told us there were WMD's.



Exactly which government would that be, Pizza? Everyone knew Saddam had WMD's.....long before "W" came along. It is a well known fact Saddam used such weapons in the Iraq/Iran war as well as against his own countrymen (Kurdish rebels).

Us not finding the WMD's after Saddam had several months to hide/destroy/move said stockpiles? Completely different story and discussion....

For those of us who spent time in the military, believe in our military
and support the men and women of our military, read on............. ~
John Glenn (DEMOCRAT) said this ----- It should make you think a little:




There were 39 combat related killings in Iraq in January.
In the fair city of Detroit there were 35 murders in the
month of January. That's just one American city,
about as deadly as the entire war-torn country of Iraq.




When some claim that President Bush shouldn't
have started this war, state the following:




FDR (DEMOCRAT) led us into World War II.

Germany never attacked us ; Japan did.
From 1941-1945, 450,000 lives were lost .
an average of 112,500 per year.



Truman (DEMOCRAT) finished that war and started one in Korea
North Korea never attacked us
From 1950-1953, 55,000 lives were lost ..
an average of 18,334 per year.


John F. Kennedy (DEMOCRAT) started the Vietnam conflict in 1962.
Vietnam never attacked us.


Johnson (DEMOCRAT) turned Vietnam into a quagmire.
From 1965-1975, 58,000 lives were lost .
an average of 5,800 per year.




Clinton (DEMOCRAT) went to war in Bosnia without UN or French consent.
Bosnia never attacked us.
He was offered Osama bin Laden's head on a platter three
times by Sudan and did nothing. Osama has attacked us on
multiple occasions.

In the years since terrorists attacked us , President Bush
has liberated two countries, crushed the Taliban, crippled
al-Qaida, put nuclear inspectors in Libya , Iran , and, North Korea
without firing a shot, and captured a terrorist who slaughtered 300,000
of his own people. And the Democrats are complaining about how long the
war is taking.

But Wait, There's more!






It took less time to take Iraq than it took Janet Reno (DEMOCRAT)
to take the Branch Davidian compound.
That was a 51-day operation..




We've been looking for evidence for chemical weapons
in Iraq for less time than it took Hillary Clinton (DEMOCRAT) to find
the Rose Law Firm billing records.






It took less time for the 3rd Infantry Division and the
Marines to destroy the Medina Republican Guard
than it took Ted Kennedy to call the police after his
Oldsmobile sank at Chappaquiddick.

It took less time to take Iraq than it took
to count the votes in Florida !!!

Our Commander-In-Chief is doing a GREAT JOB !
The Military morale is high!

The biased media hopes we are too ignorant
to realize the facts

But Wait

There's more!


JOHN GLENN (on the Senate floor)

Some people still don't understand why military personnel
do what they do for a living. This exchange between
Senators John Glenn and Senator Howard Metzenbaum
is worth reading. Not only is it a pretty impressive
impromptu speech, but it's also a good example of one
man's explanation of why men and women in the armed
services do what they do for a living.






This IS a typical, though sad, example of what
some who have never served think of the military.

Senator Metzenbaum (speaking to Senator Glenn):
'How can you run for Senate when you've never held a real job?'

Senator Glenn (D-Ohio):
'I served 23 years in the United States Marine Corps.
I served through two wars. I flew 149 missions.
My plane was hit by anti-aircraft fire on 12 different
occasions. I was in the space program. It wasn't my
checkbook, Howard; it was my life on the line. It was
not a nine-to-five job, where I took time off to take the
daily cash receipts to the bank.'

'I ask you to go with me .. . as I went the other day...
to a veteran's hospital and look those men .
with their mangled bodies . in the eye, and tell THEM
they didn't hold a job!




You go with me to the Space Program at NASA
and go, as I have gone, to the widows and Orphans
of Ed White, Gus Grissom and Roger Chaffee...
and you look those kids in the eye and tell them
that their DAD'S didn't hold a job.



You go with me on Memorial Day and you stand in
Arlington National Cemetery , where I have more friends
buried than I'd like to remember, and you watch
those waving flags.
You stand there, and you think about this nation,
and you have the gall to tell ME that those people didn't have a job?

What about Metzenbaum?'

For those who don't remember
During W.W.II, Howard Metzenbaum was an attorney
representing the Communist Party in the USA

Now he's a Senator!

If you can read this, thank a teacher.
If you are reading it in English thank a Veteran.

No offense, but read Snopes. It will alert you to urban legends before you pass them on as fact.

gotcha, that is awesome, I especially like the last part. I was in the Army once and I have been to ANC, it is truly a moving experience that I wish all Americans could experience. here in St. Louis they have a national cemetary, right across the street from my home course, Jefferson Barracks. You litterally cannot see the end of the rows of white markers, and it pails in comparison to Arlington National. Most people don't have the foggiest clue what it has taken to make America what it is, or even realize what they have by being here. A lot of people simply focus on what is what is wrong with it, never understanding that because of it's greatness, they have the right to rag on it openly...

Back on topic, I don't like any of the choices we have. But I'd rather have a man in the office who has respect for our military rather than contempt for it. So I will either vote McCain or nobody, even though I'll have to hold my nose doing it...

The Democrats have a new issue... (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080310/ap_on_re_us/spitzer_prostitution)



Looks like Hillary will have a job waiting for her as soon as Spitzer uses the system enough to avoid jail time, then resign... :eek:

Hey,

did you guys hear about the KBR thing, you know, where they fed our troops contaminated water in Iraq? Yep, the army will give us all these stats on what a wonder-job they're doing in Iraq, but they won't tell us how many of our troops KBR poisoned. On the bright side though, the Bush Administration did pass a law making it impossible for our troops to sue contractors so we don't have to worry about our tax dollars being wasted.

Oh by the way, KBR employees told them the water was contaminated and were, ignored. KBR, keeping our troops... safe!

No offense, but read Snopes. It will alert you to urban legends before you pass them on as fact.



Really, you mean someone made that story up? No, I mean, I'm sure that one Senator told another to get a real job.... /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

actually, Lyle, that is the only part that can be attributed to Sen Glenn, but I believe that was back a few decades.
Then, in 2004, the Iraq war stuff was added to the e-mail circulaton and attributed to Sen. Glenn, but not ever verified nor ever actually said by the Senator.

I went to the Memorial this last week and was in a McDonalds in Fountain Hills for breakfast one morning. On the counter, I saw 2 signs. One read something to the effect that this establishment uses E-Verify to verify all social security numbers given to the manager by its potential employees and the manager uses E-Verify to check them out. Having been a victim of identity theft and having my SSN stolen, I was very happy to read this sign!

The 2nd sign was an American flag with shadows of people in front of it and that sign read something to the effect of "Don't let others take your job as an American citizen." I was tickled pink to see these 2 signs. I had an hour or so to kill and I asked to speak to the manager and we had a nice lengthy conversation about ILLEGAL immigration vs. LEGAL immigration. It was only 6:30 AM and hardly any customers were in the store.

Bottom line, I basically thanked this guy for keeping an eye out for the citizens of Fountain Hills and surrounding businesses and for displaying these 2 signs. It was a GREAT start to my day!

Today I get an email with the following and am very happy to read this as well!

<font color="red"> The principle behind Attrition Through Enforcement is that living illegally in the United States will become more difficult and less satisfying over time when the government � at ALL LEVELS � enforces all of the laws already on the books. It is also imperative that the government with the full cooperation of the private sector, implements certain workplace enforcement measures. The goal is to make it extremely difficult for unauthorized persons to live and work in the United States. There is no need for taxpayers to watch the government spend billions of their dollars to round up and deport illegal aliensIllegal-Immigration-Ruling Dec-07 ; they will buy their own bus or plane tickets back home if they can no longer earn a living here.

We know Attrition Through Enforcement works because, in states that have passed tough new laws to penalize employers of and deny public benefits to illegal aliens, the illegal aliens began to move out of those states, often before the new laws are even implemented. As it currently stands, almost 200,000 illegal aliens self-deport from the United States every year, but imagine how many more would leave if our government refused to award illegal aliens another amnesty, mandated all employers to verify a person�s eligibility to work here, cracked down on identity fraud and enabled local police to easily transfer illegal aliens in their custody to Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) officials.

Among many detailed border security provisions stressing more agents and better technology at minimal operating costs, the SAVE Act would:

increase border patrol agents by 8,000, utilize new technology and fencing to secure the border;
expand specialized enforcement programs, such as the "Tunnel Task Force";
and, address the "jobs magnet" by strengthening The Employment Verification Program (E-Verify) to close security gaps, address loopholes, and make it mandatory for employers.
The E-Verify program provides employers with an inexpensive, quick, and accurate way to verify employee eligibility. E-Verify has already achieved tremendous success, but is currently voluntary and offers little incentive for employers to participate. This puts users at an economic disadvantage when it is only being used by a fraction of U.S. employers and competitors continue to hire illegal aliens.

Last, but not least, the SAVE Act would address interior enforcement by employing more ICE agents, training additional state and local law enforcement personnel, and expediting the removal of illegal aliens by expanding detention capacity and increasing the number of Federal District Court Judges. Furthermore, this legislation would begin a targeted media campaign to inform illegal aliens of new laws and penalties, while also informing employers of penalties for hiring illegal immigrants.

Send a fax to your Member of Congress to cosponsor this legislation, or thank your Member who is already a cosponsor in order to help expedite the Committee process so we can have true immigration reform in the 110th Congress.



Attrition Through Enforcement Is the True Middle-ground Solution

President Bush and the rest of the open borders crowd constantly tell the American people that there are only two solutions to our nation's illegal alien crisis � give illegal aliens amnesty or round them up and deport them. This is a diversionary tactic to draw public attention away from the most effective and efficient solution � Attrition Through Enforcement.

The principle behind Attrition Through Enforcement is that living illegally in the United States will become more difficult and less satisfying over time when the government � at ALL LEVELS � enforces all of the laws already on the books. It is also imperative that the government with the full cooperation of the private sector, implements certain workplace enforcement measures. The goal is to make it extremely difficult for unauthorized persons to live and work in the United States. There is no need for taxpayers to watch the government spend billions of their dollars to round up and deport illegal aliens; they will buy their own bus or plane tickets back home if they can no longer earn a living here.

We know Attrition Through Enforcement will work because, until recently, it has been shown to work even with little or no enforcement. As it currently stands, almost 200,000 illegal aliens self-deport from the United States every year, but imagine how many more would leave if our government refused to award illegal aliens another amnesty, mandated all employers to verify a person�s eligibility to work here, cracked down on identity fraud, and enabled local police to easily transfer illegal aliens in their custody to the feds.

People Who Left the Ranks of Illegal Aliens in the Most Recent Year of Official Record*
183,000 Self-Deported
152,000 Amnestied (allowed to adjust to legal status within U.S.)
63,000 Removed by Federal Authorities
27,000 Died
456,000 Total
* Source: Estimates of the Unauthorized Immigrant Population Residing in the United States: 1990 to 2000 ; Office of Policy and Planning, U.S. Immigration and Naturalization Service (1999)

Attrition Through Enforcement will not reverse the pull of the jobs magnet overnight. It may take years for employers to understand the government is serious about enforcement of our nation's immigration laws. As a result of some businesses that neglect to assist the government in weeding out illegal aliens from the workforce, it also may take years for illegal aliens to understand that American employers are less and less willing to hire them. A cascading effect will occur, however, when the Federal government does its job and more communities take a stand. Communities across the nation that have taken action to crack down on illegal immigration often see illegal aliens leave when news about new laws or workplace raids spreads (See more examples). When the illegal aliens move to another location and that community also cracks down, they will become discouraged and eventually self-deport.

