Hero - insert key and wind - watch Za gooooooooo!

I would argue that Ron Paul is the first Presidential candidate to really understand foreign policy since maybe Roosevelt, possibly earlier. We're stuck in a testosterone (and I include Hillary in this) driven desire to influence the world through force.

Who was the last President we had that understood that you influence the world by setting the best example? Maybe Wilson?

y'all are still yapping about Ron Paul? Hasn't he packed it in yet?

in the summer of 87, I lived in an apartment for the first time. I was only needing a place to stay for 3 months so I found a room mate via the campus roommate kiosk.

I wound up living with Omar, a student from Jordan. He told me about being kicked out of his home in what is now the Gaza Strip in 1967. All he remembers is Israeli Military men with machine guns telling them they had to leave. His family fled to Jordan where luckily they were able to immigrate.

I did research on the subject back then to understand his point of view.

This is where I realized what the conflict between Palestinians and Israelis was all about. It is also where I realized why Palestinians attacked Israel and countries that support them.

Then we attacked Iraq and pushed Saddam out of Kuwait. At the time I wondered why we did it. I was against the idea, but did not voice my opinion. Even back then I felt we might regret it some day, I just didn't know why.

Then I basically ignored what we where doing overseas for years, until September 11, 2001. That is one day I will never forget. I had to understand why someone would do something like that. Before then, most every Terrorist attack had been against our military or Embassies.

It was not until Usama bin Laden released his video tape explaining why he choose the twin towers and his reasons he did it did I truly understand that our Foreign Policy needed to change.

Now I am a small government guy. I don't want the government to run my life. Part of that view is that I don't want our government to run others lives either. This includes other countries. They have a right to govern themselves.

I always remember a quote from an Iraqi farmer that an American Journalist got during our invasion of Iraq. The journalist asked the farmer ''what kind of government do you want''

His answer ''Arab''

again, the Journalist asked the question, ''no, I mean what type of government do you want''

His answer again ''Arab''

He did not care if it was democratic, monarchy or dictator, he just knew he did not want to be ruled by Americans.

y'all are still yapping about Ron Paul? Hasn't he packed it in yet?



He has more cash on hand than every ''Top Tier'' candidate, except maybe Romney who keep adding his own money.

Rudy and Thompson are both behind Ron Paul in the total number of votes.

Thompson has stated if he does not do well in South Carolina, he will withdraw.

Rudy is waiting for Florida.

This will be a brokered convention, Lincoln and Eisenhower both were selected in this process, neither got the popular vote in the primaries. This is what we are working for. There are a lot of Republicans who like Ron Paul, they just don't think he is electable. We are working to prove them wrong.

Voting for him in the primaries really helps show he has support.

Let me interject a little "testosterone driven influence led by force"! Not to mention common sense! Between Lyle's man crush on hero, and his and Pizza gods pillow fight concerning "the war" I almost lost my breakfast. We invaded a country who's leaders protect and support terrorists! Your missing the big picture here, THEY HATE YOU AND WANT YOU DEAD, AND WILL NOT QUIT UNTIL YOU ARE DEAD, OR THEY ARE FROM TRYING. No amount of "setting the right example" is gonna stop that.

No amount of "listening to tapes" is going to change THERE SOLE PURPOSE IN LIFE, TO KILL YOU! Just because you don't daily recognize that as a thriving American doesn't mean it isn't true. I swear, I thought you were about to say that we needed to listen to Bin Ladens feelings! As goofy and fumble proned as Bush has been, THANK GOD for a president who's more interested in showing his sack rather than getting into the sack. Theres your fuel for the day, misinterpret, mis quote, and put words in my mouth that I didn't say, it won't be anything new, just don't try to convince people that "talking and compromising with terrorists" is gonna change anything. How many decades of listening to there lies do you need? They aren't like you, in theory, they don't listen to reason. They want to destroy you!

Some people genuinly hate, but the majority of people who hate, do so because they want to be you! Lyle, Pizza? I love you! :D

http://img5.glowfoto.com/images/2008/01/17-1027587174T.gif (http://www.glowfoto.com/viewimage.php?img=17-102758L&y=2008&m=01&t=gif&rand=7174&srv=img5)

Let me interject a little "testosterone driven influence led by force"! Not to mention common sense! Between Lyle's man crush on hero, and his and Pizza gods pillow fight concerning "the war" I almost lost my breakfast. We invaded a country who's leaders protect and support terrorists! Your missing the big picture here, THEY HATE YOU AND WANT YOU DEAD, AND WILL NOT QUIT UNTIL YOU ARE DEAD, OR THEY ARE FROM TRYING. No amount of "setting the right example" is gonna stop that.

No amount of "listening to tapes" is going to change THERE SOLE PURPOSE IN LIFE, TO KILL YOU! Just because you don't daily recognize that as a thriving American doesn't mean it isn't true. I swear, I thought you were about to say that we needed to listen to Bin Ladens feelings! As goofy and fumble proned as Bush has been, THANK GOD for a president who's more interested in showing his sack rather than getting into the sack. Theres your fuel for the day, misinterpret, mis quote, and put words in my mouth that I didn't say, it won't be anything new, just don't try to convince people that "talking and compromising with terrorists" is gonna change anything. How many decades of listening to there lies do you need? They aren't like you, in theory, they don't listen to reason. They want to destroy you!

Some people genuinly hate, but the majority of people who hate, do so because they want to be you! Lyle, Pizza? I love you! :D

http://img5.glowfoto.com/images/2008/01/17-1027587174T.gif (http://www.glowfoto.com/viewimage.php?img=17-102758L&y=2008&m=01&t=gif&rand=7174&srv=img5)


i can't tell if this post is serious or is just mocking those that suscribe to that twisted logic.

reality: we now have many more terrorist enemies than we did before our invasion of the sovereign nation of iraq. these enemies are more geographically dispersed than they were before the war. these enemies are patient. not only are they undeterred by our big, bad displays of force, but their resolved is strengthened.

george w. bush and his puppet masters have made the world, and this country in particular, much LESS safe.

. . . more will be revealed.

THEY HATE YOU AND WANT YOU DEAD, AND WILL NOT QUIT UNTIL YOU ARE DEAD, OR THEY ARE FROM TRYING.



Please show me this. Every time we are attacked the terrorist that claim responsibility give the reasons for the attack. In those statements, they NEVER say it is because we are free, they say it was because THEY WANT TO BE FREE.

They point to our actions like
Support for the Shaw of Iran
Support of Israel
Troops in Lebanon
Troops in Saudi Arabia
Support of the King of Saudi Arabia
Bombing of Iraq
Toppling of Afganistan Government
Support of Dictator in Pakistan

The easiest person to quote on this is Usama bin Laden

However even former PM of Pakistan, Bhutto stated less than a month ago that our support of Musharraf is causing problems in Pakistan.

Prince Alwaleed bin Talal bin Abdul Aziz Alsaud the 6th richest person in the world tried to donate 10million buck to the Twin Tower fund. He denounced terrorism in a statement, but stated that our Foreign policies in the Middle East cause attacks like this. Rudy, being stupid, returned the money instead of giving it to the survivors on principle. This, and other statements and actions have shown me he is NOT the candidate to have as president. This is one reason I want to be a delegate, to try to block Rudy for president. [however, in the May 07 debate, Rudy said he has never heard of such a thing. Rudy is a lier]

Let me interject a little "testosterone driven influence led by force"! Not to mention common sense! Between Lyle's man crush on hero, and his and Pizza gods pillow fight concerning "the war" I almost lost my breakfast. We invaded a country who's leaders protect and support terrorists! Your missing the big picture here, THEY HATE YOU AND WANT YOU DEAD, AND WILL NOT QUIT UNTIL YOU ARE DEAD, OR THEY ARE FROM TRYING. No amount of "setting the right example" is gonna stop that.

No amount of "listening to tapes" is going to change THERE SOLE PURPOSE IN LIFE, TO KILL YOU! Just because you don't daily recognize that as a thriving American doesn't mean it isn't true. I swear, I thought you were about to say that we needed to listen to Bin Ladens feelings! As goofy and fumble proned as Bush has been, THANK GOD for a president who's more interested in showing his sack rather than getting into the sack. Theres your fuel for the day, misinterpret, mis quote, and put words in my mouth that I didn't say, it won't be anything new, just don't try to convince people that "talking and compromising with terrorists" is gonna change anything. How many decades of listening to there lies do you need? They aren't like you, in theory, they don't listen to reason. They want to destroy you!

Some people genuinly hate, but the majority of people who hate, do so because they want to be you! Lyle, Pizza? I love you! :D

http://img5.glowfoto.com/images/2008/01/17-1027587174T.gif (http://www.glowfoto.com/viewimage.php?img=17-102758L&y=2008&m=01&t=gif&rand=7174&srv=img5)

Now this was funny. See, I knew you could do it if you tried!

Think it's "David", not sure, but his last name is Dire, he's the bald, guru, motovational type speaker that promotes PBS while hawk'n his tapes/books. Pretty interesting stuff actually. But anyway, he tells the story of a guy play'n "wack-a-mole" with the dandy-lion weeds (sp) in his yard to kill them. Well obviously, this just makes the problem worse because with every swing of his "big bad" flat-head shovel, the blooming pods from the weed just go flying across the yard, planting seeds and making it worse. He apply's this thought to the area of raising your fist in anger or going to war, (with no reguard to WHY you'd raise your fist, or the real reasons for making the HARD CHOICE to go to war). On the surface, it seems to make sense, because like that weed, smacking it only makes the problem worse. But! My point?































THAT'S A PLANT!!! NOT A SOVERIEGN NATION WHERE THE NUT JOB LEADERS WANT YOU DEAD, AND YOUR WAY, EVEN YOUR COMPROMISED WAYS OF LIFE, DEAD!

We declared jihad against the US government, because the US government is unjust, criminal and tyrannical. It has committed acts that are extremely unjust, hideous and criminal whether directly or through its support of the Israeli occupation." - Osama bin Laden - to CNN in March 1997




A reaction might take place as a result of the US government's hitting Muslim civilians and executing more than 600,000 Muslim children in Iraq by preventing food and medicine from reaching them. So, the US is responsible for any reaction, because it extended its war against troops to civilians.
Osama bin Laden
CNN interview 1997




God knows it did not cross our minds to attack the towers but after the situation became unbearable and we witnessed the injustice and tyranny of the American-Israeli alliance against our people in Palestine and Lebanon, I thought about it. And the events that affected me directly were that of 1982 and the events that followed -- when America allowed the Israelis to invade Lebanon, helped by the U.S. Sixth Fleet. As I watched the destroyed towers in Lebanon, it occurred to me punish the unjust the same way (and) to destroy towers in America so it could taste some of what we are tasting and to stop killing our children and women.
Osama bin Laden 2004 al-Jazeera




If the American government is serious about avoiding explosions inside the U.S., then let it stop provoking the feelings of 1,250 million Muslims.
Osama bin Laden
CNN interview 1997




To kill the Americans and their allies -- civilians and military -- is an individual duty for every Muslim who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it, in order to liberate the al-Aqsa Mosque [Jerusalem] and the holy mosque [Mecca] from their grip, and in order for their armies to move out of all the lands of Islam, defeated and unable to threaten any Muslim.
Osama bin Laden
In Fatwa entitled Jihad Against Jews and Crusaders World Islamic Front Statement, February 28, 1998




We believe that the biggest thieves in the world are Americans and the biggest terrorists on earth are the Americans.
Osama bin Laden
On ABC's Nightline, June 10, 1998




We, God willing, will continue to fight you and will continue martyrdom operations inside and outside the United States until you abandon your oppression and foolish acts.
Osama bin Laden
Demanding US withdraw from Iraq, in audiotape broadcast on Al Jazeera, October 18 2003




Your security is not in the hands of [Democratic presidential candidate John] Kerry or Bush or al Qaeda. Your security is in your own hands and each state which does not harm our security will remain safe.
Osama bin Laden
On videotape shown on Al Jazeera, October 29, 2004




your Christian brothers have been living among us for 14 centuries: in Egypt alone, there are millions of Christians whom we have not incinerated and shall not incinerate. But the fact is, there is a continuing and biased campaign being waged against us for a long time now by your politicians and many of your writers by way of your media, especially Hollywood, for the purpose of misrepresenting Islam..........

However, there are two solutions for stopping it. The first is from our side, and it is to continue to escalate the killing and fighting against you. This is our duty, and our brothers are carrying it out, and I ask Allah to grant them resolve and victory. And the second solution is from your side. It has now become clear to you and the entire world the impotence of the democratic system and how it plays with the interests of the peoples and their blood by sacrificing soldiers and populations to achieve the interests of the major corporations

And with that, it has become clear to all that they are the real tyrannical terrorists. In fact, the life of all of mankind is in danger because of the global warming resulting to a large degree from the emissions of the factories of the major corporations, yet despite that, the representative of these corporations in the White House insists on not observing the Kyoto accord, with the knowledge that the statistic speaks of the death and displacement of the millions of human beings because of that, especially in Africa. This greatest of plagues and most dangerous of threats to the lives of humans is taking place in an accelerating fashion as the world is being dominated by the democratic system, which confirms its massive failure to protect humans and their interests from the greed and avarice of the major corporations and their representatives.

And despite this brazen attack on the people, the leaders of the West - especially Bush, Blair, Sarkozy and Brown- still talk about freedom and human rights with a flagrant disregard for the intellects of human beings. So is there a form of terrorism stronger, clearer and more dangerous than this? This is why I tell you: as you liberated yourselves before from the slavery of monks, kings, and feudalism, you should liberate yourselves from the deception, shackles and attrition of the capitalist system.
bin Laden 9/7/07 address to the American people




The last quote tells it all. Usama bin Laden is telling us that we need to change our government, we need to stop messing with the Middle East to end terrorism. He has stated several times that his terrorism would stop if we pulled out of the Middle East. They are at war with us because we are over there, we have troops based on there land. As long as we continue to do this, we will have terrorist problems.

If you're not even going to take the time to spend 15 minutes doing research on the long term relationships between those countries and America, to see that we've continually supported brutal military dictatorships that suppressed the people in those countries, and that fundamental, religious militancy grew as a response to the Shah of Iran, a dictator that the CIA put in place, well, what can I say.

BTW - you at least realize that we trained Osama, funded and sponsored the gopher head you're showing, and supported him when he gassed the Kurds, right?

What's not to love about us? BTW -it's not the leaders of those countries who hate us for the most part (with the exception of the leader of Iran). Most of them love us, carefully. We put them in power and made them rich. It's their people, whom they've repressed and dominated who hate us.

And of course you realize that Iran is where it is today because we... invaded Iraq and destroyed the stabilizing influence they played on the region by countering Iran. Can you say we're a bunch of knuckleheads. Well O.K. Bush, Cheney, Rummy and their cronies are anyway.

[/QUOTE]

The last quote tells it all. Usama bin Laden is telling us that we need to change our government, we need to stop messing with the Middle East to end terrorism. He has stated several times that his terrorism would stop if we pulled out of the Middle East. They are at war with us because we are over there, we have troops based on there land. As long as we continue to do this, we will have terrorist problems.

[/QUOTE]

and you believe him? Because he's so trustworthy huh? That is, if he's even alive! lol Listening to what they have to say is one thing, and needs to be done, but gimme a break! If you believe that, I got swampland I'd like to sell you! You could put a disc golf course on it!

Yeah, the people in Northern Iraq running around in Nike's hate us! They can't stand the fact that for the first time in there life they have at least a taste of freedom from Saddam. Turn off CNN for a day, it does a mind good!

Yeah, the people in Northern Iraq running around in Nike's hate us! They can't stand the fact that for the first time in there life they have at least a taste of freedom from Saddam. Turn off CNN for a day, it does a mind good!



Actually, the Kurds are currently ambivalent about us. Recently we O.K.ed a Pakistani incursion into Northern Iraq, one the Kurds did not like. It is not unlikely that Kurdish freedom fighters may decide that American troops are fair game.

Not understanding the world you live in is very dangerous. Not understanding the people who live in a region, what motivates them, and how they respond before you start a war in that region is stupidity beyond belief. There is a reason why every country that has ever started on a conquest of this area has lost.

actually your analogy is pretty good.


THAT'S A PLANT!!! NOT A SOVERIEGN NATION WHERE THE NUT JOB LEADERS WANT YOU DEAD, AND YOUR WAY, EVEN YOUR COMPROMISED WAYS OF LIFE, DEAD!



Please tell me how Saddam was a threat to us.

Oh, was it because he was going to trade Oil in Euro's...........

He had no Navy, no Air Force, and an Army that was a shadow of what it once was.

Do you not think that Saudi Arabia and Iran could have taken care of him. They had kept him in check for years already.

ohh, he sponsored Terrorism...... Ok, he had one guy we wanted for terrorist activity living in Baghdad.

He also gave money to Palestinian families of suicide bombers. But this was not our problem, Israel should be dealing with them. Israel took out Saddams Nuclear plant in the 1980's, it was condemed by most of the world, except Ron Paul who said it was Israels business if they felt threat from Saddam.

Yer right, he was a sweetie!

and you believe him? Because he's so trustworthy huh? That is, if he's even alive! lol Listening to what they have to say is one thing, and needs to be done, but gimme a break! If you believe that, I got swampland I'd like to sell you! You could put a disc golf course on it!



It is not a matter of him being trustworthy or not. It is a matter of UNDERSTANDING his motives. This is what I am trying to get across to you.

Even if we pull our troops out of the Middle East and Iraq, we will still search for bin Laden. We will continue to search down and destroy terrorists under a Ron Paul presidency, and we need to.

This is one of the lies the media keeps telling about Ron Paul. He voted to go into Afganistan to get bin Laden, not take over the country and let bin Laden go free. Even to this day, Ron Paul has stated we need to work on getting bin Laden.

Yer right, he was a sweetie!



No, he wasn't a sweetie but compared to some of our allies he was minor. That's the problem. He was a very - small - problem. Now, the guys who we support are going to turn out to be much bigger problems, Pakistan for example. A country that is suffering huge disruptions who by the way, has nucular bombs! Yet they're our buds!

Your President can't afford to be an idiot. There's a reason why Bush I wrote in his memoirs that going to war in Iraq would have been a mistake. He actually had a brain.

It's too bad Bush II blew his brains out with white powder and alcohol in his youthful days.

Actually, in the game of politics, today's allies are tomorrow's enemies. It is more a game of give and take and extreme bargaining, stategies, manuevering, and spin.

Believe what you will, Iraq, Iran USA, France, England, Russia . . . no one country is a saint . . . no one country is THE Axis of Evil. There is dirt under everyone's skirt and skeletons in every closet. The essential rules and goals of the game of world politics are not much different than local politics, except more extreme.

Oh, and if asked why I like living in America. I will answer that I can still start a post out like I did. Free speech is one of the best freedoms we have, next to freedom to think for ourselves!

Typical lib remark. Yeah, it's our fault they're radical Islam! It's not them, they were just fine before the "evil Bush" came along. If it weren't for Bush they'd be a thriving, loving, giving, techno-advancing, shining "EXAMPLE" of how to run a country huh? I got problems with W, who doesn't, but continuously putting his foot down and actually DOING something, rather than passively saying "lets talk about it" for votes, is the only way. Negotiating (sp) with terrorists and there supporters who've lied consistently FOR DECADES makes about as much sense as arguing what your definition of "is" is. Remember that glittering jewel in American presidency (Der-shclick-meister)? I pray our country NEVER gives up the fight against these scumbags for the sake of political gain. BTW, why would you question my love for you? Have I given up on you? Even when I said I would? lol

was referring to lyle, not you laura! ya slipped that in before I clicked enter! lol

It's too bad Bush II blew his brains out with white powder and alcohol in his youthful days.

Actually, in the game of politics, today's allies are tomorrow's enemies. It is more a game of give and take and extreme bargaining, stategies, manuevering, and spin.

Believe what you will, Iraq, Iran USA, France, England, Russia . . . no one country is a saint . . . no one country is THE Axis of Evil. There is dirt under everyone's skirt and skeletons in every closet. The essential rules and goals of the game of world politics are not much different than local politics, except more extreme.

Oh, and if asked why I like living in America. I will answer that I can still start a post out like I did. Free speech is one of the best freedoms we have, next to freedom to think for ourselves!



hate it when I get dirt up my skirt! :D

I know you were replying to Lyle, Dave. No problems, even if you do think similar thoughts toward me.