It took 20 years to create an illegal population of more than 12 million, and it may take at least ten years to substantially reduce that number, but the increasing number of self-deportations each year will: (1) steadily improve the quality of life and lessen the cost of government for Americans; (2) make jobs available for unemployed and underemployed legal residents; and (3) discourage further illegal migration from other countries.

According to a recent Zogby poll, when given the choice between mass deportations, mass amnesty, and Attrition Through Enforcement, the majority of Americans choose Attrition Through Enforcement. Most polls reported in the mainstream media neglect to include Attrition Through Enforcement as a viable alternative to the two mainstay survey choices (i.e., mass deportations and mass amnesty). As such, it�s easy to see why their results are skewed.

Recent Raids Work, Open Up Jobs for Americans


Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) agents conducted a series of raids on Swift and Company meat packing plants in six states and arrested almost 1,300 illegal aliens towards the end of 2006, ane more recently in July 2007. We learned three very important things from these raids:

Americans take the jobs illegal aliens leave behind : The day after the raids took place, the media reported that plenty of legal workers lined up to apply for the jobs left vacant by the illegal aliens who fled or were arrested.
Identity fraud and illegal immigration are connected : Hundreds of the illegal aliens who were arrested are suspected of using the name and SSN of an American citizen. You can fight illegal immigration by fighting identity fraud.
Attrition Through enforcement works: Over 400 illegal aliens skipped town after Swift dropped hints about ICE's suspicions. Once the message gets out that there aren�t any jobs for illegal aliens, they leave.
These raids are a good start, but raids alone will not solve the illegal immigration crisis. Constant pressure must be placed on illegal aliens and their employers by ICE and local governments as part of an Attrition Through Enforcement strategy.
Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff has said his agency is prepared to launch similar raids on other plants � even those owned by companies that, like Swift, have attested to comply with the voluntary Basic Pilot program to screen employees � and to take additional actions to track down illegal aliens who are guilty of identity theft. NumbersUSA encourages you to help make this happen.

Unfortunately, most of the reaction to the raids in the media is still being reported from the standpoints of immigration lawyers, pro-amnesty organizations and religious leaders who say it is inhumane to arrest people just because they have broken immigration laws and stolen identities in order to get a job (click here to see an example). It is extremely important that Congress continue to hear that public sentiment is overwhelmingly on the side of enforcement rather than amnesty and leniency.
</font>

Bottom line is, there are a few of you (thank goodness not many) who take advantage of undocumented workers to line your pockets with the sweat from their labor. You are also taking away the jobs from your fellow American citizens and those who came here legally. I am happy to see our government is finally opening its eyes and listening to the MAJORITY of us who do not want or need ILLEGAL immigrants in this country. I am happy and proud to stand up and say enough is enough and this must stop and I do everything I can to help my state and my country to give back the jobs illegals have taken from my fellow brothers and sisters.

This manager in McDonalds in Fountain Hills (and millions of other businesses across this great nation of ours) have found a way to run their business legally! To them I stand up and applaud you that you take the extra time needed to find legal immigrants and fellow citizens to run your business and you can be proud.

To those of you who still take advantage of the labor of these people, SHAME ON YOU!!

Ah Gocha, not to discredit that sourse, but it was from the Govenment that told us there were WMD's.



Exactly which government would that be, Pizza? Everyone knew Saddam had WMD's.....long before "W" came along. It is a well known fact Saddam used such weapons in the Iraq/Iran war as well as against his own countrymen (Kurdish rebels). <font color="red"> Yes, weapons sold to Saddam by America and then used on his own people. The UN inspectors were telling us that nearly all WMD's were destroyed and they were not finding any. It was former Iraqi's who were telling us there were WMD's. The same source that told us there were WMD's stole money we gave them to start up the new Iraqi government. He was tried and convicted in Iraq. </font>

Us not finding the WMD's after Saddam had several months to hide/destroy/move said stockpiles? Completely different story and discussion....



One of the things we questioned Iraqi Army Generals and captured troops was ''where are the xxxx''.

They would all answer the same thing. ''we don't have any, but some of the other groups do''

It became apparent after we took over than even the Iraqi's thought they had WMD's. However they didn't. Saddam admitted he didn't have them before he was killed. He said he let the world believe it so Iran would believe it and not invade.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=48827
http://www.nysun.com/article/24480

Gotcha, read this. This is the speech Ron Paul gave on the house floor BEFORE the vote to give Bush authority to invade Iraq.


Ron Paul in the US House of Representatives, October 8, 2002

Mr. Speaker, I rise in opposition to this resolution, which regardless of what many have tried to claim will lead us into war with Iraq. This resolution is not a declaration of war, however, and that is an important point: this resolution transfers the Constitutionally-mandated Congressional authority to declare wars to the executive branch. This resolution tells the president that he alone has the authority to determine when, where, why, and how war will be declared. It merely asks the president to pay us a courtesy call a couple of days after the bombing starts to let us know what is going on. This is exactly what our Founding Fathers cautioned against when crafting our form of government: most had just left behind a monarchy where the power to declare war rested in one individual. It is this they most wished to avoid.

As James Madison wrote in 1798, "The Constitution supposes what the history of all governments demonstrates, that the executive is the branch of power most interested in war, and most prone to it. It has, accordingly, with studied care, vested the question of war in the legislature."

Some � even some in this body � have claimed that this Constitutional requirement is an anachronism, and that those who insist on following the founding legal document of this country are just being frivolous. I could not disagree more.

Mr. Speaker, for the more than one dozen years I have spent as a federal legislator I have taken a particular interest in foreign affairs and especially the politics of the Middle East. From my seat on the international relations committee I have had the opportunity to review dozens of documents and to sit through numerous hearings and mark-up sessions regarding the issues of both Iraq and international terrorism.

Back in 1997 and 1998 I publicly spoke out against the actions of the Clinton Administration, which I believed was moving us once again toward war with Iraq. I believe the genesis of our current policy was unfortunately being set at that time. Indeed, many of the same voices who then demanded that the Clinton Administration attack Iraq are now demanding that the Bush Administration attack Iraq. It is unfortunate that these individuals are using the tragedy of September 11, 2001 as cover to force their long-standing desire to see an American invasion of Iraq. Despite all of the information to which I have access, I remain very skeptical that the nation of Iraq poses a serious and immanent terrorist threat to the United States. If I were convinced of such a threat I would support going to war, as I did when I supported President Bush by voting to give him both the authority and the necessary funding to fight the war on terror.

Mr. Speaker, consider some of the following claims presented by supporters of this resolution, and contrast them with the following facts:

Claim: Iraq has consistently demonstrated its willingness to use force against the US through its firing on our planes patrolling the UN-established "no-fly zones."

Reality: The "no-fly zones" were never authorized by the United Nations, nor was their 12 year patrol by American and British fighter planes sanctioned by the United Nations. Under UN Security Council Resolution 688 (April, 1991), Iraq's repression of the Kurds and Shi'ites was condemned, but there was no authorization for "no-fly zones," much less airstrikes. The resolution only calls for member states to "contribute to humanitarian relief" in the Kurd and Shi'ite areas. Yet the US and British have been bombing Iraq in the "no-fly zones" for 12 years. While one can only condemn any country firing on our pilots, isn't the real argument whether we should continue to bomb Iraq relentlessly? Just since 1998, some 40,000 sorties have been flown over Iraq.

Claim: Iraq is an international sponsor of terrorism.

Reality: According to the latest edition of the State Department's Patterns of Global Terrorism, Iraq sponsors several minor Palestinian groups, the Mujahedin-e-Khalq (MEK), and the Kurdistan Workers' Party (PKK). None of these carries out attacks against the United States. As a matter of fact, the MEK (an Iranian organization located in Iraq) has enjoyed broad Congressional support over the years. According to last year's Patterns of Global Terrorism, Iraq has not been involved in terrorist activity against the West since 1993 � the alleged attempt against former President Bush.

Claim: Iraq tried to assassinate President Bush in 1993.

Reality: It is far from certain that Iraq was behind the attack. News reports at the time were skeptical about Kuwaiti assertions that the attack was planned by Iraq against former President Bush. Following is an interesting quote from Seymore Hersh's article from Nov. 1993:

Three years ago, during Iraq's six-month occupation of Kuwait, there had been an outcry when a teen-age Kuwaiti girl testified eloquently and effectively before Congress about Iraqi atrocities involving newborn infants. The girl turned out to be the daughter of the Kuwaiti Ambassador to Washington, Sheikh Saud Nasir al-Sabah, and her account of Iraqi soldiers flinging babies out of incubators was challenged as exaggerated both by journalists and by human-rights groups. (Sheikh Saud was subsequently named Minister of Information in Kuwait, and he was the government official in charge of briefing the international press on the alleged assassination attempt against George Bush.) In a second incident, in August of 1991, Kuwait provoked a special session of the United Nations Security Council by claiming that twelve Iraqi vessels, including a speedboat, had been involved in an attempt to assault Bubiyan Island, long-disputed territory that was then under Kuwaiti control. The Security Council eventually concluded that, while the Iraqis had been provocative, there had been no Iraqi military raid, and that the Kuwaiti government knew there hadn't. What did take place was nothing more than a smuggler-versus-smuggler dispute over war booty in a nearby demilitarized zone that had emerged, after the Gulf War, as an illegal marketplace for alcohol, ammunition, and livestock.

This establishes that on several occasions Kuwait has lied about the threat from Iraq. Hersh goes on to point out in the article numerous other times the Kuwaitis lied to the US and the UN about Iraq. Here is another good quote from Hersh:

The President was not alone in his caution. Janet Reno, the Attorney General, also had her doubts. "The A.G. remains skeptical of certain aspects of the case," a senior Justice Department official told me in late July, a month after the bombs were dropped on Baghdad...Two weeks later, what amounted to open warfare broke out among various factions in the government on the issue of who had done what in Kuwait. Someone gave a Boston Globe reporter access to a classified C.I.A. study that was highly skeptical of the Kuwaiti claims of an Iraqi assassination attempt. The study, prepared by the C.I.A.'s Counter Terrorism Center, suggested that Kuwait might have "cooked the books" on the alleged plot in an effort to play up the "continuing Iraqi threat" to Western interests in the Persian Gulf. Neither the Times nor the Post made any significant mention of the Globe dispatch, which had been written by a Washington correspondent named Paul Quinn-Judge, although the story cited specific paragraphs from the C.I.A. assessment. The two major American newspapers had been driven by their sources to the other side of the debate.

At the very least, the case against Iraq for the alleged bomb threat is not conclusive.

Claim: Saddam Hussein will use weapons of mass destruction against us � he has already used them against his own people (the Kurds in 1988 in the village of Halabja).

Reality: It is far from certain that Iraq used chemical weapons against the Kurds. It may be accepted as conventional wisdom in these times, but back when it was first claimed there was great skepticism. The evidence is far from conclusive. A 1990 study by the Strategic Studies Institute of the U.S. Army War College cast great doubts on the claim that Iraq used chemical weapons on the Kurds. Following are the two gassing incidents as described in the report:

In September 1988, however � a month after the war (between Iran and Iraq) had ended � the State Department abruptly, and in what many viewed as a sensational manner, condemned Iraq for allegedly using chemicals against its Kurdish population. The incident cannot be understood without some background of Iraq's relations with the Kurds...throughout the war Iraq effectively faced two enemies � Iran and elements of its own Kurdish minority. Significant numbers of the Kurds had launched a revolt against Baghdad and in the process teamed up with Tehran. As soon as the war with Iran ended, Iraq announced its determination to crush the Kurdish insurrection. It sent Republican Guards to the Kurdish area, and in the course of the operation � according to the U.S. State Department � gas was used, with the result that numerous Kurdish civilians were killed. The Iraqi government denied that any such gassing had occurred. Nonetheless, Secretary of State Schultz stood by U.S. accusations, and the U.S. Congress, acting on its own, sought to impose economic sanctions on Baghdad as a violator of the Kurds' human rights.

Having looked at all the evidence that was available to us, we find it impossible to confirm the State Department's claim that gas was used in this instance. To begin with, there were never any victims produced. International relief organizations who examined the Kurds � in Turkey where they had gone for asylum � failed to discover any. Nor were there ever any found inside Iraq. The claim rests solely on testimony of the Kurds who had crossed the border into Turkey, where they were interviewed by staffers of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee...

It appears that in seeking to punish Iraq, the Congress was influenced by another incident that occurred five months earlier in another Iraqi-Kurdish city, Halabjah. In March 1988, the Kurds at Halabjah were bombarded with chemical weapons, producing many deaths. Photographs of the Kurdish victims were widely disseminated in the international media. Iraq was blamed for the Halabjah attack, even though it was subsequently brought out that Iran too had used chemicals in this operation and it seemed likely that it was the Iranian bombardment that had actually killed the Kurds.
Thus, in our view, the Congress acted more on the basis of emotionalism than factual information, and without sufficient thought for the adverse diplomatic effects of its action.

Claim: Iraq must be attacked because it has ignored UN Security Council resolutions � these resolutions must be backed up by the use of force.

Reality: Iraq is but one of the many countries that have not complied with UN Security Council resolutions. In addition to the dozen or so resolutions currently being violated by Iraq, a conservative estimate reveals that there are an additional 91 Security Council resolutions by countries other than Iraq that are also currently being violated. Adding in older resolutions that were violated would mean easily more than 200 UN Security Council resolutions have been violated with total impunity. Countries currently in violation include: Israel, Turkey, Morocco, Croatia, Armenia, Russia, Sudan, Turkey-controlled Cyprus, India, Pakistan, Indonesia. None of these countries have been threatened with force over their violations.

Claim: Iraq has anthrax and other chemical and biological agents.

Reality: That may be true. However, according to UNSCOM's chief weapons inspector 90�95 percent of Iraq's chemical and biological weapons and capabilities were destroyed by 1998; those that remained have likely degraded in the intervening four years and are likely useless. A 1994 Senate Banking Committee hearing revealed some 74 shipments of deadly chemical and biological agents from the U.S. to Iraq in the 1980s. As one recent press report stated:

One 1986 shipment from the Virginia-based American Type Culture Collection included three strains of anthrax, six strains of the bacteria that make botulinum toxin and three strains of the bacteria that cause gas gangrene. Iraq later admitted to the United Nations that it had made weapons out of all three...

The CDC, meanwhile, sent shipments of germs to the Iraqi Atomic Energy Commission and other agencies involved in Iraq's weapons of mass destruction programs. It sent samples in 1986 of botulinum toxin and botulinum toxoid � used to make vaccines against botulinum toxin � directly to the Iraqi chemical and biological weapons complex at al-Muthanna, the records show.

These were sent while the United States was supporting Iraq covertly in its war against Iran. U.S. assistance to Iraq in that war also included covertly-delivered intelligence on Iranian troop movements and other assistance. This is just another example of our policy of interventionism in affairs that do not concern us � and how this interventionism nearly always ends up causing harm to the United States.

Claim: The president claimed last night that: "Iraq possesses ballistic missiles with a likely range of hundreds of miles; far enough to strike Saudi Arabia, Israel, Turkey and other nations in a region where more than 135,000 American civilians and service members live and work."

Reality: Then why is only Israel talking about the need for the U.S. to attack Iraq? None of the other countries seem concerned at all. Also, the fact that some 135,000 Americans in the area are under threat from these alleged missiles just makes the point that it is time to bring our troops home to defend our own country.

Claim: Iraq harbors al-Qaeda and other terrorists.

Reality: The administration has claimed that some Al-Qaeda elements have been present in Northern Iraq. This is territory controlled by the Kurds � who are our allies � and is patrolled by U.S. and British fighter aircraft. Moreover, dozens of countries � including Iran and the United States � are said to have al-Qaeda members on their territory. Of the other terrorists allegedly harbored by Iraq, all are affiliated with Palestinian causes and do not attack the United States.

Claim: President Bush said in his speech on 7 October 2002: " Many people have asked how close Saddam Hussein is to developing a nuclear weapon. Well, we don't know exactly, and that's the problem..."

Reality: An admission of a lack of information is justification for an attack?

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=48827
http://www.nysun.com/article/24480


That article did not prove anything. The main guy in the article deffected BEFORE the 1st Gulf War.

Then it came from World Net Daily. I don't care much for that web site. They don't check there sources all that much, I have read several stories that were flat out misinformation.

The second article that just appeared quotes an Israeli General. I take that information with a grain of salt.

Powell admits false WMD's claim (http://www.thenation.com/blogs/capitalgames?pid=1442)

This article also mentions the guy who told us about the WMD's.

That gave me chills Winn-girl. Thanks for sharing that!

It's 3am and who do you want answering the phone (http://youtube.com/watch?v=PJtLKG1mkWQ)

"...the speech Ron Paul gave on the house floor BEFORE the vote to give Bush authority to invade Iraq."
belongs under the heading of "the wisdom of Ron Paul" because it definitely demonstrates his wisdom. Very good point, Bryan. Sen. Paul has many good points. Please continue your work to try to get some of his insights into resolutions in the party conventions in which you and Sen. Paul are participating. Thank you for practicing what you believe.

Thanks, Laura. Here's the diddy straight from snopes.com. (http://www.snopes.com/politics/quotes/glenn.asp?print=y) John Glenn's discussion with Metzenbaum is validated at fact, however, the other references to Iraq, murders in Detroit, etc. were not spoken by Senator Glenn during his rebuke with Metzenbaum.
I guess that goes to show you can't believe every email your friends forward to you... :p

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

One cannot argue against the following historical facts, however:

FDR (DEMOCRAT) led us into World War II.

Germany never attacked us ; Japan did.
From 1941-1945, 450,000 lives were lost .
an average of 112,500 per year.



Truman (DEMOCRAT) finished that war and started one in Korea
North Korea never attacked us
From 1950-1953, 55,000 lives were lost ..
an average of 18,334 per year.


John F. Kennedy (DEMOCRAT) started the Vietnam conflict in 1962.
Vietnam never attacked us.


Johnson (DEMOCRAT) turned Vietnam into a quagmire.
From 1965-1975, 58,000 lives were lost .
an average of 5,800 per year.


Clinton (DEMOCRAT) went to war in Bosnia without UN or French consent.
Bosnia never attacked us.
He was offered Osama bin Laden's head on a platter three
times by Sudan and did nothing. Osama has attacked us on
multiple occasions.

So, what do they teach for history in school these days? I don't know who taught you Gotcha, but the WWII vet who taught my junior high history covered the logic and rational for going to war with Germany first in WWII, quite clearly. It had a lot to do with what we could manage where, and imminent threat. The reality is that at the outset, there wasn't anything we could do about Japan, no ships. The non-interventionist view that prevailed at that time had prevented a ramp up in ship building (my recollection is that this was something supported by FDR prior to the war) that would have allowed us to affectively go after Japan.

That said, your notion that Germany wasn't attacking us in WWII is probably misplaced. For example, you might look at the 1198 Americans killed on the Lusitania as a start. From there you can go to the three other American ships sunk by the Germans prior to our entry into WWII.

However, I'm not sure what point you're trying to make? Are you trying to blame all the wars we've been in on Democrats? If so, I'd question why conservatives repeatedly support the GOP then if their notion is security through defeating our enemies? That position seems to support the Democrats as the protect American interests party much more than the GOP. Perhaps you're trying to say is that the reality is that the GOP is a bunch of peace loving hippies and we should vote for Dems? Anyway, a little explanation might help.

Za thanks for posting RPs speech. What's incredible about this is that the information was readily available, and was ignored, by the liberal press, the Congress, the Senate, and Bush. RP, Senator Bird, and a handful of others stood up and pointed out what a bunch of unmitigated garbage the evidence being presented was.

Oh, last point, Gotcha, the info you're presenting, I don't know what news you watch, but I get that stuff in the news all the time. NPR covers it as does CNN and even the main stream news gets it. On the other hand, I don't watch Fox news, Bill O'Brien or listen to Rush. If those are your news sources, maybe they missed it?

The notion that our news is liberal seems silly to me. Given that Viacom, Disney, and GE own the three networks and they are all incredibly conservative companies with conservative view points seems counter intuitive. On the other hand, given that we get so little of the material like that presented by Za, you'd have to conclude that what we do get, as bleak as it is, is what they have to give us in order to maintain any credibility whatsoever...

no problem, Jerry, I get stuff like that e-mailed to me all the time...from both sides of the party lines...both pro and anti-military. Since having Ian limits the amount of actual news coverage I am able to watch/read, I have found Snopes to be most helpful.

oh, and here's a little humor I just came up with...
remember my life of late revolves around a 20 month old....
My co-worker just told me that they were watching morning news shows this morning while getting ready for work and her 19 year-old step-son asked what impeachment is. She explained fully to him. She often finds the lack of knowledge in him amazing and disappointing...I told her that no, impeachment is what my son experienced this morning after eating pureed peaches on his french toast -- all over his face. :D-- he was impeached. Luckily, we were able to simply wash away Ian's impeachment. The Gov of NY will have to scrub a little harder.

JFK was stuck with Ike's mess.

1953 � By November, French commander in Indochina, General Navarre, asked U.S. General McCarty to loan twelve Fairchild C-119 aircraft, to be flown by French crews, to facilitate Operation Castor at Dien Bien Phu.

1954 � In January, Navarre's Deputy asked for additional transport aircraft. Negotiations ended on March 3rd with 24 CIA pilots (CAT) to operate 12 US Air Force C-119's, flying undercover using French insignia, but maintained by the USAF.

1954 � The Viet Minh defeat the French at the battle of Dien Bien Phu. The defeat, along with the end of the Korean war the previous year, causes the French to seek a negotiated settlement to the war.