BTW, I will let it be known that at this point I am the undisputed farthest to the left liberal Democrat on this board.
Most remarks labeled as "typical" liberal or conservative or Democratic or Republican remarks, are actually just remarks made by people that don't think before they "remark". Others are made simply in attempt to get others to react before thinking.

When I first got involved in politics, Daddy used to say to me, "why don't you take up a more honorable and honest hobby, like selling used cars?" -- no offense to used car salespeople, but they do have a reputation of being about a truthful as a politician.

BTW, I believe someone (sorry, I don't remember right off who it was) said upthread that we should wait and try discussing matters before starting wars. The last US President to come close to doing that was slammed as being the worst foreign policies president. I personally think he was our last honest president, perhaps one of the only. Anyone care to guess to whom I a referencing? As an added reference, he was the first to really make use of his office to make more of a global difference after office than during. In my opinion, he was the best president during my lifetime.

Agreed. He was a great man brought down by [censored] times.

but continuously putting his foot down and actually DOING something, rather than passively saying "lets talk about it" for votes, is the only way.


Action is great, WHEN IT'S POSITIVE!!!

The vast majority of W's actions have caused this country and the world great harm in the long run.

Would you say that spraying gasoline on a burning building is a positive action?

So let me ask a self professed flamming lib, at what point, I'm being serious (believe it or not! ) after how many decades of lying and backstabbing, not just "seeing things dif. than you", after being uncovered as a fraud, time after time, and showing yourself to be nothing more than a backstabbing, murderous, totalitarian dictator who's existence is to kill you and support those who feel the same way, on and on... at what point do you say, "yeah, it's time to take preventative action before this psycho get's to me? I'd love to know that. When a mad dog is running at you and he is going to rip you to shreads, I can promise you "talk is cheap." I see no difference between that mad dog and someone who's purpose in life, that's no exageration, is to kill you. At what point is it enough? When is it ok to say, I'm gonna get killed if I don't take action?

BTW, I will let it be known that at this point I am the undisputed farthest to the left liberal Democrat on this board.



I remember well!
http://img4.glowfoto.com/images/2008/01/17-1952328188T.jpg (http://www.glowfoto.com/viewimage.php?img=17-195232L&y=2008&m=01&t=jpg&rand=8188&srv=img4)
But love you and Don anyways! :D

Well you can now call me Precinct Chairman Pizza God.

I was sworn in tonight at the Denton Co. Republican meeting. I ran unopposed in a precinct that was vacant. I was appointed to fill in the position.

I also met lady that runs a group that calls themselves ''Constitutional Republicans'' They meet next on Feb 11th. I plan on being there.

is someone that advises you, helping run your campaign.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EdGUSjd3Tmo
[linked instead of embedded]

The end is the best part, I thought Romney was going to deck the guy. Then his campaign guy starts in on him and the lady at the end was classic. :D

congrats, Bryan. Precint chairman is where the fun begins.

they were great discs...made with some a plastic blend that was grippy and flew perfect. Some of my Republican friends bought them and bleached them, still flew great.

Actually, in those primaries, I supported Gen Wesley Clark.

So let me ask a self professed flamming lib, at what point, I'm being serious (believe it or not! ) after how many decades of lying and backstabbing, not just "seeing things dif. than you", after being uncovered as a fraud, time after time, and showing yourself to be nothing more than a backstabbing, murderous, totalitarian dictator who's existence is to kill you and support those who feel the same way, on and on... at what point do you say, "yeah, it's time to take preventative action before this psycho get's to me? I'd love to know that. When a mad dog is running at you and he is going to rip you to shreads, I can promise you "talk is cheap." I see no difference between that mad dog and someone who's purpose in life, that's no exageration, is to kill you. At what point is it enough? When is it ok to say, I'm gonna get killed if I don't take action?




Wow.

they were great discs...made with some a plastic blend that was grippy and flew perfect. Some of my Republican friends bought them and bleached them, still flew great.

Actually, in those primaries, I supported Gen Wesley Clark.


I still have about 4 of them!

[/QUOTE]


Wow.

[/QUOTE]
exactly

So, as the self-professed flaming liberal, I am replying to your earlier post that I find difficult to believe is really serious.
I believe preventative action has been taken for a very long time. I do not think you or I know everything that is going on within our military and within our intelligence organizations. It is difficult to fight dictators or any other government that has the same leader for lengths of time with our government that changes administrations every 8 or so years. In an earlier post, I alluded to the fact that every move in politics is done as part of a strategy. Going to Iraq was a mistake. Most everyone will admit that. If this is what you are referring to, I don't understand how or why you would still think it was a good idea to invade Iraq. We all know there were no "weapons of mass destruction there" and in during his final days Sadaam admitted that he had lied about them being there to throw Iran off of him. Acting more powerful than they actually were, was the downfall of his regime, well one of many of their downfalls.
Talk is cheap. On that you are correct. Action is important. However, most important is well thought-out strategic humane action that is forward thinking.
If, in all reality, someone wants to kill you badly enough, I believe there is no preventing it, nothing to do but pray to the god you believe in to help you deal with it. Many actions had been taken in the previous administrations to prevent terrorist attacks, as many actions are being taken during this administration and many actions will be taken during the coming administrations. However, I do not think what happened on September 11th was the last attack we will ever have.
As far as the "mad dog" is concerned, I will direct you to Cesar Millan.

I do not think what happened on September 11th was the last attack we will ever have.



I agree. As 04/19/95 showed no one can guarantee who the attackers will be. I think this gets lost in the rhetoric that folks like Dave ramble on about.

There are plenty more scary people out there who aren't Muslim or Middle Eastern.

So let me ask a self professed flamming lib, at what point, I'm being serious (believe it or not! ) after how many decades of lying and backstabbing, not just "seeing things dif. than you", after being uncovered as a fraud, time after time, and showing yourself to be nothing more than a backstabbing, murderous, totalitarian dictator who's existence is to kill you and support those who feel the same way, on and on... at what point do you say, "yeah, it's time to take preventative action before this psycho get's to me? I'd love to know that. When a mad dog is running at you and he is going to rip you to shreads, I can promise you "talk is cheap." I see no difference between that mad dog and someone who's purpose in life, that's no exageration, is to kill you. At what point is it enough? When is it ok to say, I'm gonna get killed if I don't take action?



Do you always think this was their purpose in life?

Do you know what the ratio of Palestinian civilian deaths to Israeli civilian deaths is?

Do you know how many civilians we've killed (in military actions) in the Middle East compared to what the terrorists have killed?

Do you know what the percentage of the Muslim world takes part in terrorist activities vs. those that are peaceful? Do you know what percentage we treat as if they are terrorist vs. the percentage that is actually involved in terrorism?

People aren't born mad dogs. They get made into mad dogs. It takes neglect and aggression on a level that is almost diligent to make them so. Up until about 40 years ago, America was greatly admired in the Middle East. If you buy a dog, beat and abuse it daily, and the dog attacks and kills your child, is the dog at fault, or are you?

Only a fool thinks that any human being hates freedom. Middle Easterners don't envy us our freedom, they hate is because we've played a key role in denying them theirs...

BTW - these conclusions aren't ones I drew, they are ones the CIA drew in studying the current conflict in the Middle East. In our name, our government has allowed and supported horrible actions in the Middle East. Is it any wonder that they now act so violently towards us? Pointing out that they act like mad dogs because of this is hardly important. Realizing that continuing to pursue the same activities that made them the way they are, is.

I do not think what happened on September 11th was the last attack we will ever have.



I agree. As 04/19/95 showed no one can guarantee who the attackers will be. I think this gets lost in the rhetoric that folks like Dave ramble on about.

There are plenty more scary people out there who aren't Muslim or Middle Eastern.



Hear Hear!

You guys just keep underestimating how much destruction "Sodamn Insane" caused in his pathetic life. It always amazes me how people who say they are for peace, can't find the logic in eliminating someone like Saddam. He killed nearly a MILLION of his own peeps for cryin' out loud. As tragic as it is, the loss of our brave soldiers thus far has prevented the death of tens of thousands of lives. Which, IMO, is worth the cost we're paying now in a faulty exit stagedy. It really comes down to which you think is worse, what we're going through now, or what we would have most certainly gone through by sitting on our hands, cause talking wasn't doing anything.

I didn't say invasion because of WMD's is why it was right. I am saying it was right to eliminate a brutal dictator like Saddam WHEN WE DID. I did think at the time, just like most people, that WMD's was the purpose, he fooled even our military. By cancelling MANY weapons inspections by the UN (not just US) he did a good job making us believe that the "dual-use" factories had already produced them. And don't forget how he violated nearly 20 UN (not US!) security resolutions. I don't have a big "W" tattoo on my arm, but put your anti-bush flag down for a minute and do the math. It doesn't add up! Do you really think it was going to stop! He forced the hand he was dealt by not complying to human decency and protecting those who kill.

The marginalizing (sp) of the radical Islamic threat IS the reason why it won't be the last time our borders are crossed. All the more reason to elect someone who takes the protection of our borders seriously...

Geee, I hope next time we decide to stop someone like "Sodamn Insane" he gives us time to come up with a better plan! One that is bloodless, done overnight, and everyone will love America more!

/msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

http://img5.glowfoto.com/images/2008/01/19-1330383010T.jpg (http://www.glowfoto.com/viewimage.php?img=19-133038L&y=2008&m=01&t=jpg&rand=3010&srv=img5)

Mike Huckabe (http://www.spectator.org/dsp_article.asp?art_id=12611)
Rudy Giuliani (http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/01/11/top-giuliani-staffers-to-go-without-pay/)
Fred Thompson broke and quit today (http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2008/01/22/thompson-quits.html)
John McCain has to borrrow money to keep going (http://blog.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2008/01/09/mccain_win_fuels_influx_of_fun.html)

Mitt Romney's 1 million (http://www.boston.com/news/globe/city_region/breaking_news/2007/01/romney_fundrais_2.html)

Oh yea, Ron Paul raised 1.85 million yesterday without making a single call.

at the end of Sept 07, Romney's campaign was over 8 million in debt (http://www.opensecrets.org/pres08/summary.asp?id=N00000286)

Romney does not even know how much money he put in his campaign in the 4th quarter. (http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalradar/2008/01/romneys-million.html)

Dennis Kucinich has caused congress to be in an uproar today. I hav e not tried to look it up yet, just heard it on the radio, he called Bush and Chaney liers that caused 4000 deaths on the floor.

yet another article on broke candidates [EXCEPT RON PAUL AND Romney] (http://youdecide08.foxnews.com/2008/01/23/high-hopes-but-limited-funds-add-challenge-to-presidential-bids/)

This is why we need change

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BTW, this video is a little strong. If you love the war on Iraq and love Bush, this is not a video for you to watch. This video shows you why a majority of Americans do not approve of bush and why Kucinich wants to Impeach him.

Have you watched the movie Obsession?

It really changed my views of the war. I used to think there were just a few crazy terrorists, but this movie points out how Muslims raise their kids to hate &amp; fight for their god and they are spreading themselves out all over the world; kind of sounds like they're setting up for the next step. I do not keep informed on worldly matters like I probably should, but I am convinced that most Muslims are brainwashed &amp; that we are only helping them set up for their next attack. We need to look to our own borders &amp; get our soldiers out of Iraq.

I got on this thread to get some input as to who should get my vote for president. Which candidate is going to lead our country in a better direction?

Does anyone think that Bush &amp; Cheney actually provoked the 9/11 attack and the war? If that's true, I can't believe I voted for him. I vote because I want to make a difference, so this time, I've decided to make a more informed decision before voting. Any feedback on the candidates would be great.

If the movie "Obsession" was about Ron Paul, Bryan has watched it. ;)

Have you watched the movie Obsession?

It really changed my views of the war. I used to think there were just a few crazy terrorists, but this movie points out how Muslims raise their kids to hate &amp; fight for their god and they are spreading themselves out all over the world; kind of sounds like they're setting up for the next step. I do not keep informed on worldly matters like I probably should, but I am convinced that most Muslims are brainwashed &amp; that we are only helping them set up for their next attack. We need to look to our own borders &amp; get our soldiers out of Iraq.

I got on this thread to get some input as to who should get my vote for president. Which candidate is going to lead our country in a better direction?

Does anyone think that Bush &amp; Cheney actually provoked the 9/11 attack and the war? If that's true, I can't believe I voted for him. I vote because I want to make a difference, so this time, I've decided to make a more informed decision before voting. Any feedback on the candidates would be great.



Bryan will be with you shortly... :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbkNxYaULBw

awesome!

If the movie "Obsession" was about Ron Paul, Bryan has watched it. ;)



ha ha :p

I have not watched it, but just because you mentioned it, I will try tomorrow.

now as far as who to vote for

:D





Do your own research, the pickings are getting pretty slim. All I ask is that you learn about Ron Paul before you make up your mind.

I don't blame Bush for 9/11, in fact you can't really blame it on one president. You can only blame it on a bad foriegh policy. We have been messing around with the Middle East for nearly 100 years. That is several generations of hate building up.

I do think Bush has been lucky that no other terrorist attacks have happened on our soil. That actually supprises me, but I will not change the way I do things. I will not give up my freedoms or liberties so that the terrorists win.

If you give up your freedoms for security, you get niether.

O.K. Player, here it is, this is a short piece on tax advantages taken by the rich. It gives numbers and some names.

http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/01182008/watch.html

Ok....um.....what's your point?

Did you watch it?

I seem to recall a discussion that centered around the concept that it is not the poor who are taking advantage of our taxes, but rather the rich, who constantly complain about the welfare state. This piece shows that the biggest recipients of tax dollars are the very richest.

What it tells us is that you and I (the middle class) are footing the bill. The rich take and get richer, the poor, who at least have a reason to take, get some dregs that are left over, and we, well, we got hosed. Watch the piece - you'll especially love the part where the writer tells you that Clinton gave more to the rich than Bush did (Clinton cut their taxes by 8%, Bush only gave them a 5% cut). Yet one more good reason why we should not vote for Hillary, that has nothing to do with the way she looks...

As an American, I don't like what either party offers us. They've done such a good job of painting themselves into dominant positions that are defined, not by reality, but by what they know we fear and desire, that we never stop to ask if there is any difference between the two. The Democrats haven't treated us a whole lot better than than Republicans. Alternatively, the Republicans haven't treated us a whole lot better than the Democrats. Each is owned lock and stock by money. While I disagree with much of Ron Paul's message, I strongly agree with the fact that he'd stop that in a hurry.

Did you watch it?

I seem to recall a discussion that centered around the concept that it is not the poor who are taking advantage of our taxes, but rather the rich, who constantly complain about the welfare state. This piece shows that the biggest recipients of tax dollars are the very richest.

What it tells us is that you and I (the middle class) are footing the bill. The rich take and get richer, the poor, who at least have a reason to take, get some dregs that are left over, and we, well, we got hosed. Watch the piece - you'll especially love the part where the writer tells you that Clinton gave more to the rich than Bush did (Clinton cut their taxes by 8%, Bush only gave them a 5% cut). Yet one more good reason why we should not vote for Hillary, that has nothing to do with the way she looks...

As an American, I don't like what either party offers us. They've done such a good job of painting themselves into dominant positions that are defined, not by reality, but by what they know we fear and desire, that we never stop to ask if there is any difference between the two. The Democrats haven't treated us a whole lot better than than Republicans. Alternatively, the Republicans haven't treated us a whole lot better than the Democrats. Each is owned lock and stock by money. While I disagree with much of Ron Paul's message, I strongly agree with the fact that he'd stop that in a hurry.



Yes I watched it... Unfortunately I have more time then work right now until St. Louis "thaws out!".

Your "recollection" couldn't be more off! The previous discussion at least on my part centered around the concept of "who pays what," never once did I even come close to saying that the rich don't manipulate the system to there own gain. QUESTION LYLE: HAVE YOU EVER MET SOMEONE WHO DIDN'T? Please answer that?!

The whole point I was making is WHO PAYS WHAT. Several people chimed in and read into what I said, but I never said the rich don't "get away with" anything. It get's a little old being misquoted Lyle. One guy even "sidded" with someone else who misquoted me! I didn't even bother to correct him, it gets old. Ya say what ya mean and it still gets twisted around!

BTW, you don't know what "class" I'm in. Statistically, I'm not in the "middle class" as you assumed. What financial "class" I am in (or why /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif) has nothing to do with this. I don't mean to sound combative, a lesson I've recently learned on this message board, but dude, you just keep misquoting me! I think there is a distinct possibility that you are actively looking for people to disagree with and argure with on this message board, no matter the topic. I'll debate with ya til the day is done, but dont manufacture an arguement that isn't there! It's draining to correct your misquotes and assumptions.

If you go back to the thread that this relates to, the "who pays taxes" thread, you'll be able to read everything I said about it in about three minutes! My point then was clear, that the overwhelming majority of all taxes are paid by the rich. ONLY ABOUT 3% OF ALL TAXES COME FROM THE BOTTOM 50%. Statistically, the rich pay the bill in America. The whole "to him who has been given much" argument is irrelevent to the point I made.

Good on ya Lyle. But man, your way off!

Who Pays Income Taxes? See Who Pays What

For Tax Year 2005

Percentiles Ranked by AGI
AGI Threshold on Percentiles
Percentage of Federal Personal Income Tax Paid

Top 1%
$364,657
39.38

Top 5%
$145,283
59.67

Top 10%
$103,912
70.30

Top 25%
$62,068
85.99

Top 50%
$30,881
96.93

Bottom 50%
&lt;$30,881
3.07

Does this look familiar Lyle? :DIt didn't go all the way to 2007, but it's the same for the most part.

hey, the Tax thread is somewhere else :D


This might be the best McCain interview yet


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I just read a short story about Horatio Bunce.

Reading it makes me realize how much we need Ron Paul as president.

I don't blame Bush for 9/11, in fact you can't really blame it on one president. You can only blame it on a bad foriegh policy. We have been messing around with the Middle East for nearly 100 years. That is several generations of hate building up.


(fm Pizza God)

I blame the stupid airline industry for 9/11.

Hijacking of airplanes wasn't new. Why is it that they continued to operate with essentially paper-mache cockpit doors until after 9/11 ???

It wasn't necessary to form a department of homeland security in a wasted effort to prevent another 9/11 or to remove our personal freedoms or liberties. All that needed to be done in order to prevent another 9/11-like act of terrorism was to harden the cockpit doors. Deny terrorists the opportunity to grab the controls and they can't fly the plane.

Yeah, they could still kill all of the passengers and crew, etc...but they couldn't use the plane itself as a weapon.

I wish that Ron Paul was more popular. I agree with him on many of his points and stances. He is the only Replublican candidate I could possibly bring myself to vote for.

Geez...what a mess we've gotten ourselves into.

One vote does not the candidate make.

Several posts -- probably several pages -- ago, I mentioned the futures market game at http://markets.rasmussenreports.com/ where you can trade on the outcomes of the presidential primaries. Check out which sucky disc golfer is now seventh in the world! http://markets.rasmussenreports.com/aav2/groups/ . Don't get too excited though. We're playing with monopoly money here. You won't see this money sponsoring IOSeries or anything. Rasmussen dollars trade for about 100,000 to 1 if you want to redeem them for Brass! :D

Right now 90% of my assets are locked into a highly profitable Democratic win-win-win short position on Super Tuesday. Most of the value of that position is reflected in my current account value. But no matter who wins, my position stays the same.

The rest of my assets are locked into what I've traded down to a break even position in the Florida Republican primary. When the Super Tuesday selling opportunity arose I had to find funds to get in so I sacrificed some my Florida profit and got out early.

If you understand futures markets, this is a fun game. If you don't understand futures markets, you can learn a little, and maybe I'll move up on the leaderboard!

Please vote republican!

http://img3.glowfoto.com/images/2008/01/27-2147151153T.jpg (http://www.glowfoto.com/viewimage.php?img=27-214715L&amp;y=2008&amp;m=01&amp;t=jpg&amp;rand=1153&amp;srv=img3)

Please vote republican!

http://img3.glowfoto.com/images/2008/01/27-2147151153T.jpg (http://www.glowfoto.com/viewimage.php?img=27-214715L&amp;y=2008&amp;m=01&amp;t=jpg&amp;rand=1153&amp;srv=img3)


SWEET PICTURE!

Too bad for her AND the republicans that this man IS the next president!!!!!!

http://www.obamayouth.com/images/small_obama_image.jpg http://www.weeklystandard.com/weblogs/TWSFP/Obama-Surf.jpg http://www.textually.org/ringtonia/archives/archives/images/set2/Barack2.jpg

Apparently the folks at Rasmussen Markets determined that I benefited from someone else's illegal market manipulation. I wasn't involved in their thing, but I've been divested of most of my funds. :mad: Until they update the leaderboard I'll still be in seventh.