1 November 1955 � Eisenhower deploys the Military Assistance Advisory Group to train the ARVN (South Vietnamese Army). This marks the official beginning of American involvement in the war as recognized by the Vietnam Veterans Memorial.

oh, and here's a little humor I just came up with...
remember my life of late revolves around a 20 month old....
My co-worker just told me that they were watching morning news shows this morning while getting ready for work and her 19 year-old step-son asked what impeachment is. She explained fully to him. She often finds the lack of knowledge in him amazing and disappointing...I told her that no, impeachment is what my son experienced this morning after eating pureed peaches on his french toast -- all over his face. :D-- he was impeached. Luckily, we were able to simply wash away Ian's impeachment. The Gov of NY will have to scrub a little harder.



Spitzer's an idiot. He shouldn't have been impeached for this scandal, rather, for being dumb as a board.

BTW - I do find it amusing that we'd impeach this guy for his peccadilloes, but not our President for lying about and getting us into an illegal war. It seems O.K. that Scooter outed a CIA agent at Cheney and Rove's direction, but this is completely unacceptable. Huh?

Spitzer's an idiot. He shouldn't have been impeached for this scandal, rather, for being dumb as a board.

BTW - I do find it amusing that we'd impeach this guy for his peccadilloes, but not our President for lying about and getting us into an illegal war.



Bush Lied = People Died

You got one of these bumber stickers, Lyle? These items seem to be quite popular among motorists here in the Keystone state.

I haven't seen those bumper stickers here in TX, but I did get a t-shirt when I was participating in a march in DC.

It's time for a laugh!

Lesson In Political Systems

DEMOCRATIC
You have two cows.
Your neighbor has none.
You feel guilty for being successful.
Barbara Streisand sings for you.

REPUBLICANISM
You have two cows.
Your neighbor has none.
So?

SOCIALIST
You have two cows.
The government takes one and gives it to your neighbor.
You form a cooperative to tell him how to manage his cow.

COMMUNIST
You have two cows.
The government seizes both and provides you with milk.
You wait in line for hours to get it.
It is expensive and sour.

CAPITALISM, AMERICAN STYLE
You have two cows.
You sell one, buy a bull, and build a herd of cows.

BUREAUCRACY, AMERICAN STYLE
You have two cows.
Under the new farm program the government pays you to shoot one, milk
the other, and then pours the milk down the drain.

AMERICAN CORPORATION
You have two cows.
You sell one, lease it back to yourself and do an IPO on the 2nd one.
You force the two cows to produce the milk of four cows. You are
surprised when one cow drops dead. You spin an announcement to the
analysts stating you have downsized and are reducing expenses.
Your stock goes up.

FRENCH CORPORATION
You have two cows.
You go on strike because you want three cows.
You go to lunch and drink wine.
Life is good.

JAPANESE CORPORATION
You have two cows.
You redesign them so they are one-tenth the size of an ordinary cow
and produce twenty times the milk.
They learn to travel on unbelievably crowded trains.
Most are at the top of their class at cow school.

GERMAN CORPORATION
You have two cows.
You engineer them so they are all blond, drink lots of beer, give
excellent quality milk, and run a hundred miles an hour.
Unfortunately they also demand 13 weeks of paid vacation per year.

ITALIAN CORPORATION
You have two cows but you don't know where they are.
While ambling around, you see a beautiful woman.
You break for lunch.
Life is good.

RUSSIAN CORPORATION
You have two cows.
You have some vodka.
You count them and learn you have five cows.
You have some more vodka.
You count them again and learn you have 42 cows.
The Russian Mafia shows up and takes however many cows you actually had.

TALIBAN CORPORATION
You have all the cows in Afghanistan, which are two.
You don't milk them because you cannot touch any creature' s private parts
You get a $40 million grant from the US government to find
alternatives to milk production but use all the money to buy weapons.

IRAQI CORPORATION
You have two cows.
They go into hiding.
They send radio tapes of their mooing.

POLISH CORPORATION
You have two bulls.
Employees are regularly maimed and killed while attempting to milk them.

BELGIAN CORPORATION
You have one cow.
The cow is schizophrenic.
Sometimes the cow thinks he's French, other times he's Flemish.
The Flemish cow won't share with the French cow.
The French cow wants control of the Flemish cow's milk.
The cow asks permission to be cut in half.
The cow dies happy.

FLORIDA CORPORATION
You have a black cow and a brown cow.
Everyone votes for the best looking one.
Some of the people who actually like the brown one best accidentally
vote for the black one.
Some people vote for both.
Some people vote for neither.
Some people can't figure o ut how to vote at all.
Finally, a bunch of guys from out-of-state tell you which one you
think is the best-looking cow.

CALIFORNIA CORPORATION
You have millions of cows.
They make real California cheese.
Only five speak English.
Most are illegal.
Arnold likes the ones with the big udders.

immigration bust (http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&amp;VideoID=30215 815)

Is Rover a Republican? (http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/08072/864239-176.stm)

We just can't win with these people.

http://www.knbc.com/news/15616592/detail..._02000303172008 (http://www.knbc.com/news/15616592/detail.html?treets=la&amp;tml=la_12pm&amp;ts=T&amp;tmi=la_12pm _1_02000303172008)

So any good that's come from our invasion is not being credited to us. I guess they don't know our current president is spending BILLIONS of our hard earned tax money on ungrateful .... people! Reading this really made me mad!

We just can't win with these people.

http://www.knbc.com/news/15616592/detail..._02000303172008 (http://www.knbc.com/news/15616592/detail.html?treets=la&amp;tml=la_12pm&amp;ts=T&amp;tmi=la_12pm _1_02000303172008)

So any good that's come from our invasion is not being credited to us. I guess they don't know our current president is spending BILLIONS of our hard earned tax money on ungrateful .... people! Reading this really made me mad!



I always love comments like "so any good that's come of our invasion"

Let's go to Websters for a definition of invasion:

To enter with hostile intent, as for conquering. To encroach upon;trespass on. To spread over or penetrate injuriously.

Now, I don't know about you, but I don't see a lot of good in the notion of an invasion. BTW - WTFG's use of the term was correct. This is an invasion, and despite the selling of it as "we're going to save the Iraqis," when we went in, we did nothing to secure the population, nothing to secure the national antiquities of the country, and nothing to stop looting. What we did do was go into the National Oil Ministry on day one, secure it and the records kept there. We also went into the oil fields and protected those.

Now you might think we did that to secure the future of the country, except that our actions over the past 5 years have been directed towards putting in place a government who's first action was to wipe out all existing oil contracts and move them over to American held companies. Hmmmmmm.

BTW - Just for kicks, check out the Winter Soldier event happening in Washington DC this week. It's been completely ignored by all of the "liberal" press. Essentially, it's American Iraq veterans talking about military policies in Iraq. Policies that allowed them to shoot civilians on sight in many cases resulting in the deaths of children and whole families. The stories are graphic and horrible. They show one possible reason why the Iraqis might not be too thrilled with our military... invasion.

If you want to hear some of it, go to democracynow.org.

Oh yeah, since they don't appreciate us being there, why don't we just do the logical thing and get out? Oh yeah, the lack of forethought on the part of our leaders didn't take into account that this action would embolden and empower Iran into a leader in the region. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Click here if you believe President Bush lied about Iraq's WMDs... (http://www.kdkaradio.com/topic/play_window.php?audioType=Episode&amp;audioId=1002169)

YAWN!

Is it that you think we don't hold the Democrats culpable for this mess right along with Bush? No hypocrisy whatsoever, they should go to jail and be put in a cell right next to Cheney and his hand puppet. That especially includes that GOP shill Hillary.

This is why some of us support people like Ron Paul, or Dennis Kuscinich; and why Obama has so much support, despite the fact that he's a - chose one: 1) Muslim Terrorist, 2) Radical Christian Racist. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

BTW - you notice that only after the war, and after being told by the Bush Admin, did these idiots say that Iraq had weapons. There is no question these guys abdicated their responsibility, since there was ample evidence there were no weapons. They simply jumped on the band wagon. That is hardly an excuse. But rather than try and blame one side or the other, why don't we step up to the plate and hold all our political leaders accountable and do something, like actually informing ourselves about the issues and voting appropriately? Naw, why would we want to do that...

20 Year Anniversary (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://voanews.com/english/images/AP_Iraqi_man_sits_in_a_graveyard_halabja_eng_195_7 dec06.jpg&amp;imgrefurl=http://voanews.com/english/2008-03-16-voa12.cfm&amp;h=177&amp;w=195&amp;sz=14&amp;hl=en&amp;start=34&amp;tbnid=m LmLOYFvKue5GM:&amp;tbnh=94&amp;tbnw=104&amp;prev=/images%3Fq%3Dkurds%26start%3D20%26gbv%3D2%26ndsp%3 D20%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN)

20 Year Anniversary (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://voanews.com/english/images/AP_Iraqi_man_sits_in_a_graveyard_halabja_eng_195_7 dec06.jpg&amp;imgrefurl=http://voanews.com/english/2008-03-16-voa12.cfm&amp;h=177&amp;w=195&amp;sz=14&amp;hl=en&amp;start=34&amp;tbnid=m LmLOYFvKue5GM:&amp;tbnh=94&amp;tbnw=104&amp;prev=/images%3Fq%3Dkurds%26start%3D20%26gbv%3D2%26ndsp%3 D20%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN)



YAWN ! Shall I post the articles that show that Saddam had funding, support, and chemical weapons materials from the west and the U.S. while this was going on? Or perhaps the wonderful picture of Don Rumsfeld shaking Saddam's hand right after the gassing occurred? Not buying it Gotcha. We're not as culpable for the atrocities in Iraq that occurred before the invasion as we are for the ones afterward, but we still played a key role. BTW - if we're really concerned about oppression, why haven't we gone into Darfur? What was that word again... Oh Yeah, hypocrisy...

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc184/gotcherj/bushlied.jpg (http://s214.photobucket.com/albums/cc184/gotcherj/?action=view&current=bushlied.jpg)

20 Year Anniversary (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://voanews.com/english/images/AP_Iraqi_man_sits_in_a_graveyard_halabja_eng_195_7 dec06.jpg&amp;imgrefurl=http://voanews.com/english/2008-03-16-voa12.cfm&amp;h=177&amp;w=195&amp;sz=14&amp;hl=en&amp;start=34&amp;tbnid=m LmLOYFvKue5GM:&amp;tbnh=94&amp;tbnw=104&amp;prev=/images%3Fq%3Dkurds%26start%3D20%26gbv%3D2%26ndsp%3 D20%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN)



BTW - you did know that years before the invasion, we separated the Kurds out from the rest of Iraq creating a no fly no go zone? They had been acting independently and governing themselves separate from the rest of Iraq since the first gulf war.

Of course now, we're allowing Turkey to invade the Kurdish territory looking for the PKK. Yep, we certainly are keeping them safer now that we've... invaded.

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc184/gotcherj/bushlied.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket (http://s214.photobucket.com/albums/cc184/gotcherj/?action=view&amp;current=bushlied.jpg)



Are you sure? Which lie?

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc184/gotcherj/iraqtoilet.gif (http://s214.photobucket.com/albums/cc184/gotcherj/?action=view&current=iraqtoilet.gif)

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc184/gotcherj/Up-to-their-Necks2.jpg (http://s214.photobucket.com/albums/cc184/gotcherj/?action=view&current=Up-to-their-Necks2.jpg)

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc184/gotcherj/hillarybaggage.jpg (http://s214.photobucket.com/albums/cc184/gotcherj/?action=view&current=hillarybaggage.jpg)

A powerful message from ALIPAC:

Friends of ALIPAC,

Now is a good time to brace yourselves and prepare for the worst, while motivating yourself to fight harder than ever in hope for the best for America.

With the Presidential race debacle, combined with an economy that may take us into depression era conditions, we must prepare.

So many of ALIPAC's supporters are on fixed incomes or working check to check to keep afloat. Time and money are short, as the race intensifies to just keep our heads above water.

The coming economic implosion in America is due to a combination of factors. One of the strong reasons is the years of deregulation and lack of industry enforcement. While our government has continued to fail us on a massive level regarding border security and immigration enforcement, Federal laws and regulations that were designed to prevent another great depression and assure product quality have also been abandoned on an unprecedented scale.

You will see ALIPAC and many of our allies begin to tie the economy and illegal immigration issues together over the coming weeks.

On one hand, the reversal of illegal immigration which has begun will hurt our economy. This is because the corporations that have hijacked the government of "We The People" have been trying to head off the collapse, by growing our economy through rapid population growth that is fueled by illegal immigration.

One prime example of this is that illegal immigration has propped up the housing market because we have 5 to 10 million housing units we do not need because of illegal immigration. American home buyers have also been fleeing states like California and Texas to get away from high illegal immigration impact areas. With the reversal of illegal immigration, there will be economic pain in many sectors of our economy.

On the other hand, illegal immigration is causing many terrible hardships on American workers.

In years past, people would take on an extra job or any job to keep food on the table and a roof above their heads. Many times, these jobs would be labor intensive, service sector, or menial jobs but families would do what they needed to during hard times.

In 2008, many Americans are finding themselves cut off from these jobs because they are occupied by illegal aliens, language barriers, or wages are too low. It is a documented fact that illegal immigration drives down wages and in many cases working in construction is not enough to keep food on the table or the mortgage paid at the depressed wage rate, if you are paying income taxes. The results are that Americans are loosing their homes at a rate not seen since the great depression.

The cause for this economic collapse is illegal immigration, drug recalls, unsafe products, food recalls, runaway taxes and Federal budgets are all rooted in the same political illness. They are the results of our government charging more for less. They are the results of the loss of self-governance by the American citizenry.

Please keep in mind that things will only get worse in America, as long as Americans are not the ones in charge. Only when we return citizen control to our government can things improve.

We must all continue to combine our time and funds, in the effort to make a difference any way we can to restore America.

There is plenty of blame to go around and it deserves to be directed at both political parties. The upper echelons of the Republican Party have opened our borders and supported an "anything goes" economic policy to rival the 1920's. The Democrats have abandoned their once populist economic policies and instead focus on identity politics of gender, race, and sexual orientation.

This has left the majority of Americans trapped in between powerful, greedy, and ruthless corporations and angry special interest identity groups.

American apathy has paved the way for this to happen combined with the escalating cost of political campaigns, which have taken the process far above the heads of average Americans.

The enemy is within our gates. The enemy is in our ranks.

In the coming months, you will see an unprecedented effort to dissuade and demoralize you. You will hear reports of bogus polls like the recent CNN Poll claiming that both Obama and McCain get equal high marks on addressing immigration. Anyone here believe that?

The lies and excuses we have witnessed are about to increase, as big business and the government of Mexico plans to launch a multi-million dollar advertising campaign to persuade Americans to support or not oppose "Comprehensive Immigration Reform". While some of this marketing will be overt, much of it will be covert and deceptive. You will see the best fake polls money can buy. You will see their messages imbedded in movies and TV shows, and you will see major network "news coverage" propaganda on an unprecedented level.

The opposition is about to make every effort to brand all those who stand against Amnesty as evil hateful loudmouths who represent a minority opinion. The hammer will drop soon. You are about to witness the best lies money can buy.

Prepare yourselves, and get ready to keep the faith. This battle is about to get more intense and for each of you who stands down and decreases your volunteerism and contributions due to the bad economy and their new offensive will be lost ground for our battle.

Our cause is just, we speak for the true American majority, we have the moral high ground, and our plan is the best way to go for America and no propaganda and lies will change that.

The opposition will find us dug in, fortified and resolute.

William Gheen
www.alipac.us (http://www.alipac.us)
Americans for Legal Immigration PAC


WE WIN IN MISSISSIPPI!

Special thanks to all of you that bombarded the Governor's office with calls. He signed the bill into law at the last minute before the deadline expired.


Representative Pelath in Indiana

Many of you contacted the three sellouts that blocked our immigration enforcement bill in Indiana. Representative Pelath has sent out e-mails to many of you claiming he did not sign the compromise legislation because he wanted it to be stronger. He is obviously trying to save his political hide. Imagine that, a politician twisting the truth. The truth is that Representative Pelath was appointed as one of four conferees that were supposed to reconcile the Senate and House versions of the bill, which was supported by over 70% of the public and that had passed by large majorities in each chamber. By refusing to sign the compromise bill or work effectively with the other conferees, Representative Pelath has made a name for himself by thwarting the process in favor of illegal aliens. Pelath, Weatherfax, and Arnold failed us all, by failing to do the job they were appointed to do to pass that bill.

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc184/gotcherj/iraqtoilet.gif" border="0" alt="Photobucket (http://s214.photobucket.com/albums/cc184/gotcherj/?action=view&amp;current=iraqtoilet.gif)



Now that's funny. You want funnier.


It has become the norm for big business to take out of the tax base. Even the Iraq war is part of this where Raytheon, KBR and others make billions and we pay.

Part of the rebuilding of Iraq was supposed to be providing jobs for Iraqis. Instead, KBR went the cheap route bringing in workers from other places where they could get cheaper labor, thus pocketing more money. The end result is a large pool of unemployed young Iraqi men, cheap fodder for terrorist recruiters. Now that's a good use of our tax dollars!

This is why we should have invaded Mexico instead. ;)

Nice article with some good points, Thanks! I don't quite view the immigration issue the way they do but I suspect what they are saying has great merit in terms of pay, housing and other issues.

This is why we should have invaded Mexico instead. ;)



Naw, once global warming hits full on, they're going to have a drought. On the other hand, they do have oil... Oh yeah, and tele-novellas!

Well I'm tired of all you Texans coming up to Oklahoma looking for jobs because you can't speak Spanish and some illegal has taken yours.

We have standards up here you know. We don't set them very high but we got to have something to be proud of. :D

They also have tequila. Do not take the blessed agave lightly.

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc184/gotcherj/mccain_iraq_chances.jpg (http://s214.photobucket.com/albums/cc184/gotcherj/?action=view&current=mccain_iraq_chances.jpg)

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc184/gotcherj/xcaricature-obama-lyin.jpg (http://s214.photobucket.com/albums/cc184/gotcherj/?action=view&current=xcaricature-obama-lyin.jpg)

A young man named Lyle was about to finish his first year of college. Like so many others his age, he considered himself to be a very liberal Democrat, and among other liberal ideals, was very much in favor of higher taxes to support more government programs, in other words, redistribution of wealth.

He was deeply ashamed that his father was a rather staunch Republican, a feeling he openly expressed. Based on the lectures that he had participated in, and the occasional chat with a professor, he felt that his father had for years harbored an evil, selfish desire to keep what he thought should be his.

One day he was challenging his father on his opposition to higher taxes on the rich and the need for more government programs. The self-professed objectivity proclaimed by his professors had to be the truth and he indicated so to his father.

He responded by asking how he was doing in school.

Taken aback, Lyle answered rather haughtily that he had a 4.0 GPA, and let him know that it was tough to maintain, insisting that he was taking a very difficult course load and was constantly studying, which left him no time to go out and party like other people he knew.

His father listened then asked, 'How is your friend Jerry doing?'

He replied, 'Jerry is barely getting by. All he takes are easy classes, he never studies, and he barely has a 2.0 GPA. He is so popular on campus; college for him is a blast. He's always invited to all the parties, and lots of times he doesn't even show up for classes because he's too hung over.'

His father asked him, 'Why don't you go to the Dean's office and ask him to deduct a 1.0 off your GPA and give it to your friend Jerry, who only has a 2.0. That way you will both have a 3.0 GPA and certainly that would be a fair and equal distribution of GPA.'

Lyle, visibly shocked by his father's suggestion, angrily fired back, 'That's a crazy idea. How would that be fair? I've worked really hard for my grades! I've invested a lot of time, and a lot of hard work. Jerry has done next to nothing toward his degree. He played while I worked my tail off!'

The father slowly smiled, winked and said gently 'Welcome to the Republican Party.'

Ah yes, it's joke day on this thread....

"President George Bush said each one of us would get a $600.00 tax rebate. It was previously slated to be $800.00, but they dropped it to a $600.00 tax rebate because of various budget problems.

Now, if we spend that money at Wal-Mart, all the money will go to China, if we spend it on computers, most of the money will go to Korea or India. If we spend it on gasoline it will all go to the Arabs .....and none of these scenarios will help the American economy.

We need to keep that money here in America .....so the only way to keep that money here at home is to drink beer, gamble, or spend it on prostitution. Currently it seems that these are the only businesses still left in the U.S.

I'm Elliot Spitzer and I approve this message."

:D

spend it on prostitution



Ok, I am ready to stimulate the economy :D

A young man named Lyle was about to finish his first year of college. Like so many others his age, he considered himself to be a very liberal Democrat, and among other liberal ideals, was very much in favor of higher taxes to support more government programs, in other words, redistribution of wealth.

He was deeply ashamed that his father was a rather staunch Republican, a feeling he openly expressed. Based on the lectures that he had participated in, and the occasional chat with a professor, he felt that his father had for years harbored an evil, selfish desire to keep what he thought should be his.

One day he was challenging his father on his opposition to higher taxes on the rich and the need for more government programs. The self-professed objectivity proclaimed by his professors had to be the truth and he indicated so to his father.

He responded by asking how he was doing in school.

Taken aback, Lyle answered rather haughtily that he had a 4.0 GPA, and let him know that it was tough to maintain, insisting that he was taking a very difficult course load and was constantly studying, which left him no time to go out and party like other people he knew.

His father listened then asked, 'How is your friend Jerry doing?'

He replied, 'Jerry is barely getting by. All he takes are easy classes, he never studies, and he barely has a 2.0 GPA. He is so popular on campus; college for him is a blast. He's always invited to all the parties, and lots of times he doesn't even show up for classes because he's too hung over.'

His father asked him, 'Why don't you go to the Dean's office and ask him to deduct a 1.0 off your GPA and give it to your friend Jerry, who only has a 2.0. That way you will both have a 3.0 GPA and certainly that would be a fair and equal distribution of GPA.'

Lyle, visibly shocked by his father's suggestion, angrily fired back, 'That's a crazy idea. How would that be fair? I've worked really hard for my grades! I've invested a lot of time, and a lot of hard work. Jerry has done next to nothing toward his degree. He played while I worked my tail off!'

The father slowly smiled, winked and said gently 'Welcome to the Republican Party.'



YAWN!