I'm just guessing though. They have not sent me an e-mail explaining anything. They just voided out the primaries I was profiting in and docked my account R$ 220,000 or so.

They must be taking management tips from -- oh, I won't go there. :D

looks like

''Another one bites the Dust''

Here Rudy admits Ron Paul won all the debates [well sort of].......

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Do any of you know about Ron Paul's theory on how the world is going to end? Someone mentioned it to me and I googled but can't find anything. Anyone familiar with this, please send me either a PM or post here. Thanks!

Super Tuesday just one day away:

The evil robot Mitt Romney will get his male apendage kicked into the dirt tomorrow and throw in the towel!

Looks like O'Bama / Hillary will end up going into a lawyer-laden overtime ala 2000.

One thing for absolute cetain:
PROPOSITION-H WILL NOT BE THE FIRST FEMALE PRESIDENT.

Do any of you know about Ron Paul's theory on how the world is going to end? Someone mentioned it to me and I googled but can't find anything. Anyone familiar with this, please send me either a PM or post here. Thanks!



As much as I have studied and read stuff, including negative hit pieces. I have not come across anything like that.

Do any of you know about Ron Paul's theory on how the world is going to end? Someone mentioned it to me and I googled but can't find anything. Anyone familiar with this, please send me either a PM or post here. Thanks!



As much as I have studied and read stuff, including negative hit pieces. I have not come across anything like that.



Thanks, me neither! Someone brought it up so I had to research.

Re Mitt Romney - why is he evil?

Re Mitt Romney - why is he evil?



For starters:
"We should double Guantanamo!"

Mitt Romney is not the strongest candidate.

He will get torn apart by the Democrats in the general election.

What the Republicans did to Kerry will be blowback time on Romney.

I personally do not think Romney is evil, I think of him more as snake oil salesman.

I like that he is a businessman
I like that he was a governor
I like that he is more conservative than McCain and Huckabee

I don't like his positions from when he ran as Governor.
I don't like his personality.

Re Mitt Romney - why is he evil?



For starters:
"We should double Guantanamo!"



Can I please get a little bit more information, facts in writing would be nice. I can't base my decision on one opinion. Thank you.

CNN after Romney's religion speech

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Some Romney flip flopping

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Re Mitt Romney - why is he evil?



For starters:
"We should double Guantanamo!"



Can I please get a little bit more information, facts in writing would be nice. I can't base my decision on one opinion. Thank you.


What's there to decide? The dude's done.

Romney loosing it take two

<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/EdGUSjd3Tmo&rel=1"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/EdGUSjd3Tmo&rel=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>

If this does not make you kringe, nothing will

<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/0H8Nq7BglIg&rel=1"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/0H8Nq7BglIg&rel=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>

More on Romney's flip flopping

<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/JeP5A5cczqk&rel=1"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/JeP5A5cczqk&rel=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>

The problem with the Economy IS GOVERNMENT Mitt

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Nice compassion there Mitt

<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/NY6UTnS6Z-A&rel=1"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/NY6UTnS6Z-A&rel=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>
btw, this guy asked Ron Paul the same question and he supported this guy and his doctors.

From Romney's YouTube web site

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some incite into our possible next president.
<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/a9Dd-yg2A4E&rel=1"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/a9Dd-yg2A4E&rel=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>

BTW, he will tank bad against Obama. It would be a close race with Hillary.

Mitt Romney, the former frontrunner for the Republican presidential election, is about to withdraw from the contest after a poor showing in nationwide primaries this week, CNN reported today.

Yep, the Moron, I mean Mormon has quit the race. He is reportedly going to endorse John McCain tonight at a rally.

So now, true conservatives only have one vote, RON PAUL.

The only Strong illegal immigration candidate
the only candidate that understands economics
the only candidate that would pull us out of Iraq
The only candidate that understands the Terrorist problem and will deal with it correctly

Yep, the Moron, I mean Mormon has quit the race. He is reportedly going to endorse John McCain tonight at a rally.

So now, true conservatives only have one vote, RON PAUL.

The only Strong illegal immigration candidate
the only candidate that understands economics
the only candidate that would pull us out of Iraq
The only candidate that understands the Terrorist problem and will deal with it correctly



I agree - a mormon would have been very scary in the white house!

Here's a note from ALIPAC:

February 7, 2008

Friends of ALIPAC,

Let me start off by saying that those responsible for the paralysis of our laws, the mockery of our Constitution, and the opening of our borders may break our government and break our nation, but they will never break our fighting spirit and determination.

We are Americans! Not North Americans and we will prevail against those who would steal our nation, steal our freedoms, and attempt to crush our spirit.

Tuesday's primary results bode ill for our nation and American citizens. It is absolutely outlandish that the two status quo candidates, the two DC insiders, the two people most responsible for the problems in America took the lead in the Republican and Democratic primaries.

This development flies in the face of the polls that show a super majority of Americans oppose Amnesty and want enforcement of our existing immigration laws.

More fundamentally, we are now expected to believe that John McCain and Hillary Clinton have some kind of public mandate to govern, when polls show historic levels of Americans feel the nation is on the wrong track!

Support for Comprehensive Immigration Reform Amnesty was not proven on Super Tuesday. What was proven is just how much of a farce and mockery the American political systems have become. Those of us who have watched the immigration issue closely and watched King George in the White House knew this already.

Let me make this very clear to the pro-Amnesty Open Borders traitors in our nation.

Many of us will never vote for John McCain, under any circumstances.

The illegal immigration issue will not calm down, things are about to get louder and more intense than ever!

McCain won because the anti-illegal immigration vote was split three ways among Romney, Paul, and Huckabee. While we are aware that Huckabee is working in collusion with the McCain campaign, most voters believed he was going to make the illegal aliens leave America in 120 days! While we know that his 180 degree shift to present himself as against Amnesty and for immigration enforcement was a calculated farce, but the voters thought otherwise because the mainstream media refused to tell people the truth!

A McCain win will not stop the escalating problems from illegal immigration. Each day, more Americans will be murdered by illegal aliens. More atrocities will befall American citizens, more jobs and wages will be lost, more tax dollars will be stolen from us, and more illegal aliens will be in our face making demands of us, especially with the coming visit of Mexican President Calderon who comes to address his citizens on America soil.

While we did not win the battle this week, the McCain win results in a stalemate between our team and the Global aristocracy that has hijacked our nation. The elites may be able to hold their ground in the highest towers, but they are not gloating today, they are sighing in relief because they were terrified that the immigration issue could take them out of power in the Executive Branch, where they have accomplished most of their plans.

Our plan, the ALIPAC plan, is to encircle McCain and Hillary with as many angry citizens, lawmakers, and states as possible every step of the way!

A continuation of the economic unification plans and the non-enforcement plans of the Bush administration are but a stalemate on the Presidential level.

We had hoped to turn things around and restore the Rule of Law and self governance of the American populace by disrupting the aristocracy�s� plans within the GOP primary, and while we failed to do so, our attention now goes to where we can win.

We know we can win in the states, we are winning in the states, and we have the illegal aliens on the run out of Georgia, Arizona, Oklahoma, and now possibly South Carolina due to the historic passage of new immigration laws in those states. Virginia, Indiana, Utah, Mississippi and others are close to doing the same with our help!

The options for illegal aliens to get licenses are shrinking, with only five states remaining that give them licenses, and after our recent win in the state of Michigan, which will no longer issue licenses to illegal aliens.

Our goal now is to call for an independent candidate, such as Lou Dobbs, to enter the race for President. If that fails, we will work to assure that Hillary Clinton or John McCain enters the White House as the most unpopular newly elected Presidents in American history.

How do we accomplish this? Simply, by getting the truth to more Americans.

While the anti-illegal immigration vote was split, predominantly by spoiler Huckabee who followed Romney around saying, "vote for me I'll be tough on immigration", while most Americans were influenced by the Main Stream Media which has predominantly become nothing more than a mass marketing wing for large corporations and liberal special interest groups.

Huckabee's hand has been played for all to see. He worked in collusion with McCain's supporters to deprive Romney of the delegate votes in West Virginia, in what can only be described as a political dirty trick. He flooded voter households with his direct mail piece featuring the endorsement of lone Minuteman Jim Gilchrist to take those votes away from Romney, which the McCain team saw as the only significant threat to their campaign.

Romney also failed to reach out to the immigration enforcement movement. He expected the anti-illegal immigration vote by default and made no effort to sign NumbersUSA's "No Amnesty" pledge. He failed to respond to Senator Jeff Session's immigration pledge as well and accepted the endorsement of Tom Tancredo with a lack of enthusiasm. While we were happy to see him place Kris Kobach on his campaign, no other groups or activists in our movement heard from or heard back from the Romney campaign.

The results of Romney's lack of understanding of our movement and lack of outreach to our movement cost him dearly because he failed to generate the grassroots support he needed, although many talk radio show hosts came to his aid in the final moments before Super Tuesday.

One thing that must happen within our movement is the acrimony between those who support Ron Paul and Mitt Romney, and some who support other candidates must end.

We must all come together now. We need those who supported every candidate, including Huckabee, Obama, and Edwards, to join us to encircle McClinton.

We must put our attention on the real issues, behind the illegal immigration issue.

The real issue here is the self-governance, and the security and freedoms that depend on a self-governed population, of American citizens.

The loss of one important election will not force Americans to go quietly into the night. We still know that we speak for the majority of Americans, but we speak for a more important group.

We speak for Americans who have their eyes wide open. We are a collective of Americans who know the most about these issues, those who have watched and learned diligently, those who are most capable of making correct decisions because we have taken responsibility for seeking and understanding the truth of what is really happening in America.

This fact has been made abundantly clear to us at ALIPAC, due to the thousands of you who have written to us in the last 36 hours.

You are not alone in your sadness and anger.

You are angry and dismayed and it is not because your hearts are filled with hate.

You are rightfully angry and indignant because you love this country, you love your families, and you love your freedoms. Watching the American Dream dismantled and destroyed should make you angry.

Watching the greatest nation on earth destroyed from within should trigger a natural survival response in people and that survival response is anger.

And while we channel our anger into a peaceful and civic minded resolution to this conflict, we must maintain our compassion. While illegal aliens must be held accountable to the current laws, we must remain compassionate to them.

We must also remain compassionate to the dumb suckers in America, who are brainwashed enough to have cast a vote for Hillary or McCain this week. Forgive them father for they know what they do.

Watching the aristocracy's chosen ones ascend to the front of the primaries, eager to return business as usual to Washington DC, is an outrage at a time when our nation needs leaders and not servants of those responsible for this crisis.

John McCain and Hillary Clinton, you make us sick. Your Super Tuesday wins have made many conscious Americans physically ill. Many more are heartsick at the terrifying possibility that you will "lead" this nation further down the path of decay just as you have illustrated before now. The word "lead" is probably not appropriate here. McCain and Clinton's job would be to oversee America's transition into a more continental and global economic block.

Aside from important issues like the war, the economy, and immigration, far too many Americans think that both of you are expert liars. Will America survive another liar in the White House for four years?

A special note for Hillary, you need to find some dead historical figure to imitate, if you want to win. Obama is doing well against you, due to his efforts to drag around the political corpse of Martin Luther King, Jr. and imitate King's public speaking style. We expect John McCain to ask Nancy Reagan, if he can start carrying Ronald's old jelly bean jar around on the campaign trail soon, so Hillary you had better find the ghost of a past leader to adorn soon.

ALIPAC's Executive Officers have discussed this and we just can't think of any well known, deceased, Caucasian, female, liberal, leaders in American history over the last 50 years that Hillary could invoke the spirit of. Presidential wives do not count. Margaret Thatcher was a conservative and Jane Fonda is still alive and when she leaves this mortal coil, we do not think history will smile upon her. Tough luck for you Hillary! If you ever stop trying to run on your husband's political experience, you might realize that great leaders are never properly imitated.

That is the name of the game isn't it? The game is to reach back into American history, to cannibalize the dead like some political ghoul, to remind people of a time when things were better, a time when we actually had great leaders and men and women of strength in the political realms.

The Axis of Amnesty, McClintoBama, is becoming the political equivalent of American Idol. We get to watch a competition where lesser talents give us their rendition of past great hits. We get imitation candidates who have to steal from the past to take on any air of respectability. Perhaps we can all vote for President on our cell phones in 2012?

Would you vote for Obama's MLK rendition or McCain's Reagan routine as finalists?

So we watch and shudder to think of the consequences of this year's Presidential Pageant that has been reduced to some kind of political karaoke. The actors have been chosen by the financial elite who have cast the players for us, in what will soon be the most expensive campaign in Global history, which is far removed from the financial achievements of 99% of America's citizens.

This candidate game is clearly for the ultra-wealthy or those who serve them. While most of us do not have a problem with the rich, we do have a problem with elite Global money hijacking our government and depriving us of self-governance, for the aristocracies have always hated Republics and Democracies. The mere idea that some peasant would have the same rights and influence on policy as a Rockefeller has always been an anathema to them.

This conflict we face is ancient. It is the conflict that gave birth to this nation. It is the conflict that has been fought by each generation, which is to preserve what is truly American. It is a conflict that will decide, if American citizens run the nation or big business and their liberal marketing departments in the Main Stream media.

This is a conflict between good and evil. It is good for people to be free and self-governed and have the laws their representatives enacted enforced. It is evil of those who would lie and cheat to take that away from people out of greedy desires for more power and money.

We rise to the challenge. We remain as resolved as the soldiers facing the deadly winter in Valley Forge. We will fight until our hands are bound or our breath is taken from our bodies. The lights we hold in our hands will cast the shadows back as we grow in numbers.

This is our land, our nation, we determine what happens here, and we stand together as Americans from all races and walks of life in defiance of those who seek to take that away from us.

If there is any group of people in the world who can stop the power of those we face, it is Americans.

William Gheen
www.alipac.us (http://www.alipac.us)
Americans for Legal Immigration Political Action Committee
ALIPAC

What a waste of pixels.

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war war war
if the Republican party tries to use the war as an issue, they are going to loose BIG TIME.

One of the main reasons why lots of conservatives do not like McCain.

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This is what Ron Paul has to say about how conservative Juan McWar is.
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a quick look at who could be our next president

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McCain is going to provide AMNESTY for the 20 million illegal aliens already here which will bring on the rest of the country once they hear about it. Brush up on your Spanish!

what would YOU propose we do with over 20 million PEOPLE that gained entrance to the country illegally?

send them to iraq

This is a list of states and delegates, sorry, I don't remember how to table it.

McCain Romney Huck Paul
AL 18 0 23 0 Bound
AK 3 12 6 5 UnBound
AR 1 1 29 0 Bound - 1 Round
CA 152 6 0 0 Bound - 2 Rounds
CO 0 43 0 0 Bound - 1 Round
CT 27 0 0 0 Bound - 1 Round
DE 18 0 0 0 Bound - 1 Round
FL 57 0 0 0 Bound - 2 Rounds
GA 21 3 48 0 Bound - 2 Rounds
IL 54 3 0 0 Bound
IA 0 7 30 0 UnBound
KS 0 0 36 0 Bound - 1 Round
ME 0 18 0 0 UnBound
MA 18 22 0 0 Bound - 1 Round
MI 6 23 1 0 Bound - 1 Round
MN 0 38 0 0 24 Unbound -14- 1RD
MO 58 0 0 0 Bound - 1 Round
MT 0 25 0 0 UnBound
NV 4 17 3 4 UnBound
NH 12 7 4 1 Bound
NJ 52 0 0 0 Bound 3 Rounds
NY 101 0 0 0 UnBound
ND 5 8 5 5 Bound- 1 Round
OK 32 0 6 0 Bound
SC 19 0 5 0 Bound - 2 Rounds
TN 18 11 23 0 Bound - 2 Rounds
UT 0 36 0 0 Bound - 1 Round
WV 0 0 15 3 Bound - 1 Round
WY 0 8 0 0 Unbound

Total 568 177 195 9 Bound

Total 108 111 39 9 Unbound

Remaining States
Louisiana 02/09 20 C- Awaiting Breakdown Bound- 1 Round
Washington 02/09 18 - Awaiting Breakdown UnBound
Virginia 02/12 63 W Bound- 1 Round
Maryland 02/12 37 C Bound- 2 Rounds
District of Columbia 02/12 19 W C Bound
Wisconsin 02/19 40 Bound
American Samoa 02/23 9 UnBound
Puerto Rico 02/24 23 Bound- 1 Round
Texas 03/04 140 Bound- 3 Rounds
Ohio 03/04 88 UnBound
Rhode Island 03/04 20 Bound
Vermont 03/04 17 W Bound - 2 Rounds
Mississippi 03/10 39 Bound
Virgin Islands 04/04 9 "Morally Bound"
Pennsylvania 04/22 74 C UnBound
North Carolina 05/06 69 "Morally Bound"
Indiana 05/06 57 Bound- 1 Round
Nebraska 05/13 33 Bound- 2 Rounds
Hawaii 05/16 20 C Bound- 1 Round
Kentucky 05/20 45 C Bound
Oregon 05/20 30 C Bound- 2 Rounds
Idaho 05/27 32 Bound- 1 Round
New Mexico 06/03 32 C Bound- 1 Round
South Dakota 06/03 27 C Bound- 1 Round
WV Primary - 9 Bound- 1 round

Total Bound Remaining: 703
Total Unbound Remaining(Includes Morally Bound): 267

To lock up the nomination McCain would need to secure 623 of the 703 Bound delegates remaining.

Of course the media is not reporting this. It is way beyond a majority of the people intelligents.

what would YOU propose we do with over 20 million PEOPLE that gained entrance to the country illegally?



Those people broke the law. If they are caught, they should be deported.

They come here because it is easy. It pays better than home. And we don't do anything if they are caught.

1st - stop the inflow, build the wall that was already approved

2nd - enforce laws already on the books. This includes laws against employers. Trust me, 1000 per day fine is not something I want to pay.

3rd - deport every illegal alien that arrested. Quit letting them go.

4th - no more anchor babies. Just because you were born here does not make you a citizen. Guess what, if you have a kid in Mexico or Canada, they are still American citizens and not Mexican or Canadian.

5th - No more government handouts to anyone that is not a citizen.

6th - Enforce Visa laws. Track down violators. 15 of the 19 9/11 hijackers visas were expired.


That is a start

what would YOU propose we do with over 20 million PEOPLE that gained entrance to the country illegally?



Those people broke the law. If they are caught, they should be deported.

They come here because it is easy. It pays better than home. And we don't do anything if they are caught.

1st - stop the inflow, build the wall that was already approved

2nd - enforce laws already on the books. This includes laws against employers. Trust me, 1000 per day fine is not something I want to pay.

3rd - deport every illegal alien that arrested. Quit letting them go.

4th - no more anchor babies. Just because you were born here does not make you a citizen. Guess what, if you have a kid in Mexico or Canada, they are still American citizens and not Mexican or Canadian.

5th - No more government handouts to anyone that is not a citizen.

6th - Enforce Visa laws. Track down violators. 15 of the 19 9/11 hijackers visas were expired.


That is a start



I agree 100% with you! PIZZA GOD FOR PRESIDENT!!

So Cal is now called Northern Mexico. The only thing I'd add to this list is that they have to learn the language instead of making us learn Spanish. "Press 1 for English" is BS in AMERICA!

what would YOU propose we do with over 20 million PEOPLE that gained entrance to the country illegally?



Those people broke the law. If they are caught, they should be deported.

They come here because it is easy. It pays better than home. And we don't do anything if they are caught.

1st - stop the inflow, build the wall that was already approved

2nd - enforce laws already on the books. This includes laws against employers. Trust me, 1000 per day fine is not something I want to pay.

3rd - deport every illegal alien that arrested. Quit letting them go.

4th - no more anchor babies. Just because you were born here does not make you a citizen. Guess what, if you have a kid in Mexico or Canada, they are still American citizens and not Mexican or Canadian.

5th - No more government handouts to anyone that is not a citizen.

6th - Enforce Visa laws. Track down violators. 15 of the 19 9/11 hijackers visas were expired.


That is a start



I agree 100% with you! PIZZA GOD FOR PRESIDENT!!

So Cal is now called Northern Mexico. The only thing I'd add to this list is that they have to learn the language instead of making us learn Spanish. "Press 1 for English" is BS in AMERICA!




Not as bad as Press @1 for Spanish, Press #2 for English.