What you really mean to say is that Jerry schlepped around, did political deals, paid the student body, and got them to steal 1.0 points off of Lyle's GPA and give it to Jerry. That, is a welcome to the Republican party.

Today, our government gives out more money, that is, my taxes, to the rich than they do to the poor. The Republican party used to represent the middle class, now they are a tool for the rich. The Dems are better, but still far from perfect. The fact that you don't understand this David, is how the Republican party continues to get away with it. The fact that it isn't in the news puts the lie to the mistaken notion that the news is somehow liberal.

The GOP is good at scaring, "Oh look, the poor are stealing you blind!" They never give you the numbers though. They never tell you just how much big business takes out vs how much the poor take out. The reason is that there'd be a revolution if they did.

BTW - Go to pbs moyers journal and watch the expose' on earmarks for the military. When you get to the part on the helmets that were made even though the military didn't want them and knew they didn't work, and you see the price tag you'll want to puke.

Let's see, anti-missile technology that only works if you cheat.

Tanks with gas-tanks on the side where armor should be.

The Osprey

Helmets that don't work

Shots for anthrax that make our troops sick

Ships that the Coast Guard doesn't want

Billions to Blackwater so they can shoot civilians indiscriminately with no repercussions

KBR poisons our troops in Iraq

And David thinks I'm worried about Jerry stealing a point off my GPA... /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

No David, I'm worried about my taxes being stolen and shipped in boxes to Iraq, and then going missing.

spend it on prostitution



Ok, I am ready to stimulate the economy :D



Do they have prostitutes at Walmart now? :)

I wonder how many they will let you can take thru the express lane. :confused:

How about buy one large pizza and get a prostitute and 1/2 price delivery service? :cool:

Or.....

How about a prostitute that turns into a large pizza after you're done? :)

Ah yes, it's joke day on this thread....

"President George Bush said each one of us would get a $600.00 tax rebate. It was previously slated to be $800.00, but they dropped it to a $600.00 tax rebate because of various budget problems.

Now, if we spend that money at Wal-Mart, all the money will go to China, if we spend it on computers, most of the money will go to Korea or India. If we spend it on gasoline it will all go to the Arabs .....and none of these scenarios will help the American economy.

We need to keep that money here in America .....so the only way to keep that money here at home is to drink beer, gamble, or spend it on prostitution. Currently it seems that these are the only businesses still left in the U.S.

I'm Elliot Spitzer and I approve this message."



Yes, but wasn't it Bush who said this $600 was supposed to help with the Mortgage Crisis... /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif while the fed was giving $30 billion in a bail out to Bear Sterns (i.e. a $30 billion gift to Chase)?

A young man named Lyle was about to finish his first year of college. Like so many others his age, he considered himself to be a very liberal Democrat, and among other liberal ideals, was very much in favor of higher taxes to support more government programs, in other words, redistribution of wealth.

He was deeply ashamed that his father was a rather staunch Republican, a feeling he openly expressed. Based on the lectures that he had participated in, and the occasional chat with a professor, he felt that his father had for years harbored an evil, selfish desire to keep what he thought should be his.

One day he was challenging his father on his opposition to higher taxes on the rich and the need for more government programs. The self-professed objectivity proclaimed by his professors had to be the truth and he indicated so to his father.

He responded by asking how he was doing in school.

Taken aback, Lyle answered rather haughtily that he had a 4.0 GPA, and let him know that it was tough to maintain, insisting that he was taking a very difficult course load and was constantly studying, which left him no time to go out and party like other people he knew.

His father listened then asked, 'How is your friend Jerry doing?'

He replied, 'Jerry is barely getting by. All he takes are easy classes, he never studies, and he barely has a 2.0 GPA. He is so popular on campus; college for him is a blast. He's always invited to all the parties, and lots of times he doesn't even show up for classes because he's too hung over.'

His father asked him, 'Why don't you go to the Dean's office and ask him to deduct a 1.0 off your GPA and give it to your friend Jerry, who only has a 2.0. That way you will both have a 3.0 GPA and certainly that would be a fair and equal distribution of GPA.'

Lyle, visibly shocked by his father's suggestion, angrily fired back, 'That's a crazy idea. How would that be fair? I've worked really hard for my grades! I've invested a lot of time, and a lot of hard work. Jerry has done next to nothing toward his degree. He played while I worked my tail off!'

The father slowly smiled, winked and said gently 'Welcome to the Republican Party.'



YAWN!

What you really mean to say is that Jerry schlepped around, did political deals, paid the student body, and got them to steal 1.0 points off of Lyle's GPA and give it to Jerry. That, is a welcome to the Republican party.

Today, our government gives out more money, that is, my taxes, to the rich than they do to the poor. The Republican party used to represent the middle class, now they are a tool for the rich. The Dems are better, but still far from perfect. The fact that you don't understand this David, is how the Republican party continues to get away with it. The fact that it isn't in the news puts the lie to the mistaken notion that the news is somehow liberal.

The GOP is good at scaring, "Oh look, the poor are stealing you blind!" They never give you the numbers though. They never tell you just how much big business takes out vs how much the poor take out. The reason is that there'd be a revolution if they did.

BTW - Go to pbs moyers journal and watch the expose' on earmarks for the military. When you get to the part on the helmets that were made even though the military didn't want them and knew they didn't work, and you see the price tag you'll want to puke.

Let's see, anti-missile technology that only works if you cheat.

Tanks with gas-tanks on the side where armor should be.

The Osprey

Helmets that don't work

Shots for anthrax that make our troops sick

Ships that the Coast Guard doesn't want

Billions to Blackwater so they can shoot civilians indiscriminately with no repercussions

KBR poisons our troops in Iraq

And David thinks I'm worried about Jerry stealing a point off my GPA... /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

No David, I'm worried about my taxes being stolen and shipped in boxes to Iraq, and then going missing.



Between all your yapping and yawning, does your mouth ever close? You are the cause of global warming, do us all a favor and stop breathing...

If the words don't come out of his mouth then more than likely they'll come out from somewhere else.

Lyle isn't that bad if you just learn not to pay attention to half of what he has to say. ;)

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc184/gotcherj/obama_borat_parody.jpg (http://s214.photobucket.com/albums/cc184/gotcherj/?action=view&current=obama_borat_parody.jpg)

Although some of the people on this list may have died in different ways from what has been reported here (Snopes), I think there are too many "coincidences" to disregard them. Billary Klinton must have had knowledge and given at least tacit approval to their demise.
The following is a list of dead people connected with Bill Clinton:

James McDougal - Clinton's convicted Whitewater partner died of an
apparent heart attack, while in solitary confinement. He was a key
witness in Ken Starr's investigation.

Mary Mahoney - A former White House intern was murdered July 1997 at a
Starbucks Coffee Shop in Georgetown. The murder happened just after
she was to go public with her story of sexual harassment in the White
House.

Vince Foster - Former White House councilor, and colleague of Hillary
Clinton at Little Rock's Rose law firm. Died of a gunshot wound to
the head, ruled a suicide.

Ron Brown - Secretary of Commerce and former DNC Chairman. Reported
to have died by impact in a plane crash. A pathologist close to the
investigation reported that there was a hole in the top of Brown's
skull resembling a gunshot wound. At the time of his death Brown was
being investigated, and spoke publicly of his willingness to cut a
deal with prosecutors.

C. Victor Raiser II - &amp; - Montgomery Raiser Major players in the
Clinton fund raising organization died in a private plane crash in
July 1992.

Paul Tulley - Democratic National Committee Political Director found
dead in a hotel room in Little Rock, September 1992. Described by
Clinton as a "Dear friend and trusted advisor".

Ed Willey - Clinton fund raiser, found dead November 1993 deep in the
woods in Virginia of a gunshot wound to the head. Ruled a suicide. Ed
Willey died on the same day his wife Kathleen Willey claimed Bill
Clinton groped her in the oval office in the White House. Ed Willey
was involved in several Clinton fund raising events.

Jerry Parks - Head of Clinton's gubernatorial security team in Little
Rock. Gunned down in his car at a deserted intersection outside Little
Rock. Park's son said his father was building a dossier on Clinton. He
allegedly threatened to reveal this information. After he died the
files were mysteriously removed from his house.

James Bunch - Died from a gunshot suicide. It was reported that he
had a "Black Book" of people containing names of influential people
who visited prostitutes in Texas and Arkansas.

James Wilson - Was found dead in May 1993 from an apparent hanging
suicide. He was reported to have ties to Whitewater.

Kathy Ferguson - Ex-wife of Arkansas Trooper Danny Ferguson died in
May 1994

was found dead in her living roon with a gunshot to her head. It was
ruled a suicide even though there were several packed suitcases, as if
she was going somewhere. Danny Ferguson was a codefendant along with
Bill Clinton in the Paula Jones lawsuit. Kathy Ferguson was a
possible corroborating witness for Paula Jones.

Bill Shelton - Arkansas State Trooper and fiancee of Kathy Ferguson.
Critical of the suicide ruling of his fiancee, he was found dead in
June 1994 of a gunshot wound also ruled a suicide at the gravesite of
his fiancee.

Gandy Baugh - Attorney for Clinton friend Dan Lassater died by jumping
out a window of a tall building January 1994. His client was a
convicted drug distributor.

Florence Martin - Accountant subcontractor for the CIA related to the
Barry Seal Mena Airport drug smuggling case. Died of three gunshot
wounds.

Suzanne Coleman - Reportedly had an affair with Clinton when he was
Arkansas Attorney General. Died of a gunshot wound to the back of the
head, ruled a suicide. Was pregnant at the time of her death.

Paula Grober - Clinton's speech interpreter for the deaf from 1978
until her death December 9, 1992. She died in a one car accident.

Danny Casolaro - Investigative reporter. Investigating Mena Airport
and Arkansas Development Finance Authority. He slit his wrists,
apparent suicide in the middle of his investigation.

Paul Wilcher - Attorney investigating corruption at Mena Airport with
Casolaro and the 1980 "October Surprise" was found dead on a toilet
June 22, 1993 in his Washington, DC apartment. Had delivered a report
to Janet Reno 3 weeks before his death.

Jon Parnell Walker - Whitewater investigator for Resolution Trust
Corp. Jumped to his death from his Arlington, Virginia apartment
balcony August 15, 1993, Was investigating Morgan Guarantee scandal.

Barbara Wise - Commerce Department staffer. Worked closely with Ron
Brown and John Huang. Cause of death unknown. Died November 29,
1996. Her bruised nude body was found locked in her office at the
Department of Commerce.

Charles Meissner - Assistant Secretary of Commerce who gave John Huang
special security clearance, died shortly thereafter in a small plane
crash.

Dr. Stanley Heard - Chairman of the National Chiropractic Health Care
Advisory Committee died with his attorney Steve Dickson in a small
plane crash. Dr. Heard, in addition to serving on Clinton's advisory
council personally treated Clinton's mother, stepfather and brother.

Barry Seal - Drug running pilot out of Mena Arkansas, Death was no
accident.

Johnny Lawhorn Jr. - Mechanic, found a check made out to Clinton in
the trunk of a car left in his repair shop. Died when his car hit a
utility pole.

Stanley Huggins - Suicide. Investigated Madison Guarantee. His
report was never released.