I've had that happen a few times.

The worst is "press 1 TO CONTINUE this call in English". I should never have to "CONTINUE" a call in the official language of the USA!

The worst is "press 1 TO CONTINUE this call in English". I should never have to "CONTINUE" a call in the official language of the USA!



There is no official language of the USA.

Do you know why?

As a government, we've never set one. The whole "Melting Pot" concept and everything, you know.

Thank you for the response.
The proposals I have a problem with are:
1st -- the wall is quite expensive and closes access to water for some legal Americans. Many naturally born Americans complain about the inequity of having a physical wall, not to mention the economic impact regarding the cost of the wall.
4th -- Are you saying deport the infants, children, adults, regardless of the health and wellbeing of said infant or pregnant adult? Are you saying that if this adult entered the USA illegally with a parent when he or she was a toddler decades ago, has married, had a child with an American father, the child should be separated from his/her parent because she came to the country illegally decades ago before she could make a choice?
The problem with no amnesty is that it does not take the PEOPLE into consideration. Each needs to be handled on an individual basis, but it would be too costly. I would propose that there be a hearing before deportation, at the very least for someone that has not broken any other laws.

i dont understand the borders any way. they are by all rights an imaginary line any way,meaning God didnt draw the lines.

You realize that press #1 for English has nothing to do with the government? It has everything to do with business. I often find that it is the same people who complain about not wanting government that hate this. Big Business does this because it's profitable to do it. They want those dollars and they don't much care about how you feel about it. The only way to stop it is to have government pass a law making it illegal.

Why is this such an issue anyway? It isn't like calling a company isn't a misery of button pushing anyway. The English/Spanish option is minor in terms of the inconvenience of the whole thing.

Lyle, when you call Richard Simmons' hot line do you have to press 1 to continue in English?


Never mind, you just see him in person...
http://www.paulwellslive.com/photo-simmons.jpg

LOL

I haven't looked that good in years!

what would YOU propose we do with over 20 million PEOPLE that gained entrance to the country illegally?



Those people broke the law. If they are caught, they should be deported.

They come here because it is easy. It pays better than home. And we don't do anything if they are caught.

1st - stop the inflow, build the wall that was already approved

2nd - enforce laws already on the books. This includes laws against employers. Trust me, 1000 per day fine is not something I want to pay.

3rd - deport every illegal alien that arrested. Quit letting them go.

4th - no more anchor babies. Just because you were born here does not make you a citizen. Guess what, if you have a kid in Mexico or Canada, they are still American citizens and not Mexican or Canadian.

5th - No more government handouts to anyone that is not a citizen.

6th - Enforce Visa laws. Track down violators. 15 of the 19 9/11 hijackers visas were expired.


That is a start

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws. - XIV Amendment to the U.S. Constitution

So your 4th point is wrong.

Thank you for the response.
The proposals I have a problem with are:
1st -- the wall is quite expensive and closes access to water for some legal Americans. Many naturally born Americans complain about the inequity of having a physical wall, not to mention the economic impact regarding the cost of the wall.<font color="red"> The money for the wall and boarder protection was already appropriated. Now, thanks to a new bill, homeland security get to spend that money how they see fit. If they don't want to build a wall, they don't have to. Yes, in the Texas part, they want to put the wall right through towns or cutting off towns on the Mexican side. These are legitimate problems with the wall in those locations. </font>
4th -- Are you saying deport the infants, children, adults, regardless of the health and wellbeing of said infant or pregnant adult? Are you saying that if this adult entered the USA illegally with a parent when he or she was a toddler decades ago, has married, had a child with an American father, the child should be separated from his/her parent because she came to the country illegally decades ago before she could make a choice?<font color="red"> I know it seems heartless but yes. They made that choice. They should be forced to move back, even if they have lived here for 10 years. </font>
The problem with no amnesty is that it does not take the PEOPLE into consideration. <font color="red"> There is no way no how AMNESTY should EVER be given. If that is done, I want amnesty from the IRS or things I did back when I was a stupid teenager. </font> Each needs to be handled on an individual basis, but it would be too costly. I would propose that there be a hearing before deportation, at the very least for someone that has not broken any other laws.

<font color="red"> I will not argue a hearing, but only to determine how long too give them to leave the country. </font>

You realize that press #1 for English has nothing to do with the government?




Yes, I realize this is NOT something the government put in place. It was put in place because MILLIONS of spanish speaking people have invaded our country and demand that WE comply to THEIR language.

MY POINT: Everyone brush up on your spanish!

Thank you for the response.
The proposals I have a problem with are:
1st -- the wall is quite expensive and closes access to water for some legal Americans. Many naturally born Americans complain about the inequity of having a physical wall, not to mention the economic impact regarding the cost of the wall.
4th -- Are you saying deport the infants, children, adults, regardless of the health and wellbeing of said infant or pregnant adult? Are you saying that if this adult entered the USA illegally with a parent when he or she was a toddler decades ago, has married, had a child with an American father, the child should be separated from his/her parent because she came to the country illegally decades ago before she could make a choice?
The problem with no amnesty is that it does not take the PEOPLE into consideration. Each needs to be handled on an individual basis, but it would be too costly. I would propose that there be a hearing before deportation, at the very least for someone that has not broken any other laws.



1. Then they can go to their city council meetings (or wherever this stuff is decided upon) and voice their opinion and have it moved a few feet. Big deal.

4. YES, I'm saying they ALL must go back. Here's a scenario for you. Mr. John Doe who lives on your block commits a FELONY. But he's got an innocent wife and granny and 15 kids who didn't commit the crime... so therefore he SHOULDN'T pay the penalty for commiting said FELONY just because he has innocent people who live with him? You're saying he can go free? Only to probably commit more felonies, by the way, since he got away from it the first time?

Does that make any sense to you, Laura?

BTW, there ARE already hearings held each and every day - for those who stood in line, paid their fees, learned the language, got their work visa, got a sponsor, etc. and came here LEGALLY. I welcome those people! Bring 'em on! Welcome to USA! Thank you for doing it legally instead of sneaking in here and breaking our laws and DEMANDING your "RIGHTS" as an ILLEGAL citizen. That's where I'm coming from.

c'mon guyz, that's easy:
http://samueljscott.files.wordpress.com/2007/04/dollar.jpg

what would YOU propose we do with over 20 million PEOPLE that gained entrance to the country illegally?



I'd send them all back to Europe. Keep America for native Americans, you know, the ones that have been here for over 10,000 years. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif Of course given that most of the Mexicans coming over the border have a great deal of Indian blood, one might argue that they've been in the Americas a lot longer than we have. :D

On a more serious note, I'd teach those illegals a lesson. I'd give them all the dirtiest, most dangerous jobs in America, you know, the ones Americans refuse to do. That'd teach them a lesson! Oh wait, never mind.

There are Americans that will do the dirty jobs, just not for 5 bucks an hour.

bad argument, unless you are the business that wants to pay them.

Thank you, Bryan, for your response.
They do try you differently as an adult than when you were "a stupid teenager". I'm not exactly sure what you need amnesty from. I won't pry. :D
I'm just saying that not every person here illegally had a choice.
Michelle, it's not quite as simple as you make it seem in your scenerio. I don't think anyone that has proposed an idea short of amnesty for those that are already here understands the magnitude of what they are asking. There is no way to go around and pick up every man, woman, and child that ever entered this country illegally. If so, I'm afraid you would have to do like Lyle suggested and pick us all us that do not have proof of Native American (commonly referred to as Indians) heritage.
In order to do any realistic immigration reform you need to start somewhere and work from there. You cannot go back to day one. That is my point.

There are Americans that will do the dirty jobs, just not for 5 bucks an hour.

bad argument, unless you are the business that wants to pay them.



Ya need to do some research on this one Za.

One example, when they busted the Swift meat factories up North. You're correct, American's did step up and take the positions. Turn-over, reliability and speed have all gone up, down and up. Analysis shows clearly that the Americans don't like or want to do these jobs. They will take them as a temporary stop gap but they don't want to do them long term.

That is because, for the most part, Americans have become lazy.

Shoot, remember who I hire. I find it very hard to hire teenagers and be able to get them to work. It was MUCH worse when I was the manager of the West Plano store. These kids had cars worth more than mine because daddy paid for it.

That is why I do not give my sons things. They have to work for them. No work, no things.

Sure I will give him one of our old auto's, and will pay for his insurance, but he will have to pay for gas, repairs and any increases in his insurance rates. [he is only 13 right now]

Laura, I understand your compassion. I would not break up families, I would send them all home. :D

As far as the person who was brought here by illegal kids. They have a way of becoming legal. Return to there homeland and apply to come back as a permanent resident/citizen.

I have ZERO problem with legal immigration. If you got all the illegal residence out, you could increase the Legal Work Visas and extend others.



Officer Brian Jackson Across the force, Dallas police officers are grieving for one of their own after he was killed in a gunfight early Sunday morning.....

11/14/2005
From WFAA-TV Staff Reports

Police said Officer Brian Jackson, 28, was shot under the arm in the 2400 block of North Henderson Avenue in East Dallas after he chased a gunman on foot who had reportedly threatened his ex-girlfriend and fired a shot in her home.

A homeowner said Juan Lizcano, 29, hid in his front yard on the 2400 block of Madera Street and then fired on the officer when he came through the front gate.

Two officers attempted CPR on Jackson, but by the time doctors at Baylor Medical Center had a chance to try and save his life, Jackson was already gone.

He had been married just two months when he gave his life wearing the badge he earned five years ago.

As police continue to investigate further into the shooting, many of them also mourn the loss of their fellow officer. It was the first on-duty police fatality in Dallas since 2001, and the first on Chief David Kunkle's watch.

"He was a very kind, compassionate man who cared very deeply about his wife, his family and his job," Kunkle said.

Lizcano was arrested for the shooting, along with a friend, Jose Fernandez, who police found in Lizcano's car.

However, Fernandez is no longer in Dallas police custody after investigators questioned and released him.

Fernandez said he and Lizcano went out Saturday evening to a nightclub off Interstate 35 near Manana Drive.

Juan Lizcano sits in the back of a patrol car after he allegedly fatally shot Officer Brian Jackson. There, he said Lizcano became drunk and later pulled out a gun in his truck and said he was going to kill his ex-girlfriend.

He was with Lizcano when he said the suspect drove to his ex-girlfriend's home.

"He was jealous," Fernandez said. "He believed the woman was with another guy."

Fernandez said he tried to stop Lizcano from going inside the woman's house, but he wouldn't listen.

"I stayed in the truck, and then the police arrived," he said. "And they got me out of the truck and then I heard many gunshots."

<font color="red"> This wasn't Lizcano's first violent run-in with the police. He was first booked in September for threatening to kill his ex-girlfriend with a knife. Six days later, he posed again for a mug shot for a charge of driving while intoxicated. </font>

Finally, his latest mug shot was for the murder of Jackson.

Lizcano's friends said he was typically a nice guy, but would become violent when he started drinking.

"I didn't think he would ever do that," said friend Joe Gallegos.

Friends of Lizcano said he had worked as a landscaper and had been in the United States for the past two years as an <font color="red">illegal immigrant. </font>



So two times this cop killer was arrested and let go by the Dallas Police Department. Because they did not turn him over to ICE, a Police officer is now dead.

As far as the person who was brought here by illegal kids. They have a way of becoming legal. Return to there homeland and apply to come back as a permanent resident/citizen.



It is currently an 8 year wait for applicants from mexico to be processed as legal US citizens.

Juan Lizcano should have been deported immediately when he was "first booked n September..." agreed. I have no argument there.

That is because, for the most part, Americans have become lazy.

Shoot, remember who I hire. I find it very hard to hire teenagers and be able to get them to work. It was MUCH worse when I was the manager of the West Plano store. These kids had cars worth more than mine because daddy paid for it.

That is why I do not give my sons things. They have to work for them. No work, no things.

Sure I will give him one of our old auto's, and will pay for his insurance, but he will have to pay for gas, repairs and any increases in his insurance rates. [he is only 13 right now]



I don't get your point Za. I say "jobs Americans don't want" say "that's because were lazy." I don't care what the reason is, if Americans don't want the jobs, they don't want them. That simply proves my point.

BTW - the jobs Americans do want. Well, those are being shipped overseas by greedy Companies under the auspices of our government.

Next story to make you worry:


Back in the 1980s GM invented a new type of magnet. Very powerful. At first it was used to downsize starters in cars by about 4 fold in weight. Excellent invention and very useful. The magnets became a central component in smart bomb technology being essential for the directional targeting of such.

GM decided to sell the plant that made these magnets to the Chinese (presumably to get the Chinese to open up their market to GM vehicles). Well, since it was a weapons technology, the Clinton Admin allowed the sale, but forced a piece of legislation through that said the plants and technology could not go to China. The Chinese companies (state owned companies) got their deal and continued to buy up any other company that played any role in the production of said magnets.

After the Bush Administration came into office, they, that is the Chinese, transfered the technology and manufacturing to China leaving America with no ability to produce those magnets. That's O.K. though, we can still get them from our buddies... the Chinese.

The Bush Admin has been asked about this by a pesky Democratic Senator (his name escapes me at the moment) i.e. "why did you let this happen?" and refuses to reply.

BTW - did I mention that the Chinese government fired an incredibly accurate ballistic missile using smart bomb technology just a year or so ago? Now I wonder how they figured that out?

The GOP, helping Americans make money and keeping America... safe!

Michelle, it's not quite as simple as you make it seem in your scenerio. I don't think anyone that has proposed an idea short of amnesty for those that are already here understands the magnitude of what they are asking. There is no way to go around and pick up every man, woman, and child that ever entered this country illegally. If so, I'm afraid you would have to do like Lyle suggested and pick us all us that do not have proof of Native American (commonly referred to as Indians) heritage.
In order to do any realistic immigration reform you need to start somewhere and work from there. You cannot go back to day one. That is my point.



I'm saying that when someone is pulled over and has no proof of ID or papers or Visa or whatever, they should be deported back to wherever it is they came from. If they don't want to split up their family, take them back too! It's a great start!! But to give anchor babies automatic citizenship brings on more pregnant mothers and who winds up paying for their medical care and education, etc.? YOU AND I DO!

My point is that the problem is only getting worse, not better. And McCain would like to see open borders and so would Hillary and Obama too! We need someone who will STOP THIS NONSENSE before it's 100% taken away from us! I love this country and am willing to fight for it. You are willing to just give it away to those who will TAKE it from us! That, I do not get!!

Michelle, it's not quite as simple as you make it seem in your scenerio. I don't think anyone that has proposed an idea short of amnesty for those that are already here understands the magnitude of what they are asking. There is no way to go around and pick up every man, woman, and child that ever entered this country illegally. If so, I'm afraid you would have to do like Lyle suggested and pick us all us that do not have proof of Native American (commonly referred to as Indians) heritage.
In order to do any realistic immigration reform you need to start somewhere and work from there. You cannot go back to day one. That is my point.



I'm saying that when someone is pulled over and has no proof of ID or papers or Visa or whatever, they should be deported back to wherever it is they came from. If they don't want to split up their family, take them back too! It's a great start!! But to give anchor babies automatic citizenship brings on more pregnant mothers and who winds up paying for their medical care and education, etc.? YOU AND I DO!

My point is that the problem is only getting worse, not better. And McCain would like to see open borders and so would Hillary and Obama too! We need someone who will STOP THIS NONSENSE before it's 100% taken away from us! I love this country and am willing to fight for it. You are willing to just give it away to those who will TAKE it from us! That, I do not get!!



What nonsense? I got ta tell ya, it's already been taken away. They didn't have to come here to get it. We allowed our government and big business to ship it overseas.

America, our wealth distribution mimics those bastions of fairness, Mexico, Brazil, and Russia. We've been had, we just don't know it yet.

Michelle, it's not quite as simple as you make it seem in your scenerio. I don't think anyone that has proposed an idea short of amnesty for those that are already here understands the magnitude of what they are asking. There is no way to go around and pick up every man, woman, and child that ever entered this country illegally. If so, I'm afraid you would have to do like Lyle suggested and pick us all us that do not have proof of Native American (commonly referred to as Indians) heritage.
In order to do any realistic immigration reform you need to start somewhere and work from there. You cannot go back to day one. That is my point.



I'm saying that when someone is pulled over and has no proof of ID or papers or Visa or whatever, they should be deported back to wherever it is they came from. If they don't want to split up their family, take them back too! It's a great start!! But to give anchor babies automatic citizenship brings on more pregnant mothers and who winds up paying for their medical care and education, etc.? YOU AND I DO!

My point is that the problem is only getting worse, not better. And McCain would like to see open borders and so would Hillary and Obama too! We need someone who will STOP THIS NONSENSE before it's 100% taken away from us! I love this country and am willing to fight for it. You are willing to just give it away to those who will TAKE it from us! That, I do not get!!



This is a very nieve and uninformed statment. You clearly are not aware of the consequenses of your actions.

You realize that press #1 for English has nothing to do with the government?




Yes, I realize this is NOT something the government put in place. It was put in place because MILLIONS of spanish speaking people have invaded our country and demand that WE comply to THEIR language.

MY POINT: Everyone brush up on your spanish!



That's the point, they didn't demand anything. They simply provided a marketing opportunity and big business jumped at it.

Habla Espanol? Si! Es a muy bonita tardes en Tejas! Cervesa por favore?

Michelle, it's not quite as simple as you make it seem in your scenerio. I don't think anyone that has proposed an idea short of amnesty for those that are already here understands the magnitude of what they are asking. There is no way to go around and pick up every man, woman, and child that ever entered this country illegally. If so, I'm afraid you would have to do like Lyle suggested and pick us all us that do not have proof of Native American (commonly referred to as Indians) heritage.
In order to do any realistic immigration reform you need to start somewhere and work from there. You cannot go back to day one. That is my point.



I'm saying that when someone is pulled over and has no proof of ID or papers or Visa or whatever, they should be deported back to wherever it is they came from. If they don't want to split up their family, take them back too! It's a great start!! But to give anchor babies automatic citizenship brings on more pregnant mothers and who winds up paying for their medical care and education, etc.? YOU AND I DO!

My point is that the problem is only getting worse, not better. And McCain would like to see open borders and so would Hillary and Obama too! We need someone who will STOP THIS NONSENSE before it's 100% taken away from us! I love this country and am willing to fight for it. You are willing to just give it away to those who will TAKE it from us! That, I do not get!!



This is a very nieve and uninformed statment. You clearly are not aware of the consequenses of your actions.



Oh? pray tell....

You realize that press #1 for English has nothing to do with the government?




Yes, I realize this is NOT something the government put in place. It was put in place because MILLIONS of spanish speaking people have invaded our country and demand that WE comply to THEIR language.

MY POINT: Everyone brush up on your spanish!



That's the point, they didn't demand anything. They simply provided a marketing opportunity and big business jumped at it.

Habla Espanol? Si! Es a muy bonita tardes en Tejas! Cervesa por favore?



I refuse to learn the language. If you want to communicate with me, you'll have to learn what we're taught in America, not Mexico.

Consequences:

It has already been established that Americans do not want most of these jobs and/or cannot do these jobs...atleast not for the wages that they are getting paid. With the mexican immigrants gone it WILL affect your pocket book and inconvienence your existance.

I will only discuss the industries that I know first hand and will affect the majority of the US citizens even though there are countless industries that utilize illegal immigrants.

1.) Restaurant industry: how would you like to pay $20 for a cheeseburger from Chili's? I am the SR Kitchen manager for a high volume restaurant and I have hired EVERY US citizen that has applied to my kitchen. Not one of those has lasted more than 2 months most don't last 2 shifts or give notice. The restaurant business is a game of pennies and losing immigrant workers will not only drive prices up but put a lot of US citizens out of work! :(

2. Agriculture: exact same scenerio as the restaurant except you will see prices driven up at the grocery store. Everybody has to eat right.

3. Dry Cleaners: How would you like to pay $5 for a laundered shirt instead of $2...now wait a week for it instead of same day service.

4. Construction: Americans CAN NOT and WILL NOT work that hard. For those of you that live in a major city think about the last major road construction that took place. Now triple the amount of time it took to complete and that is what life would be like without our immigrants. Pizza: do remember the 75 construction in north Dallas a few years back? How long did that take...round 2 years...imagine putting up with that mess for 6 years.

Deportation is not as easy as certain people make it out to be. People think that they can just go apply and come into our country legally. Those people have no clue what it takes to become a citizen of the US. The US issues a certain number of visas every year...that number is divided amongst all of the countries that have applicants. In 2006 about 176000 were issued to mexico ( the highest number given to any country) the current wait for a mexican to get a US visa is over 8 years.