Hershell Friday - Attorney and Clinton fund raiser died March 1, 1994,
when his plane exploded.

Kevin Ives &amp; Don Henry - Known as "The boys on the track" case.
Reports say the boys may have stumbled upon the Mena Arkansas airport
drug operation. Controversaial case where initial report of death was
due to falling asleep on railroad track. Later reports claim the 2
boys had been slain before being placed on the tracks. Many linked to
the case died before their testimony could come before a Grand Jury.

THE FOLLOWING SIX PERSONS HAD INFORMATION ON THE IVES/HENRY CASE:
Keith Coney - Died when his motorcycle slammed into the back of a
truck July 1988.

Keith McMaskle - Died stabbed 113 times, Nov, 1988

Gregory Collins - Died from a gunshot wound January 1989.

Jeff Rhodes - He was shot, mutilated and found burned in a trash dump
in April 1989.

James Milan - Found decapitated. Coroner ruled death due to natural
causes. Jordan Kettleson - Was found shot to death in the front seat
of his pickup truck in June 1990.

Richard Winters - Was a suspect in the Ives / Henry deaths. Was killed
in a setup robbery July 1989

THE FOLLOWING CLINTON BODYGUARDS ARE DEAD:

Major William S. Barkley, Jr.
Captain Scott J. Reynolds
Sgt. Brian Hanley
Sgt. Tim Sabel
Major General William Robertson
Col. William Densberger
Col. Robert Kelly
Spec. Gary Rhodes
Steve Willis
Robert Williams
Conway LeBleu
Todd McKeehan

I was talking to a pilot a few months ago who told me this long story about the Clintons and drug smuggling though Arkansas. He said he keeps his mouth shut because of all the deaths around it.

YAWN!
<font color="red"> I propose a new rule, anyone who types "Yawn" in response to anything should be automatically suspended for three months! :D</font>

They never give you the numbers though. They never tell you just how much big business takes out vs how much the poor take out. The reason is that there'd be a revolution if they did. <font color="red"> This is not true and you know it. If all you listen to is MPR or CBS or CNN, yeah, you may never hear the real numbers!

97% of ALL TAXES come from the top 50% of all taxpayers.

85% of ALL TAXES come from the top 25% of all taxpayers.

70% of ALL TAXES come from the top 10% of taxpayers.

58% of ALL TAXES come from the top 5% of taxpayers.

You have personally known these numbers for a long time. But you continue to ignore them and spread "mistruths" about it by saying "look at what big business takes out!" Well what did they "put in" Lyle? This isn't about corruption, or even tax breaks for the wealthy no matter how much you try to mask it in those terms elsewhere. You are trying to promote socialism and those who know the difference can see right through it.


Brilliant analogy btw concerning GPA and liberal socialism...</font>

A Japanese company ( Toyota ) and an American company (Ford) decided to
have a canoe race on the Ohio River . Both teams practiced long and
hard to reach their peak performance before the race.

On the big day, the Japanese won by a mile.

The Americans, very discouraged and depressed, decided to investigate the
reason for the crushing defeat. A management team made up of senior
management was formed to investigate and recommend appropriate action.

Their conclusion was the Japanese had 8 people rowing and 1 person
steering, while the American team had 8 people steering and 1 person
rowing.

Feeling a deeper study was in order, American management hired a
consulting company and paid them a large amount of money for a second
opinion.

They advised, of course, that too many people were steering the boat,
while not enough people were rowing.

Not sure of how to utilize that information, but wanting to prevent
another loss to the Japanese, the rowing team's management structure was
totally reorganized to 4 steering supervisors, 3 area steering
superintendents and 1 assistant superintendent steering manager and 1 rower.

They also implemented a new performance system that would give the 1
person rowing the boat greater incentive to work harder. It was called
the 'Rowing Team Quality First Program,' WI th meetings, dinners and free
pens for the rower. There was discussion of getting new paddles, canoes
and other equipment, extra vacation days for practices and bonuses.

The next year the Japanese won by two miles.

Humiliated, the American management laid off the rower for poor
performance, halted development of a new canoe, sold the paddles, and
canceled all capital investments for new equipment. The money saved was
distributed to the Senior Executives as bonuses and the next year's racing
team was out-sourced to India ..

Sadly, The End.

&gt;EPILOGUE: Ford has spent the last thirty years moving several of its factories out of the US , claiming they can't make money paying American wages while Toyota has spent the last thirty years building more than a dozen plants inside the US .



Here are last quarter's results:

Toyota made $4 billion in profits.

Ford had $9 billion in losses.

A young man named Lyle was about to finish his first year of college. Like so many others his age, he considered himself to be a very liberal Democrat, and among other liberal ideals, was very much in favor of higher taxes to support more government programs, in other words, redistribution of wealth.

He was deeply ashamed that his father was a rather staunch Republican, a feeling he openly expressed. Based on the lectures that he had participated in, and the occasional chat with a professor, he felt that his father had for years harbored an evil, selfish desire to keep what he thought should be his.

One day he was challenging his father on his opposition to higher taxes on the rich and the need for more government programs. The self-professed objectivity proclaimed by his professors had to be the truth and he indicated so to his father.

He responded by asking how he was doing in school.

Taken aback, Lyle answered rather haughtily that he had a 4.0 GPA, and let him know that it was tough to maintain, insisting that he was taking a very difficult course load and was constantly studying, which left him no time to go out and party like other people he knew.

His father listened then asked, 'How is your friend Jerry doing?'

He replied, 'Jerry is barely getting by. All he takes are easy classes, he never studies, and he barely has a 2.0 GPA. He is so popular on campus; college for him is a blast. He's always invited to all the parties, and lots of times he doesn't even show up for classes because he's too hung over.'

His father asked him, 'Why don't you go to the Dean's office and ask him to deduct a 1.0 off your GPA and give it to your friend Jerry, who only has a 2.0. That way you will both have a 3.0 GPA and certainly that would be a fair and equal distribution of GPA.'

Lyle, visibly shocked by his father's suggestion, angrily fired back, 'That's a crazy idea. How would that be fair? I've worked really hard for my grades! I've invested a lot of time, and a lot of hard work. Jerry has done next to nothing toward his degree. He played while I worked my tail off!'

The father slowly smiled, winked and said gently 'Welcome to the Republican Party.'



YAWN!

What you really mean to say is that Jerry schlepped around, did political deals, paid the student body, and got them to steal 1.0 points off of Lyle's GPA and give it to Jerry. That, is a welcome to the Republican party.

Today, our government gives out more money, that is, my taxes, to the rich than they do to the poor. The Republican party used to represent the middle class, now they are a tool for the rich. The Dems are better, but still far from perfect. The fact that you don't understand this David, is how the Republican party continues to get away with it. The fact that it isn't in the news puts the lie to the mistaken notion that the news is somehow liberal.

The GOP is good at scaring, "Oh look, the poor are stealing you blind!" They never give you the numbers though. They never tell you just how much big business takes out vs how much the poor take out. The reason is that there'd be a revolution if they did.

BTW - Go to pbs moyers journal and watch the expose' on earmarks for the military. When you get to the part on the helmets that were made even though the military didn't want them and knew they didn't work, and you see the price tag you'll want to puke.

Let's see, anti-missile technology that only works if you cheat.

Tanks with gas-tanks on the side where armor should be.

The Osprey

Helmets that don't work

Shots for anthrax that make our troops sick

Ships that the Coast Guard doesn't want

Billions to Blackwater so they can shoot civilians indiscriminately with no repercussions

KBR poisons our troops in Iraq

And David thinks I'm worried about Jerry stealing a point off my GPA... /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

No David, I'm worried about my taxes being stolen and shipped in boxes to Iraq, and then going missing.



Between all your yapping and yawning, does your mouth ever close? You are the cause of global warming, do us all a favor and stop breathing...



As is typical, David has no information, can't counter the points, so he he says... well nothing as a matter of fact.

YAWN!
<font color="red"> I propose a new rule, anyone who types "Yawn" in response to anything should be automatically suspended for three months! :D</font>

They never give you the numbers though. They never tell you just how much big business takes out vs how much the poor take out. The reason is that there'd be a revolution if they did. <font color="red"> This is not true and you know it. If all you listen to is MPR or CBS or CNN, yeah, you may never hear the real numbers!

97% of ALL TAXES come from the top 50% of all taxpayers.

85% of ALL TAXES come from the top 25% of all taxpayers.

70% of ALL TAXES come from the top 10% of taxpayers.

58% of ALL TAXES come from the top 5% of taxpayers.

You have personally known these numbers for a long time. But you continue to ignore them and spread "mistruths" about it by saying "look at what big business takes out!" Well what did they "put in" Lyle? This isn't about corruption, or even tax breaks for the wealthy no matter how much you try to mask it in those terms elsewhere. You are trying to promote socialism and those who know the difference can see right through it.


Brilliant analogy btw concerning GPA and liberal socialism...</font>






Double YAWN!

It's not my fault if you take regurgitated numbers without looking at what is really going on. They're called tax loopholes and the rich use them quite well. So, you're correct, if you look at the tax tables, instead of what really gets paid, yes, the rich are paying for it all... Putting in isn't what the tax tables say it is, it's what actually gets paid.

BTW - you're focusing on individuals, not big business. There the problems are significantly worse. No one ever talks about what business are supposed to pay and what they really pay. Go look up Microsoft or GE.

A Japanese company ( Toyota ) and an American company (Ford) decided to
have a canoe race on the Ohio River . Both teams practiced long and
hard to reach their peak performance before the race.

On the big day, the Japanese won by a mile.

The Americans, very discouraged and depressed, decided to investigate the
reason for the crushing defeat. A management team made up of senior
management was formed to investigate and recommend appropriate action.

Their conclusion was the Japanese had 8 people rowing and 1 person
steering, while the American team had 8 people steering and 1 person
rowing.

Feeling a deeper study was in order, American management hired a
consulting company and paid them a large amount of money for a second
opinion.

They advised, of course, that too many people were steering the boat,
while not enough people were rowing.

Not sure of how to utilize that information, but wanting to prevent
another loss to the Japanese, the rowing team's management structure was
totally reorganized to 4 steering supervisors, 3 area steering
superintendents and 1 assistant superintendent steering manager and 1 rower.

They also implemented a new performance system that would give the 1
person rowing the boat greater incentive to work harder. It was called
the 'Rowing Team Quality First Program,' WI th meetings, dinners and free
pens for the rower. There was discussion of getting new paddles, canoes
and other equipment, extra vacation days for practices and bonuses.

The next year the Japanese won by two miles.

Humiliated, the American management laid off the rower for poor
performance, halted development of a new canoe, sold the paddles, and
canceled all capital investments for new equipment. The money saved was
distributed to the Senior Executives as bonuses and the next year's racing
team was out-sourced to India ..

Sadly, The End.

&gt;EPILOGUE: Ford has spent the last thirty years moving several of its factories out of the US , claiming they can't make money paying American wages while Toyota has spent the last thirty years building more than a dozen plants inside the US .



Here are last quarter's results:

Toyota made $4 billion in profits.

Ford had $9 billion in losses.



Nothing truer has ever been written! In the 80s when the Japanese started kicking our donkeys, everyone said it was because their workers were better. When we actually did an analysis, it turned out that our workers were the most productive in the world. It turned out American managers were telling them to do stupid things. Some things never change.