Amnesty is the only way to fix the problem...when will you wake up and smell the coffee? Amnesty with say a $10,000 attached...there are currently over 15 million illegals in the U.S. do the math. Amnesty will allow all of them to get identification, pay taxes, get auto insurance, and be in the court system and be punished like the rest of us. I just don't see the downside. :confused:

I would also like to point out that in all of my dealings with mexican immigrants they have never demanded that I/we learn their language. Most are very thankful and respectful of our race.

Too bad we cannot say the same about the other major race that resides in this country. :o

You realize that press #1 for English has nothing to do with the government?




Yes, I realize this is NOT something the government put in place. It was put in place because MILLIONS of spanish speaking people have invaded our country and demand that WE comply to THEIR language.

MY POINT: Everyone brush up on your spanish!



That's the point, they didn't demand anything. They simply provided a marketing opportunity and big business jumped at it.

Habla Espanol? Si! Es a muy bonita tardes en Tejas! Cervesa por favore?



I refuse to learn the language. If you want to communicate with me, you'll have to learn what we're taught in America, not Mexico.



Yes, however, I suspect this is impossible. BTW - which California are you in, the part that was settled by the British, the part that was settled by the Spanish and that America stole, or the part that was inhabited by Indians? Perhaps we should be speaking Juaneno, or Luisefio?

Consequences:

It has already been established that Americans do not want most of these jobs and/or cannot do these jobs...atleast not for the wages that they are getting paid. With the mexican immigrants gone it WILL affect your pocket book and inconvienence your existance.

I will only discuss the industries that I know first hand and will affect the majority of the US citizens even though there are countless industries that utilize illegal immigrants.

1.) Restaurant industry: how would you like to pay $20 for a cheeseburger from Chili's? I am the SR Kitchen manager for a high volume restaurant and I have hired EVERY US citizen that has applied to my kitchen. Not one of those has lasted more than 2 months most don't last 2 shifts or give notice. The restaurant business is a game of pennies and losing immigrant workers will not only drive prices up but put a lot of US citizens out of work! :(

2. Agriculture: exact same scenerio as the restaurant except you will see prices driven up at the grocery store. Everybody has to eat right.

3. Dry Cleaners: How would you like to pay $5 for a laundered shirt instead of $2...now wait a week for it instead of same day service.

4. Construction: Americans CAN NOT and WILL NOT work that hard. For those of you that live in a major city think about the last major road construction that took place. Now triple the amount of time it took to complete and that is what life would be like without our immigrants. Pizza: do remember the 75 construction in north Dallas a few years back? How long did that take...round 2 years...imagine putting up with that mess for 6 years.

Deportation is not as easy as certain people make it out to be. People think that they can just go apply and come into our country legally. Those people have no clue what it takes to become a citizen of the US. The US issues a certain number of visas every year...that number is divided amongst all of the countries that have applicants. In 2006 about 176000 were issued to mexico ( the highest number given to any country) the current wait for a mexican to get a US visa is over 8 years.

Amnesty is the only way to fix the problem...when will you wake up and smell the coffee? Amnesty with say a $10,000 attached...there are currently over 15 million illegals in the U.S. do the math. Amnesty will allow all of them to get identification, pay taxes, get auto insurance, and be in the court system and be punished like the rest of us. I just don't see the downside. :confused:



So what do these people do that leave your kitchen after a couple shifts? Does our gov't give them money not to work? What if there was no unemployment or welfare? (I'm just playing devil's advocate here.) Would people be forced to work, or would they sit around with no money, no food, no electricity, no place to live, no car, no water, no anything? And how long would that last? :confused:

I would also like to point out that in all of my dealings with mexican immigrants they have never demanded that I/we learn their language. Most are very thankful and respectful of our race.

Too bad we cannot say the same about the other major race that resides in this country. :o



I suspect that by "other major race" you mean the Morons. And it will only get worse because these are the folks that seem to breed continuously. There is a subset of this race, called the Rednecks, who drink cheap beer and eat fast food, then throw their cans and wrappers out on my street. In the end, I'm the one who cleans up after them.

I'm sorry. I don't suffer fools very well. Accordingly, I seriously doubt I will vote Republican this time around, especially after the King of the Morons and all his stupidity has been forced upon us, all in the name of Christian Conservatism.

Amnesty is the only way to fix the problem...when will you wake up and smell the coffee? Amnesty with say a $10,000 attached...there are currently over 15 million illegals in the U.S. do the math. Amnesty will allow all of them to get identification,<font color="red"> 11 states already give DL's to illegals. </font>

pay taxes, <font color="red"> Most already pay taxes because they use stolen ID's </font> get auto insurance, <font color="red"> Some get this, however several of my drivers have had fender benders with those that don't </font> and be in the court system and be punished like the rest of us.<font color="red"> They are, they just don't get deported like they should. </font> I just don't see the downside.



The downside, they broke the freaking law. Don't you know anything about the rule of law. Sure it sounds good, but we tried it back in the 80's and all it did was bring 20 million more in 20 years. Trust me, the majority of Americans are against Amnesty. Most Legal aliens and immigrants I have talked with feel the same way. One of my friends spend 10K and 10 years to become American citizens. It is not fair to him to give those that broke OUR LAWS a pass.

I would also like to point out that in all of my dealings with mexican immigrants they have never demanded that I/we learn their language. Most are very thankful and respectful of our race.

Too bad we cannot say the same about the other major race that resides in this country. :o



I suspect that by "other major race" you mean the Morons. And it will only get worse because these are the folks that seem to breed continuously. There is a subset of this race, called the Rednecks, who drink cheap beer and eat fast food, then throw their cans and wrappers out on my street. In the end, I'm the one who cleans up after them.

I'm sorry. I don't suffer fools very well. Accordingly, I seriously doubt I will vote Republican this time around, especially after the King of the Morons and all his stupidity has been forced upon us, all in the name of Christian Conservatism.



The eating fast food and drinking beer reminded me of something. Our hospitals are all being revamped. We've gotten so fat now that the hospital beds and doors aren't big enough. So, they're enlarging (can you say supersizing about a hospital?) Even more so, the hospitals are adding cranes. The patients weigh to much for the staff to move any more.

Amnesty is the only way to fix the problem...when will you wake up and smell the coffee? Amnesty with say a $10,000 attached...there are currently over 15 million illegals in the U.S. do the math. Amnesty will allow all of them to get identification,<font color="red"> 11 states already give DL's to illegals. </font>

pay taxes, <font color="red"> Most already pay taxes because they use stolen ID's </font> get auto insurance, <font color="red"> Some get this, however several of my drivers have had fender benders with those that don't </font> and be in the court system and be punished like the rest of us.<font color="red"> They are, they just don't get deported like they should. </font> I just don't see the downside.



The downside, they broke the freaking law. Don't you know anything about the rule of law. Sure it sounds good, but we tried it back in the 80's and all it did was bring 20 million more in 20 years. Trust me, the majority of Americans are against Amnesty. Most Legal aliens and immigrants I have talked with feel the same way. One of my friends spend 10K and 10 years to become American citizens. It is not fair to him to give those that broke OUR LAWS a pass.



Here's just one problem with this position.

First, if I have enough money, I can pretty much break the law with impunity. I've already given you two cases here Za. I have dozens more. Does anyone remember O.J.? Our legal system is no longer equitable. By some estimates, we kill almost as many people for the crime of being black as we do for murder. Our laws and legal system are not serving us well and the notion that someone here to earn a better life is worse than someone who rips off the American tax payer for millions of dollars is, IMO, misplaced.

Absolutely Lyle! For example, I would much rather have thousands of immigrants from Mexico doing an honest day's work than suffer the thousands of unscrupulous prosecutors who railroad innocent people into jail just because they can, for the purpose of putting a win in their column.

Mike Nifong of the Duke University Lacrosse case fame tried to do it and got caught. Too many others get away with it undetected.

70 percent of babies born at Parkland are from Illegal mothers. (http://www.snopes.com/politics/immigration/parkland.asp)

BTW, my store is located in Dallas Co. I am forced to help pay for a lot of those. Yet, if I go there, I will be expected to pay my own way.

that sucks for you man. i know the feeling. blue states have been "subsidizing" red states for years. something like $1.4 trillion more paid than received. red states have received $800 billion more than paid in. maybe i'm paying for those babies and not you after all. viva la mexican babies!

Those imigrants you speak of don't just give an honest days work. They overburden and take away from thousands of LEGAL citizens resources as legal taxpayers. Medical, and police services, even highway, housing, all sorts of things get stretched further than they were intended or designed to stretch because of them. Just a thought representing another brick in the wall...hopefully!

"In case some one of your brothers becomes poor among you in one of your cities, in your land that Jehovah your God is giving you, you must not harden your heart or be closefisted toward your poor brother. For you should generously open your hand to him and by all means lend him on pledge as much as he needs, which he is in want of... You should by all means give to him, and your heart should not be stingy in your giving to him, because on this account Jehovah your God will bless you in every deed of yours and in every undertaking of yours. For someone poor will never cease to be in the midst of the land. That is why I am commanding you, saying, 'You should generously open up your hand to your afflicted and poor brother in your land." (Deut 15:7-11).

Here is just one example of what I have seen a buddy of mine is a welder he has been making 20 a hour for the last 20 years because he says the mexicans will work for dirt! I am from Illinois and when you drive down the road and see construction you see white and black people no mexicans YET! When I was in South Carolina they had a counstruction crew that had the latest greatest thing a couple of illegals from texas. They said there company had just started to implement them and they where working out great. In my experience since I have been here I worked at a landscapeing company called Redentas Garden and they had no illegals working for them when I came there and the owner who was a draft dogger who moved to Canada during vietnam was a cheap [censored] and once he found out he could hire one he replaced all his workers in a year or so with illegals that dont even speak english I have worked at wearhouses that had mexicans that would speak spanish only and not help anyone or talk english unless the boss was around! I feel like I am being discriminated against in my own country. Since I got out of school I do not encounter this since I have a degree but I have done the dirty jobs and the only reason I would not do them now is because of the discrimination that is shown in Texas towards anyone that is not mexican!

Sorry to come off so abrasive I have really just got a bad taste in my mouth after living in the metropolis and not being accustomed to this after growing up in Illinois. Oh sorry for the bad spelling as well :D

"In case some one of your brothers becomes poor among you in one of your cities, in your land that Jehovah your God is giving you, you must not harden your heart or be closefisted toward your poor brother. For you should generously open your hand to him and by all means lend him on pledge as much as he needs, which he is in want of... You should by all means give to him, and your heart should not be stingy in your giving to him, because on this account Jehovah your God will bless you in every deed of yours and in every undertaking of yours. For someone poor will never cease to be in the midst of the land. That is why I am commanding you, saying, 'You should generously open up your hand to your afflicted and poor brother in your land." (Deut 15:7-11).



We're talking politics here, not religion. They're supposed to not be intertwined!

Here is just one example of what I have seen a buddy of mine is a welder he has been making 20 a hour for the last 20 years because he says the mexicans will work for dirt! I am from Illinois and when you drive down the road and see construction you see white and black people no mexicans YET! When I was in South Carolina they had a counstruction crew that had the latest greatest thing a couple of illegals from texas. They said there company had just started to implement them and they where working out great. In my experience since I have been here I worked at a landscapeing company called Redentas Garden and they had no illegals working for them when I came there and the owner who was a draft dogger who moved to Canada during vietnam was a cheap [censored] and once he found out he could hire one he replaced all his workers in a year or so with illegals that dont even speak english I have worked at wearhouses that had mexicans that would speak spanish only and not help anyone or talk english unless the boss was around! I feel like I am being discriminated against in my own country. Since I got out of school I do not encounter this since I have a degree but I have done the dirty jobs and the only reason I would not do them now is because of the discrimination that is shown in Texas towards anyone that is not mexican!



Your story is classic in So Cal! 90% of the landscapers and construction workers are illegals who took the job from legal citizens. I blame the company owners for this mess as that's what attracts them here in the first place. They should be fined heavily for the damage they're causing!!

"In case some one of your brothers becomes poor among you in one of your cities, in your land that Jehovah your God is giving you, you must not harden your heart or be closefisted toward your poor brother. For you should generously open your hand to him and by all means lend him on pledge as much as he needs, which he is in want of... You should by all means give to him, and your heart should not be stingy in your giving to him, because on this account Jehovah your God will bless you in every deed of yours and in every undertaking of yours. For someone poor will never cease to be in the midst of the land. That is why I am commanding you, saying, 'You should generously open up your hand to your afflicted and poor brother in your land." (Deut 15:7-11).



We're talking politics here, not religion. They're supposed to not be intertwined!



Yeah politicians leave their religious morals at the door. Oh wait that kinda explains things. :D

Consequences:

It has already been established that Americans do not want most of these jobs and/or cannot do these jobs...atleast not for the wages that they are getting paid. With the mexican immigrants gone it WILL affect your pocket book and inconvienence your existance. <font color="red">You are sadly mistaken. Are you telling me that if the illegal worker who's hosing down the McDonalds parking lot is sent back to his country that that hosing down job won't get done? I think it WILL get done. </font>

I will only discuss the industries that I know first hand and will affect the majority of the US citizens even though there are countless industries that utilize illegal immigrants. <font color="red">And they're ALL to blame - the men who hire them. They've driven down wages in ALL industries affected. </font>

1.) Restaurant industry: how would you like to pay $20 for a cheeseburger from Chili's? I am the SR Kitchen manager for a high volume restaurant and I have hired EVERY US citizen that has applied to my kitchen. Not one of those has lasted more than 2 months most don't last 2 shifts or give notice. The restaurant business is a game of pennies and losing immigrant workers will not only drive prices up but put a lot of US citizens out of work! :( <font color="red"> Maybe if they [the legal US citizens] were treated better by their upper management, they might stay! Pay them a decent salary and treat them well and you will gain loyalty! </font>

2. Agriculture: exact same scenerio as the restaurant except you will see prices driven up at the grocery store. Everybody has to eat right. <font color="red">I'm already paying more money for everything since they get free health care, free education, yet you and I must pay for it. I'd rather pay more for a head of lettuce than more for another momma to have 6 more babies in this country. </font>

3. Dry Cleaners: How would you like to pay $5 for a laundered shirt instead of $2...now wait a week for it instead of same day service. <font color="red">That's a crock. The dry cleaners I use are African Americans and have 2-day service and even pick up from my office. </font>

4. Construction: Americans CAN NOT and WILL NOT work that hard. For those of you that live in a major city think about the last major road construction that took place. Now triple the amount of time it took to complete and that is what life would be like without our immigrants. Pizza: do remember the 75 construction in north Dallas a few years back? How long did that take...round 2 years...imagine putting up with that mess for 6 years. <font color="red">Americans cannot and will not work that hard? Are you kidding me???? There's millions of unemployed construction workers out there dying to have those jobs! But again, the big bad boss pays crap and treats them badly. I say pay them well and treat them well and they will be more than happy to come to work! </font>

Deportation is not as easy as certain people make it out to be. People think that they can just go apply and come into our country legally. Those people have no clue what it takes to become a citizen of the US. The US issues a certain number of visas every year...that number is divided amongst all of the countries that have applicants. In 2006 about 176000 were issued to mexico ( the highest number given to any country) the current wait for a mexican to get a US visa is over 8 years. <font color="red">I have notarized hundreds of documents for LEGAL immigrants who have waited the time, paid the money, LEARNED THE LANGUAGE, etc. and have done all that's necessary to get here LEGALLY. I welcome those people and thank them for being patient. Why should felons who break the laws get first treatment? How fair is that? </font>

Amnesty is the only way to fix the problem...when will you wake up and smell the coffee? Amnesty with say a $10,000 attached...there are currently over 15 million illegals in the U.S. do the math. Amnesty will allow all of them to get identification, pay taxes, get auto insurance, and be in the court system and be punished like the rest of us. I just don't see the downside. :confused:



<font color="red">No, amnesty is NOT the only solution! When will YOU wake up and smell the coffee?? You obviously still have schools and hospitals and libraries open whereas So Cal does not. Hundreds of these places have closed due to overcrowding. Education system in So Cal is in the toilet because the students who refuse to learn English are taking up more time from the teacher.

BOTTOM LINE: We are rewarding FELONS by giving them jobs and attracting them to come over here. We are attracting pregnant women by giving their babies automatic citizenship. (See the article posted about that hospital in Dallas!)

If you are sick and tired of having our country overrun by FELONS, then I encourage you to click on the link in my signature and DO something about it! </font>

I'm guessing that whomever is FOR amnesty are the culprits who are hiring ILLEGALS to mow their lawns, care for their kids, clean their pools, build their fences, clean their homes, whatever it is that is stealing jobs from your fellow US citizens. You should be ashamed of yourself for exploiting poor people too and I hope you're caught and heavily fined.

70 percent of babies born at Parkland are from Illegal mothers. (http://www.snopes.com/politics/immigration/parkland.asp)

BTW, my store is located in Dallas Co. I am forced to help pay for a lot of those. Yet, if I go there, I will be expected to pay my own way.



This is absolutely OUTRAGEOUS!!! C'mon people, we have to stand up to help save this country!!! Please, please do something!!

"In case some one of your brothers becomes poor among you in one of your cities, in your land that Jehovah your God is giving you, you must not harden your heart or be closefisted toward your poor brother. For you should generously open your hand to him and by all means lend him on pledge as much as he needs, which he is in want of... You should by all means give to him, and your heart should not be stingy in your giving to him, because on this account Jehovah your God will bless you in every deed of yours and in every undertaking of yours. For someone poor will never cease to be in the midst of the land. That is why I am commanding you, saying, 'You should generously open up your hand to your afflicted and poor brother in your land." (Deut 15:7-11).



We're talking politics here, not religion. They're supposed to not be intertwined!



Yeah politicians leave their religious morals at the door. Oh wait that kinda explains things. :D



What religious morals? There's more corruption going on in churches all over the country! There's priests raping kids, preachers using the tithing money for their own purposes and a lot of it is on prostitutes and drugs. Don't you read the papers? I distrust bible thumpers way more than any politician.

"In case some one of your brothers becomes poor among you in one of your cities, in your land that Jehovah your God is giving you, you must not harden your heart or be closefisted toward your poor brother. For you should generously open your hand to him and by all means lend him on pledge as much as he needs, which he is in want of... You should by all means give to him, and your heart should not be stingy in your giving to him, because on this account Jehovah your God will bless you in every deed of yours and in every undertaking of yours. For someone poor will never cease to be in the midst of the land. That is why I am commanding you, saying, 'You should generously open up your hand to your afflicted and poor brother in your land." (Deut 15:7-11).



We're talking politics here, not religion. They're supposed to not be intertwined!



Yeah politicians leave their religious morals at the door. Oh wait that kinda explains things. :D



What religious morals? There's more corruption going on in churches all over the country! There's priests raping kids, preachers using the tithing money for their own purposes and a lot of it is on prostitutes and drugs. Don't you read the papers? I distrust bible thumpers way more than any politician.



Never said I disagreed I just believe that maybe if more politicians were like you "average good church person" we would be better off. Heck I don't even go to church and still believe this.

quote]

Absolutely Lyle! For example, I would much rather have thousands of immigrants from Mexico doing an honest day's work than suffer the thousands of unscrupulous prosecutors...


[/QUOTE]

Those imigrants you speak of don't just give an honest days work. They overburden and take away from thousands of LEGAL citizens resources as legal taxpayers. Medical, and police services, even highway, housing, all sorts of things get stretched further than they were intended or designed to stretch because of them. Just a thought representing another brick in the wall...hopefully!



<font color="green"> sorry if I assumed incorrectly that you meant "undocumented" when you said "imagrant" back there. That was the interpretation of it I was responding to. Come to America, one and all, just do it legally IMO. Does anyone know the number of legal imagrants the USA allows every year? Wonder how many it would be if there weren't so many illegal ones... </font>

Your story is classic in So Cal! 90% of the landscapers and construction workers are illegals who took the job from legal citizens. I blame the company owners for this mess as that's what attracts them here in the first place. They should be fined heavily for the damage they're causing!!

<font color="green"> Kinda like dealers, but in humans. Stop the dealer, stop the flow. I agree, the owners have to be stopped. They aren't punished enough, so what do they have to fear? They pay a fine, slap on the wrist, and back to business.</font>

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Immigration By the Numbers ~ Part 1

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Immigration By the Numbers ~ Part 2

Anyone interested in the immigrant situation should watch these two clips. Warning.....the numbers can be quite disturbing.