I was talking to a pilot a few months ago who told me this long story about the Clintons and drug smuggling though Arkansas. He said he keeps his mouth shut because of all the deaths around it.



Let me guess, the Clintons are the center of drug smuggling in the U.S. Guess who their major buyer is. GWBush... :D

Jeez,

Bill's a better shot/poisoner/mugger/all around deviant than I thought!

Does Hillary know or is she the hit... person? No, that can't be it, I'm guessing they use Obama to do the dirty work.

I was talking to a pilot a few months ago who told me this long story about the Clintons and drug smuggling though Arkansas. He said he keeps his mouth shut because of all the deaths around it.



Let me guess, the Clintons are the center of drug smuggling in the U.S. Guess who their major buyer is. GWBush... :D


Or, Ronald Reagan, remember a little thing called The Iran/Contra affair?

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc184/gotcherj/xcaricature-obama-lyin.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket (http://s214.photobucket.com/albums/cc184/gotcherj/?action=view�t=xcaricature-obama-lyin.jpg)




Fill me in here. I don't get it. Obama didn't claim half the stuff he supposedly "lied" about in this caricature. I guess making up fiction and rebutting it is legitimate political discourse.

James, I tend to agree with you there.

Lyle, the Clinton Drug smuggling did have something to do with Bush Sr. too from what I heard.

Like I said, we were talking about something else and I was talking to him about being a pilot, he mentioned he was offered a job running the drugs. Good money, but he didn't want to get involved. Those that flew out of those Arkansas airfields knew what was going on.

YAWN!
<font color="red"> I propose a new rule, anyone who types "Yawn" in response to anything should be automatically suspended for three months! :D</font>

They never give you the numbers though. They never tell you just how much big business takes out vs how much the poor take out. The reason is that there'd be a revolution if they did. <font color="red"> This is not true and you know it. If all you listen to is MPR or CBS or CNN, yeah, you may never hear the real numbers!

97% of ALL TAXES come from the top 50% of all taxpayers.

85% of ALL TAXES come from the top 25% of all taxpayers.

70% of ALL TAXES come from the top 10% of taxpayers.

58% of ALL TAXES come from the top 5% of taxpayers.

You have personally known these numbers for a long time. But you continue to ignore them and spread "mistruths" about it by saying "look at what big business takes out!" Well what did they "put in" Lyle? This isn't about corruption, or even tax breaks for the wealthy no matter how much you try to mask it in those terms elsewhere. You are trying to promote socialism and those who know the difference can see right through it.


Brilliant analogy btw concerning GPA and liberal socialism...</font>






Double YAWN!

It's not my fault if you take regurgitated numbers without looking at what is really going on. They're called tax loopholes and the rich use them quite well. So, you're correct, if you look at the tax tables, instead of what really gets paid, yes, the rich are paying for it all... Putting in isn't what the tax tables say it is, it's what actually gets paid.

BTW - you're focusing on individuals, not big business. There the problems are significantly worse. No one ever talks about what business are supposed to pay and what they really pay. Go look up Microsoft or GE.




<font color="red"> "Double Yawn?" Real mature for a 47 year old man! Exactly what I expect from you though...

So come April 15th, you won't be utilizing every loop hole that you can? If that's true, you are more illogical than your posts indicate (and that boggles the mind!). If it isn't, then you are a hypocrite.You get an idea in your head, that nobody has mentioned, then go on a rant! No one said that big business is perfect Lyle! You are truly living in a movie! Just remember that when the show is over, which could be at any moment, you don't have a choice, you must exit the theater! </font>

Fill me in here. I don't get it. Obama didn't claim half the stuff he supposedly "lied" about in this caricature. I guess making up fiction and rebutting it is legitimate political discourse.



It's called "humor", James. Political humor to be exact.
Some people get it..... :D

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc184/gotcherj/obama_dictators.jpg (http://s214.photobucket.com/albums/cc184/gotcherj/?action=view&current=obama_dictators.jpg)

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc184/gotcherj/bush.jpg (http://s214.photobucket.com/albums/cc184/gotcherj/?action=view&current=bush.jpg)

If you're going to do a photo opp, at least pay attention to the details. :D
http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i176/Twoputt/obama.jpg

I have to ask, is that pic of Obama real

Of course it's real, it's on the internet isn't it.

I think it was one of those calls from Hillary, and he was just tired of holding it a foot from his ears.

The following is a must read for anyone interested in illegal immigrant discussions.

Economic impact of illegal immigrants (http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=20080326_1_A1_hThes24500)

I think that the key point made in this article is that the studies were done by impartial economists who do not take a stance on immigration reform...unlike so many of the figures that were previously quoted from overly biased sources like alipac and other hate groups.

alipac and other hate groups.


Americans for LEGAL Immigration is not a hate group.

However, any group will show numbers that benefit them. I will not argue that point. I always take that into consideration when looking at numbers any group says.

alipac and other hate groups.


Americans for LEGAL Immigration is not a hate group.

However, any group will show numbers that benefit them. I will not argue that point. I always take that into consideration when looking at numbers any group says.



Correct. It's title is Americans For Legal Immigration.. how is that a hate group?

But deathbypar is from OK... you have to consider the source.

But deathbypar is from OK... you have to consider the source.




Does this mean I'm now free to personally attack him back and suffer NO consequences?




Nah, you're not worth it!



you must have changed your mind, i may not agree with the guy on the immigration issues, but i do call the guy a friend. not sure what to call you, but i'm sure i couldn't say it on the MB.(by the way, thats stands for message board for those CA frisbeegirls that may not know) :D

Is alipac a hate group?

they hate nickelodeon (http://alisavaldesrodriguez.blogspot.com/2008/03/anti-migrant-group-alipac-calls-for.html)

The Anit Defamation League has officially name alipac to thier list of hate groups.

alipac and other hate groups.


Americans for LEGAL Immigration is not a hate group.

However, any group will show numbers that benefit them. I will not argue that point. I always take that into consideration when looking at numbers any group says.



Correct. It's title is Americans For Legal Immigration.. how is that a hate group?

But deathbypar is from OK... you have to consider the source.



Being from Texas, I find that some of our neighbors to the North darn smart.

What was the joke the Aggie told me about Californians... Oh yeah, that'd get me banned.

Having grown up in Oregon, I can tell you that the average Oregonian would tell you that not much good comes out of California. :D

ALIPAC is a hate group, nonetheless, they raise some excellent points. The business community treats labor as a commodity. Therefore, the object is to go the cheapest source of labor to fulfill your needs. ALIPAC points out that big business is doing this and that it is wrong. ALIPAC may not know the out come, and may be motivated by hate or prejudice, but their notion that big business' pursuit of this is not in America's best interests, is probably correct.

On the other hand, ALIPAC, like big business, forgets that the commodity involved, whether it is White U.S. or Brown South American, is a group of human beings. Treating humans like they are meat, or coal, or iron ore seems awful to me. Given that most of these guys, that is the ones using people in this fashion, are good Christians, one has to wonder just what part of the Bible they're reading?

Whatever your view of the this situation, if you forget that the South Americans involved are also victims, you've lessened your argument IMO.

The next president should worry about this... (http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=7d9_1206624103)

Not quite right

http://www.adl.org/Civil_Rights/anti_immigrant/print_version.pdf

actually read this, the ADL does not come out and say that ALIPAC is a racist group, only that the president of the group uses propaganda to push his cause.

But then doesn't the ADL do the same thing.

I have always felt the ADL was a racist group right up there with the KKK, La Raza and NAACP.

Words are worth a million... radio articles. I did hear on the radio that the ADL and stated that ALIPAC was a hate group. Darned news casters!

Just so ya'll know, I don't believe nor stand by 100% everything ALIPAC states, just as I don't stand behind 100% everything the PDGA states, even though I'm a member of both.

People and organizations HAVE to attack William Gheen and call him and/or his organization racist for many reasons. They hate the fact that 80% of all Americans are AGAINST ILLEGAL immigration and he's one of the few BRAVE enough to stand up for us 80% who feel the way we do.

IMO, illegal immigration has NOTHING whatsoever to do with color of skin. It has to do with commiting a felony, or not; waiting your turn in line, or not; waiting for proper documentation, or not; stealing American's identities, or not... you get my point.

But those who take advantage of cheap labor HAVE to find a way to attack back... so they can keep on lining their pockets with the sweat of ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS. I fully understand that, but still think it's absolutely WRONG. But I do get it.

The next president should worry about this... (http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=7d9_1206624103)



That is quite scary!

McCain recently said about the ILLEGALs who raped and killed those 2 girls - "Yes, we have an illegal immigration problem which needs to be addressed. But we also have to remember they are also God's children." I wonder - if those illegals raped and killed his daughters if he'd be so forgiving and calling them god's children. I tend to think.... NOT!!!! That's also very scary!

I was on the Nominations Committee for Senate District 9 of Denton Co this weekend. We interviewed around 100 people that wanted to become State Delegates to the Republican State Convention.

I would say that about 80-90 percent of them said Immigration was one of there biggest issue this year. Only 2 mentioned the Iraq war.

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc184/gotcherj/HillaryGI.jpg (http://s214.photobucket.com/albums/cc184/gotcherj/?action=view&current=HillaryGI.jpg)
The picture shows that this soldier has been through Survival School and learned his lessons well. He's giving the sign of 'coercion' with his left hand. These hand signs are taught in survival school to be used by POW's as a method of sending messages back to our intelligence services who may view the photo or video. This guy was obviously being coerced into shaking hands with Hillary Clinton. It's ironic how little she knew that he would so inform us about the photo---perhaps because she's never understood our military to begin with.

This is such a fun race.

To bad the Libertarian Party is never included in any debates. I love it when Gravel talks. Specially when he talks about Obama and Hillary.

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This is such a fun race.




Daily giggles...

"Operation Chaos" is in it's third week and running stronger than ever! The dems fighting would have been over three weeks ago if it weren't for Rush. There is only one thing more amazing than the booty kissing going on from the "drive-by-media" towards Obama. That is, the complete denial from the mainstream media as to the real reason why the dems are still fighting. Every time you see the dems fight, you have one man to thank! Although most uninformed would rather suck rocks then admit Rush was right about anything, the facts are undeniable. Everyday is just more and more proof of it's effectiveness. Brilliantly hilarious!!!

The dems are finally getting a taste of their own medicine for a change and in many more ways than just someone else picking their candidate for them! It's McCains to loose if you ask me, especially if "the most cheated on woman in history" and the "media's darling rookie" keep ripping each other up on a daily basis. Sadly, even though I am not for McCain, only by default, it's possible for him to blow it inspite of being handed every possible advantage. Spending more time as a POW then we have been in Iraq may have made McCain a man of principle, but it sure didn't make him understand how to strike while the iron is hot. He is sitting on a golden ticket of leadership right now and he's affraid to cash it in for fear of loosing the liberal and gutless independent vote. He claims to be a "Reagan Rep," but the evidence screams otherwise. Sorry Nancy, but thanks for the endorsment anyways!

Thats my hot sports opinion for the day! :D

Why it is hard to stand behind McCain

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Why it is hard to stand behind McCain




Bad gas?

the link didn't work for me.