Wow, those **** immigrants will be the end of us all. I am sure they are behind every problem.

We have played this scene out countless times in America. The only thing that changes are the bashers and bashees. Those who were once bashed, now bash, then go on long tedious explanations on why their immigrant forefathers were different. If they were at all, it was only to a very small degree. Most immigrants since the nineteenth century have come here for economic opportunity. They not only want to come here, but are invited by an economy which demands them, whether they are given an official welcome paper is beside the point, the economy still demands their participation. This immigration cycle is no different.

Check out that tie.

Wow, those **** immigrants will be the end of us all. I am sure they are behind every problem.

We have played this scene out countless times in America. The only thing that changes are the bashers and bashees. Those who were once bashed, now bash, then go on long tedious explanations on why their immigrant forefathers were different. If they were at all, it was only to a very small degree. Most immigrants since the nineteenth century have come here for economic opportunity. They not only want to come here, but are invited by an economy which demands them, whether they are given an official welcome paper is beside the point, the economy still demands their participation. This immigration cycle is no different.



Come on walking across the border and coming into the country legally are to diffrent things. Beside coming illegally and demanding anything that tax payers cant even get is a crock!

anyone else hear that Barack Hussien Obama is a muslim and
was raised by an extreme muslim radical father... went to school at in Indonesia at a Wahabist school (Wahabism is the RADICAL teaching that is followed by the Muslim terrorists who are now waging Jihad against the western world)

Other things are that he used a koran instead of a bible when getting sworn into office and he will NOT recite the Pledge of Allegiance nor will he show any reverence for our flag. While others place their hands over their hearts, Obama turns his back to the flag and slouches.

I doubted a lot of this at first but it can be confirmed on snopes and other websites.

just thought it to be very interesting

probably would still vote for him over Hillary though ;)

Come on walking across the border and coming into the country legally are to diffrent things.


I understand this argument, but it it is not persuasive to me. It's splitting hairs, and it completely ignores the fundamental forces driving what is occuring. The immigration fluxes have always been in response to an economy (and thereby the country imo) demanding it. The fact that presently, the process for legal entry is more difficult than it was for the Irish or the Italians is almost irrelevant, imo. The immigrants are coming to fulfill an economic need, just like the countless times before. Most of these immigrants are ambitious, hard-working folks, just the kind we should welcome, not shun.

I hope my sarcasm meter is out.

anyone else hear that Barack Hussien Obama is a muslim and
was raised by an extreme muslim radical father... went to school at in Indonesia at a Wahabist school (Wahabism is the RADICAL teaching that is followed by the Muslim terrorists who are now waging Jihad against the western world)

Other things are that he used a koran instead of a bible when getting sworn into office and he will NOT recite the Pledge of Allegiance nor will he show any reverence for our flag. While others place their hands over their hearts, Obama turns his back to the flag and slouches.

I doubted a lot of this at first but it can be confirmed on snopes and other websites.

just thought it to be very interesting

probably would still vote for him over Hillary though ;)




Geez, have you checked out Snopes before saying they confirm everything?
Snopes' page on Obama (http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/obama.asp)

Educate yourself before making ignorant statements - Snopes stands completely opposite of what you say.

While there is a pic of him not covering his heart, he doesn't always not cover it during the anthem. For the record, I never cover my heart during the anthem either (old baseball habit...I stand with head bowed and both hands holding my hat down in front of me). Guess I'm not a good American...

Come on walking across the border and coming into the country legally are to diffrent things.


I understand this argument, but it it is not persuasive to me. It's splitting hairs, and it completely ignores the fundamental forces driving what is occuring. The immigration fluxes have always been in response to an economy (and thereby the country imo) demanding it. The fact that presently, the process for legal entry is more difficult than it was for the Irish or the Italians is almost irrelevant, imo. The immigrants are coming to fulfill an economic need, just like the countless times before. Most of these immigrants are ambitious, hard-working folks, just the kind we should welcome, not shun.



This statement is why even though I often enough disagree with James, I respect him greatly. We don't even think about what these people are.

BTW - the concept that these people pay no taxes is ludicrous beyond belief. They put a whole lot more taxes into our system than the rich do.

anyone else hear that Barack Hussien Obama is a muslim and
was raised by an extreme muslim radical father... went to school at in Indonesia at a Wahabist school (Wahabism is the RADICAL teaching that is followed by the Muslim terrorists who are now waging Jihad against the western world)

Other things are that he used a koran instead of a bible when getting sworn into office and he will NOT recite the Pledge of Allegiance nor will he show any reverence for our flag. While others place their hands over their hearts, Obama turns his back to the flag and slouches.

I doubted a lot of this at first but it can be confirmed on snopes and other websites.

just thought it to be very interesting

probably would still vote for him over Hillary though ;)




Geez, have you checked out Snopes before saying they confirm everything?
Snopes' page on Obama (http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/obama.asp)

Educate yourself before making ignorant statements - Snopes stands completely opposite of what you say.

While there is a pic of him not covering his heart, he doesn't always not cover it during the anthem. For the record, I never cover my heart during the anthem either (old baseball habit...I stand with head bowed and both hands holding my hat down in front of me). Guess I'm not a good American...



I want to add to this. What they did to Hillary was awful, she was judged based on her looks. Rude and immature, but still legal. What is being done here is illegal. It's racism pure and simple. Why anyone would propagate this or give it any mind is beyond me.

It does make one thing clear. The ever present trumpeting on the part of conservatives in this country that we've solved the racism problem is the braying of donkeys who are thinking with their backsides...

"In case some one of your brothers becomes poor among you in one of your cities, in your land that Jehovah your God is giving you, you must not harden your heart or be closefisted toward your poor brother. For you should generously open your hand to him and by all means lend him on pledge as much as he needs, which he is in want of... You should by all means give to him, and your heart should not be stingy in your giving to him, because on this account Jehovah your God will bless you in every deed of yours and in every undertaking of yours. For someone poor will never cease to be in the midst of the land. That is why I am commanding you, saying, 'You should generously open up your hand to your afflicted and poor brother in your land." (Deut 15:7-11).



We're talking politics here, not religion. They're supposed to not be intertwined!



Yeah politicians leave their religious morals at the door. Oh wait that kinda explains things. :D



What religious morals? There's more corruption going on in churches all over the country! There's priests raping kids, preachers using the tithing money for their own purposes and a lot of it is on prostitutes and drugs. Don't you read the papers? I distrust bible thumpers way more than any politician.



Never said I disagreed I just believe that maybe if more politicians were like you "average good church person" we would be better off. Heck I don't even go to church and still believe this.



I think you and I have a very different experience with the religious. While I have found many that are good, all to often I've found their leaders and those who have moved into politics to be fairly scummy. I think I'd refer to it as, "the ends justify the means."

Of course many of them who end up in politics aren't really religious, they get religion for the sole purpose of credibility and a ready made voting block. Take GWBush for example. He was a beer drinkin' coke snortin' good ol' boy until he decided to go into politics. Now, he's a Saint... /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif That is a lying, stealing Saint.

Come on walking across the border and coming into the country legally are to diffrent things.


I understand this argument, but it it is not persuasive to me. It's splitting hairs, and it completely ignores the fundamental forces driving what is occuring. The immigration fluxes have always been in response to an economy (and thereby the country imo) demanding it. The fact that presently, the process for legal entry is more difficult than it was for the Irish or the Italians is almost irrelevant, imo. The immigrants are coming to fulfill an economic need, just like the countless times before. Most of these immigrants are ambitious, hard-working folks, just the kind we should welcome, not shun.



I think that is BS the owners of the comany are the reason they come across the boarder oh and dont forget the ***** hole they come from that is all screwed up economically oh and you can just reproduce and we will pay for it! What about all the gang bangers and other criminals that come across the boarder! I am not saying that things are black and white I have met very nice illegal imagrants but more so in the working field's I have been in it is a diffrent story about the rich company owner trying to make a buck not that they cant find work!

Take GWBush for example. He was a beer drinkin' coke snortin' good ol' boy until he decided to go into politics.



You forgot AWOL-bein', daddy put me in the guard hidin'.

border security (http://www.comedycentral.com/sitewide/game_player/index.jhtml?game=148265)

Never said I disagreed I just believe that maybe if more politicians were like you "average good church person" we would be better off. Heck I don't even go to church and still believe this.



I don't go to church unless it's for a wedding or a funeral. I'm a recovering catholic. But I am just an average good person who believes in karma. Now we're getting off the beaten path here - this is about who our next president should be to clean up the mess of the past 20 years. There's other threads on religion.

Wow, those **** immigrants will be the end of us all. I am sure they are behind every problem.

We have played this scene out countless times in America. The only thing that changes are the bashers and bashees. Those who were once bashed, now bash, then go on long tedious explanations on why their immigrant forefathers were different. If they were at all, it was only to a very small degree. Most immigrants since the nineteenth century have come here for economic opportunity. They not only want to come here, but are invited by an economy which demands them, whether they are given an official welcome paper is beside the point, the economy still demands their participation. This immigration cycle is no different.



Come on walking across the border and coming into the country legally are to diffrent things. Beside coming illegally and demanding anything that tax payers cant even get is a crock!



VERY WELL PUT! I APPLAUD YOU!

Come on walking across the border and coming into the country legally are to diffrent things.


The immigrants are coming to fulfill an economic need, just like the countless times before. Most of these immigrants are ambitious, hard-working folks, just the kind we should welcome, not shun.



I'm NOT shunning them, I'm just asking them to stand in line like the millions coming here before them and the millions wanting to learn the language! The ILLEGALS in So Cal are always in an uproar DEMANDING free education and free medical and free everything... AT THE TAXPAYERS' EXPENSE!

They stand on the corners surrounding my office and while they're waiting for the scumbag trucks to pick them up for work, they do all kinds of foul things like pee on the sidewalks in broad daylight! They're gambling tossing coins against the walls, throwing their trash all over the streets, painting graffiti on the walls of the other businesses, leering at the women driving by, all kinds of FOUL behaviour. And it makes me so mad that they get to do that and no one cares!!! I can't respect any of those guys!!!

Come on walking across the border and coming into the country legally are to diffrent things.


The immigrants are coming to fulfill an economic need, just like the countless times before. Most of these immigrants are ambitious, hard-working folks, just the kind we should welcome, not shun.



I'm NOT shunning them, I'm just asking them to stand in line like the millions coming here before them and the millions wanting to learn the language! The ILLEGALS in So Cal are always in an uproar DEMANDING free education and free medical and free everything... AT THE TAXPAYERS' EXPENSE!

They stand on the corners surrounding my office and while they're waiting for the scumbag trucks to pick them up for work, they do all kinds of foul things like pee on the sidewalks in broad daylight! They're gambling tossing coins against the walls, throwing their trash all over the streets, painting graffiti on the walls of the other businesses, leering at the women driving by, all kinds of FOUL behaviour. And it makes me so mad that they get to do that and no one cares!!! I can't respect any of those guys!!!


Now that was well put! It is making me loose respect for the USA when they let these illigals walk all over there citizens like that! Where4 is there back bone bunch of bleeding heart's!

Big E, I don't get it either!! I can only assume that the folks wanting amnesty are the GUILTY scumbags who exploit them for cheap labor!!! Otherwise, WHY on earth would they continue to support this felonous behaviour?

I just got an email from NUMBERS USA:


<font color="red"> Our opposition didn't wait long to strike again. We knocked down Amnesty bill after Amnesty bill last year. But with the recent success of pro-amnesty Presidential candidates they are emboldened to try again.

The powerful Hispanic Caucus of the U.S. House of Representatives appears to be convincing the House Democratic leadership to go along with their deceptive measure.

Under this bill:

1) Millions of Illegal Aliens would qualify for "five-year" amnesties.

2) Crooked employers who have knowingly hired Illegal Aliens would be given complete immunity from prosecution.

3) The purpose of this new Amnesty is to FOOL the American Voter into believing this is a temporary measure. In fact, the intention of this Amnesty is to make Illegal Aliens undeportable until what they believe will be the second term of a pro-amnesty President. In the face of this stunning threat, we are taking the gloves off! Hundreds of thousands of faxes will be sent. Thousands of phone calls. Ads up everywhere. Intense lobbying efforts. We must NOT lose this battle, or a terrible trend will begin.</font>

Big E, I don't get it either!! I can only assume that the folks wanting amnesty are the GUILTY scumbags who exploit them for cheap labor!!! Otherwise, WHY on earth would they continue to support this felonous behaviour?



Nice. Glad to know what you think of everybody who lives in the real world.

What programs/spending, pray tell, do you suggest government officials cut in order to pay for the deportation of the 15 million or so illegal immigrants?

wow, what an active thread today

What programs/spending, pray tell, do you suggest government officials cut in order to pay for the deportation of the 15 million or so illegal immigrants?


Easy, FINE THE PEOPLE WHO ARE HIRING THESE ILLEGALS. Money problem solved.

"In case some one of your brothers becomes poor among you in one of your cities, in your land that Jehovah your God is giving you, you must not harden your heart or be closefisted toward your poor brother. For you should generously open your hand to him and by all means lend him on pledge as much as he needs, which he is in want of... You should by all means give to him, and your heart should not be stingy in your giving to him, because on this account Jehovah your God will bless you in every deed of yours and in every undertaking of yours. For someone poor will never cease to be in the midst of the land. That is why I am commanding you, saying, 'You should generously open up your hand to your afflicted and poor brother in your land." (Deut 15:7-11).


Yes, I believe this, but this does not mean the GOVERNMENT taxes you to do this. We are taxed over 50 percent of our income so we can give to others.

I say to first stop sending money overseas to countries that pretend to be our friends.

2nd, why do we have 75k forces in Europe, bring them home

3rd, why do we have 700 bases in 130 countries. Lets start shutting them down.

4th, why are we antagonizing the middle east. We have 14 bases in Iraq. Look what the one base in Saudi Arabia got us. [9/11 if you didn't already know, one of the 3 reasons bin Laden cited.]

"In case some one of your brothers becomes poor among you in one of your cities, in your land that Jehovah your God is giving you, you must not harden your heart or be closefisted toward your poor brother. For you should generously open your hand to him and by all means lend him on pledge as much as he needs, which he is in want of... You should by all means give to him, and your heart should not be stingy in your giving to him, because on this account Jehovah your God will bless you in every deed of yours and in every undertaking of yours. For someone poor will never cease to be in the midst of the land. That is why I am commanding you, saying, 'You should generously open up your hand to your afflicted and poor brother in your land." (Deut 15:7-11).


Yes, I believe this, but this does not mean the GOVERNMENT taxes you to do this. We are taxed over 50 percent of our income so we can give to others.

<font color="red"> Come on Za, you know this isn't true.</font>

I say to first stop sending money overseas to countries that pretend to be our friends.


<font color="red"> Agreed! However, we're not making gifts, we're making money for the rich.
</font>
2nd, why do we have 75k forces in Europe, bring them home

<font color="red"> Agreed, but then who would those European hotties have to hit on them? </font>

3rd, why do we have 700 bases in 130 countries. Lets start shutting them down.

<font color="red"> Agreed, but then, how would we support the industrial military complex that gives so freely to our politicians? </font>

4th, why are we antagonizing the middle east. We have 14 bases in Iraq. Look what the one base in Saudi Arabia got us. [9/11 if you didn't already know, one of the 3 reasons bin Laden cited.]

<font color="red"> That'd be for Oil... </font>

wow, what an active thread today

What programs/spending, pray tell, do you suggest government officials cut in order to pay for the deportation of the 15 million or so illegal immigrants?


Easy, FINE THE PEOPLE WHO ARE HIRING THESE ILLEGALS. Money problem solved.



Next question, How do you pay for the investigators to determine who is hiring the illegals?

Plus, do you realize that your solution forces the government to float a budget until the people pay up (if they can pay up...if they can't does the government confiscate businesses?)

This discussion is kinda like the "We can do it better than the PDGA" one.

Lots and lots of thoughts about what needs to be done, but very few are grounded in the real world, especially when it comes to costs.

First things first we need to build the fence that is already paid for! Then we can talk about the illegal here. I think if you commit a crime or don�t work you should go with out question! If you do contribute maybe work something out I don�t have the answer but I know we need to stop people from just coming into this country illegally!

Where do you build the fence in Texas?

On our side of the Rio Grande? Cuts off our water supply.
On their side? Cuts off their water supply.
Down the middle of the river? Impractical, if not impossible.

Are there enough funds to pay for patrols along the fence? (Probably not.)
Are there enough agents to patrol? (Given what I see at local PD's -- who can't fill all their employment vacancies, I'd say no.)


It's easy to state the problem. Not so easy to have a workable solution.

wow, what an active thread today

What programs/spending, pray tell, do you suggest government officials cut in order to pay for the deportation of the 15 million or so illegal immigrants?


Easy, FINE THE PEOPLE WHO ARE HIRING THESE ILLEGALS. Money problem solved.



GOOD ANSWER! They're the ones who created this mess in the first place. 2ndly I would cut the funds used at hospitals to take care of the birth and care of their ILLEGAL children and next the money used to fund ER rooms across the US that they use for their medical care. There. Problem solved!

Where do you build the fence in Texas?

On our side of the Rio Grande? Cuts off our water supply.
On their side? Cuts off their water supply.
Down the middle of the river? Impractical, if not impossible.

Are there enough funds to pay for patrols along the fence? (Probably not.)
Are there enough agents to patrol? (Given what I see at local PD's -- who can't fill all their employment vacancies, I'd say no.)


It's easy to state the problem. Not so easy to have a workable solution.



That's a piece of cake! Is that river in the US? Then the fence cuts off their supply. Is it in Mexico? Then cuts off our side.

There's plenty of money there once this new president is in place and brings back the TRILLIONS of tax dollars being "spent" in Iraq and other places we've invaded, every month. There's also TRILLIONS being stolen from US funds so let's STOP sending money over there, IMMEDIATELY!!

Money was already earmarked to build this fence but it was taken again and sent to be wasted and/or stolen by thieves in Iraq.

So today I got my bonus check of $2,250. After taxes, I get to keep $1,288. Of that, I have to pay property taxes of $1,067.00. So after all my hard work this year, I get a whopping $221! And guess where these property taxes are going? To the local schools and community colleges of which I do not attend, nor have kids who attend! Only $.09 is going for flood control. So aint that just grand that on top of my own school loan I pay every month for the rest of my life of $480, Uncle Sam is asking me to support my local schools and colleges. Gee, I wonder who's tuition I'm paying???? It sure isn't mine! If you're a property owner, paying even more taxes than the rest will probably get to you too! And knowing where it's going just makes me even more mad. If it were going to build a fence and kick out the ILLEGAL immigrants, I'd be much happier about forking over my hard earned cash!

Okay, I'm off to spend my whopping $221!!! :mad::(

Next question, How do you pay for the investigators to determine who is hiring the illegals?

Plus, do you realize that your solution forces the government to float a budget until the people pay up (if they can pay up...if they can't does the government confiscate businesses?)


<font color="red"> What are you talking about, they are already there. They are just not doing there job. BTW it is ICE that is responsible for this. If you eliminate the jobs they are getting, they will not come. Then you can fill those jobs with people who ARE here legaly.

Oh, I like the 'force the goverment to float the bill' With a nearly 10 TRILLON DOLLAR DEBT that is funny.

And yes, the government will close your business. It happens all he time. Just not enough in my opinion. Those that knowingly hire illegal immigrant should be put in jail. But that is my opinion.
</font>

Where do you build the fence in Texas?

On our side of the Rio Grande? Cuts off our water supply.
On their side? Cuts off their water supply.
Down the middle of the river? Impractical, if not impossible.

Are there enough funds to pay for patrols along the fence? (Probably not.)
Are there enough agents to patrol? (Given what I see at local PD's -- who can't fill all their employment vacancies, I'd say no.)


It's easy to state the problem. Not so easy to have a workable solution.



That's a piece of cake! Is that river in the US? Then the fence cuts off their supply. Is it in Mexico? Then cuts off our side.

There's plenty of money there once this new president is in place and brings back the TRILLIONS of tax dollars being "spent" in Iraq and other places we've invaded, every month. There's also TRILLIONS being stolen from US funds so let's STOP sending money over there, IMMEDIATELY!!

Money was already earmarked to build this fence but it was taken again and sent to be wasted and/or stolen by thieves in Iraq.



Someone needs to study up on their geography and history of the Rio Grande. The border IS the river. And rivers move over time. Plus since it's a desert river, it can and will flash flood, taking everything in its path with it. I doubt there is enough money marked to build a fence strong enough and yet mobile enough to adjust as the border changes year after year after year. Study some logistics and engineering too while you are at it. I suggest your local community college.

And if you think the next president (whoever it is) is going to abrupt change US foreign policy, you're living in...oh wait, you actually are living in LaLa Land. Any pull back won't be immediate and it won't be all-encompassing...again, logistics and history.

Where do you build the fence in Texas?

On our side of the Rio Grande? Cuts off our water supply.
On their side? Cuts off their water supply.
Down the middle of the river? Impractical, if not impossible.

Are there enough funds to pay for patrols along the fence? (Probably not.)
Are there enough agents to patrol? (Given what I see at local PD's -- who can't fill all their employment vacancies, I'd say no.)


It's easy to state the problem. Not so easy to have a workable solution.



That's a piece of cake! Is that river in the US? Then the fence cuts off their supply. Is it in Mexico? Then cuts off our side.

<font color="red">I'm pretty sure it we each own half of it. Oh and please tell me you weren't being serious, I mean we learn that in elementary school. </font>

There's plenty of money there once this new president is in place and brings back the TRILLIONS of tax dollars being "spent" in Iraq and other places we've invaded, every month. There's also TRILLIONS being stolen from US funds so let's STOP sending money over there, IMMEDIATELY!!

Money was already earmarked to build this fence but it was taken again and sent to be wasted and/or stolen by thieves in Iraq.

For those that don't already know, the Boarder fence in Texas would be several miles in from the Rio Grande. The problem comes in that some of the land owners use the water from the Rio Grand to irrigate and to water cattle.

However, the Boarder fence DOES NOT follow the whole boarder. It actually was to be built in the areas that have boarder crossing problems.

In other areas, there were going to be heat sensors and cameras.

But there was one town they were wanting to run the wall cutting off part of the town on the river side.

So today I got my bonus check of $2,250. After taxes, I get to keep $1,288. Of that, I have to pay property taxes of $1,067.00. So after all my hard work this year, I get a whopping $221! And guess where these property taxes are going? To the local schools and community colleges of which I do not attend, nor have kids who attend! Only $.09 is going for flood control. So aint that just grand that on top of my own school loan I pay every month for the rest of my life of $480, Uncle Sam is asking me to support my local schools and colleges. Gee, I wonder who's tuition I'm paying???? It sure isn't mine! If you're a property owner, paying even more taxes than the rest will probably get to you too! And knowing where it's going just makes me even more mad. If it were going to build a fence and kick out the ILLEGAL immigrants, I'd be much happier about forking over my hard earned cash!

Okay, I'm off to spend my whopping $221!!! :mad::(



just to put things into perspective... my wife and I both work at a school and dont get bonuses at all... we'd be happy to get 221 before taxes let alone 1288! I know we could've chosen a different place to work but just wanted to put that out there since you labeled the schools that you dont even go to as a place thats taking your money

to complain that you have tax dollars going to places you dont use is like saying you dont know why your tax dollars are going to pay for a firefighter station since you've never had a fire before. There are a ton of public services and other items that get paid for that the cost needs to be split up. I dont have to drive on highways except maybe once in a month or so but im not complaining about my money going to those roads.

not saying it doesnt suck having money taken from you like that ... just trying to put out a different perspective.

Fire Department, police, Libraries and City services are paid for out of Property Taxes. Those should not be confused by Income Taxes.

Gas taxes, Drivers License fees, plus auto license fees pay for Roads and bridges. Those should also not be confused by Income Taxes.

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wow, what an active thread today

What programs/spending, pray tell, do you suggest government officials cut in order to pay for the deportation of the 15 million or so illegal immigrants?


Easy, FINE THE PEOPLE WHO ARE HIRING THESE ILLEGALS. Money problem solved.



GOOD ANSWER! They're the ones who created this mess in the first place. 2ndly I would cut the funds used at hospitals to take care of the birth and care of their ILLEGAL children and next the money used to fund ER rooms across the US that they use for their medical care. There. Problem solved!



Geez, everything is so simple isn't it. That must be why Strong armed, closed minded, act without thinking, presidential hopefulls like Paul, Huckabee, and Romney are getting elected. :p

Oh, and if they are born here they are not illegal,(even though you think they should be) its in the constitution.

Oh, and if they are born here they are not illegal,(even though you think they should be) its in the constitution.



The 14th Amendment to the Constitution says

Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.


This is a classic case of where the intent did not match the means. (a common problem with government laws)

After the Civil War the 13th Amendment was Ratified in 1865. This Amendment (long overdue) basically freed the slaves still left in involuntary servitude. But it did not address what was to be done with all the freed slaves.

In 1857, the Supreme Court Ruled in the Dred Scott case. They ruled that people of African descent, whether free or slaves, could not become citizens of the United States.

So after the 13th Amendment, there were former slaves (mostly black) running around and were not citizens. They had no rights.

in 1866, Congress pass the Civil Rights act of 1866, this gave all the former slaves rights: make contracts, sue, bear witness in court and own private property.

Ironically, this was Vetoed by Andrew Johnson, but over ruled by the Republican Congress.

Not only did this Act make all the former Slaves Citizens, but it insured there children citizenship by saying they would be citizens by being born here.

Now because this was an Act, it could have been overturn by the Supreme Court, so included in the 14th amendments was that part of the clause.

So in 1868 the 14th Amendment gave anyone who was born under US law citizenship. Of course it excluded Indians, they were not considered under US jurisdiction even though they were born on US soil. Children of Diplomats were also not under US jurisdiction.

Now in 1898, the Supreme Court ruled in the Wong Kim Ark case that anyone born in the US was now a citizen.

The Supreme court has NEVER ruled that children of Illegal Aliens are citizens. It has only been assumed. When this case and laws were enacted, there were no immigration laws like there are now.

But with the wording of the 14th amendment, only another amendment can insure any law passed to stop anchor babies will hold up in court.

In other words, they can pass a bill right now that would define an illegal alien children as not becoming citizens, but the court could rule the law against the constitution as written.

therefor another Amendment is needed to spell it out.

The provisions in Section 1 have been interpreted to the effect that children born on United States soil, with very few exceptions, are U.S. citizens. This type of guarantee�legally termed jus soli, or "right of the territory"� does not exist in most of Europe or Asia, although it is part of English common law and is common in the Americas

For those that don't already know, the Boarder fence in Texas would be several miles in from the Rio Grande. The problem comes in that some of the land owners use the water from the Rio Grand to irrigate and to water cattle.

However, the Boarder fence DOES NOT follow the whole boarder. It actually was to be built in the areas that have boarder crossing problems.

In other areas, there were going to be heat sensors and cameras.

But there was one town they were wanting to run the wall cutting off part of the town on the river side.



Wow, I learned two things.

1. Where the fence was scheduled to go. Nice that people think having a DMZ is a good thing. I mean look at places that have had or currently do have them. All great spots. Cold War Berlin, 60's Vietnam, the Korean peninsula...

2. Bryan can't spell b-o-r-d-e-r. Either that or the fence is supposed to eliminate bed &amp; breakfast establishments.

read all about it (http://www.centralohio.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/BA/20080218/NEWS03/80218011/1002)

MILITARY DEATHS FOR TWENTY YEARS

These are some rather eye-opening facts: Since the start of the war on terror in Iraq and Afghanistan, the sacrifice has been enormous. In the time period from the invasion of Iraq in March 2003 through now, we have lost over 3000 military personnel to enemy action and accidents.

As tragic as the loss of any member of the US Armed Forces is, consider the following statistics: The annual fatalities of military members while actively serving in the armed forces from 1980 through 2006:

1980 .......... 2,392
1981 ......... 2,380
1984 .......... 1,999
1988 .......... 1,819
1989 .......... 1,636
1990 ......... 1,508
1991 ......... 1,787
1992 .......... 1,293----------------------------------------------------
1993 ......... 1,213
1994 .......... 1,075
1995 ..........2,465
1996 ......... 2,318 Clinton years @ 13,417 deaths
1997 .......... 817
1998 ......... 2,252
1999 .......... 1,984 -------------------------------------------------
2000 .......... 1,983
2001 .......... 890
2002 .......... 1,007 7 BUSH years @ 9,016 deaths
2003 ......... 1,410
2004 .......... 1,887
2005 ......... 919
2006.......... 920
----------------------------------------------------------
If you are c onfused when you look at these figures...so was I.

Do these figures mean that the loss from the two latest conflicts in the Middle East are LESS than the loss of military personnel during Mr. Clinton's presidency; when America wasn't even involved in a war?



And, I was even more impressed; when I read that in 1980, during the reign of President (Nobel Peace Prize) Jimmy Carter, there were 2,392 US military
fatalities!

These figures indicate that many of our Media &amp; Politicians pick and choose. They present only those "facts" which support their agenda-driven reporting.

Why do so many of them march in lock-step to twist the truth.

Where do so many of them get their marching-orders for their agenda?

Our Mainstream Print and TV media, and many Politicians like to slant; that these brave men and women, who are losing their lives in Iraq, are mostly
minorities! Wrong AGAIN! The latest census, of Americans, shows the following distribution of American citizens, by Race:

European descent (White) ....... 69.12%
Hispanic ............................... 12.5%
Black..................................... 12.3%
Asian ..................................... 3.7%
Native American .................... . 1.0%
Other ..................................... 2.6%

Now... here are the fatalities by Race; over the past three years in Iraqi Freedom:

European descent (white) ..... 74 .31%
Hispanic ............................. 10.74%
Black .................................. 9.67%
Asian ................................ . 1.81%
Native American ................... 1.09%
Other ................................... .33%

You do the Math! These figures don't lie... but, the Media chooses to ignore the facts...and they sway public opinion! (These statistics are published by Congressional Research Service, and they may be confirmed by anyone at:

&lt;http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/RL32492.pdf&gt;
&lt;http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/RL32492.pdf&gt;



Now ask yourself these two questions:

"Why does the mainstream Print and TV Media never print statistics like these?" and "Why do the mainstream media hate the web as much as they do?" Because the mainstream media is controlled by Liberals who have an agenda that is not supported by publication of these facts.

Bottom Line? Do your own research and do not be swayed by what you see on TV or read in most newspapers.

Then, regardless of your party, go to the polls and cast your own vote!

I'll let Lyle point out that the media is not controlled by Liberals. Unless Ruppert Murdoch is a closet blue-stater...

To state that "the US wasn't even involved in a war" during Clinton's terms is misleading. Are you forgetting the UN missions in the chaos-ridden Slavic nations? Bosnia, Serbia, Croatia, Kosovo? I wonder if your source counts Korea or Vietnam for Truman through Nixon, since the US never officially declared war in either conflict.

Those numbers are more indicative of the US foreign policy of being "policeman of the world" than the ability of any president or party. Clinton was president when many of the former Soviet satellite nations got over the initial happiness of freedom and had to figure out how to be their own countries. Civil war, genocide, attempted communist or military takeovers meant a lot of time served for the US military in a place that is like Afghanistan, but with less sand.


And I've never heard anyone say that minorities are the majority of those losing their life in the service. Guess I don't watch enough TV.

"Why does the mainstream Print and TV Media never print statistics like these?"

<font color="green"> /what newscast were you watching before the "surge"? :confused: </font>

If CNN could only get a bigger death count, it would be headline news. I'm NOT joking.

Closet Bluestater Murdoch (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/05/09/politics/main1600694.shtml)

more murdoch news (http://www.newsmax.com/insidecover/murdoch_hillary/2008/02/04/70015.html)

Oh god, I don't think I have ever heard anything this corny. No wonder her campaign is going down the tubes

<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/5FvyGydc8no&rel=1"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/5FvyGydc8no&rel=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>

That replaces the "superbowl shuffle" as the cheesiest video ever!

Mr. Bender, the ideal solution to the immigration problem is to enforce the laws currently on the books.

It would take the police no longer releasing Aliens back out on the street, actually fining companies that hire illegals.

No more sanctuary cities.

More cities like Farmers Branch and Irving. Both are doing something (and getting sued for it) Carrollton looked at it but it looks like they chickened out. (at least until I get elected on the council)

Farmers Branch passed a code that said landlords could not rent to illegals. Makes sense right? They currently have 3 or 4 lawsuits against them for it. 3 that I know of have already been thrown out.

Irving is turning undocumented aliens over to ICE. If someone gets pulled over in Irving and does not have proof of who they are, they will be arrested for it and will have to have someone bring proof of who they are or they will be turned over to ICE. (I am assuming they are still doing it)

Early Voting starts today (well in 8 hours)

I have to go put signs out for Ron Paul at the 2 Carrollton early voting locations. :D

Mr. Bender, the ideal solution to the immigration problem is to enforce the laws currently on the books.



Except the ship sailed a very long time ago to enforce current laws. And police departments (down here at least) are so understaffed that they have trouble filling their patrol rosters each day, so asking them to ID everybody (which smacks a little of Soviet Russia, IMO) isn't going to happen.

Again, you can't put the toothpaste back into the tube. Well, you can but it costs a lot more versus just going out and buying a new tube.

I received this from NUMBERS USA today. All it takes to communicate with your state politicians is just a click away! Especially if you're one of the millions out of a job right now, you will be interested to read this:

<font color="black"> Tell your Congressmen that America doesn't need more foreign workers!

This new fax has been posted in your Action Buffet based on your answers to the Interest Survey.

You can find this fax by proceeding to
http://www.numbersusa.com/faxes?ID=9576

Both the Democratic and Republican leadership of U.S. House and Senate are right now conspiring to bring legislation to the floor to greatly expand the pool of foreign labor in this country -- even as they talk about the need for taxpayers to provide more unemployment compensation for all the Americans who are losing their jobs.

CEOs and lobbying interests for big business are clamoring for more foreign workers, and it seems that Congress is listening. THIS MUST BE STOPPED!

Send a fax to your Congressmen and make sure they know that America has plenty of unemployed workers to fill any open jobs.

Do you want more or less information?
As a NumbersUSA subscriber, you will receive occasional emails about immigration-related opportunities. If you want to increase or reduce the frequency of these emails, click here and choose from Total Activism, Moderate Activism, or Limited Activism at the bottom of your registration form: http://www.numbersusa.com/user

NumbersUSA - relies upon individuals like you to reach its goal of an environmentally sustainable and economically just America.


Numbers USA
1601 N. Kent Street
Suite 1100
Arlington, VA 22209
</font>

Where do you build the fence in Texas?

On our side of the Rio Grande? Cuts off our water supply.
On their side? Cuts off their water supply.
Down the middle of the river? Impractical, if not impossible.

Are there enough funds to pay for patrols along the fence? (Probably not.)
Are there enough agents to patrol? (Given what I see at local PD's -- who can't fill all their employment vacancies, I'd say no.)


It's easy to state the problem. Not so easy to have a workable solution.



That's a piece of cake! Is that river in the US? Then the fence cuts off their supply. Is it in Mexico? Then cuts off our side.

<font color="red">I'm pretty sure it we each own half of it. Oh and please tell me you weren't being serious, I mean we learn that in elementary school. </font>

There's plenty of money there once this new president is in place and brings back the TRILLIONS of tax dollars being "spent" in Iraq and other places we've invaded, every month. There's also TRILLIONS being stolen from US funds so let's STOP sending money over there, IMMEDIATELY!!

Money was already earmarked to build this fence but it was taken again and sent to be wasted and/or stolen by thieves in Iraq.





I grew up in AZ and they didn't teach us the history behind each and every state. I bet there's thousands of things you don't know about my state either.

Mr. Bender, the ideal solution to the immigration problem is to enforce the laws currently on the books.



Except the ship sailed a very long time ago to enforce current laws.




That is the biggest crock ever! That statement is so untrue!

Basically, I'm really happy to be a part of organizations like NUMBERS USA and ALIPAC as these folks are the ones willing to do something about this problem, not just talk about it or debate it.

If we were talking about a million or even 2 million illegals, it would not be such a big deal. But we're dealing with 20 million ILLEGALS in 2008 and if amnesty passes, look out as that number will more than likely triple. We're trying to shove 10 pounds of poo into a 5 pound bag and that just doesn't work.

If you want to do something about this problem get active! Find an organization that stands for what you believe in and trying to solve this problem. It can't be solved overnight but it does start with the right leader. I hope you all choose the one with the most palatable solution.

Hey gotcha,

A couple of things to think about. First, we were involved in conflicts during the Clinton Admin, in fact, since WWII we have been almost continually involved in one type of conflict or another. Doesn't matter whether it's a Dem Or a GOP.

Second, as Tony already stated, the media isn't liberal, they love a war, sells newspapers.

Third, here's a fun one for ya, look at the number of wounded during the two admins. Bush wins there hands down. What you're seeing is the introduction of body armor (sp?) to our troops. A better comparison might be to see how many of our troops were committed to conflict or how many were shot or hit with shrapnel per say.

Here's an even better statistic for you. How many people died in conflict areas where we started the conflict? Can you say over a million vs., I don't know a few (was Grenada Clinton's, Panama? I don't remember but I know there's no comparison).

BTW Player, not that this really answers your question but what I was watching prior to the war was knight ridder. They pointed out that the reasons for the war were a lie. They got slammed and ultimately driven out of business (they were one of the most storied news organizations in our history, but their readership was primarily middle class, places like Pittsburgh).

The fact is that the mainstream news orgs in this country are garbage. They are serving us poorly or not at all.

Mr. Bender, the ideal solution to the immigration problem is to enforce the laws currently on the books.



Except the ship sailed a very long time ago to enforce current laws.




That is the biggest crock ever! That statement is so untrue!




Why wasn't it a big issue when it was 2 million illegals? You don't go from 0 to 20 million overnight, or even over a couple of years. But only recently it's a problem? Please.

Logistically speaking, 20 million illegals vs how many ICE agents? (Without looking I'd guess it's 1000 to 1). Even adding in local authorities, you're going to be short people to handle the task. Unless you don't want law enforcement handling their everyday duties.

Mr. Bender, the ideal solution to the immigration problem is to enforce the laws currently on the books.



Except the ship sailed a very long time ago to enforce current laws. And police departments (down here at least) are so understaffed that they have trouble filling their patrol rosters each day, so asking them to ID everybody (which smacks a little of Soviet Russia, IMO) isn't going to happen.

Again, you can't put the toothpaste back into the tube. Well, you can but it costs a lot more versus just going out and buying a new tube.



Who said anything about IDing everyone. If the Police pull someone over for speeding and they don't have a DL, then they can be arrested. In theory, if someone works for cash and is a law biting person, they may never be deported.

and Just so you know, in Texas, you can't get a DL if you are illegal.

Wow, you guys never leave this topic. Immigration. Immigration. Immigration. Immigration. Round up the mexicans. Imprison the employers. Build the wall. Build the wall. Build that wall. Quick, build that freakin wall, they're coming.

Carl Rove struck paydirt with this one. His mob is growing every day.

To TBender:

I say let them come to your neighborhood and take your job and rob your home and rape your children....THEN you might wake up and smell some coffee! This article is for YOU and anyone else who is PRO AMNESTY:

http://www.city-journal.org/html/14_1_the_illegal_alien.html

To TBender:

I say let them come to your neighborhood and take your job and rob your home and rape your children....THEN you might wake up and smell some coffee!




So only illegals are capable of theft and rape? :confused:

One reason is that immigration is a big issue James.

In Texas, it is the biggest issue. Same with other border states (spelled it right for Bender)

Fact is, the most important issue is not being addressed by any of the candidates (well except one) and that is the economic issue.

The dollar has been dropping. Inflation is very high. And the FED is just making it worse. If we are not careful, we could go into another depression like the Great Depression of the 1930's. If you study the Great Depression, you will realize it was brought on by the Fed trying to mess with the economy.

Let the market correct itself. Yes, people will loose money, but that is a risk they took upon themselves. Why should we be bailing out the BANKS on these bad loans. That is a business problem. If you make poor choices in your business, you will go out of business.

But NO, in America, you ask the government to bail you out. Specially if you have lots of money.

I could keep going on, but I have work to do today

James, the sad thing is I think Bryan and Michelle actually believe what they're saying...

And Bryan, the term is law abiding.

And just so you know, my sister was a police officer for 5 years -- she just quit to start grad school. I'm well aware of Texas law and the difficulties and logistics of enforcing it.

Why are you so passionate about protecting people that are breaking the law then?

Just a note. If the people who are so passionate about immigration would simply focus on a subissue, namely one where common ground might be possible, things might actually get done. Reading that article referenced above, why not focus strictly on the difficulty in apprehending and deporting known felons?

The other constant stuff about building a wall; they are taking our jobs; they don't speak english; they are leeches; they root for Mexico in a US-Mexico soccer match; we should round em all up; we should put employers in jail; if we are to entertain making them legal, we must punish them first. All these things make me believe that we are simply witnessing the latest political attempt to find a scapegoat for whatever ills us. It is no coincidence that it is becoming the biggest "issue" of the election. Play on people's hatreds, that will win us an election.

Why are you so passionate about protecting people that are breaking the law then?



I'm not protecting anyone. I'm just injecting reality into this discussion.

Fact is, while they are breaking the law by where they choose to exist, it hasn't been an issue until recently. Apparently 20 million is the number when people start to realize a problem might exist. And people like Bryan, Michelle, and you don't quite comprehend how large of a number that is and how impossible it would be to send them all back now.

It makes much more sense to tighten up the borders (sans fence) and then provide amnesty to those already here with a road to full citizenship that is easier than the current process.


Questions: Do any of you speed while driving? Have any of you ever made a lane change or turn without signalling? Have any of you done anything that you knew was in violation of the laws of that jurisdiction? Did you run to the police station to admit your crime?

Spoken like the old wise man you are.

Why are you so passionate about protecting people that are breaking the law then?



I'm not protecting anyone. I'm just injecting reality into this discussion. <font color="red">Your reality = protection!
Why can't you just admit it? </font>


Fact is, while they are breaking the law by where they choose to exist, it hasn't been an issue until recently.

<font color="red">I beg to differ. This has been an issue here since the 80's. It's only coming to light RECENTLY because some of us are taking the chance of being called a racist to stand up for THIS COUNTRY. It's a chance I'm willing to take because anyone who knows me knows I am not a racist. </font>


Apparently 20 million is the number when people start to realize a problem might exist. And people like Bryan, Michelle, and you don't quite comprehend how large of a number that is and how impossible it would be to send them all back now.

<font color="red">It will be tough, yes, but NOT IMPOSSIBLE. Just because you gave up on this country, doesn't mean the rest of us have to! </font>

It makes much more sense to tighten up the borders (sans fence) and then provide amnesty to those already here with a road to full citizenship that is easier than the current process.

<font color="red">And everyone in Mexico will hear about this wonderful plan and bring on all of their relatives and next thing you know, the entire country is over here! I don't get why you can't see that? Dangle a carrot and they tell all their friends and family about said carrot! </font>


Questions: Do any of you speed while driving? Have any of you ever made a lane change or turn without signalling? Have any of you done anything that you knew was in violation of the laws of that jurisdiction? Did you run to the police station to admit your crime?

<font color="red">Those are NOT felonies. We're talking about FELONS here. </font>

What do you think Mexicans would do if 20 million Americans invaded their country ILLEGALLY, waved our flag OVER theirs, DEMANDED free medical care and education and REFUSED to learn their language??? You think they would just sit back and say, Sure, ok, Come on over! We'll give you all you ask AND pay for it just because we're nice guys or because our bible tells us to. Hon, I don't think so! They'd be just as mad too!

To TBender:

I say let them come to your neighborhood and take your job and rob your home and rape your children....THEN you might wake up and smell some coffee!




So only illegals are capable of theft and rape? :confused:



Don't be stupid. Ya know what, when your job gets taken by an illegal alien felon, I'm going to be the first one to LMAO. So please let me know when that happens, k?

snap!

To TBender:

I say let them come to your neighborhood and take your job and rob your home and rape your children....THEN you might wake up and smell some coffee!




So only illegals are capable of theft and rape? :confused:



Don't be stupid. Ya know what, when your job gets taken by an illegal alien felon, I'm going to be the first one to LMAO. So please let me know when that happens, k?



Get it through your head...Americans DO NOT WANT those jobs! :( As a matter of fact most can't do those jobs. :confused:


The issue of immigration is one of consequenses that cannot be ignored, those with viewpoints like Michelle and Pizza are too close minded and not realistic. That is why Presidential hopefuls that share your stance are not getting elected. :p

To TBender:

I say let them come to your neighborhood and take your job and rob your home and rape your children....THEN you might wake up and smell some coffee!




So only illegals are capable of theft and rape? :confused:



Don't be stupid. Ya know what, when your job gets taken by an illegal alien felon, I'm going to be the first one to LMAO. So please let me know when that happens, k?



Get it through your head...Americans DO NOT WANT those jobs! :( As a matter of fact most can't do those jobs. :confused:


The issue of immigration is one of consequenses that cannot be ignored, those with viewpoints like Michelle and Pizza are too close minded and not realistic. That is why Presidential hopefuls that share your stance are not getting elected. :p



I know 2 people right now today who are unemployed who would GLADLY take ANY job right now! So that statement is false and that's why I can't get it in my head.

It is NOT MY JOB to figure out the logistics of all this mess that has been created. It is the job of Congress and the President. MY JOB is to elect the leader I feel will most likely put an end to this madness.

I can only surmise why you've given up on YOUR COUNTRY - you must be one of the folks hiring illegals to clean your house, mow your lawn, etc. you know, all those jobs AMERICANS WON'T DO. When this country turns into the toilet Mexico is, maybe then you'll be happy and can sit back and pat yourself on the back. good job!!

Well, my last american citizen quit on me the other day. I went from my 7 year high of 4 last month to zero this month. And you guessed it...every one of them quit on me without notice. The last one walked out in the middle of his shift on our biggest day of the year...Valentine's Day.

As stated earlier, I have hired EVERY legal citizen that has ever applied to work in my kitchen. Not on of them has lasted longer than 2 months and most don't last longer than 2 days. It is the same scenario in the contruction field, Americans cannot and will not do those types of jobs.


In my restaurant alone if we were to rid ourselves of the 25 illegal immigrants working in our kitchen the other 75 front of house employees (Americans of course) would all be out of a job.

Those are the consequences that I speak of that organizations like alipac tend to overlook. :confused:

Well, my last american citizen quit on me the other day. I went from my 7 year high of 4 last month to zero this month. And you guessed it...every one of them quit on me without notice. The last one walked out in the middle of his shift on our biggest day of the year...Valentine's Day.


Obviously your place of business is a terrible place to work where they're probably being paid minimum wage and being yelled at. How about treating people better and paying them what they deserve and they just might stick around? I suppose you're also saying that NO ILLEGAL worker has EVER walked out on you as well? I find that hard to believe.


As stated earlier, I have hired EVERY legal citizen that has ever applied to work in my kitchen. Not on of them has lasted longer than 2 months and most don't last longer than 2 days. It is the same scenario in the contruction field, Americans cannot and will not do those types of jobs.


Again, I say pay them well and treat them well and they'll probably stick around!!!!


In my restaurant alone if we were to rid ourselves of the 25 illegal immigrants working in our kitchen the other 75 front of house employees (Americans of course) would all be out of a job.

Those are the consequences that I speak of that organizations like alipac tend to overlook. :confused:

I will have you know that I have to pay the american on average 30% more than the mexicans to start out. I start out paying Americans where it took the mexicans years to earn their wage. I start paying Americans well over double the minimum wage. I have never yelled at them, treated them unfairly, or provided a hostile work environment in any way. I take personal offense to your assertations. If I paid them what they deserve it would be about 2 dollars less per hour.

So put that in your pipe and smoke it! :o

You are ignoring the facts...Americans do not want these jobs and cannot do them. In this situation no illegals would put triple the amount of innocent citizens out of work. Most of whom are trying to raise a family. :(

I will have you know that I have to pay the american on average 30% more than the mexicans to start out. I start out paying Americans where it took the mexicans years to earn their wage.

There it is in writing. You too are exploiting the Mexicans! YOU are the reason for this problem! Shame on you!

I start paying Americans well over double the minimum wage. I have never yelled at them, treated them unfairly, or provided a hostile work environment in any way. I take personal offense to your assertations. If I paid them what they deserve it would be about 2 dollars less per hour.


IF your workers are treated fairly AND paid a handsome salary, then WHY are they leaving? Who in their right mind would leave a dream job like that, you know, where they're paid an excellent salary AND treatd like kings/queens?


So put that in your pipe and smoke it! :o

<font color="red">That's illegal too, in your state. ;) </font>


You are ignoring the facts...Americans do not want these jobs and cannot do them. <font color="black">"Cannot" do them? What are we talking here, brain surgery? or washing dishes. I beg to differ that every American CAN wash dishes. The question is, do they want to do it for YOU or someone else? I'm sure the folks who walked out on you did not change careers, just place of employment. </font>

In this situation no illegals would put triple the amount of innocent citizens out of work. Most of whom are trying to raise a family. :(



YOU are breaking the law and contributing to this mess we're all in. You dangled that carrot and boom here they come. IF ONE CAN'T FIND A WAY TO DO BUSINESS LEGALLY, THEN ONE SHOULD NOT BE IN BUSINESS FOR ONE'S SELF!

The issue of immigration is one of consequenses that cannot be ignored, those with viewpoints like Michelle and Pizza are too close minded and not realistic. That is why Presidential hopefuls that share your stance are not getting elected.



Dang it, if I were not so busy I could really make my case.

I have never said to go out and round them up.

I said we need to make it harder for them to come here, find jobs, drive legally, find places to live and not give them government handouts.

Making it harder to come here is boarder fences in areas of high crossover. I would rate this as least important issue.

No Government hand outs - this is not as big a problem as some make it out to be. Most Illegal aliens do not file for anything because they don't want to attract attention. However there are several government programs they can and do take advantage of. Hospitalization and school are two that the courts have ruled we must give them.

No Drivers Licenses for illegals. Why legitimize someone who broke the law. I put this one near the top. A police department can then arrest someone for driving without a license and if they are unable to identify themselves, turn them over to ICE for deportation. And no, it is not as easy as that, but that is the basics.

No leasing to illegal aliens. Another actually easy thing to do. Several cities have already passed ordnances like these. Most Apartments will not rent to you if you owe another apartment complex money, but they will rent to you if you have no id's... That just flat out puzzles me.

No legal jobs. Enforce laws on employers. It really is not that hard. ICE does it some, but does not do much other than deport those that do not have papers. As a legitimate business owner, it is a 1000 fine for each I-9 that I do not have filled out for an employee. The I-9 requires me to either see a green card or both a state issued ID and SS card. [could also be used in the lease agreement issue]

I would rather ICE concentrate on those that hire illegals than on the illegals themselves.

Oh, and one thing our Federal Government needs to do is stop the Anchor Baby problem. To me this is the 2nd biggest problem.

NO AMNESTY is how it is written in the Texas GOP platform, I agree 1000 percent with this. As I have stated before, these people need to return to there country of origin and apply to move here legally.

If these things are done, we could increase our numbers of work and immigration visas. This would bring these people here to work those jobs YOU are to lazy to perform.

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I support that VET 100 percent.

You just don't get it. Americans do not want these jobs. Americans cannot do these jobs.


Keep on living is your own little world where real life scenarios do not exist. My point is that there are consequences and people like you choose to ignore them.


The fact remians...Americans do not want those jobs...deporting all illegals will put more americans out of work.

To quote Ron Paul �I don�t think the problem of illegal immigration will ever be solved until we have a healthy, thriving economy.�


You cannot blame me for that one. Instead blame your lazy unemployed friends who wont go out and get a job.


I am done with you...why don't you go complain about paying taxes or something else that is counterproductive.

Thanks for the Ron Paul quote, I was going to point that out that this is really an economic issue. We are using immigration as a scape goat. That is why I mentioned the LEGAL immigration visas should be increased.

But the argument that illegals are the only one that are willing to do the work is false. If you are hungry, any work is better than no work. You could blame the welfare state for that one.

Bryan, how much $ do you start your dishwashers out at?

Currently I start my Drivers at 5.25 per hour [they currently get 1.32 per delivery for gas/auto]
Inside at 5.85 per hour
Managers at 7.50 per hour

This is subject to change, again. I tried to pay the drivers more per hour and I nearly went out of business. The last 2 drivers I hired were hired at 5.25.

I do less than 500K per year and am exempt from minimum wage laws.

Currently I have
Me [475 per week]
an Asst Manager [8.60]
2nd asst manager/inside person [7.60]
7 drivers [5.25 to 6.75]

I have been working 80 hours per week, my other 2 inside guys work 30-45 hours each.

My drivers work anywhere from 6 to 50 hours per week.

And no, I do not pay overtime anymore.

BTW, my ending financial statement showed I lost just over 24K last year.

Next subject.

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You go Lou Dobbs

Trust me Lou, we are saying ''Don't Mess With Texas''
Impeach Gov. Perry (http://impeachperry.indytexans.org/)
and yes, I signed the petition

These are yes and now questions on the Republican ballot.


REFERENDUM 1
Federal, state, and local officials should be required to enforce U.S. immigration laws in order to secure our boarders.

REFERENDUM 2
The Texas Legislature should make it a priority to protect the integrity of our election process by enacting legislation that requires voters to provide valid photo identification in order to cash a ballot in any and all elections conducted in the State of Texas

REFERENDUM 3
Every governmental body in Texas should be required to limit any annual increase in its budget and spending to the combined increase of population and inflation unless it first get voter approval to exceed the allowed annual growth or in the case of an official state of emergency.



I will vote a strong YES to the first two and expect them to both pass. The 3rd one I am mixed on. I will probably vote no.

Don't be stupid. Ya know what, when your job gets taken by an illegal alien felon, I'm going to be the first one to LMAO. So please let me know when that happens, k?



Don't hold your breath waiting to laugh. My job isn't on the same level as the jobs that the overwhelming majority of these people hold. I don't wash dishes or build roads or pick vegetables.

Questions: Do any of you speed while driving? Have any of you ever made a lane change or turn without signalling? Have any of you done anything that you knew was in violation of the laws of that jurisdiction? Did you run to the police station to admit your crime?

<font color="red">Those are NOT felonies. We're talking about FELONS here. </font>



So, if existing on the wrong side of an arbitrary line was a misdemeanor, would you be as upset? I've never seen someone killed just because an illegal immigrant existed, yet I've had friends killed due to people committing misdemeanors.



<font color="red">What do you think Mexicans would do if 20 million Americans invaded their country ILLEGALLY, waved our flag OVER theirs, DEMANDED free medical care and education and REFUSED to learn their language??? You think they would just sit back and say, Sure, ok, Come on over! We'll give you all you ask AND pay for it just because we're nice guys or because our bible tells us to. Hon, I don't think so! They'd be just as mad too! </font>



It wouldn't happen. Unless you are completely switching the two sides, then I'd suspect that the Mexican government would do the same as the US government currently does. Making a lot of noise, but quietly thanking them for keeping the economy running below costs.

Don't be stupid. Ya know what, when your job gets taken by an illegal alien felon, I'm going to be the first one to LMAO. So please let me know when that happens, k?





Don't hold your breath waiting to laugh. My job isn't on the same level as the jobs that the overwhelming majority of these people hold. I don't wash dishes or build roads or pick vegetables.



I no longer need a job like this either but when I was in school that is the only kind of job I ever had construction and Landscaping both of these fields I worked in until I graduated so don�t give me that BS about "not wanting to or able to" Just because Americans don�t choose these as careers as much as illegal immigrants does not mean they are not jobs that would be filled at the drop of a hat given the opportunity!

Big E... just because you worked those jobs when you were young doensn't mean that other will. Society has changed and America's work ethic is in the toilet with the younger generations.

I have proven with my scenerio that Americans do not want mexican jobs..heck they cannot even perform the job that the mexicans do. All this while getting paid more than the mexicans for doing shotty work.

You want Americans in those jobs? Fixing welfare would be a start.

Jake's dead on about public perception as well.

That is why I mentioned the LEGAL immigration visas should be increased.



Bad idea.....and the numbers prove it.

If anyone interested in the immigrant discussion has not watched these two video clips....you should. Combined, the two videos last about 13 minutes. The information is powerful and eye-opening to say the least. We should never forget the decisions made today will greatly affect the lives of our children, our children's children, etc.


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Immigration By the Numbers ~ Part 1

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Immigration By the Numbers ~ Part 2

Warning.....the numbers can be quite disturbing.

You can post all of the statitics you want but until you come up with a viable solution its like peeing in the wind.

Ridding the US of all illegal immigrants will destroy our economy which is already in a downward spiral.

The two video clips posted above do not pertain to illegal immigration, rather our current "legal" immigration policy. The presenter in the video, Roy Beck, does provide a viable solution....again, in reference to the current US immigration policy.

For interested viewers, if the two video clips do not load properly, simply visit YouTube and search "Immigration by the Numbers".

Big E... just because you worked those jobs when you were young doensn't mean that other will. Society has changed and America's work ethic is in the toilet with the younger generations.

I have proven with my scenerio that Americans do not want mexican jobs..heck they cannot even perform the job that the mexicans do. All this while getting paid more than the mexicans for doing shotty work.



I will agree about the work ethic thing amongst young people! I lived in a tent as a kid and have had nothing given to me, maybe that�s where I got my work ethic! I do think there are other thing that need to be done than blame the illegal like fixing welfare and instilling a good work ethic in kids instead of teaching them to get fat and lazy!

You want Americans in those jobs? Fixing welfare would be a start.


Great, we can agree on that Bender. I have always felt that welfare recipient's should do something to get there cash, even if it was community service. What about if people on welfare had to do some community service to receive there welfare check.

Here is my proposal.

8 hours of community service per week of welfare check to be done within 1 years of that week. If the community service is not done, they would either a] have to pay a fine of say 1/4th of the welfare check back or b] no longer able to receive welfare until it is done or the fine paid.

That would get some of these people off there butts.

I have known too many people who did not get jobs because they were either receiving welfare or unemployment checks. [a lot of those were Disc Golfers]

I got 2 things for you to read


We pay for bridges and harbors throughout the world and neglect our own. If we feel compulsion to spend and waste money, it would make more sense at least to waste it at home. We build highways around the world, raise gasoline taxes here, and routinely dodge potholes on our own highways.

Why do we cut funding for day care centers and Head Start programs before cutting aid to the Communists, Socialists, and international bankers?

A substantial number of businessmen demand the rigors of the free market for their competitors, and socialism/fascism for themselves.

Economic interventionism, a philosophy in itself and not a compromise with anything, is the cause of all these contradictions in the economy. Rejection of government planning, controlled by the powerful special interests, at the expense of the general welfare is necessary, and even inevitable, for that system will fall under its own weight. The question that remains is whether or not it will be replaced with a precise philosophy of the free market, rejecting all special interests and fiat money, or with a philosophy of socialism. The choice when the time comes should not be difficult, but freedom lovers have no reason for complacency or optimism.



Now the kicker, this is from a speech by Ron Paul on Sept. 19, 1984

America comes second (http://michellemalkin.com/2006/03/29/the-american-flag-comes-second/)

Well I guess this is okay as well :confused:

Congress chose to ignore Congressman Paul and passed the Sarbanes-Oxley Act. Dr. Paul was the only member of the House Financial Services Committee to oppose this bill, and one of only three members to vote against final passage.

However, it did not take long for Dr. Paul�s warnings about the unintended consequences of this law to be proven correct. In 2000, nine out of every 10 dollars raised by foreign companies were raised in the United States. In 2005, nine of the 10 largest public stock offerings were not registered in the United States, and, of the largest 25 global offerings, only one took place in the US.

According to some estimates, Sarbanes-Oxley has cost the very investors the law claims to protect at least $1.4 trillion, money that cannot be used to create new jobs for American workers and innovative new products for American consumers.

Seeing the damage done by Sarbanes-Oxley, Congressman Paul knew he had to act. He studied the ways Sarbanes-Oxley was harming the economy and determined the most important priority was to repeal Section 404, which imposed such a strict standard of liability on American corporations that research showed �a CEO possibly could be found liable for not using the latest version of Windows! Financial analysts have identified Section 404 as the major reason why American corporations are hoarding cash instead of investing it in new ventures.�

Dr. Paul introduced legislation to repeal Section 404, using the legislation as a platform to continue educating his colleagues. Eventually, in no small part due to Congressman Paul�s efforts, even many of Sarbanes-Oxley�s biggest cheerleaders came to admit the law was heavily flawed.



I have also read and need to post some of the things RP said back in the 70's about Iran and terrorism. He has been proven right about that too.

This is the thread about the next president. Why are we still talking about Ron Paul? :p

This is the thread about the next president. Why are we still talking about Ron Paul? :p



Because even though he will not be the next president [there is a .001 percent chance] his policies and ideas are correct.